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ARCHER42
May 26th 2008, 09:16 PM
Just wanted to get some input into what you thought about the 'danger' of Christian's running after and following 'signs and wonders'... is there a danger? What did Jesus the Christ teach about following after signs and wonders... Today as you see this gathering conference and that gathering conference.. miracles here .. miracles there... are there just people going to those to 'see' those miracles? are they there to just get a 'rush' from the experience? I'd like to hear some input from some people... Lets try to keep this civil... Please. and thank you beforehand...

Just a side note: I personally believe that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is a supernatural God and that He still does heal and do miracles today. He has not changed for He does not change and He is the same today yesterday and forever. The greatest miracle is the New Birth.. when God does His work in the heart of an unbeliever.. bringing them to repentance thru the Revelation of His Goodness in their lives.. even though it was 'unmerited' and they did not deserve it.

Jollyrogers
May 26th 2008, 09:52 PM
I see a danger in it when it distracts from the message. You have to always ask if it is glorifying god or not. Alot of them I see on TV do not. Signs by themselves are nothing unless they point the way and glorify the saviour. Remember that the magitians in Pharoas court could also turn their staffs into Snakes. Satan can and does try to copy the signs of God. This is why I think Jesus warns us about only looking for signs, less we be decieved.

divaD
May 26th 2008, 10:37 PM
Just wanted to get some input into what you thought about the 'danger' of Christian's running after and following 'signs and wonders'... is there a danger? What did Jesus the Christ teach about following after signs and wonders... Today as you see this gathering conference and that gathering conference.. miracles here .. miracles there... are there just people going to those to 'see' those miracles? are they there to just get a 'rush' from the experience? I'd like to hear some input from some people... Lets try to keep this civil... Please. and thank you beforehand...

Just a side note: I personally believe that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is a supernatural God and that He still does heal and do miracles today. He has not changed for He does not change and He is the same today yesterday and forever. The greatest miracle is the New Birth.. when God does His work in the heart of an unbeliever.. bringing them to repentance thru the Revelation of His Goodness in their lives.. even though it was 'unmerited' and they did not deserve it.



I guess I'm confused. What signs and wonders are you talking about? I'm 50, and I've never seen any signs and wonders. I was charismatic for awhile, some 10-15 yrs ago, still didn't see any signs and wonders. Can you clarify as to which signs and wonders you're referring and where they can be found?

ARCHER42
May 26th 2008, 11:06 PM
I guess I'm confused. What signs and wonders are you talking about? I'm 50, and I've never seen any signs and wonders. I was charismatic for awhile, some 10-15 yrs ago, still didn't see any signs and wonders. Can you clarify as to which signs and wonders you're referring and where they can be found?


Diva,
I'm talking about the coming of the lawless one.. the man of sin.. and the power and signs and lying wonders that accompany that . It is declared in Scripture that this will be on the increase and will be very evident during the tribulation and great tribulation. It goes right along with the Apostacy or falling away....Jesus Himself said that the deception would be so strong that even the 'elect' could be decieved.

You can turn on any Christian telvision station today and they're there... They even have 'signs' and 'wonder's conferences.... My question was what are the dangers of following these and making them your 'worship'..... The Bible declares that the Pharisees... ALWAYS required a Sign.. they Tempted Jesus many times to 'give them a sign to prove He was from God'.....

There are 'genuine' miracles out there those that recieve them will testify to the fact that they did happen.. and they will 'glorify' Jesus the Christ and He will get the glory and praise..

My first question stands....

more excellent way
May 26th 2008, 11:17 PM
...Christ and Him crucified.

In this world, there is alot of information/knowledge that can be known (in Christianity also).

We can choose to become 'masters of intellect'/scholars of ancient cultures and their worship habits, scriptures, and ancient names of God (Yashua, Jehovah, etc.), but these are all distractions from the TRUTH and SPIRIT of a true devotion (scholars glorify themselves, not Jesus), but the spirit had not yet been given (John 7:39).

Each person can make the choice to become zealous/excited about 'miracles', signs and wonders (the Jews and the Greeks did this, 1 Corinthians 1:22, Matthew 12:39), but if we want to be a TRUE worshipper (John 4:23) and know God as "ABBA FATHER" (DEAR Father, Romans 815, Galatians 4:6) and be a"FRIEND of God", James 2:23), we should choose to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2).

Many Christians choose the distractions (from TRUTH) of signs, wonders, "wisdom"/knowledge, miracles, etc. and do not have a passion for [objective] TRUTH ("AND SO BE SAVED", 2 Thessalonians 2:10).

We need to know "the depths of God" (1 Corinthians 2:10) and have our conscience purified (Hebrews 6:9) by learning "the sword of the spirit" (Ephesians 6:17) instead of just learn the introductory doctrine of Jesus (Hebrews 6:1), which is the "word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15, Ephesians 1:13, John 14:6) instead of continuing on with fear (1 John 4:18) and distractions from a true devotion (1 Corinthians 12:31).

Faith should borne out of LOVE ("the GREATEST", 1 Corinthians 13:13), not suspenseful distractions, ego, text, etc. TRUE Christianity is a LOVE, not a faith, neither is God a 'book'.

God constructed scripture so that the spiritual mind (Romans 12:2) will find the spiritual message, and the carnal mind will find a carnal message (as in the parables, Matthew 13:13 and 19). It is the carnal mind that seeks signs and wonders.

'sin laws' (Ephesians 2:15).
"law of liberty" (James 1:25 and 2:12).
living "water" baptism (John 7:38, Rev. 7:16, 2 Corin. 1:22, 5:5, Ephes. 1:14).

Distractions from truth cause alot of damage ("STRONG delusion").

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=guarantee&t=RSV&sf=5

All verses are from the RSV (most reliable and understandable).

ARCHER42
May 27th 2008, 12:22 AM
...Christ and Him crucified.

In this world, there is alot of information/knowledge that can be known (in Christianity also).

