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merjorg
May 9th 2008, 11:04 PM
First off, I want to say that I've been saved for 2 years and I still have a lot to learn. I'm very glad I found this forum recently. What I like is that I can post some of the questions that have accumulated in my head over the last 2 years and immediately have some input.

My question in this thread can be a touchy one. It's about the so-called "prosperity" gospel. Many people would say Creflo Dollar preaches this style (himself included). I watch him every single morning while getting ready for work and his program has been a blessing.

I have heard some arguments for and against the "prosperity" gospel. To put it briefly:

Against: The gospel is not about us gaining material wealth, it's about us serving the Lord. He gives us what we need to survive and we shouldn't desire more than that. When we seek to gain material belongings, we are looking to satisfy our own wills.

For: The whole King Solomon argument, the fact that Jesus came to give us life more abundantly, etc.

I guess I just want to hear what some thoughts are on either side of this issue.

I guess 2 of the most interesting things I've heard in favor of material prosperity are as follows:

I believe it was Dr. Fred Price that said something like (paraphrasing), "Yes I drive a Bentley. I drive a Bentley! First of all, the Lord has led me to give away about 99 cars to those in need during my lifetime, so I don't believe He's mad that I have a Bentley. Secondly, I was GIVEN the Bentley by a friend who felt led to give me the Bentley."

My church had a visiting pastor who has planted and oversees something like 100 churches in the Philippines and surrounding areas. He also keeps a residence in the United States. He literally works all over the world. He said something like, "In order to travel to these various parts of the world, money is necessary. In fact, it takes quite a lot of money for myself, my team, and my family to go keep these things going and to do the work the Lord has called us to do. So, my heart is not in the money. The money is just one of many tools, but it's a tool that is very necessary. In many cases, without money, certain things can't get done."

Pros/cons of these statements? Other thoughts?

Brother Mark
May 9th 2008, 11:18 PM
How much money did Peter have when he said "Silver and gold have I none. But that which I have I give thee. Stand up and walk."?

Jesus preached pretty hard against love of money. How are we to deal with Job? And what happened to Solomon after he had all that money?

merjorg
May 9th 2008, 11:20 PM
That visiting pastor concluded by saying, "So if you're working for the Lord and your efforts, your heart, and your resources are in God's possession and are going towards spreading the gospel, don't EVER let ANYONE make you feel bad for having money because there's nothing to feel bad about."

merjorg
May 9th 2008, 11:26 PM
How much money did Peter have when he said "Silver and gold have I none. But that which I have I give thee. Stand up and walk."?

Jesus preached pretty hard against love of money. How are we to deal with Job? And what happened to Solomon after he had all that money?

Thanks for the reply, BrotherMark! I guess my response to that would be we certainly do not NEED money or material possessions to advance the gospel. We can walk our local neighborhoods and spread the word. Absolutely. But there are, indeed, many ways to advance the gospel. Now I'm not in a position to argue whether the two men I mentioned actually have a heart for the Lord or not, but it would seem that with 100 successful church plantings that he has dedicated his life on this planet to spreading the gospel. His heart is most definitely in the right place I would think. The thought that occurs to me is, "God might very well give him many MORE millions in order that he may plant 100 MORE churches."

Brother Mark
May 9th 2008, 11:37 PM
That visiting pastor concluded by saying, "So if you're working for the Lord and your efforts, your heart, and your resources are in God's possession and are going towards spreading the gospel, don't EVER let ANYONE make you feel bad for having money because there's nothing to feel bad about."

Having money is not sinful. Loving money is!

1 Tim 6:9-10
9 But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang.
NASB

However, that is balanced a few verses later with..

1 Tim 6:17-19

17 Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. 18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, 19 storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.
NASB

Brother Mark
May 9th 2008, 11:39 PM
Thanks for the reply, BrotherMark! I guess my response to that would be we certainly do not NEED money or material possessions to advance the gospel. We can walk our local neighborhoods and spread the word. Absolutely. But there are, indeed, many ways to advance the gospel. Now I'm not in a position to argue whether the two men I mentioned actually have a heart for the Lord or not, but it would seem that with 100 successful church plantings that he has dedicated his life on this planet to spreading the gospel. His heart is most definitely in the right place I would think. The thought that occurs to me is, "God might very well give him many MORE millions in order that he may plant 100 MORE churches."

God doesn't need money to advance his kingdom. Though he can use it. The question should not be how much money do we need, but how many Pauls, or Peters, or Elishas do we need. One might well ask, where can we get the money for such works. But Jesus, he said "The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few". Jesus wasn't ever concerned about raising money for his efforts. But he was concerned about raising laborers.

merjorg
May 9th 2008, 11:47 PM
God doesn't need money to advance his kingdom. Though he can use it. The question should not be how much money do we need, but how many Pauls, or Peters, or Elishas do we need. One might well ask, where can we get the money for such works. But Jesus, he said "The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few". Jesus wasn't ever concerned about raising money for his efforts. But he was concerned about raising laborers.

Thank you for the wisdom, sir! That was very nicely put... ;)

ARCHER42
May 9th 2008, 11:50 PM
Proverbs states that the LORD is the maker of the rich and the poor. 'However' God prospers you as an individual, its always important to REMEMBER the SOURCE of your prosperity... He Paid for it all by giving His own life on the tree.

I've been around the 'prosperity people'.. when I've had very little and was almost looked down upon by them because I wasnt driving a fancy car, or wearing 400 dollar suits or ordained in a 500 dollar Rolex.. I felt a whisp of condemnation almost coming from them. Thats not right. And not all of the 'prosperity' people were like this. Some have been very good friends with me.

God is not against us having things to enjoy. He's not against wealth either. He 'freely' gives us those things thru the 'provision' of His Son and what He did. The problem arises when people 'make their wealth and materials' a 'status' symbol as a Christian. They make it a
'benchmark' in order to be an 'approved Christian'. That's when it becomes dangerous.

You can't put God in a prosperity formula... I see alot of that on TV..... it's really nonsense and I'll stand by my convictions. God prospers according to His will. He knows how much you can handle and He knows when it could get dangerous for you. He'll direct and give you wisdom accordingly as far as prosperity.

Just remember ... however how much God prospers you.. is to REMEMBER the Source of it.. and Its His Son and what He sacraficed.
To Him be the glory!

merjorg
May 10th 2008, 12:01 AM
That's really good stuff, Archer.

As a relatively young Christian, I suppose many of my viewpoints are still being shaped. The wisdom I take from your guys' posts is that one shouldn't seek to gain money so that he can use it to work for the Lord. One should simply continue serving the Lord and if the Lord chooses to prosper him in that particular way, then it will happen anyways.

I sometimes still get stuck in that mode of thinking where I feel like I have to go out and make certain things happen so that I can serve the Lord better. I need to think more grace and less works. More Him and less me!

Reynolds357
May 11th 2008, 04:39 AM
How much money did Peter have when he said "Silver and gold have I none. But that which I have I give thee. Stand up and walk."?

Jesus preached pretty hard against love of money. How are we to deal with Job? And what happened to Solomon after he had all that money?

The Love of money is the problem, not money. Money is great if used properly. What happened with Job? His wealth was restored how many fold? The story did not end with him poor.

cross crusader
May 11th 2008, 04:51 AM
First off, I want to say that I've been saved for 2 years and I still have a lot to learn. I'm very glad I found this forum recently. What I like is that I can post some of the questions that have accumulated in my head over the last 2 years and immediately have some input.

My question in this thread can be a touchy one. It's about the so-called "prosperity" gospel. Many people would say Creflo Dollar preaches this style (himself included). I watch him every single morning while getting ready for work and his program has been a blessing.

I have heard some arguments for and against the "prosperity" gospel. To put it briefly:

Against: The gospel is not about us gaining material wealth, it's about us serving the Lord. He gives us what we need to survive and we shouldn't desire more than that. When we seek to gain material belongings, we are looking to satisfy our own wills.

For: The whole King Solomon argument, the fact that Jesus came to give us life more abundantly, etc.

I guess I just want to hear what some thoughts are on either side of this issue.

I guess 2 of the most interesting things I've heard in favor of material prosperity are as follows:

I believe it was Dr. Fred Price that said something like (paraphrasing), "Yes I drive a Bentley. I drive a Bentley! First of all, the Lord has led me to give away about 99 cars to those in need during my lifetime, so I don't believe He's mad that I have a Bentley. Secondly, I was GIVEN the Bentley by a friend who felt led to give me the Bentley."

My church had a visiting pastor who has planted and oversees something like 100 churches in the Philippines and surrounding areas. He also keeps a residence in the United States. He literally works all over the world. He said something like, "In order to travel to these various parts of the world, money is necessary. In fact, it takes quite a lot of money for myself, my team, and my family to go keep these things going and to do the work the Lord has called us to do. So, my heart is not in the money. The money is just one of many tools, but it's a tool that is very necessary. In many cases, without money, certain things can't get done."

Pros/cons of these statements? Other thoughts?
i just have one question about the prosperity gospel, feel free anyone if u have the answer to this....
do the Christians in Africa and these tiny villages not have enough faith to become as rich as the bible says( according to every pastor i see on tv.) they are supposed to be? Are they not sowing enough seed? The Bible says He will supply all our needs according to His riches and glory. do we really need a mansion or a hundred thousand dollar car? Or a suit that costs two thousand dollars? I dont know, maybe i am not spiritual enough to have those things. God never promised we would be rich. just wondering what old creflo dollar and rod parsley or maybe even binny hinn would say to that question? i mean according to them, if they sow enough seed regardless of their circumstance they will be blessed how every many fold, depending on which day you watch them, they give.

Revinius
May 11th 2008, 07:05 AM
That visiting pastor concluded by saying, "So if you're working for the Lord and your efforts, your heart, and your resources are in God's possession and are going towards spreading the gospel, don't EVER let ANYONE make you feel bad for having money because there's nothing to feel bad about."

Jesus said it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. I guess God disagrees with this guy.

ProDeo
May 11th 2008, 08:12 AM
Pros/cons of these statements? Other thoughts?

About property and daily needs:

Matt 6:31 Then do not be full of care, saying, What are we to have for food or drink? or, With what may we be clothed?
32 Because the Gentiles go in search of all these things: for your Father in heaven has knowledge that you have need of all these things:
33 But let your first care be for his kingdom and his righteousness; and all these other things will be given to you in addition.

And as a related side-note: IMO it's no accident the West (still) is and for centuries has been the richest part of the World, it might be not related to the actions of nations as a whole but due to the number of devout Christians serving God and praying for their government.

Ed

Revinius
May 11th 2008, 10:59 AM
And as a related side-note: IMO it's no accident the West (still) is and for centuries has been the richest part of the World, it might be not related to the actions of nations as a whole but due to the number of devout Christians serving God and praying for their government.

Ed

I think thats drawing a long bow. ;)

losthorizon
May 11th 2008, 12:46 PM
Keep deception and lies far from me, Give me neither poverty nor riches; Feed me with the food that is my portion. (Prv. 30:8)

ARCHER42
May 11th 2008, 03:56 PM
Keep deception and lies far from me, Give me neither poverty nor riches; Feed me with the food that is my portion. (Prv. 30:8)

Thats a great 'golden' nugget of Scripture..... Thanks for bringing that to light.. I often mediate on that Scripture and I"ve taken and done a word study on those words many times....

Here is another piece of Truth.. taken from the Book of Isaiah...


Behold! (look, see) I have REFINED thee, but not with
SILVER; I have CHOSEN thee in the FURNACE OF AFFLICTION.

For Mine own Sake, even for Mine own sake, will I do it: for how should My name be polluted: and I will not give My glory unto another.

Hearken unto Me, O JACOB AND ISREAL, My called: I am He; I am the first, I also am the last.
Isaiah 48: 10-12

The Refiner's fire is not done with 'silver' and 'gold' but with affliction. This seems to fly in the very face of those who hold the 'prosperity' gospel to such an elevated standard or 'benchmark' for being an 'approved Christian.

crawfish
May 11th 2008, 05:04 PM
For: The whole King Solomon argument, the fact that Jesus came to give us life more abundantly, etc.


On the whole King Solomon argument; we need to ask ourselves, WHY did God grant Solomon such incredible riches? I think the answer is in what Solomon did ask for: wisdom. How do we acquire wisdom? By making mistakes. God set Solomon up with power and material possessions in abundance for the very purpose of allowing him to make as many mistakes as possible. By the end of his life, Solomon writes of what having unlimited wealth has done for him:


I denied myself nothing my eyes desired;
I refused my heart no pleasure.
My heart took delight in all my work,
and this was the reward for all my labor. Yet when I surveyed all that my hands had done
and what I had toiled to achieve,
everything was meaningless, a chasing after the wind;
nothing was gained under the sun.



I believe it was Dr. Fred Price that said something like (paraphrasing), "Yes I drive a Bentley. I drive a Bentley! First of all, the Lord has led me to give away about 99 cars to those in need during my lifetime, so I don't believe He's mad that I have a Bentley. Secondly, I was GIVEN the Bentley by a friend who felt led to give me the Bentley."

It isn't money that is the sin; it is the love of money. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with having material possessions, as long as one recognizes that he or she is only a steward of those possessions and not the owner; when you begin to fear the loss of what you have more than you fear the Lord, then your spiritual life is out of balance.

My problem with the "prosperity gospel" isn't that people have money. It's that it celebrates money and possessions; it implies that they are a reward from God for being righteous, which has the reverse implication that those without many possessions are somehow less righteous. Jesus favored - the apostles - lived their lives without much money, and all but one were killed for their efforts. If the Apostles lived with this, then why are we so arrogant to think that we deserve better?

HisGrace
May 11th 2008, 09:44 PM
God doesn't need money to advance his kingdom. What?? Have you ever watched James Robison's programme on how many hundreds of water wells they have dug in Africa and the amount of food his missions work provides for them?

TV ministry requires millions and millions of dollars because they don't have commercial sponsors to pay for air time. Money has to come from donations.

Many of these ministries help hospitals, children's homes, other medical outreach work and disaster relief in third world countries and America, not forgetting to mention the spreading of the gospel throughout the world. Paying staff and transporation doesn't come cheap either.


A small sample or their work. We never hear about such endeavours on prosperity bashing sites. This is from James Robison's site -

"This year LIFE will work to fund the drilling, construction and completion of 200 new water wells across the continent of Africa. Since the beginning of our worldwide outreach, we have completed over 1000 new water wells across 25 different nations.

With the average cost of each well at $4,800 (US), this means that a young, malnourished child can receive clean water for a lifetime for as little as $4.80.

Mission Feeding
Today in Africa, millions people face starvation and death. But through LIFE's extensive Mission Feeding program, hundreds of thousands receive emergency food supplies to sustain them through famine, drought, war, and other difficult times. "

Brother Mark
May 11th 2008, 09:50 PM
What?? Have you ever watched James Robison's programme on how many hundreds of water wells they have dug in Africa and the amount of food his missions work provides for them?

TV ministry requires millions and millions of dollars because they don't have commercial sponsors to pay for air time. Money has to come from donations.

Many of these ministries help hospitals, children's homes, other medical outreach work and disaster relief in third world countries and America, not forgetting to mention the spreading of the gospel throughout the world. Paying staff and transporation doesn't come cheap either.


A small sample or their work. We never hear about such endeavours on prosperity bashing sites. This is from James Robison's site -

"This year LIFE will work to fund the drilling, construction and completion of 200 new water wells across the continent of Africa. Since the beginning of our worldwide outreach, we have completed over 1000 new water wells across 25 different nations.

With the average cost of each well at $4,800 (US), this means that a young, malnourished child can receive clean water for a lifetime for as little as $4.80.

Mission Feeding
Today in Africa, millions people face starvation and death. But through LIFE's extensive Mission Feeding program, hundreds of thousands receive emergency food supplies to sustain them through famine, drought, war, and other difficult times. "

I am not discounting giving to the poor. Paul and Christ both taught such things. We are to do that and that is part of the kingdom. But God doesn't have to have money to further his kingdom.

How much money did Jesus need to feed the 5000? How much money did Elijah need to bring water to Israel?

Money is something God uses. But it is not something he HAS to use. There are plenty of other means to accomplish his goals. Please do not confuse the statement I made in response to prosperity gospel teaching, to mean that God will never use money. He has and will again. However, it is not what he needs or desires most. How many folks could be fed if we had more Phillips? Or how much water could be brought if we had more Elijahs? I say, God desires to have more Phillips and Elijahs than he does money. Jesus, looking out over the multitudes did not say "O pray that God will give us money to use". Instead he said "pray that God will send laborers". Some labor through giving, and let's not discount that labor.

cross crusader
May 11th 2008, 09:55 PM
About property and daily needs:

Matt 6:31 Then do not be full of care, saying, What are we to have for food or drink? or, With what may we be clothed?
32 Because the Gentiles go in search of all these things: for your Father in heaven has knowledge that you have need of all these things:
33 But let your first care be for his kingdom and his righteousness; and all these other things will be given to you in addition.

And as a related side-note: IMO it's no accident the West (still) is and for centuries has been the richest part of the World, it might be not related to the actions of nations as a whole but due to the number of devout Christians serving God and praying for their government.

Ed
is that why the Roman Empire was so rich too? Or the Egyptians? just wondering....

HisGrace
May 11th 2008, 10:21 PM
How much money did Jesus need to feed the 5000? I haven't heard anything like that to-day.

Why did Jesus need a treasurer, who happened to be Judas, to handle his money?

Acts 4:34-35And so it turned out that not a person among them was needy. Those who owned fields or houses sold them and brought the price of the sale to the apostles and made an offering of it. The apostles then distributed it according to each person's need.

36-37Joseph, called by the apostles "Barnabas" (which means "Son of Comfort"), a Levite born in Cyprus, sold a field that he owned, brought the money, and made an offering of it to the apostles.

- Everyone's needs were fulfilled. This was done with money.

1 Corinthians 16: 1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

-Looks like John was wanting them to prosper in three different areas, to fulfill ALL of their needs.

moonglow
May 11th 2008, 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by Brother Mark
How much money did Peter have when he said "Silver and gold have I none. But that which I have I give thee. Stand up and walk."?

Jesus preached pretty hard against love of money. How are we to deal with Job? And what happened to Solomon after he had all that money?


The Love of money is the problem, not money. Money is great if used properly. What happened with Job? His wealth was restored how many fold? The story did not end with him poor.

Brother Mark didn't ask what happened to Job...he said 'how are we to deal with Job?"...he asked 'what happened to Solomon' who was much richer then Job for sure. Solomon ended up very wicked...:( And Job...when we look at what he grieved the most for that he lost, it wasn't his riches, it was his children. Yes they were restored but not those children...they were lost. Him and his wife just had more children. That doesn't replace the ones lost those. That is like telling someone who lost a child..'oh you can always have another baby'...its a terrible thing to say to them..a stab in the heart. Considering what Job went through..I kind of doubt any of us would want to lose everything just to experience having it restored again. Most of Jobs riches were livestock anyway. Back then having alot of life stock meant you were rich! (also having alot of children meant you were rich and blessed by God then too)

Job 1
2 He had seven sons and three daughters. 3 He owned 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 teams of oxen, and 500 female donkeys. He also had many servants. He was, in fact, the richest person in that entire area.

It would be kind of funny now if someone prayed to be rich and then found their backyard filled with life stock and alot of children running around....lol.

God bless

Brother Mark
May 11th 2008, 10:33 PM
I haven't heard anything like that to-day.

Sad isn't it. When the church goes after money, we won't hear as much about it today.



Why did Jesus need a treasurer, who happened to be Judas, to handle his money?As I said before, he used money. But didn't need it. And guess who he let keep the treasury? A thief! He knew he was thief and let him have it. He knew Judas pilfered through the money and stole it. Yet, Jesus never confronted him about it. Why? Because Jesus didn't love money.


Acts 4:34-35And so it turned out that not a person among them was needy. Those who owned fields or houses sold them and brought the price of the sale to the apostles and made an offering of it. The apostles then distributed it according to each person's need.

36-37Joseph, called by the apostles "Barnabas" (which means "Son of Comfort"), a Levite born in Cyprus, sold a field that he owned, brought the money, and made an offering of it to the apostles.

- Everyone's needs were fulfilled. This was done with money.Yep. God uses money. Doesn't need it though. ;) That's the whole point. People going after "these things" instead of the kingdom is what Jesus preached against. What's interesting is when they start going after the kingdom, they start giving away "these things". Oh, and they don't mind being stole from either.


1 Corinthians 16: 1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

-Looks like John was wanted them to prosper in three different areas, to fulfill ALL of their needs.Only after the prospering of the soul. There are plenty of passages concerning prosperity and I have quoted them too. But God doesn't love money nor should we. A man can't serve two masters. Want to know what God said about money?

1 Tim 6:9-10
9 But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang.
NASB

So then, the question becomes "Do you want to be rich?" If the desire is to be rich, then beware of the many temptations and snares that will accompany it. If God makes you rich, praise the Lord. To seek after wealth is to ignore the call of the Kingdom. For man cannot serve both God and mammon.

ARCHER42
May 11th 2008, 10:44 PM
So then, the question becomes "Do you want to be rich?" If the desire is to be rich, then beware of the many temptations and snares that will accompany it. If God makes you rich, praise the Lord. To seek after wealth is to ignore the call of the Kingdom. For man cannot serve both God and mammon.


Very well put.. thank you.

tgallison
May 11th 2008, 11:27 PM
Brother Mark didn't ask what happened to Job...he said 'how are we to deal with Job?"...he asked 'what happened to Solomon' who was much richer then Job for sure. Solomon ended up very wicked...:( And Job...when we look at what he grieved the most for that he lost, it wasn't his riches, it was his children. Yes they were restored but not those children...they were lost. Him and his wife just had more children. That doesn't replace the ones lost those. That is like telling someone who lost a child..'oh you can always have another baby'...its a terrible thing to say to them..a stab in the heart. Considering what Job went through..I kind of doubt any of us would want to lose everything just to experience having it restored again. Most of Jobs riches were livestock anyway. Back then having alot of life stock meant you were rich! (also having alot of children meant you were rich and blessed by God then too)

Job 1
2 He had seven sons and three daughters. 3 He owned 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 teams of oxen, and 500 female donkeys. He also had many servants. He was, in fact, the richest person in that entire area.

It would be kind of funny now if someone prayed to be rich and then found their backyard filled with life stock and alot of children running around....lol.

God bless

Jobs wealth was doubled because it was a picture of Job's salvation, and how much more we will have in heaven, then what this world offers. His children were not doubled, because no one will be having children in heaven. The number of children he had in this life was restored.

Brother Mark
May 11th 2008, 11:34 PM
His children were not doubled, because no one will be having children in heaven. The number of children he had in this life was restored.

Also, he will be seeing his children in heaven. He never really lost them as they are eternal. But let's not sidetrack this thread. It's about prosperity and how it relates biblically.

ProjectPeter
May 12th 2008, 12:30 AM
That's really good stuff, Archer.

As a relatively young Christian, I suppose many of my viewpoints are still being shaped. The wisdom I take from your guys' posts is that one shouldn't seek to gain money so that he can use it to work for the Lord. One should simply continue serving the Lord and if the Lord chooses to prosper him in that particular way, then it will happen anyways.

I sometimes still get stuck in that mode of thinking where I feel like I have to go out and make certain things happen so that I can serve the Lord better. I need to think more grace and less works. More Him and less me!You can do nothing save what God has equipped you to do. Always remember that and read and meditate on 2 Peter 1:1-11. :)

ProjectPeter
May 12th 2008, 12:32 AM
i just have one question about the prosperity gospel, feel free anyone if u have the answer to this....
do the Christians in Africa and these tiny villages not have enough faith to become as rich as the bible says( according to every pastor i see on tv.) they are supposed to be? Are they not sowing enough seed? The Bible says He will supply all our needs according to His riches and glory. do we really need a mansion or a hundred thousand dollar car? Or a suit that costs two thousand dollars? I dont know, maybe i am not spiritual enough to have those things. God never promised we would be rich. just wondering what old creflo dollar and rod parsley or maybe even binny hinn would say to that question? i mean according to them, if they sow enough seed regardless of their circumstance they will be blessed how every many fold, depending on which day you watch them, they give.In short... no. The messages preached by many today of the prosperity type are messages for America and the West. It only works here by and large and the preachers know it. That is why when they go to say places like Africa... they tweak that message to say more chickens, rice, and whatnot. If the message was "gospel" then the message would work everywhere. :)

ProjectPeter
May 12th 2008, 12:33 AM
Jesus said it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. I guess God disagrees with this guy.Now you're just jumping in a different ditch because you leave off a very important part of what Jesus said. With man... it is impossible but with God... all things are possible. Even that camel going through the eye of a needle. While I don't endorse for a second much of the nonsense preached today on this topic... let's keep it biblically real. :)

ProjectPeter
May 12th 2008, 12:35 AM
About property and daily needs:

Matt 6:31 Then do not be full of care, saying, What are we to have for food or drink? or, With what may we be clothed?
32 Because the Gentiles go in search of all these things: for your Father in heaven has knowledge that you have need of all these things:
33 But let your first care be for his kingdom and his righteousness; and all these other things will be given to you in addition.

