PDA

View Full Version : How many times did satan fall?



divaD
May 19th 2008, 03:19 AM
The question speaks for itself. So, how many times?

1of7000
May 19th 2008, 03:39 AM
Lucifer fell once. We are still counting the bounces.

divaD
May 19th 2008, 03:47 AM
Lucifer fell once. We are still counting the bounces.



OK. So when was that one time, according to Scripture?

Athanasius
May 19th 2008, 03:52 AM
Since all creation was viewed as good in Genesis 1:31, I'm going to assume that he fell some time just before the fall of humanity.

1of7000
May 19th 2008, 03:57 AM
Between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

In vs 2 "was" should be translated "became" and then describes life after the chaos.

1of7000
May 19th 2008, 03:59 AM
assume


Can you say that here?

divaD
May 19th 2008, 04:09 AM
According to Xel'Naga's view, and 1of7000's view, so far we have satan falling twice, and not just one time.


1of7000, suppose you pinpoint with Scriptures when this fall occured.

1of7000
May 19th 2008, 04:17 AM
Between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

In vs 2 "was" should be translated "became" and then describes life after the chaos.

can't get much pinpointier than that

divaD
May 19th 2008, 04:39 AM
can't get much pinpointier than that



1of7000, Gen 1:2 makes no mention whatsoever of the fall of satan. Unfortunately you haven't pinpointed anything. Suppose someone new to the Bible were to read that verse, are you telling me that they could pinpoint the fall of satan within that verse? Don't you think that you would need to at least link that verse to the fall of satan somewhere else in the Bible? That's the pinpoint I'm looking for, the link that proves this occured in Gen 1:2. BTW, this thread is not about whether there was a gap or not, that's not the point I'm trying to make. So I'm not planning on arguing that point, because that's not the point I'm trying to make. I realize that it probably doesn't make much sense yet, but it will. We have to determine how many times that satan has fallen, before my point will even begin to make sense. BTW, I believe the Bible teaches satan fell only one time, and if Xel'Naga's view is what I am thinking it is, then I'm pretty much in agreement with Xel'Naga's view, that's assuming that view is what I'm thinking it is.

1of7000
May 19th 2008, 04:50 AM
I stated that it was between the verses. Please read what I wrote not what you think I wrote.

Lucifer's fall was the cause of the "becoming without form and void". The "Gap "is a store at the mall.

You seem more interested in defending your theology than understanding another point of view.

divaD
May 19th 2008, 05:17 AM
You seem more interested in defending your theology than understanding another point of view.

Trust me on this one, I understand your view more that you could ever know. So what you stated is untrue. I'm not trying to prove my theology, I'm simply wanting to see how many different views there are to satan's fall, and if that means that he fell more than once, or if all of these views are talking about one fall, but somehow occuring at different times from one another. And if the latter 2 are true, then which one is the truth?

I can see from my recent posts to you, that perhaps I didn't make myself as clear as I had hoped. Do you perhaps base your postion on Ezekiel ch 28? Is that the fall you see in Gen 1:2? Or from perhaps another book and chapter? That's what I'm trying to find out. :)

1of7000, also I was thinking, and I hope you didn't misunderstand me, I don't mind if you want to use Gen 1:2 to show support of your position. I just don't want it to become a gap against no gap type of thread.

Athanasius
May 19th 2008, 05:34 AM
BTW, I believe the Bible teaches satan fell only one time, and if Xel'Naga's view is what I am thinking it is, then I'm pretty much in agreement with Xel'Naga's view, that's assuming that view is what I'm thinking it is.

We're in agreement.

The other view is that of the Gap Theory, which has no biblical support whatsoever.

Naphal
May 19th 2008, 05:42 AM
The question speaks for itself. So, how many times?


The question is faulty. It was Lucifer that fell and once he fell, he was fallen. This means to fall from grace, to fall from his position in heaven as a cherub. That occurred once.


He continues in his "fall" by compounding his wickedness and sins and he will not stop until God destroys him.


And yes, Lucifer fell before God created human beings.

divaD
May 19th 2008, 05:49 AM
The question is faulty. It was Lucifer that fell and once he fell, he was fallen. This means to fall from grace, to fall from his
position in heaven as a cherub. That occurred once.



Naphal, technically this is true. So when did that occur and what were the consequences of that fall from grace? What were God's actions concerning this fall from grace concerning lucifer? Also I just noticed the last part of your post. You said he fell before humans were made. How do we know?

Naphal
May 19th 2008, 06:03 AM
Naphal, technically this is true. So when did that occur and what were the consequences of that fall from grace?


We aren't told specifically when it occurred. We have to study the scriptures and form an opinion based on what we read. Since Satan was the serpent in the garden and that is already a negative stereotyped animal and was tempting Adam and Eve to disobey God, I believe that shows he was already in a fallen state before they fell.

The consequences of his fall was a name change and a loss of that position in heaven as well as a death sentence.





What were God's actions concerning this fall from grace concerning lucifer?


I don't know what literal actions God took. We know that Satan was not barred from heaven as he was there in Job's time and shown there in Rev 12.




Also I just noticed the last part of your post. You said he fell before humans were made. How do we know?

See my first answer above.

markedward
May 19th 2008, 06:05 AM
If we're using the word "fall" in the same manner that we refer to man's fall, that is, when man began to sin, then we do know exactly when Satan "fell."


You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.


He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

Both John 8:44 and 1 John 3:8 say that Satan was sinning from his very beginning, so Satan's "fall" took place immediately after he was created.

This directly contradicts the "Lucifer" myth that has perpetuated since Jerome's mistake-filled Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. The "Lucifer" version of Satan's story says he was once a beautiful angel and that eventually he became corrupt and was kicked out of heaven for trying to overthrow God. According to Jesus, and the first epistle of John, Satan was sinning from his very beginning, contradicting the idea that Satan was good for a while until he "eventually" corrupted with pride. The Revelation also directly says Satan was exiled from heaven after "the man-child" (Jesus) ascended to heaven, which contradicts the idea that Satan was exiled from heaven shortly after his alleged "eventual" corruption.

1of7000
May 19th 2008, 06:26 AM
Trust me on this one, I understand your view more that you could ever know. So what you stated is untrue.

Now, at this point I could make the case that you are calling me ignorant and a liar, but I will let that go.

Isaiah 14:12ff describe the fall of Lucifer
When the fall occurred has been discussed in previous threads.

You can only be kicked out of heaven once.

divaD
May 19th 2008, 06:39 AM
We aren't told specifically when it occurred. We have to study the scriptures and form an opinion based on what we read.
Since Satan was the serpent in the garden and that is already a negative stereotyped animal and was tempting Adam and Eve
to disobey God, I believe that shows he was already in a fallen state before they fell.

The consequences of his fall was a name change and a loss of that position in heaven as well as a death sentence.



naphal, take notice of what you just stated up above. Do you not see a contradiction? How many times can or will God condemn this same being to a death sentence?

You clearly said in the first part that satan was the serpent in the garden, and in the second part you clearly stated God condemned this same being to death previous to man being made.

Now here is what it states in Gen 3, after the fact of the encounter of the serpent with Eve, and Adam.


Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Practically everyone that has ever interpreted these verses, understands that this is a direct revelation concerning the destruction of satan by way of Christ in the future.

But if God already promised satan a death sentence prior to man being made, then why does He see the need to impose yet another death sentence on this same being?



1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil


Here it says that the devil sinneth from the beginning. So what beginning is it talking about? Doesn't the next part of that verse give us a clue to that beginning? Isn't this what happened in the garden? Isn't this the beginning that the devil sinneth from. And wasn't it here in the garden that we get revelation from God, concerning the purpose that the Son of God would be manifested for at a later time, that he might destroy the works of the devil? And if this is the beginning spoken of in 1 John 3:8, then how did this same being fall from grace at yet from a time before man was made? Keep in mind, this means two death sentences on the same being. Wouldn't once be enough. Surely, since we're talking about God, He would only have to condemn this creature to death only once, and not twice. To say otherwise, is like saying God didn't really mean it the first time, but the second time He was serious.

Naphal
May 19th 2008, 06:51 AM
How many times can or will God condemn this same being to a death sentence?

I don't know and it really doesn't matter. We are never told about when or what was said about his being sentenced only that he shall be killed.

What exactly is the contradiction that you see?




You clearly said in the first part that satan was the serpent in the garden, and in the second part you clearly stated God condemned this same being to death previous to man being made.

I believe that his sin against God was unforgiveable and that he was sentenced to death, even if it was informally done, when he did "fall". His fall did occur before man fell as it was the fallen Satan that tempted man into sin.





Now here is what it states in Gen 3, after the fact of the encounter of the serpent with Eve, and Adam.


Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Practically everyone that has ever interpreted these verses, understands that this is a direct revelation concerning the destruction of satan by way of Christ in the future.



This is not the destruction. It is a wound to the head. His actual destruction is a full body destruction by fire in the lake of fire.




But if God already promised satan a death sentence prior to man being made, then why does He see the need to impose yet another death sentence on this same being?



You assumed wrongly about the Genesis scripture.






1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil


Here it says that the devil sinneth from the beginning. So what beginning is it talking about?



This can be taken a lot of ways. If you want to get literal, then you have to believe God intentionally made Satan an evil being who would bring sin and death and destruction to God's creation. I don't believe in that. I believe Satan was good and fell from pride.





Doesn't the next part of that verse give us a clue to that beginning? Isn't this what happened in the garden? Isn't this the beginning that the devil sinneth from.

No.

RogerW
May 19th 2008, 01:13 PM
If we're using the word "fall" in the same manner that we refer to man's fall, that is, when man began to sin, then we do know exactly when Satan "fell."

Both John 8:44 and 1 John 3:8 say that Satan was sinning from his very beginning, so Satan's "fall" took place immediately after he was created.

