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merjorg
May 27th 2008, 08:32 PM
Hebrews 6 (NIV): 4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30035b)]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

What exactly does this mean for someone who "fell away" or came very close to doing so - who experienced these things and then went into a deep valley again?

We have verses that tell us when we fall to get back up, we have the parable of the prodigal son, we have the verses that say that nobody can be snatched out of His hand, we have the verse that tells us that our calling is irrevocable (Rom 11:29). How do the Hebrews verses line up with these?

merjorg
May 27th 2008, 08:44 PM
Since making my original post, I read some old threads on the topic which definitely helped my understanding.

alethos
May 27th 2008, 09:31 PM
Hebrews 6 (NIV): 4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30035b)]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

What exactly does this mean for someone who "fell away" or came very close to doing so - who experienced these things and then went into a deep valley again?

We have verses that tell us when we fall to get back up, we have the parable of the prodigal son, we have the verses that say that nobody can be snatched out of His hand, we have the verse that tells us that our calling is irrevocable (Rom 11:29). How do the Hebrews verses line up with these?

"Scot McKnight, who surveys and interacts with a variety of approaches to the interpretation of this passage provides a fresh, detailed formal analysis of 6:4-6 and the other warning passages in Hebrews, suggesting that the warning passages, especially 6:4-6, should be read synthetically in relationship to one another rather than individually. Based on his analysis McKnight concludes that the warnings address the sin of apostasy, and that although believers experience the reality of salvation in the present, a failure to persevere to the end can result in the cessation of that reality."

9Marksfan
May 28th 2008, 12:18 AM
"although believers experience the reality of salvation in the present, a failure to persevere to the end can result in the cessation of that reality."

In other words, he thinks that you can truly have salvation and can truly lose it. So, God either breaks His promises deliberately and can't be trusted (Jn 10:28-30) or can't keep His promises and shouldn't be worshipped as Almighty, 'cos WE'RE stronger than Him! :B

fewarechosen
May 28th 2008, 12:50 AM
hmmmm

lets say i get the holy ghost-- which is what saves us.
then i say well this is great i can never leave god or stray.

i dont have to bother treating my neighbor well because i already have my get out of hell free card, sure christ tells me to but who cares im saved he wont go back on his promise. im gonna go get some hookers and get high and celibrate.

so now this guy knows he is saved and can do whatever he wants no matter how evil and it doesnt matter cause hes saved, it wont matter at all for hes going to heaven.

but now ask, what is the sin against the holy ghost that will not be forgiven?.


31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.


so what is the sin against the holy ghost and why does god say it wont be forgiven ? and why that one ?isnt god all forgiving ?

its awsome if i cant fall away cause here i was trying to not do wrong -- but im free from that now IM SAVED
lets all party i will bring the hookers and drugs.


37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Partaker of Christ
May 28th 2008, 12:56 AM
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Does this refer just to a physical death?
I don't truly know, but what of Enoch and Elijah? What of those who remain and are alive at His second coming?

Before the fall, Adam was alive in spirit, and all mankind was in Adam, so all mankind was alive before the fall.
After the fall Adam died in spirit, and so also did all mankind.

So spiritually we have all without exception died once in Adam, and then the judgment.
When we put our trust in Christ Jesus, we are made alive again through regeneration.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

We know from scripture that the lake of fire is the second death (the judgment). If this is a second death for the unregenerate who have rejected Christ, then according to some, that must surely mean a third death, for those who are said to have fallen away.

It would infer that some would receive 'the judgment' twice.

The word 'fall away' in Heb 6:6 is not 'apostasia', but 'parapipto' and it is akin to A, No 2. 'paraptoma'

<B-7,Verb,3895,parapipto>
akin to A, No. 2, properly, "to fall in one's way" (para, "by"), signifies "to fall away" (from adherence to the realities and facts of the faith), Heb_6:6.

<A-2,Noun,3900,paraptoma>
primarily "a false step, a blunder" (para, "aside," pipto, "to fall"), then "a lapse from uprightness, a sin, a moral trespass, misdeed," is translated "fall" in Rom_11:11-12, of the sin and "downfall" of Israel in their refusal to acknowledge God's claims and His Christ; by reason of this the offer of salvation was made to Gentiles; cp. ptaio, "to stumble," in Rom_11:11. See FAULT, OFFENSE, SIN, TRESPASS.

<A-3,Noun,646,apostasia>
"a defection, revolt, apostasy," is used in the NT of religious apostasy; in Act_21:21, it is translated "to forsake," lit., "thou teachest apostasy from Moses." In 2Th_2:3 "the falling away" signifies apostasy from the faith. In papyri documents it is used politically of rebels. Note: For "mighty fall," Rev_18:21, RV, see VIOLENCE.

Partaker of Christ
May 28th 2008, 01:03 AM
hmmmm

lets say i get the holy ghost-- which is what saves us.
then i say well this is great i can never leave god or stray.

i dont have to bother treating my neighbor well because i already have my get out of hell free card, sure christ tells me to but who cares im saved he wont go back on his promise. im gonna go get some hookers and get high and celibrate.

so now this guy knows he is saved and can do whatever he wants no matter how evil and it doesnt matter cause hes saved, it wont matter at all for hes going to heaven.

but now ask, what is the sin against the holy ghost that will not be forgiven?.


31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.


so what is the sin against the holy ghost and why does god say it wont be forgiven ? and why that one ?isnt god all forgiving ?

its awsome if i cant fall away cause here i was trying to not do wrong -- but im free from that now IM SAVED
lets all party i will bring the hookers and drugs.

I think this is what is called a 'straw man' argument.

fewarechosen
May 28th 2008, 01:05 AM
then please correct me for i am a fool

Clifton
May 28th 2008, 01:05 AM
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Literally, "it is appointed unto men to die once" (i.e., only one time), which is an antidote for the notion of the transmigration of souls - IOW, leaving a body behind in one life, and the soul entering into a new body in a next life, continuously.

Obviously, not each and every person meet that "appointment". You pointed out Elias and Enoch, and there have been those raised from the dead, whom have died more than once.
;)

Blessings.

ARCHER42
May 28th 2008, 03:54 AM
Literally, "it is appointed unto men to die once" (i.e., only one time), which is an antidote for the notion of the transmigration of souls - IOW, leaving a body behind in one life, and the soul entering into a new body in a next life, continuously.

Obviously, not each and every person meet that "appointment". You pointed out Elias and Enoch, and there have been those raised from the dead, whom have died more than once.
;)
Blessings.


Good point... There was the young girl who Jesus raised from the dead.. then Lazarus.... There was a young girl in the Book of Acts who was raised from the dead... I would come to understand that these people later on would eventually fall asleep again.. (die) physical death....

servant of Lord
May 28th 2008, 04:29 AM
Hebrews 6 (NIV): 4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30035b)]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

What exactly does this mean for someone who "fell away" or came very close to doing so - who experienced these things and then went into a deep valley again?

We have verses that tell us when we fall to get back up, we have the parable of the prodigal son, we have the verses that say that nobody can be snatched out of His hand, we have the verse that tells us that our calling is irrevocable (Rom 11:29). How do the Hebrews verses line up with these?

I know from experience for myself that walking away from Him is really hard for me to understand. He is so great and had come and changed so much in my life. He filled me with His Holy Spirit and oh what joy I had. The fellowship with Him was awesome...the peace was not of this world. The annoiting was upon me...but then how could I fall ? If He loved me and said that He would never leave me or forsake me ? what happened ?
I did learn this: Jesus is the Good Sheperd. He came and got me. I had hard time understanding how He could or would forgive me for what I had done..to have felt the love and power of His Spirit and walk back out into the world..
But , through a very dark time in my life Jesus taught me alot..How the cares of this world had gotten to me..I am not perfect..but He works on me dailey..I am thankful that He corrects me and guides me to truth in Him...when I stumble He shows me what happened and helps me to overcome by His spirit..
I still feel though ...I hate that I ever walked away as I did..it seems I lost something when I did..never have I felt the peace and power of annoiting as I did..I know though that He forgave me..though it was hard for me to forgive myself..
I want to be a vessel of honor and not dishonor...But praise God that in the word He tells us that rejoicing happens in heaven when one returns to the Lord...But oh , how for myself would I wish that I had stayed on the path...I struggled and cryed out for months upon months to all I knew to pray..I was strattling the fence...and then one day I jumped on over and ran in the world ....but oh, the sweet voice of My Lord called out to me..calling me to come home...and I came..He washed me in teh Blood and forgave me of the sin...oh, what a Jesus we have...

2Witnesses
May 28th 2008, 07:25 AM
Hebrews 6 (NIV): 4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30035b)]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

What exactly does this mean for someone who "fell away" or came very close to doing so - who experienced these things and then went into a deep valley again?

We have verses that tell us when we fall to get back up, we have the parable of the prodigal son, we have the verses that say that nobody can be snatched out of His hand, we have the verse that tells us that our calling is irrevocable (Rom 11:29). How do the Hebrews verses line up with these?

Merjorg,

These verses have nothing to do with a believing Christian 'falling away' and losing his salvation.

This is spoken to Israel who, while Yeshua was among them, rejected Him, though they saw His wonderful works.

So the 'green tree' Jesus spoke of while on His way to the cross, dried up, and became thorns, fit only for burning. And in 70AD this happened.

2Witnesses

9Marksfan
May 28th 2008, 08:28 AM
hmmmm

lets say i get the holy ghost-- which is what saves us.

It is Christ who saves - and why di you say "which" not "who"?


then i say well this is great i can never leave god or stray.

I didn't say that you can never stray - Scripture doesn't teach that - look at King David and Peter for a start!


i dont have to bother treating my neighbor well because i already have my get out of hell free card, sure christ tells me to but who cares im saved he wont go back on his promise. im gonna go get some hookers and get high and celibrate.

While I accept that this phenomenon is tragically all too common, it results from false teaching about eternal security and is imho evidence that the person's heart has never been regenerated. What is the ministry of the Holy Spirit to people who need Christ?


so now this guy knows he is saved and can do whatever he wants no matter how evil and it doesnt matter cause hes saved, it wont matter at all for hes going to heaven.

As I said, I'm not saying that and Scripture absolutely does NOT teach that. That is turning the grace of God into licentiousness.


but now ask, what is the sin against the holy ghost that will not be forgiven?.


31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.


so what is the sin against the holy ghost and why does god say it wont be forgiven ? and why that one ?isnt god all forgiving ?

No - and I actually agree with you - folks that have that mindset - that have a little knowledge of the gospel but use the grace of God a sa licence to sin may well end up committing the unforgivable sin - as the old divines used to say - it is light in the head but darkness in the heart - a situation we should all fear......


its awsome if i cant fall away cause here i was trying to not do wrong -- but im free from that now IM SAVED
lets all party i will bring the hookers and drugs.


37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

What's your point about the verse? I believe (as I assume you do) that only those who endure to the end will be saved - the grace of God never leaves a person's life unchanged - they will hate sin increasingly and strive to be holy - that is the evidence of the Spirit's presence in there lives - if they're casual about sin, Scripture says they never knew God in the first place.

graceforme
May 28th 2008, 11:03 AM
It is Christ who saves - and why di you say "which" not "who"?



I didn't say that you can never stray - Scripture doesn't teach that - look at King David and Peter for a start!



While I accept that this phenomenon is tragically all too common, it results from false teaching about eternal security and is imho evidence that the person's heart has never been regenerated. What is the ministry of the Holy Spirit to people who need Christ?



As I said, I'm not saying that and Scripture absolutely does NOT teach that. That is turning the grace of God into licentiousness.



No - and I actually agree with you - folks that have that mindset - that have a little knowledge of the gospel but use the grace of God a sa licence to sin may well end up committing the unforgivable sin - as the old divines used to say - it is light in the head but darkness in the heart - a situation we should all fear......



What's your point about the verse? I believe (as I assume you do) that only those who endure to the end will be saved - the grace of God never leaves a person's life unchanged - they will hate sin increasingly and strive to be holy - that is the evidence of the Spirit's presence in there lives - if they're casual about sin, Scripture says they never knew God in the first place.


Good words. I am weary of hearing people say that those of us who believe in OSAS think we have a license to sin .... I've known many sinners in my life and participated in sin myself - a lot - and I've never known anyone who had to have a license - we all sinned quite easily without one. Grace is much more capable of keeping us from sin than the Law ever did or ever will. Otherwise, Christ's sacrifice would not have been necessary. Yes, I can do whatever I want, but my "want to" has changed. That change came about when God's grace changed my heart. If the grace of God isn't enough to motivate us to obey God out of love, not fear, then maybe we should take a careful look at the condition of our heart.

Many blessings to all.

fewarechosen
May 28th 2008, 11:42 AM
again mark we might totally agree lol

i used holy spirit just meaning its whatt gods sends and marks us with so we know.

---- now do you think its possible for someone to recieve the holy spirit then commit such sin that there will be no place found for him in heaven ?

now as far as truly saved --someone who is truly saved will never fall away, but are you saying that recieving the holy spirit makes one truly saved ?

Jesusinmyheart
May 28th 2008, 03:08 PM
Grace is much more capable of keeping us from sin than the Law ever did or ever will. Otherwise, Christ's sacrifice would not have been necessary.

I thought it wasn't the Law that was bad, but man's heart who refused to be circumcised....:rolleyes:

If one is not able to have the Law in their heart and allow the Spirit to work inside that heart then one continues to walk in sin IMO.

Peace,
Tanja

threebigrocks
May 28th 2008, 05:55 PM
then please correct me for i am a fool

Not to correct you, but for thought.

Ephesians 1



13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.



We were given a deposit of promise.

We have a pledge of inheritance of redemption.

Now, if we put a deposit down on something, so we own it fully or do we need to have it paid in full before it is ours? Is a promise something that is now, or something that is to come?

When does one claim in reality an inheritance? While one is still living, or when one dies? If that pledge, which is something to come, is for redemption - how can we be fully redeemed now?

If we have it all now, why the need for faith? Why run a race if it's all paid for and the promise is reality?

Hebrews 12

1Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

Why endure if our salvation and redemption are complete?

Romans 8


24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.



In hope we have been saved, through faith. We must persevere.

fewarechosen
May 28th 2008, 06:54 PM
threebigrocks i completely agree with you, and well said

9Marksfan
May 28th 2008, 08:31 PM
again mark we might totally agree lol

i used holy spirit just meaning its whatt gods sends and marks us with so we know.

---- now do you think its possible for someone to recieve the holy spirit then commit such sin that there will be no place found for him in heaven ?

No - if we have the Holy Spirit, we are Christ's - and if we belong to Christ, we are His forever - sealed by the Spirit UNTO the day of redemption - the Spirit is given as a GUARANTEE of our inheritance.


now as far as truly saved --someone who is truly saved will never fall away, but are you saying that recieving the holy spirit makes one truly saved ?

Yes - why not? What else is needed?!?

threebigrocks
May 28th 2008, 08:46 PM
Yes - why not? What else is needed?!?

James 2



17Even sofaith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.



Luke 3


8"Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 9"Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."


Works are the fruit of keeping with repentance. Works don't save, but faith is an action.

What of the verses I posted in the above post Marksfan?

Partaker of Christ
May 28th 2008, 09:29 PM
James 2



Luke 3

Works are the fruit of keeping with repentance. Works don't save, but faith is an action.

What of the verses I posted in the above post Marksfan?

Of course faith can be an action.
God works in us to will and to do.

Faith can also be a 'no action', in that we cease to do, and let God.

Jesus said 'the good ground will bare much fruit'

Matt 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matt 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold some sixty, some thirty.

Matt 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

9Marksfan
May 28th 2008, 09:29 PM
James 2



Luke 3

Works are the fruit of keeping with repentance. Works don't save, but faith is an action.

What of the verses I posted in the above post Marksfan?

Who ULTIMATELY works these things?

