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fewarechosen
May 22nd 2008, 03:48 PM
many forget this scripture.

26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

now what does that mean

first off there is a difference between follower and disciple.

a disciple must hate , but a rightous hate.
he must look at all those things and hate them from in his heart, and think all those things seperate me from god i hate them. he must beg god to take him away from them. he must hate his flesh and the fact that he is incased in it. he must hate all the pleasure earthly things bring becuase he knows they are all there to tempt him away from god.
your wife, child, family, all matter not and all are corrupt and do seperate you from god. christ says sell all that you have. hate it so it boils your blood and you beg god to take you to him and let you do his works. burn those items in your heart knowing that none if them shall be saved except god chooses.
your wife and child may burn but that is of no importance god is your family not flesh and blood.
if you wish truly good things for them. you will sell them to god and walk as christ did. then when you count all as dung and die daily your prayers will have power. for then you will know how to pray. for you will not be a tinkering symbol any longer.
if you start to build and those things are not hated the little earthyl care you have will fester and it will drag you away from your tower- then they will mock you saying he did not first count the cost of building such a thing.

his disciples walk as he did.

when they said christ your mother is here.
he said that is not my mother. ---- im not gonna edit that out but it is an error, it was an oversimplification, but the point of what i was saying remains the same.

when you hate all such things, then god will show you how to be a disciple and what is required of you.

for many are called but few are chosen

and i do try to say this with love not a ranting anger of rightousness for i am no disciple for my heart is still on mammon.

but wisdom is justified of all her children

Buck shot
May 22nd 2008, 04:18 PM
I think you are taking it a little too far.

Jesus also loved his mother. Remember when He was on the cross...
John 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

What He was saying was, take care of my mom! Do you see what the desciple did next. He took Mary to his home! ;)

I don't see where you find hate in the way Jesus dealt with any that He loved. :hmm:

fewarechosen
May 22nd 2008, 04:22 PM
this is the qoute i was talking about.

46While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

so hes saying its not the flesh and blood that makes one his family but whosever does his will.
and our family is the same as his if wea re baptised with him.

im not saying hate as in im gona treat you bad hate, im talking about rightous hate the kind christ says was needed to be his disciple, you can hate everyitihng about the person but yet still treat them with love. but make no mistake -- the christ said hate

the reason he uses the term hate is because even if you love your wife and child they are earthly cares and do seperate you from god with earthly things. hence christ not raising and children and such -for he was truly about his fathers works and we should walk as him.
but we dont have the strength we say ,you know i want a lil comfort ,i want somoene who is glad to see me when im home, all greedy things that we cling too. christ ahd no place to lay his head, why should his disciples. the servent is not better than the master.

yet if we really loved a woman wouldnt we serve her better by walking as christ and praying for her.

now dont get me wrong im not saying go get a divorce and put your kid up for adoption.

Athanasius
May 22nd 2008, 04:29 PM
How can you hate your father, mother, wife and brethen, when at the same time you are commanded to love all (enemies and neighbors)? The answer is this: you must 'hate' in that you must love God above all else.

Now I'm hesitant on saying this next part... But I think I should bring it up.
You said:

he must hate his flesh and the fact that he is incased in it. he must hate all the pleasure earthly things bring becuase he knows they are all there to tempt him away from god.

This is verging on Gnosticism, where do you find this view in the Bible, that we should hate our earthly bodies? We are, after all, going to have 'these' bodies for eternity. Mind you, they will be risen, but they will still be bodies.

crawfish
May 22nd 2008, 04:40 PM
The Strong's Greek Dictionary has this definition of the original word:
From a primary misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension, to love less -- hate(-ful).

If "love less" could be applied here, it might make more sense.

Buck shot
May 22nd 2008, 04:47 PM
. but make no mistake -- the christ said hate

.

Okay, the only time Jesus used "hate" toward the family was to tell us to count our cost before we decide to follow him. Read below...

Luke 14:25And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
34Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? 35It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
He is saying if you are not willing to give up what you have including your family you are not worthy. He is not telling you to, He just wants you to know what the price could be before you start so you won't back out later. Very wise if you ask me...
I agree that your true family is you brothers and sisters in Christ of course. I am glad that some of my blood family are in my true family, still praying for others. This was even brought up in the sermon Sunday that we may not be blood kin but there is a more valuable liquid that bonds us, LIVING WATER flows thru our true families veins.

timmyb
May 22nd 2008, 04:49 PM
if you look at the Greek... hate was the word for favor less

fewarechosen
May 22nd 2008, 05:08 PM
you hate the flesh in that it is corruptable- when we are risen our bodies will not be subject to corruption.

now im not saying hate in im gonna push pins in my skin hate. im talking about a hate that is the longing for something more.

do you not hate the fact you are seperated from god ?

when we are born in spirit our flesh sins but we do not

dont you hate the fact that your body still wants to sin ?

thats the hate i mean

yoour body is your temple , so im not saying hate it in the way that you are ungratefull. but hate it in the way tha it pulls you away from god.

and remember christ could have chose not say say hate- he could have jsut said dont put them before me-- but he didnt.

and also remember hes talking about DISCIPLES
a disciple walks as he did - thats different than just being a believer


and xel no need to hesitate i say please pick away at what im saying we have much to learn.
im not beyond reproach or error. but please now i do say these things in a spirit of love , not to mock any or call them fools for not thinking as i do.
for we all have different gifts

Frances
May 22nd 2008, 05:37 PM
yoour body is your temple ,

No, my friend, as a Christian my body is the temple of the Holy Spirit(1 Corinthians 6:19).

Our flesh only Sins because we allow it to - it does nothing on it's own.

fewarechosen
May 22nd 2008, 05:42 PM
frances i completely agree

just didnt include holy spirit after sorry bout that.
without the holy spirit we are nothing

i agree that we allow our body to sin -- the only thing i might disagree with is that i feel our bodies tempt us

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

moonglow
May 22nd 2008, 05:55 PM
fewarechosen, your first post really bothers me in saying to hate anyone actually...the bible is clear the husband is to love his wife.

Ephesians 5:28
So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself

And saying not to worry about their salvation...also doesn't go along with the bible:

Ephesians 5:
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

All Jesus was saying, as others pointed out, was to love Him first and the most...without Him no marriage can work, no successful raising of children can work...nothing can work. He didn't mean to actually hate them as the world defines hate..that would contradict the rest of His teachings in loving everyone. And as you see in that passage it says, no man hates his own flesh,...the bible just means the sins we do as others pointed out. The only thing we are to hate is sin..sin in ourselves most of all.

If I took your first post alone and believed you, I would think, why ever get married or have children in the first place? They would be in the way to getting to God...so why have them? I would think if I had them I should literally hate them and that goes against the teachings in the bible. God is about love not hate...being concerned with their salvation is utmost important for a husband and father for he is the spiritual leader of the home. Its his responsibility they are lead to Christ (though the husband shouldn't be marrying a nonbeliever to start with anyway).

Several of the disciples were married and we don't read any verses of them hating their wives at all...I image if they did, Jesus would have corrected them for it.

I really don't know that there is a difference between a disciple and a believer anyway.

God bless

fewarechosen
May 22nd 2008, 06:15 PM
moonglow its fine to disagree with me.

would you agree you can love your wife or any person yet hate that they sin ?
that is the hate i am talking about, not hating your wife like you resent her.

but remember christ said hate for a reason.
he could have just said if any man loves anyting more than me -- but he didnt he chose hate.

and again that is for disciples.
christ had followers that believed but they did no works for they were not disciples.

and i agree why would someone get married ? its only for self satisfaction or else he would forsake all he has and follow christ. christ had no wife why should his DISCIPLES.

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
again christ chose to use hate

knuckledamus
May 22nd 2008, 06:16 PM
Jesus also said to cut off our arms and pluck out our eyes. You first!:lol:

knuckledamus
May 22nd 2008, 06:19 PM
and i agree why would someone get married ? its only for self satisfaction or else he would forsake all he has and follow christ. christ had no wife why should his DISCIPLES.

Paul was really clear about this. We get married so we won't live in lust. He wished we were all like him, but if we aren't we need to get married. I'm not bashing the Catholic Church, but ever seen what happened in the Catholic church because priests were forbidden marriage?

fewarechosen
May 22nd 2008, 06:27 PM
if we cant contain we are to marry.

and by contain i dont mean just bottle it up and try to hold it back even though its still there


and i totally agree with you asking see what happens when they try to forbid.

knuckledamus
May 22nd 2008, 06:53 PM
Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. 2 But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. 8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. (1 Corinthians 7:1-9 NIV)

It's very clear here what Paul thought of marriage.

threebigrocks
May 22nd 2008, 07:36 PM
moonglow its fine to disagree with me.

would you agree you can love your wife or any person yet hate that they sin ?
that is the hate i am talking about, not hating your wife like you resent her.

but remember christ said hate for a reason.
he could have just said if any man loves anyting more than me -- but he didnt he chose hate.

and again that is for disciples.
christ had followers that believed but they did no works for they were not disciples.

and i agree why would someone get married ? its only for self satisfaction or else he would forsake all he has and follow christ. christ had no wife why should his DISCIPLES.

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
again christ chose to use hate

Well, that contradicts John 3;16 quite dramatically. How in the world do you reconcile that? :hmm:

It's a contrast. Everything is comparison to our salvation, our eternity with God - of course it is going to pale.

Are you married?

moonglow
May 22nd 2008, 07:36 PM
[QUOTE=fewarechosen;1647644]moonglow its fine to disagree with me.

would you agree you can love your wife or any person yet hate that they sin ?
that is the hate i am talking about, not hating your wife like you resent her.

But that isn't what you said in your first post...you said to hate them and not even care if they are doomed or not. Jesus never ever said that. If He didn't care about people being doomed He would have never come in the first place.

How are you going to hate the sin in your wife and not hate her? If you can do this, then I would assume she could also hate the sin in you too...right?



but remember christ said hate for a reason.
he could have just said if any man loves anyting more than me -- but he didnt he chose hate.

There are many words in the bible that do not mean the same thing as the world defines them. For instance in Revelation it says Jesus will return with a sword coming out of His mouth. Are we to think this means a real sword? Wouldn't He be choking on it and getting cut up? No. In the bible the word Sword means the Word of God.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Revelation 19:15
Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

So we see here not to take this literally...Jesus does not return with a real sword in His mouth...but the Word of God. This is the case here...you have to remember we are reading an english translation of the Hebrew text...this is why others told you what the original word was and that it meant 'love less' or 'not as much'. The bible clearly tells husbands to LOVE their wives...Jesus is saying Love me more...that's all. you are taking it far too literally.


and again that is for disciples.
christ had followers that believed but they did no works for they were not disciples.

ALL of us have to do works.
James 2
Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?


and i agree why would someone get married ? its only for self satisfaction or else he would forsake all he has and follow christ. christ had no wife why should his DISCIPLES.

Then explain why did some of Jesus disciples have wives? The bible also encourages marriage. This is why God created Eve for Adam...saying, it is not good for man to be alone...

Here is what Jesus said about marriage...He never forbade it:

Matthew 19
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who madethem at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”


He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
again christ chose to use hate

So then we should go kill ourselves maybe? God created us to live a life here! What does the bible tell us? To GIVE up our life for Jesus...meaning...to live FOR Him? Correct? We 'die' to ourselves...meaning we die to our selfish desires and selfish goals and do the work He wants us to do.

