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Share_Truth
Jun 1st 2008, 06:16 PM
Hello,
I am confused when i hear christians talking about "Holy Trinity" and telling that Jesus is God and sometimes in the Holy Bible they say Jesus is man...


Thank you:pp

NB: I signed up in this forum to clear confusions i have about christianity.

th1bill
Jun 1st 2008, 06:19 PM
Hello,
I am confused when i hear christians talking about "Holy Trinity" and telling that Jesus is God and sometimes in the Holy Bible they say Jesus is man...


Thank you:pp

NB: I signed up in this forum to clear confusions i have about christianity.
Jesus is God, the second person of the trinity, in the flesh of man.

Share_Truth
Jun 1st 2008, 06:29 PM
ummm, did not get it...can you make it lil more clear please, I don't know much about Trinity...

Vhayes
Jun 1st 2008, 06:38 PM
ummm, did not get it...can you make it lil more clear please, I don't know much about Trinity...
Colossians 2 says:
9 - For in Him (Jesus) all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Also - In John 1
1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 - He was in the beginning with God.
3 - All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 - In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 - The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Then, further down in the same chapter you read:
14 - And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Does that help answer your question?

Brother Mark
Jun 1st 2008, 06:47 PM
Hello,
I am confused when i hear christians talking about "Holy Trinity" and telling that Jesus is God and sometimes in the Holy Bible they say Jesus is man...


Thank you:pp

NB: I signed up in this forum to clear confusions i have about christianity.

Hi Share_Truth. Welcome to the board.

Scripture says we can know God and his divine nature through what has been made.

Rom 1:18-20

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
NASB

The Trinity, can be understood better by looking at what God has made. He created space. Space has 3 dimensions. Remove any 1 dimension and space is no longer space. The three are one.

Time has past, present and future. Remove any part of it, and time is no more. Time is three, yet one.

The universe is made up of mass/energy, time and space. The 'uni'verse is one. Uni means 1. Yet, it is made up of 3 distinct parts. Remove any one of them, and the universe is no more.

As for Jesus being God, we see duality in what has been made as well. Jesus was called the Light of the world in John 1. We know light is made up of both wave and particles (photons). Another example is energy/mass. Energy is the same as mass and mass is the same as energy. That's Einsteins famous equation E=MC^2. So light can be both particle and wave. Jesus is God and man. He is God in his character. Just as mass does not expose all of it's power, neither did Jesus. He clothed himself in humility. But when his power is released, and he shows himself as God, the power (energy) is incredible!

I hope this small post concerning what has been made, will help understand the Trinity better. I am going to visit my brother soon so I may not be able to answer right away. But later this evening or tomorrow, perhaps I can answer again if you have posted a response to my thoughts.

Grace to you.

Mark

Saved7
Jun 1st 2008, 08:03 PM
Jesus is God come in the flesh, through a virgin via the Holy Spirit, thereby also making Him the Son of God. That's really the simplest way I can express it to you. The whole doctrine is very difficult to comprehend, but God is beyond us, and able to do all things.

In the OT, we see that when Adam and Eve sinned, God covered their nakedness (also known as sin) with animal skins. Where did the animal skin come from? An animal. Who killed the animal for the skin? Adam and Eve wouldn't have thought to do such a thing, therefore, since God takes the credit for covering them, it would be reasonable to assume that God was the One who killed the animal/ or shall I say made the first sacrifce.

We also see the story of Abraham with the sacrifice of Isaac, an angel appeared and stopped him just as he was about to plunge the knife into his son. And lo and behold, there was a ram caught in the bushes, ripe for the picking; to be used as a replacement sacrifice. It wasn't Abraham's animal, so just how much of a sacrifice was that? And why did God accept that as a sacrifice, if it didn't cost Abraham anything? The scriptures tell us why, it was a sacrifice provided by God Himself.
Gen 22:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gen&chapter=22&verse=8&version=kjv#8)And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.


This was symbolic of the Lamb of God, who is Jesus.

the inside out
Jun 1st 2008, 10:42 PM
Hello,
I am confused when i hear christians talking about "Holy Trinity" and telling that Jesus is God and sometimes in the Holy Bible they say Jesus is man...


Thank you:pp

NB: I signed up in this forum to clear confusions i have about christianity.
He is both. He is fully God and fully man

calidog
Jun 1st 2008, 11:26 PM
Gen 3:14 So the LORD God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life.
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

Jesus was born from the seed of the woman. All other humans are born from the seed of the man.


Luk 1:34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

Athanasius
Jun 2nd 2008, 02:12 AM
Hello,
I am confused when i hear christians talking about "Holy Trinity" and telling that Jesus is God and sometimes in the Holy Bible they say Jesus is man...


Thank you:pp

NB: I signed up in this forum to clear confusions i have about christianity.

Christianity, unlike Islam, and I believe Judaism, doesn't believe it heretical to assert that God took the form of man. I'm of the opinion that anything but, and his subsitutionary sacrifice would have been useless.

The following is, I believe, a very important verse when it comes to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. The most important being verse(s) 7, 8 and 9. In verse 9 we also read that God highly exalted Jesus (as a man); bestowing on him the name which is above every name.

Philippians 2:5-9
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name

Share_Truth
Jun 3rd 2008, 11:45 AM
Brother Mark,




Hi Share_Truth. Welcome to the board.

Scripture says we can know God and his divine nature through what has been made.

Rom 1:18-20

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
NASB

Here scripture is talking about God not Jesus,no where word Jesus is mentiened here, and it says:"ungodliness and unrighteousness of men" so men can't be God, how come Jesus being a "man" is God...don't you see the contradiction here?


The Trinity, can be understood better by looking at what God has made. He created space. Space has 3 dimensions. Remove any 1 dimension and space is no longer space. The three are one.


As you say Jesus, God father and Holy spirit are three making God, also 3 dimensions of the space are making the space..good, but....
Taking one dimension of the space (X for example) is "a part of the space" and it's not the space itself...but why you say Jesus is God, according to this example Jesus must be a part of God not God...

Time has past, present and future. Remove any part of it, and time is no more. Time is three, yet one.

The universe is made up of mass/energy, time and space. The 'uni'verse is one. Uni means 1. Yet, it is made up of 3 distinct parts. Remove any one of them, and the universe is no more.


Same idea here...a part is not All...

As for Jesus being God, we see duality in what has been made as well. Jesus was called the Light of the world in John 1. We know light is made up of both wave and particles (photons). Another example is energy/mass. Energy is the same as mass and mass is the same as energy. That's Einsteins famous equation E=MC^2. So light can be both particle and wave. Jesus is God and man. He is God in his character. Just as mass does not expose all of it's power, neither did Jesus. He clothed himself in humility. But when his power is released, and he shows himself as God, the power (energy) is incredible!


In Einsteins equation the value of Energy is changing whenever mass change with fixed factor(c2)...but Unit of E is Joul, unit of mass is Kg, they are different essances...only values goes same...

you said Jesus is God and man as light is particle and wave, light always has been particle and wave but Jesus was a man "body" only for few years (from his born to death as the Holy Bible which you have says Jesus was killed)..


Grace to you.

Share_Truth

Brother Mark
Jun 3rd 2008, 11:59 AM
Here scripture is talking about God not Jesus,no where word Jesus is mentiened here, and it says:"ungodliness and unrighteousness of men" so men can't be God, how come Jesus being a "man" is God...don't you see the contradiction here?

Scripture is talking about God. And we can understand his divine nature. God is one, yet three. That's why he said in the beginning "Let US make man in OUR image". In order to understand US and OUR, he created things that are one, yet three. If one sees God, then he will see Jesus.


As you say Jesus, God father and Holy spirit are three making God, also 3 dimensions of the space are making the space..good, but....
Taking one dimension of the space (X for example) is "a part of the space" and it's not the space itself...but why you say Jesus is God, according to this example Jesus must be a part of God not God...

All examples break down at some point, do they not? The point still stands. How can creation, or that which is created, fully reveal God? It can't. But through creation, we can get a better understanding. Three dimensions, one space. Yet, each dimension is separate, but a part. One, yet three distinct and separate things. A proton is a proton and distinct. A neutron is distinct. An electron is distinct. Yet, together, they are one atom.



Same idea here...a part is not All...

That is why one cannot worship only God the Father and say he is worshiping God. One must worship ALL for ALL make up the ONE. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit make up the Godhead of whom we should worship.


In Einsteins equation the value of Energy is changing whenever mass change with fixed factor(c2)...but Unit of E is Joul, unit of mass is Kg, they are different essances...only values goes same...

Energy and mass are the same just stored differently. For instance, ice is the same as water is the same as water vapor. The only difference is the current state of being.


you said Jesus is God and man as light is particle and wave, light always has been particle and wave but Jesus was a man "body" only for few years (from his born to death as the Holy Bible which you have says Jesus was killed)..

Jesus made appearances in the OT with Abraham in a body and Abraham called him "Lord" (God). He now has a resurrected body. But again, the examples in nature to explain God will always fall short. For how can the finite describe the infinite?

Now, let me ask you a couple of questions. You said you wanted more understanding. Do you come here to learn or to teach?

Another question... what will you do with all the things you have done wrong in the past? What will become of your sin?

Share_Truth
Jun 3rd 2008, 01:18 PM
Brother Mark

I agree with you, God is not like anything and nothing is like God, all examples we may give they will break....when God uses "We,Us.." is it not because He is God? .(kings who are human being uses this to talk about themselves for respect, so what's wrong if God who is The Creator use this talking about Himself?)

Now, let me ask you a couple of questions. You said you wanted more understanding. Do you come here to learn or to teach?

Another question... what will you do with all the things you have done wrong in the past? What will become of your sin?

I came here to "understand", we can't learn by accepting things as they are, God created us and gave us brain eyes and ears to look for truth and understand it...from beginning of creation God teached our father Adam how to obeiy Him ,when Adam made a sin God teached him first to ask forgivness and second to listen to what God is asking us to do and to not do...

No at all am not here to teach, I am too small for that, please forgive me Brother Mark if i gave this impression, but it's not at all true...but i believe religion is not only faith, religion is faith long with proofs...we all have faith but we need proofs to be more confortable with faith and sure of what we believe in...is it right?

Things I did wrong in the past I am asking forgivness from Our Lord, and I am trying to make up for it by doing good things...all human do wrong things (big or small things) human are not perfect...God understand that because He created human being and as He is Merciful He can forgive to whom he want to and the time He want to.

grit
Jun 3rd 2008, 02:13 PM
Is Jesus God or Man?
Hello,
I am confused when i hear christians talking about "Holy Trinity" and telling that Jesus is God and sometimes in the Holy Bible they say Jesus is man...


Thank you:pp

NB: I signed up in this forum to clear confusions i have about christianity.

Welcome, Share_Truth.

To be honest, the early Christians and many Christians since have had difficulty in reasoning out what the Christian Scriptures teach regarding the essence of God in three persons, as well as the essential essence of Jesus in humanity and divinity and how these two aspects fit together. Christians haven't always agreed on these matters, and we've especially favoured differing perspectives on how best to explain what God has revealed of himself in Scripture.

A proper understanding of the nature of Jesus regarding his divinity and humanity was one of the very early things Christians sought to sort out through church leaders meeting together in councils debating the topic - esp. the Council of Chalcedon, c. 451, where verus homus, verus Deus (truly man, truly God; fully man and fully God) was clarified regarding Scriptural teaching concerning Jesus, and has remained the orthodox standard of Christianity ever since. Chalcedon also expressed certain parameters in how these two natures relate to each other within Jesus – that they are in perfect unity, without mixture, division, confusion, or separation. In other words, Jesus did not have a deified human nature or a humanized divine nature, but that the two natures are to be distinguished and yet exist in perfect harmony. Jesus’ glory and divinity was certainly often cloaked or concealed within his humanity, and the “Son of God” is certainly subordinate to the Father, though not inferior, and begotten of the Father, though not created by Him. There is no inequality of being, dignity, or divine attributes between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Part of the issue is involved in the value and authority we Christians place in our Christian Scriptures - that they are completely true and an accurate, inerrant, self-consistent revelation inspired of what God as a record of what He would have us to know regarding Himself and His working with humans. We hold what the Scriptures teach as of utmost importance in revealing who God is, who man is, and the nature and work of Jesus.

Acceptably orthodox Christianity is monotheistic - there is only one God, not three. As you're aware, the paradox is presented in our Scripture's expressing of the One God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; and especially heightened in the person, incarnation, and crucifixion of Jesus. As indicated earlier, Jesus is not a lesser god than the Father, nor inferior to the Father, but through the work of redemption Jesus is said to be subordinate to the Father. Sure, aspects of how one person can have two natures remains a mystery and paradox to we humans, but it is expressly what God has revealed concerning himself as near as orthodox Christians have agreed to understand our Christian Scriptures teach.

grptinHisHand
Jun 3rd 2008, 02:24 PM
Please read this verse for help in understanding the Trinity:
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Hope this helps.
g

Share_Truth
Jun 3rd 2008, 02:25 PM
Welcome, Share_Truth.

To be honest, the early Christians and many Christians since have had difficulty in reasoning out what the Christian Scriptures teach regarding the essence of God in three persons, as well as the essential essence of Jesus in humanity and divinity and how these two aspects fit together. Christians haven't always agreed on these matters, and we've especially favoured differing perspectives on how best to explain what God has revealed of himself in Scripture.

