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BibleGirl02
May 20th 2008, 07:37 AM
The Bible seems to teach that baptism saves us. However, I do not believe this is so. Unfortunately, I am still confused by some Bible verses. How do you explain these Bible verses?

1Pe 3:21 ESV Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Act 2:38 ESV And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Joh 3:5 ESV Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Act 22:16 ESV And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'

1Pe 3:21 ESV Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Please explain these verses. I don't understand how we are saved by faith alone when verses like these seem to imply that baptism saves us. Then there is also one other verse that seems to imply that we are not saved by faith alone:

Jas 2:24 ESV You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Help! :confused:help:

jmj
May 20th 2008, 10:05 AM
Hi :)

Baptism is part of what saves us- it's to do with repentence, turning away and starting our lives anew. When we become Christians and accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, the Holy Spirit enters us, which is what Christ promised when he ascended into heaven as a deposit of our salvation- the Baptism of the Spirit. The baptism John the Baptist gave- ie being baptised with water- is what Peter is reffering to in the first Acts reference.

I do not believe is neccesary for salvation but it is an outward symbol of the Baptism of the Spirit that has happened inwardly. Inward baptism by the Spirit is the sign we have from Christ that our sins have been washed awy by Jesus' blood on the Cross- which is what the second quote from Acts seem to reference.

We are saved by faith alone- but we have to do something about this. Part of accepting Jesus' message is turning away from our old lives- we need to 'repent and believe', as He instructed us so many times.

This is what I think James is referring to- I think this verse must be looked at in context. The whole of the letter of James is talking about how we can't simply believe and not do anything about in response- we have to live our lives in repentance, serving God and living for him. He uses a good analogy in the previous chapter- James 1:22-24 to explain his point, that accepting Jesus as our Saviour and not living it out in our lives is like seeing what we look like in a mirror, seeing the truth, and then forgetting about our reflection, what the truth is as soon as we look away and we revert back to our old ways.

Hope that helps.

MidnightsPaleGlow
May 20th 2008, 11:05 AM
No, baptism is NOT necessary, faith alone saves us. Much like circumcision was a covenant sign in the Old Testament days, baptism is a covenant sign in the New Testament. Here are some verses that blow away the idea the baptism is necessary for salvation:

Luke 23:42-43=And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise (the thief was saved without baptism, the most prominent example of somebody being saved on their deathbed).

A verse erroneously used to support the idea that baptism is necessary is John 3:5-6=Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Looking at the context of John 3:5-6 we see that being born of the water is NOT baptism, but the natural birth in the womb, as Nicodemus asked Jesus in John 3:4 "how could somebody be born again when he is old, by re-entering his mother's womb?" Being born of the Spirit is our regeneration by the Holy Spirit, when we accept his calling to follow Christ, he goes from working on the outside to indwelling us at that moment we place our faith in Christ, and we are "born again."

A few more verses that shoot a hole through the erroneous notion of Baptismal Regeneration:

Acts 16:30-31=Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9-10=That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:13=For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And finally, the last verse that sounds the death-knell to Baptismal Regeneration-
1 Corinthians 1:17=For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

If baptism was so important for salvation, as some erroneously believe, don't you think Paul would have been sent to preach AND baptize? He explicitly says that he was sent to preach the gospel, not to baptize. So baptism is NOT necessary for salvation. Unfortunately, the church I go to (a Church of Christ), erroneously believes that baptism is necessary, I think I'm the only one in the congregation who thinks otherwise, I just haven't said anything about it, but I think I should as believing that baptism is necessary is an error that should be repented of immediately. I once erroneously thought baptism was essential, but when I did some research and scripture study, I realized I was wrong and repented of that error, I no longer believe that baptism is necessary because of the above mentioned passages, haven't believed that baptism is necessary since Jan, about a month and a half after I was baptized.

Steve M
May 20th 2008, 12:16 PM
I belong to a baptism saves Church, but let me clarify that with a Bible verse I think clarifies mightily.

Colossians 2:12
having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

In baptism we are buried and raised with Christ, but only through our faith.

crawfish
May 20th 2008, 12:53 PM
If baptism was so important for salvation, as some erroneously believe, don't you think Paul would have been sent to preach AND baptize? He explicitly says that he was sent to preach the gospel, not to baptize. So baptism is NOT necessary for salvation. Unfortunately, the church I go to (a Church of Christ), erroneously believes that baptism is necessary, I think I'm the only one in the congregation who thinks otherwise, I just haven't said anything about it, but I think I should as believing that baptism is necessary is an error that should be repented of immediately. I once erroneously thought baptism was essential, but when I did some research and scripture study, I realized I was wrong and repented of that error, I no longer believe that baptism is necessary because of the above mentioned passages, haven't believed that baptism is necessary since Jan, about a month and a half after I was baptized.

I also attend a church of Christ, so I know where you're coming from...I do not hold their traditional views on baptism - in sinful, out forgiven - but I think your logic is flawed here.

First, Paul didn't work alone, and it's obvious that those with him DID baptize. Perhaps his concern was of the type indicated in 1 Cor:10-17; people were dividing themselves based on who baptized them. Paul knew his celebrity, and thus avoided baptizing as much as possible in order to keep anyone from getting a big head. (My minister also doesn't baptize often for the same reason - he is an uncomfortable celebrity).

Here is my belief: baptism is a sign of obedience, commanded by God. It does not add to your salvation; it is not a work that you can do to make yourself right. What it is is a declaration of the point in your life when you fully submitted yourself to God.

That shouldn't take anything away from the fact that it is grace that saves us, through faith. We choose our way or God's way; when we choose the latter, we choose to be obedient to His will. But it's not the "obedience" part that saves us; salvation is not added to because of how good we live, how much service we do, how much bible we study or anything else; it is purely God's grace that saves us. But can you truly say your heart is in the right place if you refuse to do something God asked of you?

The story of Naaman is very relevant here (2 Kings 5:1-19). Naaman had leprosy and went to the prophet Elisha to ask for healing. Elisha didn't meet with Naaman, but had his servant tell Naaman to dip seven times in the Jordan river. At first Naaman balked, but eventually relented, and on the seventh time, his leprosy was cured. Was it the Jordan that cleansed him? Was it the number of times? No, it was his obedience to the simple command that did it.

Keep in mind, not a single Christian in the NT went unbaptized. There are commands to be baptized. I think we worry too much about what point at which we are saved; truly, only God knows that. What I would be loathe to do is to take value away from something that was obviously important to the early church.

Frances
May 20th 2008, 07:42 PM
Baptism is an outward sign of an inward change of heart and Lord.

I understand that in some countries, where Christians are persecuted, no one is accepted as a Christian unless they have been baptised - not because the baptism Saves them, but because it is a demonstration of the new Christian's determination to follow Christ and obey Him no matter what happens.

Frances
May 20th 2008, 07:43 PM
sorry, clicked twice by mistake.

MidnightsPaleGlow
May 20th 2008, 07:45 PM
Here is my belief: baptism is a sign of obedience, commanded by God. It does not add to your salvation; it is not a work that you can do to make yourself right. What it is is a declaration of the point in your life when you fully submitted yourself to God.

That shouldn't take anything away from the fact that it is grace that saves us, through faith. We choose our way or God's way; when we choose the latter, we choose to be obedient to His will. But it's not the "obedience" part that saves us; salvation is not added to because of how good we live, how much service we do, how much bible we study or anything else; it is purely God's grace that saves us. But can you truly say your heart is in the right place if you refuse to do something God asked of you?

I agree, that's why I was baptized, to demonstrate obedience, I was saved through faith before I was baptized, I was merely demonstrating my obedience by being immersed. Whether or not somebody is baptized doesn't affect their salvation, somebody could feel the Holy Spirit calling them, trust in Christ, and then go to be baptized at the church across the street, but before he gets there, he gets hit and killed by a car. He was still saved, he wanted to be baptized and obey God's command, but he met an untimely end before being baptized. Saving faith produces works, this here is precisely what the gospel is:

Faith+Salvation=Works (Being Baptized, etc.)

NOT

Faith+Works (Being Baptized)=Salvation

resbmc
May 20th 2008, 08:12 PM
There is only ONE, only ONE way that save us, that is by GRACE, and thats it. He tells us to be babtized, so (that when our sins are condemned (forgiven) and we are buried with him. Its one of those things you should do, as soon as possible, but if you died before you had it done, you are stilled saved, by the Grace of God. Dont let anyone,anywhere tell you, you have to do works. Works is God dealing with YOU on a personal basis. Works gets you no where, Grace saves you and thats it. How you let God in your life is up to you, how you let God work through you is up to you. To be buried with Christ, get babtized, but it doesnt save you, it is a command, not a commandment, to get baptized just like he says to eat my body and blood, in remembrance of him. None of that saves you, again, you are only saved by Grace, and that it, no BUT'S whatsoever and anyone who tells you that is trying to get you to do some "work" for your salvation, it is a gift from God, you cant earn it, buy it, you accept the Grace he gives us and then PRAISE GOD< YOUR SAVED. Take your gift and run with it.

crawfish
May 20th 2008, 08:14 PM
I agree, that's why I was baptized, to demonstrate obedience, I was saved through faith before I was baptized, I was merely demonstrating my obedience by being immersed. Whether or not somebody is baptized doesn't affect their salvation, somebody could feel the Holy Spirit calling them, trust in Christ, and then go to be baptized at the church across the street, but before he gets there, he gets hit and killed by a car. He was still saved, he wanted to be baptized and obey God's command, but he met an untimely end before being baptized. Saving faith produces works, this here is precisely what the gospel is:

Faith+Salvation=Works (Being Baptized, etc.)

NOT

Faith+Works (Being Baptized)=Salvation

I guess the part that has me a bit nervous is the statement that "you don't need to get baptized". I would be very leery of teaching this - not because it adds one whit to your salvation, but because it is given in the bible as a command for obedience.

I would say that if you were killed on the way to be baptized, God would know your heart and you would be saved. If you decided that for some reason you do not want to get baptized, then again God will know your heart. A heart for God wants to be obedient to Him.

I don't disagree with the gist of what you are saying, though.

resbmc
May 20th 2008, 08:21 PM
He tells you to do it, but if it doesnt get done, same as if you never had communion, you are still save, but if not getting Baptized the only thing you did wrong after getting save, I dont think God is going to hold it against you. you are still forgiven and saved. I agree, you should do it to be buried with Christ. You should have communion to share the Lords supper, there are 1,00000000000000000000 things we should do, but if we failed to do one, guess what, I am stilled saved by the blood of the Lamb. Should you get baptized? YYYYEEEESSSS, but if you didnt, has nothing to do with Grace.

crawfish
May 20th 2008, 08:30 PM
He tells you to do it, but if it doesnt get done, same as if you never had communion, you are still save, but if not getting Baptized the only thing you did wrong after getting save, I dont think God is going to hold it against you. you are still forgiven and saved. I agree, you should do it to be buried with Christ. You should have communion to share the Lords supper, there are 1,00000000000000000000 things we should do, but if we failed to do one, guess what, I am stilled saved by the blood of the Lamb. Should you get baptized? YYYYEEEESSSS, but if you didnt, has nothing to do with Grace.

As I said, it all depends on your heart. The Ethiopian eunuch couldn't wait to get into the water after he'd heard the word. I just can't understand why somebody would want to wait, or not get baptized, or not take communion.

I have heard of Christians in remote desert areas who just don't have access to enough water to be dunked in. I have heard of Christians who decide to covert through online conversations and it takes a while to find a Christian to baptize them. I know that God views us through our extenuating circumstances, judging our hearts and not judging us on the strict following of a set of rules.

However: what if a man decided to become a Christian and said "I'll start thinking about giving up the porn in a year or two". It just makes me wonder - what is really in that person's heart? I know that I won't tell anyone that baptism is optional or should be put off. It's just "something that needs to be done". To tell someone otherwise would be wrong.

Athanasius
May 20th 2008, 08:32 PM
I like how one commentator put it:

"Baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is the initiatory sign and seal into the covenant of grace. As circumcision referred to the cutting away of sin and to a change of heart (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:25,26; Ez. 44:7,9) baptism refers to the washing away of sin (Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:21; Tit. 3:5) and to spiritual renewal (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:11-12). The circumcision of the heart is signified by the circumcision of the flesh, that is, baptism (Col. 2:11-12)."*

And I agree, it's not necessary for salvation, but I think it is a very necessary outward showing of faith if it is at all possible to do so.

I'd comment more on the verses, but I've very little time at the moment ;\

*http://www.carm.org/questions/baptnec.htm

MidnightsPaleGlow
May 21st 2008, 02:15 AM
I guess the part that has me a bit nervous is the statement that "you don't need to get baptized". I would be very leery of teaching this - not because it adds one whit to your salvation, but because it is given in the bible as a command for obedience.

I would say that if you were killed on the way to be baptized, God would know your heart and you would be saved. If you decided that for some reason you do not want to get baptized, then again God will know your heart. A heart for God wants to be obedient to Him.

I don't disagree with the gist of what you are saying, though.

Don't get me wrong, everyone who professes faith in Christ, if it is sincere, genuine faith, will get baptized to show obedience (like I did). I believe that it is very highly encouraged, I just don't think that it has any affect on salvation because it doesn't. It's commanded of everyone who professes faith in Christ, and should be done no ifs ands or buts.

fewarechosen
May 21st 2008, 01:55 PM
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

the baptism of old is the dunking in water ,
god sent his disciples out to baptize because when they baptised the person recieved the holy spirt. not just a hallow act.

the baptism must happen for one to have the spirit which is the holy ghost which flows through the.

the error happens when people who were not chosen start thinking they can baptize then lead people astray.
god can baptise who he wants when he wants however he wants. he may have a person do it, he may have it done while you are sleeping its up to him.

in the end you dont need a person to baptize you , you need god to baptize

DAS
May 21st 2008, 09:00 PM
I don't want to go through verse by verse when someone else has or will, but for hard questions like this, Norm Geisler has written a book called "When Critics Ask" that takes every hard verse (over 800) and explains it, including these.

ARC Studies
May 21st 2008, 09:32 PM
In reality, John 3:2 has nothing to do with water baptism. One has to read this concept into the passage. What occurs is that Jesus asserted to Nicodemus "you must be born again." Nicodemus, like all of the rest of us, had already been born once in the flesh, and thus was confused, hence his question. This first fleshy birth will take no one to heaven. You must be born a second time, ("again.") The waters of the natural birth are only addressed by Jesus in response to Nicodemus' confused question. To be clear, there are only two births referred to in the text; one of the flesh and one of the Spirit. We are all born through Adam into the first, and may be born through Christ into the second. (Jn 3:6)

Jehu10842
May 21st 2008, 09:44 PM
Biblegirl,
You've answered your own question. There's nothing in the Bible that says that baptism is an outward sign of an inward grace.

Consider Paul's conversion. After falling to the ground in repentance, calling Jesus Lord and spending a couple of days believing, he was still told to "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins."

This goes against the majority opinion. Look to God's word. Read about all of the conversions in the book of Acts and draw your conclusion.

Remember, the salvation of the thief of the cross was in the old testament. Christ hadn't died yet. Also remember that the epistles (1Cor through Jude) were written to Christians.

I hope this helps.

TexasBeliever
May 21st 2008, 10:27 PM
This is a very insightful thread and all who have contributed have done so with brotherly/sisterly love. (I love that).
I believe baptism is an exercise in obedience but it is faith that saves.
Why do I believe this?
I was baptized as a baby as were my parents because they were Catholic. They were being obedient on my behalf.
But I know I wasn't saved until I realized that Jesus was my Lord and my God and He took the penalty of MY sins to the cross.

I do not reject the baptism that I received so long ago, but rather embrace it. There are those who believe that the timing of one's baptism is important. My father went to the Lord in faith and I do not believe that he was rejected because he was baptized as in infant.

Simple, saving faith. Faith in God and the promises He made to the people of the OT saved them and faith in God and the fulfilled promise of the Savior who came from the line of Abraham is what saves us.

David Taylor
May 23rd 2008, 12:07 PM
Keep in mind, not a single Christian in the NT went unbaptized.

I agree christians should want to be baptized.
Is that claim truly supportable though?

Where does the NT tell us these following NT Christian were baptized?
If it doesn't, then the claim is false.

1)
Luke 23:38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2)
Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

3)
Luke 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

crawfish
May 23rd 2008, 01:15 PM
I agree christians should want to be baptized.
Is that claim truly supportable though?

Where does the NT tell us these following NT Christian were baptized?
If it doesn't, then the claim is false.

1)
Luke 23:38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2)
Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

3)
Luke 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

1) Was the thief on the cross a Christian? When was the Church established? At Jesus' birth? His death? Or his resurrection? I would say that this is a special case anyway, because it's not like he would have been able to get baptized anyway. My point is that God understands our heart; he knew the man was truly repentant.

2) Well, Stephen's conversion was not documented, so I guess we can't know for sure. However, it's possible that he was converted on that first day, in Acts 2:41, when 3000 were baptized. I have to think that if they went to the trouble to baptize 3,000 people in one day, it's unlikely they'd have changed the process anytime soon. :)

3) Again, when was the Church officially established? Were Jesus' followers truly Christians before his resurrection? Jesus was the fulfillment of the law; his resurrection sealed the new covenant.

Jehu10842
May 23rd 2008, 04:59 PM
The thief on the cross died under the old testament. Also, Jesus had the authority to forgive sins so take your pick.

The Bible doesn't mention Stephen's baptism specifically that I know of but it doesn't say he wasn't baptized either.

Again, the account of Zacchaus was under the old testament.

It seems that people understand the term "old testament" to refer to Genesis through Malachi and the term "new testament" to refer to Matthew through Revelation. In reality, the Old testament was the Law as handed down to Moses. Genesis was before the old testament. Also, the new testament didn't begin until after the death of Christ.

Paul was instructed to "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" after he believed, repented and called on the name of the Lord. If baptism isn't essential, how do you explain this?

"Come, let us reason together."

resbmc
May 23rd 2008, 05:12 PM
I agree fully with Xel'naga and well put. people are always trying to put some kind of work, no matter what to salvation. Grace is Grace. A guy gets saved, runs across the street to the nearest church, gets ran over by an 18 wheeler, he is not save? Totally disagree with Fewarechosen. Born of water and spirit is being born physically and then born with a new heart, born again. Should you be baptised, yes, does you salvation depend on it, no. Remember, God's judgement starts in the church. Dont put burdens on people, sayiny they have sinned, it is God's time to clean the fish, that a fisher of man caught up to God by wittnessing to him. Grace is salvation, nothing else. Each person will face God for whatever it was they were suppose to do, or didnt do, or maybe for what they did do, ouch. We are suppose to obey God in all things, and just because we dont, we dont lose our Grace. Thak you Jesus, or you would have to die a second time.

Irene
May 23rd 2008, 05:53 PM
Baptism is symbolic of showing you are being cleansed from your sins ...JESUS is the ONLY way to salvation and believing HE is the son of GOD born of the Flesh...once you Truly receive this in your heart you are saved...

Jehu10842
May 23rd 2008, 06:36 PM
Baptism is symbolic of showing you are being cleansed from your sins ...JESUS is the ONLY way to salvation and believing HE is the son of GOD born of the Flesh...once you Truly receive this in your heart you are saved...

Where does the Bible say that Baptism is symbolic of being cleansed from sin?

Also, where does it say that "once you truly receive this in your heart you are saved"?

"Come, let us reason together"

Irene
May 23rd 2008, 07:31 PM
WOOO :o

wow I stand corrected..

Mark 16:1 He that believeth and isbaptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and bebaptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

to believe and be saved ....

Believe:
) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
a) of the thing believed
1) to credit, have confidence
b) in a moral or religious reference
1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
a) to be intrusted with a thing

how can one believe and not be convicted that JESUS is LORD? if you believe doesnt that mean you have Truly received HIM?

Irene
May 23rd 2008, 07:50 PM
so to be baptized is a sign of repentance....Wow I learned something new today...Thanks for prompting me to validate my belief...I would of still be walking around in ERROR...

Jehu10842
May 23rd 2008, 08:04 PM
Irene,
I'm trying to follow your reasoning but the sarcasm is impeding my progress.

Where does the Bible say (or imply) that Baptism is a sign of repentance?

I understand that "faith only" is the common belief. That doesn't make it correct. Try doing a search in a computer Bible and see how many times "faith only" or "faith alone" comes up.

"Come, let us reason together"

Irene
May 23rd 2008, 08:07 PM
Irene,
I'm trying to follow your reasoning but the sarcasm is impeding my progress.

Where does the Bible say (or imply) that Baptism is a sign of repentance?

I understand that "faith only" is the common belief. That doesn't make it correct. Try doing a search in a computer Bible and see how many times "faith only" or "faith alone" comes up.

sarcasm? what? I did not mean it to sound that way I was just shocked I had learned incorrectly...

yes I seen how many times Faith only and Faith alone comes up but isnt faith part of believing?

resbmc
May 23rd 2008, 08:33 PM
Mark 16:1 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Romans 6:3 shows how it is kinda a gift to be, babtized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death. We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the Glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. This is why you should be baptized, the same reason to have communion, but your salvation is not in jeopardy if you died before having it done, that is works. Even the scripture stated above says he that does not believe is not save. It doesnt say he who is not baptized, your reading into it.

Irene
May 23rd 2008, 09:02 PM
everything I have found is that it is JESUS that gives you eternal life and nothing else...