This directly contradicts the "Lucifer" myth that has perpetuated since Jerome's mistake-filled Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. The "Lucifer" version of Satan's story says he was once a beautiful angel and that eventually he became corrupt and was kicked out of heaven for trying to overthrow God. According to Jesus, and the first epistle of John, Satan was sinning from his very beginning, contradicting the idea that Satan was good for a while until he "eventually" corrupted with pride. The Revelation also directly says Satan was exiled from heaven after "the man-child" (Jesus) ascended to heaven, which contradicts the idea that Satan was exiled from heaven shortly after his alleged "eventual" corruption.

Good points markedward! I think much of the misunderstanding comes from Isaiah also. Many assume Lucifer is the anointed cherub who walked in beauty, became proud, and fell from his high position.

Blessings,
RW

divaD
May 19th 2008, 02:25 PM
Now, at this point I could make the case that you are calling me ignorant and a liar, but I will let that go.

.


There is where you're wrong again. I simply used an expression to indicate that I understand your view more than you give me credit for, more than you could ever know, since you have no idea about what I do or do not know about your view, since you claimed that I wasn't interested in another POV besides mine, I am in no way claiming that I understand your view better than you do. I was simply using an expression that I have used for years, perhaps you're not familiar with that expression, I don't know, but so far, you have read me the wrong way, and are accusing me falsely of things that didn't even enter into my thoughts.

divaD
May 19th 2008, 02:56 PM
Both John 8:44 and 1 John 3:8 say that Satan was sinning from his very beginning, so Satan's "fall" took place immediately
after he was created.


The Bible also says that he was a murderer from the beginning. So, if this is in ref to right after he was created, then who or what did he murder?


John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Once again, if we link this beginning to the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve, we know that he caused the death of man. It was the serpent that decieved Eve, it was the serpent that abode not in the truth while in the garden, knowing very well that man would die if they partook of the forbidden fruit.
This beginning, has to be, what took place in the garden of Eden, nothing else makes sense.

ARCHER42
May 19th 2008, 03:33 PM
Adam and Eve's children by birth..... Cain and Abel....

Who planted that murderous thought or action in Cain's heart to murder his brother because he offered up a better offering and then moved him to bring that murderous act to pass?

Yes Satan, and he has been a murderer from the very beginning......

ARCHER42
May 19th 2008, 04:21 PM
Good points markedward! I think much of the misunderstanding comes from Isaiah also. Many assume Lucifer is the anointed cherub who walked in beauty, became proud, and fell from his high position.

Blessings,
RW
-------------------------------------------------------------
??????????
RW
are u assuming that Lucifer didn't walk in beauty, was haughty and fell from his high postition?

If you are then give me some scriputure that proves otherwise.

matthew94
May 19th 2008, 04:53 PM
Here's a lil study I did on this topic last year. I make no conclusions in this summary, just point out possibilities.

POTENTIAL 1ST FALL

THEORY
Lucifer was a beautiful angel, but pride led to his fall. He desired to ascend higher than God, but instead was cast down to the earth.

PASSAGES USED
Isaiah 14:12-17
Ezekiel 28:11-19
Luke 10:18
Revelation 9:1

DOCTRINAL QUESTIONS
If Satan isn’t a fallen angel, where did he come from?
What would motivate a perfect angel to rebel?
Will we have free will in the new heaven & earth?

POTENTIAL 2ND FALL

THEORY
After the ascension of Jesus Christ (or BY His 1st century Ministry), there was war in heaven. Satan’s side was defeated, lost their place in heaven, and Satan was hurled down to the earth. He no longer had the right to accuse God’s people. Additionally, some believe he no longer had the ability to prevent the spread of the Gospel.

PASSAGES USED
Revelation 12:1-12, 20:1-3
John 12:31
Colossians 2:15
Hebrews 2:14
1 John 3:8

DOCTRINAL QUESTIONS
How could Satan be hurled down to the earth a 2nd time?
Isn’t it obvious that Satan is still accusing the brethren as he did with Job?
Isn’t it obvious that Satan is not currently bound?

POTENTIAL 3RD FALL

THEORY
After the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ, Satan will be bound and thrown into the Abyss for 1,000 years during which Christ will rule the earth with an iron scepter. After the 1,000 years Satan will be released for 1 final battle prior to Judgment Day.

PASSAGES
Revelation 20:1-3

DOCTRINAL QUESTIONS
Isn’t the 2nd Coming equivalent to the destruction of the earth?
Why is this 1,000 years necessary?
Should we build our beliefs on lone passages?

POTENTIAL 4TH FALL

THEORY
At the end of time, Satan will be thrown into the lake of burning sulfur to be tormented forever and ever.

PASSAGES
Revelation 20:7-10
Matthew 25:41

DOCTRINAL QUESTIONS
Aren’t we a part of the new creation now?
Isn’t our sin nature enough to account for temptation?

RogerW
May 19th 2008, 05:58 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------
??????????
RW
are u assuming that Lucifer didn't walk in beauty, was haughty and fell from his high postition?

If you are then give me some scriputure that proves otherwise.

I don't believe Satan is a fallen angel. I believe this is assumed from the poor translation 'Lucifer' found in Isa 14:12.

Ezekiel speaks of the king of Tyrus as perfect in beauty, in the garden of Eden, with every precious stone his covering, calling him (the king of Tyrus) the anointed cherub. Here again, assumption makes a gaint leap that 'cherub' means angel. But according to the Hebrew cherub means - of uncertain derivation; a cherub or imaginary figure:--cherub, (plural) cherubims. Angel is defined as a messenger of God, and never an imaginary figure.

Again it is assumed that God is using the King of Tyrus to depict Satan as a fallen angel.

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Tyrus is human created in the image of God, as righteous, but who turned from God in sin, and therefore falls under God's judgment. Tyrus does not represent a fallen angel, he represents man (Adam) before the fall. Man as he was created in the image of God, but has fallen in Adam.

It was human who was perfect in the garden of God, but sin was found in us, and we all died in Adam (1Co 15:20-22), and now we are all under judgment. Unless man is restored to the image of God that we had in the garden, before the fall, we will remain fallen, and come under the wrath of God. The King of Tyrus is man from the seed of the first Adam, and can only be restored to the image of God by the second Adam, Christ.

Man qualifies for all we read in this passage from Ezekiel, angels do not. It was Adam who walked before God, in the image of God, was perfect in all his ways in the garden among the stones of God, from the day that he was created, until iniquity was found in him through the fall. The fall of king of Tyrus in his sinfulness exemplifies the fall from grace by Adam. It was man who was corrupted by knowledge, who desired to be like God, and this is what caused his fall.

The King of Tyrus is a representation of fallen man, not of an angel or Satan. He was the very image of God (cherub; remember cherub is defined imagery) from the day that he was created, till iniquity was found in him. When God says, "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus," it is a lamentation for man, not for Satan, nor for fallen angels. When God says, "I will destroy thee, O covering Cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire," it speaks of the judgment of man, and how He is come under the wrath of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

Brother Mark
May 19th 2008, 06:03 PM
The King of Tyrus is a representation of fallen man, not of an angel or Satan. He was the very image of God (cherub; remember cherub is defined imagery) from the day that he was created, till iniquity was found in him. When God says, "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus," it is a lamentation for man, not for Satan, nor for fallen angels. When God says, "I will destroy thee, O covering Cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire," it speaks of the judgment of man, and how He is come under the wrath of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

Here's what scripture says concerning the Cherubs.

Gen 3:24

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
KJV

It's the first time the word is used. If cherubims are to be men, then are we to assume that it was Adam that guarded the entrance to Eden?

RogerW
May 19th 2008, 06:34 PM
Here's what scripture says concerning the Cherubs.

Gen 3:24

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
KJV

It's the first time the word is used. If cherubims are to be men, then are we to assume that it was Adam that guarded the entrance to Eden?

I did not say cherubims are men. I said that man is symbolized through the anointed cherub as the image of God. I believe the proper understanding is that cherub is a symbolic figure representing certain characteristics of the Glory of God. In the case of man before the fall as the anointed cherub that symbolizes the image of God.

So what do you think the cherubims guarding the way to the tree of life with swords of fire symbolize? The sword is often dipicted as the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit is described as, "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them." Seems the way to the tree of life is through the Word and Spirit...what do you think? Does it seem the cherubims with flames of fire guarding the way to the tree of life represent certain characteristics of the Glory of God?

Blessings,
RW

ARCHER42
May 19th 2008, 07:23 PM
[quote=RogerW;1644325]I don't believe Satan is a fallen angel. I believe this is assumed from the poor translation 'Lucifer' found in Isa 14:12.


Well then.. who is 'satan'.. What is he considered to be? I'd like to hear your theory... Do you think satan exists or is he just an image of some type.. If he's not a fallen angel then who is he? I'm really interested to hear your Biblical perspective on this....

divaD
May 19th 2008, 07:23 PM
The King of Tyrus is a representation of fallen man, not of an angel or Satan. He was the very image of God (cherub;
remember cherub is defined imagery) from the day that he was created, till iniquity was found in him. When God says, "Son
of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus," it is a lamentation for man, not for Satan, nor for fallen angels.
When God says, "I will destroy thee, O covering Cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire," it speaks of the judgment
of man, and how He is come under the wrath of God.


What do you do with rest of that chapter to make it fit your theory? The rest of that ch pretty much makes your theory not make sense anymore, that's assuming that your initial theory, involving the previous verses were correct.



Ezekiel 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Brother Mark
May 19th 2008, 07:29 PM
I did not say cherubims are men. I said that man is symbolized through the anointed cherub as the image of God. I believe the proper understanding is that cherub is a symbolic figure representing certain characteristics of the Glory of God. In the case of man before the fall as the anointed cherub that symbolizes the image of God.

