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merjorg
May 9th 2008, 08:48 PM
Was talking to a family member about 1 Thess 4:13-18. Neither of us have done any in-depth analysis of these verses, but it was an interesting conversation. My interpretation was that when a saved person leaves this life, they fall asleep in Christ and, therefore, are not in heaven yet. She says, "of course they're in heaven with God".

I have heard many believers say, "He is in heaven now." Or, "She went to be with the Lord."

Thoughts?

JordanW
May 9th 2008, 09:04 PM
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. NKJV

There are the scriptures. After reading them, my interpretation is that this is a prophecy of the 2nd coming of Christ, and that the people that are saved, but have already died, will rise out of their graves and ascend into Heaven, but those that are alive still on earth will be taken up 2nd. This is just my interpretation, so I may be totally wrong. Great post though!:D

9Marksfan
May 9th 2008, 09:21 PM
The term "fall asleep" in the NT means "die" - so to "fall asleep in Christ" means to be a Christian when you die. The tricky verse in 1 Thess 4:14 - "those who sleep in Jesus" either means the same thing or (perhaps clearer) "through Jesus sleep" - He will return with those whose spirits have gone ahead to be with Him (to a conscious, joyous, worshipping existence in Heaven) - they have died (asleep) and their bodies are in the grave - but their glorified spirits and resurrected bodies will be reunited in the air when Christ returns for them.

DanDMan64
May 9th 2008, 09:25 PM
Was talking to a family member about 1 Thess 4:13-18. Neither of us have done any in-depth analysis of these verses, but it was an interesting conversation. My interpretation was that when a saved person leaves this life, they fall asleep in Christ and, therefore, are not in heaven yet. She says, "of course they're in heaven with God".

I have heard many believers say, "He is in heaven now." Or, "She went to be with the Lord."

Thoughts?I guess what you're asking is "What happens to the soul after we die? doest it go to heaven and is aware of everything? or does it go to a sleep mode where it awaits resurrection?" :hmm:

Is that what you're asking? :confused

merjorg
May 9th 2008, 09:27 PM
I guess what you're asking is "What happens to the soul after we die? doest it go to heaven and is aware of everything? or does it go to a sleep mode where it awaits resurrection?" :hmm:

Is that what you're asking? :confused


Dan,

Yes...that's exactly what I'm asking.

IamBill
May 9th 2008, 09:36 PM
Interesting !

I would just like to point out something quick that may be a factor in this.

-Is "Time" even an issue in the spirit world ? -

I don't think so.

IMO the soul could remain here, yet never know the difference when awoke.
:hmm:

DanDMan64
May 9th 2008, 09:47 PM
I used to think that "to sleep" meant that souls of believers and unbelievers alike are simply not aware of anything until they get reunited with their resurrected bodies.

However someone pointed-out something that made me think I might be wrong. They said; "Jesus told the thief on the cross, that after their death they would be together in Paradise," That implies awareness of being in paradise after death, so it is possible that the soul goes to be in a place called "paradise" though I'm not sure that's the same as being in the Throne room described in Revelation 4.

I will have to look more into that, but bottom line is I believe now that in fact the believer's soul is in a special place Christ called "Paradise".:)

9Marksfan
May 9th 2008, 09:50 PM
When we die, we go to be with Christ, which is "far better" - we are absent from the body, but present with the Lord. When the writer to the Hebrews speaks of the heavenly Mount Zion in ch 12, he speaks of the "spirits of just men made perfect" - that's all believers who have gone on ahead! Here and now! So it is the same as the Throneroom in Rev 4.

merjorg
May 9th 2008, 09:52 PM
Bill, what you propose could certainly be the case. That would mean that the soul is actually still here. It won't know that it was here all that time (when Christ returns), but it is still here nonetheless.

Dan, good point. Hadn't considered that.

Also, without looking up the actual verse...doesn't Hebrews (Ch. 11 or 12 I believe) mention something about those that have gone on before us can't receive the prize until we have finished our race?

Does that give further insight into this issue?

merjorg
May 9th 2008, 09:56 PM
When we die, we go to be with Christ, which is "far better" - we are absent from the body, but present with the Lord. When the writer to the Hebrews speaks of the heavenly Mount Zion in ch 12, he speaks of the "spirits of just men made perfect" - that's all believers who have gone on ahead! Here and now! So it is the same as the Throneroom in Rev 4.