And as a related side-note: IMO it's no accident the West (still) is and for centuries has been the richest part of the World, it might be not related to the actions of nations as a whole but due to the number of devout Christians serving God and praying for their government.

EdNow hang on a sec... I'll tell you the same thing I told the person in my previous post. Keep it biblically real. What are "these things" that Jesus was speaking of. Food... clothing. His examples being the sparrows and the flowers. He isn't speaking of Bentley's and Roll's and multi million dollar mansions. And yes... that is the stuff these guys often preach.

ProjectPeter
May 12th 2008, 12:36 AM
Keep deception and lies far from me, Give me neither poverty nor riches; Feed me with the food that is my portion. (Prv. 30:8)Spoken by the richest king to ever rule Israel. ;)

ProjectPeter
May 12th 2008, 12:38 AM
What?? Have you ever watched James Robison's programme on how many hundreds of water wells they have dug in Africa and the amount of food his missions work provides for them?

TV ministry requires millions and millions of dollars because they don't have commercial sponsors to pay for air time. Money has to come from donations.

Many of these ministries help hospitals, children's homes, other medical outreach work and disaster relief in third world countries and America, not forgetting to mention the spreading of the gospel throughout the world. Paying staff and transporation doesn't come cheap either.


A small sample or their work. We never hear about such endeavours on prosperity bashing sites. This is from James Robison's site -

"This year LIFE will work to fund the drilling, construction and completion of 200 new water wells across the continent of Africa. Since the beginning of our worldwide outreach, we have completed over 1000 new water wells across 25 different nations.

With the average cost of each well at $4,800 (US), this means that a young, malnourished child can receive clean water for a lifetime for as little as $4.80.

Mission Feeding
Today in Africa, millions people face starvation and death. But through LIFE's extensive Mission Feeding program, hundreds of thousands receive emergency food supplies to sustain them through famine, drought, war, and other difficult times. "I love James Robinson and Betty. I know when I see them that their heart is for those folks... I really do. But you know what... the MILLIONS that those guys spend on those television shows... would dig a bunch of wells and whatnot for folks in Africa and honestly... God don't need no television. If they are for real (I do believe they are) then the money would come to them for the work that they do. To boot... they could in turn use that money they spend to put their show on the air to dig even more. My prayer... one day they understand that.

ProjectPeter
May 12th 2008, 12:40 AM
Jobs wealth was doubled because it was a picture of Job's salvation, and how much more we will have in heaven, then what this world offers. His children were not doubled, because no one will be having children in heaven. The number of children he had in this life was restored.I'll bite. How in the world was this the picture of "Job's salvation"?

ProjectPeter
May 12th 2008, 12:41 AM
I haven't heard anything like that to-day.

Why did Jesus need a treasurer, who happened to be Judas, to handle his money?

Acts 4:34-35And so it turned out that not a person among them was needy. Those who owned fields or houses sold them and brought the price of the sale to the apostles and made an offering of it. The apostles then distributed it according to each person's need.

36-37Joseph, called by the apostles "Barnabas" (which means "Son of Comfort"), a Levite born in Cyprus, sold a field that he owned, brought the money, and made an offering of it to the apostles.

- Everyone's needs were fulfilled. This was done with money.

1 Corinthians 16: 1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

-Looks like John was wanting them to prosper in three different areas, to fulfill ALL of their needs.
Uh... and Barnabas, when he sold all that there land and gave that money... had no more. ;) Giving it away isn't the treasure pot at the end of the rainbow when one expects to get it back. These guys were preached the same message that Christ preached... in a nutshell... IT IS ABOUT ETERNITY STUPID! Get rid of that wealth, come, and follow me. That's the treasure chest... what is stored in heaven for you. What is down here... matters not a whit. :)

HisGrace
May 12th 2008, 12:50 AM
As I said before, he used money. But didn't need it. And guess who he let keep the treasury? A thief! He knew he was thief and let him have it. He knew Judas pilfered through the money and stole it. Yet, Jesus never confronted him about it. Why? Because Jesus didn't love money. If Jesus used money he must have needed it.

What about the coin he used from the fish's mouth to pay his taxes?

John 4:7-8 A woman, a Samaritan, came to draw water. Jesus said, "Would you give me a drink of water?" (His disciples had gone to the village to buy food for lunch.)

Jesus never rebuked Judas nor Peter for betraying him neither. That just shows he left their judgment up to God.

ProjectPeter
May 12th 2008, 12:52 AM
If Jesus used money he must have needed it.

What about the coin he used from the fish's mouth to pay his taxes?

John 4:7-8 A woman, a Samaritan, came to draw water. Jesus said, "Would you give me a drink of water?" (His disciples had gone to the village to buy food for lunch.)

Jesus never rebuked Judas nor Peter for betraying him neither. That just shows he left their judgment up to God.
The point of the fish wasn't that Jesus needed money. The point of that was it was a sad reality that Jesus did need it for ministry AND it showed how Jesus didn't need to send out a mass letter or mass appeal to an audience... he simply told Peter to go and pull it out of a fish mouth. So not a strong argument there. ;)

tgallison
May 12th 2008, 12:59 AM
Also, he will be seeing his children in heaven. He never really lost them as they are eternal. But let's not sidetrack this thread. It's about prosperity and how it relates biblically.

Brother Mark

I believe it was you that brought up Job, and where does it say he will see his children in Heaven?

But back to the thread.

Ecclesiastes 5:19 "Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labor; this is the gift of God."

Ecclesiastes 5:12 "The sleep of a labouring man is sweet, whether he eat little or much: but the abundance of the rich wil not suffer him to sleep."

Proverbs 13:11 "Wealth gotten by vanity shall be diminished: but he that gathereth by labor shall increase."

Proverbs 22:4 "By humility and the fear of the Lord are riches, and honor and life."

Proverbs 28:6 "Better is the poor that walketh in his uprightness, than he that is perverse in his ways though he be rich."

Proverbs 28:20,22 "A faithful man shall abound with blessings: but he that maketh haste to be rich shall not be innocent.- He that hasteth to be rich hath an evil eye, and considereth not that poverty shall come upon him."

Jeremiah 5:26-27 "For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men. As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich."

Math 19:23 "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Luke 1:53 "He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away."

Luke 6:24 "But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation."

Luke 12:21 "So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward god."

Sorry if I repeated verses already posted did not check.

tgallison
May 12th 2008, 01:03 AM
I'll bite. How in the world was this the picture of "Job's salvation"?

Sorry I will have to reply on another thread. I have been chastised.

HisGrace
May 12th 2008, 01:03 AM
I love James Robinson and Betty. I know when I see them that their heart is for those folks... I really do. But you know what... the MILLIONS that those guys spend on those television shows... would dig a bunch of wells and whatnot for folks in Africa and honestly... God don't need no television. TV is a very powerful medium. How else are we supposed to know about the need for these wells? I am sure at least 90% of their funds have come through television. Besides, sometimes they have some very inspirational guests on their programme. They do lots to spread the Word and saving grace of God. If it weren't for TV I wouldn't even know who these people are.

HisGrace
May 12th 2008, 01:09 AM
The point of the fish wasn't that Jesus needed money. Again Jesus used money, so he must have needed it.

When I go to the store the clerk isn't going to tell me that I don't need any money to pay for my food.:hmm:

ProjectPeter
May 12th 2008, 01:22 AM
TV is a very powerful medium. How else are we supposed to know about the need for these wells? I am sure at least 90% of their funds have come through television. Besides, sometimes they have some very inspirational guests on their programme. They do lots to spread the Word and saving grace of God. If it weren't for TV I wouldn't even know who these people are.Ye of little faith. ;) If they are doing the work of the Lord (and as I said... I do believe they do a good work) then you'd know if God wanted you to know. It works that way... called faith... called God's way.

Television isn't the all powerful medium that many make it out to be... it is a safe medium. That's another topic though and not all to do with prosperity so I won't go there. :lol:

ProjectPeter
May 12th 2008, 01:23 AM
Again Jesus used money, so he must have needed it.

When I go to the store the clerk isn't going to tell me that I don't need any money to pay for my food.:hmm:Um... what would you do if you had no money to pay for food? Live on wishing you had a dollar or live on faith? And no... Jesus didn't need money. Jesus gave them that money so as to appease the whiny religious folk wanting their precious temple tax. ;)

moonglow
May 12th 2008, 01:26 AM
The point of the fish wasn't that Jesus needed money. The point of that was it was a sad reality that Jesus did need it for ministry AND it showed how Jesus didn't need to send out a mass letter or mass appeal to an audience... he simply told Peter to go and pull it out of a fish mouth. So not a strong argument there. ;)

Wasn't that coin used to pay Peter's and His taxes? Apparently they didn't have any money or Jesus wouldn't have needed to do that, right?

Matthew 17

Payment of the Temple Tax
24 On their arrival in Capernaum, the collectors of the Temple tax came to Peter and asked him, “Doesn’t your teacher pay the Temple tax?”

25 “Yes, he does,” Peter replied. Then he went into the house.

But before he had a chance to speak, Jesus asked him, “What do you think, Peter? Do kings tax their own people or the people they have conquered?”

26 “They tax the people they have conquered,” Peter replied.

“Well, then,” Jesus said, “the citizens are free! 27 However, we don’t want to offend them, so go down to the lake and throw in a line. Open the mouth of the first fish you catch, and you will find a large silver coin. Take it and pay the tax for both of us.”

Interesting how Jesus put that...:hmm:

God bless

ProjectPeter
May 12th 2008, 01:28 AM
They may or may not have had some in the bag... no clue. Peter I figure learned a lesson though that next day when he caught that fish. ;)

moonglow
May 12th 2008, 01:29 AM
Um... what would you do if you had no money to pay for food? Live on wishing you had a dollar or live on faith? And no... Jesus didn't need money. Jesus gave them that money so as to appease the whiny religious folk wanting their precious temple tax. ;)

lol...ok you posted that apparently while I was posting about it too...so never mind you answered my question!

oh...edit here.(a thought)..no Jesus didn't need money...He fed how many thousands several times using no money at all...the time He 'used' money was to do His work in this world...but not because He really needed it in anyway. Why would God need money? A human thing? He doesn't.

God bless

HisGrace
May 12th 2008, 01:36 AM
Wasn't that coin used to pay Peter's and His taxes? Apparently they didn't have any money or Jesus wouldn't have needed to do that, right? It is thought that Jesus didn't want to dip into the mission funds to pay the taxes. The Bible says that they did have a treasury.

Brother Mark
May 12th 2008, 01:58 AM
Um... what would you do if you had no money to pay for food? Live on wishing you had a dollar or live on faith? And no... Jesus didn't need money. Jesus gave them that money so as to appease the whiny religious folk wanting their precious temple tax. ;)

Exactly right. That was about appeasing the tax collector. Not about needing money for ministry.

Brother Mark
May 12th 2008, 01:59 AM
It is thought that Jesus didn't want to dip into the mission funds to pay the taxes. The Bible says that they did have a treasury.

Dipping into the treasury would have been meaningless. Just go catch another fish and get the coin out.

Did Jesus love money? How often did he preach against loving money? How many times did he say not to seek after it?

moonglow
May 12th 2008, 02:30 AM
It is thought that Jesus didn't want to dip into the mission funds to pay the taxes. The Bible says that they did have a treasury.

I don't know..I only found one verse about it:

John 13:29
Since Judas was their treasurer, some thought Jesus was telling him to go and pay for the food or to give some money to the poor.

God bless

Brother Mark
May 12th 2008, 02:37 AM
If Jesus used money he must have needed it.

What about the coin he used from the fish's mouth to pay his taxes?

John 4:7-8 A woman, a Samaritan, came to draw water. Jesus said, "Would you give me a drink of water?" (His disciples had gone to the village to buy food for lunch.)

Jesus never rebuked Judas nor Peter for betraying him neither. That just shows he left their judgment up to God.

Oh yea, he rebuked Peter several times. He gave Peter a strong warning about the coming denial. But as for Judas, nary a word ever about being a thief. Just let him steel from the treasury without one rebuke. Why didn't Jesus stop Judas from steeling that which went to the poor? Perhaps because Jesus wasn't trusting in money to provide for the poor.

ProDeo
May 12th 2008, 09:00 AM
is that why the Roman Empire was so rich too? Or the Egyptians? just wondering....

I did not say other nations can't be rich. But throughout history it's a remarkable pattern that nations based on the Bible were prosper. To begin with Abraham. God promised the Israelites a land of milk and honey and as long as Israel obeyed God it was prosper. When the reformation started in 1517 with Luther ending the false religion of Rome Europe flourished. Nowadays USA is the richest country in the world.

It's Biblical, read the whole chapter of Deuteronomy 28

1 If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth.

2 All these blessings will come upon you and accompany you if you obey the LORD your God:

3 You will be blessed in the city and blessed in the country.

4 The fruit of your womb will be blessed, and the crops of your land and the young of your livestock—the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.

5 Your basket and your kneading trough will be blessed.

6 You will be blessed when you come in and blessed when you go out.

.....

Ed

ProDeo
May 12th 2008, 09:17 AM
Now hang on a sec... I'll tell you the same thing I told the person in my previous post. Keep it biblically real. What are "these things" that Jesus was speaking of. Food... clothing. His examples being the sparrows and the flowers. He isn't speaking of Bentley's and Roll's and multi million dollar mansions. And yes... that is the stuff these guys often preach.

I know what these guys preach and it's a total distortion of the Bible. But read Deuteronomy 28, God blesses nations that obey him, see also my previous posting. There is a relationship serving God as a nation and being blessed as a nation as a result.

Ed

ProjectPeter
May 12th 2008, 12:34 PM
lol...ok you posted that apparently while I was posting about it too...so never mind you answered my question!

oh...edit here.(a thought)..no Jesus didn't need money...He fed how many thousands several times using no money at all...the time He 'used' money was to do His work in this world...but not because He really needed it in anyway. Why would God need money? A human thing? He doesn't.

God blessRight... if money was needed for whatever... go fishing... he could have turned a rock into gold. Now... keep in mind that giving allows us to minister to others and that's a great thing. Even other ministries. Jesus obviously took in money and food etc... and I don't think He would have ever denied someone from ministering to them by giving. But this is a stretch to compare the things that Jesus took in to say the 100 million a year that many of these ministries are taking in today.

ProjectPeter
May 12th 2008, 12:40 PM
It is thought that Jesus didn't want to dip into the mission funds to pay the taxes. The Bible says that they did have a treasury.What it says is that Judas was the one in charge of the money bag. ;) We try and equate that today with the multi-million dollar treasuries with bank accounts, stocks and bonds... we really do a disservice to the ministry of Christ.

ProjectPeter
May 12th 2008, 12:41 PM
I know what these guys preach and it's a total distortion of the Bible. But read Deuteronomy 28, God blesses nations that obey him, see also my previous posting. There is a relationship serving God as a nation and being blessed as a nation as a result.

EdSure... no question of that. But we're talking about those distortions and the couple of folks mentioned by the OP are in fact pretty much king in that arena truth be told.

Revinius
May 12th 2008, 01:48 PM
I know what these guys preach and it's a total distortion of the Bible. But read Deuteronomy 28, God blesses nations that obey him, see also my previous posting. There is a relationship serving God as a nation and being blessed as a nation as a result.

Ed

I dont know of any nation that serves Jesus today.

HisGrace
May 12th 2008, 04:15 PM
Oh yea, he rebuked Peter several times. He gave Peter a strong warning about the coming denial. But as for Judas, nary a word ever about being a thief. Just let him steel from the treasury without one rebuke. Why didn't Jesus stop Judas from steeling that which went to the poor? Perhaps because Jesus wasn't trusting in money to provide for the poor.

All Jesus said to Judas when he betrayed him with a kiss was " Judas, you would betray the Son of Man with a kiss?"

When Peter denied him, all Jesus did was turn and looked at Peter.

When Herodias' daughter danced for King Herod and demanded the head of John the Baptist on a platter, Jesus didn't say a word.

I can't get my mind around this theory that even though Jesus had money, he didn't need money. Why didn't he just get rid of his treasury and twitch his nose everytime he needed some cash?..:hmm:

Also, I am wondering how many would refuse the gift of a new Bentley if they were offered one?.http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/graemlins/cool_shades.gif


The Love of money is the problem, not money. Money is great if used properly. What happened with Job? His wealth was restored how many fold? The story did not end with him poor.I rest my case.:amen:

ProjectPeter
May 12th 2008, 04:22 PM
All Jesus said to Judas when he betrayed him with a kiss was " Judas, you would betray the Son of Man with a kiss?"

When Peter denied him, all Jesus did was turn and looked at Peter.

When Herodias' daughter danced for King Herod and demanded the head of John the Baptist on a platter, Jesus didn't say a word.

I can't get my mind around this theory that even though Jesus had money, he didn't need money. Why didn't he just get rid of his treasury and twitch his nose everytime he needed some cash?..:hmm:

Also, I am wondering how many would refuse the gift of a new Bentley if they were offered one?.http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/graemlins/cool_shades.gif

I rest my case.:amen:
Ahh... the "would Jesus refuse a Bentley" thing!

If he took it... he wouldn't be riding around in it. He would have simply sold it and given it to the poor. If not... Jesus would have been horribly inconsistent.

Brother Mark
May 12th 2008, 04:24 PM
All Jesus said to Judas when he betrayed him with a kiss was " Judas, you would betray the Son of Man with a kiss?"

But never about money. Not one time did Jesus ever confront Judas about stealing money from the treasury. Now, if he was so concerned about a coin being lost from the treasury, that he caught a fish to keep from dipping into it, you think he might confront Judas since he obviously took far more than one coin?


When Peter denied him, all Jesus did was turn and looked at Peter.He confronted him way before the act was actually done.

Matt 26:34-35
34 Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you that this very night, before a cock crows, you shall deny Me three times."
NASB

And then even took him into the garden so that Peter might pray and be spared the failure.

Matt 26:41
41 "Keep watching and praying, that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."
NASB

The looking at Peter was the final rebuke. As soon as the cock crowed, Jesus looked at Peter. And Peter was reminded of the earlier rebuke.

Luke 22:60-62
And immediately, while he was still speaking, a cock crowed. 61 And the Lord turned and looked at Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how He had told him, "Before a cock crows today, you will deny Me three times."
NASB



I can't get my mind around this theory that even though Jesus had money, he didn't need money. Why didn't he just get rid of his treasury and twitch his nose everytime he needed some cash?..:hmm:The point is he didn't need money for ministry. He used it. But what is recorded far more about Jesus and his ministry? Did the scriptures record a LOT about how Jesus used his money? No. Why? Because he didn't love money. He used it properly. He taught against loving money. He spoke harshly against those that loved it. He taught the rich young ruler to give ALL his money away and to come and follow Him. There are many examples in scripture where God used money for ministry, but it is not required.

If money is necessary for ministry, does that mean that poor people cannot minister?


Also, I am wondering how many would refuse the gift of a new Bentley if they were offered one?.http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/graemlins/cool_shades.gif

I rest my case.:amen:
There is nothing wrong with owning a Bently. But be warned, Jesus spoke very hard about the love of money. One desiring to be rich is also warned in scripture. Jesus flat out preached against even being concerned about money in the sermon on the mount.

How many verses about money you want me to quote?

HisGrace
May 12th 2008, 09:26 PM
But never about money. Not one time did Jesus ever confront Judas about stealing money from the treasury.
The point you are trying to make is that Judas didn't confront Judas because it was about money. He simply let him know what had been done after the kiss; he didn't confront him.. He didn't condemn Peter after his denial and he didn't confront Herodias' daughter after she demanded John the Baptist's head on a platter. He didn't condemn the Samaritan worman at the well, nor did he condemn the woman caught in adultery. He didn't judge; it was up to God.

Jesus didn't want people to use money as idolatry, as explained in the sermon on the mount, but encouraged people to give to the needy. He resented anything that took first place over him in their lives. If money becomes a god, you can't be trusted with it.

From the sermon on the mount -

Matthew7: 7 “Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 “You parents—if your children ask for a loaf of bread, do you give them a stone instead? 10 Or if they ask for a fish, do you give them a snake? Of course not! 11 So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask him.

moonglow
May 13th 2008, 02:51 PM
The point you are trying to make is that Judas didn't confront Judas because it was about money. He simply let him know what had been done after the kiss; he didn't confront him..

Jesus words to Judas was enough...why else do you think Judas went and hung himself later? Image these words from the Son of God Himself being said to you:Luke 22:48
But Jesus said to him, “Judas, are you betraying the Son o f Man with a kiss?”


Judas was convicted and knew he did wrong but it was too late. He killed himself.


He didn't condemn Peter after his denial:

quoting Brother Mark here: He confronted him way before the act was actually done.

Matt 26:34-35
34 Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you that this very night, before a cock crows, you shall deny Me three times."
NASB

And then even took him into the garden so that Peter might pray and be spared the failure.

Matt 26:41
41 "Keep watching and praying, that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."
NASB

The looking at Peter was the final rebuke. As soon as the cock crowed, Jesus looked at Peter. And Peter was reminded of the earlier rebuke.

Luke 22:60-62
And immediately, while he was still speaking, a cock crowed. 61 And the Lord turned and looked at Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how He had told him, "Before a cock crows today, you will deny Me three times."62 So Peter went out and wept bitterly.
NASB

Jesus told him in advance what he was going to do...can you image how horrible Peter felt? It says he went out and wept bitterly...over just a look from Jesus! How torn up inside he must of been...being told he would deny Jesus...saying oh I would die first Lord...then doing it! He must have felt just awful. Anyway I am not sure what you are looking for here or how Jesus not sending flames of fire down on Peter or Judas has to do with this type of teaching in the first place. His word and just a look was enough to convict anyone.



and he didn't confront Herodias' daughter after she demanded John the Baptist's head on a platter. He didn't condemn the Samaritan worman at the well, nor did he condemn the woman caught in adultery. He didn't judge; it was up to God.

I still don't understand your thinking here as to what this has to do with this type of teaching...what's the connection?


Jesus didn't want people to use money as idolatry, as explained in the sermon on the mount, but encouraged people to give to the needy. He resented anything that took first place over him in their lives. If money becomes a god, you can't be trusted with it.

From the sermon on the mount -

Matthew7: 7 “Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 “You parents—if your children ask for a loaf of bread, do you give them a stone instead? 10 Or if they ask for a fish, do you give them a snake? Of course not! 11 So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask him.

Do you think this passage has to do with asking for money or riches? Since Jesus talked alot about spiritual things don't you think we would be asking for spiritual things from Him in regards to this passage? Such as praying for patience, endurance during a difficult time in our lives, more faith, wisdom in understanding His Word and so on. And yes sometimes we pray for things we 'need' such a work, a new car because ours broke down, health problems and so forth but considering how much Jesus spoke against material wealth I think it would be wrong to pray to be rich. I really do! I just see no examples of praying to be wealthy in the material sense in the bible at all. No one needs to be rich. Having an abundant life does not mean being rich either. Paul said to be content in any situation you were in..including in poverty.

God bless

Brother Mark
May 13th 2008, 03:00 PM
The point you are trying to make is that Judas didn't confront Judas because it was about money. He simply let him know what had been done after the kiss; he didn't confront him.. He didn't condemn Peter after his denial and he didn't confront Herodias' daughter after she demanded John the Baptist's head on a platter. He didn't condemn the Samaritan worman at the well, nor did he condemn the woman caught in adultery. He didn't judge; it was up to God.

Herodias daughter wasn't his. Nor was Judas his. Peter was. That's your out on the confrontation. He did rebuke Peter many times. ;)


Jesus didn't want people to use money as idolatry, as explained in the sermon on the mount, but encouraged people to give to the needy. He resented anything that took first place over him in their lives. If money becomes a god, you can't be trusted with it.Correct. We are also warned against seeking wealth. And we are warned greatly against loving money.