For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Phil 2:13 NKJV

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:13 NKJV

His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 2 Pet 1:3 NIV

So of course these verses are true, but God has given us His Spirit that we would do the works of God - you are basically saying that if the Spirit is not enough but we need works as well, then we are justified by works and that is another gospel.

fewarechosen
May 28th 2008, 09:34 PM
just so we are on the same page 9marks

what do you belive the blashpheme against the holy ghost is ?

and why would he say its unforgivable.

christ died for our sins by why not that ?


Hebrews 6 (NIV): 4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30035b)]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


and what is your interpretation of that scripture

9Marksfan
May 28th 2008, 10:00 PM
just so we are on the same page 9marks

what do you belive the blashpheme against the holy ghost is ?

Rejecting Christ permanently as the Holy Spirit revelas Him through the gospel.


and why would he say its unforgivable.

Because only those who believe in Christ are forgiven.


christ died for our sins by why not that ?

Let's put it another way - did Christ intend to save those who would believe on Him when He died?


Hebrews 6 (NIV): 4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30035b)]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


and what is your interpretation of that scripture

My interpretation is that people can come SO CLOSE to being saved - but if they never "come through" fully and fall away, that's it - no second opportunity.......

Partaker of Christ
May 28th 2008, 10:20 PM
just so we are on the same page 9marks

what do you belive the blashpheme against the holy ghost is ?

and why would he say its unforgivable.

christ died for our sins by why not that ?

Vine's Notes: As to Christ's teaching concerning "blasphemy" against the Holy Spirit, e.g., Matt_12:32, that anyone, with the evidence of the Lord's power before His eyes, should declare it to be Satanic, exhibited a condition of heart beyond Divine illumination and therefore hopeless. Divine forgiveness would be inconsistent with the moral nature of God. As to the Son of Man, in his state of humiliation, there might be misunderstanding, but not so with the Holy Spirit's power demonstrated.



Hebrews 6 (NIV): 4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30035b)]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


and what is your interpretation of that scripture

It basically means that once a person has repented, and accepted that Christ has died once for all their sins, then the foundation of their faith has been laid.

Since Christ died once for all sins, then you cannot (having fallen away) come back and lay that same foundation again. That would make Christ's death no more affective then the old yearly animal sacrifices, and it would put Christ to shame. You would have to crucify the Son of God afresh.

After falling away (parapipto) not (apostasia), you can come back to your first love, but you cannot relay the foundation (renew them again unto repentance), for their is no more sacrifice for sin.

Rev 2:5a Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works;

Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Puddleglum
May 28th 2008, 10:34 PM
lets say i get the holy ghost-- which is what saves us.
then i say well this is great i can never leave god or stray.

you can leave or stray all you want to, though im not sure why you would. at any rate, they key is, God doesnt leave or stray from you.


i dont have to bother treating my neighbor well because i already have my get out of hell free card, sure christ tells me to but who cares im saved he wont go back on his promise. im gonna go get some hookers and get high and celibrate.
Youre right actually. I klnow youre being sarcastic. Still, you make a very valid point. Christ was a get out of jail free card. And im a card carrier! He will not go back on His promise. He swore to it by His holiness. I dont know about you, but if God is going to swear to something by His holiness...It wont be me to tell Him thats not good enough.



so now this guy knows he is saved and can do whatever he wants no matter how evil and it doesnt matter cause hes saved, it wont matter at all for hes going to heaven.

Could? sure. the real question is why would he? and why are you so angry that he can or could? Christ compelles us to change. I am very leary of trying to determine what sins or how many will keep me out of Heaven. Especially since the main purpose of Christ's death was not just to die for our "sins," but to die for our "Sin."




its awsome if i cant fall away cause here i was trying to not do wrong -- but im free from that now IM SAVED
lets all party i will bring the hookers and drugs.


whats the deal with the hookers and drugs? thats the second time youve mentioned them.

there is no "doing wrong" vs "doing good." there is grace...and thats it.
Do we have lincence to sin? of course not! Why would we want to?
If God breaks his convenant with us, then whats to say He wont change His mind about your good deeds? I promise you, your perspective of "good" and God's perspective of "Good" are vastly two different things.

Puddleglum
May 28th 2008, 10:35 PM
then please correct me for i am a fool


you got a lot of anger in you. whats the story?

Are you actually angry with your salvation? are you actually angry that through Christ we receive complete justifaction?

Im very confused in the tone of your delivery.

Puddleglum
May 28th 2008, 10:39 PM
Good words. I am weary of hearing people say that those of us who believe in OSAS think we have a license to sin .... I've known many sinners in my life and participated in sin myself - a lot - and I've never known anyone who had to have a license - we all sinned quite easily without one. Grace is much more capable of keeping us from sin than the Law ever did or ever will. Otherwise, Christ's sacrifice would not have been necessary. Yes, I can do whatever I want, but my "want to" has changed. That change came about when God's grace changed my heart. If the grace of God isn't enough to motivate us to obey God out of love, not fear, then maybe we should take a careful look at the condition of our heart.

Many blessings to all.


I always loved that its His kindness that leads us to repentence

Lars777
May 28th 2008, 10:47 PM
For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it was cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned. (Hebrews 6:4-8)

What a sobering passage!

There is, first, the elaboration of an awful possibility. It is impossible to restore again to repentance these who experience certain Spirit-given blessings, if they shall fall away.

The problem of the passage is: How can anyone experience all of this and not be Christian? And, if he is Christian, how can he fall away, without any hope of restoration? It is over these issues that the battle has waged hot throughout the Christian ages.

It is important to see that all of this passage hangs upon the three words, if God permits: "This we will do, if God permits."

Here is the danger of prolonged immaturity, of remaining in one place all your Christian life. It suggests that you may be one of those whom God will not allow to go further; we have already seen in Chapter 3 that God has said of certain ones, "I swear in my wrath, they shall never enter my rest."

Can we take these expressions here as describing anything other than Spirit-produced, authentic Christian life? Look at them again:

"Those who have once been enlightened." That means, to have their eyes opened to their own desperate personal need, to realize they are in a lost world and need a Savior. That is being enlightened.

"And have tasted the heavenly gift." What is the heavenly gift? Obviously, it is the gift God gave from heaven. "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son. " These are those who have known a personal encounter with Christ, they have "tasted of the heavenly gift."

"Become partakers of the Holy Spirit." That is more than to be influenced by the Holy Spirit, it is to become companions of him, fellow travelers.

"They have tasted the goodness of the word of God." That means to enter into the joy of the promises of God.

"And the powers of the age to come," i.e., they have already experienced the miracle of release and deliverance in their life.

Yet the sentence stands, "when they commit apostasy" (not if, there is no if in the original Greek) it is impossible to restore them. Their case is hopeless!

The immediate question here is not, "Why can they not come back? We will look at that in a moment, but first we must ask, How can they fall away after such a God-honored start as this?

I should like to propose an explanation of this which has long haunted me. I would like to raise a question for you to wrestle with which more and more suggests, at least to me, the correct explanation of this phenomenon.

We have already noted that Scripture frequently uses the analogy of human birth and growth to explain spiritual birth and growth. We have that even here.

The use of milk by children is an analogy drawn from the physical life. Here is the question I would like to ask: Is it not possible that we frequently confuse conception with birth?

If the spiritual life follows the same pattern as the physical life, we all know that physical life does not begin with birth. It begins with conception.

Have we not, perhaps, mistaken conception for birth, and, therefore, have been very confused when certain ones, who seemingly started well, have ended up stillborn?

Is there in the spiritual life, as in the natural life, a gestation period before birth when true Spirit-imparted life can fail and result in a stillbirth?

Is there not a time when new Christians are more like embryos, forming little by little in the womb, fed by the faith and vitality of others? Perhaps this is what the Apostle Paul means when he writes to the Galatians, "My little children, I stand in doubt of you. I am travailing in birth again until Christ be formed in you," (Galatians 4:19).

If this be the case, then the critical moment is not when the Word first meets with faith, that is conception; that is when the possibility of new life arises.

But the critical moment is when the individual is asked to obey the Lord at cost to himself, contrary to his own will and desire. When, in other words, the Lordship of Christ makes demand upon him and it comes into conflict with his own desire and purposes, his own plans and program.

To put it in terms of what is used of the Lord Jesus in Chapter 5, we are called upon to learn obedience at the price of suffering. That is the true moment of birth.

"If any man will come after me," said Jesus, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross and follow me," (Matthew 16:24). In grace, the Lord may make this appeal over the course of a number of years. But if it is ultimately refused, this is a stillbirth.

The months, and even years, that may be spent in the enjoyment of conversion joy was simply Christian life in embryo. The new birth occurs, if at all, when we first cease from our own works, and rest in Jesus Christ. That is when the life of faith begins.

If this step is refused and the decision is made to reject the claims of Christ to Lordship and control, there follows, as Hebrews points out, a hardening, blinding process which, if allowed to continue, may lead such a one to drop out of church, and in effect, to renounce his Christian faith.

Though only God knows the true condition of the heart, if that occurs, the case, he says, is hopeless.

Is this not what the Lord Jesus describes in that parable of the sower in Matthew 13? "Some seed," he says, "fell on rocky ground" (Matthew 13:20) (not gravelly ground, but ground where there was an underlying layer of rock).

These are those who receive the word with joy and endure for awhile, but when persecution or tribulation arises, immediately they fall away.

This brings us to the explanation for this hopelessness, this impossibility of return. "It is impossible to restore them if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt."

Why is it that God will not permit them to go on in understanding more truth? It is simply because, as far as they are concerned, they are re-crucifying Christ.

They are repudiating the principle of the cross. They become, as Paul terms it in Philippians, "enemies of the cross of Christ," (Philippians 3:18). From that point on their lives deteriorate and they shame the profession they once made.

9Marksfan
May 28th 2008, 10:56 PM
For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it was cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned. (Hebrews 6:4-8)

What a sobering passage!

There is, first, the elaboration of an awful possibility. It is impossible to restore again to repentance these who experience certain Spirit-given blessings, if they shall fall away.

The problem of the passage is: How can anyone experience all of this and not be Christian? And, if he is Christian, how can he fall away, without any hope of restoration? It is over these issues that the battle has waged hot throughout the Christian ages.

It is important to see that all of this passage hangs upon the three words, if God permits: "This we will do, if God permits."

Here is the danger of prolonged immaturity, of remaining in one place all your Christian life. It suggests that you may be one of those whom God will not allow to go further; we have already seen in Chapter 3 that God has said of certain ones, "I swear in my wrath, they shall never enter my rest."

Can we take these expressions here as describing anything other than Spirit-produced, authentic Christian life? Look at them again:

"Those who have once been enlightened." That means, to have their eyes opened to their own desperate personal need, to realize they are in a lost world and need a Savior. That is being enlightened.

"And have tasted the heavenly gift." What is the heavenly gift? Obviously, it is the gift God gave from heaven. "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son. " These are those who have known a personal encounter with Christ, they have "tasted of the heavenly gift."

"Become partakers of the Holy Spirit." That is more than to be influenced by the Holy Spirit, it is to become companions of him, fellow travelers.

"They have tasted the goodness of the word of God." That means to enter into the joy of the promises of God.

"And the powers of the age to come," i.e., they have already experienced the miracle of release and deliverance in their life.

Yet the sentence stands, "when they commit apostasy" (not if, there is no if in the original Greek) it is impossible to restore them. Their case is hopeless!

The immediate question here is not, "Why can they not come back? We will look at that in a moment, but first we must ask, How can they fall away after such a God-honored start as this?

I should like to propose an explanation of this which has long haunted me. I would like to raise a question for you to wrestle with which more and more suggests, at least to me, the correct explanation of this phenomenon.

We have already noted that Scripture frequently uses the analogy of human birth and growth to explain spiritual birth and growth. We have that even here.

The use of milk by children is an analogy drawn from the physical life. Here is the question I would like to ask: Is it not possible that we frequently confuse conception with birth?

If the spiritual life follows the same pattern as the physical life, we all know that physical life does not begin with birth. It begins with conception.

Have we not, perhaps, mistaken conception for birth, and, therefore, have been very confused when certain ones, who seemingly started well, have ended up stillborn?

Is there in the spiritual life, as in the natural life, a gestation period before birth when true Spirit-imparted life can fail and result in a stillbirth?

Is there not a time when new Christians are more like embryos, forming little by little in the womb, fed by the faith and vitality of others? Perhaps this is what the Apostle Paul means when he writes to the Galatians, "My little children, I stand in doubt of you. I am travailing in birth again until Christ be formed in you," (Galatians 4:19).

If this be the case, then the critical moment is not when the Word first meets with faith, that is conception; that is when the possibility of new life arises.

But the critical moment is when the individual is asked to obey the Lord at cost to himself, contrary to his own will and desire. When, in other words, the Lordship of Christ makes demand upon him and it comes into conflict with his own desire and purposes, his own plans and program.

To put it in terms of what is used of the Lord Jesus in Chapter 5, we are called upon to learn obedience at the price of suffering. That is the true moment of birth.

"If any man will come after me," said Jesus, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross and follow me," (Matthew 16:24). In grace, the Lord may make this appeal over the course of a number of years. But if it is ultimately refused, this is a stillbirth.

The months, and even years, that may be spent in the enjoyment of conversion joy was simply Christian life in embryo. The new birth occurs, if at all, when we first cease from our own works, and rest in Jesus Christ. That is when the life of faith begins.

If this step is refused and the decision is made to reject the claims of Christ to Lordship and control, there follows, as Hebrews points out, a hardening, blinding process which, if allowed to continue, may lead such a one to drop out of church, and in effect, to renounce his Christian faith.

Though only God knows the true condition of the heart, if that occurs, the case, he says, is hopeless.

Is this not what the Lord Jesus describes in that parable of the sower in Matthew 13? "Some seed," he says, "fell on rocky ground" (Matthew 13:20) (not gravelly ground, but ground where there was an underlying layer of rock).

These are those who receive the word with joy and endure for awhile, but when persecution or tribulation arises, immediately they fall away.

This brings us to the explanation for this hopelessness, this impossibility of return. "It is impossible to restore them if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt."

Why is it that God will not permit them to go on in understanding more truth? It is simply because, as far as they are concerned, they are re-crucifying Christ.

They are repudiating the principle of the cross. They become, as Paul terms it in Philippians, "enemies of the cross of Christ," (Philippians 3:18). From that point on their lives deteriorate and they shame the profession they once made.

Wow - that's REALLY thought-provoking. I, too, had thought about the distinction between conception and birth in the spiritualm realm - and confusing gestation with post-birth growth (sanctification). I'll need to think things through a bit but my initial thought is, the one thing that is MISSING from the list of Christian experience is FAITH - and withut faith, it is impossible to please Him. I guess we all know what spiritual conception is - but the new birth and faith are so closely and inextricably linked that we can say that unless we believe, we haven't been born again - no matter what else we may have experienced or encountered......

timmyb
May 28th 2008, 10:58 PM
Not to correct you, but for thought.

Ephesians 1



We were given a deposit of promise.

We have a pledge of inheritance of redemption.

Now, if we put a deposit down on something, so we own it fully or do we need to have it paid in full before it is ours? Is a promise something that is now, or something that is to come?

When does one claim in reality an inheritance? While one is still living, or when one dies? If that pledge, which is something to come, is for redemption - how can we be fully redeemed now?

If we have it all now, why the need for faith? Why run a race if it's all paid for and the promise is reality?

Hebrews 12


Why endure if our salvation and redemption are complete?

