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Gentile
May 8th 2008, 05:35 PM
Romans 4:2 For is abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before GOD.

What exactly are the works paul is talking about?

I really romans 4,5,&6 one of my favorites. I know Paul is talking about being "justified by faith but not by law" What law(s) is Paul exactly talking about as well?

JordanW
May 8th 2008, 05:39 PM
I think he is talking about all the work Abraham did throughout his lifetime, also when he says "not under the law" he means that you are justified by the faith you have in Christ and not under like the Ten Commandments I believe.

Reynolds357
May 8th 2008, 06:55 PM
Romans 4:2 For is abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before GOD.

What exactly are the works paul is talking about?

I really romans 4,5,&6 one of my favorites. I know Paul is talking about being "justified by faith but not by law" What law(s) is Paul exactly talking about as well?

The Scripture does not say Abraham was justified by works. It says "For If Abraham were justified by works." Abraham was not justified by works, he was justified by faith. Look at verse 3. Abraham was justified by faith.

th1bill
May 8th 2008, 07:10 PM
The Scripture does not say Abraham was justified by works. It says "For If Abraham were justified by works." Abraham was not justified by works, he was justified by faith. Look at verse 3. Abraham was justified by faith.
Great answer! Context is always so very important.

2 Peter 2:20
May 8th 2008, 08:00 PM
The Scripture does not say Abraham was justified by works. It says "For If Abraham were justified by works." Abraham was not justified by works, he was justified by faith. Look at verse 3. Abraham was justified by faith.

Yes, we can find the same in Hebrews 11.

coldfire136
May 8th 2008, 08:23 PM
Romans has to be read as a whole book. It is very difficult to discern with any certainty anything that Paul is discussing because we are removed from the social, political, and religious context. The most common answer that I've heard is that Paul is talking about circumcision and other types of covental nomism that define Jews by ritual.

Teke
May 9th 2008, 03:43 PM
Romans 4:2 For is abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before GOD.

What exactly are the works paul is talking about?

I really romans 4,5,&6 one of my favorites. I know Paul is talking about being "justified by faith but not by law" What law(s) is Paul exactly talking about as well?

The law Paul speaks of is in relation to physical descent. Abraham's faith is what made him righteous. He was living by faith when he was 75 and wasn't circumcised until he was 99 yrs old. He was the father of Gentiles who live by faith before he became the father of faithful Jews.

Alaska
May 12th 2008, 03:24 AM
Christians are not justified by faith alone. There must be the fruit of that faith manifested as things the Christians does (actions/works).
Even initially, when a person accepts Jesus, there must be the acceptance of repentance, which is a work. There must be the acceptance of the understanding that Christ's death was a substitute death for themselves individually, which is the same as saying they must believe that Jesus died for them. Believing is regarded as a work.
Justified means being right with God. Unless a person has accepted God's means of forgiveness through accepting the correct understanding of Jesus' death for them then they are not justified; they are not right with God.
Hence, taking Rom. 4 to mean that a Christian's eternal destiny is not in any way determined by what he does as a Christian is blasphemous.
Rom. 8 declares to Christians that if they live after the flesh they shall die. Eternal life is dependent on walking after the Spirit, which is a work, but not of themselves lest they should boast, for it is His Spirit working in true believers that enables them to abstain from fleshly lusts.
Rom. 4 is comparing the old system with the new. Both systems require works. Paul is saying that Abraham was not justified by the old system's works, (Moses' system).
The NT declares that Abraham was in fact justified or had a right standing with God in His time in the same manner that a Christian today is justified; by works and faith. Not by faith alone.

BrckBrln
May 12th 2008, 03:33 AM
Christians are not justified by faith alone. There must be the fruit of that faith manifested as things the Christians does (actions/works).
Even initially, when a person accepts Jesus, there must be the acceptance of repentance, which is a work. There must be the acceptance of the understanding that Christ's death was a substitute death for themselves individually, which is the same as saying they must believe that Jesus died for them. Believing is regarded as a work.
Justified means being right with God. Unless a person has accepted God's means of forgiveness through accepting the correct understanding of Jesus' death for them then they are not justified; they are not right with God.
Hence, taking Rom. 4 to mean that a Christian's eternal destiny is not in any way determined by what he does as a Christian is blasphemous.
Rom. 8 declares to Christians that if they live after the flesh they shall die. Eternal life is dependent on walking after the Spirit, which is a work, but not of themselves lest they should boast, for it is His Spirit working in true believers that enables them to abstain from fleshly lusts.
Rom. 4 is comparing the old system with the new. Both systems require works. Paul is saying that Abraham was not justified by the old system's works, (Moses' system).
The NT declares that Abraham was in fact justified or had a right standing with God in His time in the same manner that a Christian today is justified; by works and faith. Not by faith alone.