Romans 8:12-14

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Paul echo's what Jesus was saying here.

I think you are taking things to the extreme here on being overly literal and need to balance it with the rest of what the bible says to get a clearly understanding of what Jesus was saying.

God bless

fewarechosen
May 22nd 2008, 08:18 PM
knuckle --this is a key part in your quote.

But if they cannot control themselves,

now absolutly nothing is wrong with marraige.
but on the same hand there is something better, and that is giving up all and following in christs steps

Athanasius
May 22nd 2008, 08:59 PM
Feware, when you were talking about the tower, were you referencing what Kierkegaard said?

fewarechosen
May 22nd 2008, 09:00 PM
hi moon i will try to answer some of those things.

your wife, child, family, all matter not and all are corrupt and do seperate you from god. christ says sell all that you have. hate it so it boils your blood and you beg god to take you to him and let you do his works. burn those items in your heart knowing that none if them shall be saved except god chooses.
your wife and child may burn but that is of no importance god is your family not flesh and blood.

that is part of my opening post now i will try to explain a little because you think i am saying "and not even care if they are doomed" i can definatly see where you would get that from what i said. i mean that all those things matter not in walking in christs steps. christ never said you must take a wife to be in the body of christ. so in following gods will it doesnt matter if you take a wife or not. if you do takea wife then that adds to it cause you have a responsability to love her as yourself and provide for her and all of that.

now remember christ saying the brother will be against sister, and mother against son and.....
now there are some christians that will have family members that will be judged and burned with the tares.
now what i am saying is that if your family members are to be burnt up by god, thats his will and it is good.
so if god decides it is good it is of no importance to you.
what is important is that you are trying your best to follow christ.

i am not saying treat them as they are not important because even if they are going to burn which does literally make them your enemy. we still love and treat them with respect.

we should care and love everyone without respect of person or relationship as christ did.
when we marry and have family we have partiality and choose to say well my family needs to eat and my family needs a roof over its head, and my child needs hugs and kisses. all things that need to be tended to yet do keep you from doing the absolute best thing which is follow christs steps and have no wife and give yourself to all of mankind.

now as far as hating the sin in your wife and not hating the person.
let me use this as an example. lets say your wife smokes your gonna hate that she pollutes her body correct ? but your not gonna hate her. if your wife murders someone your gonna hate that she murderd but your not gonna hate her.
your hating her in that you hate the portion of her that is capable of such things but you dont hate person in the im gonna treat you bad way.

think about your spouse or other murdering someone your gonna hate that arent you ? now that same hate is what you should have for the smallest of sin. for if guilty of one you are guilty of all sins. that same hate is what will drive you to help the person and help others. thats the kind of hate i mean.

the disciples are told to sell thier garment and buy a sword -- and yes its not a real sword and no it doesnt mean sell thier clothes.
now a sword is used for battle and to use a sword in battle you dont like what you are fighting you hate it.
and if you dont have that hate you will not sell all that you have and follow christ. that is why christ tells his DISCIPLES to hate those things.

hope that clears a little of my stance up i will try to answer more of your post in a bit.

fewarechosen
May 22nd 2008, 09:07 PM
xel it was this quote i was refering to


26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

when hes talking about cost hes meaning that if you go to be his disciple it very well could cost you your marriage or your family or your life. so be prepared to lose all those things to gain him. thats why you count the cost before hand.

thats why paul wishes that they would remain like him not married becuase then you have no such worries and you dont have to put your family through such things- among other reasons

fewarechosen
May 22nd 2008, 09:19 PM
threebigs -- when you sin dont you hate that you sin, dont you hate that you are capable of leading people astray and that you are a constant failure in front of god ?

that is the life you hate and that christ tells you to hate.
you hate your life in that you hate that you are capable of such things.

now as far as love -- you love that god made you part of his plan-- you love that you can help your brother -- you love all the things god allows you to do right you love all things that are good.

No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

this scripture notice - he goes from hate one , and love the other-- that is what happens when you hate your goods and love god

then the next line is -or he will hold to one, and despise the other--- that is you are holding on to mammon cuase its wordly goods that you cling to , and you will despise god because you are turning your back to his wishes and all his good works.


and im not married

threebigrocks
May 23rd 2008, 02:32 AM
threebigs -- when you sin dont you hate that you sin, dont you hate that you are capable of leading people astray and that you are a constant failure in front of god ?

that is the life you hate and that christ tells you to hate.
you hate your life in that you hate that you are capable of such things.

How is a new creation in Christ new if he still resembles the old man?


now as far as love -- you love that god made you part of his plan-- you love that you can help your brother -- you love all the things god allows you to do right you love all things that are good.

No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

this scripture notice - he goes from hate one , and love the other-- that is what happens when you hate your goods and love god

then the next line is -or he will hold to one, and despise the other--- that is you are holding on to mammon cuase its wordly goods that you cling to , and you will despise god because you are turning your back to his wishes and all his good works.

As I said above - the new man turns to God and turns away from things that are not of Him. Sometimes the flesh is very quiet, sometimes it roars it's ugly head. Just because it roars doesn't mean we succumb and give in to it's wants and desires. That would be self control on our part to resist sin, cling to what is good.

Matthew 6:24

24"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth.

If you serve God - it is possible to despise money. Goes both ways my friend. Money isn't bad unless we let it rule us, when we give our life for it. God is good if we let Him rule us, when we die to ourselves and live for Him.

This one short passage from Matthew doesn't tell us to hate. It doesn't make Jesus hate. It just means we cannot be Godly and worldly. We will love one and despise the other.

Matthew 22



36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38"This is the great and foremost commandment.
39"The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40"On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."



We are commanded by Christ to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves.
So, how do you reconcile John 3:16 with your theory of Christ being hateful and us needing to hate?

fewarechosen
May 23rd 2008, 02:39 AM
hi threebig.

i would like you to please answer the question so i can see where you are coming from- because we are having a misunderstaning about the hate i mean. then i will continue to try and answer your question.

do you hate the fact that you still sin ?

threebigrocks
May 23rd 2008, 02:51 AM
do you hate the fact that you still sin ?

When I do, which I strive not to do, of course. Conviction in one's heart shows the despise for our actions of going against a just and holy God.

But, that hate is not a part of every breath I take. Far from it. I don't walk around hating myself because I might sin. That is the flavor I'm getting from your posts.

fewarechosen
May 23rd 2008, 03:06 AM
ok now we are getting somewhere. btw i do appreciate your input and am not trying to trick you into anything just trying to explain what i am talking about.

ok so you hate it when you sin

now keep in mind thats the hate i am talking about

im gonna assume that you are with me when i say that christ also hates when you sin .
not you for sinning but the fact that you sin.
if i assume wrong please correct me.

now do you suppose that between 2 people who are baptised in god one could be given a greater understanding of sin than another ?

meaning one person would have knowledge of sin better than the other even though they have the same holy spirit

threebigrocks
May 23rd 2008, 03:20 AM
That can be a catch 22 question. ;)

A babe in Christ may not yet realize what needs to be laid aside. A more mature person of faith would have a greater knowledge and knowledge of sin.

Is there a particular doctrinal point you are showing to prove? Many will say hate the sin and love the sinner. But the sinner must change. The love through discipleship in the spirit of fellowship will reach out and lift up a brother or sister to help them up out of their sin.

fewarechosen
May 23rd 2008, 03:44 AM
first off im glad we are on the same page -

so now we have how we can hate something and christ can hate something and yet nothing is hatefilled or wrong with it.

now i agree that generally speaking someone who has been with god longer has a little more understanding than the other.

- the point i was trying to make is that some people are given greater knowledge than others , even scripture says some are given knowlege some wisdom some... .... ...

ill assume we both think its possible than one christian can have a better understanding of sin than another.

now what if the christian with the greater understanding felt constantly that he was sinning.
he would wake up in his house and think why dont i give this away i dont need it yet i still keep it because it was easy to do so and he wanted a warm place to rest his head-- but the whole time in the back of his mind god is whispering you dont need that come with me.
he goes to work cause he feels he needs money to pay for his bills and his house and with every breath he is reminded that he is working for a company that only wants mammon-- and the whole day it just whispers in the back of his mind come work for me you have no need of such things.
he is seeing and knowing that all those things and more are seperating him from walking as christ did and as such they are becoming sin to him because he is willingly letting something seperate him from something he knows he should be doing.

NMKeith
May 23rd 2008, 03:57 AM
The Strong's Greek Dictionary has this definition of the original word:
From a primary misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension, to love less -- hate(-ful).

If "love less" could be applied here, it might make more sense.


I also study a little Greek and this was asked before to me. And I had the same answer, and to this day I still believe it means that you put no one above Him. That you must give Him your entire life, that no man/woman things in Heaven or on Earth is to be put before Him.. That was a great response Crawfish

matthew94
May 23rd 2008, 05:01 AM
I believe, as has been pointed out in many replies already, that the opening poster misunderstands the 1st century usage of the term 'hate.' It really did mean to 'love less.' Sometimes, Jesus even worded it that way (Matt 10:37, John 21:15). In the context of Jesus' 'hate' statements, He is talking about making our relationship with God #1 in our lives. After all, it is only when we love God first that we are able to love others in the best possible way.

We should hate sin, but, in context, that is not really what Jesus 'hate' statements were about. The poster also creates a false dichotomy regarding believers and disciples. The poster also expresses a somewhat gnostic view of the body. The poster goes a bit far in his/her critique of marriage.

That being said, we should consider Jesus 'hate' saying very carefully. I think the following dialogue from Brother Juan Carlos Ortiz captures Jesus' message nearly perfectly:

I want this pearl. How much is it?
Well, it's very expensive
But how much?
Well, a very large amount
Do you think I could buy it?
Oh, of course. Everyone can buy it
But didn't you say it was expensive?
Yes
Well, how much is it?
Everything you have
All right, I'll buy it
Well, what do you have? Let's write it down
Well, I have $10,000 in the bank
Good. $10,000. What else?
That's all. That's all I have.
Nothing more?
Well, I have a few dollars here in my pocket
How much?
Well, let's see..30..40..60..80..100...$120
That's fine. What else do you have?
Well nothing. That's all.
Where do you live?
In my house. Yes, I have a house.
The house too then
You mean I have to live in my camper?
You have a camper? That too. What else?
I'll have to sleep in my car!
You have a car?
Two of them
Both become mine, both cars. What else?
What more do you want!?!?
Are you alone in this world?
No, I have a wife and two children
Oh yes, your wife and children too. What else?
I have nothing left! I am left alone now
Oh, I almost forgot. You yourself too! Everything becomes mine- wife, children, house, money, cars, and you too. Now listen- I will allow you to use all these things for the time being. But don't forget that they are mine, just as you are. And whenever I need any of them you must give them up, because I am the owner.

You see, it's not about hating our mothers/fathers, our wife, our kids, or even our stuff. It's about realizing that our relationship with God is worth more than everything else we have combined. It's about realizing that God is our owner. He owns us and all that we have. Once we realize this, we can redeem the concept of family, marriage, and material possessions by being loving stewards.

fewarechosen
May 23rd 2008, 11:46 AM
very interesting that everyone thinks its " love less"

6But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

so now if we go by the "love less" theory right here he is saying he loves false doctrine less but that he still loves it



or do you just take his word that he hates it

so there is the spirit of christ saying he hates something. i hope we can all agree on this.
that christ is love and is not hatefull or spitefull but yet he still says he hates.

fewarechosen
May 23rd 2008, 11:57 AM
i have a question for those who believe it means love less.


