PDA

View Full Version : about the devil



ilovemetal
May 13th 2008, 05:25 AM
ok ok. i randomly mentioned about this, but wanted to start a thread as to get more opinions.

(let me know point by point where i'm off)

i've always thought, our thoughts, are either from God or the devil. thus when we get say, lustful thoughts, or hatfeul thoughts, they're from satan.

Now i know the holy spirit lives in us as Christians, and guids us. the devil tempts us. it's a constant battle.

but now i' hearing it's not the devil and there's a defference between the flesh and the devil. are there then demons assigned to us, like cs lewis once wrote about, and do we have angels.

to what extext is the devil influencing us. or if he isn't omnipresent, where is he. sitting waiting in hell?

i'm super curious on this as it's not somethingi ever thought people had a difference in opinion on. so gimme your thoughts.

kev

JordanW
May 13th 2008, 06:18 AM
I think that it has to deal somewhat with our thoughts that we have, but I think the Devil has something to do with it.

daughter
May 13th 2008, 08:30 AM
The devil can't be omnipresent, because he's a created being. He'd love us to think that he's like God, always there listening to our thoughts... but the truth is that he's not. The devil does however have angels that fell with him, and we're fighting invisible enemies... so I think we have demons tempting us in various ways. Imagine the devil as a powerful, but not omnipotent commander.

I know personally of two instances where a demon made such a bad misjudgement of what humans were thinking that what it was trying to achieve was utterly destroyed. For example, my husband didn't believe in the devil, until one of them put a thought in his head that was so out of character my husband instantly knew it wasn't his thought. When my son became Christian my husband, who loved us both, got the thought, "I'm going back to live with my Mam..." Then he thought, hang on... why would I think that? I love Mary and Sťamus! What's going on here?

At that point he knew beyond a doubt that there were demons involved in his thought processes, and once he realised that it wasn't long before he was Christian himself.

So the devil is not just limited in time, space and scope, he and his legions are also stupid. They don't know what we are thinking, and they make terrible mistakes by misjudging us, and over stepping their mark.

ilovemetal
May 13th 2008, 01:59 PM
thanks daughter. yeah, i'd agree with what you said. deffinatly demons.

ok. hope for more thoughts.
kev

VerticalReality
May 13th 2008, 02:13 PM
I do not believe we would have the example of Jesus being tempted of the devil if we could not expect the same thing. I definitely believe that demons or even Satan himself will try to enter our thoughts and tempt us through all sorts of things. This is why Paul instructs us to take every thought into captivity. We have to examine our thoughts and compare them to God's spoken word. If those thoughts do not align then when to get rid of them and replace them with God's truth. That is how we renew our mind.

Steve M
May 13th 2008, 03:03 PM
In regards to temptation, there are a couple Bible verses to keep in mind.

Jas 1:14 - Show Context
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

1Co 10:13 - Show Context
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Eph 2:2 - Show Context
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:


Hm... some food for thought in those verses.

VerticalReality
May 13th 2008, 03:09 PM
In regards to temptation, there are a couple Bible verses to keep in mind.

Jas 1:14 - Show Context
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

1Co 10:13 - Show Context
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Eph 2:2 - Show Context
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:


Hm... some food for thought in those verses.

And another . . .



1 Corinthians 7:5
Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Steve M
May 13th 2008, 03:14 PM
And another . . .

Quote:
1 Corinthians 7:5
Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Yes! Absolutely--I can't believe I left that one off the list after reading 1 Corinthians two weeks ago!

The interrelationship of our lusts, our desires, and the way the 1 Corinthians verse has Satan using what is apparently a part of us against us is a fascination subject. I think it's certainly safe to say that our enemy is a ravening lion, seeking whom he may devour, ... as the Bible says it.

Fortunately, we're also told (and this is one of my top three verses) 'stronger is He who is you than he who is in the world.'

He who is in the world would be, of course, the prince of the air, the ruler of this age... our enemy.

VerticalReality
May 13th 2008, 03:16 PM
You bring up an interesting passage of Scripture, though, Steve.



Ephesians 2:1-3
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.


If this "prince of the power of the air" cannot be in more places than one at a time, how can this "spirit" now work in the sons of disobedience. There are millions upon millions of "sons of disobedience". How can the prince of the power of the air have his spirit in all these people if he cannot be in more places than one?

2 Peter 2:20
May 13th 2008, 03:27 PM
You bring up an interesting passage of Scripture, though, Steve.



If this "prince of the power of the air" cannot be in more places than one at a time, how can this "spirit" now work in the sons of disobedience. There are millions upon millions of "sons of disobedience". How can the prince of the power of the air have his spirit in all these people if he cannot be in more places than one?

Eph. 6
12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

It is in the realm of the mind...through thoughts, ideas, and suggestions!

VerticalReality
May 13th 2008, 03:38 PM
Eph. 6
12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

It is in the realm of the mind...through thoughts, ideas, and suggestions!

Great Scripture, brother! I love that verse, and it really reveals a lot for us to chew on.

Brother Mark
May 13th 2008, 03:42 PM
2 Cor 10:5-6
5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, 6 and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.
NASB

IamBill
May 13th 2008, 03:47 PM
You bring up an interesting passage of Scripture, though, Steve.



If this "prince of the power of the air" cannot be in more places than one at a time, how can this "spirit" now work in the sons of disobedience. There are millions upon millions of "sons of disobedience". How can the prince of the power of the air have his spirit in all these people if he cannot be in more places than one?