1 John 5
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

TexasBeliever
May 23rd 2008, 09:08 PM
Thank you for that scripture Irene. Beautiful.

resbmc
May 23rd 2008, 09:21 PM
Amen Irene and Amen for Jesus and Grace only gets you saved, thats when its God's turn to work on you, and not other.

Jehu10842
May 23rd 2008, 11:07 PM
sarcasm? what? I did not mean it to sound that way I was just shocked I had learned incorrectly...

yes I seen how many times Faith only and Faith alone comes up but isnt faith part of believing?

My bad:blush:

The way that I finally came to grip with the faith/works/baptism issue was to study the battle of Jericho. That sounds a little weird I know but bear with me.

Joshua was commanded by God to march around the city once a day for six days and then seven times on the seventh day. This worked out pretty well. What if Joshua took a day off and stayed home on the third day but other than that, he obeyed God? Read about Nadab and Abihu if you're wondering how serious God is when he specifies details. Anyway, after Joshua obeyed God, the walls fell down and God said "behold I have GIVEN you Jericho."

Some points from this story:

Jericho was a gift. Joshua didn't earn it.

Joshua obeyed God and received the promised reward.

Joshua had the faith that moved him to obey. He trusted God.

Compare those principles to baptism:

Salvation is a gift. We don't earn it.

In baptism, we obey God and receive the promised reward.

Faith in God and his promises move us to obey him.

Please forgive the marathon post. It's the only way I could think of to show my reasoning on this matter. I believe we're saved by God's grace and we can't possibly earn salvation. That doesn't mean that obedience (baptism) isn't esential.

"Come, let us reason together."

Irene
May 23rd 2008, 11:13 PM
no offense taken and I would say your forgiven but I had not offense LOL...so NO PROBLEM ;)

MichelleQ
May 29th 2008, 01:00 PM
Keep in mind, not a single Christian in the NT went unbaptized

Yes, there was--the thief on the cross next to Jesus. Jesus promised him that because of his cries and his faith in Him, he would be in paradise with Him later.


Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

My former pastor taught that the "water" in this verse applied to birth (the breaking of the woman's waters prior to childbirth or the amniotic fluid during pregnancy as would apply to abortion and miscarriage) and the "Spirit" is through your faith in Christ. Thus, you must be physically born (meaning none of Satans spirits, etc. that aren't actually born of man) AND spiritually REborn (except for children/babies who have not reached the age of accountability, which is different for all, too.)

ETA--When looking at the Scriptures, I think it's extremely helpful to look at the original Greek text to get the genuine meaning. For example, when the Bible speaks of baptism being necessary FOR salvation, the word "for" is important here. The Greek word for "for" actually has two meanings, one of which is the same as the English word "because". So a good comparison might be:

I took an aspirin FOR my headache.

Did I take an aspirin so that I MIGHT have a headache? No! I took an aspirin BECAUSE I DID have a headache.

Same thing with baptism, if you go by the original Greek text.

Am I baptized so I MIGHT be saved? No! I am baptized BECAUSE I AM saved.

:)

Just another way to look at it, I suppose. :)

crawfish
May 29th 2008, 02:03 PM
Yes, there was--the thief on the cross next to Jesus. Jesus promised him that because of his cries and his faith in Him, he would be in paradise with Him later.

Again, the thief cannot truly be called a "Christian" because the church was not established until after Jesus' resurrection.

RJ Mac
May 29th 2008, 02:29 PM
We are saved by:

The grace of God Eph.2:5,8; Ac.15:11; 1Pe.1:10; Reconciled
The life/death of Christ Mt.1:21; 1Tim.1:15, Heb.3:1; Justified
The work of the HS. 1Cor.1:18; Ja.1:21; 1Pe.1:22,23; Sanctified

The voice of a Christian 1Cor.1:17; 7:16; 9:22; Ro.10;17; 1Th.2:16;
The name of Jesus Ac.2:21; 4:12; Mt.28:18-20;
The baptism into Christ. Mk.16:16; Ac.2:37,38; 1Pe.3:21;

Our Faith - Mk.16:16; Ac.16:31; Eph.2:8;
Our Hope - Ro.8:24;
Our Love - 2Th.2:10; 1Tim.4:16; Php.2:12;

Take one of these nine points out and the whole thing falls.
Salvation is a compilation of all of these and it culminates at baptism but
not one is the key you need all nine working in your life.


RJ Mac

Jehu10842
May 29th 2008, 02:35 PM
Yes, there was--the thief on the cross next to Jesus. Jesus promised him that because of his cries and his faith in Him, he would be in paradise with Him later.


ETA--When looking at the Scriptures, I think it's extremely helpful to look at the original Greek text to get the genuine meaning. For example, when the Bible speaks of baptism being necessary FOR salvation, the word "for" is important here. The Greek word for "for" actually has two meanings, one of which is the same as the English word "because". So a good comparison might be:

I took an aspirin FOR my headache.

Did I take an aspirin so that I MIGHT have a headache? No! I took an aspirin BECAUSE I DID have a headache.

Same thing with baptism, if you go by the original Greek text.

Am I baptized so I MIGHT be saved? No! I am baptized BECAUSE I AM saved.

:)

Just another way to look at it, I suppose. :)

The thief on the cross was an Old Testament conversion. The Church (new testament) had not yet been established.

The greek word is eis which means "into" not "because of"



"Come, let us reason together."

MichelleQ
May 30th 2008, 08:48 PM
The thief on the cross was an Old Testament conversion. The Church (new testament) had not yet been established.

The greek word is eis which means "into" not "because of"




Not what I was taught so we'll have to agree to disagree there.

And in my book, anyone who has faith in Jesus is a Christian. I could care less about the establishment of ANY church. There are a LOT of people in the church who have been baptized and all and will not see Heaven. :)

Ashley274
May 31st 2008, 02:41 AM
You are saved by FAITH in Christ....You ought to want to be Baptised as a sign or symbol of that faith but it IS NOT what saves

MidnightsPaleGlow
May 31st 2008, 03:45 AM
Yes, there was--the thief on the cross next to Jesus. Jesus promised him that because of his cries and his faith in Him, he would be in paradise with Him later.



My former pastor taught that the "water" in this verse applied to birth (the breaking of the woman's waters prior to childbirth or the amniotic fluid during pregnancy as would apply to abortion and miscarriage) and the "Spirit" is through your faith in Christ. Thus, you must be physically born (meaning none of Satans spirits, etc. that aren't actually born of man) AND spiritually REborn (except for children/babies who have not reached the age of accountability, which is different for all, too.)

ETA--When looking at the Scriptures, I think it's extremely helpful to look at the original Greek text to get the genuine meaning. For example, when the Bible speaks of baptism being necessary FOR salvation, the word "for" is important here. The Greek word for "for" actually has two meanings, one of which is the same as the English word "because". So a good comparison might be:

I took an aspirin FOR my headache.

Did I take an aspirin so that I MIGHT have a headache? No! I took an aspirin BECAUSE I DID have a headache.

Same thing with baptism, if you go by the original Greek text.

Am I baptized so I MIGHT be saved? No! I am baptized BECAUSE I AM saved.

:)

Just another way to look at it, I suppose. :)

Agreed, unfortunately, the church I attend (currently a Church of Christ) erroneously believes that baptism is necessary (loosely, this congregation doesn't seem to hold to the t the classic view that other CofC's do, but they still erroneously believe it is necessary), and I can shoot that argument full of holes with a handful of verses that say that baptism is NOT necessary. I feel a need, out of love, to warn the congregation that believing that baptism is necessary is a serious error that should be repented of. I know Max Lucado, who is an ordained Church of Christ preacher, doesn't hold to the baptism is necessary view that a good deal of CofC's do. I know I got baptized at the CofC that I attend, and once erroneously thought it was necessary, but a little over a month after being baptized, I realized I was in error and repented of it, so the way I view it, saved in November of 2007, baptized to show obedience and to show THAT I WAS ALREADY SAVED, NOT TO BE SAVED in December. I have been in silent disagreement with them on their view of baptism ever since late January, but feel that I can no longer hold my silence, out of love, I need to let them know that this is an error that should be rejected. Each CofC is independent, and various doctrinal differences, petty or pronounced, exist between each congregation, so there actually might be CofC congregations (such as Max Lucado's) that don't hold to the "baptism necessary" view, hopefully my own will go the way of "it isn't necessary" route.

RJ Mac
May 31st 2008, 03:32 PM
In a previous post I showed there are 9 things to happen in one's life in order
to be saved. Many here say its only one thing and that's faith but not
according to scripture, all nine are recorded with the claim SWDZW they
save, give salvation.

Baptism saves, 1Pe.3:21; but so do all the others. To say faith only is to
deny the blood of Christ, the name of Jesus, the work of the HS etc.
Faith without works is dead, faith without love an empty gong.

The problem I see between those who deny baptism and those who profess it is this:
those who deny see it on a literal level, how can dirt wash away sin?
How can the physical effect the spiritual?
Those who profess baptism see it on a symbolic plain - it represents joining
Christ in death, it shows our obedience to God's direct command.

Baptism is essential, but not the only essential ingredient for coming to God
in fact Love is the biggest ingredient, a Love for the Truth, so as to be saved.
Without love, you won't survive the long run.

Why deny something the Bible proclaims? Why not reach out and embrace
the whole Word of God.
Ac.20:26,27; Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the
blood of all men. For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole
purpose of God.

Why the lesson with Namaan? For those who deny baptism, was Namaan
saved by the water of the Jordan, he couldn't go home and do it?
To those who believe baptism is essential, Namaan was saved because
he obeyed the command of God, given by a man, and was immersed in the
Jordan river and did so 7 times and because of obedience he was cleansed.
It had nothing to do with the water, the physical can't cleanse the
spiritual but the obedient act is what its all about.

The NT gives that same command, to be immersed to be saved 1Pe.3:21;
and that command is directly given by Jesus, Mark, Matthew, Luke, Paul, Peter,
so why deny, just obey.

RJ Mac

lmwal931
Jun 2nd 2008, 04:24 AM
baptism is a turning point. a baptism of repentance is good for your walk.

JESUS is essential for salvation. there is no other way. i like 1st john. it clarifies the importance of loving everybody.

Jehu10842
Jun 2nd 2008, 04:05 PM
Not what I was taught so we'll have to agree to disagree there.

And in my book, anyone who has faith in Jesus is a Christian. I could care less about the establishment of ANY church. There are a LOT of people in the church who have been baptized and all and will not see Heaven. :)

So you're saying that, because that's the way you were taught, it's the truth? Look up the meaning of the word "eis". If you're going to base your eternal destiny on what you've been taught by man then you're taking quite a risk.

Jehu10842
Jun 2nd 2008, 04:07 PM
...I can shoot that argument full of holes with a handful of verses that say that baptism is NOT necessary...

Let's discuss them. What's the first verse in your handfull?

"come, let us reason together."

damaris
Jun 15th 2008, 05:28 AM
Luke 23:42-43=And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise (the thief was saved without baptism, the most prominent example of somebody being saved on their deathbed).



You are using a small segment of the bible and taking it out of context. Notice that they did not yet have time to get baptized (if they would have lived, my opinion would be that they would have gotten baptized). Now I am not saying baptism is completely necessary for salvation (I am trying to make this statement as cautiously as I can), but I am saying that a believing Christian automatically has that innate passion and conviction to get baptized. I feel like we are all playing semantics here in a way. If it is just a religious ritual not needed for believers, Christ would have never been such an advocate for it in the first place. As a Christian, my understanding of Christ is that he did not do things in vain or as 'rituals' that 'maybe' needed to be performed. He made a clear statement to John the Baptist, ordering him to baptize in the name if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It was a---well, I guess some can do it and others don't have to because it's gonna be fine either way.

From my understanding and conviction, I'm confused when people refuse to get baptized because they want to make a statement that 'baptism doesn't save'. This argument simply doesn't make sense because although the act itself is not what saves, the reason as to why you choose to act gives baptism a deeper meaning.

fewarechosen
Jun 15th 2008, 03:25 PM
baptism with h2o is an easy way out

its visable its tangible -- someone can feel they are saved after because they think they were baptised.
they can say hey im in the body of christ now i was baptised. they will let almost anyone baptise them -- hey this guys says hes a priest or whatever , cool he can baptise me and i will be gods chosen . people will cling to man made doctrine and feel good solutions ,because we want the easy way out. and people love their earthly rituals they love ornate garb and high seats in the temple. we love the security a earthly ritual provides.

the real baptism is the holy spirit - when you have it you will know

dont put your faith in denominations or man made doctrines, put your faith in god

john indeed baptized with water -- but god baptizes with fire

DanB
Jun 17th 2008, 03:15 AM
I feel a need, out of love, to warn the congregation that believing that baptism is necessary is a serious error that should be repented of. I


To validate your argument can you please provide some Bible verses that state that baptism is not necessary and in fact is a sin (as u imply) of which we have to repent of if it accepted by someone? On the contrary our Lord Jesus commanded baptism. So let's not rush to make statements that do not have biblical support. Every day I learn more things about our Savior's majesty, and for the past 25 yrs. I was continuously taught by the word of God and other believers about His plan for me. And guess what? With every day that passes by I learn more and more. God Bless!

moshea4
Jun 17th 2008, 05:04 AM
As a new found believer in Christ, I will offer you my view of what I believe Baptism truly symbolizes. Merely reading the text of Acts 22:16, we find that Paul, on the road to Damascus, was embraced by Ananias who proclaimed to him "And now why are you [Paul] waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Simply put, Baptism is the washing away of one's sins. Asking the question "Is Baptism necessary for salvation?" is like asking "Can an individual be sentenced to prison when there is no evidence against him?" At first glance, yes, an individual can be put in prison without evidence against him (assuming a just society), but it is highly, highly improbable it will occur considering evidence is what MAKES the jury convict and without it, a conviction is almost never going to occur (literally almost impossible). Similar to the Baptism question, an individual will most likely not be saved if they are not baptized since it is a step in the process of BEING saved. It is a manifestation of your repentance and is demanded by biblical teachings to be a NECESSARY act in complete forgiveness of your sins.

A jury would never convict a man without evidence, although it is possible, just as a believer would never be a true believer without being baptized, although it may be possible. The enigma was put well by "Damaris" as she states that this question should really never come up considering those who want to be saved will be baptized and those who do not will not want to be baptized. If someone has to ask it, then it is highly likely they are not a true believer. Likewise, if a jury does convict a man, then it is likely he/she is not innocent. (although there are obvious screwups in the system, which, in comparison, lead to the very, very few exceptions of a believer being saved and not baptized)

I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else and I apologize if that was all over the place, but yes, God ultimately demands us to be baptized for salvation since it is part of the process to even accept Christ as your Savior just as society demands the state to provide evidence to convict and put an individual behind bars. Thanks for reading! :)

damaris
Jun 17th 2008, 05:34 AM
After thinking about this for a little bit, I've realized the reason as to why people are so opposed to baptism. I think many people think --- "well, only faith saves. So that means no act can save, cutting baptism out of the question."

There is a problem with this sort of mentality. 1. It leaves room for MUCH distortion because if this idea would be true, then such advocates are against doing good deeds as well, correct? Since we all know that it truly is not the good deeds that save (since you can be a very moral person and still not be saved), then proponents against baptism should be against doing good deeds as well since deeds are acts. So why do such Christians continue to do good deeds advocated by Christ and the apostles in the Bible? My opinion and understanding is this--baptism, along with good deeds are complementary for salvation. If this were not true, then every Christian is not entitled to do any good deeds due to the fact that they already believe in Jesus Christ, right? With this logic, it's pointless to help the poor and serve the widows (commandments) because "it isn't necessary for salvation because faith alone gets us saved". To be honest, this idea just doesn't make sense or contain any validity because trying to prove the notion of 'salvation through faith' by going against a commandment Christ has given us seems is contradictory.

Christ isn't saving that everyone that physically gets baptized IS saved, but he is saying that you should get baptized if you are saved. These are two completely different concepts people constantly get wrong.

fewarechosen
Jun 17th 2008, 06:48 PM
After thinking about this for a little bit, I've realized the reason as to why people are so opposed to baptism. I think many people think --- "well, only faith saves. So that means no act can save, cutting baptism out of the question."

There is a problem with this sort of mentality. 1. It leaves room for MUCH distortion because if this idea would be true, then such advocates are against doing good deeds as well, correct? Since we all know that it truly is not the good deeds that save (since you can be a very moral person and still not be saved), then proponents against baptism should be against doing good deeds as well since deeds are acts. So why do such Christians continue to do good deeds advocated by Christ and the apostles in the Bible? My opinion and understanding is this--baptism, along with good deeds are complementary for salvation. If this were not true, then every Christian is not entitled to do any good deeds due to the fact that they already believe in Jesus Christ, right? With this logic, it's pointless to help the poor and serve the widows (commandments) because "it isn't necessary for salvation because faith alone gets us saved". To be honest, this idea just doesn't make sense or contain any validity because trying to prove the notion of 'salvation through faith' by going against a commandment Christ has given us seems is contradictory.

Christ isn't saving that everyone that physically gets baptized IS saved, but he is saying that you should get baptized if you are saved. These are two completely different concepts people constantly get wrong.


your point about doing good deeds

doing a good deed helps someone -- if you feed the hungry the eat, if you visit someone in prison they have company so on and so on. a vain ceremony does nothing but reinforce mans belief in physical rituals. the h2o baptism doesnt do anything for the person, it doesnt feed him if hes hungry it doesnt cloth him if hes naked.
those are the good deeds you speak of that do something

now im all for the holy spirit baptism -- thats actually receiving the holy spirit -- but for man to sort of say hey we can do that --is just wrong. the apostles were given power to baptise with the holy spirit. lots of people believed in christ and followed him when he was alive on earth -- but he only chose 12 to go and baptise. he didnt say hey everyone go baptise even though you dont even know what it is, but many do that today still clinging to man made cerimonies so they can feel saved.

its like a easy mental way out -- ok i will get a h2o baptism then i will know , they dont want to have to struggle and worry about it and pray for it, they want a nice easy, blue light special, baptism. and people dont like feeling left out so they want to get baptised too so they can be saved. and heck how easy is it i just go to my church get dunked in water and look out i have the holy spirit , i can start preaching and baptizing right away. if it was only that easy

remember god doesnt like symbols
he likes mens hearts

a golden calf is a symbol

damaris
Jun 18th 2008, 06:32 PM
your point about doing good deeds

doing a good deed helps someone -- if you feed the hungry the eat, if you visit someone in prison they have company so on and so on. a vain ceremony does nothing but reinforce mans belief in physical rituals. the h2o baptism doesnt do anything for the person, it doesnt feed him if hes hungry it doesnt cloth him if hes naked.
those are the good deeds you speak of that do something

now im all for the holy spirit baptism -- thats actually receiving the holy spirit -- but for man to sort of say hey we can do that --is just wrong. the apostles were given power to baptise with the holy spirit. lots of people believed in christ and followed him when he was alive on earth -- but he only chose 12 to go and baptise. he didnt say hey everyone go baptise even though you dont even know what it is, but many do that today still clinging to man made cerimonies so they can feel saved.

its like a easy mental way out -- ok i will get a h2o baptism then i will know , they dont want to have to struggle and worry about it and pray for it, they want a nice easy, blue light special, baptism. and people dont like feeling left out so they want to get baptised too so they can be saved. and heck how easy is it i just go to my church get dunked in water and look out i have the holy spirit , i can start preaching and baptizing right away. if it was only that easy

remember god doesnt like symbols
he likes mens hearts

a golden calf is a symbol


I really do not understand your point here. If baptism was a man-made ritual, then I would understand your logic..but since Christ actually commanded baptism, then your example doesn't hold any weight. If you actually take the time to read my comment, I said that just because someone gets baptized, that doesn't mean they are necessarily saved. You are trying to say that people who get baptized think that they are automatically saved, which can be true with some people but those who fully understand what baptism is do not perceive this to be true at all.

Being saved comes first------->then baptism. NOT the other way around. You do not receive the Holy Spirit when you get baptized. You HAVE the Holy Spirit in you, which is why baptism is commanded by Christ (yes, Christ..not by any man) to show that you are a born again Christ. Baptism symbolizes the death and resurrection WITH Christ. It's physical manifestation that shows people that you are already a believer in Christ.

And in regards to my deeds example, it does not matter if it helps someone or not, it is still considered WORKS. If you want to argue that works gets you into heaven, then that's a whole separate issue to argue. My argument was made not to show that we should not do works, but to show that people who believe that baptism is a commandment that we can ignore, then it would make sense to believe that those people believe that every other commandment Christ makes should be ignored as well.

*Matthew 28:19

God commands me not make a golden calf and worship it...soooo...I have no idea why that example is in your explanation. There is a difference between Christ commanding acts that symbolize our faith and advising against worshiping symbols....two VERY different things that God is very clear about in the Bible.

seeker_of_truth
Jun 18th 2008, 11:24 PM
"to show that people who believe that baptism is a commandment that we can ignore, then it would make sense to believe that those people believe that every other commandment Christ makes should be ignored as well."


Now this I totally agree with. I do believe that baptism is necesary for salvation, and I cannot ever call it just a symbol.

The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that baptism is absolutely essential for salvation. The necessity of baptism was one of the most important and clear-cut doctrines of ancient Christianity.