A proper understanding of the nature of Jesus regarding his divinity and humanity was one of the very early things Christians sought to sort out through church leaders meeting together in councils debating the topic - esp. the Council of Chalcedon, c. 451, where verus homus, verus Deus (truly man, truly God; fully man and fully God) was clarified regarding Scriptural teaching concerning Jesus, and has remained the orthodox standard of Christianity ever since. Chalcedon also expressed certain parameters in how these two natures relate to each other within Jesus – that they are in perfect unity, without mixture, division, confusion, or separation. In other words, Jesus did not have a deified human nature or a humanized divine nature, but that the two natures are to be distinguished and yet exist in perfect harmony. Jesus’ glory and divinity was certainly often cloaked or concealed within his humanity, and the “Son of God” is certainly subordinate to the Father, though not inferior, and begotten of the Father, though not created by Him. There is no inequality of being, dignity, or divine attributes between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Part of the issue is involved in the value and authority we Christians place in our Christian Scriptures - that they are completely true and an accurate, inerrant, self-consistent revelation inspired of what God as a record of what He would have us to know regarding Himself and His working with humans. We hold what the Scriptures teach as of utmost importance in revealing who God is, who man is, and the nature and work of Jesus. Acceptably orthodox Christianity is monotheistic - there is only one God, not three. As you're aware, the paradox is presented in our Scripture's expressing of God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, especially heightened in the person, incarnation, and crucifixion of Jesus. As indicated earlier, Jesus is not a lesser god than the Father, nor inferior to the Father, but through the work of redemption Jesus is said to be subordinate to the Father. Sure, aspects of how one person can have two natures remains a mystery and paradox to we humans, but it is expressly what God has revealed concerning himself as near as orthodox Christians have agreed to understand our Christian Scriptures teach.


Hi grit,

Thank you for your honesty and clearness, so christians themselves they had problems understanding this paradox of multiple natures of the same being, and i did not know that not all of christians believe in Trinity as you said before...

So after reading all that you have wrote may i understand that the "Holy Trinity" is to be accepted without proofs?

knuckledamus
Jun 3rd 2008, 02:41 PM
In Einsteins equation the value of Energy is changing whenever mass change with fixed factor(c2)...but Unit of E is Joul, unit of mass is Kg, they are different essances...only values goes same...

Are you sure that the unit of E is Joule? From my schooling, the unit of E is Voltage... Isn't a Joule "A unit of electrical energy equal to the work done when a current of one ampere is passed through a resistance of one ohm for one second," which has to do with thermodynamics?

knuckledamus
Jun 3rd 2008, 02:43 PM
Hi grit,

Thank you for your honesty and clearness, so christians themselves they had problems understanding this paradox of multiple natures of the same being, and i did not know that not all of christians believe in Trinity as you said before...

So after reading all that you have wrote may i understand that the "Holy Trinity" is to be accepted without proofs?

If we were totally able to understand God, then He wouldn't be all that special, now, would He?

grit
Jun 3rd 2008, 02:57 PM
Thank you for your honesty and clearness, so christians themselves they had problems understanding this paradox of multiple natures of the same being, and i did not know that not all of christians believe in Trinity as you said before...

So after reading all that you have wrote may i understand that the "Holy Trinity" is to be accepted without proofs?

Yes, belief in the triune nature of God is simply the majority orthodox expression of what our Christian Scriptures teach. It is the standard of Christendom, from Eastern Orthodox to Roman Catholic to all of orthodox Protestantism; but there have always been splinter groups within Christianity that either differently express what our Scriptures teach regarding the nature and being of God, or depart from Scriptural teaching into various other expressions of belief regarding the nature of God and who Jesus is/was.

Even today, in many Christian churches and organizations, one often finds somewhat of a crises in a lack of understanding about the person of Jesus the Christ, especially in that it is so difficult for us to understand how one person can have two natures - just how God was able to take upon himself a human nature without stopping being God to become man.

However, we accept the Holy Trinity, not without proofs, but with the extensive proofs of Holy Scripture. More than 60 Bible passages mention the three Persons together (cf. Matthew 3:16,17; Matthew 28:29; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Ephesians 4:4-6; Titus 3:4-6; and the Christian Scriptures clearly teach that the Father is God (1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 4: 4-6), the Son is God (John 1:1-14; 10:30-33; Hebrews 1:6-8), and the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 2 Corinthians 3:16-17).

:)

Brother Mark
Jun 3rd 2008, 02:58 PM
Brother Mark

I agree with you, God is not like anything and nothing is like God, all examples we may give they will break....when God uses "We,Us.." is it not because He is God? .(kings who are human being uses this to talk about themselves for respect, so what's wrong if God who is The Creator use this talking about Himself?)

Perhaps it is God speaking of 3 in 1. Kings use and it is inaccurate speech. Is God inaccurate?




No at all am not here to teach, I am too small for that, please forgive me Brother Mark if i gave this impression, but it's not at all true...but i believe religion is not only faith, religion is faith long with proofs...we all have faith but we need proofs to be more confortable with faith and sure of what we believe in...is it right?

Proofs... perhaps experience. For when someone meets Jesus Christ, his life is changed.


Things I did wrong in the past I am asking forgivness from Our Lord, and I am trying to make up for it by doing good things...all human do wrong things (big or small things) human are not perfect...God understand that because He created human being and as He is Merciful He can forgive to whom he want to and the time He want to.

If a man commits murder, how much goodness does he have to do to make his murder go away? If a man lies, how many good deeds must he do to get rid of the lie? No matter how much good he does, the evil is still there. Where does it go? God is holy and can such bad things come into his presence?

What happens to the sin we commit? If I murder, no number of good deeds will undo the murder I committed. What then must happen?

Revinius
Jun 3rd 2008, 03:03 PM
Its like the good things in life are a cup of milk and all the bad things in life are fecal matter. It doesnt matter how much fecal matter there is in the cup, its still going to be something repulsive to drink.

*go the disgusting analogy! :P*

dljc
Jun 3rd 2008, 03:33 PM
Hello Share_Truth and welcome to the board!

From John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

John 14:
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.


In verse 26 that is underlined, Jesus Himself references to the Trinity. He names all three parts of the Godhead.

Now look back a few verses.

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If there was any other way, wouldn't He have told us?

Share_Truth
Jun 3rd 2008, 03:33 PM
Perhaps it is God speaking of 3 in 1. Kings use and it is inaccurate speech. Is God inaccurate?

"Perhaps" "may be"...means not sure, religion is responsability so we have to be sure.May God forgive me, God is not inaccurate, but God is The Mighty and when human talk this way we call it pride because human is not perfect but when God do, nothing wrong with it because God is Our Lord.


Proofs... perhaps experience. For when someone meets Jesus Christ, his life is changed.

All other religions also, when people start believing their lives change eventhough they may be different from christianity, so experience is not enough as proofs of Jesus divinity.


If a man commits murder, how much goodness does he have to do to make his murder go away? If a man lies, how many good deeds must he do to get rid of the lie? No matter how much good he does, the evil is still there. Where does it go? God is holy and can such bad things come into his presence?

Their is two kinds of sins:
-Sins which are between human and God only: sins which does not harm anyother human, like illegal relations, taking drogs,...those God ,if i ask forgivness honestly and if He want can forgive them as He forgived Adam before, if not we will be asked for them the last day, for this reason heavens and hell were made...
-Sins in which I break other people's rights, in this case God can forgive if He want, His right but rights of human they depend on them if they want to forgive you or not...
In both cases God sent messengers and revelations and books to make law in this first life to save each others rights...law which punish who is making crimes.(Big sins, like murders...etc)



What happens to the sin we commit? If I murder, no number of good deeds will undo the murder I committed. What then must happen?
[/QUOTE]
If we apply God's law, who commit murder wantedly has to pay his life for it, life against life...
If God did not want to forgive our sin, we will be asked for it the last day, and we will have to pay it from good deeds we have, if they are not enough then God will decide we go to Heaven or Hell...God is Fair, no one is to pay for someonelse, and everyone is responsible of his own deeds (As He gave us brain to make distinctions between bad and good).

Share_Truth
Jun 3rd 2008, 03:41 PM
Are you sure that the unit of E is Joule? From my schooling, the unit of E is Voltage... Isn't a Joule "A unit of electrical energy equal to the work done when a current of one ampere is passed through a resistance of one ohm for one second," which has to do with thermodynamics?

This E we are talking about is Energy not electrical voltage.
E=V*Q (V: voltage).

Share_Truth
Jun 3rd 2008, 03:43 PM
If we were totally able to understand God, then He wouldn't be all that special, now, would He?

Buda which some people worship our days is also not understood, so it special for you as christian?

God is for all people, the most simple man has to understand religion so that he has faith...

Brother Mark
Jun 3rd 2008, 03:44 PM
"Perhaps" "may be"...means not sure, religion is responsability so we have to be sure.May God forgive me, God is not inaccurate, but God is The Mighty and when human talk this way we call it pride because human is not perfect but when God do, nothing wrong with it because God is Our Lord.

No "perhaps" in this case doesn't mean not sure. It means I wanted to be polite and offer a suggestion. But to speak plainly, it means God was referring to himself as plural. The very name of God in the OT is plural in form. He is three in one. That is why he speaks "us" and "our".


All other religions also, when people start believing their lives change eventhough they may be different from christianity, so experience is not enough as proofs of Jesus divinity.

Lives change in many ways. But proof for me was when I met Jesus himself. That changed everything! He changed my heart on the inside. He didn't just change my actions, or give me more will power to do something. He changed who I was on the inside. It was a radical change. When I say change, I do not simply mean I went on to act and behave differently. Instead, I mean a new and different person came into being. It was Jesus that did that to me. What he did inside of me and in my heart is miraculous.


Their is two kinds of sins:
-Sins which are between human and God only: sins which does not harm anyother human, like illegal relations, taking drogs,...those God ,if i ask forgivness honestly and if He want can forgive them as He forgived Adam before, if not we will be asked for them the last day, for this reason heavens and hell were made...
-Sins in which I break other people's rights, in this case God can forgive if He want, His right but rights of human they depend on them if they want to forgive you or not...
In both cases God sent messengers and revelations and books to make law in this first life to save each others rights...law which punish who is making crimes.(Big sins, like murders...etc)

Yet, how does God forgive? What happens to the sin? Where does it go? Is there no debt to God or to your fellow man?


If we apply God's law, who commit murder wantedly has to pay his life for it, life against life...
If God did not want to forgive our sin, we will be asked for it the last day, and we will have to pay it from good deeds we have, if they are not enough then God will decide we go to Heaven or Hell...God is Fair, no one is to pay for someonelse, and everyone is responsible of his own deeds (As He gave us brain to make distinctions between bad and good).

How can you pay back through good deeds? How can a million good deeds erase one bad deed? If I stand before a judge and have been found guilty of murder, if I tell that judge "I will spend the rest of my life feeding the poor and helping the weak", will that erase the murder? Does it remove my guilt? Am I not still guilty?

Scruffy Kid
Jun 3rd 2008, 03:47 PM
Hello Share_Truth!
Welcome to Bibleforums!! :hug:
It's nice to have you here!! :pp :pp :pp


Your Questions

You say that you are here to clear up confusions about Christianity! Great! That's what we want to do!
I signed up in this forum to clear confusions i have about Christianity. You have asked two very fundamental questions about the nature of Jesus, and of God, in the first two posts of this thread:
:confused Is Jesus God or Man?
... I am confused when i hear christians talking about "Holy Trinity" and telling that Jesus is God and sometimes in the Holy Bible they say Jesus is man... and
...can you make it lil more clear please, about [the] Trinity...


The things the first Christians learned from Jesus

In some ways it may be helpful to start not with the final answers, or technical terms that were later devised to try to put Christian teaching into a compact logical form, but with the reality that Jesus' disciples experienced, and with the way they thought that reality through to arrive at concepts which could help express it.

Jesus, a carpenter, and the son of a carpenter, from Nazareth, a devout Jew -- as the Christian faith understands it -- began when he was about 30 years old to teach, and to perform various miracles. His teaching was a deep exposition (midrash, or explication) of what had already been written in the Scriptures (our "Old Testament", or "Hebrew Scriptures"), but it also was radically different from any previous teaching.

The Jewish religion and Scriptures were unique in the world in stating that there was but one God who had made all things. This Jesus definitely affirmed. For instance he taught that our duty was first "to love THE LORD" our "God with all your heart and soul and strength" (Deut. 6:5) and similarly "to love your neighbor as yourself." (Lev. 19:18) The teaching about loving God "with all our heart and soul and strength" is given in the OT ("Old Testament", or Tanach) in the very context of affirming God's uniqueness and oneness: "Hear O Israel, THE LORD" your God is one Lord", or "the only Lord." (Matt 22:37 f., Mark 12:30 f., Luke 10:27 f.) It's absolutely evident (from this and many other texts) that Jesus believed, affirmed, and taught that there is but one God, who made all things. Jesus prayed to God, and addressed God as "Father."

But at the same time, Jesus did and said things which seemed, at first, inconsistent with this teaching. Specifically, Jesus taught giving himself authority at least equal to that of the Scriptures, presenting as his warrant for his teaching simply "I say to you ... ." Similarly, Jesus went about forgiving sins -- not just sins against himself, but all sins. This only God can do, as hostile critics remarked at the time. And Jesus taught that God was, in a unique way, his Father, and that he, Jesus, had come from the Father and would return to Him, and that he (Jesus) had existed before Abraham lived, thousands of years before, and so on. And he said of God, "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30, 17:11) Further, he said that true life, and eternal life, was to be found in himself alone. Therefore we needed, he said, to dwell ("abide") in him as he always dwelt ("abided") in God, and that we needed to let him (Jesus) dwell within us, in the same way. (John 15) These things (and many other things he did and said) were tantamount to, equivalent to, a kind of claim that he, himself, personally, was God and one with God in a way which would (previously) have been understood as completely inconsistent with the nature of God -- God's oneness, and God's infinite and immortal nature, which could not be manifest in visible (much less in enfleshed) form.

Of course, in the end, Jesus chose to die, shamed, and tortured to death, as a criminal. He made it clear, though, that this was an inevitable part of God's plan (God's plan not just for Jesus, but for all humanity); he forgave his enemies from the cross, entrusted himself to God the Father. And he rose again, and appeared to his disciples, on the one hand fixing them breakfast, and eating fish, and so on to show them he was the same man, the same normal human being, that they had known, and on the other hand passing through walls, being both recognizable and unrecognizable, and ultimately doing what he called rising ["ascending"]to heaven where he was to "sit on the right hand of God" and rule over all things. During the time (40 days) he was on earth after he rose from the dead, but before he ascended, he also taught the disciples much more about himself and about God and his relatedness to God. And he taught that when he had ascended he would send "the Holy Spirit" (the word "spirit" means breath, or wind) upon his followers and that this Holy Spirit -- an actual person -- would teach them all things, and give them power to spread the good news ("gospel") he had left with them. He taught his followers to make disciples of all nations, "baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 28;18-20)

The affirmations of the Christian faith about Jesus -- that he is both fully God and fully man, yet one Christ; and that he died for our sins -- arose from the things the disciples had seen and heard, and had been taught by Jesus, and later by the Holy Spirit. Similarly, Christians affirm the idea that there is only one God, who exists eternally (absolutely, and beyond and "prior to" time and space) who made all things, yet that God eternally exists as the Father, and as the Son, and as the Holy Spirit, and that these three are in complete union and fellowship with one another.