He/it can ;)

Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him

it is dangerous to think otherwise.
satan's power is no laughing matter

Buck shot
May 13th 2008, 04:23 PM
i've always thought, our thoughts, are either from God or the devil. thus when we get say, lustful thoughts, or hatfeul thoughts, they're from satan.

Now i know the holy spirit lives in us as Christians, and guids us. the devil tempts us. it's a constant battle.

but now i' hearing it's not the devil and there's a defference between the flesh and the devil. are there then demons assigned to us, like cs lewis once wrote about, and do we have angels.


I agree we battle powers and principalities no doubt! Old Satan is as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour!

You mentioned something else in your OP. We cannot blame all the bad thoughts on satan as much as we would like to. Satan can only temp us once we are a child of God. If we give into these temptations and allow ourselves to be drawn into a sinful lifestyle, satan can just set back and watch. Our flesh is very lustful, prideful, etc...(at least I know mine is) and if I am not careful I can fall right back into an old lifestyle without satan's help. We must search our hearts and not feed these desires that are not of God but are of the flesh.


Matt 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

IamBill
May 13th 2008, 04:32 PM
I agree we battle powers and principalities no doubt! Old Satan is as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour!

You mentioned something else in your OP. We cannot blame all the bad thoughts on satan as much as we would like to. Satan can only temp us once we are a child of God. If we give into these temptations and allow ourselves to be drawn into a sinful lifestyle, satan can just set back and watch. Our flesh is very lustful, prideful, etc...(at least I know mine is) and if I am not careful I can fall right back into an old lifestyle without satan's help. We must search our hearts and not feed these desires that are not of God but are of the flesh.


Matt 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

:thumbsup:
and also to note -> Posts: 777
:)

2 Peter 2:20
May 13th 2008, 05:01 PM
I agree we battle powers and principalities no doubt! Old Satan is as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour!

You mentioned something else in your OP. We cannot blame all the bad thoughts on satan as much as we would like to. Satan can only temp us once we are a child of God. If we give into these temptations and allow ourselves to be drawn into a sinful lifestyle, satan can just set back and watch. Our flesh is very lustful, prideful, etc...(at least I know mine is) and if I am not careful I can fall right back into an old lifestyle without satan's help. We must search our hearts and not feed these desires that are not of God but are of the flesh.


Matt 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Sounds very familar! Great post!!!

2 Peter 2:20
May 13th 2008, 08:25 PM
Great Scripture, brother! I love that verse, and it really reveals a lot for us to chew on.

Yes it does!

I believe that as Satan was tempting Christ in the desert it was through the mind by thoughts and suggestions.

Go back to the garden. Eve was tempted through her mind by the serpent by his suggestions and ideas.

ilovemetal
May 13th 2008, 10:12 PM
awsome. thanks for all the replies everyone. totally what i was looking for.

but what about satan him self then? whats he doing if he's not omnipresent. if his demons/fallen angels are doing his work, what about him. he is, after all as the bible says prince of this world...

daughter
May 14th 2008, 08:50 AM
He may be deceiving whoever he thinks is most likely to do most harm... like a top politician or political leader.

seamus414
May 14th 2008, 02:12 PM
ok ok. i randomly mentioned about this, but wanted to start a thread as to get more opinions.

(let me know point by point where i'm off)

i've always thought, our thoughts, are either from God or the devil. thus when we get say, lustful thoughts, or hatfeul thoughts, they're from satan.

Now i know the holy spirit lives in us as Christians, and guids us. the devil tempts us. it's a constant battle.

but now i' hearing it's not the devil and there's a defference between the flesh and the devil. are there then demons assigned to us, like cs lewis once wrote about, and do we have angels.

to what extext is the devil influencing us. or if he isn't omnipresent, where is he. sitting waiting in hell?

i'm super curious on this as it's not somethingi ever thought people had a difference in opinion on. so gimme your thoughts.

kev
The devil is not omnipresent as only God can be omnipresent. However he is a very powerful spiritual being so he travels rather quickly.

Every human is born with a defective nature bent toward sin. This sin nature is what enables and invites sin in our lives and enables us to have lustful or hateful etc thoughts. Sinning, and the desire to sin, would occur in our lives, devil or no devil. The role of the devil is to work with, develop, and hone this sin nature so that it crowds out the living Holy Spirit within us. To put it in a simple way, the devil serves as the coach and personal trainer for the sin in our hearts. Without the devil, the sin in our hearts may not develop as quickly or even at all, but there is sin there nonetheless that could be developed on our own without the devil's involvement or existence.

The devil does not live in hell. For some reason, it is a real pet peeve of mine when people talk about the devil's realm being hell as a contrast to God's realm being heaven. This is not Scriptural. The devil's realm is here on planet Earth where you and I presumably live. Hell, first of all, is more of a state of being than a physical place. Hell is permanent, complete, and eternal separation from God. Hell is the end result for humans who do not accept God's saving grace as much as it is the Devil's end result for his rejection of God so many millennia ago. Humans and the Devil will be there together forever at the end of the age. The Devil does not "rule" hell but rather will be one of its inhabitants along with the rest of the lost.

Buck shot
May 14th 2008, 03:38 PM
The devil is not omnipresent as only God can be omnipresent. However he is a very powerful spiritual being so he travels rather quickly.
:agree:

The devil does not live in hell. For some reason, it is a real pet peeve of mine when people talk about the devil's realm being hell as a contrast to God's realm being heaven. This is not Scriptural. The devil's realm is here on planet Earth where you and I presumably live.
:agree:

Hell, first of all, is more of a state of being than a physical place.
To quote you above, This is not Scriptural. Jesus taught of hell several time as a physical place. Never as a state of being.