Mark 16:16: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Luke 7:29-30: "And all the people that heard him [Christ], and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him."
John 3:5: "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
Acts 2:37-38: "Now when they heard this [Peter's preaching], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

if Jesus meant to teach that belief alone was sufficient for salvation, he would not have added the condition "and is baptized" to the redemption formula. Two, the Savior did not need to mention the failure to be baptized as a cause of damnation, since a person who did not believe the gospel would obviously not even consider getting baptized.

The Savior's message is clear: We must be baptized ("born of water") and then receive the Holy Ghost (born "of the Spirit") to enter into the kingdom of God. This is how the early Christians themselves understood this verse, and they cited it as proof of the necessity of baptism

fewarechosen
Jun 20th 2008, 03:16 PM
baptism is needed -- but its baptism with the holy spirit that is needed not h20.

so notice i am saying you need to be baptised -not at all saying you dont.

now the scripture below clearly states how john is using water --but the one coming after him will baptize with holy spirit and fire. notice he never says the one coming after me will baptise with water.

the real baptism is with the holy spirit, john didnt baptise with the holy spirit because it was only sent after christ -- then the h20 baptism was not needed anymore. so remember scripture says he will baptize with holy spirit and fire -- not water.

so when you speak of water being needed you go against what john said people would be baptised with

also people who are actually baptised will know what the fire is that is spoken of --- notice how rare it is for someone to bring up FIRE in baptism.

thats becasue there are lots of people who think they understand baptism after being dunked in water --but they havent really been baptised. they indeed are baptised with water but not with the holy spirit and with fire.



John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

clear answer -- he will baptize with holy spirit and fire -NOT WATER

losthorizon
Jun 21st 2008, 12:44 AM
baptism is needed -- but its baptism with the holy spirit that is needed not h20.


You are mistaken , brother - the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4 is the baptism administered by the hands of men…”go…teach…baptize” (Matthew 28) per Jesus Christ in the Great Commission. The Lord is speaking about the ordinance of Christian baptism - an immersion in water - and the one baptism is commanded for all believers until He comes again…“and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him” (Acts 8:38). The baptism of the Holy Spirit was never commanded for all believers – it was a promise to specific individuals and administered by Jesus Christ. The believer receives the indwelling "gift of the Holy Spirit" when he/she is immersed in water "calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 2:38).
"Baptism is the grave of the old man, and the birth of the new. As he sinks beneath the baptismal waters, the believer buries there all his corrupt affections and past sins; as he emerges thence, he rises regenerate, quickened to new hopes and new life." ~ J. B. Lightfoot, commentary on Colossians

BroRog
Jun 21st 2008, 01:22 AM
No, Baptism doesn't save you.

losthorizon
Jun 21st 2008, 02:18 AM
No, Baptism doesn't save you.
"baptism doth also now save us..." It is the blood of Christ that completely saves and baptism is simply the “answer of a good conscience toward God” as a symbol of our cleansing through the blood of Christ. Baptism unites us with Christ as we are baptized into His death (Rom 6), i.e., baptism symbolizes Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection that the believer participates in when he/she is immersed in water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1 Pet 3:21)

SoldierOfChrist
Jun 21st 2008, 02:39 AM
You are mistaken , brother - the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4 is the baptism administered by the hands of men…”go…teach…baptize” (Matthew 28) per Jesus Christ in the Great Commission. The Lord is speaking about the ordinance of Christian baptism - an immersion in water - and the one baptism is commanded for all believers until He comes again…“and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him” (Acts 8:38). The baptism of the Holy Spirit was never commanded for all believers – it was a promise to specific individuals and administered by Jesus Christ. The believer receives the indwelling "gift of the Holy Spirit" when he/she is immersed in water "calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 2:38).
"Baptism is the grave of the old man, and the birth of the new. As he sinks beneath the baptismal waters, the believer buries there all his corrupt affections and past sins; as he emerges thence, he rises regenerate, quickened to new hopes and new life." ~ J. B. Lightfoot, commentary on Colossians


Still with the deceptive posts I see! When you post and quote scripture people need to know that the reason you only post the chapter and verse is because it usually doesn't backup what you say it does... as usual!

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

No mention of water Matthew 28:19

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

No mention of water Matthew Acts 2:38

Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

No mention of the eunuch recieving the Holy Spirit Acts 8:38

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

No mention of water Ephesians 4:5-6

You ignore the truth and your posts are deceptive! Explain this on your own without some commentary.

John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Who is john talking to in this verse? When he says "he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:" what does he mean? If your going to quote scripture please use the whole scripture and bold where it backs up what you say.

John's baptism is symbolic of the Spirit Baptism the washing of water with the Word.

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

John1:1 ...the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is needed to know God NOW! He is the God of the living not the dead.

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

When you recieve the Holy spirit you know it!

Michael

Matt14
Jun 21st 2008, 03:10 AM
I could care less about the establishment of ANY church.

Jesus said:

Mat 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Paul said Jesus build His church in this way:

Act 20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

The church is the body of Christ:

Col 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

It is the body of Christ, the church, that will be saved:

Eph 5:23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

We are baptized into the body of Christ:

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Do you still think the church is unimportant?

-

losthorizon
Jun 21st 2008, 03:58 AM
Still with the deceptive posts I see! When you post and quote scripture people need to know that the reason you only post the chapter and verse is because it usually doesn't backup what you say it does... as usual!

Well Michael you have a great day too. You really need to work on your introduction, mate. You appear to be irritated as normal. There is no deception – the problem you are having here is the “chapter and verse” I present is the same “chapter and verse” you want to sweep under the rug. We have waded through your "no water" verses before and you remain confused. Anyone (you) who fails to recognize the baptism described in Acts 2:38 as being anything other than immersion in water is a very confused individual.
Be baptized - The direction which Christ gave to his apostles was that they should baptize all who believed, Mat_28:19; Mar_16:16. The Jews had not been baptized; and a baptism now would be a profession of the religion of Christ, or a declaration made before the world that they embraced Jesus as their Messiah. It was equivalent to saying that they should publicly and professedly embrace Jesus Christ as their Saviour. The gospel requires such a profession, and no one is at liberty to withhold it. A similar declaration is to be made to all who are inquiring the way to life. They are to exercise repentance; and then, without any unnecessary delay, to evince it by partaking of the ordinances of the gospel. If people are unwilling to profess religion, they have none. If they will not, in the proper way, show that they are truly attached to Christ, it is proof that they have no such attachment. Baptism is the application of water, as expressive of the need of purification, and as emblematic of the influences from God that can alone cleanse the soul. It is also a form of dedication to the service of God. ~ Albert Barnes, Notes on the Bible (Acts 2)

SoldierOfChrist
Jun 21st 2008, 05:00 AM
Well Michael you have a great day too. You really need to work on your introduction, mate. You appear to be irritated as normal. There is no deception – the problem you are having here is the “chapter and verse” I present is the same “chapter and verse” you want to sweep under the rug. We have waded through your "no water" verses before and you remain confused. Anyone (you) who fails to recognize the baptism described in Acts 2:38 as being anything other than immersion in water is a very confused individual.

Be baptized - The direction which Christ gave to his apostles was that they should baptize all who believed, Mat_28:19; Mar_16:16. The Jews had not been baptized; and a baptism now would be a profession of the religion of Christ, or a declaration made before the world that they embraced Jesus as their Messiah. It was equivalent to saying that they should publicly and professedly embrace Jesus Christ as their Saviour. The gospel requires such a profession, and no one is at liberty to withhold it. A similar declaration is to be made to all who are inquiring the way to life. They are to exercise repentance; and then, without any unnecessary delay, to evince it by partaking of the ordinances of the gospel. If people are unwilling to profess religion, they have none. If they will not, in the proper way, show that they are truly attached to Christ, it is proof that they have no such attachment. Baptism is the application of water, as expressive of the need of purification, and as emblematic of the influences from God that can alone cleanse the soul. It is also a form of dedication to the service of God. ~ Albert Barnes, Notes on the Bible (Acts 2)

What you present is known as circular reasoning. Because you already believe that then it must support your belief. Wrong!

Here is the scripture you quoted:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

No where it that scripture does it mention water. Now it says be baptised and you will recieve the Holy Ghost. But as we read below which you always ignore John baptized with water. But one that comes later baptized with the Holy Ghost!

John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

As usual you ignore the question and offer no comment on your own!

As for Albert Barnes comment "If they will not, in the proper way, show that they are truly attached to Christ, it is proof that they have no such attachment."

Prove to who? Who is this judge? If you have not Christ you are none of his! There is nothing that needs to be shown or proved to any man. The Lord knows the hearts and only he hears the prayer.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

I will agree with this part: "God that can alone cleanse the soul".

Why not try and make your argument without the deception? Why not just say I think it means this or that but it doesn't say that exactly? As I said you just quote the chapter and verse because it does not support what you say it does. Then we have to pull up the scripture for you and point out that it doesn't say that when you already knew it didn't when you posted it. It is waste of time! You know that we know that it doesn't so who are you trying to fool? I'm more worried about those that might take your word for it without checking the facts and reading the scriptures you quote in verse and chapter.

You have never aswered Matthew 3:11 or Luke 3:16 to you the scriptures do not exist... swept under the rug.

You will never answer like before and we will go in circles as you dance around the truth.

Michael

losthorizon
Jun 21st 2008, 02:43 PM
What you present is known as circular reasoning. Because you already believe that then it must support your belief. Wrong!

Here is the scripture you quoted:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

No where it that scripture does it mention water.



There is no circular reason as you imagine my friend - there is only a misunderstanding on your part as to the true meaning of baptism in the passage above and you do not want to discuss the reality that believers receive the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit at the point of baptism in water. And why do you fail to recognize this truth - simply because it does not fit your theology - a theology that rejects the proper place for God‘s ordinance in His plan to redeem sinful men. I do not know of one scholar or commentator who understands the baptism referred to in Acts 2:38 to be anything other than the ordinance of Christian baptism - a baptism in water - do you? Recognizing the truth of that passage is not circular reasoning as you insist - it is simply proper biblical hermeneutics. You remain in error.


As for Albert Barnes comment "If they will not, in the proper way, show that they are truly attached to Christ, it is proof that they have no such attachment."

Prove to who? Who is this judge? If you have not Christ you are none of his! There is nothing that needs to be shown or proved to any man. The Lord knows the hearts and only he hears the prayer.
God is the judge and God is also the designer of salvation as revealed in Holy Writ and He designed and commanded the public ordinance of baptism as a profession of faith to ALL beleivers - the answer of a good conscience to God. Baptism is to be observed in the church (just like the Supper) "till he come." Do you think Barnes was mistaken when he referred to the baptism of Acts 2:38 as a reference to baptism in water? Did Jesus command that ALL believers be batized in water - ie - is baptism in water an option or is it required by the Lord? Is obedience from the heart to God's commands required if one is to be saved?
Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16)

You have never aswered Matthew 3:11 or Luke 3:16 to you the scriptures do not exist... swept under the rug.
I have responded to these verses many times, Michael and whatever they teach they do not negate the fact that the ordinance of baptism in water comes before “the remission of sins” and before the receiving of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). The baptism of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:11 ) was never commanded for all believers (the ordinance was) – HS baptism was a promise made to specific individuals and administered by Jesus Christ Himself after His resurrection. This promise was fulfilled for the first time on the day of Pentecost when the apostles received this baptism as promised…
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Acts 2)What about my reference to 1 Peter 3:21 - is the “water” referenced in this passage *real water* or do you also deny this water reality? Peter plainly states..."eight souls were saved by water...the like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...". He refers to the water of the flood (H20) that separated Noah from the wicked world and he says this water is a picture of Christian baptism – “the answer of a good conscience to God” – where the baptismal water separates the believer from the non-believer as the believer publically “calls on the name of the Lord” as he is immersed in water - immersed “into Christ Jesus” –
“And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord” (Acts 22:16). Of course this all is possible only because of “the resurrection of Christ” - ie - salvation comes only through His blood. Baptism simply points the believer to the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord…to His death where He shed His blood…we are baptized “into His death” by the operation of the Holy Spirit as we are buried in water…and then we rise up out of the water a new creation in Christ (the new birth)…
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection (Rom 6:3-5).

genesisblu
Jun 21st 2008, 04:52 PM
Acts 19
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Acts 10
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Acts 11
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Both are examples of receiving the Holy Spirit, not through water baptism, but by baptism into the name of the Lord Jesus. Even Peter had forgotten the words that John baptizes with water but it is not through that which people receive the Holy Spirit it is through believing in the name of the Lord Jesus, that is being baptized into the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 2
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You can receive the Holy Spirit because of your believing, which is faith, before, during or after water baptism to deny that is to deny what is clearly shown in God's word. It is certainly not a lie to say that water baptism is a command and that we are to obey, just as is the command to obey the new law of love. But we are not saved: justified, made righteous, forgiven of our sins, or marked with His seal of the Holy Spirit by water baptism or obeying the law.

It is through our believing, our faith, in the grace of God, that He sent His son, who is God, to be a sacrifice for our sins, be buried and rise again (His baptism on the cross) that we are saved.

It is that baptism, His baptism on the cross, that is the antitype that saved Noah and his family that now saves us, that we become a part of through our belief, faith, in Christ that now saves us. It is not a water to water comparison, is it water comparing to Christ.

Joe King
Jun 21st 2008, 05:27 PM
Does water really cleanse you? Or does Jesus' blood cleanse you? I think you know the answer to this question and the answer is your answer.

genesisblu
Jun 21st 2008, 05:55 PM
The thief on the cross, for those who claim he did not need to be baptized because he was under OT, was not under OT. The thief died after Christ not before. They broke the legs of the thief to quicken his death for burial. They did not break the legs of Christ because He was already dead. When Christ died the "will" went into effect. Therefore it was faith that saved the thief, believing. Water, blood and the Spirit all present within the death of Christ. The three who testify, complete and present with Christ at the baptism of the cross. That is why we are complete in Christ upon our belief, faith. And why water is not necessary nor is any blood sacrifices.

John 19
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

Heb 9
17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
Heb 1
18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.

Luke 23
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

John 19
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

BroRog
Jun 21st 2008, 11:12 PM
"baptism doth also now save us..." It is the blood of Christ that completely saves and baptism is simply the “answer of a good conscience toward God” as a symbol of our cleansing through the blood of Christ. Baptism unites us with Christ as we are baptized into His death (Rom 6), i.e., baptism symbolizes Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection that the believer participates in when he/she is immersed in water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1 Pet 3:21)

Hi Losthorizon,

I note in Peter's words a purposeful correction in which he clarifies which "baptism" he means. The purification ritual, which involves taking a bath, does not save anyone. But the appeal toward God for a good conscience is what saves us.

Isn't that right?

Gillian
Jun 21st 2008, 11:34 PM
The Bible seems to teach that baptism saves us. However, I do not believe this is so. Unfortunately, I am still confused by some Bible verses. How do you explain these Bible verses?

1Pe 3:21 ESV Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Act 2:38 ESV And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Joh 3:5 ESV Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Act 22:16 ESV And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'

1Pe 3:21 ESV Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Please explain these verses. I don't understand how we are saved by faith alone when verses like these seem to imply that baptism saves us. Then there is also one other verse that seems to imply that we are not saved by faith alone:

Jas 2:24 ESV You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Help! :confused:help:

what I bold first verse answered it all really.

baptism is what anybody can do so anywhere. many faiths do different ways with water. baptism is earning works can be done by man hand anywhere.
salavtion is a unearned works only by grace by our mouth we are saved in Christ. Like it said in first verse does not remove dirt or our sins.

best exmaple we know is the thief on cross after defending then ask Christ to remember him, Jesus said you will be with me.

while baptism is not UNEARNED work that premit us to heaven
or without it mean we banned from heaven. I have any sympathy on anyone believeing it save him, who maybe in jail never baptism just got saved in Christ then killed, death pently, accident, died old age, no premit to baptism by some goverments etc Think he go to heaven still? Im pretty sure God will welcome him. any kind of circsumtances

faith save along with our works making sure in heart struggle against sins inwardly in face of that how hard it is, better we strike against sins in all possible if it mean want to be baptism why not? all the more better striking to continally in God or good cosuince of outward or earned works.

Gillian

fewarechosen
Jun 22nd 2008, 12:04 AM
gillian, brorog i think we are on the same page. :)

losthorizon
Jun 22nd 2008, 08:09 PM
Hi Losthorizon,

I note in Peter's words a purposeful correction in which he clarifies which "baptism" he means. The purification ritual, which involves taking a bath, does not save anyone. But the appeal toward God for a good conscience is what saves us.

Isn't that right?
Hi BroRog - I think we are on the same page although I wouldn't label it a "purposeful correction" but would rather think it was a "reflective clarification". For clarification purposes regarding my position please allow me to clarify further - I don’t think anyone on this thread denies the biblical fact that salvation is by God’s grace through faith – a faith that works through love for God. The relationship between baptism and salvation is completely dependant upon the resurrection of Christ – baptism points the believer to His death, burial and resurrection as we are baptized in water - baptized into His death – a vicarious death that is the foundation of our faith (Romans 6). Baptism is simply one of two ordinances given to the church by God and baptism marks the admission of the one baptized into the Lord’s church – ie – the penitent believer is ingrafted into Christ at the point of immersion in water baptized in the name of God..."baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ (Gal 3:27).

chsh
Jul 4th 2008, 01:21 AM
Hello. I would like to post a question

"Where does one go if he or she truly believes the Gospel, but dies before he or she can be baptized?"

To one who believes in baptismal regeneration, he must answer "Hell." Yet to do so clearly rejects the Gospel of grace and replaces it with one of works, which can never save.

To answer "Heaven" shows that one does not need to be baptized in order to be saved.

Against this argument a baptismal regenerist may ask, "What about the person who truly believes, but then dies before walking down the aisle and praying the ‘Sinner’s Prayer?’ Doesn’t this argument work the same way, but from the other side?"

No, it isn’t the same argument, because the person who truly believes but dies before they can say the Sinner’s Prayer is nonetheless saved and is going to Heaven.

Another response to the above question is, "I don’t know what happens, God is their judge." I've heard this response a fair amount of times and honestly, it is a cop-out.

If one teaches that baptism is essential for salvation, then one must be consistent and say that if one believes the Gospel, but dies before he or she is baptized, then that person goes to Hell. If something is essential, then it is essential, period. If it is not essential, then we have the teaching of two different "Gospels" at the same time, yet the Bible teaches that there is only one Gospel (Galatians 1:6-9).

On one occasion, I asked someone the above question and was given the answer that, "God would never allow that to happen." That is, if someone believed the Gospel, then God would see to it that this person would live until they were baptized. This is begging the question and does not have a shred of biblical evidence for its support.

In contrast, the true Gospel has no problem with such questions. The Gospel teaches that any person, anywhere, at any time, can come into a relationship with God by faith in the death and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. If this person dies even an instant after conversion, he or she will go into the presence of the Lord forever. No I’m-not-sures, no I-don’t-knows. This person is saved and is going to Heaven based on his or her faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.

coffee cup
Jul 4th 2008, 04:56 AM
The Bible seems to teach that baptism saves us. However, I do not believe this is so. Unfortunately, I am still confused by some Bible verses. How do you explain these Bible verses?

1Pe 3:21 ESV Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Act 2:38 ESV And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Joh 3:5 ESV Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Act 22:16 ESV And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'

1Pe 3:21 ESV Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Please explain these verses. I don't understand how we are saved by faith alone when verses like these seem to imply that baptism saves us. Then there is also one other verse that seems to imply that we are not saved by faith alone:

Jas 2:24 ESV You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Help! :confused:help:

Yes the bible does seem to teach baptism saves.-------------------
Titus 3:5-7 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
------

just as the bible seems to teach that there is no other name that we can be saved by except "Jesus'

just as the bible seems to teach That God is mighter and stronger than us humans .


JUST as the bible seems to teach that we are to have no other Gods before him.


Just as the bible seems to teach we are saved by works-- the work of Jesus alone that is.


Yes baptism saves because its Gods means of Grace that even Gives infants trust in their only savior from sin to --------Jesus


There is no other way any of us can be saved be we adult or infant
Jesus is the one and only way . Just as the bible seems to say.


a young christian seminary student
explains baptism---------for those interested the pdf file down loads quickly and from their site not your computer.
http://www.wlstheologia.net/node/5

Timothy2
Jul 4th 2008, 09:53 PM
In contrast, the true Gospel has no problem with such questions. The Gospel teaches that any person, anywhere, at any time, can come into a relationship with God by faith in the death and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. If this person dies even an instant after conversion, he or she will go into the presence of the Lord forever. No I’m-not-sures, no I-don’t-knows. This person is saved and is going to Heaven based on his or her faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.Amen! At the time the N.T. was being written faith and ritual, water baptism were intimately connected. When the message of Christ was accepted, by faith, people were shortly afterward baptized with water. Later, however, water baptism took on a life of its own with an inordinate emphasis put on the act itself, even apart from personal faith. For example, infant baptism with the false notion that such an act causes the forgiveness of "original sin," and regeneration in the newly born (a foundational doctrine of Catholicism). But the Scriptures are clear that salvation is "by grace, "through faith" and "not as a result of works," which baptism apart from from personal faith becomes.

