PDA

View Full Version : Discussion Can a Christian sin?



Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 06:28 PM
It seems that I have touched off a controversy.

Please, let all posts in this thread be reasonable, scripturally based, and without anger.

I have stated that Christians cannot sin.


1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Yuke

timmyb
Jun 4th 2008, 06:29 PM
then where does Hebrews 10:26-28 play into that?

Buck shot
Jun 4th 2008, 06:40 PM
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

I am not big on just using one verse but this one speaks like a picture to me. As we grow in our walk with the Lord, things that we at one time did not think were sinful begin to bother us. Like the lie of telling children something that is not true (define a lie). As these things start to bother us we should yield and ask forgiveness. These could be looked at as the steps in our growth from babes in Christ to mature christians. If we chose to not accept that we sin then we are stunting our own growth.

James in the verse above is showing us that sin (to a son or daughter of God) is not doing what we know is good. You can try to measure sin in any way you want and call it whatever you want. James called it sin.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

crawfish
Jun 4th 2008, 06:41 PM
The question isn't "can Christians sin", because it is very obvious they can. The question is, "do Christians pay the ultimate price for their sin" - and the answer to that is no, God's grace has covered our sins and offers perfect redemption.

Caveat: I believe a Christian can be saved at one point, and then utterly reject Christ afterwards and "lose" his salvation. One could argue whether or not that Christian had ever really gained it.

Slug1
Jun 4th 2008, 06:43 PM
It seems that I have touched off a controversy.

Please, let all posts in this thread be reasonable, scripturally based, and without anger.

I have stated that Christians cannot sin.



YukeRead it in context. It's telling you that you cannot "continue" to sin. Continuing to sin as in, lets sin and sin some more cause I don't have God in me. A Christian will sin, but is convicted to this sin... knows it's a sin thus will stop, seek forgiveness and be repentant. Struggle with it and the key is "struggle" cause they know it's a sin and wrong. As God works on them, in time they will not be bound by any specific sin that had them bound.

Those without Christ in them sin and don't even know they're sinning, don't care it's a sin, and do it more for whatever reason. The moment they give themselves to Christ this sin and/or sinful lifestyle with change as the Holy Spirit convicts them.

We've been with sin since creation and Eve, then Adam ate of the fruit.

threebigrocks
Jun 4th 2008, 06:43 PM
Or Romans 7



14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.


So long as we are stuck in this flesh, the possibility of sinning remains. The only man that can't sin is a dead one. ;)

Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 06:46 PM
Alright, this is still a semi-new train of thought for me, so bear with me as I explain why a Christian cannot sin.

John says in 1 John 3:9 that whoever is born of God cannot sin. Cannot implies inability. Christians are UNABLE to sin.

I struggled with this verse. I kept saying I know I sin, so this verse must be wrong, then I felt that God opened my eyes.

First, I looked for the definition of sin.

1 John 3:4 "...sin is transgression of the law."

Fair enough. Breaking the law is sin. I know the law, I know I broke it, therefore I still sin. So either I am not born of God or 1 John 3:9 is wrong, and it even seems that John contradicts himself earlier when he said (1 John 1:8) "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

Then I was led to:

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

If all things are lawful, then there can be no transgression. Where there is no transgression, there is no sin. Yet, John still stated we deceive ourselves if we say we have no sin.

Paul goes even further as threebigrocks points out to clarify this.

Romasn 7:16-20 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Paul says it is no longer you who sins, but the sin that dwells in you that commits it. Why does he say that?

1 Corinthians 6:11 "...you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

God washed you of all sin, you were washed, sanctified, and justified (past tense) in one fell swoop.

Now what about the other verses brought up by most posters here?

Hebrews 10:26-28

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins"

If no sacrifice remains, then the person who sins willfully is not born of God. If a sacrifice remains, then he did not sin willfully. As Paul states, "for I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not." Being born of God, the willing is present, but the doing of good is not.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

To him, the person that knows to do good, it IS sin. To God, no law has been transgressed. Paul even goes on to state that (Romans 4:15) "...where there is no law there is no transgression." and (Romans 6:14) "...you are not under law, but under grace." and then (Galatians 5:18) "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law."

Now, this is where we talk about the spirit and the flesh. A Christian's responsibility is to control the sin the flesh has abiding within it. The flesh will continue to sin and your soul must strive daily against the flesh. But you, your soul, your id, cannot sin.

Yuke

Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 07:58 PM
Before you guys jump all over me, understand that I would have done the same even two weeks ago.

If someone told me a Christian cannot sin, I would have laughed and walked away, thinking them to be of the holier than thou cult.

Please, PLEASE, don't think that about me.

I'm not saying I am sinless. I am saying that ALL Christians are sinless, though we all do have sin abiding within our flesh.

Yuke

faithfulfriend
Jun 4th 2008, 08:01 PM
Or Romans 7



So long as we are stuck in this flesh, the possibility of sinning remains. The only man that can't sin is a dead one. ;)

Ro 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Ro 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8 is Paul writing after his conversion (being saved). Sure does seem to contradict Romans 7 doesn't it?

threebigrocks
Jun 4th 2008, 08:03 PM
Before you guys jump all over me, understand that I would have done the same even two weeks ago.

If someone told me a Christian cannot sin, I would have laughed and walked away, thinking them to be of the holier than thou cult.