Hell is permanent, complete, and eternal separation from God. Hell is the end result for humans who do not accept God's saving grace as much as it is the Devil's end result for his rejection of God so many millennia ago. Humans and the Devil will be there together forever at the end of the age. The Devil does not "rule" hell but rather will be one of its inhabitants along with the rest of the lost.
:agree: again with you here. I do wonder how you believe the Devil and all those with him will "inhabit" a state of being? :hmm:

seamus414
May 14th 2008, 06:23 PM
:agree:

:agree:

To quote you above, This is not Scriptural. Jesus taught of hell several time as a physical place. Never as a state of being.

:agree: again with you here. I do wonder how you believe the Devil and all those with him will "inhabit" a state of being? :hmm:


I am not sure if Jesus ever described it as a physical place - could you cite to something?

Also, one can inhabit something not physical. One can be "in" depression or "in" a psychosis or "in" the moment. I think it is a mistake to overanalys and draw too many firm conclusions about the spiritual realm about which we have very little data.

Jesus wants us to be "in" him and he "in" us and I do not think that means climbing into his open mouth or vice versa. The Holy Spirit dwells in me but I do not think I could ever find him with an x-ray machine or an MRI or an ultra sound. We do not know how a soul can reside anywhere or inhabit anything. The suggestion that something needs to be be corporeal in order to inhabit I think is an overbroad definition of inhabiting.

WtheWildthingsR
May 14th 2008, 06:50 PM
The devil can't be omnipresent, because he's a created being. He'd love us to think that he's like God, always there listening to our thoughts... but the truth is that he's not. The devil does however have angels that fell with him, and we're fighting invisible enemies... so I think we have demons tempting us in various ways. Imagine the devil as a powerful, but not omnipotent commander.

Good point!

These invisible enemies like to kick at us when our flesh is at its weakest. I sometimes suffer from a common human weakness, anxiety attacks. Once I was on the phone with a friend who told me during a ruff time to get back into the Word, so I did. I put ephesians on my ipod and went to bed.

I began haveing an anxiety attack, bolted up out of bed and a thought popped into my head, [you have to get out of the house now] it was eleven degrees, I stopped at the end of the bed and thought, NOW that is stupid! Then I sat looking out the 2nd story window just to have another thought pop into my head [you could hop out the window and not get hurt and run down there]. At that point I began to pray because I knew that those 2 thoughts where not my flesh weakness of anxiety, but that I was getting my bum kicked by the enemy who saw I was getting into the word [ephesians] on my ipod. Yes the amour of God really does cause the enemy to flee if we resist him.

Just watch out for his last efforts to get you to run first:eek:

[note: My typical anxiety attacks symptoms are high blood presure, heart pounding etc. not run out of the house and jump out the bedroom window.]

Ashley274
May 15th 2008, 04:02 AM
Hi Metal, I can't right off the topic of my head give you scripture (I am on some pain meds and kinda loopy right now) but I believe that Satan can and does tempt us in our minds....He see's where we are weak. I have never seen anywhere in the Bible where it sez HE CANNOT read our minds....I am not saying he is behind all we do wrong we are responsible for some to much...we can say no and resist.

ilovemetal
May 15th 2008, 05:51 AM
The devil is not omnipresent as only God can be omnipresent. However he is a very powerful spiritual being so he travels rather quickly.

so then, in that sence he could in fact temp me, as it were. eventhough his demons do a fine job witout him....



The devil does not live in hell. For some reason, it is a real pet peeve of mine when people talk about the devil's realm being hell as a contrast to God's realm being heaven. This is not Scriptural. The devil's realm is here on planet Earth where you and I presumably live. Hell, first of all, is more of a state of being than a physical place.

i would even say a state of mind...i mean, the grief and anguish you will feel when you realize you made the wrong choice (as per my testimony) is so everwhealming, i think that will be like hell. but as well, a physical part.


The Devil does not "rule" hell but rather will be one of its inhabitants along with the rest of the lost.

so like this, or another post said, the devil does not reside currently in hell. i think i agree with that the most. so then, him and his fallen angels fly around the spiritual battlefield during our 'lives' and put the thoughts in our head. not all thoughts. but thoughts at the right times....

man i can't wait for Jesus to come back..

ilovemetal
May 15th 2008, 05:56 AM
Hi Metal, I can't right off the topic of my head give you scripture (I am on some pain meds and kinda loopy right now) but I believe that Satan can and does tempt us in our minds....He see's where we are weak. I have never seen anywhere in the Bible where it sez HE CANNOT read our minds....I am not saying he is behind all we do wrong we are responsible for some to much...we can say no and resist.

i wouldn't say he can read our thoughts, but rather can read or weakness...the difference being something like signals...or faramones of a certain flavor, lust thgouths come in and maybe it goes red, and the the demons know and feed us what we need to fail...something to that effect. like daughter said, her husband knew his thought was not his own, so again, they can feed us thoughts, (like my original one about porn and how the thought came into my head, if your going to m****bate, you might as well look at porn as you going to be lusting anyways.)

but one of our pastors did a four part series on Jesus being temped in the desert for 40 days and nights. one of the most insightful sermons i've heard...

seamus414
May 15th 2008, 03:45 PM
[quote=ilovemetal;1639747]so then, in that sence he could in fact temp me, as it were. eventhough his demons do a fine job witout him....

WHEN WE ARE TEMPTED FROM WITHOUT, THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE TIME WE DO NOT KNOW IF IT IS FROM SATAN HIMSELF OR A DEMON. IT COULD BE EITHER OR BOTH.

so like this, or another post said, the devil does not reside currently in hell. i think i agree with that the most. so then, him and his fallen angels fly around the spiritual battlefield during our 'lives' and put the thoughts in our head. not all thoughts. but thoughts at the right times....

