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LatinAngel
May 13th 2008, 12:15 PM
Hello all, new here :)

I would like to know what is your opinion, in regards to all the recent natural disasters, we have been witnesing around the world in recent times.

Also, what do you think of global warming? I know there are a lot of people out there that don't believe in global warming.

Do you think that everything that is currently happening is a sign of the end of times?

I would really appreciate your views.

resbmc
May 13th 2008, 12:35 PM
most would say it is at least a prelude to pains of labor, if not the pains of labor, but there is no evidence of Global Warming, its a big lie, it is Solar warming and even now the reports say are we will be in a colder climate within the next 10 years. Same thing they said 30 years ago when they said we were heading for an ice age.

TexasBeliever
May 13th 2008, 01:19 PM
In a word, yes. ALL of the things taken together that we (this generation) are witnessing, has never happened before at the same time, increasing in frequency and intensity, in ONE generation.

HisLeast
May 13th 2008, 01:38 PM
Call me a curmudgeon, but I don't see an increase in intensity. The largest natural disasters on record (in terms of death toll anyway) are in the past. Our generation hasn't even seen a flu epidemic, yet there was a time two generations ago where EVERYONE in North America knew or was related to someone who died of Spanish flu.

VerticalReality
May 13th 2008, 01:47 PM
Call me a curmudgeon, but I don't see an increase in intensity. The largest natural disasters on record (in terms of death toll anyway) are in the past. Our generation hasn't even seen a flu epidemic, yet there was a time two generations ago where EVERYONE in North America knew or was related to someone who died of Spanish flu.

Now everyone is dying of cancer, AIDS, and so forth. It's amazing how many folks are getting cancer these days and just think it's "part of life".

Reynolds357
May 13th 2008, 01:52 PM
Hello all, new here :)

I would like to know what is your opinion, in regards to all the recent natural disasters, we have been witnesing around the world in recent times.

Also, what do you think of global warming? I know there are a lot of people out there that don't believe in global warming.

Do you think that everything that is currently happening is a sign of the end of times?

I would really appreciate your views.

I definitely think we are in the last of the last days.
Jesus is coming soon.
Global warming? I think that the theory is a myth and Nasa's corrected data on climate records supports that the theory is a myth. However, when God scorches the Earth during the tribulation, It is going to get very hot. The Earth will be scorched, but only when God is ready to pour out that judgment.

LatinAngel
May 13th 2008, 02:14 PM
Thank you so far for your input/views, now another question has arisen. When one refers to ONE generation, to me a generation is: My parents and us their children, so wouldn't my husband, my children and I be another generation? Sorry, not trying to get off topic here, just that I am a bit confused.

I may also add, that I strongly believe that we are living our last days, don't think we have many signs left? Please do correct me if wrong and I am sorry I can not quote any bible verses as I don't know them by heart.

teddyv
May 13th 2008, 07:59 PM
Now everyone is dying of cancer, AIDS, and so forth. It's amazing how many folks are getting cancer these days and just think it's "part of life".

As far as more cancer case I believe this to be a case of people on average living long enough to develop cancer. There are also modern environmental issues at play as well.

AIDS is such a problem in countries in Africa because of the culture. It is common for people to have many partners even though they may have one wife (and many have multiple wives). There is a lot of migration of people through the countries.

VerticalReality
May 13th 2008, 09:10 PM
As far as more cancer case I believe this to be a case of people on average living long enough to develop cancer. There are also modern environmental issues at play as well.

What would make you believe this?

menJesus
May 13th 2008, 09:39 PM
There was a thread on here not long ago, about the length of time of a generation.

It can range from 40 to 100 years, depending on the particular circumstances.

I hope this helps.

quiet dove
May 13th 2008, 10:00 PM
How does this fit into the length of time of a generation?

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

White Spider
May 13th 2008, 10:17 PM
I will not get into this a whole lot, but I will mention there are several threads on this topic. You should check them out if you haven't already.

I'll say this though . . . His glorious return is soon, things will only get worse, and global warming is exaggerated.

I personally believe that although there have been hundreds of more severe events, as many will tell you on this forum and say these are simply tragedies and not signs from God, these are probably God's way of stretching our humanitarian relief efforts and then when we can't handle any more catastrophes He will start bringing the big stuff.

Oh and welcome to the forum :wave:

teddyv
May 13th 2008, 10:25 PM
What would make you believe this?
Well, we are living longer than ever. Things like heart attacks used to kill years ago. Now people regularly survive. I guess what I'm getting at is that our medical advances are starting to eliminate/redure the various diseases and conditions that used to kill off people when they were much younger and that cancers that typically now occur in the elderly never developed to the point of needing treatment. I don't have any hard stats for this, just a supposition.

As for environmental that may have been a poor choice of word. We have identified numerous materials that we commonly used in more recent time that are known to cause cancer that did not exist through much of human history.

danield
May 14th 2008, 03:51 AM
First of all I agree with you supposition Teddyv. As we age we loose the ability to fight cancer cells as we could when we were younger. I also think that things like smoking and other outside influences cause cancer to a greater degree.

