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Diolectic
May 30th 2008, 01:59 AM
The cause of Adams fall is the flesh:
1John 2:16 For all that is in the world,
1: the lust of the flesh
2: the lust of the eyes
3: the pride of life,
is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was
1: good for food,
and that it was
2: pleasant to the eyes.
and a tree to be
3: desired to make one wise
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Roelof
May 30th 2008, 06:08 AM
Diolectric

I agree on what you said, but Satan tempted the woman.

Athanasius
May 30th 2008, 06:12 AM
Satan tempted the woman; Adam made a conscious choice, freely.

Duane Morse
May 30th 2008, 07:46 AM
Satan tempted the woman; Adam made a conscious choice, freely.
Was Adam's choice wrong?
To be with his woman that God ordained him to be with?


I wonder.

JordanW
May 30th 2008, 08:18 AM
Satan tempted Eve, then she told Adam about it, and Adam willingly accepted the apple and ate.

seamus414
May 30th 2008, 12:24 PM
Ultimately, if we, men, take our role seriously as head of the family, the Fall was due to Adam not Eve.

One should take note that God's command not to eat of the tree was given to Adam not Eve. It was Adam's responsibility, as head of his family, to relay God's wishes to his wife Eve. Clearly, Adam did not do a sufficient job in commnicating God to his wife which made her more able to be tempted.

I think this passage is also instructive in demonstrating the power of a wife in a marriage. Despite knowing what God said to him directly, Adam allowed his wife to persuade him otherwise.

This passage is a good reminder of how a godly marriage ought to work. The husband's responsibility is to provide the godly example and adequately witness to God's will whilst the wife is to support that endeavor.

seamus414
May 30th 2008, 12:26 PM
Was Adam's choice wrong?
To be with his woman that God ordained him to be with?


I wonder.


I note that the Fall did not occur until after Adam had consumed the fruit. As head of his family, it was Adam's decision that caused the Fall not Eve's as he represnted the entirety of humanity.

knuckledamus
May 30th 2008, 12:29 PM
Both Adam and Eve sinned. I've never even heard of this being debated... That being said, I think it's a good observation on the part of Diolectic. Thanks :)

seamus414
May 30th 2008, 12:34 PM
Both Adam and Eve sinned. I've never even heard of this being debated... That being said, I think it's a good observation on the part of Diolectic. Thanks :)

For the sake of argument, how did Eve sin?

grptinHisHand
May 30th 2008, 12:49 PM
Adam's choice was wrong.

Read 2 Titus 2:14 "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
- Eve was deceived, she did transgress (sin). But Adam - being NOT deceived, (as He knew what God had truly said, and was HEAD of the family, as previously mentioned in this thread) -- HE, Adam, WAS held accountable by God.
g

knuckledamus
May 30th 2008, 12:56 PM
For the sake of argument, how did Eve sin?

Gen 2:16-17, God commands Adam not to eat of the fruit
Gen 3:2-3 Eve tells Satan that she was forbidden by God to eat the fruit
Gen 3:6 Eve ate the fruit

ARCHER42
May 30th 2008, 01:03 PM
What Does the Word of God tell us...

If you read where Paul is writing to Timothy... look what it says

For Adam was first formed, then Eve

And Adam was not decieved, but the woman being
decieved was in the transgression.

Notwithdstanding she shall be saved in childbearing,
if they conintue in faith and charity and holiness
with sobriety.

1 Timothy 2:13-15

Both Adam and Eve, in the Garden, became separated from the Lord's presense.. this was a result of their disobedience....

In Corinthians it declares that

For since by man came death, by man came also
the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all
be made alive.

Adam failed..... in the Garden...

But God in His mercy and compassion and His Goodness provided a way.... Jesus the Christ is the portrait of the 'new Adam'.... One who did not fail.. One who put on flesh in the likeness of His brothers and sisters, One who was pure and sinless.. never allowing the fellowship with the Father to be lost...One who even was put to physical death BUT has become the 'first fruit' from the dead.....

So as In Adam (old) all shall die.... but thru Jesus the Christ..(new Adam).. all shall be made alive...... some to Eternal Life and some to Eternal Separation..

grptinHisHand
May 30th 2008, 01:06 PM
OOPS. You are right, "Timothy" not Titus!! Don't know HOW I messed that one up!! :D
g

ARCHER42
May 30th 2008, 01:09 PM
OOPS. You are right, "Timothy" not Titus!! Don't know HOW I messed that one up!! :D
g


No problem at all... I agree with your first post 100 percent.. I knew you meant 1 Timothy....:)

seamus414
May 30th 2008, 01:24 PM
Gen 2:16-17, God commands Adam not to eat of the fruit
Gen 3:2-3 Eve tells Satan that she was forbidden by God to eat the fruit
Gen 3:6 Eve ate the fruit

The story does not give any details as to how Eve came to know she was forbidden. We do not know what Adam told her and how he told her. We do not know whether she had a complete appreciation of the situation.

knuckledamus
May 30th 2008, 01:27 PM
The story does not give any details as to how Eve came to know she was forbidden. We do not know what Adam told her and how he told her. We do not know whether she had a complete appreciation of the situation.

Genesis 3

The Temptation and Fall of Man

1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

th1bill
May 30th 2008, 01:30 PM
... I am so very impressed! Every time I have pointed out the truth of the OP, no matter the forum, I have been jumped all over for being ignorant. You folks have done some very serious study and meditation on the word of God.
... Diolectic, I commend you on this string. You have accomplished that, which I have sought after concerning these verses. Every time I have put this subject forward it has degenerated into bickering and that is never productive. You appear to have been called to teach, please, never cease.

seamus414
May 30th 2008, 01:43 PM
Genesis 3

The Temptation and Fall of Man

1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”


From the view of Eve, that is hearsay told to her through Adam.

knuckledamus
May 30th 2008, 01:48 PM
From the view of Eve, that is hearsay told to her through Adam.

I must be lost here... What are you trying to say?

seamus414
May 30th 2008, 01:53 PM
I must be lost here... What are you trying to say?

Ha! I guess my point's been lost. I was merely pointing out the roles of husband and wife relative to Adam and Eve. It appears that Adam did not fulfill his role as husband of adequately and accurately relaying God's will to Eve. As it says, Adam was NOT decieved as he knew the truth directly from God. Eve was deceived as she was was told the truth, evidently inadequately, from Adam.

knuckledamus
May 30th 2008, 02:11 PM
You can't blame Adam for Eve's being deceived. And I'm not so sure it is the man's role to be that controlling.

fewarechosen
May 30th 2008, 02:21 PM
the cause of adams fall was his decision to go away from gods command.

also seamus i think if it fully fell on adam the scripture would never have said eve was in transgression- it says she was decieved so she knew what was right and was decieved.

or else scripture would say adam was in transgression for not teaching eve

adams transgression was in chasing after his wifes ways , instead of gods
as it is with many husbands to this day.

it seems the opening post implies that flesh was the reason for the fall, its what he chose to do with that flesh that made him fall

seamus414
May 30th 2008, 03:25 PM
it seems the opening post implies that flesh was the reason for the fall, its what he chose to do with that flesh that made him fall

I agree with this. To say that the flesh itself is evil or caused the fall is a gnostic teaching which Christians reject as heresey. Instead, it was a misuse of the flesh that was the problem.

Buck shot
May 30th 2008, 04:00 PM
From the view of Eve, that is hearsay told to her through Adam.

I don't think my wife would consider anything that I told her God said was "hearsay".

Either way she knew she wasn't supposed to eat it and that is why she had to be "deceived" to eat it.

We are in a spiritual battle. Satan will continue to try to deceive us and our flesh will continue to want to yield. God will continue to give us a way of escape.

We are supposed to serve the one who is mightier than the deciever. He has indwelt us with His spirit so we are more than able to overcome these temptations! :pp

Good thread. We need to know our weaknesses!

knuckledamus
May 30th 2008, 04:08 PM
One thing I want to point out about our weaknesses, is not to get too hung up on them. If we set our mind to not doing them, and we continue to do them, it's normal. Even Paul had these same problems:


Romans 7
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

timmyb
May 30th 2008, 06:37 PM
I always wondered this... what if Adam owned up to his sin? Would he have died for Eve?

For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5:18

keep in mind, Eve was deceived and Adam knew what he was doing... God told Adam about the tree

seamus414
May 30th 2008, 06:41 PM
I always wondered this... what if Adam owned up to his sin? Would he have died for Eve?

For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5:18

keep in mind, Eve was deceived and Adam knew what he was doing... God told Adam about the tree

Exactly my point. I do not think the Fall would have occured were Adam not to have eaten the fruit. The Bible said sin entered the world through one man (i.e.: Adam) not woman.

Scubadude
May 30th 2008, 07:19 PM
The cause of Adams fall is the flesh:
1John 2:16 For all that is in the world,
1: the lust of the flesh
2: the lust of the eyes
3: the pride of life,
is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was
1: good for food,
and that it was
2: pleasant to the eyes.
and a tree to be
3: desired to make one wise
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

I'm having difficulty finding the passage, but doesn't it say somewhere that Adam was a type of Christ? I'm not claiming to understand the passage (especially since I can't find it to re-read), but what you are saying sounds more like a contrast.

knuckledamus
May 30th 2008, 07:20 PM
I'm having difficulty finding the passage, but doesn't it say somewhere that Adam was a type of Christ? I'm not claiming to understand the passage (especially since I can't find it to re-read), but what you are saying sounds more like a contrast.

Yeah, it's in Romans. Romans 5:14.

doug3
May 30th 2008, 07:30 PM
The story does not give any details as to how Eve came to know she was forbidden. We do not know what Adam told her and how he told her. We do not know whether she had a complete appreciation of the situation.