We can choose to become 'masters of intellect'/scholars of ancient cultures and their worship habits, scriptures, and ancient names of God (Yashua, Jehovah, etc.), but these are all distractions from the TRUTH and SPIRIT of a true devotion (scholars glorify themselves, not Jesus), but the spirit had not yet been given (John 7:39).

Each person can make the choice to become zealous/excited about 'miracles', signs and wonders (the Jews and the Greeks did this, 1 Corinthians 1:22, Matthew 12:39), but if we want to be a TRUE worshipper (John 4:23) and know God as "ABBA FATHER" (DEAR Father, Romans 815, Galatians 4:6) and be a"FRIEND of God", James 2:23), we should choose to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2).

Many Christians choose the distractions (from TRUTH) of signs, wonders, "wisdom"/knowledge, miracles, etc. and do not have a passion for [objective] TRUTH ("AND SO BE SAVED", 2 Thessalonians 2:10).

We need to know "the depths of God" (1 Corinthians 2:10) and have our conscience purified (Hebrews 6:9) by learning "the sword of the spirit" (Ephesians 6:17) instead of just learn the introductory doctrine of Jesus (Hebrews 6:1), which is the "word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15, Ephesians 1:13, John 14:6) instead of continuing on with fear (1 John 4:18) and distractions from a true devotion (1 Corinthians 12:31).

Faith should borne out of LOVE ("the GREATEST", 1 Corinthians 13:13), not suspenseful distractions, ego, text, etc. TRUE Christianity is a LOVE, not a faith, neither is God a 'book'.

God constructed scripture so that the spiritual mind (Romans 12:2) will find the spiritual message, and the carnal mind will find a carnal message (as in the parables, Matthew 13:13 and 19). It is the carnal mind that seeks signs and wonders.

'sin laws' (Ephesians 2:15).
"law of liberty" (James 1:25 and 2:12).
living "water" baptism (John 7:38, Rev. 7:16, 2 Corin. 1:22, 5:5, Ephes. 1:14).

Distractions from truth cause alot of damage ("STRONG delusion").

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=guarantee&t=RSV&sf=5

All verses are from the RSV (most reliable and understandable).
-------------------------------------------------------

Good post... thank you..... Paul was 'determined'...... to know Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

That I may know Him , and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of HIS sufferings, being made conformable unto His death...
Phillipians 3:9

"knowing' Him is very clear and should be the first priority in a Christians walk.. Jesus Himself said that at the Judgement many will stand before Him and claim all these great things they had done in His name..
Then He tells them to depart from Him... for He NEVER 'KNEW' them......

As a young Christian this was the most 'scariest' verse or the most 'reverent' verse in my Bible studies.. It wasnt until I dug into the Greek and did a word study on the word 'know'... its interesting what you find...


I also agree that there can be many distractions out there that can distract you from the Truth.. Those that appeal to the fleshly and carnal mind....

those that KNOW Him and who are abiding in Truth and Worshipping in Spirit... 'have the mind of Christ.'

-------------------------------------------------------

Let me pose this question......

Does a miracle 'constitute' Truth? or in an easier way to describe it..

does a miracle when done or performed... does the miracle in itself prove that 'its from God?'

ARCHER42
May 27th 2008, 12:26 AM
I see a danger in it when it distracts from the message. You have to always ask if it is glorifying god or not. Alot of them I see on TV do not. Signs by themselves are nothing unless they point the way and glorify the saviour. Remember that the magitians in Pharoas court could also turn their staffs into Snakes. Satan can and does try to copy the signs of God. This is why I think Jesus warns us about only looking for signs, less we be decieved.
---------------------------------------------------------

Some very good points.. thank you for your response.

Ashley274
May 27th 2008, 01:52 AM
Hey Archer :hug: You know me short on words and direct to the point...I think the danger is those who keep looking for signs are looking OUT not INWARD I tried to rep you but I am out so a board rep

Ashley274
May 27th 2008, 01:57 AM
We are told a time will come when the antichrist will come and will perform miracles and wonders....


Not sure how to quote here "Let me pose this question......

Does a miracle 'constitute' Truth? or in an easier way to describe it..

does a miracle when done or performed... does the miracle in itself prove that 'its from God?' end quote

amazzin
May 27th 2008, 02:17 AM
Just wanted to get some input into what you thought about the 'danger' of Christian's running after and following 'signs and wonders'... is there a danger? What did Jesus the Christ teach about following after signs and wonders... Today as you see this gathering conference and that gathering conference.. miracles here .. miracles there... are there just people going to those to 'see' those miracles? are they there to just get a 'rush' from the experience? I'd like to hear some input from some people... Lets try to keep this civil... Please. and thank you beforehand...

Just a side note: I personally believe that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is a supernatural God and that He still does heal and do miracles today. He has not changed for He does not change and He is the same today yesterday and forever. The greatest miracle is the New Birth.. when God does His work in the heart of an unbeliever.. bringing them to repentance thru the Revelation of His Goodness in their lives.. even though it was 'unmerited' and they did not deserve it.

Running afer signs and wonders is noting new, Even the multitudes ran after Jesus because of the signs and wonders. However, Jesus did not rebuke them but had compasin for them because tghey were shepherdless.

Likewise, we need not worry about those who run after the signs and wonders. There are those that are legitimate BUT more so should we be concerned that that too do not remain shepherdless. We need to lok at these peole not with disdame but with the heart and they eyes of compassin just like Jesus had.

1of7000
May 27th 2008, 02:19 AM
Jesus said "an evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign" Matt 12:39

Bill Engvall said "Here's your sign"


Mark 16:14 And these signs will follow them that believe...

If you are not seeing signs and wonders try looking behind you. If you are looking behind you and don't see anything you probably got some work to do.

ARCHER42
May 27th 2008, 03:27 AM
Hey Archer :hug: You know me short on words and direct to the point...I think the danger is those who keep looking for signs are looking OUT not INWARD I tried to rep you but I am out so a board rep


Good point Ashley... not only our we suppose to be looking inward and 'examing' ourselves.. but looking 'upward' towards the Heavens as we see that 'day' approaching... We wait for the Blessed Hope .... waiting and looking for the 'redemption' of our bodies.....keeping the Word of His patience...