As far as global warming, I think it is all part of God’s plan. I think Jesus knew that we would develop fossil fuels and it would hinder the environment eventually. And that this would bring all eyes back to the Middle East. I have said a lot in those two sentences so let me explain.

I am not a green friendly person. I do not believe we should save the caribou in Alaska because an oil rig would disturb them. I just think decisions like these put a huge label on anyone who agrees with environmental findings. I do think that the oil up there is in safe keeping for future generations, but still the logic behind not using that resource was wrong.

So when I say that I think that global warming is real, it is not because I am on board with every environmental movement that we see. To the contrary, I am extremely conservative. What is different with this particular issue is that we can see the changes happening before our very eyes.

But before we start pulling data from every scientific study, let’s look at what we can see. Our roads are full of cars with a swelling population who has a huge appetite for traveling. It is not just the USA but everywhere around the world. China consumption for energy is rivaling the USA’s. Europe, Russia, India, South America, are all becoming (or already)industrialized. So when we see our roads packed just know it is quickly becoming packed all over the world. Also, with the increase in the standard of living worldwide, energy consumption is ramping up. So we have an enormous amount of Co2 gas going into the atmosphere.

Co2 is a natural part of our atmosphere, but an excess amount that is produced year in year out has to have an effect somewhere. I think we can only kid ourselves in believing that we can massively consume something that has a byproduct and not think there are consequences. Also, this planet is not that big, and it has it’s own balancing routine in dealing with natural gasses when the scale tips. And I do think that the equilibrium is tipping towards the earths stress points.

People are very quick to denounce the findings of these scientists because they fear it will cost them some money. I am on the band wagon with many of them in that I do not think it will do any good paying someone in Washington a fee to consume energy. It is stupid to do so. It will not curb our consumption one bit, and it will only hurt families who are barely making it to begin with. It is like ethanol and how it has driven up grain prices. It is a bad idea, but just because those ideas were bad it does not mean that our weather is not in a state of flux.

For those who think that global warming is a religion. This is really wrong to even think this. It is not a religion at all. It is a genuine concern over what we are doing to this earth that my fellow man is living on. If I did not care about how I am affecting my neighbor then I would not love him, and that would go against what Christ taught us. If I put this earth above Christ then that would be a sin, but that can be said about so many things we find in today’s world. However, taking notice of the actual changes occurring and applying them to scripture is being a prudent Christian in my opinion.
For instance, what if we added a foot of water to the entire world? I know it does not sound like much, but if you spread that weight out over a vast amount of area, could it have an impact on the earths crust at the bottom of the sea? Could it push that much more water in the crevices and cause earthquakes that Christ talks about in the latter days? If global warming is real, can it be one of the horsemen talked about in revelation (drought/famine). I think it very well could be, and it is one of the reasons that I think it sets us apart from any other generation that has existed since Christ.

We have several things coming together at the same time that is completely unique that no one has ever seen before in history. We have a huge need for the consumption of crude to maintain the standard of living for billions of people. This consumption gives a by product of Co2 that could be impacting our weather. Most of the world’s oil reserves are located in the Middle East and controlled by Israel’s swore enemy. The richest country that the world has ever seen has a huge appetite for crude and desperately needs those reserves. This same country is Israel’s biggest ally. And throw on top of that the world has developed nuclear weapons. I can easily see how the fulfillment of Revelation could come to pass with the current issues we have in the world today. All it takes is a spark to set the whole thing off, and we could easily see the fulfillment of scripture. Even with those set of events occurring on a national scale, we can see scripture being fulfilled closer to home. We see everyday how love is becoming cold. Also, I see 2 Timothy 3 being fulfilled everyday.

However, I do think we have some time before we see all these things come to pass. And here is my reasoning. Since we are on a global warming thread, I will start with the weather. I think in order for the weather to become a biblical scale problem things have got to become more severe and frequency. And that is where global warming comes into play. As we debate more and more about its effect we continue to pump our Co2 levels up, and nothing will stop us from reducing our output. Even if we reconcile a greenhouse treaty, we still are not going to get countries like China to conform to those regulations. So it is going to increase no matter what everyone agrees to. So whether you are pro or con green, you will see the Co2 levels dramatically increase. And if I am right about it’s effect on the weather, it will fit the bible’s prophecy like a glove.

Secondly, the worlds need for crude is not going to be replaced anytime soon. The Middle East has it. Right now Israel controls that region militarily. In order for the fulfillment of scripture to come to pass someone else has to emerge to contest that balance of power. As long as we support them fully, it is not likely to happen. However if we shift our support to the Arabs, it will fulfill scripture completely. In order to motivate America to do this, we have to have a bit more time before the need for crude will compromise our relationship with Israel. However we can see the signs of our current administration putting pressure on Israel to split Jerusalem. Bottom line, I can see that type of pressure mount.

And finally, the love becoming cold 2 Timothy 3 fulfillments. With things becoming so automated, computerized and society becoming impersonal (money oriented), I can only see getting worse. I do not think we are in the days of Lott, but we are approaching a society very similar. For instance, look at gay marriage. I would guess we are just a few years out on that being incorporated in our normal way of life. Immorality is defiantly on the rise as well as the absence of love for our fellow man.