Thinking through these things, as the early Christians did

God, as many on the thread have mentioned -- including you -- is larger than our understanding. For that reason, to know about God we need to learn from what He reveals to us, for we are incapable by our own powers of understanding very much about Him. Jesus claims to be God's unique and only son, and to dwell this God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, eternally. Yet Jesus was evidently a man, a flesh-and-blood man just like us, and he went out of his way to make that clear, and the NT (New Testament, or Greek Scriptures) make it very clear, also, that he was a regular flesh-and-blood person just like us -- and in fact at first, when people met him, not obviously different from anyone else.

The question is, how do we put all these things together? How do we make sense of God being one God, yet distinctly the Father, and the Son -- Jesus -- (who loves the Father and is loved by Him and talks with Him), and the Holy Spirit. What do we make of Jesus dying for our sins? What do we make of Jesus being fully God (with the Father and the Holy Spirit) and yet also entirely a human being?

The deep ideas of Christianity (which found full philosophical articulation only through the works of great geniuses like Athanasius and Basil and Gregory Nazianzus serveral centuries later) were articulated by the Church very early on. That is, the earliest Christians found ways to affirm these things, and make sense of them. Thus Paul early (I Cor. 15:1-3) says:
I delivered to you as of the first importance what I also received that Christ Jesus died for our sins and was raised on the third day. John begins his gospel (John 1:1-15) by saying about Jesus
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him, and without him was nothing made of all that has been created. ... And the word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth ... Jesus Christ. And in what is probably the earliest Christian writing we have, a hymn quoted by Paul (Phil. 2:5-11) in a very early letter, but already probably well-known, we are told
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in his true nature ["en morphe"] God, did not consider equality with God something that had to be grasped [or "stolen"] but emptied himself and truly took on the nature [morphe] of a slave, and being found in human condition humbled himself to death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and given him the name which is above every name, that in Jesus' name every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and among the dead, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father!


The basic Theological framework

When Christians say that Jesus is both God and man, and affirm that God eternally exists, being the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, in fellowship with one another and complete unity, one God, and give thanks that Jesus died for our sins, these things I've just talked about are the basics which are being expressed in these affirmations (about Jesus as God-and-man, about God as Father-Son-and Holy Spirit, etc.). This starts from the transforming experience that the original disciples had of knowing Jesus, which later generations ever since have also had.

There are useful ways of speaking about Who Jesus is ("fully God and fully Man, one Christ"; "hypostatic union"; "incarnation"; etc.) which have been set out in the Bible and subsequent generations of Christians. The same is true for the eternal love that is at the core of God's being ("Trinity"; "three persons in one God"; "perichoresis"; etc.). but they all start from very simple -- yet powerful and unusual -- teaching that Jesus left with his followers, and the experiences of Christ's own life which helped give powerful content to these teachings.

Jesus as God and Man (That is, fully God and fully a human being)

Jesus is fully a human being. He was born like us, was little and helpless and ignorant as a baby, and was taught and learned and grew. Therefore he is fully able to understand our situation, and in him we can find a friend and helper who is like us. Yet he is also God, holy, and powerful, and thus able to help us in our need, and bring holiness and goodness into our lives despite our weaknesses. Especially, Jesus could die for our sins because, being God, he was immortal and had infinite capacity to take our sins upon himself, and infinite goodness and worth that could overcome the weight of all this sins of all humankind. Yet, equally, to die for our sins he had to be entirely and truly a human being, so that he could be mortal (able to die and suffer in our stead), and so that his kinship with us allowed him to stand in the place of humanity, and of us in our humanity. Also, because Jesus is God (God the Son, the Eternal Word) all that he does God does (for there is complete unity of being and purpose in God -- even though it was specifically God the Son who took flesh and died for us). Thus, when Jesus bore our sins, and raised us to life, this was not the act of a mere man, but God taking our woundedness and hurt, our sin and problems, upon Himself, and overcoming them and giving us life. But equally, God could make this kind of intimate contact with us because God, in Christ Jesus, actually became a human being, and is joined to our humanity fully in that.

So the basic doctrines of Jesus as God and man, and of God as one God -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- are directly at work in the way that God works in our lives, saving us from our sins and brokenness, and raising us to life and holiness, and to fellowship with God Himself, in Jesus Christ. For this reason Jesus is called "Immanuel", "God with us"

God as One God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

Again, the teaching about God being three persons in one God makes sense of our experience of goodness and life like nothing else can, in my estimation. We know that what is most valuable in our lives is people (persons) and the love and fellowship that we have with other human beings (and with God). In fact, in a manner of speaking, Scripture tells us that "God is love" (I John 4:7-8; 4:16)and that as we dwell in true Christian love we dwell in God, live in God, and God lives and dwells in us.

But God exists before the universe does, or human beings, or time and space, or angels, or any created things. God's life and existence is eternal, beyond all the things that He made. The things that are made are but a pale reflection of the love, wisdom, beauty, goodness, and fullness of being and of joy that is God's own inner-nature. In understanding that God eternally exists in fellowship of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit we start to see how love and fellowship, and the relations of persons to each other, are not just something that came into being after God made plants, animals, stars, animals and human beings; but instead that love and personhood are at the heart of the very being of God who made all things.

When we see this we also understand how God made a universe with structure and purpose and meaning, and unity, yet with the enormous variety of beings and physical structures all working together. These things express, in a minor way, the way that God has the full richness of diversity that we see marvelously (but, if we but knew the greatness of God, faintly) mirrored in the created world, and also in far greater measure than the beauties of the universe, complete harmony and oneness of being within Himself.

Thus, IMO, the teaching of "the Trinity" and of "the incarnation" -- God joining our life to His own in Christ the eternal Son of God taking on human nature (that is, Jesus being God and man) both help us understand how the fullness and richeness and goodness and unity of God's life operates in our world, and made and sustains that world, including our lives!

In friendship, :hug:
Scruffy Kid

knuckledamus
Jun 3rd 2008, 04:26 PM
Buda which some people worship our days is also not understood, so it special for you as christian?

God is for all people, the most simple man has to understand religion so that he has faith...

It is easy to understand. They saw a planet and made up stuff about it. I'm guessing that you're referring to Budha, right and not Buddha?

Share_Truth
Jun 3rd 2008, 06:58 PM
It is easy to understand. They saw a planet and made up stuff about it. I'm guessing that you're referring to Budha, right and not Buddha?

No at all, I am not very smart but I have lil brain at least to understand that stones (Budha or others) can't create me...:)
I believe in God, One God who created heavens and earths, who created me and you...God christians worship also, but i blieve Jesus is man created by God as Adam without father, and that he is the messenger of God like Abraham, Moses and all others sent by Him, Peace Be Upon Them all.

grptinHisHand
Jun 3rd 2008, 07:01 PM
Share Truth

So, you believe that Jesus is likened to Adam, Abraham, etc?
Do you believe any of the New Testament?
g

Brother Mark
Jun 3rd 2008, 07:01 PM
No at all, I am not very smart but I have lil brain at least to understand that stones (Budha or others) can't create me...:)
I believe in God, One God who created heavens and earths, who created me and you...God christians worship also, but i blieve Jesus is man created by God as Adam without father, and that he is the messenger of God like Abraham, Moses and all others sent by Him, Peace Be Upon Them all.

Do you believe Jesus to be a prophet? Jesus himself claimed to be God.

Have you compared the offering of Isaac (the Son) by Abraham (the Father) to God offering Jesus as a sacrifice?

Share_Truth
Jun 3rd 2008, 07:14 PM
Do you believe Jesus to be a prophet? Jesus himself claimed to be God.

Have you compared the offering of Isaac (the Son) by Abraham (the Father) to God offering Jesus as a sacrifice?

Yes Brother, I believe Jesus is a prophet, i do not find anything strange with it nor anything distincting him from other prophets Peace Be Upon Them all, except being created without father and this also not strange as Adam was created not only without father but nor mother also and Adam is not son of God.

Honestly I can not take from christian scriptures existing now because they are many and different (they don't agree all about Trinity which is very basic thing) and were not written since Jesus Peace Be Upon Him life.And as were written down many years after Him (more 200 years) by other men(who were not prophets) I can not trust they haven't change anything in the Bible.
And as God is giving proofs for us to feel His presence looking at the univers He had made, I do not feel confortable taking my beliefs without Proofs and from uncertain sources (not original version).

I believe that God was testing Abraham's faith and asked him to sacrifice his son Issac whom he love alot, and both Isaac and Abraham Peace Be Upon them listen to God's order and they were ready to apply it, but at last seconds when Abraham was trying to kill his son, God saved him.No blood was sacrified for any reason.
Same also with Jesus was not killed, jews tried to kill him, but God saved him and raised up to God and Jesus will come back at the last day.
God is the light of heavens and earths, His light can't be hidden from any creature, they all have to see it easily and feel it without complications.

Athanasius
Jun 3rd 2008, 07:34 PM
Christianity, unlike Islam, and I believe Judaism, doesn't believe it heretical to assert that God took the form of man. I'm of the opinion that anything but, and his subsitutionary sacrifice would have been useless.

The following is, I believe, a very important verse when it comes to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. The most important being verse(s) 7, 8 and 9. In verse 9 we also read that God highly exalted Jesus (as a man); bestowing on him the name which is above every name.

Philippians 2:5-9
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name

I'm wondering, Share_Truth, what your view on this scripture is?

Brother Mark
Jun 3rd 2008, 07:36 PM
Yes Brother, I believe Jesus is a prophet, i do not find anything strange with it nor anything distincting him from other prophets Peace Be Upon Them all, except being created without father and this also not strange as Adam was created not only without father but nor mother also and Adam is not son of God.

Jesus said he was God. As a prophet, are his words true?


Honestly I can not take from christian scriptures existing now because they are many and different (they don't agree all about Trinity which is very basic thing) and were not written since Jesus Peace Be Upon Him life.And as were written down many years after Him (more 200 years) by other men(who were not prophets) I can not trust they haven't change anything in the Bible.Yet, they line up well with the Old Testament which hasn't changed for years. The dead sea scrolls show how well they are preserved. And with the NT, we are more sure we have what was originally penned than we are of the writings of Shakespeare.


And as God is giving proofs for us to feel His presence looking at the univers He had made, I do not feel confortable taking my beliefs without Proofs and from uncertain sources (not original version). The original language versions are available. The dead sea scrolls are very accurate and predate many of the other manuscripts we had.


I believe that God was testing Abraham's faith and asked him to sacrifice his son Issac whom he love alot, and both Isaac and Abraham Peace Be Upon them listen to God's order and they were ready to apply it, but at last seconds when Abraham was trying to kill his son, God saved him.No blood was sacrified for any reason.Abraham offered Isaac and God stopped him. The offering was to be made on Mount Moriah. Abraham prophesied that he and the lad would return and that God would provide himself a lamb. God did provide a ram. But later, the Lamb in the form of Christ, was offered on the same hills. Isaac, like Jesus, even carried his own wood. There are many more similarities if you wish to hear them.


Same also with Jesus was not killed, jews tried to kill him, but God saved him and raised up to God and Jesus will come back at the last day.
God is the light of heavens and earths, His light can't be hidden from any creature, they all have to see it easily and feel it without complications.Oh, he died completely as an offering to God. Then God raised him up from the dead. Such a thing is a small thing for God to do. God did not require of Abraham what he himself was unwilling to do. God was willing to do what he would not have Abraham to do, offer his Son as a sacrifice.

Share_Truth
Jun 3rd 2008, 08:06 PM
Jesus said he was God. As a prophet, are his words true?
As a prophet his "Original" words are true.


Yet, they line up well with the Old Testament which hasn't changed for years. The dead sea scrolls show how well they are preserved. And with the NT, we are more sure we have what was originally penned than we are of the writings of Shakespeare.

When does date the most old version of Bible christians have today? was it written since Jesus PBUH's life? did he write it? did men who saw him and listen to him write it themselves?




Abraham offered Isaac and God stopped him. The offering was to be made on Mount Moriah. Abraham prophesied that he and the lad would return and that God would provide himself a lamb. God did provide a ram. But later, the Lamb in the form of Christ, was offered on the same hills. Isaac, like Jesus, even carried his own wood. There are many more similarities if you wish to hear them.
Oh, he died completely as an offering to God. Then God raised him up from the dead. Such a thing is a small thing for God to do. God did not require of Abraham what he himself was unwilling to do. God was willing to do what he would not have Abraham to do, offer his Son as a sacrifice.

Right God is all powerfull and if He want something to happen it will, and It won't be fair if we compare God with Abraham, Abraham PBUH is human, prophet and God's servant..we are asked about what we do but God is not.

The version of stories about prophets you have in the Bible is different from what i believe.I can't take them from Bible (as it is now) while i don't believe Bible is original version which God had really revelated.

Brother Mark
Jun 3rd 2008, 08:15 PM
As a prophet his "Original" is true.

In the OT, God said a man whom would be God would come.

Isa 9:6
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
NASB

This was penned a long time before Jesus was born and was called Mighty God.


When does date the most old version of Bible christians have today? was it written since Jesus PBUH's life? did he write it? did men who saw him and listen to him write it themselves?

Many of the letters we have were penned by Peter, who sat at Jesus feet and John, who also learned from Christ. We also have Luke. I know you think the bible polluted. Many Muslims do. Yet, have you researched it to see? As I said before, we are more confident we have the words as originally penned by Paul, Peter and John than we are the words of many of Shakespeare's plays.