From the sermon on the mount -

Matthew7: 7 “Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 “You parents—if your children ask for a loaf of bread, do you give them a stone instead? 10 Or if they ask for a fish, do you give them a snake? Of course not! 11 So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask him.
Interesting. Do you consider money a good gift and that is what he is referring to? He is speaking of much more than money! The sermon on the mount actually tells us not to even worry about money or to give it much thought at all.

Matt 6:19

19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
NASB

and

Matt 6:25-29
25 "For this reason I say to you, do not be anxious for your life, as to what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor for your body, as to what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body than clothing? 26 "Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? 27 "And which of you by being anxious can add a single cubit to his life's span? 28 "And why are you anxious about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin,
NASB

and

Matt 6:31-33
31 "Do not be anxious then, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'With what shall we clothe ourselves?' 32 "For all these things the Gentiles eagerly seek; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you.
NASB


Now, if we look more into the quote you gave above, we see the same sermon in Luke.

Luke 12:31-34
31 "But seek for His kingdom, and these things shall be added to you. 32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. 33 "Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys. 34 "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
NASB

The gift God gives us is the kingdom. That may or may not include money and wealth. We are commanded to give our possessions away and to not be so concerned with how we will cloth and feed ourselves because he promises to take care of us.

But, if one is seeking after money, then perhaps that is where their heart is. That is the trap of wealth and we are warned against it over and over again in scripture. Look at what it did to Solomon. Of course Job and Abraham handled it well.

Clifton
May 13th 2008, 04:24 PM
Well, I could use a new couch...:lol:

... don't think that would make me prosperous though.:eek:

Blessings.

IamBill
May 13th 2008, 04:44 PM
:lol: with Clifton

***************
Money can corrupt
even said that it is "the root of all evil"
surly it can be a root !

I'm not interested in earthly matters of wealth ;)

HisGrace
May 13th 2008, 06:12 PM
If your kids go to school with holes in their shoes, people are going to wonder what kind of God you serve, and besides your lack of faith would be an embarrassment to God.

Philippians 4:19 And this same God who takes care of me will supply all your needs from his glorious riches, which have been given to us in Christ Jesus.

Brother Mark
May 13th 2008, 06:15 PM
If your kids go to school with holes in their shoes, people are going to wonder what kind of God you serve, and besides your lack of faith would be an embarrassment to God.

Philippians 4:19 And this same God who takes care of me will supply all your needs from his glorious riches, which have been given to us in Christ Jesus.

Baloney. God used several folks that were poor to be an example for us. He lifted them up when others either ignored them or tore them down.

Mark 12:41-44

41 And He sat down opposite the treasury, and began observing how the multitude were putting money into the treasury; and many rich people were putting in large sums. 42 And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which amount to a cent. 43 And calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on. "
NASB

The widow women in poverty, is still spoken of today because of her great faith! Through this womans sacrifice, many have given sacrificially through the years. And in God's accounting, her small amount was WAY more than the rich folks. Why? Because God counts money differently than we do.

I could also mention Lazarus, who begged at the rich man's gates. God though enough of him to put his life in scriptures to be lifted up for all to read and be warned.

There are many more to discuss.

Now, if we want to know what kind of religions push money, we can look squarely at the Pharisees. They loved money and Jesus often preached against this love of money. But their money was a poor witness for them. Their righteousness was not enough.

IamBill
May 13th 2008, 06:18 PM
If your kids go to school with holes in their shoes, people are going to wonder what kind of God you serve, and besides your lack of faith would be an embarrassment to God.



:eek: ----------------------

ProjectPeter
May 13th 2008, 07:10 PM
If your kids go to school with holes in their shoes, people are going to wonder what kind of God you serve, and besides your lack of faith would be an embarrassment to God.

Philippians 4:19 And this same God who takes care of me will supply all your needs from his glorious riches, which have been given to us in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 11:35 Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, in order that they might obtain a better resurrection;
36 and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment.
37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated
38 (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

Yeah... I mean what sort of God did these people have. Perish the thought!

What you have said right here is EXACTLY how BAD this doctrine has become and that HisGrace.. is truly an embarrassment to God. Many of the people you claim an embarrassment... the world wasn't worthy to behold. :rolleyes:

moonglow
May 13th 2008, 07:19 PM
If your kids go to school with holes in their shoes, people are going to wonder what kind of God you serve, and besides your lack of faith would be an embarrassment to God.

Philippians 4:19 And this same God who takes care of me will supply all your needs from his glorious riches, which have been given to us in Christ Jesus.

Why would they wonder what kind of God He is? My son has gone to school with holes in his shoes and gone to church many times with holes in his pants! Right now he is going to school wearing the same jeans every day and they are stained and have a hole in the knee. He doesn't have too though...he could wear shorts that are clean and have no holes in them but he is stuck on wearing jeans and right now I don't have the money to buy him more jeans. When I don't have the money to replace his shoes or sandles right away I have glued them or sewn them to hold until I had the money. I wear clothes that came from all sorts of strange places, including being sold or given away after someone died....my mom used to work in a nursing home. They aren't in style and aren't fancy by any means but both my son and I have clothes and something on our feet...which IS being provided for..which is ALL God promises actually...that our needs are provided for.

Once in awhile I have some extra money and get a few new clothes..or go to Goodwill and buy them. I don't know why you think that would reflect on God what we wear.

HisGrace...I wasn't going to reply to your posts on here in order to not offend you because you have been so good and faithful in answering my prayers requests on here and I so appreciate that. I know I probably offended you on that other thread about this same subject which I didn't mean too. But now I see I am wrong in worrying about offending you. I need to please God not men (as the bible says) and it pains me to see you 'read into scriptures' words like 'treasures' and 'riches' as being material money things. I would rather offend you then watch you believing what you are believing about these verse..this teaching and be lead astray...because I care about you and think you are a really wonderful person. I have grown more and more concerned in reading your posts that you do not understand what these verses really mean. How can Jesus or His disciples talk against money then promise 'riches' as in money either here on earth or in Heaven? That would be a contradiction. It would mean there were errors in the bible and that it could not be relied upon if this were true.

Do you think there are real treasure chest in Heaven full of gold and diamonds and jewels just waiting for us? What would be the point in having money or these things in Heaven? There won't be any stores to buy things in...those type of treasure would be worthless there. And they really are worthless here too actually.

Jesus was all about the spiritual gifts..the spiritual treasures...not about 'riches' like the world thinks about riches.

I checked a bible commentary on that verse you posted...Paul wasn't talking about money!

Verse 19. My God shall supply all your need
As you have given to me in my distress, God will never suffer you to want without raising up help to you, as he raised you up for help to me.

According to his riches
His fulness is infinite; and through Christ, whose followers we are, he will dispense every requisite blessing of providence, grace, and glory, to you.

If you read that whole passage in content Paul makes it clear, whether we are poor or have plenty we need to be content with it:

10 How I praise the Lord that you are concerned about me again. I know you have always been concerned for me, but you didn’t have the chance to help me. 11 Not that I was ever in need, for I have learned how to be content with whatever I have. 12 I know how to live on almost nothing or with everything. I have learned the secret of living in every situation, whether it is with a full stomach or empty, with plenty or little. 13 For I can do everything through Christ, who gives me strength. 14 Even so, you have done well to share with me in my present difficulty.

15 As you know, you Philippians were the only ones who gave me financial help when I first brought you the Good News and then traveled on from Macedonia. No other church did this. 16 Even when I was in Thessalonica you sent help more than once. 17 I don’t say this because I want a gift from you. Rather, I want you to receive a reward for your kindness.

18 At the moment I have all I need—and more! I am generously supplied with the gifts you sent me with Epaphroditus. They are a sweet-smelling sacrifice that is acceptable and pleasing to God. 19 And this same God who takes care of me will supply all your needs from his glorious riches, which have been given to us in Christ Jesus.

20 Now all glory to God our Father forever and ever! Amen.

Paul is giving the example here also that yes the members of a church need to support their leader...but he doesn't say they need to make him rich! And that in return God will make them rich! Nothing of the sort is meant here. Paul makes it clear he has all he needs... He doesn't need his own private swimming pool...he didn't need a fancy horse to ride on...he didn't need alot of fine rich clothes or rich foods...you will never see that with him. Paul suffered horribly for the Word of God. He was beaten many times, whipped, stoned, put in jail, on a ship that wrecked, bitten by a snake...and finally beheaded.

He talks about being cold and hungry:
2 Corinthians 11
23 Are they servants of Christ? I know I sound like a madman, but I have served him far more! I have worked harder, been put in prison more often, been whipped times without number, and faced death again and again. 24 Five different times the Jewish leaders gave me thirty-nine lashes. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked. Once I spent a whole night and a day adrift at sea. 26 I have traveled on many long journeys. I have faced danger from rivers and from robbers. I have faced danger from my own people, the Jews, as well as from the Gentiles. I have faced danger in the cities, in the deserts, and on the seas. And I have faced danger from men who claim to be believers but are not. 27 I have worked hard and long, enduring many sleepless nights. I have been hungry and thirsty and have often gone without food. I have shivered in the cold, without enough clothing to keep me warm.

Would any begin to think Paul was rich by any stretch of the imagination by the world's standards? Would people see him and wonder about his God? Why would God allow him to be cold and hungry and beaten and near death many times over?

No one would think this man was a man of God...especially these days! Not by how we judge people..we think if a Christian is doing well God has blessed them...but how do we explain Paul? And all of the disciples going through similar things? They sat in prison with him....they all died too for their faith except for John. None of them had time to worry about wealth or getting rich...they were doing the HARD DIRTY work for God. They weren't laying on soft feather filled mats at night with their bellies full of good food and good wine. They weren't with the 'in crowd' doing parties and wedding. They were being physically dragged out of Jewish temples into jails...suffering and mocked just as Jesus said would happen.

Yet Paul and the others were very, very rich. Not in money, not in gold or jewels...but spiritually they were very rich. Do you see the difference? This is what Jesus preaches and teaches...to be spiritually rich! That is what words like treasure and riches mean in the bible...not material riches.

I say these things because I care about you...not to hurt or offend you...so you can see the true things Jesus was teaching and truly be blessed by God in that way.

God bless

4Christ
May 13th 2008, 07:44 PM
Luke 22:35
And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

Jesus and his followers did not need any money, clothes, etc, to travel from place to place preaching the Word of God. Like a good shepherd, the Lord will provide for his sheep whatever they need as long as the follow him.:pray:

HisGrace
May 13th 2008, 09:42 PM
I don't want to offend anyone, but if you aren't being blessed it is not because you are a bad person, it is because there are lessons to be learned about leaning totally on God for all your needs. My heart goes out to anyone who is having difficult times.

I am talking from experience. I was separated from my husband for about two years when my son was about six and my daughter about eight. He gave me a small amount of money for support and I think I was working part-time during part of that period. Never once did I have to worry about their being properly clothed, paying the rent or putting food on the table. When I think back I wonder how I did it. God has always richly taken care of me. There are dozens of scriptures in the Bible talking about prosperity and it isn't always talking spiritual matters or when we get to heaven. He wants us well taken care of now.

We own our own home and our car is paid for and although, we aren't millionares, live comfortably. I have never, ever had to worry about finances, and it enables me to be very generous to charities.

Psalm 112
1 Praise the Lord! How joyful are those who fear the Lord and delight in obeying his commands. 2 Their children will be successful everywhere; an entire generation of godly people will be blessed.

3 They themselves will be wealthy, and their good deeds will last forever.
4 Light shines in the darkness for the godly. They are generous, paassionate, and righteous.

5 Good comes to those who lend money generously and conduct their business fairly. 6 Such people will not be overcome by evil. Those who are righteous will be long remembered. 7 They do not fear bad news; they confidently trust the Lord to care for them.

8 They are confident and fearless and can face their foes triumphantly.
9 They share freely and give generously to those in need. Their good deeds will be remembered forever. They will have influence and honor.


I am not going to post on this thread anymore, because apparently many find my remarks offensive.

Brother Mark
May 13th 2008, 10:53 PM
Psalm 112
1 Praise the Lord! How joyful are those who fear the Lord and delight in obeying his commands. 2 Their children will be successful everywhere; an entire generation of godly people will be blessed.

3 They themselves will be wealthy, and their good deeds will last forever.
4 Light shines in the darkness for the godly. They are generous, paassionate, and righteous.

5 Good comes to those who lend money generously and conduct their business fairly. 6 Such people will not be overcome by evil. Those who are righteous will be long remembered. 7 They do not fear bad news; they confidently trust the Lord to care for them.

8 They are confident and fearless and can face their foes triumphantly.
9 They share freely and give generously to those in need. Their good deeds will be remembered forever. They will have influence and honor.

A great Psalm that is explained fully by Jesus in the following passage.

Matt 6:19-21

19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
KJV

Those in the Psalm are wealthy because their "good deeds will last forever". They have laid up for themselves treasures in heaven that cannot be stolen. That is real wealth.

ProjectPeter
May 13th 2008, 11:19 PM
I don't want to offend anyone, but if you aren't being blessed it is not because you are a bad person, it is because there are lessons to be learned about leaning totally on God for all your needs. My heart goes out to anyone who is having difficult times.

I am talking from experience. I was separated from my husband for about two years when my son was about six and my daughter about eight. He gave me a small amount of money for support and I think I was working part-time during part of that period. Never once did I have to worry about their being properly clothed, paying the rent or putting food on the table. When I think back I wonder how I did it. God has always richly taken care of me. There are dozens of scriptures in the Bible talking about prosperity and it isn't always talking spiritual matters or when we get to heaven. He wants us well taken care of now.

We own our own home and our car is paid for and although, we aren't millionares, live comfortably. I have never, ever had to worry about finances, and it enables me to be very generous to charities.

Psalm 112
1 Praise the Lord! How joyful are those who fear the Lord and delight in obeying his commands. 2 Their children will be successful everywhere; an entire generation of godly people will be blessed.

3 They themselves will be wealthy, and their good deeds will last forever.
4 Light shines in the darkness for the godly. They are generous, paassionate, and righteous.

5 Good comes to those who lend money generously and conduct their business fairly. 6 Such people will not be overcome by evil. Those who are righteous will be long remembered. 7 They do not fear bad news; they confidently trust the Lord to care for them.

8 They are confident and fearless and can face their foes triumphantly.
9 They share freely and give generously to those in need. Their good deeds will be remembered forever. They will have influence and honor.


I am not going to post on this thread anymore, because apparently many find my remarks offensive.
And what about those destitute that the world wasn't even worthy they be here? My goodness... listen to what you are saying. If you aren't well supplied then your faith is messed up and I, the blessed one, am so much greater in faith than you! One day... it won't be so grand. What then? Rest yourself assured that that great faith will really be needed then. I hear this sort of thing and my heart breaks because folks just miss so much of what faith is really about. And regardless of whether you intend to offend... your words are offensive in this as well as not biblical.

Brother Mark
May 13th 2008, 11:21 PM
And what about those destitute that the world wasn't even worthy they be here? My goodness... listen to what you are saying. If you aren't well supplied then your faith is messed up and I, the blessed one, am so much greater in faith than you! One day... it won't be so grand. What then? Rest yourself assured that that great faith will really be needed then. I hear this sort of thing and my heart breaks because folks just miss so much of what faith is really about. And regardless of whether you intend to offend... your words are offensive in this as well as not biblical.

It takes far more faith to trust God during the bad times than it does the good times. People don't walk away from Him when all is well.

ARCHER42
May 14th 2008, 12:10 AM
If your kids go to school with holes in their shoes, people are going to wonder what kind of God you serve, and besides your lack of faith would be an embarrassment to God.

Philippians 4:19 And this same God who takes care of me will supply all your needs from his glorious riches, which have been given to us in Christ Jesus.
-------------------------------------------------------------

The God I serve will prosper me as He sees fit. It's not based on how great my faith is...or the abundance of it. He knows how much I can handle and He knows the dangers of 'going' after these things and leaving Him behind. What He wants is for me to 'trust' Him in all situations and remember the source of my prosperity however 'big' it may be. My 'faith' is not relevant to how 'good' I'm living. My 'faith' is relevant to my situation.. trusting in Him no matter what.

John the Baptist.. He must of had 'little' faith as he was clothed in camel's hair and a leather girdle.. eating locusts and wild honey.. He was the forerunner or messenger for Jesus the Christ. His 'faith' was not based on how well he lived.

How much better is it to get WISDOM than GOLD! and to get UNDERSTANDING rather to be chosen than SILVER.
Proverbs 16: 16

ProjectPeter
May 14th 2008, 12:12 AM
It takes far more faith to trust God during the bad times than it does the good times. People don't walk away from Him when all is well.
That is exactly right and that is the point made at the end of Hebrews 11. We can say what about Moses, Abraham, David and etc. until the cows come home... but we don't want to talk about those destitute, wandering in caves... naked... hungry etc. that had faith just as great as any of these men and women. That's the folks that are brushed over because hey... if they only had "faith" then!!!! That is just plain anti-Bible and try as I may... no other way to describe it.

Brother Mark
May 14th 2008, 12:16 AM
That is exactly right and that is the point made at the end of Hebrews 11. We can say what about Moses, Abraham, David and etc. until the cows come home... but we don't want to talk about those destitute, wandering in caves... naked... hungry etc. that had faith just as great as any of these men and women. That's the folks that are brushed over because hey... if they only had "faith" then!!!! That is just plain anti-Bible and try as I may... no other way to describe it.

Yep. But even Moses and David had their times of wondering in caves. That scripture in Hebrews is very clear, great faith does not equate to great monetary wealth. Anti-bible is the kindest way to address the doctrine.

John146
May 14th 2008, 03:13 PM
First off, I want to say that I've been saved for 2 years and I still have a lot to learn. I'm very glad I found this forum recently. What I like is that I can post some of the questions that have accumulated in my head over the last 2 years and immediately have some input.

My question in this thread can be a touchy one. It's about the so-called "prosperity" gospel. Many people would say Creflo Dollar preaches this style (himself included). I watch him every single morning while getting ready for work and his program has been a blessing.

I have heard some arguments for and against the "prosperity" gospel. To put it briefly:

Against: The gospel is not about us gaining material wealth, it's about us serving the Lord. He gives us what we need to survive and we shouldn't desire more than that. When we seek to gain material belongings, we are looking to satisfy our own wills.

For: The whole King Solomon argument, the fact that Jesus came to give us life more abundantly, etc.

I guess I just want to hear what some thoughts are on either side of this issue.

I guess 2 of the most interesting things I've heard in favor of material prosperity are as follows:

I believe it was Dr. Fred Price that said something like (paraphrasing), "Yes I drive a Bentley. I drive a Bentley! First of all, the Lord has led me to give away about 99 cars to those in need during my lifetime, so I don't believe He's mad that I have a Bentley. Secondly, I was GIVEN the Bentley by a friend who felt led to give me the Bentley."

My church had a visiting pastor who has planted and oversees something like 100 churches in the Philippines and surrounding areas. He also keeps a residence in the United States. He literally works all over the world. He said something like, "In order to travel to these various parts of the world, money is necessary. In fact, it takes quite a lot of money for myself, my team, and my family to go keep these things going and to do the work the Lord has called us to do. So, my heart is not in the money. The money is just one of many tools, but it's a tool that is very necessary. In many cases, without money, certain things can't get done."

Pros/cons of these statements? Other thoughts?

It's not a sin to have wealth. Job was very wealthy, for example, and God considered him a righteous man. However, the problem comes when money becomes the main focus. You know what it says about the love of money. That's the trap many of these prosperity gospel preachers fall into. They become obsessed with money and convince themselves that it's God's will to make all His people materially prosperous. Well, that is simply unscriptural. The only motive for wanting to have a lot of money should be so that you have a lot of money to give away. But I don't believe that is the motive of many of these prosperity gospel preachers.

Jesus said to not worry about tomorrow because today has enough trouble of its own. Paul said in 2 Tim 3:12, "all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.". We are not promised material prosperity in this life. But we are promised trouble and hard times. Some Christians have material wealth and that isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as they are sharing it.

Having life abundantly does not mean having lots of money and material things. That has been misinterpreted. Having life more abundantly means we experience the peace that passes all understanding. Even though we go through hard times, we make it through because we have the assurance of eternal life in Christ. Our eyes are set on eternity with the Lord and that is what gives us life abundantly. Having that perspective removes all fear and worry from our lives. It helps us to be more fruitful. We have been set free from our sins and from the fear of death (Heb 2:14-15). That is what gives us life abundantly.

John146
May 14th 2008, 03:37 PM
I don't want to offend anyone, but if you aren't being blessed it is not because you are a bad person, it is because there are lessons to be learned about leaning totally on God for all your needs. My heart goes out to anyone who is having difficult times.

I am talking from experience. I was separated from my husband for about two years when my son was about six and my daughter about eight. He gave me a small amount of money for support and I think I was working part-time during part of that period. Never once did I have to worry about their being properly clothed, paying the rent or putting food on the table. When I think back I wonder how I did it. God has always richly taken care of me. There are dozens of scriptures in the Bible talking about prosperity and it isn't always talking spiritual matters or when we get to heaven. He wants us well taken care of now.

We own our own home and our car is paid for and although, we aren't millionares, live comfortably. I have never, ever had to worry about finances, and it enables me to be very generous to charities.

Psalm 112
1 Praise the Lord! How joyful are those who fear the Lord and delight in obeying his commands. 2 Their children will be successful everywhere; an entire generation of godly people will be blessed.

3 They themselves will be wealthy, and their good deeds will last forever.
4 Light shines in the darkness for the godly. They are generous, paassionate, and righteous.

5 Good comes to those who lend money generously and conduct their business fairly. 6 Such people will not be overcome by evil. Those who are righteous will be long remembered. 7 They do not fear bad news; they confidently trust the Lord to care for them.

8 They are confident and fearless and can face their foes triumphantly.
9 They share freely and give generously to those in need. Their good deeds will be remembered forever. They will have influence and honor.


I am not going to post on this thread anymore, because apparently many find my remarks offensive.

We are promised to be taken care of, but never promised that we will live comfortably. If that's what you believe then you are simply wrong. Did the woman who gave all she had (two small coins) lack faith? Do you think she was living comfortably? I doubt it. She obviously had almost no money. But she was content. I wonder if you could be content in the same situation. Based on your comments, I tend to doubt it. Therefore, I wonder if you could hold on to your faith or not if you suddenly didn't have your comfortable home and car. We should have an attitude where we can be content in any situation (just as Paul was) and I'm not seeing that from your comments.

Lyndie
May 14th 2008, 04:54 PM
You know, the hatred of money or those who do have it is just as bad as the love of money. I don't care how much money someone has or doesn't have. I care more about thier spiritual fruit. If they are rich, or comfortable or whatever, and they are generous with thier giving, who am I to judge? Poor and rich alike can be greedy. Should we all go back to living in straw and clay homes? Give up our cars? Our computers? None of these things are in the bible, and we really don't 'need' them. I see nothing wrong with enjoying the fruits of my labors, as long as I have a generous heart.

merjorg
May 20th 2008, 12:31 AM
Not to keep rehashing this issue, but I watched Creflo this morning and he gave his reasoning as to why we KNOW that Jesus was not poor.

He said that in Genesis (Ch. 15 and Ch. 17 I believe?)...(I'm on my way out the door so I'm not going to take the time to find the exact verses) God promised Abraham that he and his seed would be fruitful and multiply (I think he mentioned having lots of livestock and some other specific possessions as part of the covenant). He said Abraham was rich, Isaac was rich, and Jacob was rich. He said, "guess who else is Abraham's seed? Jesus! Jesus is Abraham's seed." (I think that's Galatians if I'm remembering right)

He also said that poor people do not need a treasurer. He also said when the woman poored out spices, that Judas said that they should have sold the spices to give to the poor. Creflo said "if Jesus was poor, wouldn't he have qualified to be one of the poor people that Judas was talking about?" But, no, Judas' recommended that they give to the poor (and so obviously they weren't in that category). He also said they were casting lots for garments...which shows that they weren't wearing rags. Quoted another verse that said Jesus had a nice rob which was hemmed from top to bottom (something like that). Also said that the wise men brought him frankencence and gold. Creflo said, "He wasn't poor on that day!"

So, I've seen good points by many on here. I think there's probably a middle ground. It's definitely about where our heart is...and I think it's been proven Scripturally in this thread that money has a tendency (or can very easily) pull our hearts away from God.