Maranatha... even so Come Lord Jesus...

Brother Mark
May 27th 2008, 03:30 AM
Jesus said "an evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign" Matt 12:39

Jesus said that to the Pharisees. Those that came to him seeking healing were healed. Jesus even "complained" in John 6 that people were seeking him because of bread and not because of the signs and wonders.

Brother Mark
May 27th 2008, 03:30 AM
Running afer signs and wonders is noting new, Even the multitudes ran after Jesus because of the signs and wonders. However, Jesus did not rebuke them but had compasin for them because tghey were shepherdless.

Likewise, we need not worry about those who run after the signs and wonders. There are those that are legitimate BUT more so should we be concerned that that too do not remain shepherdless. We need to lok at these peole not with disdame but with the heart and they eyes of compassin just like Jesus had.

AMEN! Excellent point Brother.

ARCHER42
May 27th 2008, 03:52 AM
Running afer signs and wonders is noting new, Even the multitudes ran after Jesus because of the signs and wonders. However, Jesus did not rebuke them but had compasin for them because tghey were shepherdless.

Likewise, we need not worry about those who run after the signs and wonders. There are those that are legitimate BUT more so should we be concerned that that too do not remain shepherdless. We need to lok at these peole not with disdame but with the heart and they eyes of compassin just like Jesus had.
----------------------------------------------------------

I agree that running after signs and wonders are nothing new.. People followed Jesus when He did them.. the Pharisee's followed Him all the time 'tempting' Him to show them a sign ... proving He was God.. all the while He was doing them all over.. feeding the 5000 , raising the dead, casting out devils.. but they still persisted on 'tempting' Him.. If He would of done a sign and wonder for them.. they probably wouldn't of believed Him anyways.. why? for the hardness of their hearts....

My heart breaks for those who 'willfully' run after signs and wonders.. they get caught up in all the frenzy and hype.... instead of getting to "KNOW" Him... Knowing the One who Laid down His life.... I've been there.. running after them.. I know what its like to get drawn off the narrow path.. to Lose sight of Him and put all my sight on the signs and wonders..

I was chastised by the Lord for my actions.. It was not fun at the time.. but He did it out of Love.. If your a parent and you have a child that 'strays' from you.. or walks away from you or takes his/her eyes off of you..... you as a parent are going to do everything in your power to see that child return.. It's no different with God the Father.. or the Good Sheperd... He does what He has to do .

Pure Love holds on to something it cherishes....
When it strays.. it lovingly and gently leads it back...
Why? Because there was an enormous Price paid...


He wants YOU TO 'KNOW' HIM... Thats what He desires... Because He cherishes you...

Thanks for your comments... they have been valuable...

I'll close with some wisdom from Proverbs...

Open rebuke is better than secret love.
Proverbs 27:5

servant of Lord
May 27th 2008, 04:10 AM
wonderful insight ...yall have shared in ways that I would had never thought of..
yes, to me there are some dangers...cause our Lord told us there was.. The annoiting is very lovely. It can be addictive...when I first felt the power of God falling on me in church..I had no previous knowledge of anything of the sort..never heard of it or saw it before in my life..I ran home and called my mom..and she said, oh you must had went to a pentecostal church..I was like what ? but I know that I wanted more and more of it...IT amazed me..
but then GOd began to teach me and now though i still desire to just worship under the presense of His spirit ...and be filled and renewed ..I know that it is not all about the trembling and dancing in the spirit....yes, it is good. But there is more then that..faith in christ and him alone..
there are many false revivals going on ...many are falling for them also. they use new age jargoon mixed with word of GOd..talking about speaking to the dead and stuff..people stay away from such..

My heart's Desire
May 27th 2008, 04:41 AM
Just wanted to get some input into what you thought about the 'danger' of Christian's running after and following 'signs and wonders'... is there a danger? What did Jesus the Christ teach about following after signs and wonders... Today as you see this gathering conference and that gathering conference.. miracles here .. miracles there... are there just people going to those to 'see' those miracles? are they there to just get a 'rush' from the experience? I'd like to hear some input from some people... Lets try to keep this civil... Please. and thank you beforehand...

Just a side note: I personally believe that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is a supernatural God and that He still does heal and do miracles today. He has not changed for He does not change and He is the same today yesterday and forever. The greatest miracle is the New Birth.. when God does His work in the heart of an unbeliever.. bringing them to repentance thru the Revelation of His Goodness in their lives.. even though it was 'unmerited' and they did not deserve it.
Yes, since we are in the time of the end of which we are warned of this very thing, I do believe there is a danger. For one thing, if people feel the need to see something or feel something to keep the faith, then something is very wrong. People might not like to admit it, but I personally for myself know it's true.

I know! Because I was a Baptist and first time I saw " supposed healing" or "deliverance from demons" and enhanced worship, I felt something validated my faith, then when real, hard times come and you don't "see" or "feel" some of these things, your faith suffers or mine did. One thing I can say is once you get to that point, you learn to quit following signs and wonders, and learn to just trust God, without needing to see or feel.

talmidim
May 27th 2008, 12:20 PM
Hello All,

There is nothing more moving than to be in the presence of the Lord and to witness the manifestation of His love through the gifts of His Spirit. But there is no doubt that there are counterfeit signs that have been perpetrated on the faithful by wolves within the flock. We are supposed to seek His intervention in our lives and in the lives of those that we love. But we are not to seek after signs to prove Him over and over. Faith comes another way, does it not?

On the other hand there is another type of sign that has not been addressed here. And I don't know if this is what was meant by the OP, but I will throw it out there anyway. Genesis teaches that the lights in the heavens were given for signs. And a careful reading of scripture and historical data indicates that certain celestial signs do indeed seem to coincide with major events that have affected both Israel and the nations, especially when these signs occur on His Appointed Times. Paul even hints at this phenomenon here:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Now I don't want to start a debate about astrology or the like because that is not what I mean. But instead I want to examine what should be considered a 'sign' according to scripture. Because events on this earth can be counterfeited to appear as miracles, but the Father controls the lights of the heaven. They cannot be counterfeited, only discounted or obscured.

