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tgallison
May 16th 2008, 07:29 PM
Most people don't look beyond the second chapter of Job. So the question is, when God declared Job blameless, upright, and none like him, whose righteousness was God looking at? Did Job get saved first, and then became righteous, or was he righteous, and then became saved?

th1bill
May 16th 2008, 10:44 PM
Most people don't look beyond the second chapter of Job. So the question is, when God declared Job blameless, upright, and none like him, whose righteousness was God looking at? Did Job get saved first, and then became righteous, or was he righteous, and then became saved?
... Job, being an Old Testament Saint, was not saved until Jesus was nailed to the cross, died and freed the captives in Paradise. (Matt. 27:51-53) All the Old Testament Saints looked forward to the coming of the Messiah just as we, the New Testament Saints look back to His death for our salvation. And since there are none righteous (Rom. 3:10 & 23) but God He would have been comparing Job to Himself. Don't you think so?

sudds
May 16th 2008, 11:05 PM
... Job, being an Old Testament Saint, was not saved until Jesus was nailed to the cross, died and freed the captives in Paradise. (Matt. 27:51-53) All the Old Testament Saints looked forward to the coming of the Messiah just as we, the New Testament Saints look back to His death for our salvation. And since there are none righteous (Rom. 3:10 & 23) but God He would have been comparing Job to Himself. Don't you think so?

Good point the1bill. However, I think the point in time the godly saints living and dying before the cross was at the resurrection. I Peter 1:12 says that no created being knew the details of God's redemptive plan.......if they didn't know, then the 3 days that Jesus was turned over to sin would have been a TRIBULATION to them.......Yes, that is the tribulation...it's already happened.

In Matthew 27:51-53, the "holy city" was not Jerusalem, but heaven. In short some of those godly saints appeared in heaven.

boangry
May 16th 2008, 11:40 PM
??? job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, And he shall stand on the earth; 26:and after my skin is destroyed, this i know, That in my flesh I shall see God

obviously 1peter 1:12 doesn't mean that no one knew about the redemptive work that was coming!!

romans ch 4 says "Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness" so by faith(believing and following God) Job was accredited righteousness

tgallison
May 16th 2008, 11:48 PM
... Job, being an Old Testament Saint, was not saved until Jesus was nailed to the cross, died and freed the captives in Paradise. (Matt. 27:51-53) All the Old Testament Saints looked forward to the coming of the Messiah just as we, the New Testament Saints look back to His death for our salvation. And since there are none righteous (Rom. 3:10 & 23) but God He would have been comparing Job to Himself. Don't you think so?

Bill greetings

I do not understand your last sentence. Are you saying Job's righteousness was God's righteousness?

terrell

tgallison
May 16th 2008, 11:57 PM
Good point the1bill. However, I think the point in time the godly saints living and dying before the cross was at the resurrection. I Peter 1:12 says that no created being knew the details of God's redemptive plan.......if they didn't know, then the 3 days that Jesus was turned over to sin would have been a TRIBULATION to them.......Yes, that is the tribulation...it's already happened.

In Matthew 27:51-53, the "holy city" was not Jerusalem, but heaven. In short some of those godly saints appeared in heaven.

sudds Greetings

As I read 1 Peter 1:10-12 the prophets, which had the Spirit of Christ, knew what was gone to happen, just not when.

tgallison
May 17th 2008, 12:03 AM
??? job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, And he shall stand on the earth; 26:and after my skin is destroyed, this i know, That in my flesh I shall see God

obviously 1peter 1:12 doesn't mean that no one knew about the redemptive work that was coming!!

romans ch 4 says "Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness" so by faith(believing and following God) Job was accredited righteousness

boangry greetings

Agree with your statement. But what about Job, did he have his own righteousness aside from God's?

terrell

ARCHER42
May 17th 2008, 01:00 AM
??? job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, And he shall stand on the earth; 26:and after my skin is destroyed, this i know, That in my flesh I shall see God

obviously 1peter 1:12 doesn't mean that no one knew about the redemptive work that was coming!!

romans ch 4 says "Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness" so by faith(believing and following God) Job was accredited righteousness
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I agree with the above statement.

