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longtooth
May 24th 2008, 05:11 PM
I am a new member but not so new a Christian. Life committment to Jesus Christ by faith since 1972 & have never had the slightest desire to return to the old man.
I know who my God & Savior is. The Creator, Owner & Master of the Universe, my Boss of life. I am eternally secure in the power of His resurrection. In my few days here I have seen several comments about believing or not believing "once saved always saved". One thing I have not seen addressed is "Eternal Security." I would like to offer my thoughts on the difference in the two.

I am a VERY practical Christian & not much of a theologian at all.
I find the every day person that speaks of OSAS defines it something like this: you can be saved & then do anything, or live any way & still be saved. Then they prove that by David. He was guilty of adultry, husband murder, & the murder of many men fighting w/ Uriah when he was killed.
This definition is totally foreign to the Scripture & no where to be found anywhere therein.
I find that folks who believe the above have an easy believism salvation which is as unscriptural as their defiaition of OSAS. IT is a free gift so all you gotta do is believe. There is no real repentance nor is there any life committment in the above. Both are heresy.

Eternal Security now.
Saved is before secure.
Saved is repent, turn away from sin.
Converted = Changed. I am not that way any more.
Changed is hate the sin that ruins life & loving the Savior that changed my life. Converted is I am not that way any more.
I cant do it any more. Not because God wont let me but because it is not in me to do it any more. I can still cuss. I know the words but I cant do it because it is not in me anymore. I can gamble still. I know what hand beats what but I cant do that because it is not in me anymore to do it.
I am not that way any more.
When Jesus bought me with a price & I became His servant & no longer the servant of sin I live in Christ's Kingdom, I work in His field, & I play in His yard. I dont go the places that Satan owns any more.
In His Kingdom, field, & yard I am secure for all eternity. Jesus guards his Children better than we guard our earthly children. Satan can not rechain me & drag me away from Jesus my Savior.

Am I perfect & w/o sin. NO! But when I mess up I know it & run to my redeemer for cleansing. Does he kick me out of the Kingdom & let me back in after the cleansing. NO! When this Sheep strays my Good Shepherd comes after me w/ His Rod & Staff that comfort me w/ knowing His discipline is making me more like Him on a daily basis. I am still a Sheep.

My Savior told lost humanity how lost I was in my former state. He told me exactly when I would be saved. When I confessed w/ my mouth & believed in my heart that that God raised Him from the dead.
Since He told me I was lost, & when I was saved, if I could get lost again He would have told me that too.
Real repentance, life committment to Jesus in OBEDIENT faith saves to the uttermost. That is why I am Eternally Secure.
LT

lcash
May 24th 2008, 07:05 PM
I have know hundreds of folks that believe in "OSAS" and not one of them view it as a license to sin. That is not the view of any denomination that teaches that doctrine.

The differense between one who believes in OSAS vs Greasy Grace is this. OSAS believers understand the reason to abstain from sin differently than those who believe that you can lose your salvation. To the OSAS crowd the reason to no sin is because of your love for and relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. The others abstain from sin out of fear of losing ones salvation. That is a huge differense. To understand the OSAS view just think of a parent and child. If the child does wrong does he cease being your child? Do you kick him out of the house until he appoligizes? Eventualy the child learns to do good out of fear of rejection. That is not a good place to be nor a good emotional state for the child. In the OSAS view the parent does not disown the child but corrects the child and as the child begins to understand his permenance with his mother or father the good behavior springs not from fear but from the love that the child has for the parent. He does not wish to disapoint the parent because he loves them and know that the parents love them unconditionaly.

This is what Paul was speaking about in Romans when he stated "What shall we say then, shall we continue in sin that Grace may much more abound? God forbid." He then goes on to tell of the relationship one has with the father.

In my personal view I am in the middle of the 2 camps. I believe that a born again believer is secure in his salvation yet retains the right to intentionaly leave and break fellowship with God. In this case he is no longer saved and is no longer able to repent. This is found in the book of Hebrews where the writer states:
Hebrews 6: 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Lcash

MichelleQ
May 28th 2008, 03:05 PM
I'm in the OSAS camp but I do not view it as a license to sin at all.

Salvation is a gift. You cannot earn something that is free. But by faith we believe that we are saved through the sacrifice of Jesus and once you believe that, you cannot "earn" your way into God's grace--you already have it. But once we REALLY accept God's gift, we also get the gift of the Holy Spirit and we let the Holy Spirit convict us when we do sin and repent of that sin (repent meaning to ask forgiveness and make every effort not to do it again). We do this to THANK God for His gift of Jesus, not to earn it.

So maybe the OSAS should be Once TRULY saved, always saved. God's word says over and over again that once we are His, NOTHING (not even our own sin) can snatch us from His hand. You either believe that or you don't. The only unforgiveable sin is a sin humans cannot commit anyway. It applies to the devil and his angels because they had knowledge of God and the truth but denied it anyway. That is not the same as a person who has never accepted Christ (like an atheist) or someone who is struggling with anger and other emotions and in a week moment, curses God.

I realize this is a hot topic for many and I am not attempting to start any arguments. Just sharing my beliefs to help others who may be struggling with this issue, as I have in the past. This is where my prayers and study of God's word has led me. If you don't agree, I'm not upset with you. I just pray that all will come to a peace about their understanding of God's word and be able to have unity in essentials and grace in the nonessentials.

HUGS

godsgirl
May 28th 2008, 09:01 PM
I am eternally secure in Jesus Christ-not OSAS, because that's not what I believe the Bible teaches-and while some churches may not teach OSAS as 'greasy grace" that's the way it comes across to the people.

Really though, you will find that those who pronounce themselves OSAS will just say that the one who was saved-then lost was just never saved in the first place. Me-I am secure in Christ-He is my redemtion. I still though, have free will and could walk away from Him IF I wanted to-He doesn't have robots He has children.

MichelleQ
May 28th 2008, 09:13 PM
I am eternally secure in Jesus Christ-not OSAS, because that's not what I believe the Bible teaches-and while some churches may not teach OSAS as 'greasy grace" that's the way it comes across to the people.

Really though, you will find that those who pronounce themselves OSAS will just say that the one who was saved-then lost was just never saved in the first place. Me-I am secure in Christ-He is my redemtion. I still though, have free will and could walk away from Him IF I wanted to-He doesn't have robots He has children.

I agree, you do have free will and you can TRY to walk away. But in my experience, He won't let you. A truly saved individual, even if they try to renounce what they know (and I did just that once) will always feel that "pull" on their hearts. Just like my children, when they are disobeying, they KNOW better and they eventually come around. That's why His word says, "nothing can snatch you out of my hand once you are mine"

:)

9Marksfan
May 28th 2008, 09:38 PM
Jesus guards his Children better than we guard our earthly children. Satan can not rechain me & drag me away from Jesus my Savior.

I love the way you out that - so true. People on this Forum who think that Jesus just lets us apostasize should consider how commited He is to keeping us! He's not going to let Satan reclaim His own! No way!


Am I perfect & w/o sin. NO! But when I mess up I know it & run to my redeemer for cleansing. Does he kick me out of the Kingdom & let me back in after the cleansing. NO! When this Sheep strays my Good Shepherd comes after me w/ His Rod & Staff that comfort me w/ knowing His discipline is making me more like Him on a daily basis. I am still a Sheep.

Brilliantly put.


Real repentance, life committment to Jesus in OBEDIENT faith saves to the uttermost. That is why I am Eternally Secure.
LT

It's called Perseverance of the Saints!

9Marksfan
May 28th 2008, 09:43 PM
In my personal view I am in the middle of the 2 camps. I believe that a born again believer is secure in his salvation yet retains the right to intentionaly leave and break fellowship with God. In this case he is no longer saved and is no longer able to repent. This is found in the book of Hebrews where the writer states:

Lcash

But that's firmly in the NOSAS camp! It's interesting that the prevalent OSAS view in the UK doesn't get mentioned much here - it's that those who "decide for Christ" and make little or no progress and go back to the world are generally not described as "never having been saved" but instead they will just lose their reward! Like God is going to drag them into Heaven, kicking and screaming?!?

If you are in between the two camps, you are like me - only those who endure to the end will be saved yet those who are truly born again can never be lost - work it out (quite literally!)!