SATAN AND HIS DEMONS ARE ADVESARIES TO GOD. THEY TEMPT US AWAY FROM GOD WHEN THEY, IN THEIR ESTIMATION, THEY HAVE AN OPENING TO DO SO. THEY ARE NOT THE SOURCE OF OUR SIN THEY MERELY WORK WITH IT AND TRY TO GET THE "MOST" OUT OF IT.

Buck shot
May 15th 2008, 08:56 PM
I am not sure if Jesus ever described it as a physical place - could you cite to something?
.

Mt 5:21 ∂ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Maybe you think the fire here is just imagined.

Mt 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

Hmmm, has literal gates.

Mt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mr 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

I know you knew I was going to put those in. If hell is not a literal place what differance would it make if you did not have eyes, feet, or hands? Remember when you dismiss this as not being literal that it is Jesus speaking.

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

I wonder if the one that has this power likes folks changing the meaning of what He says :rolleyes:

Luke 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.
3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.
4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.
5 So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?
6 And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty. {measures: the word Batus in the original containeth nine gallons three quarts}
7 Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore. {measures: the word here interpreted a measure in the original containeth about fourteen bushels and two quarts}
8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations. {mammon: or, riches}
10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? {mammon: or, riches}
12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
19 ∂ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

That rich guy really wishes the thirst is not real. He is still thirsty today. :cry:

Jerome1
May 15th 2008, 10:28 PM
So the devil is not just limited in time, space and scope, he and his legions are also stupid. They don't know what we are thinking, and they make terrible mistakes by misjudging us, and over stepping their mark.


I wouldn't say the devil or his legions are stupid, he is the deceiver of the nations, and he shouldn't be underestimated.

I like the analogy Peter uses in 1Peter5:8.

1Peter5:8 Discipline yourselves, keep alert. Like a roaring lion your adversary the devil prowls around, looking for someone to devour.

I remember watching my dog looking for me to drop scraps from the table before, and thought what a great analogy the Syrophoenician Woman used in Mark7:28.

It made me think about the analogy Peter used more. A lion hunts from observing weaknesses and going after the animal it deems to be the weakest or easiest to catch. It also tries and to seperate it from the rest of the herd. The lion pack tries to confuse the herd and seperate the one it wants to catch.

Lions attack other animals for food, but Satan and his demons may attack those who are most harmful to his kingdom through various means.

daughter
May 16th 2008, 09:09 AM
When I say stupid I should clarify. His thinking is futile, because he opposes God, and therefore for all his cleverness his plans will come to nothing. Obviously he's far more intelligent than we are... but sometimes the devil will betray himself, and overplay his hand in such a way that even a child can see through him. That's because of pride, and that is foolish.

Rather than call him stupid I should call him foolish and futile in his thoughts... though obviously very "intelligent."

seamus414
May 16th 2008, 12:31 PM
Mt 5:21 ∂ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Maybe you think the fire here is just imagined.

There is nothing in the passage to suggest that the fire is literal fire. Indeed, assuming that hell is an actual place (as opposed to a state of being), as our souls are not corporeal so there is no reason to think the place it will go to as corporeal either.

Mt 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

Hmmm, has literal gates.

Why would you think that this is literal? Using your logic, then, this passage establishes Peter as an actual rock and Jesus corporeally, actually and physically went out into a field and secured materials and tools and actually built a corporeal and physical church which you can see. I take it you do not think that any more than I do. Jesus also said that *he* was a gate, a vine, bread, etc. I presume you do not think Jesus is a literal gate either. There is nothing in this passage to suggest literal gates.

Mt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Mr 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

I know you knew I was going to put those in. If hell is not a literal place what differance would it make if you did not have eyes, feet, or hands? Remember when you dismiss this as not being literal that it is Jesus speaking.

Again, what in this passage suggests that you will have corporeal hands and feet and eyes in a physically corporeal hell? By your logic, then, we should literally cut off our hands and feet if we sin with them or gouge our out eyes if we sin with them. Assuming you are similarly sinful as I am, you have sinned with your hands, feet, and eyes many times over in your life. Do you still have your hands? Do you still have your feet? Do you still have your eyes? Is there a single, credible, Christian denomination suggesting you should cut these off? Is there a single, credible, Christian denomination with dozens of footless or handless or blind people? The answers to these questions are obvious, you have these body parts and no denomination exists. The reason is that it is clear that Jesus was speaking here metaphorically not literally. Therefore, there is no reason assume hell is a phyisical/corporeal place based upon this passage.

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

I wonder if the one that has this power likes folks changing the meaning of what He says :rolleyes:

I am not changing anything, I am merely not drawing definitive conclusions where the Scriptures do not. Do not read into Scripture what you think is there allow Scripture to determine what you think instead.

Luke 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. 2 And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward. 3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed. 4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses. 5 So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord? 6 And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty. {measures: the word Batus in the original containeth nine gallons three quarts}
7 Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore. {measures: the word here interpreted a measure in the original containeth about fourteen bushels and two quarts} 8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations. {mammon: or, riches} 10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much. 11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? {mammon: or, riches} 12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own? 13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery. 19 ∂ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

That rich guy really wishes the thirst is not real. He is still thirsty today.