Romans 8


In hope we have been saved, through faith. We must persevere.

then why does Christ say that he who endures to the end shall be saved? (Matt 24:13)

fewarechosen
May 28th 2008, 11:02 PM
lars you saved me alot of time :) -- and very well said

also i would add to your explination

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled

he says those that thou gavest me
so they were actually christs- not someone almost to christ, and to be christs you have to be in the body.
none of them is lost, BUT the son of perdition.

so one was his and then was lost.

never assume we are saved for in
so doing we assume we know gods judgement

you can know you have the holy spirit, but you dont know you are saved.

we must abide in what he taught us and endure till the end.

many want the whole hey IM SAVED i have no worries feeling--- but that is the devil talking

also i am a fool and that doesnt make me angry to say that
and its not anger its hate you see

But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

and good qoute timmy

timmyb
May 28th 2008, 11:05 PM
lars you saved me alot of time :)

also i would add to your explination

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled

he says those that thou gavest me
so they were actually christs- not someone almost to christ, and to be christs you have to be in the body.
none of them is lost, BUT the son of perdition.

so one was his and then was lost.

never assume we are saved for in
so doing we assume we know gods judgement

you can know you have the holy spirit, but you dont know you are saved.

we must abide in what he taught us and endure till the end.

many want the whole hey IM SAVED i have no worries feeling--- but that is the devil talking

that's the attitude of most people that I know... they say it because at one point they asked Jesus in their heart and now they are 'secure' in their salvation so they can now indulge themselves in all manner of sin and everyone will point to the Romans 10:9-10 saying they called upon the name of Jesus... but Paul warns us time and time again that the situation of the church that men will become sinful and men of lust and they will have a form of godliness but deny it's power

Partaker of Christ
May 28th 2008, 11:12 PM
Hi Lars7777!

What obedience did we have to perform, in being born?
Were did our 'work' or 'will' come into play, before we could become a child?
How much disobedience will separate us from our parents (though their hearts are evil)?

fewarechosen
May 28th 2008, 11:33 PM
lars the whole gestation got me thinking also.

i wonder if that is somehow reflected in christ going 40 days in desert to be tempted.

then when he came back there was no temptations for him left.

perhaps thats where many of us go astray
we dont get all our temptations over in a sense we linger on them

just a thought

9Marksfan
May 28th 2008, 11:43 PM
so one was his and then was lost.

No - it DOESN'T say that Judas was ever His - it just says he wasn't kept because he was the son of perdition - ie never saved - destined to be lost.


never assume we are saved for in
so doing we assume we know gods judgement

you can know you have the holy spirit, but you dont know you are saved.

So you are saying that assurance is always presumptuous - NEVER possible for the Christian? What about this verse, then?

Let us draw near with a true heart, in full assurance of faith... Heb 10:22 NKJV


we must abide in what he taught us and endure till the end.

Amen! And in so doing, we WILL have assurance!


many want the whole hey IM SAVED i have no worries feeling--- but that is the devil talking

Frequently so, yes.


also i am a fool and that doesnt make me angry to say that
and its not anger its hate you see

But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

and good qoute timmy

Yes, we should hate that which is evil - but going WAY back to the meaning of miseo, do you really want to disagree with the experts in NT Greek that miseo in some contexts meant "to love more than"?

fewarechosen
May 28th 2008, 11:54 PM
1 well on the first point we will have to disagree. how could one be kept if it was never his. i cant keep anything that isnt mine. he would have never said but if that was the case

2 i have full assurance if i abide in what he taught me and endure till the end i will be saved (and of course thats after receiving the holy spirit) but i never assume i wont stray i could denounce christ at anytime, i just pray that i dont.

3 and in the last post i was talking about me specifically not saying thats for everyone--its spoken to a specific spirit to a specific church-- and not to argue but the holy spirit assures me of which hate it means. and i agee some context but not this one

SweetSomber
May 29th 2008, 06:19 AM
Hebrews 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."

Before I comment on these verses, I shall add some light to the topic by adding a few more verses from later in the chapter:

Hebrews 6:9-11, 17-19 "But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end...
Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.
This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,"

Now, by "hope," the Bible does not mean a wish or desire, like we often use the word today, but rather certain knowledge and faith.
Psalm 119:114
"You are my hiding place and my shield; I hope in Your word."
Romans 15:12
'And again, Isaiah says:“ There shall be a root of Jesse;And He who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles,In Him the Gentiles shall hope.”'
1 Corinthians 15:19
"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable."

So then, Hebrews six starts with a hypothetical situation, of a christian falling away permentantly. It goes on to say that those things will not happen, that he is confident of better things for all those who have salvation, and why? Because we are all so faithful? No, because of God, because God is not unjust. Because of God, we have hope, and since He has given us his word, which cannot be false, we have an anchor and strong confidence of salvation. Given that confidence that we have, we should each show dilligence in works and labors of love. In this way, the verses, when taken out of context, may seem to say that falling away forever is possible, but when understood in the context of the entire chapter, indicate that those who in Christ have His word of promise as an anchor for the soul.
["For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day." (2 Timothy 1:12b)]
Nowhere do the verses state that a christian is able to "fall away" or that God's promise of eternal security will be broken or taken away.

fewarechosen
May 29th 2008, 01:48 PM
7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

the earth that drank the rain is the people who get the holy spirit

threebigrocks
May 29th 2008, 02:25 PM
Who ULTIMATELY works these things?

For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Phil 2:13 NKJV

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:13 NKJV

His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 2 Pet 1:3 NIV

So of course these verses are true, but God has given us His Spirit that we would do the works of God - you are basically saying that if the Spirit is not enough but we need works as well, then we are justified by works and that is another gospel.

Works is a product of the Spirit who lives within us. I do absolutely nothing except come to the knowledge that I, in the flesh and thus sinful have gone against a just and Holy God. The reason I can is all because of Christ and the cross and the Spirit. I do not save myself in any way, shape or form, period. All glory to Him!

However, until I am taken out of this world I'm still in the flesh. Where flesh is, sin is. Where sin exists there is always the opportunity to have a wedge placed between us and God. We are by nature wicked and that does not pass until the flesh dies. Paul wrestled with his flesh, making it submit to the Spirit. That which he did want to do was difficult, and that which he did not want to do came so easy. It's a constant thing that we must be aware of, and choose the strength of the Spirit over the power of the flesh. There is a reason we are warned in scripture, and why so many times Paul chastised the churches. Glatia is a good example. ;)

There is a reason why we cannot be present with the Lord in this flesh we have now. It's corrupt. Dead men don't sin.

9Marksfan
May 29th 2008, 04:26 PM
Works is a product of the Spirit who lives within us. I do absolutely nothing except come to the knowledge that I, in the flesh and thus sinful have gone against a just and Holy God. The reason I can is all because of Christ and the cross and the Spirit. I do not save myself in any way, shape or form, period. All glory to Him!

However, until I am taken out of this world I'm still in the flesh. Where flesh is, sin is. Where sin exists there is always the opportunity to have a wedge placed between us and God. We are by nature wicked and that does not pass until the flesh dies. Paul wrestled with his flesh, making it submit to the Spirit. That which he did want to do was difficult, and that which he did not want to do came so easy. It's a constant thing that we must be aware of, and choose the strength of the Spirit over the power of the flesh. There is a reason we are warned in scripture, and why so many times Paul chastised the churches. Glatia is a good example. ;)

There is a reason why we cannot be present with the Lord in this flesh we have now. It's corrupt. Dead men don't sin.

I completely agree with what you say - but because the Spirit is AT WORK in our lives and He WILL produce these good works - surely the Spirit is enough - because His presence is the seal of our belonging to Christ - no?

9Marksfan
May 29th 2008, 04:30 PM
1 well on the first point we will have to disagree. how could one be kept if it was never his. i cant keep anything that isnt mine. he would have never said but if that was the case

Sorry, but we have to look at the context and the grammar - it is just as reasonable (and makes more sense) to say that he kept all the disciples except Judas, who He didn't keep at all because he hadn't been given to Him by the Father - because he was the son of perdition.


2 i have full assurance if i abide in what he taught me and endure till the end i will be saved (and of course thats after receiving the holy spirit) but i never assume i wont stray i could denounce christ at anytime, i just pray that i dont.

So do you belkieve that you CAN have assurance here and now if you are
walking in obedience?


3 and in the last post i was talking about me specifically not saying thats for everyone--its spoken to a specific spirit to a specific church-- and not to argue but the holy spirit assures me of which hate it means. and i agee some context but not this one

I agree too that "hate" in relation to the deeds of the Nicolaitans DOES mean "despise" etc - but what about Lk 14? THAT'S the point I was trying to make.

threebigrocks
May 29th 2008, 04:47 PM
I completely agree with what you say - but because the Spirit is AT WORK in our lives and He WILL produce these good works - surely the Spirit is enough - because His presence is the seal of our belonging to Christ - no?

So long as we remain walking out our faith in the way He laid out - yes we are sealed. If we turn from the path of His righteousness we are no longer on that path and must return to it. Just as satan cannot be divided neither can Christ. If we choose to obey the flesh instead of Christ - and I cannot fathom it myself - to the point of the Spirit removing Himself from us we can indeed loose our promise and never have our adoption complete.

We can return to the path and the faith so long as we get back on where we fell off.

fewarechosen
May 29th 2008, 04:49 PM
it is just as reasonable (and makes more sense)

perhaps to you - but i would have to disagree respectfully. it would have made more sense if he would have never brought up the son of perdition if that was the case --- if it is never yours , you cant lose it
can you lose a star ? of course not its not yours
but you can lose the house you own

on your second point what i stated was my assurance

and i know i am disobediant so i pray that god forgive me, but i never assume i know his judgment , i just know his promise.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned

as far as your last point well -- go into the other thread its best left in there, but i will be happy to discuss it in there with you

9Marksfan
May 29th 2008, 04:53 PM
So long as we remain walking out our faith in the way He laid out - yes we are sealed. If we turn from the path of His righteousness we are no longer on that path and must return to it. Just as satan cannot be divided neither can Christ. If we choose to obey the flesh instead of Christ - and I cannot fathom it myself - to the point of the Spirit removing Himself from us we can indeed loose our promise and never have our adoption complete.

We can return to the path and the faith so long as we get back on where we fell off.

Where does the NT tell us we can be "unsealed", "unborn again" and the Spirit removed form us?

ARCHER42
May 29th 2008, 05:10 PM
Not only do we 'know' our Assurance in Him .. but we will 'know' our Election as well.... we are 'adopted' .. we know that by the Holy Ghost and His seal..... for He dwells within believers...

fewarechosen
May 29th 2008, 05:17 PM
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off

notice he is saying those who are already grafted in -- he doesnt say hey no worries your grafted in dont take heed.

OTHERWISE THOU SHALT BE CUT OFF-- i cant make it any more clear than scripture

i FEAR my lord - for he does what he wants

high minded -- is those who say hurrray im saved , i have the holy spirit , im grafted in i cant fall away

PartisanOfChrist
May 29th 2008, 05:18 PM
I apologize, but I read Your post, and skipped all of the replies, and I will go back to them later,


But I am sorry, because the passage speaks to Me, in the context of My perspective, ----and it clearly states that "It is impossible to renew them again to repentance,"


because they already know/knew the truth, and if having rejected the truth of Heavenly gifts, the Word of God, and powers, of God, etc..,

to the extent they have let themselves fall away from "A Truth,"

Then They must repent and return of their own conviction!!!!!!!!!!!!

True God will chastise them, and provide oportunity for them to return, to the truth(s) they have turned their backs upon,

But God will not Re-Crucify Christ, and therefore wash away their willfull turning away from God on some point(s), involving fundamental truths of God,

which are given us, for the sake of helping the lost world, as we are already saved,

and what right do we have, to turn our backs upon helping the lost to seek salvation???????????????????????????

It is a high crime indeed to do so, and therefore one can be given over to the fires of Chastisement, etc..,

But they must repent of their falling away ----and they must seek God's help and fogivness on this,

and not expect God to rescue them, if they do not wish to repent from turning away from God!!!!!!!!!!


And it is quite a stretch, in light of other scripture, to automaticaly draw the conclusions many do, as to loosing ones salvation,

( which is another debate ) But again, I see the great lossess, and being torn up because of them, given in a coded kind of way ----so the lost can not try to justify themselves, and the saved can not excuse themselves, if they need to be torn up/chastised, until they repent.

Language, no matter how specific, is still ambigious. And one can allways object, with a "yea but what if???,"

So God is allways obligated, out of Holiness, and Perfection, etc.., to make sure just enough 'Ambiguity' is used, ---so several passages, sometimes need to be crossreferenced, to see if one seeks out of pride or true faith --the answers God intends,


And therefore we, like Jacob, are given to have to wretlse with God, in our case thru difficult Bible passages -----and we must wrestle a truth, that was not intended for the lost to say, but yea it says this and it says that,


And therefore, God needs, by necesity of the human condition, to apear to be quite harsh in places ( such as the condemnations in the 7 church letters of Revelation -----because not all who find themselves in those churches/and or states/circumstances/ or conditions are saved,


and if they are not all truly saved, nor are they therefore all truly lost, who are adressed in those 7 church letters, the warnings need to seem to be quite harsh,

because 1)Wrath, and 2)Chastisement, both are harsh, and can hurt realy badly -----but the promises, and warnings have to be neutral enough for the lost and saved alike,


And therefore I allways understand difficult passages within the context, of justifiable, plausable, and righteous deniability,


because no one is going to out quote God, as an excuse ----because we are all without excuse,


and therefore, when we walk away from Mercy, and Grace, sometimes, we need to walk back and repent, while the Chastising Fires of God, are flaming our backsides ( while put lightly, is not meant to be trivial, or funny ),


And sometimes, we need to say to our Father, we are sorry for being a spoiled brat, who in our own greed, and sensualities, needed to reinterprate truth, in light of the needs of our own sin, rather than in truth for truth sake.

So I am sorry, but I am jaded against, thinking that just because a passage is meant to be a little difficult to wrestle with, that, that always means the worst!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God Bless,

Mike.

seamus414
May 29th 2008, 05:31 PM
In other words, he thinks that you can truly have salvation and can truly lose it. So, God either breaks His promises deliberately and can't be trusted (Jn 10:28-30) or can't keep His promises and shouldn't be worshipped as Almighty, 'cos WE'RE stronger than Him! :B

I do not how God breaks his promises if someone were to fall away from the faith. I do not see any promise being made to us that we will not fall away nor do I see a promise that God will stop us from falling away if we chose to do so.

seamus414
May 29th 2008, 05:37 PM
again mark we might totally agree lol

i used holy spirit just meaning its whatt gods sends and marks us with so we know.

---- now do you think its possible for someone to recieve the holy spirit then commit such sin that there will be no place found for him in heaven ?

now as far as truly saved --someone who is truly saved will never fall away, but are you saying that recieving the holy spirit makes one truly saved ?


The Holy Spirit is a him not a what.

As far as I believe, someone can be saved and, though his own action, fall out of the state of grace and lose his salvation.

fewarechosen
May 29th 2008, 05:40 PM
lol yes please lets get into debates over little words --

him doesnt even cover it -- he is I AM

9Marksfan
May 29th 2008, 05:47 PM
it is just as reasonable (and makes more sense)

perhaps to you - but i would have to disagree respectfully. it would have made more sense if he would have never brought up the son of perdition if that was the case ---

No - you are imposing your doctrine on the text - your doctrine contradicts many other scriptures.


if it is never yours , you cant lose it
can you lose a star ? of course not its not yours
but you can lose the house you own

That is an interesting take on why he is called the son of perdition - I see your point - but we are all BORN lost - and need to be found by God! Did we have something we lost? or did ADAM have something HE lost - and we inherited his "lostness"?


on your second point what i stated was my assurance

and i know i am disobediant so i pray that god forgive me, but i never assume i know his judgment , i just know his promise.

Aren't we ALL disobedient to some extent? Only Jesus was perfectly obedient - how do you think it is that the writer of Hebrews encourages us to HAVE full assurance of faith, if we aren't perfectly obedient here and now?


24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James is talking about being justified before men - the reality of our justification by God (which is by grace alone through faith alone) has to be seen by the works it produces.