9Marksfan
May 28th 2008, 09:47 PM
I am eternally secure in Jesus Christ-not OSAS, because that's not what I believe the Bible teaches-and while some churches may not teach OSAS as 'greasy grace" that's the way it comes across to the people.

Really though, you will find that those who pronounce themselves OSAS will just say that the one who was saved-then lost was just never saved in the first place. Me-I am secure in Christ-He is my redemtion. I still though, have free will and could walk away from Him IF I wanted to-He doesn't have robots He has children.

Sorry - that just doesn't make sense - if you can walk away, and God ALLOWS it to happen, then you are not eternally secure!

9Marksfan
May 28th 2008, 09:48 PM
I agree, you do have free will and you can TRY to walk away. But in my experience, He won't let you. A truly saved individual, even if they try to renounce what they know (and I did just that once) will always feel that "pull" on their hearts. Just like my children, when they are disobeying, they KNOW better and they eventually come around. That's why His word says, "nothing can snatch you out of my hand once you are mine"

:)

It's actually "no one" but the sentiment is still true - you're mixing it with Rom 8:38-39! Good post, though!

MichelleQ
May 29th 2008, 12:54 PM
No one/nothing. Same difference. The "things" that attempt to snatch us away generally come from Satan (the someONE). ;) I am His forever, regardless.

grptinHisHand
May 29th 2008, 01:34 PM
So much better way to put it than OSAS. When we are IN HIM (John 14:20), we are eternally secure. We are in the hand of God, washed by the blood of Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit (II Cor. 1:22), and no man, nor Satan, nor any other can take us away. If -(I mean WHEN) we sin "we have an advocate with the Father, even Jesus Christ." I John 2:1

I have also been a Christian for many years. There have been times I was out of His will, and I knew He called me back to Him. From personal experience I can testify that when I didn't respond right away, He didn't stop calling me, drawing me, back to Himself.

I like the OP, especially where LT said, "I am still a sheep."

Me too. And I praise God today for that.!!
g

Yukerboy
Jun 1st 2008, 06:13 PM
As a believer in the TULIP principles, of course I am OSAS.

However, where I differ from most is that a Christian cannot sin according to 1 John 3.

Cannot here infers inablitity, not that a Christian should not sin, but that a Christian is UNABLE to sin.

Yuke

fewarechosen
Jun 1st 2008, 06:47 PM
i never heard of osas or nosas or calvanisim and alot of other stuff before i came to this board. i just read the bible. so alot of this stuff suprises me.

so i have one good chrstian friend in real life, and i was telling him about it -- hes like are you serious people believe in osas, i said yea they do.

to which he replies well then heck yea im all about osas cause how else does god expect us to party. then he raises his fists pumps them in the air and chants " go osas go osas ":pp

lcash
Jun 1st 2008, 08:01 PM
i never heard of osas or nosas or calvanisim and alot of other stuff before i came to this board. i just read the bible. so alot of this stuff suprises me.

so i have one good chrstian friend in real life, and i was telling him about it -- hes like are you serious people believe in osas, i said yea they do.

to which he replies well then heck yea im all about osas cause how else does god expect us to party. then he raises his fists pumps them in the air and chants " go osas go osas ":pp

Please read this scripture from Romans 6



Romans 6:15-16

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Now ask your friend if he is still so joyful over the ability to sin. That determines who your master truly is.

This goes to the heart of the Perseverance of the Saints. We abstain from sin not from fear of punishment but from the point of a servent that obeys his master out of love and relationship.

Lcash

fewarechosen
Jun 1st 2008, 08:08 PM
oh no dont get me wrong hes not osas at all, he believes he can be cut off of scripture says, so his worry goes deeper than anyones who thinks they are truly saved.

he knows he has the holy spirit so knows he has christs promise that if he abides in him till the end he will be saved.

he was just pointing out in his way the decieving freedom that osas provides for some.

lcash
Jun 1st 2008, 08:14 PM
oh no dont get me wrong hes not osas at all, he believes he can be cut off of scripture says, so his worry goes deeper than anyones who thinks they are truly saved.

he knows he has the holy spirit so knows he has christs promise that if he abides in him till the end he will be saved.

he was just pointing out in his way the decieving freedom that osas provides for some.

Which it does not! If you knew what the perseverance of the saints was truly about you could not make that statement. It is not about freedom to sin, never has been and never will. Only to those who do not understand.

Lcash

alethos
Jun 1st 2008, 08:26 PM
Sorry - that just doesn't make sense - if you can walk away, and God ALLOWS it to happen, then you are not eternally secure!

The phrase "eternally secure" is not found in Scripture.

The following phrase is one which can be found in Scripture

"departing from the faith" (1 Tim 4:1) which equals apostasy

alethos
Jun 1st 2008, 08:28 PM
a Christian is UNABLE to sin.



?????????????????????????

So are you saying you never sin?

graceforme
Jun 2nd 2008, 12:29 AM
As a believer in the TULIP principles, of course I am OSAS.

However, where I differ from most is that a Christian cannot sin according to 1 John 3.

Cannot here infers inablitity, not that a Christian should not sin, but that a Christian is UNABLE to sin.

Yuke


In my mind, any Christian who claims they cannot sin or don't sin is so sadly mislead. We are ALL sinners - we WILL sin. Our only hope is the intercession of Christ on our behalf. I am so thankful that God provided a way for us to obtain forgiveness - the sacrifice of Christ for our sins. Sinless? No .... forgiven? YES! YES! YES!
We should strive to live our lives holy and blameless - to be as Christ-like as we can, but as long as we are on this earth, we will never be perfect. But, we should never practice sin or do things that we know are sinful. But our very flesh is sinful and always will be this side of Glory. The only One who ever walked on this earth totally sinless, and ever will, is Jesus Christ.

Many blessings to you.

Yukerboy
Jun 2nd 2008, 02:26 AM
But our very flesh is sinful and always will be this side of Glory.

Exactly.

Now follow this train of thought and understand why a Christian CANNOT (meaning unable) to sin.

1 John 3:4 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+John+3%3A4) "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Here we have the definition of sin. Sin is exactly transgression of the law, no more and no less. Now Paul states in Romans 14:23 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Romans+14%3A23) "But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin."

This, IMHO, is Paul speaking of the man who has doubts. One who has doubts, who is weak in their faith, who may be just beginning their journey with Christ, to him anything that does not come from faith is sin. I know, and I am sure you feel the same, that when I first started on my path down this long and narrow road, I was more critical of everything I did. I know a lot of what I did seemed to be wrong in my eyes and I would ask Christ for forgiveness time and time again. To me, as a babe in Christ, almost everything I did was sin and needed to be repented of.


1 John 1:8 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+John+1%3A8) "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." Yet John states later in the same book that: 1 John 3:9 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+John+3%3A9) "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

So, now comes the confusion. We can't claim to be without sin without lying, yet we cannot go on sinning, because we have been born of God. If only John had used the word should not instead of cannot. Sin can be done if it is said as should. The word cannot means inability to sin. Being born of God, we no longer have the capacity to sin. All well and good, but if we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves.

Going backwards in the Bible shows the answer. The reason I am in love with the Scriptures so much is that where one passage may raise a question, another passage may answer it.

Paul says in Romans 7:20 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Romans+7%3A20) "Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

Here he says if I do (sin) and I do not want to do (sin), then it is no longer I who do it (sin), but the sin living in me does it (sin).

Paul is saying he no longer sins as accorded to John. However, Paul acknowledges that sin lives within him , so he does not claim to be without sin.

1 Corinthians 6:11 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+6%3A11) "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Paul here is telling you all this in the past tense. What exactly does sanctified mean? What exactly does justified mean? This is not a work in progress. Once one is born of God, these actions are done and over with. Everything you do is justified. Everything about your soul has been washed and sanctified. You are spiritual now. Your soul has been cleansed. You, as John said, cannot sin. However, you in this unwashed fleshly body have sin living in you.

Colossians 2:13 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Colossians+2%3A13) "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,"

Finally, all means all. God did not just forgive your past sins. He forgave your present sins, and all being all, forgave your future sins as well. When God does anything (washing, justifying, sanctifying), it is done once for all time.

Yuke

Yukerboy
Jun 2nd 2008, 02:29 AM
So are you saying you never sin?


Of course not.

It's John and Paul saying this, not me.