“1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 ¶ And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.” (Ge 3:1-6 AV)

She knew not to eat the fruit, and that God had said it. That should have been enough.

Athanasius
May 30th 2008, 07:32 PM
Was Adam's choice wrong?
To be with his woman that God ordained him to be with?

I wonder.

Perhaps there is more to Luke 14:26 than we immediately think of: "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." Now I agree with you, I think Adam was in a very tough spot. Adam and Eve must have been the two most brilliant people (save Jesus) to walk the earth--Adam must have understood, at least in part, the implications of his choice. He could not eat of the fruit, upholding God's command. But in doing so he knows Eve will be kicked out of the garden, grow old alone and die (Which would be 900+ years of solitude--but I don't think he knows this; 'how long' would play a big part in his choice, I think). Now what's God going to do; create for him another "Eve", Adam moves on and they keep living. Adam all the while knowing what's happening to Eve outside of the Garden?

Or... Adam could eat the fruit, be with Eve, the woman God ordained him to be with, and disobey God--how could he live with himself otherwise? I'm sure there was more going on than was told, or that anyone could think of. But I'm sure something like that was the general gist of the story.

Teke
May 30th 2008, 07:40 PM
The cause of Adams fall is the flesh:
1John 2:16 For all that is in the world,
1: the lust of the flesh
2: the lust of the eyes
3: the pride of life,
is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was
1: good for food,
and that it was
2: pleasant to the eyes.
and a tree to be
3: desired to make one wise
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Read closely. The cause is the world, IOW worldly influence, the devil's favorite tool to make us a tool of his.
My paraphrase of what Paul is saying in Col. 2:20, "The world is crucified to me, and I to the world." The world is the general name for all the passions of humanity.

"Someone has said of the saints that while alive they were dead; for though living in the flesh, they did not live for the flesh. See for which of these passions you are alive. Then you will know how far you are alive to the world, and how far you are dead to it."
St Isaac of Syria, 6th century desert father

seamus414
May 30th 2008, 07:45 PM
“1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 ¶ And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.” (Ge 3:1-6 AV)

She knew not to eat the fruit, and that God had said it. That should have been enough.


She "knew" only through Adam's telling her what God said therefore God did not tell her directly so we do not really know what exactly she knew and to what detail it was identical (or likely not identical) to what God told Adam.

seamus414
May 30th 2008, 07:54 PM
Perhaps there is more to Luke 14:26 than we immediately think of: "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." Now I agree with you, I think Adam was in a very tough spot. Adam and Eve must have been the two most brilliant people (save Jesus) to walk the earth--Adam must have understood, at least in part, the implications of his choice. He could not eat of the fruit, upholding God's command. But in doing so he knows Eve will be kicked out of the garden, grow old alone and die (Which would be 900+ years of solitude--but I don't think he knows this; 'how long' would play a big part in his choice, I think). Now what's God going to do; create for him another "Eve", Adam moves on and they keep living. Adam all the while knowing what's happening to Eve outside of the Garden?

Or... Adam could eat the fruit, be with Eve, the woman God ordained him to be with, and disobey God--how could he live with himself otherwise? I'm sure there was more going on than was told, or that anyone could think of. But I'm sure something like that was the general gist of the story.


Allow me to speculate here:

(1) Paul is clear that sin entered the world through "one man" - that being Adam, not Eve. COnsidering that and Adam's headship over the family, I do not think it is likely that humanity in general would have fallen had only Eve consumed the fruit. Adam, as head of his family, represented Eve as well as himself (but Eve does not represent Adam as well as herself) - indeed he represents the whole of humanity as we are all his "children". Therefore, through him Eve is condemned but not vice versa. Again, this truly testifies to the HUGE responsibility husbands have over their wife and children.

(2) There are 2 parts to a sin (1) intention and (2) action. Eve, being deceived, lacked the intention to sin and, therefore, did not sin.

Scubadude
May 30th 2008, 08:16 PM
Yeah, it's in Romans. Romans 5:14.

Thanks for the tip.

I remember reading this before and thinking he's talking about death and life, Adam and Christ. Naturally my mind goes toward contrast between the two. But then Paul says that Adam was a pattern of the one to come. Doesn't that suggest comparison? How is Adam comparible to Christ? :o

Athanasius
May 30th 2008, 08:20 PM
Allow me to speculate here:

(1) Paul is clear that sin entered the world through "one man" - that being Adam, not Eve. COnsidering that and Adam's headship over the family, I do not think it is likely that humanity in general would have fallen had only Eve consumed the fruit. Adam, as head of his family, represented Eve as well as himself (but Eve does not represent Adam as well as herself) - indeed he represents the whole of humanity as we are all his "children". Therefore, through him Eve is condemned but not vice versa. Again, this truly testifies to the HUGE responsibility husbands have over their wife and children.

(2) There are 2 parts to a sin (1) intention and (2) action. Eve, being deceived, lacked the intention to sin and, therefore, did not sin.

While I look at a few things... How do you propose God would have dealt with Eve's rebellion and misappropriation of the words God spoke?

Teke
May 30th 2008, 08:21 PM
Thanks for the tip.

I remember reading this before and thinking he's talking about death and life, Adam and Christ. Naturally my mind goes toward contrast between the two. But then Paul says that Adam was a pattern of the one to come. Doesn't that suggest comparison? How is Adam comparible to Christ? :o

He willingly gave his life (a conscious choice) for his bride and the world. :saint:

seamus414
May 30th 2008, 08:36 PM
While I look at a few things... How do you propose God would have dealt with Eve's rebellion and misappropriation of the words God spoke?

Honestly? I have no idea as life and conditions on Eden are entirely speculative for folks like us. The Bible is extremely sparce on this issue. The rules of atonement did not even exist so to say anything would be complete speculation at the very best.

I would caution such harsh language as "rebellion" and "misappropriation" - there is universal acknowledgement that Eve was deceived which, by defintition, means that Eve did not apprehend the situation fully. One needs intent to commit rebellion or misappropriation. The fact she was decieved would suggest she had no intent to do any of these things and, therefore, did not "rebel" or "misappropriate" as you imply.

If I had to guess as to God's action, I would guess God would exact some form of loving discipline upon her but as she had no intent to sin, she never really seperated herself from God. The act itself is not the sin but the intention behind it is, and there was no intention here by Eve as far as we can tell.

Duane Morse
May 30th 2008, 08:44 PM
I disagree that there was no intent on Eve's part.

God told her one thing, Satan another.
She chose to believe Satan's deception with the intent of some personal gain.
Then she chose to also include Adam in her indiscretion.

seamus414
May 30th 2008, 08:49 PM
I disagree that there was no intent on Eve's part.

God told her one thing, Satan another.
She chose to believe Satan's deception with the intent of some personal gain.
Then she chose to also include Adam in her indiscretion.

Again, there is NO evidence God told her ANYTHING! It was all through Adam who is imperfect.

Duane Morse
May 30th 2008, 08:55 PM
Ge 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Ge 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Ge 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Ge 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

She did not say that Adam told her, she said "God hath said".

Just because the text does not include a conversation between the Lord and Eve does not mean it did not occur.

So to say it was all through Adam is also (even more) mere speculation.

Athanasius
May 30th 2008, 09:12 PM
One needs intent to commit rebellion or misappropriation.

I'm a little busy so I can respond in full later. But just to say now, Eve and Satan were the first deconstructionists. Using the scripture Duane posted, Eve obviously asked the question of herself, "Is that what God really said?". Eve definitely had intent--In the very least she wanted to be like God.

IamBill
May 30th 2008, 09:24 PM
She "knew" only through Adam's telling her what God said therefore God did not tell her directly so we do not really know what exactly she knew and to what detail it was identical (or likely not identical) to what God told Adam.

How do you know that ?

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Not "Adam hath said that God said" - "GOD hath said"

Scubadude
May 30th 2008, 11:24 PM
He willingly gave his life (a conscious choice) for his bride and the world. :saint:

This makes more sense to me than trying to figure out who said what to whom, and who did or didn't hear what. It is more logical to say that Adam was working in concert with God's plan than it is to suggest he lost his mind. Death was added to the world because it was necessary, not because of some insane act of a deluded coward.

IamBill
May 31st 2008, 12:13 AM
I think it's written that way because it is just that simple.
WE can make any excuse we want, BUT it does NOT justify what took place.

Eve knew, was tempted, Ate , and gave to Adam, who knew, and Ate.

No excuses!!

BUT,(like us)
Adam -> the woman You gave me did it (pointing from God to eve)
Eve -> the serpent did it
serpent -> :lol: what do I know ? :monkeyd:

Athanasius
May 31st 2008, 03:32 AM
Well I mean Adam and Eve weren't idiots; and I think that in itself is a lesson. They must have been two of the most brilliant people to ever live (as I said previously) and even they (At least Eve) were deceived, tricked, by Satan.

How much more then must we rely on God.

IamBill
May 31st 2008, 04:42 AM
Well I mean Adam and Eve weren't idiots; and I think that in itself is a lesson. They must have been two of the most brilliant people to ever live (as I said previously) and even [I]they[I] (At least Eve) was decieved, tricked, by Satan.


heh, almost, immediately, Fully agreed with you there :lol:

Seems they would have been(and perhaps you are right), But If they were 'brilliant', Then I would think they Knew what they were doing when they ate, which would thereby nullify the 'traditional' view That they gained knowledge of good and evil from the tree. No ?