37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned

Justified can also mean "shown to be right" - the James passage and that one from the gospels bear that meaning - as in "wisdom is justified of all her children".


as far as your last point well -- go into the other thread its best left in there, but i will be happy to discuss it in there with you

Woops! Sorry! Thought it was this thread - er, what WAS the other one?!?! :hmm:

seamus414
May 29th 2008, 05:50 PM
\
Where does the NT tell us we can be "unsealed", "unborn again" and the Spirit removed form us?

John 15 - a person who is saved is a branch off of the vine (i.e.: Christ) however the branch can be severed and lose one's salvation.

Rev. 22 - someone who has a share in the Tree of Life is saved. However God makes clear that one's share in the Tree of Life can be taken away, thereby causing that person to lose his salvation.

threebigrocks
May 29th 2008, 05:51 PM
Where does the NT tell us we can be "unsealed", "unborn again" and the Spirit removed form us?

2 Timothy



3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.



Many, many verses speak about the turning from truth. If the truth is not in you,

John 8


43"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45"But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.



Flesh wins out, they served the flesh not the new man in whom the Spirit dwells. If you follow the flesh, you cannot be in communion with the Spirit.

John 14


16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. 18"I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.


Flesh is of the world. Those who have the Spirit of truth is contrary to the flesh. You cannot become complacent and turn to the flesh because the flesh does not have communion with the Spirit. Light and darkness have no comunion.

Galatians 2


4But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.

5But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you. 6But from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)--well, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me.


We are not to be in subjection to anything but the truth, or the gospel does not remain with us.

9Marksfan
May 29th 2008, 05:53 PM
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off

notice he is saying those who are already grafted in -- he doesnt say hey no worries your grafted in dont take heed.

OTHERWISE THOU SHALT BE CUT OFF-- i cant make it any more clear than scripture

i FEAR my lord - for he does what he wants

high minded -- is those who say hurrray im saved , i have the holy spirit , im grafted in i cant fall away

I pretty well agree with all of this (where have I heard that before on this thread?!?! :lol:) but Paul is warning all his readers - all professing Christians - he knew that there were make-believers as well as true believers in all the visible churches - it's always been that way and always will - what he is saying is that genuine saving faith will endure - fake faith won't - but there is a responsibility on us to endure, so we're warned of the consequences of not doing so! The LORD means to keep all of us on our toes, because we're ALL prone to the complacent attitude you mention - and we're ALL capable of gross self-delusion, especially in the spiritual realm.....

9Marksfan
May 29th 2008, 05:55 PM
I do not how God breaks his promises if someone were to fall away from the faith. I do not see any promise being made to us that we will not fall away nor do I see a promise that God will stop us from falling away if we chose to do so.

Did you read the promise in Jn 10? THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH! So if we fall away and are lost, God has allowed us out of His hand and has broken a promise. There are also plenty of promises in John's gospel and the epistles that state that we WILL be kept to the end by God Himself!

9Marksfan
May 29th 2008, 06:02 PM
\

John 15 - a person who is saved is a branch off of the vine (i.e.: Christ) however the branch can be severed and lose one's salvation.

When we look at what Paul says in Rom 11 about the unbelieving branches being cut off, isn't Jesus speaking about the unbelieving Jews who were in covenant with Him (or at least thoguht they were)? Christ had far more to do with the Old Covenant than we realise. As far as Gentiles go, I believe it is speaking of being "in Christ" as being in the visible church.


Rev. 22 - someone who has a share in the Tree of Life is saved.

Might it not be what is freely offered to all, if only they were to believe? it is the POTENTIAL benefit that is taken away, because of their unbelief.


However God makes clear that one's share in the Tree of Life can be taken away, thereby causing that person to lose his salvation.

See above. While your argument is well made, it contradicts other scriptures.

seamus414
May 29th 2008, 06:03 PM
Did you read the promise in Jn 10? THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH! So if we fall away and are lost, God has allowed us out of His hand and has broken a promise. There are also plenty of promises in John's gospel and the epistles that state that we WILL be kept to the end by God Himself!

I think you are misreading the passage and applying a meaning to it that was never intended.

Let's look at it:

Jesus says "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish..."

If someone has been given eternal life, it stands to reason he will never perish as that is the defintion of eternal life. However, that does not mean that the gift if eternal life, causing one not to perish, can never be lost by the person who received it.

Jesus goes on to say: "no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."

That is true, we are safe in the Father's hand from outside forces that may wish to remove (i.e.: snatch) us from it. However, that does not mean we cannot, but our own volition, elect to leave the Father's hand. Think of it this way: The CHurch (us as Christians) is the bride of Christ. In that marriage relationship, Jesus will never divorce us (which is the promise being made in John 10), but that does not mean we can never divorce him.

seamus414
May 29th 2008, 06:12 PM
RESPONSE TO 9Marksfan
When we look at what Paul says in Rom 11 about the unbelieving branches being cut off, isn't Jesus speaking about the unbelieving Jews who were in covenant with Him (or at least thoguht they were)? Christ had far more to do with the Old Covenant than we realise. As far as Gentiles go, I believe it is speaking of being "in Christ" as being in the visible church.

There is nothing contextual to suggest he is speaking about unbeleiving Jews. There is also nothing contextual to suggest applying Romans 11 to this passage in either John or Romans. If I am incorrect, please identify where and what in the passage leads you to draw these conclusions. In fact he is speaking ONLY to the APostles here and giving them instructions as to what to do when the Holy Spirit comes.

My point is bolstered in this passage by the fact that Jesus says "Remain in me and I will remain in you" - remain is a word that is contining not static. If what you believe is consistent with JEsus' teachings Jesus would have said "be in me and I will be in you" - a one time static condition. No, instead Jesus exorts us to "remain" which is a constant effort. Further, he states that his own remaining in us is contingent upon us remianing in him. It is a constant and ongoing process and if we cease to remain in him he will cease to remain in us. Indeed, Jesus goes on to say that those who do not remain are those who are cut off. Those who remain are already in Christ (and, therefore, cannot be unbelieving Jews as you surmised) but believers who then discontinue remaining which leads Christ to not remain in us.

Might it not be what is freely offered to all, if only they were to believe? it is the POTENTIAL benefit that is taken away, because of their unbelief.

No, the text does not suggest any of that. The text is clear that the person from whom the share is taken is someone who already had a share to begin with.

See above. While your argument is well made, it contradicts other scriptures.

I have yet to see any.

fewarechosen
May 29th 2008, 06:15 PM
well 9mark we have a little bit of a difference on that then.

to be grafted in means you are his you are part of the tree you have the holy spirit.

then he says otherwise thou shalt be cut off.

hes not exagerating for dramatic affect to scare us , hes telling the truth.

but i do hope we both pray on this - for our reasoning should be one.

and i have to admit i do like your spirit :)

seamus414
May 29th 2008, 06:30 PM
I think it is significant that the first time the concept of "once saved always saved" was introduced was by John Calvin in the 1500's. If "once saved always saved" is correct, you are basically saying that Christians for 1500 years believed the wrong thing and did not understand the Scriptures properly until someone in the 1500's finally cleared the situation up.

Allow me to show you some ancient examples of what Christians believed in the earliest of centuries:

"Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. But you shall assemble together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made complete in the last time" (Didache 16 [A.D. 70]).

"To Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ [Phil. 2:10–11] to him, and that he should execute just judgment towards all. . . . The ungodly and unrighteous and wicked and profane among men [shall go] into everlasting fire; but [he] may, in the exercise of his grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept his commandments, and have persevered in his love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their penance, and may surround them with everlasting glory" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

9Marksfan
May 29th 2008, 09:34 PM
2 Timothy



Many, many verses speak about the turning from truth. If the truth is not in you,

But it is entirely possible to hold to a set of evangelical beliefs and yet be unregenerate - remember "even the demons believe" - so turning away from the truth does not equal losing one's salvation. There are MILLIONS who profess but fon't POSSESS.


John 8


Flesh wins out, they served the flesh not the new man in whom the Spirit dwells. If you follow the flesh, you cannot be in communion with the Spirit.

Agreed - but Jesus is speaking to a mixed bunch of people - the elect would walk in the Spirit - the false folk would indulge the desires of the flesh, as they were never regenerate.


John 14


Flesh is of the world. Those who have the Spirit of truth is contrary to the flesh. You cannot become complacent and turn to the flesh because the flesh does not have communion with the Spirit. Light and darkness have no comunion.
Amen!


Galatians 2


We are not to be in subjection to anything but the truth, or the gospel does not remain with us.

True believers will perseverfe in the faith ultimately, even if they may lapse temporarily - those who apostasize were never saved in the first place. It's clear that Paul is treating the Galatians as truly saved but as having temporarily gone off the rails. Can any of us say we have NEVER doen that? Either in our beliefs or our walk?

9Marksfan
May 29th 2008, 09:41 PM
I think you are misreading the passage and applying a meaning to it that was never intended.

Let's look at it:

Jesus says "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish..."

If someone has been given eternal life, it stands to reason he will never perish as that is the defintion of eternal life.

If that were the only reason, then Jesus would not have said "and" - the "and" answers your question! I can think of few passages in Scripture that teach a doctrine more clearly than this one - time and time again, Jesus spells out that those who are truly His sheep (and they are those who hear Him, know Him and follow Him - no OSAS here!) WILL NEVER PERISH!


However, that does not mean that the gift if eternal life, causing one not to perish, can never be lost by the person who received it.

So God doesn't keep us safe from ourselves? He leaves us to our own devices?


Jesus goes on to say: "no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."

That is true, we are safe in the Father's hand from outside forces that may wish to remove (i.e.: snatch) us from it. However, that does not mean we cannot, but our own volition, elect to leave the Father's hand.

That really is a very strange and strained interpretation of the text - why should it only be OUTSIDE forces that we are protected from? It would seem mighty strange for God to have gone to the lengths He has done to secure our eternal salvation - and yet leave this "Achiiles' heel" exposed so that we can "trump" all His efforts to preserve us by our sovereig "free will"...


Think of it this way: The CHurch (us as Christians) is the bride of Christ. In that marriage relationship, Jesus will never divorce us (which is the promise being made in John 10), but that does not mean we can never divorce him.

But would He LET us do that? Are you really saying that it's more important for God to "respect" our so-called "right to choose" than to ensure that His great plan of salvation is actually completed?

seamus414
May 29th 2008, 09:53 PM
True believers will perseverfe in the faith ultimately, even if they may lapse temporarily - those who apostasize were never saved in the first place. It's clear that Paul is treating the Galatians as truly saved but as having temporarily gone off the rails. Can any of us say we have NEVER doen that? Either in our beliefs or our walk?

I disagree with your fist sentence (as you can tell from my previous posts which I will not reiterate here). Allow me to add here, however, that, rather ironically, your use of the term "apostasize" defies the very point you are trying to make. Someone cannot be apostate who was never saved to begin with. The very definition of apostate is someone who was a believer and was saved who then forsook their faith.

(ASIDE: Of course, this creates difficult communication as the definition of terms becomes confused. From a traditional Christian point of view, anyone who is baptised is a Christian, but they would not be saved if apostate (i.e.: out of the state of grace). Many modern Christians use the term "Christian" to mean someone who is within the state of grace and an observant/practicing Christian. Historically, this is not the way the terms were used.)

seamus414
May 29th 2008, 09:58 PM
If that were the only reason, then Jesus would not have said "and" - the "and" answers your question! I can think of few passages in Scripture that teach a doctrine more clearly than this one - time and time again, Jesus spells out that those who are truly His sheep (and they are those who hear Him, know Him and follow Him - no OSAS here!) WILL NEVER PERISH!



So God doesn't keep us safe from ourselves? He leaves us to our own devices?



That really is a very strange and strained interpretation of the text - why should it only be OUTSIDE forces that we are protected from? It would seem mighty strange for God to have gone to the lengths He has done to secure our eternal salvation - and yet leave this "Achiiles' heel" exposed so that we can "trump" all His efforts to preserve us by our sovereig "free will"...



But would He LET us do that? Are you really saying that it's more important for God to "respect" our so-called "right to choose" than to ensure that His great plan of salvation is actually completed?


I do not see why a person's free will and God's "great plan of salvation" are mutually exclusive.

We, as being in God's own image, have the free will to accept or reject God's grace. I will grant you that (1) it is by God's grace we are saved; and, (2) by God's grace we are able to accept God's grace. You ask if he leaves us to our own devices. God's grace is always there, however, the fact is, ultimately, humans have the option, the choice, to accept or reject the grace that is being freely offered. Adam and Eve were left to their "own devices" because God respects his creation. He does not want automatons, he wants people to freely chose to love him by their own free will.

fewarechosen
May 29th 2008, 10:05 PM
hmm marks 9

its all about free will

god could have just locked up the tree that adam and eve ate from

but he let us


he could have not sent christ and not preached the bible

and just saved those who where chosen.
i mean really why send christ if his message really doesnt matter
he sent christ because we are free to choose.
he sent christ to SHOW US HOW TO USE FREE WILL

if it wasnt free will, the bible would read
if your saved your saved and if your not your not

just because god knows who his chosen doesnt mean we know

the jews where christ chosen and had full knowledge of it but he cut them off the tree.
as he can do with us.

you say some scriptures are talking to unbelievers and not true christians
why would christ deliver a message to people he knew wouldnt listen ?
why would he deliver a message to people that no matter what are saved ?


love your neighbor as yourself -- but only if you want to cause your saved anyway

love god with all your heart- but only if you want to your saved

dont murder --- ah why not your saved

9Marksfan
May 29th 2008, 10:18 PM
RESPONSE TO 9Marksfan
When we look at what Paul says in Rom 11 about the unbelieving branches being cut off, isn't Jesus speaking about the unbelieving Jews who were in covenant with Him (or at least thoguht they were)? Christ had far more to do with the Old Covenant than we realise. As far as Gentiles go, I believe it is speaking of being "in Christ" as being in the visible church.

There is nothing contextual to suggest he is speaking about unbeleiving Jews. There is also nothing contextual to suggest applying Romans 11 to this passage in either John or Romans. If I am incorrect, please identify where and what in the passage leads you to draw these conclusions. In fact he is speaking ONLY to the APostles here and giving them instructions as to what to do when the Holy Spirit comes.

So none of John 15 applies to us then? Hardly!

Here's the passage in Romans I was thinking of:-

And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Rom 11:17-24 NKJV

Although the image here is of olive trees, not a vine, the parallels are striking with Johhn 15 - especially the need to abide/continue in God's goodness, which appears in both passages. If there is no abiding/continuing, then we will be cut off.


My point is bolstered in this passage by the fact that Jesus says "Remain in me and I will remain in you" - remain is a word that is contining not static. If what you believe is consistent with JEsus' teachings Jesus would have said "be in me and I will be in you" - a one time static condition. No, instead Jesus exorts us to "remain" which is a constant effort.

Effort?


Further, he states that his own remaining in us is contingent upon us remianing in him.

I don't see that at all - it's two sides of the same coin He's talking about - it's actually a promise.


It is a constant and ongoing process and if we cease to remain in him he will cease to remain in us.

Who do you think those are who do not remain in Him ans why do you think they wouldn't want to?


Indeed, Jesus goes on to say that those who do not remain are those who are cut off. Those who remain are already in Christ (and, therefore, cannot be unbelieving Jews as you surmised) but believers who then discontinue remaining which leads Christ to not remain in us.

Jesus is making a distinction between those in Him who abide and those in Him who don't. I think we're pressing the analogy way too far if we say they were all saved. "In Me" here could refer to visible members - or baptised persons - or those who had attended church regularly and appeared to be "in Christ". That way, it's clear that the CRUCIAL test is not being "in Christ" but ABIDING. Now, the "in Me" here cannot be the same as the use of "in Christ" that Paul uses, because he uses it to indicate our security, time and time again. Jesus' analogy shows that the CRUCIAL factor is not being "in Him" but "ABIDING in Him".....

Might it not be what is freely offered to all, if only they were to believe? it is the POTENTIAL benefit that is taken away, because of their unbelief.