Please, PLEASE, don't think that about me.

I'm not saying I am sinless. I am saying that ALL Christians are sinless, though we all do have sin abiding within our flesh.

Yuke

We can't live withouth the flesh. As long as the flesh lives, sin lives too.

Wouldn't ALL Christians include you? That would make you sinless, correct?

I'm not following ya at all on this. Simple reasoning makes this clear as mud to me. Care to elaborate?

faithfulfriend
Jun 4th 2008, 08:07 PM
Before you guys jump all over me, understand that I would have done the same even two weeks ago.

If someone told me a Christian cannot sin, I would have laughed and walked away, thinking them to be of the holier than thou cult.

Please, PLEASE, don't think that about me.

I'm not saying I am sinless. I am saying that ALL Christians are sinless, though we all do have sin abiding within our flesh.

Yuke

You're saying you're not sinless, but Christians are?

So in order to be a Christian, one must live without sin (sinless)?

Just trying to see what you are saying. How can you be sinless but yet have sin in your flesh?

threebigrocks
Jun 4th 2008, 08:09 PM
Ro 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Ro 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8 is Paul writing after his conversion (being saved). Sure does seem to contradict Romans 7 doesn't it?


Sure does seem to. But it doesn't. ;)

Hold your breath for 60 minutes.

Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 08:18 PM
"We can't live withouth the flesh. As long as the flesh lives, sin lives too.

Wouldn't ALL Christians include you? That would make you sinless, correct?

I'm not following ya at all on this. Simple reasoning makes this clear as mud to me. Care to elaborate?"

Sin lives within the flesh, but our soul, the actual us, the body of Christ is without sin. It is no longer us who sins, but the sin living within our flesh.

All Christians include me, but I didn't want you to think I was saying I am sinless, but you are not, the whole body of believers is made sinless, having been washed, justified and sanctified.


You're saying you're not sinless, but Christians are?

So in order to be a Christian, one must live without sin (sinless)?

Just trying to see what you are saying. How can you be sinless but yet have sin in your flesh?

I'm saying all Christians, me included, no longer sin. However, in the flesh, we have sin living within us that sins. This is why the flesh CANNOT please God as you put it. But we are not of the flesh now, we are of the spirit.

In order to be a Christian, one must (will) strive against the flesh that has sin living within it.

Your soul is sinless, but your flesh is full of sin. It is not your flesh that has been washed, justified, or sanctified, but you, your soul, your id.

Yuke

faithfulfriend
Jun 4th 2008, 08:21 PM
Sin lives within the flesh, but our soul, the actual us, the body of Christ is without sin. It is no longer us who sins, but the sin living within our flesh.

All Christians include me, but I didn't want you to think I was saying I am sinless, but you are not, the whole body of believers is made sinless, having been washed, justified and sanctified.



I'm saying all Christians, me included, no longer sin. However, in the flesh, we have sin living within us that sins. This is why the flesh CANNOT please God as you put it. But we are not of the flesh now, we are of the spirit.

In order to be a Christian, one must (will) strive against the flesh that has sin living within it.

Your soul is sinless, but your flesh is full of sin. It is not your flesh that has been washed, justified, or sanctified, but you, your soul, your id.

Yuke

Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Crucified means to put to death completely. So how does one go about crucifying the flesh completely? What does crucifying the flesh mean?

Ta-An
Jun 4th 2008, 08:23 PM
Because my mother-tongue is not English/American, it is important for my understanding to make sure whether you mean :"May" or "Can"
May = permission to sin
Can = Ability to sin

:hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 08:42 PM
Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Crucified means to put to death completely. So how does one go about crucifying the flesh completely? What does crucifying the flesh mean?

Romans 7:5-6

"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

This is saying that at one time, before salvation we were in the flesh, but now as born again Christians it has been crucified and we are no longer in the flesh.

Yukerboy
Jun 4th 2008, 08:45 PM
Because my mother-tongue is not English/American, it is important for my understanding to make sure whether you mean :"May" or "Can"
May = permission to sin
Can = Ability to sin

:hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:


I mean can. The Christian, as accorded to John in 1 John 3:9 states one who is born of God Cannot sin.

To me this means unable to. Not that we shouldn't, but that we can't. Impossible to sin.

Yuke

faithfulfriend
Jun 4th 2008, 10:05 PM
I mean can. The Christian, as accorded to John in 1 John 3:9 states one who is born of God Cannot sin.

To me this means unable to. Not that we shouldn't, but that we can't. Impossible to sin.

Yuke

So if it's impossible for a true Christian to commit sin, do you?

Are you saying in order to be considered a true Christian, one must not sin?

RoadWarrior
Jun 4th 2008, 10:32 PM
It seems that I have touched off a controversy.

Please, let all posts in this thread be reasonable, scripturally based, and without anger.

I have stated that Christians cannot sin.

Yuke

Hi Yuke,

This is a bit confusing, if you don't understand it in context. It sounds like you are doing some good work, reading and studying and seeking to understand; I want to encourage you to keep going, don't get stuck.

I like Wiersbe's commentary on this section.