10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

so now i ask you does christ love those that will be tormented with fire and brimstone ?

when christ is destroying people with the sword that comes from his mouth ? will he be doing so cause he loves them ?


i dont feel i ever said anything was wrong with marriage - i just said there is something better and that is walking as christ did

fewarechosen
May 23rd 2008, 12:35 PM
its like when christ says to the rich man to give away all he has and sell it to the poor.

the rich man couldnt do it

give everything you have away having nothing
give it all up so you are poor and without a penny
then let god give what you need back to you

then you truly gave it away

but like most of us we say hey its ok that i own stuff its all gods anyway --but we never truly hated our lives and gave it away we use that as a way to convince ourselves its ok to keep our goods and its the devils works

fewarechosen
May 23rd 2008, 12:44 PM
Okay, the only time Jesus used "hate" toward the family was to tell us to count our cost before we decide to follow him. Read below...

Luke 14:25And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
34Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? 35It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
He is saying if you are not willing to give up what you have including your family you are not worthy. He is not telling you to, He just wants you to know what the price could be before you start so you won't back out later. Very wise if you ask me...
I agree that your true family is you brothers and sisters in Christ of course. I am glad that some of my blood family are in my true family, still praying for others. This was even brought up in the sermon Sunday that we may not be blood kin but there is a more valuable liquid that bonds us, LIVING WATER flows thru our true families veins.

buckshot btw well said.

matthew94
May 23rd 2008, 02:44 PM
Fewarechosen,

The context of a passage often dictates the meaning of a word. The greek word (Miseo) can mean the type of hatred you are talking about (bitterness toward) OR it can mean to love less. This is not complicated since we use the term the same way in English. I've quite often heard people say they 'hate' certain foods or paint colors (or whatever) in such a tone/context that it's obvious they are simply conveying the idea that they don't like such and such a food or paint color as much as their preference. So pointing out a verse in which hate means bitterness toward does not make your case since we all agree that there are plenty such verses. But it is clear that in some contexts Jesus is using it to convey the idea of loving less in terms of priority.

For example, when He says you can't love 2 masters, but must hate 1 of them, this is clearly not talking about having bitterness toward one. Jesus is saying that it's literally impossible to have 2 #1 priorities. Ultimately, we have to prefer 1 over the other. And when Jesus says to hate your father and mother, we know that He's talking about loving them less b/c elsewhere He tells us to love them. As I pointed out, though you did not respond to it, sometimes Jesus even worded it in exactly the way we're talking about: "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me" (Matt 10:37).

As I said, I agree with you that Christ used the word for hate for a reason. He was making a very strong point that every human struggles with. But we should understand the point instead of mis-applying it.


so now i ask you does christ love those that will be tormented with fire and brimstone ? when christ is destroying people with the sword that comes from his mouth ? will he be doing so cause he loves them ?

Yes, He does love them. If you had a child, would you discipline him/her? When you did so, would it be because you hate them or because you love them? Humanity is God's child and, though sometimes He has to discipline certain members, He does so out of love. To deny this is to deny many clear-cut passages in Scripture.


i dont feel i ever said anything was wrong with marriage

I know what you are trying to say, but your wording is very poor in my opinion. It's hard to stomach the claim that you didn't say anything was wrong with marriage when you said the following things:


your wife, child, family, all matter not and all are corrupt and do seperate you from god

This is simply not true. They do MATTER. They do not NECESSARILY seperate you from God. They have that capability if we love them MORE than we love God.


your wife and child may burn but that is of no importance

I mean, come on! Your word choice is horrible even if the motivation for your point is decent. The way you word it renders it untrue. Whether they 'burn' is of VAST importance to God (and hopefully to the husband/father!)


even if you love your wife and child they are earthly cares and do seperate you from god with earthly things.

They have the POTENTIAL of seperating you from God. They don't do so by their very nature. Your statement is an overstatement at best and simply untrue at worst.


we say ,you know i want a lil comfort ,i want somoene who is glad to see me when im home, all greedy things

It CAN be greedy and CAN be evidence that we don't find our comfort in knowing Christ. But it is not necessarily those things. God is the one who set up marriage in the first place. It is not evil. In fact, it is not 'good' that man should be alone.


and i agree why would someone get married ? its only for self satisfaction or else he would forsake all he has and follow christ. christ had no wife why should his DISCIPLES.

To be honest, you use 'overstatement' more than anyone I've ever seen in the history of my time on the internet! Marriage is "ONLY" for self-satisfaction? It's never b/c God has placed love in the hearts of 2 people? In reality, we can forsake someone AND be married to that same someone at the exact same time if we understand the command means to have our relationship with God be of utmost importance in our life. Some are called to a life of celibacy. Some are called to a life of marriage.

Surely you balance your comment a lil bit with other statements. But you wouldn't need to if you would just not use over-statement in the first place.

timmyb
May 23rd 2008, 02:47 PM
but when he says to hate your father and mother but the commandment says to honor your father and mother... to apply the extreme of the word 'hate' would make those verses contradict each other.. meaning that the 'love less' application would work the best here

IamBill
May 23rd 2008, 03:03 PM
Fewarechosen, :)

You are trying to point out a "fine line" between 'disciples' and 'followers' ?

fewarechosen
May 23rd 2008, 03:09 PM
yes bill that i am, many followed christ but few were chosen as disciples.

and i think many are thinking i am saying this is for everyone who follows christ, but im not

and matthew yes i do use poor word choice, and im gonna address some points in your post in a little while when i have more time. good response btw

timmyb
May 23rd 2008, 03:12 PM
fewarechosen,

one thing we have to remember is that the Bible doesn't contradict itself... to say hate in Greek is like saying love in Greek... there are so many meanings... there is this thing called context... let the rest of the Bible help you interpret where you are questioning

fewarechosen
May 23rd 2008, 03:18 PM
before i go for a bit.

you quoted this matthew

that He's talking about loving them less b/c elsewhere He tells us to love them. As I pointed out, though you did not respond to it, sometimes Jesus even worded it in exactly the way we're talking about: "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me" (Matt 10:37).

which is completely true-- yet notice how he changes it to hate when he is talking about being a disciple

thats for a reason or he would have jsut said the same thing he said there.

you can be a follower of christ and have the holy spirit yet not be a disciple you can be a follower. a disciple is chosen.

threebigrocks
May 23rd 2008, 03:43 PM
On the "if your wife and child burn, it doesn't matter" line of htinking - far from the truth from a husband's stand point:

Ephesians 5



25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;
29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body.


If man hates himself, his flesh, how can he love his wife who is himself?

matthew94
May 23rd 2008, 03:46 PM
Fewarechosen,

Are you implying that not all 'followers' of Christ are called to be 'disciples' of Christ?

If so, I severely disagree. But I don't want to rebut that if that is not what you are saying.

IamBill
May 23rd 2008, 04:47 PM
matthew94,
no, he is not implying that.-


IamBill -
Fewarechosen,
You are trying to point out a "fine line" between 'disciples' and 'followers' ?

fewarechosen -
yes bill that i am, many followed christ but few were chosen as disciples.

moonglow
May 23rd 2008, 05:35 PM
On the "if your wife and child burn, it doesn't matter" line of htinking - far from the truth from a husband's stand point:

Ephesians 5


If man hates himself, his flesh, how can he love his wife who is himself?

Yea I showed him that passage too ..I notice alot of things are being repeated to him on here over and over again...either he isn't understanding or ignoring them because they don't fit his view. :( I quit replying because its apparent he has his mind made up on what he wants to believe. :( You did some great posts though along with Matthew94 and Bill's..:)

God bless

timmyb
May 23rd 2008, 06:16 PM
there is a big deal here.... we often read the word of God and we neglect his heart... This is what comes of reading the Bible without being a student of God's person and emotions...

IamBill
May 23rd 2008, 06:32 PM
I guess I understand what he is getting at, and agree in that light. Being chose as A "disciple" will have certain requirements. (One of which would also include great understanding. eyes that see, ears that hear)
and/or willing to "put-off" that of the world/flesh. That would be difficult for most humans, and would be 'detested' as the mountain that stands before/between us.

But, Fewarechosen, I also think you need to look at what others are saying as well as far as the use of the word "hate".
Stop to think of what "hate" means coming from Jesus' mouth, which one could say is pure Love.
I mean, we (maybe)could pluck that nasty ol eye from our heads(HATE IT), or we could learn to recognize and not give in to it. (hate it)
:hmm:

timmyb
May 23rd 2008, 06:34 PM
I guess I understand what he is getting at, and agree in that light. Being chose as A "disciple" will have certain requirements. (One of which would also include great understanding. eyes that see, ears that hear)
and/or willing to "put-off" that of the world/flesh. That would be difficult for most humans, and would be 'detested' as the mountain that stands before/between us.

But, Fewarechosen, I also think you need to look at what others are saying as well as far as the use of the word "hate".
Stop to think of what "hate" means coming from Jesus' mouth, which one could say is pure Love.
I mean, we (maybe)could pluck that nasty ol eye from our heads(HATE IT), or we could learn to recognize and not give in to it. (hate it)
:hmm:

nice..........................

IamBill
May 23rd 2008, 06:48 PM
there is a big deal here.... we often read the word of God and we neglect his heart... This is what comes of reading the Bible without being a student of God's person and emotions...

nice......... ;)

timmyb
May 23rd 2008, 06:49 PM
nice......... ;)

I try.....................:D

fewarechosen
May 23rd 2008, 07:42 PM
im going to try and address the topic of -- is it really no big deal if your wife and child burn.

now first off in this life its your job to look after everyone not jsut your wife and child so in that eye there should be no partiality. you love your neighbor as yourself.

now when i say they burn im not talkling -- my wife is in a burning building --- oh no big deal the game is still on i gotta finish it.

im talking that god himself might judge your wife and child and find them worthy of being cast into flames.
god only ever does waht is right and just and good- so it was good that your wife and child got burned in fire for god said it was good.

now i ask you why does it matter that god thought it was good to burn your wife in fire. dont you rejoice and say ---oh father rightous are your judgments and wicked are my ways forgive me for coveting what you found worthy of flame .

or do you say hey god she matters to me i love her like you told me to why did you do that ?

timmyb
May 23rd 2008, 07:47 PM
how insensitive do you have to be to want to talk about something like that?

fewarechosen
May 23rd 2008, 07:51 PM
insensative ? i didnt name anyones wife i pointed no one out ?

if i am a sinner and i ask amiss would you not still help me with my question ?

so would you please answer the question.

and i do apologize if it offends it was never ment too

timmyb
May 23rd 2008, 07:52 PM
I find a topic like that very offensive...