Right God is all powerfull and if He want something to happen it will, and It won't be fair if we compare God with Abraham, Abraham PBUH is human, prophet and God's servant..we are asked about what we do but God is not.

The version of stories about prophets you have in the Bible is different from what i believe.I can't take them from Bible (as it is now) while i don't believe Bible is original version which God had really revelated.

There are many more commonalities with Abraham and his son along with God and his son. It is what we call a shadow. It is a story where God reveals his plans through an illustration.

The OT book of Esther does not mention the name of God. Yet, in that story we see where the death of Mordecai was planned by one Haman. But when it was all said and done, the wooden gallows created by Haman ended up being his undoing. The very cross that Satan prepared for Jesus ended up being Satan's undoing.

How many OT pictures would one need? Noah is another great example. Jonah in the belly of the well for 3 days. But Abraham and Isaac are the most beautiful. The word love is first mentioned in scripture with Abraham and Isaac. God said "Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love..." Later we have a new testament verse that says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son..."

God was showing us through Abraham's example what he intended to do for us at a later time.

But alas, unless I missed it, I don't see the answer you provided for sin. If a man murders another, he will always be a murderer. What must happen to a murderer? Can all his good works undo his bad deed?

Share_Truth
Jun 3rd 2008, 09:41 PM
brother Mark

For you question about murder, there will be two things; since this first life (before last day) the law of God which he revelated in His books has to be applied by people who are in charge of it (in our days court).if the murder did wantedly then the punishement in the first life is death same as his crime, when he goes to God in the other life (after last day) God will decide his punishement no one can do or pretend what is it..because God is fair and also He is Merciful.If i do sins,small ones First I ask forgivness from The Lord repentance has to be honest, I promise I won't do again and feel regret about it, then God may forgive me if He want but for big sins which require that I give back others rights as murder, stealing..here I have to give back others right...Life against Life, give back what was stollen and ask forgivness from whom i did harm.

Only God can forgive or punish, I can not know, all what I have to do is paying for sins in this life if it's required (as i said about bigt sins) and ask forgivness and trying to be good and have good deeds.

About Jesus divinity matter I think we can not be agree as I believe all books before Bible and Bible are not original even scriptures of dead sea not written in Moses time, nor people who lived with him did.

The God of Moses is same as God of Jesus, if scriptures of Moses were not changed and original why will God send another prophet, why another book?it could have been enough for all humanity until last day only one book..(both were sent to jews in begining...)I think that the idea of Trinity is coming from jews who tried to change original Bible.Because God can not say contradictions or something complicated to understand.

markinro
Jun 3rd 2008, 11:39 PM
No at all, I am not very smart but I have lil brain at least to understand that stones (Budha or others) can't create me...:)
I believe in God, One God who created heavens and earths, who created me and you...God christians worship also, but i blieve Jesus is man created by God as Adam without father, and that he is the messenger of God like Abraham, Moses and all others sent by Him, Peace Be Upon Them all.

But there's a difference. Jesus was born of a human mother. Adam was literally created from the dust of the earth. The reference to Jesus being the 2nd Adam I think is a reference to a new beginning. You know from the teachings, miracles and the transfiguration of Jesus was not just a man and we have in Matthew that Jesus is God's son, in whom He was well pleased. Jesus had qualities of both man and God. Do you support the gospels being accurate accounts ?

Share_Truth
Jun 3rd 2008, 11:44 PM
But there's a difference. Jesus was born of a human mother. Adam was literally created from the dust of the earth. The reference to Jesus being the 2nd Adam I think is a reference to a new beginning. You know from the teachings, miracles and the transfiguration of Jesus was not just a man and we have in Matthew that Jesus is God's son, in whom He was well pleased. Jesus had qualities of both man and God. Do you support the gospels being accurate accounts ?
In what sence do you have in Matthew that Jesus is son of God, what does it mean "son" here???and is this in Matthew only or all scriptures telling same?

Brother Mark
Jun 4th 2008, 12:12 AM
brother Mark

For you question about murder, there will be two things; since this first life (before last day) the law of God which he revelated in His books has to be applied by people who are in charge of it (in our days court).if the murder did wantedly then the punishement in the first life is death same as his crime, when he goes to God in the other life (after last day) God will decide his punishement no one can do or pretend what is it..because God is fair and also He is Merciful.If i do sins,small ones First I ask forgivness from The Lord repentance has to be honest, I promise I won't do again and feel regret about it, then God may forgive me if He want but for big sins which require that I give back others rights as murder, stealing..here I have to give back others right...Life against Life, give back what was stollen and ask forgivness from whom i did harm.

Yet, what can be done to the murderer? Will God, who is holy simply turn the other way? Will He, who is just, bring no punishment? Will all the punishment God can muster change the fact the man was a murderer? What then must be done? If a man steals, can that act be undone? When God forgives him, does that remove the man from being a thief? How does a holy and just God come in contact with a man of sin?


Only God can forgive or punish, I can not know, all what I have to do is paying for sins in this life if it's required (as i said about bigt sins) and ask forgivness and trying to be good and have good deeds.

But how does your payment for sin erase it? It was still done. It still happened. No amount of good works erases the act of the sin you committed. No amount of punishment by God will ever change you from a thief to one who is not a thief. What then can be done with this permanent stain on our sinful soul?


About Jesus divinity matter I think we can not be agree as I believe all books before Bible and Bible are not original even scriptures of dead sea not written in Moses time, nor people who lived with him did.

If we cannot agree, then why ask? :hmm: You knew our answer would be based on the holy and unaltered word of God, the Holy Scriptures, i.e. the Christian Bible. You have believed a lie about them. Study them with an open mind. Do some research. As I have said previously, historically, we can be more sure we have what was actually written in the NT by the original authors than we are of Shakespeare's plays. We are more confident of these documents being original, based on historical evidence, than we are of documents brought into existence after the invention of the printing press. Take a look at some of Josh McDowell's books "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" is a good place to start.



The God of Moses is same as God of Jesus, if scriptures of Moses were not changed and original why will God send another prophet, why another book?it could have been enough for all humanity until last day only one book..(both were sent to jews in begining...)I think that the idea of Trinity is coming from jews who tried to change original Bible.Because God can not say contradictions or something complicated to understand.

One book does not even begin to reveal the vastness of God. Had God written all the works of Christ down, the world could not contain the book! God has a lot to say to us and the bible is such a small book. When I first went to school, I learned the alphabet. Then, after that, I learned to read. I learned to add, then subtract. Eventually I learned to do calculus and physics. That took a while. God has taught mankind as we went. He revealed to us along the way the more complete truth.

Genesis and the account of Abraham and Isaac is in complete agreement with the Father and his Son. The types are extra-ordinary. The prophesies of Christ death are breath taking in the OT. That is why you have been fed a lie about the validity of the Christian bible. It adds up so well, that men have to say it was forged and faked for it to be that accurate. But it is really the moving hand of the holy Spirit that wrote the bible through many generations and through many different men. Yet, all the scriptures point to One, Jesus Christ. He can be found in every old testament book. Esther, that never mentions God's name shows us Jesus from the beginning to the end.

Saved7
Jun 4th 2008, 03:07 AM
Yes Brother, I believe Jesus is a prophet, i do not find anything strange with it

Have you ever known a prophet to lie or to contradict what another prophet says?
The jews accused Jesus of blasphemy, and they also believed He was just a prophet. Problem with that whole blasphemy thing is that NO true prophet is capable of blasphemy. You don't experience God's presence and hear Him speak, and not know that you are just a fallable human being.
And no prophet speaking from God is going to say something that contradicts what the other prophets are saying. God will not lie, and God is the same yesterday, today and always. Therefore, it is impossible for a prophet to claim one thing about Himself, and another prophet to deny that very thing the first prophet claimed.
Jesus said....I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me.
He also said...Before Abraham was; I AM. This was a reference to who spoke to Moses, when He sent Moses to set the people free of Egypt. Moses asked God, when I go to tell your people that You have sent me, they will not believe me. What shall I tell them so they believe? God's reply was simply this; tell them, I AM that I AM, has sent you.:saint:

Isaiah prophesied of the suffering of the Messiah....

Isa 53:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&verse=1&version=kjv#1)¶Who hath believed our report?

Isa 53:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&verse=2&version=kjv#2)For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.

Isa 53:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&verse=3&version=kjv#3)He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Isa 53:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&verse=4&version=kjv#4)¶Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Isa 53:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&verse=5&version=kjv#5)But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Mat 27:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&verse=26&version=kjv#26)Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered [him] to be crucified. (stripes)

Luk 22:64 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Luk&chapter=22&verse=64&version=kjv#64)And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face, and asked him, saying, Prophesy, who is it that smote thee? (bruised)

Col 2:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&verse=13&version=kjv#13)And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Isa 53:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&verse=6&version=kjv#6)All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isa 53:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&verse=7&version=kjv#7)¶He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. (He did not defend Himself)

Isa 53:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&verse=8&version=kjv#8)He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.


Isa 53:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&verse=9&version=kjv#9)And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.

Luk 23:32 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Luk&chapter=23&verse=32&version=kjv#32)And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death. (the wicked)

Luk 23:50 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Luk&chapter=23&verse=50&version=kjv#50)¶And, behold, [there was] a man named Joseph, a counsellor; [and he was] a good man, and a just:

Luk 23:52 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Luk&chapter=23&verse=52&version=kjv#52)This [man] went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.

Luk 23:53 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Luk&chapter=23&verse=53&version=kjv#53)And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. (the grave of a rich man)


Isa 53:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&verse=10&version=kjv#10)¶Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Isa 53:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&verse=11&version=kjv#11)He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.



Eph 2:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eph&chapter=2&verse=16&version=kjv#16)And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:


Isa 53:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&verse=12&version=kjv#12)Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


Luk 23:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Luk&chapter=23&verse=34&version=kjv#34)Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

markinro
Jun 4th 2008, 12:28 PM
In what sence do you have in Matthew that Jesus is son of God, what does it mean "son" here???and is this in Matthew only or all scriptures telling same?

Matt 3:16
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

I believe it is only in Matthew but I'll check if there are other references.

Saved7
Jun 4th 2008, 02:52 PM
Share Truth,

I notice you tend to keep coming back to the idea that the original writings were true, but since then they have been corrupted.
Do you not believe that God is able to preserve His OWN Words? God is ALL powerful, He is able to do this.
Many of the christian cults [false teachings](mormon's, Jehovah's witnesses) also believe that the bible is not fully true. And they tend to have ONE main prophet, and just kind of believe what they want to believe about the bible. The problem with that is this, you can't just pick and choose what you believe about the bible. It either teaches the truth about God, or it doesn't. The thing is this, they all make these claims based on some "spiritual experience", but none of them can back it up with anything more than mere accusations. And if they would actually do their research, instead of blindly following their leaders into the pit, they would find that what they believe is a lie.
Many of these cults were started because the leader of the cult didn't understand or rejected much of what the bible said. Which left them open to deception through some "spiritual experience". Often they claim an angel told them something. Well here's what the bible says about those so-called angels, the bible says;...even satan transforms into an angel of light, and his ministers into ministers of righteousness. It doesn't say, that they ARE righteous, but they APPEAR as such. And it also says about these types of people who believe this stuff and call themselves prophets, that they are false prophets. The word says...if any man or an ANGEL comes preaching ANY OTHER gospel (good news) than the gospel we have preached, let him be accursed.:note:

People can be deceived by what they think are angels, but really they are demonic forces at work. If a person is not open to the truth, then they are likely to fall prey to such forces.
So please dear sir, do yourself a favor and be careful not to shut out anything anybody tells you just because you are told to believe one thing. That is a dangerous way to live, and die...since we know we have souls and one day they will be in one of two places. Heaven or hell. Be careful with your soul, and open your heart to the truth, and whatever that truth is, you will find it.
Jesus said it Himself, seek and you will find, knock and it will be opened to you, ask; and it shall be given you.

God is Truth, Jesus said; I am the way, the truth and the life....no one comes to the Father but by Me. He will not deceive you, IF INDEED it is the truth that you seek; but if you seek to prove a lie, well...God just might let you believe a lie.:(

You cannot have a lie without FIRST having truth.....everything God does, the devil tries to copy. Just read the book of Genesis, right from the beginning you will see how the devil always twists God's words....but he cannot twist God's words if God has not FIRST spoken those words.

Share_Truth
Jun 4th 2008, 05:42 PM
Hello Brother Mark,
How are you doing? hope everything is fine and you are happy and good.




Yet, what can be done to the murderer? Will God, who is holy simply turn the other way? Will He, who is just, bring no punishment? Will all the punishment God can muster change the fact the man was a murderer? What then must be done? If a man steals, can that act be undone? When God forgives him, does that remove the man from being a thief? How does a holy and just God come in contact with a man of sin?

But how does your payment for sin erase it? It was still done. It still happened. No amount of good works erases the act of the sin you committed. No amount of punishment by God will ever change you from a thief to one who is not a thief. What then can be done with this permanent stain on our sinful soul?




Everyone of us has 2 angels who in charge of writing down his deeds, one of good deeds and the other bad deeds since his life from the day he become responsible (from adolescence ) until death.while this life he do right and wrong, in between he is asking for forgivness. The last day (day of accounts in front of God) everyone will bring with him his book of deeds as witness on him, no one can lie because God know everything, his book will be read infront of all others(except those which God want to bless them because of their faith and love to Him God will not let others hearing their bad deeds)...All sins are their even forgiven ones, first God will call all those who has right on that man (people he did harm to, has stolen them,had treated badely, even those about whom he talked wrongly in their absence they will come) all will take from his good deeds as price of what he did wrong, if his good deeds are not enough they will give him from their bad deeds...after people rights, he will be asked for other sins and account all bad and good deeds, if good deeds are more and God want to bless him he will go to Paradise, if bad deeds are more and God want to bless him he will go to paradise if not he will go to hell as price for his bad deeds.

For Murder, if he already had payed his life (was killed by court following God's law) and felt guilty and regret,price paid (fair life againt life) God may forgive him and give paradise, but if he did not and God don't want to forgive him nor the person killed than he will go to hell and stay for all...