1 John 3:9-18
IV. The New Nature Within (3:9-18)
The key thought of chapters 3-5 is "sonship," which results in a new nature within the believer. God does not destroy or eradicate the old nature; rather, He implants a new nature that gives the believer a desire for spiritual things. Verse 9 should say, "Whosoever is born of God does not habitually, deliberately sin; for he has the seed of the new nature within." This new nature cannot sin. Of course, believers who yield to the old nature will stumble and fall. See Gal 6:1-2.

John contrasts the children of God and the children of the devil, using Cain and Abel as examples. Abel had faith and was accepted; Cain tried to be saved by works but was not accepted (Ge 4). Cain was a liar and a murderer, like the devil (Jn 8:44); he murdered his brother, then lied about it to God. Ge 3:15 states that Satan's seed (children) will oppose God's seed. Note Mt 3:7 and 23:33. This will finally culminate in Christ's battle with the Antichrist in the last days. But please note that Satan's children are "religious." Cain worshiped at an altar, and the Pharisees were the most religious people of their day. Not religion, but a true love for God and God's children, should be the test of our devotion to God. True Christians do not hate and murder; instead, they show love and try to help others. The new nature that is implanted at the new birth is responsible for this change.
(from Wiersbe's Expository Outlines on the New Testament. Copyright 1992 by Chariot Victor Publishing, an imprint of Cook Communication Ministries. All rights reserved.)

Sin is always present, and if we want to be sin-free (even as Christians) we have to constantly make the right choices. We are always to "put on the new man" and to "walk by the Spirit". If it were an automatic thing after having prayed the sinner's prayer, the world would be a lovely place indeed.

But it is not automatic. We have to work at being righteous. That is why there are so many scriptures tellings us what it looks like to be righteous, exhorting us to live righteous lives, and giving us instructions on how to do that.

Look back at the first chapter of the book:

1 Jn 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

As a Christian, we do sin inadvertently, but the message is clear - keep your accounts short with God, confess quickly and allow Him to cleanse you. And do not think you can confess on Sunday and go back to sinning all week! Confession, repentance, and cleansing should build us up so that we sin less and less as times goes by. Sometimes it takes chastening by the Lord to train us to stop sinning.

Heb 12:11
11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
NKJV

The work of the Holy Spirit is to train us.


We must always be careful not to build a doctrine on one verse taken out of context. Study the whole of the book, then you will see what is really being said. Compare scripture with scripture, it becomes more clear as you keep on studying and learning.

RogerW
Jun 5th 2008, 01:14 AM
I mean can. The Christian, as accorded to John in 1 John 3:9 states one who is born of God Cannot sin.

To me this means unable to. Not that we shouldn't, but that we can't. Impossible to sin.

Yuke

Greetings Yuke,

Had you considered that what John is saying is that when we walk in the Spirit we cannot sin, because the Spirit cannot sin. The flesh however still struggles against sinning in this life. So, when we walk in the flesh we sin. It's as though John is telling us to put off the flesh, and put on the new life in the Spirit and sin not. If we are born of God, His spiritual seed remains in us, and this spiritual seed, (as you call it our id) cannot sin.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

I don't think you have said otherwise, but this passage shows us that we can sin when we are walking in the flesh, and Christ is our advocate with the Father when we do slip up and allow ourselves to be enticed by the world, our flesh or the devil and commit sin.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Many Blessings,
RW

Slug1
Jun 5th 2008, 02:12 AM
I mean can. The Christian, as accorded to John in 1 John 3:9 states one who is born of God Cannot sin.

To me this means unable to. Not that we shouldn't, but that we can't. Impossible to sin.

YukeRead the scripture in context cause all by itself as you paste it in a post, sure it means that. Yet when you read from the beginning of the chapter to v10 then the true meaning is revealed.

Athanasius
Jun 5th 2008, 02:15 AM
The view doesn't line up existentially either. Not only must it agree with scripture, but it must agree with reality--this view simply doesn't... On both counts.

But hey, if I can't sin, what's to stop me from living exactly how I want to live?

RoadWarrior
Jun 5th 2008, 02:23 AM
It seems that I have touched off a controversy.

...


Maybe a firestorm? ;) Playing with matches will do that ... :lol: .

Libre
Jun 5th 2008, 02:45 AM
I have spent time musing over this myself.

Here's another slant. Our renewed spirit cannot sin. We walk in this. But, we also are flesh and do things that are unworthy. What are we to do? As Paul says, Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I tend to believe that what counts is the spirit, although what the flesh does is forgiven as well. So, we really cannot sin unto death. I don't think anyone believes that. But what we do in the flesh will be burnt up anyway. Our hearts constrain us to follow Christ and walk in the spirit, for we love Him and want to be with Him in our earthly walk.

I like the old Amy Grant song, I Have Decided. Being good is just a fable, I just can't 'cause I'm not able, Goin' to leave it to the Lord.

Well, sorta ramblin' here. Thinkin' and typin'. But I kinda don't worry about sin and keep my eyes on Him. If a mess up, I know it. I say I'm sorry and keep on walking.

