PDA

View Full Version : Please Help Calling All Baptists!



Matt14
May 9th 2008, 03:42 PM
A Baptist lady told me the other day that her congregation teaches that the age of accountability is exactly 13 years old, and said they got that from a passage in Proverbs or Psalms.

I know there are different groups of Baptists, but can some of you in that denomination help me out here? What passage might she be talking about?

Thanks for your help!

Teke
May 9th 2008, 05:15 PM
Be interesting to know. I was a Baptist and never heard of this before.:dunno:

Also, wouldn't mind knowing what accountability is for.

seamus414
May 9th 2008, 05:17 PM
A Baptist lady told me the other day that her congregation teaches that the age of accountability is exactly 13 years old, and said they got that from a passage in Proverbs or Psalms.

I know there are different groups of Baptists, but can some of you in that denomination help me out here? What passage might she be talking about?

Thanks for your help!

Not sure what passage that comes from but it is consistent with the Jewish tradition of taking on the Law at 12/13 and the Christian teaching of being confirmed in the faith at that age.

Matt14
May 9th 2008, 05:22 PM
Be interesting to know. I was a Baptist and never heard of this before.:dunno:

I thought I'd heard of most teachings of mainstream denoms, but I've never heard a specific age from any group other than Jews.


Also, wouldn't mind knowing what accountability is for.

Accountable for sins.

Lighthope
May 9th 2008, 05:22 PM
A Baptist lady told me the other day that her congregation teaches that the age of accountability is exactly 13 years old, and said they got that from a passage in Proverbs or Psalms.

I know there are different groups of Baptists, but can some of you in that denomination help me out here? What passage might she be talking about?

There is none that I can find/remember. Ishmael (father of the Arabs) was thirteen when he was circumcised.

In Judaism, they have their bar mitzvah at thirteen. The word means "one to whom the commandments apply".

This may be where she is getting her belief. It isn't biblical per se, but it is part of Jewish law. And since the Jews are the keepers of the law, it's a good argument. But I wouldn't hold God to a set-in-stone date. People are different and mature at different rates. God will hold people accountable when they are able to be accountable.

Lighthope

Pearls of Wisdom - If we call a fly a "fly" because it flies, why don't we call a fish a "swim"?

Matt14
May 9th 2008, 05:22 PM
Not sure what passage that comes from but it is consistent with the Jewish tradition of taking on the Law at 12/13 and the Christian teaching of being confirmed in the faith at that age.

Yeah, I had read that about Judaism. But is 13 the age for confirmation in the Catholic church and offshoots?

-

Frances
May 9th 2008, 05:24 PM
I am a Baptist - among other denominations and none - but I never heard 13 described as the 'age of accountability'. I wonder if your informant confused the fact that a Jewish boy is reckoned to become an adult on his 13th birthday with the 'age of accountability?

I have always understood that however young a person they are accountable for their obedience and disobedience when they understand the difference - which is much younger than 13!!

daughter
May 9th 2008, 05:34 PM
Bar Mitzvah means son of the commandments, doesn't it? And Bat Mitzvah, for girls "daughter of the commandments." Interestingly, Jewish girls are "mitzvahed" a year earlier than boys... because females are more mature than males. So nanna boo :P to all you guys out there... women are cleverer! :rofl:

The Parson
May 9th 2008, 05:38 PM
There is no verse that I can think of. I do know that many believe the age of accountability starts at puberty. Other than this, I just don't know.

Matt14
May 9th 2008, 05:40 PM
Thanks to all of you, this is really helpful. I figured it was not really based on scripture, but I was trying to see if there was a passage that may be misapplied to mean this.

I also called a local baptist congregation, who basically said the same thing we are all saying: No scripture, but maybe from a tradition of the Jews.

DanDMan64
May 9th 2008, 05:49 PM
A Baptist lady told me the other day that her congregation teaches that the age of accountability is exactly 13 years old, and said they got that from a passage in Proverbs or Psalms.

I know there are different groups of Baptists, but can some of you in that denomination help me out here? What passage might she be talking about?

Thanks for your help!I was a Baptist for a while when I was growing-up, though I attend a AG congregation now, but I'm really "non denominational" at heart.

In any event, is there a reason why you couldn't ask her directly what verse they were using?

And I've always heard the age of accountability is the age when you come to realize the difference between right and wrong, which I agree with the other poster is much younger than 13, and I would add is probably not something that can be determined to be the same universally for all children. IMHO. :)

Matt14
May 9th 2008, 06:38 PM
In any event, is there a reason why you couldn't ask her directly what verse they were using?