In close, I just feel that global warming is all part of fulfillment of scripture. I can see a one way path mapping out every detail in Revelation and Matthew 24/25. It is a bitter sweet message being fulfilled because we get to rejoice to see our Lord and Savior return to rule on Earth, but the trials that we all will have to endure will be great. I know that the wedding feast will be worth anything that we have to face, but it still does not stop my grief for those who will not make it and the troubles that are headed their way. I guess the best thing we can do is witness as hard as we can while there is still time. I do hope that I am wrong!

God Bless

VerticalReality
May 14th 2008, 06:46 PM
Well, we are living longer than ever. Things like heart attacks used to kill years ago. Now people regularly survive. I guess what I'm getting at is that our medical advances are starting to eliminate/redure the various diseases and conditions that used to kill off people when they were much younger and that cancers that typically now occur in the elderly never developed to the point of needing treatment. I don't have any hard stats for this, just a supposition.

As for environmental that may have been a poor choice of word. We have identified numerous materials that we commonly used in more recent time that are known to cause cancer that did not exist through much of human history.

Why do you feel like mankind always seems to turn to science for answers?

teddyv
May 14th 2008, 07:45 PM
Why do you feel like mankind always seems to turn to science for answers?

I think I see where you are going with this question and I will have to think about a response to this. When I have some more time perhaps i can address it more fully.

cross crusader
May 16th 2008, 02:36 AM
Well, we are living longer than ever. Things like heart attacks used to kill years ago. Now people regularly survive. I guess what I'm getting at is that our medical advances are starting to eliminate/redure the various diseases and conditions that used to kill off people when they were much younger and that cancers that typically now occur in the elderly never developed to the point of needing treatment. I don't have any hard stats for this, just a supposition.

As for environmental that may have been a poor choice of word. We have identified numerous materials that we commonly used in more recent time that are known to cause cancer that did not exist through much of human history.

i just have a question... people are living longer than EVER? i dont mean to get all technical or anything..... but does Noah, Moses, and Abraham and all them guys count as ever? Or just a rare exception to your theology? People get cancer because of sin, or ignorance. People get sick because of sin, or ignorance. I think what we are seeing is that our medical advances are steering us away from the truth. Look, i have said it a million times, once man finds a cure for AIDS and Cancer we are gonna see church doors close down and The great falling away, if it hasnt already happened.

HisLeast
May 16th 2008, 10:37 PM
i just have a question... people are living longer than EVER? i dont mean to get all technical or anything..... but does Noah, Moses, and Abraham and all them guys count as ever?

Would it help if he had said the average life expectancy is higher than its been in a few thousand years?


People get cancer because of sin, or ignorance. People get sick because of sin, or ignorance.

So good Christians don't get cancer?


Look, i have said it a million times, once man finds a cure for AIDS and Cancer we are gonna see church doors close down and The great falling away, if it hasnt already happened.

Why would church doors close if they found a cure for AIDS and/or Cancer?

White Spider
May 16th 2008, 10:48 PM
I think he was suggesting most people only go to church to pray for their problems to be fixed. Which unfortunately is partially true, lots of outward christians these days. Not so many inward christians. Most people talk the talk, but only a few walk the walk.

cross crusader
May 17th 2008, 02:45 AM
Would it help if he had said the average life expectancy is higher than its been in a few thousand years?



So good Christians don't get cancer?



Why would church doors close if they found a cure for AIDS and/or Cancer?
Question 1...sure why not.... anything to prove his point.
Question 2.... That is why i said or ignorance, here is the thing... i believe that a christian should be able to walk in divine health. If the Bible is true,(the bible is true) then we should never get sick, unless we are being chastised, or we are sinning, or we are just ignorant of who we are in Christ. But this convo is for another thread. so i am done with that point til one opens.
Question 3..... Because most, i will call them crisis christians, wouldnt probably see the need to pray to God. Notice how most people only get religious when there is a crisis or a disease upon them. i just see people trusting in man rather than God if that would happen. Most of the time people only turn to GOd when there is nothing,(that they think) else that will help.
k. i am done replying and will not answer any further questions regarding this post, and i will not debate scripture because the Bible tells me not to.

quiet dove
May 17th 2008, 03:21 AM
Question 2.... That is why i said or ignorance, here is the thing... i believe that a christian should be able to walk in divine health. If the Bible is true,(the bible is true) then we should never get sick, unless we are being chastised, or we are sinning, or we are just ignorant of who we are in Christ. But this convo is for another thread. so i am done with that point til one opens.Paul clearly contradicts that teaching
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.



Question 3..... Because most, i will call them crisis christians, wouldnt probably see the need to pray to God. Notice how most people only get religious when there is a crisis or a disease upon them. i just see people trusting in man rather than God if that would happen. Most of the time people only turn to GOd when there is nothing,(that they think) else that will help.At least these people know who is in charge and where to go when their life is a mess. I would worry less about them than the one who falls apart not knowing what to do and turning from their faith and belief because they suffered disaster or sickness.

The person perfect and sinless enough not to get sick and to be guarenteed not to see any suffering must be might special indeed, at least in their own opinion, wonder what would happen if they actually had to suffer or go through any trials?