Sjohn1107
Jul 5th 2008, 02:56 PM
All you who say baptism of water doesnt save..are totally CORRRECT!!!
People seem to misunderstand Acts 2:38...What peter was saying is change your ways and be baptised(cleansed by jesus through what he has done)..and repent is a change of heart..so repentence is part of what save's you..Jesus Christ IS what saves you by baptising by u with the holy spirit(cleaning you with his blood)..just read acts 10:43-45..so WATER is not what cleansed us(Jesus christ baptises us,through his name and what he did on the cross)because the scripture just proved that and all the scriptures have to fall in place(and water is not what jesus died for)..and some might quote Ephesians 4:5....One lord,One faith,one baptism..tick tock tick tock..And since there is only one god,who do u think is all the above???JESUS CHRIST IS..he is the way,the truth,and the light..and he has been saying this through the whole bible!!!Bottom line is baptism(of water) is works that was commanded by jesus christ dont get me wrong there..but we are saved even tho we do not get baptised by water cause..we already are baptised by his blood..why else would he tell paul and us to preach the gospel...

Joe King
Jul 5th 2008, 03:22 PM
People get baptized in the ocean, swimming pools, rivers, lakes. It's not the water that makes it special, it's the belief that Jesus Christ died for your sins!

The world is 80% water and so are our bodies. Does that make the world 80% holy and our body 80% pure? If it did, this world would be a much better place

Sjohn1107
Jul 5th 2008, 05:43 PM
People get baptized in the ocean, swimming pools, rivers, lakes. It's not the water that makes it special, it's the belief that Jesus Christ died for your sins!

The world is 80% water and so are our bodies. Does that make the world 80% holy and our body 80% pure? If it did, this world would be a much better place


Well put:)..water is from the earth..would you rather be saved by something from the earth?..or be saved by somebody who MADE the earth!...I don't know about you guy's but i would take the 2nd choice haha;)

Butch5
Jul 5th 2008, 10:02 PM
The Bible seems to teach that baptism saves us. However, I do not believe this is so. Unfortunately, I am still confused by some Bible verses. How do you explain these Bible verses?

1Pe 3:21 ESV Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Act 2:38 ESV And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Joh 3:5 ESV Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Act 22:16 ESV And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'

1Pe 3:21 ESV Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Please explain these verses. I don't understand how we are saved by faith alone when verses like these seem to imply that baptism saves us. Then there is also one other verse that seems to imply that we are not saved by faith alone:

Jas 2:24 ESV You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Help! :confused:help:

Hi Biblegirl,

These verse mean exactly what they say. Baptism is required for salvation. There is nowhere in the Bible that you will find a single Scripture that says we are saved by faith alone.

Joe King
Jul 5th 2008, 10:19 PM
Hi Biblegirl,

These verse mean exactly what they say. Baptism is required for salvation. There is nowhere in the Bible that you will find a single Scripture that says we are saved by faith alone.


Luke 7:50 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=7&verse=50&version=31&context=verse)
Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Luke 7:49-50 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=7&verse=49&end_verse=50&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Luke 7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=7&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

BrckBrln
Jul 5th 2008, 10:22 PM
Hi Biblegirl,

These verse mean exactly what they say. Baptism is required for salvation. There is nowhere in the Bible that you will find a single Scripture that says we are saved by faith alone.

We are saved by faith alone, but that faith is not alone. If that makes any sense.

Butch5
Jul 5th 2008, 10:29 PM
genesisblu---The thief on the cross, for those who claim he did not need to be baptized because he was under OT, was not under OT. The thief died after Christ not before. They broke the legs of the thief to quicken his death for burial. They did not break the legs of Christ because He was already dead. When Christ died the "will" went into effect. Therefore it was faith that saved the thief, believing. Water, blood and the Spirit all present within the death of Christ.


I beg to differ, the thief most definitely was saved under the OT covenant.

The thief was saved before Christ died.

Luke 23:43 ( KJV ) 43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The new covenant didn't begin until Christ died.

Butch5
Jul 5th 2008, 10:30 PM
We are saved by faith alone, but that faith is not alone. If that makes any sense.

Can you show me a single verse that states that?

BrckBrln
Jul 5th 2008, 10:34 PM
I beg to differ, the thief most definitely was saved under the OT covenant.

The thief was saved before Christ died.

Luke 23:43 ( KJV ) 43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The new covenant didn't begin until Christ died.

So the plan of Salvation has changed from the Old to the New Testament?

Butch5
Jul 5th 2008, 10:37 PM
Luke 7:50 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=7&verse=50&version=31&context=verse)
Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Luke 7:49-50 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=7&verse=49&end_verse=50&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Luke 7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=7&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—


Luke 7:50 was before the cross. Christ could save anyone he chose. He also saved others before the cross. Before His death He gave the command to make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That is how they were to make disciples after His death.

Ephesians 2:8 does not say you are saved by faith alone.


Romans 8:24 ( KJV ) 24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

This doesn't say faith, does that mean we are saved by hope but don't need faith?

Butch5
Jul 5th 2008, 10:40 PM
So the plan of Salvation has changed from the Old to the New Testament?

Not at all, we are required to follow God under both testaments.

BrckBrln
Jul 5th 2008, 10:40 PM
Can you show me a single verse that states that?

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24

I posted my reply in anticipation that someone would post this verse and say something like "the only time the Bible uses the words 'faith alone/only' is this verse which says we aren't saved by just faith". But this, of course, is wrong. We are saved by faith alone (as other verses clearly state), but this faith, if it's a genuine and saving faith, is not alone. Meaning it will produce works like baptism and the like, but it's not the works that save, it's the cause of the works - the faith, that actually saves you.

BrckBrln
Jul 5th 2008, 10:41 PM
Not at all, we are required to follow God under both testaments.

So all the people in the Old Testament had to be baptized in order to be saved as it is with the New?

givemegrace
Jul 5th 2008, 10:41 PM
I dont think this is what God would want us to be doing. Point scoring with verses from the Bible???? Cant you all agree to differ, is there not a passage in the Bible that tells us not to use scripture in this way??? I'm not sure, was trying to find it but cant. Anyway I come in peace and I am sure this will go down well!!!!! God Bless :bounce:

Butch5
Jul 5th 2008, 10:59 PM
So all the people in the Old Testament had to be baptized in order to be saved as it is with the New?

No, baptism wasn't a requirement under the OT.

Butch5
Jul 5th 2008, 11:08 PM
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24

I posted my reply in anticipation that someone would post this verse and say something like "the only time the Bible uses the words 'faith alone/only' is this verse which says we aren't saved by just faith". But this, of course, is wrong. We are saved by faith alone (as other verses clearly state), but this faith, if it's a genuine and saving faith, is not alone. Meaning it will produce works like baptism and the like, but it's not the works that save, it's the cause of the works - the faith, that actually saves you.


BrckBrln---I posted my reply in anticipation that someone would post this verse and say something like "the only time the Bible uses the words 'faith alone/only' is this verse which says we aren't saved by just faith". But this, of course, is wrong.

Why, what verses show that we are save only by faith?


BrckBrln---Meaning it will produce works like baptism and the like

According to Paul baptism is not a work.


Titus 3:5 ( KJV ) 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Paul says that we are saved by the washing of regeneration, this is baptism. You see Paul contrast this with works we have done, so baptism cannot be a work. According to Paul here God saved us through the washing of regeneration (baptism) and the renewing of the Holy Spirit. contrast this with what Jesus said, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit he cannot see the kingdom of God. It seems they are in agreement.

BrckBrln
Jul 5th 2008, 11:08 PM
No, baptism wasn't a requirement under the OT.

So the mode of Salvation has changed from the Old to the New Testament. In the OT baptism wasn't required but now, in the NT, it is. Is this correct?

BrckBrln
Jul 5th 2008, 11:16 PM
Titus 3:5 ( KJV ) 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

There is nothing here about water baptism. It simply says that at conversion, the Holy Spirit regenerates us and makes us new i.e. being born again. And baptism would fall under the 'works of righteousness' that we do.

Butch5
Jul 5th 2008, 11:33 PM
So the mode of Salvation has changed from the Old to the New Testament. In the OT baptism wasn't required but now, in the NT, it is. Is this correct?

Faith in God is the ultimate requirement for salvation, so what is faith? Most people say it is believing in Jesus an that is all. In the OT When Abraham was told by God to go out of His homeland, He went. Would He have been inherited the promises if He had not obeyed? I don't think so, How would god have given Him the land if Abraham never left His homeland? In the New Testament Jesus said He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Now do we expect that if you obey only half of what Jesus said we will be saved. Jesus said, He who keeps my commands, it is He who loves me. the one who does not keep Jesus commands does not love Him. So what is faith John uses the Greek word "Pisteuo" which has as one of it's definitions, to entrust oneself to. this definition means more than just believing, to entrust yourself to someone requires an action on the part of the individual. Pisteuo is the word that John uses throughout His gospel, He does not use the word faith, "Pistis" in the Greek. If you want to define faith as just believe and you will be saved, then you will not find this is in Scripture. If you define faith as all that Jesus commanded then you will find this in Scripture.

BrckBrln
Jul 5th 2008, 11:36 PM
Faith in God is the ultimate requirement for salvation, so what is faith? Most people say it is believing in Jesus an that is all. In the OT When Abraham was told by God to go out of His homeland, He went. Would He have been inherited the promises if He had not obeyed? I don't think so, How would god have given Him the land if Abraham never left His homeland? In the New Testament Jesus said He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Now do we expect that if you obey only half of what Jesus said we will be saved. Jesus said, He who keeps my commands, it is He who loves me. the one who does not keep Jesus commands does not love Him. So what is faith John uses the Greek word "Pisteuo" which has as one of it's definitions, to entrust oneself to. this definition means more than just believing, to entrust yourself to someone requires an action on the part of the individual. Pisteuo is the word that John uses throughout His gospel, He does not use the word faith, "Pistis" in the Greek. If you want to define faith as just believe and you will be saved, then you will not find this is in Scripture. If you define faith as all that Jesus commanded then you will find this in Scripture.

I agree that you can't just 'believe' and be saved. James says even the demons believe and we know they aren't saved. That's why I said that saving faith is not alone, it produces good works. Faith without works is dead. But we aren't saved by the effects - the works, we are saved by the cause - the faith.

Butch5
Jul 5th 2008, 11:42 PM
There is nothing here about water baptism. It simply says that at conversion, the Holy Spirit regenerates us and makes us new i.e. being born again. And baptism would fall under the 'works of righteousness' that we do.

The washing of regeneration is Baptism. This is contrasted with our works of righteousness so baptism cannot be a work.

If you doubt that baptism is necessary let me give you a quote from Ignatius. Ignatius was a disciple of the Apostle John. John taught Him.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Be ye subject to the bishop as to the Lord, for “he watches for your souls, as one that shall give account to God.” (Heb. 13:17) Wherefore also, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order that, by believing in His death, ye may by baptism be made partakers of His resurrection. It is therefore necessary, whatsoever things ye do, to do nothing without the bishop.

Butch5
Jul 5th 2008, 11:44 PM
I agree that you can't just 'believe' and be saved. James says even the demons believe and we know they aren't saved. That's why I said that saving faith is not alone, it produces good works. Faith without works is dead. But we aren't saved by the effects - the works, we are saved by the cause - the faith.


Again, you will have to define what you mean by faith.

BrckBrln
Jul 5th 2008, 11:53 PM
Again, you will have to define what you mean by faith.

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

The rest of the chapter describes faith and what it does. Faith not only involves knowledge, but assent and truth. In other words faith encompasses mind, emotions, and will. Simple knowledge of a few 'facts' won't save you if you don't do anything to show that you actually do believe. You have to surrender your life to Christ. Faith without works is dead. But works, including baptism, won't save you as it is the effect of what does i.e. faith.

BrckBrln
Jul 5th 2008, 11:55 PM
The washing of regeneration is Baptism. This is contrasted with our works of righteousness so baptism cannot be a work.

If you doubt that baptism is necessary let me give you a quote from Ignatius. Ignatius was a disciple of the Apostle John. John taught Him.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Be ye subject to the bishop as to the Lord, for “he watches for your souls, as one that shall give account to God.” (Heb. 13:17) Wherefore also, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order that, by believing in His death, ye may by baptism be made partakers of His resurrection. It is therefore necessary, whatsoever things ye do, to do nothing without the bishop.

So whatever Ignatius says is true because he was a disciple of John? I don't think so.

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 12:40 AM
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

The rest of the chapter describes faith and what it does. Faith not only involves knowledge, but assent and truth. In other words faith encompasses mind, emotions, and will. Simple knowledge of a few 'facts' won't save you if you don't do anything to show that you actually do believe. You have to surrender your life to Christ. Faith without works is dead. But works, including baptism, won't save you as it is the effect of what does i.e. faith.

You are defining baptism as works and Paul explicitly says that baptism is NOT a work of our righteousness. IF you are going to deny what the Scripture says then there is no basis for the conversation.

BrckBrln
Jul 6th 2008, 12:45 AM
You are defining baptism as works and Paul explicitly says that baptism is NOT a work of our righteousness. IF you are going to deny what the Scripture says then there is no basis for the conversation.

:lol: Where does Paul say that water baptism is not a work? And the last sentence of yours sounds very familiar. :hmm:

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 12:55 AM
So whatever Ignatius says is true because he was a disciple of John? I don't think so.

No. because Ignatius says it, doesn't make it true. Neither does the fact that you say it. However you are either getting your understanding from your interpretation of the Bible or you are reading modern commentaries.
Before the time of Martin Luther the church did not believe in faith alone.
So if you are getting you understanding from modern commentaries I ask you this, Who has a better understanding of the teachings of the apostles, Some one who lived at the same time, in the same culture, spoke the same language and may have actually heard the apostles teach, or someone who lived in a different culture, 1400 years later, never heard any of the apostles teach and spoke a completely different language? So who would have a better understanding of what John taught, Ignatius his disciple who was with Him or Martin Luther or John Calvin, who lived in a different part of the world, 1400 years later, if they knew the language, learned it 1400 years removed, and never heard any apostle teach. What you are claiming "faith alone" comes from Martin Luther and was expanded by John Calvin. I showed you 2 verses that explicitly state that we are saved by baptism and you rejected it in favor of faith alone, for which you cannot give me a single verse of support. this my friend is eisegesis. The early church is in agreement on this I could give you quotes covering over 200 years if you would like.

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 12:59 AM
:lol: Where does Paul say that water baptism is not a work? And the last sentence of yours sounds very familiar. :hmm:

I showed you,


Titus 3:5 ( KJV ) 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Paul says He (God) saved us, not by our works, but by the washing of regeneration. The washing of regeneration is baptism. Paul says this is how God saved us, not by our works.

BrckBrln
Jul 6th 2008, 01:00 AM
No. because Ignatius says it, doesn't make it true. Neither does the fact that you say it. However you are either getting your understanding from your interpretation of the Bible or you are reading modern commentaries.
Before the time of Martin Luther the church did not believe in faith alone.
So if you are getting you understanding from modern commentaries I ask you this, Who has a better understanding of the teachings of the apostles, Some one who lived at the same time, in the same culture, spoke the same language and may have actually heard the apostles teach, or someone who lived in a different culture, 1400 years later, never heard any of the apostles teach and spoke a completely different language? So who would have a better understanding of what John taught, Ignatius his disciple who was with Him or Martin Luther or John Calvin, who lived in a different part of the world, 1400 years later, if they knew the language, learned it 1400 years removed, and never heard any apostle teach. What you are claiming "faith alone" comes from Martin Luther and was expanded by John Calvin. I showed you 2 verses that explicitly state that we are saved by baptism and you rejected it in favor of faith alone, for which you cannot give me a single verse of support. this my friend is eisegesis. The early church is in agreement on this I could give you quotes covering over 200 years if you would like.

I don't think that just because you lived nearer to Jesus' time makes you right, or more right, than people who have lived in modern times. It's a weak argument to make in my opinion. And you have proved nothing nor have you given any verses that explicitly state that baptism is necessary. You rely on vague passages and half verses to support your opinion and disregard the rest of the Bible. Sorry, but if you are going to continue to do this then there is no basis for this conversation. :cool:

BrckBrln
Jul 6th 2008, 01:01 AM
The washing of regeneration is baptism.

Where does this verse say that? You wouldn't happen to be reading the physical act of water baptism into the verse, would you?

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 01:18 AM
I don't think that just because you lived nearer to Jesus' time makes you right, or more right, than people who have lived in modern times. It's a weak argument to make in my opinion. And you have proved nothing nor have you given any verses that explicitly state that baptism is necessary. You rely on vague passages and half verses to support your opinion and disregard the rest of the Bible. Sorry, but if you are going to continue to do this then there is no basis for this conversation. :cool:

Well, if you fell that I am incorrect please show me how. First, the argument for the early church is very strong. Are you telling me that Luther or Calvin could possibly have a better understanding than someone taught but the Apostle Himself? Luther and Calvin"s doctrines are refuted by Scripture repeatedly. Are you saying the the entire NT church for the first 200 years was wrong and those who came later are all right? What does that say of the apostles? Luther and Calvin had 1400 years of false teachings added to the church that they were dealing with.

How do I rely of vague passages and half verses? Tell me what rest of the Bible I have ignored, you have not yet given me any verses that state we are saved by faith alone? Please, if you think I am wrong, open the Scriptures and show me.

BrckBrln
Jul 6th 2008, 01:32 AM
How do I rely of vague passages and half verses? Tell me what rest of the Bible I have ignored, you have not yet given me any verses that state we are saved by faith alone? Please, if you think I am wrong, open the Scriptures and show me.

I guess it's time to go on the offense now that I've defended so well. :cool:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. Acts 10:43

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Romans 3:28

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Galatians 2:16

This is only a few, but remember that this faith is not alone. Just knowing a few 'facts' won't save you if you don't surrender to Christ. You surrender to Christ in faith and you produce good works. You don't first believe and then set out to do as many good works so that you might be saved. And baptism is a work, it's a work of righteousness.

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 01:34 AM
Where does this verse say that? You wouldn't happen to be reading the physical act of water baptism into the verse, would you?

How does a person become "in Christ"?

BrckBrln
Jul 6th 2008, 01:35 AM
How does a person become "in Christ"?

When one believes 'in Him'.

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 01:40 AM
I guess it's time to go on the offense now that I've defended so well. :cool:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. Acts 10:43

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Romans 3:28

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Galatians 2:16

This is only a few, but remember that this faith is not alone. Just knowing a few 'facts' won't save you if you don't surrender to Christ. You surrender to Christ in faith and you produce good works. You don't first believe and then set out to do as many good works so that you might be saved. And baptism is a work, it's a work of righteousness.

That's your offense? Anyone can use that logic. Not one of those verses says that baptism is not necessay.


Romans 8:24 ( KJV ) 24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

We saved by hope, I guess we don't need faith because this verse doesn't mention faith.


Ephesians 2:5 ( KJV ) 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Saved by grace, I guess we don't need faith because this verse doesn't mention faith.


1 Peter 3:21 ( KJV ) 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

baptism saves us, I guess we don't need faith because this verse doesn't mention faith.

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 6th 2008, 01:43 AM
I showed you,

Titus 3:5 ( KJV ) 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Paul says He (God) saved us, not by our works, but by the washing of regeneration. The washing of regeneration is baptism. Paul says this is how God saved us, not by our works.

That's not H20 water he is speaking of but the living water ...by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Baptism was spoke of by Ezekiel and this is not John's baptism as it is God that sprinkles the clean water, not man.

Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Ezekiel 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

I'm not one for accepting our early church leaders either but I don't read this as necessarily saying baptism in H20 water either. Also anywhere it is written to be subject to the biship, pope, preist or or any other man I would certainly warn against as we are to serve God only! That kind of text always alarms me!

Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Be ye subject to the bishop as to the Lord, for “he watches for your souls, as one that shall give account to God.” (Heb. 13:17) Wherefore also, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order that, by believing in His death, ye may by baptism be made partakers of His resurrection. It is therefore necessary, whatsoever things ye do, to do nothing without the bishop.

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

John 1:1 ...The Word was God. John 1:14 The Word became flesh...

Michael

coffee cup
Jul 6th 2008, 01:44 AM
All you who say baptism of water doesnt save..are totally CORRRECT!!!
People seem to misunderstand Acts 2:38...What peter was saying is change your ways and be baptised(cleansed by jesus through what he has done)..and repent is a change of heart..so repentence is part of what save's you..Jesus Christ IS what saves you by baptising by u with the holy spirit(cleaning you with his blood)..just read acts 10:43-45..so WATER is not what cleansed us(Jesus christ baptises us,through his name and what he did on the cross)because the scripture just proved that and all the scriptures have to fall in place(and water is not what jesus died for)..and some might quote Ephesians 4:5....One lord,One faith,one baptism..tick tock tick tock..And since there is only one god,who do u think is all the above???JESUS CHRIST IS..he is the way,the truth,and the light..and he has been saying this through the whole bible!!!Bottom line is baptism(of water) is works that was commanded by jesus christ dont get me wrong there..but we are saved even tho we do not get baptised by water cause..we already are baptised by his blood..why else would he tell paul and us to preach the gospel...








1 Peter 3:20-22

20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

BrckBrln
Jul 6th 2008, 01:45 AM
Not one of those verses says that baptism is not necessay.

The verses that say works aren't necessary are telling us that baptism, a work, is not necessary. And faith and hope, I would guess, are synonymous. 'Faith is the assurance of things hoped for'.

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 01:46 AM
When one believes 'in Him'.

Do you have scripture to support that?

BrckBrln
Jul 6th 2008, 01:52 AM
Do you have scripture to support that?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

coffee cup
Jul 6th 2008, 01:58 AM
That's your offense? Anyone can use that logic. Not one of those verses says that baptism is not necessay.