Yes, I did that already. She said it was "in Proverbs or Psalms, I'll tell you next week." She did not know where it was, but I will post it here next week if she "finds it."


And I've always heard the age of accountability is the age when you come to realize the difference between right and wrong, which I agree with the other poster is much younger than 13, and I would add is probably not something that can be determined to be the same universally for all children. IMHO. :)

Exactly, I agree with you. :)

-

theabaud
May 9th 2008, 06:48 PM
I can't look it up at the moment, but the only verse i know of that deals with this is in deut 1, probably vs 30. I am a Baptist, I preach it is the time in which a person knows the difference between good and evil. To put it in a freudian manner ( i so dislike freud), once the Superego develops would be the mark.

little_tigress
May 9th 2008, 06:59 PM
A Baptist lady told me the other day that her congregation teaches that the age of accountability is exactly 13 years old, and said they got that from a passage in Proverbs or Psalms.

I know there are different groups of Baptists, but can some of you in that denomination help me out here? What passage might she be talking about?

Thanks for your help!

I'm not baptist, though i did spend much of my walk as a Christian in a baptist church so i dunno if i can post here :D

i'm familiar with the age of accountability doctrine, though i've never heard anyone set a certain age to that doctrine. The way i've heard it explained before the age of accountability changes from person to person as it becmes the age where the child is able to comprehend the gospel and accept Christ as his/her Saviour. Some can do this at 4 some at 7, etc... I can really only think of one prooftext passage for that belief though.


20 So David arose from the ground, washed and anointed himself, and changed his clothes; and he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house; and when he requested, they set food before him, and he ate. 21 Then his servants said to him, “What is this that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive, but when the child died, you arose and ate food.”
22 And he said, “While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who can tell whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ 23 But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.” - 2 Sam 12



i think i'd push her to ask her pastor (if she is uncertain herself) what passage it is that they took 13 as the age of accountability cuz i'd be interested in reading that passage :D

Matt14
May 9th 2008, 07:03 PM
I can't look it up at the moment, but the only verse i know of that deals with this is in deut 1, probably vs 30. I am a Baptist, I preach it is the time in which a person knows the difference between good and evil. To put it in a freudian manner ( i so dislike freud), once the Superego develops would be the mark.
Thanks! It does not seem to be Deut. 1:30 though. If you find it, will you post the verse you were thinking of?

-

mcgyver
May 9th 2008, 07:09 PM
I'm a Baptist...and I think that this dear lady was a bit confused :lol:

I have never heard an exact age given...

The age of accountability comes at different times IMO. When one is of an age to realize and understand what sin is...to my mind then they would be accountable before God...because they are capable of understanding that sin is, well, sin (if that makes any sense :P)...

resbmc
May 9th 2008, 07:15 PM
I did a concordance search, and there is no scripture that says that.

timmyb
May 9th 2008, 07:33 PM
I'm not baptist, though i did spend much of my walk as a Christian in a baptist church so i dunno if i can post here :D

i'm familiar with the age of accountability doctrine, though i've never heard anyone set a certain age to that doctrine. The way i've heard it explained before the age of accountability changes from person to person as it becmes the age where the child is able to comprehend the gospel and accept Christ as his/her Saviour. Some can do this at 4 some at 7, etc... I can really only think of one prooftext passage for that belief though.


20 So David arose from the ground, washed and anointed himself, and changed his clothes; and he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house; and when he requested, they set food before him, and he ate. 21 Then his servants said to him, “What is this that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive, but when the child died, you arose and ate food.”
22 And he said, “While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who can tell whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ 23 But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.” - 2 Sam 12



i think i'd push her to ask her pastor (if she is uncertain herself) what passage it is that they took 13 as the age of accountability cuz i'd be interested in reading that passage :D

that's a very good verse to quote to the super calvinists that say that babies go to hell because they are in depravity and are born into sin...

threebigrocks
May 9th 2008, 07:41 PM
Yeah, I had read that about Judaism. But is 13 the age for confirmation in the Catholic church and offshoots?

-

I've never heard of a specific age either generally speaking, but I was raised RC and when we were in 8th grade, being about 12 - 13 years old, is when we went through confirmation.

crawfish
May 9th 2008, 08:26 PM
I'm not a baptist, but I'd always heard Matthew 18:3 as justification for "age of accountability":


And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

The age was dependent on the maturity level and understanding of the person; for some it could be 8-9, or some mentally challenged might find they never pass the age.

Of course, that may be stretching the meaning of the passage. I think the idea is a rejection of "original sin" and the need for infant baptism.

