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Roelof
Jun 3rd 2008, 08:47 AM
The Trinity is One God:

Hear, O, Israel. Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. (Deu 6:4, NKJV)

Is there not one Father to us all? Has not one God created us? …. (Mal 2:10)

“The Word of the Lord” in the Old Testament refers to “The Son of God.”

By the Word of Jehovah were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. (Psa 33:6)

There are many references to the Trinity: the Father, Son [Jesus or Yeshua] and the Spirit of God in the Hebrew or English Old Testaments. There are 104 texts with “The Spirit of God” in the Old Testament.

And the earth was without form and empty. And darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters. (Gen 1:2)

And Pharaoh said to his servants, Can we find any man like this, in whom the Spirit of God is? (Gen 41:38)

And they came there to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him. And the Spirit of God came on him, and he prophesied among them. (1Sa 10:10)

“Messiah” in the Old Testament also refers to Jesus Christ:

Know therefore and understand, that from the going out of the command to restore and to build Jerusalem, to Messiah the Prince, ….. (Dan 9:25)

Elohim is the plural name for God in Hebrew, Jehovah is the singular.

Gen. 1.1 in Hebrew:

“In the beginning” “Elohim” “created” “the heavens and the earth.”
(plural for God) (singular verb)


The Greek writer Lucian, in his book Philopatris, written in 160 AD, wrote:

“The exalted God … Son of the Father, Spirit proceeding from the Father, One of Three, and Three of One.”

Naphal
Jun 3rd 2008, 10:37 AM
Jesus is also found here as well as the Father:

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the
clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

and here:

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Here we have "the Lord the King of Israel" AND someone else! And "his redeemer" "the Lord of Hosts".

seamus414
Jun 3rd 2008, 12:19 PM
I think of Genesis 18 where the three men appear to Abraham and he (Abraham) refers to them with one word: Lord.

I also think of the man who wrestled with Jacob. One would die if they saw God's face however Jacob, as he relates when he names the place where he wrestled, saw God's face and lived. I realize that this is not a definitive teaching, but I, personally, believe Jacob wrestled with Jesus who is both God and man.

Psalm 110:1: My Lord said to my lord...

God is always described as "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" - a type of the Trinity.

MidnightsPaleGlow
Jun 3rd 2008, 12:43 PM
If you think about it, humans are Triune as well just like God is, we all have a Body, Soul, and Spirit. Since we were created in the image of God, and God is Triune, why would he not make us Triune as well?

Roelof
Jun 3rd 2008, 01:02 PM
I think of Genesis 18 where the three men appear to Abraham and he (Abraham) refers to them with one word: Lord.

I also think of the man who wrestled with Jacob. One would die if they saw God's face however Jacob, as he relates when he names the place where he wrestled, saw God's face and lived. I realize that this is not a definitive teaching, but I, personally, believe Jacob wrestled with Jesus who is both God and man.

Psalm 110:1: My Lord said to my lord...

God is always described as "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" - a type of the Trinity.

Beautiful texts as well.

ARCHER42
Jun 3rd 2008, 05:44 PM
Go all the way back to the 1st chapter of Genesis..
Probably one of the first references to the Trinity...

verse 26......

And God said... Let 'US' make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowls of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


Notice the reference to the Word 'us'....

One God... three different Personalities... but not separate or unseperable.... not three different separate 'gods'...

MidnightsPaleGlow
Jun 3rd 2008, 07:11 PM
One God... three different Personalities... but not separate or unseperable.... not three different separate 'gods'...

That's what Oneness Pentecostals and Mormons don't understand, how complicated can it truly be? One God in Three Persons, TRI=3, UNITY=Together as One. TRI+UNITY=TRINITY.

ARCHER42
Jun 3rd 2008, 07:40 PM
That's what Oneness Pentecostals and Mormons don't understand, how complicated can it truly be? One God in Three Persons, TRI=3, UNITY=Together as One. TRI+UNITY=TRINITY.

Agreed... well stated... its so neat to see in the that Scripture... God spoke and He said 'let US".... now thats a Personable God, Saviour and LORD....:pp Oh how Precious that is....