In His Love,
Phillip

ARCHER42
May 27th 2008, 01:13 PM
Yes, since we are in the time of the end of which we are warned of this very thing, I do believe there is a danger. For one thing, if people feel the need to see something or feel something to keep the faith, then something is very wrong. People might not like to admit it, but I personally for myself know it's true.

I know! Because I was a Baptist and first time I saw " supposed healing" or "deliverance from demons" and enhanced worship, I felt something validated my faith, then when real, hard times come and you don't "see" or "feel" some of these things, your faith suffers or mine did. One thing I can say is once you get to that point, you learn to quit following signs and wonders, and learn to just trust God, without needing to see or feel.
------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with your post 100 percent...... thanks for your comments.

ARCHER42
May 27th 2008, 01:54 PM
Many thanks to all the posters who have posted so far... your insight is very much appreciated.

Why did Jesus do miracles? Why did He heal? Cast out devils? Forgive the most wretched of sinners? Feed 5000 with a few pieces of fish and bread?

He did what He saw His Father doing.. He worked the works of Him that sent Him... Does He still do the above today? Most certainly YES..
What was His motivation for the above? His Mercy /Compassion and Demonstrating
God's Goodness... For it is His GLORY

He also did those to Demonstrate that the Kingdom of Heaven was AT HAND... and that the Kingdom of Heaven comes with POWER. It declares in the Book of Acts . that Jesus was a man 'approved' of God by these mighty acts.. which He did in the midst of those who were 'round bout Him during His earthly ministry.


As a believer an 'examination' of one's self is very healthy and you have to ask yourself...

Do I need God to do a miracle or sign and wonder in my life to 'prove' His presense? He does still do them but is that what I"m basing my 'faith' on? Does my 'belief' in Jesus Christ depend on whether or not He can perform some miracle in my life or the life of somebody round bout me. Thats a good question we must ask ourselves as believers.

Buck shot
May 27th 2008, 05:06 PM
I think as a believer an 'examination' of one's self is very healthy and you have to ask yourself...

Do I need God to do a miracle or sign and wonder in my life to 'prove' His presense? He does still do them but is that what I"m basing my 'faith' on? Does my 'belief' in Jesus Christ depend on whether or not He can perform some miracle in my life or the life of somebody round bout me. Thats a good question we must ask ourselves as believers.

:agree: Thanks, We should each examine ourselves! Do we love Him because of what He does for us or because of what He has done for us?

ARCHER42
May 27th 2008, 05:19 PM
:agree: Thanks, We should each examine ourselves! Do we love Him because of what He does for us or because of what He has done for us?


Exactly! Thank you for those encouraging words :pp:pp

My heart's Desire
May 27th 2008, 05:39 PM
I'd like to add another thought we might think about. What did the fruit in Eden appeal to? Was it not to the desire and the senses? What are we warned about in the N.T.? Is it not to the fleshly desires? As we know the flesh wars against the spirit. Eve saw the tree was good for food, it was a delight to the eyes, and was desirable to make one wise. Hope this doesn't derail but I just had a thought. The tree was made and provided by God, but with the commandment that they should not eat of it. Isn't that interesting?

The Pharisee's in Jesus day constantly wanted Jesus to PROVE He was Who He said He was by giving signs and miracles. Jesus said the only sign given would be His death, burial and resurrection.

ARCHER42
May 27th 2008, 06:12 PM
I'd like to add another thought we might think about. What did the fruit in Eden appeal to? Was it not to the desire and the senses? What are we warned about in the N.T.? Is it not to the fleshly desires? As we know the flesh wars against the spirit. Eve saw the tree was good for food, it was a delight to the eyes, and was desirable to make one wise. Hope this doesn't derail but I just had a thought. The tree was made and provided by God, but with the commandment that they should not eat of it. Isn't that interesting?

The Pharisee's in Jesus day constantly wanted Jesus to PROVE He was Who He said He was by giving signs and miracles. Jesus said the only sign given would be His death, burial and resurrection.
-------------------------------------------------------

Excellent points.. and we can also discern or ask God for wisdom on the 'source' of those 'appeals' to the senses and the flesh... Some may be suprised who is behind the 'bait'.... or as we in the hunting and the fishing community call....'the Lure'...

Thanks again for all your comments.. This has been a great thread.. May God Bless you all for your insight and May He continue to pour out His wisdom and understanding upon you all...

timmyb
May 27th 2008, 06:29 PM
I see a danger in it when it distracts from the message. You have to always ask if it is glorifying god or not. Alot of them I see on TV do not. Signs by themselves are nothing unless they point the way and glorify the saviour. Remember that the magitians in Pharoas court could also turn their staffs into Snakes. Satan can and does try to copy the signs of God. This is why I think Jesus warns us about only looking for signs, less we be decieved.

They aren't supposed to be distracting... they are the demonstration of the Kingdom. We deceive ourselves by looking for signs and wonders without obedience to the king which is what a Kingdom is anyway. Many Charismatics say that the Kingdom of God is signs and wonders but they miss the reality of obedience. It's all about the heart of a person... who are they there to serve?... James rebukes Christians who pray according to their own selfish desires... Christ is the only foundation, but we are not to forget his benefits either... It's just that many people are only in it for the benefits and their walks are sadly dependent on it and many fall away if it doesn't happen... the reality that if you aren't founded in Christ, the cracks will show... you are building a house on sand and it will crumble... Christ is the only rock... I don't need miracles for him to prove himself to me or to increase my faith, they are to make me humble in the fact that only he can do these things and that his power is real... We are warned of people who deny the power of the Gospel which is not just in salvation... but in signs and wonders... they have a form of godliness but deny it's power...