To put it bluntly, you are wrong. We aren't saved by faith plus works we are saved by faith that produces works. It is the faith that Justifies us and the process of Sanctification is what brings out the good works. Don't confuse these two or make them one and the same. They are different but go hand in hand, meaning you can't have one without the other.

If somebody has faith then that faith will produce good works but it's the faith that saves you not the product of the faith, the good works.

losthorizon
May 12th 2008, 03:51 AM
The Scripture does not say Abraham was justified by works. It says "For If Abraham were justified by works." Abraham was not justified by works, he was justified by faith. Look at verse 3. Abraham was justified by faith.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? James 2:20-22 (KJV)Abraham was justified by obedient faith (faith + obedience) – a faith that obeyed God…”By faith Abraham…obeyed…”
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. Hebrews 11:8 (KJV)

Clydson
May 12th 2008, 10:50 PM
Romans 4:2 For is abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before GOD.

What exactly are the works paul is talking about?

I really romans 4,5,&6 one of my favorites. I know Paul is talking about being "justified by faith but not by law" What law(s) is Paul exactly talking about as well?
Greetings Gentile.

I have a lot to say in regard to your OP, but I'd rather keep it simple. To understand the works Paul is speaking to, consider verse 1 of the context;

Rom 4:1
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
NKJV

What is meant by "according to the flesh"? "According to the flesh" modifies "works" in verse 2. Thus, Paul is speaking to "works" "according to the flesh". These "works" do not justify men, but rather they provide for man to boast in them. These "works" are not the "works" referred to by James (James 2:22-24).

Now, consider this passage;

Gen 22:18
18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."
NKJV

Why is it written, "because you have obeyed"? Why not, "because you have believed"? Probably because they mean the same thing; "obedient faith."

As to your second question, what law is Paul speaking to? Well, he is not speaking to the Law of Moses, for Abraham was never amenable to it. In fact, he was justified before his circumcision, Romans 4:9-12. The law being discussed is the law of faith, Romans 3:27. And this law is given to both the circumcised and the uncircumcised, both Jew and Gentile.

Jake

Alaska
May 13th 2008, 04:23 AM
The works that James says we are justified by (along with the faith manifested by the NT) are different works than what Paul is referring to in Romans, which works do not justify.

Please read the above statement again.

These different works, (the ones that do justify and the ones that do not justify) can be illustrated by comparing the works of an unbeliever with the works of a believer.
Let's say both the believer and the unbeliever do not steal. The good work from both of them is that they do not steal, which is a righteous thing to do.
The unbeliever is not right with God (justified) for doing this righteous thing because he has not accepted the payment for his sins in Christ. His sins are still held against him.
The believer on the other hand because he has received forgiveness of sins through faith in and obedience to Jesus and has been changed from within by the power of regeneration by the Holy Ghost; to this person we can apply what James said as it pertains to believers; that a man is justified by works and faith. Our right standing with God (being justified) is not only by the faith that we hold but also by the works that that faith produces. How can a man claim to be right with God by faith and yet not do what that faith requires?
Do you see how that by works a Christian is justified and not by faith alone?
Paul's words are wrested as Peter said. In Romans and Galatians Paul is comparing the old system with the new system. For example the OT ordinance of physical circumcision, which is not required in the NT. A person can become circumcised and keep the moral obligations like not stealing yet they still have need of forgiveness through the only means provided for by God: Jesus.
A born-again Christian's obedience to the necessary things of the NT cannot be regarded as filthy rags. Obedience should rather be understood to be "The Lord Our righteousness". Christians are the body of Christ.
Could the righteousness seen in Jesus, full of grace and truth, be rightly called filthy rags while he walked in the flesh among men? I trow not. Then the righteousness performed by his body now cannot be called filthy rags but rather God in Christians, the hope of Glory. The blasphemy of calling obedience by Christians "filthy rags" must stop.

BrckBrln
May 13th 2008, 04:28 AM
The works that James says we are justified by (along with the faith manifested by the NT) are different works than what Paul is referring to in Romans, which works do not justify.

Please read the above statement again.