Not only me, but you, whether you believe it or not, CANNOT sin. You don't have the ability to sin. Your flesh does, and we are commanded to strive daily against the flesh, but it is no longer you, whose soul has been washed, sanctified, glorified, and justified by the blood of Christ, sinning.

Yuke

Athanasius
Jun 2nd 2008, 03:38 AM
"I" can't sin, but "MY" flesh does.
"WHO" might I ask, is doing the sinning, if not "I"?

And where have you drawn such a distinction between the "I" and "FLESH".

Yukerboy
Jun 2nd 2008, 07:21 PM
"I" can't sin, but "MY" flesh does.


Amen. The sin living within your flesh to be precise. You (meaning your soul, your id, your you) is unable to (cannot) sin.


And where have you drawn such a distinction between the "I" and "FLESH".

Romans 7:20

A Christian cannot sin according to 1 John. Unable to sin. Dare I say, IMPOSSIBLE to sin.

However, anyone who says he has no sin is a liar, and the truth is not in him, also according to 1 John

Sounds contradictory, which is why Paul proves it is not by stating "It is no longer I who does it (sin), but the sin living within me."

You have been called, washed, justified, sanctified, and glorified. God does not make mistakes. He does it once for all time.

Yuke

RogerW
Jun 7th 2008, 07:30 PM
Amen. The sin living within your flesh to be precise. You (meaning your soul, your id, your you) is unable to (cannot) sin.

Romans 7:20

A Christian cannot sin according to 1 John. Unable to sin. Dare I say, IMPOSSIBLE to sin.

However, anyone who says he has no sin is a liar, and the truth is not in him, also according to 1 John

Sounds contradictory, which is why Paul proves it is not by stating "It is no longer I who does it (sin), but the sin living within me."

You have been called, washed, justified, sanctified, and glorified. God does not make mistakes. He does it once for all time.

Yuke

Yuke,

You need to continue reading in Ro 7 beyond vs 20.

Ro 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

"Law", as used here, does not mean the Ten Commandments, but means operating rule or governing principle. We validate this through vs 23 which speaks of another law in my members.

Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

This law to which reference is here made is constantly discovering this: "When I want to do good, evil lies close at hand." Our sinful human nature has established a dwelling place within our souls with then intent of doing wickedness and evil; "evil lies close at hand". Whenever we desire to do that which is good, evil immediately interrupts in order to turn the good deed into its opposite.

This harmonizes with vs 21 and continues:

Ro 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Ro 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

We have within two opposing laws. The first is God's law, which indicates that system of moral principles or rules that are summarized in the ten commandment and even more clearly defined in Mt. 22:37-40.

Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mt 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mt 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mt 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

We, like Paul, delight in God's law according to our inner-being. But, Paul also sees another law in our bodily members waging war against the law of God, and enticing us to the law of sin. How this operates has been indicated in vs 21. Again, and again this law of sin causes believers to do what he does not want to do, and prevents him from doing what he wants to do.

Paul seems to be saying "If I could only serve God in a thoroughly unhampered manner! If only all my faculties of body and soul could be made effective for Christ and His cause!" We are unable to serve God as completely as we desire as long as this law of sin is operating within us.

Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

But, Paul assures us that we are not left in despair, as vs 25 shows us. We suffer in this life, falling prey to the law of sin living in us. We try hard to overcome, but in this life we never completely succeed to live in complete harmony with God's will. But we look forward eagerly to the time when this struggle will have ended. This will not be until we are delivered from our bodies of death and sin, and given our glorious incorruptible, immortal bodies in the fullness of time.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

As believers, living in these bodies of death, subject to the ravages of sin, we live in this present body of humiliation (Ph 3:21), and the terrible struggle against sin continues. But once the life in this body ceases, the state of sinless glory begins, first for the soul, then also for the body. AMEN!

Many Blessings,
RW

IBWatching
Jun 11th 2008, 05:13 PM
...I find the every day person that speaks of OSAS defines it something like this: you can be saved & then do anything, or live any way & still be saved...

What you are painting here with a broad brush is that everyone who believes in OSAS lives like the devil. I would offer to you that at the opposite extreme of the OSNAS camp, there will be Believers who simply "give up" trying to live a Godly life, lacking any sense of security in their standing with Jesus Christ, lacking any contact with the Word which can help them grow, and being yoked with the conception that not only can you fail to live right, you probably will fail. Add to this the fact that some OSNAS adherents will give "examples" of brothers or sisters who have "fallen away" never to come back or say that when someone does fall away they can "re-repent" again (which is impossible) and you have an even bigger mess. You have planted the seeds of hopelessness.

James dealt with the issue of those who have security of their Salvation and don't live like it. He questioned that their "faith" could be a Saving faith because the Righteousness of Jesus Christ within us would not fail to produce good works or action with our faith.

Neither James, Paul nor Jesus saw any "gray areas". You have either Truly Repented and as a result have been Saved by God, or you have not. There is no such thing as "falling away" from a Salvation that only God can Work. We can choose to do nothing. We can even choose to sin. Why we would want to do so when we recognize how Great God's Grace has been to us and how Great a Price which was paid is not easy to understand.

The arguments about OSAS vs. OSNAS are really ingrained in the idea that we can somehow "know" who is Saved and who isn't. We can't. Only God can.

alethos
Jun 11th 2008, 05:54 PM
. There is no such thing as "falling away"

Hmmmmmmmm! You must have a different Bible than I have.

Luke 8:13 And those on the rock are they who, when they have heard, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

1 Tim 4:1 But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith

2 Th 2:3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God:

.

Buzzword
Jun 11th 2008, 06:14 PM
Way too many acronyms flying around on this thread.


I have seen within my own life examples of falling away, especially when confronted with an argument or position or point of view that totally took me off guard and left me retreating from the onslaught, feeling that there was no real reason to believe Christianity anymore.

"Nothing can separate us from the love of God."
God loves people in hell. He's sorry they chose to go there, but He loves them.

Last time I checked, God does NOT strip us of our free will when we accept Him.
We maintain it, because without it we cannot appreciate His workings in gradually moving us to a point beyond our base human urges, to a state of being that is entirely God- and others-centered.

The fact that we CAN turn away at any time, and yet God trusts us to CONTINUE moving towards Him even when everything in our corrupt being screams to do the opposite, amazes me, and constantly keeps me coming back to Him.

IBWatching
Jun 11th 2008, 06:33 PM
Hmmmmmmmm! You must have a different Bible than I have...

Perhaps. Does your Bible have this?:


John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Here Jesus clearly says that those who Truly Believe on Him now possess eternal life. Eternal, of course, means forever. Not just until the next time you sin. Or the next time you miss church services. Or anything else for that matter.

Understanding how God's Grace Works for us is tantamount to understanding how it also Works for others.

mercychild101
Jun 11th 2008, 06:46 PM
why would Christ go to such lengths to save us, and then not work to keep us from satans power? and remember that Jesus said if you love me you WILL keep my commandments. It should be out of love not fear that you obay the Lord.

and for those of you who think that you can loose your salvation. Just remember that satan is very active in trying to destroy you. so if it was possible for you to loose your salvation satan would have already found away to make sure that would happen. do not underestimate satan he is a verry crafty serpent, or think that the desire that you have to remain with Christ came from you and not placed there by Christ himself. and if that desire to follow Christ was placed there by Christ then your not the one who is keeping yourself by dilegently obaying Christ it is Christ himself who keeps you.

he died for us while we were yet sinners. he calls us to himself becuase none of us would come to him on our own. and then gives us His Spirit so that we will be able to continue to follow him because none of us would continue on our own. and if you don't believe me look up the scripture that say's that none seeks after God and that none does good.

9Marksfan
Jun 11th 2008, 08:38 PM
"Nothing can separate us from the love of God."
God loves people in hell. He's sorry they chose to go there, but He loves them.

Chapter and verse for this contention, please.


Last time I checked, God does NOT strip us of our free will when we accept Him.

The opposite - he restores it so that we can CHOOSE to be obedient - before we were born again, we only chjose to be disobedient - that's why we needed to be born again! ;)


We maintain it, because without it we cannot appreciate His workings in gradually moving us to a point beyond our base human urges, to a state of being that is entirely God- and others-centered.

Again, do you have any Scripture to justify your position?


The fact that we CAN turn away at any time, and yet God trusts us to CONTINUE moving towards Him even when everything in our corrupt being screams to do the opposite, amazes me, and constantly keeps me coming back to Him.