Athanasius
May 31st 2008, 04:46 AM
heh, almost, immediately, Fully agreed with you there :lol:

Seems they would have been(and perhaps you are right), But If they were 'brilliant', Then I would think they Knew what they were doing when they ate, which would thereby nullify the 'traditional' view That they gained knowledge of good and evil from the tree. No ?

Almost, eh? Drat!
I believe Adam and Eve had an understanding of good and evil partially in terms of right and wrong. I'm too tired to explain it now (and quite frankly, I don't know how to articulate my thoughts on this well enough), but I don't think Adam and Eve were completely oblivious to what good and evil were. I really don't think the fruit of the tree bestowed any sort of knowledge--it was a test, 'nothing more'. So... I guess I'm disagreeing with the traditional view?

Someone can feel free to correct me.

IamBill
May 31st 2008, 05:11 AM
Almost, eh? Drat!
I believe Adam and Eve had an understanding of good and evil partially in terms of right and wrong. I'm too tired to explain it now (and quite frankly, I don't know how to articulate my thoughts on this well enough), but I don't think Adam and Eve were completely oblivious to what good and evil were. I really don't think the fruit of the tree bestowed any sort of knowledge--it was a test, 'nothing more'. So... I guess I'm disagreeing with the traditional view?

Someone can feel free to correct me.
:pp :lol:
;)

Nope I agree, and I guess we both disagree with the traditional view there.
IMO, focus on the "fruit of the tree" (as we are told to in the NT) instead of it's "Name" reveals the tree to be of "death", and That is what God warned them of. "thou shalt surely Die".
also, is in 'contrast' to the Tree of Life.

But, I also read that they did gain something, which was actually a loss, and the reason why God did not want them to eat of it. the WHAT behind the Why, so to speak.

err, I'm tired too, I have to get back to this in the morn.

Duane Morse
May 31st 2008, 06:16 AM
They may have known, to some extent, between right and wrong.

But, if one is given only one choice...

... to learn more.

Which one of us would not choose to learn more?


After all, God is cryptic - to say the least.
He likes to put carrots before us.


If everything in the world was freely available to you, except one single thing...


And then that thing was made available.


What would you do?







It was a setup from before the beginning.

Teke
May 31st 2008, 02:50 PM
This makes more sense to me than trying to figure out who said what to whom, and who did or didn't hear what. It is more logical to say that Adam was working in concert with God's plan than it is to suggest he lost his mind. Death was added to the world because it was necessary, not because of some insane act of a deluded coward.

Yes, it is clear that Adam did not fear death. From an anthropic point of view, by the time of the Incarnation, humanity, and even Jesus in His humanity, was faced with fear of death. And as humanity is weakened by such fear, so it is a human passion that is a great ordeal to overcome, as exampled in the passion of Christ. Yet our Lord did just that.

Psychologically, such a fear can produce the oddest behavior from us, should we not be able to face it. True freedom includes the freedom from fear. As such fear can subject us to bondage, as Hebrews states.

Hbr 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Yet Jesus tells us that if He has set us free we are free indeed.

Jhn 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Free from death.

Diolectic
May 31st 2008, 03:56 PM
Gen 3:22 And God said, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, [he is] knowing good and evil now.
For fear that he (Adam) send forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eate and live forever,
:23 God sent him forth from the garden of Eden to serve the ground from which he has been taken;

Adam is now to serve the ground (Gen 3:17-19) from which he has been taken in contrast of serving God (Gen 2:15) from who he was created.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because you have listened unto the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it: cursed is the ground for your sake; in sorrow shall you eat of it all the days of your life;
:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field;
:19 In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return unto the ground; for out of it were you taken: for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return.
in contrast of...
Gen 2:15 And God takes the man, and causes him to rest in the garden of Eden, to serve it, and to keep it. (Heb 4:3a, Heb 4:10)

IamBill
May 31st 2008, 04:18 PM
Hi Diolectic, what version is this ?
KJV is very different

Gen 3:22 And God said, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, [he is] knowing good and evil now.
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

For fear that he (Adam) send forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eate and live forever,
and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

:23God sent him forth from the garden of Eden to serve the ground from which he has been taken;
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Gen 2:15 And God takes the man, and causes him to rest in the garden of Eden, to serve it, and to keep it.
2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

:hmm: Why is this so different ?

Diolectic
May 31st 2008, 06:11 PM
Hi Diolectic, what version is this ?
KJV is very different

Gen 3:22 And God said, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, [he is] knowing good and evil now.
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

For fear that he (Adam) send forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eate and live forever,
and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

:23God sent him forth from the garden of Eden to serve the ground from which he has been taken;
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Gen 2:15 And God takes the man, and causes him to rest in the garden of Eden, to serve it, and to keep it.
2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

:hmm: Why is this so different ?It is from the Young's Literal Translation.
I put it in a more understandable way that makes more sence, which still holds true to the original Hebrew.
Gen 3:22 The word "was" or "is become" is the Hebrew word H1961 -היה-hâyâh (haw-yaw').
The word is a passed tense of the word "to be" or "to exist".

Therefore, it makes more sense to use the word "was" which makes more sense in the context of the whole chapter.

Adam "was" as God being innocent, righteous, knowing only good.

It does not make sence to say that Adam "is become" like God being guilty, disobediant/rebelious, knowing evil now.

It is not different from the word "was" in these verses:
Gen 1:2a And the earth was...
Gen 1:5b and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:7 the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so

There are many other times where this word is used as was if you do a word search in E-sword for the Hebrew word H1961 hâyâh (haw-yaw').


Gen 2:15 And God takes the man, and causes him to rest in the garden:

The word "rest" is from the word H5117 נוּח nûach (noo'-akh)

It actualy means to rest, that is, settle down

Do a word search on the Hebrew #H5117
Gen 8:4 the Ark rested

Furthermore,It is not as God rested (desist from exertion or labor) from HIS work, because Adam still had to till/dress the garden, and to keep it, just as we are to "labor, exert ourselves" therefore to enter into that "rest"(Heb 4:11)

seamus414
May 31st 2008, 07:59 PM
Ge 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Ge 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Ge 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Ge 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

She did not say that Adam told her, she said "God hath said".

Just because the text does not include a conversation between the Lord and Eve does not mean it did not occur.

So to say it was all through Adam is also (even more) mere speculation.


That is not really definitive. Adam told her what God said so it is reasonable to say what she thought God said.

The passage is not particularly descriptive. I will conceed that God could have spoken to Eve directly if you conceed that it could have been Adam who told her directly. We just do not know for sure.

SIG
May 31st 2008, 08:08 PM
Well--I propose that as with any question from the early chapters of Genesis, the answers raise more questions than they answer....

So--

1) How could Adam and Eve even know what "die" (or death) meant if death was not yet in the creation?

2) Being created only "good," what was there in Eve that would be attracted to, or deceived by, a lie? (Jesus' refusal to be tempted in the wilderness comes to mind here.)

3) We know that Satan conceived evil in his own heart, and so fell from Heaven. Again, if we assume that God did not create darkness/evil, how was Satan able to conceive something entirely contrary to God's nature?

4) DID God create darkness/evil?

5) What role might (or might not) free will play in all this? What IS free will?

6) We were born with a sin nature; Adam and Eve were not. So, how can we understand how Adam and Eve, being created in God's image and without a sin nature, viewed anything?

Etc...

Again, each of these questions raises many others.

Guess all I can say here is:

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Scubadude
May 31st 2008, 08:19 PM
Well--I propose that as with any question from the early chapters of Genesis, the answers raise more questions than they answer....

So--

1) How could Adam and Eve even know what "die" (or death) meant if death was not yet in the creation?

2) Being created only "good," what was there in Eve that would be attracted to, or deceived by, a lie? (Jesus' refusal to be tempted in the wilderness comes to mind here.)

3) We know that Satan conceived evil in his own heart, and so fell from Heaven. Again, if we assume that God did not create darkness/evil, how was Satan able to conceive something entirely contrary to God's nature?

4) DID God create darkness/evil?

5) What role might (or might not) free will play in all this? What IS free will?

6) We were born with a sin nature; Adam and Eve were not. So, how can we understand how Adam and Eve, being created in God's image and without a sin nature, viewed anything?

Etc...

Again, each of these questions raises many others.

Guess all I can say here is:

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Hey, SIG

It's about time you got up. It's after 10am

Good questions, btw.

SIG
May 31st 2008, 08:31 PM
I'm a very hard worker--and OLD:D Sometimes I just need to sleep in...Shaloha!

IamBill
May 31st 2008, 08:57 PM
God said - 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eve said - 3:3
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die


Somebody added to God's word there :rolleyes:

Edit: So Seamus I ask again, How do you KNOW that ? OR RIGHTLY PUT, "what gives you reason to think that Adam may have relayed the info now that it is in front of you ?

Athanasius
Jun 1st 2008, 04:29 AM
Adam "was" as God being innocent, righteous, knowing only good.


Yeah, was thinking about this today because of last night. Existentially it doesn't make sense for Adam to have known both good and evil. Adam knew good... Now I doubt he knew evil.

timmyb
Jun 1st 2008, 02:38 PM
here's the Timmy Today Version... it has not been adopted by the church at large...

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was what it said it was. Were they going to give up their opinions of what was 'good' and what was 'evil' and accept what God called 'good' and what God called 'evil'... In this manner we all fail everyday...

Just a different twist on it..

IamBill
Jun 1st 2008, 10:36 PM
I don't think they were aware of their flesh, they didn't see it until after they ate.
so I find it hard to believe their flesh caused the fall.

Teke
Jun 2nd 2008, 12:59 PM
Here in bible chat we can only define the incident by what scripture tells us.
A couple things to note is that, 1) Eve was deceived, which by definition means she wasn't aware of her sin, and according to scripture that is a transgression forgivable by God. 2) Adam is the first man, and a type of Christ, so that is our comparison to make of what he did.