Seems like with this in mind as well as what Dan pointed out about Jesus speaking to the thieves, that the soul is in heaven while the body remains. Then, as 9marksfan mentioned in his first post, these two are reunited with the return of Christ.

DanDMan64
May 9th 2008, 10:00 PM
I just did a quick Bible search on the word "Paradise" and it only found three hits, they are:


Lk 23:43 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2 Cor 12:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

There's some food for thought, as for me I gotta go and probably won't be back till Monday.

Have a great weekend everyone! :pp

merjorg
May 9th 2008, 10:10 PM
I took a look at the Message bible just for discussion purposes:

The Master's Coming

13-14And regarding the question, friends, that has come up about what happens to those already dead and buried, we don't want you in the dark any longer. First off, you must not carry on over them like people who have nothing to look forward to, as if the grave were the last word. Since Jesus died and broke loose from the grave, God will most certainly bring back to life those who died in Jesus.
15-18And then this: We can tell you with complete confidence—we have the Master's word on it—that when the Master comes again to get us, those of us who are still alive will not get a jump on the dead and leave them behind. In actual fact, they'll be ahead of us. The Master himself will give the command. Archangel thunder! God's trumpet blast! He'll come down from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise—they'll go first. Then the rest of us who are still alive at the time will be caught up with them into the clouds to meet the Master. Oh, we'll be walking on air! And then there will be one huge family reunion with the Master. So reassure one another with these words.

Clifton
May 9th 2008, 10:28 PM
My understanding is that MOST of those whom die are asleep - there is also an issue of this in one of the Samuel Books. But there are some that are "expedited", either to Paradise (special saints) or Hades (very evil ones). It has been pointed here about the repentant thief on the cross - there is also the transfiguration of Moses and Elias talking to Christ on the Mount, thus, it does not appear that Moses and Elias were 'asleep'.

:2cents:

Blessings.

RJ Mac
May 9th 2008, 11:20 PM
Mt.12:40 Jesus says He will be 3 days & 3 nights in the heart of the earth.
Lk.23:43 Jesus tells the thief, today you will be with Me in Paradise.
Eph. 4:9 Hades is in the heart of the earth, Jesus descended with the thief.

Lk.16:19-31 - True story of Lazarus and rich man, both went to Hades.
Hades has two parts - Lazarus was in Abraham's Bosom, rich man in torment.
Jn.20:17 Jesus is resurrected and tells Mary He hasn't gone to heaven yet.

Ac.1:9-11 Jesus ascends to heaven, taking the righteous from Hades,
Eph.4:8 When He ascended He took captivity (Abraham's bosom) captive.
Heb.11:36,37 the righteous from the OT were still not perfect waiting for
the Messiah to come, waiting for the blood of Christ.

Heb.9:11-14 Now when Jesus entered heaven He took His blood which made it
possible for them & us to go. Now we Christians and OT righteous are made perfect by the blood.
Heb.12:22-24 Here we see the throne room as it was when Hebrews was written in the first century.
We see angels, we see the church of the firstborn (Christians) we see righteous spirits
made perfect (OT heros) we see Jesus!

Rev.4,5 we see in the throne room, the 24 elders, representing 12 tribes, 12 apostles.
Rev.6:9-11 the martyrs under the altar of incense, asking God to stop persecution on earth.
Rev.7:9-17 a multitude in heaven, from the Roman persecution.

When we die victorious today, we go straight to heaven and Jesus confesses our name
before His Father and the angels, Rev.3:5; Mt.10:32;
On judgement day the dead in Christ will arise (given immortal bodies) and return with Christ 1Th.3:13; 4:14;
to receive those of us still on earth 1Th.4:17;

We all we then go to the new earth Rev.21:1 with Christ who will walk with us after He surrenders the kingdom to His Father 1Cor.15:24

Lk.16 refutes the idea of soul sleep, the rich man is very much awake and knows his brothers are in danger of joining him.
Too many references show saints in heaven with Christ now, Paul wishes to die so He can be with Christ. Php.1:23;

Ac.7:59 Stephen as he was being stoned, looked up and saw Jesus in heaven
Stephen cried out, Lord Jesus receive my spirit. Stephen knew he was headed for heaven.