I really think Creflo's point is that we have access to these things. I don't think he's saying that poor people don't have faith. I think he's just saying that we became Abraham's seed (with Christ) when we got saved and so we still have access to anything in that covenant that included Abraham's seed.

I don't think for one minute that Creflo would deny that money has its dangers or that Jesus didn't warn against those dangers. I also don't think he would say that people without material wealth don't have faith. I think he would just tell them that they have access to any money they need during this life.

minnesotaice
May 20th 2008, 12:44 AM
I think that everyone should with an open mind and heart read the book called "I was wrong" by Jim Bakker. I don't think history has ever found a born again Christian as wealthy as he was in his heydey.

Whether he was guilty of what they said he was or not, he served his time. But more interesting was that he spent immense parts of his day in prison just reading the words of Jesus over and over. He said that the Lord really opened his eyes to all of scripture and the verse that he talked about was "Man shall not live on bread alone but on EVERY word that comes out of the mouth of the Lord".

He said that after reading Jesus' word's over and over, he was convinced that Jesus had nothing good to say about money. What a testimony. Jesus was all Jim needed all along.

minnesotaice
May 20th 2008, 12:48 AM
What?? Have you ever watched James Robison's programme on how many hundreds of water wells they have dug in Africa and the amount of food his missions work provides for them?

TV ministry requires millions and millions of dollars because they don't have commercial sponsors to pay for air time. Money has to come from donations.

Many of these ministries help hospitals, children's homes, other medical outreach work and disaster relief in third world countries and America, not forgetting to mention the spreading of the gospel throughout the world. Paying staff and transporation doesn't come cheap either.


A small sample or their work. We never hear about such endeavours on prosperity bashing sites. This is from James Robison's site -

"This year LIFE will work to fund the drilling, construction and completion of 200 new water wells across the continent of Africa. Since the beginning of our worldwide outreach, we have completed over 1000 new water wells across 25 different nations.

With the average cost of each well at $4,800 (US), this means that a young, malnourished child can receive clean water for a lifetime for as little as $4.80.

Mission Feeding
Today in Africa, millions people face starvation and death. But through LIFE's extensive Mission Feeding program, hundreds of thousands receive emergency food supplies to sustain them through famine, drought, war, and other difficult times. "


Yes, there is nothing wrong with using money to help others, but money is not needed to bring someone to the knowledge of their sin. "No one can come to the father unless they are drawn by the Holy Spirit"

minnesotaice
May 20th 2008, 12:53 AM
If your kids go to school with holes in their shoes, people are going to wonder what kind of God you serve, and besides your lack of faith would be an embarrassment to God.

Philippians 4:19 And this same God who takes care of me will supply all your needs from his glorious riches, which have been given to us in Christ Jesus.


I just have a question about this. If you assume that God's children shouldn't look even a little bit poor, than what can one say about the filthy rich who don't serve God or even believe. Who makes them rich? The devil? Just asking?

HisGrace
May 20th 2008, 03:01 AM
And what about those destitute that the world wasn't even worthy they be here? My goodness... listen to what you are saying. If you aren't well supplied then your faith is messed up and I, the blessed one, am so much greater in faith than you! One day... it won't be so grand. What then? Rest yourself assured that that great faith will really be needed then. I hear this sort of thing and my heart breaks because folks just miss so much of what faith is really about. And regardless of whether you intend to offend... your words are offensive in this as well as not biblical.I said I wasn't going to post anymore, but I am still getting many questions.
I am certainly not saying that I have 'arrived' by a long shot. Money has always been one of my stronger points, and I have many weaknesses as well. My faith has been tested many times to the stretching point and I have known some really difficult times. Just talking to strangers on such a forum,we better watch our words because we don't know what the other person has gone through. I was just giving my opinion on the subject at hand. There are many different facets to my life.


John the Baptist.. He must of had 'little' faith as he was clothed in camel's hair and a leather girdle.. eating locusts and wild honey.. He was the forerunner or messenger for Jesus the Christ. His 'faith' was not based on how well he lived. Sometimes God wants us totally stripped of all pride and step out emptied, with total humility, if he has a special mission in mind. Have you ever felt that way when fighting a battle? I have.


Yes, there is nothing wrong with using money to help others, but money is not needed to bring someone to the knowledge of their sin. "No one can come to the father unless they are drawn by the Holy Spirit" I agree.


I just have a question about this. If you assume that God's children shouldn't look even a little bit poor, than what can one say about the filthy rich who don't serve God or even believe. Who makes them rich? The devil? Just asking?Pride, power and selfishness makes them rich. A multi-millionare business magnate comes to mind from the States, who will remain nameless, who owns all kinds of hotels, golf courses and casinos, and is always wanting more. That is because he seems to want to be the most powerful entrepeneur in America.

We don't know much about the widow with the mite, but it mainly is a lesson in pride, to be taught to the onlookers. I am sure she did it, knowing that every need would be met. Knowing the way Jesus works, she would never have to do without again.

If Jesus was so dead set against riches why would he allow the following -

In Luke 7 it talks about a harlot who brought a beautiful alabaster jar filled with expensive perfume. She knelt at his feet and wiped her tears off with her hair and kept kissing his feet and putting perfume on them. The Pharisees of course had a hissy fit and rebuked him for touching such a sinful woman.
Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. 45 but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. 46 You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. 47 Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”
48 Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

Mary did the same in John 12:3 Then Mary took a twelve-ounce jar of expensive perfume made from essence of nard, and she anointed Jesus’ feet with it, wiping his feet with her hair. The house was filled with the fragrance.
4 But Judas Iscariot, the disciple who would soon betray him, said, 5 “That perfume was worth a year’s wages. It should have been sold and the money given to the poor.” 6 Not that he cared for the poor—he was a thief, and since he was in charge of the disciples’ money, he often stole some for himself.

7 Jesus replied, “Leave her alone. She did this in preparation for my burial. 8 You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me.”

ARCHER42
May 20th 2008, 04:07 AM
Sometimes God wants us totally stripped of all pride and step out emptied, with total humility, if he has a special mission in mind. Have you ever felt that way when fighting a battle? I have.

------------------------------------------------------------

Yes I know what this is all about.. after my conversion in 1994 .. I stepped out with total humility... I left a great paying 5 figure salary behind.. plus my fiance... my material possesions, almost eveything but the clothes on my back.... Alot of people thought I was crazy or the village idiot for doing that... they didnt understand and some still don't undertand today.. Do I have hard feelings toward them.. No I've forgiven them......... I went from having everything to not knowing where my next meal was coming from.. this was in the USA....

I did this out of 'wanting' more of Him... abandoned everything for Him... I learned so much from Him during those times... was it worth it? Yes it was worth it and I wouldnt exchange it for anything else. You can't put a 'monetary value' on those lessons learned and what He taught me.

Today.. I have a job.. it pays the bills... My material possessions aren't what they used to be but I don't place my trust in them or relate the abundance of them to my 'faith'. He will prosper me as He sees fit....

I "know" about 'poverty' been there. ... I also know that God is no repsecter of persons.... and that the abundance of faith is not equated to monetary wealth or material wealth.

All of our glory and wealth we accumulate here on this Earth.. we will not take it with us when we pass on.. We are called to be content, whether were abounding or in need.

Ashley274
May 20th 2008, 04:15 AM
Sometimes God wants us totally stripped of all pride and step out emptied, with total humility, if he has a special mission in mind. Have you ever felt that way when fighting a battle? I have.

------------------------------------------------------------

Yes I know what this is all about.. after my conversion in 1994 .. I stepped out with total humility... I left a great paying 5 figure salary behind.. plus my fiance... my material possesions, almost eveything but the clothes on my back.... Alot of people thought I was crazy or the village idiot for doing that... they didnt understand and some still don't undertand today.. Do I have hard feelings toward them.. No I've forgiven them......... I went from having everything to not knowing where my next meal was coming from.. this was in the USA....

I did this out of 'wanting' more of Him... abandoned everything for Him... I learned so much from Him during those times... was it worth it? Yes it was worth it and I wouldnt exchange it for anything else. You can't put a 'monetary value' on those lessons learned and what He taught me.

Today.. I have a job.. it pays the bills... My material possessions aren't what they used to be but I don't place my trust in them or relate the abundance of them to my 'faith'. He will prosper me as He sees fit....

I know about 'poverty' ... I also know that God is no repsecter of persons.... and that the abundance of faith is not equated to monetary wealth or material wealth.

All of our glory and wealth we accumulate here on this Earth.. we will not take it with us when we pass on.. We are called to be content, whether were abounding or in need.

Awesome post Archer :agree:with much of what you said and I too have been taken from one area on wealth to another....though not as much as you...but I am running that race.....

Side note I did see the same Creflo today Merj and I wonder if you watch TCT also :hug: I liked a lot of what he said and he makes me lol with his joking around...I do not agree with all he sez but I do like and respect much of what he sez...I was impressed when they said FOR ANY AMOUNT of donation they would send you his book and something else..I think a CD ..I think thats nice cause some of the shows I see they set a price..I don't have that kinda money so I can't get their stuff ..I feel left out then but I like how he accepts all....

Revinius
May 20th 2008, 07:39 AM
Creflo is the rich man whom Jesus sent away. Stay away from his teachings.

ProDeo
May 20th 2008, 08:02 AM
If your kids go to school with holes in their shoes, people are going to wonder what kind of God you serve, and besides your lack of faith would be an embarrassment to God.

What about John the Baptist?

Matt 3:4 Now John was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather band about him; and his food was locusts and honey.

Not exactly the average model citizen ;)


Philippians 4:19 And this same God who takes care of me will supply all your needs from his glorious riches, which have been given to us in Christ Jesus.

What people want, often is not the same as people need. The above promise is about what we need.

Ed

ProjectPeter
May 20th 2008, 11:52 AM
I really think Creflo's point is that we have access to these things. I don't think he's saying that poor people don't have faith. I think he's just saying that we became Abraham's seed (with Christ) when we got saved and so we still have access to anything in that covenant that included Abraham's seed.

I don't think for one minute that Creflo would deny that money has its dangers or that Jesus didn't warn against those dangers. I also don't think he would say that people without material wealth don't have faith. I think he would just tell them that they have access to any money they need during this life.Yes, Creflo will say that those who lack wealth also lack faith. I've heard him say it MANY times over the years. He'll go even further and say that have a "spirit of poverty." That's his teaching just to keep it real.

VerticalReality
May 20th 2008, 12:25 PM
"spirit of poverty."

Who knew . . . ghetto spirits. :rolleyes:

ProjectPeter
May 20th 2008, 12:27 PM
Yeah..... pretty much it! :lol:

ARCHER42
May 20th 2008, 01:11 PM
:o:rofl: thats a good one .... a spirit of poverty....lol

Brother Mark
May 20th 2008, 01:21 PM
Even rich people can think poor. Being poor is no sign of a "spirit of poverty" as some would have us believe. I know folks that were rich and still went through dumpsters looking for things they could use.

ARCHER42
May 20th 2008, 06:05 PM
Even rich people can think poor. Being poor is no sign of a "spirit of poverty" as some would have us believe. I know folks that were rich and still went through dumpsters looking for things they could use.
------------------------------------------------------------

Thats interesting you should mention that 'spirit of poverty'... I once attended a WOF church.. at that time I was a young Christian .. I had almost nothing.. I attended this church and during one of the services they attempted to cast a 'spirit of poverty' out of me.. I wasn't dressed in fine suits and ties.. didn't have the 300 dollar Rolex. Wasnt ''dressed" to their status quo...

I was taken back by what happened.. I Asked the Lord and talked to Him... saying to myself..... 'i dont have an evil spirit'... and proceeded to go home and check what happened against the Word... I searched my Concordance for a 'spirit of poverty' NOTHING... zilch.. natta.. so I knew then that this was all show... They were calling the Holy Ghost that was in me an evil spirit because they 'judged' me by what I was wearing and how nice my car was and how big my offerings were.. Shame shame.....

this is a 100 percent true story..

merjorg
May 20th 2008, 08:34 PM
2 acronyms were used that I didn't get.

TCT...who is that? Person or a show?
WOF church? I googled it...is it Word of Faith?

You know...another interesting thing Creflo said...that I found logical...is that since we are supposed to be more like Jesus...then whoever thinks he was dirt poor should make sure that they fit that category as well. If you're not dirt poor, he said, then you should go ahead and sell some of your possessions so that you don't have "too much".

Again guys, I'm not arguing...it's just interesting conversation and I'm learning from this thread. Thanks for everyone's input...

Brother Mark
May 20th 2008, 08:56 PM
2 acronyms were used that I didn't get.

TCT...who is that? Person or a show?
WOF church? I googled it...is it Word of Faith?

You know...another interesting thing Creflo said...that I found logical...is that since we are supposed to be more like Jesus...then whoever thinks he was dirt poor should make sure that they fit that category as well. If you're not dirt poor, he said, then you should go ahead and sell some of your possessions so that you don't have "too much".

Again guys, I'm not arguing...it's just interesting conversation and I'm learning from this thread. Thanks for everyone's input...

A whole group of people left Jesus in John 6 because he wouldn't give them more material things. When he explained to them it was all about the spiritual, they left him.

Don't get caught in the prosperity junk being taught by those folks that preach about money. You might be surprised that some have left everything. Certainly Peter did.

ProjectPeter
May 20th 2008, 09:01 PM
You know...another interesting thing Creflo said...that I found logical...is that since we are supposed to be more like Jesus...then whoever thinks he was dirt poor should make sure that they fit that category as well. If you're not dirt poor, he said, then you should go ahead and sell some of your possessions so that you don't have "too much".That was the one truth he did tell. ;)

minnesotaice
May 20th 2008, 11:30 PM
------------------------------------------------------------

Thats interesting you should mention that 'spirit of poverty'... I once attended a WOF church.. at that time I was a young Christian .. I had almost nothing.. I attended this church and during one of the services they attempted to cast a 'spirit of poverty' out of me.. I wasn't dressed in fine suits and ties.. didn't have the 300 dollar Rolex. Wasnt ''dressed" to their status quo...

I was taken back by what happened.. I Asked the Lord and talked to Him... saying to myself..... 'i dont have an evil spirit'... and proceeded to go home and check what happened against the Word... I searched my Concordance for a 'spirit of poverty' NOTHING... zilch.. natta.. so I knew then that this was all show... They were calling the Holy Ghost that was in me an evil spirit because they 'judged' me by what I was wearing and how nice my car was and how big my offerings were.. Shame shame.....

this is a 100 percent true story..


I have a true story similar to yours. Some friends of mine from the church I used to attend were eating at a casual restaurant. It was a lunch buffet so many people were up there at the same time. My group of friends starting talking to a group of men (dressed in nice Armani suits) and they found out that all of them worked at different churches. Big churches. Anyways, the men in suits told my friends that they needed to be dressed more like people of God (Whatever that meant). I mean, at least try to get to know a person before you start commenting on their attire, and then don't make it about expensive clothes.

divaD
May 20th 2008, 11:33 PM
If you're not dirt poor, he
said, then you should go ahead and sell some of your possessions so that you don't have "too much"


Personally, I would have a lot more respect for this thing Creflo said, had he stated something such as this.

If you're not dirt poor, he
said, then you should go ahead and GIVE some of your possessions to someone less fortunate so that you don't have "too much", and that they have a little more.

But the way Creflo wants to do it, the ones that are not dirt poor, when they sell some of their possessions, they might wind up with a few less possessions, but they gained more money from the sales of the possessions. It doesn't appear that they lost much of anything. Now they have some extra money that they can send these prosperity teachers. Everybody wins in this situation, except for the ones that the not so dirt poor should have given their possessions to in the first place. The prosperity teachers possibly get some extra cash, the not so dirt poor get back 10 to a 100 fold from God. This is the picture of the foolishness I see in all of this.

Ashley274
May 21st 2008, 02:43 AM
Hi Merg, TCT stands for Totally Christian Television...24 hrs of nothing but Christian TV running in 176 nations...I imagine if you were watching it you would know it..I catch Creflo on there a lot. I saw the same one and I too caught the dirt poor then be dirt poor yourself..if thats what you think Christ was because you are to be LIKE Christ sermon..I found it...intresting ...I do not now what WOF is


2 acronyms were used that I didn't get.

TCT...who is that? Person or a show?
WOF church? I googled it...is it Word of Faith?

You know...another interesting thing Creflo said...that I found logical...is that since we are supposed to be more like Jesus...then whoever thinks he was dirt poor should make sure that they fit that category as well. If you're not dirt poor, he said, then you should go ahead and sell some of your possessions so that you don't have "too much".

Again guys, I'm not arguing...it's just interesting conversation and I'm learning from this thread. Thanks for everyone's input...

ARCHER42
May 21st 2008, 03:28 AM
2 acronyms were used that I didn't get.

TCT...who is that? Person or a show?
WOF church? I googled it...is it Word of Faith?

You know...another interesting thing Creflo said...that I found logical...is that since we are supposed to be more like Jesus...then whoever thinks he was dirt poor should make sure that they fit that category as well. If you're not dirt poor, he said, then you should go ahead and sell some of your possessions so that you don't have "too much".

Again guys, I'm not arguing...it's just interesting conversation and I'm learning from this thread. Thanks for everyone's input...
-----------------------------------------------------------

WOF = Word of Faith... What I told was a true story.. it was the first time someone ever tried to cast an evil spirit out of me, (after I had been Born Again and Baptized in the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in toungues), when there was none there to begin with.. the Holy Ghost was there but then thats a whole 'nother discussion we can delve into. I searched and searched for that 'spirit of poverty'.. that was suppose to be behind my 'lacking' and controlling me. I couldnt find that in the Bible...lol....

I mentioned it 'was show'.. yes it was.. everything was...there was no message of salvation preached..alot of scripture referencing and talking,,,, but nothing 'sound'.. a whole lot of nothing.. I must say that I had some really good friends from that church.. people who did not look down on you because you 'lacked'.. I cherish those times with them... but overall.. it was a learning experience.. not everthing you say and you hear taught in the 'name of the Lord.. is from Him..

Revinius
May 21st 2008, 04:32 AM
You know...another interesting thing Creflo said...that I found logical...is that since we are supposed to be more like Jesus...then whoever thinks he was dirt poor should make sure that they fit that category as well. If you're not dirt poor, he said, then you should go ahead and sell some of your possessions so that you don't have "too much".

Again guys, I'm not arguing...it's just interesting conversation and I'm learning from this thread. Thanks for everyone's input...

Pity he cant bring himself to get poor. Leading by example :hmm:

Revinius
May 21st 2008, 04:35 AM
I just dont know how anyone can justify wearing overpriced rags when there is absolutely no basis to do so Biblically. Its greatly saddens me that people believe the tripe coming out of the mouths of false teachers like this.

HisGrace
May 21st 2008, 04:49 PM
:o:rofl: thats a good one .... a spirit of poverty....lolI don't fiind it quite so hilarious. There could be such a thing.
Job 21:25Another person dies in bitter poverty,never having tasted the good life.
Proverbs 6:11then poverty will pounce on you like a bandit;scarcity will attack you like an armed robber.
Proverbs 10:15The wealth of the rich is their fortress;the poverty of the poor is their destruction.
Proverbs 13:18If you ignore criticism, you will end in poverty and disgrace;if you accept correction, you will be honored.

BTW, many ministries are called WOF, when indeed they aren't true WOF'ers.

In spite of a popular myth Jesus always had his needs provided for -
John 13:26-27Jesus said, "The one to whom I give this crust of bread after I've dipped it." Then he dipped the crust and gave it to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot. As soon as the bread was in his hand, Satan entered him. "What you must do," said Jesus, "do. Do it and get it over with."

28-29No one around the supper table knew why he said this to him. Some thought that since Judas was their treasurer, Jesus was telling him to buy what they needed for the Feast, or that he should give something to the poor
Notice that it says that he should give something to the poor, showing that Jesus wasn't poor himself.

The following is often taken out of its proper context. It is not saying that Jesus was naked or hungry, but is saying that if such is done to others, it is like they are doing it to him.

Matthew 2541-43"Then he will turn to the 'goats,' the ones on his left, and say, 'Get out, worthless goats! You're good for nothing but the fires of hell. And why? Because—

I was hungry and you gave me no meal,
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
I was homeless and you gave me no bed,
I was shivering and you gave me no clothes,
Sick and in prison, and you never visited.'

44"Then those 'goats' are going to say, 'Master, what are you talking about? When did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or homeless or shivering or sick or in prison and didn't help?'

45"He will answer them, 'I'm telling the solemn truth: Whenever you failed to do one of these things to someone who was being overlooked or ignored, that was me—you failed to do it to me.'

46"Then those 'goats' will be herded to their eternal doom, but the 'sheep' to their eternal reward."

ARCHER42
May 21st 2008, 05:18 PM
HisGrace,
Show me one place where Jesus the Christ cast out a 'spirit of poverty' so that afterwards that person could flaunt his wealth and materialism to 'prove' he was a Christian and God was behind him. Jesus cast out 'spirits' to make 'known the Kingdom of God was at hand'... not to glorify wealth and materialistic attitudes.. This guy I spoke about in one of my prior posts back then was trying to 'cast an evil' spirit out of me when there was none there to begin with. How do I know that? Because prior to my conversion I had 'lots' of them and Jesus the Christ out of His mercy and Kindness 'delivered' me from them. I know what it was like to be 'possessed' by the devil before my conversion. This guy judged me by what I was wearing, my offerings, and what I drove... He judged me in the flesh.. and concluded that I had a 'devil' of poverty. I have some serious issues with what you 'teach' on here especially about God and finances. One can go back and look at one of your prior posts.. which is 'unbiblical' and from the most part in 'error'.

What this man in this WOF church was doing was calling the Holy Ghost which indwelt my heart and was leading me an 'evil' spirit. Now according to my Bible that is blasphemey.... plain and simple.
You need to go and read in the Book of James about the truth that if a peson comes into your assembly wearing nothing but rags and bad attire.. Are you to judge this person accordingly? I think not...

There is nothing wrong with being prosperous or having things.. He gives us those things 'freely' thru His completed work at the Cross. The problem is when your equate your abundance with how much 'faith' you have or your 'lack' of it. This is not Scriptural and is heresy. Plain and simple!!!


If you 'know the Truth'... it will set your FREE!

Brother Mark
May 21st 2008, 05:26 PM
In spite of a popular myth Jesus always had his needs provided for -

John 13:26-27Jesus said, "The one to whom I give this crust of bread after I've dipped it." Then he dipped the crust and gave it to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot. As soon as the bread was in his hand, Satan entered him. "What you must do," said Jesus, "do. Do it and get it over with."

28-29No one around the supper table knew why he said this to him. Some thought that since Judas was their treasurer, Jesus was telling him to buy what they needed for the Feast, or that he should give something to the poor
Notice that it says that he should give something to the poor, showing that Jesus wasn't poor himself.

The following is often taken out of its proper context. It is not saying that Jesus was naked or hungry, but is saying that if such is done to others, it is like they are doing it to him.

His people are often poor. Was Jesus rich? Nothing in scripture suggest that he was. Only some picking around and looking and redefining passages make it so. Jesus did not have a place to lay his head at one point in his ministry, but he had all his needs met. We also know that he went for 40 days without food and water. But his needs were met. We do know that Jesus preached heartily against the love of money.

We also know that he told the rich man to "give away all he had". And then to "come and follow me". Interesting. Leave your wealth and do as I do. Food for thought. Perhaps Jesus had already left his wealth and was an example to the rich man. Would God ever ask a man to do something he himself was unwilling to do?

HisGrace
May 21st 2008, 05:50 PM
What people want, often is not the same as people need. The above promise is about what we need.EdNeed -noun: anything that is necessary but lacking. If so, we must be aware of what is necessary in our lives. I know I don't need a five-bedroom home, so if I am going to prayerfully follow the scriptures I wouldn't ask for a five-bedroom home. The scriptures say that God knows what we need, even before we ask, so He must be expecting us to ask.



He also said that poor people do not need a treasurer. He also said when the woman poored out spices, that Judas said that they should have sold the spices to give to the poor. Creflo said "if Jesus was poor, wouldn't he have qualified to be one of the poor people that Judas was talking about?" But, no, Judas' recommended that they give to the poor (and so obviously they weren't in that category). He also said they were casting lots for garments...which shows that they weren't wearing rags. Quoted another verse that said Jesus had a nice rob which was hemmed from top to bottom (something like that). Also said that the wise men brought him frankencence and gold. Creflo said, "He wasn't poor on that day!" Actually Jesus was wearing seemless gament, which would be considered high quality.