Romans 8:24 ( KJV ) 24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

We saved by hope, I guess we don't need faith because this verse doesn't mention faith.


Ephesians 2:5 ( KJV ) 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Saved by grace, I guess we don't need faith because this verse doesn't mention faith.


1 Peter 3:21 ( KJV ) 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

baptism saves us, I guess we don't need faith because this verse doesn't mention faith.


Titus 3:5-7 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.


1 Peter 3:20-22

20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 02:00 AM
That's not H20 water he is speaking of but the living water ...by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Baptism was spoke of by Ezekiel and this is not John's baptism as it is God that sprinkles the clean water, not man.

Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Ezekiel 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

I'm not one for accepting our early church leaders either but I don't read this as necessarily saying baptism in H20 water either. Also anywhere it is written to be subject to the biship, pope, preist or or any other man I would certainly warn against as we are to serve God only! That kind of text always alarms me!

Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Be ye subject to the bishop as to the Lord, for “he watches for your souls, as one that shall give account to God.” (Heb. 13:17) Wherefore also, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order that, by believing in His death, ye may by baptism be made partakers of His resurrection. It is therefore necessary, whatsoever things ye do, to do nothing without the bishop.

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

John 1:1 ...The Word was God. John 1:14 The Word became flesh...

Michael

So are we all dwelling in the middle east?

Ezekiel 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

This Prophecy was made to Israel, if you are going to claim it as a Prophecy to believers then you will need to show the connection.

Your verse from Luke is irrelevant, no one is talking about worshiping the bishop. Ignatius is telling them to submit to his leadership.

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

How does Christ cleanse the church? Through the washing of water, by what the word. The word is not Christ, notice the word is lower case. It is the gospel. The washing of water by the word, Baptism by the power of the word. The gospel says repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

As for the early church they are pretty much unanimous on this issue.

However so far no one has put for any Scripture that says one is saved by faith alone. Can you show that baptism is not required for salvation? Jesus said it is.

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 02:03 AM
The verses that say works aren't necessary are telling us that baptism, a work, is not necessary. And faith and hope, I would guess, are synonymous. 'Faith is the assurance of things hoped for'.

Can you show were the bible says that baptism is a work?

When Paul speaks of works He is speaking of the works of the law. If you are saying that anything we do is a work you will have a lot of Scripture to contend with.

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 02:05 AM
The verses that say works aren't necessary are telling us that baptism, a work, is not necessary. And faith and hope, I would guess, are synonymous. 'Faith is the assurance of things hoped for'.

Well Peter says that Baptim saves us. so then I guess that is a works based salvation?

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 02:07 AM
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

How does that say a person is "in Christ"? That just says someone who believes should not perish but have everlasting life.

How does a person become "in christ"?

BrckBrln
Jul 6th 2008, 02:10 AM
Jesus said it is.

Then I guess Jesus never practiced what he preached!

(though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples) John 4:2

And apparently Paul was a terrible disciple if he thanked God that he didn't baptize people, and even go so far as to say that Jesus didn't send him to baptize but to preach the Gospel.

I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. 1 Corinthians 1:14-17

BrckBrln
Jul 6th 2008, 02:13 AM
How does that say a person is "in Christ"? That just says someone who believes should not perish but have everlasting life.

How does a person become "in christ"?

Believes what? 'in Him'.

coffee cup
Jul 6th 2008, 02:35 AM
The verses that say works aren't necessary are telling us that baptism, a work, is not necessary. And faith and hope, I would guess, are synonymous. 'Faith is the assurance of things hoped for'.

Galatians 3:26-27

Sons of God
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.




Luke 7:30

30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)
John 3:5-6

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.






Romans 6:3
3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 6th 2008, 02:50 AM
So are we all dwelling in the middle east?

Ezekiel 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

This Prophecy was made to Israel, if you are going to claim it as a Prophecy to believers then you will need to show the connection.

The connection is obvious to me as it is God that washed them and us clean and not man.



Your verse from Luke is irrelevant, no one is talking about worshiping the bishop. Ignatius is telling them to submit to his leadership.

Yes it is irrelevant to this thread but you are using the quote and I never said anything about worshiping the bishop... only serving him and thinking they are serving God. The old I wll tell you what god wants and you don't need to go to him directly... classic early church teaching, that still goes on today!

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,



How does Christ cleanse the church? Through the washing of water, by what the word. The word is not Christ, notice the word is lower case. It is the gospel. The washing of water by the word, Baptism by the power of the word. The gospel says repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

I guess I disagree "The word is Christ". What do think this means "washing of water by the word" that some man said something and they were cleaned?

Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.



As for the early church they are pretty much unanimous on this issue.

However so far no one has put for any Scripture that says one is saved by faith alone. Can you show that baptism is not required for salvation? Jesus said it is.

You can produce no scripture that says that baptism in water H20 is required without adding that this what others believe... its not there. We are saved by faith, grace and mercy through the blood of the lamb.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Michael

BrckBrln
Jul 6th 2008, 02:55 AM
Galatians 3:26-27

Sons of God
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.




Luke 7:30

30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)
John 3:5-6

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.


You have got to stop making your posts that big. I can see them just fine when they are normal size.

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 6th 2008, 02:59 AM
You have got to stop making your posts that big. I can see them just fine when they are normal size.I was really hoping for the the crayon font and some colors. :lol:

Michael

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 03:12 AM
Then I guess Jesus never practiced what he preached!

(though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples) John 4:2

And apparently Paul was a terrible disciple if he thanked God that he didn't baptize people, and even go so far as to say that Jesus didn't send him to baptize but to preach the Gospel.

I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. 1 Corinthians 1:14-17

Yes, Paul tells you right there why He didn't baptize, He was sent to preach the gospel The others with Him baptized. The same with Jesus. If Paul had to baptize 3000 people, he would not be able to do much preaching. So Christ sent Him to preach and the others baptized. Also you have the issue that Paul was dealing with here. The people were dividing over who had baptized them and Paul said he was glad that He did not baptize unless people should think that He baptized in His own name.

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 03:17 AM
Believes what? 'in Him'.

I says one believes in Him, not htat one "is" in HIm.

BrckBrln
Jul 6th 2008, 03:22 AM
I says one believes in Him, not htat one "is" in HIm.

Check out John 15. Abide in Him.

cdo
Jul 6th 2008, 03:24 AM
Hey Biblegirl,
I'd like to introduce myself to you: I'm cdo and I'm new
here.I'd like to share with you about Baptism and Saved.
They certainly go together but ,1st remember when Jesus was crucified, He was on the Cross with two other
men and what Jesus said to the one who said remember me Lord when you come into Your Kingdom.Jesus said TODAY YOU WILL BE IN PARIDISE WITH ME !!!
Ok ,he repented and was saved because he believed Jesus,
but not baptised.
So here Jesus is crucified,He rises 3 days later.In reference to the Book of Jonah...3 days in the belly of the whale.This is the only sign Jesus gave,however it says also
Jesus was in the depth of the earth.Jesus rose 3 days latter.
Baptism after you choose to follow Christ is showing
your life being baptised in Jesus Christ is symbolic of the death and rising again with Jesus,you are a new creature
in Christ knowing you also will rise when Jesus gathers
His Children Together.

Be Blessed Always
cdo :pp

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 03:40 AM
Michael---The connection is obvious to me as it is God that washed them and us clean and not man.

Are we all living in the promised land? The promise you quoted say that we will be in the promised land. The land given to Abraham. this promise was made to Israel. Yes god made the promise but that does not mean it is to believers, and you have not proven that it is.




Michael---Yes it is irrelevant to this thread but you are using the quote and I never said anything about worshiping the bishop... only serving him and thinking they are serving God. The old I wll tell you what god wants and you don't need to go to him directly... classic early church teaching, that still goes on today!

Well, you have just shown that you do not know what the early church taught. By the early church I mean before the Council of Nicea, before the roman Catholic church. I am referring to the churches founded by the apostles.


Michael---Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

I guess I disagree "The word is Christ". What do think this means "washing of water by the word" that some man said something and they were cleaned?

You can disagree if you want to, however here is the definition of the Greek word used for "word" in Eph 5:26. It does not mean Christ.

Thayer Definition:
1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word 1a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning 1b) speech, discourse 1b1) what one has said 1c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one’s mind made in words) 1c1) an utterance 1c2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative 1c2a) concerning some occurrence 2) subject matter of speech, thing spoken of 2a) so far forth as it is a matter of narration 2b) so far as it is a matter of command 2c) a matter of dispute, case at law

Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

G4487 ῥῆμα rhēma hray'-mah From G4483; an utterance (individually, collectively or specifically); by implication a matter or topic (especially of narration, command or dispute); with a negative naught whatever:—+ evil, + nothing, saying, word.



Michael---1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

This verse is speaking of believers not people being saved.


Michael---1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Notice here Word is capitalized because here Word is Jesus.



Michael---You can produce no scripture that says that baptism in water H20 is required without adding that this what others believe... its not there. We are saved by faith, grace and mercy through the blood of the lamb.

Is that right?

Mark 16:16 ( KJV ) 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Michael---Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


No one said grace was not required

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 03:43 AM
Check out John 15. Abide in Him.

To abide, means to remain. So one has to be "in Chirst" to abide.

BrckBrln
Jul 6th 2008, 03:50 AM
Mark 16:16 ( KJV ) 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

He that believeth and lives in Kansas shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mark 16:16 simply says that all who believe and are baptized will be saved and the people who don't believe are damned. Notice there is no mention of baptism in the second half of the verse. What do both parts of the verse have in common? Belief. If you believe and are baptized you will be saved, just like if you believe and live in Kansas you will be saved. And everybody who doesn't believe is damned.

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 04:04 AM
He that believeth and lives in Kansas shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mark 16:16 simply says that all who believe and are baptized will be saved and the people who don't believe are damned. Notice there is no mention of baptism in the second half of the verse. What do both parts of the verse have in common? Belief. If you believe and are baptized you will be saved, just like if you believe and live in Kansas you will be saved. And everybody who doesn't believe is damned.

It amazes me the length people will go to deny the Scriptures. The person who doesn't believe is not going to get baptized.

It's like saying, he who has a car and buys gas is going to drive, but He who does not buy gas is not going to drive. It doesn't matter if he has a car or not, if he doesn't buy gas he is not going to drive. It's the same thing. The one who believes and is baptized shall be saved. if a person doesn't believe it doesn't matter whether he is baptized or not he won't be saved.

Belief is a prerequisite for being baptized. If there is no belief, there is no salvation regardless of baptism.

You can argue this all you want but you must deny Jesus words to do so. Jesus said He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.

BrckBrln
Jul 6th 2008, 04:15 AM
You can argue this all you want but you must deny Jesus words to do so. Jesus said He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.

And I fully agree with Jesus on this one. But we can't just base a doctrine on one single verse in a disputed passage of scripture. The rest of the Bible repeatedly states salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. Baptism is a work whether you believe it or not. It is something we physically do therefore it is a work. It is also something that somebody can boast about. Remember that God saves us, we don't save ourselves by getting baptized.

Saying you have to be baptized to gain salvation is no different than a muslim who believes they have to martyr themselves to go to heaven. It's a works based salvation. Salvation by grace through faith is what makes Christianity unique and true. This way people on their death beds can actually get saved along with the people who never had the chance to get baptized.

coffee cup
Jul 6th 2008, 04:20 AM
You have got to stop making your posts that big. I can see them just fine when they are normal size.


evidently you do have trouble seeing the bible passages so i may have to Go much much larger !

especialy when you still think baptism is a work!~!~!

you better watch a baptism again
The person being baptized is not doing nothing .

I watch babies all the time being baptized there doing absolutly nothing some may be crying some laughing at the time .

baptism is nothing but pure Gospel of Jesus

In fact the only one that does any thing is the pastor he pours water and says Gods name .

According to you one could say some one coming to faith through a pastor preaching the bare word is a work of that person also.

because again the person coming to faith did nothing But the pastor worked his voice .

Sjohn1107
Jul 6th 2008, 04:40 AM
Titus 3:5-7 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.


1 Peter 3:20-22

20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.







I hope you are not referring this to me(i apoligize if you arent)..because if it was toward me..your whole argument about water baptism just proved it self wrong..read that verse again carefully..and you might wanna look at that last part too haha..but truly im not trying to take sides but i'm just tellin the truth..i just read you othe staament sayin"Baptism is not works and we should watch it again"when you do anything outwardly in the flesh it's works and you can't give life to the flesh from the flesh..the moment you repent and ask jesus CHRIST in your life is the moment your saved..i'm gonna leave the fussing up to u..but your not arguing with me..but your arguing with GOD and HIS scriptures!

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 6th 2008, 05:02 AM
Quote:
Michael---You can produce no scripture that says that baptism in water H20 is required without adding that this what others believe... its not there. We are saved by faith, grace and mercy through the blood of the lamb.
Is that right?

Mark 16:16 ( KJV ) 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.



Did you miss my point ? "You can produce no scripture that says that baptism in water H20 is required" it only says baptized and does not mention water H20.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Michael---The connection is obvious to me as it is God that washed them and us clean and not man.

Butch5
What has that got to do with the promissed land?

Michael

Sjohn1107
Jul 6th 2008, 05:08 AM
[/quote]especialy when you still think baptism is a work!~!~!

you better watch a baptism again
The person being baptized is not doing nothing .

I watch babies all the time being baptized there doing absolutly nothing some may be crying some laughing at the time .

baptism is nothing but pure Gospel of Jesus

In fact the only one that does any thing is the pastor he pours water and says Gods name .

According to you one could say some one coming to faith through a pastor preaching the bare word is a work of that person also.

because again the person coming to faith did nothing But the pastor worked his voice .[/quote]




:rofl:..you really do need to stop with these points(i'm not trying to make fun of you or anything) but what you are telling is quite differnt from what the bible teaches and tells..so what your saying is the pastor does the work for us?Your saying that jesus christ WORk on the cross means nothing?LISTEN TO ME..Getting dunked in some water while somebody prays for you is not faith for you at all..what if satan came and went to the church and he wanted to get baptised by water(he believes and knows jesus christ died for our sins and he knows he is the son of god) but what he does NOT know is jesus grace and he does not have a relationship with him...

Tourist
Jul 6th 2008, 05:11 AM
And I fully agree with Jesus on this one. But we can't just base a doctrine on one single verse in a disputed passage of scripture. The rest of the Bible repeatedly states salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. Baptism is a work whether you believe it or not. It is something we physically do therefore it is a work. It is also something that somebody can boast about. Remember that God saves us, we don't save ourselves by getting baptized.

Saying you have to be baptized to gain salvation is no different than a muslim who believes they have to martyr themselves to go to heaven. It's a works based salvation. Salvation by grace through faith is what makes Christianity unique and true. This way people on their death beds can actually get saved along with the people who never had the chance to get baptized.
Excellent point, I agree completely. And I think Paul does too. In Romans when he is adressing Israel's unbelief, he describes their problem like this:
Romans 9 30-32:
30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.

Being baptised is not faith, it is an expression of faith.

Beantown
Jul 6th 2008, 05:48 AM
He that believeth and lives in Kansas shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mark 16:16 simply says that all who believe and are baptized will be saved and the people who don't believe are damned. Notice there is no mention of baptism in the second half of the verse. What do both parts of the verse have in common? Belief. If you believe and are baptized you will be saved, just like if you believe and live in Kansas you will be saved. And everybody who doesn't believe is damned.

Hi Brck Brin,
My reply is just a coincidence. I'm certainly not picking on you!
Jesus says "belief and baptism". If this is what Jesus said, you shouldn't change the words or the meaning.

Keep in mind here that Jesus is talking to the same people at the same time. He is speaking of two different events. One of them is "being saved" and the other event is "condemned".

Please note:
1) Baptism and believing will save you.
2) Not believing will condemn you.

What does these points indicate:
1) If you don't believe you are condemned.
2) One can be baptised and still not be a believer.
3) There is nothing in these Scriptures that says you must be a believer to be baptised.
4) Jesus doesn't have to mention "baptism in the second half of the Scripture, because he's talking to the same people.


Beantown

coffee cup
Jul 6th 2008, 06:03 AM
[quote=Tourist;1698927]Excellent point, I agree completely. And I think Paul does too. In Romans when he is adressing Israel's unbelief, he describes their problem like this:
Romans 9 30-32:
30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.

---------------------------------------------------------------


i Dont need to explain away the verses like you. I let them stand on their own Merit !!!!They are Gods word.






Ephesians 4:5-6

5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

1 Peter 3:20-22

20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.





Titus 3:5-7 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

Romans 6:3
3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?


Galatians 3:26-27
Galatians 3:26-27
Sons of God
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.



Ephesians 5:25-26

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,


Luke 7:30

30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)
John 3:5-6

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Tourist
Jul 6th 2008, 06:15 AM
[quote=coffee cup;1698971
"i Dont need to explain away the verses like you. I let them stand on their own Merit !!!!They are Gods word."

Its a forum, I am allowed to discuss;)

coffee cup
Jul 6th 2008, 06:21 AM
[quote=coffee cup;1698971
"i Dont need to explain away the verses like you. I let them stand on their own Merit !!!!They are Gods word."

Its a forum, I am allowed to discuss;)

but why do you have to discuss Gods word in a higher Critical way.
why can't you discuss it in a historical gramatical way?

which method is more loving?

http://www.wlsessays.net/authors/B/BaumannBiblical/BaumannBiblical.PDF

PilgrimPastor
Jul 6th 2008, 08:12 AM
the short answer...

Faith saves, water makes one wet. Baptism is an important act of obedience and in identifying with Christ publicly etc., but grace alone is the source of salvation and faith is the only activity required on our part to receive it.

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 01:05 PM
And I fully agree with Jesus on this one. But we can't just base a doctrine on one single verse in a disputed passage of scripture. The rest of the Bible repeatedly states salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. Baptism is a work whether you believe it or not. It is something we physically do therefore it is a work. It is also something that somebody can boast about. Remember that God saves us, we don't save ourselves by getting baptized.

Saying you have to be baptized to gain salvation is no different than a muslim who believes they have to martyr themselves to go to heaven. It's a works based salvation. Salvation by grace through faith is what makes Christianity unique and true. This way people on their death beds can actually get saved along with the people who never had the chance to get baptized.

You don't fully agree with Jesus, you say baptism isn't necessary Jesus said it is. You have done nothing yet to prove that baptism is a work, I have shown that Paul did not consider baptism to be a work, however you deny this in favor of your interpretation. Also the same can be said of faith. Having faith is something you must do, therefore it is a work based on your definition. So your analogy of the Muslim can also be use for faith.

No one is basing doctrine on single disputed verse. There is not dispute about the verse, it is clear what it says. If you don't believe it that does not mean it is disputed. Secondly it is not based on one verse there are multiple verses that state this,

1 Peter 3:19-21
Mark 16:15-16
Titus 3:5
John 3:4-5

As I told you before, if you study what was going on during the time of the apostles you will see that Paul is not saying that we do nothing in salvation, He is saying that no one can be saved by the works of the law.


Galatians 2:11-18 ( KJV ) 11But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

So, you see, a lot of the Jews were trying to make the gentiles get circumcised and Paul says "if you live after the manner of the gentiles why are you compelling the gentiles to live as Jews". In another words, If the Jews can't be justified by works why compel the gentiles to be justified by works.

These are the works in Ephesians 2:8, not any physical thing that some one does.

Is Paul speaking of a works salvation here?

Romans 2:4-10 ( KJV ) 4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

They are seeking eternal life by doing good. they are seeking to be saved by doing good. Is this works salvation? Paul says God will render to very man according to his deeds.

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 01:17 PM
Did you miss my point ? "You can produce no scripture that says that baptism in water H20 is required" it only says baptized and does not mention water H20.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Michael---The connection is obvious to me as it is God that washed them and us clean and not man.

Butch5
What has that got to do with the promissed land?

Michael


Michael, what does baptized with the Holy Spirit mean?


Michael---
Butch5
What has that got to do with the promissed land?


Read the passage you quoted from Ezekiel.


Ezekiel 36:25-28 ( KJV ) 25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

This prophecy is not about us, It says "and ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers." That is the land promised to Abraham in Genesis. We do not live in that land.

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 01:24 PM
the short answer...

Faith saves, water makes one wet. Baptism is an important act of obedience and in identifying with Christ publicly etc., but grace alone is the source of salvation and faith is the only activity required on our part to receive it.


Please show me a single verse that indicates baptism is to be doe as an act of obedience.

Sjohn1107
Jul 6th 2008, 01:46 PM
Please show me a single verse that indicates baptism is to be doe as an act of obedience.

Read the great comission my dear friend..this is the only scripture where jesus tells us that we should make disciples of all nations and baptise(by water but he says nothing about it affecting salvation)...and that's what he told us believers to do..so it's a command...

Joe King
Jul 6th 2008, 03:57 PM
Let's start baptizing the unbeleivers so they can enjoy heaven too! Let's just pour water on them!

genesisblu
Jul 6th 2008, 04:56 PM
For those who believe water baptism is salvific:

What two physical elements were required to cover people?

Why do you think what Christ did alone on the cross and with His resurrection wasn't enough?

