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Brother Mark
May 15th 2008, 10:46 PM
I just came from a web site where the guy compared the 7 churches in Rev 2 & 3 with the 7 kingdom parables in Matthew 13 and the 7 churches that Paul wrote to.

Has anyone else done any research into this? What got me interested was some research I was doing into the parable of the mustard seed growing into a tree.

Teke
May 16th 2008, 02:07 AM
I just came from a web site where the guy compared the 7 churches in Rev 2 & 3 with the 7 kingdom parables in Matthew 13 and the 7 churches that Paul wrote to.


Was it done by Don Koenig?:hmm:

Brother Mark
May 16th 2008, 02:17 AM
No. Chuck Missler. He gave just enough information to wet my appetite. I am encouraged by what I am seeing though. Just wondering if anyone else has done any studies.

Teke
May 16th 2008, 02:27 AM
I believe Missler, like Koenig is following LaHaye. LaHaye did such a study as well. Point, they all did such a study. I've seen them.

SIG
May 16th 2008, 03:14 AM
I picked up this teaching in 1985, when given some Missler tapes. I find it fairly convincing.

Back then the tapes were distributed free by Firefighters For Christ. They were part of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. Since then, and pre-Y2K :D, Missler moved to Idaho. Now he charges for his material:(.

I heard him speak and met him here in Hilo a few years back; a good guy. But he is not always correct. I know only One Person Who is...

danield
May 17th 2008, 01:10 AM
I have been researching Revelation 2 and 3 for some time now, but I have not read Chuck Missler work. Thanks for bringing up, but I can not see a correlation between those messages. Perhaps if I read his material I could understand where he is coming from. However, I too see similarities to the letters Paul wrote to his churches. Anyway I think it is a great topic!
God Bless

SIG
May 18th 2008, 10:07 PM
Ho! They're still around!

http://firefighters.org/

TrustGzus
May 18th 2008, 10:27 PM
Hey Mark,

I like this particular study of Missler's. I think Missler's teachings should be handled with gloves on, i.e. much discernment.

However, he has some gems and I think this teaching is one of them. I've listened to it several times. Very thought provoking.

Brother Mark
May 19th 2008, 01:12 AM
Thanks for the sites and thoughts everyone. I would be interested in any of your deeper thoughts on the subject too.

TrustGzus
May 19th 2008, 01:15 AM
I don't have any deeper thoughts on the subject than Missler has. Another good Missler study . . . you might want to check out his Ruth study.

Brother Mark
May 19th 2008, 01:19 AM
Ruth is one of my favorite all time books. It is RICH.

When you say be careful, what do you mean? Be careful of what?

TrustGzus
May 20th 2008, 02:27 AM
I was taught by a pastor when I was a teenager in a leadership class this concept:

The goal of the teacher: to communicate truth, not to impress your audience.

James 3:1 tells us . . .
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers and sisters, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

The Holy Bible : Today's New International Version. 2005 (Jas 3:1). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.I've listened to hundreds of hours of Missler. He's a sensationalist. Missler constantly goes out of his way to stun the audience. He was a huge promoter of Y2K. He teaches the Bible Codes which I think is rubbish. He teaches one nutty idea after another, but also some great things alongside the nutty concepts.

For more about my thoughts on Missler, read this post (http://blaugmenting.blogspot.com/2007/04/why-you-have-to-check-things-out.html) from my blog. I never name Missler, but Missler is who I was talking about.

markedward
May 20th 2008, 05:14 AM
Something I just noticed about the seven letters in the Revelation was that John was writing to angels of the seven churches. Why would he be writing to the angels of the churches, invisible beings, rather than the churches themselves? Then I remembered that the Greek word angelos literally means just "messenger," and isn't always used in the Bible to refer to heavenly beings, but earthly ones too.

Seems to me that "To the angel of the church in _______" should be translated as "To the messenger of the church in _______" instead, referring to human messengers who work at those seven churches, rather than angels who the people wouldn't even be able to see to deliver the letters to.

Anyway, that's what I discovered recently about the seven letters of Revelation.

Teke
May 20th 2008, 12:38 PM
Maybe we should post one of the comparisons for others to see and comment about. Here is one from Michael Scheifler's Bible Light website.


The 7 Churches of Revelation
and
The 7 Kingdom Parables of Matthew 13

The letters to 7 churches in Revelation 2 and 3 are generally recognized to be symbolic of the chronological history of the Christian church from the time of the apostles to the second coming. This study outline proposes that the kingdom parables of Matthew 13 are also chronological in sequence, and are directly related to the 7 churches in Revelation, giving further insight. Note that when a symbol is defined in a parable, that definition applies consistently and universally to the other parables. It is also proposed that Paul's letters to churches likely apply to the 7 churches as well.