His people are often poor. Was Jesus rich? Nothing in scripture suggest that he was. Only some picking around and looking and redefining passages make it so. Jesus did not have a place to lay his head at one point in his ministry, but he had all his needs met. We also know that he went for 40 days without food and water. But his needs were met. We do know that Jesus preached heartily against the love of money.
Come on, it was his choice to go 40 days without food and water as a way of fasting. He didn't have a place to lay his head because he wasn't welcome in that town and had to go on to the next town. You say all of his needs were met, so he must have never gone without food or clothing. That's exactly the point I am trying to make. If he had a treasury, he didn't have to sponge off of other people or twitch his nose every time we needed something. He was a human and lived like a human.

Someone on the thread said that Jesus would probably have sold the Bentley. If he were like many of the televangelists I have had heard about, he would have given it away.

Brother Mark
May 21st 2008, 05:55 PM
Actually Jesus was wearing seemless gament, which would be considered high quality.

Who put it on him?


Come on, it was his choice to go 40 days without food and water as a way of fasting. He didn't have a place to lay his head because he wasn't welcome in that town and had to go on to the next town. You say all of his needs were met, so he must have never gone without food or clothing. That's exactly the point I am trying to make. If he had a treasury, he didn't have to sponge off of other people or twitch his nose every time we needed something. He was a human and lived like a human.

Someone on the thread said that Jesus would probably have sold the Bentley. If he were like many of the televangelists I have had heard about, he would have given it away.

So, do you think Jesus didn't do what he told th rich young ruler to do?

fewarechosen
May 21st 2008, 05:56 PM
all things are pure to those who are pure.

and all things belong to god.
so a christian owns nothing for all he has is gods
and if he does not covet his money who are we to say he shouldnt have it.

someones calling might to be rich so he can have stores saved up during harsh times. just so gods will can be done as he chooses.

7Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.

8And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
9And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
10He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
11If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? 12And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?

HisGrace
May 21st 2008, 06:06 PM
HisGrace,
Show me one place where Jesus the Christ cast out a 'spirit of poverty' so that afterwards that person could flaunt his wealth and materialism to 'prove' he was a Christian and God was behind him.
What this man in thisWOF church was doing was calling the Holy Ghost which indwelt my heart and was leading me an 'evil' spirit. Now according to my Bible that is blasphemey.... plain and simple. I didn't say that there is a spirit of poverty, just possibly, but the book of Proverbs has some pretty strong words to say about poverty.

Why do you say this was a WOF church. Does it show in its title? Does the preacher call himself a WOF'er?

Reynolds357
May 21st 2008, 06:07 PM
First off, I want to say that I've been saved for 2 years and I still have a lot to learn. I'm very glad I found this forum recently. What I like is that I can post some of the questions that have accumulated in my head over the last 2 years and immediately have some input.

My question in this thread can be a touchy one. It's about the so-called "prosperity" gospel. Many people would say Creflo Dollar preaches this style (himself included). I watch him every single morning while getting ready for work and his program has been a blessing.

I have heard some arguments for and against the "prosperity" gospel. To put it briefly:

Against: The gospel is not about us gaining material wealth, it's about us serving the Lord. He gives us what we need to survive and we shouldn't desire more than that. When we seek to gain material belongings, we are looking to satisfy our own wills.

For: The whole King Solomon argument, the fact that Jesus came to give us life more abundantly, etc.

I guess I just want to hear what some thoughts are on either side of this issue.

I guess 2 of the most interesting things I've heard in favor of material prosperity are as follows:

I believe it was Dr. Fred Price that said something like (paraphrasing), "Yes I drive a Bentley. I drive a Bentley! First of all, the Lord has led me to give away about 99 cars to those in need during my lifetime, so I don't believe He's mad that I have a Bentley. Secondly, I was GIVEN the Bentley by a friend who felt led to give me the Bentley."

My church had a visiting pastor who has planted and oversees something like 100 churches in the Philippines and surrounding areas. He also keeps a residence in the United States. He literally works all over the world. He said something like, "In order to travel to these various parts of the world, money is necessary. In fact, it takes quite a lot of money for myself, my team, and my family to go keep these things going and to do the work the Lord has called us to do. So, my heart is not in the money. The money is just one of many tools, but it's a tool that is very necessary. In many cases, without money, certain things can't get done."

Pros/cons of these statements? Other thoughts?

There are a lot of abuses of the Prosperity Gospel. I am an avid believer in sewing and reaping. The more you sew, the more you reap. The law of Seed, time, and harvest is in operation in this dispensation. How can you argue with Mark 10:30? It does not get much more plain than that. "An hundredfold, here in this time." That does not really leave much gray area now does it?

Reynolds357
May 21st 2008, 06:17 PM
His people are often poor. Was Jesus rich? Nothing in scripture suggest that he was. Only some picking around and looking and redefining passages make it so. Jesus did not have a place to lay his head at one point in his ministry, but he had all his needs met. We also know that he went for 40 days without food and water. But his needs were met. We do know that Jesus preached heartily against the love of money.

We also know that he told the rich man to "give away all he had". And then to "come and follow me". Interesting. Leave your wealth and do as I do. Food for thought. Perhaps Jesus had already left his wealth and was an example to the rich man. Would God ever ask a man to do something he himself was unwilling to do?

Let us honestly evaluate the ministry of Jesus. Jesus was a traveling evangelist. He traveled. He did not own a house because His ministry was a traveling ministry. Jesus was not poor. He had provision for His needs. He also had money. The only instance we see in scripture that Jesus neeed money was when Judas was not there with the money bag and they were asked for the temple tax. Jesus' ministry had money. How much, we do not know. However, we do know that he had a treasurer. To have a treasurer, there must be a treasury.

Why did Jesus tell the rich young ruler to give up his wealth and follow Him? Look at the entire story. The rich young ruler had just pointed out to Jesus that he kept the law. From a legalistic point, the ruler was a keeper of the law and found no fault in himself. Jesus merely pointed out to the rich young ruler that he was not keeping the law. He pointed out to the ruler that he had a god that he held more dear than the true God. The god of the ruler was money. The young ruler was in violatio of the first commandment. Money was above God in the life of the young man. Jesus did not want the man to be poor, He wanted the man to give up his god and give full love and submission to His Father.

HisGrace
May 21st 2008, 06:26 PM
Who put it on him?
Matthew 27: 27Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.

28And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.

29And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!

30And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head.

31And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, AND PUT HIS OWN RAIMENT ON HIM, and led him away to crucify him. .......

35And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.


So, do you think Jesus didn't do what he told th rich young ruler to uproot? No, because the rich young ruler had pride and greed to be uprooted. Jesus could be trusted with money.

ARCHER42
May 21st 2008, 06:31 PM
Why do you say this was a WOF church. Does it show in its title? Does the preacher call himself a WOF'er?
-------------------------------------------------------------

HisGrace,
Yes it was a Word of Faith Church... He was a graduate of RHEMA Bible College and he 'worshiped' and I say that as an understatement.. Kenneth Hagin. One need only look at the 'doctrine' and teachings of this man to see where it leads to.

He teaches that Jesus the Christ was 'born again in Hell'. which is absolutely heresy.. Jesus the Christ is God.. He didn't need to be born again.. that would equate Him with having 'sinned'... He 'knew' NO SIN..

He teaches that Jesus the Christ died 'spiritually'... which is false.... Jesus the Christ died a physical death.. He was put to death in the flesh... His bodily functions stopped but in no way did His 'spirit' die... God can't die...spiritually.. He is God. All the 'fullness' of the Godhead dwelt in Jesus the Christ bodily....

There are alot of teachers out there that 'worship' Kenneth Hagin and believe what he 'teaches' to be truth..

In answering you question.. yes it was a WOF church.. this man's teachings were what he learned at his 'college'....

They are most definately 'doctrines of devils'......

I'm sorry I stand by my beliefs and this is the fact that God isnt against you being prosperous nor against you having things... He gives those 'freely' thru His completed Son's work at the tree. Equating your 'faith' or abundance of it or lack of it to the amount of matieral and monetary wealth is just NOT BIBLICAL... it is heresy..... plain and simple.

Brother Mark
May 21st 2008, 06:35 PM
No, because the rich young ruler had pride and greed to be uprooted. Jesus could be trusted with money.

But he did. He left all of heaven, gave up everything to come here. And while here, he left a stable job and got to the point where he didn't have a place to lay his head. His needs were met. But he wasn't rich and he was telling the young ruler "come live like me". That, the rich man could not do.

What were Peter's words to him? Was Peter rich?


Mark 10:23-31

23 And Jesus, looking around, said to His disciples, "How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!" 24 And the disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 26 And they were even more astonished and said to Him, "Then who can be saved?" 27 Looking upon them, Jesus said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God." 28 Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You." 29 Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake, 30 but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life. 31 "But many who are first, will be last; and the last, first."
NASB

There is a reward in this life and in the life to come. Yet, the call is the same, leave all. Peter heeded the call. And left all. He even said "Silver and gold have I none but that which I have, I give thee. Rise up and walk." Peter, a disciple of God that walked with him every day for 3.5 years, had the power of God but had no money. I find that telling and very interesting. Having learned from Jesus, he had great power, but little wealth.

Brother Mark
May 21st 2008, 06:38 PM
Let us honestly evaluate the ministry of Jesus. Jesus was a traveling evangelist. He traveled. He did not own a house because His ministry was a traveling ministry. Jesus was not poor. He had provision for His needs. He also had money. The only instance we see in scripture that Jesus neeed money was when Judas was not there with the money bag and they were asked for the temple tax. Jesus' ministry had money. How much, we do not know. However, we do know that he had a treasurer. To have a treasurer, there must be a treasury.

Why did Jesus tell the rich young ruler to give up his wealth and follow Him? Look at the entire story. The rich young ruler had just pointed out to Jesus that he kept the law. From a legalistic point, the ruler was a keeper of the law and found no fault in himself. Jesus merely pointed out to the rich young ruler that he was not keeping the law. He pointed out to the ruler that he had a god that he held more dear than the true God. The god of the ruler was money. The young ruler was in violatio of the first commandment. Money was above God in the life of the young man. Jesus did not want the man to be poor, He wanted the man to give up his god and give full love and submission to His Father.

I don't have too much trouble with what you are saying about the ruler. But Jesus didn't casually tell him to forsake all his wealth. It was said to show him his greed. But read on, Peter had forsaken all his wealth and Jesus comforted him. Peter remained so poor that he had to tell someone "silver and gold have I none" but Peter had power to go on and say "That which I have, I give. Rise up and walk."

I have no issues with people being rich. Those that have followed my writings on this board will tell you that. But the teachings that all should rich are ones I have issue with. I would rather be like Peter and have power than be like the rich man and have none.

HisGrace
May 21st 2008, 06:39 PM
HisGrace,
Show me one place where Jesus the Christ cast out a 'spirit of poverty' so that afterwards that person could flaunt his wealth and materialism to 'prove' he was a Christian and God was behind him. The story of the woman and the oil shows how the poverty bondage can be broken. God never allows it to happen to flaunt our wealth, but does it in a way that he alone gets credit.

2 Kings 4
Elisha Helps a Poor Widow
1 One day the widow of a member of the group of prophets came to Elisha and cried out, “My husband who served you is dead, and you know how he feared the Lord. But now a creditor has come, threatening to take my two sons as slaves.”

2 “What can I do to help you?” Elisha asked. “Tell me, what do you have in the house?” “Nothing at all, except a flask of olive oil,” she replied. 3 And Elisha said, “Borrow as many empty jars as you can from your friends and neighbors. 4 Then go into your house with your sons and shut the door behind you. Pour olive oil from your flask into the jars, setting each one aside when it is filled.”

5 So she did as she was told. Her sons kept bringing jars to her, and she filled one after another. 6 Soon every container was full to the brim! “Bring me another jar,” she said to one of her sons. “There aren’t any more!” he told her. And then the olive oil stopped flowing.

7 When she told the man of God what had happened, he said to her, “Now sell the olive oil and pay your debts, and you and your sons can live on what is left over.”

Brother Mark
May 21st 2008, 06:43 PM
The story of the woman and the oil shows how the poverty bondage can be broken. God never allows it to happen to flaunt our wealth, but does it in a way that he alone gets credit.

2 Kings 4
Elisha Helps a Poor Widow
1 One day the widow of a member of the group of prophets came to Elisha and cried out, “My husband who served you is dead, and you know how he feared the Lord. But now a creditor has come, threatening to take my two sons as slaves.”

2 “What can I do to help you?” Elisha asked. “Tell me, what do you have in the house?” “Nothing at all, except a flask of olive oil,” she replied. 3 And Elisha said, “Borrow as many empty jars as you can from your friends and neighbors. 4 Then go into your house with your sons and shut the door behind you. Pour olive oil from your flask into the jars, setting each one aside when it is filled.”

5 So she did as she was told. Her sons kept bringing jars to her, and she filled one after another. 6 Soon every container was full to the brim! “Bring me another jar,” she said to one of her sons. “There aren’t any more!” he told her. And then the olive oil stopped flowing.

7 When she told the man of God what had happened, he said to her, “Now sell the olive oil and pay your debts, and you and your sons can live on what is left over.”

He also provided the jubilee year. God even provided Lazarus, the beggar with his daily bread. But we cannot ignore Hebrews 11 and those folks that lived in caves and holes which scripture says "the world was not worthy" of them. The prosperity movement needs balance in it's teachings.

ARCHER42
May 21st 2008, 07:15 PM
God never allows it to happen to flaunt our wealth, but does it in a way that he alone gets credit.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree He never allows us to flaunt our wealth.. But what do you say to those who say if you are 'poor' or 'lacking'.. you have no faith.. these are the same people who equate their monetary wealth and materialistic gain to their faith.... Do they flaunt it? Yes they do.. its very obvious... but you said God wouldn't allow us to do that... I agree .... not in a prideful attitude... He gets the Credit and Its His sacrafice that provided that.. Jesus the Christ left Heaven.. He left everything.. Did He flaunt His wealth when He was here? He never had 'enormous' wealth or an overabundance of 'things'.. those that were necessary for life. He 'left all' so that He could complete His mission... the reason He was 'sent'.. for salvation.

If you follow these prosperity teachers who go over the line.. here is what it sounds like:

I got lots... I got 'faith'.. you got 'little'... you aint got faith..

If God doesnt allow us to flaunt our wealth, which I agree .. then why do these people flaunt it and equate it to how much faith they have? I wonder what 'god' they are really following.

The real 'root of the problem here is 'sin'... and its the sin of covetousness... ie 'greed'.. Its a condition in 'their' heart...They make 'merchandise' of the flock, hinder the 'growth' of new believers, and teach out of 'greed' or 'covetousness'. The Bible says that this will be very prevalent in the end times. It's here...

The 'fruit' of this type of teaching and doctrine are very clear to see.

He that hath ears let him hear.

Your CALLED to be CONTENT.. in all situations.

HisGrace
May 21st 2008, 07:34 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------
He teaches that Jesus the Christ was 'born again in Hell'. which is absolutely heresy.. Jesus the Christ is God.. He didn't need to be born again.. that would equate Him with having 'sinned'... He 'knew' NO SIN..

He teaches that Jesus the Christ died 'spiritually'... which is false.... Jesus the Christ died a physical death.. He was put to death in the flesh... His bodily functions stopped but in no way did His 'spirit' die... God can't die...spiritually.. He is God. All the 'fullness' of the Godhead dwelt in Jesus the Christ bodily.... I positively know that the WOF'ers agree that Jesus knew no sin. He bore our sins, so it certainly was much more than a physical death. He died to take away the curse of our sins, so he would be symbolizing 'our' spiritual death, not his.

I get upset when many call the WOF interpretation of Jesus's death as heretical. I will defy anyone to tell, with absolute assurance, the sequence of events from his crucifixion to his resurrection. If you don't get it straight, does that make you a heretic? The three days in the grave are likened to Jonah's three days in the belly of the whale and Jonah describes it as being like in hell.

Jonah 1:17 Then God assigned a huge fish to swallow Jonah. Jonah was in the fish's belly three days and nights.

Matthew 12:39-40Jesus said, "You're looking for proof, but you're looking for the wrong kind. All you want is something to titillate your curiosity, satisfy your lust for miracles. The only proof you're going to get is what looks like the absence of proof: Jonah-evidence. Like Jonah, three days and nights in the fish's belly, the Son of Man will be gone three days and nights in a deep grave

Jonah 2 1Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
2And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. 3For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

4Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.

ARCHER42
May 21st 2008, 08:00 PM
I get upset when many call the WOF interpretation of Jesus's death as heretical.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
That's what it is, an 'interpretation'.... Is it Biblical? I find now where in Scripture that says or states that Jesus the Christ needed to 'be born again" He was God.. the fullness of the Godhead Dwelt in Him Bodily....God doesn't need to be 'born again'.... He is God... can't you see the contradiction?

He said 'sinner's needed that... Thru Him, By Him....


Sanctify them thru thy Truth.. for they Word is Truth.

This will be my last post on this... I have spoken my beliefs and admonished those beliefs that are not Biblical plus there have been others who have 'called' you out on your err.

This is not done in anger or resentment but done in Love and its done for the Love of Truth.

Reynolds357
May 21st 2008, 08:21 PM
I don't have too much trouble with what you are saying about the ruler. But Jesus didn't casually tell him to forsake all his wealth. It was said to show him his greed. But read on, Peter had forsaken all his wealth and Jesus comforted him. Peter remained so poor that he had to tell someone "silver and gold have I none" but Peter had power to go on and say "That which I have, I give. Rise up and walk."

I have no issues with people being rich. Those that have followed my writings on this board will tell you that. But the teachings that all should rich are ones I have issue with. I would rather be like Peter and have power than be like the rich man and have none.

I think the prosperity gospel is abused, but that the basis for it are scriptural. If we sew and sew and sew, by the law of seed, time, and harvest, there will come a day when we see the harvest. According to the passage I quoted earlier, Jesus told us that it would be in this lifetime. He promised harvest in this life and the life to come. I think so many people hold to the harvest in the life to come, but neglect Jesus promise of a harvest in this life.

HisGrace
May 21st 2008, 08:25 PM
I get upset when many call the WOF interpretation of Jesus's death as heretical.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
That's what it is, an 'interpretation'.... Is it Biblical?
So please don't use the word 'heretical'.


I find now where in Scripture that says or states that Jesus the Christ needed to 'be born again" He was God.. the fullness of the Godhead Dwelt in Him Bodily....God doesn't need to be 'born again'.... He is God... can't you see the contradiction?
Romans 10:5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

This could symbolize our being raised spiritually from the dead, and being born again.

Reynolds357
May 21st 2008, 08:25 PM
I positively know that the WOF'ers agree that Jesus knew no sin. He bore our sins, so it certainly was much more than a physical death. He died to take away the curse of our sins, so he would be symbolizing 'our' spiritual death, not his.

I get upset when many call the WOF interpretation of Jesus's death as heretical. I will defy anyone to tell, with absolute assurance, the sequence of events from his crucifixion to his resurrection. If you don't get it straight, does that make you a heretic? The three days in the grave are likened to Jonah's three days in the belly of the whale and Jonah describes it as being like in hell.

Jonah 1:17 Then God assigned a huge fish to swallow Jonah. Jonah was in the fish's belly three days and nights.

Matthew 12:39-40Jesus said, "You're looking for proof, but you're looking for the wrong kind. All you want is something to titillate your curiosity, satisfy your lust for miracles. The only proof you're going to get is what looks like the absence of proof: Jonah-evidence. Like Jonah, three days and nights in the fish's belly, the Son of Man will be gone three days and nights in a deep grave

Jonah 2 1Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
2And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. 3For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

4Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.

I am Word of Faith. I find it odd that many Southern baptist pastors I know and am friends with hold the same beliefs I do on Jesus death, yet I get labeled a heretic and they do not. Did Jesus Die Spiritually? Well, that all depends on how you define spiritual death. I define spiritual death as separation from The Father. I was taught that definition in Southern Baptist Seminary before I converted to Word of Faith. Jesus was separated from the Father. The scripture could not be any more plain on that subject. He suffered separation from His father; thus he suffered spiritual death.

Brother Mark
May 21st 2008, 08:27 PM
Jesus didn't die spiritually. He preached to those in prison while his body was dead. I am amazed that is what wof teaches. All I can say is WOW.

Reynolds357
May 21st 2008, 08:33 PM
Jesus didn't die spiritually. He preached to those in prison while his body was dead. I am amazed that is what wof teaches. All I can say is WOW.

At the point in time that Jesus said, "My God, My God, why hath you forsaken me;" he was suffering spiritual death. His father had turned His back on him. Jesus at that moment was separated from His Father. Did Jesus Spirit ever die in the sense that it ceased to have consciousness? No! Did he suffer spiritual death? By the strict definition of Spiritual death, He absolutely did.

Brother Mark
May 21st 2008, 08:40 PM
At the point in time that Jesus said, "My God, My God, why hath you forsaken me;" he was suffering spiritual death. His father had turned His back on him. Jesus at that moment was separated from His Father. Did Jesus Spirit ever die in the sense that it ceased to have consciousness? No! Did he suffer spiritual death? By the strict definition of Spiritual death, He absolutely did.

Jesus was not separated from himself. Ever. He went to paradise and led them captive. He was in Abraham's bosom with the thief on the cross, preaching and leading them to freedom. He was alive to God just as much as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were.

merjorg
May 21st 2008, 08:49 PM
FWIW, our senior pastor is from RHEMA. In almost 2 years, I've never heard him mention Hagin, Word of Faith, or Jesus dying spiritually. I believe he teaches that Jesus was separated from the Father.

On that note, though, aren't people who are away from God said to be "perishing"?

HisGrace
May 21st 2008, 08:59 PM
Jesus was not separated from himself. Ever. He went to paradise and led them captive. He was in Abraham's bosom with the thief on the cross, preaching and leading them to freedom. He was alive to God just as much as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were. Reynolds357 didn't say Jesus was separated from himself, but from his father. God wouldn't have gone to the deep grave. Comparing it to Jonah's experience, Jonah described it like being in Hell.

Matthew 12:39-40Jesus said, "You're looking for proof, but you're looking for the wrong kind. All you want is something to titillate your curiosity, satisfy your lust for miracles. The only proof you're going to get is what looks like the absence of proof: Jonah-evidence. Like Jonah, three days and nights in the fish's belly, the Son of Man will be gone three days and nights in a deep grave.

Partaker of Christ
May 21st 2008, 09:22 PM
Sad isn't it. When the church goes after money, we won't hear as much about it today.


As I said before, he used money. But didn't need it. And guess who he let keep the treasury? A thief! He knew he was thief and let him have it. He knew Judas pilfered through the money and stole it. Yet, Jesus never confronted him about it. Why? Because Jesus didn't love money.

Yep. God uses money. Doesn't need it though. ;) That's the whole point. People going after "these things" instead of the kingdom is what Jesus preached against. What's interesting is when they start going after the kingdom, they start giving away "these things". Oh, and they don't mind being stole from either.

Only after the prospering of the soul. There are plenty of passages concerning prosperity and I have quoted them too. But God doesn't love money nor should we. A man can't serve two masters. Want to know what God said about money?

1 Tim 6:9-10
9 But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang.
NASB

So then, the question becomes "Do you want to be rich?" If the desire is to be rich, then beware of the many temptations and snares that will accompany it. If God makes you rich, praise the Lord. To seek after wealth is to ignore the call of the Kingdom. For man cannot serve both God and mammon.

Hi Brother Mark!

I fully agree with most all your points made in this thread.

I have never been a real 'big' lover of money or material wealth. Having been raised on what in the UK, is called 'below the poverty line', I have often wanted a 'comfortable' lifestyle.
There was for me 'subtle' love for money, but it was not for material gain. I have often 'were possible' been a generous man, and I use to think that if I ever had a lot of money, I would give some to so and so, and so much to him or her. I would think to go and help as many needy as I could.
The evil that I had in my heart, was that I wanted and enjoyed the praises of the people.

Even today, this evil can raise up within me, and I have to keep a check on the motives and intents of my heart.

Brother Mark
May 22nd 2008, 08:23 AM
Hi Brother Mark!

I fully agree with most all your points made in this thread.