So what do you think the cherubims guarding the way to the tree of life with swords of fire symbolize? The sword is often dipicted as the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit is described as, "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them." Seems the way to the tree of life is through the Word and Spirit...what do you think? Does it seem the cherubims with flames of fire guarding the way to the tree of life represent certain characteristics of the Glory of God?

Blessings,
RW

I don't know really. I'll have to look into it. But I don't think the cherubs mentioned concerning the king of tyre refer back to Adam. ;)

ARCHER42
May 19th 2008, 07:34 PM
I don't believe Satan is a fallen angel. I believe this is assumed from the poor translation 'Lucifer' found in Isa 14:12.

Many Blessings,
RW
------------------------------------------------------------

Roger, not to offend you.. but the more I look at what you said I'm going to disagree 100 percent with your theory..

This thread started out as a thread asking, how many times Satan has fallen.. With the respect to the OP.. let's keep it that way..

Let's not turn it into a thread tyring to decide if satan exists or trying to decide if he is a fallen angel. Scripture declares what he is and his eternal state.

To the OP.. I apologize for possibly directing this thread in another direction.

divaD
May 19th 2008, 07:56 PM
------------------------------------------------------------

Roger, not to offend you.. but the more I look at what you said I'm going to disagree 100 percent with your theory..

This thread started out as a thread asking, how many times Satan has fallen.. With the respect to the OP.. let's keep it that way..

Let's not turn it into a thread tyring to decide if satan exists or trying to decide if he is a fallen angel. Scripture declares what he is and his eternal state.

To the OP.. I apologize for possibly directing this thread in another direction.


ARCHER42, I look at things a little bit differently than others, I suppose. I can see where RogerW's pov actually has relevence to this topic. Since I asked how many times satan fell, perhaps it was zero, according to RogerW's POV. I have no problem whatsoever considering RogerW's pov. So feel free to take this discussion anywhere you feel. I would be interested to hear RogerW's take, on satan, myself.

JordanW
May 19th 2008, 08:07 PM
Didn't Satan also "fall" when he was thrown out of Heaven?

divaD
May 19th 2008, 08:46 PM
Didn't Satan also "fall" when he was thrown out of Heaven?


In order to even address this, you would need to provide Scriptures to show this position. What Scriptures do you base this on?

ARCHER42
May 19th 2008, 10:17 PM
ARCHER42, I look at things a little bit differently than others, I suppose. I can see where RogerW's pov actually has relevence to this topic. Since I asked how many times satan fell, perhaps it was zero, according to RogerW's POV. I have no problem whatsoever considering RogerW's pov. So feel free to take this discussion anywhere you feel. I would be interested to hear RogerW's take, on satan, myself.
------------------------------------------------------
DivaD

Me too I'm very interested to find out his theory on the accuser of the brethern and what he is and who he is...
I didnt want to overstep my bounds or take this thread in the opposite direction from what you started... thanks for the post.

JordanW
May 19th 2008, 10:21 PM
In order to even address this, you would need to provide Scriptures to show this position. What Scriptures do you base this on?I don't know the scripture off hand, but when God threw him out of Heaven, doesn't that mean he "fell" to Hell? I think it does.

ARCHER42
May 19th 2008, 10:28 PM
RW,
I should first ask you these questions? Do you believe angels exist .. do you believe in fallen angels? do you believe in Ministering angels or ministering spirits.. sent forth to them who shall be the heirs of salvation? Do you believe in a 'literal' devil who walks to and fro on the earth as it is declared in the Book of Job? I guess we should start there before trying to decided how many times this 'satan' fell...

markedward
May 19th 2008, 10:38 PM
I don't know the scripture off hand, but when God threw him out of Heaven, doesn't that mean he "fell" to Hell? I think it does.The only Scriptural reference of Satan being thrown out of heaven is in Revelation 12. It doesn't say Satan "fell," and it doesn't say he was thrown to hell.

Contrary to popular belief, Satan is not going to be the "ruler" of the eternal fire. Jesus said that the eternal fire was made as punishment for Satan and his fallen angels, and the only time we see Satan in the lake of fire is in the book of Revelation, near the end of the book, when Satan is cast into the lake of fire, but this is after his exile from heaven.

Hades is not the same thing as the eternal fire, and there is no connection with Satan and hades, other than the fact that they are both thrown into the lake of fire, seen in Revelation 20.

Naphal
May 19th 2008, 10:43 PM
Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

JordanW
May 19th 2008, 10:45 PM
Thank you Naphal, thus that proves my point.

RogerW
May 19th 2008, 11:27 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------
??????????
RW
are u assuming that Lucifer didn't walk in beauty, was haughty and fell from his high postition?

If you are then give me some scriputure that proves otherwise.


[quote=RogerW;1644325]I don't believe Satan is a fallen angel. I believe this is assumed from the poor translation 'Lucifer' found in Isa 14:12.


Well then.. who is 'satan'.. What is he considered to be? I'd like to hear your theory... Do you think satan exists or is he just an image of some type.. If he's not a fallen angel then who is he? I'm really interested to hear your Biblical perspective on this....


------------------------------------------------------------

Roger, not to offend you.. but the more I look at what you said I'm going to disagree 100 percent with your theory..

This thread started out as a thread asking, how many times Satan has fallen.. With the respect to the OP.. let's keep it that way..

Let's not turn it into a thread tyring to decide if satan exists or trying to decide if he is a fallen angel. Scripture declares what he is and his eternal state.

To the OP.. I apologize for possibly directing this thread in another direction.


RW,
I should first ask you these questions? Do you believe angels exist .. do you believe in fallen angels? do you believe in Ministering angels or ministering spirits.. sent forth to them who shall be the heirs of salvation? Do you believe in a 'literal' devil who walks to and fro on the earth as it is declared in the Book of Job? I guess we should start there before trying to decided how many times this 'satan' fell...

Greetings Archer42,

It seems I have presented you with things you have never before considered, or even heard of. You are right, I do have an opinion regarding this topic, however I do NOT have all the answers.

Who is Lucifer? Lucifer is mentioned only one time in Scripture, and it means 'morning star' or 'star of the morning'. The king of Babylon, symbolizing fallen man is being referenced as the 'morning star' according to Isaiah 14:4.

Isa 14:4 ¶ That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

The following verses 13, 14 are very similar to a passage found in Genesis 11.

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Ge 11:3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
Ge 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
Ge 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
Ge 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Ge 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Ge 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
Ge 11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

It is fallen man, desiring to be like God, building the tower to reach unto heaven. It's the same pride of heart seen in the garden when man saw the fruit and thought to become like God.

To further show this proverb of the 'star of the morning' or 'morning star' is fallen man, Isaiah asks, "Is this the MAN that made the earth to tremble". Also the Lord says that Lucifer, 'star of the morning' will be brought down to hell. Hell is sheol, and means the grave, not the lake of fire. Satan is not brought down to the grave because he is a spirit being, and has no flesh and blood as humans who return to the dust from whence they came.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

1. Yes, I believe angels exist, the Bible is replete with this fact.
2. I believe in created, fallen spirit beings.
3. Yes, I believe in ministering angels/spirits.
4. Yes, I believe in a literal devil.

I hope this helps, and I'm pretty certain it will bring additional questions. I will be delighted to answer your questions, when I can, to the best of my ability. I look forward to further discussion of this topic.

Many Blessings,
RW

ARCHER42
May 20th 2008, 12:05 AM
Satan is not brought down to the grave because he is a spirit being, and has no flesh and blood as humans who return to the dust from whence they came.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The 'spirit being' you speak about as being satan.. is this an angelic being? I only know of angelic creatures in the Bible.. those who rebelled and are 'fallen' and those who did not. Could you clarify this for me? I've never heard of 'spirit beings'... is this Biblical?
btw.. thanks for the earlier reponses..

ARCHER42
May 20th 2008, 12:16 AM
According to your 'theory' You conclude that satan is a 'spirit being'.... I can discern that.... now if thats an angelic being then your really saying that satan is an angel...

you posted earlier that:
I don't believe Satan is a fallen angel

Well if he is not a fallen angel then he must a a 'good angel'.. and we know that this is not true from Scripture.

ARCHER42
May 20th 2008, 12:30 AM
The phrase 'spirit being' to me sounds like New Age mumbo jumbo......

The Bible talks about ministering spirits or angelic beings... They were created to serve God at His will...
some of those angelic host rebelled against God and are in a fallen state.. meaing they never have the chance at God's redemption. Other angelic creatures did not rebel and are currently serving God the Father at His will.
Angels do not have flesh and bone as humans do...
they have an angelic body .. what that angelic body is composed of I dont know...

'spirit being'... that sounds new ageish.....

In the Bible it talks about
angels, arch angels, cheribs, cheribums, seriaphems, ministering spirits, devils, unclean spirits, the devil,

divaD
May 20th 2008, 12:48 AM
The following verses 13, 14 are very similar to a passage found in Genesis 11.

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I
will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Ge 11:3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and
slime had they for morter.
Ge 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make
us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
Ge 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
Ge 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do:
and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Ge 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's
speech.
Ge 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build
the city.
Ge 11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth:


RogerW, I find it very interesting that you make this connection here, between Isaiah and Genesis. If we look back in Gen ch 10, we see this.


Genesis 10:8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.
9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.
10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.
11 Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,
12 And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city.


Personally, I link these verses to Gen ch 11 among others. But look at verse 10.

Genesis 10:10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Apparently the devil has kingdoms. Of course we also learn of that fact thru other books, such as Daniel.

So, since we know the devil has kingdoms on earth, here in Gen 10 we clearly see the beginning of a kingdom. A beginning of a kingdom for satan perhaps? Food for thought.