Pat

Naphal
Jun 5th 2008, 03:00 AM
Gill:

doth not commit sin; does not make it his trade and business; it is not the constant course of his life; he does not live and walk in sin, or give up himself to it; he is not without the being of it in him, or free from acts of sin in his life and conversation, but he does not so commit it as to be the servant of it, a slave unto it, or to continue in it;

My heart's Desire
Jun 5th 2008, 04:05 AM
Gill:

doth not commit sin; does not make it his trade and business; it is not the constant course of his life; he does not live and walk in sin, or give up himself to it; he is not without the being of it in him, or free from acts of sin in his life and conversation, but he does not so commit it as to be the servant of it, a slave unto it, or to continue in it;

I think that's pretty good don't you? :)

Naphal
Jun 5th 2008, 04:08 AM
I think that's pretty good don't you? :)


Yes, which is why I posted it.

ARCHER42
Jun 5th 2008, 05:45 AM
What did Paul 'delight in' ????? Paul as a Born Again Believer... filled with the Holy Ghost stated:

He delighted in 'law of God after the inward man'... that is the spiritual law that God writes on one's heart... and that 'spiritual law that He places in a believer's mind.. for true believers have the 'mind of Christ'..

The inner man is the soul and spirit of a person.. that which is 'quickened' at the New Birth.. and JUSTIFIED' by Faith thru the Shed Blood of the Perfect Work at Calvary.... and what of the flesh? the flesh profitith for nothing.. for it shall return to the dust... Paul 'knew' that in his flesh dwelleth no good thing and that there was a 'law of sin' abiding in it... Those who are not 'quickened' or Born Again are 'dead' in trespasses and sins.. they are spiritually dead... The consequences of this is Eternal Separation... damnation.


Christ had NO LAW OF SIN ABIDING IN HIS FLESH AND HE 'KNEW' NO SIN'... He was Pure... yes He partook of flesh and blood as His children did.. and He was tempted in every way as we are.. yet without sin....

He even further goes on to explain that at the Cross.. God sending His Son in the likenss of sinful flesh.. and for sin; condemned sin in the flesh by nailing it to the Cross.. so that the Righteousness of the Law might be fullfilled by those who walk not after the flesh .. but those who walk after and are Led of the Spirit....

Paul talked about situations where, 'that' what He wanted to do or the good that he wanted to do ; He didnt do or even allow...........

but the evil: he didnt want to do or the things he hated............... that he did...

He also stated for 'to will' is present with me but how to perform that which is good; I find not.......

He explained this and it was the fact that there is a war going on between the flesh of a person and the spiritual law of God which is written on the heart and dwells in the mind.. He went on to state that the war was against the spiritual law of God, which was present in his mind.. this war , which was warring against his mind, at times brought him into captivity to the law of sin which was in his flesh..

He even went on to state that it wasnt even him that did these things . but 'the law of sin that dwelleth in his flesh... does this mean that Paul had become 'sinless' or didnt have the capablity of sinning? I should say not... He goes on to state that he rejoiced in the fact that he served the law of God, which is Spiritual, with his mind.. but with his flesh the law of sin....

Does this mean Paul was 'sinning' all the time? Most certainly not.. The law of sin was there in his flesh.. but to walk over that and not let that control your life.. you have to Walk in the Spirit.... Paul talked about 'mortifying' your members.. that is crucifying.. crucifying the flesh... when the flesh is crucified.. that law of sin which is still there is held back, its kept in check......... it doesnt disappear so that your flesh will become pure.. there is only One Man to have Pure flesh wihtout any law of sin..... that is Jesus the Christ......

its stated.... Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fullfill the lusts of the flesh...



Paul states that 'every believer' should know how to possess his/her vessel in Sanctification and Honour;>>>>>> not in the lust of concupisscence as the Gentiles do... this is why Paul always talks about 'fleeing fornication'..

He says to 'flee from it'... also to mortify your members or crucify your flesh so you wont be overtaken by it or other deeds of the flesh....... such as inordinate affection, covetousness which is idolatry., uncleaness, evil concupiscence

In reference to the Bible quote of Scripture about whoever is born of God does not commit sin... you have to look at that verse in context... its talking about 'his seed'.. that is the reproductive seed of man.. this seed when looked at in the Greek is sperm.. It goes on to explain that you will recognize the children of the devil from the children of God.. they are manifest.... this is reference to 'fornication'..... the children of the devil..

and the children of God.. their seed remains within them....

unless you have a Godly man and woman get married when they 2 shall become one flesh..

As Christians your to mortify your members so that does not overtake you... both women and men...


Are there times when a Christian sins and makes a mistake? Yes... if we sin we have an advocate with the Father.. Jesus Christ the Righteous... who stands on our behalf.. He stands on our behalf as the 'accuser of the brethern' hurls insults and accusations at God for those mistakes done by His children... God responds by saying .. Washed and Protected by the Blood of My Son... begone.... Satan...

Paul states that there is therefore NOW NO CONDEMNATION to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit...

For the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus hath made believers free from the law of sin and death... the 'curse' has no more effect on those who are Freed from it by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus...

Little children...... we are debtors not to live after the flesh.. but to be led of the Spirit....

ProjectPeter
Jun 5th 2008, 07:26 AM
I promise you this... "the devil in me did it" ain't going to fly come judgment day. ;)

Ta-An
Jun 5th 2008, 09:15 AM
Like the drift I get from other posts..... I'd just like to spell it out.... We need to look first at the qualities/criteria that makes up a Christian ;)

threebigrocks
Jun 5th 2008, 01:14 PM
Like the drift I get from other posts..... I'd just like to spell it out.... We need to look first at the qualities/criteria that makes up a Christian ;)

Ah, the lady has read my mind! :)

IMHO, most anything we discuss can be clarified or outright explained if we return to the simplicity of the gospel message!