RJ Mac

quiet dove
May 9th 2008, 11:58 PM
Since through Jesus we have access to the Father, spiritual speaking we are covered having been brought from the darkness to the Light.

We can pray, sing praises, have a relationship, communicate with God, covered by Jesus atoning blood we are forgiven.

Why would he knock us out cold when we die? Can't sing praises if your not conscious?

That don't make no sense. :D

Buck shot
May 10th 2008, 12:03 AM
Seems like with this in mind as well as what Dan pointed out about Jesus speaking to the thieves, that the soul is in heaven while the body remains. Then, as 9marksfan mentioned in his first post, these two are reunited with the return of Christ.

Yes :agree: This is what happens! We (our spirits) go directly to be with the Lord (if we know Him as our Savior) and our fleshly body stays to be resurrected one day.

Just as Jesus told of the Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16. The rich man went directly to Abraham's bosom and the rich man went to Hell. This must have happened while the rich man's brother's were still alive because he wanted to send them a message so they would not go to Hell. ;)

ARCHER42
May 10th 2008, 12:15 AM
To be absent from the physical body is to be present with the Lord... A born again believer who takes his last breath and is expired, his spirit and soul are immediately in the presense of Jesus Christ. I agree, when He returns for His true bride the body will be reunited with the soul and spirit. Thats when mortality will be clothed with immortality. A resurrected and glorified body like Jesus the Christ. In the twinkling of an eye...

I don't think God 'would knock us out' with sleep after we take our last breath.. the Hope of a believer is to see the ONE who Redeemed you.. face to face... at least it is for me.

Blessed are those who believe, yet have not seen Him...

2 Peter 2:20
May 10th 2008, 12:48 AM
The term "fall asleep" in the NT means "die" - so to "fall asleep in Christ" means to be a Christian when you die. The tricky verse in 1 Thess 4:14 - "those who sleep in Jesus" either means the same thing or (perhaps clearer) "through Jesus sleep" - He will return with those whose spirits have gone ahead to be with Him (to a conscious, joyous, worshipping existence in Heaven) - they have died (asleep) and their bodies are in the grave - but their glorified spirits and resurrected bodies will be reunited in the air when Christ returns for them.


When we die, we go to be with Christ, which is "far better" - we are absent from the body, but present with the Lord. When the writer to the Hebrews speaks of the heavenly Mount Zion in ch 12, he speaks of the "spirits of just men made perfect" - that's all believers who have gone on ahead! Here and now! So it is the same as the Throneroom in Rev 4.


Yes :agree: This is what happens! We (our spirits) go directly to be with the Lord (if we know Him as our Savior) and our fleshly body stays to be resurrected one day.

Just as Jesus told of the Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16. The rich man went directly to Abraham's bosom and the rich man went to Hell. This must have happened while the rich man's brother's were still alive because he wanted to send them a message so they would not go to Hell. ;)

We are all in agreement! I wonder how many other things a POTSer, a NOSASer, and a OSASer "lite" could be in harmony on!

One other verse that might help clear this up...
Phil. 1
23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

9Marksfan
May 11th 2008, 09:13 PM
We are all in agreement! I wonder how many other things a POTSer, a NOSASer, and a OSASer "lite" could be in harmony on!

One other verse that might help clear this up...
Phil. 1
23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

OSASer "lite"!!! :rofl:

It's great when we find things we can agree on! But as Ken so often says, we agree on far more than we disagree on!

RJ Mac
May 11th 2008, 11:47 PM
If we go to be with the Lord, our earthly body goes back to dust.
It is wrong to touch a dead body, you become unclean.
So why after 1,000's of years would God take our spirit who is in heaven
and deposit it into our old physical body and at what state? just before
we died, after suffering years of cancer treatments? In that crippled state
I grew up in? Why do I ever want to see this body again? And am I not
unclean for I just crawled into the grave, to be resurrected to go to a place
I just spent many years enjoying? So tell me again why I'm going back to the
old fleshly body, even for a short period of time?

