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Nihil Obstat
Jun 3rd 2008, 08:11 PM
Can intentionally committed sins be atoned for?

Reynolds357
Jun 3rd 2008, 08:36 PM
Can intentionally committed sins be atoned for?

Yes, intentional sins can be forgiven.

amazzin
Jun 3rd 2008, 08:37 PM
Can intentionally committed sins be atoned for?

The formula is easy. God's mercy is always greater than our sin. So the answer is yes.

God is a forgiving God. Jessu died for us so that our sins can be forgiven. However, the consequences of sin cannot be avioded. All sin is the same in the eyes of God but it is the consequences that are different. Tos we must endure

Buck shot
Jun 3rd 2008, 08:46 PM
God is a forgiving God. Jessu died for us so that our sins can be forgiven. However, the consequences of sin cannot be avioded. All sin is the same in the eyes of God but it is the consequences that are different. Tos we must endure

I like the way Amazzin put it, "consequences of sin cannot be avoided".

Count the cost of the sin that one would intentionally commit, not only to yourself, but to your family and your church! :cry:

As a good dad, we would set the punishment for breaking a house rule higher for a child if they intentionally broke it right? We would forgive them but there is always a cost.

Same as our court system. The cost of breaking a law increases rapidly when something is premeditated.

I think we can apply this simple things we do daily with others as examples of what God does with us.;)

Friend of I AM
Jun 3rd 2008, 08:50 PM
The formula is easy. God's mercy is always greater than our sin. So the answer is yes.

God is a forgiving God. Jessu died for us so that our sins can be forgiven. However, the consequences of sin cannot be avioded. All sin is the same in the eyes of God but it is the consequences that are different. Tos we must endure

We actually are in a sense avoiding the brunt of the consequence of sin through Christ's atonement sacrafice as all men essentially deserve death and hell. There is no real reason for us to be alive right now but for the grace of God found in Christ Jesus. No one is righteous save Christ, and all men fall short of being worthy of the recipient of his grace. That being said, there is indeed a disciplinary process that we go through in this life though(being that we are disciples of Christ) - as we come to the fullness of this grace and are conformed to the image of his son.

We at times struggle on this path as we grow closer to God, sometimes due to our own decisions, and sometimes due to things beyond our control. Despite it all, God is a savior of all men - and his grace is extended to all men as they are all sinners whom by only his grace, are able to receive the promise of eternal life and become saints.

VerticalReality
Jun 3rd 2008, 09:32 PM
The formula is easy. God's mercy is always greater than our sin. So the answer is yes.

God is a forgiving God. Jessu died for us so that our sins can be forgiven. However, the consequences of sin cannot be avioded. All sin is the same in the eyes of God but it is the consequences that are different. Tos we must endure

Just like David. The fact that David sinned did not change the reality that he belonged to God. However, David still had to accept the consequences of his sin.

theleast
Jun 3rd 2008, 09:37 PM
Scripture says all manner of sin can be forgiven except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

So based on that, assuming your intentional sin isn't blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, then it can be forgiven.

Yukerboy
Jun 3rd 2008, 10:34 PM
I tell my daughter there is a Santa Claus.

I am lying, make no mistake about it.

Not only that, but it is an intentional sin, and one I do not repent of, as my daughter still believes in Santa.

Now, if I die tomorrow, believing I am born again, was this intentional sin unforgiven. I didn't even repent of it.

This is one of the reasons why I make the case that Christians cannot sin.

Yuke

theleast
Jun 3rd 2008, 11:29 PM
I tell my daughter there is a Santa Claus.

I am lying, make no mistake about it.

Not only that, but it is an intentional sin, and one I do not repent of, as my daughter still believes in Santa.

Now, if I die tomorrow, believing I am born again, was this intentional sin unforgiven. I didn't even repent of it.

This is one of the reasons why I make the case that Christians cannot sin.

Yuke

Oh my goodness! I must respectfully disagree.

As it says in scripture....Romans 3:23....For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Nowhere in scripture have I found it to say christians can't sin.

Yukerboy
Jun 3rd 2008, 11:37 PM
I don't think anyone disputes that Christians have sinned. All have sinned. No one disagrees there.

However....

1 John 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Cannot here implies inability. The Christian is UNABLE to sin. Dare I say, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Christian to sin.

JordanW
Jun 3rd 2008, 11:38 PM
All sin can be forgiven. :)

Yukerboy
Jun 3rd 2008, 11:51 PM
All sin can be forgiven

And that was the crux of the question. This "Can a Christian sin" is a whole new subject and I do not want to see this thread hijacked.

Jordan, good post and except for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, I agree with you.

phaeton426, if we wish to discuss whether a Christian can sin or not and I'm sure many others are ready to jump me about that statement, then let us start a new thread that does not take away from the subject of this one (and I'm not saying that just because you are from Michigan and probably a Red Wing fan ;) ).

Yuke

davidandme
Jun 4th 2008, 12:24 AM
If a sin is not intentional then, then the person is not really guilty.

brakelite
Jun 4th 2008, 01:30 AM
The Christian has at his/her disposal the Bible, and numerous promises to the effect that God can 'cleanse us from all unrighteousness'. He has also given us His own Holy Spirit that through Him we may be sanctified and made holy. This being the case, if we do not take advantage of everything that God has provided that we may be partakers of the divine nature, then can any subsequent sin be classified as 'accidental'? Or with all the information available to us through His word, can we sin 'ignorantly'? Is there any sin that is not intentional?

Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 02:58 AM
Sin, unintentional or not, is sin.

When I told my daughter there is a Santa Claus, I didn't think it was really a sin.

Did I lie or not? And now that I know it is a "sin", it is now intentional and I have not repented. Is it forgiven?

If not, and I die tomorrow, no unforgiven sin can enter heaven and I have lost salvation.

Yuke

My heart's Desire
Jun 4th 2008, 05:03 AM
I tell my daughter there is a Santa Claus.

I am lying, make no mistake about it.

Not only that, but it is an intentional sin, and one I do not repent of, as my daughter still believes in Santa.

Now, if I die tomorrow, believing I am born again, was this intentional sin unforgiven. I didn't even repent of it.

This is one of the reasons why I make the case that Christians cannot sin.