Look at what Job says in the 27th chapter:

All while my breath is in me, and the Spirit of God is in my nostrils;

My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue uttter deciet,

God forbid that I should justify you: till I die I will not remove mine integrity from me

"my righteousness" I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live
Job 27:3-6

I believe Job knew that he was a righteous man and that his source of righteousness was from God. Why? Because he 'believed' on God .. now matter what the circumstance.. just as Abraham did. Noah.... etc.
He 'knew' the source of his righteouness just as he knew and believed God was in control of everything no matter what happened.

The Book of Job shows the believer, God's Providence over all things.. including times of sorrow, joy, times of immense wealth and material things to having nothing at all. It shows us that He is the source of our Righteousness, He is the source of what we need and desire in our daily needs, it shows the believer that God even has control over the god of this world.. satan...

Job's righteousness was God's righteousness... because he believed and trusted as did many other Old Testament Saints.

I believe Job knew that when He said 'my righteousness' He knew that his 'source' was God's righteousness and that alone.

tgallison
May 17th 2008, 01:16 AM
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I agree with the above statement.

Look at what Job says in the 27th chapter:

All while my breath is in me, and the Spirit of God is in my nostrils;

My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue uttter deciet,

God forbid that I should justify you: till I die I will not remove mine integrity from me

"my righteousness" I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live
Job 27:3-6

I believe Job knew that he was a righteous man and that his source of righteousness was from God. Why? Because he 'believed' on God .. now matter what the circumstance.. just as Abraham did. Noah.... etc.
He 'knew' the source of his righteouness just as he knew and believed God was in control of everything no matter what happened.

The Book of Job shows the believer, God's Providence over all things.. including times of sorrow, joy, times of immense wealth and material things to having nothing at all. It shows us that He is the source of our Righteousness, He is the source of what we need and desire in our daily needs, it shows the believer that God even has control over the god of this world.. satan...

Job's righteousness was God's righteousness... because he believed and trusted as did many other Old Testament Saints.

I believe Job knew that when He said 'my righteousness' He knew that his 'source' was God's righteousness and that alone.

Archer42 greetings

Did Job have any righteousness aside from God's righteousness?

terrell

ARCHER42
May 17th 2008, 01:52 AM
Archer42 greetings

Did Job have any righteousness aside from God's righteousness?

terrell
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Job knew he was righteous, but he knew the "source" of his righteousness, which was from God Almighty Himself.
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Did Job have any righteousness aside from God's righteousness?

My answer is no.....

if you look at the discourse between Job and God in the 40th Chapter of Job...

Job says...... Behold, I am vile.....

In the 42 Chapter of Job... Job says...
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Had Job believed that his righteousness.. was his own or his own making and that it was 'good enough' then Job would of never confessed this to the Lord in his discourse. Job is a revelation of God's Providence over all things...

ARCHER42
May 17th 2008, 01:57 AM
In Matthew 27:51-53, the "holy city" was not Jerusalem, but heaven. In short some of those godly saints appeared in heaven.


When you do a word study on the word 'city' it actually means a 'literal' city or town... #4172 in the greek...

The 'saint's' graves or tombs were in the earth.. they were opened when Jesus the Christ was crucified and the vail was rent in two.. they were opened signifying His victory over death and the ability for man to come back to God thru Him only.

They didn't come out of the grave until after His resurrection as Jesus is the 'first' fruit.. resurrected from the dead. I believe that the 'saint's resurrection after His resurrection was a 'witness' to the people of that day to His power and His victory over death. As 'they' appeared unto many. It stated they went 'into' the city.. at that time it doesnt tell us that they 'ascended' into heaven to the New Jerusalem.. but that they went 'into' the holy city and appeared unto many.