I have never been a real 'big' lover of money or material wealth. Having been raised on what in the UK, is called 'below the poverty line', I have often wanted a 'comfortable' lifestyle.
There was for me 'subtle' love for money, but it was not for material gain. I have often 'were possible' been a generous man, and I use to think that if I ever had a lot of money, I would give some to so and so, and so much to him or her. I would think to go and help as many needy as I could.
The evil that I had in my heart, was that I wanted and enjoyed the praises of the people.

Even today, this evil can raise up within me, and I have to keep a check on the motives and intents of my heart.

It's hard to love two masters. I have been rich. I have been poor. I've experienced both sides. And love of money can be had in both arenas. I understand exactly what you mean about a comfortable life. God has dealt with me about that in so many areas. It's not just about money, but in everything!

Brother Mark
May 22nd 2008, 08:26 AM
Reynolds357 didn't say Jesus was separated from himself, but from his father. God wouldn't have gone to the deep grave. Comparing it to Jonah's experience, Jonah described it like being in Hell.

Matthew 12:39-40Jesus said, "You're looking for proof, but you're looking for the wrong kind. All you want is something to titillate your curiosity, satisfy your lust for miracles. The only proof you're going to get is what looks like the absence of proof: Jonah-evidence. Like Jonah, three days and nights in the fish's belly, the Son of Man will be gone three days and nights in a deep grave.

Jesus went to paradise, as he said to the thief on the cross "Today, thou wilt be with me in paradise". If folks are preaching otherwise, they are preaching wrongly. Folks in hell can hear folks in paradise as we saw with the rich man in hell and the poor man, Lazarus, in heaven. In 1 Peter, we know Jesus preached to those in paradise and those in hell. Those in hell heard just like the rich man heard Abraham.

The sign was simply 3 days dead. Let's not get carried away into preaching falsely that Jesus went to hell, the place of torment. He didn't. We know from Psalms 139 that God is everywhere, including paradise.

Brother Mark
May 22nd 2008, 08:30 AM
FWIW, our senior pastor is from RHEMA. In almost 2 years, I've never heard him mention Hagin, Word of Faith, or Jesus dying spiritually. I believe he teaches that Jesus was separated from the Father.

On that note, though, aren't people who are away from God said to be "perishing"?

Did he encourage you to watch those TV preachers? Just be very careful. Love of money is crafty thing that can deceive us. In John 4, Jesus taught how the physical represented the spiritual. For those that were spiritually hungry, he stayed. In John 6, he taught the same thing. But many insisted on being blessed physically and he ran them off and wouldn't stay.

Please, don't get so caught up in the physical that it becomes a stumbling block to you and those you love.

Reynolds357
May 22nd 2008, 01:33 PM
Jesus was not separated from himself. Ever. He went to paradise and led them captive. He was in Abraham's bosom with the thief on the cross, preaching and leading them to freedom. He was alive to God just as much as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were.

At the point and time Jesus said my God, my God, Why have you forsaken me, He was separated from the Father, He was separated from the Holy Spirit. He had suffered Spiritual death because His Spirit was at that time separated from and isolated from His Father. He bore in His Spirit the Sin of the World. God the Father could not be attached to the sin of the world. The sin of the world caused separation between the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of His Father. By the definition of spiritual death, Jesus suffered spiritual death.

Where Jesus went after His physical death is debatable. There is not even consensus on that within the major denominations. Both views have their points based on scripture. The problem is scripture is vague and from what we are given, we can not hold a dogmatic stance.

Brother Mark
May 22nd 2008, 01:39 PM
At the point and time Jesus said my God, my God, Why have you forsaken me, He was separated from the Father, He was separated from the Holy Spirit. He had suffered Spiritual death because His Spirit was at that time separated from and isolated from His Father. He bore in His Spirit the Sin of the World. God the Father could not be attached to the sin of the world. The sin of the world caused separation between the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of His Father. By the definition of spiritual death, Jesus suffered spiritual death.

Where Jesus went after His physical death is debatable. There is not even consensus on that within the major denominations. Both views have their points based on scripture. The problem is scripture is vague and from what we are given, we can not hold a dogmatic stance.

Jesus remained God and his spirit was still God. That is the point I am making. Along with the point that Jesus did not need to be "born again" in hell. Scripture is pretty clear that he went to paradise. Not a lot of room for disagreement on that. That's what he told the thief.

Jesus did not cease to be God while his body was dead. That is a very important point. No need for God to be born again.

Reynolds357
May 22nd 2008, 02:04 PM
Jesus remained God and his spirit was still God. That is the point I am making. Along with the point that Jesus did not need to be "born again" in hell. Scripture is pretty clear that he went to paradise. Not a lot of room for disagreement on that. That's what he told the thief.

Jesus did not cease to be God while his body was dead. That is a very important point. No need for God to be born again.

The point I am making is that Jesus separation from His Father constituted spiritual death. When His spirit re-established fellowship with His Father, He was again Spiritually alive. The separation from His Father caused Him great agony. He suffered Spiritual death, and all its torment. He had borne the sin of the world. He had willingly borne the sin of the world onto His Righteous Spirit. When the Sin of the World was Borne by Him, His Father withdrew from Him. Jesus righteous spirit had become sin because He willingly bore the Sin of the World.

It is my contention that Jesus suffered Spiritual death because He was separated from His Father. His spirit never died in the cense that it ceased to exist. The definition I use for spiritual death is Separation from the Father. If you contend that Jesus not being separate from Himself allowed Him to not be spiritually dead; then we merely disagree on the definition of Spiritual death. If you contend that Jesus spirit remaining in fellowship with itsself constitutes spiritual life, then our only disagreement is on definition.

As to where Jesus was the entire 3 days and nights, I am not dogmatic on that point because clear enough scripture does not exist to be dogmatic. He definitely was in paradise (Abrahan's Boosom) part of that time. Jesus holds the Keys of Death and Hell. Whether or not He stripped Satan of those Keys in Hell is again a point that scripture is not plain enough on for us to be dogmatic about. I am not saying He did, I am saying that the possiblity exists.

Brother Mark
May 22nd 2008, 02:31 PM
So, was Jesus still God when his body was dead?

fewarechosen
May 22nd 2008, 02:34 PM
the holy ghost can never die.
christ had the holy ghost.
his body died.

HisGrace
May 22nd 2008, 07:13 PM
the holy ghost can never die.
christ had the holy ghost.
his body died.Luke 23: 46And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Brother Mark
May 22nd 2008, 07:35 PM
Luke 23: 46And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Did Jesus cease to be God when he died?

merjorg
May 22nd 2008, 08:20 PM
Did Jesus cease to be God when he died?

I'm going with "no"...final answer.

BrotherMark, is this to say that since He was still God that He couldn't possibly have been apart from the Father? Or just that He wasn't in hell? I think "Reynolds" is just saying that He was apart from the Father and that this fact meets his (Reynolds') definition of spiritual death. His definition of "spiritual death" is being apart from the Father. Sin separates us from God and when Jesus took on the sins of the world, He was separated from the Father. He was still God, but He was indeed separated from the Father.

He was terribly agonized over this separation that He was facing, wasn't He? Or was He only in agony because of the physical pain He would endure?

This last question reminds me of something I wondered about when I first read up on the crucifixion. The bible says to not worry about anything. Was Jesus' worried? Or does the fact that He prayed to the Father illustrate how we are to handle situations that cause distress?

HisGrace
May 22nd 2008, 08:29 PM
Did Jesus cease to be God when he died?We must remember that Jesus was born of flesh and became as a human.

Phil 2:6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Like us, Jesus, the human, had to turn to God for his power. We have that same power through the Holy Spirit.

John 14:10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I speak are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me. 11 Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe because of the work you have seen me do.

12 “I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father. 13 You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, so that the Son can bring glory to the Father. 14 Yes, ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it!

Brother Mark
May 22nd 2008, 08:37 PM
We must remember that Jesus was born of flesh and became as a human.

Phil 2:6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Like us, Jesus, the human, had to turn to God for his power. We have that same power through the Holy Spirit.

John 14:10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I speak are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me. 11 Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe because of the work you have seen me do.

12 “I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father. 13 You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, so that the Son can bring glory to the Father. 14 Yes, ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it!

You still didn't answer the question. Did Jesus cease to be God when his flesh died?

ARCHER42
May 22nd 2008, 08:37 PM
We must remember that Jesus was born of flesh and became as a human.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes He was God in the flesh.. The Fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Him BODILY.... at no time did He loose His Divinity before Death or After death... HE DID NOT NEED TO BE BORN AGAIN... PERIOD!!~!@

God does not need to be BORN AGAIN..... Even when He is God in the flesh!

Brother Mark
May 22nd 2008, 09:01 PM
I'm going with "no"...final answer.

BrotherMark, is this to say that since He was still God that He couldn't possibly have been apart from the Father? Or just that He wasn't in hell? I think "Reynolds" is just saying that He was apart from the Father and that this fact meets his (Reynolds') definition of spiritual death. His definition of "spiritual death" is being apart from the Father. Sin separates us from God and when Jesus took on the sins of the world, He was separated from the Father. He was still God, but He was indeed separated from the Father.

He was terribly agonized over this separation that He was facing, wasn't He? Or was He only in agony because of the physical pain He would endure?

This last question reminds me of something I wondered about when I first read up on the crucifixion. The bible says to not worry about anything. Was Jesus' worried? Or does the fact that He prayed to the Father illustrate how we are to handle situations that cause distress?

Please be careful. Did you notice that the other 2 folks won't answer the question about Jesus? They won't answer that Jesus was still God after his flesh died. Be careful what you are fed. There is balance in the words of Christ. When one starts teaching an unbalanced view of money with no speaking of suffering, and taking up our cross, and warning against the love of money, then there is great peril.

fewarechosen
May 22nd 2008, 09:35 PM
his body died -hence gave up the ghost. but the ghost never died.

HisGrace
May 22nd 2008, 09:45 PM
You still didn't answer the question. Did Jesus cease to be God when his flesh died?Jesus went to the cross as a human being, and the Holy Spirit left his flesh when he died.(he gave up the ghost.)

The scriptures say for sure that he lived as a human, but when did regain his diety back?? Upon his resurrection? I would say perhaps not because he asked for something to eat, and the nailprints were still in his hands. He also had Thomas check out the wound on his side.

The Bible says that God raised Jesus from the dead.

1 Cor. 15:15 And we apostles would all be lying about God—for we have said that God raised Christ from the grave.

I would think that he regained his diety back whenever he ascended into heaven, with a new glorified body, and was seated at the right hand of God.

Eph 1: 19 I also pray that you will understand the incredible greatness of God’s power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power 20 that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms. 21 Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else—not only in this world but also in the world to come. 22 God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church. 23 And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself.

Brother Mark
May 22nd 2008, 09:54 PM
Jesus went to the cross as a human being, and the Holy Spirit left his flesh when he died.(he gave up the ghost.)

Did Jesus become deity only when he was baptized in the Spirit? Was he only a human when he died?


The scriptures say for sure that he lived as a human, but when did regain his diety back?? Upon his resurrection? I would say perhaps not because he asked for something to eat, and the nailprints were still in his hands. He also had Thomas check out the wound on his side.

And what of this scripture?

Isa 49:14-16

14 But Zion said, "The Lord has forsaken me,
And the Lord has forgotten me."
15 "Can a woman forget her nursing child,
And have no compassion on the son of her womb?
Even these may forget, but I will not forget you.
16 "Behold, I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands;
Your walls are continually before Me.
NASB

God inscribed us on his hands. That would be Jesus.

HisGrace
May 22nd 2008, 10:05 PM
Did Jesus become deity only when he was baptized in the Spirit? Was he only a human when he died? Yes he was a human when he died. That was the whole point of his coming to this earth as flesh. He bore the sins of us humans on the cross and felt the human pain.


And what of this scripture?

Isa 49:14-16

14 But Zion said, "The Lord has forsaken me,
And the Lord has forgotten me."
15 "Can a woman forget her nursing child,
And have no compassion on the son of her womb?
Even these may forget, but I will not forget you.
16 "Behold, I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands;
Your walls are continually before Me.
NASB
God inscribed us on his hands. That would be Jesus. What's your point? That could be a replacement for the nailprints.

Brother Mark
May 22nd 2008, 10:08 PM
Yes he was a human when he died. That was the whole point of his coming to this earth as flesh. He bore the sins of us humans on the cross and felt the human pain.

I didn't ask if he was human. I asked if he was ONLY human when he died. When did he become God the first time? Was it when he was baptized with the spirit? Was he born God? Was he God when he died?


What's your point? That could be a replacement for the nailprints.


That God will have nail prints forever as part of the covenant.

fewarechosen
May 22nd 2008, 10:40 PM
brother mark i want to understand where you are coming from so i can try to answer the question.

are you saying he became god?
now why if he was god would he say not to call him good but to only call the father good ?

and i am in no way saying he was not god-but curious as to why you think christ said that

ARCHER42
May 22nd 2008, 11:29 PM
I would think that he regained his diety back whenever he ascended into heaven, with a new glorified body, and was seated at the right hand of God.
------------------------------------------------------------
He never lost His Diety in the first Place... When He was put to death in the flesh.. He didn't go 'un-god' and then when He arose again become God again.. What foolishness! Do you realize what your doing to His Divinity and Diety?
Jesus Christ Himself is Eternal.. There is no beginning to Him and there is no end to Him... At the correct or ordained time in history He stepped out of Eternity where He was God and into time to put on flesh.. He was God before that and He was God in the Flesh when He finsished His ministry and was crucified. He was God after they crucified Him. He was God when He arose from the dead... He was God when He ascended back into Heaven.. He stepped back into Eternity which is not limited by our days, hours minutes.... He is God now in His glorified Body seated at the Right Hand of the Father...

Thats why He said.. 'before Abraham was......... I AM...

those religious leaders of His day that didn't believe He was the Messiah.. God in the flesh... Seems like we have that problem today too..

The Holy Trinity has 'ALWAYS BEEN'... Any attack or watering down of that .. per say their Diety or Divinity is what I call 'heretical'..... and should be judged accordingly...

Revinius
May 23rd 2008, 03:16 AM
brother mark i want to understand where you are coming from so i can try to answer the question.

are you saying he became god?
now why if he was god would he say not to call him good but to only call the father good ?

and i am in no way saying he was not god-but curious as to why you think christ said that

He was commenting on how the man thought he was simply a teacher. For Him to be good He would have to be God, the irony is He was good thus.....do the maths. :)

HisGrace
May 23rd 2008, 03:30 AM
I think some of you are choosing to ignore what I am saying, just to keep an argument going, and I am finding it more difficult to explain what I really mean.

Yes, he was God in the flesh, but many don’t understand how he chose to be completedly humbled and emptied to take on the likeness of a man. By doing so he had to take all of the baggage with it, all for us. He had to eat, he had to pay his taxes, he got weary. He had to pray to his Heavenly Father, and most of all he was tempted in every area to understand what we go through. He was called the Son of Man and considered to be the lineage of David.

I believe very strongly in the Trinity but it is hard to explain with a human element being introduced into the mix..

Please pay close attention to the following scriptures, because they help us understand how human he really was. It does say that this 'man' died on the cross.


We must remember that Jesus was born of flesh and became as a human.

Phil 2:6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


John 14:10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I speak are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me. 11 Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe because of the work you have seen me do.

12 “I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father. 13 You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, so that the Son can bring glory to the Father. 14 Yes, ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it!

I don't like the tone of some of your posts, and refuse to be part of this argument anymore. Besides we are away off topic.

ARCHER42
May 23rd 2008, 04:13 AM
I believe very strongly in the Trinity but it is hard to explain with a human element being introduced into the mix..

-------------------------------------------------------------
If you believe strongly in the Holy Trinity then you would understand that at NO TIME.. did Jesus the Christ become Un-God and have to be born again to become 'God again'... Especially at the CROSS Thats utter foolishness....If my tone is too hard or brash then its a tone I'll continue to use to 'defend' the faith..

Its not hard to understand the human element in Jesus the Christ.. He was God before He put on flesh He was God in the flesh during His ministry.... He was God when they crucified Him and He was God after He was put to death in the flesh.. He was God when He arose from the dead and Ascended back into Heaven!.... there is no if's and's or but's about it... Plain and Simple.....

there is no end to Him and there is no beginning to Him...

He is from everlasting to everlasting..

He never once LOST His Divinity or Diety.. especially after He was crucified.....and He didn't have to be 'born again'... PERIOD

ARCHER42
May 23rd 2008, 05:35 AM
[quote=Reynolds357;1647299]He bore in His Spirit the Sin of the World.
quote]

----------------------------------------------------------
Who His own self bare our sins in His Own BODY on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye are healed.
1 Peter 2: 24


The sins of the world and the sins of believers were 'bore' in His body... on the TREE.....God can't die spiritually.. that is a contradiction and err.! Jesus the Christ was three part.. body soul and spirit...His flesh was put to death but not once did His soul or spirit
die or did he 'die' spiritually... Spiritual Death is the Lake of Fire..... This is what Gave Him the Victory over Death Hell and the Grave and over the devil himself. The victory is that thru His physcial death He defeated Death.. Neither did he have to be Born Again in Hell .... utter foolishness..

Revinius
May 23rd 2008, 06:06 AM
He was 100% God and 100% man, what this has to do with prosperity teachings puzzles me. :confused

Brother Mark
May 23rd 2008, 11:54 AM
I think some of you are choosing to ignore what I am saying, just to keep an argument going, and I am finding it more difficult to explain what I really mean.

Yes, he was God in the flesh...,

Just trying to clarify some things. See, when you say Jesus ceased to be God when he "gave up the ghost", that opens all kinds of things up. For instance, did he become God when the Holy Spirit came upon him during his baptism? Do you understand what I mean?

Another question, if it is the Spirit that makes Jesus God, do we become Gods when the Holy Spirit comes upon us?


Please pay close attention to the following scriptures, because they help us understand how human he really was. It does say that this 'man' died on the cross.

No one is questioning his humanity. We all agree he was human. I just want to make sure about this thing where he ceased being God.

Brother Mark
May 23rd 2008, 11:55 AM
I don't like the tone of some of your posts, and refuse to be part of this argument anymore. Besides we are away off topic.

The deity of Christ is relevant to every thread on this board. ;)

HisGrace
May 23rd 2008, 03:00 PM
Please don't try to twist my words guys -

He never once LOST His Divinity or Diety.. especially after He was crucified.....and He didn't have to be 'born again'... PERIODI never used the term that he had to be born again.

I said Romans 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

This could symbolize OUR being raised spiritually from the dead, and being born again, thus meaning OUR being born again.


Just trying to clarify some things. See, when you say Jesus ceased to be God when he "gave up the ghost", that opens all kinds of things up. I didn't say that Jesus ceased to be God when he gave up the ghost. Like when we die, he commended his spirit to his father, meaning it didn't die.. How he was made into the likeness of a man is explained clearly in Phl 2:6, which happened when he came to this earth as flesh.

Again for the third time
Phil 2:6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


Another question, if it is the Spirit that makes Jesus God, do we become Gods when the Holy Spirit comes upon us? We become Christ-like when we are filled with the Holy Spirit.

The only thing I regret saying is "The scriptures say for sure that he lived as a human, but when did regain his diety back?? " I know that Jesus was always Holy, but what I meant by that was when did he give up all of his human traits and become nothing but total deity again.

Irene
May 23rd 2008, 10:59 PM
I believe JESUS is GOD and Man and HE was the ONLY one who could PERFECTLY keep the Covenant given to Moses...

if you notice in the OT everytime a convenat was made blood was shed...This is the reason HE shed drops of blood, scurged, and hung on the cross and after he died stabbed with a sword...that is why the BLOOD is so POWERFUL...It was the Blood that sealed the Covenant for you and me...

some of you may not agree with me but this is what I believe


btw I thought this thread was about the prosperity gospel how did it come to discussing when JESUS began GOD man etc? sorry i did not read all the pages

Brother Mark
May 23rd 2008, 11:59 PM
The only thing I regret saying is "The scriptures say for sure that he lived as a human, but when did regain his diety back?? " I know that Jesus was always Holy, but what I meant by that was when did he give up all of his human traits and become nothing but total deity again.

Maybe I am a little confused. But Jesus was always total deity. That's WHO he was. Now, he emptied himself and gave up many powers but he kept, in character, all of God and his place as God. So he was never not total deity. If you mean when did he change forms and lay down flesh and take up again his powers of God, that I understand.

But, go and check some folks posts above that were supporting your position. They did say Jesus was born again and suggested that he did cease to be God.

Jesus was human and God at the same time. He never once ceased being full deity and fully God.

HisGrace
May 24th 2008, 01:19 AM
Jesus was human and God at the same time. He never once ceased being full deity and fully God.See, your statements seem to contradict each other. Exactly what I am trying to explain. I have nothing further to add.

:OFFT:

In spite of their constant complaining, God took care of every need of the Israelites in the wilderness.

Pharoah allowed them to take all of their herds with them out of Egypt.
Ex 12:32Also take your flocks and your herds, as ye have said, and be gone; and bless me also.

Ex 15:23And when they came to Marah, they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah.
24And the people murmured against Moses, saying, What shall we drink?

25And he cried unto the LORD; and the LORD shewed him a tree, which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved them,

26And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

27And they came to Elim, where were twelve wells of water, and threescore and ten palm trees: and they encamped there by the waters.

Ex 16:4Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

5And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily. ......

11And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 12I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God.

13And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host.

Numbers 20:10 Then he and Aaron summoned the people to come and gather at the rock. “Listen, you rebels!” he shouted. “Must we bring you water from this rock?” 11 Then Moses raised his hand and struck the rock twice with the staff, and water gushed out. So the entire community and their livestock drank their fill.

Deut 8: 4Thy raiment waxed not old upon thee, neither did thy foot swell, these forty years.
Deut 29:5 5And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.

Brother Mark
May 24th 2008, 01:24 AM
See, your statements seem to contradict each other. Exactly what I am trying to explain. I have nothing further to add.

My statements are biblical. For Jesus was God and man. Jesus left power but he didn't leave who he was. That's important. I don't think you have clarified yourself. Are you willing to leave it murky? I ask simple questions. Was Jesus always God? Was there ever a time he wasn't God? I understand he was man. We all know that.

Just for clarity's sake... was there ever a time when Jesus ceased being God?

Reynolds357
May 24th 2008, 01:28 AM
So, was Jesus still God when his body was dead?

He was not The Father. He never was the Father. He never will be the Father. He was the Son, and always will be the Son. The son is 1/3rd of the Godhead body. His separation from His father constitued Spiritual death. The fact that He was still the Son is irrelavent to the issue of separation from the Father.

timmyb
May 24th 2008, 01:31 AM
there is such a thing as a poverty spirit... but it's more about being anxious over money... i've had a poverty spirit with 100 dollars as much as none... and i can be delivered from a poverty spirit by giving my money.... it's not about having wealth... it's about a condition of spirit

ARCHER42
May 24th 2008, 01:46 AM
He was not The Father. He never was the Father. He never will be the Father. He was the Son, and always will be the Son. The son is 1/3rd of the Godhead body. His separation from His father constitued Spiritual death. The fact that He was still the Son is irrelavent to the issue of separation from the Father.
-------------------------------------------------------------
HOGWASH.. Jesus the Christ did not die SPIRITUALLY... He is God...

At the cross......... Father, "Into" thy Hands I commend my spirit.. He didn't die spiritually.. He didnt die spritually and then have to be born again IN HELL....... that is outright garbage...

It is doctrines of devils.... Period!!

timmyb
May 24th 2008, 01:58 AM
-------------------------------------------------------------
HOGWASH.. Jesus the Christ did not die SPIRITUALLY... He is God...

At the cross......... Father, "Into" thy Hands I commend my spirit.. He didn't die spiritually.. He didnt die spritually and then have to be born again IN HELL....... that is outright garbage...

It is doctrines of devils.... Period!!

i totally agree...

Revinius
May 24th 2008, 05:05 AM
I will say again: Jesus is 100% God, the Father is 100% God and ths Spirit is 100% God. God surpasses mathematics in His triunity.

ARCHER42
May 24th 2008, 01:46 PM
He was not The Father. He never was the Father. He never will be the Father.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Pretty much clears any 'misconception' up ... or lack of understanding..

Jesus speaking to the Jews who also had problems with their 'theology' and couldn't understand the Godhead because they were so rooted in their 'man made' teachings and their unbelief. He spoke of them as a brood of vipers.. and doing things as their father did, that is the devil... who never 'abode' in the truth.. for he is a liar and the father of it. He even went on to say that it would be almost impossible for them to escape the damnation of hell due to their teachings and stiffnecks and hardness of heart.