RJ Mac

9Marksfan
May 11th 2008, 11:51 PM
If we go to be with the Lord, our earthly body goes back to dust.
It is wrong to touch a dead body, you become unclean.
So why after 1,000's of years would God take our spirit who is in heaven
and deposit it into our old physical body and at what state? just before
we died, after suffering years of cancer treatments? In that crippled state
I grew up in? Why do I ever want to see this body again? And am I not
unclean for I just crawled into the grave, to be resurrected to go to a place
I just spent many years enjoying? So tell me again why I'm going back to the
old fleshly body, even for a short period of time?

RJ Mac

But God will transform the dust of our lowly bodies into a heavenly body like the one Jesus appeared to His disciples in! And we shall have our resurrection bodies for ever and ever!!!!!:pp:pp:pp

servantsheart
May 12th 2008, 01:50 AM
Was talking to a family member about 1 Thess 4:13-18. Neither of us have done any in-depth analysis of these verses, but it was an interesting conversation. My interpretation was that when a saved person leaves this life, they fall asleep in Christ and, therefore, are not in heaven yet. She says, "of course they're in heaven with God".

I have heard many believers say, "He is in heaven now." Or, "She went to be with the Lord."

Thoughts?
Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust [out of which God made man's body] return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return to God Who gave it.
We are in a place called Paradise: garden/park {Luke 23:43 and Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be wit me in paradise}, this garden referes to the place of bless and rest between death and resurrection.
(this is just my thinking on this...) If the garden/park or Paradis is a place of bless and rest then this would make sense that the 'asleep' in Christ are NOT dead and unconscious but not fully engaged until we receive our new spirit bodies.We are indeed with Christ but not 'seeing' the earth and family, etc. It is a whole different state of being and at this place and time we have not come before God in the final judgement.

help is always welcome here.....

Buck shot
May 12th 2008, 04:16 AM
But God will transform the dust of our lowly bodies into a heavenly body like the one Jesus appeared to His disciples in! And we shall have our resurrection bodies for ever and ever!!!!!:pp:pp:pp
:agree:
We will not go back to these old bodies but will be given our glorified bodies! Weither God will create them from the exact same dust these were created from is to be seen but rest assured I will be happy that this body goes back to dust where it came from! ;) I am looking for the new updated version :cool:

9Marksfan
May 12th 2008, 08:28 AM
:agree:
We will not go back to these old bodies but will be given our glorified bodies!

Yep - amazingly, I was just reading the following passage in my QT this morning - very apposite!

But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 1 Cor 15:35-49 NKJV



Weither God will create them from the exact same dust these were created from is to be seen but rest assured I will be happy that this body goes back to dust where it came from! ;) I am looking for the new updated version :cool:

The verses I've highlighted show that, like Jesus' body, the resurrection body will come form the original - that's why no one will ever be able to find His bones! This verse teaches the same thing - no "off the shelf" body for us! If God could make the first Adam from the dust of the ground, it won't be a problem for Him to make the resurrection bodies of most of His redeemed the same way!

who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself. Phil 3:21 NKJV

IamBill
May 12th 2008, 09:59 PM
Bill, what you propose could certainly be the case. That would mean that the soul is actually still here. It won't know that it was here all that time (when Christ returns), but it is still here nonetheless.



Well, I don't mean to suggest that I think it does remain.
Just that it is possible we wouldn't know if it did ;)

I think to many focus on the physical body, and how it 'fits' and will fit into the picture.

Heeves23
May 12th 2008, 10:49 PM
I believe that people are either with God or in hell after death. I guess yeah our bodies will be resurrected to meet our spirits. Thats what i have heard quite a bit.

9Marksfan
May 13th 2008, 08:32 AM
Well, I don't mean to suggest that I think it does remain.
Just that it is possible we wouldn't know if it did ;)

I think to many focus on the physical body, and how it 'fits' and will fit into the picture.