These different works, (the ones that do justify and the ones that do not justify) can be illustrated by comparing the works of an unbeliever with the works of a believer.
Let's say both the believer and the unbeliever do not steal. The good work from both of them is that they do steal, which is a righteous thing to do.
The unbeliever is not right with God (justified) for doing this righteous thing because he has not accepted the payment for his sins in Christ. His sins are still held against him.
The believer on the other hand because he has received forgiveness of sins through faith in and obedience to Jesus and has been changed from within by the power of regeneration by the Holy Ghost; to this person we can apply what James said as it pertains to believers; that a man is justified by works and faith. Our right standing with God (being justified) is not only by the faith that we hold but also by the works that that faith produces. How can a man claim to be right with God by faith and yet not do what that faith requires?
Do you see how that by works a Christian is justified and not by faith alone?
Paul's words are wrested as Peter said. In Romans and Galatians Paul is comparing the old system with the new system. For example the OT ordinance of physical circumcision, which is not required in the NT. A person can become circumcised and keep the moral obligations like not stealing yet they still have need of forgiveness through the only means provided for by God: Jesus.
A born-again Christian's obedience to the necessary things of the NT cannot be regarded as filthy rags. Obedience should rather be understood to be "The Lord Our righteousness". Christians are the body of Christ.
Could the righteousness seen in Jesus, full of grace and truth, be rightly called filthy rags while he walked in the flesh among men? I trow not. Then the righteousness performed by his body now cannot be called filthy rags but rather God in Christians, the hope of Glory. The blasphemy of calling obedience by Christians "filthy rags" must stop.

Thanks for clarifying this up. You are right but it's important to stress that once you have the faith then you are sealed regardless of the works this faith produces. If the faith is true faith then it will produce good works and that's how people can tell if a person is saved. It's two sides of the same coin, it's cause and effect. The cause saves you not the effects that follow.

Alaska
May 13th 2008, 04:49 AM
By works a man (a Christian) is justified and not by faith alone.

"The cause saves you not the effects that follow"
Is that like telling a soldier that it is his gun that keeps him alive and not the bullets?
I think we should simply accept the good counsel of the word and not split things up that cannot be split. Justification for the Christian is by faith and works as the Word declares.
Two sides of the same coin is fitting, yet you declare in a sense that when buying something with that coin only one side is paying.

BrckBrln
May 13th 2008, 05:06 AM
By works a man (a Christian) is justified and not by faith alone.

"The cause saves you not the effects that follow"
Is that like telling a soldier that it is his gun that keeps him alive and not the bullets?
I think we should simply accept the good counsel of the word and not split things up that cannot be split. Justification for the Christian is by faith and works as the Word declares.
Two sides of the same coin is fitting, yet you declare in a sense that when buying something with that coin only one side is paying.

Well now you are just confusing me. What you are saying here is just wrong. It seems you are saying that faith is not enough to be saved and that one must perform good works to be saved. Is this what you believe? If this is true then what constitutes the good works and how many must be done to guarantee salvation?

It seems you believe salvation is a process and not an instant declaration from God. If you believe this then you are joining Justification and Sanctification together. They are different but they go hand in hand. They are separate things but you can't have one without the other. When somebody has faith in Christ then he is declared Justified by God and his entrance into heaven is sealed. If that person died an hour later then he would enter heaven. When one is justified then the Holy Spirit dwells the believer and begins the process of Sanctification that will only end when the person dies and is glorified in heaven. Sanctification always comes after Justification, it isn't joined with it so that you make salvation a process.

So please, if you would, clarify your view more. When a person has faith in Christ, according to you, are they saved? Even if they haven't had the chance to perform a good work? If not, then how many good works must they do to be guaranteed entrance into heaven?

Alaska
May 14th 2008, 01:53 AM
Well now you are just confusing me. What you are saying here is just wrong. It seems you are saying that faith is not enough to be saved and that one must perform good works to be saved. Is this what you believe? If this is true then what constitutes the good works and how many must be done to guarantee salvation?

It seems you believe salvation is a process and not an instant declaration from God. If you believe this then you are joining Justification and Sanctification together. They are different but they go hand in hand. They are separate things but you can't have one without the other. When somebody has faith in Christ then he is declared Justified by God and his entrance into heaven is sealed. If that person died an hour later then he would enter heaven. When one is justified then the Holy Spirit dwells the believer and begins the process of Sanctification that will only end when the person dies and is glorified in heaven. Sanctification always comes after Justification, it isn't joined with it so that you make salvation a process.

So please, if you would, clarify your view more. When a person has faith in Christ, according to you, are they saved? Even if they haven't had the chance to perform a good work? If not, then how many good works must they do to be guaranteed entrance into heaven?