No, the text does not suggest any of that. The text is clear that the person from whom the share is taken is someone who already had a share to begin with.

I know you'd like it to mean that, because it fits your theology, but in fact it actually teaches that your right to share is forfeited if you do not persevere to the end - I know I am perhaps going against some mainstream Reformned thought here, but I truly believe that, were everyone to believe, then there would be a share for everyone - Christ's death was sufficient to save all of humanity, if they were to believe it. The acid test, so to speak, is if you continue faithful to the end - if not (by eg taking away from the word of God and watering it down), the the share you WOULD have got is taken away - but you only got it if you made it to the end!


See above. While your argument is well made, it contradicts other scriptures.

I have yet to see any.

Well, apart from the Jn 10 passage, there's also Rom 8:28-39, 1 Cor 1:4-9 and 1 Thess 5:23-24 for a start. Plenty of passages in John too.

9Marksfan
May 29th 2008, 10:21 PM
well 9mark we have a little bit of a difference on that then.

to be grafted in means you are his you are part of the tree you have the holy spirit.

then he says otherwise thou shalt be cut off.

hes not exagerating for dramatic affect to scare us , hes telling the truth.

but i do hope we both pray on this - for our reasoning should be one.

and i have to admit i do like your spirit :)

I believe the whole parable of the Vine and the Branches is about the visible church - every member is "in Christ" yet only the elect actually abide in Him - and continue to do so, bearing fruit that will last. The rest will ultimately not abide - because they do not treasure Christ above all.

PS Thanks for the compliemnt - we should always debate these issues in a civilised way. You guys are arguing your case as well as I have ever seen and I accept that you have some Scriptures that seem to teach what you believe - but I believe that that is not consistent with the nature of the covenant-making and covenant-keeping God of the bible and that there must therefore be another interpretation for them, so that they harmonise with the passages that clearly teach that God will complete that which concerns us - ie He will NEVER let us go!

Partaker of Christ
May 29th 2008, 10:30 PM
I think you are misreading the passage and applying a meaning to it that was never intended.

Let's look at it:

Jesus says "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish..."

If someone has been given eternal life, it stands to reason he will never perish as that is the defintion of eternal life. However, that does not mean that the gift if eternal life, causing one not to perish, can never be lost by the person who received it.

Jesus goes on to say: "no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."

That is true, we are safe in the Father's hand from outside forces that may wish to remove (i.e.: snatch) us from it. However, that does not mean we cannot, but our own volition, elect to leave the Father's hand. Think of it this way: The CHurch (us as Christians) is the bride of Christ. In that marriage relationship, Jesus will never divorce us (which is the promise being made in John 10), but that does not mean we can never divorce him.

What is this so called none scriptural 'our volition' we suppose to have, that can undo God's work and volition.

When it says 'no man can' that also means us. Why because we are also man.

Do you realise, then when we accept that Christ has paid a price, we then totally belong to Him? We are NOT our own.

With respect, I believe this doctrine of 'free will' is from the pit.
We may by His grace have a limited will, but we will not usurp His Authority. The whole of all creation, will one day come and bow the knee before Him, the True and Living God, the Almighty.

Can this volition (free will) find the cost to pay back Christ, and buy our freedom from Him?

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

By the Grace and mercy of God, there is 'A DAY' when we get to choose, whom we will serve. If we reject Him on that day, then another day will come. A great and terrible day. Without sounding flippant, it will be 'pay day', for the wages of sin is death.

Before that 'Day' we served sin, self, flesh, the world. As slaves, we had no choice. Sin was our master, and the wages for sin is death. We were 'owned' by sin until we paid the price. We had no legal right or 'free will' choice to leave sin. No matter what we like or dislike, believe or disbelieve, what we do or don't do, that price is demanded by law, and it will be paid.

Once that price has been paid, there is nothing more to pay. Our old master, cannot legally demand any more payment, for the price was paid in full. We are legally still slaves, but we now have a new Master.

I don't find anywhere in scripture, were the Lord (our new Master) grants us a day, were we can freely choose to go back to the old master.
The old master may want to deceive us, into believing that we still owe him, but he has no legal ground to his claim.

Do we believe that the whole of the price was paid in full?

Well if not, then the Lord has left us having two masters.
The Lord Himself told us, we cannot serve two masters. The old master would have as much legal rights over us, as our new Master

The story of the Samaritan in Luke 10, is a most beautiful picture of what salvation is.

9Marksfan
May 29th 2008, 10:41 PM
I think it is significant that the first time the concept of "once saved always saved" was introduced was by John Calvin in the 1500's. If "once saved always saved" is correct, you are basically saying that Christians for 1500 years believed the wrong thing and did not understand the Scriptures properly until someone in the 1500's finally cleared the situation up.

Allow me to show you some ancient examples of what Christians believed in the earliest of centuries:

"Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. But you shall assemble together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made complete in the last time" (Didache 16 [A.D. 70]).

"To Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ [Phil. 2:10–11] to him, and that he should execute just judgment towards all. . . . The ungodly and unrighteous and wicked and profane among men [shall go] into everlasting fire; but [he] may, in the exercise of his grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept his commandments, and have persevered in his love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their penance, and may surround them with everlasting glory" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

No - Augustine taught perseverance of the saints (which is what the above two quotes teach too!):-

"Those, then, are elected, as I have often said, who are called according to God's purpose, who also are predestined and foreknown. If any one of these perishes, God is mistaken; but none of them perishes, for God is not mistaken. If any one of them perishes, God is overcome by human sin; but none of them perishes, because God is overcome by nothing." (On Rebuke and Grace, 14[A.D. 426-7]

9Marksfan
May 29th 2008, 10:48 PM
I disagree with your fist sentence (as you can tell from my previous posts which I will not reiterate here). Allow me to add here, however, that, rather ironically, your use of the term "apostasize" defies the very point you are trying to make. Someone cannot be apostate who was never saved to begin with. The very definition of apostate is someone who was a believer and was saved who then forsook their faith.

But there are different kinds of faith - there's was only temporary and the apostasy is giving up adherence to THE faith - it is entirely possible for a person to have an intellectual grasp of "the faith" and adhere to it for many years - and then give it all up for something else - such a person was never saved in the first place - 1 Jn 2:19, 3:6.


(ASIDE: Of course, this creates difficult communication as the definition of terms becomes confused. From a traditional Christian point of view, anyone who is baptised is a Christian, but they would not be saved if apostate (i.e.: out of the state of grace). Many modern Christians use the term "Christian" to mean someone who is within the state of grace and an observant/practicing Christian. Historically, this is not the way the terms were used.)

I agree - what is your definition of "Christian"?

Partaker of Christ
May 29th 2008, 10:50 PM
I do not see why a person's free will and God's "great plan of salvation" are mutually exclusive.

We, as being in God's own image, have the free will to accept or reject God's grace. I will grant you that (1) it is by God's grace we are saved; and, (2) by God's grace we are able to accept God's grace. You ask if he leaves us to our own devices. God's grace is always there, however, the fact is, ultimately, humans have the option, the choice, to accept or reject the grace that is being freely offered. Adam and Eve were left to their "own devices" because God respects his creation. He does not want automatons, he wants people to freely chose to love him by their own free will.

Jesus said that we cannot serve two masters.
because (a) we will hate one, and (b) we will love the other, or (c) we will hold to the one, and (d) despise the other.

Only if we have hated, and despised one master, will we love and hold to the other.

When we have hated and despised the old master, then the ground is good, and will bare much fruit. It will be the fruit out of our love for the Master.

9Marksfan
May 29th 2008, 11:07 PM
I do not see why a person's free will and God's "great plan of salvation" are mutually exclusive.

But if it's all about God respecting a person's will, then NATURALLY, His great plan of salvation is frustrated!


We, as being in God's own image, have the free will to accept or reject God's grace.

No - that is Pelagianism. We, as fallen, depraved creatures, cannot and will not accept God's grace unless He first renews our hearts, opens our eyes and unstops our ears - for our hearts are by nature cold, dead and unresponsive towards him and we are spiritually blind and deaf and incapable of overcoming these problems ourselves.


I will grant you that (1) it is by God's grace we are saved; and, (2) by God's grace we are able to accept God's grace.

That is semi-Pelagianism.


You ask if he leaves us to our own devices. God's grace is always there, however, the fact is, ultimately, humans have the option, the choice, to accept or reject the grace that is being freely offered.

You are making out that God's grace is passive, when it is active.


Adam and Eve were left to their "own devices" because God respects his creation.

But they fell and humanity was cursed - that changed EVERYTHING - they died spiritually and we are as a result born spiritually dead - we need to be made alive in Christ! And we can't bring that about by our choice - God must do it - THEN we have the freedom to choose - once He has made us willing in the day of His power!


He does not want automatons, he wants people to freely chose to love him by their own free will.

No - He knows we are dead in trespasses and sins and unresponsive to Him - if he did not take the initiative in regeneration , no one would be saved!

9Marksfan
May 29th 2008, 11:53 PM
hmm marks 9

its all about free will

No, it's all about God's glory and purpose.


god could have just locked up the tree that adam and eve ate from

but he let us

Yes, in order to show the riches of His grace in saving us through Christ - this could not have happened without the Fall.


he could have not sent christ and not preached the bible

and just saved those who where chosen.

But that would have diminished His glory and grace.


i mean really why send christ if his message really doesnt matter

Of course His message matters! That is how we are saved!


he sent christ because we are free to choose.
he sent christ to SHOW US HOW TO USE FREE WILL

He sent Christ because we WEREN'T FREE - it is Christ who MAKES US FREE - "If the Son shall set you free, you shall be free indeed"!


if it wasnt free will, the bible would read
if your saved your saved and if your not your not

No - God has chosen to use means to save us - and that means is the gospel.


just because god knows who his chosen doesnt mean we know

Agreed.


the jews where christ chosen and had full knowledge of it but he cut them off the tree.
as he can do with us.

They are not all Israel who are Israel - by implication, they are not all the church who are the church.


you say some scriptures are talking to unbelievers and not true christians

The visible church is a mixed body.


why would christ deliver a message to people he knew wouldnt listen ?

So that they would be without excuse on Judgement Day.


why would he deliver a message to people that no matter what are saved ?

They are only saved if they believe the message! The Bible does NOT teach automatic salvation - GOD USES MEANS!


love your neighbor as yourself -- but only if you want to cause your saved anyway

love god with all your heart- but only if you want to your saved

dont murder --- ah why not your saved

I'm not going to comment until you calm down......

merjorg
May 30th 2008, 12:10 AM
But there are different kinds of faith - there's was only temporary and the apostasy is giving up adherence to THE faith - it is entirely possible for a person to have an intellectual grasp of "the faith" and adhere to it for many years - and then give it all up for something else - such a person was never saved in the first place - 1 Jn 2:19, 3:6.

Marksfan, forgive me for jumping in here. There's been a lot going back and forth so maybe this has already been addressed or established in previous posts, but in Hebrews 6 it talks about people who have tasted the goodness of the word of God, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, tasted the Heavenly gift. It's not talking about people who just had an "intellectual grasp" of it. It's people who have partaken in it, been a part of it.

fewarechosen
May 30th 2008, 12:13 AM
gods chosen where with him since the foundation of the world.

so how is it that the message saved them ?

9Marksfan
May 30th 2008, 08:30 AM
Marksfan, forgive me for jumping in here. There's been a lot going back and forth so maybe this has already been addressed or established in previous posts, but in Hebrews 6 it talks about people who have tasted the goodness of the word of God, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, tasted the Heavenly gift. It's not talking about people who just had an "intellectual grasp" of it. It's people who have partaken in it, been a part of it.

I don't disagree - but Jesus Himself said that there are those who receive the word with JOY - yet they only believe for a while and then fall away, because they have NO ROOT. As I said earlier, one can come SO CLOSE and yet not be saved - it's like the blessings that are experienced by believers in the presence of God in worship/preaching/fellowship "rub off" on those who are interested and long for a change - yet never fully surrender to Christ, whatever they may accept intellectually or feel emotionally or even determine to change in their lives at a human "self-help" level.

9Marksfan
May 30th 2008, 08:36 AM
gods chosen where with him since the foundation of the world.

so how is it that the message saved them ?

That's the great mystery - they were as condemned as the rest of humanity until they believed - like the rest, they were "children of wrath" - only when they were justified by God - when they believed the gospel, were they saved through the message of Christ. Read Eph 2:1-10.

seamus414
May 30th 2008, 12:40 PM
Allow me to share the following:
In the case of John 10:28, Jesus says that no one will be able to take us away from God. The language is similar to Paul’s in Romans 8:39 when he says that nothing in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Both of these passages address the same fact that no one is capable of removing you from the grace of God. No one is capable of nullifying your salvation. It would be like saying that no one is capable of pulling you out of a car driving at eighty miles per hour. This does not mean that you are incapable of opening the door and jumping out. In the same way, John 10:28 does not mean that we are incapable of severing our relationship with God. Read on in John, and you’ll see why. Five chapters later in John’s Gospel, Christ tells the apostles at the Last Supper to remain in his love. He adds that if we keep his commandments we will remain in his love. But he who does not remain in his love is "cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned" (John 15:6). Now, if salvation were a done deal, why would Jesus feel the need to tell anyone to remain in his love? It would be like locking a person in a closet and telling them to remain there. If they are unable to leave, it is senseless to ask them to remain. Jesus told his disciples to remain in his love because just as we enter freely into a relationship with Christ, we are free to leave him. Scripture is overflowing with examples of this. In Romans 11:22, Paul says, "Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off." In Galatians 5:4, Paul says, "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." This verse implies that they were united with Christ and in grace before they fell. In 1 Corinthians 9:27, Paul again warns the Christians against being overconfident: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." This is not the language of "once saved always saved."

seamus414
May 30th 2008, 12:50 PM
[quote=9Marksfan;1654966][/color]

So none of John 15 applies to us then? Hardly!

Oh yes, it does appy to us; I never indicated otherwise. I was merely point out that you made the somewhat absurd suggesting that Jesus was addressing unbelieving Jews in John 15 when he was clearly speaking to believers, indeed his own Apostles!

Here's the passage in Romans I was thinking of:-

That Paul uses similar imagry does not, a priori mean he is discussing the same issue as Jesus in the same.

Although the image here is of olive trees, not a vine, the parallels are striking with Johhn 15 - especially the need to abide/continue in God's goodness, which appears in both passages. If there is no abiding/continuing, then we will be cut off.

You have made exactly my point: one can only abide/continue if we are in God's goodness (i.e.: saved). It is our responsibility to abide/continue. If we do not we will be removed from God's goodness (i.e.: unsaved).

Who do you think those are who do not remain in Him ans why do you think they wouldn't want to?

That is the eternal question isn't it? Why did Lucifer turn away? Adam? The demons? Why does anyone turn away once they know the truth? That is the mystery of sin.

Might it not be what is freely offered to all, if only they were to believe? it is the POTENTIAL benefit that is taken away, because of their unbelief.

This is a rather tortured view of the passage especially as nothing in it suggest anything "potential" but as a done deal. The plain meaning is clear.

I know you'd like it to mean that, because it fits your theology, but in fact it actually teaches that your right to share is forfeited if you do not persevere to the end... the the share you WOULD have got is taken away - but you only got it if you made it to the end!

That's exactly right. When one has a share one is saved. Without perserverance, one loses his share and is unsaved. Between this and your comment above, your own position seems to be a bit muddled as this is prescisely the point I am making

seamus414
May 30th 2008, 12:57 PM
RESPONSE TO 9Marksfan:But there are different kinds of faith - there's was only temporary and the apostasy is giving up adherence to THE faith - it is entirely possible for a person to have an intellectual grasp of "the faith" and adhere to it for many years - and then give it all up for something else - such a person was never saved in the first place - 1 Jn 2:19, 3:6.

I would say that your interpretation is rather tortured. There is nothing in the passage to suggest that the faith was temporary or only intellectual. However, even if I grant you that, my point remains unassailed. The person did have faith and was saved but lost it as he never developed his faith beyond something intellectual or shallow or whatever.