Buck shot
May 9th 2008, 11:48 PM
I'm a Baptist and graduated from a Baptist seminary (does this mean I can't post here? :lol:) and there has never been an age set. Some reach it early and some do not until they are older. I think it would depend on te person.

I agree that the woman was confused or maybe she believed someone that falsely taught her...:cry:

The Parson
May 10th 2008, 01:22 AM
I'm a Baptist and graduated from a Baptist seminary (does this mean I can't post here? :lol:)Naw, if that were true, I'd have been banned a long time ago brother.

brakelite
May 10th 2008, 04:50 AM
I've never heard of a specific age either generally speaking, but I was raised RC and when we were in 8th grade, being about 12 - 13 years old, is when we went through confirmation.

:lol:I guess the RCs are as confused about the issue as are the Baptists. I was raised RC but from my recollection I was 7 when confirmed.
But I agree with the general consensus here that accountability differs with the individual. Shall a mentally unwell person be held accountable at any age?
And yet my 2-7 yo grankids know quite well when they are naughty cos my daughters tell them in no uncertain terms.:D
Whether 'naughtiness' can be equated with sin is another story.:hmm:

Ninna
May 10th 2008, 12:11 PM
I am Baptist...and have never heard of any age given.

The Parson
May 10th 2008, 02:40 PM
:lol:I guess the RCs are as confused about the issue as are the Baptists. I was raised RC but from my recollection I was 7 when confirmed.
But I agree with the general consensus here that accountability differs with the individual. Shall a mentally unwell person be held accountable at any age?
And yet my 2-7 yo grankids know quite well when they are naughty cos my daughters tell them in no uncertain terms.:D
Whether 'naughtiness' can be equated with sin is another story.:hmm:The mentally unwell person, if they can't judge good from evil are plainly under the same protection because they cannot be convicted of a law they cannot understand nor pathom. Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

seamus414
May 10th 2008, 03:48 PM
Yeah, I had read that about Judaism. But is 13 the age for confirmation in the Catholic church and offshoots?-

For Jews it is closely monitored according to the talmud. For Christians, I do not think it is 100% consistent or strictly enforced. For example, I know the policy in my own congregation is that confirmation classes typically start for 6th graders but, after prayeful discernment, if the priests do not believe that the child understands the commitment to be taken or has not made a commitment (e.g.: is just going through the motions), then they will not put the child forward to the bishop for confirmation. I have also known younger children being confirmed as the priests thought that the child had a younger-than-usual comprehension and acceptance of the Faith.

Of course, it goes without saying that an adult can be barmitzvaed or confirmed without the involvement of teh rabbi or priest as the adult makes his/her own decisions.

theabaud
May 10th 2008, 03:59 PM
Thanks! It does not seem to be Deut. 1:30 though. If you find it, will you post the verse you were thinking of?

-
Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.


Be advised that this is talking specifically about the transgression of the Israelites following the report of the spies, but the application is there.

Frances
May 10th 2008, 06:59 PM
once the Superego develops would be the mark.
:o
Well that is usually a few months after birth when they realise they can control all of the people in their sphere with smiles and screams!!

The Village Idiot
May 10th 2008, 08:15 PM
Each assembly should be able to decide this matter based on a simple majority vote. :lol:

Only kidding!

theabaud
May 10th 2008, 08:49 PM
:o
Well that is usually a few months after birth when they realise they can control all of the people in their sphere with smiles and screams!!
That would be the ID. stupid Freud made that word up. I have a book of his here that I wanted to read really bad in college, and now I want to burn it. BAH!

rush4hire
May 11th 2008, 03:23 PM
The age of accountability comes at different times IMO. When one is of an age to realize and understand what sin is...

I agree with that. I heard the saying: "if they are old enough to be lost, then they are old enough to be saved."

A little history:

The Lutheran reformation in the 1500s was huge. Underground bible believers came out and joined up and they persuaded thousands to forsake the traditions of men for the true gospel of Christ. They gained the prestige to persuade governors and princes to pass laws protecting religious freedom and stay the tyranny of Papal persecution against protestants.

But after things settled some people had the idea that infant baptism wasn't biblical and the only form of baptism the Lord will recognize is when a person reaches the "age of accountability". This simply means when a person is old enough to understand that he needs Christ to keep him from ruining himself with sin.

Most of the Lutherans where too proud to forsake their traditions. Luther himself was too busy risking his neck, (literally), to bear the burdens God had given him to be bothered with any more new doctrines.

Those who accepted the doctrine where called Anabaptists and where eventually forced to start their own denomination. Actually several groups split off from this point, including the Amish and Mennonites, but that's a lot of detail for this post.

But the Lutherans to this day still baptize babys.