Sjohn1107
Jul 6th 2008, 05:25 PM
I just got baptised by(water) today..and you know what i felt???..WET and it still didn't give me the security that jesus christ gave me when i believed in him and placed my trust in him and asked him to forgive me for my sins 2 years ago..you know why?because the moment i believed in trusted in him is when i got saved<<<<Now That was a good feeling and my whole life changed that day and not today..i was just expressing my thankfullness and love,for what jesus has done for me in the inside and outside..by gettiing baptized(by water) today...but it never boosted my salvation or took away from it..So telling people that they are gonna get saved by water works is just wrong..Baptism is A SYMBOL...

-God Bless-

BrckBrln
Jul 6th 2008, 07:12 PM
Having faith is something you must do

And here is where you are wrong. Salvation is something God does. Faith and Repentance are gifts from God to people who don't deserve it, like me and you.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8

And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth. 2 Timothy 2:24-25

Salvation is of the Lord, not man being dunked in water.

BrckBrln
Jul 6th 2008, 07:14 PM
Baptism is A SYMBOL...

Exactly. People in the OT weren't saved by their sacrifices as they were just symbols of what was to come. And now, we aren't saved by a symbol of what has already happened.

PilgrimPastor
Jul 6th 2008, 07:52 PM
Please show me a single verse that indicates baptism is to be doe as an act of obedience.

Single verse proof-texting is what has you in trouble in this issue to begin with. You need to view baptism, as with other doctrines, in light of the whole counsel of the Word of God; not just one Scripture. This is called an inductive approach to biblical interpretation. There are themes and motifs throughout the Scripture that point to other themes and motifs.

The foundation for salvation is God's grace according to faith in the work of the Cross - alone. Baptism is important but to suggest that one must be baptized to be saved is to place a physical element in the place of the grace of God on the Cross. If I must be baptized then with what kind of water? Where must it come from? Must it be blessed properly and by whom? Sounds an awful lot like the mystical-hyper-sacramentalism of the middle ages to me...

Be baptized for the remission of sins does not mean that the water of baptism literally washes away your sin, it means that it is a part of a picture of identification with Christ. Baptism is symbolic. Christ's blood alone is efficacious for salvation.

"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." (1 John 1:7 NKJV)

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 09:07 PM
Read the great comission my dear friend..this is the only scripture where jesus tells us that we should make disciples of all nations and baptise(by water but he says nothing about it affecting salvation)...and that's what he told us believers to do..so it's a command...

So, Jesus said nothing here about baptism being for salvation, so that means baptism has nothing to do with salvation? The apostles at this point were with Jesus for 3 years they had been baptizing for most of that entire time. The apostles knew all of the ins and outs of what baptism was. There was no need to go into details with the apostles. Let me ask you, when one of your kids says to you, can I watch TV? Do you say to them sure. Go get the remote, find the button that says power and press it, wait a second or two for the TV to come on. When it does, see what channel it is on, then either enter the number for the channel you want to watch or press the up or down arrow to scroll through the channels. Once you find the channel you want to watch, find the volume button and press to either raise or lower the volume, then sit down and watch your program. NO, you don't say that because they already know how to operate the TV, you just tell them yes or no. Well my friend, it was the same with the apostles, they already knew what baptism meant.

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 09:11 PM
I just got baptised by(water) today..and you know what i felt???..WET and it still didn't give me the security that jesus christ gave me when i believed in him and placed my trust in him and asked him to forgive me for my sins 2 years ago..you know why?because the moment i believed in trusted in him is when i got saved<<<<Now That was a good feeling and my whole life changed that day and not today..i was just expressing my thankfullness and love,for what jesus has done for me in the inside and outside..by gettiing baptized(by water) today...but it never boosted my salvation or took away from it..So telling people that they are gonna get saved by water works is just wrong..Baptism is A SYMBOL...

-God Bless-

You can believe whatever you want, if you want to deny the scripture that is your decision. However if I had no Scripture to support my ideas I won't not be arguing with people who are giving scripture for support.

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 09:12 PM
For those who believe water baptism is salvific:

What two physical elements were required to cover people?

Why do you think what Christ did alone on the cross and with His resurrection wasn't enough?


Why do you suppose we think that what Christ did was not enough?

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 09:19 PM
BrckBrln---And here is where you are wrong. Salvation is something God does. Faith and Repentance are gifts from God to people who don't deserve it, like me and you.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8

You need to look at that verse again, Grace is the gift being spoken of not faith


BrckBrln---And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth. 2 Timothy 2:24-25

Notice Paul is saying this about those who are in opposition to the truth not those seeking it.


BrckBrln---Salvation is of the Lord, not man being dunked in water.


You keep saying baptism doesn't save, just because you say it, doesn't mean it is true.

genesisblu
Jul 6th 2008, 09:20 PM
Why do you suppose we think that what Christ did was not enough?

Because it appears as though you feel you must add something to it to secure your salvation.

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 09:39 PM
PilgrimPastor---Single verse proof-texting is what has you in trouble in this issue to begin with. You need to view baptism, as with other doctrines, in light of the whole counsel of the Word of God; not just one Scripture. This is called an inductive approach to biblical interpretation. There are themes and motifs throughout the Scripture that point to other themes and motifs.

The foundation for salvation is God's grace according to faith in the work of the Cross - alone. Baptism is important but to suggest that one must be baptized to be saved is to place a physical element in the place of the grace of God on the Cross. If I must be baptized then with what kind of water? Where must it come from? Must it be blessed properly and by whom? Sounds an awful lot like the mystical-hyper-sacramentalism of the middle ages to me...


You show your confusion in the modern doctrines of men. No one is proof texting my friend. I have given multiple Scripture verses I have given evidence from the early church and could give boat loads more. Actually if you studied the doctrines of the apostles and the early Christians you would find out how far you are from what Christ actually taught. You would find that your doctrine of "FAITH ALONE" comes form Martin Luther and dates to the 1500's. Before that NO ONE (Believers) held to faith alone. So, was the entire church wrong for 1400 years, and all of a sudden, one man came along and discovered the TRUE DOCTRINES of the Bible? The doctrine of faith alone that you claim, does not have a single verse of support in Scripture.

What exactly is the work of the cross alone?




PilgrimPastor---Be baptized for the remission of sins does not mean that the water of baptism literally washes away your sin,

Then what is it that washes away your sins?


PilgrimPastor---Christ's blood alone is efficacious for salvation.

"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." (1 John 1:7 NKJV)


How exactly does the blood of Christ cleanse us from all sin?

Butch5
Jul 6th 2008, 09:42 PM
Because it appears as though you feel you must add something to it to secure your salvation.

On the contrary, the Scripture requires it. If Scripture didn't say it I wouldn't do it. There is nowhere that Scripture says I can be saved without baptism.

BrckBrln
Jul 6th 2008, 10:15 PM
You need to look at that verse again, Grace is the gift being spoken of not faith

Nope.

Some point to the “grace” (v. 8) by which we have been saved. But the word “grace,” like “faith,” is also feminine in gender. Therefore, if “that” which is not of ourselves cannot refer to “faith,” far less can it refer to “grace,” which has the added liability of being even farther removed in the sentence from the pronoun “that”. Clearly the “gift” of God is salvation in its totality, a salvation that flows out of God’s grace and becomes ours through faith. Sam Storms

When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life. Acts 11:18

calidog
Jul 6th 2008, 11:27 PM
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Sjohn1107
Jul 6th 2008, 11:40 PM
You can believe whatever you want, if you want to deny the scripture that is your decision. However if I had no Scripture to support my ideas I won't not be arguing with people who are giving scripture for support.

I already gave you scriptures in my previous posts..and you quoted the scripture b4 on this thread that said baptism is a symbol and you wrote it in BIG bold letters..but like i said this case is closed..i have nothing else to prove on this subject..cause the bible says plenty about it..and i hope you to study it more and one day get more understanding..i will pray to god to give you understanding on this cause i know u don't mean any harm friend...

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 12:28 AM
Nope.

Some point to the “grace” (v. 8) by which we have been saved. But the word “grace,” like “faith,” is also feminine in gender. Therefore, if “that” which is not of ourselves cannot refer to “faith,” far less can it refer to “grace,” which has the added liability of being even farther removed in the sentence from the pronoun “that”. Clearly the “gift” of God is salvation in its totality, a salvation that flows out of God’s grace and becomes ours through faith. Sam Storms

When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life. Acts 11:18

Well it msut be right if Sam Storm says it.

BrckBrln
Jul 7th 2008, 12:30 AM
Well it msut be right if Sam Storm says it.

No, of course not, it's only when you say it that it's right. :rolleyes:

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 12:31 AM
I already gave you scriptures in my previous posts..and you quoted the scripture b4 on this thread that said baptism is a symbol and you wrote it in BIG bold letters..but like i said this case is closed..i have nothing else to prove on this subject..cause the bible says plenty about it..and i hope you to study it more and one day get more understanding..i will pray to god to give you understanding on this cause i know u don't mean any harm friend...

That was not me who wrote in big bold letters. I appreciate your prayers for understanding however you need to direct them to yourself. I have studied baptism extensively.

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 12:32 AM
No, of course not, it's only when you say it that it's right. :rolleyes:

I don't say it, Scripture does.

BrckBrln
Jul 7th 2008, 12:44 AM
I don't say it, Scripture does.

So what did Sam Storms get wrong?

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 01:15 AM
To all of you who say baptism is not required for salvation, nowhere in the NT, did the writers give us a checklist of conditions for salvation, consider the writers of the New Testament.

Jesus said,

Mark 16:16 ( KJV ) 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Peter said,

Acts 2:38 ( KJV ) 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Paul said,

Romans 10:10 ( KJV ) 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John said,

John 3:36 ( KJV ) 36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

So, from these verses we see that Jesus says belief and baptism are necessary for salvation. Peter said repentance and baptism, John said belief and Paul said belief and confession. So according to then we have 4 conditions.

1. Belief
2. Baptism
3. Repentance
4. confession

Now I know you guys are going to start yelling no, no, no. If you say no, then you take authority from the writer. Each of these writers and Jesus were inspired by God, they wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, so to deny the authority of these writers is to deny the authority of God.

This also happens elsewhere in the NT, as the women went to the tomb.

If Paul is speaking of faith and says you are saved by faith, that would not exclude any other requirements. If I asked you what is in your car? Are you going to say my coffee, my coat, my keys, a starter, a manifold, a battery, an engine, carpet, the front windshield? No, I already know about the starter and the manifold and the windshield etc., you are going to tell me what is in your car relative to what our discussion is about. So, just because every condition is not mentioned every time, does not mean, that the time they are not mentioned is contradictory to the time they are. Let's look at this,
John Says Mary Magdalene went to the sepulchre,
John 20:1 ( KJV ) 1The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
John says Mary Magdalene went to the sepulchre, Was she the only one?

Matthew 28:1 ( KJV ) 1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Matthew says Mary Magdelene and the other Mary went to the sepulchre. John didn't mention the other Mary, does that mean she didn't go to the sepulchre?

Mark 16:1-2 ( KJV ) 1And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. 2And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

Mark says, that Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Salome went to the sepulchre. John and Matthew say nothing of Salome going to the sepulchre, does that mean Salome wasn't there?

Luke 24:1 ( KJV ) 1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
Luke says the woman who stood afar off came the first day of the week and certain others with them. John and Matthew don't mention any other women, Luke says they were there.

So, the point is each author doesn't give us a list of who was there, they mention those who make their point. Just because John doesn't mention the other Mary that doesn't mean she wasn't there, just because John and Matthew don't mention Salome doesn't mean she wasn't there. So does that mean there are contradictions in the Scriptures? NO. It just means that not every author mentioned every person who was at the tomb. The same is true when speaking of salvation, the authors are not writing a list of requirements of conditions for salvation, they are writing letters to their readers regarding issues that the readers are dealing with. The readers already understand salvation so there is no need to give them a list of conditions. Paul was dealing with the issue of the Jews trying to make the gentile get circumcised so Paul stressed that salvation is by faith not works, not works of the law. Peter was dealing with the Jews who had crucified Jesus, when He preach at pentecost they believed and asked what must we do? He said repent and be baptized. John was dealing with the Jews rejecting Christ, so He told them to believe (entrust themselves to Christ). Who and what was being addressed must be considered whenever you study the Scriptures. To just take Ephesians 2:8 and say Paul said not of works, therefore anything we do is a work is to take Paul's statements to the Ephesians out of context.

JohnD777
Jul 7th 2008, 01:17 AM
...oh well.

Of the many denominations I came from in my 42 years as a believer in Christ, the Southern Baptist Convention was what I was in at the time I began to take the Bible seriously. And my mentor (the late Walter Martin) was also Baptist. So, I am not coming out against the Baptists or their strongly held beliefs on water baptism when I say that the only required baptism for salvation is the baptism of the Holy Spirit (i.e. faith in Jesus).

John the Baptist said:

Matthew 3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Mark 1:8 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16 John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

John 1:33 I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’

Acts 1:5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 11:16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Now if the Holy Spirit (who wrote the Bible 2 Peter 1:20-21) saw fit to make this point so many times, then we must consider this distinction / comparison / juxtaposition along with any other verse that might seem to indicate water baptism is necessary for salvation.

One last point, if we set our sights and our hopes on Christ rather than our local church / denomination / etc. we will be less often wounded in theological discussions / confrontations... and we will get to the truth a lot sooner and far more often... and we will find we will be unified with far more believers than before.

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 01:19 AM
So what did Sam Storms get wrong?

I'm not worried about Sam Strong, You can follow men if you choose to.

Have you said how one gets "in Christ"? If you did I missed it.

BrckBrln
Jul 7th 2008, 01:27 AM
I'm not worried about Sam Strong, You can follow men if you choose to.

Have you said how one gets "in Christ"? If you did I missed it.

:rolleyes: Don't be like that. If you can't tell me where he is wrong then I am forced to believe he is right. And as I said before you become 'in Christ' when you believe 'in Him'. You don't have to get dunked in water to be somehow conjoined with Christ, as if water has a magic effect.

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 01:28 AM
...oh well.

Of the many denominations I came from in my 42 years as a believer in Christ, the Southern Baptist Convention was what I was in at the time I began to take the Bible seriously. And my mentor (the late Walter Martin) was also Baptist. So, I am not coming out against the Baptists or their strongly held beliefs on water baptism when I say that the only required baptism for salvation is the baptism of the Holy Spirit (i.e. faith in Jesus).

John the Baptist said:

Matthew 3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Mark 1:8 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16 John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

John 1:33 I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’

Acts 1:5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 11:16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Now if the Holy Spirit (who wrote the Bible 2 Peter 1:20-21) saw fit to make this point so many times, then we must consider this distinction / comparison / juxtaposition along with any other verse that might seem to indicate water baptism is necessary for salvation.

One last point, if we set our sights and our hopes on Christ rather than our local church / denomination / etc. we will be less often wounded in theological discussions / confrontations... and we will get to the truth a lot sooner and far more often... and we will find we will be unified with far more believers than before.

Your first 4 quotes are of the same thing. The other two talk of Pentecost. I have a question for you, You claim belief in Jesus is the baptism of the Spirit. How come the 3000 added to the church at Pentecost did not receive the Spirit when they believed? How come the 12 that Paul came upon in the book of Acts did not receive the spirit when they believed? How come Paul didn't receive the Spirit when He believed?

PilgrimPastor
Jul 7th 2008, 01:31 AM
You show your confusion in the modern doctrines of men. No one is proof texting my friend. I have given multiple Scripture verses I have given evidence from the early church and could give boat loads more. Actually if you studied the doctrines of the apostles and the early Christians you would find out how far you are from what Christ actually taught. You would find that your doctrine of "FAITH ALONE" comes form Martin Luther and dates to the 1500's. Before that NO ONE (Believers) held to faith alone. So, was the entire church wrong for 1400 years, and all of a sudden, one man came along and discovered the TRUE DOCTRINES of the Bible? The doctrine of faith alone that you claim, does not have a single verse of support in Scripture.

What exactly is the work of the cross alone?





Then what is it that washes away your sins?



How exactly does the blood of Christ cleanse us from all sin?

Your position is well supported by the text and I appreciate your sincere devotion to the Scriptures. I simply do not agree and on this one I think we are not going to see eye to eye. You see it as a salvific issue and I see it as secondary to salvation. We can both agree that God is a god of grace and mercy and that faith in Christ saves; perhaps we do well to focus on convincing others of those truths as the body of Christ and not arguing over such matters. There are so many lost in sins and separation from God; we need to find a way to be the body of Christ to them and not argue amongst ourselves.

PilgrimPastor
Jul 7th 2008, 01:33 AM
:rolleyes: Don't be like that. If you can't tell me where he is wrong then I am forced to believe he is right. And as I said before you become 'in Christ' when you believe 'in Him'. You don't have to get dunked in water to be somehow conjoined with Christ, as if water has a magic effect.

I echo these thoughts and throw in the towel on this one... :giveup:

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 01:44 AM
:rolleyes: Don't be like that. If you can't tell me where he is wrong then I am forced to believe he is right. And as I said before you become 'in Christ' when you believe 'in Him'. You don't have to get dunked in water to be somehow conjoined with Christ, as if water has a magic effect.

There is no point in my going into showing how the grace is the the subject, as you will not believe it anyway. I have shown you where baptism is necessary for salvation and you do not believe. As for being "in Him" you claim it is belief yet you have no Scripture to support your Claim. But I will not drag this on.


Romans 6:3-5 ( KJV ) 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Baptized into Christ! That is how we get "in Him." Also that word newness, the Geek word means renewal as in born again. That sounds a lot like what Paul said in Titus 3:5, when He said God saved us by the "washing of regeneration."


Galatians 3:27 ( KJV ) 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Here again Paul says we are baptized into Christ.

Now if not you, someone else will probably say, this is not water baptism. However Romans 6:4 makes it clear that this is water baptism. Not to mention the fact that Peter says Spirit baptism comes through water baptism. Paul also made the distinction in Titus 3:5 when He compared the washing of regeneration with renewing of the Spirit. Paul mentions the two as separate items in salvation.

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 01:53 AM
I echo these thoughts and throw in the towel on this one... :giveup:

I know you said before that we are "in Him" when we believe, however you have given no Scriptural support. It's not a matter of throwing in the towel. Let's just look at the Scriptures with an open mind and let them talk to us, without trying to impose man made doctrines on them. People keep saying baptism is not required, yet give not scriptural support. To quote a few verses that say we are saved by faith does not prove baptism is not necessary. As I have shown, there are verses that say we are saved by grace, by hope, by baptism, that make no mention of faith, yet I am not claiming that we are saved by baptism and don't need faith. However you guys are claiming we are saved by faith and don't need anything else when the Bible explicitly says otherwise.

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 01:55 AM
Your first 4 quotes are of the same thing. The other two talk of Pentecost. I have a question for you, You claim belief in Jesus is the baptism of the Spirit. How come the 3000 added to the church at Pentecost did not receive the Spirit when they believed? How come the 12 that Paul came upon in the book of Acts did not receive the spirit when they believed? How come Paul didn't receive the Spirit when He believed?

First the Holy Spirit had not yet been sent. Christ had not yet ascended.

Second, if you are referring to Acts 19: When they were baptized in water they clearly had not believed on Jesus or they would have received the Holy Spirit simultaneously. John either didn't preach Jesus, which we know isn't possible - or they didn't listen to or fully comprehend the message being preached. Once Paul explained the gospel again to them and they heard and believed on it they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.
4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

As far as I am aware this is the only account where laying on of hands was applied during receiving of the Holy Spirit. The laying on of hands is also the way of receiving further empowering of the Holy Spirit on believers. It can occur separately from being marked with the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation. The gift of prophecy having also been received by some of these is evidence of further empowerment. Although it does not indicate that this happened separately from hearing this possibly occurred simultaneously. Either way, it was when they heard that they became baptized into the name of the Lord. A lot happened during this particular event.

BrckBrln
Jul 7th 2008, 02:03 AM
There is no point in my going into showing how the grace is the the subject, as you will not believe it anyway. I have shown you where baptism is necessary for salvation and you do not believe. As for being "in Him" you claim it is belief yet you have no Scripture to support your Claim. But I will not drag this on.


Romans 6:3-5 ( KJV ) 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Baptized into Christ! That is how we get "in Him." Also that word newness, the Geek word means renewal as in born again. That sounds a lot like what Paul said in Titus 3:5, when He said God saved us by the "washing of regeneration."


Galatians 3:27 ( KJV ) 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Here again Paul says we are baptized into Christ.

Now if not you, someone else will probably say, this is not water baptism. However Romans 6:4 makes it clear that this is water baptism. Not to mention the fact that Peter says Spirit baptism comes through water baptism. Paul also made the distinction in Titus 3:5 when He compared the washing of regeneration with renewing of the Spirit. Paul mentions the two as separate items in salvation.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13

Hmmm, no mention of water here, just the Holy Spirit.

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 02:09 AM
genesisblu---First the Holy Spirit had not yet been sent. Christ had not yet ascended.

If you are referring to the 3000, the Holy spirit most definitely had come. Peter received the Holy Spirit and preached on Pentecost.


genesisblu---Second, if you are referring to Acts 19: When they were baptized in water they clearly had not believed on Jesus or they would have received the Holy Spirit simultaneously. John either didn't preach Jesus, which we know isn't possible - or they didn't listen to or fully comprehend the message being preached. Once Paul explained the gospel again to them and they heard and believed on it they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.
4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

As far as I am aware this is the only account where laying on of hands was applied during receiving of the Holy Spirit. The laying on of hands is also the way of receiving further empowering of the Holy Spirit on believers. It can occur separately from being marked with the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation. The gift of prophecy having also been received by some of these is evidence of further empowerment. Although it does not indicate that this happened separately from hearing this possibly occurred simultaneously. Either way, it was when they heard that they became baptized into the name of the Lord. A lot happened during this particular event.