ARCHER42
Jun 3rd 2008, 07:47 PM
I believe some are misunderstood and led to believe that when Jesus 'left Heaven' and Became God in the flesh... He became a separate God.... totally separate from the Father and Holy Ghost... but even though He was here and tabernacled in the flesh.. He was still God and not separate from the Father or the Holy Ghost...

The fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Him bodily...

Jesus was always in Heaven and before time He existed , He was never created or made up.... at the right time He stepped out of Heaven and Eternity and into time... to become God in the Flesh.. not separate from the Trinity.. He then returned Home, back into Heaven and Eternity, and is Seated at the Right Hand of the Father..... SOON

He WILL come again to Judge the Quick and the Dead.

davidandme
Jun 4th 2008, 12:32 AM
In the Hebrew mind "one", does not necesarily means, only one. One, also means unity.

ARCHER42
Jun 4th 2008, 01:10 AM
In the Hebrew mind "one", does not necesarily means, only one. One, also means unity.
-------------------------------------------------------

One means unity.. which equates to Jesus stating..

I and My Father are One...

He also went on to declare the He was in the Father and the Father was In Him.....


UNITY... not separate But ONE>> in UNITY..

fewarechosen
Jun 4th 2008, 01:50 AM
i just have a big issue with the teaching of "trinity" its such a man made word.

the only thing you hear in scripture is


6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

so then man makes a label of trinity which then leeds many astray they make seperate personalities for them which couldnt be further from the truth.

these three are one --its very clear to state that so any division is man made doctrine , there can be no different personalites when all are one. its like your mind, arm and blood are all one, its you

and notice it goes from these three are one
to these three agree in one, but many twist that all up

and i disagree archer that they have different personalities, one personality --IAM

Naphal
Jun 4th 2008, 01:53 AM
Do you believe Jesus was also the Father? That both are one being?



i just have a big issue with the teaching of "trinity" its such a man made word.

the only thing you hear in scripture is


6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

so then man makes a label of trinity which then leeds many astray they make seperate personalities for them which couldnt be further from the truth.

these three are one --its very clear to state that so any division is man made doctrine , there can be no different personalites when all are one. its like your mind, arm and blood are all one, its you

and notice it goes from these three are one
to these three agree in one, but many twist that all up

fewarechosen
Jun 4th 2008, 01:56 AM
the only thing i disagree with in that naphal is you using the term both.

and yes they are one :)

Naphal
Jun 4th 2008, 02:00 AM
Well this means you believe in Oneness, which is a heresy. I hope you reconsider your view on the Trinity.






the only thing i disagree with in that naphal is you using the term both.

and yes they are one :)

fewarechosen
Jun 4th 2008, 02:03 AM
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one

not heresy at all --scripture right here

these three are one.

are your mind body and blood not all one ? you dont say the three of us -- you can talk about your blood or your body or your mind but your always talking about you

so you cant say both , how can you use both when it clearly says one.


--- and i dont know this whole oneness thing that sounds like calvanism and armininism and osas and nosas to me.

Naphal
Jun 4th 2008, 02:10 AM
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one

not heresy at all --scripture right here

these three are one.

so you cant say both , how can you use both when it clearly says one.


Because I have studied the Greek there in depth and know that it means one in Spirit or purpose not one in person or body. The 3 of God are "one" in the same way millions of Christians are "one" in Spirit and purpose.

You esteem Bullinger don't you? Listen to his explanation:

"One. Gr. "hen" Neut., one in essence, not one person which would be "heis", masc. This is the climax of His claim to oneness with The Father in vv. 18, 25, 28, 29. Compare also V. 38; 14:11 Rev 22:3"

According to Bullinger, an accomplished Greek scholar, the word for "one" is "hen" the Neut. form of the word "heis". "heis" means "one" of person but "hen" means "one" in essence.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one [in essence].

or

John 10:30 I and my Father are [spiritually] one.

This is what Christ said.