I and My Father are One.

John 10:30

The Trinity is not made up of 3 different Gods.... But One God... in three Personalities... all CO-EQUAL AND NOT SEPARATE ......Period!

We need to pray for people who have been so subtily decieved by the serpent into believeing a false doctrine like this.... May God's wisdom and understanding Pierce that vail of Darkness.

HisGrace
May 24th 2008, 03:22 PM
He was not The Father. He never was the Father. He never will be the Father. He was the Son, and always will be the Son. The son is 1/3rd of the Godhead body.

Eph. 1:19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

2 John 1:9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2 Tim 1:2To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 2: 22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Acts 2:23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father


His separation from His father constitued Spiritual death. The fact that He was still the Son is irrelavent to the issue of separation from the Father. I haven't come across any scriptures where it says he was spiritually dead, but he did go through some unbelievable brokenness by bearing our sins on the cross.

He went to the grave and it wasn't a very pleasant experience.

Isaiah 53:7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Acts 2:23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Isaiah 53: 12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: And he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Revinius
May 24th 2008, 04:13 PM
Father, Spirit and Jesus are God and they are spiritually and equally God. Their is no spiritual heirachy but there is a functional one. Functionally: The Spirit submits to the Son and the Son to the Father. Spiritually, they are all one and all equal in their perfect relational oneness.

ARCHER42
May 24th 2008, 04:51 PM
[quote=HisGrace;1649753]Wow - where's the love?...:eek:



quote]


Where's the TRUTH????

The problem today is that you have a 'love' 'based on ' the acceptance' of half truths... and lies....... Its the acceptance of these as Truth itself. Anybody who doesnt accept it or will stand for the Truth is considered to be 'not loving' , critical, or just 'not going with the flow', or not even 'saved' per say.

This is not a flesh and blood problem.. its a spiritual problem... God sees it and He understands... He's not suprised by whats going on.. Its actually prophesied that this time would come... This warfare is carried out in the heavenlies and the 'results' are seen on this planet. Both sides... deception and the advancement of the Truth.

The 'easy going' - free Gospel of love >>>>> i.e . 'we don't care what your beliefs are or what your doctrine is ... come on in.. we'll all just be in a bubble of love. is really no Gospel at all...

Real LOVE Defends the truth.... intercedes for those in darkness and deception, praying that they would be brought back to the narrow way.. That they would be brought out of darkness and back to the 'TRUE' Sheperd and Bishop of your soul.. That is the Son of Man . Jesus the Christ who is God in the flesh...

Having fellowship with these 'half truths' and lies and accepting them as Truth...because we must 'love' is just not Biblical. Those who are 'led of the Spirit will understand and act accordingly.

Brother Mark
May 24th 2008, 04:55 PM
Real LOVE Defends the truth.... intercedes for those in darkness and deception, praying that they would be brought back to the narrow way.. That they would be brought out of darkness and back to the 'TRUE' Sheperd and Bishop of your soul.. That is the Son of Man . Jesus the Christ who is God in the flesh...

Real love doesn't defend the truth. Truth needs no defense. I Cor 13 tells us what real love is. Jesus preached woe to the Pharisees and then wept over them.

Reynolds357
May 24th 2008, 05:06 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------
HOGWASH.. Jesus the Christ did not die SPIRITUALLY... He is God...

At the cross......... Father, "Into" thy Hands I commend my spirit.. He didn't die spiritually.. He didnt die spritually and then have to be born again IN HELL....... that is outright garbage...

It is doctrines of devils.... Period!!


Glad to see that you show so much Christian love. Did I ever say jesus was ressurrected in Hell? No! Did I say His Spirit ceased to exist? No! I said Jesus Spirit suffered separation from the Spirit of His Father. Separation from the Father constitutes Spiritual death by definition of the term. Jesus and His father were one and are one. That is one of the main reasons that Jesus Spirit was separated from His Father's Spirit. When Jesus physical body died, Jesus then committed His Spirit to the Father. Their Spirits were re-united. His agony of separation was over.The spirit of the Father can not be corrupted by bearing the Sin of the world. If you would read what I post instead of making the false accusation that I hold views I do not hold, we could avoid such disrespectful posting. Where did I say Jesus was raised in Hell? Try reading thoroughly before leveling slanderous accusation against a fellow believer.

Reynolds357
May 24th 2008, 05:16 PM
[quote=Reynolds357;1647299]He bore in His Spirit the Sin of the World.
quote]

----------------------------------------------------------
Who His own self bare our sins in His Own BODY on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye are healed.
1 Peter 2: 24


The sins of the world and the sins of believers were 'bore' in His body... on the TREE.....God can't die spiritually.. that is a contradiction and err.! Jesus the Christ was three part.. body soul and spirit...His flesh was put to death but not once did His soul or spirit
die or did he 'die' spiritually... Spiritual Death is the Lake of Fire..... This is what Gave Him the Victory over Death Hell and the Grave and over the devil himself. The victory is that thru His physcial death He defeated Death.. Neither did he have to be Born Again in Hell .... utter foolishness..

Again, if you would take the time to read what I say, you could avoid such heated and slanderous posts. Early in the debate, I laid forth the definition of Spiritual death that I hold Christ suffered. I said Jesus suffered Separation from the Father. The definition of Spiritual death I am using is Separation from the Father. The Separation of Christ body from the Father did nothing to Cause Christ the torment that He suffered. He suffered torment because the sins He bore, on Himself, separated His Spirit from the Spirit of His Father. "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?" I established very early the definition of Spiritual death that I applied, if you would be so kind as to read my entire line of reasoning, you could avoid such false accusations. Again, please show me where I say Christ was born again in hell. I would also like to point out that using the term "fool" or any of its derivations when dealing with a fellow believer was strictly forbidden by our Lord and Savior.

ARCHER42
May 24th 2008, 05:19 PM
Real love doesn't defend the truth. Truth needs no defense. I Cor 13 tells us what real love is. Jesus preached woe to the Pharisees and then wept over them.
------------------------------------------------------------------

I disagree with this statement 100 percent.. The Apostle Paul was 'set' in defense of the Gospel 'delivered' to Him... He not only preached and 'penned' alot of the NT under the direction of the Holy Ghost but He was 'set' in the Defense of the Gospel. Defending what what delivered to him....Why do you think he warned those in the Book of Acts that upon his departing 'grevious 'wolves' will enter in not 'sparing the flock'.....Real Love defends the Truth... I stand by my statement..

The verses in 1 Cor. 13 is are verses that have been twisted and 'watered' down so badly ... Real Love does not accept half truths and lies as the truth.. just because we must love......

I'm not going to get into a long drawn out debate here... I'm done with this thread... unless I'm led otherwise...

HisGrace
May 24th 2008, 06:39 PM
Having fellowship with these 'half truths' and lies and accepting them as Truth...because we must 'love' is just not Biblical. Those who are 'led of the Spirit will understand and act accordingly. Love is always Biblical.
1 Cor. 13:4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.

Some faith groups believe they have to knock people over the head with their own judgmental views and anything that goes against their own personal interpretation of the Bible is heretical. The Bible says we are supposed to guard our words, unless we be judged.

True stewardships walks people through the truth, planting a seed and leaving the rest to the Holy Spirit. With this 'hammer over the head' doctrine ,where does faith step in to let go and leave the rest to God to do his part?

1 Cor. 13:2 If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing.

Brother Mark
May 24th 2008, 06:44 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------

I disagree with this statement 100 percent.. The Apostle Paul was 'set' in defense of the Gospel 'delivered' to Him... He not only preached and 'penned' alot of the NT under the direction of the Holy Ghost but He was 'set' in the Defense of the Gospel. Defending what what delivered to him....Why do you think he warned those in the Book of Acts that upon his departing 'grevious 'wolves' will enter in not 'sparing the flock'.....Real Love defends the Truth... I stand by my statement..

The verses in 1 Cor. 13 is are verses that have been twisted and 'watered' down so badly ... Real Love does not accept half truths and lies as the truth.. just because we must love......

I'm not going to get into a long drawn out debate here... I'm done with this thread... unless I'm led otherwise...

Truth will stand regardless. It doesn't need defending. People, on the other hand, need the truth to live.

ARCHER42
May 24th 2008, 08:57 PM
You say I'm' lacking love ... so

Let me give you a little testimony as to How I was taught to love...

How many of you after coming to the Saving Knowledge of Jesus The Christ and being born again had those immediately family members reject you because of your beliefs.. How many of you were immediately hurt and didnt understand. How many of you 'wept' because of it.... How many of you were angry at them and wanted to become Bitter and wanted God to send lightning down from Heaven and to take care of them because of their unbelief... How many of you have heard The Voice of God tell you and understand His gentle reminder from His Word......

'Love them as I have loved you'.... even when it's the hardest...

Have you been there in that position?

Even though they were 'crucifying' you behind your back.... His command was to still 'love' them... He told me to Love them.. its the Love that echoes from the Cross.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

How many of you have family members that 'crucified' you because of your beliefs.. those same family members who are deep into sexual immoratlity... How many of you have 'wept' in intercession for those family members those same ones that are deep into sexual immoraltity... the same ones who hate you and despise you.. How many of you in your intercession have Felt the Genuine Love God has for those that are lost...How many of you have shed tears for those... who hate you the most and despise you..

There again.. Hear His still small voice and His Gentle reminder from the Word,
My child... love them as I have loved you.....

------------------------------------------------------------------
How many of you have had a wife and a child abandon you because you weren't good enough or didn't have 'enough'.....How many of you after you've brought your wife and child here from a 3rd world country basically laying down your life for them.... giving them a chance at better life, have them leave you after 15 months of marriage... How many of you have had a spouse commit adultrery on you.. How many of you felt abandoned, wept because of it , Got angry at them and wanted to become bitter.. How many of you heard the still small Voice of God tell you to 'love them' even though they did these terrible things. How many of you have wanted to abandon them .. but heard God say.. Did I abandon you? Love and do not abandon even though they have done terrible things.... How many of you have been in these positions...

I've been in everyone of them and if it wasnt for His guideance and direction I'd be one bitter and angry person.. but I'm not..

I ask you this question.. What kind of love was it that moved Stephen to ask God... Lord do not hold this sin against them... those that were stoning him and railing on him and accusing him.. What kind of love was that...... Stephen spoke the Truth..

Pure Love is the Person of Jesus the Christ and what He accomplished on the cross...

Pure Love does not compromise the Truth
Pure love sets prisoners free, heals the sick, casts out devils, heals the brokenhearted, tells you even though your not well off.. Your still Loved and God has not abandoned you, Pure Love brings you to God the Father.

This is my last and final post on this thread... If my words are too hard to understand, then so be it... If I'm railed on and accused of being without love because of my stance, then so be it.. I'm not here to please man.. I know what True Love is and I know what Truth is...

God knoweth my heart and He knows it well.

For I am crucified with Christ.. nevertheless, I live, yet not I but Christ lives in me...

Little Children, let us now love in Word only.. nor with the lips, but in deed and truth...

Brother Mark
May 24th 2008, 11:12 PM
Throughout Jesus life, he lived and loved. A bruised reed he would not crush nor a small flame would he put out. He always had the condition of the hearers in mind when he spoke. Some a harsher word and some a softer word, but never did he crush a bruised reed nor did he put out a quickening flame.

9Marksfan
May 24th 2008, 11:18 PM
Throughout Jesus life, he lived and loved. A bruised reed he would not crush nor a small flame would he put out. He always had the condition of the hearers in mind when he spoke. Some a harsher word and some a softer word, but never did he crush a bruised reed nor did he put out a quickening flame.

Are you suggesting that Travis (ARCHER) is doing that?

ProjectPeter
May 25th 2008, 12:13 AM
Okay... moved this thing to contro. Now listen folks... I expect folks to start showing some of that there love. There's disagreement. That happens. Take two salt tablets and drive on. But let's knock of the fussing. ;)

Revinius
May 25th 2008, 03:40 AM
Being passionate for Truth is a good thing and we should all be challenged to expand our view of God. In the same sense that the truth should be proclaimed, it should also be nurtured in those whose faith is weak.

Our words should not be grounds to anothers faith being smashed.

Thats the love that comes into the equation. Many here are solid for Christ and know him well, some better than others. Its the responsibility of those to not simply grind the flawed observations of the few that are not yet fully grown but to nurture the truth within them. A happy medium must be found between smashing the heresy and loving the person. Alot of the above doesnt apply to you guys though, i think you are in the same book but on different pages.

HisGrace
May 25th 2008, 03:22 PM
Alot of the above doesnt apply to you guys though, i think you are in the same book but on different pages.Great post Revinius. Just because we have a different interpretation of the Bible than someone else that doesn't make us heretical or having a doctrine of the devils. I have been a believer over twenty years and the Lord has brought me through many of trials and tribulations, I refuse to have another brother or sister in the Body of Christ call me a heretic, usually done with a bitter tone and sometimes getting into the flesh. I have been on Christian message boards for five years, many not showing Christ-like love, and enough is enough.

My grave concern is that such remarks will affect someone's salvation and they will bring judgment on themselves. We often don't realize how effective our words are.

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

(Raca means, vain, empty, worthless.)

Matthew 12:36And I tell you this, you must give an account on judgment day for every idle word you speak.

Revinius
May 26th 2008, 04:15 AM
I think there can be wrong interpretation, but unless its a questions that affects salvation (eg denying Jesus to be in his rightful place etc) then i will avoid the word heretic. Its not a word you want to throw around unless someone is really playing dice with the devil. Other than that, be civil in your debate, try and understand the other person and their perspective before you assess it for its worthiness.

ProjectPeter
May 26th 2008, 02:17 PM
And let me make this clear for everyone reading... there are many that have a lot of the WOF teaching in their various lessons and etc. They aren't stone cold WOF though and they don't follow this stuff about Jesus going to hell and being born again etc. That junk is just a product of folks sitting their selves in front of a television every day for a bunch of years and it seems they run out of stuff to say... so open mouth and say something just plain goofy.

Here is the problem though... folks here someone say God will prosper you and folks go into the opposite ditch... THAT'S WORD OF FAITH... OH MY!!! It isn't. Better they would say God may prosper you and that would make it much easier on my end. But nevertheless that don't make them of the WOF doctrine.

Anyway... back to the scheduled discussion.

minnesotaice
May 27th 2008, 01:21 AM
Again, Has anyone read the book by Jim Baker after he was released from prison. As he was sitting in his cell, he literally said that he threw out everything he had ever believed or told to believe about the word and started fresh by studying Jesus' words over and over for days on end.

He had a lot of interesting things to say about money too

Warrior4God
May 28th 2008, 10:31 PM
How much money did Peter have when he said "Silver and gold have I none. But that which I have I give thee. Stand up and walk."?

Jesus preached pretty hard against love of money. How are we to deal with Job? And what happened to Solomon after he had all that money?

Solomon could have turned out the way he had whether he was the king of Israel or a beggar on the street. Job was blessed with twice what he originally had when he proved faithful to God. That included material things. I don't think God is obligated to bless all people with material things or wealth, but I don't think He is always opposed to doing it for some people for His own reasons, either.

Warrior4God
May 28th 2008, 10:40 PM
God doesn't need money to advance his kingdom. Though he can use it. The question should not be how much money do we need, but how many Pauls, or Peters, or Elishas do we need. One might well ask, where can we get the money for such works. But Jesus, he said "The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few". Jesus wasn't ever concerned about raising money for his efforts. But he was concerned about raising laborers.

Yes, people must have a willing heart to serve God and to be involved in spreading the Gospel, but in order to do things like broadcast the Gospel on Christian radio/tv stations (which is the the only way some citizens of the earth will ever hear about Christ) it most certainly takes money. That stuff doesn't happen for free. It takes money to print up the Bibles and tracts that Christians give away to unbelievers. It also takes money for missionaries to travel the various parts of the world. Money, whether you like it or not, is often necessary to some degree in spreading the message of the Kingdom. ;)

Brother Mark
May 28th 2008, 10:46 PM
Solomon could have turned out the way he had whether he was the king of Israel or a beggar on the street. Job was blessed with twice what he originally had when he proved faithful to God. That included material things. I don't think God is obligated to bless all people with material things or wealth, but I don't think He is always opposed to doing it for some people for His own reasons, either.

You are correct. Some he gives great wealth to and some he does not. However, none of us are to love money.

Brother Mark
May 28th 2008, 10:47 PM
Yes, people must have a willing heart to serve God and to be involved in spreading the Gospel, but in order to do things like broadcast the Gospel on Christian radio/tv stations (which is the the only way some citizens of the earth will ever hear about Christ) it most certainly takes money. That stuff doesn't happen for free. It takes money to print up the Bibles and tracts that Christians give away to unbelievers. It also takes money for missionaries to travel the various parts of the world. Money, whether you like it or not, is often necessary to some degree in spreading the message of the Kingdom. ;)

Many of those things take money but not all. God could do more with 2 men like Peter and Paul than he will with all the money in the world. God doesn't really need TV, or radio, or the internet or tracks to further his kingdom. What he needs and desires is men that are totally his. With such men, he would move the world!

HisGrace
May 29th 2008, 12:19 AM
What he needs and desires is men that are totally his. With such men, he would move the world!The harvest is great but the workers are few. I haven't seen too many of those in my town. The work of the Lord would certainly go flat if he depended on witnessing only, with only a handful of souls being saved..



Many of those things take money but not all. God could do more with 2 men like Peter and Paul than he will with all the money in the world. God doesn't really need TV, or radio, or the internet or tracks to further his kingdom.

TV, Radio, internet and tracts are powerful, powerful mediums to spread the Good News, not only in our countries, but around the world. We certainly can't compare these times to when Peter and Paul walked on this earth.

Brother Mark
May 29th 2008, 12:55 AM
The harvest is great but the workers are few. I haven't seen too many of those in my town. The work of the Lord would certainly go flat if he depended on witnessing only, with only a handful of souls being saved..

The whole world was turned upside down with a few people in Acts. Most of them sold most of what they had to help the poor.


TV, Radio, internet and tracts are powerful, powerful mediums to spread the Good News, not only in our countries, but around the world. We certainly can't compare these times to when Peter and Paul walked on this earth.

They are powerful mediums. But not as powerful as God's people can be. In the end times, he won't be making everyone millionaires. Instead, he'll raise up two witnesses to again move the world.

HisGrace
May 29th 2008, 01:16 AM
The whole world was turned upside down with a few people in Acts. Most of them sold most of what they had to help the poor. Most of them? Scripture and verse please.



They are powerful mediums. But not as powerful as God's people can be. In the end times, he won't be making everyone millionaires. Instead, he'll raise up two witnesses to again move the world.
We musn't forget the 144,000, but in the meantime what about to-day's harvest?..:hmm:

Brother Mark
May 29th 2008, 02:41 AM
Most of them? Scripture and verse please.

Acts 2:43-46

43 And everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. 44 And all those who had believed were together, and had all things in common; 45 and they began selling their property and possessions, and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
NASB


We musn't forget the 144,000, but in the meantime what about to-day's harvest?..:hmm:Pray that he does the same thing today he did at the beginning and will do at the end, raise up his men and women that are full of power! Pray for the laborers. Isn't it interesting that Jesus never told us to pray for money for the kingdom but he did say that we should pray for laborers?

Matt 9:37-38
37 Then He said to His disciples, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. 38 "Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest."
NASB

HisGrace
May 29th 2008, 03:24 AM
Acts 2:43-46

43 And everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. 44 And all those who had believed were together, and had all things in common; 45 and they began selling their property and possessions, and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
NASB Good answer.


Pray that he does the same thing today he did at the beginning and will do at the end, raise up his men and women that are full of power! Pray for the laborers. Isn't it interesting that Jesus never told us to pray for money for the kingdom but he did say that we should pray for laborers?

Matt 9:37-38
37 Then He said to His disciples, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. 38 "Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest."
NASB So where do we find these laborers who can do it without any salaries, a roof over their head, supplies or travelling fees?

Brother Mark
May 29th 2008, 03:36 AM
So where do we find these laborers who can do it without any salaries, a roof over their head, supplies or travelling fees?

Here's what God said concerning that.


Matt 6:19-34

19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 "But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; 21 for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 22 "The lamp of the body is the eye; if therefore your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. 23 "But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! 24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. 25 "For this reason I say to you, do not be anxious for your life, as to what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor for your body, as to what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body than clothing? 26 "Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? 27 "And which of you by being anxious can add a single cubit to his life's span? 28 "And why are you anxious about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, 29 yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory did not clothe himself like one of these. 30 "But if God so arrays the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more do so for you, O men of little faith? 31 "Do not be anxious then, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'With what shall we clothe ourselves?' 32 "For all these things the Gentiles eagerly seek; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you. 34 "Therefore do not be anxious for tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
NASB

I could paste many more scriptures. But this is probably the best.

There is nothing wrong with giving to ministry and using money. But money simply isn't what God needs. Will he use it? Absolutely! But he needs laborers. He needs men and women! He needs men and women that are more interested in his kingdom than they are in the things the Gentiles seek, i.e. money, clothing, food, etc. With men and women like that, the world could be turned upside down!

Acts 17:4-7

4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

5 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;

7 Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus.
KJV

I know God makes some rich and some live in caves. He uses money and gives it for some to enjoy. But it's to be balanced with other scriptures. We are told countless times not to seek after riches. Love of money keeps us from bearing fruit. Is money sin? No! I believe that God desires to prosper us. However, some are called to caves and to deserts and to be cut in two. These men, of whom the world is not worthy, they can influence far more people for the Lord than money can.

minnesotaice
May 29th 2008, 10:40 AM
Good answer.

So where do we find these laborers who can do it without any salaries, a roof over their head, supplies or travelling fees?


Correct, that is the whole point of this thread!! That we use money to help others and further the kingdom, not so that we can wear the finest clothes, have more cars than we need, have several houses. I think what most of us are saying is that, yes we need money for the gospel and to live from day to day, but take issue with people of God who use the money totally on their own pleasures and justify it through scripture.

HisGrace
May 29th 2008, 11:57 PM
I know God makes some rich and some live in caves. He uses money and gives it for some to enjoy. But it's to be balanced with other scriptures. We are told countless times not to seek after riches. Love of money keeps us from bearing fruit. Is money sin? No! I believe that God desires to prosper us. However, some are called to caves and to deserts and to be cut in two. These men, of whom the world is not worthy, they can influence far more people for the Lord than money can.I believe that God purposely sets out to bless people, if he knows that they will put Him first and can be trusted with prosperity. We don't have to be poor to be humble.

Look at the tests that Job went through and he ended up with massive wealth.

Abraham
Genesis 24:34 “I am Abraham’s servant,” he explained. 35 “And the Lord has greatly blessed my master; he has become a wealthy man. The Lord has given him flocks of sheep and goats, herds of cattle, a fortune in silver and gold, and many male and female servants and camels and donkeys.


Solomon
1 Chron. 29: 25 AND THE LORD EXALTED SOLOMON in the sight of all Israel, and he gave Solomon greater royal splendor than any king in Israel before him.

1 King 10 is too long to quote re all of King Solomon's wealth. This is a portion -

1 King 10:21 All of King Solomon’s drinking cups were solid gold, as were all the utensils in the Palace of the Forest of Lebanon. They were not made of silver, for silver was considered worthless in Solomon’s day!

22 The king had a fleet of trading ships that sailed with Hiram’s fleet. Once every three years the ships returned, loaded with gold, silver, ivory, apes, and peacocks.

23 So King Solomon became richer and wiser than any other king on earth. 24 People from every nation came to consult him and to hear the wisdom God had given him. 25 Year after year everyone who visited brought him gifts of silver and gold, clothing, weapons, spices, horses, and mules.

26 Solomon built up a huge force of chariots and horses. He had 1,400 chariots and 12,000 horses. He stationed some of them in the chariot cities and some near him in Jerusalem. 27 The king made silver as plentiful in Jerusalem as stone. And valuable cedar timber was as common as the sycamore-fig trees that grow in the foothills of Judah. Solomon’s horses were imported from Egypt and from Cilicia; the king’s traders acquired them from Cilicia at the standard price. 29 At that time chariots from Egypt could be purchased for 600 pieces of silver, and horses for 150 pieces of silver. They were then exported to the kings of the Hittites and the kings of Aram.

Revinius
May 30th 2008, 08:31 AM
But its what they do with that God-given wealth. Do they bear fruit? Are they humble in their wealth and give much of it to those that arent as blessed?

minnesotaice
May 30th 2008, 10:00 AM
I believe that God purposely sets out to bless people, if he knows that they will put Him first and can be trusted with prosperity. We don't have to be poor to be humble.