Another comparison we can make is of Eve, who is called mother of all living, and is a type of the church in the world. And Mary, who is mother of Christ, another example of a mother of all living, meaning alive in Christ. As Paul puts it, the first is of the flesh, and the second of spiritual, this is meant for our limited understanding.


1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.


To me this means the first relates of that which is of the world, and the second that which is of Spirit. The revelation of Jesus Christ is that both are joined in One new man acceptable and at peace with God and all mankind.

seamus414
Jun 2nd 2008, 03:40 PM
God said - 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eve said - 3:3
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die


Somebody added to God's word there :rolleyes:

Edit: So Seamus I ask again, How do you KNOW that ? OR RIGHTLY PUT, "what gives you reason to think that Adam may have relayed the info now that it is in front of you ?


We only have a very vague description in the Scriptures. We simply do not know if God or Adam told Eve what the "rules" were. IMO, logically speaking, as Eve could be deceived it would seem she did not have a full awareness of what God wanted which says, to me, Adam must have told her what God said as opposed to God telling her directly. Indeed, the fact that "somebody added to God's word there" would lead one to assume that she got her information from Adam not God.

I think the Scriptures are written rather precisely and one of my main points, which has been sort of ignored in this thread, is the role of the husband in the marriage. God explicity tells Adam in the Bible (this is not to say, definitively, he did not tell Eve directly, but it certainly does not say that he did in the BIble) as the husband is the spiritual head of the household and it was Adam's sin, not Eve's, that caused the fall as Paul said that sin entered the world through ONE MAN (Adam). This demonstrates the level of responsibility a husband has over his family.

IamBill
Jun 2nd 2008, 04:07 PM
Teke
As Paul puts it, the first is of the flesh, and the second of spiritual, this is meant for our limited understanding.

BUT ! :lol: (always a but somewhere hey ?)

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jesus was first "Made Flesh"
Adam was made in "God's image" (Spirit)

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ...
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him;...

Adam made = spirit-flesh
Jesus made = flesh-spirit
:hmm:

IamBill
Jun 2nd 2008, 04:22 PM
We only have a very vague description in the Scriptures. We simply do not know if God or Adam told Eve what the "rules" were. IMO, logically speaking, as Eve could be deceived it would seem she did not have a full awareness of what God wanted which says, to me, Adam must have told her what God said as opposed to God telling her directly. Indeed, the fact that "somebody added to God's word there" would lead one to assume that she got her information from Adam not God.

I think the Scriptures are written rather precisely and one of my main points, which has been sort of ignored in this thread, is the role of the husband in the marriage. God explicity tells Adam in the Bible (this is not to say, definitively, he did not tell Eve directly, but it certainly does not say that he did in the BIble) as the husband is the spiritual head of the household and it was Adam's sin, not Eve's, that caused the fall as Paul said that sin entered the world through ONE MAN (Adam). This demonstrates the level of responsibility a husband has over his family.
I can agree to that. But not necessarily "the rule", a lot of women these days are the ones keeping the hubbies in line

But most of all I agree with this - ""I think the Scriptures are written rather precisely"" - I'll suggest, VERY precisely. This IS the word of God or it is Not.
Comparing is fine, and very enlightening in many ways, but I think we err when we do not focus mainly on what IS written in the chapter.

fewarechosen
Jun 2nd 2008, 05:38 PM
the bible is scripture about the word -- the word is god.
remember the warning at the end of revelation about adding unto this book.

it does not say have no fear no one can add to this book.
someone can add to it in mistranslation, someone can add to it by preaching, but it doesnt matter the holy spirit is in us to decipher. god is living

the holy spirit is the word and the word is inside us.
scripture is here to help us not for us to help scripture.


18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


also notice how vainly we debate about this question and how it trips us up, we forget the simplicity of christ.

i type this when i should be feeding the hungry.
so i know nothing

IamBill
Jun 2nd 2008, 06:00 PM
Heading back toward the OP-

Note what IS Said -

color key=
God's words
Eve's words
satan's words


2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (What does Jesus tell us about trees and their Fruit? :hmm: )
side note -2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. (talking about privet parts ? ...where is your mind :lol: )
3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
They ate !
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

God does not lie, he said for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
They were created in God's image, what happened (died) when they ate ?
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;
(minds out of the gutter people, Think! )

Or- we take satan's word for what happened and what the fruit did :rolleyes:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

and let me emphisize this verse to show God's use of what we call Sarcasm

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The tree closed their spiritual eyes ! -They became "flesh"

fewarechosen
Jun 2nd 2008, 06:08 PM
Heading back toward the OP-

Note what IS Said -

color key=
God's words
Eve's words
satan's words


2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (What does Jesus tell us about trees and their Fruit? :hmm: )
side note -2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. (talking about privet parts ? ...where is your mind :lol: )
3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
They ate !
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

God does not lie, he said for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
They were created in God's image, what happened (died) when they ate ?
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;
(minds out of the gutter people, Think! )

Or- we take satan's word for what happened and what the fruit did :rolleyes:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

and let me emphisize this verse to show God's use of what we call Sarcasm

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The tree closed their spiritual eyes ! -They became "flesh"


totally agree with that and well explained.

and thanks for opening my eyes to something-- as many times as i read that, i never took note of the "the"

cool -- one more nugget of knowlege i can squander lol

its also i think why they say cast out of eden it isnt a place you can point to on a map

i think its also interesting to note that god says --lest he put forth his hand-- not lest i put forth his hand for him.

IamBill
Jun 2nd 2008, 07:01 PM
Can you see the "WHAT behind God's "why" ?

what God and satan both knew ?
the only truth of the tree in the words satan said to Eve ?


the "what"
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

The "why"
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

fewarechosen
Jun 2nd 2008, 07:25 PM
i thought it appropriate to share this here,

this is a instance of "god talking to me"

my post right before Iambills.

i say how we vainly debate.

the very next post bill types some information in a way that made me see it in a new light.

so he rebukes me for calling it vain and reminds me i am the poor, and have need that he feeds me

and then he affirms me rubs his hand in my hair and says see little one you didnt even know how right you were when you said " i know nothing" now carry on

so thanks god and thanks all for helping :)

divaD
Jun 2nd 2008, 09:45 PM
Can you see the "WHAT behind God's "why" ?

what God and satan both knew ?
the only truth of the tree in the words satan said to Eve ?


the "what"
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

The "why"
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.



5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing
good and evil


The only place that I can see where the serpent lied was this verse.

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:




Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Everything stated in this verse seems to be backed by Scripture as being true.

then your eyes shall be opened

You've already addressed that one.





and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

We need to keep in mind that the serpent was the most subtle of all the beasts of the field that God made. And we need to keep in mind the serpent's motive.

fewarechosen
Jun 2nd 2008, 10:23 PM
hmm this has me thinking -- notice they use the term "eyes" here meaning 2.

now notice this scripture he uses "eye" not eyes

The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.

could it sort of mean one eye that we first had was spiritual, then when we ate the fruit ---both--- eyes were open the second meaning flesh and earthly desires,

thats why we are told "when thine eye is single" -the spiritual

just a thought

IamBill
Jun 2nd 2008, 11:59 PM
DivaD:)
if you back up a few posts ..#68 you will understand the context of the post you quoted

God NEVER said ""and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.""

satan said that ..and most still buy it today ;)

Teke
Jun 3rd 2008, 12:11 AM
DivaD:)
if you back up a few posts ..#68 you will understand the context of the post you quoted

God NEVER said ""and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.""

satan said that ..and most still buy it today ;)

Satan isn't the only one that said something of that sort.

Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Jhn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

(ref. to Ps. 82:6)

divaD
Jun 3rd 2008, 12:59 AM
DivaD:)
if you back up a few posts ..#68 you will understand the context of the post you quoted

God NEVER said ""and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.""

satan said that ..and most still buy it today ;)




IamBill, I checked out post #68 again. I like what you did with the color keys. I guess I didn't realize your point the first time I read it, in relation to how you did the color keys thing. You have definitely given me something to consider.:)

IamBill
Jun 3rd 2008, 01:05 AM
TEKE :) ya had me for a minute there
First -John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Is Psalms the Law ?

Psalm 82
1 A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

(God to "the gods")
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the
persons of the wicked? Selah.

(God advising "the gods")
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
____
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations


John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Which scripture cannot be broken?

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,


gods ? or evil/deceived ?
:hmm:

fewarechosen
Jun 3rd 2008, 01:21 AM
i dont think gods --has to be as in good.

but sort of like angels being gods --unseen and not understood by us having power over us when god lets them.

but angels dont have to be good obviously like the 3rd of the stars

how about evil deceived gods lol

i think we need to start trying to figure whats a god ? at least i do lol
this is really making me think and pray

IamBill
Jun 3rd 2008, 02:42 AM
Aye, There are many gods, Not all voices are that of the Light!

Various religions, religious/symbols, leaders, saints.
we make gods of ourselves, we praise our own works.
money, toys, pastimes, even TV stars, rocks, animals, elements, you name it.

Yeah, we've got everything under control :rolleyes:


There is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD !

IamBill
Jun 3rd 2008, 02:52 AM
IamBill, I checked out post #68 again. I like what you did with the color keys. I guess I didn't realize your point the first time I read it, in relation to how you did the color keys thing. You have definitely given me something to consider.:)

:) neat hey, right there all along and all we have to do is Read it, even better, Have the Holy Spirit read it to us.

grptinHisHand
Jun 3rd 2008, 02:08 PM
I've been reading the great discussion here. I am thankful to God that He is faithful and true, that He is THE ONE TRUE GOD. I see that Satan wants to deceive us, but the Holy Spirit will reveal Satan's lies to us that they are lies if we will only stay in the Word, in Christ, walk in the Spirit, ... Praise His Holy Name for that! (How do I go about putting in the jumping, cheering smilie here?) :D
God is good, all the time.
All the time, God is good!
g

Scubadude
Jun 3rd 2008, 03:51 PM
Can you see the "WHAT behind God's "why" ?

what God and satan both knew ?
the only truth of the tree in the words satan said to Eve ?


the "what"
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

The "why"
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


I've been rereading all this. Can't help but think that the serpent is the most honest person in this story. They didn't die, and God was worried that their eyes will be opened. Eve lied "Don't touch it", Adam was silent "who was with her" and God had a hidden agenda "he is now like one of us". Maybe the point of this story is to show us we don't really understand what 'good' is?

IamBill
Jun 3rd 2008, 04:19 PM
I've been rereading all this. Can't help but think that the serpent is the most honest person in this story. They didn't die, and God was worried that their eyes will be opened. Eve lied "Don't touch it", Adam was silent "who was with her" and God had a hidden agenda "he is now like one of us". Maybe the point of this story is to show us we don't really understand what 'good' is?

:( ouch, God does not lie or deceive.

When a parent tells the child -

stay away from The Stove- it is Hot !

and the child puts a hand on it -and gets Burned

Did the parent deceive/lie to the child because they left out "get burned" ?

or did the child get burned because he/she did not trust the parent/warning- "HOT"?


They indeed died that day just as God said they would - the question is, What happened (died) ?
or would you rather trust satan ?

grptinHisHand
Jun 3rd 2008, 04:30 PM
They died spiritually. Just as that spiritual death was passed down to us.
g

Teke
Jun 3rd 2008, 05:15 PM
TEKE :) ya had me for a minute there
First -John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Is Psalms the Law ?

Psalm 82
1 A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

(God to "the gods")
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the
persons of the wicked? Selah.

(God advising "the gods")
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
____
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations


John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Which scripture cannot be broken?

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,


gods ? or evil/deceived ?
:hmm:

The Psalm nor Jesus is referring to anything evil. "Gods" is a reference to "sons of the Most High" in both instances (Psalm and Jesus words) of use in scripture.

"The law" means, canon of scripture used by the church.

IamBill
Jun 3rd 2008, 05:17 PM
They died spiritually. Just as that spiritual death was passed down to us.
g

:pp :pp :pp

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona:
for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. :pp

:pp :pp :pp

IamBill
Jun 3rd 2008, 05:20 PM
"The law" means, canon of scripture used by the church.

I agree with that :)

theleast
Jun 3rd 2008, 05:21 PM
Satan tempted the woman; Adam made a conscious choice, freely.

Did he? All I remember the scripture saying is that she gave it to him and he ate it.

Genesis 3 16

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was pleasant to the eyes and a tree to be desired to make one wise she took the fruit threeof and did eat and gave also to her husband with her and he did eat.

It never states Adam knew of which fruit he had tasted prior to consuming it.

Buck shot
Jun 3rd 2008, 06:20 PM
Did he? All I remember the scripture saying is that she gave it to him and he ate it.

Genesis 3 16

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was pleasant to the eyes and a tree to be desired to make one wise she took the fruit threeof and did eat and gave also to her husband with her and he did eat.

It never states Adam knew of which fruit he had tasted prior to consuming it.

Let's say you were told that you were told that you were allergic to one kind of plant. If you eat that plant you would surely die. Now you go to a vegetable buffet to fill you plate with goodies. Would you know which one not to eat? Of course, because you would been able to recongize something that is that important to you.

To say that Adam might not have recongnized the fruit is like saying he did not understand what God had told him.

Can you tell which fruit is orange, banana, grapefruit, ... in the store? Same thing.:rolleyes:

grptinHisHand
Jun 3rd 2008, 06:41 PM
Again (as in post #10), I point to the Scripture that says that Adam was not deceived. I believe that means he DID know what fruit he was accepting when Eve gave it to him.
(This time I have the correct book.:D)
g

divaD
Jun 3rd 2008, 06:50 PM
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was pleasant to the eyes and a tree to be desired to
make one wise she took the fruit threeof and did eat and gave also to her husband with her and he did eat.

It never states Adam knew of which fruit he had tasted prior to consuming it.

How do you come to that conclusion? How could Adam not know what fruit this was? Did you not notice the last part of that verse?


And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was pleasant to the eyes and a tree to be desired to
make one wise she took the fruit threeof and did eat and gave also to her husband WITH HER and he did eat


I realize that many claim that Adam wasn't present when Eve encountered the serpent, that he came along later.
That's not what Scripture states.

IamBill
Jun 3rd 2008, 07:29 PM
How do you come to that conclusion? How could Adam not know what fruit this was? Did you not notice the last part of that verse?


And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was pleasant to the eyes and a tree to be desired to
make one wise she took the fruit threeof and did eat and gave also to her husband WITH HER and he did eat


I realize that many claim that Adam wasn't present when Eve encountered the serpent, that he came along later.
That's not what Scripture states.

:) It's right there :thumbsup:

Teke
Jun 3rd 2008, 07:43 PM
They died spiritually. Just as that spiritual death was passed down to us.
g

Scripture doesn't say this.

grptinHisHand
Jun 3rd 2008, 07:50 PM
NKJV Rom 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

****19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

fewarechosen
Jun 3rd 2008, 07:52 PM
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

now i find this interesting to note -- remember adam was not deceived
he just chose to follow after women like many do today

and i think some will have a different understanding of this scripture
21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Teke
Jun 3rd 2008, 07:59 PM
NKJV Rom 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

****19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

:confused What does that have to do with spiritual death....the verses are on justification of humanity.

grptinHisHand
Jun 3rd 2008, 08:11 PM
These verses ARE on justification by Christ. I agree.
But why else would we need justification were it not for our sin. And these verses clearly show that it was by Adam's sin that the judgement came to all men.

I don't see what you disagree with in my post. Perhaps I am dense?

Sin separates from God. That is spiritual death. This came through one man (Adam).

v 18 ... as through one man's offense judgement came to all men...
v 19 ... by his disobedience many were made sinners ...

fewarechosen
Jun 3rd 2008, 08:32 PM
hmmm this is just for arguments sake :)

imagine being with your wife , and shes the only woman on the planet and you know not of sin or mistrust.

now you are in a huge garden more lush than imaginable. lets imagine rows of trees and your sort of walking through trying different stuff . now mind you you are both with eachother, you look and see a cool tree that has fruit on it and wander over while your wife wanders over to another and your sort of trading fruits and such. now you walk over to one tree and grab some fruit while your wife goes to another just a little over.

now then the wife gets tempted by the serpent, just a few paces away yet you have your back turned on another tree. so your still with eachother in the garden.
now mind you the tree she picked the fruit from was pure poison --you eat it you die no exceptions.

she comes back over to you says try this you dont think twice and take a bite -- game over.

we can assume the fruit looked vastly different or look very similar just like tons of different types of apples or whatever but thats all speculation.

adam didnt gaurd himself and question anything just being carried away with being happy. eating the fruit was a sin no matter knowing it or not , you cant eat poison then say im not poisond cause i didnt know it.

now put it in context , how often today do we see a woman say lets buy this for the house or lets do this, and the man just grumbles ok sure --not thinking twice just going with the flow. not thinking to say well is this truly what god wants. hes more concerned with the wife than god.

just a thought :)

theleast
Jun 3rd 2008, 08:44 PM
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

now i find this interesting to note -- remember adam was not deceived
he just chose to follow after women like many do today

and i think some will have a different understanding of this scripture
21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

QFT

Nowhere in scripture does it say Adam knew of which fruit he was eating but it does say that Adam was not decieved.

IamBill
Jun 3rd 2008, 08:54 PM
Scripture doesn't say this.

so then ...God lied ?

IamBill
Jun 3rd 2008, 08:57 PM
Err we are getting right back into the "who to blame"

The OP is - The cause of Adams fall is the flesh:

fewarechosen
Jun 3rd 2008, 09:01 PM
so true bill lol ---- for the record i blame both :)

in that day they died thats for sure-- but not the kind of death we often think of -- cause obviously they had children.





21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

but then some will say thats fur coats

theleast
Jun 3rd 2008, 09:14 PM
Yes I am not interested in the blame game. Adam and Eve both failed in listening to God thus they were both given punishments.

If it was just Eve's fault wouldn't she have gotten the punishment and not Adam?

IamBill
Jun 3rd 2008, 09:40 PM
so true bill lol ---- for the record i blame both :)

in that day they died thats for sure-- but not the kind of death we often think of -- cause obviously they had children.

but as far as flesh causing the sin, they didnt have flesh yet.

thats what this passage is for

21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

but then some will say thats fur coats

;)
We do know God "cursed" the serpent, and he cursed the earth, as far as what God said to A/E, Is really nothing more that what they NOW have to deal with, "Flesh". pain in childbirth, toil, till, and sweat out their living.

Yes they didn't need clothes before that, they either didn't realize/See that they were flesh, Or they were Not flesh.
I believe 'the former' since they were made from the dust of the earth

But here is the thing, For 100's of years Man has been taught, or perhaps, It has been "subtly Implied" that God is the one who deceived/lied, and the serpent spilled the truth!

God said - "thou shalt surely die"
serpent said - "Ye shall not surely die"
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
(using ref. to the NAME of the tree- A DECEPTIVE LIE)
Proof ? -The FRUIT caused what ?
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

No "great Knowledge of good and evil" there --The DIED just like God said they would
Nothing GODLIKE, they where sent to "live in the Flesh". ---- GODS ?

