PDA

View Full Version : Salvation is not a privilege



Diolectic
May 30th 2008, 02:03 AM
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God overlooked; but now commands all men everywhere to repent:
Luke 17:10 So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Luke 17:10 is given after the Desciples ask Jesus to increase their faith(Luke 17:5)
Basicaly, Jesus told them to just do that which they are suposed to do, because they have all the faith they need.

Obedience(Luke 17:10) to a command(Acts 17:30) is not meritable!!!
To believe the truth is not meritable!!!
To act upon the truth not meritable!!!

Salvation is not a privilege, it is a mandate!!!
No one is condemned for not being privileged, however, all are condemned for not fulfilling the mandate.

If salvation was a privilege, then it means that some men are not supposed to obey the command for all men everywhere to repent; that would make null & void Acts 17:30.

That verse would not command all men everywhere, but only those who are first moved to do so.
The Scripture would say, "...but now commands only those who are moved to repent to do so."

Roelof
May 30th 2008, 06:06 AM
We are saved by His Grace.

ARCHER42
May 30th 2008, 01:13 PM
We are saved by His Grace.


I agree....................

knuckledamus
May 30th 2008, 01:22 PM
I agree, but salvation accompanied by baptism should bring about a change of mind, resulting in repentance. I don't know... this is where I start to get confused because of the separation of the mind from the spirit and all that jazz:D

Jesusinmyheart
May 30th 2008, 03:41 PM
I actually agree with Dioletic to this extend:...

Would any of you propose we are saved by grace and allowed to continue in disobedience/sin?
Would God pour out His grace on those that continue to be stiff necked?
We see the examples in the OT as well as in the NT of those that disobeyed.

Yes, God has lots of patience and is long suffering, but be aware that:
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
However, i would seriously not bank on that, and think "everything's gonna be alright" while being lax to obey. Cause no one can possibly know on whom God will continue to have mercy. It's like playing Russian roulette.

The part where i disagree with Diolectic on is that obedience, believing in truth, and acting upon truth are not meritable, because of this scripture:

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Thanks for sharing your insight Dioletic :hug:

I would like to add a link to a thread i believe really complements this one:
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=127163


Shalom,
Tanja

threebigrocks
May 30th 2008, 04:10 PM
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God overlooked; but now commands all men everywhere to repent:
Luke 17:10 So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Luke 17:10 is given after the Desciples ask Jesus to increase their faith(Luke 17:5)
Basicaly, Jesus told them to just do that which they are suposed to do, because they have all the faith they need.

Obedience(Luke 17:10) to a command(Acts 17:30) is not meritable!!!
To believe the truth is not meritable!!!
To act upon the truth not meritable!!!

Salvation is not a privilege, it is a mandate!!!
No one is condemned for not being privileged, however, all are condemned for not fulfilling the mandate.

If salvation was a privilege, then it means that some men are not supposed to obey the command for all men everywhere to repent; that would make null & void Acts 17:30.

That verse would not command all men everywhere, but only those who are first moved to do so.
The Scripture would say, "...but now commands only those who are moved to repent to do so."


And not all men will, because they love other stuff more than they hate their sin against a just and Holy God.

Luke 17



6And the Lord said, "If you had faith like a mustard seed, you would say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and be planted in the sea'; and it would obey you.
7"Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately and sit down to eat'?
8"But will he not say to him, 'Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink'?
9"He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? 10"So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"



My kids have things to do which are expected of them. We thank them, but there are not great praises and accolades given them for doing what they are expected to do. That is a miminum requirement. It's expected. If they don't, we remind them to take care of what needs taking care of.

Such is with the slave. He is supposed to do what he did. No biggie, it was expected of him. Had the slave not done his work, the master would have chastized him for his slacking.

This doesn't make slavation a mandate. Salvation is free for the taking, and all men are commanded to seek it and receive it. But not all will. Plenty of evidence of that around us in the unsaved and lost. But this in no way madates salvation. God does not force Himself on us but wants us to come to Him freely and openly. Forced love is not love.

timmyb
May 30th 2008, 06:09 PM
it's dependant on the free will of man's choice to choose God... salvation begins with God, but man makes that choice and Christ secures us in that salvation... but just as freely as I made that decision I can exercise that same freedom to reject it if I so desire

Toolman
May 30th 2008, 06:18 PM
That verse would not command all men everywhere, but only those who are first moved to do so.
The Scripture would say, "...but now commands only those who are moved to repent to do so."

As Augustine said "Command what you will: Give what you command".

God commands and then gives the faith, as a gift, to obey His command.

That is why it is by grace, not merit of works, that we are saved.

