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ARCHER42
May 19th 2008, 07:16 PM
Because thou has kept the Word of My Patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Revelation 3:10

I would like to hear what your opinions are on this piece of Scripture. This is a message to the church at Philadelphia. What are your thoughts on

1.'what the hour of temptation" actually is

2. how is Jesus "keeping" those from the hour of temptation.. those who have kept the Word of His Patience.

3. who are those who are being, 'tried' that dwell on the earth.
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Thanks for your repsonses and remember to Please keep this discussion civil.. I'd like to hear your thoughts..

Scubadude
May 19th 2008, 08:44 PM
Because thou has kept the Word of My Patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Revelation 3:10

I would like to hear what your opinions are on this piece of Scripture. This is a message to the church at Philadelphia. What are your thoughts on

1.'what the hour of temptation" actually is

2. how is Jesus "keeping" those from the hour of temptation.. those who have kept the Word of His Patience.

3. who are those who are being, 'tried' that dwell on the earth.
------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your repsonses and remember to Please keep this discussion civil.. I'd like to hear your thoughts..


My NIV translates 'the hour of temptation' as 'the hour of trial'. Either way, it's saying He will protect the Church at Philadelphia from something that is coming in the future. I think it is the tribulation period.

As far as how they will be kept from the hour of temptation, I don't have an opinion. Well, I might have one, but sometimes I need to hear others thoughts before I know what I think.

I think this passage suggest that the other churches will have to struggle through the hour of temptation. It would be consistent with many other examples then God has required his people to suffer before they would enter His rest.

As far as keeping things civil, I will do my best. I can only promise that I will be open to hearing when I am not (sometimes it's hard to hear what I'm saying until someone else says it back. :cry:)

timmyb
May 19th 2008, 09:07 PM
he didn't keep the church in Phildelphia from the tribulation by taking them out of the earth... it has to mean something other than rapture... meaning supernatural protection and vindication from the Lord from their enemies who would see their destruction... I am post trib so this is my view.... The Church will have to suffer before they enter into glory... there is an example of Christ that the church will have to endure suffering and persecution and tribulation before they enter into full maturity and the glory of God..

ARCHER42
May 19th 2008, 09:48 PM
could the hour of temptation or hour of trial be Daniel's 70th week? or as theologians put the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation?

so we as Christiains will have to endure the 'wrath' of God plus all the suffereing and persecution and plus we'll have the wrath of the beast and his system to deal with. Is that what your saying by the 'church' having to suffer during this time? What about the Cross.. didn't Jesus 'bear' the wrath His children were suppose to have? Wasnt he a Provision or Substitute? ..

who are all these people that are 'tried' on the earth. does this include the Church.. for He said He would 'keep' thee from this hour of trial..

tgallison
May 19th 2008, 10:26 PM
could the hour of temptation or hour of trial be Daniel's 70th week? or as theologians put the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation?

so we as Christiains will have to endure the 'wrath' of God plus all the suffereing and persecution and plus we'll have the wrath of the beast and his system to deal with. Is that what your saying by the 'church' having to suffer during this time? What about the Cross.. didn't Jesus 'bear' the wrath His children were suppose to have? Wasnt he a Provision or Substitute? ..

who are all these people that are 'tried' on the earth. does this include the Church.. for He said He would 'keep' thee from this hour of trial..

We are appointed unto tribulation.

John 16:33 "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

Acts 14:22 "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."

Romans 5:3, 2 Corinthians 7:4, 1 Thessalonians 3:4

But we are not appointed unto wrath.

Romans 5:9 "Much morre then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

ARCHER42
May 19th 2008, 10:59 PM
We are appointed unto tribulation.

John 16:33 "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

Acts 14:22 "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."

Romans 5:3, 2 Corinthians 7:4, 1 Thessalonians 3:4

But we are not appointed unto wrath.

Romans 5:9 "Much morre then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

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I agree with this statement.. we are appointed to tribulation and not wrath. Triblulation and affliction is what 'refines' the believer.

So if some believe the hour of temptation is Daniels 70th week set in motion to 'try' those that dwell on the earth. We know that 'God's' wrath is poured out in these times also ..so...... if a 'beleiver' is not appointed to wrath and they are 'kept'... from this.. or as the Scripture points out.. 'kept from the hour of temptation'.... where is this place the believer is 'kept'?