In 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil
(reiterating the LIE that they bought)
:)
The tree was 'Death' regardless of it's Name

SIG
Jun 3rd 2008, 09:58 PM
The Fall was great--They died spiritually, physically (eventually), and in every way. Not only that, the whole creation was subject to death along with them (see Romans 8).

As for blame--the serpent, the man, the woman, and even the Earth (thorns and thistles shall spring up) were cursed.

Before eating, they knew only good--so when they ate, all they gained was a knowledge of evil. They gained a knowledge of the flesh (awareness of their nakedness); Paul states that no good exists in his flesh.

The serpent lied in every way--Jesus refers to him as "a liar and murderer from the beginning"...

So, again, if they sinned before having their flesh nature, what was it in them that was easily deceived by or attracted to a lie?

IamBill
Jun 3rd 2008, 10:10 PM
Well. at minimum they had "desire", perhaps a touch of 'greed', they were certainly interested in having more then they had.

But that negates "knowing only good"

The serpent didn't lie about "their eyes being opened"

fewarechosen
Jun 3rd 2008, 10:34 PM
i think we might differ here slightly but not sure yet,

see i think and its just think cause i havent prayed or pondered this long enough.

our eyes were opened on that day we have knowlege of good and evil --but we choose evil.

its opening the pandoras box of sin. there is god - the one good thing and the truth-then there is the massive amount of evil that mankind became aware of--murder,rape all that stuff that man chose after eating the fruit. adam and eve did not have knowledge of such things beforehand only after.

as far as being clothed in skins, it isnt the same as clothing because even before god clothed them they were making clothes out of leaves or whatever--so that phrase isnt talking about giving them knowledge of making clothes.

but then again i have lots of praying to do , and after all i could be spreading lies :) so we cant ever take my word for it.

and god was sort of being sarcastic yet still telling the truth when he said now they have knowledge of good and evil, meaning you asked for it now you got it.

and also i think the small case gods says it all its not saying you will be like God but like gods

divaD
Jun 3rd 2008, 10:44 PM
so true bill lol ---- for the record i blame both :)

in that day they died thats for sure-- but not the kind of death we often think of -- cause obviously they had children.

but as far as flesh causing the sin, they didnt have flesh yet.

thats what this passage is for

21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

but then some will say thats fur coats



Doesn't that go against what Scripture states otherwise?


Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the FLESH instead thereof;


Personally, I have always interpreted the coats of skin to be the first animal sacrificed for sins, or something of that nature.

fewarechosen
Jun 3rd 2008, 10:54 PM
good point diva.

to which you may be totally correct.
but its sort of like the flesh he first had wasnt like the skins --that flesh wasnt flesh as it is now corruptable aging , cancerous or any other thing. so when he gives them skins thats what i think he is talking about. like before the fruit was eaten. our flesh had no worries like that--adam didnt have to worry about climbing a tree and falling and breaking his neck-- no death. so the flesh is not that same as it was back then. it could have been very much the same --but when he gave them skins that was all the corruptable things we now know it as.

and i definatly spoke incorrectly saying they didnt have flesh, so thanks for pointing that out -- i edited it out of that last post , just cause thats way off lol

davidandme
Jun 3rd 2008, 11:48 PM
The reason of why Adam and Eve sinned, is the same reason why the devil sinned. All of them question the word of God and His laws.

Yukerboy
Jun 3rd 2008, 11:55 PM
But poor Eve was deceived, right?

And notice, for those feminists out there, God didn't say Eve, Eve what have you done?

No, God said "Hey ADAM! Where you at, boy? We need to talk!"

Of course I'm paraphrasing, but it wasn't Satan, or Eve God first went to after the original sin, no, it was the MAN that was held responsible for allowing his helpmeet to be deceived.

Yuke

davidandme
Jun 4th 2008, 12:17 AM
Adam and Even sinned for the same reason that the devil sinned. They both doubted God's word and Laws.

Scubadude
Jun 4th 2008, 03:29 AM
:( ouch, God does not lie or deceive.

I don't think God lies.



When a parent tells the child -

stay away from The Stove- it is Hot !

and the child puts a hand on it -and gets Burned

Did the parent deceive/lie to the child because they left out "get burned" ?

or did the child get burned because he/she did not trust the parent/warning- "HOT"?

When God tells Adam not to do something, then throws a serpent into the story to convince them otherwise, something is going on that is good, but on the level of "Devine insidiousness".



They indeed died that day just as God said they would - the question is, What happened (died) ?
or would you rather trust satan ?


No! They did not indeed die that day. If you think they died spiritually, it is only because you are accustomed to the traditional interpretation. Most Christians add that bit to the story, but there is no suggestion they died in the story. Adam brought death to all mankind, as God decided to cut off access to the tree of life and live forever, then shortened our lifespan even more as people were still living several hundred years.

And, Satan is better than you at arguing scripture.

Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 03:32 AM
I've always believed it was spiritiual and flesh death.

In the flesh, Adam did not die that day, obviously. However, day is yohm in the Hebrew, which has been translated as years, forever and ever, and other periods of time.

Now, spiritually....Adam would be dead in his sins when he sinned, as all are.

Yuke

Scubadude
Jun 4th 2008, 03:40 AM
I've always believed it was spiritiual and flesh death.

In the flesh, Adam did not die that day, obviously. However, day is yohm in the Hebrew, which has been translated as years, forever and ever, and other periods of time.

Now, spiritually....Adam would be dead in his sins when he sinned, as all are.

Yuke


Where in Gen. does if suggest Adam or Eve died spiritually? You are adding that to the story. There was still a lot of conversation going on with God after the event for being dead. I'm not following the 'spiritually dead' argument in GENESIS.

Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 03:46 AM
Where in Gen. does if suggest Adam or Eve died spiritually?

It doesn't.


You are adding that to the story.

I'm inferring. I believe that all men are dead in their sins. Once Adam and Eve sinned, I infer that they are then also dead spiritually in their sins, as all who sin are. Adding sounds so....blasphemous.


I'm not following the 'spiritually dead' argument in GENESIS.

Spiritually dead is never mentioned until the New Testament, but I always believed that being spiritually dead would also apply to Old Testament men and women also as they also would have sinned and come short of the Glory of God, being dead in their sins until Christ came.

I'm open to saying I could be wrong.

Yuke

Scubadude
Jun 4th 2008, 08:33 AM
Once Adam and Eve sinned, I infer that they are then also dead spiritually in their sins, as all who sin are.

I understand that you are inferring. If they were dead spiritually, how do you account for the conversations God had with Adam and Eve (and others) after the seen at the tree? If everyone was therefore dead in sin, why so many conversations with God? Either God still talks to the spiritually dead, or being spiritually dead doesn't matter to God so much. Or, some third option I'm not thinking of.



Spiritually dead is never mentioned until the New Testament, but I always believed that being spiritually dead would also apply to Old Testament men and women also as they also would have sinned and come short of the Glory of God, being dead in their sins until Christ came.


Are you suggesting a kind of spiritually dead Darwinism? Or, it sounds similar to what archaeologists do when they find something in the present age, then try to extrapolate backwards into ancient times to understand what things must have been like back then.

Falling asleep at the key board.

Teke
Jun 4th 2008, 01:17 PM
These verses ARE on justification by Christ. I agree.
But why else would we need justification were it not for our sin. And these verses clearly show that it was by Adam's sin that the judgement came to all men.

If your looking at Adam's decision as a sin which makes all mankind guilty then that might be true. However, you cannot pass the guilt of one persons sin to others, scripture is clear on that (everyone is responsible for their own sin). So then this has to be seen in another way.

If you look at it as Adam responding to his wife and creation in general, then you just see a human being with feelings and faith. And, as always, God responds to such. In this case, His decision is to put man in the same cycle as the rest of creation, which will bring about his salvation. Salvation being that which puts off corruption and puts on righteousness, as in the seed analogy in scripture. Because you can't stay a seed and become a fruitful plant in the created order of God. The seed has to come forth from it's casing to become a plant.

1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

1Cr 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.

1Cr 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


There is no guilt in the created order God established in creation. There is no righteousness either without God.



I don't see what you disagree with in my post. Perhaps I am dense?

Sin separates from God. That is spiritual death. This came through one man (Adam).

v 18 ... as through one man's offense judgement came to all men...
v 19 ... by his disobedience many were made sinners ...

Nothing separates us from God. Paul was fully persuaded of this.


Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



In Rom. 3:28 we see that it is not a matter of "law", it is a matter of God.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Scripture proves this out when we compare that which man believes is righteous to that which God sees as righteous. As David says in the Psalms, "my righteousness of God" or "God of my righteousness".

As God says to Israel, "Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart..."

Righteousness is of God, as Jesus says, "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt. 6:33

Mankind will always fall short of the righteousness of God, because he doesn't possess such righteousness, only God does.

Also, it is not the nature of God to do evil. So what He does with Adam and all humanity is good. He doesn't wish for their destruction by death, but their salvation to life. So His command/judgment is toward this goal, which is His plan that man cannot change.

Teke
Jun 4th 2008, 01:21 PM
It doesn't.



I'm inferring. I believe that all men are dead in their sins. Once Adam and Eve sinned, I infer that they are then also dead spiritually in their sins, as all who sin are. Adding sounds so....blasphemous.



Spiritually dead is never mentioned until the New Testament, but I always believed that being spiritually dead would also apply to Old Testament men and women also as they also would have sinned and come short of the Glory of God, being dead in their sins until Christ came.

I'm open to saying I could be wrong.