But how can we be ABSENT from the body and PRESENT with the Lord if the soul is still in the body, inactive for perhaps thousands of years? If we were created to be to the praise of God's glory, being asleep and inactive for potentially thousands of years seems a very strange way to do it! I also believe it contradicts far too many Scriptures that teach that we are consciously with Christ in Heaven, worshipping Him as soon as we die. Does not the Scripture teach that He will return with all His holy ones? Now, is that ONLY angels? Or is it ALSO the "spirits of just men made perfect", who will be reunited with their now resurrected bodies in the air when the dead are raised? I know it's an incredible concept to get our heads around, but when the dead are raised, THAT will be an utterly amazing thing too! :)

TexasBeliever
May 13th 2008, 01:49 PM
Well in the old testament it says the dead know nothing. And somewhere else in the OT, someone actually contacts a dead person, and he asks him, "why have you disturbed my sleep?" (I can't remember where in the scriptures)

But in the NT, Jesus says to the thief on the cross, "This day you shall be with Me in paradise." And a quote from Paul (I think) says, "I would much rather be away from the body for to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

So maybe the state of one's consciousness changed after the resurrection.

Brother Mark
May 13th 2008, 01:52 PM
Well in the old testament it says the dead know nothing. And somewhere else in the OT, someone actually contacts a dead person, and he asks him, "why have you disturbed my sleep?" (I can't remember where in the scriptures)

But in the NT, Jesus says to the thief on the cross, "This day you shall be with Me in paradise." And a quote from Paul (I think) says, "I would much rather be away from the body for to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

So maybe the state of one's consciousness changed after the resurrection.

Jesus said God was the God of the living when he referred to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. IOW, he was saying those guys were alive.

Matt 22:31-33
31 "But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living. "
NASB

They weren't waiting for something to change. They weren't dead. They were alive because God often referred to himself after they physically died as the "God of Abraham". He is the God of the living.

IamBill
May 13th 2008, 02:53 PM
But how can we be ABSENT from the body and PRESENT with the Lord if the soul is still in the body, inactive for perhaps thousands of years? If we were created to be to the praise of God's glory, being asleep and inactive for potentially thousands of years seems a very strange way to do it!
Well, via the spiritual/heavenly body - our souls - the bodies Adam and Eve "lost sight of" after eating of the tree. I didn't say or even suggest that the soul remains 'in the grave', just that the sense of "time" could very well be irreverent to the spiritual world. In what way does a thousand years compare to eternity ? ...sort of like a 'blink' ? ;) I think 'time' is an issue of the flesh.
And I think physical bodies are an issue of the flesh.


From here down you may have to unravel for me because there are many different subjects and opinions of each.

I also believe it contradicts far too many Scriptures that teach that we are consciously with Christ in Heaven, worshipping Him as soon as we die. Does not the Scripture teach that He will return with all His holy ones? Now, is that ONLY angels? Or is it ALSO the "spirits of just men made perfect", who will be reunited with their now resurrected bodies in the air when the dead are raised? I know it's an incredible concept to get our heads around, but when the dead are raised, THAT will be an utterly amazing thing too! :)
Yes it is :)
But also note that at that time, those alive will be "changed" - changed from what and why!
flesh is corruptible, it desires, it fears, and it dies.
:)

Luke 23:42
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Could be that many Will indeed 'sleep in the earth' until the Lords return.
:)

2 Peter 2:20
May 13th 2008, 02:55 PM
But how can we be ABSENT from the body and PRESENT with the Lord if the soul is still in the body, inactive for perhaps thousands of years? If we were created to be to the praise of God's glory, being asleep and inactive for potentially thousands of years seems a very strange way to do it! I also believe it contradicts far too many Scriptures that teach that we are consciously with Christ in Heaven, worshipping Him as soon as we die. Does not the Scripture teach that He will return with all His holy ones? Now, is that ONLY angels? Or is it ALSO the "spirits of just men made perfect", who will be reunited with their now resurrected bodies in the air when the dead are raised? I know it's an incredible concept to get our heads around, but when the dead are raised, THAT will be an utterly amazing thing too! :)

This is true! Crystal clear...even more than the NOSAS truth.:P

TexasBeliever
May 13th 2008, 09:21 PM
Jesus said God was the God of the living when he referred to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. IOW, he was saying those guys were alive.

Matt 22:31-33
31 "But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living. "
NASB

They weren't waiting for something to change. They weren't dead. They were alive because God often referred to himself after they physically died as the "God of Abraham". He is the God of the living.

Thanks for that scripture. That does make good sense. 9MarksFan: Good reply also.

9Marksfan
May 14th 2008, 08:26 AM
Well in the old testament it says the dead know nothing.