In Paradise (May God send us all there), perfect life, happyness, no sadness no problems no sins...Paradise is not enough to remove sins and erase them? for what will sins stay? after accounts.

In Hell (May God save us all from it), fire and torture for ever, is this not enough as punishement to clear sins..(in that case it doesn't matter if they are removed or not as Hell is for ever...)


If we cannot agree, then why ask? :hmm: You knew our answer would be based on the holy and unaltered word of God, the Holy Scriptures, i.e. the Christian Bible. You have believed a lie about them. Study them with an open mind. Do some research. As I have said previously, historically, we can be more sure we have what was actually written in the NT by the original authors than we are of Shakespeare's plays. We are more confident of these documents being original, based on historical evidence, than we are of documents brought into existence after the invention of the printing press. Take a look at some of Josh McDowell's books "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" is a good place to start.

I am asking and looking for logic answer which will satisfay simple mind, not looking for proofs based on ourdays scriptures.I will try to read that documents of Josh McDowell's as you said.But still waiting for an answer how many years after Jesus PBUH the first Bible wich you have now was written?



One book does not even begin to reveal the vastness of God. Had God written all the works of Christ down, the world could not contain the book! God has a lot to say to us and the bible is such a small book. When I first went to school, I learned the alphabet. Then, after that, I learned to read. I learned to add, then subtract. Eventually I learned to do calculus and physics. That took a while. God has taught mankind as we went. He revealed to us along the way the more complete truth.
If it was the case, why will people who lived and died in Moses PBUH's time who believed in him be asked for their deeds if the revelation was not finished yet?it will be unfair then, so to know God and how to love Him you will have to live since all prophets times to have all the knowledge...how come?



Genesis and the account of Abraham and Isaac is in complete agreement with the Father and his Son. The types are extra-ordinary. The prophesies of Christ death are breath taking in the OT. That is why you have been fed a lie about the validity of the Christian bible. It adds up so well, that men have to say it was forged and faked for it to be that accurate. But it is really the moving hand of the holy Spirit that wrote the bible through many generations and through many different men. Yet, all the scriptures point to One, Jesus Christ. He can be found in every old testament book. Esther, that never mentions God's name shows us Jesus from the beginning to the end.

I do not believe in any lies, i see, look and try understand, i believe God won't make his religion not understood and complicated, religion is sent to all human being...they all have to be able understanding it...

Thank you Brother Mark for this precious dialogue, i really appreciate your care to satisfy my curiosity.

Brother Mark
Jun 4th 2008, 05:50 PM
he will be asked for other sins and account all bad and good deeds, if good deeds are more and God want to bless him he will go to Paradise, if bad deeds are more and God want to bless him he will go to paradise if not he will go to hell as price for his bad deeds.

For Murder, if he already had payed his life (was killed by court following God's law) and felt guilty and regret,price paid (fair life againt life) God may forgive him and give paradise, but if he did not and God don't want to forgive him nor the person killed than he will go to hell and stay for all...

In Paradise, perfect life, happyness, no sadness no problems no sins...Paradise is not enough to remove sins and erase them? for what will sins stay? after accounts.

Yet through all this, the sins still exist. You still did them. They are still there. When a man goes to prison a murderer, he leaves prison a murderer. If he goes to prison a thief, he leaves prison a thief. You enter into judgment a sinner and you leave judgment a sinner. All good deeds nor can paying your debt remove the fact you are guilty. What then must be done? You are still a sinner. You still stand before a Holy God a sinner. No amount of good deeds will change that. You still, are a sinner. The sin clings to you. How can a holy God forgive a sinner. For a man murders because murder is in his heart. A man steals because stealing is in him. One's actions reveal who he is. So all your answers do not deal with the root issue. What is to be done with you, a sinner? All your good deeds do not erase the bad ones. A holy God is going to ignore them?

Since you didn't answer the following part of my previous post, I leave it again for an answer...

But how does your payment for sin erase it? It was still done. It still happened. No amount of good works erases the act of the sin you committed. No amount of punishment by God will ever change you from a thief to one who is not a thief. What then can be done with this permanent stain on our sinful soul?



If we cannot agree, then why ask? :hmm: You knew our answer would be based on the holy and unaltered word of God, the Holy Scriptures, i.e. the Christian Bible. You have believed a lie about them. Study them with an open mind. Do some research. As I have said previously, historically, we can be more sure we have what was actually written in the NT by the original authors than we are of Shakespeare's plays. We are more confident of these documents being original, based on historical evidence, than we are of documents brought into existence after the invention of the printing press. Take a look at some of Josh McDowell's books "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" is a good place to start.




One book does not even begin to reveal the vastness of God. Had God written all the works of Christ down, the world could not contain the book! God has a lot to say to us and the bible is such a small book. When I first went to school, I learned the alphabet. Then, after that, I learned to read. I learned to add, then subtract. Eventually I learned to do calculus and physics. That took a while. God has taught mankind as we went. He revealed to us along the way the more complete truth.

Genesis and the account of Abraham and Isaac is in complete agreement with the Father and his Son. The types are extra-ordinary. The prophesies of Christ death are breath taking in the OT. That is why you have been fed a lie about the validity of the Christian bible. It adds up so well, that men have to say it was forged and faked for it to be that accurate. But it is really the moving hand of the holy Spirit that wrote the bible through many generations and through many different men. Yet, all the scriptures point to One, Jesus Christ. He can be found in every old testament book. Esther, that never mentions God's name shows us Jesus from the beginning to the end.[/quote]

Share_Truth
Jun 4th 2008, 06:11 PM
Have you ever known a prophet to lie or to contradict what another prophet says?
The jews accused Jesus of blasphemy, and they also believed He was just a prophet. Problem with that whole blasphemy thing is that NO true prophet is capable of blasphemy. You don't experience God's presence and hear Him speak, and not know that you are just a fallable human being.
And no prophet speaking from God is going to say something that contradicts what the other prophets are saying. God will not lie, and God is the same yesterday, today and always. Therefore, it is impossible for a prophet to claim one thing about Himself, and another prophet to deny that very thing the first prophet claimed.
Jesus said....I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me.
He also said...Before Abraham was; I AM. This was a reference to who spoke to Moses, when He sent Moses to set the people free of Egypt. Moses asked God, when I go to tell your people that You have sent me, they will not believe me. What shall I tell them so they believe? God's reply was simply this; tell them, I AM that I AM, has sent you.:saint:

Isaiah prophesied of the suffering of the Messiah....


No my brother, please do not misunderstand me, I never said Jesus PBUH was not telling truth...never.I said he was prophet of God ,he did not say he is God (no where in Bible also this clearly said)...After God raised him up, people start inventing and interpreting and those who wrote the Bible created Trinity notion...it's what i believe until now as Jesus was only human being God created him in special way as He created Adam.All prophets suffered from their people look at Noh PBUH his people din't want to trust him, they were making fun of him, see our father Abraham his people put him inside the fire only because he said "do not worship stones, worship God"...why Jesus will be an exception?
If Jesus is not God, the last day he will be witness and tell God, i did not tell them to worship me but they did after i went...

Share_Truth
Jun 4th 2008, 06:19 PM
Since you didn't answer the following part of my previous post, I leave it again for an answer...

I did change my post, had problem of connection and posted before finishing.sorry please check it again.



Yet through all this, the sins still exist. You still did them. They are still there.
When a man goes to prison a murderer, he leaves prison a murderer. If he goes to prison
a thief, he leaves prison a thief. You enter into judgment a sinner and you leave judgment
a sinner. All good deeds nor can paying your debt remove the fact you are guilty. What
then must be done? You are still a sinner. You still stand before a Holy God a sinner. No
amount of good deeds will change that. You still, are a sinner. The sin clings to you. How
can a holy God forgive a sinner. For a man murders because murder is in his heart. A man
steals because stealing is in him. One's actions reveal who he is. So all your answers do
not deal with the root issue. What is to be done with you, a sinner? All your good deeds
do not erase the bad ones. A holy God is going to ignore them?


The Holy God is going to make him pay by going to hell if He want to, going to Hell
is being there for all no one can save him from it, will stay there forever suffering,
then not only he is siner, he will be paying infinitively....no one will care about
him after that being siner or not, because it does not matter once he is there.

If God want to bless someone with paradise and forgive his sins, He is The most Merciful,
The most Gracious, The most Generous, is God less mercifull and forgiving than human?
why does my mother forgive me when i do something wrong and ask her forgivness,
she will forgive and forget about it, no one will remember it, Is Mother more merciful
than God?!!!!!!!!!God is more closer to us than our hearts veins...

If someone steals once because he was weak and Satan push him to do, after that feels
regret, payed for it and decide never to do again, will he be bad all his life??
He will be siner because sins will remain of course but until the day of accounts,when God decide Paradise or hell, but his life won't stop here waiting for last day and being decided as stealler for all his life.Not fair,God teach us
forgivness...4 conditions for honest repentence :

*Stop doing this sin in present time,
*To realize the sin and regret honestly for making it,
*decide and promise never do it again,
*Give back people's rights if there is any (stealing) and pay for it if required (prison...)

All that made, God may accept repentance and forgive it(will know the day of account),but as sinner i do not know if God
forgave me or not, i do those things honestly and ask for forgivness this will clean my heart,
and i have to forget about it and start living new life happily and in optimist way being
new person with new heart.

Examlpe of it, i have exams, the first subject i did not answer nicely as i was lazy and
careless,did not study for it,i realized it i felt regret and decided to change.And
infront of me still 8 other subjects to success this year, i have time and
energy and will to study hard for it, will i stop studying and will think i failed in the
first subject so I am not good in studies? this way i will be sad and never can do better
in the rest.But if i concentrate about the rest i may pass.

Saved7
Jun 4th 2008, 07:10 PM
No my brother, please do not misunderstand me, I never said Jesus PBUH was not telling truth...never.I said he was prophet of God ,he did not say he is God (no where in Bible also this clearly said)...After God raised him up, people start inventing and interpreting and those who wrote the Bible created Trinity notion...it's what i believe until now as Jesus was only human being God created him in special way as He created Adam.All prophets suffered from their people look at Noh PBUH his people din't want to trust him, they were making fun of him, see our father Abraham his people put him inside the fire only because he said "do not worship stones, worship God"...why Jesus will be an exception?
If Jesus is not God, the last day he will be witness and tell God, i did not tell them to worship me but they did after i went...


To declare yourself "I AM" is to say "I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob"....Jesus clearly stated this. To declare yourself as THE TRUTH, is to declare yourself God....to declare yourself as the Son of God, is to make yourself equal to God. Even the jews who rejected him recognized this, they picked up stones to cast at Him, when He made these claims. He also said I am IN THE FATHER and THE FATHER IS IN ME....He also said He came from the Father. He declared that God is indeed His father, therefore, by saying that He is not the Son of God you reject what He Himself said.:saint:

But let me share with you what God said of HIMSELF.....

Zec 12:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Zec&chapter=12&verse=10&version=kjv#10)¶And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

This was God speaking here about Himself, being peirced by His own people, as the man Jesus, who is the HIM spoken of in the same sentence.


Please notice that Jesus HIMSELF declares in this verse that God is His Father....and that HE IS THE SON.

Mat 11:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=11&verse=27&version=kjv#27)All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].

Now read what Jesus says to Thomas when he asks Jesus to show them the Father....

Jhn 14:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&verse=9&version=kjv#9)Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?


And John the Baptist, he also was a prophet, and testified of who Jesus is...

Jhn 1:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=1&verse=34&version=kjv#34)And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

And here is where Jesus declares Himself the Son of God to a man that was born blind, but Jesus gave him his sight....

Jhn 9:35 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=9&verse=35&version=kjv#35)¶Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
Jhn 9:36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=9&verse=36&version=kjv#36)He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?

Jhn 9:37 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=9&verse=37&version=kjv#37)And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.


It is Jesus who was talking with Him, and Jesus who said this...He often referred to Himself in the third person.:)

Jhn 9:38 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=9&verse=38&version=kjv#38)And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

And Jesus did not stop Him from worshipping Him....;)

Share_Truth
Jun 4th 2008, 07:19 PM
To declare yourself "I AM" is to say "I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob"....Jesus clearly stated this. To declare yourself as THE TRUTH, is to declare yourself God....to declare yourself as the Son of God, is to make yourself equal to God. Even the jews who rejected him recognized this, they picked up stones to cast at Him, when He made these claims. He also said I am IN THE FATHER and THE FATHER IS IN ME....He also said He came from the Father. He declared that God is indeed His father, therefore, by saying that He is not the Son of God you reject what He Himself said.:saint:


*Corinthians 14:33 that “... God is not the author of confusion ...”
*“... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.” (Luke 4:8)

Trinity doctrine is a confusion, I am i wrong here?
Jesus himself said God is one, only Him we have to worship.

Saved7
Jun 4th 2008, 07:28 PM
Also, I wanted to say this...it was prophesied by the prophet Isaiah that He would not boast and brag about who He is...

Isa 42:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=42&verse=2&version=kjv#2)He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

Could you imagine if He had??? Would you believe any man that walked around declaring Himself God???:rolleyes: So as to fulfill the prophecy, He never outright said...I am God. But instead He let His works speak for Him. As Jesus said, if you won't believe His words, then believe Him for the works that He did. Who else has done the things He did? Jesus brought several people back to life, that we KNOW of...He healed the sick simply by touching the, made whole the lame, caused the blind to see, all this was prophesied about Him. And the things we see written in the NT are only a few of the things that He did and said....John the apostle said in the book of John; that if they were to write all that He said and did, that the whole world would not be able to contain the books that would be written of Him.

God said that the Messiah would speak in parables, and He did this. God also speaks in a mystery, that only those who desire the truth will see it.
I do pray that the truth is what you seek, God loves you more than you can ever imagine; so much so that He sent His only BEGOTTEN Son to save you, by paying for your sins. :hug:

Saved7
Jun 4th 2008, 07:36 PM
*Corinthians 14:33 that “... God is not the author of confusion ...”
*“... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.” (Luke 4:8)

Trinity doctrine is a confusion, I am i wrong here?
Jesus himself said God is one, only Him we have to worship.