Yuke

The only death we can associate spiritually is that of baptism. If we die in baptism and are resurrected, then we were never dead in the first place.

IamBill
Jun 4th 2008, 02:08 PM
I've been rereading all this. Can't help but think that the serpent is the most honest person in this story. They didn't die, and God was worried that their eyes will be opened. Eve lied "Don't touch it", Adam was silent "who was with her" and God had a hidden agenda "he is now like one of us". Maybe the point of this story is to show us we don't really understand what 'good' is?


Originally Posted by IamBill View Post
ouch, God does not lie or deceive.

When a parent tells the child -

stay away from The Stove- it is Hot !

and the child puts a hand on it -and gets Burned

Did the parent deceive/lie to the child because they left out "get burned" ?

or did the child get burned because he/she did not trust the parent/warning- "HOT"?
They indeed died that day just as God said they would - the question is, What happened (died) ?
or would you rather trust satan ?



I don't think God lies.

When God tells Adam not to do something, then throws a serpent into the story to convince them otherwise, something is going on that is good, but on the level of "Devine insidiousness".


No! They did not indeed die that day. If you think they died spiritually, it is only because you are accustomed to the traditional interpretation. Most Christians add that bit to the story, but there is no suggestion they died in the story. Adam brought death to all mankind, as God decided to cut off access to the tree of life and live forever, then shortened our lifespan even more as people were still living several hundred years.

And, Satan is better than you at arguing scripture.
No doubt ! And better at insulting than any of us btw
"tradition" in MY interpretation - You ASSUME much.

So.. are you insisting that God Lied about Dieing and was intentionally deceived A/E ??
They lived, what ? around 900 years in flesh, so God Lied ?

Do you also consider yourself a god knowing good and evil ? since you feel -

Can't help but think that the serpent is the most honest person in this story.
after all these were satan's words -
"Ye shall not surely die"
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

You may want to read this post carefully-
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1660311#post1660311

grptinHisHand
Jun 4th 2008, 02:15 PM
Teke, you wrote, "Nothing separates us from God. Paul was fully persuaded of this."

That is true for those of us who have received Christ, as I believe that is who Paul is writing to here.

But: Sin does separate us from God!
What about the following verse:?

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.

Athanasius
Jun 4th 2008, 02:16 PM
Hey Scubadude. Do you have a perfect spiritual relationship with God, or has it been corrupted by Sin?

theleast
Jun 4th 2008, 02:18 PM
But poor Eve was deceived, right?

And notice, for those feminists out there, God didn't say Eve, Eve what have you done?

No, God said "Hey ADAM! Where you at, boy? We need to talk!"

Of course I'm paraphrasing, but it wasn't Satan, or Eve God first went to after the original sin, no, it was the MAN that was held responsible for allowing his helpmeet to be deceived.

Yuke

Excellent point. To also put it another way I supervise an entire shift where I work. If something goes wrong on my shift the powers that be, in this case the general manager, isn't going to go up to my subordinates for an explanation. He is going to come straight to me. I ultimitly am responsible for everything that occurs on my shift. Adam was charged with dominion over the garden of eden and Eve was his companion. Adam was responsible for her as well as himself.

Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 02:19 PM
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins. As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins. God made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions.

Being dead in sin is a spiritual dead.

Teke
Jun 4th 2008, 02:51 PM
Teke, you wrote, "Nothing separates us from God. Paul was fully persuaded of this."

That is true for those of us who have received Christ, as I believe that is who Paul is writing to here.

But: Sin does separate us from God!
What about the following verse:?

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.

That verse isn't relating being dead spiritually because of sin. Do you realize that if you were actually dead spiritually, you couldn't repent of sin. ex. God is Spirit and those that worship Him do so in spirit.

What the Isaiah verse is relating, is that if you don't repent there is no mercy.
God is able to save, but he will not have mercy where there is no repentance. This is why scripture says not to harden your heart.;)

This is how God shows His righteousness, by His mercy.

This is why we pray without ceasing, Lord have mercy. :)

IamBill
Jun 4th 2008, 03:58 PM
This is why we MUST be "born again"

Scubadude
Jun 4th 2008, 04:02 PM
No doubt ! And better at insulting than any of us btw
"tradition" in MY interpretation - You ASSUME much.

So.. are you insisting that God Lied about Dieing and was intentionally deceived A/E ??
They lived, what ? around 900 years in flesh, so God Lied ?

Do you also consider yourself a god knowing good and evil ? since you feel -

after all these were satan's words -
"Ye shall not surely die"
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

You may want to read this post carefully-
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1660311#post1660311


Are you calling me the Anti-Christ, Bill? You need to calm down. And to that end, let me try to answer with something I already said and you chose not to address.

When God tells Adam not to do something, then throws a serpent into the story to convince them otherwise, something is going on that is good, but on the level of "Devine insidiousness".

And:

If you think they died spiritually, it is only because you are accustomed to the traditional interpretation. Most Christians add that bit to the story, but there is no suggestion they died in the story.


So, why did God put the Serpent into the garden to tempt A/E? Where in the text does it show any death besides the animals for skins?

I don't think I have all the answers, Bill. I'm just asking questions. Please try not to call me evil. How have I insulted you?

grptinHisHand
Jun 4th 2008, 04:23 PM
I don't understand anyone thinking God "put" the serpent in the garden. Satan disobeyed God and put himself there.
Am I wrong?
g

IamBill
Jun 4th 2008, 04:46 PM
Nice twist there Scuba, nor is being "riled" part of my life, :) do you know me?

The Ref. to Archer's post was to point out ""thinking we are gods knowing good and evil" ..you should have caught that, as it was the context following the question was it not?. (btw, 'THE'antiChrist is myth)

And I didn't respond to those two points because to even "think" God "tossed the serpent in" to contradict Gods own words, is well, not worth responding to -IMO
Nor have I been a member of ANY organized religion, so again, do you know me and my 'traditional' views ?

and, scuba, I have showed scripture answered the questions as to "death"
which comes down to --Did GOD lie OR did satan Lie ?
IOW- Did they Die, or did they become gods ?
These were your words -
Can't help but think that the serpent is the most honest person in this story.

IamBill
Jun 4th 2008, 05:06 PM
I don't think I have all the answers, Bill. I'm just asking questions. Please try not to call me evil. How have I insulted you?

Oh and also, as to this ?


Originally Posted by Scubadude View Post
And, Satan is better than you at arguing scripture.

Is such a remark necessary ?

I am not here to argue scripture
:)

Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 05:09 PM
God "put" the serpent in the garden

How about God allowed the serpent into the garden.

Yuke

theleast
Jun 4th 2008, 05:20 PM
I don't understand anyone thinking God "put" the serpent in the garden. Satan disobeyed God and put himself there.
Am I wrong?
g

Everything God has done has been with purpose. I don't pretend to know the mind of God. Satan was created by God as we were and Satan was created with a purpose.

theleast
Jun 4th 2008, 05:28 PM
Nice twist there Scuba, nor is being "riled" part of my life, :) do you know me?

The Ref. to Archer's post was to point out ""thinking we are gods knowing good and evil" ..you should have caught that, as it was the context following the question was it not?. (btw, 'THE'antiChrist is myth)

And I didn't respond to those two points because to even "think" God "tossed the serpent in" to contradict Gods own words, is well, not worth responding to -IMO
Nor have I been a member of ANY organized religion, so again, do you know me and my 'traditional' views ?

and, scuba, I have showed scripture answered the questions as to "death"
which comes down to --Did GOD lie OR did satan Lie ?
IOW- Did they Die, or did they become gods ?
These were your words -
Can't help but think that the serpent is the most honest person in this story.

Did the serpent lie? Excellent question actually. The serpent lied in saying "Ye will surely not die." Genesis Chapter 3 Verse 4

Did the serpent tell the truth? Excellent question again. The serpent telled the truth in Verse 5 "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

So the serpent both lied AND told the truth. The serpent was created to fulfill a purpose by God, for God made everything with a purpose. So let us not bicker amongst ourselves whether the serpent lied or told the truth or was put in the garden or crept in. It matters not. What matters is that there be not a division amongst us, but that we follow Christs commandments in love.

Teke
Jun 4th 2008, 05:35 PM
Everything God has done has been with purpose. I don't pretend to know the mind of God. Satan was created by God as we were and Satan was created with a purpose.

He is a testy lil pest to us. Even the Lord was tested by him in the wilderness.

1Cr 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

SIG
Jun 4th 2008, 05:52 PM
As I mentioned in seemingly-invisible post #105, Jesus Himself describes Satan as "a liar and murderer from the beginning"...

And of course his lies are most effective when mixed with a measure of truth.

fewarechosen
Jun 4th 2008, 06:02 PM
Did the serpent lie? Excellent question actually. The serpent lied in saying "Ye will surely not die." Genesis Chapter 3 Verse 4

Did the serpent tell the truth? Excellent question again. The serpent telled the truth in Verse 5 "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

So the serpent both lied AND told the truth. The serpent was created to fulfill a purpose by God, for God made everything with a purpose. So let us not bicker amongst ourselves whether the serpent lied or told the truth or was put in the garden or crept in. It matters not. What matters is that there be not a division amongst us, but that we follow Christs commandments in love.


good reminder that it doesnt matter, i forget that all the time

Teke
Jun 4th 2008, 06:43 PM
As I mentioned in seemingly-invisible post #105, Jesus Himself describes Satan as "a liar and murderer from the beginning"...

And of course his lies are most effective when mixed with a measure of truth.

This ole board friend didn't miss that point Sig. :hug: (Good to see you around)

I agree with you in that the serpent is a type of false prophet/preacher/evangelist etc. But I think the thing is, is that, that has nothing to do with what Adam does.