Is there ANY verse in Scripture that says that God "trusts us"?!?

Buzzword
Jun 11th 2008, 09:00 PM
Chapter and verse for this contention, please.



The opposite - he restores it so that we can CHOOSE to be obedient - before we were born again, we only chjose to be disobedient - that's why we needed to be born again! ;)



Again, do you have any Scripture to justify your position?



Is there ANY verse in Scripture that says that God "trusts us"?!?

Scripture is not the only filter we use to determine truth.

There is no Bible verse that deals with whether or not the United States should have a space program.

We must also ask:
"Does this match with what I have experienced in my life and my walk with God?"
"Does this make logical sense?"
"Have others pondered this idea, and written comments on it I can read and discuss with others?"

The quote I used is something thrown around by the Baptist (and others) church. Whether it is from the Bible or not has nothing to do with my disagreement with how the phrase is used in OSAS circles.

We have ALWAYS had and always will have the ability to choose obedience OR disobedience.

Do all people who have not accepted Christ do ONLY sinful things?
No.

Do all people who HAVE accepted Christ ONLY obey Christ with no mistakes?
No.

Finally, how do you define "trust"?
Does not God desire a personal relationship with each of us?

If so, He does not move to make us mere automatons.
He could have done that in the beginning, and avoided all the trouble we've caused over the ages.

He moves to make us more like Christ, and to bring us into better relationship with Him, each other, and His created universe.

Only with His help can we hope to match the selfless example of Christ, and only by constantly CHOOSING to move towards Him, especially when circumstances seem to conspire against us, can we experience that better relationship.

9Marksfan
Jun 11th 2008, 09:18 PM
Scripture is not the only filter we use to determine truth.

:eek: What exactly is your view of Scripture? Don't you believe it is sufficient to instruct us on EVERYTHING we need to know SPIRITUALLY?


There is no Bible verse that deals with whether or not the United States should have a space program.

Of course not - that and a milion other things have no bearing on our spiritual well-being.


We must also ask:
"Does this match with what I have experienced in my life and my walk with God?"
"Does this make logical sense?"
"Have others pondered this idea, and written comments on it I can read and discuss with others?"

WHY must we ask these questions? Is the authority of Scripture subject to the whim of personal experience?!?! So called "logical sense"?!? Human opinion?!?


The quote I used

Which quote is that?


is something thrown around by the Baptist (and others) church. Whether it is from the Bible or not has nothing to do with my disagreement with how the phrase is used in OSAS circles.

How do you think the phrase is used in OSAS circles?


We have ALWAYS had and always will have the ability to choose obedience OR disobedience.

Scripture please.


Do all people who have not accepted Christ do ONLY sinful things?
No.

Wrong - we are dead in trespasses and sins and WILL not obey God - and therefore we CANNOT please Him - faith is needed (Heb 11:6).


Do all people who HAVE accepted Christ ONLY obey Christ with no mistakes?
No.

Correct.


Finally, how do you define "trust"?
Does not God desire a personal relationship with each of us?

Of course, but we make a HUGE mistake if we try to bring Him down to our level - we need to be RAISED to HIS level!


If so, He does not move to make us mere automatons.

Agreed - he renews our wills so that we freely choose to love and obey Him - by the Spirit!


He could have done that in the beginning, and avoided all the trouble we've caused over the ages.

But then we would never have known the extent of His glorious grace in redeeming sinners....


He moves to make us more like Christ, and to bring us into better relationship with Him, each other, and His created universe.

Amen! Although I think you and I will disagree on how He in fact "moves"....


Only with His help can we hope to match the selfless example of Christ, and only by constantly CHOOSING to move towards Him, especially when circumstances seem to conspire against us, can we experience that better relationship.

Agreed - but can we make that choice except by the Spirit within us?

Buzzword
Jun 11th 2008, 09:38 PM
I have quoted what we apparently disagree on.


1. :eek: What exactly is your view of Scripture? Don't you believe it is sufficient to instruct us on EVERYTHING we need to know SPIRITUALLY?

2. WHY must we ask these questions? Is the authority of Scripture subject to the whim of personal experience?!?! So called "logical sense"?!? Human opinion?!?

3. Which quote is that?

4. How do you think the phrase is used in OSAS circles?

5. Scripture please.

6. Wrong - we are dead in trespasses and sins and WILL not obey God - and therefore we CANNOT please Him - faith is needed (Heb 11:6).

7. Agreed - but can we make that choice except by the Spirit within us?

1. My view is that the Bible is a great source of knowledge of the inner workings of ancient Hebrew and later Christian culture, a great source of knowledge of what has been handed down to us by our spiritual forefathers, and ONE method by which God CAN speak to us, if He chooses.
However, I do not believe He is limited to speaking to us through the Bible, nor that the Bible ALWAYS has something to say to us in every moment and every situation.

2. I do not question the authority of Scripture, but if we do not ask those questions, it is far too easy for anyone to pick out any verse of the Bible and use it to justify his/her actions or beliefs, regardless of how irrational or violent or contrary to Christ's message they might be.

3. "Nothing can separate us from the love of God."

4. I have seen it used, essentially, as a dinner reservation to Heaven.
I have seen it used to justify NOT perservering in doing God's will.

5. I believe I said at the beginning of my post that I was drawing on my personal experiences in falling away, in CHOOSING not to continue following God.

6. So, if a person as not accepted Christ, then it is a sin for them to toss some change to a homeless man on the street, or work to pay bills out of their love for their family?

7. No, we can't make that choice without the Spirit's presence.
But it is still possible for us to ignore the Spirit's pushing, and do our own thing.

Just for the heck of it, I've included a diagram from the theology professor who taught me those questions, taken from a hand-drawn version:

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/true_lover04/Crutcherdiagram2.jpg

9Marksfan
Jun 11th 2008, 09:58 PM
1. My view is that the Bible is a great source of knowledge of the inner workings of ancient Hebrew and later Christian culture, a great source of knowledge of what has been handed down to us by our spiritual forefathers, and ONE method by which God CAN speak to us, if He chooses.

So you don't accept that it's the infallible, inerrant, authoritative, FINAL word of God?

mercychild101
Jun 11th 2008, 09:59 PM
:eek:


Wrong - we are dead in trespasses and sins and WILL not obey God - and therefore we CANNOT please Him - faith is needed (Heb 11:6).

Actually we were dead in trespasses and sins (past tense) Ephesians 2.1-6

mercychild101
Jun 11th 2008, 10:09 PM
2. I do not question the authority of Scripture, but if we do not ask those questions, it is far too easy for anyone to pick out any verse of the Bible and use it to justify his/her actions or beliefs, regardless of how irrational or violent or contrary to Christ's message they might be.

That is why we need to take all of scripture into account. instead of picking the verses we like and ignoring the rest.


3. "Nothing can separate us from the love of God."

4. I have seen it used, essentially, as a dinner reservation to Heaven.
I have seen it used to justify NOT perservering in doing God's will.

just because some people choose to use that scripture in the wrong way does not lessen the truth of it.

Buzzword
Jun 11th 2008, 10:11 PM
So you don't accept that it's the infallible, inerrant, authoritative, FINAL word of God?

In a word, No.

Nothing written or cropped by the hand of man is "infallible."
Remember, the Bible we read today is the result of centuries of church people deciding what should and shouldn't be in the canon.

Read the Apocrypha for some examples.


How do you define "inerrant"?
The Psalmist said "blessed is he who takes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."
Should I take that as my life verse and go tossing babies off cliffs?

Authoritative?
I believe it is a book written by a series of authors who were in many cases inspired by the Holy Spirit, but just compare the accounts of the SAME EVENTS in 1 and 2 Chronicles and 1 and 2 Kings.
Totally different viewpoints, totally different versions of events yet attempting to record the same period in Israel's history.

Should we treat both writers as the "authority" for the events they wrote about?


And if the Bible is the FINAL word of God?
Then God is not living.
If the Bible is the final word, God resides in a book, and is not omnipresent, nor can He have a personal relationship with any of us.
If the Bible is the final word, we are all guilty of idol worship.
If the Bible is the final word, the book and not the Inspirer is our god.


Having said that, and lit a fire under the chairs of many of the members here, I maintain that God can and has spoken through the Bible to change many people's lives.