I would rather not... I would not like to think of my (future) wife going to hell nor my (future) children... I don't think anyone else would appreciate it either.. and this has nothing to do with the original topic of this thread...

fewarechosen
May 23rd 2008, 07:55 PM
see timmy in that you do error and see how you cling to your wife and do not try and help someone who is trying to follow god.

you wont think a thought because you find it offensive.

yet if a brother asks of you your coat do you not not give it to him.

that is why many are called and few are chosen

now what of those who run that thought through thier head every day, what of those who feel that for everyone they look at.

timmyb
May 23rd 2008, 07:58 PM
to favor less is one thing... but the same thing goes for my (Future) wife and (Future) children...

i'm not even married to have a wife to cling to... I just don't think that anyone would even want to discuss something like that either... the way you came across was in the manner of not even caring if your family went to hell or anyone else's....

be careful how you word things... and search for the heart behind the word... I am sorry for lashing out at you but you need to be careful because you could get into some trouble if you aren't careful...

blessings

threebigrocks
May 23rd 2008, 08:03 PM
im going to try and address the topic of -- is it really no big deal if your wife and child burn.

now first off in this life its your job to look after everyone not jsut your wife and child so in that eye there should be no partiality. you love your neighbor as yourself.

now when i say they burn im not talkling -- my wife is in a burning building --- oh no big deal the game is still on i gotta finish it.

im talking that god himself might judge your wife and child and find them worthy of being cast into flames.
god only ever does waht is right and just and good- so it was good that your wife and child got burned in fire for god said it was good.

now i ask you why does it matter that god thought it was good to burn your wife in fire. dont you rejoice and say ---oh father rightous are your judgments and wicked are my ways forgive me for coveting what you found worthy of flame .

or do you say hey god she matters to me i love her like you told me to why did you do that ?

Go back and read what I shared in Ephesians 5. It's the husband who bears the burden to present her to the Lord without spot or blemish, to wash her with the Word daily. If he does his work, as a servant and with submission to God, why would they burn?

God is a just and Holy God. Whoever is granted adoption as sons and daughters and whoever is judged and condemned it is just. Your attitude here seems to be one of passivity - as though we can do nothing to reach out to help others to avoid that just condemnation. God wishes all to be saved - but we know not all will accept the gift of salvation through Christ.

So do something about it. Extend hope, focus on the promise and the light of the gospel and what you can do aside from sit back with the faith you have while others remain lost. God is many things - love, peace, hope, righteousness, holiness, just, forgiving and merciful to name a few. We need to not see the hope we possess now through faith as something that is prideful and oh well my neighbor is going to roast in hell and be okay with that.

We are to be convicted and hate it when we sin. We should be merciful as Christ was in all He did toward others because they are sinners. Hate does not put anyone of the faith in a place to share hope in Christ. Hate will not win a soul for the kingdom.

fewarechosen
May 23rd 2008, 08:09 PM
three big but you did not answer my questions -which does he do ?


and as far as its the husbands responsability to do that ok lets say it is and lets say he fails her at it yet still makes it into heaven.

does he complain to god?


and i mean no disrespect to anyone

but the question remains the same.



also is this really what you think im saying ?

We need to not see the hope we possess now through faith as something that is prideful and oh well my neighbor is going to roast in hell and be okay with that.

i never said oh well -- i was talking about being a disciple and why christ chose the word hate.

threebigrocks
May 23rd 2008, 08:20 PM
three big but you did not answer my questions -which does he do ?

He loves her, totally and completely, regardless.




and as far as its the husbands responsability to do that ok lets say it is and lets say he fails her at it yet still makes it into heaveen.

does he complain to god?


You really think that God will listen to someone whine about his wife in heaven?

And we don't need to theorize about a marriage relationship and the responsibilities and roles that fall on the wife and husband. NO matter what our spouse says or does, we are to do as scripture has clearly laid out. No guessing.

I am going to ask fewarechosen - please make an effort to at least capitolize the name of God and other names He goes by.

fewarechosen
May 23rd 2008, 08:28 PM
wow see how you say someone would still love the person god destroyed -- they would love what God called evil and in so doing would do wrong-- see how deep coveting goes.

now the ones who give all that up.

they are the chosen
the rest are followers

and no disrespect but God does not care if i capitalize his name because no name can cover him. but as to not be offense i will try to

threebigrocks
May 23rd 2008, 08:37 PM
wow see how you say someone would still love the person god destroyed -- they would love what God called evil and in so doing would do wrong-- see how deep coveting goes.

now the ones who give all that up.

they are the chosen
the rest are followers

and no disrespect but God does not care if i capitalize his name because no name can cover him. but as to not be offense i will try to

To never love in this life, even ones parents? We are not to be void of all things as such, even Jesus wept.

That makes us attempting to obtain righteousness of our own accord. We cannot until we are free from the flesh. That includes hate. Hate is of the flesh.

fewarechosen
May 23rd 2008, 08:43 PM
To never love in this life, even ones parents? We are not to be void of all things as such, even Jesus wept.

That makes us attempting to obtain righteousness of our own accord. We cannot until we are free from the flesh. That includes hate. Hate is of the flesh.


im sorry but you keep thinking that im saying to never love thats not what i am talking about at all i think you are not understanding the point i am trying to make.

i am trying to explain why in scripture he says for disciples to hate, nothing more

threebigrocks
May 23rd 2008, 09:03 PM
Okay, then let's return to your original post.


many forget this scripture.

26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

now what does that mean

It means that we must love God to the point of by choosing Him we risk making enemies of those whom we love. Doesn't mean we stop loving them. We just love God more.



first off there is a difference between follower and disciple.

a disciple must hate , but a rightous hate.


Righteous hate? A bit of an oxymoron.



he must look at all those things and hate them from in his heart

1 John 3


14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.


Looks like one who has hate in his heart would not have eternal life. I am trying to understand your reasoning, but scripture continues to point to a different conclusion.


and think all those things seperate me from god i hate them. he must beg god to take him away from them.

Indeed, God is our strength but we must also excercise the following and strive within that strength:

2 Peter 1



4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.





he must hate his flesh

We must hate our own flesh, and what it brings - death - without being born again. If we are born again, death doesn't matter. We are all destined to die once.



and the fact that he is incased in it. he must hate all the pleasure earthly things bring becuase he knows they are all there to tempt him away from god.


We cannot hide in a bubble. That makes us totally useless to God on this earth. We must excercise self control - there are many things in this world for us to enjoy which God has made. Nothing wrong with that.




your wife, child, family, all matter not and all are corrupt and do seperate you from god. christ says sell all that you have. hate it so it boils your blood and you beg god to take you to him and let you do his works. burn those items in your heart knowing that none if them shall be saved except god chooses.


God chooses by those who seek and find His Son. Those who do and follow the example set for us are saved.

My husband is a believer. I couldn't say that he's corrupt and he certainly doesn't seperate me from God. Rather - he causes me to grow and hold tighter to Him.;)


for you will not be a tinkering symbol any longer.

1 Corinthians 13


1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.



That clanging cymbal is one who is without love in their life. Without it - all they do is for naught.




if you start to build and those things are not hated the little earthyl care you have will fester and it will drag you away from your tower- then they will mock you saying he did not first count the cost of building such a thing.

his disciples walk as he did.


1 Corinthians 3



9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.



Be careful indeed! Christ did not lay a foundation built of hate.

IamBill
May 23rd 2008, 09:52 PM
So then, fewarechosen, All you are getting at is that it IS "unlikely" anyone here or anyone we know(for that matter) is an actual "true Disciple" ?

I see what you are getting at, but you didn't respond

fewarechosen
May 23rd 2008, 10:17 PM
hmm sorry if i missed something bill.

i think i feel it just needed to be said. and in a round about way i think that is what im saying. i am also talking to those people out there who will become his disciples so when they have that hate and it is overwhelming that they might stumble across this post and somehow not feel so alone, for they will feel alone and feel constant persecution from all angles even from the other followers and to be honest i do pray for them.

for i may speak amiss and not use the correct words and not know what i should, but god judges my heart and if i type these words out of malice and if i am preaching hate then my father will give me my due reward.

lots of people type strong words and say they have high faith and that they truly love thier neighbor and if i ask questions that challange that, i do the same of myself so that perhaps from the friction created we may both learn something

i think alot of us here myself included. think we love god alot and think we love our neighbor alot, but we dont really stop and think often of whatt it means to truly walk in christs shoes.

i was also trying to address things like why christ sent his disciples out to baptise and heal the sick and he didnt tell just anyone who was his follower to do it -- because he gave his disciples authority to do so. and many now act like they are his disciples but never hated thier life so by what authority do they do such things.
and i do apologize if anyone takes offense -- but if you are offended please ask yourself why.

IamBill
May 23rd 2008, 11:46 PM
:)
No, I Do understand full well.
and it is probably only because 2 eves. ago I went through an attack and ultimately was reminded of this -

i think alot of us here myself included. think we love god alot and think we love our neighbor alot, but we dont really stop and think often of what it means to truly walk in Christ's shoes.

It is not something the normal "human" can do. There is a line that most are Not able to cross, especially where Children and Spouses are concerned.

But .. are you forgetting that that is why Jesus Died for us ?
:hmm:

IamBill
May 23rd 2008, 11:50 PM
hmm sorry if i missed something bill.



I guess I understand what he is getting at, and agree in that light. Being chose as A "disciple" will have certain requirements. (One of which would also include great understanding. eyes that see, ears that hear)
and/or willing to "put-off" that of the world/flesh. That would be difficult for most humans, and would be 'detested' as the mountain that stands before/between us.

But, Fewarechosen, I also think you need to look at what others are saying as well as far as the use of the word "hate".
Stop to think of what "hate" means coming from Jesus' mouth, which one could say is pure Love.
I mean, we (maybe)could pluck that nasty ol eye from our heads(HATE IT), or we could learn to recognize and not give in to it. (hate it)
:hmm:

not everyone understands what you are talking about !
Do I ?

timmyb
May 24th 2008, 12:12 AM
hate is such a strong word...

fewarechosen
May 24th 2008, 12:13 AM
hello iambill

i dont think i am forgetting that christ died for us but in some way i am sure i am.

when you ask that question i think of christ asking peter about being baptised with HIS baptism and i think of the things the other apostles had endured.

and all the myriad of things they had to overcome.

now christ says some will come after him and do greater works than he.

they will have to pick up thier cross also and endureth till the end.

christs death on the cross freed us -- but god likes gold tried by fire.
he burns out the impurities and washes it and puts white robes on it.

--
and as to your question as to do we have the same understanding -- you said it better than i did lol-

peace bill :) and if you ever come across my posts and you feel i am in error or pridefull or anything please feel free to chime in. by no means do i think i know everything. but i think i see a little of what a lot are missing.

12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

fewarechosen
May 24th 2008, 12:17 AM
hate is such a strong word...


i agree timmyb --- and i hope i didnt come across as being a jerk. so apologies for anything i said that was offensive or belittling i wasnt trying to be so.

peace timmy and may god bless you

timmyb
May 24th 2008, 12:36 AM
i agree timmyb --- and i hope i didnt come across as being a jerk. so apologies for anything i said that was offensive or belittling i wasnt trying to be so.

peace timmy and may god bless you

:cool: not a problem fewarechosen.... but i would like to know what point you are trying to prove.... :help::note::help:

fewarechosen
May 24th 2008, 12:52 AM
hmm well i dont think i can ever really prove anything but i do try to get my point across.

i think to often many of us want to look at all the good in the bible and we often skip over some of the things that arent so pleasent to contemplate.

we like to think wow christ died for our sins im covered ill be baptized try to do what is good and i have it covered.

we hear things like sell all your goods and follow me -
do we do it ? heck no we say well he says all things are pure to those who are pure and all these things are gods anyways so i can have them--and never really taking time to look very very very deep and see that oh so tiny thread of sin.

we have also alot of people running around claiming they can do things they cant and it is leading many astray.

2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
6But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. 7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God

the nicolaitanes are alive and well

IamBill
May 24th 2008, 01:12 AM
peace bill :) and if you ever come across my posts and you feel i am in error or pridefull or anything please feel free to chime in. by no means do i think i know everything. but i think i see a little of what a lot are missing.