Yuke
Ah, one of those loaded questions. ;) Repent means to change your mind and if you already knew it was a sin then how can you change your mind? If you did then you'd be denying that it was sin right?
Now, someone please tell us the meaning of forgive. The way I've heard it is that to forgive is to send the offending item (in this case, sin) away. As in as far as the east is from the west?
I just don't know how one can get around the fact that if Christ died for the sins of the world then what makes us think that as a believer He has not already forgiven the sins we haven't yet changed our mind about. If God sees us as being in Christ and He in us then how does He see the sin. Christ is sinless. His Blood not only covers our sin, but it took it away. I'm I not correct? There is a difference between our position and our experience.
(I know Peter! Loaded question.:eek:

Roelof
Jun 4th 2008, 08:41 AM
We know that everyone who has been born of God does not continue to sin, but the one born of God guards himself, and the evil one does not touch him. (1Jn 5:18)

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, (Heb 10:26)

John Wesley's Notes:

Heb 10:26 - For when we - Any of us Christians. Sin wilfully - By total apostasy from God, termed "drawing back," Heb_10:38. After having received the experimental knowledge of the gospel truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins - None but that which we obstinately reject.

seamus414
Jun 4th 2008, 03:21 PM
I tell my daughter there is a Santa Claus.

I am lying, make no mistake about it.

Not only that, but it is an intentional sin, and one I do not repent of, as my daughter still believes in Santa.

Now, if I die tomorrow, believing I am born again, was this intentional sin unforgiven. I didn't even repent of it.

This is one of the reasons why I make the case that Christians cannot sin.

Yuke


Telling your daughter that there is a Santa Claus is not "a lie" nor is it a sin that needs repentence.

moonglow
Jun 4th 2008, 03:23 PM
Sin, unintentional or not, is sin.

When I told my daughter there is a Santa Claus, I didn't think it was really a sin.

Did I lie or not? And now that I know it is a "sin", it is now intentional and I have not repented. Is it forgiven?

If not, and I die tomorrow, no unforgiven sin can enter heaven and I have lost salvation.

Yuke

You said you didn't want to derail this thread but then bring it up again...so why don't you go ahead and start a new post if you haven't already...;)

As to the question...I believe ALL sins can be forgiven...and yes there is such a thing as unintentional sins too. For instance I didn't know until several years after I was saved that ongoing anger towards those that hurt me or my son in the past was a sin.. I didn't know until the Holy Spirit pointed it out to me. I was sinning in ignorance. I really didn't know. So then I started working on forgiving and getting that anger out of my life. No one just goes 'poof' and knows it all and does everything right as soon as they become a Christian. It takes time for a Christian to learn and grow in the spirit..its an ongoing process. A person could live to be 500 and still be having the Holy Spirit pointing out things they need to work on in their life...:rolleyes: And we slip up...for whatever reason..temptation, being put in a situation where we have to think quick and don't pick the right thing to do...no matter how hard we try. And sometimes Christians back slide....seriously backslide...yet we know Jesus rejoices when those lost sheep are found! They are forgiven though they not only intentionally sinned, but walked away from God for awhile...

Luke 15
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
1 Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.” 3 So He spoke this parable to them, saying:
4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Notice the first part...Jesus letting tax collectors and sinners by Him...:hmm:

God bless

seamus414
Jun 4th 2008, 03:27 PM
Sin, unintentional or not, is sin.

When I told my daughter there is a Santa Claus, I didn't think it was really a sin.

Did I lie or not? And now that I know it is a "sin", it is now intentional and I have not repented. Is it forgiven?

If not, and I die tomorrow, no unforgiven sin can enter heaven and I have lost salvation.

Yuke

(see my other about your supposed "lie")

An unintentional sin is not a "sin" which needs repentence. Sin is seperation from God which is a state of one's soul and not necessarily an action. Action based sin is the law from which we are freed. We, as Christians, understand that an action is not a sin in and of itself, we understand that an action is a sin because of the intention to conduct oneself contrary to God's express will and intention.

For example, having sex with someone to whom you are not married is a sin. HOwever if you marry someone who is married to someone else (but you do not know this) and have sex with her you have not sinned as you did not have any intent to commit adultery/bigamy.

Another example: you are at a party and you take and wear someone's coat when you leave thinking it is yours. Objectively you committed the sin of stealing, however you never intended to steal, so there is no sin.

seamus414
Jun 4th 2008, 03:28 PM
What do you mean by "intentional" sin?

Essentially if someone intentionally sins that person can be forgiven if he confesses and repents of the sin.

theleast
Jun 4th 2008, 03:38 PM
The Christian has at his/her disposal the Bible, and numerous promises to the effect that God can 'cleanse us from all unrighteousness'. He has also given us His own Holy Spirit that through Him we may be sanctified and made holy. This being the case, if we do not take advantage of everything that God has provided that we may be partakers of the divine nature, then can any subsequent sin be classified as 'accidental'? Or with all the information available to us through His word, can we sin 'ignorantly'? Is there any sin that is not intentional?

I would completely agree with you. The baptized know when they are sinning. A disturbing trend that I am beginning to see in Christians is a searching of doctrine for a free pass on sin. Yes all our sins can be forgiven excepting the one. Jesus also tells us to follow him. Christ did not sin, so in order to follow him we also must repent and stop sinning. Do you not remember this parable?

Matthew 12:43-45

43"When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."

Do you not see that if you sweep your house clean and the wicked spirits leave you, that if they are invited back in your state will be worse that it was in the first place? Don't put down the plow because it becomes harder to pick it back up than if you never set it down to begin with.

ProjectPeter
Jun 4th 2008, 03:40 PM
I tell my daughter there is a Santa Claus.

I am lying, make no mistake about it.

Not only that, but it is an intentional sin, and one I do not repent of, as my daughter still believes in Santa.

Now, if I die tomorrow, believing I am born again, was this intentional sin unforgiven. I didn't even repent of it.

This is one of the reasons why I make the case that Christians cannot sin.

Yuke


I don't think anyone disputes that Christians have sinned. All have sinned. No one disagrees there.

However....

1 John 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Cannot here implies inability. The Christian is UNABLE to sin. Dare I say, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Christian to sin.


And that was the crux of the question. This "Can a Christian sin" is a whole new subject and I do not want to see this thread hijacked.

Jordan, good post and except for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, I agree with you.

phaeton426, if we wish to discuss whether a Christian can sin or not and I'm sure many others are ready to jump me about that statement, then let us start a new thread that does not take away from the subject of this one (and I'm not saying that just because you are from Michigan and probably a Red Wing fan ;) ).

Yuke


Sin, unintentional or not, is sin.

When I told my daughter there is a Santa Claus, I didn't think it was really a sin.

Did I lie or not? And now that I know it is a "sin", it is now intentional and I have not repented. Is it forgiven?

If not, and I die tomorrow, no unforgiven sin can enter heaven and I have lost salvation.

YukeOkay... so then you believe that nothing we do is counted as sin, intentional or not, because our sins have already been forgiven thus even if we do something that Scripture considers sin... it isn't sin any longer because Jesus died for it and we've already been forgiven for past, present, and future sins? That sum it up?