Take the above analogy of the gun and bullets. Let's say a sargeant in the military keeps emphasizing the need of having your gun by your side at all times. It is understood, of course, that the bullets in the gun are necessary. He doesn't say necessarily, "keep your gun by your side and don't forget bullets".
When the NT makes reference to faith, this is inseparable from the works that go with faith. When Paul wrote of Christians being justified by faith and thereby having peace with God, it is understood that any believer he is speaking to who has peace with God had to do some work that is inseparable from faith in order to have attained to that place of peace.
Was there any Christian who read and agreed with him concerning having peace because of believing who had not repented? Many of those to whom he spake not only had repented as a result of faith but also were baptized and had received the Holy Ghost.
There is not a Christian anywhere who has peace with God who did not have to obey Jesus in order to get that peace. So even a brand new believer, over whom God declares, "you are justified by faith" also falls in the category that James refers to: justification is by both faith and works. It is impossible to have believed and not to have done something and yet be justified. Even praying is a work, a product of faith like repentance without which a man cannot be saved.
James, when stating that a Christian is justified by both faith and works is referring to Christian duty that a believers conscience should urge them to fulfill such as providing the needs of a destitute Christian. And that is the key to the answer to your question. God's Spirit works in the conscience of believers. After having been saved, it is necessary to maintain a good conscience. Abiding in salvation is necessary.
God will judge us individually. Like John exhorts, we should abide in him lest we be ashamed before him at his coming; even as the foolish virgins who were not prepared and were not allowed in. God has given us his Word and His Spirit that works in our consciences. We have an individual walk with the Lord. Hence Paul's exhortation to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
Do you have a genuine good conscience? You know that God is working on you and you are responding and are not in rebellion against him? If you do have a good conscience such as this then praise God, you are abiding in salvation.
We are warned that after having been saved, we can afterward be destroyed as a result of not walking worthy of that salvation: Even as the children of Israel who were saved from Egypt but who died. They did not obtain the promise for which they were saved due to their disobedience and rebellion.

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 01:58 AM
Take the above analogy of the gun and bullets. Let's say a sargeant in the military keeps emphasizing the need of having your gun by your side at all times. It is understood, of course, that the bullets in the gun are necessary. He doesn't say necessarily, "keep your gun by your side and don't forget bullets".
When the NT makes reference to faith, this is inseparable from the works that go with faith. When Paul wrote of Christians being justified by faith and thereby having peace with God, it is understood that any believer he is speaking to who has peace with God had to do some work that is inseparable from faith in order to have attained to that place of peace.
Was there any Christian who read and agreed with him concerning having peace because of believing who had not repented? Many of those to whom he spake not only had repented as a result of faith but also were baptized and had received the Holy Ghost.
There is not a Christian anywhere who has peace with God who did not have to obey Jesus in order to get that peace. So even a brand new believer, over whom God declares, "you are justified by faith" also falls in the category that James refers to: justification is by both faith and works. It is impossible to have believed and not to have done something and yet be justified. Even praying is a work, a product of faith like repentance without which a man cannot be saved.
James, when stating that a Christian is justified by both faith and works is referring to Christian duty that a believers conscience should urge them to fulfill such as providing the needs of a destitute Christian. And that is the key to the answer to your question. God's Spirit works in the conscience of believers. After having been saved, it is necessary to maintain a good conscience. Abiding in salvation is necessary.
God will judge us individually. Like John exhorts, we should abide in him lest we be ashamed before him at his coming; even as the foolish virgins who were not prepared and were not allowed in. God has given us his Word and His Spirit that works in our consciences. We have an individual walk with the Lord. Hence Paul's exhortation to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
Do you have a genuine good conscience? You know that God is working on you and you are responding and are not in rebellion against him? If you do have a good conscience such as this then praise God, you are abiding in salvation.
We are warned that after having been saved, we can afterward be destroyed as a result of not walking worthy of that salvation: Even as the children of Israel who were saved from Egypt but who died. They did not obtain the promise for which they were saved due to their disobedience and rebellion.

You didn't answer my crucial question. If a person is saved by faith and works then how many of these works must one do to be saved? I fully agree that faith will produce good works but we aren't saved by the product of our faith, we are saved because of our faith. And from your post I guess you believe that even having faith in Christ is a human work and that a person can lose their salvation. Is this what you believe?

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 02:00 AM
Well now you are just confusing me. What you are saying here is just wrong. It seems you are saying that faith is not enough to be saved and that one must perform good works to be saved.


Isn’t it true that one must have a faith that works through obedience to enter into the kindgom of God?
"Not everyone that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” Mt. 7:21

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 02:05 AM
Isn’t it true that one must have a faith that works through obedience to enter into the kindgom of God?
"Not everyone that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” Mt. 7:21

If you would read my posts then you see that I believe it is true that one must have a faith that works. However, the works don't save you, the faith does. The faith is a one time, instant, declaration by God that guarantees your place in heaven. If someone says that faith and works saves you then salvation is a process, which it clearly cannot be.