You included the verse right in your post.

2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

Since you believed. They believed yet had not received the Holy Spirit.

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 02:14 AM
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13

Hmmm, no mention of water here, just the Holy Spirit.

Just like faith huh, it doesn't say water here must mean there is no water. I guess that cancels the overwhelming amount of evidence and Jesus words. Put the verse in context, it is not speaking of baptism or salvation, it is speaking of believers being one body in Christ.

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 02:15 AM
If you are referring to the 3000, the Holy spirit most definitely had come. Peter received the Holy Spirit and preached on Pentecost.
No, and that is my fault I should have clarified, I was speaking of Paul when he first believed.




You included the verse right in your post.

2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

Since you believed. They believed yet had not received the Holy Spirit.

Yes, I did and are just refusing to see what it says? They did not believe in the correct message. Clearly they did not believe. Read v. 4 again, he had to retell them that they needed to believe in Jesus. Obviously they hadn't done that.

As for the 3000 where does it say they did not receive the Holy Spirit?

losthorizon
Jul 7th 2008, 02:28 AM
And as I said before you become 'in Christ' when you believe 'in Him'. You don't have to get dunked in water to be somehow conjoined with Christ, as if water has a magic effect.
Actually, you are mistaken - those 3000 penitent believers on the day of Pentecost asked the most important question anyone can ask – “What shall we do to be saved?” Peter didn’t say – there is nothing you can DO to be saved. No, Peter proclaimed the full gospel of Christ…those who are to be Christ’s disciples MUST DO SOMETHING they must BELIEVE, they must REPENT and they must be BAPTIZED in water and then their sins will be remitted and they will then receive the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit. These are works of obedience that must be done. “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” The only way to be “in Christ” is to be baptized into Christ upon faith and confession that He is the Son of God after that one has repented…
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:37-38 (KJV)

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 02:37 AM
Actually, you are mistaken - those 3000 penitent believers on the day of Pentecost asked the most important question anyone can ask – “What shall we do to be saved?” Peter didn’t say – there is nothing you can DO to be saved. No, Peter proclaimed the full gospel of Christ…those who are to be Christ’s disciples MUST DO SOMETHING they must BELIEVE, they must REPENT and they must be BAPTIZED in water and then their sins will be remitted and they will then receive the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit.

Where does it say baptized in water? It doesn't. That is your assumption.


Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:37-38 (KJV)

Baptized into what? Acts 19:5 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Baptized upon what? Hearing.

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 02:38 AM
Do you guys presuppose every time you see the word baptize it means water?

BrckBrln
Jul 7th 2008, 02:40 AM
Do you guys presuppose every time you see the word baptize it means water?

It seems they do.

losthorizon
Jul 7th 2008, 02:46 AM
Where does it say baptized in water? It doesn't. That is your assumption.


Baptized into what? Acts 19:5 5 When they heard [I]this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Baptized upon what? Hearing.
I think any bible student should recognize that the baptism commanded in Acts 2:38 is the same baptism commanded by Jesus Christ in the Great Commission – and that baptism is the ordinance of Christian baptism – an immersion in water. I do not know of any bible scholar who thought otherwise – do you?
Be baptized - See the notes on Mat_3:6, Mat_3:16. The direction which Christ gave to his apostles was that they should baptize all who believed, Mat_28:19; Mar_16:16. The Jews had not been baptized; and a baptism now would be a profession of the religion of Christ, or a declaration made before the world that they embraced Jesus as their Messiah. It was equivalent to saying that they should publicly and professedly embrace Jesus Christ as their Saviour. The gospel requires such a profession, and no one is at liberty to withhold it. A similar declaration is to be made to all who are inquiring the way to life. They are to exercise repentance; and then, without any unnecessary delay, to evince it by partaking of the ordinances of the gospel. If people are unwilling to profess religion, they have none. If they will not, in the proper way, show that they are truly attached to Christ, it is proof that they have no such attachment. Baptism is the application of water, as expressive of the need of purification, and as emblematic of the influences from God that can alone cleanse the soul. It is also a form of dedication to the service of God. ~ Albert Barnes on Acts 2:38

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 02:58 AM
Your position is well supported by the text and I appreciate your sincere devotion to the Scriptures. I simply do not agree and on this one I think we are not going to see eye to eye. You see it as a salvific issue and I see it as secondary to salvation. We can both agree that God is a god of grace and mercy and that faith in Christ saves; perhaps we do well to focus on convincing others of those truths as the body of Christ and not arguing over such matters. There are so many lost in sins and separation from God; we need to find a way to be the body of Christ to them and not argue amongst ourselves.

I agree with you, the problem I find is that Christ prayed that we would be one as He and the father are one. That is not the case, I believe this is the main reason, we do not agree on the Scriptures. Here is my point, if you and I disagree on this point then one of us is wrong, so whichever one of us is wrong is teaching others wrong, so we are perpetuating the problem. I used to be a Calvinist, I was being taught the doctrines of the TULIP. It wasn't until I began to study the Scriptures that I found Scriptures that didn't fit with what I was being taught. I listened to the NT on my ipod over and over and over. The more I listened the more I Scriptures I found that were in opposition to the doctrines of Calvin. Eventually I had so many that I had to question what I believed. So I put everything that I had been taught under suspicion, everything Must be confirmed by Scripture. I began a search into the Scriptures, I don't know how many times I have listened to the NT. What I found was that a lot of what is taught today is incorrect. My search took me back to the early Christians to see how they understood what they were taught by the apostles. In the process I have learned of much error that has entered into the Church. And that the teachings have been changed. I have one goal and that is to understand the Scriptures. This is the most important thing in the world. This world is going to end, the next will not, so I do not want to be wrong on anything about the Scriptures. That is not a pride issue, it is because there is nothing more important than knowing God. So I have no doctrinal stance that I am trying to uphold, I threw out men's doctrines as they led me astray. If you or anyone else on this forum can show me that I am wrong about something, I am all ears, however you must show me from Scripture. As I said, I hold no doctrines of men. I reject the doctrines of Calvin, Arminius, the Catholics, etc. I will only hold doctrine if it is in the Bible. The doctrines of men lead men astray. I am in a discussion on another forum regarding the atonement, I suspect that most, if not all here, will disagree with me on this point also. The penal atonement model which is almost universally held, says that Christ died to pay the price for our sins, that He died in our place. And that His death appeased the wrath of God. I do not hold to this model. Why? One simple reason, God promises to forgive our sins. If Christ died to pay the price for our sins, then our sins were paid for, they were not forgiven. Now in the discussion no one can answer where the Bible says that God requires payment for our sins, yet they refuse to let go of their belief. This model is opposite what the Scriptures say but they were taught this and will not let go. That is the problem, people are taught things that are wrong but they don't check them out, they just believe them and parrot them to others. So, yes we should be reaching the lost, but we should also be united. Until people are willing to realize and admit that what they have been taught may be wrong, we will not get there. I did that and I have learned more than any pastor or anyone else ever taught me about the Scriptures.

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 03:02 AM
It seems they do.

How about this one?
Mark 10:38 "You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said. "Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?"

and this

Luke 12
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!

Jesus is not talking about water baptism.

losthorizon
Jul 7th 2008, 03:03 AM
It seems they do.
The questions to you – for what purpose did Jesus ordain and command the ordinance of Christian baptism (Mark 16:16)? Is the ordinance of baptism a baptism in water? Is the command to be baptized in water a command from man or a command from God? Is obeying from the heart God's commands required by God?
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Romans 6:16-18

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 03:07 AM
genesisblu---No, and that is my fault I should have clarified, I was speaking of Paul when he first believed.

The Holy Spirit had already come when Paul believed.






genesisblu---[Yes, I did and are just refusing to see what it says? They did not believe in the correct message. Clearly they did not believe. Read v. 4 again, he had to retell them that they needed to believe in Jesus. Obviously they hadn't done that.

I'll give you the the acts 19 passage, as it appears it could be read either way.


genesisblu---[As for the 3000 where does it say they did not receive the Holy Spirit?

They said "what shall we do" and Peter said repent and be baptized and you will receive the Holy Spirit

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 03:11 AM
I think any bible student should recognize that the baptism commanded in Acts 2:38 is the same baptism commanded by Jesus Christ in the Great Commission – and that baptism is the ordinance of Christian baptism – an immersion in water. I do not know of any bible scholar who thought otherwise – do you?

Actually yes, many do not believe it is required for salvation. Barnes, Spurgeon and Macarthur are a few.

losthorizon
Jul 7th 2008, 03:16 AM
Actually yes, many do not believe it is required for salvation. Barnes, Spurgeon and Macarthur are a few.
Do/did Barnes, Spurgeon and Macarthur believe the baptism commanded in Acts 2:38 was a reference to baptism in water? Do you believe it is a reference to water baptism?

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 03:16 AM
Do you guys presuppose every time you see the word baptize it means water?

Dude,

That is what they did, Jesus disciples baptized, in water, thousands of people, John's disciples baptized thousands of people. This is what I was talking about when I said you have to understand what was going on at the time. Thousands of people were being baptized in water at this time. If Peter had meant some other kind of Baptism, they would not have understood Him because the ONLY kind of baptism that was taking place at that Time was water baptism. The only ones who had been baptized with the Spirit were the apostles and that had just happened. If Peter was talking about some other baptism they would not understanding because Peter didn't tell them of a different baptism. If He had meant a different baptism then He would have told them, otherwise they would have no clue what He was talking about.

JohnD777
Jul 7th 2008, 03:19 AM
Your first 4 quotes are of the same thing. The other two talk of Pentecost. I have a question for you, You claim belief in Jesus is the baptism of the Spirit. How come the 3000 added to the church at Pentecost did not receive the Spirit when they believed? How come the 12 that Paul came upon in the book of Acts did not receive the spirit when they believed? How come Paul didn't receive the Spirit when He believed?

Thanks for making my point. All 6 quotes show that God made the same point how many times? Six. He only had to tell light to come into existence once. Ah, but he did not have to convince light, did he? ;)

To answer your point, they believed in Jesus which is the testimony of the Holy Spirit... the outward manifestations came later. So?

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 03:24 AM
Do/did Barnes, Spurgeon and Macarthur believe the baptism commanded in Acts 2:38 was a reference to baptism in water? Do you believe it is a reference to water baptism?

I would have to look each up as I do not know right off the top of my head. However, that does not prove your fact. Yes, I do believe this instance was referring to water. It was a command. As is doing works and obeying, none of which save you!

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 03:25 AM
Thanks for making my point. All 6 quotes show that God made the same point how many times? Six. He only had to tell light to come into existence once. Ah, but he did not have to convince light, did he? ;)

To answer your point, they believed in Jesus which is the testimony of the Holy Spirit... the outward manifestations came later. So?

Yet another opinion, Scriptue please.

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 7th 2008, 03:25 AM
Do you guys presuppose every time you see the word baptize it means water?

That is what I have found also. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is ignored completly like it never existed or only existed back then.

They say that you are commanded to be baptized in water yet there is NO scripture to support the argument but they keep quoting scriptures and telling you they support it! It becomes pointless to argue with them...

Below Butch5 claims that Romans 6:4 makes it clear that this is water baptism... as anyone can see this is not true Romans 6:4 says nothing of the sort. Then he goes on to say that it is a fact that Peter says Spirit baptism comes through water baptism... where does it say that? No where! It is only the interpetation they have.



Romans 6:3-5 ( KJV ) 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Galatians 3:27 ( KJV ) 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Here again Paul says we are baptized into Christ.

Now if not you, someone else will probably say, this is not water baptism. However Romans 6:4 makes it clear that this is water baptism. Not to mention the fact that Peter says Spirit baptism comes through water baptism.

Water baptism gets you wet! It doesn't matter how big your fonts are! ;)

Michael

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 03:26 AM
I would have to look each up as I do not know right off the top of my head. However, that does not prove your fact. Yes, I do believe this instance was referring to water. It was a command. As is doing works and obeying, none of which save you!

Do yo hold to OSAS?

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 03:30 AM
That is what I have found also. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is ignored completly like it never existed or only existed back then.

They say that you are commanded to be baptized in water yet there is NO scripture to support the argument but they keep quoting scriptures and telling you they support it! It becomes pointless to argue with them...

Below Butch5 claims that Romans 6:4 makes it clear that this is water baptism... as anyone can see this is not true Romans 6:4 says nothing of the sort. Then he goes on to say that it is a fact that Peter says Spirit baptism comes through water baptism... where does it say that? No where! It is only the interpetation they have.




Water baptism gets you wet! It doesn't matter how big your fonts are! ;)

Michael

ACTS 2:38 repent and be baptized and receive the the gift of the Holy Spirit. Jesus even gave a demonstration when He was baptized, upon coming out of the water the Holy Spirit descended upon Him.


Tell me, why do you reject this doctrine?

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 03:31 AM
Dude,

That is what they did, Jesus disciples baptized, in water, thousands of people, John's disciples baptized thousands of people. This is what I was talking about when I said you have to understand what was going on at the time. Thousands of people were being baptized in water at this time. If Peter had meant some other kind of Baptism, they would not have understood Him because the ONLY kind of baptism that was taking place at that Time was water baptism. The only ones who had been baptized with the Spirit were the apostles and that had just happened. If Peter was talking about some other baptism they would not understanding because Peter didn't tell them of a different baptism. If He had meant a different baptism then He would have told them, otherwise they would have no clue what He was talking about.

Well Dude, :)
I did an intensive study as well. And I am aware of what was going on in that time. John's baptism was never even meant for the Gentiles. It was for the Jews. It was a recognized rite in Judaism. When they became baptized in water it signified that they believe in the testimony given by John regarding salvation by Christ. Furthermore, John said several times that it was not his baptism that was THE important baptism it was that of the one people would receive in Christ. John's baptism never claimed that a person would receive forgiveness of sins. It was a baptism of repentance. Repentance = a turning from one thing to another. In this case it signified that they turned from their life of sin and turned to Jesus. It was of utmost importance in the Jewish community to be making a statement of this magnitude in this manner. It did not save anyone. They first had to shows the fruit of worthiness before even being able to be baptized, this was an indication that they had already been saved by turning their lives around. You can't turn your life around if you haven't accepted Christ. Their baptism's said to the surrounding Jews that they had done this. It was symbolic not salvific.

JohnD777
Jul 7th 2008, 03:31 AM
Yet another opinion, Scriptue please.

Delighted to... once you show the scripture stating that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit is baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Your opinion is no more weighty than mine.

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 03:34 AM
Do yo hold to OSAS?

That is off subject to the thread. What does that have to do with anything?

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 03:36 AM
Well Dude, :)
I did an intensive study as well. And I am aware of what was going on in that time. John's baptism was never even meant for the Gentiles. It was for the Jews. It was a recognized rite in Judaism. When they became baptized in water it signified that they believe in the testimony given by John regarding salvation by Christ. Furthermore, John said several times that it was not his baptism that was THE important baptism it was that of the one people would receive in Christ. John's baptism never claimed that a person would receive forgiveness of sins. It was a baptism of repentance. Repentance = a turning from one thing to another. In this case it signified that they turned from their life of sin and turned to Jesus. It was of utmost importance in the Jewish community to be making a statement of this magnitude in this manner. It did not save anyone. They first had to shows the fruit of worthiness before even being able to be baptized, this was an indication that they had already been saved by turning their lives around. You can't turn your life around if you haven't accepted Christ. Their baptism's said to the surrounding Jews that they had done this. It was symbolic not salvific.

I didn't say John's baptism saved, I said John's disciples baptized thousands. To show that thousands of people were being water baptized. why would any of them understand baptism to be anything else.

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 03:40 AM
That is off subject to the thread. What does that have to do with anything?

If you hold to OSAS I understand were you are coming from.

If you don't then I had some questions for you.

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 03:41 AM
How can you do a study on the subject and yet miss the clear examples where water baptism did not precede receiving the Holy Spirit?

I will never argue against the fact that water baptism is a commandment. On that we agree. It is not unimportant, it is not to be diminished, it is not to be ignored. But there is simply not enough scriptural evidence to support that it is required for salvation.

The very definition of baptize does not even state that it must be in water. It is to dip or be immersed. You can baptize a cucumber in pickle juice.

You can't possibly believe that Jesus was referring to water in Luke 12:50, or do you?

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 03:43 AM
I didn't say John's baptism saved, I said John's disciples baptized thousands. To show that thousands of people were being water baptized. why would any of them understand baptism to be anything else.

I wouldn't argue that either. Baptism in water is clearly evident in scripture.

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 03:46 AM
If you hold to OSAS I understand were you are coming from.

If you don't then I had some questions for you.

Ok well, maybe it should go under a new thread but if you keep it short so we don't go too far away from the OP I am more than willing to discuss it.

To answer, I haven't done as intensive a study on that subject to be perfectly honest. I am not settled one way or another o n it. However, I am leaning toward not believing in OSAS. I believe the scripture indicates it is possible to apostatize thereby eliminating a doctrine of OSAS.

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 03:59 AM
genesisblu---How can you do a study on the subject and yet miss the clear examples where water baptism did not precede receiving the Holy Spirit?

I didn't miss it. God can do as He pleases, if He gave the Holy Spirit in first in those instances, that is His decision. Personally I believe that God did that to show Peter that He was going to save the Gentiles. However Peter tells us that the way to receive the Holy spirit is though baptism.


genesisblu---I will never argue against the fact that water baptism is a commandment. On that we agree. It is not unimportant, it is not to be diminished, it is not to be ignored. But there is simply not enough scriptural evidence to support that it is required for salvation.


Well, when you look at the Scriptural evidence and take into account the understanding of the early church as taught by the apostles and take Jesus at His word I think the is more than ample evidence to support it.
Personally I don't think you even need the early church evidence, when scripture tells us outright. Peter said baptism saves us, Paul said it and the words came out of Jesus' own mouth. That's enough for me. Someone just made a comment about God saying something 6 times, well God has spoken through His word 3 times that baptism saves us.


genesisblu---You can't possibly believe that Jesus was referring to water in Luke 12:50, or do you?

No, it is obviously a metaphor referring to His death, however that does not mean that Act 2:38 is a metaphor.

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 04:08 AM
Ok well, maybe it should go under a new thread but if you keep it short so we don't go too far away from the OP I am more than willing to discuss it.

To answer, I haven't done as intensive a study on that subject to be perfectly honest. I am not settled one way or another o n it. However, I am leaning toward not believing in OSAS. I believe the scripture indicates it is possible to apostatize thereby eliminating a doctrine of OSAS.

Well, we don't really need to go into it. The reason I asked, is to see how you understand the maintenance of salvation. A lot of people who believe faith alone also hold OSAS, because faith alone means that God did everything in salvation and therefore they cannot be lost. You see, I can believe that initial salvation is by faith alone. In other words When a Person believes and has faith He is saved, however that is the initial stage. He must then follow in baptism, if He does not He will not be saved. so it is not an act of obedience to me. I don't believe He receives the HS until he is baptized either.

Tourist
Jul 7th 2008, 04:13 AM
What about the thief who died on the cross beside Jesus?

Luke 23 39-43:
39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom" 43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 04:20 AM
I didn't miss it. God can do as He pleases, if He gave the Holy Spirit in first in those instances, that is His decision. Personally I believe that God did that to show Peter that He was going to save the Gentiles. However Peter tells us that the way to receive the Holy spirit is though baptism.

Well, when you look at the Scriptural evidence and take into account the understanding of the early church as taught by the apostles and take Jesus at His word I think the is more than ample evidence to support it.
Personally I don't think you even need the early church evidence, when scripture tells us outright. Peter said baptism saves us, Paul said it and the words came out of Jesus' own mouth. That's enough for me. Someone just made a comment about God saying something 6 times, well God has spoken through His word 3 times that baptism saves us.

No, it is obviously a metaphor referring to His death, however that does not mean that Act 2:38 is a metaphor.

Can you provide me with one clear scripture that says be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit aside from believing being included? I don't believe there is however there are plenty that say "believe and be saved" alone.

Obviously it is a metaphor. As it is in other places in the bible.

There are at least 7 major baptisms in the bible you need to reconcile each one in it's proper place.

If that is enough for you then how about all the times it is said just believe and be saved? Are those not adequate to believe?

You can "dismiss" those instances where water did not precede the Holy Spirit but you can't remove them or their significance and it wasn't just to prove Gentiles could be saved. I don't believe Acts 19 is even referring to Gentiles nor does it indicate that's the case for the thief on the cross.

Sjohn1107
Jul 7th 2008, 04:22 AM
That was not me who wrote in big bold letters. I appreciate your prayers for understanding however you need to direct them to yourself. I have studied baptism extensively.


Oh i'm sorry then..but i'm not trying to bring you down or anything, baptised or not as long as you trusted jesus christ as your savior you are family to me and i'm gonna treat u with respect and i would appreciate if you showed some back..i'm just trying to show you what i read and understand from the scriptures..but hopefully you will see how all this works out all together and just pray bro that god may reveal the truth in his word thats all i can say...