VerticalReality
Jun 4th 2008, 03:49 PM
Telling your daughter that there is a Santa Claus is not "a lie" nor is it a sin that needs repentence.

That's up for debate, and it has been debated quite extensively on this forum.

seamus414
Jun 4th 2008, 03:57 PM
I would completely agree with you. The baptized know when they are sinning. A disturbing trend that I am beginning to see in Christians is a searching of doctrine for a free pass on sin. Yes all our sins can be forgiven excepting the one. Jesus also tells us to follow him. Christ did not sin, so in order to follow him we also must repent and stop sinning. Do you not remember this parable?

Matthew 12:43-45

43"When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."

Do you not see that if you sweep your house clean and the wicked spirits leave you, that if they are invited back in your state will be worse that it was in the first place? Don't put down the plow because it becomes harder to pick it back up than if you never set it down to begin with.


2 things:

First - how do you respond to my other post about how a sin (objectively) can be unintentional (subjectively)

Second - I think a distinction can be made between a sin that is thought out and a sin that sort of just happens. For example, you walk into a room where gossiping is going on and you hear it and you chime in without thinking. Or you are in a hotel room and do not realize that you can get the skin channels and you flip through and flip through one and experience lust - again not necessarily intended but it happened. Another example may be that someone touches a nerve and makes you really angry suddenly and you say something not-so-appropriate. This was not intended and very heat-of-the-moment. Again, I think a distinction can be made.

seamus414
Jun 4th 2008, 03:58 PM
That's up for debate, and it has been debated quite extensively on this forum.


Do you think fibbing to someone to preserve a surprise party is also a "lie" that needs repentence?

My heart's Desire
Jun 4th 2008, 04:05 PM
Can intentionally committed sins be atoned for? Did Christ die to atone for ONLY the unintentional sins? And how do you mean be atoned for? Surely one cannot atone for one's own sins.
To me, to say that only repented of committed sins are atoned for, intentional or not is to say that Christ did not die for all but only for sins that have been repented of (quit doing, if one sees it that way)of each and every one of the sins they commit. If Christ died for only sins repented of then He did not die for all the sin of the world. Right?

theleast
Jun 4th 2008, 04:10 PM
2 things:

First - how do you respond to my other post about how a sin (objectively) can be unintentional (subjectively)

Second - I think a distinction can be made between a sin that is thought out and a sin that sort of just happens. For example, you walk into a room where gossiping is going on and you hear it and you chime in without thinking. Or you are in a hotel room and do not realize that you can get the skin channels and you flip through and flip through one and experience lust - again not necessarily intended but it happened. Another example may be that someone touches a nerve and makes you really angry suddenly and you say something not-so-appropriate. This was not intended and very heat-of-the-moment. Again, I think a distinction can be made.

1. I don't believe sin can be unintentional.

2. If your mind and spirit are straight you won't sin without thinking. Would Christ gossip or experience lust? Of course not because he was perfect, and we are to follow him.

seamus414
Jun 4th 2008, 04:20 PM
1. I don't believe sin can be unintentional.

2. If your mind and spirit are straight you won't sin without thinking. Would Christ gossip or experience lust? Of course not because he was perfect, and we are to follow him.

In response:

1 - Okay so in my example of the unintentional bigimist - did that man commit adultery?

2 - objectively speaking, you see no distinction between something that you without thinking and something you do as a result of intentional planning?

moonglow
Jun 4th 2008, 04:31 PM
1. I don't believe sin can be unintentional.

2. If your mind and spirit are straight you won't sin without thinking. Would Christ gossip or experience lust? Of course not because he was perfect, and we are to follow him.

I'm repeating myself here:

I believe ALL sins can be forgiven...and yes there is such a thing as unintentional sins too. For instance I didn't know until several years after I was saved that ongoing anger towards those that hurt me or my son in the past was a sin.. I didn't know until the Holy Spirit pointed it out to me. I was sinning in ignorance. I really didn't know. So then I started working on forgiving and getting that anger out of my life. No one just goes 'poof' and knows it all and does everything right as soon as they become a Christian. It takes time for a Christian to learn and grow in the spirit..its an ongoing process. A person could live to be 500 and still be having the Holy Spirit pointing out things they need to work on in their life...:rolleyes: And we slip up...for whatever reason..temptation, being put in a situation where we have to think quick and don't pick the right thing to do...no matter how hard we try. And sometimes Christians back slide....seriously backslide...yet we know Jesus rejoices when those lost sheep are found! They are forgiven though they not only intentionally sinned, but walked away from God for awhile...

Luke 15
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
1 Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.” 3 So He spoke this parable to them, saying:
4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Notice the first part...Jesus letting tax collectors and sinners by Him...:hmm:

There is nothing in the bible that says we just suddenly know when we are sinning and quit it...nor after being bapisted ...boy could I write a testimony on that one! :rolleyes::blush: And not a good one, but I DID intentional sin after I was bapisted...:( It wasn't until I became born again and truly filled with the Holy Spirit did the desire to sin go away...but on other things, such as my anger...I didn't just somehow magically know that was a sin...it wasn't until later I was convicted of it...then of course I worked on it...I was sinning unintentionally because I really didn't know better!

God Bless

theleast
Jun 4th 2008, 04:40 PM
In response:

1 - Okay so in my example of the unintentional bigimist - did that man commit adultery?

2 - objectively speaking, you see no distinction between something that you without thinking and something you do as a result of intentional planning?

1. I am no judge, God knows that mans heart.

2. I don't do things unintentionally.

Remember you stand naked before God. He knows your heart better than you do. Do not sin so that you can stand blameless in the day of judgement.

theleast
Jun 4th 2008, 04:44 PM
I'm repeating myself here:

I believe ALL sins can be forgiven...and yes there is such a thing as unintentional sins too. For instance I didn't know until several years after I was saved that ongoing anger towards those that hurt me or my son in the past was a sin.. I didn't know until the Holy Spirit pointed it out to me. I was sinning in ignorance. I really didn't know. So then I started working on forgiving and getting that anger out of my life. No one just goes 'poof' and knows it all and does everything right as soon as they become a Christian. It takes time for a Christian to learn and grow in the spirit..its an ongoing process. A person could live to be 500 and still be having the Holy Spirit pointing out things they need to work on in their life...:rolleyes: And we slip up...for whatever reason..temptation, being put in a situation where we have to think quick and don't pick the right thing to do...no matter how hard we try. And sometimes Christians back slide....seriously backslide...yet we know Jesus rejoices when those lost sheep are found! They are forgiven though they not only intentionally sinned, but walked away from God for awhile...