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 02:06 AM
If a person is saved by faith and works then how many of these works must one do to be saved?

One must do the works of God to be saved - right? In your theology isn’t "belief" a “work of God” that one "must do” in order to be saved?
“This is the work of God that you believe on him whom he has sent” (6:29)

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 02:08 AM
One must do the works of God to be saved - right? In your theology isn’t "belief" a “work of God” that one "must do” in order to be saved?

No! Salvation is not based on works. It is based on faith in Christ which isn't a work, it's a gift from God.

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 02:11 AM
If someone says that faith and works saves you then salvation is a process, which it clearly cannot be.
What did Paul mean when he wrote - “our salvation is nearer than when we first believed” (Romans 13:11)? Isn't there a sense in which salvation is both present and future?

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 02:13 AM
What did Paul mean when he wrote - “our salvation is nearer than when we first believed” (Romans 13:11)? Isn't there a sense in which salvation is both present and future?

So in your theology, one can never know if he's saved or not since it's a process that they must work out? Maybe Paul is talking about heaven or something, I don't know, but I do know that salvation is an instant event and not a drawn out process.

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 02:14 AM
No! Salvation is not based on works. It is based on faith in Christ which isn't a work, it's a gift from God.
Was Jesus wrong when He said - belief is a work - a work of God?

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 02:15 AM
Was Jesus wrong when He said - belief is a work - a work of God?

A work of God is not a work of a human. When I say salvation isn't based on works, I am talking about human works. God gives us our salvation as a blessed gift.

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 02:18 AM
So in your theology, one can never know if he's saved or not since it's a process that they must work out? Maybe Paul is talking about heaven or something, I don't know, but I do know that salvation is an instant event and not a drawn out process.
In NT theology one who is saved in the present can so sin in the future as to “fall from grace” and be “severed from Christ” thus forfeiting his/her salvation. The inspired writers of the NT were not Calvinists. ;)
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Gal 5:4)

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 02:20 AM
In NT theology one who is saved in the present can so sin in the future as to “fall from grace” and be “severed from Christ” thus forfeiting his/her salvation. The inspired writers of the NT were not Calvinists. ;)

I would beg to differ but that's a different issue. Let me throw my unanswered question back out there again. When can a person get saved? If faith isn't enough and works are necessary then how many works must one do to be saved?

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 02:22 AM
A work of God is not a work of a human. When I say salvation isn't based on works, I am talking about human works. God gives us our salvation as a blessed gift.
I am a human and I had to “do something” to be saved – I had to believe. God didn’t force me to believe – it was of my own volition that I believed He is who He claims to be. I repented of my sins – again something that I had to “do”. Without repentance I would still be lost. You appear to be confused on this matter.

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 02:26 AM
I am a human and I had to “do something” to be saved – I had to believe. God didn’t force me to believe – it was of my own volition that I believed He is who He claims to be. I repented of my sins – again something that I had to “do”. Without repentance I would still be lost. You appear to be confused on this matter.

These are inward doings though, I am talking about external doings. Salvation is not based on external doings.

Alaska
May 14th 2008, 02:29 AM
You didn't answer my crucial question. If a person is saved by faith and works then how many of these works must one do to be saved? I fully agree that faith will produce good works but we aren't saved by the product of our faith, we are saved because of our faith. And from your post I guess you believe that even having faith in Christ is a human work and that a person can lose their salvation. Is this what you believe?


You appear to disgree with James who declared as a matter of fact that a person is justified/saved by faith and works ; not by faith alone.
I did answer your question. It relates to abiding in Him and having a good conscience. How many good works? As many as are necessary to have a good conscience with regard to Jesus' words at any given situation from day to day. And if you realize you messed up a situation, then praise God for his working on us. Thank God, acknowledge your shortcoming, thereby returning to a good conscience, and expect God to continue to give you opportunities to obey him.
If a person declares to have faith and is thereby saved yet does not do what the faith requires, then it is like having a body without a spirit. It is dead. There is no salvation there. Read James 2 very carefully.
Faith and works cannot be separated any more than a body can be separated from its spirit. No spirit in a body means death. No works of faith means no salvation/justification.