Toolman
May 30th 2008, 06:18 PM
Would any of you propose we are saved by grace and allowed to continue in disobedience/sin?

Tanja,

Let's answer the question with your (our) own life experience.

Have you been saved by grace?

Have you, since being saved, ever been disobedient to God? Have you ever sinned since being saved by grace?

If you have then obviously God does allow us to sin and disobey even after coming to salvation. If not then there would be no process or purpose of sanctification.


Yes, God has lots of patience and is long suffering, but be aware that:
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
However, i would seriously not bank on that, and think "everything's gonna be alright" while being lax to obey. Cause no one can possibly know on whom God will continue to have mercy. It's like playing Russian roulette.

While we are not to be lax in our sanctification (and the true regenerated believer won't be by grace) we can also ALWAYS bank on God's infinite mercy which endures forever.

Toolman
May 30th 2008, 06:32 PM
This doesn't make slavation a mandate. Salvation is free for the taking, and all men are commanded to seek it and receive it.

Command and mandate are synonymous (they mean the same thing). That was Diolectic's point. Salvation is commanded not given by privilege.


But not all will. Plenty of evidence of that around us in the unsaved and lost. But this in no way madates salvation. God does not force Himself on us but wants us to come to Him freely and openly. Forced love is not love.

TBR,

Are you stating that God does not command people to be saved and judges those who are not with wrath? Are you stating that there is no "force" in this?

crawfish
May 30th 2008, 06:33 PM
The offer of grace is a privilege.

A privilege that we have the free will to accept or reject.

timmyb
May 30th 2008, 06:33 PM
but what about enduring to the end?... salvation is given to those who call upon the name of Jesus and who endure to the end

ARCHER42
May 30th 2008, 06:43 PM
For the believer, Jesus the Christ is the Author and Finisher of your faith.... All the way from the moment your were Born Again of the Holy Ghost.. or regenerated spiritually.. till the Day you will stand before Him and See Him face to face.. It is by Grace that you have been saved... You didnt deserve it and its nothing you can work for.. pay for.. work out in the 'intellect of man' . He Starts it and He Finishes it.... if your truly His............ God the Father started it when He 'drew' you to the One who was Lifted up... Christ Crucified... the climax will be when you stand before Him and actually look upon the One who 'died' in your place... The day you look upon your Redeemer face to face... Thats the day I look forward to......

threebigrocks
May 30th 2008, 07:18 PM
TBR,

Are you stating that God does not command people to be saved and judges those who are not with wrath? Are you stating that there is no "force" in this?

We are not forced to love Him, to be forced into repentance or anything of the sort. God doesn't make us love Him, we choose to, starting with conviction and drawing of us to Christ by the Father.

None escape 1 of 2 things - being welcomed home to eternity or sentenced to hell. Mercy or judgement.

Boils down to free will. We can choose to go against the evidence that surrounds us or we can accept the One to whom the evidence testifies to.

threebigrocks
May 30th 2008, 07:19 PM
but what about enduring to the end?... salvation is given to those who call upon the name of Jesus and who endure to the end

Indeed! For those who repent, accept salvation and endure in Christ until the end are saved!

Jesusinmyheart
May 30th 2008, 07:37 PM
Toolman,
Yes i have sinned, but a sinner who desires to follow God gets up after a fall and starts following Yeshua again.

Pro 24:16 for the righteous falls seven times and rises again, but the wicked stumble in times of calamity.
God knows the heart of man.


While we are not to be lax in our sanctification (and the true regenerated believer won't be by grace) we can also ALWAYS bank on God's infinite mercy which endures forever.Grace is God's mercy, but it is not God overpowering your will to do His, this is still and always has been man's choice to either do His will or not. The Word and the Holy Spirit only enable you to know the truth, and which way to turn, but the choice is yours to make to turn His way or the other.

If you want to bank on it, fine. I won't bank on it, but rather go and try my best to make sure i am worthy of His mercy.

Shalom,
Tanja

Toolman
May 30th 2008, 07:38 PM
We are not forced to love Him, to be forced into repentance or anything of the sort. God doesn't make us love Him, we choose to, starting with conviction and drawing of us to Christ by the Father.

Being convicted is force. If God had not convicted you of sin (by force of Law) then you would have never come to Him to seek His forgiveness.

God is not passive in his role in our salvation. He uses His power (force) to bring us to follow Him.

Isaiah 45:23 - "I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.


None escape 1 of 2 things - being welcomed home to eternity or sentenced to hell. Mercy or judgement.

Boils down to free will. We can choose to go against the evidence that surrounds us or we can accept the One to whom the evidence testifies to.

Nevertheless God uses force to bring about His will. He is not passive, He brings conviction, wrath, threat of judgement, commands, as well as forgiveness, kindness, acceptance to bring about salvation in us.