You are right...it is difficult to understand, but it is not confusion to those who believe...just a bit difficult to describe.;)

God also said that a husband and wife are to be ONE flesh...yet they are two. God speaks in ways that we cannot FULLY understand, but we can begin to grasp and understand. Confusion would be if I were to say that JEsus is NOT God in the flesh, but yet I can worship him, even though the bible is clear that we are only to worship and serve God. However, we are not saying that JEsus is not God, we are saying that Jesus IS INDEED God, therefore, it is acceptable to and necessary to worship and serve Him.

Let me show you another verse...

Here again is the prophet Isaiah...

Isa 9:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=9&verse=6&version=kjv#6)For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


What does that scripture tell you? Please take some time to seek God's face and ask Him to help you understand this so that you see what God is saying of this child that was GIVEN for the sins of the world.
It's this simple...say God, whoever you are, please show me the truth, it is the truth I seek and desire to know.
Then trust Him to love you enough to show you the truth.:hug:

Share_Truth
Jun 4th 2008, 08:26 PM
You are right...it is difficult to understand, but it is not confusion to those who believe...just a bit difficult to describe.;)

God also said that a husband and wife are to be ONE flesh...yet they are two. God speaks in ways that we cannot FULLY understand, but we can begin to grasp and understand. Confusion would be if I were to say that JEsus is NOT God in the flesh, but yet I can worship him, even though the bible is clear that we are only to worship and serve God. However, we are not saying that JEsus is not God, we are saying that Jesus IS INDEED God, therefore, it is acceptable to and necessary to worship and serve Him.

Let me show you another verse...

Here again is the prophet Isaiah...

Isa 9:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Isa&chapter=9&verse=6&version=kjv#6)For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


What does that scripture tell you? Please take some time to seek God's face and ask Him to help you understand this so that you see what God is saying of this child that was GIVEN for the sins of the world.
It's this simple...say God, whoever you are, please show me the truth, it is the truth I seek and desire to know.
Then trust Him to love you enough to show you the truth.:hug:

My sins I did them, and I have to pay for them unless God forgive me.God is Fair and Merciful.
What if Jesus PBUH is not God in flesh and you don't have to worship him, you have only to follow him as prophet and you have only to worship God...What does it mean "son of God" exactly?

And for you, personnally do you understand Trinity nicely and clearly? take some time to think...i said "understand" not "believe"..there is big difference.

I will do what you said, same time i will ask you to try something, is it Ok? In the night before sleeping or if you get up since the night, with clean heart ask God (as you call God father not Jesus) ask God only without thinking of Jesus, to show you truth and guide you to it...will you try?

Thank you sister..:)

Saved7
Jun 4th 2008, 10:18 PM
[/QUOTE]Share_Truth;1661216]My sins I did them, and I have to pay for them unless God forgive me.[/QUOTE]

No...you don't have to pay for them...God made that payment in the flesh of His Son.


What if Jesus PBUH is not God in flesh and you don't have to worship him, you have only to follow him as prophet and you have only to worship God...What does it mean "son of God" exactly?

The same thing it means to be the son or daughter of anybody....God is LITERALLY His Father, it was by a miracle (not s*x) through the Holy Spirit that Jesus was concieved. Even the angel who told Mary of this, and her husband to be Joseph, declared that her child would be called the son of the Most High. (another term for God)



And for you, personnally do you understand Trinity nicely and clearly? take some time to think...i said "understand" not "believe"..there is big difference.



Yes I do, as clearly and nicely as my human mind allows.:) I have no doubts about Jesus.


I will do what you said, same time i will ask you to try something, is it Ok? In the night before sleeping or if you get up since the night, with clean heart ask God (as you call God father not Jesus) ask God only without thinking of Jesus, to show you truth and guide you to it...will you try?

I did this 9 years ago, this is how I became a christian.:saint:
If you would like to know the details of that event, by all means, read my testimony that I linked here.:) And pay particular attention to how I described "Father, Son and Holy Spirit".;)

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=77958

dljc
Jun 5th 2008, 02:12 PM
Hello Share_Truth and welcome to the board!

From John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

John 14:
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.


In verse 26 that is underlined, Jesus Himself references to the Trinity. He names all three parts of the Godhead.

Now look back a few verses.

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If there was any other way, wouldn't He have told us?Share_Truth,

What are your thoughts on this post I made earlier, you seem to have missed it.

Share_Truth
Jun 5th 2008, 02:23 PM
Share_Truth,

What are your thoughts on this post I made earlier, you seem to have missed it.

Thank you my brother,

I read your post, but actually I am looking for logical and simple understanding away from any scriptures (if you have look on previous posts I believe until now that Bible of today is not original and have been changed by man hands).
:)

Vhayes
Jun 5th 2008, 02:27 PM
Thank you my brother,

I read your post, but actually I am looking for logical and simple understanding away from any scriptures (if you have look on previous posts I believe until now that scriptures of today are not original and have been changed by man hands).
:)
Do you also believe the Koran to have been changed by man's hand?

Vhayes
Jun 5th 2008, 02:29 PM
Share Truth -

Someone else may very well have used this analogy - if so, I apologize in advance.

Water is H2O -

Steam is H2O
Liquid is H2O
Ice is H2O

ALL are water - they are just different forms of water.

Does that help you any at all?

dljc
Jun 5th 2008, 02:35 PM
Thank you my brother,

I read your post, but actually I am looking for logical and simple understanding away from any scriptures (if you have look on previous posts I believe until now that scriptures of today are not original and have been changed by man hands).
:)Well, you see my logical and simple understanding of the question is based on those scriptures. This is where you don't understand the role of the Holy Spirit.

2Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The author that you claim wrote the book, was only the pen, God used to write it.

But in essence you are looking to debate this issue as long as you can so your message can be heard correct?

Revinius
Jun 5th 2008, 03:45 PM
Its hard to discuss with someone that wont accept any of the documents provided on the grounds of their unhistoricised belief in their lack of integrity.

Share_Truth
Jun 5th 2008, 03:46 PM
Well, you see my logical and simple understanding of the question is based on those scriptures. This is where you don't understand the role of the Holy Spirit.

2Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The author that you claim wrote the book, was only the pen, God used to write it.

But in essence you are looking to debate this issue as long as you can so your message can be heard correct?

Brother dljc,

I am not looking for debate, for me it's only dialogue from wich i try to understand.Any way waiting for brother Mark post, i like the way he is dealing with things and after that i will ask to close this thread.

thank you

Saved7
Jun 5th 2008, 04:01 PM
I did change my post, had problem of connection and posted before finishing.sorry please check it again.



The Holy God is going to make him pay by going to hell if He want to, going to Hell
is being there for all no one can save him from it, will stay there forever suffering,
then not only he is siner, he will be paying infinitively....no one will care about
him after that being siner or not, because it does not matter once he is there.

If God want to bless someone with paradise and forgive his sins, He is The most Merciful,
The most Gracious, The most Generous,
.


You say that God is the most gracious and merciful and so forth, but how can he be if you constantly are left wondering and fearing that big IF God forgives you, then you don't have to suffer in hell forever, and ever and ever and ever and so on.:(
Our God made a way, so you don't have to wonder IF, but it's up to you to make that choice. The only IF, that exists, is IF you believe on the Son of God, you go to heaven. No if's and's or butt's about that. The most merciful God, the most gracious, and generous, and LOVING God, paid for your sins.
Now I ask you, which is more merciful, the one who let's you live your entire life in fear of IF, or the One, who gave His Son for you, so you can CHOOSE your destiny?:saint:

Share_Truth
Jun 5th 2008, 04:22 PM
You say that God is the most gracious and merciful and so forth, but how can he be if you constantly are left wondering and fearing that big IF God forgives you, then you don't have to suffer in hell forever, and ever and ever and ever and so on.:(
Our God made a way, so you don't have to wonder IF, but it's up to you to make that choice. The only IF, that exists, is IF you believe on the Son of God, you go to heaven. No if's and's or butt's about that. The most merciful God, the most gracious, and generous, and LOVING God, paid for your sins.
Now I ask you, which is more merciful, the one who let's you live your entire life in fear of IF, or the One, who gave His Son for you, so you can CHOOSE your destiny?:saint:

I use "IF" because I am human and I do not know what God will do, I don't have right to decide it, He is God, He know what we are thinking we can't know what He want to do...if i can decide definitively that I will go to paradise than i will stop being good, what's the use of doing good things..same for hell(may God save us all from it, amen) what's the use of changing and being good if someone is sure he will go there.

We are servants of God, we have to give Him respect as our Lord, same time we love Him and we try to get His Mercy.

Our relation with God is not based on fear only, this way it won't have any sence...it's based on both Love and fear, you love Him and thank Him for favors and hoping more good things from Him, and fear His anger by avoiding forbidden things (having illegal relations out of marriage, making lies, stealing, talking badly to others, misrespecting parents...etc) and doing what He orderd us to do,praying, being good with others espacilly listening to parents (in all things except wrong), giving charity to poor, helping our neighbours and care for them....
If a child do wrong thing and he knows he wont have any punishement for it and only it will be accepted, he will keep on doing it.
Love only is not enough in our relation with God, we need to work also and listen also...:)

Vhayes
Jun 5th 2008, 05:28 PM
I use "IF" because I am human and I do not know what God will do, I don't have right to decide it, He is God, He know what we are thinking we can't know what He want to do...if i can decide definitively that I will go to paradise than i will stop being good, what's the use of doing good things..same for hell(may God save us all from it, amen) what's the use of changing and being good if someone is sure he will go there.

We are servants of God, we have to give Him respect as our Lord, same time we love Him and we try to get His Mercy.

Our relation with God is not based on fear only, this way it won't have any sence...it's based on both Love and fear, you love Him and thank Him for favors and hoping more good things from Him, and fear His anger by avoiding forbidden things (having illegal relations out of marriage, making lies, stealing, talking badly to others, misrespecting parents...etc) and doing what He orderd us to do,praying, being good with others espacilly listening to parents (in all things except wrong), giving charity to poor, helping our neighbours and care for them....
If a child do wrong thing and he knows he wont have any punishement for it and only it will be accepted, he will keep on doing it.
Love only is not enough in our relation with God, we need to work also and listen also...:)
ShareTruth, When you were born into a family, were you loved and trained in the way you should go? Or were you thrown out of the house because of the first thing you did that was "wrong"?

Christians believe we are children belonging to the Father. He loves us and will show us how we should grow. We don't "do" things so He will give us "stuff" - we "do" things because He has placed a love for others within us.
We don't "Not do" things because we're afraid, we don't do certain things because we DO love our Father and know it hurts Him when we misbehave.

Does that make sense?

Saved7
Jun 5th 2008, 05:39 PM
if i can decide definitively that I will go to paradise than i will stop being good, what's the use of doing good things..same for hell(may God save us all from it, amen) what's the use of changing and being good if someone is sure he will go there.

:)


This simply isn't true dear friend; when I came to Christ, I knew for certain that I was going to heaven; still do...and I live a better more holy life now than I did back then. I do it for many reasons....one is out of gratitude and love for God. Another is to bring glory to God, it's all about His glory.

But ultimately it's because I have been born again; which means I have been changed on the inside.:pp I literally became a different person. AS the scriptures say, "if any man is in Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE".
The book of James puts it like this....

Jam 2:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jam&chapter=2&verse=19&version=kjv#19)Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
(But the devils go hell, so what does this say to you? If you believe, you will live like you believe, unlike the devils. They believe, but they do not fear or respect God, therefore they rebel, we as believers, are NOT in rebellion, if we live like we are in rebellion, then our faith is no faith at all.)

Jam 2:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jam&chapter=2&verse=20&version=kjv#20)But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Basically what James is saying, that if indeed we believe, then it will show through the life we live....Jesus had this to say about it..

Mat 7:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=16&version=kjv#16)Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Mat 7:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=17&version=kjv#17)Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

so you see, being saved and knowing that you are going to heaven is not a reason to sin, indeed, it is the very opposite. If you believe, you will live like you believe...
Paul had this to say about those who think they can go on sinning because they are going to heaven....

Rom 6:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=6&verse=15&version=kjv#15)¶What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

While it is true that there are some who would pervert the gospel and use it as a license to sin, that is not what the true gospel is. It is not a license to sin, but it is the freedom FROM sin, the freedom to not feel as strongly tempted by sin as your common man...it is a new desire placed in you to NOT sin. Once you become a christian, sinning becomes very difficult to do, you become repulsed by it, not just mentally, but spiritually also.

Jesus said this....Jhn 3:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=3&verse=3&version=kjv#3)Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=3&verse=6&version=kjv#6)That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

2Cr 5:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Cr&chapter=5&verse=17&version=kjv#17)Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The salvation that is in Christ, is more than just a guarentee of entry into heaven, it is the gaining of a new nature...our new nature doesn't desire sin, it desires righteousness and holyness. If we try to live a good and holy life outside of Christ, it is a lot of hard work and struggling with our fleshes natural desires to sin...(fornication, lies, adultery, stealing, perversions, murders, and so forth).
Jesus said, all sins come from our hearts, these things take place in our hearts first, and if a man even so much as LOOKS at another woman with lust in his heart toward her, he is guilty of adultery.
But once we come to Christ, these things that take place in our hearts, begin to drop off...naturally. Without trying, though for some certain area's in their lives are tougher to over come, when you compare their desires BEFORE Christ, to their desires AFTER coming to Christ, there is a big difference.
It's not just a matter of "trying to be good", it's a matter of simply becoming good, more and more like Christ, as we grow in Him and come to KNOW Him more and more. Our God is knowable, we can tell you about His "character" and what to EXPECT of Him, like we would a best friend.
There is "knowing of" or "knowing about" God, and knowing what some writings SAY about God; but then there is KNOWING GOD Himself, the person of God; having a relationship with Him. He has spoken to me on several occassions, literally, and not imagined, and not just me "thinking" but He has spoken to me and He is so kind and tender and loving. That's a part of knowing God; hearing from Him and knowing how much He loves YOU.
And as you come to know Jesus more and more, you become more and more like Him; that's the whole idea, to be made into God's image as it said in the beginning....God made man in His image, in His image made He them male and female.

watchinginawe
Jun 5th 2008, 05:47 PM
Thank you my brother,

I read your post, but actually I am looking for logical and simple understanding away from any scriptures (if you have look on previous posts I believe until now that Bible of today is not original and have been changed by man hands).
:)The Apostle Paul offered this to Timonthy:

II Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

When we search for the "logical and simple understanding away from any scriptures" we are presenting ourselves with "itching ears". This is the door to "personal truths". In that case, whatever we find "logical and simple" to us is "our truth". Since that kind of search is tainted with our own lusts, "our truth" will also be corrupted by what we accept as "logical and simple".