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 02:29 AM
I would beg to differ but that's a different issue. Let me throw my unanswered question back out there again. When can a person get saved? If faith isn't enough and works are necessary then how many works must one do to be saved?
Answer: All the "work" that God requires -
“This is the work of God that you believe on him whom he has sent” ~ Jesus Christ

"Unless you repent you will all perish” ~ Jesus Christ

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. ~ Jesus Christ

"He that believes and is baptized shall be saved…" ~ Jesus Christ

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 02:31 AM
These are inward doings though, I am talking about external doings. Salvation is not based on external doings.
Are we then agreed that there are "things" one "must do" to be saved?

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 02:33 AM
Answer: All the "work" that God requires -
“This is the work of God that you believe on him whom he has sent” ~ Jesus Christ

"Unless you repent you will all perish” ~ Jesus Christ

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. ~ Jesus Christ

"He that believes and is baptized shall be saved…" ~ Jesus Christ


Once again, these are inward doings except for baptism which isn't required. Why don't you quote the second half of the verse and then try and harmonize the two?

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 02:33 AM
Are we then agreed that there are "things" one "must do" to be saved?

Not external things like baptism.

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 02:35 AM
You appear to disgree with James who declared as a matter of fact that a person is justified/saved by faith and works ; not by faith alone.
I did answer your question. It relates to abiding in Him and having a good conscience. How many good works? As many as are necessary to have a good conscience with regard to Jesus' words at any given situation from day to day. And if you realize you messed up a situation, then praise God for his working on us. Thank God, acknowledge your shortcoming, thereby returning to a good conscience, and expect God to continue to give you opportunities to obey him.
If a person declares to have faith and is thereby saved yet does not do what the faith requires, then it is like having a body without a spirit. It is dead. There is no salvation there. Read James 2 very carefully.
Faith and works cannot be separated any more than a body can be separated from its spirit. No spirit in a body means death. No works of faith means no salvation/justification.

I have read James 2 and I know what it is teaching. It is saying that faith without works is dead and that true faith will produce good works. However, taking the Bible as a whole, it becomes clear that the good work process is not what saves you, it's the faith part, the instant declaration by God.

Alaska
May 14th 2008, 02:36 AM
When Peter was asked what needed to be done to be saved he cited baptism which is an outward thing. But let's say losthorizen, after he repented, didn't go to the places he used to go to. Isn't the restraint to not physically go somewhere because of repentance an "outward thing"?

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 02:38 AM
Once again, these are inward doings except for baptism which isn't required. Why don't you quote the second half of the verse and then try and harmonize the two?
There is no lack of harmonization – Jesus plainly states the truth of the matter - both belief and baptism happen before salvation. He doesn’t say “he who believes and is not baptized shall be saved” – does He?

Brother Mark
May 14th 2008, 02:38 AM
When Peter was asked what needed to be done to be saved he cited baptism which is an outward thing. But let's say losthorizen, after he repented, didn't go to the places he used to go to. Isn't the restraint to not physically go somewhere because of repentance an "outward thing"?

Jesus said to clean up the inside of the cup first and the outside would follow. That's the point of James too. Real faith will result in real works. Faith first, works second.

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 02:39 AM
Not external things like baptism.
Then Jesus was wrong?

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 02:40 AM
There is no lack of harmonization – Jesus plainly states the truth of the matter - both belief and baptism happen before salvation. He doesn’t say “he who believes and is not baptized shall be saved” – does He?

I have been over this with you and my answer holds both parts of the verse to be true, your's only says the first half is true and the second half is just half the truth.

Brother Mark
May 14th 2008, 02:40 AM
Then Jesus was wrong?

Nah. Just misunderstood. John 3:16 is just as valid and doesn't even mention baptism. ;)

Handled any snakes lately? I think that follows the Mark 16 passage.

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 02:41 AM
Then Jesus was wrong?

No. Jesus never said external works are required for salvation.

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 02:48 AM
Nah. Just misunderstood. John 3:16 is just as valid and doesn't even mention baptism. ;)

So do we accept the full council of God or do we reject those parts we don’t like?

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 02:51 AM
So do we accept the full council of God or do we reject those parts we don’t like?

You are the one that's rejecting, or rather injecting. Do you not believe this to be true?

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

You obviously believe it is ourselves who saves us by doing works that you can boast about. That's not what Paul preaches.

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 02:55 AM
I have been over this with you and my answer holds both parts of the verse to be true, your's only says the first half is true and the second half is just half the truth.
The second clause simply implies one who does not believe will not be baptized. It certainly does not negate the truth that both belief and baptism precede "shall be saved" in the first clause.

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 03:00 AM
The second clause simply implies one who does not believe will not be baptized. It certainly does not negate the truth that both belief and baptism precede "shall be saved" in the first clause.

If you want to know the truth of the verse then go back to the baptism thread where it is. Why do you focus so much on that one verse?