Luke 15
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
1 Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.” 3 So He spoke this parable to them, saying:
4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Notice the first part...Jesus letting tax collectors and sinners by Him...:hmm:

There is nothing in the bible that says we just suddenly know when we are sinning and quit it...nor after being bapisted ...boy could I write a testimony on that one! :rolleyes::blush: And not a good one, but I DID intentional sin after I was bapisted...:( It wasn't until I became born again and truly filled with the Holy Spirit did the desire to sin go away...but on other things, such as my anger...I didn't just somehow magically know that was a sin...it wasn't until later I was convicted of it...then of course I worked on it...I was sinning unintentionally because I really didn't know better!

God Bless

I am not saying intentional sin can not be forgiven. I am saying that in order to follow Christ we must repent and cease sinning. Christ asked us to be born again so that the Spirit would have a clean vessal in which to reside. But to give a free pass on sin and say we can do it and be forgiven, then why be born again? Why not just give the Spirit to all then? Once the Spirit resides within you and you sin knowingly, do you not think that angers God? Are you not then defiling a temple of God?

Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 04:47 PM
Okay... so then you believe that nothing we do is counted as sin, intentional or not, because our sins have already been forgiven thus even if we do something that Scripture considers sin... it isn't sin any longer because Jesus died for it and we've already been forgiven for past, present, and future sins? That sum it up?

Kinda sorta. I don't believe the saved can commit "future sins"


I believe ALL sins can be forgiven...and yes there is such a thing as unintentional sins too.

:OFFT:

You are talking of unintentional AND unknown. If I tell my daughter there is a Santa Claus who lives in the North Pole and gets on a sleigh with eight tiny reindeer and goes down chimneys to give children presents, I lied. And I KNOW I lied. Completely intentional.

Now, If I truly believe all this about Santa and tell my daughter this, then I lied to her, but not knowingly or intentionally. I thought I was telling her the truth. The question becomes, is that lie a sin?

Yuke

theleast
Jun 4th 2008, 04:51 PM
Kinda sorta. I don't believe the saved can commit "future sins"



:OFFT:

You are talking of unintentional AND unknown. If I tell my daughter there is a Santa Claus who lives in the North Pole and gets on a sleigh with eight tiny reindeer and goes down chimneys to give children presents, I lied. And I KNOW I lied. Completely intentional.

Now, If I truly believe all this about Santa and tell my daughter this, then I lied to her, but not knowingly or intentionally. I thought I was telling her the truth. The question becomes, is that lie a sin?

Yuke

Perhaps the sin isn't the lie, but the imparting of knowledge in which you are ignorrant.

Jesusinmyheart
Jun 4th 2008, 05:08 PM
If i may. i'd like to weigh in on this topic:


Yes, intentional sins can be forgiven.

If sin was indeed intentional, then that leads to the fact that it was known to the person that it was a sin.
Thus it is intentional, going against knowledge of truth

Let's see what scripture says about that:

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
Now, God also said to forgive your brother 70 times 7 so i would say it would stand to reason God will have mercy upon a sinner despite the knowledge of truth.

So, it really boils down to on whom God will have mercy

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

However, as i said before, i would not bank on God having mercy forever if i continue to go against my God given knowledge of truth:

Luk 12:43 Blessed is that slave whom his master will find at work when he arrives.
Luk 12:44 Truly I tell you, he will put that one in charge of all his possessions.
Luk 12:45 But if that slave says to himself, "My master is delayed in coming,' and if he begins to beat the other slaves, men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour that he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 That slave who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and from the one to whom much has been entrusted, even more will be demanded.


Now another poster said:


Sin, unintentional or not, is sin.Very true, as above scripture verse shows that whether you knew or not, there's still punishment.

Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and from the one to whom much has been entrusted, even more will be demanded.

These are some very sober passages speaking of and attesting to the wrath of God to come. Yes, his mercy endures, but there will also be plenty of wrath.....

I am amazed at those who would teach grace in abundance without any consequences whatsoever:

Heb 6:1 Therefore let us go on toward perfection, leaving behind the basic teaching about Christ, and not laying again the foundation: repentance from dead works and faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 instruction about baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And we will do [36] this, if God permits.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt.

EDITED TO ADD:
There's hope though if you sincerely desire to please God:

Pro 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

It all boils down to repentance, (Teshuvah) : turning from wrong to right.


Shalom,
Tanja

Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 05:15 PM
In no way am I saying sin is not without consequence.


Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.


If you sin deliberately, then all salvation is lost to you forever as there is no sacrifice remaining for your sins. I'm a TULIP believing person, but that's what I get from this Scripture.

Think this one through before responding.

Jesusinmyheart
Jun 4th 2008, 05:21 PM
Well, i have no idea what TULIP is....as i do not subscribe to any denominational doctrines, or phrases.

I just know that sinning intentionally is like playing russian roulette or playing with fire, you may or may not get burned. I personally would not want to risk that.

Shalom,
Tanja

Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 05:31 PM
Total Depravity - man is spiritually dead in his sins
Unconditional Election - there are no conditions preventing God from choosing you
Limited Atonement - Christ died for the sins of the saved alone
Irresistable Grace - God chooses who He chooses to have mercy on
Perseverance of the Saints - Once saved, salvation cannot be lost


I just know that sinning intentionally is like playing russian roulette or playing with fire, you may or may not get burned. I personally would not want to risk that.

Then by this you say there is no blessed assurance. Can any Christian here claim everytime they sinned it wasn't deliberate or willfully? I know I can't.

This is why I made the claim before that we need to look at whether Christians actually commit sin after salvation.

Yuke

VerticalReality
Jun 4th 2008, 06:02 PM
Do you think fibbing to someone to preserve a surprise party is also a "lie" that needs repentence?

This thread is not about this, so let's not derail the topic any further. Feel free to start another thread, however.

Jesusinmyheart
Jun 4th 2008, 06:03 PM
Well my friend, sin is a choice, as is disobedience. Someone who knows the truth, should ideally not fall back into sin.

It's like if you know that adultery is wrong, then would you try to commit adultery?

Now if an extremely good looking woman scantily dressed walked around the corner suddenly and unexpectedly by a male believer he would probably struggle.

This would not be intentional, however would that same man seek to look at scantily clad women?

There is blessed assurance as in:

Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.

"full assurance of Faith" to me reads as "active faith" made up of understanding the truth completed through works:
Jas 2:17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.