God has to reveal light gradually.

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Now concerning the idea that the protestant reformation ends with the Baptist reformation... I guess that's a topic for another thread.

Dave McIntyre
May 11th 2008, 04:50 PM
There is no verse that I can think of. I do know that many believe the age of accountability starts at peuberty. Other that this, I just don't know.

+1 I've been a Baptist for 25 years and never heard this one. I think the age of serious consequences starts at puberty. Mac

Denny606
Feb 18th 2009, 10:17 AM
I am a Baptist and believe there is an age that we as individuals,become accountable for our sins.I won't put an age on it ,because God works in individual hearts not a group plan, How about; He that knows to do good and does it not unto him it is sin. I don't know when some one knows they are lost,any more than I know they are saved other than their testimony and the light that shines out of them.

iruntherace4Him
Feb 18th 2009, 01:05 PM
I use to be an Independant fundamental baptist, I often heard the age of accountablity being tossed around at age 7. Tossed around because they were never biblically accounted for.

bosco
Feb 18th 2009, 02:31 PM
Thanks to all of you, this is really helpful. I figured it was not really based on scripture, but I was trying to see if there was a passage that may be misapplied to mean this.

I also called a local baptist congregation, who basically said the same thing we are all saying: No scripture, but maybe from a tradition of the Jews.

I am not sure what the Jewish tradition says, not sure if the bible actually puts a "year" on it, but I would think that it depends on one's maturity level??

Bosco

Joyfulee
Feb 18th 2009, 03:20 PM
Pro. 20:11 says:

Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work [be] pure, and whether [it be] right.

That verse is in accordance with: you shall know them by their fruits. Mat. 7:16

I'm of the opinion that age is of no matter.

Firstfruits
Feb 18th 2009, 04:19 PM
A Baptist lady told me the other day that her congregation teaches that the age of accountability is exactly 13 years old, and said they got that from a passage in Proverbs or Psalms.

I know there are different groups of Baptists, but can some of you in that denomination help me out here? What passage might she be talking about?

Thanks for your help!

I thought that this might help but it is only when Ishmael was cicumcised. Abraham was circumcised at 90.

Gen 17:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

Happy hunting!!!!

Firstfruits

Veretax
Feb 18th 2009, 04:59 PM
A Baptist lady told me the other day that her congregation teaches that the age of accountability is exactly 13 years old, and said they got that from a passage in Proverbs or Psalms.

I know there are different groups of Baptists, but can some of you in that denomination help me out here? What passage might she be talking about?

Thanks for your help!


I also am not aware of any particular verse, In the Peneteuch God only had them number people age 20 up to I think 50 or 60, (I'd have to go look it up), but I think for God, God knows when they are at the age.

BadDog
Feb 19th 2009, 04:20 AM
A Baptist lady told me the other day that her congregation teaches that the age of accountability is exactly 13 years old, and said they got that from a passage in Proverbs or Psalms.

I know there are different groups of Baptists, but can some of you in that denomination help me out here? What passage might she be talking about?

Thanks for your help!Well, there are Baptists, and then there are Baptists... I don't know about this 13 y.o. A of A idea.

BD

My heart's Desire
Feb 19th 2009, 07:08 AM
Another former Baptist here and I don't think the Bible gives an age of accountability. My opinion though is one must know the difference between good and evil to understand sin and to be saved from it. As far as Babies, can God not save whom He wants? Can a 2 day old Baby believe unto salvation? Anyway, I know there are other threads like that so I just won't Go there. :)

Junos
Feb 19th 2009, 06:08 PM
I think the best way to answer that is to say this: There is no "age of accountability" identified in Scripture, as such. There is nothing in the Bible that says, "Here is the age and from here on you are responsible!" I think the reason for that is because children mature at different paces. That would be true from culture to culture, and from age to age in history.

The closest you come to some kind of age requirement is in Numbers 1:3 when Aaron is gathering a count of all men twenty years or older to serve in the Army. Other than that...

Just My Thoughts! :)

Sherrie
Feb 19th 2009, 06:17 PM
I'm a Baptist...and I think that this dear lady was a bit confused :lol:

I have never heard an exact age given...

The age of accountability comes at different times IMO. When one is of an age to realize and understand what sin is...to my mind then they would be accountable before God...because they are capable of understanding that sin is, well, sin (if that makes any sense :P)...

I am baptist as well..."General Baptist". I would have wrote something about the same as this.