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 03:05 AM
You are the one that's rejecting, or rather injecting. Do you not believe this to be true?

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

I believe every word written in that passage and it in no way contradicts what the Lord commanded in the Great Commission (right?) – “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.” Do you believe what Jesus commanded must be obeyed from the heart?


You obviously believe it is ourselves who saves us by doing works that you can boast about. That's not what Paul preaches.
Obviously you misrepresent what I believe. It is the blood of Jesus Christ that saves those who obey from the heart the doctrine once delivered. That doctrine delivered includes the command from God to be immersed in water – into His death (Rom 6). Am I damned for obeying from my heart the Lord’s command? Where is your logic?
But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered; and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness. (Romans 6:17-18 )

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 03:06 AM
If you want to know the truth of the verse then go back to the baptism thread where it is. Why do you focus so much on that one verse?
Because it is part of Holy Writ and it is true.:)

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 03:10 AM
I believe every word written in that passage and it in no way contradicts what the Lord commanded in the Great Commission (right?) – “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.” Do you believe what Jesus commanded must be obeyed from the heart?


Obviously you misrepresent what I believe. It is the blood of Jesus Christ that saves those who obey from the heart the doctrine once delivered. That doctrine delivered includes the command from God to be immersed in water – into His death (Rom 6). Am I damned for obeying from my heart the Lord’s command? Where is your logic?
But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered; and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness. (Romans 6:17-18 )

You obviously don't believe every word of Ephesians 2 as you are adding baptism to salvation. Baptism is a work and Paul says we aren't saved by works. You focus on one, or only a few, verses to get you point across.

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 03:11 AM
Because it is part of Holy Writ and it is true.:)

Yes, you are right when you say that every part of that verse is true. You just don't understand it and refuse to harmonize it with other true verses.

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 03:27 AM
You obviously don't believe every word of Ephesians 2 as you are adding baptism to salvation. Baptism is a work and Paul says we aren't saved by works. You focus on one, or only a few, verses to get you point across.
I believe evey word in the Ephesian passage but you misunderstand baptism and its role in God's plan. It was designed, instituted and commanded by God as the ordinance that places the believer “into Christ Jesus” – “all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.” It is therefore God’s own work and it is a command that man submits to from the heart - as Martin Luther correctly wrote about baptism,
“…here stand God's commandment and institution, lest we doubt that Baptism is divine, not devised nor invented by men... For to be baptized in the name of God is to be baptized not by men, but by God Himself. Therefore although it is performed by human hands, it is nevertheless truly God's own work. From this fact every one may himself readily infer that it is a far higher work than any work performed by a man or a saint. For what work greater than the work of God can we do?"

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 03:32 AM
I believe evey word in the Ephesian passage but you misunderstand baptism and its role in God's plan. It was designed, instituted and commanded by God as the ordinance that places the believer “into Christ Jesus” – “all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.” It is therefore God’s own work and it is a command that man submits to from the heart - as Martin Luther correctly wrote about baptism,
“…here stand God's commandment and institution, lest we doubt that Baptism is divine, not devised nor invented by men... For to be baptized in the name of God is to be baptized not by men, but by God Himself. Therefore although it is performed by human hands, it is nevertheless truly God's own work. From this fact every one may himself readily infer that it is a far higher work than any work performed by a man or a saint. For what work greater than the work of God can we do?"

I am not interested in what Martin Luther says, I'm interested in what the Bible says and Paul says that we are saved by grace through faith. You don't agree with that if you believe you are saved by baptism. There are so many flaws in Baptismal Regeneration it isn't even funny and they are covered in the baptism thread. I am not going to get into it with you again on this issue.

Let's just stay on track here. So you believe that faith and human external works (baptism) are what saves you, right?

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 03:39 AM
I am not interested in what Martin Luther says, I'm interested in what the Bible says and Paul says that we are saved by grace through faith. You don't agree with that if you believe you are saved by baptism. There are so many flaws in Baptismal Regeneration it isn't even funny and they are covered in the baptism thread. I am not going to get into it with you again on this issue.

Let's just stay on track here. So you believe that faith and human external works (baptism) are what saves you, right?
Are you not interested in what Jesus says about baptism? And again – baptism is God’s design, it is His command and it is His work. Man simply obeys from the heart what God commands.

Moving on - are we in agreement there are “things” one must “do” to be saved?

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 03:43 AM
Moving on - are we in agreement there are “things” one must “do” to be saved?

As I said before, there are no external things we must do in order to be saved. I don't believe we can come to Christ on our own so I view faith as a gift from God, not something we must 'do'.