This means we are to hold on to all that Yeshua stood for, the promise, the Law, the truth..... this holding on to is also described here:

Eph 6:13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, so that you may be able to withstand on that evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, and fasten the belt of truth around your waist, and put on the breastplate of righteousness.
Eph 6:15 As shoes for your feet put on whatever will make you ready to proclaim the gospel of peace.
Eph 6:16 With all of these, take the shield of faith, with which you will be able to quench all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
Eph 6:17 Take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Eph 6:18 Pray in the Spirit at all times in every prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert and always persevere in supplication for all the saints.

It's our responsibility to clothe ourselves with all that, while God gives us the means and enables us.

Shalom,
Tanja

seamus414
Jun 4th 2008, 06:46 PM
Can any Christian here claim everytime they sinned it wasn't deliberate or willfully? I know I can't.

No not everytime, of course. However, maybe sometimes. You never, unintentionally or without planning to, got caught into a situation where, after it was over, said to your self "how/why in the world did I do that?" or "how/why in the world did that happen?"

seamus414
Jun 4th 2008, 06:48 PM
My question still remains unanswered.

My example of the bigamist remains.

I will restate it:

A man "marries" a woman who is already married. The man is unaware of her existing marriage and goes into the marriage bed for relations with the good faith belief that this is his wife. Objectively he was unmarried and had sex with a married woman.

Did he commit a sin?

Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 06:49 PM
No not everytime, of course. However, maybe sometimes. You never, unintentionally or without planning to, got caught into a situation where, after it was over, said to your self "how/why in the world did I do that?" or "how/why in the world did that happen?"

:agree:

Not everytime, but sometimes.

Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 06:50 PM
I believe that he did not commit a sin, but then I am the one stating Christians cannot sin :)

Yuke

Jesusinmyheart
Jun 4th 2008, 06:59 PM
If a christian cannot sin then what of Ananias and Sapphira

Act 5:1 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,
Act 5:2 and with his wife's knowledge he kept back for himself some of the proceeds and brought only a part of it and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Act 5:3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?
Act 5:4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
Act 5:5 When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it.

They had the Holy Spirit and lied....they were sealed for redemption and fell away and almost instantly died.
Can't say they weren't saved.

Shalom,
Tanja

Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 07:11 PM
Can't say they weren't saved.

Why not? However, if they were saved, was salvation lost to them because of this sin?

moonglow
Jun 4th 2008, 07:12 PM
I am not saying intentional sin can not be forgiven. I am saying that in order to follow Christ we must repent and cease sinning. Christ asked us to be born again so that the Spirit would have a clean vessal in which to reside. But to give a free pass on sin and say we can do it and be forgiven, then why be born again? Why not just give the Spirit to all then? Once the Spirit resides within you and you sin knowingly, do you not think that angers God? Are you not then defiling a temple of God?

That wasn't the point of my post though..In response to your post where you seem to think we just somehow always know when we are sinning, I posted saying, no we don't...and gave the example of my holding grudges against people in my past not realizing this was a sin until several YEARS after I was saved when finally the Holy Spirit showed me this was a sin. I was merely pointing out there are sins in all of our lives that we may not be aware of...many of them are thought sins...bitterness, anger, unresolved hurt, unforgivingness...while we might be thinking gee I am doing so well because I am not killing, not committing adultery, not stealing, not cussing...yet buried deep inside we have sins going on that we may have stuffed for so long we aren't aware of them...until the Holy Spirit shows it to us.

We may have the sin of simply thinking we are somehow better then other Christians...self righteous and not realize it...maybe we are judgmental in areas we shouldn't be. This is an ONGOING work in us to be like Jesus. No one just goes poof and they are like Him over night. It takes time for the Holy Spirit to work in each person, then time to work through those sins and totally get rid of them. For instance I had to go back in my mind through my life and work on remembering why I was even angry towards someone, and then forgiving and it took a long time. As I got past that, then the Holy Spirit shows me something else I need to work on. Its ongoing...and many of these sins are unintentional...meaning we are either not aware they are sins...or don't realize we ARE sinning. Such as someone that gossips thinks they are just 'having conversations' with others and truly don't realize they are gossiping. At some point though the Holy Spirit will show them what they are doing...then if they continue doing it...that is willfully sinning. Until then though they are untentionally sinning...I happens alot even though most think its impossible to untentionally sin...we do it ALL the time.

another for instance...lets say I start reading a book in the bible I have never studied before and it dawns on me its talking about some sin I wasn't aware of being a sin! This is a new thing for me...then I need to look at myself and see if I am doing it...until that point I wasn't aware this was a sin. No one just sits down, reads through the bible in a day and knows every single thing that is considered a sin in it. It can take years and years to study the bible indepth. Meanwhile they may be sinning and not know it! Either God waits for them to learn this on there own through His Word, or convicts them of it sooner.

I am just saying it takes TIME...lots and lots of time to become like Jesus.

God bless

Buck shot
Jun 4th 2008, 07:14 PM
My question still remains unanswered.

My example of the bigamist remains.

I will restate it:

A man "marries" a woman who is already married. The man is unaware of her existing marriage and goes into the marriage bed for relations with the good faith belief that this is his wife. Objectively he was unmarried and had sex with a married woman.

Did he commit a sin?
Yes...if they had sex. Read below...

Gen 20:2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, LORD, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her. 7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

If you feel God it telling you something is a sin you need to pay attention. If you feel it is a sin then you should repent and ask for mercy :cry:

threebigrocks
Jun 4th 2008, 07:14 PM
Why not? However, if they were saved, was salvation lost to them because of this sin?

Look at the verse. The spirit of satan entered the heart to lie to the Holy Spirit. Satan went to where the Spirit was in order to deceive. If the Holy Spirit was alive and well within them and in their heart - is that not saved?

Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 07:20 PM
why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit AND You have not lied to men but to God."

To me, this is the same thing (that whole trinity thing). Satan filled their heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, but this does not say to me that the Holy Spirit was in their heart.

Yuke

threebigrocks
Jun 4th 2008, 07:21 PM
That wasn't the point of my post though..In response to your post where you seem to think we just somehow always know when we are sinning, I posted saying, no we don't...and gave the example of my holding grudges against people in my past not realizing this was a sin until several YEARS after I was saved when finally the Holy Spirit showed me this was a sin. I was merely pointing out there are sins in all of our lives that we may not be aware of...many of them are thought sins...bitterness, anger, unresolved hurt, unforgivingness...while we might be thinking gee I am doing so well because I am not killing, not committing adultery, not stealing, not cussing...yet buried deep inside we have sins going on that we may have stuffed for so long we aren't aware of them...until the Holy Spirit shows it to us.



But today, as a Christian, with doing all we can to take into captivity our minds to Christ and with the Spirit dwelling in us - would we know gossip if it slipped out of our mouth? Would it slip out in the frist place? ;) That I think is the question out there.