1. Ephesus ("desirable"), Rev 2:1-7 — The Apostolic church of the 1st century.
False Apostles teaching error (lies) enter the church Rev. 2:2
- Paul warns the elders of Ephesus in Acts 20:17, 29-30.}
- Liar (errors of the false Apostles) defined:
1 John 2:4 - Lawlessness (lasciviousness).
1 John 2:22 - Antichrist, deny Jesus is Christ (deny He came in the flesh, 1 John 4:1-3).
1 John 4:20 - Persecutes (1 John 3:12).
- Nicolaitanes (Rev 2:6, 9 Smyrna, 14-15 Pergamos) victory over the people, Nike (G3529) Laos (G2992).
Jude 4 - Lawlessness (lasciviousness), denying Jesus Christ.
Jude 11 - way of Cain (persecution), error of Balaam, usurpation/rebellion of Core (Korah - Num 16:1-3).
Jude 16-19 - speak blasphemy, ungodly lusts, lacking the Spirit.

● Parable of the sower — Matt 13:3-23. Mark 4:3-8, 14-20. Luke 8:5-15.
Fowls/birds defined as Satan (Matt.13:4, 19 - Mark 4:4, 15 - Luke 8:5, 12).
● Paul's epistle to the Ephesians.

2. Smyrna ("myrrh" or "sweet smelling"), Rev 2:8-11 — Persecuted by Ancient Pagan Rome. No criticism.
Apostasy, Synagogue of Satan - Say they are Jews but are not, blaspheme (Rev 2:9, 3:9 Philadelphia).

● Parable of the wheat and the tares — Matt 13:24-30, 36-43.
Field defined as the world (v. 38).
Tares are the wicked (v. 38) Seeds are the saved (v. 38).
Reapers are angels (v. 39).
● Paul's epistle to the Philippians (joy through suffering).

3. Pergamos ("elevated by marriage"), Rev 2:12-17 — pergos G4444 tower, gamos G1062 marriage
Satan's seat / Nicolaitanes / Apostasy / church-state union (4th-5th century).

● Parable of the mustard seed — Matt 13:31-32, Mark 4:30-32, Luke 13:19.
Birds defined as Satan (Matt.13:4, 19 - Mark 4:4, 15 - Luke 8:5, 12) See Rev 18:2, 19:17, 21.
● Paul's epistles to the Corinthians (married to the world).

4. Thyatira ("perpetual sacrifice"), Rev 2:18-29 — The church of the middle ages (6th-16th century).
The word Thyatira comes from the Greek "thuo" sacrifice G2380, and "ateires" unweary.
Jezebel - Rev 2:20, 1 Ki 21:1-26 (represents the Inquisition, Ahab = State, Jezebel = Church).
Rev 2:21 (space to repent), Elijah in the wilderness 1260 days (3 1/2 years) Luke 4:25, James 5:17, Rev 11:2-3, 12:6,14 (538-1798 A.D.) Apostate satanic doctrine in the church (Rev 2:24).

● Parable of the leaven — Matt 13:33, Luke 13:21-30.
Leaven is corrupt doctrine (Matt. 16:11-12).
Leaven is hypocrisy (Luke 12:1).
Leaven is malice and wickedness (1 Cor 5:8).
Unleavened bread is sincerity and truth (1 Cor 5:8).
● Paul's epistle to the Galatians (call out of religious externalism) See Gal 5:9.

5. Sardis ("red ones", from the sardius stone), Rev 3:1-6 — The Reformation era. No praise.
A dead church, but a faithful few remain.

● Parable of the treasure of the field — Matt 13:44.
Field defined as the world (v. 38).
● Paul's epistle to the Romans or Hebrews (salvation by faith).

6. Philadelphia ("brotherly love"), Rev 3:7-13 — The early 19th century to 1844. No criticism.
Church of the door opened by the Key of House of David - The Adventist movement proclaiming the 3 angel's messages of Revelation 14.

● Parable of the pearl of great price — Matt 13:45.
Oysters are unclean, the pearl only has value when separated from the unclean oyster (Rev 18:1-5).
● Paul's epistles to the Thessalonians (second coming not imminent).

7. Laodicea ("a people judged"), Rev 3:14-19 — From 1844 to the second coming. No praise.

● Parable of the net — Matt 13:47-50.
● Paul's epistle to the Colossians (told to exchange letters with Laodicea).