ARCHER42
Jun 5th 2008, 01:32 PM
Like the drift I get from other posts..... I'd just like to spell it out.... We need to look first at the qualities/criteria that makes up a Christian ;)


I agree.. how many are 'actually' Born Again of the Spirit.. that Miracle that God does in revealing His Goodness and His umerited Grace to an individual, thus bringing them to full repentance... This is where it Starts....

Calvin
Jun 5th 2008, 02:17 PM
It seems that I have touched off a controversy.

Please, let all posts in this thread be reasonable, scripturally based, and without anger.

I have stated that Christians cannot sin.



Yuke

Yukerboy, I have struggled with this same question before in my life. If it's not possible for a Christian to sin, why is there so much instruction and rebuke and commands to "mortify the flesh" in the bible. If it were impossible to sin, the bible would just be a history book and instruction manual on how to lead others to Christ. :2cents:

Libre
Jun 5th 2008, 02:55 PM
What I beleive judgment day means for believers is that we will be in the resurrection of the righteous. We will be judged righteous already, for we are in Christ. Else we wouldn't be raised then, but would be raised with the wicked. We will go into eternal life at that point - although we already have eternal life, it is more positional than in reality, for we will die physically unless we are alive when He comes. The Bible says that all works done in the flesh and not in faith will be burned up. The account we give of ourselves is our confession of Christ, not answering a life-long list of charges. God is not the accuser. We are under the blood of Christ and clean.

I know many will disagree with this, and think it is too simplistic. But I do believe the things of God are simple, and we ourselves make them complicated. This is how I live my life in Him. My eyes are not on what I do that falls short. My eyes are on Jesus and His joy - which is my strength.

Don't get me wrong. When I mess up, I know it. I have cried in deep sorrow and He has lifted me up each time.

Pat

Yukerboy
Jun 5th 2008, 08:11 PM
So if it's impossible for a true Christian to commit sin, do you?

Are you saying in order to be considered a true Christian, one must not sin?

Do I sin? I have always believed so up until 2 weeks ago. As John said, one who is born of God cannot sin and as Paul said, it is no longer I who does it, but the sin within my flesh. Sin is transgression of the law, but all things are lawful to the Christian, though not all things are beneficial.


We must always be careful not to build a doctrine on one verse taken out of context. Study the whole of the book, then you will see what is really being said. Compare scripture with scripture, it becomes more clear as you keep on studying and learning.

True, which is exactly why I continued to look for more and more answers and it felt like I was being guided by the Holy Spirit in my search.


If it's not possible for a Christian to sin, why is there so much instruction and rebuke and commands to "mortify the flesh" in the bible. If it were impossible to sin, the bible would just be a history book and instruction manual on how to lead others to Christ.

Because even though our soul/spirit/id can no longer sin, our flesh does. It has sin within it. It is our responsibility to WAR with the flesh. It is our responsibility to prevent the flesh from sinning. We must struggle daily with the flesh.



Like the drift I get from other posts..... I'd just like to spell it out.... We need to look first at the qualities/criteria that makes up a Christian ;)


Archer, I believe that all those who have salvation are born of God and therefore Christians.


I promise you this... "the devil in me did it" ain't going to fly come judgment day.

Come judgement day, those who are saved will be saved. Those who aren't won't be.


I have spent time musing over this myself.

Here's another slant. Our renewed spirit cannot sin. We walk in this. But, we also are flesh and do things that are unworthy. What are we to do? As Paul says, Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I tend to believe that what counts is the spirit, although what the flesh does is forgiven as well. So, we really cannot sin unto death. I don't think anyone believes that. But what we do in the flesh will be burnt up anyway. Our hearts constrain us to follow Christ and walk in the spirit, for we love Him and want to be with Him in our earthly walk.

That is EXACTLY what I'm saying, not so eloquently of course. :)


The view doesn't line up existentially either. Not only must it agree with scripture, but it must agree with reality--this view simply doesn't... On both counts.

But hey, if I can't sin, what's to stop me from living exactly how I want to live?

What I have stated lines up 100% with Scripture and reality.

What's stopping you from living exactly how you want to live is the flesh. For, if you are saved, you want to live like Christ. However, the sin abiding in the flesh prevents that.

Now an unsaved person would be opposite. They live according to the flesh and not the spirit.


Read the scripture in context cause all by itself as you paste it in a post, sure it means that. Yet when you read from the beginning of the chapter to v10 then the true meaning is revealed.

Ok, which scripture do you wish to start with? Which do you consider ouot of context? The ones in 1 John? Or perhaps James, or Hebrews? Maybe Romans, possibly Galatians? I know, it must be 1 Corinthians.

Just having fun with you. I used to be the biggest hollerer about taking the Bible out of context, but in this case, I think not only is it in context, but the same themes are throughout the texts.


Had you considered that what John is saying is that when we walk in the Spirit we cannot sin, because the Spirit cannot sin. The flesh however still struggles against sinning in this life. So, when we walk in the flesh we sin. It's as though John is telling us to put off the flesh, and put on the new life in the Spirit and sin not. If we are born of God, His spiritual seed remains in us, and this spiritual seed, (as you call it our id) cannot sin.