But treating the Bible as if it is the ONLY way God can speak is like giving the credit for the carving of a statue to the hammer and chisel, and not the Artist who used them.

mercychild101
Jun 11th 2008, 10:26 PM
question? if you pick up a pen and start to write with it, is it the pen doing the writing or is it you? and if there are mistakes made is it the pen who made them or the one in control of the pen?

Buzzword
Jun 11th 2008, 10:37 PM
question? if you pick up a pen and start to write with it, is it the pen doing the writing or is it you? and if there are mistakes made is it the pen who made them or the one in control of the pen?

Obviously, the fault would be mine in that situation.

However, using that analogy, I might choose to write in pencil, or sharpie, or crayon.

Does that lessen the reality of my writing?
No.

I'm merely choosing different tools, either at my whim, or to fulfill some particular purpose.

God is the same way.
Using the analogy, we can read His writing in pen, but how much do we miss if we say "I'll only read what is written in PEN!" ?

9Marksfan
Jun 11th 2008, 10:39 PM
Actually we were dead in trespasses and sins (past tense) Ephesians 2.1-6

Agreed - but I was speaking of the universal human condition to show that we cannot come to Christ unless we are FIRST made alive in Christ - agreed?

mercychild101
Jun 11th 2008, 10:52 PM
Obviously, the fault would be mine in that situation.

However, using that analogy, I might choose to write in pencil, or sharpie, or crayon.

Does that lessen the reality of my writing?
No.

I'm merely choosing different tools, either at my whim, or to fulfill some particular purpose.

God is the same way.
Using the analogy, we can read His writing in pen, but how much do we miss if we say "I'll only read what is written in PEN!" ?

wasn't it Jesus who said that scripture can not be broken, and that his word would remain forever. that strongly suggest to me at least that i can count on the validity of his word. but if you choose not to. that is your choice. only God can convict you of the truth of his word not me.

mercychild101
Jun 11th 2008, 10:54 PM
Agreed - but I was speaking of the universal human condition to show that we cannot come to Christ unless we are FIRST made alive in Christ - agreed?

agreed one hundred percent. after we are made alive with Christ. the dead in treaspasses is past tense.

Buzzword
Jun 11th 2008, 11:11 PM
wasn't it Jesus who said that scripture can not be broken, and that his word would remain forever. that strongly suggest to me at least that i can count on the validity of his word. but if you choose not to. that is your choice. only God can convict you of the truth of his word not me.

The problem for me is this:
Jesus did not say "Heaven and Earth will pass away, but what is considered the Bible canon 2,000 years from now will never pass away."

He said "Heaven and Earth will pass away, but my WORDS will never pass away." (Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33)
He used the plural, i.e. what He Himself personally said.

When did He say that "scipture" cannot be broken?
More to the point, what do you mean by "broken"?

Also, I do not in any way doubt the validity of His WORDS.
I doubt that a book compiled by men WITHOUT the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is somehow better than any other tool God uses to speak.

It's like saying that because God has spoken through Billy Graham, we should all listen to Billy Graham and NO ONE ELSE.

9Marksfan
Jun 11th 2008, 11:16 PM
I doubt that a book compiled by men WITHOUT the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is somehow better than any other tool God uses to speak

Are you speaking of the Bible here? If so, which of its authors were WITHOUT the Holy Spirit?

Buzzword
Jun 11th 2008, 11:17 PM
Are you speaking of the Bible here? If so, which of its authors were WITHOUT the Holy Spirit?

Notice the word COMPILED.

I'm speaking of the canoners, not the authors.

In the past 2,000 years, men have basically picked through what was called "the scriptures," and decided arbitrarily what is and is not "the Word."

9Marksfan
Jun 11th 2008, 11:18 PM
Notice the word COMPILED.

I'm speaking of the canoners, not the authors.

So you're saying that we just can't know whether the canon of Scripture is complete yet?

Buzzword
Jun 11th 2008, 11:21 PM
So you're saying that we just can't know whether the canon of Scripture is complete yet?

I'm saying that, due to the fact that men HAVE cut out portions seemingly without cause, to me "the Word" is not necessarily what Jesus was talking about when He said "my words will never pass away."

alethos
Jun 11th 2008, 11:25 PM
Perhaps. Does your Bible have this?:



Here Jesus clearly says that those who Truly Believe on Him now possess eternal life. Eternal, of course, means forever. Not just until the next time you sin. Or the next time you miss church services. Or anything else for that matter.

Understanding how God's Grace Works for us is tantamount to understanding how it also Works for others.

So does your one verse negate the 4 verses I posted which mention "falling away?"

the word 'believe" is a verb.

John 20:31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing (continious tense) ye may have life in his name.

“In the New Testament, when belief is said to lead to eternal life, as is the case here the tense expressing continuous action is always used while the tense expressing a single action is never used. The stress is thus placed on a continuous faith rather than on an isolated moment of faith. Never in these passages expressing belief in eternal life is one’s eternal security said to be guaranteed by a single, isolated act of faith.”

"exhorting them to continue in the faith," (Acts 14:22)
"If ye continue in the faith" (Col 1:23)

Only those who continue to believe will ultimately end up with eternal life.

.

mercychild101
Jun 11th 2008, 11:26 PM
i just wanted to say that this thread was about eternal security vs. osas not whether or not we can believe the cannon of scriptures as being accurate.

Buzzword
Jun 11th 2008, 11:34 PM
i just wanted to say that this thread was about eternal security vs. osas not whether or not we can believe the cannon of scriptures as being accurate.

Blame it on 9Marksfan.

I gave my position on the OSAS issue, he attacked it...and so to the subsequent discussion.

Brother Mark
Jun 11th 2008, 11:38 PM
I'm saying that, due to the fact that men HAVE cut out portions seemingly without cause, to me "the Word" is not necessarily what Jesus was talking about when He said "my words will never pass away."

What part of the bible don't you like?

DeadtoSin
Jun 11th 2008, 11:48 PM
I'm saying that, due to the fact that men HAVE cut out portions seemingly without cause, to me "the Word" is not necessarily what Jesus was talking about when He said "my words will never pass away."

Which part of the Bible was cut out? The books that are not considered canonical were not unfairly chosen to be cut. If books were considered to have been written after a certain period of time after Christ's ressurection, were not considered reliable, or did not mesh with other parts of God's word then they were cut when deciding the Biblical canon.

They were just making a decision at the time to officially list the books of the Bible that were considered to be God's word. I believe that they saw without this canon, some incorrect/contrived pieces might eventually make their way into the canon if they did not go ahead and do it at that point in time.

That is my own humble opinion on non-canonical works though.

9Marksfan
Jun 11th 2008, 11:49 PM
I'm saying that, due to the fact that men HAVE cut out portions seemingly without cause, to me "the Word" is not necessarily what Jesus was talking about when He said "my words will never pass away."

Define "seemingly without cause".

9Marksfan
Jun 11th 2008, 11:52 PM
Blame it on 9Marksfan.

I gave my position on the OSAS issue, he attacked it...and so to the subsequent discussion.

Sorry, but comment had to be made - maybe I should start a separate thread - but the authority of Scripture affects EVERYTHING we discuss here.....

Buzzword
Jun 12th 2008, 01:03 AM
Define "seemingly without cause".

I used that phrase because I'm not an expert in whatever process was used to decide what is and isn't "God's word".

I've read parts of the Gospel of Thomas and selections from the Apocrypha, and it seems like whomever picked the canon books was trying to create a pre-planned image of Jesus by omitting any writings that didn't fit it.

And yes, it probably should be in a separate thread, so people are still free to discuss OSAS here...too bad the new thread (if there is one) will probably be moved to the Controversial forum quickly, and that'll be the end of my contributions to the discussion, until Friday.

Athanasius
Jun 12th 2008, 02:55 AM
You get the truth question wrong, and you're aberrant in everything else.


In a word, No.

Nothing written or cropped by the hand of man is "infallible."
Remember, the Bible we read today is the result of centuries of church people deciding what should and shouldn't be in the canon.

Read the Apocrypha for some examples.

I'm sorry... But too many people leave the most important person out of their considerations: God. No doubt I believe in the plenary verbal inspiration of the Word; God allowed those who authored the Bible to write in their own voice, but they still said what God desired to be said.