There are some who may say that the 'believer' will even have to endure and take God's wrath during this time. To me this is 'double jeopardy'..... God sent His Son who took that provisioinal wrath on the Cross. If that's the case then His work on Calvary was in vain for His children. we know His work is not in vain..

We are delivered from wrath as posted by TGAllison..

For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the livng and true God.

And to wait for His Son from Heaven, whom He raised for the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10

ARCHER42
May 21st 2008, 03:55 AM
Just Bumping This Thread...

vinsight4u8
May 21st 2008, 04:14 AM
God will keep us from some wrath, not all. The church is appointed to any time of wrath that comes before salvation.

See how in Rev. 12 Satan is accusing the brethren in heaven and then cast down to them on the earth?

I Thessalonians 1:10 refers to we are not appointed to wrath/
but don't do as some and try to slide the word "all" into the verse

Skip on down to 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and see that God has not appointed us to wrath but salvation.
/So putting that with Rev. 12 as to Satan is cast down to the brethren before salvation comes...makes the church on the earth till the tribulation time under the beast man is over.

There are some very simple ways to know where to place the coming of Jesus for His church.

Rev. 22:12 - reward
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward {is} with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

Jesus is coming back when it is reward time!

So when is that?
Reward time is only announced as to start at the 7th trumpet.

Rev. 11:15
"And the seventh angel sounded...."v18 "...thy wrath is come, and...that thou shouldest give reward..."

See God's wrath doesn't begin till the 7th trumpet?
God has it that the nations are to blame.

v 18
"And the nations were angry..."

ARCHER42
May 21st 2008, 04:34 AM
Will God pour out His wrath on one of His children who He see's clothed in the Perfect Righteousness of His Son and His perfect completed atoning Work at Calvary? What was the Cross there for then? Isnt this Double Jeopardy? Your not guilty .. but then your guilty.... I don't agree with this...

vinsight4u8
May 21st 2008, 04:42 AM
Will God pour out His wrath on one of His children who He see's clothed in the Perfect Righteousness of His Son and His perfect completed atoning Work at Calvary? What was the Cross there for then? Isnt this Double Jeopardy? Your not guilty .. but then your guilty.... I don't agree with this...

The church will not be on the earth for the time of God's wrath.
Look at Rev. 15:1 and what plagues are written to come last?

Well, now what gets reaped by the one like the Son of man on a white cloud in ch 14?
time of the harvest
rapture of the church

vinsight4u8
May 21st 2008, 04:47 AM
When the two witnesses rise at the 7th trumpet (third woe) great earthquake hour....is when the time of the rapture should be placed on the timeline of events of the end.

Did you read Rev. 11:18?
Many events are to take place once the 7th trumpet gets going.

time to judge the dead

Okay, what did Paul tell us?

2Timothy 4:1
"...the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing..."

So - Jesus must appear at the 7th trumpet!

vinsight4u8
May 21st 2008, 04:51 AM
Place your idea that the great tribulation time is God's wrath into Rev. 11:18.
BUT
1. Why did the 24 elders lay the blame on the nations?

2. Will God destroy Himself?
Yikes!!!!
He is told to destroy them which destroy the earth. So if God is to blame for the wrath during the first six trumpets - look out God - will be destroying Himself!

vinsight4u8
May 21st 2008, 04:55 AM
Check back tomorrow...

Rev. 12 shows that Satan will be cast to the earth and he has great wrath.
Verse 17 reveals that this dragon will go after those that have the testimony of Jesus Christ and keep His commandments.

(the church people)

ARCHER42
May 21st 2008, 06:12 PM
Because thou has kept the Word of My Patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Revelation 3:10

-------------------------------------------------------------

fact: there were believers at the Church of Phildelphia....
fact: they had 'kept the Word of His patience'.

These believers at that time had obviosly 'kept something', 'kept' in this postition is an an active verb.. what did they keep? 'the Word of His Patience'. they believed in something even though they 'were not in the majority' even though they were being persecuted for their 'beliefs'. These people were enduring.. cheerful during these times.. longsuffering. They were in continual waiting and watching for something. They "kept the Word of His patience" in their hearts and they were worshipping God in Spirit and in Truth.
-----------------------------------------------------------

if you go to the next part read what Jesus the Christ's words are to them...

... I also 'will' keep thee from the hour of temptation'

That word 'will' in the Greek is #1014... which is translated 'be willing', be diposed to do it, intend, of His own will.. it can be compared to the Greek word #2309 which means be willingly, desire , delight in, be disposed.