Absolutely, which is what I am saying. However, those who are born of God cannot sin, for they do not walk in the flesh, but in the spirit. It isn't your flesh that is cleansed, but your spirit. Your spirit cannot sin and must battle against the flesh every minute to prevent it from sinning, which it will.


1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


Amen!


I don't think you have said otherwise, but this passage shows us that we can sin when we are walking in the flesh, and Christ is our advocate with the Father when we do slip up and allow ourselves to be enticed by the world, our flesh or the devil and commit sin.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


I have said otherwise. If any man sins, we have an advocate. We have all sinned, but we no longer "slip up". Your soul/spirit/id has been cleansed and justified once for all time. It is no longer you who sins, but the sin living within your flesh. One who is born of God cannot sin.


Verse 9 should say, "Whosoever is born of God does not habitually, deliberately sin; for he has the seed of the new nature within.

I admit it, I have an extremely difficult time with stating what a Scripture should say. Nowhere does it say in 1 John about habitual or deliberate.


Sin is always present, and if we want to be sin-free (even as Christians) we have to constantly make the right choices. We are always to "put on the new man" and to "walk by the Spirit". If it were an automatic thing after having prayed the sinner's prayer, the world would be a lovely place indeed.


Exactly. But our flesh can never be sin free.

Yuke

Slug1
Jun 5th 2008, 08:14 PM
Yuke, In context... read 1 John 3:1-10 and the real meaning of v9 is clear. It is not the meaning you are spinning it into... the "Doctrine of Yukerboy" ;)

RogerW
Jun 5th 2008, 08:42 PM
Do I sin? I have always believed so up until 2 weeks ago. As John said, one who is born of God cannot sin and as Paul said, it is no longer I who does it, but the sin within my flesh. Sin is transgression of the law, but all things are lawful to the Christian, though not all things are beneficial.

Absolutely, which is what I am saying. However, those who are born of God cannot sin, for they do not walk in the flesh, but in the spirit. It isn't your flesh that is cleansed, but your spirit. Your spirit cannot sin and must battle against the flesh every minute to prevent it from sinning, which it will.

Are you saying that you no longer sin because you are born of God and now walk perfectly in the Spirit?



I have said otherwise. If any man sins, we have an advocate. We have all sinned, but we no longer "slip up". Your soul/spirit/id has been cleansed and justified once for all time. It is no longer you who sins, but the sin living within your flesh. One who is born of God cannot sin.

You never walk in the flesh since you are born again?



Exactly. But our flesh can never be sin free.

Yuke

If your flesh can never be sin free, how can you argue that since you are born again, you cannot sin? When you became born again what happened to your flesh?

Many Blessings,
RW

Libre
Jun 5th 2008, 08:43 PM
Aw, I like the cute penguin. And he asks a very good question.

1 John 3:4-10 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.How can I say this? Hmmm. We are told to keep the flesh under, to mortify it's deeds. I believe we do this by walking in the spirit. We who are in the light walk in the spirit. The spirit keeps the flesh at bay if we are truly desiring to walk with Jesus. We may slip, but that does not mean we sin in the way that most think of it.

Sin is the transgression of the law. The law was nailed to the cross. And Gentiles never were under the Jewish laws anyway. Read what Paul says on Mars Hill to the Athenians. No mention of law.

The trouble is that by learning the law, we Christians have put ourselves under condemnation that wasn't intended. IMO.

The Holy Spirit is quite capable of letting us know when we miss it. That is why He was sent. Conviction of the HS always shows us the way to get it right. Guilt comes from our conscience which has been misinformed by the law. Then the accuser of the brethren, the devil, can get us under condemnation.

We have the righteousness of Christ and do walk in it, even when we slip. There is no condemnation. There is instead growing up into Christ.

Pat

Yukerboy
Jun 5th 2008, 08:43 PM
read 1 John 3:1-10 and the real meaning of v9 is clear. It is not the meaning you are spinning it into... the "Doctrine of Yukerboy"

OK. I'll post the text you speak of and go verse by verse. I really don't find anything being taken out of context.




1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 4 Whoever commits sin also transgresses the law, for sin is transgression of the law. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Verse 1 tells us we are children of God and that God has bestowed a great manner of love on us.

Verse 2 states we are now children of God. When God is revealed, we shall be like Him.

Verse 3 says that we who have this hope purifies himself. (define purify)

Verse 4 defines sin and states whoever breaks the law sins.

Verse 5 states Christ was here in the flesh to take away our sins and that in Him, there is no sin.

Verse 6 tells us that we who abide in Him do not sin. Anyone who does sin neither sees Him or knows Him.

Verse 7 tells us that whoever practices righteousness (define righteousness) is righteous.

Verse 8 tells us that he who sins is of the devil (does not abide in Christ). Jesus came in the flesh to destroy the works of the devil.

Verse 9 states we do not sin and cannot sin (implies inability) because we have been born of God.

Verse 10 states the difference between those who are born of God and those born of Satan is that those born of Satan do not practice righteousness nor loves his brother.
Is this pretty much correct? :D

alethos
Jun 5th 2008, 08:51 PM
It seems that I have touched off a controversy.

Please, let all posts in this thread be reasonable, scripturally based, and without anger.