First of all, this passage is a *parable* not actual relaying of events and should be read as such. Secondly, by your logic, then, when the saved die they actually go into Abraham's bosom. I always assumed Abraham was a normal sized man with a normal sized chest but evidently he was a giant of incredible proportions so that millions of the saved can actually fit within his chest. I am going to assume you do not believe that, however your logic demands this. I also doubt that a drink of corporeal "water" can satisfy the burning one experiences in hell however this passage suggests that it can. I do not imagine you think this and neither do it because the burning of hell is not corporeal but spiritual.

None of the above demonstrate that hell is a physical place. I do not doubt that hell is real. I do not doubt that it will be a horrible experience to those in hell. I do not doubt that hell will be *like* flames on our soul. However I do not definitively believe that it is corporeal.

My point is that we cannot create definitive statements about what teh afterlife is like. The Scripture is very sparce when it comes to the specifics. It is a mistake to say for certain that hell is a physical/corporeal place and, indeed, logic suggests otherwise. Logic would deterimine that as the soul is not a physical/corporeal thing, the place that it goes is not either. In saying that, I am not going to say that this should be solidified into dogmatic teaching. We should be careful about being too specific where the Bible is not.

:cry:


.....................

daughter
May 16th 2008, 12:55 PM
I always thought that the thirst experienced by the rich man couldn't be literal, since logically he must have known that a single drop of water couldn't do him any good.

Then my husband got sick, and I spent about two years on various wards with people suffering from terminal kidney problems.

The amount of people who were nil by mouth, begging for one drop of water, was terrifying. Even when they were on IV drips, you'd hear people crying, and begging the nurses for "one drop of water", or "let me lick the ice cubes...."

Most were allowed just a little drop, but it didn't help. A few moments later they'd be thirsty again, and still wishing for just one drop of water.

When you're in terrible thirst you don't think logically. If someone has never thirsted till near death, then you can't know how thirsty it is possible to be. I've never been as thirsty as my husband when he was nil by mouth, the thirstiest I've been was after completing a half marathon one time, or after 36 hours of labour... and I was able in those cases to quench my thirst.

But to be thirsty and have it denied does destroy all logic, and I know now that men imagine that just one drop will help... So the rich man begging for just one drop of water does not prove that we're talking about a parable here. It simply proves that he was desperately thirsty, and had gone beyond logic in his thirst. Christ knew that, and didn't pretty the story up. I believe He told it as it is.

Brother Mark
May 16th 2008, 01:07 PM
I too believe it to be literal. However, I love the idea of thirst in scripture. Jesus only uttered the words once "I thirst". But he told the woman at the well "You will never thirst again".

Thank God, Jesus got thirsty for the Living Water so that I will never have to be separated from the Living Water.

daughter
May 16th 2008, 01:14 PM
I was thinking of seperation from the living waters too... Someone on this forum came out with a wonderful expression (I wish I could remember who) that something can be literally symbolical!

What is literal is a shadow of the real? So bad as we think hell is when we take it "literally", the reality is far worse still.

Brother Mark
May 16th 2008, 01:26 PM
There are some things we are just not equipped to handle well. When my dad was sick and finally died, I would have moments of intense pain. But it would subside and things would not even seem real for a time. It surreal in that I felt detached for periods. Then intense pain again. What I learned was that we cannot function very well like that. God, in his mercy, allows us to process things a little bit at a time. The pain levels go up and down and we move on in life. Sometimes, the worst part comes much later. But it is a process. Now, the pain is not so bad and I have difficulty remembering the complete hurt and intensity. We are not made in this present life to suffer intense pain continuously. Thank God he spared us of that through his creation of our marvelous bodies and psyche.

Hell is different. It's INTENSE pain all the time. Add to that, the utter hopelessness of the situation and depression that must be there! I cannot imagine the intense emotional pain those folks must be feeling as their hopelessness and depression continue for eternity. Then there is the physical pain that never lets up. And the constant crying out to God for mercy for one drop of water, just one. That is a cry for both physical relief and for spiritual relief. A cry for mercy that is never granted. And then, wisdom laughs at them and mocks them and tells them what might have been.

Because of how God created us, we can't fully understand the intensity of hell in the here and now. Thank God for that! He warns us about it repeatedly though. But it is not meant to paralize us or to put intense fear into his children. For then we could not continue in life. But we do need to pause occasionally and consider how intense and awful a place it must be. We need to allow our emotions to consider these things and to feel. Then, like Paul in that we know the kindness and severity of the Lord, we then can persuade men.

2 Cor 5:11

11 Therefore knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.
NASB

seamus414
May 16th 2008, 01:27 PM
I too believe it to be literal. However, I love the idea of thirst in scripture. Jesus only uttered the words once "I thirst". But he told the woman at the well "You will never thirst again".

Thank God, Jesus got thirsty for the Living Water so that I will never have to be separated from the Living Water.


If the story is literal then you have to conceed that the saved and condemned dead (I will make the logical assumption that those in hell do not have more privlidges than those in heaven) can see what we living on Earth are doing. Further you must conceed that the dead can, in turn, pray for the living and make supplications to God for the benefit for the living and God, in his infinite wisdom, can make the choice to grant or deny the dead's prayer. This is the basis for devotion to the Saints (commonly practiced by Roman Catholics) as the Saints are constantly praying for the benefit of the living. Those who have a devotion to the Saints believe (rightly, according to your reading of this passage) that the dead do, in fact, pray for us. Therefore, those who have a devotion ask the saved dead (the Saints) to pray for us specifically. As you take this story literally are you prepared to accept this logical conclusion from your interpretation of it?