● Summary: Parable of the scribe — Matt 13:52.

Any comments on different ones anyone's seen....

DeafPosttrib
May 20th 2008, 12:53 PM
Revelation chapter 2 and 3 doesn't give us the hint of what the year of the seven churches, and which church period, we are right now.

All of seven churches of Aisa of Revelation chapter 2 and 3, were all literal churches during John's time in year around 90's A.D. Christ knew all churches' works, what they already done in John's time. All of them already died 1900 years ago. Although, all seven churches showing us what types we are as individual. All of these seven churches cover whole Church history from John's time to Second Advent.

Many saying that Lacodiecan Church is the final age which we are in right now. How do they can prove it?

Throughout centuries of Church history, many Christians' type of their spiritual apply to Lacodiceans, because, lot of Christians were lukewarm, many were comofrt with worldly things with pleasants. Even, today, lot of Christians are lukewarm. But, this doesn't mean that we are "Now in the seventh Church of the Church Age".

This teaching was come from C.I. Scofield. Many adopted his teaching on Revelation chapter 2 & 3.

I reject it, because of dispensationalism doctrine. It is unbiblical.

Also, Matthew chapter 13 gives the lessons talking about the "Kingdom". There is only one same kingdom of different examples of parables.

Bible doesn't teaching us that we have seven kingdoms. If suppose, there is actual seven kingdoms, then we have seven Gods. HUH? Doesn't make a sense.

We only have one kingdom come from heaven. Because we have ONE King - Jesus Christ, no other else.

I believe Bible gives us the simple and clear meanings, no complex.

Bible warns us, that we must watch out for false teachers, that why many already deceive elects.

I rather follow what the Bible than what men saying according to Colossians 2:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

DeafPosttrib
May 20th 2008, 01:00 PM
1844 - AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! That was come from William Miller, the baptist minister.

He was the false prophet. Because, he annoucned his congregations that Christ will come at midnight in September or October 1844. So, they believed him. They did came to gathering together outside join with William Miller. They were watch up in the sky waiting and waiting for Christ to be appear all night till sunrise. Christ didn't come. They were upset and disappoint with him. His church got into split.

That young teenger girl was with them, later established Seventh Advent Church.

That is sort kind of cult.

Because SDA doesn't believe in literal eternality hell of fire. And, they believe when Christ comes, we will STAY UP in heaven for 1,000 years while earth is desert (quiet) same time.

And several other teachings of SDA is no common sense.

We better be careful what we listening what men saying. Their teachings could be twists and errors. We rather follow the Holy Spirit's guide, and also depend on Bible only.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Brother Mark
May 20th 2008, 01:01 PM
I don't think the authors are suggesting 7 kingdoms at all. It's all one kingdom but each church is responding differently to that kingdom.

For instance, in Matthew 13, the forth parable is about the woman who bakes three meals of bread and adds leaven. Nowhere in scripture is leaven considered a good thing! (At least I can't find it anywhere.) And the forth church in Rev, the church of Thyatira, has a woman that is teaching bad doctrine. Jesus warned of the "leaven of the pharisees". Isn't it interesting that here we have a parallel between the forth kingdom parable and the forth church where both are being leavened by a woman?

Perhaps there is something scripturally to these comparisons. Perhaps not. But I think it is worthy of investigation.

Teke
May 20th 2008, 01:17 PM
1844 - AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! That was come from William Miller, the baptist minister.

He was the false prophet. Because, he annoucned his congregations that Christ will come at midnight in September or October 1844. So, they believed him. They did came to gathering together outside join with William Miller. They were watch up in the sky waiting and waiting for Christ to be appear all night till sunrise. Christ didn't come. They were upset and disappoint with him. His church got into split.

That young teenger girl was with them, later established Seventh Advent Church.

That is sort kind of cult.

Because SDA doesn't believe in literal eternality hell of fire. And, they believe when Christ comes, we will STAY UP in heaven for 1,000 years while earth is desert (quiet) same time.

And several other teachings of SDA is no common sense.

We better be careful what we listening what men saying. Their teachings could be twists and errors. We rather follow the Holy Spirit's guide, and also depend on Bible only.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

This post actually brought a question to mind. Did this all come from the north east coast of the US? I live in the southeast and took a trip to New Jersey recently and noticed many SD Baptist churches there. Having been a Baptist I've never heard of such folks as those there. It really had me scratching my head. You'd never see a Baptist church like those in the south.