I totally agree with you MG, that we grow and mature in our faith walk. It takes a certain maturity (sometimes very little, sometimes a whole lot!) to remedy or repent of things of the past. Hurts take time to heal, and to realize that we need to ask forgiveness.

threebigrocks
Jun 4th 2008, 07:24 PM
To me, this is the same thing (that whole trinity thing). Satan filled their heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, but this does not say to me that the Holy Spirit was in their heart.

Yuke

Goodness! If satan had to go to the heart to deceive the Spirit - then where was the Spirit?

Jesusinmyheart
Jun 4th 2008, 07:25 PM
Yukerboy, ok read a few verses down in the same book and chapter:

Act 5:32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

The Holy Spirit is given to those who obey Him.....
The story of Ananias shows that he had the Holy Spirit as He lied to Him.

So once a follower, and now fallen away and died.

He did not get the chance to repent....

I don't see any way to talk around this issue.

Shalom,
Tanja

seamus414
Jun 4th 2008, 07:25 PM
Yes...if they had sex. Read below...

Gen 20:2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, LORD, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her. 7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

If you feel God it telling you something is a sin you need to pay attention. If you feel it is a sin then you should repent and ask for mercy :cry:


Abimelech was told by God that she was a married woman so the analogy does not work. In my scenario, the man has no idea the woman is already married when he has sex with the woman.

moonglow
Jun 4th 2008, 07:25 PM
Total Depravity - man is spiritually dead in his sins
Unconditional Election - there are no conditions preventing God from choosing you
Limited Atonement - Christ died for the sins of the saved alone
Irresistable Grace - God chooses who He chooses to have mercy on
Perseverance of the Saints - Once saved, salvation cannot be lost



Then by this you say there is no blessed assurance. Can any Christian here claim everytime they sinned it wasn't deliberate or willfully? I know I can't.

This is why I made the claim before that we need to look at whether Christians actually commit sin after salvation.

Yuke

I know I can and have given several examples where I was not aware something I was doing was a sin until several years after I was saved...then the Holy Spirit showed me it was a sin and I worked on it..but it took time...go back and find my posts.

Personally Yuke I cannot stand the doctrine you are following...I nearly lost my faith because of it...the idea God chooses some to go to hell or by default makes sure they never heard the gospel message so they have no choice..the very idea is repulsive to me and goes against SO many scriptures in the bible! Such as John 3:16....God so loved THE WORLD...not God only loved a few in it to send His son. Or the verse about when Jesus is on the cross He would draw ALL men to Him...not a few...but ALL. If you want to discuss TULIP on here I am off this thread for sure..I won't have anything to do with it at all...its horrible...:cry:

moonglow
Jun 4th 2008, 07:27 PM
Abimelech was told by God that she was a married woman so the analogy does not work. In my scenario, the man has no idea the woman is already married when he has sex with the woman.

He wasn't told until later, AFTER he planned to take her as his wife. God prevented him from sinning though and told him...in this case!

seamus414
Jun 4th 2008, 07:37 PM
He wasn't told until later, AFTER he planned to take her as his wife. God prevented him from sinning though and told him...in this case!

The point is that an individual, by any logic, cannot be held personally responsible for committing a sin s/he had no idea s/he was committing. The man who sleeps with someone he thinks is his wife in good faith simply cannot be culpable for the sin. That is simply unjust and God is not unjust.

Buck shot
Jun 4th 2008, 07:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck shot http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1661117#post1661117)
Yes...if they had sex. Read below...

Gen 20:2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, LORD, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her. 7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

If you feel God it telling you something is a sin you need to pay attention. If you feel it is a sin then you should repent and ask for mercy :cry:



Abimelech was told by God that she was a married woman so the analogy does not work. In my scenario, the man has no idea the woman is already married when he has sex with the woman.

Read the scripture. I am not trying to prove you right or wrong, I just answered your question with scripture. Do you have any scripture at all to back up your belief that it's not sin if you don't know?

Try that in court. Ignorance is no excuse even in our liberal judicial system.

Would it have been sin if God would not have stopped him in verse 6? Answer... Yes. God stopped him to keep him from sinning just as He lets us know when we are crossing the line as we mature.

VerticalReality
Jun 4th 2008, 07:46 PM
The point is that an individual, by any logic, cannot be held personally responsible for committing a sin s/he had no idea s/he was committing. The man who sleeps with someone he thinks is his wife in good faith simply cannot be culpable for the sin. That is simply unjust and God is not unjust.

Why then did Israel have to give a sacrificial offering for unintentional sin? What is unintentional sin? How can you unintentionally sin?

Unintentional sin to me means that you have committed an act that you didn't know was sin but indeed was. In your example the husband may not know that what he's doing is sin, but it's still sin. He may not be committing this sin knowledgeably, but he's still joining with another's wife.

threebigrocks
Jun 4th 2008, 07:55 PM
Why then did Israel have to give a sacrificial offering for unintentional sin? What is unintentional sin? How can you unintentionally sin?

Unintentional sin to me means that you have committed an act that you didn't know was sin but indeed was. In your example the husband may not know that what he's doing is sin, but it's still sin. He may not be committing this sin knowledgeably, but he's still joining with another's wife.

Are we under grace or the mosaic law? ;)

The Law provided for attempts to make one righteous, but it cannot do so. Although it strived, and part of that was to attempt to purse the entire self of sin, even things you did which may have inadvertantly caused sin and you were unaware of the fact it did.

Christ took care of that by grace.

seamus414
Jun 4th 2008, 07:55 PM
Why then did Israel have to give a sacrificial offering for unintentional sin? What is unintentional sin? How can you unintentionally sin?

Unintentional sin to me means that you have committed an act that you didn't know was sin but indeed was. In your example the husband may not know that what he's doing is sin, but it's still sin. He may not be committing this sin knowledgeably, but he's still joining with another's wife.

Objectively the act is, indeed, a sin. No doubt.

From the perspective of the unfortunate man, is he culpable for that sin? I would say no. Judging his heart, God would not find any intention to seperate himself from God. Jesus, in the sermon on the mount, tells us that the condition of the heart is more important than actions.

Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 08:05 PM
That is simply unjust and God is not unjust.

Careful. What you consider justice and what God considers justice may be two totally different things.

Looking at what God did to Job and his family, I would have went nuts. Sure God blessed him afterwards, but me, I would've still been mad. God allows Satan to kill my children like that, I'd be the first to scream about the unfairness.

But, to God, it was fair and just.

Now on the converse, if God decided to be perfectly just, then all would be condemned to hell. No one deserves to be saved. I am thankful that God decided to show mercy over his justice.