So quite simply, the easiest way to understand the Trinity is through scripture.

Here is part of the problem with your trying to understand the Trinity though. You said:
As you say Jesus, God father and Holy spirit are three making God, also 3 dimensions of the space are making the space..good, but....
Taking one dimension of the space (X for example) is "a part of the space" and it's not the space itself...but why you say Jesus is God, according to this example Jesus must be a part of God not God...If you cannot accept that God's essence might have more than one simultaneous component as revealed in scripture then you will never accept the Truth of the Trinity.

Consider as a comparison how we perceive the color White. The color White can be made from equal components of the primary colors Red, Green, and Blue (read more here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White)). You might say, "but brother wia, Red would then be only one component of White, or 'a part of White', and not White itself". And that would be the beginning to understanding. Because the corollary to that is that by removing Red you would then not perceive White. Even diminishing Red just a little bit would not result in White. White exists in the equal simultaneous existence of Red, Green, and Blue. Also, seeing at a spot in the universe the color Red only does not deny the existence of Green and Blue. Red can be perceived separate from Green and Blue.

Perhaps you have only seen "White", or perhaps only Red, Green, or Blue, and do not care to know more about it. But if you are seeing what you perceive to be white on whatever display device you are using to read this post, get a magnifying glass out and take a much closer look. If you are using an LCD display, you might see something like the following:

BroRog
Jun 5th 2008, 10:42 PM
Share_Truth,

The following explanation was given to me as a child. And even though I wasn't a Christian at the time, I totally got it. I was a little kid with a child's mind but I actually understood it. The Trinity is hard to understand, but the following explanation is easy.

Imagine a bunch of Ants on the ground. Suppose God wanted to make himself known to the ants in a way they could understand. He would go down to the ground and become an ant and live among the ants so that they might come to know something about him. Is he kind, gentle, righteous, good, strong, helpful, loyal, obedient, and humble? The ants will know God by the way he acts among ants.

That's Jesus. God came down to live among human beings to teach us something about himself. Jesus was the very reflection of God himself, as it says in Hebrews, [Jesus is] "the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature." Jesus represents to our mind God's exact nature, a visible and tangible presentation of what God is like. As Paul says in Colossians, "For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form." Jesus himself puts it this way, "If you have seen me, you have seen the father." Jesus and the Apostles see a one-for-one correspondence between Jesus and God such that if we have seen Jesus we have seen the father. Just as John says elsewhere, "No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."

The Greek word behind "explained" is exegeomai, from which we get our word "exegesis" to unfold or declare a teaching. Jesus is the exegesis of God. Jesus explains God. Jesus makes God fully known to us because Jesus has the character of God in a form we can understand, i.e. in bodily form. Jesus represents God; he reflects God's glory; he is the word made flesh.

I'm purposely trying to avoid Trinitarian Language.

Not only is Jesus God incarnate, God was working through Jesus to reconcile the world to himself. Jesus says God gave him the authority to forgive sins.

"But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins "-- He said to the paralytic-- "I say to you, rise, take up your pallet and go home.

Who on earth has the authority to forgive sins? God? Jesus says he does.

Paul says in another place,

Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

And again in another place,

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

No other person can claim that. God was not reconciling the world through Moses or Mohamed. God worked through Jesus Christ. And we worship Jesus because God gave Jesus all authority, both on earth and in heaven. Moses didn't go to the cross for us and neither did Mohamed.

[I pray that] the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe -- in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come.

:amen:

Share_Truth
Jun 7th 2008, 12:06 PM
This simply isn't true dear friend; when I came to Christ, I knew for certain that I was going to heaven; still do...and I live a better more holy life now than I did back then. I do it for many reasons....one is out of gratitude and love for God. Another is to bring glory to God, it's all about His glory.

But ultimately it's because I have been born again; which means I have been changed on the inside.:pp I literally became a different person. AS the scriptures say, "if any man is in Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE".
The book of James puts it like this....

Jam 2:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jam&chapter=2&verse=19&version=kjv#19)Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
(But the devils go hell, so what does this say to you? If you believe, you will live like you believe, unlike the devils. They believe, but they do not fear or respect God, therefore they rebel, we as believers, are NOT in rebellion, if we live like we are in rebellion, then our faith is no faith at all.)

Jam 2:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jam&chapter=2&verse=20&version=kjv#20)But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Basically what James is saying, that if indeed we believe, then it will show through the life we live....Jesus had this to say about it..

Mat 7:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=16&version=kjv#16)Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Mat 7:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=17&version=kjv#17)Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

so you see, being saved and knowing that you are going to heaven is not a reason to sin, indeed, it is the very opposite. If you believe, you will live like you believe...
Paul had this to say about those who think they can go on sinning because they are going to heaven....

Rom 6:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=6&verse=15&version=kjv#15)¶What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

While it is true that there are some who would pervert the gospel and use it as a license to sin, that is not what the true gospel is. It is not a license to sin, but it is the freedom FROM sin, the freedom to not feel as strongly tempted by sin as your common man...it is a new desire placed in you to NOT sin. Once you become a christian, sinning becomes very difficult to do, you become repulsed by it, not just mentally, but spiritually also.

Jesus said this....Jhn 3:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=3&verse=3&version=kjv#3)Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=3&verse=6&version=kjv#6)That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

2Cr 5:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Cr&chapter=5&verse=17&version=kjv#17)Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The salvation that is in Christ, is more than just a guarentee of entry into heaven, it is the gaining of a new nature...our new nature doesn't desire sin, it desires righteousness and holyness. If we try to live a good and holy life outside of Christ, it is a lot of hard work and struggling with our fleshes natural desires to sin...(fornication, lies, adultery, stealing, perversions, murders, and so forth).
Jesus said, all sins come from our hearts, these things take place in our hearts first, and if a man even so much as LOOKS at another woman with lust in his heart toward her, he is guilty of adultery.
But once we come to Christ, these things that take place in our hearts, begin to drop off...naturally. Without trying, though for some certain area's in their lives are tougher to over come, when you compare their desires BEFORE Christ, to their desires AFTER coming to Christ, there is a big difference.
It's not just a matter of "trying to be good", it's a matter of simply becoming good, more and more like Christ, as we grow in Him and come to KNOW Him more and more. Our God is knowable, we can tell you about His "character" and what to EXPECT of Him, like we would a best friend.
There is "knowing of" or "knowing about" God, and knowing what some writings SAY about God; but then there is KNOWING GOD Himself, the person of God; having a relationship with Him. He has spoken to me on several occassions, literally, and not imagined, and not just me "thinking" but He has spoken to me and He is so kind and tender and loving. That's a part of knowing God; hearing from Him and knowing how much He loves YOU.
And as you come to know Jesus more and more, you become more and more like Him; that's the whole idea, to be made into God's image as it said in the beginning....God made man in His image, in His image made He them male and female.
You know for certain you are going to heaven??where is modesty infront of God saying that? Jesus PBUH in Bible when a young jew came to him asking him what shall he do to go to heaven calling him "Master" what did Jesus answered "what are you calling me good for?" Jesus being as you describe him now also he is "Humble" does not say he is good, saying you are going certainely to heaven is alot bigger than saying "I am good"...so all christian think this way are certain to go to heaven?

I wish and hope to go to heaven being optimist and asking for God mercy and forgivness, but i never can say it...or be sure of it.We are human...Jesus being prophet and better than all of us was alot more humble...

So do you think all those who "come to Jesus" are saved, they never sin after that?? make sure of it...if you are soo good it does not mean all others are...

If someone came to Jesus with clean heart and being "saved" as you say, means God promised him, it's over he is saved and have new life...after that he made sins and may be go away from Jesus also, than he wont be saved anymore? will Jesus break his promise than? does God break promises?( May God forgive me for saying that)..

Am giving an example:
A high school, the first day of the year, the Director come infront of all new students and say " At the end of this year if you have love for me inside your hearts, come and you will get your degree, i promise you will be graduated from school"

All of them will love him for sure as he is very nice and generous, right? but how many of them will study for the exams? how many of them will attend classes???? 5%,...10%....50% ...

At the end of the year, those who studied and worked hard will be same as those who did not attend classes, all "because they love the Director" will be graduated. Is that fair???

Heaven not only by Love, but first Love of God than work, responsabilty and good deeds.

;)

Vhayes
Jun 7th 2008, 01:06 PM
Hi Share Truth -

Have you ever done anything wrong in your life? My guess is, yes, you have. Did your father or mother pack your bags and make you remove yourself from the house when you did something wrong? Did they tell you you were no longer a part of the family because you had been "bad" or made a mistake? I doubt it - they probably disciplined you, explained to you what you had done that caused them sorrow but my guess is they didn't tell you you had to change your name because you were no longer "worthy".

Romans 8
14 - For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

15 - For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 - The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

For those who have a relationship with Jesus Christ, we view heaven as our home. We are sojourners or visitors here on planet earth and will one day be able to go home to be with the rest of our family; not because of our own merits and worthiness but because Jesus loved us enough to pay for our transgressions and wrong doing.

Hope that helps a bit -
V

watchinginawe
Jun 7th 2008, 02:11 PM
You know for certain you are going to heaven??where is modesty infront of God saying that?
...
I wish and hope to go to heaven being optimist and asking for God mercy and forgivness, but i never can say it...or be sure of it.We are human...Jesus being prophet and better than all of us was alot more humble...

So do you think all those who "come to Jesus" are saved, they never sin after that?? make sure of it...if you are soo good it does not mean all others are...Share_Truth, you have a mis-guided understanding of Christianity.

Of course man "wishes and hopes to go to heaven". One doesn't need to be a Christian for that, just a man. This is about what all men figure anyway. That is why on New Year's Eve we make grand resolutions to "do better" with all the best intentions. When man mixes in thoughts of God with that, man starts to believe they can "make up" for the bad they have done in life and seek to tip the scales of justice in their favor. Sometimes we can convince ourselves that our deeds are so good that we even look towards the judgment of God optimistically. :cry:

Earlier you said this:
Things I did wrong in the past I am asking forgivness from Our Lord, and I am trying to make up for it by doing good things...all human do wrong things (big or small things) human are not perfect...God understand that because He created human being and as He is Merciful He can forgive to whom he want to and the time He want to.That is an audacious and prideful attitude to carry before God. The Christian understands that we don't petition God optimistally for mercy based on doing good things and relying on God's understanding of our merits. Where is your modesty? You seem to place your optimism in "doing good things". I hope you make out OK with that.

The Christian understands that there is no optimism in our good works at God's judgment. They will not impress God. This is what Jesus Christ the Son of God was saying when the rich young ruler was calling Him "good". We are not made "good" or "more good than not" to God by good works.

You (Share_Truth) are approaching Jesus in exactly the same manner as the rich young ruler did. You address Jesus Christ as Prophet. You address Jesus Christ as a mere man, and Jesus answers "why do you call me good then?". "Why do you declare peace upon My Name?".

The Christian approaches Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. The Christian says there is no good thing we can do to inherit heaven and that it can only be by God's grace alone. We declare our faith and trust in that Jesus was who He said He was, and able to do what He said He could do. The Christian approaches Jesus and can call Him good because they address Him correctly as Christ.

The Christian does not place confidence or optimism in their own works, before or after coming to Jesus. Instead, the Christian places confidence and optimism in the work of Jesus Christ alone.

God Bless!

Share_Truth
Jun 7th 2008, 05:30 PM
Share_Truth, you have a mis-guided understanding of Christianity.

Of course man "wishes and hopes to go to heaven". One doesn't need to be a Christian for that, just a man. This is about what all men figure anyway. That is why on New Year's Eve we make grand resolutions to "do better" with all the best intentions. When man mixes in thoughts of God with that, man starts to believe they can "make up" for the bad they have done in life and seek to tip the scales of justice in their favor. Sometimes we can convince ourselves that our deeds are so good that we even look towards the judgment of God optimistically. :cry:

Earlier you said this:That is an audacious and prideful attitude to carry before God. The Christian understands that we don't petition God optimistally for mercy based on doing good things and relying on God's understanding of our merits. Where is your modesty? You seem to place your optimism in "doing good things". I hope you make out OK with that.

The Christian understands that there is no optimism in our good works at God's judgment. They will not impress God. This is what Jesus Christ the Son of God was saying when the rich young ruler was calling Him "good". We are not made "good" or "more good than not" to God by good works.

You (Share_Truth) are approaching Jesus in exactly the same manner as the rich young ruler did. You address Jesus Christ as Prophet. You address Jesus Christ as a mere man, and Jesus answers "why do you call me good then?". "Why do you declare peace upon My Name?".

The Christian approaches Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. The Christian says there is no good thing we can do to inherit heaven and that it can only be by God's grace alone. We declare our faith and trust in that Jesus was who He said He was, and able to do what He said He could do. The Christian approaches Jesus and can call Him good because they address Him correctly as Christ.

The Christian does not place confidence or optimism in their own works, before or after coming to Jesus. Instead, the Christian places confidence and optimism in the work of Jesus Christ alone.

God Bless!


Yes Brother, so we are not very different in ideas, only was answering sister Saved7 who said she is certain she is going to heaven...we have to be humble and think what ever we do we don't go there by merit we go by God Mercy and Generosity....this does not mean we won't be asked by Him at the last day about our deeds, all is written down and to Him only to decide where we will be.

Being Christian or not, the Creator of the earths and heavens is same, you as christian you make Jesus as partener to Him , me I see He is One and Jesus PBUH is his prophet. At the last day it will be only one truth out of both we are thinking, and we live only once, so it will be very important for us to make sure of what we are believing in and look for truth and try to discover it and make sure of it...