I agree - what is your definition of "Christian"?

Well I will use any definition that is consistent with the person with which I am speaking if only to make communication easier. However, in my personal thought process, a Christian is someone who has been baptised into the faith. If that person falls away they are still a Christian (i.e.: member of the Church) but they are apostate, and out of the state of grace and, therefore, ineligible to participate with the CHurch; in traditional language they become excommunicated. That person does not have to become "re-saved" to reenter the fellowship of the Church. That person must confess and repent of their sin(s) in order to be readmitted to participation with the faithful. An unbeliver (i.e.: non-Christian) cannot, by definition, be apostate or excommunicated as they never were part of the Church to begin with. Only someone who was in the Church be apostate/excommunicated from it.

seamus414
May 30th 2008, 01:22 PM
[quote=9Marksfan;1655006]But if it's all about God respecting a person's will, then NATURALLY, His great plan of salvation is frustrated!

God's plan is available for anyone with which to freely participate.

No - that is Pelagianism. We, as fallen, depraved creatures, cannot and will not accept God's grace unless He first renews our hearts, opens our eyes and unstops our ears - for our hearts are by nature cold, dead and unresponsive towards him and we are spiritually blind and deaf and incapable of overcoming these problems ourselves.

No, Pelagianism is the belief that humans have no original sin and can be saved through their own merit by good works and avoiding sin. I reject that as a heresey as has the Church as a whole. There is a difference between saying that one can choose or reject God's grace and saying some does not need God's grace to be saved.


You are making out that God's grace is passive, when it is active.

No. God's grace is active, certainly. My point is that, no matter how active, God's grace is resistable. Someone can decide to not heed the call of God's grace.

But they fell and humanity was cursed - that changed EVERYTHING - they died spiritually and we are as a result born spiritually dead - we need to be made alive in Christ! And we can't bring that about by our choice - God must do it - THEN we have the freedom to choose - once He has made us willing in the day of His power!

There is no biblical suggestion that I know of that, at the Fall, the free will we had to chose to follow God in the Garden was suddenly removed at expulsion from the Garden. God's grace is always attempting to turn us toward him but we always have the option to say "no" - and if we do say "yes" we always have the option to withdraw that "yes" during the course of one's life.

No - He knows we are dead in trespasses and sins and unresponsive to Him - if he did not take the initiative in regeneration , no one would be saved!

I agree in principle that we are dead in sin. I agree that it is by God's grace we are saved and only by God's grace that we can even make the choice to turn to God's will. However, that does not mean we HAVE to make the choice to follow God. Ultimately, we can reject the grace God gives us.

threebigrocks
May 30th 2008, 03:53 PM
But it is entirely possible to hold to a set of evangelical beliefs and yet be unregenerate - remember "even the demons believe" - so turning away from the truth does not equal losing one's salvation. There are MILLIONS who profess but fon't POSSESS.

Yep, agreed! But, we are speaking of those who honestly, truly believed - and fall from grace.



Agreed - but Jesus is speaking to a mixed bunch of people - the elect would walk in the Spirit - the false folk would indulge the desires of the flesh, as they were never regenerate.

And we can see that in our churches today. Again, we aren't speaking here of those who don't walk the talk.



Amen!

Can't argue lick on that!




True believers will perseverfe in the faith ultimately, even if they may lapse temporarily - those who apostasize were never saved in the first place. It's clear that Paul is treating the Galatians as truly saved but as having temporarily gone off the rails. Can any of us say we have NEVER doen that? Either in our beliefs or our walk?

We can stumble and return, but it's those who lay aside the new man they have walked the straight path in and exchanged it for the fleshy old man and it's fleshy comforts. Flesh wins out. We can be decieved, if we loose the strength of the Spirit and submit to the strength of the flesh. It depends on which one we feed.

What would happen if those Galatians who were off the rails never got back on track? What if the deception won? That is what we are speaking of here. If they were being treated by Paul as truly saved, which I also believe he is, what if they never returned to the new man?

SweetSomber
May 30th 2008, 08:31 PM
Responding to the beginning issue of this thread...

Hebrews 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."

Before I comment on these verses, I shall add some light to the topic by adding a few more verses from later in the chapter:

Hebrews 6:9-11, 17-19 "But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end...
Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.
This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,"

Now, by "hope," the Bible does not mean a wish or desire, like we often use the word today, but rather certain knowledge and faith.
Psalm 119:114
"You are my hiding place and my shield; I hope in Your word."
Romans 15:12
'And again, Isaiah says:“ There shall be a root of Jesse;And He who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles,In Him the Gentiles shall hope.”'
1 Corinthians 15:19
"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable."

So then, Hebrews six starts with a hypothetical situation, of a christian falling away permanently. It goes on to say that those things will not happen, that he is confident of better things for all those who have salvation, and why? Because we are all so faithful? No, because of God, because God is not unjust. Because of God, we have hope, and since He has given us his word, which cannot be false, we have an anchor and strong confidence of salvation. Given that confidence that we have, we should each show dilligence in works and labors of love. In this way, the verses, when taken out of context, may seem to say that falling away forever is possible, but when understood in the context of the entire chapter, indicate that those who in Christ have His word of promise as an anchor for the soul.
["For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day." (2 Timothy 1:12b)]
Nowhere do the verses state that a christian is able to "fall away" or that God's promise of eternal security will be broken or taken away.

9Marksfan
May 30th 2008, 09:50 PM
Allow me to share the following:
In the case of John 10:28, Jesus says that no one will be able to take us away from God. The language is similar to Paul’s in Romans 8:39 when he says that nothing in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Both of these passages address the same fact that no one is capable of removing you from the grace of God. No one is capable of nullifying your salvation. It would be like saying that no one is capable of pulling you out of a car driving at eighty miles per hour. This does not mean that you are incapable of opening the door and jumping out. In the same way, John 10:28 does not mean that we are incapable of severing our relationship with God. Read on in John, and you’ll see why. Five chapters later in John’s Gospel, Christ tells the apostles at the Last Supper to remain in his love. He adds that if we keep his commandments we will remain in his love. But he who does not remain in his love is "cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned" (John 15:6). Now, if salvation were a done deal, why would Jesus feel the need to tell anyone to remain in his love? It would be like locking a person in a closet and telling them to remain there. If they are unable to leave, it is senseless to ask them to remain. Jesus told his disciples to remain in his love because just as we enter freely into a relationship with Christ, we are free to leave him. Scripture is overflowing with examples of this. In Romans 11:22, Paul says, "Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off." In Galatians 5:4, Paul says, "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." This verse implies that they were united with Christ and in grace before they fell. In 1 Corinthians 9:27, Paul again warns the Christians against being overconfident: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." This is not the language of "once saved always saved."

Agreed - it is the language of perseverance - that is the other side of the coin of God's promise to keep His own - but His own must - and will (by His grace) persevere. Your exegesis of Jn 10 and Rom 8 really is imposing your Arminian theology on the text and inferring meaning that simply is not there. God is greater than all - even our hugely powerful (in your opinion) free will.....

Puddleglum
May 31st 2008, 05:50 AM
Agreed - it is the language of perseverance - that is the other side of the coin of God's promise to keep His own - but His own must - and will (by His grace) persevere. Your exegesis of Jn 10 and Rom 8 really is imposing your Arminian theology on the text and inferring meaning that simply is not there. God is greater than all - even our hugely powerful (in your opinion) free will.....

In my years aas a christian, I have both walked with the Lord and ran from Him. Im not sure if i know anything about anything. Except this...That in my darkest hours, He has been my light! Where my sin has ruled, His grace has shown me what sovereignty really is!

I rest on the fact that my salvation has zero, nada, zilch to do with me, and has everyhing to do with Jesus Christ. Is that lincence to sin? Only a fool would think so. Does that mean there is consiquences? You bet! and I have felt the full weight of them! Praise God who is faithful with His rod and His staff, that even in my wrong choices, He is faithful!

I am not a smart man. I am the least of you guys here on this board. You all know scripture so well and I so whole heartedly admire you for that! You guys are like the honor role, and Im the kid who gets by with a C average.

Often we look at the bible and think we have the answers! And oh what rich wisdom, the Word, our CHrist yields to us. Yet in all our human knowledge of the Word, I can help but reflect on what a person inpiration of man once said. Rich Mullins, a man who preached with his actions said, "we think we have the answers cause we have the bible." He went on to say, "the truth is, God didnt give us the bible so that we could say we have the answers." "He gave us the bible so that we would know that HE has the answers and were just guessing."

When I think of you fine folks who are in the "I can loose my salvation" camp. I think of strong warriors when you come to mind! You must be men/woman who are like Giddion! Stuffing wheat into the winepress! you are people of action. I depend on OSAS, becuase I am weak! I am often broken! I rely on a savior who knows this and knows me! I am like the cripple who couldnt make his way into the pool! Who blamed everyone else! And yet Jesus healed him anyway! What measure of faith did he show? He was broken and defeated. MOre times than i care to admit...that is me. But I know whom I hve believed, and am pursueded that He is able...to keep that which Ive commited unto Him!

I think of thomas. he got a bad rap because he was the doubter! I know this mind set...it describes me well. I see Thomas wrecked after the crucifixiton. Not just becuase Jesus died and the hope of our human desire for the messiah to kick some tail had died, but becuase he actually, sincerely loved Jesus. Why? i can almost hear Thomas saying, "He picked me!" "No had ever picked me for anything and He picked me." "what are we gonna do now?" "all is lost...all is lost." I personally believe is was great heart ache on Thomas's part that made him say "I wont believe until I see the scars oh HIs hands." And our Lord, our Master, OUr Christ was faithul and true to show Thomas that He was indeed who He said He was. The Ancient of Days, took time out to reassure His hurting friend.

I am not a Christian becuase I ran into Christ on the road to Damascus. I was not ever told to take up my mat an d walk. I am not a christian because of any sign from Heaven or miraculous work. I am a Christian because I see the weight of my Sin. And becuase I have embraced the ideal that it is finished. Depite of me, it is finished!

ONe of my favorite quotes from C.S. Lewis, and i will butcher it, is, "I am a christian, not becuase I see the sun and say THERE! Its light! But by its light i see everything else."

I am the outcast on her knees. I am Sarah to old to give birth. I am Jacob sceaming his way back to the promised land. I am Joseph in prison. I am Moses who can not speak. I am Joseph just learning that his promised is mysteriously pregnant. I am the woman at the well. I am the doubting Thomas. I am Peter, in his feebleness saying "you are the Christ!" I am Paul saying without grace I do not go.

Why am I once saved and always saved?

Because He swore it by His holiness. And gave us the sun and the moon as a witnesses!.

And for me, a sinner who throws himself completely at the mercy of of his Word. I am completely screwed if He was lying!

fewarechosen
May 31st 2008, 01:38 PM
well spoken puddle -- but i completely disagree.

26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


now remember he was talking to his servents not people who arent his servents, aka having the holy spirit.

now we are not profitable because of ourselves we are profitable because god put the holy spirit in us , and now wants usury. if we dont do anything with it notice what happens -- his servent who was chosen to work for him is cast into outer darkness--weeping and gnashing of teeth

we must finish , we must bring him usury -- we can just think hey i am saved i am his servent.

remember he warns of that, he will cut us off --everyone who thinks they cant be cut off is going against scripture.

you have to be grafted in to be cut off, and paul warns multiple times of this.

we do things cause god gives us power to do things he gives us the ability to not choose wrong and in so doing let the goodness shine through--- he wants his usury

he is talking to his servents there is no such thing as almost servent

as christ said
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

seamus414
May 31st 2008, 08:06 PM
Agreed - it is the language of perseverance - that is the other side of the coin of God's promise to keep His own - but His own must - and will (by His grace) persevere. Your exegesis of Jn 10 and Rom 8 really is imposing your Arminian theology on the text and inferring meaning that simply is not there. God is greater than all - even our hugely powerful (in your opinion) free will.....


I am not sure why you are using the term "Arminian" as if it were some sort of epithet. In my view, that is the natural reading of the passage and I think you are imposing your Calvinistic view onto the passages.

Again, as I said earlier in this thread, there is obviously a difference of opinion between well meaning Christians who read the same texts. For me, I decide to chose the reading that it he most close to the teaching of the earliest Christians, which is what you describe as Arminianism. As I said before, your view was innovated in the 1500's and has no derivation in the historic Christian teaching.

BroRog
Jun 1st 2008, 12:40 AM
Hebrews 6 (NIV): 4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30035b)]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

What exactly does this mean for someone who "fell away" or came very close to doing so - who experienced these things and then went into a deep valley again?

We have verses that tell us when we fall to get back up, we have the parable of the prodigal son, we have the verses that say that nobody can be snatched out of His hand, we have the verse that tells us that our calling is irrevocable (Rom 11:29). How do the Hebrews verses line up with these?

I realize the conversation has gone way beyond the initial post in this thread, but I haven't been around long and couldn't get to this early enough. So, if you don't mind, just consider this belated response as informational, rather than dialog.

I believe there are at least two interpretations of this verse, the one stated here, and the one I am about to propose. If I may summarize the first interpretation this way,

Once you have accepted Jesus as savior, and subsequently rejected him, it's impossible to accept him again.

[My apologies to merjorg if my summary statement does not reflect his or her interpretation.]

I believe, instead, that Paul is saying something like this,

Once you have accepted Jesus as savior, and subsequently rejected him, it is impossible to find another way to be brought to repentance.

Why do I think this is Paul's point? Considering the rest of the letter, we observe the larger issue. Paul is appealing to his Jewish readers to NOT return to the sacrifice of animals in their search for God's mercy and forgiveness. His readers are tempted to return to the animal sacrifices in order to avoid being persecuted as Christians. This "other way", i.e. the animal sacrifices, is looking pretty good as an alternative to belief in Jesus.

It isn't as if Paul is saying that these Hebrews can't return to Jesus. That's what he wants them to do. Rather, he is saying that no other way to eternal life exists than the way they already chose in Jesus.

alethos
Jun 1st 2008, 01:11 PM
In other words, he thinks that you can truly have salvation and can truly lose it. So, God either breaks His promises deliberately and can't be trusted (Jn 10:28-30) or can't keep His promises and shouldn't be worshipped as Almighty, 'cos WE'RE stronger than Him! :B

It's not a matter who is stronger. God doesn't force people to continue to abide in Him. God doesn't use force as you assume. Those that continue to abide and remain or continue in the faith do so willingly, not by force. Those who walk away and depart from the faith do so willingly. The strong-armed God you speak of, who has to use force to keep His sheep, can't be found nowhere in the Scriptures.

Jesus even went as far to clearly state:

John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

losthorizon
Jun 1st 2008, 02:51 PM
Agreed - it is the language of perseverance - that is the other side of the coin of God's promise to keep His own - but His own must - and will (by His grace) persevere. Your exegesis of Jn 10 and Rom 8 really is imposing your Arminian theology on the text and inferring meaning that simply is not there. God is greater than all - even our hugely powerful (in your opinion) free will.....

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” Galatians 5:4
The question that goes begging in your argument regarding God’s grace is this simple truth – how can one “fall” from something (God’s grace) if he were never under His grace to start with and how can one be “severed” from that to which he was never attached in the first place (the body Christ)? The truth is a man cannot fall from God’s divine grace unless God has first bestowed His saving grace upon him just as one cannot be separated from the body of Christ unless he first has been added to that body by the Lord. And Holy Writ is clear - a Christian can "fall from grace" and be "severed from Christ". This is the reality of sin that goes un-repented and un-confessed - if the Christian commits sin, and dies in his sins without repentance; for his sins that he has done shall he die and be eternally separated from his God.