VerticalReality
May 17th 2008, 03:33 AM
Paul clearly contradicts that teaching
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Not quite as contradictory as some might think considering that Paul is not talking about sickness here . . . ;)

quiet dove
May 17th 2008, 04:05 AM
Not quite as contradictory as some might think considering that Paul is not talking about sickness here . . . ;)

But he was talking about an infliction that God allowed. Something he would have preferred not to have had as he prayed three times it would be taken from him. God's answer to him is quite clear. "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Many different people have many different weaknesses, many born with more challenging circumstances than most of us could comprehend living with and many of them glorify God more than the rest of us.

VerticalReality
May 17th 2008, 04:27 AM
But he was talking about an infliction that God allowed. Something he would have preferred not to have had as he prayed three times it would be taken from him. God's answer to him is quite clear. "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Many different people have many different weaknesses, many born with more challenging circumstances than most of us could comprehend living with and many of them glorify God more than the rest of us.

Oh, I agree it was definitely an affliction that God would not take away. All I'm saying is that it wasn't sickness.

Ashley274
May 17th 2008, 04:39 AM
Hey Latin, I do not believe in global warming ..well in a way I do because it HAS been warming since the ICE AGE ....now they say ..some it will go cooler

I think we are IN the last days but how close I cannot say..I think within my lifetime is possible... I look forward to it :pp

More signs to come...well we are JUST starting the famine phase...There will be far more war and illness....far more.....and war.....sad as this may sound ...the wars we see today will seem small. Cosmic happenings ...not enough yet.....Its close but not close enough...This is as always my opinions based on my readings in the Bible

ARCHER42
May 17th 2008, 04:51 AM
Paul's 'thorn' in the flesh was not sickness.... It was a 'messenger' of Satan sent to buffet him lest he become proud and arrogant due to the amount of revelations and visions he had. I've heard and seen it taught that Paul some some physical infirmity in his legs or arms or something like that.. when was the last time your broken down knee or bad elbow 'spoke'.... Paul is talking about a 'spiritual' thorn here.. has nothing to do with flesh and blood. And yes 'spiritual' thorns exist today... if any man have ears let him 'hear'.

cross crusader
May 17th 2008, 05:01 AM
The person perfect and sinless enough not to get sick and to be guarenteed not to see any suffering must be might special indeed, at least in their own opinion, wonder what would happen if they actually had to suffer or go through any trials?

They learn that they do not have to be sick, and in any trial God provides a way out, because they are a testing of our faith. In esscence that person is not special, hence God is not a respector of persons. What holds true for one is true for another. But i will forgive that remark by you my brother because my God forgave me of far worse things than that.
let me ask you this is there sickness and disease in Heaven? And if I being a spiritual being seated next to Christ in the heavenly places, a citizen of Heaven, a joint heir with Christ, having authority over this flesh, my tent, that i now live in, why cant i or any other born again believer live in victory on a daily basis and start reaping the benefits here on earth? is it GOds will for sickness in Heaven? Didnt Jesus teach us to pray, thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven? who is going to enforce GOds will on earth? Arent we supposed to be the ones doing that? i mean we have the keys to loose and bind. we have the Holy spirit to guide us into all truth, we have the same resurrection power abiding in us that raised Jesus from the dead. tell me why o why cannot i not exercise my God given authority and power and command my flesh to come into the subjection of the Jesus Christ and what he did on the cross? Why should i not be able to rebuke sickness and disease, why should i not stand firm on the rock, the bible says that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE to him who believes. IF you can give me evidence in scripture word for word that i cannot do these things then i will concede, but i know 100% proof positive that there is nothing that says that. even in the law they were guranteed freedom from sickness and disease as long as they abided in God. We are under a far better covenant.
anyway, Global warming, not really worried about it.

VerticalReality
May 17th 2008, 05:09 AM
They learn that they do not have to be sick, and in any trial God provides a way out, because they are a testing of our faith. In esscence that person is not special, hence God is not a respector of persons. What holds true for one is true for another. But i will forgive that remark by you my brother because my God forgave me of far worse things than that.
let me ask you this is there sickness and disease in Heaven? And if I being a spiritual being seated next to Christ in the heavenly places, a citizen of Heaven, a joint heir with Christ, having authority over this flesh, my tent, that i now live in, why cant i or any other born again believer live in victory on a daily basis and start reaping the benefits here on earth? is it GOds will for sickness in Heaven? Didnt Jesus teach us to pray, thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven? who is going to enforce GOds will on earth? Arent we supposed to be the ones doing that? i mean we have the keys to loose and bind. we have the Holy spirit to guide us into all truth, we have the same resurrection power abiding in us that raised Jesus from the dead. tell me why o why cannot i not exercise my God given authority and power and command my flesh to come into the subjection of the Jesus Christ and what he did on the cross? Why should i not be able to rebuke sickness and disease, why should i not stand firm on the rock, the bible says that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE to him who believes. IF you can give me evidence in scripture word for word that i cannot do these things then i will concede, but i know 100% proof positive that there is nothing that says that. even in the law they were guranteed freedom from sickness and disease as long as they abided in God. We are under a far better covenant.
anyway, Global warming, not really worried about it.