The kingdom is not just in word but in power. The kingdom of God is to be demonstrated in miracles, healings, signs and wonders. But that's not to be the focus of our goal. If we go to worshipping the manifestation of the Spirit we throw away our discernment, but if we reason away the manifestation we throw away our discernment... we need to have open, hungry, and teachable hearts to receive what the Holy Spirit desires for us to have for this generation

godsgirl
May 28th 2008, 08:56 PM
Christians shouldn't follow signs and wonders-it's the other way around-according to Jesus-signs will follow us. And, timmyb-I've never heard any charismatic say, "the Kingdom of God is signs and wonders".

timmyb
May 28th 2008, 09:46 PM
Christians shouldn't follow signs and wonders-it's the other way around-according to Jesus-signs will follow us. And, timmyb-I've never heard any charismatic say, "the Kingdom of God is signs and wonders".

me neither, but the body language of the charismatic church is that... believe me I am one and I have seen it

Roelof
May 29th 2008, 10:31 AM
You must test the spirits:

merjorg
May 29th 2008, 08:29 PM
me neither, but the body language of the charismatic church is that... believe me I am one and I have seen it

Their body language implies that they believe the kingdom is more about signs and wonders than it is about obedience? I'm a charismatic...and I "think" I know what you mean when you mention their "body language", but it hasn't been my experience that this body language is necessarily correlated to their thoughts on obedience (or their actual obedience). I have met many charismatics who do the body language thing, but who would tell you that obedience is..........EVERYTHING!

From conversations I've had, many who exhibit this body language would say that, indeed, God is more often than not found in the simpleness of every day life - in the mundane, in quietness, in a basic conversation between individuals (i.e., He is often experienced when this body language isn't being used).

dancedwithdolphin
May 31st 2008, 08:30 AM
I think God reveals himself in amazing and remarkable ways for those who have faith in Him. (that would be the signs and wonder- or miracles)

For those who say they want to believe, yet have hardened hearts towards the truth; well they are the perverse ones- for they cannot see what is in front of their eyes. And then with and unbelieving and unrepentant heart, they ask God for a sign (wonder or miracle).

I think we live in a time of unbelieving and unrepentance, of a people who beg for God to reveal himself to them, and yet they are unwilling to even hear truth from man- how then would they even have the ears to hear it from God. Or the heart to hear the truth from those to whom it has been revealed.

As Solomon once said, There is nothing new under heaven.

godsgirl
May 31st 2008, 10:56 PM
Any time you get the real Spirit of the Lord moving among His people-you will have some kooks coming out of the woodwork-it goes with the territory-but to complain about someones "body language" seems really strange to me., but then, those who were there on the day of Pentecost-were accused of being drunk. We serve a supernatural God and anything supernatural always stirs controversy.

ARCHER42
Jun 1st 2008, 12:35 AM
Christians shouldn't follow signs and wonders-it's the other way around-according to Jesus-signs will follow us. And, timmyb-I've never heard any charismatic say, "the Kingdom of God is signs and wonders".

------------------------------------------------------------
The Kingdom of Heaven comes with 'power'...

dunamis... du-'nam-is.... Jesus demonstrated that when He healed.. cast out devils.. performed miracles...
In casting out devils He demonstrated that the Kingdom Power is 'greater' than the kingdom of darkness. Scribes and Pharisees claim He did this by the powers of darkness... by Beelzebub.. the prince of devils... He asked them.. How can Satan cast out Satan? a kingdom divided will not stand..

but if I with the Finger of God cast out devils.. then without a doubt the Kingdom of God has arrived and is suddenly in the midst of you..

This is Spiritual power.. empowerment...

Jesus Demonstrated it and was 'full of it'... That 'dunamis' is also available to the Believer today....

For the Kingdom of Heaven is not in meat and drink.. but in :

Righteousness and peace and Joy in the Holy Ghost These are manifestations or characteristics of those who 'walk side by side' with Jesus the Christ.. His Spirit indwelling them and empowering them......

I agree those signs will 'follow' those who are walking in the Light and those who have committed their lives 100 percent to the Call of Jesus the Christ..

Many asked Him when the Kingdom of Heaven would appear... yet they could not understand nor see that It was right in the midst of them .. Walking and talking and demonstrating with Power...

He also stated that the Kingdom of Heaven comes not with observation .. (as with trying to look or percieve it with fleshly eyes) Neither shall they say Lo, there it is over there .. or Lo,.. Here it is over here.. He said..
BEHOLD, the Kingdom of God is within you..

When He stood in the synagogue when He first started His ministry... He proclaimed the Kingdom of Heaven, thru the Book of Isaiah, had come... It was suddenly upon them.. The Pharisee and Scribes vehemently and verbally attacked Him saying those Scriptures could only come to pass by the Coming of the Messiah and the Kingdom of God... Obviously they were looking thru there 'fleshly' eyes ... for It was Truly upon them and in the Midst of them.. The same goes for Today..

timmyb
Jun 1st 2008, 02:45 PM
But here's something else... when you see the signs and the wonders and the miracles... how is one to respond? Especially today when such things are sorely lacking. The correct response is to give glory to God of course. But who decides when enough is enough? Man has tried to put dampeners on moves of God in the past century because it was out of their comfort zones. What happens when he really chooses the last man anyone would expect?

If signs and wonders are not about the person doing them, then why all the hype about a man? If they are about God then what's the big deal about who he does them through? What's the big deal about signs and wonders?

My point is, it's all about the position of a person's heart. What do they really want?

ARCHER42
Jun 1st 2008, 03:41 PM
But here's something else... when you see the signs and the wonders and the miracles... how is one to respond? Especially today when such things are sorely lacking. The correct response is to give glory to God of course. But who decides when enough is enough? Man has tried to put dampeners on moves of God in the past century because it was out of their comfort zones. What happens when he really chooses the last man anyone would expect?

If signs and wonders are not about the person doing them, then why all the hype about a man? If they are about God then what's the big deal about who he does them through? What's the big deal about signs and wonders?