I believe personally that these 'resurrected saints' did appear in Heaven but it was when Jesus Himself ascended... there is no record of this but its a personal belief of mine... He led those that were in Shoel, ( in 'Abraham's bosom', the 'holding place for the righteous dead') into Paradise when He ascended. He brought them out out of there after He was crucified and descended in the heart of the earth for 3 days. Scripture declares that He 'preached' there... He was 'proving' and declaring His victory over sin, death, hell and the grave. He then ascended taking those in Abraham's bosom with Him... 'proving' His victory over death to those that were there.

tgallison
May 17th 2008, 02:05 AM
------------------------------------------------------------

Job knew he was righteous, but he knew the "source" of his righteousness, which was from God Almighty Himself.
----------------------------------------------------------
Did Job have any righteousness aside from God's righteousness?

My answer is no.....

if you look at the discourse between Job and God in the 40th Chapter of Job...

Job says...... Behold, I am vile.....

In the 42 Chapter of Job... Job says...
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Had Job believed that his righteousness.. was his own or his own making and that it was 'good enough' then Job would of never confessed this to the Lord in his discourse. Job is a revelation of God's Providence over all things...

What did the Lord mean when he said to Satan, "Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man,"?

What did Job mean when he said,"My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live."?

terrell

th1bill
May 17th 2008, 02:19 AM
Good point the1bill. However, I think the point in time the godly saints living and dying before the cross was at the resurrection. I Peter 1:12 says that no created being knew the details of God's redemptive plan.......if they didn't know, then the 3 days that Jesus was turned over to sin would have been a TRIBULATION to them.......Yes, that is the tribulation...it's already happened.
... I read the scripture you have twisted out of it's context and was mystified so I read from verse one so as to grasp the context. In context the scripture points out that, as I stated the old saint were indeed looking forward to the day of Christs appearance here on the earth. I have no idea how you have managed to pervert the scripture to mean anything else to you but you are in serious need of the Holy Spirits enlightenment and for that I do pray on your behalf. As for the tribulation having already occurred, is you glass empty? You need more than an assertion to establish doctrine. Empty and voiceless statements are not of God.
... And if you are led of God, why are you, in this string, where the gentleman asked a question concerning Job, interjecting confusion? Confusion is not of my LORD it is of Satan.


In Matthew 27:51-53, the "holy city" was not Jerusalem, but heaven. In short some of those godly saints appeared in heaven.
... Once more you offer no indication of your assertion and when the text is read in context these events are occurring in the city where the Christ is crucified. Surely your not trying to prove that Jesus is still on the cross in Heaven, as your statement would indicate, are you?

th1bill
May 17th 2008, 02:21 AM
??? job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, And he shall stand on the earth; 26:and after my skin is destroyed, this i know, That in my flesh I shall see God

obviously 1peter 1:12 doesn't mean that no one knew about the redemptive work that was coming!!

romans ch 4 says "Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness" so by faith(believing and following God) Job was accredited righteousness
Thank you, great use of scripture to illustrate the truth.

ARCHER42
May 17th 2008, 02:44 AM
What did the Lord mean when he said to Satan, "Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man,"?

What did Job mean when he said,"My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live."?

terrell
----------------------------------------------------------

Are you even reading what I'm writing in my posts? It seems like your repetitive in your questions. And I don't understand what your trying to 'understand' thru this thread.

God Himself stated that Job was a perfect and upright man.... is that equal to Jobs righteousness?

What do you consider to be 'righteousness' in the Old Testament?

The Bible declares that Abraham 'believed' and followed God.. so that was accredited to him as Righteousness.... Noah the same thing... was it their 'own' righteousness.. of course not .. It was God's... God's righteousness accredited to them because they believed... as it was so well put by Boangry.. in the above post.

I will pose you a question..... do you think that you have any rightouesness outside of the PERFECT righteousness of Jesus the Christ .. who is the Gift of Righteousness?

ARCHER42
May 17th 2008, 02:57 AM
...... And if you are led of God, why are you, in this string, where the gentleman asked a question concerning Job, interjecting confusion? Confusion is not of my LORD it is of Satan.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill,
This whole thread from the start has the 'characteristics' of being confusing.. which leads me to wonder the 'source' of the question and where its leading to..

This will be my last post on this thread as I've stated my beliefs .