Hey, that's my line . . . ! :lol:

VerticalReality
May 17th 2008, 05:19 AM
Paul's 'thorn' in the flesh was not sickness.... It was a 'messenger' of Satan sent to buffet him lest he become proud and arrogant due to the amount of revelations and visions he had. I've heard and seen it taught that Paul some some physical infirmity in his legs or arms or something like that.. when was the last time your broken down knee or bad elbow 'spoke'.... Paul is talking about a 'spiritual' thorn here.. has nothing to do with flesh and blood. And yes 'spiritual' thorns exist today... if any man have ears let him 'hear'.

That's good, and I agree with most of what you say here. However, I propose to you that it is not Paul who would have exalted himself above measure, but rather the people Paul was taking the power of God to would have exalted him above measure.

For example, you will recall that when Peter told the man at the gate called Beautiful, "Silver and gold have I none, but what I have . . . "

Well, when the beggar went leaping through the temple after being healed the Jews present were about to look at Peter like he was some sort of superhuman god of some sort. However, Peter responded that he was merely a man. With the power that Paul was walking in I'm sure it would have been easy for people to look at him and exalt him above his "man status" into a "god status". However, if Paul's flesh is weak and those people can see by looking at him that he is just a man, well . . . God gets all the glory and Paul is not the one who is exalted.

I believe the "messenger of Satan" was a demon that was sent by Satan to stir up people to persecute Paul. This is why when Paul asked the Lord three times to take away this "thorn" the Lord said, "My grace is sufficient . . . "

Why would God respond this way? Because freedom from persecution has never been covered under God's grace. God has told us from the get go that we are going to suffer persecution. Therefore, Paul was asking for something that was not to be given. We are going to be persecuted, and the fact of the matter is that Paul's persecution glorified God because God got all the credit for the miracles, signs and wonders that flowed through Paul's ministry.

Just some food for thought.

ARCHER42
May 17th 2008, 05:57 AM
And lest 'I' should be exalted above measure 'through' the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan, to buffet me.

Paul is talking about himself as the Scripture declares..
Paul came to visions, was given an abundance of revelations.... God set a 'spiritual ' thorn around him to keep him humble and to buffet him..... Yes a spiritual thorn is a devil or demon... and they 'speak'. I can see the 'danger' in coming to many visions in the Lord and recieving His revelation. One could become prideful very easily . God saw this and He addressed it by placing that thorn there.

As far as the people exalting Paul.. that happened I believe in the Book of Acts 14th Chapter... Paul and Barnabas addressed those people directly about their err in thinking ... these people stated that the 'god's have are come down to us in the likenss of men... Paul and Barnabas's reaction was immediate.

The 'thorn' was a 'spiritual' thorn placed there.. A messenger of Satan, a devil or demon to buffet Paul. Paul could 'hear' it.. otherwise it wouldnt be a messenger. I have these same 'spiritual' thorns in my walk with Him. They are 'very' real and they do exist.

If any man have ears let him 'hear'.

HisLeast
May 17th 2008, 01:59 PM
Question 1...sure why not.... anything to prove his point.

Forgetting the point that its absolutely true.


Question 2.... That is why i said or ignorance, here is the thing... i believe that a christian should be able to walk in divine health. If the Bible is true,(the bible is true) then we should never get sick, unless we are being chastised, or we are sinning, or we are just ignorant of who we are in Christ. But this convo is for another thread. so i am done with that point til one opens.

If any of that were true, nobody would die. Death (especially from old age) is almost categorically linked to health failure. Or does the "divine health" of real Christians only extend to a certain age?



Question 3..... Because most, i will call them crisis christians, wouldnt probably see the need to pray to God. Notice how most people only get religious when there is a crisis or a disease upon them. i just see people trusting in man rather than God if that would happen. Most of the time people only turn to GOd when there is nothing,(that they think) else that will help.

Actually I don't notice that at all. At my churches (an the vast majority of the ones I attended prior to this one), most people were there to worship, commune, and learn about God because He is worthy. Which is why it always bothers me when people slander "most Christians". Its too easy, too arrogant, and too often people don't expect the accuser to back up the accusation.



k. i am done replying and will not answer any further questions regarding this post, and i will not debate scripture because the Bible tells me not to.

How convenient.

VerticalReality
May 17th 2008, 03:24 PM
And lest 'I' should be exalted above measure 'through' the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan, to buffet me.

Paul is talking about himself as the Scripture declares..

Sure, Paul is indeed talking about himself. However, notice that Paul here doesn't say that he is the one doing the exalting. A lot of folks automatically assume that Paul is the one doing the exalting and that he would become conceited without this thorn, but that is simply assuming something that the Scriptures do not say. I believe it is not Paul that would do the exalting, but rather the people he is preaching the gospel to confirmed with miracles, signs and wonders.


God set a 'spiritual ' thorn around him to keep him humble and to buffet him..... Yes a spiritual thorn is a devil or demon... and they 'speak'. I can see the 'danger' in coming to many visions in the Lord and recieving His revelation. One could become prideful very easily . God saw this and He addressed it by placing that thorn there.