The word 'keep' is #5083 in the Greek... this word is translated to mean to 'guard' , to 'watch' 'to preserve', 'hold fast' 'to keep', to 'detain'... guard close.

Jesus later said the 'hour of temptation'.. will come upon all those that dwell on the earth.. to 'try' them.

----------------------------------------------------------
so

Fact: The "hour of temptation"--- is a time period which shall come upon 'them' (people) that dwell on the earth' Those will be 'tested' or 'tryed'.
Fact: Its Jesus the Christ's 'desire' , 'He 's disposed', it's His delight, His will to 'keep' thee from the 'hour of temptation which shall come all those that 'dwell' on the earth. to try them. Those He 'keeps' are those who have 'kept the Word of His patience'......

The question arises... If 'those' who He keeps are amongst those that dwell on the Earth and are undergoing God's wrath and the wrath of the Beast and antichrist... then He wouldn't be 'keeping' those at all. He wouldnt be preserving those or holding fast to those He is 'keeping'. They would be actively participating in the Hour of Temptation... His promise is that He will 'keep thee from 'it'....

vinsight4u8
May 22nd 2008, 10:02 PM
Rev. 3:10 compare to:
John 17:15
"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

out of - as in from (ek)

keep


The tribulation time is not the wrath of God...people will be fleeing from the face of Satan.

Rev. 12
Woe
for the devil is come down
having great wrath
hath a short time

v14
"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness...from the face of the serpent.'


Look at Whose face shows up in the 6th seal though?
Things take a big turnaround then!


6th seal - the heaven prophecy of Job takes place
Job 14:12,14
man riseth not till the heavens be no more
Job told us that he was waiting for his change.
at the appointed time

1 Cor 15:51-54
last trump
for the trumpet shall sound
we shall all be changed
death is swallowed up in victory
...as in no more nice people for God ever die again!
No one else going to or left in the grave will ever have victory.



the heaven departed

RogerW
May 22nd 2008, 10:51 PM
Because thou has kept the Word of My Patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Revelation 3:10

-------------------------------------------------------------

fact: there were believers at the Church of Phildelphia....
fact: they had 'kept the Word of His patience'.

These believers at that time had obviosly 'kept something', 'kept' in this postition is an an active verb.. what did they keep? 'the Word of His Patience'. they believed in something even though they 'were not in the majority' even though they were being persecuted for their 'beliefs'. These people were enduring.. cheerful during these times.. longsuffering. They were in continual waiting and watching for something. They "kept the Word of His patience" in their hearts and they were worshipping God in Spirit and in Truth.
-----------------------------------------------------------

if you go to the next part read what Jesus the Christ's words are to them...

... I also 'will' keep thee from the hour of temptation'

That word 'will' in the Greek is #1014... which is translated 'be willing', be diposed to do it, intend, of His own will.. it can be compared to the Greek word #2309 which means be willingly, desire , delight in, be disposed.

The word 'keep' is #5083 in the Greek... this word is translated to mean to 'guard' , to 'watch' 'to preserve', 'hold fast' 'to keep', to 'detain'... guard close.

Jesus later said the 'hour of temptation'.. will come upon all those that dwell on the earth.. to 'try' them.

----------------------------------------------------------
so

Fact: The "hour of temptation"--- is a time period which shall come upon 'them' (people) that dwell on the earth' Those will be 'tested' or 'tryed'.
Fact: Its Jesus the Christ's 'desire' , 'He 's disposed', it's His delight, His will to 'keep' thee from the 'hour of temptation which shall come all those that 'dwell' on the earth. to try them. Those He 'keeps' are those who have 'kept the Word of His patience'......

The question arises... If 'those' who He keeps are amongst those that dwell on the Earth and are undergoing God's wrath and the wrath of the Beast and antichrist... then He wouldn't be 'keeping' those at all. He wouldnt be preserving those or holding fast to those He is 'keeping'. They would be actively participating in the Hour of Temptation... His promise is that He will 'keep thee from 'it'....

Greetings Archer,

He that endures to the end shall be saved. How shall we endure to the end, when all these trials come upon us? Only by grace through the faith of Christ keeping us in the power of the Holy Spirit. Hope the following passages of Scripture prove beneficial.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

JFB Commentary: "The temptation brings out the fidelity of those kept by Christ and hardens the unbelieving reprobates (Re 9:20; 16:11,21)."

Da 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Many Blessings,
RW