Behind the writing, behind the cropping, behind the hand of man we have... God, the Holy Spirit--revelation, inspiration. I find it appalling to imply that God cannot rise above the fallibility of men and inspire a book which is itself infallible. Whether that be through writing or through compiling, God was behind the effort, man being His instrument.



How do you define "inerrant"?
The Psalmist said "blessed is he who takes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."
Should I take that as my life verse and go tossing babies off cliffs?

Even if we assume you're interpretation of Psalm 137:9 is correct, this would still not negate any claim to inerrancy. It may be disturbing to read, but disturbing does not mean errant.

However...

Psalm 137:9
1By the rivers of Babylon,
There we sat down and wept,
When we remembered Zion.
2Upon the willows in the midst of it
We hung our harps.
3For there our captors demanded of us songs,
And our tormentors mirth, saying,
"Sing us one of the songs of Zion."
4How can we sing the LORD'S song
In a foreign land?
5If I forget you, O Jerusalem,
May my right hand forget her skill.
6May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
If I do not remember you,
If I do not exalt Jerusalem
Above my chief joy.
7Remember, O LORD, against the sons of Edom
The day of Jerusalem,
Who said, "Raze it, raze it
To its very foundation."
8O daughter of Babylon, you devastated one,
How blessed will be the one who repays you
With the recompense with which you have paid us.
9How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones
Against the rock.

I highly doubt the Psalmist is commanding us to 'dash' our babies against the 'rock'.



Authoritative?
I believe it is a book written by a series of authors who were in many cases inspired by the Holy Spirit, but just compare the accounts of the SAME EVENTS in 1 and 2 Chronicles and 1 and 2 Kings.
Totally different viewpoints, totally different versions of events yet attempting to record the same period in Israel's history.

Should we treat both writers as the "authority" for the events they wrote about?

Well.. 2 Timothy 3:16-17
16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

It says all scripture. It's the difference between saying the Bible is the Word of God and the Bible contains the Word of God (the former being correct, the latter allowing room for material that isn't the Word of God). We cannot move around this biblical truth; it leaves us with two choices: All of scripture is God breathed, or none of it is.

As for your point concerning 1 and 2 Chronicles and 1 and 2 Kings, you'll have to be much more specific. From where I'm looking... I can see a few difficulties, but I don't see contradictory points of view.



And if the Bible is the FINAL word of God?
Then God is not living.
If the Bible is the final word, God resides in a book, and is not omnipresent, nor can He have a personal relationship with any of us.
If the Bible is the final word, we are all guilty of idol worship.
If the Bible is the final word, the book and not the Inspirer is our god.

I honestly don't know what to say. This whole line of reasoning is just completely off. I really don't know how else to say it.



Having said that, and lit a fire under the chairs of many of the members here, I maintain that God can and has spoken through the Bible to change many people's lives.

That's not good enough.



But treating the Bible as if it is the ONLY way God can speak is like giving the credit for the carving of a statue to the hammer and chisel, and not the Artist who used them.

No one is saying the Bible is the only way God speaks. But we are saying that the Bible is authoritative, it is inerrant, it is infallible, it is [U]final.


The problem for me is this:
Jesus did not say "Heaven and Earth will pass away, but what is considered the Bible canon 2,000 years from now will never pass away."

He said "Heaven and Earth will pass away, but my WORDS will never pass away." (Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33)
He used the plural, i.e. what He Himself personally said.

The Bible supports the view that Jesus is God. Ergo, Jesus' 'WORDS' would entail the entire Bible.

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

John 10:30
I and the Father are one."

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God...

Jesus' words... Are the entire Bible.



Also, I do not in any way doubt the validity of His WORDS.
I doubt that a book compiled by men WITHOUT the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is somehow better than any other tool God uses to speak.

Why do you think the Holy Spirit wasn't guiding them?:hmm:
There was no 'arbitrary' picking going on, no, nothing of the sort. Even where the Apocrypha is concerned, there is a reason it isn't considered canon outside of the Catholic world--it contradicts scripture on numerous theologically important points.

Same goes for the Gnostic Gospels and any other Jewish literature: they're not in the Bible for a very good reason. As they say in Acts 15:28, "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us..." No one was romping around without the consultation of God. But if (and when) they were, things didn't turn out so hot".

IBWatching
Jun 12th 2008, 06:09 PM
So does your one verse negate the 4 verses I posted which mention "falling away?"...

You tell me. They were Jesus own Words. If he didn't mean what he plainly said, then what did He mean? As far as "believe" goes, even the faith which we have comes from God Himself. We don't "produce" it (Eph 2:8,9).

Of the 4 passages you quoted in your post earlier, two clearly indicated that the people "falling away" were not Believers. One even talked about an "evil" heart. You can't work for your Salvation. Only God can do the Work, via regeneration. God is not an indian giver. He's not a liar. He doesn't make promises He doesn't keep. If your continued sinning would make God "unsave" you, then He would never Save you in the first place. And you can't "unmerit" what you never merited in the first place.

We stand by God's Grace. Not our own.

mercychild101
Jun 12th 2008, 07:21 PM
i think this toppic of osas/loosing ones faith goes hand in hand with faith/works salvation.

what your looking at is not a contradiction it is a paradox. only God can see into a persons heart to know if they really, trully are trusting in him. we can only look on the outside.

you may see someone who does not apear to be living a Christian life and yet in his heart he is fully trusting in God to turn his life around. on the other hand you may see someone who seems to be living a very Godly life and yet his/her heart is evil and unbelieving. since you can not see into that persons heart you can only judge by what you see.

the question is. are you relying on your works? or are you relying on Jesus by trusting in him?

9Marksfan
Jun 13th 2008, 11:54 AM
i think this toppic of osas/loosing ones faith goes hand in hand with faith/works salvation.

I agree.


what your looking at is not a contradiction it is a paradox. only God can see into a persons heart to know if they really, trully are trusting in him. we can only look on the outside.

True, but it's also true that by their FRUITS you will KNOW them.


you may see someone who does not apear to be living a Christian life and yet in his heart he is fully trusting in God to turn his life around.

How so? A good tree does NOT produce bad fruit. If he is TRULY trusting in the LORD, then there MUST be at least SOME outward change as the fruit/evidence of it.


on the other hand you may see someone who seems to be living a very Godly life and yet his/her heart is evil and unbelieving.

Yes, this is all too common.

[qiuote]since you can not see into that persons heart you can only judge by what you see.

the question is. are you relying on your works? or are you relying on Jesus by trusting in him?[/quote]

Amen!

mercychild101
Jun 14th 2008, 04:27 PM
How so? A good tree does NOT produce bad fruit. If he is TRULY trusting in the LORD, then there MUST be at least SOME outward change as the fruit/evidence of it.

you know i once had an apple tree that looked completely dead. but every summer it would produce the most delicious apples. hence the reason we didn't cut it down. also sometimes it can take a while for the fruit of some trees to finally start producing. The point is that we are not the ones to decide or to say who is or who isn't.

i'm not disagreeing with you on your point. i come from a long line of professing Christians who do not seem to be producing any fruit. but there is hope. my dad after years of professing faith is finally starting to produce some fruit.

Buzzword
Jun 14th 2008, 04:34 PM
you know i once had an apple tree that looked completely dead. but every summer it would produce the most delicious apples. hence the reason we didn't cut it down. also sometimes it can take a while for the fruit of some trees to finally start producing. The point is that we are not the ones to decide or to say who is or who isn't.

i'm not disagreeing with you on your point. i come from a long line of professing Christians who do not seem to be producing any fruit. but there is hope. my dad after years of professing faith is finally starting to produce some fruit.

There is also the issue of what fruit LOOKS LIKE.

If we will know them by their fruit, what kind of fruit are we looking for?

It seems like too many people assume that consistent church attendance, regular tithing, organizing bake sales, etc. are the ONLY kind of fruit of the spirit...when those described in Galatians mostly start INTERNALLY, and can move outward in a million different ways.

mercychild101
Jun 14th 2008, 04:48 PM
osas/falling away. paradox or contradiction? in a paradox both sides are equally true and in order to understand a paradox you have to keep both sides in complete view. here is a very clear example of a paradox in the bible.