As it is written, there is NONE righteous, NO , not ONE:
Romans 3:10

Naphal
May 17th 2008, 08:02 AM
...... And if you are led of God, why are you, in this string, where the gentleman asked a question concerning Job, interjecting confusion? Confusion is not of my LORD it is of Satan.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill,
This whole thread from the start has the 'characteristics' of being confusing.. which leads me to wonder the 'source' of the question and where its leading to..

This will be my last post on this thread as I've stated my beliefs .

As it is written, there is NONE righteous, NO , not ONE:
Romans 3:10

I believe that you do not understand the context of that verse. Christ was righteous and so have been others:


Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.


Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

mikebr
May 17th 2008, 11:15 AM
One may do well to define righteousness.:idea:

sudds
May 17th 2008, 02:52 PM
O
riginally Posted by sudds http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1641791#post1641791)
In Matthew 27:51-53, the "holy city" was not Jerusalem, but heaven. In short some of those godly saints appeared in heaven.
When you do a word study on the word 'city' it actually means a 'literal' city or town... #4172 in the greek...

The 'saint's' graves or tombs were in the earth.. they were opened when Jesus the Christ was crucified and the vail was rent in two.. they were opened signifying His victory over death and the ability for man to come back to God thru Him only.

They didn't come out of the grave until after His resurrection as Jesus is the 'first' fruit.. resurrected from the dead. I believe that the 'saint's resurrection after His resurrection was a 'witness' to the people of that day to His power and His victory over death. As 'they' appeared unto many. It stated they went 'into' the city.. at that time it doesnt tell us that they 'ascended' into heaven to the New Jerusalem.. but that they went 'into' the holy city and appeared unto many.

I believe personally that these 'resurrected saints' did appear in Heaven but it was when Jesus Himself ascended... there is no record of this but its a personal belief of mine... He led those that were in Shoel, ( in 'Abraham's bosom', the 'holding place for the righteous dead') into Paradise when He ascended. He brought them out out of there after He was crucified and descended in the heart of the earth for 3 days. Scripture declares that He 'preached' there... He was 'proving' and declaring His victory over sin, death, hell and the grave. He then ascended taking those in Abraham's bosom with Him... 'proving' His victory over death to those that were there. Hello Archer42

Thanks for your reply. I apologize for veering from the thread topic, so I'll just post one scripture to respond.

Colossians 2:14. having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

Within the "written code" and "regulations" are physical things and places that were considered "holy," which included the physical city of Jerusalem. After Jesus' death on the cross, there is no longer any physical thing, object, or city that is holy. Therefore, if the people, who came out of the tombs (after Jesus' resurrection) went to the holy city, it had to be the heavenly Jerusalem.

sudds
May 17th 2008, 03:24 PM
tgallison wrote:

As I read 1 Peter 1:10-12 the prophets, which had the Spirit of Christ, knew what was gone to happen, just not when. Hello tgallison

Thanks for your reply. However, I would think just the opposite. Daniel's 70 weeks pinpointed a time. I would think the prophets living after Daniel might have understood (if this portion of scripture wasn't sealed up)( Daniel 12:9). Yet the details of the redemptive plan was a mystery.
Romans 16:25. Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past.

Everyone preconceived Jesus to set up an earthly kingdom and rule with glory

tgallison
May 18th 2008, 01:25 AM
...... And if you are led of God, why are you, in this string, where the gentleman asked a question concerning Job, interjecting confusion? Confusion is not of my LORD it is of Satan.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill,
This whole thread from the start has the 'characteristics' of being confusing.. which leads me to wonder the 'source' of the question and where its leading to..

This will be my last post on this thread as I've stated my beliefs .

As it is written, there is NONE righteous, NO , not ONE:
Romans 3:10

Archer42 greetings

Thank you for your answer. I didn't mean for this to be confusing. You said Job's righteousness was God's and not Job's. If that is the case why did God exalt Job before Satan. If Job's righteousness came from God, what makes Job any different from any one else that has put on God's righteousness.

People say how righteous Job was. That he was the most righteous person on the earth. When I say Job's righteousness couldn't save him, then most people say, oh it is God's righteousness. Our righteousness is as filthy rags.