Matthew Henry also confirms this:

http://www.ccel.org/h/henry/mhc2/MHC43010.HTM

Further to corroborate the security, that the sheep of Christ may have strong consolation, he asserts the union of these two undertakers: "I and my Father are one, and have jointly and severally undertaken for the protection of the saints and their perfection." This denotes more than the harmony, and consent, and good understanding, that were between the Father and the Son in the work of man's redemption. Every good man is so far one with God as to concur with him; therefore it must be meant of the oneness of the nature of Father and Son, that they are the same in substance, and equal in power and glory. The fathers urged this both against the Sabellians, to prove the distinction and plurality of the persons, that the Father and the Son are two, and against the Arians, to prove the unity of the nature, that these two are one. If we should altogether hold our peace concerning this sense of the words, even the stones which the Jews took up to cast at him would speak it out, for the Jews understood him as hereby making himself God (v. 33) and he did not deny it. He proves that none could pluck them out of his hand because they could not pluck them out of the Father's hand, which had not been a conclusive argument if the Son had not had the same almighty power with the Father, and consequently been one with him in essence and operation.

"the union of these two undertakers"

"therefore it must be meant of the oneness of the nature of Father and Son"

"to prove the distinction and plurality of the persons, that the Father and the Son are two"

"one with him in essence and operation"

Matthew Henry also knew that the greek for "one" was meaning one in essence, not in person as Bullinger also confirmed.

http://www.ccel.org/h/henry/mhc2/MHC01001.HTM

(2.) The author and cause of this great work--GOD. The Hebrew word is Elohim, which bespeaks, [1.] The power of God the Creator. El signifies the strong God; and what less than almighty strength could bring all things out of nothing? [2.] The plurality of persons in the Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This plural name of God, in Hebrew, which speaks of him as many though he is one, was to the Gentiles perhaps a savour of death unto death, hardening them in their idolatry; but it is to us a savour of life unto life, confirming our faith in the doctrine of the Trinity, which, though but darkly intimated in the Old Testament, is clearly revealed in the New. The Son of God, the eternal Word and Wisdom of the Father, was with him when he made the world (Prov. viii. 30), nay, we are often told that the world was made by him, and nothing made without him, John i. 3, 10; Eph. iii. 9; Col. i. 16; Heb. 1. 2. O what high thoughts should this form in our minds of that great God whom we draw nigh to in religious worship, and that great Mediator in whose name we draw nigh!

"GOD. The Hebrew word is Elohim"

"The plurality of persons in the Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost."

"This plural name of God, in Hebrew, which speaks of him as many though he is one"

fewarechosen
Jun 4th 2008, 02:15 AM
actually i havent read any man made doctrines on christianity at all -- never heard of bollinger , or calvanism or any of that garbage till i came here.

many people read many books by other so called christians then fall into agreeing with them because they dont have to think for themselves, they hear something that makes sense in thier mind and go with it not relying on the holy spirit.

so you can say im wrong but dont attribute it to someone elses teaching i have read none of that its garbage

John 10:30 I and my Father are one [in essence].

or

John 10:30 I and my Father are [spiritually] one

notice the added terms in essence and spiritually , be carefull with such things
and yes i understand you are gettign them from the greek

Naphal
Jun 4th 2008, 02:29 AM
many people read many books by other so called christians then fall into agreeing with them because they dont have to think for themselves, they hear something that makes sense in thier mind and go with it not relying on the holy spirit.

Rely on the HS but that does not mean we should read the works of learned Greek scholars. The issue here is understanding the difference between Hen and Heis and what they mean. Your belief in God being literally one is not supported in the bible nor that verse because it doesn't use the Greek form of the word that means one person.




so you can say im wrong but dont attribute it to someone elses teaching i have read none of that its garbage

Please stop referring to the work of these good men as "garbage".




John 10:30 I and my Father are one [in essence].

or

John 10:30 I and my Father are [spiritually] one

notice the added terms in essence and spiritually , be carefull with such things
and yes i understand you are gettign them from the greek



Those are my words and I put them there to show the true meaning of the word in the Greek so you could see it in proper context.

Jesus did not say "My Father and I are the same person"
He said "My Father and I are spiritually one" but not one person.

fewarechosen
Jun 4th 2008, 02:40 AM
i just still totally disagree with the implications of what your saying.

i believe the holy spirit gives one understanding, but obviously i agree the words are important and understanding the words.

yet its still dividing up god.

you dont say my arm my mind and my blood are in essence one. they are one its you

they are one -- different in how they are presented or talked about but all one.

the whole godhead term and all that are very decieving to many, instead of seeing it like mind body and blood, they see it like 3 seperate peas in one pod


and apologies for the garbage comment that was poor

just remember when reading from learned scholars - the devil himself is very learned yet leads many astray

Naphal
Jun 4th 2008, 02:48 AM
i just still totally disagree with the implications of what your saying.

i believe the holy spirit gives one understanding, but obviously i agree the words are important and understanding the words.