Yuke

Buck shot
Jun 4th 2008, 08:16 PM
Objectively the act is, indeed, a sin. No doubt.

From the perspective of the unfortunate man, is he culpable for that sin? I would say no. Judging his heart, God would not find any intention to seperate himself from God. Jesus, in the sermon on the mount, tells us that the condition of the heart is more important than actions.


:amen: :thumbsup: :agree: Yes, Yes, Yes!

This is the whole point of weither or not a sin is forgivable! God is looking at our hearts now and the motives of why we are doing what we do! As we mature we will be held to an even higher standard. Not to the lose of salvation but the lose of closeness with God. If we are close to God, we will be listening when He warns us and we can see the way to avoid the sin.

Jesusinmyheart
Jun 4th 2008, 09:45 PM
If we are close to God, we will be listening when He warns us and we can see the way to avoid the sin.1Co 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

This precludes a knowing of the Word, to know how to get out of a situation, just as Yeshua did when he was tempted by Satan.

Shalom,
Tanja

My heart's Desire
Jun 4th 2008, 09:45 PM
1. I am no judge, God knows that mans heart.

2. I don't do things unintentionally.

Remember you stand naked before God. He knows your heart better than you do. Do not sin so that you can stand blameless in the day of judgement.
Even better than that is to believe in the Lord Jesus so you can stand blameless.

Sin is sin regardless right?

VerticalReality
Jun 4th 2008, 09:49 PM
Are we under grace or the mosaic law? ;)

The Law provided for attempts to make one righteous, but it cannot do so. Although it strived, and part of that was to attempt to purse the entire self of sin, even things you did which may have inadvertantly caused sin and you were unaware of the fact it did.

Christ took care of that by grace.

I'm aware of that, threebigrocks, but that is not the point being made. Whether we are under law or grace bears no weight with this question. The question rendered was whether or not the man sleeping with this woman who is married to another man is committing sin. The answer apparently seems to be yes since Israel had to give sacrifice for sins they did unintentionally. In other words, this man may not know he is committing a sin, but a sacrifice still has to be given for this sin regardless.

My heart's Desire
Jun 4th 2008, 09:49 PM
In no way am I saying sin is not without consequence.



If you sin deliberately, then all salvation is lost to you forever as there is no sacrifice remaining for your sins. I'm a TULIP believing person, but that's what I get from this Scripture.

Think this one through before responding.
One is either saved or one is not! That's the only way I know and it is by faith in Jesus Christ. I can't abide by that you are saved but yet maybe your're not but in the end you might be or might not. That doesn't make sense to me.

theleast
Jun 4th 2008, 11:01 PM
another for instance...lets say I start reading a book in the bible I have never studied before and it dawns on me its talking about some sin I wasn't aware of being a sin! This is a new thing for me...then I need to look at myself and see if I am doing it...until that point I wasn't aware this was a sin. No one just sits down, reads through the bible in a day and knows every single thing that is considered a sin in it. It can take years and years to study the bible indepth. Meanwhile they may be sinning and not know it! Either God waits for them to learn this on there own through His Word, or convicts them of it sooner.

I am just saying it takes TIME...lots and lots of time to become like Jesus.

God bless

We can't ever fully become like Jesus. All we can do is try and follow him.

I haven't been clear enough so this is as clear as I can make it. As a Christian I know that EVERYTHING that I do that is not in service to God is a sin. Thus there can be no unintentional sin if I am always serving him. Anything that I do that is not in service to God is a sin.

Peace

threebigrocks
Jun 5th 2008, 01:55 PM
I'm aware of that, threebigrocks, but that is not the point being made. Whether we are under law or grace bears no weight with this question. The question rendered was whether or not the man sleeping with this woman who is married to another man is committing sin. The answer apparently seems to be yes since Israel had to give sacrifice for sins they did unintentionally. In other words, this man may not know he is committing a sin, but a sacrifice still has to be given for this sin regardless.

My point in bringing up grace vs. law is to show that yes the man is in sin. No doubt. The wonderful thing is that if he believes in the saving grace of Christ his heart is known and can be forgiven by asking and turning from "his wife" and her deception.

The wife, hiding the fact she was married is in a whole different situation in that not only adultery but deception and causing a brother to stumble is on her shoulders. To remove what is in her heart and gain reconciliation to God by forgiving and being forgiven for the whole mess is the challenge. Flesh is a powerful thing.

VerticalReality
Jun 5th 2008, 02:05 PM
My point in bringing up grace vs. law is to show that yes the man is in sin. No doubt. The wonderful thing is that if he believes in the saving grace of Christ his heart is known and can be forgiven by asking and turning from "his wife" and her deception.

The wife, hiding the fact she was married is in a whole different situation in that not only adultery but deception and causing a brother to stumble is on her shoulders. To remove what is in her heart and gain reconciliation to God by forgiving and being forgiven for the whole mess is the challenge. Flesh is a powerful thing.

I agree with that.

fewarechosen
Jun 5th 2008, 02:12 PM
We can't ever fully become like Jesus. All we can do is try and follow him.

I haven't been clear enough so this is as clear as I can make it. As a Christian I know that EVERYTHING that I do that is not in service to God is a sin. Thus there can be no unintentional sin if I am always serving him. Anything that I do that is not in service to God is a sin.

Peace

so true, but i think many of us miss that

brakelite
Jun 6th 2008, 12:59 AM
I'm aware of that, threebigrocks, but that is not the point being made. Whether we are under law or grace bears no weight with this question. The question rendered was whether or not the man sleeping with this woman who is married to another man is committing sin. The answer apparently seems to be yes since Israel had to give sacrifice for sins they did unintentionally. In other words, this man may not know he is committing a sin, but a sacrifice still has to be given for this sin regardless.

That is true. And if sacrifice was required for the Jew in the OT, then Christ our sacrifice is required today. Thus whether the sin is intentional or not is a moot point. The fact of the case remains that either way we are accountable, not only for intentional sin, but for 'unknown' sin also. Either way we need Jesus.
I guess it is important therefore to ensure we always remain open to the Holy Spirit that He may reveal to us any sin that may be either hidden or buried.
If not, we will be held accountable for remaining in ignorance. Thus there is no excuse for sin of any kind.

Yukerboy
Jun 6th 2008, 01:30 AM
One is either saved or one is not! That's the only way I know and it is by faith in Jesus Christ. I can't abide by that you are saved but yet maybe your're not but in the end you might be or might not. That doesn't make sense to me.


I agree with you 100%. I'm just saying that by the Scripture quoted, we are wrong.