Brother Mark
May 16th 2008, 01:31 PM
If the story is literal then you have to conceed that the saved and condemned dead (I will make the logical assumption that those in hell do not have more privlidges than those in heaven) can see what we living on Earth are doing. Further you must conceed that the dead can, in turn, pray for the living and make supplications to God for the benefit for the living and God, in his infinite wisdom, can make the choice to grant or deny the dead's prayer. This is the basis for devotion to the Saints (commonly practiced by Roman Catholics) as the Saints are constantly praying for the benefit of the living. Those who have a devotion to the Saints believe (rightly, according to your reading of this passage) that the dead do, in fact, pray for us. Therefore, those who have a devotion ask the saved dead (the Saints) to pray for us specifically. As you take this story literally are you prepared to accept this logical conclusion from your interpretation of it?

I have no doubt that many in hell are praying for their families and are getting the same exact response the rich man got. But no where in that scripture did those in paradise hear the prayers of the one on earth. Nor do we see that Abraham was empowered in the least to help the rich man or his family and that God actually prevented it with a gulf fixed between the two. knowing that the rich man interceded for his family in hell should be a warning to us all! In hell, all become converts but it is too late. Anyway, there's no praying to saints here by the living. And the saints never went to God with the rich man's prayers.


Finally, we know that paradise has now been moved from the location it was in when Christ told us this story.

daughter
May 16th 2008, 01:58 PM
If the story is literal then you have to conceed that the saved and condemned dead (I will make the logical assumption that those in hell do not have more privlidges than those in heaven) can see what we living on Earth are doing.
Yes, the scripture does seem to support the idea that the saints and the damned can see what is going on here. Though, perhaps the rich man is merely worrying about his brothers, because he knows what they are like.

However, we do know that the saints can see us, because Paul talks of a "great cloud of witnesses," and the saints under the altar know what is going on in the world when they pray to God to avenge them. These passages however simply show us that they are in heaven and that they can see us... not that we should be praying to them.


Further you must conceed that the dead can, in turn, pray for the living and make supplications to God for the benefit for the living and God, in his infinite wisdom, can make the choice to grant or deny the dead's prayer. This is the basis for devotion to the Saints (commonly practiced by Roman Catholics) as the Saints are constantly praying for the benefit of the living. Those who have a devotion to the Saints believe (rightly, according to your reading of this passage) that the dead do, in fact, pray for us.
Well, the passage certainly shows that the damned can pray for us, and make supplications for the living. But the passage doesn't show us that such prayers are affective. Also, the passage doesn't tell us anything about the prayers of the saints... we'd look for information on that elsewhere. It seems from scripture that the greatest prayer on anyone's lips when they get to heaven is one of praise.


Therefore, those who have a devotion ask the saved dead (the Saints) to pray for us specifically. As you take this story literally are you prepared to accept this logical conclusion from your interpretation of it?

As you can see I've reached a different conclusion... the passage proves only that the damned can pray for the living, and that such prayers are useless, and too late. This doesn't seem a good foundation for praying to saints.

seamus414
May 16th 2008, 03:43 PM
Yes, the scripture does seem to support the idea that the saints and the damned can see what is going on here. Though, perhaps the rich man is merely worrying about his brothers, because he knows what they are like.

However, we do know that the saints can see us, because Paul talks of a "great cloud of witnesses," and the saints under the altar know what is going on in the world when they pray to God to avenge them. These passages however simply show us that they are in heaven and that they can see us... not that we should be praying to them.


Well, the passage certainly shows that the damned can pray for us, and make supplications for the living. But the passage doesn't show us that such prayers are affective. Also, the passage doesn't tell us anything about the prayers of the saints... we'd look for information on that elsewhere. It seems from scripture that the greatest prayer on anyone's lips when they get to heaven is one of praise.



As you can see I've reached a different conclusion... the passage proves only that the damned can pray for the living, and that such prayers are useless, and too late. This doesn't seem a good foundation for praying to saints.



I think the fact that the saints pray for us and their efficacy is noted in the book of Revelation, notably in 5:8 and 8:3-4. The events in these passages occur in heaven and I doubt the saints would pray if their prayers would have no effect.

Buck shot
May 16th 2008, 03:51 PM
..............None of the above demonstrate that hell is a physical place. I do not doubt that hell is real. I do not doubt that it will be a horrible experience to those in hell. I do not doubt that hell will be *like* flames on our soul. However I do not definitively believe that it is corporeal.

My point is that we cannot create definitive statements about what teh afterlife is like. The Scripture is very sparce when it comes to the specifics. It is a mistake to say for certain that hell is a physical/corporeal place and, indeed, logic suggests otherwise. Logic would deterimine that as the soul is not a physical/corporeal thing, the place that it goes is not either. In saying that, I am not going to say that this should be solidified into dogmatic teaching. We should be careful about being too specific where the Bible is not.
.......


You asked me to show some scripture where Jesus taught of a literal hell and I showed several that you refused to recognize for your various reasons. Can you show me some scripture where Jesus taught of hell not being literal?

I do not agree that the scripture is sparce on it's definition of hell. I think you chose to see them as you wish. I am pretty sure you think the lake of fire we are warned of in Revelation is also not literal. How about how Isaiah wrote of Lucifer being looked at and people wondering "this is the one that caused the problems". They will see satan there, literally.


Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

How about what Ezekiel wrote in Ch 31
15Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.
16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

:hmm: A pit sounds literal, what about a direction (cast down).

I am going to stop here because you probably would not interpret scripture literally is someone rose from the dead and told you, "this is what I mean".