Then study the Greek word and it's form that was used by the Holy Spirit so you can understand what the HS said through Christ about what God is. I promise the Greek will reveal much truth, that the English just isn't able to.



yet its still dividing up god.

God is composed of three in one. It's not a negative thing. As you can see from this thread it is even shown in the OT.



you dont say my arm my mind and my blood are in essence one. they are one its you

"they are one" you use the plural to describe a single whole. That is the same with God. One God, the whole, composed of three parts.




they are one -- different in how they are presented or talked about but all one.

They are one but not in the way you believe them to be :)




the whole godhead term and all that are very decieving to many, instead of seeing it like mind body and blood, they see it like 3 seperate peas in one pod

It's only deceiving if one does not understand what the bible says about God, Godhead and the Trinity, etc. Three peas in a pod is more accurate than "mind body and blood" actually.

fewarechosen
Jun 4th 2008, 02:57 AM
They are one but not in the way you believe them to be :)


ahh but the joy of that situation is that we both get to die and have god show us.

ARCHER42
Jun 4th 2008, 02:59 AM
Jesus spoke of the Comforter, even the Spirit of Truth proceeding from the Father.....

He went on to testify about the Spirit of Truth or the Comforter as a 'He'.. He shall lead you into all truth, He shall testify of Me, He shall reprove the world of sin..

If they were 'one being'.. then Jesus would of never testified that He the Comforter or the Spirit of Truth would of proceeded from the Father..

"He' is the Holy Ghost, Spirit of Truth, The Comforter, Spirit of Grace etc...

Coequal with Father and the Son.. and He is God... He has a personality..

The Scripture talks about doing 'despite' unto the Spirit of Grace... this is found in Hebrews... thats 'insulting' Him... something that is 'insulted' has a Personality.. Just as you and I have personalities... When we are insulted we react in different ways..

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost..

all Eternal... which means they have always existed and have no beginning or end.. They existed even before 'time' began..

All Co Equal.... in Three Different personalities...

not three 'different' 'gods'....

The miracle is the 2nd Person of the Godhead took a journey to this Earth and put on Flesh... and Died a physcial death on the tree so that men women and children could inherit Eternal Life...

Naphal
Jun 4th 2008, 03:06 AM
They are one but not in the way you believe them to be :)


ahh but the joy of that situation is that we both get to die and have god show us.

:) yes this is true. BTW, do you know how to use the "quote" thing? It makes it much easier to see what you are talking about and to whom. Highlight the text to quote and then click the button up above the text are that looks like a quote it's next to a number sign.

Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 03:07 AM
I'll be honest, the Trinity and Oneness is something I have struggled with also.

Christ says that no one knows the hour He comes, except for His Father.

I think I believe the Triune, but I couldn't defend it, let alone spell it. :)

Yuke

Vhayes
Jun 4th 2008, 03:38 AM
I think of Genesis 18 where the three men appear to Abraham and he (Abraham) refers to them with one word: Lord.

I also think of the man who wrestled with Jacob. One would die if they saw God's face however Jacob, as he relates when he names the place where he wrestled, saw God's face and lived. I realize that this is not a definitive teaching, but I, personally, believe Jacob wrestled with Jesus who is both God and man.

Psalm 110:1: My Lord said to my lord...

God is always described as "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" - a type of the Trinity.
YES!!!

There are a couple of things that just SHOUT the triune God to me:
Lord - Strong’s 03068 Hebrew
Jehovah – singular
"the existing One" – self-existent or eternal

God – Strong’s 430 Hebrew
Elohiym – Plural
gods in the ordinary sense BUT specifically used of the Supreme God.

Now, look at Deuteronomy 6:4
4 - "Hear, O Israel! The LORD (singular) is our God (plural), the LORD (singular) is one!

To me, this is proof of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, from eternity past to eternity future.

Also, how many refernces are there throughout the bible that say, "Holy, holy, holy..."

V