Nah, God didn't place the thorn . . . the devil did. God simply allowed it and would not take it away. Additionally, Paul goes on to tell us that this thorn brought about weakness in his flesh, and he would "boast" in those "infirmities". What do you suppose those "infirmities" are? Well, Paul tells us the chapter prior . . .

2 Corinthians 11:22-30
Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I. Are they ministers of Christ?—I speak as a fool—I am more: in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often. From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness— besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches. Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation? If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.

Check out all the things I highlighted that concern Paul's "infirmity". None of these things include sickness or any other sort of illness. All of Paul's "infirmity" concerns persecution. That's what the devil and his demons do. They try to stir up opposition against God's children. Those demons will lie to people and deceive folks into believing things contrary to the Lord. They will stir up anger and hostility in others and this anger will be used to persecute Christians. In Paul's case, his preaching stirred up anger and hostility in others and they beat him, stoned him, imprisoned him, and so on. Those are all persecutions that would bring weakness in the flesh. In that weakness, Paul was still strong in spirit and the Lord still worked through him mightily. Therefore, Paul was not being exalted but rather the Lord. It's clear to me based on surrounding passages of Scripture that Paul's thorn was persecution.


The 'thorn' was a 'spiritual' thorn placed there.. A messenger of Satan, a devil or demon to buffet Paul. Paul could 'hear' it.. otherwise it wouldnt be a messenger. I have these same 'spiritual' thorns in my walk with Him. They are 'very' real and they do exist.

I have a difficult time believing anyone could have the "revelation" of Paul and in such needing a "thorn to buffet" them. But I guess that's just me.

VerticalReality
May 17th 2008, 03:41 PM
If any of that were true, nobody would die. Death (especially from old age) is almost categorically linked to health failure. Or does the "divine health" of real Christians only extend to a certain age?

Do you think God meant that the Israelites would never die when He stated the following . . .

Deuteronomy 7:15
And the LORD will take away from you all sickness, and will afflict you with none of the terrible diseases of Egypt which you have known, but will lay them on all those who hate you.

Why do you think the Lord would take away all the sickness of His people under the Old Covenant but the New Covenant is not good enough to allow for the same thing?

quiet dove
May 17th 2008, 06:30 PM
1642046[/color]]They learn that they do not have to be sick, and in any trial God provides a way out,


Paul's 'thorn' in the flesh was not sickness.... It was a 'messenger' of Satan sent to buffet him lest he become proud and arrogant due to the amount of revelations and visions he had.

Gal 4:14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.

Looks like it was in the flesh to me and no one, Peter, John, someone, thought to rebuke it. And since God had told Paul it was according to His will, that His grace was sufficient, would rebuking this infirmity have been the same as rebuking God's will?

As far as heaven goes, we are not in heaven yet. We have access, spiritually, through Christ. Obedient servants, submissive to His will is what we are to be. Rebuking, loosing, binding, commanding, enforcing--none of those are walking in the Spirit, obedience to His will is the only way to overcome the flesh, in sickness and in health, richer or poorer.

Php 4:12 I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

VerticalReality
May 17th 2008, 07:47 PM
Gal 4:14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. 15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.

Looks like it was in the flesh to me and no one, Peter, John, someone, thought to rebuke it. And since God had told Paul it was according to His will, that His grace was sufficient, would rebuking this infirmity have been the same as rebuking God's will?

Of course it was in his flesh. Anytime you get beaten with rods and stripes you are going to have infirmity in your flesh. If you recall, Paul was stoned in Galatia when he was at Lystra. Also notice that Paul stated that his "infirmity" was just "at the first" and wasn't permanent.

Galatians 4:12-14
Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you. You have not injured me at all. You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Notice he also calls it a trial, which makes it clear that it wasn't something that he was always going to suffer with like some disease or other such assumption. Notice also that he states to the Galatians that it wasn't them that "injured" him. Paul is simply referring to the fact that in his flesh he had experienced many persecutions such as the stoning he had just received in Lystra, and the church at Galatia was compassionate to this fact.


As far as heaven goes, we are not in heaven yet. We have access, spiritually, through Christ. Obedient servants, submissive to His will is what we are to be. Rebuking, loosing, binding, commanding, enforcing--none of those are walking in the Spirit, obedience to His will is the only way to overcome the flesh, in sickness and in health, richer or poorer.

And if you are obedient and abiding in Christ, why in the world should one expect to suffer with sickness and disease? Can you name one single occasion where a person came to Jesus in faith and did not receive healing for their afflictions? Just one?

cross crusader
May 18th 2008, 12:22 AM
Forgetting the point that its absolutely true.



If any of that were true, nobody would die. Death (especially from old age) is almost categorically linked to health failure. Or does the "divine health" of real Christians only extend to a certain age?




Actually I don't notice that at all. At my churches (an the vast majority of the ones I attended prior to this one), most people were there to worship, commune, and learn about God because He is worthy. Which is why it always bothers me when people slander "most Christians". Its too easy, too arrogant, and too often people don't expect the accuser to back up the accusation.