It cannot be both ways, it is either God's or Job's.

I believe it was Job's righteousness that God was speaking of. Our thoughts and our ways are not God's. God looks at the intent of the heart which we cannot see. Look at what Job did. He lost all his children and all his possessions and not one complaint out of his mouth. Imagine someone that didn't know God, but was so seeking him trying to do right, because of what he had heard about God, not complaining when this happened. It would surely make him someone special. Wouldn't get him into heaven, but it could make him righteous in God's eyes.

Look at the following scripture closely. It coincides with what Naphal was saying.

Ezekiel 3:20 "Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit inquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

This righteousness is clearly man's and not God's, because God said the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered.

Didn't Israel stumble at the stumbling stone? We are supposed to be witnesses for Christ, to warn man that he needs to come to the righteousness of God.

This is the way I see Job, as you read the rest of the Book. A man that needed God's righteousness. And God sent him a man, one of a thousand, to warn Job of his iniquity.

Why did God say to Job, "Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee." God said to Job, when you become a God like me, then I will tell you, you can save yourself. Why would God say that to a man who was on his way to heaven?

terrell

sudds
May 18th 2008, 10:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sudds http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1641791#post1641791)
Good point the1bill. However, I think the point in time the godly saints living and dying before the cross was at the resurrection. I Peter 1:12 says that no created being knew the details of God's redemptive plan.......if they didn't know, then the 3 days that Jesus was turned over to sin would have been a TRIBULATION to them.......Yes, that is the tribulation...it's already happened.

... I read the scripture you have twisted out of it's context and was mystified so I read from verse one so as to grasp the context. In context the scripture points out that, as I stated the old saint were indeed looking forward to the day of Christs appearance here on the earth. I have no idea how you have managed to pervert the scripture to mean anything else to you but you are in serious need of the Holy Spirits enlightenment and for that I do pray on your behalf. As for the tribulation having already occurred, is you glass empty? You need more than an assertion to establish doctrine. Empty and voiceless statements are not of God.
... And if you are led of God, why are you, in this string, where the gentleman asked a question concerning Job, interjecting confusion? Confusion is not of my LORD it is of Satan.

Quote:
In Matthew 27:51-53, the "holy city" was not Jerusalem, but heaven. In short some of those godly saints appeared in heaven.
... Once more you offer no indication of your assertion and when the text is read in context these events are occurring in the city where the Christ is crucified. Surely your not trying to prove that Jesus is still on the cross in Heaven, as your statement would indicate, are you? Sorry about getting off the thread topic......I'll answer your questions in another thread subject to the statements you made....sure don't want to confuse.

If you're a Christian, then I'm your brother and Satan is my enemy.

tgallison
May 19th 2008, 12:21 AM
One may do well to define righteousness.:idea:

mikebr greetings

That sounds like a plan to me. Do you have a definition for righteousness, God's and man's?

terrell

tgallison
May 19th 2008, 01:54 PM
...... And if you are led of God, why are you, in this string, where the gentleman asked a question concerning Job, interjecting confusion? Confusion is not of my LORD it is of Satan.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill,
This whole thread from the start has the 'characteristics' of being confusing.. which leads me to wonder the 'source' of the question and where its leading to..

This will be my last post on this thread as I've stated my beliefs .

As it is written, there is NONE righteous, NO , not ONE:
Romans 3:10

Archer42 Greetings

The verse written in Romans 3:10 goes on to verse 13 and the words, become unprofitable, are found. The implication is, there was a movement from profitable to unprofitable.

Romans 3:10 was taken from Psalm 14. A closer look may reveal more truth.

Psalm 14:1-7 "The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord. There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the Lord is his refuge. Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad."

As you read the verses in chapter 15, you will see who is righteous. Following is just the first two verses.

Psalm 15:1-2 "Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in the holy hill? He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart."

In my opinion, there is a righteousness in man that leads God to allow you to become a servant, but it is the righteousness of Jesus Christ that allows us to become sons.

John 8:35 "And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever."

Galatians 4:7 "Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ."

terrell