My point is, it's all about the position of a person's heart. What do they really want?
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TimmyB

thanks for you repsonses...
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Because were to 'test' the spirits..

Thats the point of this thread.....

Do you believe all miracles done today and done by miracle workers or performed by them are 'all from God'?

Unfortunaely there are alot of people who will do just that..... that's dangerous and to run after them.. to follow them ..... placing your trust in 'those' miracles and then it leads to worshipping and placing your trust in the miracle worker himself/herself. This is IDOLATRY...... These who do will play right into those end time senarios that will come to pass

You may ask youself.. what is an idol?
Go to Corinthians and see what Paul had to say about it.. Is an idol a car, a piece of money? how about a certain belief?... Is it anything?

No an Idol is a DEVIL.... period..

Where do 'devils' abide? what can they abide in? who do they possess? Do devils posses supernatural power to do signs and wonders? Most certainly yes.. but they are limited... Can you discern between what is real and what is false? You most certainly can...

God will not tolerate idolatry... IN the OT you had idols of stone and wood... but when Jesus came He revealed the ' spiritual truth' behind idolatry ... that is 'devils'.. Paul elaborates on it in Corinthians... Jesus gives sight.. not only physical but spiritual sight.. He brought 'Light' to the Gospel.. as a light which shineth in a very very dark place... to make men women and children see... not only physically but spiritually.. not thru fleshly eyes.. but with His eyes...


Those who understand the Truth will not be ignorant of the times we live in and the deception out there.. I will not mince words when it comes to this type of stuff.... I've been down that road and I've been commanded to 'warn' others of that danger...

I will not be very popular and I've accepted that because it's against the 'flow' I'm not here to be popular or please man.......... but its better to be discerning and understanding, being vigilant and aware , understanding the times we live in than just being a 'free spirit', following men, and accepting everything that is thrown in our face.. as Truth or from God.

I pray and will be praying that the 'eyes' of your understanding be enlightened............ and that God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob pour unto you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him...


That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of Glory, may give unto you the Spirit of Widsom and revelation in the knowledge of Him.....

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the Hope of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints.

And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of His mighty Power...

Ephesians 1 : 17-19

godsgirl
Jun 1st 2008, 05:49 PM
How to test the Spirits........


1 John 4:2-3 2 "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.

divaD
Jun 1st 2008, 06:17 PM
We are warned of people who deny the power of the Gospel which is not just in salvation... but
in signs and wonders... they have a form of godliness but deny it's power.


2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


Me being me, I just have to understand how some come to the conclusions that they do. If one reads the above verse, and considers the context surrounding it, one would have to wonder how another can read this same verse and see signs and wonders in it?

Let's take me for example, and apply it to what you stated.

I believe that Jesus Christ paid the price in full with His blood, that He bodily resurrected from the dead, that He ascended into heaven, and that He's coming back. What I don't believe is, that signs and wonders are still being done via the Holy Spirit today, at least not by Pentecostals or Charismatics. I used to believe that these said groups still possessed the gifts of the Holy Spirit today, but at closer observation, I no longer see how they could, or even why they would. What I do indeed believe is this, that the signs and wonders that Jesus, and the apostles, etc performed, these were via the Holy Spirit.

Now putting all of this together, according to what you stated, I possess a form of godliness, but I deny the power thereof, because I no longer see the purpose of signs and wonders via the Holy Spirit these days, at least not according to how or why Pentecostal, or Charismatics claim to still be in possession of and practicing these gifts. So, someone such as I, according to your logic, one should turn away from.


Speaking of being warned about, I can tell you something that we've been warned about, probably more times than anything else in the NT, and that is about NOT being deceived. It appears to me, many fail to heed that warning.

godsgirl
Jun 2nd 2008, 10:56 AM
As a Pentecostal beiever-I believe that our God is supernatural-and as such still works among His children. We do not believe that we 'posess signs and wonders-but do believe that God has not changed-and the gifts of the Spirit are still poured out among His body today.

Jesus still baptises believers in the Holy Spirit today-this is the "power". It is still available to all believers-if they want it.

"for this promise is to you, to your children, and to all who are afar off--even as many as the Lord our God shall call"

Just because you have decided that this isn't for you doesn't mean that the Word is not valid. "Having a form of Godliness, but denying the power"
descibes a lot of churches today.

timmyb
Jun 2nd 2008, 02:35 PM
ok Archer... here's my response... there has to be things that happen along with a sign and a wonder...

Do they increase a person's love for Jesus? (Matthew 22:37)
Is the manifestation of the spirit for the benefit of all? (1 Corinithians 12:7)...

The kind of questions I would ask about a sign and a wonder is "Is this a person trying to promote his own ministry? What are his motives?" Satan will have his own miracle workers in the last days, but just because there are false miracles doesn't mean there are not real ones... that's like saying just because there is fake plastic food you are going to avoid it all real or fake... to avoid the prophetic and signs and wonders is dangerous, it is to deny the benefits of our God... There are real ones out there but there needs to be teachable, but discerning hearts out there to separate the fruit from the nuts... the wheat from the chaff... we have to be filled with the knowledge of his will so we can discern what is excellent and holy and just and good according to Phillippians 1:9

dan
Jun 2nd 2008, 05:10 PM
Just wanted to get some input into what you thought about the 'danger' of Christian's running after and following 'signs and wonders'... is there a danger? What did Jesus the Christ teach about following after signs and wonders... Today as you see this gathering conference and that gathering conference.. miracles here .. miracles there... are there just people going to those to 'see' those miracles? are they there to just get a 'rush' from the experience? I'd like to hear some input from some people... Lets try to keep this civil... Please. and thank you beforehand...


...That "rush" could bring many to Christ and provide some with proof of the existence of God IMO.

Perhaps one danger is someone that, by reading the Bible, realizes some of the evil things that will occur before the Second Coming and supports those things with the intention of speeding up the End Times.