I do not have a problem taking scripture for literally what it says. I figure when I stand before God if I am wrong I can say "I trusted what you said". I do not want to stand before God and say "I know you said... but, it seemed to make more sense like ...." ;)

seamus414
May 16th 2008, 04:56 PM
You asked me to show some scripture where Jesus taught of a literal hell and I showed several that you refused to recognize for your various reasons. Can you show me some scripture where Jesus taught of hell not being literal?

First, allow me to caution you in your use of terms. I never said that hell was not "literal" in that it does not exist. I mearly made mention that hell is probably not a physical/corporeal place. There is a difference. When Jesus made reference to "hell" he used the term "ghenna" which was a trash dump outside of the city of Jerusalem where trash was burned up like an ancient incinerator. Therefore, in a modern context, Jesus could say that the souls of the condemned would be destined to reside at the local landfill or at the local recycling plant. Jesus used the word "ghenna" to describe what hell is "like" not what hell actually is. Therefore, by definition, Jesus was speaking metaphorically, otherwise, you are constrained to read Jesus' words to mean that hell was an actual extant firey trash dump next to Jerusalem. As that does not exist anymore, has hell gone out of existence as well? No it has not. Hell is a real literal place but the Scriptures only provide analogies of what it is like not descriptions of the actual place.

I do not agree that the scripture is sparce on it's definition of hell. I think you chose to see them as you wish.

None of the Scriptural descriptions of hell require it to be a physical/corporeal place.

I am pretty sure you think the lake of fire we are warned of in Revelation is also not literal.

Again, what do you mean by "literal"? The entire book of Revelation was symbolical of something as John struggled for words to describe what he saw. Unless you think there will be actual locusts the size of horses and a dragon with mutliple heads, as well as all of the other rather fantastic descriptions of things, then you have to conceed that this is merely a way to say what he say was like as opposed to what it actually will be. Does the "lake of fire" exist? Yes it does, but the context of the book there is no reason to think that it will be a physical/corporeal place.

How about how Isaiah wrote of Lucifer being looked at and people wondering "this is the one that caused the problems". They will see satan there, literally. Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Let's look at this passage. First, this passage does not say "Lucifer" it says "Morning Star". Second, Church Tradition only has applied this passage to Satan (which I, of course, agree with). That being said, there is nothing in the passage that requires it to be applied to Satan. A reading of the passage literally shows it to be a prophesy against Babylon only. Isaiah wrote this against Babylon and, last time I checked, Babylon was never cast into an actual corporeal pit. The Church has since applied this passage to Satan etc and, as such, it is an allegory describing what it will be like for Satan.

How about what Ezekiel wrote in Ch 31
15Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.
16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

:hmm: A pit sounds literal, what about a direction (cast down).

First of all, this deals with the killing of a Pharaoh. What pit was Pharaoh cast into? Do you also think that trees actually fainted? When did Lebanon mourn? When were the waters stay? Of course, these are obvious rhetorical questions. The point is that this passage is allegorical.

I am going to stop here because you probably would not interpret scripture literally is someone rose from the dead and told you, "this is what I mean".

Why would you assume this?

I do not have a problem taking scripture for literally what it says. I figure when I stand before God if I am wrong I can say "I trusted what you said". I do not want to stand before God and say "I know you said... but, it seemed to make more sense like ...." ;)

You should follow your conscience certainly and God judges the intentions of your heart so I will not ever say that you will be condemned if you are incorrect in your reading of Scripture.

However, let me be clear, that I do not say "I know what you said...but..." I say, "I know what you said" only. I would say that you are adding a "literal" element to these passages and trusting in something that Scripture does not require of you (i.e.: unnecessarily adding a "literal" element). In other words, these passages do not, on their face, require a literal reading. I would say that you are adding literalism when a plain reading of the Scriptures does not require it.

I also reiterate that I think we should use the term "literal" with caution as it has greater implications than whether the descriptions of the afterlife are "literal".






,...................................

daughter
May 16th 2008, 05:36 PM
I think the fact that the saints pray for us and their efficacy is noted in the book of Revelation, notably in 5:8 and 8:3-4. The events in these passages occur in heaven and I doubt the saints would pray if their prayers would have no effect.
I think that you are assuming that the prayers of the saints in Revelation are for us on earth. I don't see that in the text. In fact, if you read chapter 5, verse 9 on, you will what they are singing. It's a song of praise, not supplication.

Also, they are not praying to GET something from God at this point. I don't see saints interceding at the throne of God in heaven for those on earth. And it seems unlikely that a saint would think, "I'll only pray if it's a practical, useful prayer..." The beauty of heaven is that God is there, that He needs nothing from us... but He saved us anyway. We'll have no desire other than to praise Him.

Buck shot
May 16th 2008, 08:46 PM
i've always thought, our thoughts, are either from God or the devil. thus when we get say, lustful thoughts, or hatfeul thoughts, they're from satan.

Now i know the holy spirit lives in us as Christians, and guids us. the devil tempts us. it's a constant battle.

but now i' hearing it's not the devil and there's a defference between the flesh and the devil. are there then demons assigned to us, like cs lewis once wrote about, and do we have angels.

to what extext is the devil influencing us. or if he isn't omnipresent, where is he. sitting waiting in hell?

i'm super curious on this as it's not somethingi ever thought people had a difference in opinion on. so gimme your thoughts.

kev

Sorry, I kindof chased a rabbit. Reposting the OP to hopefully get us back on track.

Seamus, I meant you no disrespect I just disagree with you. We can disagree without being disagreeable ;)

seamus414
May 16th 2008, 09:46 PM
When it comes right down to it, the devil is real and the devil is powerful and he, and his demons, are actively seeking out ways to tempt us to sin and walk away from God. In saying that we should be aware that, despite the devil, we are sinful beings ourselves who can and will sin regardless of the devil. The devil just helps bring the worst out of us.