I don't think you are in error at all,(in case you thought I do)
I just see the emphasis on 'hate' hinders your point

which IS A VERY powerful one BTW. :)
It should remind us of the magnitude of what Jesus bore for us.
not to mention what God gave of himself- His own Son.

being "A true Disciple" - is nearly unattainable for "us"!

"come let us reason together"
:thumbsup:

timmyb
May 24th 2008, 01:24 AM
I don't think you are in error at all,(in case you thought I do)
I just see the emphasis on 'hate' hinders your point

which IS A VERY powerful one BTW. :)
It should remind us of the magnitude of what Jesus bore for us.
not to mention what God gave of himself- His own Son.

being "A true Disciple" - is nearly unattainable for "us"!

"come let us reason together"
:thumbsup:

i totally agree with Bill...

fewarechosen
May 24th 2008, 01:25 AM
I don't think you are in error at all,(in case you thought I do)
I just see the emphasis on 'hate' hinders your point

which IS A VERY powerful one BTW. :)
It should remind us of the magnitude of what Jesus bore for us.
not to mention what God gave of himself- His own Son.

being "A true Disciple" - is nearly unattainable for "us"!

"come let us reason together"
:thumbsup:

i think your right on the hate point hindering, i think i was hasty in wording and being confrontational because of bickering in other threads and now looking back on it i think i wanted some shock value just to make some people think, which is of course ignorant because of that bad intention i prolly drove people away. but live and learn. hey without my ignorance you wouldnt have summed it up so beautifully lol

and to be honest i didnt think anyone would even agree that there is a difference between disciples and followers. so thanks for the comfort.

threebigrocks
May 24th 2008, 02:12 AM
i think your right on the hate point hindering, i think i was hasty in wording and being confrontational because of bickering in other threads and now looking back on it i think i wanted some shock value just to make some people think, which is of course ignorant because of that bad intention i prolly drove people away. but live and learn. hey without my ignorance you wouldnt have summed it up so beautifully lol

and to be honest i didnt think anyone would even agree that there is a difference between disciples and followers. so thanks for the comfort.

I think we've gotten off on a confusing first step - I hope that you can relax a bit here and just lay it out scripturally, especially here in Bible Chat. ;)

IamBill
May 24th 2008, 03:14 AM
I wish you would quit beating yourself, and blaming me for creating a thread with such extremely important points. :lol:
Everyones input is essential.

"come let us reason together" - is what kept catching my eye

These issues Cut because they are hard Truths-
for most(All ? nearly All ?), there is a line we can't cross ("child" at the top of the list I imagine) Think of Abraham, put oneself in that position, wow.

Then think of God the Father- the Ultimate ! ...and for us ?
...and we then claim to understand, to "know". Have it ALL figured out !
I sure don't.
We did not gain "Knowledge" in Eden, we were blinded.

Rev 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Mr 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mr 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.


"come let us reason together"
:)

fewarechosen
May 24th 2008, 04:13 AM
i agree --- let us reason together.

i like the quoted scripture and the highlites.

first thing that popped in my head was -- i suck
second thing was yup i picture it now christ at my door knocking and me on the couch to lazy to get up.

i think it might be even harder for us closer to end times
for the flood from the dragons mouth is fully open. all the distractions we have available and the distance from the time of christ.

let me give you a scripture and see what you take from it. James 5-7


7Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
10Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. 11Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

now notice early and latter rain

i think that is talking about followers and disciples and how things sort of speed up at the end.

its like the early rain was the apostles and the later rain will be led by people who are "supposed" to be us the disciples who come later and do greater works than he including obviously the 2 olive branches.

now i think he uses the early and later rain because he is saying that inbetween the rain is a well lack of rain lol
which is meaning the time when men did no works and no miracles of god. not that men werent getting baptised that whole time but that no works and i say works as in miracle stuff :) (and im not saying for sure no miracles were done during that time) but it wasnt as it was during the apostles.now we know great works are coming for he tells us of the olive branches.

i see it this way christ was the early rain--then the rain trickled off like rain always does, the trickle off was the apostles. now at the same time the flood fromt he devils mouth was opening. first thing he did was try to kill and persecute apostles and followers. now the devils flood was free to run loose full blown babylon the great whore that sits over all the cities, and look at the world we live in --easy access to everything- tvs that you dont have to pay for right now , internet porn, heck a nice couch, false doctrine. we chose knowledge of good and evil and we got it.

now if we look at revelations
he sort of opens talking to the angel of the churchs.
which is sort of saying the angels will give us this message, for the spirits of the churches flow through us as individuals. these messages are for us as individuals and also as groups.


5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

with what i highlited i think he is saying -- you gotta make it happen start the later rain. the first works in building and strengthing the church and followers and also such as "miracles". the early rain started with christ and the later rain ends with christ alpha and omega.( i dont mean we started building the church christ founded it the apostles and others worked on it -day shift-now we take over building -night shift lol)

i also think its tied in with some will sow and others will reap
meaning the apostles and christ sowed the seeds- now this group of disciples is to reap it . the bible is out there and christ is known and people have the holy spirit, but now we must form now we must strengthen eachother and work together to build our knowledge and strength and every other gift god gave us-- we are the body and we better start acting like it.

because a place has been prepared in the woods for us and the flood shall not get us

i gotta take a break from typing i may have gone waaaaaaaay off course in this convo but for some reason i thought it was relevent. now im not saying this like --this is fact darnit-- im saying this like the mote is in my eye and i cant really see good but a lil light is shining through so ill try to describe it.


im gonna tie this all in later lol

i find it interesting that it is just -knowledge- of good and evil that got us in trouble.

threebigrocks
May 24th 2008, 03:43 PM
Lots of things there, wow! Have you seen our End Times Chat forum? ;)

timmyb
May 24th 2008, 04:25 PM
i am very impressed fewarechosen....

IamBill
May 24th 2008, 04:50 PM
Wow, lots to chew on there :)

Yes I believe J5:7 is referring to "anointed" - "Be patient"

I can relate in the way that - when I was Born of the Holy Spirit, I couldn't contain myself.
Given bits of understanding (drops), I assumed I had it All figured out :lol:
and it wasn't until I calmed down a bit (years later), did I realize I had quit listening to the teacher, and indulged in mans commentary.
Now, I wait, and receive the 'drip' with patience, if it be His will, and where it applies.

I can't imagine I would ever be "true Disciple" material. unless it were Gods will for it to be, and God would make that very clear "when the time comes"(if it were to be!)
But nonetheless, We All should strive to follow those Commandments.
***********************

knowledge of good and evil -was only the Name of the tree !
;)

fewarechosen
May 25th 2008, 06:08 AM
i think alot of us try to "figure it out" and forget the simplicity that is christ. LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR. understanding every word in the bible doesnt matter if you dont give food to the poor person knocking at your door.

i also notice alot of folks reading books about christianity and stuff and then they sort of adopt what the other person says and uses those sticking points so they can feel like they understand-- but its the holy spirit that teaches.

not to mock anyone but i often think of bible schools or seminaries or whatever and think, what do they do give you a phd in god ? why does man think they can teach about god.

lets say someone reads this and some truth rings in it to them. dont just believe what i say cause it feels true.
i will tell you i am a liar so why should you believe me, the kingdom is within, no one else will lead you to it. have faith in god not man.

i am talking to the ones who agree with me on these points.

Ephesians 1:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=1&verse=4&version=9&context=verse)
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

meaning god knows all that are his.

11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

meaning not one of the ones that where with god since the foundation of the world will be lost.


21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

notice if it were possible - so hes saying it cant be done.
so if you agree with me that gods elect where with him from the foundation of the world -and none of them will be lost-- and its not even possible to seduce them.

now i ask you who are you preaching to save ?
i could lie to you all day in here and if you are to be saved i cant stop it. you could live on a island never hear christs name or have heard of the bible and if they are marked as his nothing will stop it.

so why is everyone in a rush to preach, do they think hey if i dont preach how is gods message gonna be heard. and that is thier pride talking and they dont even know it.

i hear people asking how do i know what my gifts are, god says he gave us gifts.

how come no one asks hey how do i know if i know quantum physics ?

if you are to heal, you will know you know how to heal
if you are to preach you will know you know how to preach. but bewarned many will claim they know -- so trust no man.

do the work then you will see its just like learning anything else

purify your eye so the light can shine through, thats your job-- then he will add the rest to you.

now remember if i tell you lies i may hinder your journey if its gods will -but i only decieve and harm the soul of me not you.nothing can take you away from god but you.

i also hear things like " i am saved"
you can have the holy ghost do miracles and works yor whole life but in the end if you denounce him for any reason you will burn. so never say you are saved.

say i am saved if i abide in what christ taught me and if god chooses me to be.

judge no man in reguards to being saved or going to hell, not even yourself -- for when you say i am saved you assume far too much. you do not know the outcome of any man.

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword

35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

everyone will look around and say well thats not my family hes talking about we all get along and they are not crooks or murderes they are not my foe .

IamBIll i so understand on the drip , doesnt it kinda suck that we are the ones who are clogging the faucet instead of just letting it rip lol.

interesting point on the name of the tree never thought of that. and this other qoute of yours which i thought was true--
I can't imagine I would ever be "true Disciple" material. unless it were Gods will for it to be, and God would make that very clear "when the time comes"(if it were to be!)
But nonetheless, We All should strive to follow those Commandments.

thats all we can do

timmyb
May 25th 2008, 03:10 PM
the Bible wasn't written for scholars and the edumucated... it was written for the stupid people like me :P... That's one of my problems with the guys who try to make something of scripture and make themselves sound smart... the Bible says what it says... Guys like Smith Wigglesworth and D.L. Moody had no formal education but they were great men of God and they did amazing things for the kingdom because they KNEW GOD THROUGH HIS WORD... many people just try to know the word and they don't know the God of the word...

fewarechosen
May 25th 2008, 03:57 PM
the Bible wasn't written for scholars and the edumucated... it was written for the stupid people like me :P... That's one of my problems with the guys who try to make something of scripture and make themselves sound smart... the Bible says what it says... Guys like Smith Wigglesworth and D.L. Moody had no formal education but they were great men of God and they did amazing things for the kingdom because they KNEW GOD THROUGH HIS WORD... many people just try to know the word and they don't know the God of the word...


glad to see more stupid people -- now i got some company, -- that post made me smile ,and very well put in that last sentence i feel.

9Marksfan
May 25th 2008, 04:59 PM
why does man think they can teach about god.

Do you deny that God has given teachers for the benefit of the church?


now i ask you who are you preaching to save ?
i could lie to you all day in here and if you are to be saved i cant stop it. you could live on a island never hear christs name or have heard of the bible and if they are marked as his nothing will stop it.

so why is everyone in a rush to preach, do they think hey if i dont preach how is gods message gonna be heard. and that is thier pride talking and they dont even know it.[/quote]

But it is throught the foolishness of the message preached that people will be saved - God uses means and He calls us to preach to every creature.


nothing can take you away from god but you.

So God is incapable of keeping you to the end because you are greater than Him?


i also hear things like " i am saved"
you can have the holy ghost do miracles and works yor whole life but in the end if you denounce him for any reason you will burn. so never say you are saved.

Our salvation is conditional on one thing - God's commitment to us. Does He break His promises?


say i am saved if i abide in what christ taught me

So we're saved by our own efforts, then?


and if god chooses me to be.