There is a universal truth taught in both the OT and the NT and it is as true today as it was when it was written by God’s prophet long ago and no matter which way one chooses to spin God’s grace the biblical facts remain true to God – the righteous man (a true Christian) can (and sometimes does) turn away from his righteousness and sin in such a way that he falls completely away from God’s grace and becomes severed from his Lord. And this same biblical truth tells us that if the fallen sinner “hardens his heart” and refuses to repent and dies in his sins he will be eternally (as in forever) severed from God’s grace…
When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Ezekiel 18:24

ARCHER42
Jun 2nd 2008, 03:10 PM
It's not a matter who is stronger. God doesn't force people to continue to abide in Him. God doesn't use force as you assume. Those that continue to abide and remain or continue in the faith do so willingly, not by force. Those who walk away and depart from the faith do so willingly. The strong-armed God you speak of, who has to use force to keep His sheep, can't be found nowhere in the Scriptures.

Jesus even went as far to clearly state:

John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
-----------------------------------------------------------

So the same 'God' that will or has those who do not abide, 'thrown'.. by force into the fire........ they are burned....

this same God who does this , has He not the ability to use 'force' to protect and keep His OWN sheep?

You only playing one side of the coin.. there...

As the Good Sheperd He watches and Keeps His OWN
all that the Father gave Him will come to Him.. and NO MAN OR ANYTHING IS ABLE TO SEPARATE THEM.... OR TO PLUCK THEM OUT OF HIS HANDS.... that is equating to force.... if something is using force to pluck them out of His Hands... God is not going to just sit back and be a wimp... He's going to use force to 'keep' them... period.... Do people not believe today that God is 100 percent Sovereign? I just marvel at that....He is Providential in all things... Even 'keeping' His OWN...

It all boils down to whether you as a person believe in the Scriputre that God CHOOSES you.. you do not choose Him.... this is where the rubber hits the road..
You cannot come to Him on your own.. Thats not Biblical... and it offends many people.. but that's the Way God is.. He said it... We who defend that are only Defending what He states in His Word... If you have a disagreement with that , then its better you take that matter up with Him...

Until the time of Jesus the Christ... the Kingdom of Heaven suffered violence.... but when He (Heaven) appeared amonst men, when He appeared full of Power, Truth and Grace.... Bringing Light to the Gospel... Then the Kingdom of Heaven invaded, all of a sudden you have the Son of Man invading the 'territories ruled by the powers of darkness', taking and releasing His sheep in darkness 'by force'.. He was setting His sheep 'free' from bondage...

That is Spiritual Power and Authority... That is Kingdom Power and Kingdom dynamics... Releasing those that are in bondage from the powers of darkness... Now thats 'force'.. not brought about by fleshly motives or man's wisdom or understanding.. but Real Spiritual Force...

The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob does use force.. but its not as our fleshly eyes and man made religous wisdom can comprehend... The Bible calls believers to perservere.... to be vigilant, to be sober.... there are spiritual dynamics out there that are always working to draw us away.. to trap and decieve those who are Abiding in Him... those who are not abiding in Him .. they don't worry about.. they are already in darkness.

If you are in Him and Abiding.. you will 'know' it... You will 'know' that you are His.. His OWN... did you do that on your own? NO.. You will 'know your Election as well... You will be confident in Your Election ... is that something you did? No He Chooses His own... and His Own He keeps and protects...

Can a Christian grow spiritually

if today he 'loses' His salvation.. then two days later 'regains' it.. but then only to lose it again 5 days later.. .but then God was merciful again and 'regrafted' Him in the next day..... I hear this amonst people and watch people go thru it..


Unfortunately this is what many believe.. they never grow, they are stuck in that 'rut' of condemnation.... and so worried about 'losing' their salvation or falling away...they go back and forth.. Condemnation does not come from God....

If you are His.. He will place that confidence and trust in your heart that YOU are HIS>>> and that no man ...
no nothing, can Separate You from Him period... In that state you can begin to Grow IN Grace..and not that continual rut and fear of whether 'i lost my salvation' or have i fallen away..

ARCHER42
Jun 2nd 2008, 03:32 PM
The strong-armed God you speak of, who has to use force to keep His sheep, can't be found nowhere in the Scriptures.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I"m sure glad My God, Jesus the Christ, used His Strong arm when He saved me.. for He used His strong Arm to deliver me of many wicked devils... in 1994

Plus there were many times prior to my conversion when He used His 'strong arm' to hold back the gates of Hell and Satan Himself as he was poised ready to devour me as an unbeliever.. He revealed these times to me after He Saved me.... I wept with joy and revrence for Him and His Providence and His unmerited Grace..

this is one of my close calls and when His Strong Arm was there

At one time in my life I was ready to end it all as an unbeliever... I had pulled out the shotgun and was going to commit suicide.. As I sat there on the bed.. I
sensed this enormous spiritual pressure in the room, it was like it was trying to rip at my mind.. tearing.. but then this 'peace' which at that time I could not understand led me to just put the gun down and lay down on the bed.. I fell asleep and awoke the next morning... After He saved me in 1994 He revealed to me the battle that took place that night in that bedroom... Satan had petitioned for my life.. Jesus said NO>>>>>> He Belongs to ME.... and yet Satan was still there roaming and trying to devour me... getting me to 'pull that trigger'... but Jesus with His Strong Arm drove Him out of there.. He is Providential in all things.. Even Spiritual Warfare..
So Does God use Force to Keep His sheep? I should say so.. because if He didn't... I would not be writing this post.. I would of been another statistic and another obituary notice in the paper....



You see its not that we 'first' love God.. but that He 'loves' us first... we respond to the Revelation of His love and unmerited Grace with obdeience... and joy and a 'love for Him for Who He is and What He accomplished on that Bloody Cross...

alethos
Jun 2nd 2008, 09:53 PM
You only playing one side of the coin.. there...

Actually I presented a God who is both merciful, loving, and longsuffering, while at the same time He is also Judge. You can't just ignore the truth of John 15:6 which again is where Jesus tells us:

John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

So how do you interpret such a plain Scriptural statement which Jesus made?

9Marksfan
Jun 2nd 2008, 11:31 PM
well spoken puddle -- but i completely disagree.

You're kinda contradicting yourself, aren't you?!?


26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

now remember he was talking to his servents not people who arent his servents, aka having the holy spirit.

No - he is speaking of the visible church - as with most of his parables.


now we are not profitable because of ourselves we are profitable because god put the holy spirit in us

Agreed - and the servant who was condemned to Hell was unprofitable - because he didn't have the Holy Spirit - we're agreed then!


, and now wants usury. if we dont do anything with it notice what happens -- his servent who was chosen to work for him is cast into outer darkness--weeping and gnashing of teeth

we must finish , we must bring him usury -- we can just think hey i am saved i am his servent.

Nowhere do I say that - and nowehre does Puddlegum say that either!


remember he warns of that, he will cut us off --everyone who thinks they cant be cut off is going against scripture.

Of course we can all be cut off - if God leaves us to our own devices - let him who THINKS he stands take heed, lest he fall. God will keep His own till the end - but are we His own? Or are we kidding ourselves? That's always the ultimate question.


you have to be grafted in to be cut off, and paul warns multiple times of this.

But what does "grafted in" ACTUALLY mean? Notice that those who did not abide were cut off (Jn 15:2, 6) - surely that means they never drew from the sap? So if they were "grafted in" but did not take the sap, what was their being grafted in? Adherence? Association? Baptism? Profession of faith? Membership? So many are "grafted into" the church in one way or another - but were never saved.....I believe this is what Jesus is talking about here.


we do things cause god gives us power to do things he gives us the ability to not choose wrong and in so doing let the goodness shine through--- he wants his usury

he is talking to his servents there is no such thing as almost servent

A servant is not a son.


as christ said
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Do we have any evidence that the unprofitable servant was EVER with Him?

And can I say - what is there in Puddlegum's post that makes you think he is like the unprofitable servant? I wish I had his humility and honesty.

9Marksfan
Jun 2nd 2008, 11:34 PM
I am not sure why you are using the term "Arminian" as if it were some sort of epithet. In my view, that is the natural reading of the passage and I think you are imposing your Calvinistic view onto the passages.

Quite the contrary - you are importing things which are simply not there - if what you say were true, then such a CRUCIALLY important doctrine WOULD be there - and spelled out!


Again, as I said earlier in this thread, there is obviously a difference of opinion between well meaning Christians who read the same texts. For me, I decide to chose the reading that it he most close to the teaching of the earliest Christians, which is what you describe as Arminianism. As I said before, your view was innovated in the 1500's and has no derivation in the historic Christian teaching.

Why do you discount my reply about Augustine? The early Fathers taught the Mass (sadly, including Augustine), so we shouldn't think them to be infallible. Can I ask - are you a Roman Catholic?

fewarechosen
Jun 2nd 2008, 11:42 PM
9mark

do you think the getting the holy spirit is being chosen as one of his ?


see our difference is ---you saying visable church.

so now by you saying visable church --i would assume thats anyone who claims to have been following god at the time

9Marksfan
Jun 2nd 2008, 11:54 PM
9mark

do you think the getting the holy spirit is being chosen as one of his ?

Not exactly - but those who are chosen receive the Holy Spirit - and only those. Does that answer your question?

fewarechosen
Jun 3rd 2008, 12:36 AM
i think it does

now also do you think the term "grafted in" is talking about those who recieve the holy spirit ?

when christ is using the tree analogy

ARCHER42
Jun 3rd 2008, 12:57 AM
Actually I presented a God who is both merciful, loving, and longsuffering, while at the same time He is also Judge. You can't just ignore the truth of John 15:6 which again is where Jesus tells us:

John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

So how do you interpret such a plain Scriptural statement which Jesus made?
------------------------------------------------------
I'm not IGNORING that Scripture.. and it is a Great Truth. .. and It should make the believer have even a much more Revrent fear for Him...understanding that He is Soveriegn..... and that He does have the power to gather those who do not abide in Him and cast them into the fire...

BUT you stated this in your above post....


The strong-armed God you speak of, who has to use force to keep His sheep, can't be found nowhere in the Scriptures.

I strongly disagree with this statement.......



If this is the case then I'm not sitting here writing this post.. as I should of been ''dead''.. with the blast of that shotgun and many other numerous times that 'physical' death was imminent.... I 'know' who was there using His Strong arm of Force.. to push back the 'devourerer' , the one who still thinks he has the power over death.......... and this not only as a believer but even 'before' I knew Him or even understood what Jesus Christ and the Cross were all about..

If the 'above' statement is true then I'm not born- again .. I'm not delivered from many wicked devils...... I'm still running around living in the flesh.. enjoying drunkeness, rioting, the pleasures of the flesh, having a 'mind' knowledge of Jesus... etc etc...

is the above, the 'fruit' that is produced today? I think not.. I "know" I"m delivered from those wicked devils........... for those around me will even 'confess'... wow you've sure changed... whats gotten into you... your not like you used to be Archer.... etc...

Before 1994 I never confessed Jesus IS LORD, but today I do... and I 'know' and it was thru the USE of His Strong and Mighty Arm.... to deliver....


Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the Arm of the Lord revealed Isaiah 53:1

Behold the Lord God will come with a strong hand, and His arm shale rule for Him; Behold, His reward is with Him and His work before Him...

He shall feed His flock like a shepherd; He shall gather the lambs with His arm, and carry them in His Bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young;

Isaiah 40:10-11


... for they overcame him thru the Blood of the Lamb and the Word of their testimony..


God's mighty Arm is Strong and it is powerful and strong enough to KEEP and DELIVER.. it is the Arm of Salvation.. which belongs only to Jesus the Christ...

losthorizon
Jun 3rd 2008, 01:07 AM
Not exactly - but those who are chosen receive the Holy Spirit - and only those. Does that answer your question?
But even the “chosen” - those who “were made partakers of the Holy Spirit” can fall from grace in such a way as to be severed from Christ.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned. (Heb 6:4-8)When you get a chance please respond to post #91 addressed to your argument that a child of God cannot sin in a way that he would be severed from Christ when we are plainly told by the inspired writer that when a “righteous man” (a true Christian) turns away from his righteousness, and commits un-repented sin, and dies in those sins – he is eternally separated from God.

9Marksfan
Jun 3rd 2008, 08:29 AM
i think it does

now also do you think the term "grafted in" is talking about those who recieve the holy spirit ?

when christ is using the tree analogy

No - I think it is speaking of all those in the visible church - and because of the very close similarity with what Paul says about the bracnes being broken off the olive tree in Rom 11 (unbelieving Jews under the old covenant), I think we need to think of an Abrahamic church - all those who were in covenant with God from Abraham onwards (see Rom 4 and Gal 3) - many were IN the covenant but were not OF it (they are not all Israel who are Israel) and similarly, there are "many" in the churches who profess to know Christ, may have been baptised and (like Judas) may be thought by all (save Christ) to be Christians (including themselves - see the warnings in 1 John in particular about deceiving ourselves), but in fact were never saved - and how do they show they were never saved? They don't abide - they are deadwood - never drawing from the life-giving sap of Christ - and so eventually they are broken off and burned.

9Marksfan
Jun 3rd 2008, 09:19 AM
“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” Galatians 5:4
The question that goes begging in your argument regarding God’s grace is this simple truth – how can one “fall” from something (God’s grace) if he were never under His grace to start with

I believe that Paul is speaking of their faith in Christ being prima facie evidence that they have embraced the grace of God - he believes they have, yet he no doubt has in mind the same thing as the Lord Jesus in the parable of the sower, when he said "They receive the message with joy (to all intents and purposes they seem to have been saved by grace) but only believe for a while" - why? Because they have no root - and will soon be wither and die.....


and how can one be “severed” from that to which he was never attached in the first place (the body Christ)?

That's the key - it's the BODY of Christ - the visible church - that one is attached to - there are countless millions who are affiliated or attached to the church (whether as adherents or baptised members) who are strangers to Christ.


The truth is a man cannot fall from God’s divine grace unless God has first bestowed His saving grace upon him

You are reading too much into what Paul says.


just as one cannot be separated from the body of Christ unless he first has been added to that body by the Lord.

No - are you really saying that it is ONLY the LORD who adds to the visible body of Christ? What about the tares sewn among the wheat - did not an ENEMY do this? And the foolsih virgins/builders? The goats? The unprofitable steward?


And Holy Writ is clear - a Christian can "fall from grace" and be "severed from Christ".

Temporarily, yes, like Peter - but because of Christ's great High Priesthood, never FINALLY! Because Christ had prayed for him, He could confidently say "WHEN you return" not "IF"! Do you for a minute think that God the Father EVER says "no" to one of Christ's prayers for His own - the ones whom the Father had given to Him? "I and the Father are ONE" - among other things ONE in purpose!


This is the reality of sin that goes un-repented and un-confessed - if the Christian commits sin, and dies in his sins without repentance; for his sins that he has done shall he die and be eternally separated from his God.

So every one of us must be without any sin the moment we (possibly unexpectedly) die, or we will be lost forever? What a theology of DESPAIR!!!!! CHRIST saves us - WE DO NOT SAVE OURSELVES! We CANNOT!!!!!!!!

You are equating ALL sin with the particular sin of apostasy in the Galatians passage - please read the context. What Paul said was true - if we seek to justify ourselves by the law and not grace, then we are abandoning God's grace and cannot expect any of the ongoing benefits it confers. As far as severing ourselves from Christ is concerned, the Greek word is katargeo, which means "to reduce to inactivity" - a very apt description of those who turn from salvation by grace alone to salvation by a combination of faith and works/ritual etc - one translation says "Christ is become of none effect to you" - which is precisely what happens! Now, Paul is clearly viewing this as a temporary setback in the Galatians' experience - he's clearly not writing them off but warning them of the consequences of persisting in that state - that is consistent with what he teaches elsewhere - those who turn away from Christ and remain in that state till death will be lost - yet because of his clear teaching in eg 1 Cor 2:1-4, Phil 1:6, 1 Thess 5:23-24 and Rom 8:28-39, such people could never have been truly justified by grace in the first place - he cannot know whether the Galatians were truly regenerate or not, but because "love hopes all things", he gives them the benefit of the doubt and urges them to return to being justified by grace alone through faith alone - we should follow his charitable example, while prizing the gosple of God's grace as highly as he did - any other message is another gospel and those who believe it and teach it are anathema.