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 04:27 AM
Well, we don't really need to go into it. The reason I asked, is to see how you understand the maintenance of salvation. A lot of people who believe faith alone also hold OSAS, because faith alone means that God did everything in salvation and therefore they cannot be lost. You see, I can believe that initial salvation is by faith alone. In other words When a Person believes and has faith He is saved, however that is the initial stage. He must then follow in baptism, if He does not He will not be saved. so it is not an act of obedience to me. I don't believe He receives the HS until he is baptized either.

Jesus did everything on the cross. There are three witnesses, yes? All three were represented on the cross. Jesus is the High Priest (done during His water baptism) for everyone. When they pierced His side, blood and water came forth. The two elements necessary for total atonement. This was very significant. It was done complete for all of us. We don't need to do anything He didn't already do for us. The veil was torn allowing everyone to enter who believes. His blood (which included the water) was seated on the ark of the covenant.

Heb 9 11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

You can chose not to believe that one does not receive the Holy Spirit outside of water baptism, the bible clearly disagrees with you as do I. I was never water baptized and I have received the Holy Spirit.

PilgrimPastor
Jul 7th 2008, 04:40 AM
I know you said before that we are "in Him" when we believe, however you have given no Scriptural support. It's not a matter of throwing in the towel. Let's just look at the Scriptures with an open mind and let them talk to us, without trying to impose man made doctrines on them. People keep saying baptism is not required, yet give not scriptural support. To quote a few verses that say we are saved by faith does not prove baptism is not necessary. As I have shown, there are verses that say we are saved by grace, by hope, by baptism, that make no mention of faith, yet I am not claiming that we are saved by baptism and don't need faith. However you guys are claiming we are saved by faith and don't need anything else when the Bible explicitly says otherwise.

I told you before, there is not a Scripture that is going to say, "Baptism is NOT required for salvation..." The Bible does not tend to make negative doctrinal statements. It is not about man-made doctrine, it is about viewing the Scriptures as a whole. If I read one page of any document I will not likely "get" its total message, whereas if I read it in its in entirety I will see the "big picture."

BrckBrln
Jul 7th 2008, 04:49 AM
In other words When a Person believes and has faith He is saved, however that is the initial stage. He must then follow in baptism, if He does not He will not be saved.

Is this not a contradiction?

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 04:54 AM
What about the thief who died on the cross beside Jesus?

Luke 23 39-43:
39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom" 43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Yes, that is a good example. Although some will say that was because he was under OT. He was not. In John 19:
31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.

It is clear that Christ died before the thief. The will had been enacted. The NT covenant applied.

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 05:26 AM
1 John 5:6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

He came as the atoning High Priest, he satisfied all requirements and it is the testimony of God that our consciences witness to that we receive eternal life. Not mans testimony which is what water baptism is. It is our testimony, man's testimony to men, that we have believed in God's testimony.

We have to go beyond the scriptures that have the word baptize, baptism, to determine where our salvation lies. It is really evident that our believing God about His Son is what is most important and what saves us.

Beantown
Jul 7th 2008, 05:47 AM
[quote=Butch5;1699112]You don't fully agree with Jesus, you say baptism isn't necessary Jesus said it is. You have done nothing yet to prove that baptism is a work, I have shown that Paul did not consider baptism to be a work, however you deny this in favor of your interpretation. Also the same can be said of faith. Having faith is something you must do, therefore it is a work based on your definition. So your analogy of the Muslim can also be use for faith.

No one is basing doctrine on single disputed verse. There is not dispute about the verse, it is clear what it says. If you don't believe it that does not mean it is disputed. Secondly it is not based on one verse there are multiple verses that state this,

1 Peter 3:19-21
Mark 16:15-16
Titus 3:5
John 3:4-5

As I told you before, if you study what was going on during the time of the apostles you will see that Paul is not saying that we do nothing in salvation, He is saying that no one can be saved by the works of the law.









Hi Brnk Bihn,
Sorry if I misspelled your name. I started this post without writing your name down.
It is very true that you cannot interpret just one Scripture and ignore the rest of the Bible, however, in this case, Butch is correct.
Please note the many verses on Baptism:
Baptism leads to salvation. It is not symbolic.

1) Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus 'commands' the apostles to baptise all people "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit".

2) Acts 2:38 Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

3) In the above Scripture Peter also says that after baptism you will recive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

4) In the above two Scriptures there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about Baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

5) Mark 16:16 Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is required. Baptism is salvific, not just symoblic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for believ and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a "believers baptism".

6) John 3:3,5 unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.

7) Acts 8:12,13; 36; 10:47 If belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

8) Acts 16:15; 31,33; 18:8; 19:2,5. Lydia, who was a worshipper of God. God opened her heart and Paul baptised " her and her household". She was immediately baptized after learning of Jesus.

The jailer asked "what must I do to be saved?". Paul and Silus said "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." Then they took him and his family and they were immediately baptized.

Crispis and his household and many from the Synagogue believed and were baptized.

There were men at Ephesis that were baptized by John the Baptist. Paul baptized them in the name of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit came on them.

9) Acts 9:18 Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This demonstrates very strongly that water baptism is salvific, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

10) 1Cor.6:11 Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The washing of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.

11) Gal. 3:27 whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

12) Luke 23:43 the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. Paradise is not another name for Heaven. It's from the Hebrew word "sheol" meaning the realm of the righteous dead. They were destined for Heaven after the Lord's resurrection.

Please note:
1) At no time is baptism accomplished without water.
2) At no time is baptism ever even remotely considered a symbol. It is always considered salvific.
3) Is there enough of the Bible mentioned above to not be considered just a "one liner taken out of context"?

It is not my place to reprimand you in any way over what you have written. However, you have changed the Word of God into something different than what it was meant to be. I suggest very strongly that you get back on track. The track being the Bible.

Beantown.

losthorizon
Jul 7th 2008, 09:43 PM
I told you before, there is not a Scripture that is going to say, "Baptism is NOT required for salvation..."

Just as there is not ONE Scripture that teaches the false notion that the ordinance of Christian baptism - a baptism in water - is NOT a necessary part of the gospel of Christ. And why is this so - because the ordinance of baptism was designed and commanded by Jesus Christ Himself. Both belief and baptism (the fruit of faith) come BEFORE one is saved per the Christ….
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved…”

"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary on Mark 16:16

The Bible does not tend to make negative doctrinal statements. It is not about man-made doctrine, it is about viewing the Scriptures as a whole. If I read one page of any document I will not likely "get" its total message, whereas if I read it in its in entirety I will see the "big picture."
Is it your notion that the ordinance of baptism is a “man-made doctrine” or did it come directly from God? Is baptism in water optional or is it required of those who will be Christ’s disciples? Isn't it true that the ordinance is part of the "big picture"? The NT does not know of an un-baptized Christian - does it?

losthorizon
Jul 7th 2008, 09:52 PM
What about the thief who died on the cross beside Jesus?

Luke 23 39-43:
39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom" 43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Are you a thief on a cross with Jesus on a cross next to you? The command from Christ to be immersed in water was not given until AFTER His resurrection. The fact that the theif was with the Lord in paradise that day does not negate the requirement He gave to us today to be baptized in water - does it?

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 10:02 PM
Are you a thief on a cross with Jesus on a cross next to you? The command from Christ to be immersed in water was not given until AFTER His resurrection. The fact that the theif was with the Lord in paradise that day does not negate the requirement He gave to us today to be baptized in water - does it?

So now you claim it wasn't a command or requirement prior to death? You are contradicting yourself.

losthorizon
Jul 7th 2008, 10:07 PM
I would have to look each up as I do not know right off the top of my head. However, that does not prove your fact. Yes, I do believe this instance was referring to water. It was a command. As is doing works and obeying, none of which save you!
Let me help you out here - all three of the above scholars recognize the baptism of Acts 2:38 for what it is - baptism in water. And you have just proven my “fact”. Go back and review your post #184 where you question the fact that those 3000 who were baptized on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) were indeed baptized in water. Your quote:


genesisblu
Where does it say baptized in water? It doesn't. That is your assumption.
Now you appear to be flip-flopping and acknowledge the truth that those penitent believers were commanded to be baptized in water. You are the one who appears to be a bit confused on what is and what is not water baptism. Is water baptism commanded by Jesus Christ? Is water baptism an option or is it required by the Lord?

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 10:11 PM
Just as there is not ONE Scripture that teaches the false notion that the ordinance of Christian baptism - a baptism in water - is NOT a necessary part of the gospel of Christ. And why is this so - because the ordinance of baptism was designed and commanded by Jesus Christ Himself. Both belief and baptism (the fruit of faith) come BEFORE one is saved per the Christ….

Care to explain the examples of people receiving the Holy Spirit before water baptism or will you just explain those away in dismissal?

Care to explain the numerous scripture that state believing, having faith, with NO mention of baptism is what saves?

Care to explain why we are saved by only one baptism and according to you it is by water thereby completely disregarding baptism of the Holy Spirit, or is it really two baptisms that now saves us?

losthorizon
Jul 7th 2008, 10:11 PM
So now you claim it wasn't a command or requirement prior to death? You are contradicting yourself.
It is my position that the ordinance of Christian baptism - a baptism in the name of the Triune God was not ordained nor was it commanded before His resurrection from the grave - ie - after the thief died on the cross. There is no contradiction on my part.

losthorizon
Jul 7th 2008, 10:14 PM
Care to explain the examples of people receiving the Holy Spirit before water baptism or will you just explain those away in dismissal?

Care to explain the numerous scripture that state believing, having faith, with NO mention of baptism is what saves?

Care to explain why we are saved by only one baptism and according to you it is by water thereby completely disregarding baptism of the Holy Spirit, or is it really two baptisms that now saves us?
It works like this - you answer my questions already asked and then I will answer your questions - we normally answer questions in the order asked. But I will be more than happy to answer your questions in turn. :)

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 10:18 PM
Let me help you out here - all three of the above scholars recognize the baptism of Acts 2:38 for what it is - baptism in water. And you have just proven my “fact”. Go back and review your post #184 where you question the fact that those 3000 who were baptized on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) were indeed baptized in water. Your quote:

You need to read just a bit more closely, my statement was that is does not say in water...it still does not say that and I was referring to v. 38 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Where does it say water? What does it say? in the name of Jesus Christ. You assume he is referring to water.

What does it say in Acts 19:5? 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. That is not water. You can't just assume every single scripture means water.

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 10:21 PM
What about the thief who died on the cross beside Jesus?

Luke 23 39-43:
39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom" 43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

What about the thief?

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 10:24 PM
It works like this - you answer my questions already asked and then I will answer your questions - we normally answer questions in the order asked. But I will be more than happy to answer your questions in turn. :)

Just a wee bit bossy don't you think? Seeing as the questions you asked were ::not:: posed to me I am under no obligation to answer questions posed to someone else. However, just an FYI no one here is obligated to answer any questions. They may participate as they desire, or not desire for that matter.

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 10:27 PM
It is my position that the ordinance of Christian baptism - a baptism in the name of the Triune God was not ordained nor was it commanded before His resurrection from the grave - ie - after the thief died on the cross. There is no contradiction on my part.

So now it's not the baptism of John, nor the baptism in the name of Jesus it's the "Triune God" baptism?

That is just a bit all over the place. You are free to believe what you like, as am I. I do not need to force you into my view or to be forced into yours. And it's just becoming a fight with you at this point. So, for the sake of not fighting over the issue, I will leave you to your belief.

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 10:43 PM
genesisblu---Can you provide me with one clear scripture that says be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit aside from believing being included? I don't believe there is however there are plenty that say "believe and be saved" alone.

ACTS 2:38


genesisblu---Obviously it is a metaphor. As it is in other places in the bible. So is Jesus Commandin the Great Commission a metaphor?

There are at least 7 major baptisms in the bible you need to reconcile each one in it's proper place.

Sorry buddy there is only one Baptism,


Ephesians 4:4-6 ( KJV ) 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


genesisblu---If that is enough for you then how about all the times it is said just believe and be saved? Are those not adequate to believe?

Nowhere is it said to just believe. There are many verses that speak of believing but that does not negate the other conditions.


genesisblu---You can "dismiss" those instances where water did not precede the Holy Spirit but you can't remove them or their significance and it wasn't just to prove Gentiles could be saved. I don't believe Acts 19 is even referring to Gentiles nor does it indicate that's the case for the thief on the cross.


I didn't dismiss them, there are two instances where the Holy Spirit was given before baptism. If God chooses to give someone the Holy Spirit before they are baptized, he can do so. That however does not change the normal method that God uses, which Peter shows in Acts 2:38

Also I was not referring t0 Acts; 19, when I said that I felt that God gave the Holy Spirit before baptism to show Peter that He intended to save the Gentiles, that would be in Acts 10

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 10:45 PM
Oh i'm sorry then..but i'm not trying to bring you down or anything, baptised or not as long as you trusted jesus christ as your savior you are family to me and i'm gonna treat u with respect and i would appreciate if you showed some back..i'm just trying to show you what i read and understand from the scriptures..but hopefully you will see how all this works out all together and just pray bro that god may reveal the truth in his word thats all i can say...

If I disrespected you, I am sorry. God is showing me His word and I am trying to share it.

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 10:51 PM
Jesus did everything on the cross. There are three witnesses, yes? All three were represented on the cross. Jesus is the High Priest (done during His water baptism) for everyone. When they pierced His side, blood and water came forth. The two elements necessary for total atonement. This was very significant. It was done complete for all of us. We don't need to do anything He didn't already do for us. The veil was torn allowing everyone to enter who believes. His blood (which included the water) was seated on the ark of the covenant.

Heb 9 11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

You can chose not to believe that one does not receive the Holy Spirit outside of water baptism, the bible clearly disagrees with you as do I. I was never water baptized and I have received the Holy Spirit.

well, God is certainly capable of giving the Holy Spirit without baptism if He chooses. However if you are going to claim that the Bible disagrees with me, Please show it from Scripture. To say you have not been baptized, yet have received the Holy Spirit does not prove that the Bible disagrees with me.

losthorizon
Jul 7th 2008, 10:52 PM
You need to read just a bit more closely, my statement was that is does not say in water...it still does not say that and I was referring to v. 38 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Where does it say water? What does it say? in the name of Jesus Christ. You assume he is referring to water.


As I have already posted - I do not know of any scholar who thinks the baptism commanded by the apostle in Acts 2:38 is anything other than baptism in water. Again, I ask you - is it your opinion that it is not baptism in water? Is baptism is water commanded by Jesus Christ and is it an option (Mark 16:16)?

losthorizon
Jul 7th 2008, 10:53 PM
Just a wee bit bossy don't you think? Seeing as the questions you asked were posed to me I am under no obligation to answer questions posed to someone else. However, just an FYI no one here is obligated to answer any questions. They may participate as they desire, or not desire for that matter.
Do you find the questions to be too difficult? They are really just basic questions are they not?

losthorizon
Jul 7th 2008, 10:59 PM
So now it's not the baptism of John, nor the baptism in the name of Jesus it's the "Triune God" baptism?


Let me help you again - the baptism of the Great Commission is the baptism commanded by the Lord and it is a baptism in water - in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit - ie - in the name of the Triune God. Please note it was commanded after the thief died on the cross...
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 11:29 PM
Is this not a contradiction?

It only appears that way if you hold to OSAS. The Bible speaks of salvation in the past tense and in the future tense.

Ephesian 2:8 for by grace you have been saved.

Matthew 10:22 He who endures to the end shall be saved.

When a person believes, they are in a saved state, however if they do not abide "in Him," they will not be saved in the end.

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 11:32 PM
Yes, that is a good example. Although some will say that was because he was under OT. He was not. In John 19:
31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.

It is clear that Christ died before the thief. The will had been enacted. The NT covenant applied.

Dude, yes Christ died before the thief, but the thief was saved when Jesus said "today you will be with me in Paradise." When Jesus said this, He was alive, therefore the new covenant had not started.

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 11:37 PM
1 John 5:6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

He came as the atoning High Priest, he satisfied all requirements and it is the testimony of God that our consciences witness to that we receive eternal life. Not mans testimony which is what water baptism is. It is our testimony, man's testimony to men, that we have believed in God's testimony.

We have to go beyond the scriptures that have the word baptize, baptism, to determine where our salvation lies. It is really evident that our believing God about His Son is what is most important and what saves us.


genesisblu---Not mans testimony which is what water baptism is.

YOu keep sayiing this but give no Scriptural support.

BrckBrln
Jul 7th 2008, 11:42 PM
Dude, yes Christ died before the thief, but the thief was saved when Jesus said "today you will be with me in Paradise." When Jesus said this, He was alive, therefore the new covenant had not started.

This is what gets me. You are saying the method of salvation has changed from the Old to the New Testament. Why would God do that?

JohnD777
Jul 7th 2008, 11:43 PM
Yet another opinion, Scripture please.
Delighted to... once you show the scripture stating that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit is baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Your opinion is no more weighty than mine.

I'm still waiting for your scripture quote, Butch.

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 11:54 PM
This is what gets me. You are saying the method of salvation has changed from the Old to the New Testament. Why would God do that?

Why God would do that I cannot answer. However, are people in the NT commanded to be circumcised?

Butch5
Jul 7th 2008, 11:57 PM
I'm still waiting for your scripture quote, Butch.

What are you referencing? I don't have time to start a conversation on the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I am already in two conversations with multiple people.

losthorizon
Jul 8th 2008, 12:13 AM
This is what gets me. You are saying the method of salvation has changed from the Old to the New Testament. Why would God do that?
Was Jesus Christ the High Priest under the OT? Does the NT makes a clear distinction between the covenants of the Mosaic Law and the covenant of Promise? Did the death of Messiah on the cross establish a completely new covenant - the covenant whereby we are justified by God's grace and mercy through the blood of Christ? Was the ordinance of baptism ever commanded to anyone under the old covenant or is it given only to those Jewish and Gentile believer under the NT - the testament ratified by His blood?
Christ's ministry from the heavenly tabernacle
1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. 3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

The new covenant foretold by Jeremiah
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Heb 8:1-13 (KJV)

JohnD777
Jul 8th 2008, 12:37 AM
What are you referencing? I don't have time to start a conversation on the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I am already in two conversations with multiple people.

Forgive me, but you had time enough to tell me I was offering mere opinion when I cited 6 scripture passages distinguishing water Baptism from the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. You alluded to certain manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the lives of new converts (without citing scripture I might add) based on your interpretation that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit are one and the same. You said "scriptures please." And I said I'd be delighted if you'd at least cite scriptures that prove the manifestations of the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues, tongues of fire, etc.) are in fact baptism of the Holy Spirit as you inferred.

As I said... you had the time then...

Butch5
Jul 8th 2008, 12:48 AM
Forgive me, but you had time enough to tell me I was offering mere opinion when I cited 6 scripture passages distinguishing water Baptism from the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. You alluded to certain manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the lives of new converts (without citing scripture I might add) based on your interpretation that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit are one and the same. You said "scriptures please." And I said I'd be delighted if you'd at least cite scriptures that prove the manifestations of the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues, tongues of fire, etc.) are in fact baptism of the Holy Spirit as you inferred.

As I said... you had the time then...

What post are your referncing? I do not recall talking about manifestaions of the Spirit.

losthorizon
Jul 8th 2008, 12:53 AM
Forgive me, but you had time enough to tell me I was offering mere opinion when I cited 6 scripture passages distinguishing water Baptism from the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. You alluded to certain manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the lives of new converts (without citing scripture I might add) based on your interpretation that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit are one and the same. You said "scriptures please." And I said I'd be delighted if you'd at least cite scriptures that prove the manifestations of the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues, tongues of fire, etc.) are in fact baptism of the Holy Spirit as you inferred.

Hello John - your question is not addressed to me but I did review your 6 references and I am not sure what your point is. There is certainly a difference between the ordinance of baptism (immersion in water) and the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit”. Clarify your question/point further and maybe we can all discuss it in more detail. Thanks.

Butch5
Jul 8th 2008, 01:01 AM
Forgive me, but you had time enough to tell me I was offering mere opinion when I cited 6 scripture passages distinguishing water Baptism from the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. You alluded to certain manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the lives of new converts (without citing scripture I might add) based on your interpretation that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit are one and the same. You said "scriptures please." And I said I'd be delighted if you'd at least cite scriptures that prove the manifestations of the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues, tongues of fire, etc.) are in fact baptism of the Holy Spirit as you inferred.

As I said... you had the time then...

I went back and read your post. Where is there any talk of manifestations of the Spirit? You also never answered the question of how one gets baptized in the Spirit?

Beantown
Jul 8th 2008, 01:06 AM
This is what gets me. You are saying the method of salvation has changed from the Old to the New Testament. Why would God do that?



Hi BrckBrln,
It appears that I am answering all your posts. Maybe it's because I find them interesting.

There was no salvation in the Old Testament. Everyone that died went to the same place. Jesus had to die on the cross and bring those worthy souls out of "the place of the dead", to Heaven.
There is no salvation without Jesus. He had to be born, died, and be resurrected before anyone saw salvation.

Beantown

Sjohn1107
Jul 8th 2008, 01:20 AM
Hi BrckBrln,
It appears that I am answering all your posts. Maybe it's because I find them interesting.

There was no salvation in the Old Testament. Everyone that died went to the same place. Jesus had to die on the cross and bring those worthy souls out of "the place of the dead", to Heaven.
There is no salvation without Jesus. He had to be born, died, and be resurrected before anyone saw salvation.

Beantown

:hmm:Are you sure about that?As far as i know before those people were born there was a heaven and hell..and what about the people that god chose to have a relationship with also...