As one of His "special" "crack troops"?


judge no man in reguards to being saved or going to hell, not even yourself -- for when you say i am saved you assume far too much.

So is assurance never even a possibility for any disciple of Jesus?

I've read through this entire thread and, while others have raised it, it really needs to be pressed - where do you see a distinction made in Scripture between a follower of Jesus WHO HAS THE HOLY SPIRIT and a disciple (who seems in your book to be an "elite" Christian - a sort of "SAS" man (OK, I'll translate for the Americans - Navy SEALS) - where does Scripture encourage us to think that there are First Class and Second Calss Christians?

The problem is - believers/followers/disciples are ALL the same thing - THAT'S the REALLY scary thing - if we are not disciples, then we are not Christ's - disciples are what we are to be and make - not believers or followers - disciples are all Christ is interested in - and a disciple is one who learns - if we are those who learn from Christ, we are His chosen - if we aren't, we're not.

fewarechosen
May 25th 2008, 05:49 PM
hey marksfan.
we are gonna be splitting hairs here i can already tell i pretty much agree with everytihng you are saying if not all of it.

do i deny that teachers are given for the benefit of the church, whole heartedly no i do not.
--but true preaching is living it and not just words-
i was trying to make the point that many rush to preach yet arent given authority to.

as far as thinking it is throught the foolishness of the message preached that people will be saved.
in a way i agree but also think of it this way waht if the bible was written by folks like us who didnt agree and had totally conflicting viewpoints. it would hinder and not help. the bible was written by folks given authority to write it.

as far as
So God is incapable of keeping you to the end because you are greater than Him?

great point to which i say i could be totally wrong,
but here is my line of thinking in scripture below

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

meaning he was christs but then left. and im not saying god didnt know he was gonna leave. just that he was one of gods but then left him.
and i think it relates to free will and being made in gods image- we chose to do good or evil all the time.
also it would be like this - once i recieved the holy spirit i could not do any wrong and no matter what i did i would never leave god -so why would he say abide in what i was taught..

again i believe everything is poosible with god and just as he can call you to him he can let you leave just like the son of perdition. ( i will go more into this later )

- now as far as sas or seal troops -- in a way i guess u could say yes that is the way

remember the parable of the men given the talents and the one who buries it

every man was givin a different number of talents-- here on earth at least --and no im not saying that the person who gets 10 talents here will be ranked by god as above the person who has 2 --thats gods choice.

if we were all equal here the parable would have been- everyman was givin 5 talents ,some buried them some brought back anohter 5 some brought back another ten. but he didnt he said they were all given different amounts.

also remember the one who had one and buried it was stripped of it and it was given to the one with ten.

also remember he said to whom much is given much is required. if all men were given them same he would have said -- the same is required of all men.



argh i gotta go for now again --but im gonna try to redo this post in a more comprehensive thought to try and answer questions jsut wanted to let you know what i was thiking

IamBill
May 25th 2008, 05:58 PM
the Bible wasn't written for scholars and the edumucated... it was written for the stupid people like me :P... That's one of my problems with the guys who try to make something of scripture and make themselves sound smart... the Bible says what it says... Guys like Smith Wigglesworth and D.L. Moody had no formal education but they were great men of God and they did amazing things for the kingdom because they KNEW GOD THROUGH HIS WORD... many people just try to know the word and they don't know the God of the word...


glad to see more stupid people -- now i got some company, -- that post made me smile ,and very well put in that last sentence i feel.

count me in :)

""edumucated"" :lol: :hug:

fewarechosen
May 25th 2008, 07:28 PM
what i find interesting is i will bicker about bible and interpretations -- but do i think to ask hey does anyone reading any of this need me to come help them work on thier house or does anyone need any money.

heck no i dont do that its far easier for me to talk about it than live it.

i could write the best most thougth out and true thing in the world but im still a liar and as such should never be believed

but if the devil himself told you 2+2 is 4 you would know he is telling the truth

(only used as a mathematical reference not to start some whole debate on higher math lol)

IamBill
May 25th 2008, 08:45 PM
So ? now you're saying the devil is a math a matichian At Yale ??














:rofl:
just kidden, just kidding ...had to :hug:

chal
May 25th 2008, 10:46 PM
chal > I think there has been some misunderstanding of the terms "disciple," and "follower," in this thread, so I posted some definitions from the ISBE. I included "apostle," as well, because I think that it is often used (wrongly) interchangeably with disciple. One may be a disciple (learner/student) without being an apostle (chosen), but I really can't see how one could be a follower (imitator), without being a disciple (learner/student). i.e., How can someone imitate something they have no knowledge of?

A disciple is a student of God's word (a "learner"), a follower is one who imitates and an apostle is one who is "chosen."

di-si'-p'-l:

(1) Usually a substantive (mathetes, "a learner," from manthano, "to learn"; Latin discipulus, "a scholar"): The word is found in the Bible only in the Gospels and Acts. But it is good Greek, in use from Herodotus down, and always means the pupil of someone, in contrast to the master or teacher (didaskalos). See Mt 10:24, Lu 6:40. In all cases it implies that the person not only accepts the views of the teacher, but that he is also in practice an adherent. The word has several applications. In the widest sense it refers to those who accept the teachings of anyone, not only in belief but in life. Thus the disciples of John the Baptist (Mt 9:14, Lu 7:18, Joh 3:25); also of the Pharisees (Mt 22:16, Mr 2:18, Lu 5:33); of Moses (Joh 9:28). But its most common use is to designate the adherents of Jesus. (a) In the widest sense (Mt 10:42, Lu 6:17, Joh 6:66, and often). It is the only name for Christ's followers in the Gospels. But (b) especially the Twelve Apostles, even when they are called simply the disciples (Mt 10:1, 11:1, 12:1, et al.). In the Acts, after the death and ascension of Jesus, disciples are those who confess Him as the Messiah, Christians (Ac 6:1, 2, 7, 9:36 (feminine, mathetria); Ac 11:26, "The disciples were called Christians"). Even half-instructed believers who had been baptized only with the baptism of John are disciples (Ac 19:1-4).

(2) We have also the verb, matheteuo, "Jesus' disciple" (literally, "was discipled to Jesus," Mt 27:57); "Make disciples of all the nations" (the King James Version "teach," Mt 28:19); "had made many disciples" (the King James Version "taught many," Ac 14:21); "every scribe who hath been made a disciple to the kingdom of heaven" (the King James Version "instructed," Mt 13:52). The disciple of Christ today may be described in the words of Farrar, as "one who believes His doctrines, rests upon His sacrifice, imbibes His spirit, and imitates His example."

The Old Testament has neither the term nor the exact idea, though there is a difference between teacher and scholar among David's singers (1Ch 25:8), and among the prophetic guilds the distinction between the rank and file and the leader (1Sa 19:20, 2Ki 6:5).

G. H. Trever

ISBE (FOLLOWER)



fol'-o-er (mimetes):

"Followers" is in the King James Version the translation of mimetes, "to imitate" (in the New Testament in the good sense of becoming imitators, or following an example), rendered by the Revised Version (British and American) "imitators" (1Co 4:16, 11:1, Eph 5:1, 1Th 1:6, 2:14, Heb 6:12); summimetai, "joint imitators" (Php 3:17); in 1Pe 3:13, the King James Version "followers of that which is good," the word, according to a better text, is zelotis, the Revised Version (British and American) "if ye be zealous of that which is good."



a-pos'-l ([ @apostolos], literally, "one sent forth," an envoy, missionary): For the meaning of this name as it meets us in the New Testament, reference is sometimes made to classical and Jewish parallels. In earlier classical Greek there was a distinction between an aggelos or messenger and an apostolos, who was not a mere messenger, but a delegate or representative of the person who sent him. In the later Judaism, again, apostoloi were envoys sent out by the patriarchate in Jerusalem to collect the sacred tribute from the Jews of the Dispersion. It seems unlikely, however, that either of these uses bears upon the Christian origin of a term which, in any case, came to have its own distinctive Christian meaning. To understand the word as we find it in the New Testament it is not necessary to go beyond the New Testament itself. To discover the source of its Christian use it is sufficient to refer to its immediate and natural signification. The term used by Jesus, it must be remembered, would be Aramaic, not Greek, and apostolos would be its literal equivalent.

1. The Twelve:

In the New Testament history we first hear of the term as applied by Jesus to the Twelve in connection with that evangelical mission among the villages on which He dispatched them at an early stage of His public ministry (Mt 10:1, Mr 3:14, 6:30, Lu 6:13, 9:1, ). From a comparison of the Synoptics it would seem that the name as thus used was not a general designation for the Twelve, but had reference only to this particular mission, which was typical and prophetic, however, of the wider mission that was to come (compare Hort, Christian Ecclesia, 23-29). Luke, it is true, uses the word as a title for the Twelve apart from reference to the mission among the villages. But the explanation probably is, as Dr. Hort suggests, that since the Third Gospel and the Book of Ac formed two sections of what was really one work, the author in the Gospel employs the term in that wider sense which it came to have after the Ascension.

fewarechosen
May 26th 2008, 03:28 AM
i had to laugh thinking about a driving by a church and seeing the sign say " church of the stupid" lol

we would all agree that we didnt know what we are talking about . lol

IamBill
May 26th 2008, 03:43 AM
That is one I would be willing to enter :hmm:

chal
May 26th 2008, 09:59 AM
i had to laugh thinking about a driving by a church and seeing the sign say " church of the stupid" lol

we would all agree that we didnt know what we are talking about . lol

chal > That's why we all need to .......

2nd Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed , rightly dividing the word of truth .

chal's prayer for the day >

Take me as I am (stupid, corruptible, whatever falls short) Lord, but please don't let me stay that way.

chal's conclusion > The Church of the Stupid would probably have better Bible tudy, because nobody would think they already knew it all unless they were crazy (with delusions of grandeur) as well.

9Marksfan
May 26th 2008, 12:26 PM
hey marksfan.
we are gonna be splitting hairs here i can already tell i pretty much agree with everytihng you are saying if not all of it.

Hmm - how is "everything" different from "all of it"? I quess as much difference between a follower and a disciple!!! ;)


do i deny that teachers are given for the benefit of the church, whole heartedly no i do not.
--but true preaching is living it and not just words-
i was trying to make the point that many rush to preach yet arent given authority to.

What you seemed to be saying was that every single Bible college and seminary is a waste of time, because you can't learn about God. Now, granted, there are some that are better than others, but the best ones are excellent and help produce godly, well-trained pastors - although I would accept that they cannot make someone a pastor who hasn't been gifted by God for that role - but they can develop that gift - agreed?


as far as thinking it is throught the foolishness of the message preached that people will be saved.
in a way i agree

If you hadn't realised, I was quoting from 1 Cor 1:21 - care to explain the "in a way"?


but also think of it this way waht if the bible was written by folks like us who didnt agree and had totally conflicting viewpoints. it would hinder and not help. the bible was written by folks given authority to write it.

Just as well it was, eh? God made sure it would be perfect!


as far as
So God is incapable of keeping you to the end because you are greater than Him?

great point to which i say i could be totally wrong,
but here is my line of thinking in scripture below

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

meaning he was christs

Er, where does it say that - could the "but" not refer to "those whom Thou gavest me", iow "but You did not give me Judas, because he was the son of perdition"?


but then left. and im not saying god didnt know he was gonna leave. just that he was one of gods

Again, where are you getting that from?


but then left him.
and i think it relates to free will and being made in gods image- we chose to do good or evil all the time.