God bless you all:)

calidog
Jun 7th 2008, 08:07 PM
thank you. If anyone is ever a fair judge it would be God.

ImmenseDisciple
Jun 7th 2008, 10:21 PM
Hey ST, I'm afraid I haven't really been following this thread, but I just popped in and this caught my eye;


Being Christian or not, the Creator of the earths and heavens is same, you as christian you make Jesus as partener to Him , me I see He is One and Jesus PBUH is his prophet. At the last day it will be only one truth out of both we are thinking, and we live only once, so it will be very important for us to make sure of what we are believing in and look for truth and try to discover it and make sure of it...

God bless you all:)

I, like Saved7, am certain of my salvation. I do not wait for my last day with hopes that I will find my intellectual understanding of God is correct - I have a personal relationship with Him today, through Christ.

I could hardly be less worthy - I persecuted Christians for around a decade, and even in my short time having come to know Christ, I fall so far short of what He would have me be I can barely stand it... But in His infinite grace, the Father brought me to Christ, through His Spirit, that I might be clean in His eyes and able to come before Him, every second of every day. Even as I stumble (all too willingly) into my old, ugly habits, I still am judged as perfect.

I'm always really pleased when I can find common ground with people of other religions - but if you don't know Christ, we don't have enough in common :)

ImmenseDisciple
Jun 7th 2008, 10:41 PM
Am giving an example:
A high school, the first day of the year, the Director come infront of all new students and say " At the end of this year if you have love for me inside your hearts, come and you will get your degree, i promise you will be graduated from school"

All of them will love him for sure as he is very nice and generous, right? but how many of them will study for the exams? how many of them will attend classes???? 5%,...10%....50% ...

At the end of the year, those who studied and worked hard will be same as those who did not attend classes, all "because they love the Director" will be graduated. Is that fair???That's an interesting example - but it shows a misunderstanding.

Let's imagine that the exam is an entrance exam, to get into a prestigious university. So prestigious, in fact, that you need to get 100% to get in. What's more, it's literally impossible for anyone to get 100%.

The Director understands that no one will be able to meet the standard, and He desperately wants them to get into His brilliant university - so He deals with the problem. He sends His Son to the entrance exam, knowing that He's the only person who would ever be able to get that perfect score. So, His Son passes the exam, and goes on to become the Co-Director, along with His Father. So now, when students come to Him and say they've realised they can't get the perfect score, He points them to His Son. They still won't be able to get that perfect score - but when His Father asks how they've done, the Son just shows His own perfect exam and says "they're with me."

Now, here's the crucial point - once you get into the university, having taken that perfect score as if it was your own - it's not the same for everyone. The people who worked really hard studying, the people who had to put up with all sorts of problems while they were taking the course - they all get extra benefits. The university is great for everyone who goes there, but it is not the same for them all - some will get more than others.

ImmenseDisciple
Jun 7th 2008, 11:05 PM
My sins I did them, and I have to pay for them unless God forgive me.God is Fair and Merciful.
Sorry to be going through your older posts, but as I said before, I only just noticed the thread :lol:

Anyway - I'd like you to imagine a courtroom, and the judge is perfect. His own child, stands in the dock, guilty.

In his position as judge, what option does he have? You might suggest that he could show leniency to his child, and let him leave with less punishment than he deserves. If he did this, though, he would not be the perfect judge. His actions would be unjust. To let his love overule his judgement would leave him less than perfect.

On the other hand, he could show no leniency, and dole out the correct punishment for his child. It would hurt him to do so - but even in the act of perfect judgement, he is still able to love. His love, though, would only be perfect if it was absolutely impossible for him to have done anything to help his son.

So, then, what is he to do? He has no choice but to dole out the punishment his child deserves. Let's say, for the sake of this example, that the perfect punishment is a fine of $10,000. As a judge, he has no choice but to demand the child make the payment. But before the trial, he is able to hand him the $10,000. Whether the child accepts his father's help or not, in offering to pay the penalty himself, he is acting in perfect love and perfect judgment.

Can you see that if the child had refused to accept the offer of help before he went to trial, and simply pleaded for mercy as he stood in the dock, the judge would have no choice but to impose the fine?

Share_Truth
Jun 10th 2008, 12:57 PM
That's an interesting example - but it shows a misunderstanding.

Let's imagine that the exam is an entrance exam, to get into a prestigious university. So prestigious, in fact, that you need to get 100% to get in. What's more, it's literally impossible for anyone to get 100%.

The Director understands that no one will be able to meet the standard, and He desperately wants them to get into His brilliant university - so He deals with the problem. He sends His Son to the entrance exam, knowing that He's the only person who would ever be able to get that perfect score. So, His Son passes the exam, and goes on to become the Co-Director, along with His Father. So now, when students come to Him and say they've realised they can't get the perfect score, He points them to His Son. They still won't be able to get that perfect score - but when His Father asks how they've done, the Son just shows His own perfect exam and says "they're with me."

Now, here's the crucial point - once you get into the university, having taken that perfect score as if it was your own - it's not the same for everyone. The people who worked really hard studying, the people who had to put up with all sorts of problems while they were taking the course - they all get extra benefits. The university is great for everyone who goes there, but it is not the same for them all - some will get more than others.

"they're with me."??? Does this son cheat his father??? Father did not know the truth???

Does Jesus hide truth from God, God does not know the truth then??

God is All knowing...no one to pay for others, and God does not ask us to be "perfect" He ask us to follow His law and ask forgivness whenever we have weak moments and sin, He created us so He is the best who know that we can be weak...never perfect except His messengers and prophets PBU them all.

Your example shows something very important also : it's father who decide not son, son is not Director, son is not God then!!

Think again about that example you gave my brother, it's not fair nor honest to do that.And for God the most perfect example..May God forgive us.

ChristopherE
Jun 10th 2008, 03:49 PM
Am giving an example:
A high school, the first day of the year, the Director come infront of all new students and say " At the end of this year if you have love for me inside your hearts, come and you will get your degree, i promise you will be graduated from school"

All of them will love him for sure as he is very nice and generous, right? but how many of them will study for the exams? how many of them will attend classes???? 5%,...10%....50% ...

At the end of the year, those who studied and worked hard will be same as those who did not attend classes, all "because they love the Director" will be graduated. Is that fair???

Heaven not only by Love, but first Love of God than work, responsabilty and good deeds.

;)

You can't apply our own measure of fairness to God. Maybe read all of Matthew 20, but I posted just enough to get the idea.

Mat 20:1-2 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [that is] an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
...
Mat 20:8-15 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them [their] hire, beginning from the last unto the first. And when they came that [were hired] about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. And when they had received [it], they murmured against the goodman of the house, Saying, These last have wrought [but] one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? Take [that] thine [is], and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

If you want to use your example it needs some modification. The qualification to loving the director would be him saying, "You will show your love of me by studying." Now at the end of the year, did those students that didn't study really love him? They can say they love him all they want but they did not love him with their actions. Continuing on, every student that studied, some may have got higher scores than others, some maybe even failed a few exams, but they studied because they loved the director for his offer to graduate them for their love. He keeps his word and passes every child that studied because they loved him, whether they failed some tests/classes or not. Meanwhile, their studying for love helped them be the best students they could be during the year.

ChristopherE
Jun 10th 2008, 04:02 PM
Your example shows something very important also : it's father who decide not son, son is not Director, son is not God then!!


I don't know what your stance is on that statement - if you were saying that's wrong or right - but I think scripture can clarify it.

Jhn 5:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=5&verse=22&version=kjv#22) For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Rom 2:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=2&verse=16&version=kjv#16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 14:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=14&verse=10&version=kjv#10) ... for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2Ti 4:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Ti&chapter=4&verse=1&version=kjv#1) I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

ImmenseDisciple
Jun 10th 2008, 06:05 PM
"they're with me"That was, of course, a gross simplification - the point of my post was to state, using your analogy, that heaven isn't the same for everyone. I should have just come out and said as much :)


God is All knowing...no one to pay for others, and God does not ask us to be "perfect" He ask us to follow His law and ask forgivness whenever we have weak moments and sin, He created us so He is the best who know that we can be weak...never perfect except His messengers and prophets PBU them all.I had no idea that you considered all your prophets as without sin, although I suppose it makes sense that you do. Our prophets are sinners, every one of them.

Anyway - here's the thing - though we aren't perfect, God is. You didn't respond to my other post - God is perfect, and we are under His dominion, and His judgement. He can't gloss over our sins, no matter how many good deeds we may have done - if He is perfectly good (which, of course, He is) then evil must be punished. How can He overlook it? How can He "turn a blind eye" to it? A million good deeds does not deal with the punishment for one single, solitary sin.


Your example shows something very important also : it's father who decide not son, son is not Director, son is not God then!!You're taking my analogy very literally. I'm not really suggesting we should be revising and packing our pencil cases for the "exam" either :)

I do not know what your beliefs are - but it seems clear enough to me that God definitively must be beyond our understanding. If we could encapsulate everything that God is, within our tiny little minds, He would not be God.

One aspect of God's nature which we can never completely understand is the trinity. We are limited, natural beings - an infinite, supernatural being is always going to be tricky to get our head around.

Perhaps the simplest way to understand how a single God can be 3 distinct and seperate entities, is to think in terms of "forms". Imagine water, ice, and steam. They are fundamentally the same, and yet they take up the completely different states, functions and natures of solid, liquid and gas.

Where this analogy falls apart, though, is that each of God's forms are God, in His entirity. For the analogy to hold true, the "ice" would have to be every molecule of H20 on the planet, and the "gas" and the "steam" similarly, every single molecule. And yet, the three would have to exist together.

When we're thinking in terms of a physical, limited subject, it is, of course, impossible for it to exist in 3 seperate and distinct states, and yet for each of them to be the totality of the subject in question. God, however, isn't limited.

Let's imagine for a second that I decide to cut my foot off. And, while I'm at it, I cut my arm off. I'm just in that kind of mood. So now I'm in 3 parts - one of them rather small, the foot; one of them a reasonable size, the arm; and one considerably larger than the other two, the rest.

Now, let's imagine I'm infinite. Again, I seperate my foot and my arm. So, once again, I'm in 3 parts. The difference is that any portion of infinity is, in fact, infinity. 0.000001% of infinity is infinity. So the foot, the arm, and the rest are now each of equal, infinite size. They are complete, because the infinite cannot be made incomplete.

And so, we can just about stretch our heads around 3 seperate beings each being the same infinite God. Christ is the infinite God, complete in every way. The Holy Spirit is the infinite God, complete in every way. And the Father too is the infinite God, complete in every way.

It's only fair to point out that the trinity made no sense to me whatsoever, until I was filled with the Holy Spirit. When God is alive in you, as you'd imagine, a few things start to become clearer :)

Saved7
Jun 11th 2008, 02:43 AM
You know for certain you are going to heaven??where is modesty infront of God saying that?

;)

Dear lady....We are told in the bible that we as believers in Christ can now "come boldly before the throne"...why? Because not only are we forgiven, but all of Jesus' good works are now credited toward us. WE are still humble, but we are confident; because we know and are sure that Christ has declared us righteous and will declare us righteous. The bible says that all of OUR righteousness is as filthy rags...but only God is righteous. And God has given us HIS righteousness, so that we can get into heaven...because that is where He wants us.
This is why Jesus said, Jhn 19:30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=19&verse=30&version=kjv#30)When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

He said elswhere, that He has not come to ABOLISH the law, but He came to FULFILL it; why? Because no one...ever...nowhere, not even the prophets were able to fulfill the law. If they were able to, then He would not have said that He came to fulfill the law. If man were able to fulfill it, he would not have had to come and do it Himself. But man is not able to, as no one but God can be perfect. And Jesus himself said if you want to be perfect, forsake all that you have and follow me.
He also said to the Father at one point...Jhn 17:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&verse=4&version=kjv#4)I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

This same work, involved fulfilling the law, now all who believe on Him as Saviour, God gives this same credit to as though you yourself have done it. And my friend, that is a very humbling thing, to accept such great credit that you know you do not deserve; but you accept it nonetheless. And in so doing, you are saved from hell.:pp

DIZZY
Jun 15th 2008, 10:00 AM
Hello,
I am confused when i hear christians talking about "Holy Trinity" and telling that Jesus is God and sometimes in the Holy Bible they say Jesus is man...


Thank you:pp

NB: I signed up in this forum to clear confusions i have about christianity.

Hi Share _Truth

I remember as a young Christian being in my kitchen talking to my mother and all of a sudden it hit me who Jesus Christ really was.
Yes Jesus was a man - human but He was also God. Jesus was fully man, born of a woman. He felt all things just like us, but He came to save the world. How could this man save the world, this man was special because not only was He man, He was God in the flesh.

God knew how wicked the world was and that the sacrifice of animals would not save us from our sins, so God decided to visit us in the flesh.

Matthew 1:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=1&verse=21&version=50&context=verse)
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Only God could save the world from sin, and because Jesus Christ was man but not only man, He was a man without sin, He was the spotless Lamb that needed to be provide to die for our sin. Jesus was without sin, how could that be when all of man has sinned. Not this man because He was God and where God resides sin can not reside.

Jesus spent 100 0/0 of His time with God and doing the Fathers will, and on the cross was a spotless Lamb (God). While on the cross God left the man Jesus to die for our sin alone, God left Jesus because our sin was being poured out upon Jesus. Alone in the darkness Jesus did for us He had done what the Father wanted, He had suffered and died (seperated) from God.

The seperation that Jesus suffered, the death that Jesus suffered was meant for us, it was our punishment for our disobedience towards a loving Father. Yet Jesus was willing to suffer and die for us, so that all those who believe in Him and all that He has done will have eternal life with Him and our loving Father in heaven.

Today I was thinking about Jesus being sinless and the only way one can do that is to be in full contact with God. Jesus is God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I look at an egg, you have three parts to an egg. The shell holds everything together (God). The yoke brings forth life (Jesus). The white is pure (Holy Spirit). With the egg unless you open it you can't experience the fullness of it, just like the Trinity unless you except Christ as God you can't experience the fulness of the Holy Spirit who is God.

I hope this helps you.