There is a universal truth taught in both the OT and the NT and it is as true today as it was when it was written by God’s prophet long ago and no matter which way one chooses to spin God’s grace the biblical facts remain true to God – the righteous man (a true Christian) can (and sometimes does) turn away from his righteousness and sin in such a way that he falls completely away from God’s grace and becomes severed from his Lord.

If that is true, then Scripture contradicts itself, God breaks His promises and cannot therefore be trusted and/or is not almighty to save - and therefore not worthy of our worship. Accordingly, I believe that such teaching is error of the grossest degree. Please let me have your comments on the verses in Paul's letters I referred to and also Jn 10:27-30 and whether you think that the Christian's supposed "free" will to walk away from Christ is greater than God's power and willingness to save to the uttermost.


And this same biblical truth tells us that if the fallen sinner “hardens his heart” and refuses to repent and dies in his sins he will be eternally (as in forever) severed from God’s grace…

When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Ezekiel 18:24


Jesus himself spoke of "righteous people", but he meant those who were righteous in their own eyes - our own righteousness is as filthy rags to God - even in the OT, a person was not saved by THEIR righteousness - faith (trust) in Jehovah was required and then (as with Abraham), righteousness was credited (imputed) to them - like Joshua the high priest, they were clothed in fine garments - the righteousness of God - it has always been GOD'S righteousness imputed by faith to people that counts - He is THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!!!!!!

Righteousness in the OT was usually spoken of in relation to a person's lifestyle - not their spiritual standing with God - what you might call "horizontal" or "relational" righteousness, rather than "vertical" or "imputed" righteousness. Then, as in Christ's day and here and now, there are those who trusted in their own righteousness - but they can never keep it up - the "righteous man" here is one who tries to live righteously - but can't "keep it up" and goes back to his wicked ways - such people have always existed and their end will indeed be "death" in every sense.......

9Marksfan
Jun 3rd 2008, 09:25 AM
But even the “chosen” - those who “were made partakers of the Holy Spirit” can fall from grace in such a way as to be severed from Christ.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned. (Heb 6:4-8)

As I've said elsewhere, I don't believe such people were truly saved in the first place - no mention of faith is made, a key theme in Hebrews, especially the later chapters, that deal with having confidence and assurance before God. It is possible to come VERY close to being truly regenerate (in a real sense, the ministry and work of the Holy Spirit" rubs off" on unbelievers when the gospel is preached in the power of the Spirit - and people can in a real sense "share" in all that God is doing - and yet they themselves are never truly regenerate. So no, those who are chosen are SEALED with the Holy Spirit - not just those who "share" in His work.

When you get a chance please respond to post #91 addressed to your argument that a child of God cannot sin in a way that he would be severed from Christ when we are plainly told by the inspired writer that when a “righteous man” (a true Christian) turns away from his righteousness, and commits un-repented sin, and dies in those sins – he is eternally separated from God.

Apologies - I needed a bit of time and have only had that this morning - I don't believe the "righteous man" in Ezek 18 equates to a true Christian, although I do believe we can apply the truths of that passage to the visible church, just as God was applying them to the visible house of Israel, urging it to turn and live. That's what we do in the preaching of the gospel within the visible church.

losthorizon
Jun 3rd 2008, 12:38 PM
That's the key - it's the BODY of Christ - the visible church - that one is attached to - there are countless millions who are affiliated or attached to the church (whether as adherents or baptised members) who are strangers to Christ.

But you are missing this important fact - it is only God who adds one to the “body of Christ” (Acts 2). For one to be “in Christ” one is there only by the action of God – not by being “voted in” by a body of men. We are “baptized by one Spirit into one body”. Only God (who alone knows the hearts of men) can put one into the body – only God can “sever” one from Christ. Therefore – for one to be “severed from Christ” by God that person must first have been added to Christ by God – ie – be a true Christian. It is only a “true Christian” who can be severed from Christ – it is only a true Christian who can fall from grace. The biblical truism is this - the “righteous man” (a true Christian) can so sin – fail to repent – and then be eternally severed from God’s grace if he dies in his sins.

seamus414
Jun 3rd 2008, 12:50 PM
9Marksfan:Quite the contrary - you are importing things which are simply not there - if what you say were true, then such a CRUCIALLY important doctrine WOULD be there - and spelled out!

Considering that a thread like this exists and with so many well meaninged Christians reading the same Bible arguing from opposite points of view would seem to indicate that the issue simply is not overtly spelled out either way.

Why do you discount my reply about Augustine? The early Fathers taught the Mass (sadly, including Augustine), so we shouldn't think them to be infallible. Can I ask - are you a Roman Catholic?

I am an Anglican. Therefore, I maintain a healthy respect for the historic teaching of the Church. Therefore, I reject the Protestant teaching of Sola Scriptura in favour of the concept of Scriptura Suprema.

I am not exactly sure what you mean by "taught the Mass" - if you mean that he taught about the efficacy of the grace imparted by the Eucharist in the sacramental body and blood of Jesus, then I do not see why that is "sadly". If you mean the so-called continual "re-sacrifice" of Christ on the altar of the Eucharist, then allow me to point out that whilst that may have been a wide spread teaching at one point, this teaching was never accepted, and indeed was eventually rejected, by the Roman Church.

I do not discount it, I just do not have an encyclopedic knowledge of Augustine to make an intelligent response. What I can say is that Augustine's teachings were never as cavalier as Calvin's with respect to the issue of predesination, which is essentially what you are arguing in the guise of "once saved always saved." I will conceed that he made some statements that appear to have what one could later call an Calvinistic bent. However, when one looks at historic Christian teaching it is a mistake to use one theologian against all of the others. I note that Calvinists tend to rest virtually wholly on Augustine and ignore the rest of the Patristics. This is a mistake and, may I add, Augustine's teachings on this subject never made it into the official teaching of any Christian church until Calvinism became a denomination. I would also add that, as far as I am aware, Augustine never rejected the Sacrament of Confession which, in principle, undermines the idea of once saved always saved. So, I think it is safe to say that Augustine was a bit conflicted in his views on the subject. He certainly had a "Calvinistic" bent but never fully went that direction.

As a side note, I see that you have often spoken of the "visable Church" in this thread, but (and this may the topic of another thread) appear to reject the tell tale feature of the visable church: bishops in succession.

alethos
Jun 3rd 2008, 01:07 PM
If this is the case then I'm not sitting here writing this post.. as I should of been ''dead''.. with the blast of that shotgun and many other numerous times that 'physical' death was imminent.... I 'know' who was there using His Strong arm of Force.. to push back the 'devourerer' , the one who still thinks he has the power over death.......... and this not only as a believer but even 'before' I knew Him or even understood what Jesus Christ and the Cross were all about..

If the 'above' statement is true then I'm not born- again .. I'm not delivered from many wicked devils...... I'm still running around living in the flesh.. enjoying drunkeness, rioting, the pleasures of the flesh, having a 'mind' knowledge of Jesus... etc etc...

is the above, the 'fruit' that is produced today? I think not.. I "know" I"m delivered from those wicked devils........... for those around me will even 'confess'... wow you've sure changed... whats gotten into you... your not like you used to be Archer.... etc...

[/COLOR]

All those things were personal choices.

You personally chose to stop living a sinful drunken life. You personally chose to not pull the trigger. You personally chose to stop riotous living. etc. etc. It was a conscience choice you made, because you heeded the voice of God, which is an act of obedience. You could have also chosen disobedience. God doesn't force our obedience. It's a free will choice each of us must make. You can choose to sin or not sin. Either way God doesn't make either choice for you. You can likewise turn you back on Him and walk away and depart from the faith (become an apostate). If that were not so then Scripture wouldn't state:
1 Tm. 4:1 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the latter times some will depart from the faith

If that were not so Paul's warning to the elders of Ephesus was pointless.

Acts 20:28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among whom the Holy Spirit has appointed you as overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.
Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
Acts 20:30 And men from among yourselves will rise up with deviant doctrines to lure the disciples into following them.
Acts 20:31 Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for three years I did not stop warning each one of you with tears.

If that were not so, then Paul's exhortation to continue in the faith (Acts 14:22) was likewise pointless

If what I said isn't true, then the warning to believing brethren from the writter of Hebrews was pointless.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, (referring to believers) lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God:

etc. etc.

alethos
Jun 3rd 2008, 01:13 PM
They don't abide - they are deadwood - never drawing from the life-giving sap of Christ - and so eventually they are broken off and burned.

They couldn't have been broken off unless they were first part of the tree. It's not possible to break off that which is not attached. That also means they had to be green and growing at some point. To say a brach has never drawn sap is an impossibility. Unless it had drawn sap at some time, it coundn't have become a branch in the first place. But your analogy ignores that simple fact.

fewarechosen
Jun 3rd 2008, 01:29 PM
They couldn't have been broken off unless they were first part of the tree. It's not possible to break off that which is not attached. That also means they had to be green and growing at some point. But your analogy ignores that simple fact.


i agree alethos if you are grafted on the tree you must have the sap flowing at some point .

seamus414
Jun 3rd 2008, 01:50 PM
They couldn't have been broken off unless they were first part of the tree. It's not possible to break off that which is not attached. That also means they had to be green and growing at some point. But your analogy ignores that simple fact.

Exactly. The idea that one can be at once "in" the church but not really "in" the church is counterintuitive and illogical and a rather tortured reading of the plain language of the Scriptures.

losthorizon
Jun 3rd 2008, 05:47 PM
As I've said elsewhere, I don't believe such people were truly saved in the first place - no mention of faith is made, a key theme in Hebrews, especially the later chapters, that deal with having confidence and assurance before God. It is possible to come VERY close to being truly regenerate (in a real sense, the ministry and work of the Holy Spirit" rubs off" on unbelievers when the gospel is preached in the power of the Spirit - and people can in a real sense "share" in all that God is doing - and yet they themselves are never truly regenerate. So no, those who are chosen are SEALED with the Holy Spirit - not just those who "share" in His work.

Only those who are “in Christ” – only those who are true Christians are made “partakers of the Holy Spirit” when (by faith) they obey the gospel of Jesus Christ and receive “the remission of sins” and the indwelling "gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38) – ie – when they become partakers of the Spirit of God through God’s grace via the blood of Jesus Christ. Salvation is like pregnancy – you can’t be “a little pregnant” just as you cannot be “a little saved” ("very close" as you suggest). According to the law of contradiction one is either saved or lost. Your argument to the contrary appears to be a non-argument. Those Christians who have received the Holy Spirit can apostatize and be lost eternally per the inspired writers of the Bible…”when a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.” Ezekiel 18:24

9Marksfan
Jun 3rd 2008, 06:54 PM
Exactly. The idea that one can be at once "in" the church but not really "in" the church is counterintuitive and illogical and a rather tortured reading of the plain language of the Scriptures.

But you yourself define a Christian as someone who is baptised - but surely you will know that MANY such people have NO faith at all and never darken the doorway of a church - yet they are part of the "covenant community" - and yet many have never been saved and have no personal faith at all - so YOU believe in a "half way house" yourself! They are, to be sure, lost - actually MORE lost than those who are "outside", because to some extent they KNOW the truth but reject it - but there are far too many parables in the gospels that point to TWO types of people in churches - saved and lost - sheep and goats - wise and foolish builders/virgins - good and bad fish/servants - wheat and tares.

9Marksfan
Jun 3rd 2008, 07:04 PM
Only those who are “in Christ” – only those who are true Christians are made “partakers of the Holy Spirit” when (by faith) they obey the gospel of Jesus Christ and receive “the remission of sins” and the indwelling "gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38) – ie – when they become partakers of the Spirit of God through God’s grace via the blood of Jesus Christ. Salvation is like pregnancy – you can’t be “a little pregnant” just as you cannot be “a little saved” ("very close" as you suggest).

No - wasn't Judas VERY close? Wasn't Agrippa "ALMOST" a Christian? I disagree that only the elect can PARTAKE of the Holy Spirit. We'll have to agree to differ on this one.


According to the law of contradiction one is either saved or lost.

I agree - but I believe that you can APPEAR to everyone (even yourself) that you are saved - but still be utterly lost, because you have never been born again.


Your argument to the contrary appears to be a non-argument. Those Christians who have received the Holy Spirit can apostatize and be lost eternally per the inspired writers of the Bible…”when a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.” Ezekiel 18:24

This really is a hill you're going to die on, isn't it? You haven't commented on my comments on this verse and why I believe you are tasking it out of context.

ProjectPeter
Jun 3rd 2008, 07:07 PM
No - wasn't Judas VERY close? Wasn't Agrippa "ALMOST" a Christian? I disagree that only the elect can PARTAKE of the Holy Spirit. We'll have to agree to differ on this one.



I agree - but I believe that you can APPEAR to everyone (even yourself) that you are saved - but still be utterly lost, because you have never been born again.



This really is a hill you're going to die on, isn't it? You haven't commented on my comments on this verse and why I believe you are tasking it out of context.
But if the Holy Spirit is given to those that obey Him... how do you figure those that don't can partake of the Spirit?

seamus414
Jun 3rd 2008, 07:15 PM
But you yourself define a Christian as someone who is baptised - but surely you will know that MANY such people have NO faith at all and never darken the doorway of a church - yet they are part of the "covenant community" - and yet many have never been saved and have no personal faith at all - so YOU believe in a "half way house" yourself! They are, to be sure, lost - actually MORE lost than those who are "outside", because to some extent they KNOW the truth but reject it - but there are far too many parables in the gospels that point to TWO types of people in churches - saved and lost - sheep and goats - wise and foolish builders/virgins - good and bad fish/servants - wheat and tares.


The distinction, of course, is that I believe that those who are apostate were, at some point, saved.

losthorizon
Jun 3rd 2008, 10:15 PM
Wasn't Agrippa "ALMOST" a Christian? I disagree that only the elect can PARTAKE of the Holy Spirit. We'll have to agree to differ on this one.


Well there’s an old saying in my neck of the woods - “almost” only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades – not in the matter of salvation. Again – according to the first law of logic one is either fully saved or one is completely and hopelessly lost – you can’t be saved and lost at the same time – it ain’t gonna happen. We are either spiritually dead or we are alive in Christ Jesus. Agrippa was not 10% saved – he was 100% lost. As the old song goes “…almost persuaded…almost but lost. Only those who are under God’s grace (and only those) are partakers of the Holy Spirit – the Spirit is only given to those washed in the blood of Christ and after we are saved then (and only then) we are “made to drink of one Spirit.” This truth alone does great damage to your notion of once saved always saved.


I agree - but I believe that you can APPEAR to everyone (even yourself) that you are saved - but still be utterly lost, because you have never been born again.
But again I remind you – God cannot be fooled. He knows the hearts of all men – he knows the pretenders from the real thing. You and I may be fooled but He is not and it is the Lord alone who adds the believer to the body of Christ – just as it is only the Lord who can “sever” the apostate from that same body. Your argument doesn’t hold water – sorry.


This really is a hill you're going to die on, isn't it? You haven't commented on my comments on this verse and why I believe you are tasking it out of context.
It is not a hill that anyone need die on – the passage quoted in English is true to the Hebrew and it says exactly what the Holy Spirit intended it to say – words do mean something btw. The righteous man (a true Christian) can apostatize – fall from grace – be severed from Christ – die unrepentant – and be eternally separated from his Creator. It is in the Book.

I did read your comments and your point is moot – the passage is self-explanatory and means exactly what it states. Why are we repeatedly warned against falling from grace – why did Paul warn the Galatians who wanted to turn back to the shadows of Judaism - “you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace” (Gal. 5:4)? Answer: because biblically it is possible for one to apostatize and be lost - eternally.