ARCHER42
May 20th 2008, 01:12 AM
Hell is sheol, and means the grave
-------------------------------------------------

Yes Hell is Sheol....The word Sheol in the Hebrew means the grave, hell, or pit.. It is considered the subteranean retreat or the 'unseen'.. the place of departed souls. The Hebrew word # is 7585... It is also considered to be Hades in the NT... It is not the Lake of Fire and its not the 'ghenna hell fire ' spoken of in the New Testament. In the OT.. both the righteous dead and 'wicked' dead departed to this place (Sheol) at the point of death. The 'righteous' were in Abrahams bosom and the wicked were in torment. A chasm separated them both. Abrahams bosom is considered to be 'above' the wicked dead as the 'rich man' lifted up his eyes and saw Lazarus.
This 'subterannean' retreat or 'sheol' is also the place Jesus the Christ 'descended' into after His crucifixtion and He preached unto the spirits there.

For this cause was the Gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the Spirit.
1 Peter 4: 6

It is believed that Jesus the Christ on His ascension took those in Abrahams bosom with Him into paradise.
Thus 'emptying' that portion of Sheol that was for the 'righteous dead. The Psalmist says... Captivity was led captive...

Sheol is translated as the 'grave' but a persons soul and spirit doesnt just 'lie' in the grave... Physcial death is not the end of a persons soul and spirit. There are many that speak of soul sleep.. but that is heresy. There is no such thing.... after death a persons soul and spirit does not just stop existing or lie in a comatose state in the grave.

ARCHER42
May 20th 2008, 02:02 AM
RW

2. I believe in created, fallen spirit beings.
-------------------------------------------------------

In my first question to you I posed the Question..
do you believe in fallen angels?

And you responded with the above answer... I did not ask you if you believed in 'fallen spirit beings' but fallen angels. I don't know where you came up with 'fallen spirit' beings. This sounds really 'fishy' to me.....

Do you believe in 'fallen angels'?

ARCHER42
May 20th 2008, 03:44 AM
The Bible talks about 'heaven', 'the heavens'... etc...

What are we talking about here? Paul stated in the New Testament that there was a man who was 'caught up into the 3rd Heaven... By reading this, this man was in the third heaven.. and he was not allowed to speak of things he saw and heard there...it actually states that he was caught up into Paradise.... could that mean that there is a 1st heaven and a 2nd heaven? In the Book of Job you have the verbal intercourse between God and satan. Where did this take place? Was it in the 3rd heaven? Would this of taken place in the 2nd or 1st heaven if there is a place?

From my studies.. Paradise is that 3rd Heaven... You look at it in the Book of 2 Corinthians. It is the dwelling place of God Himself... its where those who die in Christ go to.. Its where Jesus the Christ Ascended to... It's where He came from before He put on flesh and became God in the flesh.. I don't believe any 'wickedness' abides here.

Now what we see with our naked eye.. the sun the stars.. the moon etc.... what we look thru with telescopes.... this is also considered the heavens. I personally believe this to be the 2nd heaven... I believe this is where those wicked principalities and powers, rulers of the darkness of this world, spiritual wickedness in 'high' places are located.. The word 'high' in the Greek means celestial... above the sky .. heavenly, high.

Then we have our 'earth's atmosphere' the Sky... the layers of 'air' moving above our atmosphere.. Satan is considered to be the 'prince of the power of the air'... which means he also abides here as well as walking to and fro on the earth. Look up the word 'air' in the Greek and see what it means... This in my studies is considered the 1st heaven.

Notice the 1st and 2nd heaven where the spiritual wickedness is seated and the 'prince of the power of the air' resides... then you have the earth..

Thru my studies I believe that Satan at the beginning was cast out of the 3rd heaven. This was after his insurrection and 'confession' to be like the Most High and leading many other angelic beings with him... 'the fall'... They are 'fallen' and have no chance at God's redemption.. They have seen His glory and were apart of it but they 'chose' to rebel. Their 'eternal' state is the Lake of Fire...THEY HAVE NO CHANCE AT REDEMPTION.... They were cast out of the 3rd Heaven and contained to the 1st and 2nd Heaven. But some didnt stop there.. It states that some 'left' their habitation or kept not their first estate... They actually came to this earth and tried to pro create with women. This was 'prior' to the 'flood'. These angels have been reserved in chains under darkness for the judgement of that Great day.

When we start talking about 'angels' , 'angelic intervention', angelic warfare, spiritual warfare, devils, unclean spirits we are talking about the supernatural. Its not the natural but the supernatural. Angelic spirits have the ability to move in and out of the natural realm into the supernatual realm. They have the ability to move as they are directed and ordered in the heavenlies.

I also believe sometime in the future probably 'midway' thru Daniels 70th week ... Satan will also be expelled from the 1st and 2nd heaven. Cast down to the earth and not allowed to move freely. This happening and he 'knowing' he has but a short time he will take his vengeance on those on the earth. Over time since the beginning he has been 'expelled' in a timely fashion till it gets to a point to where he has no other place to go.

At the Second coming he will be bound and shackled and placed in the bottomless pit for 1000 years. Only to be loosed at the end of this and lead another rebellion against God and the Holy City.. then he will be dealt with and it will be his eternal state.. the Lake of Fire.. where the anti christ and false prophet are.

RogerW
May 20th 2008, 11:20 AM
RogerW, I find it very interesting that you make this connection here, between Isaiah and Genesis. If we look back in Gen ch 10, we see this.

Genesis 10:8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.
9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.
10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.
11 Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,
12 And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city.

Personally, I link these verses to Gen ch 11 among others. But look at verse 10.

Genesis 10:10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Apparently the devil has kingdoms. Of course we also learn of that fact thru other books, such as Daniel.

So, since we know the devil has kingdoms on earth, here in Gen 10 we clearly see the beginning of a kingdom. A beginning of a kingdom for satan perhaps? Food for thought.

Morning Diva,

I don't have much time this morning, so I will respond to archer later today (hopefully). I simply wanted to say I see this as very good food for thought.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
May 20th 2008, 11:29 PM
Hell is sheol, and means the grave
-------------------------------------------------

Yes Hell is Sheol....The word Sheol in the Hebrew means the grave, hell, or pit.. It is considered the subteranean retreat or the 'unseen'.. the place of departed souls. The Hebrew word # is 7585... It is also considered to be Hades in the NT... It is not the Lake of Fire and its not the 'ghenna hell fire ' spoken of in the New Testament. In the OT.. both the righteous dead and 'wicked' dead departed to this place (Sheol) at the point of death. The 'righteous' were in Abrahams bosom and the wicked were in torment. A chasm separated them both. Abrahams bosom is considered to be 'above' the wicked dead as the 'rich man' lifted up his eyes and saw Lazarus.

I completely agree! It's really too bad the translators decided to simply translate "hell" and did not make a distinction between Hades (abode of the dead; grave), Ghenna (place of everlasting punishment), and in some translations Tartaroo (the deepest abyss of Hades).



This 'subterannean' retreat or 'sheol' is also the place Jesus the Christ 'descended' into after His crucifixtion and He preached unto the spirits there.

For this cause was the Gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the Spirit.
1 Peter 4: 6

While I agree that Christ descended into Hades; i.e. the grave, after His crucifixion, I believe He went to that part of the grave called 'Abraham's bosom.' The purpose for Him going there was to set the captives free.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

These captives are all the OT saints who died in faith, but did not receive the promise of heaven (Heb 11:13-16). No one could ascend into heaven until after Christ literally went there to prepare a place for them (Jo 14:2,3).

I believe this verse in 1Pe is speaking of the spiritually dead, not the physically dead. What would be the purpose for the Lord to go into the deepest abyss of the grave and preach to men who have already pysically died? There is no longer any possiblity for salvation? Until we are made alive in Christ "we are dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1).

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Unfortunately 'angels', like 'hell' could be less confusing if the interpreters had simply tranlated 'angels' 'messengers' and allow the context to determine whether the messengers are spiritual beings or human beings.

This verse in 2Pe is often interpreted as spiritual beings (angels), but the context shows us that the messengers in this passage are not spirit beings, but human beings.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels [messengers] that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartaroo; the deepest abyss of Hades/grave], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

The context is speaking of those living at the time of the flood, comparing the destruction to the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrha.

2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Who are the messengers, living at the time of Noah who sinned, and were cast into the deepest abyss of the grave? I believe these were those from the line of Seth when men began to call upon the name of the LORD.

Ge 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

The Godly line of Seth were not to take wives from the ungodly line, but they took them wives of all which they chose, polluting the Godly line. This was the final sin that brought the flood waters upon the whole earth.

Ge 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Ge 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.



It is believed that Jesus the Christ on His ascension took those in Abrahams bosom with Him into paradise.
Thus 'emptying' that portion of Sheol that was for the 'righteous dead. The Psalmist says... Captivity was led captive...

I believe Christ took them to the heavenly realm. I believe this argument can be made through the following passage of Mt 27. Since Jerusalem ceased to be the holy city after the cross, I believe the holy city where they appeared to many is the Holy Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven (Rev 3:12; 21:2).

Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mt 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.



Sheol is translated as the 'grave' but a persons soul and spirit doesnt just 'lie' in the grave... Physcial death is not the end of a persons soul and spirit. There are many that speak of soul sleep.. but that is heresy. There is no such thing.... after death a persons soul and spirit does not just stop existing or lie in a comatose state in the grave.

As I have shown, I believe when a person dies in unbelief (after the cross), he/she goes hades - the grave to await Judgment Day. But the person who dies in Christ goes in spirit immediately to be with the Lord (2Co 5:8). I don't believe the one dying in unbelief is conscience of his/her fate, but simply waiting in silence (Ps 115:17) for the fullness of time, when they will be bodily raised for the Judgment. That Lazarus and the rich depict awareness I believe is simply showing us the fate of all who die in unbelief, and once we go down into the grave in unbelief our fate is sealed forever, and judgment and eternal suffering will begin at the last day.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
May 20th 2008, 11:42 PM
RW

2. I believe in created, fallen spirit beings.
-------------------------------------------------------

In my first question to you I posed the Question..
do you believe in fallen angels?