Actually we don't choose to do good at all - that's what the Fall did to us. No one is good but God alone, as Jesus Himself said.


also it would be like this - once i recieved the holy spirit i could not do any wrong and no matter what i did i would never leave god

Where do you find teaching in the Bible to support that?


-so why would he say abide in what i was taught.

Because we are so prone to stray and God keeps us by ensuring we abide in Christ.


again i believe everything is poosible with god and just as he can call you to him he can let you leave just like the son of perdition. ( i will go more into this later )

So you are saying that God can and does break His promises? How about these verses:-

"And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one." Jn 10:28-30 NKJV

If God is going to let just one of His sheep perish, He cannot be trusted and we might as well live as we please.....


- now as far as sas or seal troops -- in a way i guess u could say yes that is the way

The Bible does not teach that there is a Christian elite - crack troops - that is the path to spiritual pride and elitism. All true believers are ONE IN CHRIST.


remember the parable of the men given the talents and the one who buries it

every man was givin a different number of talents-- here on earth at least --and no im not saying that the person who gets 10 talents here will be ranked by god as above the person who has 2 --thats gods choice.

Yes, it is God's choice how many talents to give someone - but are you saying that God ranks "crack troops" as His "chosen" and higher than "ordinary" Christians, who will probably fall away?


if we were all equal here the parable would have been- everyman was givin 5 talents ,some buried them some brought back anohter 5 some brought back another ten. but he didnt he said they were all given different amounts.

But they themselves were all equal and were all judged by the same standard - no hierarchy of spirituality there.....


also remember the one who had one and buried it was stripped of it and it was given to the one with ten.

Yes - what's your point? That the unfaithful steward was saved and then lost? Well, was he really saved? What fruit did he show? None....


also remember he said to whom much is given much is required. if all men were given them same he would have said -- the same is required of all men.

Amen.


argh i gotta go for now again --but im gonna try to redo this post in a more comprehensive thought to try and answer questions jsut wanted to let you know what i was thiking

OK - look forward to discussing more.

fewarechosen
May 26th 2008, 01:28 PM
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

the first point i am trying to address is man teaching and seminaries or wahtever.
and this quote covers it.

i need no man to teach it to me -- no man to give me a degree in god. now key to this is NEED, so im not saying that god doesnt give man the ability to teach and instruct. i am saying we dont need it. we need god , we need the holy spirit, but we dont need man to instruct us in the ways of god. that is why many are led astray---they hear a "preachers" words and never take the time to struggle and figure it out for themselves they hear something that makes sense and just agree with it and move on.


so i hope we agree on that first point -- that no man is needed to teach a person with the holy spirit. again i stress that is not to say that no man can teach of god.



as far as thinking it is throught the foolishness of the message preached that people will be saved.
in a way i agree If you hadn't realised, I was quoting from 1 Cor 1:21 - care to explain the "in a way"?

good qoute and no i didnt realise that was from cor 1-21 ( i jut read it now and there is also a little context to that )
but i still mean what i was trying to say when i responded the first time -- what if we wrote the bible ? its our responsability to not go "preachin" all in a rush or half cocked if you have heard that expression.
because what happens is all the division-- thats why we have denominations and such thats man all not being able to agree and then teaching confusion.

a non believer sees all the "churches" and all the people who claim to read the bible and thinks --- this book must be junk cause they dont even think it says the same thing, and in so doing we may hinder someone coming to god.

when i was speaking of "in a way i agree" i was thinking in terms of foolishness.

i was not sure if any distinction was being made between foolishness and neglect. so just think about it in that light what if the bible had all the apostles different viewpoints and not one solid front . dont we do better by having a solid front ? thats sort of what i ment

now as far as perdition its gonna take me awhile to find scripture and try and explain myself.

first off i think we read it differently if the son of perdition would never have been his he would have not said BUT- no need for a but if he was not his-- he would have said,
I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost.

he took it further and said, but the son of perdition.




38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
----------

20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


here are a couple of the scriptures i was thinking of- of which of course we might have different understanding.

notice the word overcome-- he is saying right there its possible to be overcome even with knowledge of christ

now to escape the world means those who have the holy spirit, cause without it we didnt escape.
now remember without the holy spirt we are dead men and we are none of his.

now he is saying to have never known of god and jsut lived a typical heathen life --is better than to have gotten the holy spirit then said forget that i dont care about gods will.

again if you couldnt turn away from gods will he would have said --- never fear you cannot stray nor go away from me.

i need a little break ill try to answer more soon

10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

fewarechosen
May 26th 2008, 02:19 PM
and chal thanks for the prayer in this thread .

had some funny thoughts bout the " church of the stupid"

count me in -- i could be a antichrist but i still hope im invited . ill bring snacks :)

timmyb
May 26th 2008, 03:51 PM
count me in :)

""edumucated"" :lol: :hug:

yeah... i'm from the South...even worse, Mississippi... we be simple folks down here... :spin:

ain't too many of us edumucated... i just happen to be a part of a House of Prayer down here and I love to study the Bible and to pray...

chal
May 26th 2008, 04:37 PM
and chal thanks for the prayer in this thread .

had some funny thoughts bout the " church of the stupid"

count me in -- i could be a antichrist but i still hope im invited . ill bring snacks :)

chal > You'tre welcome. The last church I was a member of when I lived in America was called by a guest pastor, "the most prayin'est church he had ever seen," so it's kinda part of my M.O.

An antichrist would prolly bring the best double devilsfood cake, so we'll invite you even if you are, but we'll only serve you angelfood to get you in the mood for a conversion.:rofl:

evrgreenjhawk
May 26th 2008, 04:59 PM
Hello and blessings everyone,
I was happy to finally catch up to the end of this thread and see the "fence" be torn down :pp

I have to admit this is one of few, if any threads I have read through that start off so opposed and migrate to great ministry and fellowship.

Lots of stuff here that has given me direction to think and grow.

I would like to offer some of my own thoughts that I hope give a slightly different light.

Apostles, disciples, followers- I think depending on the context, these can be used interchangeably for the most part. What may be interpreted differently could be "Maturity" of those being referenced. I think regardless of the context that all have been chosen. Even the "twelve chosen" at one point just did not get it and even frustrated Jesus at times with their doubt and disbelief.

Another point that was mentioned about "Preaching". For me just hearing this word can sometimes cause me to turn off. I don't believe spreading the Word means to impose our own ideas and interpretations on others, which I feel happens too often, but rather deliver God's own message through His Word and let each find the meaning of it as it applies to themselves, much the same as Jesus often did with parables, give them something to chew on and let them sort it out on their own.

Sorry for not for not giving credit with quotes or referencing scripture, but I did want all to know another had read and enjoyed the outcome (to this point especially) of this thread.

Peace be with you all

fewarechosen
May 26th 2008, 05:36 PM
yea - i am totally helping confuse the situation of followers, disciples, apostles and whatever. but i think my point remains true-- look at it this way.

And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.

now he said that to select people. he didnt walk by every person he saw and say that to. he said that to the chosen.

as far as ranking i think its very interesting,

remember paul saying he was least of the apostles ?
what did he say that for dramatic affect ?
or was he saying the truth.

if so it implys some type of rank.

now dont get me wrong --im not saying that if someone can heal the sick and prophesy and wahtever that everyone should look at him and think wow your a better christian than me-- we dont know that and its not important. what is important is asking yourself hey why cant i lay my hands over someone who has been in a car wreck and heal them ? surely its not god stopping me so then what is it.

chal
May 26th 2008, 08:32 PM
I think regardless of the context that all have been chosen.

chal> Then what do we make of this scipture?

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen

chal
May 26th 2008, 08:49 PM
remember paul saying he was least of the apostles ?
what did he say that for dramatic affect ?
or was he saying the truth.

if so it implys some type of rank.

chal> There is nothing that I can see in the definition (of least) or the context, that would indicate that it has anything to do with rank. Can you explain how you came to this conclusion?

Simply because he was telling the truth does not make it follow that "it implies some type of rank." He could just as well been telling the truth about something other than rank.

I have underlined and bolded in red the exact reason that Paul said he was the least. We don't have to wonder what he meant, because he tells us plainly and as far as I can see, it has nothing to do with rank or hierarchy. It seems to me that he is indicating a moral shortcoming for persecuting Christians prior to his conversion, rather than a position of rank.

1st Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

StrongsGreek (01646) least :

1646 elachistos el-akh'-is-tos

superlative of elachus (short); used as equivalent to 3398; least (in
size, amount, dignity, etc.):--least, very little (small), smallest.
see GREEK for 3398

fewarechosen
May 26th 2008, 11:38 PM
well dont get me wrong -- im not saying there is some man made discernable ranking structure.

he says least for a reason

if one is least one must be greater

if one is least and one is greater thats the sort of rank i mean.

otehrwise why would he make note of least at all


Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

notice they are both in the kingdom of heaven -- but one is called least cause while he was here he was teaching in error-- words not matching up with actions.

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

why would christ say least in kingdom of heaven-- he could have jsut said -- he that is in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

again why would christ say least-- he could have just said--- as ye have done it unto one of these my brethren.

fewarechosen
May 26th 2008, 11:44 PM
chal> Then what do we make of this scipture?

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen



for 2 more of my cents -- i think all are chosen by god first. cause he chooses to give us the holy spirit.

but then after that is another choosing -- the one where christ tells you to sell your garment and buya sword, and to count if you have sufficent to start the work.

like i think its also other things-- he chooses you for prophecy, or for knowledge, or for healing.
all things he chose you for.

and in a way isnt that a ranking ( i think i at least am getting carried away by this ranking thing , its not at all what i mean) its like if somone has knowledge of something more than you dont you kind of rank that person above you in that topic ? thats really all i mean.

evrgreenjhawk
May 27th 2008, 02:04 AM
chal> Then what do we make of this scipture?

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen


I was actually referring to those who believe in Christ, seek God or who may be labeled as followers, disciples or apostles. Those who have heard and listened to the call ;)

In the context I stated it:



Apostles, disciples, followers- I think depending on the context, these can be used interchangeably for the most part. What may be interpreted differently could be "Maturity" of those being referenced. I think regardless of the context that all have been chosen. Even the "twelve chosen" at one point just did not get it and even frustrated Jesus at times with their doubt and disbelief.

chal
May 27th 2008, 10:58 AM
for 2 more of my cents -- i think all are chosen by god first. cause he chooses to give us the holy spirit.

but then after that is another choosing -- the one where christ tells you to sell your garment and buya sword, and to count if you have sufficent to start the work.

like i think its also other things-- he chooses you for prophecy, or for knowledge, or for healing.
all things he chose you for.

and in a way isnt that a ranking ( i think i at least am getting carried away by this ranking thing , its not at all what i mean) its like if somone has knowledge of something more than you dont you kind of rank that person above you in that topic ? thats really all i mean.

chal> I think you misunderstand my post. I wasn't saying that there is no rank or hierarchy anywhere in the NT, but merely that I don't see how you can glean that from the scripture you presented. The scripture in context raises the point that Paul thought himself the least of the apostles, because of a specific reason (because he persecuted the church of God), not anything to do with position or rank. That reason is clearly stated in the scripture itself.

Do you know of any other scripture to support that view? One isolated scripture, with a questionable connection to the topic, in the middle of a speculation is pretty thin support. Especially if you neglect to explain precisely how it supports your assertion. I'm not saying that your assertion is wrong, but only that you haven't provided a convincing explanation or scriptural support for it.