I have stated that Christians cannot sin.



Yuke
The expressions "does not continue to sin," and "cannot go on sining" have often been used to teach that a true Christian, that has been born again is incapable of sinning. But such an interpretation cannot be maintained, unless we are prepared to say that John contradicts himself. In 2:1

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Yukerboy
Jun 5th 2008, 08:55 PM
Are you saying that you no longer sin because you are born of God and now walk perfectly in the Spirit?

Let me be careful because I haven't looked for anything to dispute this, but yes, I believe ALL Christians being born of God now walk perfectly in the Spirit.


You never walk in the flesh since you are born again?

Once again, I carefully say true.


If your flesh can never be sin free, how can you argue that since you are born again, you cannot sin? When you became born again what happened to your flesh?


Because you are no longer of the flesh, but of the spirit. It is no longer you who sins, but the sin living within the flesh that does it. When you became born again, the flesh became your enemy.

Romans 7:5 states we "were" in the flesh. Romans 8:9 states "ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit"

As for what happened to it? I honestly don't know.

Yuke

ARCHER42
Jun 5th 2008, 08:56 PM
In Proverbs it states that a 'foolish thought' is sin... Is your mind 24/7 always in perfect union with God .. do your thoughts stray during the day? Have you ever had a thought that is 100 percent contrary to the Will of God? If you have then you have 'sinned'.. we are to take every thought captive.. and make it obedience To Christ.. but you tell me on the days when your are tired and maybe even sick.. Are your thoughts 100 percent in line and tune with the Holy Ghost? Jesus never had a 'foolish' thought... in His 33 plus years on this earth.. He never did... meditate on that for some time

RogerW
Jun 5th 2008, 09:16 PM
Let me be careful because I haven't looked for anything to dispute this, but yes, I believe ALL Christians being born of God now walk perfectly in the Spirit.

Once again, I carefully say true.

Because you are no longer of the flesh, but of the spirit. It is no longer you who sins, but the sin living within the flesh that does it. When you became born again, the flesh became your enemy.

Romans 7:5 states we "were" in the flesh. Romans 8:9 states "ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit"

As for what happened to it? I honestly don't know.

Yuke

Greetings Yuke,

If we can attain to sinlessness, certainly we should see Paul, by example, showing himself to have attained unto sinless perfection. But what we see instead is Paul admitting that even he has not attained the perfection he longs for. Paul continues to press toward that goal of perfection he longs to attain, but admits even he has not achieved it. Why can even Paul not attain to that he longs for? Because he, and we are still wearing our bodies of death.

Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Not only does Paul acknowledge that he has not attained unto sinlessness he strives after, he admonishes those who say they have attained perfection. This is speaking of those who are viewed as mature. He tells them to be thus minded as he. That is to humbly acknowledge as does he that sinless perfection is what we seek after, and saying we are already made perfect makes us otherwise minded, and contrary to the teachings of Paul. Paul further hopes that God will reveal this attitude; thinking ourselves to have achieved sinless perfection while wearing bodies of death, for this is a sinful attitude.

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

We should hold on to what we have already attained in our striving against sin, but remember that we should also walk by the same rule (standard, example) Paul has set for us. And that we should be like minded followers in seeking to attain sinless perfection, but acknowledging that we have yet to attain unto that we seek, and will not attain perfection in this life.

Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Finally, Paul seems to be linking those who think they have attained sinless perfection while in these bodies of death to the enemies of the cross of Christ. And concludes by telling us that at His coming Christ will change our vile bodies, and fashion them into glorious bodies, without sin.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

The way the word "perfect" has been defined in Php 3:12 is to literally accomplish, consecrate, finish, fulfill, make perfect. But the word "perfect" in vs 15 is defined with a slight difference and speaks of being complete in various applications of labor, growth, mental, or moral character. In other words it seems to imply spiritual maturity. So it would seem that Paul is acknowledgeing that he has not yet been made perfect, without sin, and understands that as long as he wears the physical body of death he will not be. So, he speaks to those who show a mature faith, and tells them they should be thus minded. In other words they should have the same mind as Paul regarding attaining sinless perfection, realizing that to be otherwise minded would not be following his example. And in following his example, they too ought to seek to attain sinless perfection, knowing that they will not be made perfect/complete until they are changed from their vile bodies of death.

Many Blessings,
RW

BroRog
Jun 5th 2008, 09:17 PM
Yuke,
I believe the role of the Holy Spirit is to intercede for us, help us learn the truth, teach us what we need to know, open our eyes to wisdom and things like that. Becoming sinless is something that takes place in the next age. Sinlessness is a condition Paul calls "glorification", which is a hope for which we wait. (Romans 8)