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 03:55 AM
As I said before, there are no external things we must do in order to be saved. I don't believe we can come to Christ on our own so I view faith as a gift from God, not something we must 'do'.
But belief is something we do of our own volition. Are you suggesting God forces us to believe? And what about repentance – according to Jesus we parish if we refuse to repent – isn’t repentance something we must “do”? According to the law of logic it can't be both ways at the same time – either we “do nothing” – or we “do something”. Which is it? Is it belief alone as you have suggested or are there other "things" required?

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 03:59 AM
But belief is something we do of our own volition. Are you suggesting God forces us to believe? And what about repentance – according to Jesus we parish if we refuse to repent – isn’t repentance something we must “do”? According to the law of logic it can't be both ways at the same time – either we “do nothing” – or we “do something”. Which is it? Is it belief alone as you have suggested or are there other "things" required?

These are all inward things though. Yes, we must believe and repent. If you want to call these thing 'works' then that's fine.

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 04:08 AM
These are all inward things though. Yes, we must believe and repent. If you want to call these thing 'works' then that's fine.
Then we are in agreement – we are saved by faith that works through obedience to Gods will? Faith + obedience = salvation?

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 04:11 AM
Then we are in agreement – we are saved by faith that works through obedience to Gods will? Faith + obedience leads to salvation?

Close. I believe that once you have faith then you are saved. It's an instant moment when you come to faith in Christ and are born again. This is what saves you but the product of this saving faith is good works and obedience. However, one act of obedience isn't going to save you, only the faith will.

We believe the same thing about true faith in that it produces good works but you believe that it's both of these things that makes up salvation, therefore making it a process. I believe that the faith is what saves you but the good works will follow this saving faith but they don't have any effect on your salvation.

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 04:16 AM
Close. I believe that once you have faith then you are saved. It's an instant moment when you come to faith in Christ and are born again.
But were does repentance come into play? If it is you notion that one is saved at the moment of belief then Jesus must have been mistaken when He said you will parish without repenting – belief comes before repentance.

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 04:21 AM
But were does repentance come into play? If it is you notion that one is saved at the moment of belief then Jesus must have been mistaken when He said you will parish without repenting – belief comes before repentance.

I believe repentance goes along with believing. Someone who truly believes will repent and with the help of the Holy Spirit will be born into a new person who now hates sin and loves righteousness. Then starts the process of Sanctification. Justification however is a single event when God declares you saved. If you were to die an hour after you believed and repented then you would go to heaven and be fully glorified. According to you, someone who dies an hour after they come to Christ is going to hell because they haven't had the chance to do good works.

losthorizon
May 14th 2008, 04:34 AM
I believe repentance goes along with believing. Someone who truly believes will repent and with the help of the Holy Spirit will be born into a new person who now hates sin and loves righteousness. Then starts the process of Sanctification. Justification however is a single event when God declares you saved. If you were to die an hour after you believed and repented then you would go to heaven and be fully glorified. According to you, someone who dies an hour after they come to Christ is going to hell because they haven't had the chance to do good works.
What do you mean when you say “repentance goes along with believing”? They are not the same thing. One must come before the other. In Paul’s conversion was he saved on the road to Damascus the instant he believed Jesus was Lord or was he instructed by the Lord to go on into that city where he would be instructed further by one Ananias about what he must do to have his sins finally "washed away" by the blood of Christ (Acts 22)?

BrckBrln
May 14th 2008, 04:36 AM
What do you mean when you say “repentance goes along with believing”? They are not the same thing. One must come before the other. In Paul’s conversion was he saved on the road to Damascus the instant he believed Jesus was Lord or was he instructed by the Lord to go on into that city where he would be instructed further about what he must do to have his sins "washed away"?

I think it means the same thing as Justification and Sanctification go along together. They are different but you can't have one without the other.

A sinner cannot truly believe until he repents. Arthur W. Pink

Which is prior, faith or repentance? It is an unnecessary question and the insistence that one is prior to
the other futile. There is no priority. The faith that is unto salvation is a penitent faith and the
repentance that is unto life is a believing repentance…The interdependence of faith and repentance
can be readily seen when we remember that faith is faith in Christ for salvation from sin. But if faith is directed
to salvation from sin, there must be hatred of sin and the desire to be saved from it. Such hatred of sin involves
repentance, which essentially consists in turning from sin unto God. Again, if we remember that repentance is
turning from sin unto God, the turning to God implies faith in the mercy of God as revealed in Christ. It is
impossible to disentangle faith and repentance. Saving faith is permeated with repentance and repentance is
permeated with faith. Regeneration becomes vocal in our minds in the exercises of faith and repentance. John Murray