My point is God absolutely uses force and is not a passive Being.

Jesusinmyheart
May 30th 2008, 07:42 PM
God is not passive in his role in our salvation. He uses His power (force) to bring us to follow Him.

Isaiah 45:23 - "I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.There you have God using force, yes He disciplins us... what happens if we get disciplined and continue to disobey?

Do you propose that God's patience will last forever? Has not the OT shown otherwise?
And this is something that will happen again in the future as scripture tells us...

Shalom,
Tanja

Toolman
May 30th 2008, 07:49 PM
Toolman,
Yes i have sinned, but a sinner who desires to follow God gets up after a fall and starts following Yeshua again.

Nevertheless, that answers your question:
"Would any of you propose we are saved by grace and allowed to continue in disobedience/sin?"

The answer is an obvious "yes".


Pro 24:16 for the righteous falls seven times and rises again, but the wicked stumble in times of calamity.
God knows the heart of man.

Yes, he does. He said it is desperately wicked above all things.


Grace is God's mercy, but it is not God overpowering your will to do His, this is still and always has been man's choice to either do His will or not.

Grace IS God changing my will and I thank Him for it. He created me a new creature (by His power) and actively (not passively) gave me a new will that desires Him. I'm thankful for that grace by which He did so and take none of the credit for myself.


If you want to bank on it, fine. I won't bank on it, but rather go and try my best to make sure i am worthy of His mercy.


Yes, I know, without a doubt, that I am not worthy of His mercy. The very word, mercy, by its very definition describes that I am not worthy of Him but am in need of MERCY!

And I'm thankful that His mercy endures forever despite my failings and fallings, that my salvation is not based on my goodness but upon His mercy and grace.

I'll bank on that with all my trust and faith.

Toolman
May 30th 2008, 07:55 PM
There you have God using force, yes He disciplins us... what happens if we get disciplined and continue to disobey?

Depends on whether you are man-centered or God-centered in your theology.

Depends on whose will you believe will ultimately triumph. Depends on who you believe is the greater of the two, man or God and which one is able to make his will come to pass.


Do you propose that God's patience will last forever?

Mercy endures forever (http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=mercy%20endures%20forever&version1=50&searchtype=all&spanbegin=1&spanend=46)

ARCHER42
May 30th 2008, 08:53 PM
Yes God does use 'force'.. He uses it as He sees fit.. For He is Soveriegn....



AWE............... But it is the REVELATION of HIS UNMERITED GOODNESS AND FAVOR to the unbeliever that will , in time , bring that person to repentance... Paul declares that quite clearly... in the Book of Romans.... God's longsuffering.. When there is Revelation of Unmerited Grace and Favor to an invididual... CONVICTION will follow and a Revrent Fear of Who He is and What He accomplished on that Bloody Tree will be established...... This understanding will be 'instilled' in that heart and spirit that has been 'born' afresh!
It is the Revelation of His Glory and His Goodness even though 'unmerited' that will lead that person to understand that 'without' Him... we are hopeless and lost... without any Light in this dark world... and that we need a Lord and Saviour.

The Holy Ghost woos and coos... searching... the hearts of men women and children.. God the Father Draws. that person.... to the One who was lifted up.. Christ Crucified.... from there its an Eternal Love Story...

9Marksfan
May 30th 2008, 11:38 PM
it's dependant on the free will of man's choice to choose God... salvation begins with God, but man makes that choice and Christ secures us in that salvation... but just as freely as I made that decision I can exercise that same freedom to reject it if I so desire

This is human reasoning - you won't find this in the Bible. In what way do you think Christ secures us?

9Marksfan
May 30th 2008, 11:39 PM
As Augustine said "Command what you will: Give what you command".

God commands and then gives the faith, as a gift, to obey His command.

That is why it is by grace, not merit of works, that we are saved.

Welcome back, Toolman! I always wondered if that quote was Augustine's!

Toolman
May 31st 2008, 01:31 AM
Welcome back, Toolman!

Thanks Marksfan!


I always wondered if that quote was Augustine's!

Yeah, its in his confessions Chapter 29:

40 And my whole hope is only in Your exceeding great mercy. Give what Thou commandest, and command what You will. Thou imposest continency upon us, nevertheless, when I perceived, says one, that I could not otherwise obtain her, except God gave her me; . . . that was a point of wisdom also to know whose gift she was. For by continency are we bound up and brought into one, whence we were scattered abroad into many. For he loves You too little who loves anything with You, which he loves not for You, O love, who ever burnest, and art never quenched! O charity, my God, kindle me! Thou commandest continency; give what Thou commandest, and command what You will.