ROM 3:8 Let us not "do evil so that good may come", a statement which we are falsely said by some to have made, because such behaviour will have its right punishment. (Bible In Basic English)

godsgirl
Jun 2nd 2008, 07:38 PM
For the naysayers here-I'm just asking-have you ever felt the overwhelming presence of God?

9Marksfan
Jun 3rd 2008, 09:35 AM
For the naysayers here-I'm just asking-have you ever felt the overwhelming presence of God?

Not sure what you mean by "naysayers", but I'd probably be one of them in your eyes - I agree with ARCHER42's general position, that what we are tending to see in the "signs and wonders" churches is not of the Spirit of God - but that don't mean I'm a cessationist - I DO believe that God can and, when He chooses, does still bless people with spectacularly powerful supernatural gifts - I myself have known that overwhelming presence of God on occasion - and I long for more of it! But God has shown me that one of the most necessary - and least present - gifts in the church today is discerning of spirits.

ARCHER42
Jun 3rd 2008, 01:45 PM
How to test the Spirits........


1 John 4:2-3 2 "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.
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The above must be a different translated version ... The version I have says

every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist...


The devils believe in Jesus Christ and they tremble....

one thing they wont do though is 'confess' that God put on flesh in the Person of Jesus the Christ...
that's exactly what that version 'leaves out'....why would they confess somebody else is God.. when they themselves believe they are God... remember Isaiah..... the cry .. I will be like the most High... the same goes for all those devils that followed their master ...

anybody can come along and talk about Jesus.. the devils even 'acknowleded' Jesus in the NT writings.. and not only him but Paul, Philip......

Just because somebody 'acknowledges' Jesus .. does that mean they are truly 100 percent born again Christian?

Do you not know that Satan 'sows' tares? and that the 'tares' are right in amongst the wheat?

Scripture declares Satan himself is transformed into a angel of light.. his ministers, teachers, false prophets apostles are transformed into ministers of righteousness...

I'm a believer in the full gifts of the Spirit.. I don't believe they were 'stopped at a certain point.. thats not Biblical..

and Yes I have felt and been in the Presence of Lord and had it fall upon me.... The first time I ever felt that was Feb3 1994 when He saved me and set me free.. a peace that I cannot describe and the human mind and reasoning cannot comprehend... and yes it was radical.. l was like the man from the tombs who was possessed with devils.. that was exactly like me....Jesus set me free and soon everybody saw me sitting at Jesus Feet and 'in my right mind'....... and I'm still sitting there today..

ARCHER42
Jun 3rd 2008, 01:55 PM
I would encourage you all to look at what is meant when Jesus Christ said the ,


the LIGHT of the body is the EYE.....

There is something there.. what do the eyes tell you about a person... does it tell you who abides in the 'vessel' or the 'presense' of something in the vessel?

If you read and study it and seek His face ... He will show you......

The LIGHT of the Body is ..... THE EYE.......

ARCHER42
Jun 3rd 2008, 01:58 PM
As a Pentecostal beiever-I believe that our God is supernatural-and as such still works among His children. We do not believe that we 'posess signs and wonders-but do believe that God has not changed-and the gifts of the Spirit are still poured out among His body today.

Jesus still baptises believers in the Holy Spirit today-this is the "power". It is still available to all believers-if they want it.

"for this promise is to you, to your children, and to all who are afar off--even as many as the Lord our God shall call"

Just because you have decided that this isn't for you doesn't mean that the Word is not valid. "Having a form of Godliness, but denying the power"
descibes a lot of churches today.


Where did I ever say that the full Pentecostal power was not for me? I never said that at all.. Now your putting words in my mouth... I'm a 'FULL' believer in Pentecostal power.. but I've also seen that counterfieted...... to an extent....... thats why the concern....

Never did I acknowledge that the 'gifts of the Spirit' had ceased...

thats just not true... but FALSE

divaD
Jun 3rd 2008, 04:12 PM
So as not to confuse anyone. I used to follow the Charismatic movement, I used to be part of it. When I lived in Dallas, I was very fond of Robert Tilton. I even attended his church once or twice.

I recall watching him on tv and him speaking in tongues. I wanted what he had. I wanted those tongues too. I got exactly what I was looking for. One night I was alone and praying for the baptism of the Holy Ghost evidenced by the speaking of tongues(according to Charismatics and Pentecostals).

After about 15-20 mins of praying, I felt a power like electricity shoot thru my body, the next words that came out of my mouth were unintelligable...tongues.

And the thing about it, when I listened to Robert Tilton, I would compare the language that he was using to mine. My tongues sounded almost identical in style to his, so that confirmed that I indeed had this gift.

I could pray in tongues, I could sing in tongues, laugh in tongues, cry in tongues.

Everything seemed perfect in my life and complete at that point. That was until after about a month from when I first starting speaking in tongues. Out of the clear blue sky things started becoming ugly and frightful. At this point when I was speaking in tongues, I would start to see and hear visions in my mind. I would see Christ spitting on me and cursing me. This got so bad that it caused me to backslide.

Before anyone wrongly accuses me, I did nothing wrong. I thought it was me. I thought, how could I love Jesus and at the same time have these vile thoughts racing thru my mind while speaking in tongues. I thought for sure that Jesus didn't want anything more to do with me, so I backslid back into the world. The way I looked at it, if I didn't think about God, I wouldn't have ungodily thoughts racing thru my mind. That's how I dealt with it for 10 yrs or better.

During those 10 yrs or better, the devil literally tried to take me out twice. One was in a car accident. This accident was extremely bad, yet I came out of it almost unhurt. I still recall the officer's words when he arrived on the scene. He plainly described it as a miracle and was in awe that no one was seriously hurt nor killed.

I've got a theory on why these tongues starting going bad on me. God was revealing to me, that the tongues that I thought were from the Holy Spirit, were really not from the Holy Spirit at all. And God was also revealing to me that He had other plans for my life. But I was too busy following signs and wonders, to even realize that I was on to the road of destruction.