And you responded with the above answer... I did not ask you if you believed in 'fallen spirit beings' but fallen angels. I don't know where you came up with 'fallen spirit' beings. This sounds really 'fishy' to me.....

Do you believe in 'fallen angels'?

Greetings Archer,

I am very hesitant to call Satan, who is a spirit being, a fallen angel. In my studies of the doctrine of hell and Satan, I find much assumption based on much speculation, and poor translation that Satan is a fallen angel, but in all honesty I cannot say that I can concur with that conclusion. I know he is spirit, and our war is against spiritual wickedness in high places (Eph 6:11,12), and Scripture says that all things are created by God that are in heaven and earth, both visible and invisible, whether they be principalities or powers they are created by Him and for Him (Co 1:16).

Since there is spiritual wickedness, and principalities and powers in heaven, I am inclined to speak of Satan as simply spiritual wickedeness, and able to influence and control those under his power, or those who are not in Christ. I know that he had access to heaven and was cast out when Christ went to heaven to prepare a place for His people (Rev 12:7-11).

To answer your question, no, I don't believe that messengers of God; i.e. angels are fallen. Messengers of Satan are absolutely fallen.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
May 21st 2008, 01:48 AM
The Bible talks about 'heaven', 'the heavens'... etc...

What are we talking about here? Paul stated in the New Testament that there was a man who was 'caught up into the 3rd Heaven... By reading this, this man was in the third heaven.. and he was not allowed to speak of things he saw and heard there...it actually states that he was caught up into Paradise.... could that mean that there is a 1st heaven and a 2nd heaven? In the Book of Job you have the verbal intercourse between God and satan. Where did this take place? Was it in the 3rd heaven? Would this of taken place in the 2nd or 1st heaven if there is a place?

From my studies.. Paradise is that 3rd Heaven... You look at it in the Book of 2 Corinthians. It is the dwelling place of God Himself... its where those who die in Christ go to.. Its where Jesus the Christ Ascended to... It's where He came from before He put on flesh and became God in the flesh.. I don't believe any 'wickedness' abides here.

Now what we see with our naked eye.. the sun the stars.. the moon etc.... what we look thru with telescopes.... this is also considered the heavens. I personally believe this to be the 2nd heaven... I believe this is where those wicked principalities and powers, rulers of the darkness of this world, spiritual wickedness in 'high' places are located.. The word 'high' in the Greek means celestial... above the sky .. heavenly, high.

Are there any verses of Scripture to support the opinion that principalities and powers, rulers of darkness are or were located in this 2nd heaven, and not in heaven itself? The book of Job seems to indicate that Satan was able to be in the place where the Lord dwells.




Thru my studies I believe that Satan at the beginning was cast out of the 3rd heaven. This was after his insurrection and 'confession' to be like the Most High and leading many other angelic beings with him... 'the fall'... They are 'fallen' and have no chance at God's redemption.. They have seen His glory and were apart of it but they 'chose' to rebel. Their 'eternal' state is the Lake of Fire...THEY HAVE NO CHANCE AT REDEMPTION.... They were cast out of the 3rd Heaven and contained to the 1st and 2nd Heaven. But some didnt stop there.. It states that some 'left' their habitation or kept not their first estate... They actually came to this earth and tried to pro create with women. This was 'prior' to the 'flood'. These angels have been reserved in chains under darkness for the judgement of that Great day.

I too believe Satan was cast out of heaven (the abode of God), but Rev 12 indicates this casting out occured at the birth of the NT church. I also believe that Satan's messengers were cast out with him.

This Jude passage is another place where we need to discern whether angels refers to spirit beings, or human beings. The definition of 'habitation' here is a residence, to occupy a house. These messengers are compared to those destroyed in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha. Angels do not live in houses, and human beings were judged in Sodom and Gomorrha. Also, since angels neither marry, nor are given in marriage the implication is that they cannot procreate with human beings. Considering the whole context I believe this is again referring to the Godly line of Seth intermarrying with the ungodly of this world.

Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jude 1:6 And the angels [messengers] which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.



I also believe sometime in the future probably 'midway' thru Daniels 70th week ... Satan will also be expelled from the 1st and 2nd heaven. Cast down to the earth and not allowed to move freely. This happening and he 'knowing' he has but a short time he will take his vengeance on those on the earth. Over time since the beginning he has been 'expelled' in a timely fashion till it gets to a point to where he has no other place to go.

I find only one expulsion of Satan from heaven, and it appears to be at the beginning of the NT church. I agree that Satan has great wrath because he knows that his time is short, and in his great anger he persecutes the woman (church) and her seed (believers).



At the Second coming he will be bound and shackled and placed in the bottomless pit for 1000 years. Only to be loosed at the end of this and lead another rebellion against God and the Holy City.. then he will be dealt with and it will be his eternal state.. the Lake of Fire.. where the anti christ and false prophet are.

I believe that Satan was bound at the cross. He was bound in the sense that he can no longer deceive the nations as he did prior to Christ and His cross. Christ says, "I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it." What this means is that though Satan was able to keep the OT church in the wilderness from growing (a remnant) into a great multitude that no man can number, now that Christ has defeated Satan, Christ's Kingdom will be completed, and no power on heaven or earth will be able to stop it. Since I am amill I believe the 1000 years is symbolic for the fullness of time, and that we have been living in this symbolic time since the cross. In the fullness of time Christ will come again to redeem His bride, and Judge Satan, and all of his messengers.

Many Blessings,
RW

Reynolds357
May 21st 2008, 02:02 AM
can't get much pinpointier than that

Agreed, he ruled the Earth in its state of Chaos. IS.14:12-14, EZ.28:11-17

fewarechosen
May 21st 2008, 02:38 AM
satan fell from gods grace by his decision to leave god -god created him with a form of free will for god did not make him a slave, but his heart was always on evil and murder from the start which was his choice -hence always a murderer. satan still could move in the heavens like other angels at that time ( heavens is a whole other topic :).

satan was then cast down to earth after christ was in the desert for 40 days. hence christ saying i saw him fall like a lightning --18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

the first seal was christ coming the second seal is satan being cast down. now that satan is cast down he is the prince of this world and this is his reign here. Once satan was cast down he could no longer travel like other angels but is stuck here.

soon he will be bound for a thousand years, bound in the earth stripped of his power yet still here, then he will be let loose one last time then cast into gehenna.

If you get a good concordance it will show you the places in scripture where hell ment either shoul, gehenna, or hades. all different but translated as hell

Athanasius
May 21st 2008, 02:44 AM
satan was then cast down to earth after christ was in the desert for 40 days. hence christ saying i saw him fall like a lightning --18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.


I wonder what Satan-sin-was doing in the presence of God, in Heaven, for all that time:hmm: And what is meant when it is said Satan is like a roaming (or roaring?) lion (roaming the earth)?

fewarechosen
May 21st 2008, 02:51 AM
well all things are in gods presence yet he allows us to sin same as he allowed angels to sin yet still didnt wipe it out .

but once all this is run its course there will be a new heaven and a new earth and then there will be no sin in his presence.

i dont pretend to know gods motivation to allow sin other than its only a biproduct of him giving free will and choosing to let us choose wrong.

he is a roaring lion in that he is very powerfull here being prince of the world and hes enraged that he was cast down so he wages war with the church.

satan could travel to earth or however you want to say it before he was cast down just as gods other angels were sent to bring messages and such, its just that satan chose to do evil instead of good. but now that he is cast down hes just stuck here and even more mad.

Ekeak
May 21st 2008, 03:00 AM
Since all creation was viewed as good in Genesis 1:31, I'm going to assume that he fell some time just before the fall of humanity.

I've never thought of it that way before... God created the earth then satan fell? I always thought satan fell way before the earth was ever created. Funny... that insight is cool.

RogerW
May 22nd 2008, 04:21 PM
The question speaks for itself. So, how many times?

So, taking this discussion back to the op, after reading my other replies regarding who/what Satan is/is not, I refer back to the beginning of creation, where we read that God made everything, and everything God made was very good.

Ge 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Ge 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Did God create a very good spirit being, who personifies evil; i.e. a murderer, liar, and sinner from the beginning?

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Recall the passages that speak of things ordained from foundation of the world. The Father has prepared a kingdom from the foundation of the world.

Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

In the fullness of time those chosen in Him before the foundation of the world will be gathered together in Him, being holy and without blame.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him

By covenant the works of salvation were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Again by covenant Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world, and when Christ literally went to the cross the covenant was manifest (made known) to us.

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

By covenant Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Why was it necessary for Christ to make Himself an offering for sin before sin existed? Does it have something to do with the works of Satan?

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

According to 1Jo 3:8 sin is in the world, because Satan has been in the world from the beginning of time, and all who commit sin are of the devil. But praise be to God, for He sent His Son to destroy the works of the devil. Did Satan fall, or did God create him?

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Many tell us that the LORD did NOT create evil, because it (evil) could not be pronounced as something "very good." This makes sense according to human reasoning, however when I look at how this word 'evil' is defined I can't help but wonder if we have the proper understanding of this verse? This seems to say that God is the Author of all things, and all things, both good and evil, actions of both humans and spirits are under His sovereign control. It is God Who governs over His whole creation setting bounds or limits to all whether it be unto Satan to do evil, or His messengers to do good.

ra` rah
from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):-- adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease(-ure), distress, evil((- favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Incl. feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.).