Don't forget that revelation concerning the afterlife was very much restricted in the OT - and Jews were montomists (?) ie man is one inseparable being - whereas Greeks were dichotomists - man is body and spirit/soul. Leaving aside trichotomists (man is body, soul and spirit), Ecclesiastes' thinking was that dead bodies know nothing - which is of course true! - our bodies do "sleep" in death - yet there are passages which make it clear that the soul was separated from the body, even in OT days.


And somewhere else in the OT, someone actually contacts a dead person, and he asks him, "why have you disturbed my sleep?" (I can't remember where in the scriptures)

Now Samuel said to Saul "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" 1 Sam 28:15 NKJV

Nothing about disturbing from sleep - disturbed from praising God, surely?


But in the NT, Jesus says to the thief on the cross, "This day you shall be with Me in paradise." And a quote from Paul (I think) says, "I would much rather be away from the body for to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

So maybe the state of one's consciousness changed after the resurrection.

No - there was just fuller revelation in the NT - as with everything else! Also, when Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus when he was transfigured, that had to be their glorified, conscious spirits - because Jesus was the FIRST to be raised from the dead, it couldn't have been their resurrection bodies. Someone will say that Elijah never died, because he was taken up to Heaven in a chariot of fire - but there are huge problems with the idea that Elijah in his corrupt, sinful body, entered Heaven, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God - we're simply not told the details and it would be speculation to guess - but Moses did die - why else would Satan dispute with the archangel Michael over his body if he didn't die?

9Marksfan
May 14th 2008, 08:39 AM
Well, via the spiritual/heavenly body - our souls - the bodies Adam and Eve "lost sight of" after eating of the tree. I didn't say or even suggest that the soul remains 'in the grave', just that the sense of "time" could very well be irreverent

Er, irrelevant?


to the spiritual world. In what way does a thousand years compare to eternity ? ...sort of like a 'blink' ? ;) I think 'time' is an issue of the flesh.

There are oodles of Scriptures to indicate that, while not affected by the "ravages" of time or its constraints, eternity is linear, like time - and follows time in a sort of parallel dimension - there was a point in eternity where Jesus left it to take on flesh and die for our sins, be raised from the dead and return when He ascended. Revelation tells us that there was silence in Heaven for about half an hour. It also tells us that the bowls of incenxe that ascend to Heaven are the prayers of the saints. We're told that there is rejoicing in Heaven when one sinner repents. All these things point to two parallel, linear dimesions, that will not cross until Jesus returns to usher in the new heavens and the new earth - time will then be no more and eternity will be the only dimension - for both the redeemed and the lost.....


And I think physical bodies are an issue of the flesh.

But our resurrection bodies will have physical properties too - as Jesus' did - a ghost can't eat fish for breakfast!


From here down you may have to unravel for me because there are many different subjects and opinions of each.


Yes it is :)

Sorry - are you referring to Jesus coming with all His saints?


But also note that at that time, those alive will be "changed" - changed from what and why!

Changed from a body of corruption to a spiritual body - because the kingdom of God in all its fulness is about to be inaugurated and a world without sin means a world where corrupt, sinful bodies cannot exist (I guess you're maybe a pre-tribber and will argue that it's because people have to be changed before Jesus takes them to Heaven - I'd disagree with your eschatology, but agree with your logic - flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God).


flesh is corruptible, it desires, it fears, and it dies.
:)

Amen - but do you agree we get a resurrected body when Jesus returns?


Luke 23:42
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Could be that many Will indeed 'sleep in the earth' until the Lords return.
:)

Sorry, don't see where you're finding that in these verses at all! :confused

IamBill
May 14th 2008, 03:45 PM
(I guess you're maybe a pre-tribber and will argue that it's because people have to be changed before Jesus takes them to Heaven - I'd disagree with your eschatology, but agree with your logic - flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God).

Wow, you have an amazing ability of Assumption and Contradiction.

You can't even keep a sentence in context or what ?
Distinguish a response 'to' from a statement 'of' ?
While putting words Into my mouth, you argue my case, which is basically yours.
That is funny !

You have the right to have fun with that.
But I have the right to not respond to it.

No hard feelings, God bless :)