Yuke

brakelite
Jun 6th 2008, 05:59 AM
One is either saved or one is not! That's the only way I know and it is by faith in Jesus Christ. I can't abide by that you are saved but yet maybe your're not but in the end you might be or might not. That doesn't make sense to me.

It must be remembered that although those who are in Christ can rightly claim to be saved, retaining that position is conditional.
In the Old Testament,how was Israel saved? By works? No. By the law? No.
They were saved by the blood of the Passover Lamb. They sprinkled the blood of the lamb upon the doorposts of their houses and the destroying angel passed them by. In order to be saved by that blood they had to have faith in God's word that:
a. There was a definite threat of death.(Rom 6:23)
b. That the application of the blood of the Lamb would indeed protect them.
" For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:".

Thus it was faith that brought them life through the blood of the Lamb. Sound familiar?
It was after they were saved, and after they were baptised in the sea that God showed them His law. They could not bypass Sinai. "This is how you now must live" God said." Obey Me and live, and I will lead you to the promised land. " What happened to those who did not obey? They fell in the wilderness.
"But they had the blood of the Lamb to cover them" some may say. (And many today say it of themselves):hmm: but that was not enough was it. Disobedience nullified the blood and they could not enter into God's promises.
These things were written for our example,that we may learn from them.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Now that we are saved also by the blood of the Passover Lamb let us not bypass Sinai or think that we can ignore God's requirements. "Shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid!". Know assuredly that those who do, though they may claim salvation, ("Many shall come to Me in that day and say Lord? Lord? ....) will not enter in to the promised land unless they meet the conditions.

And if you want to know the conditions, look up a concordance and study all the 'ifs' connected with God's promises.

brakelite
Jun 6th 2008, 09:45 AM
The point is that an individual, by any logic, cannot be held personally responsible for committing a sin s/he had no idea s/he was committing. The man who sleeps with someone he thinks is his wife in good faith simply cannot be culpable for the sin. That is simply unjust and God is not unjust.

Shall the priests and rulers of Israel and the Romans therefore escape condemnation for murdering the Son of God because 'they knew not what they were doing?'

Naphal
Jun 6th 2008, 09:54 AM
Shall the priests and rulers of Israel and the Romans therefore escape condemnation for murdering the Son of God because 'they knew not what they were doing?'


Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

brakelite
Jun 6th 2008, 11:29 AM
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

If those priests and rulers and Romans had sought forgiveness, they would have found it, even for that horrific crime. Many did. Most didn't. They did not find forgiveness, because in their pride and stubbornness they refused to repent. (Read Steven's speech to them). Their ignorance of the magnitude of their crime did not alleviate any of them from their culpability.

theleast
Jun 6th 2008, 12:17 PM
Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

If those priests and rulers and Romans had sought forgiveness, they would have found it, even for that horrific crime. Many did. Most didn't. They did not find forgiveness, because in their pride and stubbornness they refused to repent. (Read Steven's speech to them). Their ignorance of the magnitude of their crime did not alleviate any of them from their culpability.

Good point, but lets not assume they were ignorrant of the crime, just its magnitude.

brakelite
Jun 7th 2008, 07:21 AM
Good point, but lets not assume they were ignorrant of the crime, just its magnitude.

Then we must remember also that Jesus warned His disciples (this includes us) that some would persecute and murder them (aka Saul/Paul) and think they were serving God in doing so.
The papacy managed to accomplish this in a corporate capacity throughout the dark ages. Those perpetrating the inquisition and the extermination of the Waldenses and Albignenses thought that by obeying the dictates of the popes they were serving God. They were ignorant not only of the crime, but also the magnitude. They were destroying the truth.
In the final analysis their ignorance will not save them in the final judgment.

Read Rev 13. In the near future true disciples will be persecuted because they refuse to worship the way the rest of world does. The world will be so deceived they believe they are worshiping the true God, and will be consenting to and partaking in the persecution of the few who choose to worship according to their conscience as opposed to the way the world government dictates.
In their case will the fact that they were deceived save them? Will the fact that they thought they were worshiping the true God save them?

Not sure if I'm getting off topic here, just trying to bring the adultery/ignorance/marriage thing into a more relevant scenario where we personally need to consider our own choices in our day.

Naphal
Jun 7th 2008, 07:29 AM
Read Rev 13. In the near future true disciples will be persecuted because they refuse to worship the way the rest of world does.

I think we can get more detailed than that. Satan goes to persecute those who have the testimony of Christ and he is allowed to succeed for a time. What they will refuse to do is receive his mark as the rest of the world receives. It is written they should be killed for this refusal and I am sure many of them shall but some certainly survive to see Christ return. I know you believe worship on a certain day is key there but I see nothing in the text to suggest that.




The world will be so deceived they believe they are worshiping the true God, and will be consenting to and partaking in the persecution of the few who choose to worship according to their conscience as opposed to the way the world government dictates.


Can't disagree with that.

Naphal
Jun 7th 2008, 07:31 AM
Good point, but lets not assume they were ignorrant of the crime, just its magnitude.

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

theleast
Jun 7th 2008, 01:02 PM
1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

How does this scripture pertain to Adam and Eve?

Naphal
Jun 7th 2008, 08:33 PM
How does this scripture pertain to Adam and Eve?

It doesn't pertain to them but to those that killed/had killed Jesus.

Servant89
Jun 17th 2008, 01:54 PM
The question posted in this thread is: Can a Christian be forgiven for sins committed on purpose?

The answer to this question lies on one verse in Acts 13:39.

In Leviticus chapters 4 and 5, God calls out the sin offerings. Notice that all the sins offerings stated there are for sins committed in ignorance, inadvertently. If the sin is committed on purpose, like it states in Numbers 15:29-30, there is no sacrifice for that kind of sin, the person is sent in exile, away from Israel. The Old Testament law does not have a sin offering that can account for a sin committed on purpose (with the full knowledge of the law). The point of that is that no one can make it to heaven by keeping the law, because the best of us fails on that department as Paul attested in Rom chapter 7.

But the good news is that even though the Old Testament law, through the blood of bull and goats and sheeps, could not justify us for sins committed on purpose, the blood of Jesus Christ offers something extra. It is written:

Rom 8:3 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Acts 13:39 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Mk 3:28 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

1 Jn 1:9 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Think of Peter denying the Lord after the Lord told him he would do that.

Go ahead, praise his hame.

Shalom

davidandme
Jun 17th 2008, 07:07 PM
If the person is genuine and ask for forgiveness, why not?

Joe King
Jun 17th 2008, 07:42 PM
Aren't all sins intentional?

davidandme
Jun 17th 2008, 08:00 PM
No, but before God a person is only responsible for intentional sins