7489 - ra`a` raw-ah'
a primitive root; properly, to spoil (literally, by breaking to pieces); figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing, i.e. bad (physically, socially or morally):--afflict, associate selves (by mistake for 7462), break (down, in pieces), + displease, (be, bring, do) evil (doer, entreat, man), show self friendly (by mistake for 7462), do harm, (do) hurt, (behave self, deal) ill, X indeed, do mischief, punish, still, vex, (do) wicked (doer, -ly), be (deal, do) worse.

Since God from the foundation of the world has dealt with the problem of sin, before sin existed, even before the creation of man, I'm inclined to ask why? Obviously God knew that Satan would tempt man, and man would succomb to temptation, thereby thrusting all humanity into sin, man, now born with a nature given wholly to sin and temptation. How does this fit into the question of the op?

Many Blessings,
RW

ARCHER42
May 23rd 2008, 03:17 AM
As I have shown, I believe when a person dies in unbelief (after the cross), he/she goes hades - the grave to await Judgment Day. But the person who dies in Christ goes in spirit immediately to be with the Lord (2Co 5:8). I don't believe the one dying in unbelief is conscience of his/her fate, but simply waiting in silence (Ps 115:17) for the fullness of time, when they will be bodily raised for the Judgment. That Lazarus and the rich depict awareness I believe is simply showing us the fate of all who die in unbelief, and once we go down into the grave in unbelief our fate is sealed forever, and judgment and eternal suffering will begin at the last day.

------------------------------------------------------------

So you believe that a 'believer' goes to be with the Lord when he/she dies... but the unbeliever goes into Hades unaware of their fate and isn't aware of where they are or the result of their unbelief? That almost sounds 'like ' soul sleep for the unbeliever which I'm not a believer in.

I believe the Lazarus/Rich man teaching by Jesus the Christ is literal.. its not a story or a representation.. its real... He spoke about Father Abraham... Abraham is not a representation or a fable or parable... Father Abraham is real.. He's as real as the five fingers on your hand... This teaching is literal...How subtle is the 'idea' to think its not.. Very subtle...

Sorry I dont believe that 'unbelievers' who arrive in Hades are not aware of their environement and are not aware of the fate of their unbelief and rejection of the Son of Man and His Gift of Eternal Life.. I also dont believe they just sit their in silence... in the dark.. Jesus spoke of Outer Darkness... that is not it. Thats something the human mind can not even begin to grasp...

I believe in a 'literal' Devil , his pre'fall angelic name was Lucifer... who was an annointed Cherub at one time... Created in perfection..sealed up the sum... full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.. He was the 'tops of the top's' in angelic ranking. At some time in the past he decided that he wanted to be 'like God'... He became 'prideful'. thought he could 'overthrow, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. He walked into the Throne Room of God and at his insurrection said he would exalt his throne above the throne of God.. he was going to be greater than God.

After his insurrection he was cast out of the 3rd heaven.. He now walks to and fro on the earth and is the god of this world. He moves freely between the 1st heaven and the 2nd heaven. He is the 'prince of the power of the air'. This is where his wicked principalities, and powers are set up and his kingdom throne is located for he is the god of this world.

In his insurrection he 'persuaded' many other angelic hosts to go with him.. to 'rebel' against God.. Therefore they are 'fallen'... pronounced judgement.. never to taste forgiveness or the Redeeming Work of Jesus the Christ. Destined to the Lake of Fire which is the Second Death. There are some of these 'fallen angels' already 'chained under darkness'.. in the deepest abyss... those that left their 1st habitation and tried to procreate with women... they are chained awaiting for the judgement of that Great Day..

I don't believe in 'spirit beings'... I know there are angelic host.. ministering spirits sent to the 'heirs' of salvation.. there angelic host that are 'fallen' those that are destined to the Lake of Fire with their father Satan.. and there are angelic host that are not fallen.. those that did not rebel against the Holy Trinity.. they serve God the Father and His Son...continually at their Will.. To me 'spirit beings' or placing Satan as a big blob of wickedness sounds very New Ageish... He's not a bunch of bad charma.. He's real and his mission is to decieve as many humans as possible..

Thanks be to Jesus the Christ who defeated Him thru His work on the Cross... He has the Keys to death hell and the grave... and He defeated the one who had the power over death. that is the devil.....

Satan's eternal destiny is already foretold.. in the Book of Revelation.. its the Lake of Fire along with those who choose to follow him and not accept and be guided by the Truth... The Lake of Fire was created or prepared for the devil and his angels. Man in his rebellion and rejection of the Authoritative Word of God and the Perfect and Complete Atoning Work of Jesus the Christ on the Cross will follow him there too.

NMKeith
May 23rd 2008, 03:25 AM
Sorry forgive me I did not read all four pages. I stopped at the first page. Very interesting thread going on here.

divaD
May 24th 2008, 01:21 AM
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than ANY BEAST OF THE FIELD which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?


Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every BEAST OF THE FIELD, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every BEAST OF THE FIELD; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.



I'm curious as to how others might interpret this. In Gen 3:1, we learn the serpent was more subtil than ANY BEAST OF THE FIELD which the LORD God had made.

In Gen 2:19 we learn that out of the ground the LORD God formed every BEAST OF THE FIELD.

In Gen 2:20 we learn that Adam gave names to every BEAST OF THE FIELD.

Does anyone see a connection here? Is there even a connection here to the serpent being one of the BEASTs OF THE FIELD which the LORD God had made? If so, then how can this be? Wasn't the serpent(satan) created even before Gen 1:1?

RogerW
May 25th 2008, 08:41 PM
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than ANY BEAST OF THE FIELD which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every BEAST OF THE FIELD, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every BEAST OF THE FIELD; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

I'm curious as to how others might interpret this. In Gen 3:1, we learn the serpent was more subtil than ANY BEAST OF THE FIELD which the LORD God had made.

In Gen 2:19 we learn that out of the ground the LORD God formed every BEAST OF THE FIELD.

In Gen 2:20 we learn that Adam gave names to every BEAST OF THE FIELD.

Does anyone see a connection here? Is there even a connection here to the serpent being one of the BEASTs OF THE FIELD which the LORD God had made? If so, then how can this be? Wasn't the serpent(satan) created even before Gen 1:1?

Greetings Diva,

This is another very interesting observation! :pp What makes you think that Satan was created before Gen 1:1?

Many Blessings,
RW

Naphal
May 25th 2008, 09:05 PM
Greetings Diva,

This is another very interesting observation! :pp What makes you think that Satan was created before Gen 1:1?

Many Blessings,
RW

The bible doesn't tell us when the Archangels (1 Thessalonians 4:16), Cherubim (Genesis 3:24), Chayim (Ezekiel 1:5), Zoon (Revelation 4:6), or Saraphims (Isaiah 6:2) were created. We either have to assume God made them after Gen 1:1 but didn't want to mention them nor include them with the other things God tells us were made or that they were made beforehand.

Brother Mark
May 25th 2008, 09:11 PM
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than ANY BEAST OF THE FIELD which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?


Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every BEAST OF THE FIELD, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every BEAST OF THE FIELD; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.



I'm curious as to how others might interpret this. In Gen 3:1, we learn the serpent was more subtil than ANY BEAST OF THE FIELD which the LORD God had made.

In Gen 2:19 we learn that out of the ground the LORD God formed every BEAST OF THE FIELD.

In Gen 2:20 we learn that Adam gave names to every BEAST OF THE FIELD.

Does anyone see a connection here? Is there even a connection here to the serpent being one of the BEASTs OF THE FIELD which the LORD God had made? If so, then how can this be? Wasn't the serpent(satan) created even before Gen 1:1?

Sometimes in scripture, God will give a duality. For instance, the king of tyre stuff wasn't just about the king of tyre. I agree that the serpent was pre garden. In this passage in genesis he wasn't saying that snakes are smarter than cows. Nor was he saying that Satan was smarter than cows. Look at this new testament verse.

1 Cor 15:32
32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me?
NASB

What wild beasts did Paul fight at Ephesus? What did he write about fighting in his book to the Ephesians?

RogerW
May 26th 2008, 02:03 PM
The bible doesn't tell us when the Archangels (1 Thessalonians 4:16), Cherubim (Genesis 3:24), Chayim (Ezekiel 1:5), Zoon (Revelation 4:6), or Saraphims (Isaiah 6:2) were created. We either have to assume God made them after Gen 1:1 but didn't want to mention them nor include them with the other things God tells us were made or that they were made beforehand.

If they are hosts of heaven(s) they were created in the beginning along with everything else that God created in the beginning.

Ge 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Ge 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Ne 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Many Blessings,
RW

divaD
May 26th 2008, 05:17 PM
Would anyone be able to show me the diffence between 'made' and 'created' when referring to God and creation. Is it the same thing, or is there a difference? I understand that 'form' is different from 'create', because God had to create something first in order to form it. In the beginning God created the earth, and from that earth He created, He formed man out of the dust of the ground.

The reason I ask the above is, supporters of the gap claim that Ex 20:11 works in their favor and not against. Had it stated...For in six days the LORD (created) heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh
day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it...according to the gap supporters, this would be proof that there was no gap, had it stated 'created' instead of 'made'.

Naphal
May 26th 2008, 07:51 PM
If they are hosts of heaven(s) they were created in the beginning along with everything else that God created in the beginning.

Ge 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Ge 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Ne 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Many Blessings,
RW

Certainly there are times when the "host" of heaven speaks of angels but not everytime:


Deuteronomy 4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
Deuteronomy 4:17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
Deuteronomy 4:18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Deuteronomy 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

Same here.

Deuteronomy 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;



Here it is what man can see with his natural eye and possibly begin to worship which is the subject and that means the stars and planets and etc as the "host of heaven".


Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Here is a summation of all that was done in the first chapter and I believe it is concerning everything that was stated, a quite detailed list and very organized. No mention of the angelic being created and I believe that is because they were created before the universe was.