How convenient.
every man is appointed to die once, per the bible. i am saying it is not supposed to be by sickness and disease. secondly, do people in church when they get sick, do they rebuke it or go to the cough medicine and prescription drug counter? why not just rebuke it and be done? why trust in something other than God himself to heal you?

White Spider
May 18th 2008, 02:27 AM
every man is appointed to die once, per the bible. i am saying it is not supposed to be by sickness and disease. secondly, do people in church when they get sick, do they rebuke it or go to the cough medicine and prescription drug counter? why not just rebuke it and be done? why trust in something other than God himself to heal you?

I don't go to the prescriptions. "don't you know your body is a temple of Christ who is in you, I say whatever you do to your body you do unto Christ."

Illness is healed much more quickly without medicine I find. Flu goes around and most people are out for days sometimes a week or more, me, I fast, just water and prayer. Usually gone in less than 12 hours, never puts me out for more than a day.

Don't take anything for headaches, and now I rarely get them.

Stopped wearing my contacts and glasses . . . visions improved.

Medicine can help, but it doesn't fix the problem, only makes it so you can't tell you have it. Medicine is like a halloween mask, doesn't change anything but the appearance. Don't feel your headache but it's still there, stop coughing, but still have your cold, etc.

sunnysideup
May 18th 2008, 02:33 AM
Natural disasters always have been happening but we have only recently developed the technology to study and put all the information together. From what I have studied I don't believe there to be scientific evidence to back global warming being man made, but do see evidence of its occurence. I don't think we can stop/cause it. It is more of a natural cycle the earth goes through. I also find the usage of the global warming phenomenon to be amazingly convenient for certain people's political agendas, but I will leave that for another discussion.

As far as natural disasters and so forth being a sign of the end times I would say you have to be very careful because without a solid ability to measure it against. (For example we have no idea what happened during the middle ages around the world). I would look more toward things that are occurring geopolitically.

HisLeast
May 18th 2008, 12:52 PM
Do you think God meant that the Israelites would never die when He stated the following . . .

Deuteronomy 7:15
And the LORD will take away from you all sickness, and will afflict you with none of the terrible diseases of Egypt which you have known, but will lay them on all those who hate you.

Why do you think the Lord would take away all the sickness of His people under the Old Covenant but the New Covenant is not good enough to allow for the same thing?

Ok, let me answer your question with a question: are good Christians immune to cancer?

HisLeast
May 18th 2008, 01:00 PM
every man is appointed to die once, per the bible. i am saying it is not supposed to be by sickness and disease.

Then what do they die of? Old age in and of itself is not a killer.


secondly, do people in church when they get sick, do they rebuke it or go to the cough medicine and prescription drug counter? why not just rebuke it and be done? why trust in something other than God himself to heal you?

God has blessed these past few generations with advanced medical knowledge. Why wouldn't he want us to use the fruits of those blessings? It doesn't mean I trust the Lord any less. Of course, if you elect to view it that way, I'll ask you the following: why don't you trust God to deliver you manna every morning instead of going out to buy groceries. Or alternatively why aren't YOU going out and raising people from the dead?

cross crusader
May 19th 2008, 01:39 AM
Then what do they die of? Old age in and of itself is not a killer.



God has blessed these past few generations with advanced medical knowledge. Why wouldn't he want us to use the fruits of those blessings? It doesn't mean I trust the Lord any less. Of course, if you elect to view it that way, I'll ask you the following: why don't you trust God to deliver you manna every morning instead of going out to buy groceries. Or alternatively why aren't YOU going out and raising people from the dead?
GOd promise is that we will die when we have lived out our years here on earth, (GEn, or Exodus i think?) or we are martyred.
Is it GOd blessing us with advanced medical knowledge? The only advanced medical knowledge i can think of that God has supplied us with is mark 16. " You will lay hands on the sick and they will recover." The only people getting the glory from that is usually man. When we find a cure for something do we say God showerd us the cure for such and such disease or so we say a medical team at such and such university? Look show me where it says in the Bible that we are supposed to die of sickness and disease. And as far as raising someone from the dead, i can confidently say that i have not had the chance or leading of the Lord to do so. But as far as rebuking cancer and seeing a a supernatural healing, been a part of that at least 3 times, having fevers break at the name of Jesus, countless times, broken ankles healed, dislocated shoulders healed at the name of Jesus, Being able to tell people the thoughts and intentions of their heart, at the drop of a hat. The Bible plainly states that anything is possible to him that believes. None of these things are happening because i have special powers, they happen because i believe in the name of Jesus.

cross crusader
May 19th 2008, 01:41 AM
Ok, let me answer your question with a question: are good Christians immune to cancer?
yes. if they truly understand their authority and their identity in Christ

VerticalReality
May 19th 2008, 02:45 AM
Ok, let me answer your question with a question: are good Christians immune to cancer?

Anything is possible for them that believe.

VerticalReality
May 19th 2008, 02:46 AM
Then what do they die of? Old age in and of itself is not a killer.

What did Moses die of?