Look at the tests that Job went through and he ended up with massive wealth.

Abraham
Genesis 24:34 “I am Abraham’s servant,” he explained. 35 “And the Lord has greatly blessed my master; he has become a wealthy man. The Lord has given him flocks of sheep and goats, herds of cattle, a fortune in silver and gold, and many male and female servants and camels and donkeys.


Solomon
1 Chron. 29: 25 AND THE LORD EXALTED SOLOMON in the sight of all Israel, and he gave Solomon greater royal splendor than any king in Israel before him.

1 King 10 is too long to quote re all of King Solomon's wealth. This is a portion -

1 King 10:21 All of King Solomon’s drinking cups were solid gold, as were all the utensils in the Palace of the Forest of Lebanon. They were not made of silver, for silver was considered worthless in Solomon’s day!

22 The king had a fleet of trading ships that sailed with Hiram’s fleet. Once every three years the ships returned, loaded with gold, silver, ivory, apes, and peacocks.

23 So King Solomon became richer and wiser than any other king on earth. 24 People from every nation came to consult him and to hear the wisdom God had given him. 25 Year after year everyone who visited brought him gifts of silver and gold, clothing, weapons, spices, horses, and mules.

26 Solomon built up a huge force of chariots and horses. He had 1,400 chariots and 12,000 horses. He stationed some of them in the chariot cities and some near him in Jerusalem. 27 The king made silver as plentiful in Jerusalem as stone. And valuable cedar timber was as common as the sycamore-fig trees that grow in the foothills of Judah. Solomon’s horses were imported from Egypt and from Cilicia; the king’s traders acquired them from Cilicia at the standard price. 29 At that time chariots from Egypt could be purchased for 600 pieces of silver, and horses for 150 pieces of silver. They were then exported to the kings of the Hittites and the kings of Aram.


If I remember correctly, Solomon also became a worshipper of idols, including wealth and women. God was no longer first in his life.

ProjectPeter
May 30th 2008, 11:14 AM
I believe that God purposely sets out to bless people, if he knows that they will put Him first and can be trusted with prosperity. We don't have to be poor to be humble.

Look at the tests that Job went through and he ended up with massive wealth.

Abraham
Genesis 24:34 “I am Abraham’s servant,” he explained. 35 “And the Lord has greatly blessed my master; he has become a wealthy man. The Lord has given him flocks of sheep and goats, herds of cattle, a fortune in silver and gold, and many male and female servants and camels and donkeys.


Solomon
1 Chron. 29: 25 AND THE LORD EXALTED SOLOMON in the sight of all Israel, and he gave Solomon greater royal splendor than any king in Israel before him.

1 King 10 is too long to quote re all of King Solomon's wealth. This is a portion -

1 King 10:21 All of King Solomon’s drinking cups were solid gold, as were all the utensils in the Palace of the Forest of Lebanon. They were not made of silver, for silver was considered worthless in Solomon’s day!

22 The king had a fleet of trading ships that sailed with Hiram’s fleet. Once every three years the ships returned, loaded with gold, silver, ivory, apes, and peacocks.

23 So King Solomon became richer and wiser than any other king on earth. 24 People from every nation came to consult him and to hear the wisdom God had given him. 25 Year after year everyone who visited brought him gifts of silver and gold, clothing, weapons, spices, horses, and mules.

26 Solomon built up a huge force of chariots and horses. He had 1,400 chariots and 12,000 horses. He stationed some of them in the chariot cities and some near him in Jerusalem. 27 The king made silver as plentiful in Jerusalem as stone. And valuable cedar timber was as common as the sycamore-fig trees that grow in the foothills of Judah. Solomon’s horses were imported from Egypt and from Cilicia; the king’s traders acquired them from Cilicia at the standard price. 29 At that time chariots from Egypt could be purchased for 600 pieces of silver, and horses for 150 pieces of silver. They were then exported to the kings of the Hittites and the kings of Aram.
Sure... He built the temple yes. That same temple God allowed destroyed and Solomon began that destruction as well with his sinfulness. I often wonder why folks don't realize that Scripture says that when Solomon died... God wasn't pleased with him.

ARCHER42
May 30th 2008, 01:52 PM
Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud. Proverbs 16:19

Better is little with the Fear of the Lord than great treasure and trouble therewith. Proverbs 15:16

My fruit is better than GOLD, YEA, than fine GOLD, and My revenue than choice silver.... Proverbs 8:19

He that trusteth in his riches shall; but the righteous shall flourish as a branch. Proverbs 11:28

HisGrace
May 31st 2008, 02:58 AM
Sure... He built the temple yes. That same temple God allowed destroyed and Solomon began that destruction as well with his sinfulness. I often wonder why folks don't realize that Scripture says that when Solomon died... God wasn't pleased with him.The point is that God initially trusted Solomon enough to richly bless him, proving that God does bless people materially. What happened later is another story.

1 Chron. 29: 25 AND THE LORD EXALTED SOLOMON in the sight of all Israel, and he gave Solomon greater royal splendor than any king in Israel before him.

HisGrace
May 31st 2008, 03:19 AM
Many of those things take money but not all. God could do more with 2 men like Peter and Paul than he will with all the money in the world. God doesn't really need TV, or radio, or the internet or tracks to further his kingdom. What he needs and desires is men that are totally his. With such men, he would move the world!I challenge you to find just one ministry that doesn't ask for donations.

I know of one ministry that brags about how they like to go out into the marketplace and into the streets to spread the gospel, instead of preaching in churches, but if you go into their website, they ask for donations. I know of another minister who conducts full seminars on the heresy of televangelists, armed with videos and the whole bit, and you go into his website and you will see "Make a Donation."

Athanasius
May 31st 2008, 04:14 AM
The point is that God initially trusted Solomon enough to richly bless him, proving that God does bless people materially. What happened later is another story.

1 Chron. 29: 25 AND THE LORD EXALTED SOLOMON in the sight of all Israel, and he gave Solomon greater royal splendor than any king in Israel before him.

So because God 'richly bless[ed]' Solomon, that means God is going to richly bless every Christian? Wasn't it Solomon who prayed for wisdom, rather than riches, in the first place?:hmm:

See like Solomon I'd rather have wisdom, rather than money--so slowly, but surely, I'm becoming this 'more wise' thing compared to past selves. Because guess what? I pray for wisdom. And money? No, I'm not rich--but I always seem to have just enough.

Brother Mark
May 31st 2008, 01:12 PM
I believe that God purposely sets out to bless people, if he knows that they will put Him first and can be trusted with prosperity. We don't have to be poor to be humble.

How blessed was John the Baptist? Or what of these men in Hebrews?

Heb 11:36-38
36 and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated 38 (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
NASB

So man of the prosperity folks miss these verses. God allowed John the Baptist to die in prison. Why? Paul was left in chains. Why? The apostle John was destitute on the isle of Patmos. Why?


Look at the tests that Job went through and he ended up with massive wealth.

Of course! Some are made wealthy. Job, Abraham, David, Solomon, etc.
Yet, we still have those scriptures in Hebrews. The prosperity folks rarely preach on suffering and taking up your cross on following Jesus. Does God bless? Indeed, he does but all in balance. That's what's missing from the prosperity movement... balance.

Brother Mark
May 31st 2008, 01:19 PM
I challenge you to find just one ministry that doesn't ask for donations.

The ministry of Jesus. He personally never asked for money. Though he taught the concept of tithing and giving. Paul, gave up his right to take money from some and made tents instead, so as to make sure his ministry was not hindered.

Money can be used in the kingdom. It is the seeking of money and the love of money that is dangerous. So many of God' children say "God if you will give me money, I will give great portions to your work". What they secretly hope for is a life of ease. The giving will be after a minimum standard of living has been met.

God will provide amply for his kingdom and his ministries.

Matt 13:21-22
22 "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
NASB

1 Tim 6:8-9
8 And if we have food and covering, with these we shall be content. 9 But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction.
NASB

These are scriptures that should be preached more often. Now, is it sinful to be rich? NO! We an enjoy the gifts that God gives us. But it's all balance. I sure wish I could hear more prosperity preachers warning against the desire to be rich spoken of In 1 Tim 6:8-9 and the warning of Matt 13.

HisGrace
May 31st 2008, 02:05 PM
So because God 'richly bless[ed]' Solomon, that means God is going to richly bless every Christian? Wasn't it Solomon who prayed for wisdom, rather than riches, in the first place?:hmm:
Because Solomon prayed for wisdom, God knew he wouldn't put money first, at the beginning anyway, and rewarded him with riches as well. Every Christian may not be able to be trusted with such riches.


No, I'm not rich--but I always seem to have just enough. You are being blessed. I am in the same boat. I am trying to make people see that every scripture doesn't say that we have to go around in rags, and that God does bless with riches. It is very Biblical.

You may put God first in your life, but if an extra car ended up in someone's garage, I don't think there would be too many complaints and you would enjoy it.

Brother Mark
May 31st 2008, 08:54 PM
Because Solomon prayed for wisdom, God knew he wouldn't put money first, at the beginning anyway, and rewarded him with riches as well. Every Christian may not be able to be trusted with such riches.

Not just trusted, but called to riches. Some of those at the end of Hebrews 11 had great faith and could be trusted, but it wasn't God's plan for them.


You are being blessed. I am in the same boat. I am trying to make people see that every scripture doesn't say that we have to go around in rags, and that God does bless with riches. It is very Biblical.Depends on the calling. That's the point. Some do, some don't.


You may put God first in your life, but if an extra car ended up in someone's garage, I don't think there would be too many complaints and you would enjoy it.
Certainly we can enjoy God's wealth when he gives it. Nothing wrong with that, but as I mentioned in the post above (in which I answered your question), everything should be taken with balance in mind. Scriptures teaches us to not pursue wealth but if we have it, we are to give it away and enjoy it.

HisGrace
May 31st 2008, 09:28 PM
Scriptures teaches us to not pursue wealth but if we have it, we are to give it away and enjoy it. I have recognized that and have said that I agree with that.

Brother Mark
May 31st 2008, 10:18 PM
I have recognized that and have said that I agree with that.

And what about the faithful that find themselves in caves and destitute? I know I have been hard in this thread at times. But I have seen the prosperity thing taken overboard.

Heb 11:37-38
37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated 38 (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
NASB

We know that God does not bless all with financial wealth. That's what gets me about the prosperity movement. Some say "What kind of witness for God would it be for someone to be poor"! That's why balance in scripture is key. Lazarus was a great witness, as a poor man that was licked by dogs. Many have read his story and repented and came to Christ and been comforted.

Are we called to suffer as the Lord Jesus suffered?

John 15:20
20 "Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
NASB

Several will tell you when I first showed up on the board, I mentioned some of the prosperity verses often in connection with riches. I still have no issue with folks being rich or with money. My thing is that those things aren't for everyone nor are they a sign of great faith, etc. There's nothing wrong with riches. But if we pursue that, then we are in danger. God can and does use money. But he needs people far more than he needs money.

Limskj
Feb 26th 2011, 12:23 AM
I am a full believer in the 'prosperity gospel'. I was a charismatic. My opinion is this:

I believe that we live under the same covenant as Abraham (He lived before the law and righteousness was still credited to him). Abraham was very rich in silver and in gold (Its in the bible). David and Solomon were very rich. So was job. In fact, job received twice as much as before.

"What about the apostles?"

I believe they too carry some money to pay taxes, toll charges, etc. Even the ancient roman empire had such things. After all, Paul said to follow the laws of your country.

The bottom line is this: God is not against prosperity. God is against the obsession with prosperity (That means you have dollar signs eyeballs). Anyway, if you are poor, how can you help the poor?

Vhayes
Feb 26th 2011, 12:28 AM
Anyway, if you are poor, how can you help the poor?

You have obviously never been poor. We all help each other, some with a meal, some with a ride, some with an extra pair of shoes.

Dollars mean nothing at all to Jesus.

And to the best of my knowledge, Jesus was not materially wealthy.

The message throughout the entire bible is, be content with what the Lord gives.

keck553
Feb 26th 2011, 12:28 AM
I am a full believer in the 'prosperity gospel'. I was a charismatic. My opinion is this:

I believe that we live under the same covenant as Abraham (He lived before the law and righteousness was still credited to him). Abraham was very rich in silver and in gold (Its in the bible). David and Solomon were very rich. So was job. In fact, job received twice as much as before.

"What about the apostles?"

I believe they too carry some money to pay taxes, toll charges, etc. Even the ancient roman empire had such things. After all, Paul said to follow the laws of your country.

The bottom line is this: God is not against prosperity. God is against the obsession with prosperity (That means you have dollar signs eyeballs). Anyway, if you are poor, how can you help the poor?

Why don't you ask Jesus? He seemed to do OK without a $10,000,000.00 home, a Rolls Royce and portraits of Himself all over his billion dollar compound.

You know, I was listening to this prosperity dude once - he said his daughter was recognized because of her BMW, his son for his Mercedes, his wife for her Lexus.

Peter was recognized for having been with Jesus.
I'd rather be like Peter.

EarlyCall
Feb 26th 2011, 03:38 AM
First off, I want to say that I've been saved for 2 years and I still have a lot to learn. I'm very glad I found this forum recently. What I like is that I can post some of the questions that have accumulated in my head over the last 2 years and immediately have some input.

My question in this thread can be a touchy one. It's about the so-called "prosperity" gospel. Many people would say Creflo Dollar preaches this style (himself included). I watch him every single morning while getting ready for work and his program has been a blessing.

I have heard some arguments for and against the "prosperity" gospel. To put it briefly:

Against: The gospel is not about us gaining material wealth, it's about us serving the Lord. He gives us what we need to survive and we shouldn't desire more than that. When we seek to gain material belongings, we are looking to satisfy our own wills.

For: The whole King Solomon argument, the fact that Jesus came to give us life more abundantly, etc.

I guess I just want to hear what some thoughts are on either side of this issue.

I guess 2 of the most interesting things I've heard in favor of material prosperity are as follows:

I believe it was Dr. Fred Price that said something like (paraphrasing), "Yes I drive a Bentley. I drive a Bentley! First of all, the Lord has led me to give away about 99 cars to those in need during my lifetime, so I don't believe He's mad that I have a Bentley. Secondly, I was GIVEN the Bentley by a friend who felt led to give me the Bentley."

My church had a visiting pastor who has planted and oversees something like 100 churches in the Philippines and surrounding areas. He also keeps a residence in the United States. He literally works all over the world. He said something like, "In order to travel to these various parts of the world, money is necessary. In fact, it takes quite a lot of money for myself, my team, and my family to go keep these things going and to do the work the Lord has called us to do. So, my heart is not in the money. The money is just one of many tools, but it's a tool that is very necessary. In many cases, without money, certain things can't get done."

Pros/cons of these statements? Other thoughts?

Consider that in all the stories in the Bible, stories of real people, there were those that had great wealth and were men of God, and there were those that were poor and had very little and were great men of God.

How do you explain this in light of the prosperity gospel? What some attempt to do is to take a verse here and there and call it evidence supporting what they say. And yet we clearly see that some of the greatest men of God would not have known the first thing about this so called prosperity gospel.

The truth of the matter is that God will bless some with great wealth and some with great poverty and the rest of us somewhere between the two extremes. And there is plenty evidence to support this throughout God's word.

Firstfruits
Feb 27th 2011, 06:38 PM
First off, I want to say that I've been saved for 2 years and I still have a lot to learn. I'm very glad I found this forum recently. What I like is that I can post some of the questions that have accumulated in my head over the last 2 years and immediately have some input.

My question in this thread can be a touchy one. It's about the so-called "prosperity" gospel. Many people would say Creflo Dollar preaches this style (himself included). I watch him every single morning while getting ready for work and his program has been a blessing.

I have heard some arguments for and against the "prosperity" gospel. To put it briefly:

Against: The gospel is not about us gaining material wealth, it's about us serving the Lord. He gives us what we need to survive and we shouldn't desire more than that. When we seek to gain material belongings, we are looking to satisfy our own wills.

For: The whole King Solomon argument, the fact that Jesus came to give us life more abundantly, etc.

I guess I just want to hear what some thoughts are on either side of this issue.

I guess 2 of the most interesting things I've heard in favor of material prosperity are as follows:

I believe it was Dr. Fred Price that said something like (paraphrasing), "Yes I drive a Bentley. I drive a Bentley! First of all, the Lord has led me to give away about 99 cars to those in need during my lifetime, so I don't believe He's mad that I have a Bentley. Secondly, I was GIVEN the Bentley by a friend who felt led to give me the Bentley."

My church had a visiting pastor who has planted and oversees something like 100 churches in the Philippines and surrounding areas. He also keeps a residence in the United States. He literally works all over the world. He said something like, "In order to travel to these various parts of the world, money is necessary. In fact, it takes quite a lot of money for myself, my team, and my family to go keep these things going and to do the work the Lord has called us to do. So, my heart is not in the money. The money is just one of many tools, but it's a tool that is very necessary. In many cases, without money, certain things can't get done."

Pros/cons of these statements? Other thoughts?

Why would both not apply as The first is according to what Jesus said that we seek first the kingdom of God and then God supplies our need.

The second would also apply if we agree that the promise of abundant life is everlasting life.

The promises are future and we look forward for fulfilment of those promises.

Mt 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

Mt 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firefighter
Feb 28th 2011, 12:54 PM
I am a full believer in the 'prosperity gospel'. I was a charismatic. My opinion is this:

I believe that we live under the same covenant as Abraham (He lived before the law and righteousness was still credited to him). Abraham was very rich in silver and in gold (Its in the bible). David and Solomon were very rich. So was job. In fact, job received twice as much as before.

"What about the apostles?"

I believe they too carry some money to pay taxes, toll charges, etc. Even the ancient roman empire had such things. After all, Paul said to follow the laws of your country.

The bottom line is this: God is not against prosperity. God is against the obsession with prosperity (That means you have dollar signs eyeballs). Anyway, if you are poor, how can you help the poor?

Somebody should have clued Paul in on it then...

"I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked."

notuptome
Feb 28th 2011, 01:01 PM
Somebody should have clued Paul in on it then...

"I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked."
I heard an old southern preacher say one time that God must love poor folks cause He made so many of them. The Lord has promised to meet our needs but we often confuse our needs with our wants. How often do we want what we do not need?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

AndrewBaptistFL
Feb 28th 2011, 01:06 PM
I think we'd all be amazed if we sat down in Spirit and Truth and discerned what it is that we actually need to live and serve Almighty God.

notuptome
Feb 28th 2011, 01:43 PM
I think we'd all be amazed if we sat down in Spirit and Truth and discerned what it is that we actually need to live and serve Almighty God.
Godliness with contentment is great gain.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Firefighter
Feb 28th 2011, 01:56 PM
I am FIRMLY convinced that God is much more concerned with our character than He is with our comfort. :yes:

VerticalReality
Feb 28th 2011, 04:40 PM
Prosperity is guaranteed in the Lord. The problem is that today we have a very subjective view of prosperity that is defined more by culture than the bible.

I think the more appropriate term would be fruitful, and being fruitful is something that can occur with or without material wealth.

keck553
Feb 28th 2011, 05:01 PM
I think we'd all be amazed if we sat down in Spirit and Truth and discerned what it is that we actually need to live and serve Almighty God.

About the same as Jesus needed :)

It comes to my mind that while Jesus was in the wilderness, satan offered Jesus a prosperty gosple. Satan showed Jesus in a flash the entire world and its material wealth and urged Him to skip all that torture, humiliation, rejection and the cross and just take the Kingdom now - even as His Jewish brethren expected the Messiah to do. Jesus' response - Get behind me satan!

We who abide in the Spirit should have the same response to this tempation.

keck553
Feb 28th 2011, 05:06 PM
Because Solomon prayed for wisdom, God knew he wouldn't put money first, at the beginning anyway, and rewarded him with riches as well. Every Christian may not be able to be trusted with such riches.

It the end Solomon concluded all his material gain was VANTIY. All Solomon's wealth bought him was misery. Solomon concluded man really only has one call: Fear God and obey His commandments.

RabbiKnife
Feb 28th 2011, 05:11 PM
The call of the believer is to stewardship, whether God entrusts you with $1.00 or $1 gazillion.

chad
Feb 28th 2011, 09:01 PM
I would agree with this. I think alot of people don't mind giving to ministires, but when they find out thier donations are being used to buy expensive houses, watches, cars, clothes, large salaries etc.. and yet live without much, then people do ask themselves Why should I give. Is the money I give going to expand the kingdom of God or is it going to pay for a preachers lavish lifestyle?

Most people do not have a problem with giving so a minister can meet thier needs, but when your buying Rolex watches, Mercedes Benz Cars...you have to question - Do you really NEED those expensive things? Why not own something more modest, rather than something that represents a 'status-symbol' as defined by the world. Especially when you know that there are poor christians out there without much money.

I have heard that some preachers live on less than 1% of donations given. Why don't some of these preachers, just tell people how much they are paid? Some ministires have a 'closed book' policy on revealing how much ministers are paid. They just won't tell you. What do they have to hide?

I have heard a prospeirty preacher boast about giving US $15,000.00 to support overseas charities. I thought that was quite generous, until I found out that this prosperity preacher was earning more than $15,000.00 a month - as a salary.




Correct, that is the whole point of this thread!! That we use money to help others and further the kingdom, not so that we can wear the finest clothes, have more cars than we need, have several houses. I think what most of us are saying is that, yes we need money for the gospel and to live from day to day, but take issue with people of God who use the money totally on their own pleasures and justify it through scripture.

RabbiKnife
Feb 28th 2011, 09:04 PM
Just for grins....

Ask FireFighter is he can eat a steak while knowing that members in his congregation are hungry...

keck553
Feb 28th 2011, 10:40 PM
The call of the believer is to stewardship, whether God entrusts you with $1.00 or $1 gazillion.

No worries, I cleanse my $1.00 daily in a mikvah :)

Firefighter
Feb 28th 2011, 10:49 PM
Just for grins....

Ask FireFighter is he can eat a steak while knowing that members in his congregation are hungry...

Yes I can! I can enjoy a wonderful, juicy steak, loaded baked potato, and a variety plate of appetizers even though I know for a fact that members of my church had nothing to eat.

Sound terrible? Ask the good Rabbi how I figured that out. ;)

keck553
Feb 28th 2011, 11:26 PM
Yes I can! I can enjoy a wonderful, juicy steak, loaded baked potato, and a variety plate of appetizers even though I know for a fact that members of my church had nothing to eat.

Sound terrible? Ask the good Rabbi how I figured that out. ;)

Ok, I'll bite. .

RabbiKnife
Mar 1st 2011, 03:24 PM
God wanted to bless the FireFighter, and was blessing the FireFighter financially, but the FIreFighter was not accepting the blessing of God and was spending all of his money on the poor. Even to the detriment of his family.

God used someone to teach a lesson. FireFighter was blessed with a challenge. His only challenge was "Take your wife out to a steak dinner with all the extras and enjoy it, thanking God for his bounty, even though members of his congregation will go to bed hungry that night."

God then intervened.

Ask the FireFighter what he learned about stewardship.

Firefighter
Mar 1st 2011, 03:47 PM
One of the things I learned was that God puts blessings in your life for a reason. Sometimes it is so you can be a blessing to others and sometimes he intends them for you. Discernment is key. No matter which one it is, He WILL provide, He's got things covered, and He is God, not me.

RabbiKnife
Mar 1st 2011, 04:16 PM
Thus endeth the lesson on the "prosperity gospel."

-SEEKING-
Mar 1st 2011, 04:17 PM
I know I've learned a few things about this as well from good ol' FireFighter.

Firefighter
Mar 1st 2011, 04:24 PM
I know I've learned a few things about this as well from good ol' FireFighter.

Freely you have received; freely give. ;)


I had a good teacher. :D

keck553
Mar 1st 2011, 05:14 PM
God wanted to bless the FireFighter, and was blessing the FireFighter financially, but the FIreFighter was not accepting the blessing of God and was spending all of his money on the poor. Even to the detriment of his family.

God used someone to teach a lesson. FireFighter was blessed with a challenge. His only challenge was "Take your wife out to a steak dinner with all the extras and enjoy it, thanking God for his bounty, even though members of his congregation will go to bed hungry that night."

God then intervened.

Ask the FireFighter what he learned about stewardship.

I bit, I ate and now I am enjoying the fruit. :) thank you.