Levi bar HaNatsari
May 26th 2008, 11:25 PM
[quote=Naphal;1643828]. Since Satan was the serpent in the garden and that is already a negative stereotyped animal and was tempting Adam and Eve to disobey God, I believe that shows he was already in a fallen state before they fell.

I'm sorry to be writing on this already long thread, and i haven't read through all 5 pages, but I saw some things on the first page that I thought needed commenting.
If it is possible, please tell me, where Scripture states that the serpent was Satan. Please note, Shetan, the Hebrew transliteration, means nothing more than Adversary. We remember when the Messiah spoke to Kefa(peter) calling him Shetan, because Kefa tempted Him to not take the cup of suffering.
Plus we must remember the serpent was cursed to forever crawl uponhis belly, thus he must've been able to walk at one point, so it was not at that time "already a negative stereotyped animal".





The consequences of his fall was a name change and a loss of that position in heaven as well as a death sentence.



Where does this "name change" take place, please. In Yeshayahu(Isaiah)14:12 where the "name" Lucifer is used, we must consider from where this name took origin, namely latin the roman language of early paganism. Hoshea 2:17 And I(Elohim) shall remove the name of the Ba'al's(false gods) from her(Israel-Messianic believers)mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their names.
Hel'el is the Hebrew transliteration here, and it was his name before the fall and it will be his name until his final death at the end of the millenia. Hel'el- the bright one of El(god), this falls logically in place with Micha'el-Who is like El and with Gabri'el-strong man of El.

RogerW
May 26th 2008, 11:28 PM
Certainly there are times when the "host" of heaven speaks of angels but not everytime:

Deuteronomy 4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
Deuteronomy 4:17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
Deuteronomy 4:18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Deuteronomy 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

Same here.

Deuteronomy 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

Here it is what man can see with his natural eye and possibly begin to worship which is the subject and that means the stars and planets and etc as the "host of heaven".

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Here is a summation of all that was done in the first chapter and I believe it is concerning everything that was stated, a quite detailed list and very organized. No mention of the angelic being created and I believe that is because they were created before the universe was.

I agree it is very interesting that there is no mention of God creating the angelic hosts. And it is true that Scripture sometimes refers to the sun, moon, stars etc. as the host of heaven. Baal worshippers commonly worshipped these host. However, we cannot deny that host of heaven also refers to 'something' that dwells in heaven standing on the LORD'S right and left, worshipping Him. You may believe that this host of heaven was made before God created ALL things, but do you have any biblical support for your opinion?

Ne 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Since Scipture plainly states ALL things in heaven and earth were created in the beginning when God created both heaven and earth in six days, what makes you believe that angels were created before creation of ALL things in heaven and on earth, and in the sea? Do you have any biblical validation for this?

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
May 26th 2008, 11:40 PM
Would anyone be able to show me the diffence between 'made' and 'created' when referring to God and creation. Is it the same thing, or is there a difference? I understand that 'form' is different from 'create', because God had to create something first in order to form it. In the beginning God created the earth, and from that earth He created, He formed man out of the dust of the ground.

The reason I ask the above is, supporters of the gap claim that Ex 20:11 works in their favor and not against. Had it stated...For in six days the LORD (created) heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh
day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it...according to the gap supporters, this would be proof that there was no gap, had it stated 'created' instead of 'made'.

How would they reconcile a verse that states both 'created' and 'made' with this theory?

Ge 2:4 ¶ These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Blessings,
RW

Naphal
May 27th 2008, 01:57 AM
If it is possible, please tell me, where Scripture states that the serpent was Satan.

We are told that in Revelations:


Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,




Please note, Shetan, the Hebrew transliteration, means nothing more than Adversary.

Yes but there is a certain being whom is the greatest adversary, known by many names and titles but one is "Satan", the old serpent.


7854
07854 satan {saw-tawn'}
from 07853; TWOT - 2252a; n m
AV - Satan 19, adversary 7, withstand 1; 27
1) adversary, one who withstands
1a) adversary (in general - personal or national)
2) superhuman adversary
2a) Satan (as noun pr)




We remember when the Messiah spoke to Kefa(peter) calling him Shetan, because Kefa tempted Him to not take the cup of suffering.

Petros (Peter) was called Satan because he was being an adversary but it also was probably because Satan had "entered" him in the same way he had Judas and influenced his actions.




Plus we must remember the serpent was cursed to forever crawl uponhis belly, thus he must've been able to walk at one point, so it was not at that time "already a negative stereotyped animal".

No, it had nothing to do with a literal snake literally walking around. It was all symbology. The symbol of a snake was used to denote Satan's sneakiness and deception, as well as danger.


Where does this "name change" take place, please. In Yeshayahu(Isaiah)14:12 where the "name" Lucifer is used, we must consider from where this name took origin, namely latin the roman language of early paganism.


The angelic being called Satan used to be called Lucifer, Heylel in the hebrew.

Naphal
May 27th 2008, 02:02 AM
You may believe that this host of heaven was made before God created ALL things, but do you have any biblical support for your opinion?

Neither position has proof, just hints and circumstantial evidences. It's a matter of personal belief.






Ne 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Since Scipture plainly states ALL things in heaven and earth were created in the beginning when God created both heaven and earth in six days, what makes you believe that angels were created before creation of ALL things in heaven and on earth, and in the sea?



No scripture says "all things" were created when God created the heaven and the Earth and the "hosts" (all other parts of the universe) of them. You simply and plainly believe "hosts" in Genesis includes all angelic beings and creatures while I do not.

Burning one
Jun 5th 2008, 07:56 PM
Peace to all in Messiah's Name,


i just stumbled across this place today - after doing some studies recently brought on from personal reading of the texts of Scripture, i had to go searching to see if i was alone in my understanding.

haSatan has fallen ONCE - at the moment of his rebellion/attempted usurping of the Holy One's throne of worship.

i would think it is staring us in the face in the book of Genesis 3. if all was good (1:31), then there could have been no antagonistic presence existing in opposition to the Holy One's ways before we are told that sin entered the world.

staying solely within the clearly-presented passages of Scripture, here's my reason why:

the Holy One made man (2:7).

AFTER this, the Holy One made a garden where the man He made was placed (2:8).

Satan, a perfect being at the time, was placed in the garden as well (Ezekiel 28:12-14). although some might contest the application of the covering keruv as being the entity known as Helel / Satan, i personally think the evidence of the imagery presented is sufficient to make the match.

this being the case, man was made, then a garden, and then a perfect Satan was placed in that garden.

chronologically, therefore, man was in existence while Satan had yet rebelled.

he told a manipulative lie to the woman (Genesis 3:1-5), and in doing so made man decide his instructions were more worthy of following than the instructions of the Holy One.

simply put, this is the attempted rebellion / usurping of the throne of the Creator. he deceivedly stole the image-bearers of the Creator to worship him (apply worth to) instead.

Satan's curse for his lie was to go about on his belly, and eat the dust of the earth (3:14).

turning back to Ezekiel 28, we find that the keruv mentioned there sinned in regards to his "trading"/"trafficking"/"commerce"/"merchandise" (v. 16 & 18) - and for that was thrust down. a play on words or perhaps even a bad translation into English might be the key to unlocking this: the word is rekulah, and can also mean "tale-bearering/slander/lie." in this respect, the keruv sinned in regard to unrighteous tale-bearing, or lying. this would correspond to the deceptive lie the serpent spoke to the woman in the garden.

a further aspect of this passage also tells us that the keruv was "turned" to "ashes upon the earth," and yet the Hebrew could just as easily, at least from my opinion, be translated as "given," being the word natan. the word for "ashes" is the exact same word for "dust" that is used back in the curse in the garden, only the niqqudot (vowel-points) in the Hebrew are different, and the validity of those are up for argument, anyway.

so perhaps the keruv was given to the dust of the earth, due to the unrighteousness of his tale-bearing? this would seem to fit the description of the serpent's lie and subsequent punishment as is depicted in the garden.

as for the imagery presented in Revelation 12, that i am not sure about according to the timing of the events. it seems to be geared to a time of extreme persecution and difficulty for Yisra'El and all who follow her Messiah, but i do not think that has taken place as of yet, and so the casting-down of Satan that is mentioned there is probably a future event. he rebelled once and gained a world, which allowed him access to the Presence of the Holy One as representative, but at some point the Holy One will deny Him representative-rights, and he will be barred from accusing further. so i think that there is a difference between Satan's original fall in regards to rebellion and his being cast out from heaven in the book of Revelation.

any thoughts or insights would be appreciated! like i said, i was reading personally in the Hebrew and saw the similarity of words and the possible differences of translation, as well as the chronology, and things really started making more sense than ever before. so i wanted to check and see what other believers held concerning this.


Chayim b'Moshiach (Life in Messiah)

divaD
Jun 5th 2008, 10:09 PM
as for the imagery presented in Revelation 12, that i am not sure about according to the timing of the events. it seems to be
geared to a time of extreme persecution and difficulty for Yisra'El and all who follow her Messiah, but i do not think that has
taken place as of yet, and so the casting-down of Satan that is mentioned there is probably a future event. he rebelled once
and gained a world, which allowed him access to the Presence of the Holy One as representative, but at some point the Holy
One will deny Him representative-rights, and he will be barred from accusing further. so i think that there is a difference
between Satan's original fall in regards to rebellion and his being cast out from heaven in the book of Revelation.


Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


I tend to agree with you that the above hasn't happened yet, or if it has already occured, it had to have occurred after Christ's death and ressurrection. How can I be so certain?

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him

It states "which deceiveth the whole world". It would be kind of hard to deceive the whole world if this occured before there were a whole world to deceive. That fact alone tells me that this didn't occur before man was made.