If we look at it from that perspective, then man is responsible for his choice whether he is influenced in doing so or not. And that goes both ways, whether it is for good or for evil. I just believe that Adam's choice was a righteous one, for a righteous cause, and he had faith in his heavenly Father knowing He would know what to do.

Teke
Jun 4th 2008, 07:06 PM
A bit more to further the thought in my previous post.
Human nature, our soul, as God created it has not been obliterated or corrupted, it remains neutral, meaning it can do either good or evil even though bondage to death and the influence of the devil can dull our perception of what is good and lead us into all sorts of evil.

As for the serpent, he lied. He lied when he told them they wouldn't die, meaning suffer death and decay in the grave as punishment. He also lied when he told them all they had to do was eat some fruit and become "as gods", meaning theosis/deification/glorification, which only comes through obedience to God, not from eating fruit. God sanctifies us, we don't sanctify ourselves, especially with food.;)

Scubadude
Jun 5th 2008, 03:31 AM
Glad to see you around. I think I stepped in it.



(Just in case anyone is uncertain, this is me, stepping out of it)


http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_11_60.gif

Teke
Jun 5th 2008, 12:48 PM
It would seem the moral of the story isn't about the flesh, but about the choices we make and how they effect others. Were Adam failed Christ triumphed.
Adam the natural earthy man, chose to take the fruit and eat it, not heading the will of the Father, whereas Christ, the spiritual man, chose to pray and face death in obedience to the will of the Father.

As is written, "there is a way which seemeth right to a man, but the end thereof is death".
So remember to "pray without ceasing".

And repent when you know you are wrong, take responsibility for your actions and God will redeem you as He did Adam.

Duane Morse
Jun 5th 2008, 05:58 PM
Where in the Bible does it say that Adam either repented or was redeemed?

Teke
Jun 5th 2008, 08:12 PM
Where in the Bible does it say that Adam either repented or was redeemed?

Hi Duane. :)
That he confessed to God what he did is usually seen as repentance. And that he walked out of the garden alive is evidence that God showed him mercy, meaning he forgave him (redeemed him). Later through Adam's genealogy The Redeemer is manifest to all mankind.

Duane Morse
Jun 5th 2008, 08:41 PM
Admitting you did something is not the same as repenting.

And just because God did not blast Adam with a lightning bolt does not mean Adam was forgiven.

I think you are making assumptions with very slim evidence.

Teke
Jun 5th 2008, 09:08 PM
Admitting you did something is not the same as repenting.

And just because God did not blast Adam with a lightning bolt does not mean Adam was forgiven.

I think you are making assumptions with very slim evidence.

Well scripture says he was a type of Christ. So what do you deduce from that?

SIG
Jun 5th 2008, 10:03 PM
Now there's an interesting question....

In exactly what way was Adam a type of Christ? I just found this teaching by John Piper which I consider incisive:

http://www.desiringgod.org/resourcelibrary/Sermons/ByDate/2007/2348_The_Fatal_Disobedience_of_Adam_and_the_Triump hant_Obedience_of_Christ/

Teke
Jun 6th 2008, 12:52 AM
Now there's an interesting question....

In exactly what way was Adam a type of Christ? I just found this teaching by John Piper which I consider incisive:

http://www.desiringgod.org/resourcelibrary/Sermons/ByDate/2007/2348_The_Fatal_Disobedience_of_Adam_and_the_Triump hant_Obedience_of_Christ/

Interesting article. I can't get past the condemnation part, since there is no condemnation in Christ.I believe God discerns (judges) for the needs of mankind, not against.

Duane Morse
Jun 6th 2008, 08:21 AM
Well scripture says he was a type of Christ. So what do you deduce from that?
Nothing.

It is a comparison - nothing more.
And an opposite comparison at that.

Adam led into death, while Jesus leads into Life.

It is more of an anti-type, if you ask me.

ProDeo
Jun 6th 2008, 10:37 AM
When God tells Adam not to do something, then throws a serpent into the story to convince them otherwise, something is going on that is good, but on the level of "Devine insidiousness".

I beg your pardon?

Why (in the first place) didn't A&E eat from the "Tree of Life" (and live!!!!!) which was standing next to the "Tree of the knowledge of good and evil"? Compare Gen 2:9 vs Gen 3:3.

Use your imagination of the story, A&E were in the midst of the garden, seeing both trees, yet their entire focus is on the wrong tree. Besides all the lies and half truths of satan others already pointed out why didn't Mister Liar not told the whole story, the story of to the Tree of Life as well? Now who is insidiousness here? It certainly isn't God.

And as a general remark and question, why on Earth A&E never eat from the Tree of Life and live? Is there a lesson to be learned here?

Ed

Teke
Jun 6th 2008, 12:28 PM
Nothing.

It is a comparison - nothing more.
And an opposite comparison at that.

Adam led into death, while Jesus leads into Life.

It is more of an anti-type, if you ask me.

Do you apply the same principle to all types referenced in scripture, their all opposite comparisons.
I don't. If I don't see the type referenced, then I conclude that I'm not understanding what is meant.
The only difference is stated by Paul, that being that Adam was an earthy man and Christ the spiritual man. To me, that is what I am to understand. As Paul also says that the earthy/carnal man doesn't understand spiritual things.

The NT clearly says that if you are ignorant of these things your not held accountable. But Adam's eyes were opened to good and evil after he ate of the fruit. According to bible history from that time on man is held accountable for his actions whether good or evil. Seems like God's plan to me.

There is also the question of whether or not the two trees are purposely put there to be joined together by man and God. Which is another way of seeing Christ in the story.

Teke
Jun 6th 2008, 12:36 PM
And as a general remark and question, why on Earth A&E never eat from the Tree of Life and live? Is there a lesson to be learned here?

Ed


Well Ed, that brings up more questions. If we go with the statements made about Christ in the NT, believers are to continually partake of Christ, the Life giving Font. And He has joined all in One, then even with the fruit from one tree we have to partake of the other continually to have eternal life.

Makes one wonder if the tree of good and evil is really just a revelation that once revealed one becomes responsible in.

Duane Morse
Jun 6th 2008, 09:04 PM
The NT clearly says that if you are ignorant of these things your not held accountable. But Adam's eyes were opened to good and evil after he ate of the fruit. According to bible history from that time on man is held accountable for his actions whether good or evil. Seems like God's plan to me.


So then, since Adam eye's were closed until after he ate, do you consider Adam unaccountable?

Teke
Jun 7th 2008, 12:51 AM
So then, since Adam eye's were closed until after he ate, do you consider Adam unaccountable?

Not completely, as it would seem that he had to do penance in that he is kept from the garden.

ProDeo
Jun 7th 2008, 11:46 AM
Well Ed, that brings up more questions. If we go with the statements made about Christ in the NT, believers are to continually partake of Christ, the Life giving Font. And He has joined all in One, then even with the fruit from one tree we have to partake of the other continually to have eternal life.

Makes one wonder if the tree of good and evil is really just a revelation that once revealed one becomes responsible in.

For sure Eve.

Gen 2:17 But of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you may not take; for on the day when you take of it, death will certainly come to you.

One might wonder why God planted the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the first place and secondly forbid A&E to eat from it. Was it just a test or is there something deeper than that? Did death enter the world as a punishment from God for disobedience or was it an automatic result, cause and effect so to say.

And thirdly, why did God plant the tree of life also.

To make things more complicated, why did God only say "do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil", why did God not continue to say, "but eat from the tree of life instead and live". That information we read after the disobedience of A&E. One might even wonder if A&E were aware of the information. This all together is quite a puzzle.

Then this:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Suppose A&E would had obeyed God and did not eat from the tree of knowledge of good of evil then according Eph 1:4 we would still be predestinated in Christ for God's pleasure. But then without the knowledge of good and evil?

Lots of questions, it's tempting to start a new thread for each :D

Ed

Teke
Jun 7th 2008, 01:10 PM
I think I'll start a thread on the trees and what they may mean to us in light of Christ. :)

divaD
Jun 7th 2008, 02:12 PM
One might wonder why God planted the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the first place and secondly forbid A&E to
eat from it.


Why do you suggest that God planted this tree?

Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil

According to this, every tree that God grew out of the ground was pleasent to the sight, and good for food.


Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Now think for a second. Does it sound like this tree is pleasant to the sight, and good for food?


Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.



Notice what happens here in verse 6. The woman sees this tree(wholly deceived) as those trees which the Lord God caused to grow out of the ground, that was pleasent to the eyes, and good for food. Except for one thing..this tree has an added quaility...it is a tree to be desired to make one wise.

Now ask yourself, where did the woman come up with all of this? From God? Of course not. It was the serpent, he was deceiving her.



Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.


Notice what is STILL in the midst of the paradise of God..the tree of life. Notice what is no longer in the midst of the paradise of God..the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Why? I believe we know the reason why..and that reason is Christ and what He accomplished.

Notice what verse 2 states. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life

Notice that the tree of life is in the midst and on either sides of the river. What does this tell me? This is only food for thought, but peraps in the garden of Eden, since we know that both the tree of life, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil were in the midst, perhaps one was on one side of the river, and perhaps the other one was on the other side. Look at the parable in Luke 16, the rich man and Lazarus. Paradise was on one side of the gulf. Death and destruction were on the other side.


Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


I believe this is where the tree of knowledge of good and evil is fully destroyed from the midst of the paradise of God.

Basically, I tend to believe that the tree of life, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil represent 2 spiritual kingdoms. One kingdom that never ends, the other kingdom that leads to death and destruction, a kingdom that will be fully destroyed.