But hey, that is why I posted the scriptures for what we're talking about in this thread. It would be confusing if we attach scripture to any one individual (such as the names already mentioned), doctrine (such as dispensationalism), or religion (SDA or Baptist) since it belongs to the whole church.

I don't ascribe to dispensationalism either BTW. And since it's not dogma it shouldn't matter.
Scripture has many interesting facets to explore.

markedward
May 20th 2008, 09:33 PM
Revelation chapter 2 and 3 doesn't give us the hint of what the year of the seven churches, and which church period, we are right now.Show me Scripture that supports this "church period" idea.

TrustGzus
May 24th 2008, 08:10 PM
We're getting off the path a bit. This thread is about a comparison between the seven churches and the seven kingdom parables in Matthew.

The tapes/CDs on this that Mark listened to are very interesting. It's been a while since I've listened to them, however, if I remember correctly, Missler doesn't explore the theory of the seven churches in these messages (although he does at other times).

Let's make another thread if we want to discuss the seven churches and the correspondence to various ages in church history. The opening post topic is a good one. Let's try to keep it there.

Curby Wheeler
Apr 21st 2012, 06:23 PM
Seems to me that "To the angel of the church in _______" should be translated as "To the messenger of the church in _______" instead, referring to human messengers who work at those seven churches, rather than angels who the people wouldn't even be able to see to deliver the letters to.

The seven letters in Revelation are dictated by Jesus Christ. They are properly addressed to HIS messenger in each church. He is the head and all we are members within HIS authority structure. John is the scribe taking the dictation. Appropriately a message from the head of the body is sent via a messenger to be delivered as directed. These letters are now 'open letters' so to speak and part of the living word of God. You may be a messenger within the body of Christ in the fellowship where you minister to others. You or I may very well be the messenger to whom these letters are intended.

jesse
Apr 21st 2012, 07:47 PM
I have read part of book expounding on the idea that the parable of the sower is about the different church ages. It was by A.W.Pink. It did not compare them to the churches in Revelations (or maybe i did not read far enough) although I have heard that idea before from a guy named Micheal Pearl (although he was not fully convinced either).

Although i fully accept Dispensationalism as the most accurate biblical interpretation (no other group seems to read ALL the words in the bible), I am not really convinced of the spiritualizing or the "deeper meanings" of scripture (which all groups seem to do to some degree). Often they are great and interesting like that the stone ten commandments inside the ark were broken. Therefore all Israel (some say "everyone" but that is no doubt a stretch) broke the ten commandments. Which is great and may infact be something Christ himself would say... but i have seen it misused. There are Catholics who can do the same about doctrines i know are wrong. It is slippery ground and we need to be aware of all the literal meanings before even attempting this kind of application. Although i would say that if even dispensationalists can get it wrong then maybe understanding the literal meaning won't help in the process either. (I do like the idea of the Song of Solomon being applied to the church but is it?)

TrustGzus
Apr 22nd 2012, 12:10 AM
Nothing like resurrecting a 4-year-old thread!

Noeb
Apr 22nd 2012, 03:06 AM
I have read part of book expounding on the idea that the parable of the sower is about the different church ages. It was by A.W.Pink. It did not compare them to the churches in Revelations (or maybe i did not read far enough) although I have heard that idea before from a guy named Micheal Pearl (although he was not fully convinced either).What message? I've listened to about everything he has and I've never heard him do that. I know he believes the 7 churches are church era's, but that's common.

jesse
Apr 22nd 2012, 04:43 AM
Here is a link. Like i said i didn't read much of it. I was a new Christian when i read it and it seemed a little out there. In general I like dispensationalism because of its not so "out there" attitude. Meaning they generally pay close attention to what is going on. But this just seemed strange. (although Pink makes a great case for it.)

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Parables/index.htm

Noeb
Apr 22nd 2012, 05:22 AM
I meant where Micheal Pearl talked about it.

Liquid Tension
Apr 22nd 2012, 07:56 AM
Nothing like resurrecting a 4-year-old thread!

IT'S ALIVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

jesse
Apr 22nd 2012, 07:17 PM
I meant where Micheal Pearl talked about it.

Ha ha! Oh! That would be harder to find. But here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0cmN_hPDeo



EDIT* What is the 4 year old thread topic for those of us who were not here 4 years ago?
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0cmN_hPDeo)

Liquid Tension
Apr 22nd 2012, 09:45 PM
EDIT* What is the 4 year old thread topic for those of us who were not here 4 years ago? [/COLOR]


This thread here. Post #20 was the last post back in 2008 before it was resurrected yesterday.

amazzin
Apr 22nd 2012, 09:50 PM
Thread Closed.....