And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb

Kind of hard to overcome him by the blood of the Lamb if this casting out occured before Christ shed His blood.

These are just 2 of many reasons that I believe as I do concerning the above verses.

RoadWarrior
Jun 5th 2008, 10:39 PM
It is a bit difficult to be strictly chronological about events that are told to us in prophetic language/literature. Prophesy (and parables) are not necessarily in chronological order, but given in symbolism deliberately to hide truth from enemies of Christ.

To those who belong to Christ, and who "need to know," the understanding is given. Jesus often spoke in parables to the multitudes, but explained things privately to His inner circle of disciples. While they still "did not get it" always, yet after His crucifixion, resurrection and ascension, they did understand.

Burning one
Jun 6th 2008, 01:58 PM
Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


I tend to agree with you that the above hasn't happened yet, or if it has already occured, it had to have occurred after Christ's death and ressurrection. How can I be so certain?

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him

It states "which deceiveth the whole world". It would be kind of hard to deceive the whole world if this occured before there were a whole world to deceive. That fact alone tells me that this didn't occur before man was made.


And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb

Kind of hard to overcome him by the blood of the Lamb if this casting out occured before Christ shed His blood.

These are just 2 of many reasons that I believe as I do concerning the above verses.


Peace to you,

those are indeed great reasons to believe as such! thanks for responding.


Chayim b'Moshiach (Life in Messiah)

Burning one
Jun 6th 2008, 02:08 PM
It is a bit difficult to be strictly chronological about events that are told to us in prophetic language/literature. Prophesy (and parables) are not necessarily in chronological order, but given in symbolism deliberately to hide truth from enemies of Christ.

To those who belong to Christ, and who "need to know," the understanding is given. Jesus often spoke in parables to the multitudes, but explained things privately to His inner circle of disciples. While they still "did not get it" always, yet after His crucifixion, resurrection and ascension, they did understand.


Peace to you,

it does require careful attention to detail (i suppose this could be said of ALL our Father's Word), and as such, i would separate parable from prophecy in that parables are always listed as such, are they not? this is for our benefit in order that we apply them in a manner that seeks to illuminate their teaching-purpose, whereas prophecy, although at times symbolic in imagery, is geared to a revelation of reality or the state of things, be it future or an immediate word from our Holy One.

of course, we do the best we can with what is presented in the texts, but personally i attempt to keep in mind if the text is being taken as a literal event by the surrounding context, or is using imagery that is obviously meant to be taken as symbolic.

and thankfully, we have the Spirit of truth to help lead us into truth, meaning it is a process, but one we can trust will show us what we need to know *when* we need to know it. the hard part is not jumping ahead of the guidances of the Spirit and settling on the knowledge of man. herein is patience and the willingness to yield our own faulty understandings to Yah's precious truths!


Chayim b'Moshiach (Life in Messiah)

RoadWarrior
Jun 6th 2008, 03:18 PM
Peace to you,

it does require careful attention to detail (i suppose this could be said of ALL our Father's Word), and as such, i would separate parable from prophecy in that parables are always listed as such, are they not? this is for our benefit in order that we apply them in a manner that seeks to illuminate their teaching-purpose, whereas prophecy, although at times symbolic in imagery, is geared to a revelation of reality or the state of things, be it future or an immediate word from our Holy One.

of course, we do the best we can with what is presented in the texts, but personally i attempt to keep in mind if the text is being taken as a literal event by the surrounding context, or is using imagery that is obviously meant to be taken as symbolic.

and thankfully, we have the Spirit of truth to help lead us into truth, meaning it is a process, but one we can trust will show us what we need to know *when* we need to know it. the hard part is not jumping ahead of the guidances of the Spirit and settling on the knowledge of man. herein is patience and the willingness to yield our own faulty understandings to Yah's precious truths!


Chayim b'Moshiach (Life in Messiah)

You said a lot of good things here, I won't respond to them all, but toss out a few thoughts of my own.

You do well to pay attention to the surrounding context, I also work hard at that as well. Also, I have been building my knowledge of the background of the times, the history of the occasion in which the book was written. It provides a nice lense for viewing the mysterious bits. I have been told that John wrote Revelation in a time when the persecuted Christians needed to be encouraged, and needed to be told who the enemy was, without it being a red flag to that enemy - the persecuting Roman government. The symbolism therefore hides, but also reveals. Parables do the same thing.

The Romans were the immediate enemy, but Revelation helped the people to know what was going on "behind the scenes" - the spiritual reality behind the horrible persecutions.

IMO, the various stories and small bits in the Bible that give us a glimpse of who Satan is, what happened to him, what will happen to him - are difficult to pinpoint chronologically into human history. It just isn't clearly told to us, the date and time of it, nor the expanse and duration of it. Of course, being human, we love to speculate and try to figure it out!

Like those Christians of John's day, we also need to understand who the enemy is, how to protect ourselves in the battle, and how to fight in order to win. We know that the battle is the Lord's, but we also realize that we play a part. How we act matters. And we need all the knowledge and understanding that we can get, to be fully armed for the fight. We engage in warfare every day, whether or not we realize it.

Burning one
Jun 6th 2008, 03:50 PM
Peace to you,


having a historical grasp of the events recorded in Scripture is, i would say, a fundamental thing. much has been misunderstood because of a lack of such understanding.

we are in a struggle each day in matters both physical and spiritual. the fight IS against the spiritual powers in place, yet the battle is played out daily in the flesh and mind to over come their influences.

i am reminded of Dani'El, whose prayer was answered the day he spoke it, yet was delayed due to the opposing spiritual realm. what prayers and petitions of our own may have already been answered but are in the process of reaching us? the Holy One is faithful no matter the issue!


Chayim b'Moshiach (Life in Messiah)

RoadWarrior
Jun 6th 2008, 03:57 PM
...
we are in a struggle each day in matters both physical and spiritual. the fight IS against the spiritual powers in place, yet the battle is played out daily in the flesh and mind to over come their influences.

i am reminded of Dani'El, whose prayer was answered the day he spoke it, yet was delayed due to the opposing spiritual realm. what prayers and petitions of our own may have already been answered but are in the process of reaching us? the Holy One is faithful no matter the issue!


Chayim b'Moshiach (Life in Messiah)

Excellent point! Daniel never stopped his prayer, he didn't give up, he kept fasting and praying until the answer reached him. He could not know at that time, what was going on in the spiritual realm.

And yes, the battle that we fight is daily in our mind and our flesh. There seem to be a few different threads on the board right now that are discussion this same issue in different ways.

May the Lord help us all to grow in truth and knowledge of Him!

ThMavrik
Jun 6th 2008, 04:11 PM
How many times did satan fall?
The question speaks for itself. So, how many times?

My answer is zero. The popular belief is that he fell from heavenly abode. Is this truly what the Scriptures teach? I think not. Here is a possible interpretation:

Isaiah 14:13–14.

Note the six things this man King Nebuchadnezzar said that he was going to do.

1. “For thou hast said in thine heart.” Verse 13—Proving that he was a man here on the earth.

2. “I will ascend into heaven” Verse 13.

a. Showing that he was not in heaven.

b. Meaning—I will get the empire of the whole world.

c. This represents the thoughts of the Babylonian Monarch more than his actual words.

d. The Babylonian inscriptions are full of boasting egotism.

3. “I will exalt my throne above the stars of God” Verse 13

a. Meaning—above the Israelites, who are termed the stars of God. Psa. 148:3, Jude 13, Dan. 8:10, Rev. 12:1.

b. This chapter speaks not of the ambition and fall of Satan, but of the pride, arrogance, and fall of Nebuchadnezzar.

c. The King regards himself as in a certain sense Divine, but still he entertains a deep respect and reverence for those gods whom he regards as the most exalted—Namely, Merodach, Bel, Nebo, Sin, Shamash.

d. He is their worshiper, their devotee, their suppliant (petitioner, go between).

1—Merodach—Jer. 50:2, identical with the famous Babylonian Bel, or Belus.

2—Bel—The Chief God of Babylon, Isa. 46:1, and Jer. 50:2, 51:44, Meaning Baal.

3—Nebo—Which occurs both in Isaiah 46:1 and Jer. 48:1, as the name of a Chaldean god, is a well known deity of the Babylonians and Assyrians.

a. He was the god who presided over learning and letters.

b. His general character corresponds to that of the Egyptian “Thoth,” the Greek “Hermes,” and the Latin “Mercury.”

c. He was the tutelar, meaning having the position of protector, guardian watching over a particular person, place or thing.

d. He was the god of the most important Babylonian Kings.

4—Sin—The stronghold of Egypt. A strong city of Egypt, on the East coast of the Mediterranean Sea.

a. A City of Egypt. Mentioned only by Ezekiel, Ezek. 30:15–16.

5—Shamash—The Sun God of Babylonians, and Assyrian Mythology. He makes crops grow and protects against illness.

4. “I will sit on the Mount of the Congregation” Verse 13.

1—Meaning—The Mount of the Divine presence—Ex. 25:22, and Ex. 29:42–43, Where God appoints the place of meeting with Moses, and promises to meet with him before the Ark to Commune with him, meet him, and to meet the Children of Israel at the door of the Tabernacle.

2—To the Babylonians in this passage was a Mount above the heights of the clouds, and above the stars of God.

3—The mystic Mountain belonging to the Babylonian system of philosophy, or religion that claims to have special insight into the divine nature through spiritual self-development.

4—It is described as the mighty mountain of Bel whose head rivals heaven.

5. “I will ascend above the heights of the Clouds” Verse 14.

1—This further shows this one talking still to be here on earth.

6. “I will be like the most high” Verse 14.

1—The Babylonian Monarchs (rulers, Kings) thought of themselves as Gods, worked their own wills, were wrapped up in themselves and did not in heart bow down to higher power.