You also did not address my question above. Do you think God meant that the Israelites would never die when He stated what He did in Deuteronomy 7:15?

cross crusader
May 19th 2008, 02:49 AM
[quote=VerticalReality;1643681]What did Moses die of?

quote]
I know the answer to that one... pick me pick me. :lol:

VerticalReality
May 19th 2008, 02:53 AM
I know the answer to that one... pick me pick me. :lol:

That picture looks just like you . . . :lol:

Brother Mark
May 19th 2008, 02:55 AM
What's the difference in how Elisha and Elijah went to the other side? Both went out in glory with the chariots and horsemen of Israel. But one died. What did he die of? Oh, and the anointing was so strong, that when a dead man was tossed on his bones, the dead man was raised up alive and lived.

So, what did Elisha die of?

VerticalReality
May 19th 2008, 03:03 AM
What's the difference in how Elisha and Elijah went to the other side? Both went out in glory with the chariots and horsemen of Israel. But one died. What did he die of? Oh, and the anointing was so strong, that when a dead man was tossed on his bones, the dead man was raised up alive and lived.

So, what did Elisha die of?

You think God made Elisha sick?

Brother Mark
May 19th 2008, 03:06 AM
You think God made Elisha sick?

I think that was the way God decided to take Elisha home. He went out in the same glory, full of faith, and great anointing. Yet, he died with an illness. While I believe in great healings, I also think that people can die of an illness because of providence. I have seen men who walk greatly in the gift of healing, lose wives to "providence". It was simply their time to go.

VerticalReality
May 19th 2008, 03:13 AM
I think that was the way God decided to take Elisha home. He went out in the same glory, full of faith, and great anointing. Yet, he died with an illness. While I believe in great healings, I also think that people can die of an illness because of providence. I have seen men who walk greatly in the gift of healing, lose wives to "providence". It was simply their time to go.

What Scriptures make you believe that this was God's way of taking Elisha from this life? I believe many folks make the error of saying that just because someone walks in a great anointing from the Lord to minister in certain areas that this automatically means they will experience the same thing in their own personal walk. I've seen several folks who walked in an anointing from the Lord to heal but would admit that they do not believe it for themselves. In fact, when I was working at a clinic a couple of years back we had a patient that came in one day and prayed for a nurse's headache through the laying on of hands and her headache went away immediately. He admitted, though, that he did not believe the same healing for himself. He was a regular patient at the clinic. Walking in a particular anointing does not guarantee a person to experience the results of that anointing in their own personal walk.

Additionally, what would you say about the declaration God made in Deuteronomy 7:15? We have unclear Scriptures of folks dying from sickness that many people assume is just God's will for them, but we have VERY clear Scriptures that say God wants to take away all sickness. Which ones are we to believe? Additionally, why do you believe God would choose for one of His children to die a slow and painful death from something like cancer? Is that supposed to teach them some final lesson or something, and is God the author of cancer in His children? I really don't get that.

Brother Mark
May 19th 2008, 03:18 AM
What Scriptures make you believe that this was God's way of taking Elisha from this life? I believe many folks make the error of saying that just because someone walks in a great anointing from the Lord to minister in certain areas that this automatically means they will experience the same thing in their own personal walk. I've seen several folks who walked in an anointing from the Lord to heal but would admit that they do not believe it for themselves. In fact, when I was working at a clinic a couple of years back we had a patient that came in one day and prayed for a nurse's headache through the laying on of hands and her headache went away immediately. He admitted, though, that he did not believe the same healing for himself. He was a regular patient at the clinic. Walking in a particular anointing does not guarantee a person to experience the results of that anointing in their own personal walk.

I hear what you are saying. But we see that Elisha worked miracles for himself. Also, I see where Paul had a thorn in his flesh that served a purpose.

Old age, to me, is a disease that was never meant to be placed on mankind. But with the curse, it happened. I have a pastor "friend" that preaches at my church occasionally. He has the gift of healing. He has seen and I have seen through him, great miracles of healing. But he lost two wives to "providence" that died to disease.

Did God allow Uriah to die of natural causes? Or Christ? Did they die sooner than God intended?

VerticalReality
May 19th 2008, 03:26 AM
Old age, to me, is a disease that was never meant to be placed on mankind. But with the curse, it happened. I have a pastor "friend" that preaches at my church occasionally. He has the gift of healing. He has seen and I have seen through him, great miracles of healing. But he lost two wives to "providence" that died to disease.

This is what I don't get, though. What makes you say it was "providence" or by God's hand that these women died? It doesn't matter if someone has an anointing to heal or not, they still aren't going to be able to heal everyone. Jesus couldn't even do that, but it doesn't say that it was because it just wasn't His will to do it.


Did God allow Uriah to die of natural causes? Or Christ? Did they die sooner than God intended?

Uriah was murdered and Jesus was crucified. Persecution is a whole other ball game.

servant of Lord
May 21st 2008, 04:50 AM
Jesus said , there would be signs in the sun , moon , and stars...that mens heart would fail them for the things coming on the earth. I do not think there is such a thing as Global Warming...just a worldly name to try to cover up what is really happening...see this causes many to take the eyes off of the truth. They put their hope in changing things by changing material things in order to help enviroment..but the truth is we need to change our hearts and prepare for the coming of Christ..for He said these things would happen...not need to fret..But lift up thy eyes toward heaven..for redemption draws nigh..Glory to His Name.