I think it is important to keep in mind that we are sinful regardless of and despite the devil. Otherwise one could logically conclude that we are sinless but for the devil and if we can resist the devil we will not sin. This, I think, is very dangerous as one of the essential elements to becoming saved is the recognition (and repentance of) that one is inherently sinful and is in need of saving.

daughter
May 17th 2008, 10:00 AM
That is an excellent point. I remember after I became Christian and sat down to read the Bible, when I came to the story of Noah I realised that all the sin in the world that grieved God so greatly, sprung from us. In the garden we could blame Satan perhaps... but in the world after the fall, we are all of us responsible for what we do.

Jerome1
May 17th 2008, 04:30 PM
I was just watching a documentary the other day, and the rapture was mentioned in it. The pre-tribulation rapture, it occured to me that this belief could be very dangerous if it were wrong. If someone believes that they will be raptured before the tribulation might they not be able to identify the antichrist and the works of the devil becoming more prominent?

I always remember the line used the the film the Usual Suspects, "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

The quote i believe was taken from a short story called, "A grand old time," by French poet Baudelaire.

Could Satan manufacture false beliefs in order to usher in the future tribulation like the proverbial Trojan horse?

markedward
May 17th 2008, 07:32 PM
but now i' hearing it's not the devil and there's a defference between the flesh and the devil.We're inherent sinners. Satan and his demons may be influences to us, but that doesn't mean we need them in order to sin.

Jesus pointed out that sin stems from the heart. He didn't say it comes from Satan or demons. Now, He did call people "children" of Satan, but that was in regards to their sins. Satan is the father of sin, since he was sinning from the beginning. What Satan reaps is sin, so by calling people children of Satan, Jesus was saying that they reaped sin just as Satan did, but He wasn't implying that Satan controls us.

Satan is a created being. He is not omnipresent or omniscient. He is a tempter, but he is not the one who makes us sin.

We sin of our own will.

markedward
May 17th 2008, 07:35 PM
Could Satan manufacture false beliefs in order to usher in the future tribulation like the proverbial Trojan horse?According to John, the spirit of the antichrist stems from within the church.


Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.

seamus414
May 19th 2008, 08:50 PM
I was just watching a documentary the other day, and the rapture was mentioned in it. The pre-tribulation rapture, it occured to me that this belief could be very dangerous if it were wrong. If someone believes that they will be raptured before the tribulation might they not be able to identify the antichrist and the works of the devil becoming more prominent?

I always remember the line used the the film the Usual Suspects, "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

The quote i believe was taken from a short story called, "A grand old time," by French poet Baudelaire.

Could Satan manufacture false beliefs in order to usher in the future tribulation like the proverbial Trojan horse?


IMO, I think the rapture is shaky theology in general and, whilst perfectly acceptable to be held by an individual, I think it is a mistake for a church (denomination) to harden it into a doctrinal teaching.

Jerome1
May 20th 2008, 11:32 PM
IMO, I think the rapture is shaky theology in general and, whilst perfectly acceptable to be held by an individual, I think it is a mistake for a church (denomination) to harden it into a doctrinal teaching.

By rapture i assume you mean pre-tribulation rapture?

RogerW
May 21st 2008, 12:35 AM
Maybe you think the fire here is just imagined.


Hmmm, has literal gates.


I know you knew I was going to put those in. If hell is not a literal place what differance would it make if you did not have eyes, feet, or hands? Remember when you dismiss this as not being literal that it is Jesus speaking.

I wonder if the one that has this power likes folks changing the meaning of what He says :rolleyes:


That rich guy really wishes the thirst is not real. He is still thirsty today. :cry:

Greetings Buckshot,

What helped me to explain how literal both hell and the lake of fire are was showing how hell has been translated. Hell is used in reference to Hades/the grave, it is also used in reference to Gehenna/place of eternal torment, and it is also used in reference to Tartaroo/deepest abyss of Hades/grave.

When Christ spoke of being cast into hell fire the meaning is Gehenna, or place of eternal torment; i.e. the lake of fire. When Christ spoke of hell where the rich man was the meaning is Hades, or the grave.

I would have to agree, both hell and the lake of fire are very literal places.

Many Blessings,
RW

Reynolds357
May 21st 2008, 01:02 AM
ok ok. i randomly mentioned about this, but wanted to start a thread as to get more opinions.

(let me know point by point where i'm off)

i've always thought, our thoughts, are either from God or the devil. thus when we get say, lustful thoughts, or hatfeul thoughts, they're from satan.

Now i know the holy spirit lives in us as Christians, and guids us. the devil tempts us. it's a constant battle.

but now i' hearing it's not the devil and there's a defference between the flesh and the devil. are there then demons assigned to us, like cs lewis once wrote about, and do we have angels.

to what extext is the devil influencing us. or if he isn't omnipresent, where is he. sitting waiting in hell?

i'm super curious on this as it's not somethingi ever thought people had a difference in opinion on. so gimme your thoughts.

kev

After the fall, the flesh of man contains its own sin nature. Man is perfectly capable of sinning without the outside influence of Satan. Satan does tempt man and does send his demonic spirits to intensify this temptation. Satan does tempt man, but not all sin is due to this temptation.

ilovemetal
May 21st 2008, 06:30 AM
wow so many awsome replies. thanks again everyone.

seamus414
May 21st 2008, 12:06 PM
By rapture i assume you mean pre-tribulation rapture?

No, rapture in general.