Proverbs 26. 4,5
4. Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself.
5. Answer a fool according to his folly or he will be wise in his own eyes.

if you stick to one side or the other then you will not have the whole picture. it's like the strings on a quitar if you have the right tention on both ends it sounds great but if the tention is wrong it can sound horible.

try looking at both sides of this issue taking all scriptures into account and ask God to show you the truth and for him to reviel how both sides can be equally true. don't just assume that your view is the right one just because you have a few scriptures to back it up.

Buzzword
Jun 14th 2008, 04:50 PM
try looking at both sides of this issue taking all scriptures into account and ask God to show you the truth and for him to reviel how both sides can be equally true. don't just assume that your view is the right one just because you have a few scriptures to back it up.

This should be the practice for ANYTHING that can divide us as Christians.

mercychild101
Jun 14th 2008, 04:52 PM
There is also the issue of what fruit LOOKS LIKE.

If we will know them by their fruit, what kind of fruit are we looking for?

It seems like too many people assume that consistent church attendance, regular tithing, organizing bake sales, etc. are the ONLY kind of fruit of the spirit...when those described in Galatians mostly start INTERNALLY, and can move outward in a million different ways.

if you want to know the fruits that i'm talking about look up the scripture that speaks of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

Buzzword
Jun 14th 2008, 04:54 PM
if you want to know the fruits that i'm talking about look up the scripture that speaks of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

I mentioned that, didn't I?

Galatians 5:22-23
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

Like I said, too often we as Christians try to judge from the outside if any of the above are showing...but all of them start internally, and not all of them are going to outwardly manifest in the ways we're used to.

Athanasius
Jun 15th 2008, 03:10 AM
I mentioned that, didn't I?

Galatians 5:22-23
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

Like I said, too often we as Christians try to judge from the outside if any of the above are showing...but all of them start internally, and not all of them are going to outwardly manifest in the ways we're used to.

Though they will outwardly manifest.

Buzzword
Jun 15th 2008, 03:39 AM
Though they will outwardly manifest.

Yes............................................... .........

Athanasius
Jun 15th 2008, 04:27 AM
Yes............................................... .........

Maybe .

mailmandan
May 29th 2011, 11:53 AM
Hmmmmmmmm! You must have a different Bible than I have.

Luke 8:13 And those on the rock are they who, when they have heard, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

1 Tim 4:1 But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith

2 Th 2:3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God:

.

Those on the rock (Luke 8:13) are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. Their belief was not the right kind of belief from the start. Not just any quality of faith is acceptable to God. Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually saved? First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation. The terms descriptive of him indicate his lack of salvation. He is "shallow," and "rootless," and without "patience" (perseverence). His "believing" is, therefore, "shallow." His "believing" is not "rooted," in truth, or in Christ. His "shallowness" is exhibited in the words describing him and his faith, such as "for a while believe." The things he is said to lack indicate he is not saved.

In 1 Timothy 4:1, those who fall prey to the false teachers end up departing from the Christian faith. How do you know that these are not professing or nominal (in name only) Christians who associate with those who truly believe the gospel, but defect after being deceived by false doctrine, thus revealing their true nature as unconverted? John speaks of such people in 1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. Did they fall away? Were they saved?

The same applies to 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I find it interesting that the term "fall away" was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. This was said to be a "falling away". (Matthew 26:31-35) Obviously, this is not a loss of salvation. For the true believer it may involve a temporary period of backsliding. Apostasy should not be confused with backsliding. This falling away in Matthew 26:31-35 is only temporary. Apostasy however, speaks of a falling away from the Christian faith. This is done by those who very much look like they are genuine saved believers. They may have known everything that is needed to be saved; they may have felt the conviction and drawing of the Holy Spirit, maybe even seen other signs that enable them to make a genuine decision. They may even go along with Christian teaching for a while... but they become apostates... prodigal pigs who turn away from it all, deny the truth and go back to the mud.

In the case of these Hebrews in Hebrews 3:12, their evil hearts manifested in UNBELIEF which resulted in falling away from the living God. In Hebrews 4, notice that verses 2-3 make a distinction between "us" who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and "them" who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

shepherdsword
May 29th 2011, 01:02 PM
osas/falling away. paradox or contradiction? in a paradox both sides are equally true and in order to understand a paradox you have to keep both sides in complete view. here is a very clear example of a paradox in the bible.

Proverbs 26. 4,5
4. Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself.
5. Answer a fool according to his folly or he will be wise in his own eyes.

if you stick to one side or the other then you will not have the whole picture. it's like the strings on a quitar if you have the right tention on both ends it sounds great but if the tention is wrong it can sound horible.

try looking at both sides of this issue taking all scriptures into account and ask God to show you the truth and for him to reviel how both sides can be equally true. don't just assume that your view is the right one just because you have a few scriptures to back it up.

I use this same example all the time.It may seem to resort to situational ethics but I believe any absolute must be qualified with sufficient data.
A good example of this is "Is it wrong to cut a person open?" There is insufficient data for a response a proper response. Now if I had qualified the question with "is it wrong to cut a person open and watch him die?" The answer would be yes. If it was qualified with "Is it wrong to cut a person open to remove a ruptured appendix?" the answer would be no.

Michael Snow
May 31st 2011, 06:35 AM
As a believer in the TULIP principles, of course I am OSAS....


Yuke

The doctrine of Calvin is the classic Biblical doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. It is not the same as the modern OSAS. See Calvin quotes below:

The most thorough Biblical study that I have read on this subject is Kept By the Power of God, by noted NT scholar, I. Howard Marshall. It is out of print but you should be able to get it through a library or search used books online.

OSAS discussions always make this mistake from the beginning: they assume that there are only two positions.

But the biblical doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is not the same as the modern OSAS positon. There are really three positions regarding this topic.

This from Love, Prayer and Forgiveness: When Basics Become Heresies:[see amazon]