International Standard Version (http://isv.scripturetext.com/2_timothy/2.htm) (©2008) (http://isv.org/)
2nd Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as an approved worker who has nothing to be ashamed of,handling the word of truth with precision.

KJV
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt

3 And they that be wise <07919> shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever . (wise: or, teachers)

Anytime we introduce a contrast, as the scriptures above, the former concerning approved, which implies unapproved in contrast and the latter brightness, which implies darkness in contrast we are introducing some kind of vague reference to a hierarchy, indeed when we say the sky is high and the ground is low, we invoke this contrast, but to say that each and every such reference invokes some sort of system of rank would be quite a stretch. Is the sky ranked more important than the ground? No, they compliment each other.

1st Corinthians 12 teaches us that although we have different gifts we are all of the same body.

This is the Christian ranking system;

International Standard Version (http://isv.scripturetext.com/matthew/20.htm) (©2008) (http://isv.org/)
Matthew 20:26 That's not the way it should be among you. Instead, whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant,

edit: Just re-read some of your posts and it seems that you are using a much looser definition of rank, than I took you to be. I took it as;
3. Grade of official standing, as in the army, navy, or
nobility; as, the rank of general; the rank of admiral.
[1913 Webster]

while you probably meant;
1. Luxuriant in growth; of vigorous growth; exuberant; grown
to immoderate height; as, rank grass; rank weeds. [1913 Webster]

chal
May 27th 2008, 11:17 AM
I was actually referring to those who believe in Christ, seek God or who may be labeled as followers, disciples or apostles. Those who have heard and listened to the call ;)

In the context I stated it:

chal > I see. I didn't chew on that one long enough before replying.

Now, moving along with the topic (not addressed to you in particular evrgreenjhawk).

When we say chosen, do we mean...

chosen for salvation?

or

chosen for a particular mission as the 12 (Apostles) were?

fewarechosen
May 27th 2008, 12:02 PM
chal your totally right.

i think what i was getting at is we as all being as one body must assess ourselves honestly and know for ourselves where we fall short.

i was using a very sloppy definition of rank which was way off base. i find we get to complacent and look for anyway out of responsability and how far we can go to walk like christ and its our responsability as brothers to prod eachother and bring those things into question.

as far as the choosing i was talking about in selling your garment and buying a sword.

the best way i can describe it is this
the same way i know that there is a christ and that god is real. is the same way i know i am called, i have been counting the cost for awhile now and its too great. I willingly turn it down all the time and in so doing i bury my one talent in the ground, i pick up the plow then say forget this i cant do it. i backslide and tell myself and give myself whatever reason i can to cling to earthly things. thats how i know i am not worthy to be his disciple. im all talk. that wont prevent me from in my heart knowing that christ is right and i pray i never stry from that.

so thats how i know im not chosen by him for that, not to say i wont be or anything like that cause god does what he wants. but when christ says count the cost, i do
and i find myself lacking.

when christ asks peter about being baptised with HIS baptism, that is what hes talking about. forsaking all and walking as he did. i still have the holy spirit i still know christ and god. but i do not forsake all thats the difference in the chosen i am speaking of.

and again i could be totally wrong so im all for doubting every word i say



while you probably meant;
1. Luxuriant in growth; of vigorous growth; exuberant; grown
to immoderate height; as, rank grass; rank weeds. [1913 Webster]

and yes to this defintion -- i should have taken more time to think and explain what i was thinking, but what can i say im hastey lol


also great question with chosen for salvation and chosen for a particular thing such as the apostles. i was sowing alot of confusion in my posts between the 2 in my understanding at least.

god chooses us for salvation -- gives holy spirit
and i also think he chooses for everything else- to be a apostle or heal or whatever

i noticed again this scripture.
Matthew 20:26 That's not the way it should be among you. Instead, whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant,

notice he says great among you - hes saying some people will go to more lengths to follow him than others - somewhere in there is what im getting at lol

chal
May 27th 2008, 12:39 PM
i should have taken more time to think and explain what i was thinking, but what can i say im hastey lol

chal> Hey I just had to admit the same thing about being hasty. :blush: Be encouraged! I think counting the cost is essential and self evaluation is a valuable weapon in the spiritual warfare we all face as Christians. If any of us ever find ourselves not falling short, we are deceived, because Christ is our standard and no one is as great as He is. I think we can be wrong at times even with good intentions, but perhaps rather that always giving the disclaimer that you might be wrong, pray for understanding first, study and give it your best shot. Be willing to stand corrected if you are convinced that you are in fact wrong. And by standing corrected, I don't mean conceding that you're wrong, to someone else's glory, but finding out why and correcting it. The "why," is much more important than the "are." We "are," all wrong if we lean to our own understanding, but we all can turn that around when we recognize "why."

God looks at our intentions and our potential. He doesn't judge us completely based on our outward appearance or by any worldly standard of achievement.

evrgreenjhawk
May 27th 2008, 01:35 PM
If any of us ever find ourselves not falling short, we are deceived, because Christ is our standard and no one is as great as He is.

Such an important message I feel, as long as we can realize and admit this and strive to change that which we are able, even if we do not succeed completely, I feel that is maturing as Christians.

Awesome stuff...Only have a few minutes right now but and reading your replies/posts brought to mind Romans 9, particularly verses 19,20 this was sort of a life changing chapter for me.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%209;&version=51;

fewarechosen
May 27th 2008, 02:34 PM
i think to many christians want what i call happy time.

its like hey christ said be joyfull- and i feel many have no idea what sort of joy he is talking about. they want the joy and they focus on that but where is thier tears that are like blood ?

thats why our earthly church is weak now and divided.
we want to convince others with words. but what is more convincing telling someone you have the gift of healing or cleansing a leper right before thier eyes.
gods not saying well we cant have "miracles" right now so he prevents us from doing it.

we prevent ourselves-if we are in christ and our eye is single then all that christ has is ours we would do even greater works than he. but we dont, and to rationalize it and understand it, to KNOW why isnt good enough.
we have to HATE it and know in our hearts there is no such thing as good enough , our sin should always be right in front of us lest we forget from where we fell.
dwell on your sin and let it comsume you till it makes you sick then do it some more till you cant function in life.

to the point where you cant hold a job and you cant pay your bills and you dont want to see anyone and your mind is twisted with anguish.

THEN let god decide to lift you up and wash away those tears

convict yourself of your sins know each and every reason you are worthy of hell fire. THEN you will see the JOY. then you will see why god is so great to have saved us.

but we coddle eachother and misuse patience when we should be zealous.

christ came not to bring peace but a SWORD

make no mistake we are at war and we should always be watching lest he come like a thief in the night.

so watch yourself for every thread of sin of the tiniest amount.be zealous and build the church counting all as dung.


Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

that is how to pray with THAT groaning. but we dont want that we want joy.

some will read this and say where is scripture to support that -- your getting carried away-- hate means love less--and many other things.

but i know what the holy spirit taught me. god has no tolerence of sin so neither should we. he has tolerence with us as we should have with our brothers but never with sin.

so now i say lets go watch our nice tvs, and sink into our comfy couches and be lured away with the flood for we are content to do so. but make no mistake he judges every action you do and holds you accountable. let the evil go on being evil and the just go on being just.

just thought it needed to be said

peace brothers

Friend of I AM
May 27th 2008, 03:14 PM
many forget this scripture.

26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

now what does that mean

first off there is a difference between follower and disciple.

a disciple must hate , but a rightous hate.
he must look at all those things and hate them from in his heart, and think all those things seperate me from god i hate them. he must beg god to take him away from them. he must hate his flesh and the fact that he is incased in it. he must hate all the pleasure earthly things bring becuase he knows they are all there to tempt him away from god.
your wife, child, family, all matter not and all are corrupt and do seperate you from god. christ says sell all that you have. hate it so it boils your blood and you beg god to take you to him and let you do his works. burn those items in your heart knowing that none if them shall be saved except god chooses.
your wife and child may burn but that is of no importance god is your family not flesh and blood.
if you wish truly good things for them. you will sell them to god and walk as christ did. then when you count all as dung and die daily your prayers will have power. for then you will know how to pray. for you will not be a tinkering symbol any longer.
if you start to build and those things are not hated the little earthyl care you have will fester and it will drag you away from your tower- then they will mock you saying he did not first count the cost of building such a thing.

his disciples walk as he did.

when they said christ your mother is here.
he said that is not my mother. ---- im not gonna edit that out but it is an error, it was an oversimplification, but the point of what i was saying remains the same.

when you hate all such things, then god will show you how to be a disciple and what is required of you.

for many are called but few are chosen

and i do try to say this with love not a ranting anger of rightousness for i am no disciple for my heart is still on mammon.

but wisdom is justified of all her children

And this they will know that ye are my disciples, that you love one another.

We are commanded to love one another. That is the royal law. Still the greatest of all the commandments is to "Love God." We are not love anyone or anything else on this earth any more so than we love God.

1st Corinthians 13 doesn't state that the greatest thing is hate, it states that the greatest thing that comes from above is love. If we love God, we will also fulfill the royal command of "love one another" given by Jesus. All of the commands essentially stem from the first command that Jesus gave, which is to love God with all your mind heart and soul.

In Christ,

Stephen

IamBill
May 27th 2008, 03:28 PM
fewarechosen :)

Again, the message here that God delivers through you is Awesome

The thread wavers back and forth over a few words here and there because it CUTS, because of it's Truth.

There is at least ONE line that MOST every human cannot cross. no matter how Righteous we feel we are, no matter how 'smart' or 'studied' we claim to be.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, NOT ONE:

:hug:

timmyb
May 27th 2008, 06:13 PM
I agree with Bill... you have a zeal for God... and a great word from him... Be encouraged you are on the right path... you have a few gnats but i'm willing to swallow them for the sake of the camel...

this thread has come a long way.. this is amazing the work and the hand of the Lord... Praise his Holy Name

fewarechosen
May 28th 2008, 12:54 AM
good timing with that quote bill , it sank in a lil deeper with me.

timmyb
May 28th 2008, 01:37 AM
It's always about One thing... Psalm 27:4 says that One thing I have desired and I will seek is to DWELL in the House of the Lord ALL the days of my life, to BEHOLD his beauty, and to INQUIRE in his temple...

Anything else is less than excellent...

fewarechosen
May 28th 2008, 01:43 PM
i just wanted to give a heart felt thanks to everyone in this thread. i often feel alone and adrift and its nice to actually get the feeling that we care about eachother.
i need to grow and have many things to learn and i just wanted to let you folks know through bickering with me and us battling over words and understanding greatly helps me. it lets me see how we are all different yet joined together in one body. if i offend you i hope you please forgive me cause i do pray i dont do it out of malice.

i dont want to take these things for granted as i do with so much in life.i dont often find the joy in life and having you folks around makes me feel it.

i pray we can continue helping eachother however god sees fit, we are one body and i want to love you as god loves me. so thanks for taking the time and helping someone in need i appreciate it.

peace

threebigrocks
May 28th 2008, 04:04 PM
Proverbs 27

17Iron sharpens iron,
So one man sharpens another.

timmyb
May 28th 2008, 04:22 PM
Proverbs 27

17Iron sharpens iron,
So one man sharpens another.

and that hurts sometimes... it's not an easy thing

Jerome1
May 29th 2008, 12:41 AM
It's possible to hate someone and love them.

2Peter 2:8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by their lawless deeds that he saw and heard),