I also have another theory. It states in the Bible that satan will perform lying signs and wonders in the last days. Well since we're in the last days, it would make perfect sense for satan to start his plan early on. Get the church used to these Charismatic things early on, and when the time comes for satan to deceive the world with his lying wonders, some in the church won't even have a clue, because they have already been continually deceived by these things for decades.

Does this mean that God is out of the miracle busines? No. I just showed you a miracle of God concerning this car accident, unless one wants to suggest that I was just lucky, and that the hand of God wasn't involved.

What I do believe is this. The sign gifts, these have ceased. Here is a webpage that can explain it better than I. I tend to agree with most things on this particular page. And it's all backed with Scriptures. As far as the rest of that website, I have no clue about. This is the only page that I have read. So I have no idea what they believe and teach as a whole. Nonetheless I see myself agreeing with much of what they wrote on that page.
http://www.the-highway.com/tongues_Arnaud.html

timmyb
Jun 3rd 2008, 05:38 PM
as far as miracles happening being all from God... all I have to say is that only God can heal and restore the human body... so yeah... all healings are from God... satan does not work against himself... a house divided cannot stand...

it doesn't take anything more than a critical spirit to dismiss the work of God... but it takes a discerning and teachable heart to identify it when it's here

ARCHER42
Jun 3rd 2008, 05:58 PM
as far as miracles happening being all from God... all I have to say is that only God can heal and restore the human body... so yeah... all healings are from God... satan does not work against himself... a house divided cannot stand...

it doesn't take anything more than a critical spirit to dismiss the work of God... but it takes a discerning and teachable heart to identify it when it's here
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I disagree with this .. Timmyb

Expain to me this verse then.. this time that is coming in the future...

And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and casueth the earth and them which dwell threin to worship the first beast.... WHOSE DEADLY WOUND WAS HEALED.....
Revelation 13: 17

Is this a healing by the God the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob? I think not .... this is the picture of the antichrist himself and the false prophet...

By this healing he causeth many to worship the beast.. or him 'whose deadly wound was healed'......its counterfiet. and this healing is not done by God, but by the powers of darkenss.. why is it done? TO DECIEVE.. so can the powers of darkness perform healing miracles? YES...

deadly means ; mortal.. death... he is healed and he arises from the dead... Just like Christ did but this will be a 'deception' done to make the masses worship the beast as though he were 'God'....

your statement holds no weight Timmyb...

ARCHER42
Jun 3rd 2008, 06:01 PM
as far as miracles happening being all from God... all I have to say is that only God can heal and restore the human body... so yeah... all healings are from God... satan does not work against himself... a house divided cannot stand...

it doesn't take anything more than a critical spirit to dismiss the work of God... but it takes a discerning and teachable heart to identify it when it's here
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I'd much rather have a 'discerning' spirit and test all things.. and be 'labeled' critical.. than not be discerning and 'decieved' into believing everything that is occuring Supernaturally today is 'from God'....

he that hath ears let him/her hear..

godsgirl
Jun 3rd 2008, 06:03 PM
So many give more power to satan to deceive than in God's power to move upon His children. The gifts have not ceased=we have His Word on it...they will cease, when that which is perfect is come, and we know as we are known, until then the Promise of the Father still stands., and like Peter said, it is for all of us..."for this promise is to you, to your children, and to all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

If you then being evil know how to give good gifts to your chldren, how much more then will your Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask?--if you believe you've received a "stone or a snake" like DivaD said she did-- then perhaps you have but that's not what the Heavenly Father gives His children.

Paul taught when you speak in tongues your spirit is praying to God.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

ProjectPeter
Jun 3rd 2008, 06:06 PM
Okay guys... this truly is just going in the same old circle and it doesn't even have that many post. So lets either go somewhere else with this or just call it done.

Brother Mark
Jun 3rd 2008, 06:08 PM
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I'd much rather have a 'discerning' spirit and test all things.. and be 'labeled' critical.. than not be discerning and 'decieved' into believing everything that is occuring Supernaturally today is 'from God'....

he that hath ears let him/her hear..

Both are ditches and lead to deception. The pharisees, in their critical nature missed the hour of their visitation. Yet, those that chase after the signs and wonders of the anti-christ will too be deceived.

Better to weigh things cautiously and see what is of God and what is not of God.

ARCHER42
Jun 3rd 2008, 06:15 PM
So many give more power to satan to deceive than in God's power to move upon His children


-------------------------------------------------------------

Do you think I'm doing this ? Do you think this is what this thread is all about? I dont think so.. Never have a given Satan any more power than he is limited too... but I'm not going to just let him decieve those who think he is the figment of someobody' imagination or that he really isnt active today or that we can just run around accepting everything that is supernatual .. is from God....... That is totally Unbiblical... You need to go read my posts in some other threads.. and if you think I'm giving Satan more power than what he has.. your WRONG....

discussing the enemies tactics and what he does and how he operates in this present world.. and testing all things .. discussing how to discern his ways from God's ways....how he conterfiets and try's to play God... if that is giving him more power and it is being critical.. WOW.. then somebody needs to do some examining....

for we are not 'ignorant' of his devices...

All I did was state a fact that you have to be discerning and test things.. Obviously this is not going on today.. as its a 'free for all' as far as the Supernatural goes.... hearts are prime for the 'major delusion' that is coming to this Earth.....

he that hath ears let him hear..

ARCHER42
Jun 3rd 2008, 06:21 PM
The pharisees, in their critical nature missed the hour of their visitation.
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Brother Mark.. I can guarantee you that I have not missed the 'hour ' of my visitation.... if your referring this to me....

if you want exactes dates. I can tell you...

February 3 1994.... He knows cause He was there...

ProjectPeter
Jun 3rd 2008, 06:27 PM
Okay... let's color this closed. YES... DISCERNMENT is key today. YES... there is much nonsense. YES... many will be deceived with nonsense. YES... the gifts are real. YES... much of the folks that "exercise" those gifts today are at best operating in their flesh or at worst demonic. YES... folks will disagree with that. YES... etc. etc. But I just don't see this as doing much of anyone any good. So we'll just call this puppy closed.