BadDog
Feb 20th 2009, 12:00 AM
By "age of accountability" do we really mean "age at which point we are held responsible for what we have done with Christ... whether or not we have trusted in Him as our Savior?" Based on David's comments after his son died I would assume that before this point a child would go to heaven if he or she died. David was confident he would see the baby again:

1 Samuel 12:18-23 On the seventh day the child died. David's servants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, "While the child was still living, we spoke to David but he would not listen to us. How can we tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate." David noticed that his servants were whispering among themselves and he realized the child was dead. "Is the child dead?" he asked. "Yes," they replied, "he is dead." Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate. His servants asked him, "Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!" He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.' But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

And we can also ask, "Does this age of accountability apply to the heathen in Africa as well?" Similar to a young child they do not know about Jesus. IMO it is not the same situation, as those heathen are condemned for rejecting what God has revealed of Himself in creation (Romans 1:18ff, Psalm 19 and Romans 10:18).

But I think we can assume that there is some point in a child's growing up at which point they are accountable for their decision regarding what God has revealed in nature alone. In Jonah chapter 4:11 we do see a possible hint that God is aware of those who are so young as to "not know their right-hand from their left."

Jonah 4:10, 11 But the Lord said, "You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. But Nineveh has more than 120,000 people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?"

I suppose we can say that if a child can not discern between its right and left hands then it is not yet old enough to be held accountable for a decision regarding the salvation Jesus has provided. I think this is a way of expressing some sort of "age of accountability." But IMO this point in time differs from one child to another, and is known only to God. I would include those who are mentally challenged.

Some do consider the age of accountability to be around 12 or 13 perhaps because this was the age when Jesus went up to Jerusalem with his parents and was found in the temple discussing the Law and asking questions. Jesus told His parents that He must be about His Father's business. This is also the age for being received into Judaism as a full member of the religious community.

But all of this is just conjecture since it is nowhere explicitly stated in Scripture. It's just reasonable speculation, at best.

BD

Denny606
Feb 20th 2009, 03:15 AM
I don't understand the time Jesus was 12 or 13 teaching in the temple,I believe it, I've read it,But correct me if I am wrong ,and there are some pretty sharp scholars on here I might add,But didn't a Jew have to be 30 years old to teach the law,Because this is the age Jesus came to be baptized by john and to preach His own Gospel, and I thought I read this in the Law .If I have derailed this thread would one of the moderators move it for meit was not my intention.

Matt14
Feb 26th 2009, 11:44 PM
Well, there are Baptists, and then there are Baptists... I don't know about this 13 y.o. A of A idea.

BD
Hey old man. ;)

Long time no see! Hope you and yours are well...

Matt14
Feb 26th 2009, 11:45 PM
A big thanks to each and every one of you who responded in this thread. As many who know me are aware, I believe the "age of accountability" is something only known to God and the person in question. It varies from person to person. Anyway, thanks a ton to everyone for chiming in. :)

cnur1
Feb 27th 2009, 10:37 PM
I had a strange sensation when I was about seven or eight. I suddenly had the notion that I was 'accountable'. I knew nothing about scripture. Who knows if the age is fixed?

cdo
Feb 28th 2009, 07:42 PM
A Baptist lady told me the other day that her congregation teaches that the age of accountability is exactly 13 years old, and said they got that from a passage in Proverbs or Psalms.

I know there are different groups of Baptists, but can some of you in that denomination help me out here? What passage might she be talking about?

Thanks for your help!

I don't know where any scripture is in the Bible that comes out directly about the age of accountability.A few things come to mind.....When Jesus was a toddler of around 2 years old...there was nothing spoken about him between that age and 12 years old. I think a lot of the 'possible differences in age' has to do with the teachings of God's word from parents.If a 'person' has never been taugh God's word and never has heard of Jesus would have a lot to do with accountability no matter what age.I'm not saying there's no age limit,I don't know.

IMHO,
~~Darlene~~

BadDog
Mar 1st 2009, 11:51 PM
Hey old man. ;)

Long time no see! Hope you and yours are well...Thx Matt... doing well.

It's snowing, and some of the school's are closing in the Atlanta area. :cool: I guess they don't know how to handle snow here.

BD

BadDog
Mar 1st 2009, 11:55 PM
I don't understand the time Jesus was 12 or 13 teaching in the temple,I believe it, I've read it,But correct me if I am wrong ,and there are some pretty sharp scholars on here I might add,But didn't a Jew have to be 30 years old to teach the law,Because this is the age Jesus came to be baptized by john and to preach His own Gospel, and I thought I read this in the Law .If I have derailed this thread would one of the moderators move it for me it was not my intention.
No problem.

I don't know about this, but Jesus was just being asked questions, and amazing the teachers there, as well as confounding them with questions. He was not teaching yet.

BD