...One pet theology that re-enforces the lack of urgency
stems from good intentions. But while holding onto some
truths found in the New Testament, it fails to hold onto other
essentials. The holy conjunction is lost. And, thus, it distorts
an historic doctrine—the perseverance of the saints.
Its good intention lies in giving assurance to those who
struggle with their sense of being saved. Today, many seasoned
Christians will tell those who make a profession of
faith (whether by a prayer or by going forward at a church
or crusade) that they have eternal security. A popular slogan
rings out: “Once saved, always saved.”
And other Christians will assure those who have been
baptized and confirmed that they are heaven bound no matter
what may follow. Though many of these converts might
never live by faith, this assurance will again be affirmed at
their funerals.
But a new idea enters here. By leaving out New
Testament essentials, these teachings depart from the historic
Christian faith. This new idea leaves behind the holy
conjunction; it fails to hold essentials together. Faith and
obedience are sundered; forgiveness and repentance divided.
While some differences arise among great saints of the
past, like Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Wesley, they
all agreed that we are saved by faith alone through God’s
unmerited grace. On this point, Wesley said of Calvin, “I do
not differ from him an hair’s breadth.”4
So, too, the seasoned Christians mentioned above affirm
this. But where is the difference?
Martin Luther observed that “the world and the masses
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are and always will be unchristian, although they are all baptized
and nominally Christians. Christians, however, are few
and far between . . .”5
Luther pointed to “the divine promise which says: ‘He
that believeth and is baptized shall be saved’ [Mark 16:16].”6
(Note the holy conjunction.) But he also warned, “Unless
faith is present or comes to life in baptism, the ceremony is
of no avail; indeed it is a stumbling-block not only at the
moment we receive baptism but for all our life thereafter.”7
John Calvin affirmed, “Only if we walk in the beauty of
God’s law do we become sure of our adoption as children of
the Father.”8 (What a contrast that is with the assurances
given by those who march under another banner.)
Furthermore, he wrote:
The apostle denies that anyone actually knows
Christ who has not learned to put off the old man,
corrupt with deceitful lusts, and to put on Christ.
External knowledge of Christ is found to be
only a false and dangerous make-believe, however
eloquently and freely lip servants may talk about
the gospel.
The gospel is not a doctrine of the tongue, but
of life.9
The key point here is succinctly summed up by J. I.
Packer: “Scripture holds out no hope of salvation for any
who, whatever their profession of faith, do not seek to turn
from sin to righteousness (1 Cor. 6:9-11; Rev. 21:8).”10
We need to read and hear Jesus’ parable of the sower.
(Christians ought to read and know God’s word.) Here,
Jesus speaks of the different types of soil upon which the
seed of the gospel falls. The seed falls on the footpath, on
shallow, rocky soil, on ground infested with thorns, and on
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good ground (Mat. 13). The hard footpath will not even
grow a plant, but on the shallow, stony soil, the plants spring
up immediately, but because of the shallowness, they have
no deep root and wither away in the sun.
Jesus tells us, “He who received the seed on the stony
places, this is he who hears the word and immediately
receives it with joy, [he may readily run forward at an altar
call] yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a
while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of
the word, immediately he stumbles “ (Mat. 13:20-21).
About the ground with thorns, Jesus says, “He who
received the seed among the thorns is he who hears the
word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of
riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful” (Mat
13:22). The thorns choke out life. (We remember what Jesus
said about dead branches on the vine: they are cut off and
gathered to be burned.)
Here, confusion rushes in when those in this modern,
once-saved-always-saved camp assure these sad cases of
people that they have eternal security. (Just as the evangelical
churches of Joy and Mary did for them.)
Right here lies the critical point of difference between
the historic doctrine of the perseverance of the saints and
this modern notion, which reigns under the banner of “once
saved, always saved.” Both will agree that God’s elect cannot
be lost; but those with this new notion will assure someone,
anyone, who makes an initial profession of faith that
they have eternal security. And their positive assessment
regarding the salvation of these hearers will never change,
not even when the roots shrivel and the thorns choke the life
out. The initial response (profession) rather than the life of
endurance (perseverance) stands as their criteria. (As a
result, they often fail in exhortation, and they often remain
silent, except to assure Christians like Joy and Mary that
they are heaven bound.)
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But Jesus said, “He who endures to the end will be
saved” (Mat. 10:22).
Calvin, one unflinching champion of the perseverance of
the saints, clearly taught this. Expositing this parable of the
sower, he speaks of the “temporary faith” of the one who
receives the word with joy:
They lack a living feeling (affectus) to confirm
them in steadfastness. . . . For unless the Word
penetrates the whole heart and puts down deep
roots there will be no steady flow of moisture to
make faith persevere. . . . let us realize that nothing
is done until faith has gained a firm strength. . . .
these are called ‘temporary’, not only because they
fall away in temptation after being professed disciples
of Christ for a time, but also because they
themselves think that they have a true faith. . . . But
we must know that they are not truly born again of
incorruptible seed, which does not fade away, as
Peter says (1 Pet. 1.4).11
As F. F. Bruce has pointed out, “The perseverance of the
saints is a biblical doctrine, but it is not a doctrine designed
to lull the indifferent into a sense of false security; it means
that perseverance is an essential token of sanctity.”12
That means that if you do not have the essential evidence,
the perseverance, then you do not have the salvation
either. And no faithful servant would affirm to those who are
committing high-handed sin (whether it be pursuing homosexual
unions or divorcing a spouse for unbiblical grounds)
that they have eternal security.
This does not mean that we, as Christians, never stumble.
J. I. Packer writes, “Sometimes the regenerate backslide
and fall into gross sin. But in this they act out of character,
do violence to their own new nature, and make themselves
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deeply miserable so that eventually they seek and find
restoration to righteousness. In retrospect, their lapse seems
to them to have been madness.”13
But we may never know which ones will return and which
ones will continue toward destruction. (Only God knows.)
Only perseverance at the end of the course will reveal it. So,
we give warning and exhortation to return as God commands
us. We listen to his word: “Exhort one another daily . . . lest
any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin”
(Heb. 3:13). We do not banter around vain slogans, but center
our gaze on God’s holy word. There he gives us assurance
when our hearts cry out, “Abba, Father.”

Amos_with_goats
May 31st 2011, 04:22 PM
This OP in this old thread is worth a read. As many times as this topic has been hashed, rehashed, diced, chopped, and pureed... this is a pretty good post.


I am a new member but not so new a Christian. Life committment to Jesus Christ by faith since 1972 & have never had the slightest desire to return to the old man.
I know who my God & Savior is. The Creator, Owner & Master of the Universe, my Boss of life. I am eternally secure in the power of His resurrection. In my few days here I have seen several comments about believing or not believing "once saved always saved". One thing I have not seen addressed is "Eternal Security." I would like to offer my thoughts on the difference in the two.

I am a VERY practical Christian & not much of a theologian at all.
I find the every day person that speaks of OSAS defines it something like this: you can be saved & then do anything, or live any way & still be saved. Then they prove that by David. He was guilty of adultry, husband murder, & the murder of many men fighting w/ Uriah when he was killed.
This definition is totally foreign to the Scripture & no where to be found anywhere therein.
I find that folks who believe the above have an easy believism salvation which is as unscriptural as their defiaition of OSAS. IT is a free gift so all you gotta do is believe. There is no real repentance nor is there any life committment in the above. Both are heresy.

Eternal Security now.
Saved is before secure.
Saved is repent, turn away from sin.
Converted = Changed. I am not that way any more.
Changed is hate the sin that ruins life & loving the Savior that changed my life. Converted is I am not that way any more.
I cant do it any more. Not because God wont let me but because it is not in me to do it any more. I can still cuss. I know the words but I cant do it because it is not in me anymore. I can gamble still. I know what hand beats what but I cant do that because it is not in me anymore to do it.
I am not that way any more.
When Jesus bought me with a price & I became His servant & no longer the servant of sin I live in Christ's Kingdom, I work in His field, & I play in His yard. I dont go the places that Satan owns any more.
In His Kingdom, field, & yard I am secure for all eternity. Jesus guards his Children better than we guard our earthly children. Satan can not rechain me & drag me away from Jesus my Savior.

Am I perfect & w/o sin. NO! But when I mess up I know it & run to my redeemer for cleansing. Does he kick me out of the Kingdom & let me back in after the cleansing. NO! When this Sheep strays my Good Shepherd comes after me w/ His Rod & Staff that comfort me w/ knowing His discipline is making me more like Him on a daily basis. I am still a Sheep.

My Savior told lost humanity how lost I was in my former state. He told me exactly when I would be saved. When I confessed w/ my mouth & believed in my heart that that God raised Him from the dead.
Since He told me I was lost, & when I was saved, if I could get lost again He would have told me that too.
Real repentance, life committment to Jesus in OBEDIENT faith saves to the uttermost. That is why I am Eternally Secure.
LT

BroRog
Jun 1st 2011, 12:32 AM
This OP in this old thread is worth a read. As many times as this topic has been hashed, rehashed, diced, chopped, and pureed... this is a pretty good post.

Wow. I started reading this from the beginning as if it was a new thread. I kept seeing people I miss and hoped they had returned. I miss them all.

Butch5
Jun 1st 2011, 01:00 AM
Wow. I started reading this from the beginning as if it was a new thread. I kept seeing people I miss and hoped they had returned. I miss them all.

I did the same thing.

gringo300
Jun 1st 2011, 01:47 AM
Let's get something straight before we go any further:

I believe that only God Himself can judge who is and isn't saved.

Now, having said that, I have a strong suspicion that many people who say, maybe even THINK, they were saved never got saved in the first place.

Even many preachers spread the message that a person can have no remorse for their sin, make no repentance, have no intention of living any differently than they did before, and simply say, "I accept this gift." and be saved.

Whether or not a person had a genuine salvation experience in the first place has to be answered before Once Saved Always Saved or not even comes into the picture. If they weren't Once Saved in the first place, Always Saved is irrelevant.

Once a person gets saved, they have the OPPORTUNITY to live a better life than before. I see people saying, "A saved person HAS to live better than they did before."

It was the sin of their pre-salvation life that should be seen as a burden. But instead many people make the opportunity into a "burden".

Jason0047
Apr 17th 2018, 05:39 PM
I agree, you do have free will and you can TRY to walk away. But in my experience, He won't let you. A truly saved individual, even if they try to renounce what they know (and I did just that once) will always feel that "pull" on their hearts. Just like my children, when they are disobeying, they KNOW better and they eventually come around. That's why His word says, "nothing can snatch you out of my hand once you are mine"

:)

The problem here is that if a believer does try to walk away by their sinning, then you have to conclude that they are saved while committing such sins. Gotquestions says that a believer who went prodigal is still saved as long as he comes back. Yes, they also teach a believer must live holy to show that their faith is true. Yet, they contradict themselves by saying that a prodigal believer who is in sin is also saved. This is a license to sin!!!