Libre
Jun 5th 2008, 09:47 PM
Philippians 3:1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:1&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) (Green's Literal Translation) For the rest, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you truly is not tiresome to me, but safe for you. 2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:2&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) Look out for the dogs, look out for the evil workers, look out for the concision party . 3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:3&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) For we are the circumcision, the ones who worship by the Spirit of God, and who glory in Christ Jesus, and who do not trust in flesh.
4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:4&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) Even though I might have trust in flesh; if any other thinks to trust in flesh, I more; 5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:5&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) in circumcision, the eighth day, of the race of Israel, the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; according to Law, a Pharisee; 6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:6&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) according to zeal, persecuting the assembly; according to righteousness in Law, being blameless. 7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:7&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss because of Christ. 8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:8&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) But, no, rather I also count all things to be loss because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them to be trash, that I might gain Christ
9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:9&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) and be found in Him; not having my own righteousness of Law, but through the faith of Christ, having the righteousness of God on faith, 10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:10&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) to know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, having been conformed to His death, 11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:11&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) if somehow I may attain to a resurrection out of the dead. 12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:12&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) Not that I already received or already have been perfected, but I press on, if I also may lay hold, inasmuch as I also was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:13&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) Brothers, I do not count myself to have laid hold, but one thing I do , forgetting the things behind, and stretching forward to those things before, 14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:14&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) I press on after a mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:15&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) Then as many as are perfect, let us be of this mind; and if you think anything differently, God will also reveal this to you. 16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:16&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) Yet as to where we have arrived, walk by the same rule, being of the same mind.
17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:17&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) Be fellow-imitators of me, brothers, and consider those walking this way, even as you have us for a pattern. 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:18&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) For many walk as hostile to the cross of Christ, of whom I often told you, and now even weeping I say it, 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:19&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) whose end is destruction, whose god is the belly, and who glory in their shame, the ones thinking earthly things. 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:20&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) For our citizenship is in Heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:21&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) who will transform our body of humiliation, for it to be conformed to His body of glory, according to the working of Him to be able even to subject all things under Himself.



From this I get that some are hostile to the cross of Christ, but those found in Christ are not, having His righteousness.


So, it still seems that if we are in Christ, we walk in the spirit and will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, which Paul called the law we serve with the mind. We may have foolish thoughts, and we may "sin", but it's not the sin that causes death. It is sin that has already been dealt with on the cross.


Sin just means missing the mark, like an arrow. We will always miss the mark, but we will still get there, because we have His righteousness on our account.


May I say here that I so appreciate this board. I've wanted to explore topics like this, but most places you just get yelled at and told you couldn't be a Christian and talk about such things. And then they lock the thread. :hug:



Pat

Yukerboy
Jun 6th 2008, 12:00 AM
The expressions "does not continue to sin," and "cannot go on sining" have often been used to teach that a true Christian, that has been born again is incapable of sinning. But such an interpretation cannot be maintained, unless we are prepared to say that John contradicts himself. In 2:1

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

He tells the little children he writes to them so that they may not sin.
He then says should any man (note it is not ye) sin, we have an Advocate. All true.


In Proverbs it states that a 'foolish thought' is sin

Tell me this, what is a foolish thought?


Paul continues to press toward that goal of perfection he longs to attain, but admits even he has not achieved it. Why can even Paul not attain to that he longs for? Because he, and we are still wearing our bodies of death.

Answer some questions for me first, because I am truly struggling with Philippians 3:10-13.

3:10 says Paul wants to know Christ. He doesn't already?
3:12 Paul says "Not that I have already obtained all this". What is all this?
He also says he presses on to take hold of that for which Christ took hold of Paul. I'm totally lost here. What is that for which Christ took hold of Paul?
3:13, Paul states "Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it." What is "it"?



I believe the role of the Holy Spirit is to intercede for us, help us learn the truth, teach us what we need to know, open our eyes to wisdom and things like that. Becoming sinless is something that takes place in the next age. Sinlessness is a condition Paul calls "glorification", which is a hope for which we wait. (Romans 8)

Now, in no way did I ever state or make the claim that our flesh has been sanctified. Never think that I am saying that our flesh is without sin also. I have said we have been spiritually washed, sanctified, and justified. Not yet glorified.


May I say here that I so appreciate this board. I've wanted to explore topics like this, but most places you just get yelled at and told you couldn't be a Christian and talk about such things. And then they lock the thread.

Ditto above. :pp

Libre
Jun 6th 2008, 12:20 AM
Philippians 3:10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:10&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) to know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, having been conformed to His death, 11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:11&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) if somehow I may attain to a resurrection out of the dead. 12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:12&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) Not that I already received or already have been perfected, but I press on, if I also may lay hold, inasmuch as I also was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:13&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) Brothers, I do not count myself to have laid hold, but one thing I do , forgetting the things behind, and stretching forward to those things before, 14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:14&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) I press on after a mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

To me, Paul is saying he wants to know Him more, better, more intimately. Yes, he knows Christ. But the cry of our hearts is always to press in, to know Him better. To grow up into the fullness of Christ. We are, as the KJV says, apprehended by Christ. He has stopped us in our tracks. We have turned from our ways and followed Him. He has, in effect, arrested us. In love. But He has plucked us from the wrong way and put us on the right one. Deep calls unto deep,as the scripture says.

That's what I read in the passage above.

And if any do not have that hunger to follow Him, then they would most likely be the ones who don't know Him. They would be the ones called carnal, perhaps not even saved, but hanging around the fringes trying to figure out what's up with those Christians, but not knowing first hand. I don't really know, but in today's churches we all have known these types of people. Shallow and blown about.

Pat

RoadWarrior
Jun 6th 2008, 12:31 AM
Philippians 3:10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:10&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) to know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, having been conformed to His death, 11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:11&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) if somehow I may attain to a resurrection out of the dead. 12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:12&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) Not that I already received or already have been perfected, but I press on, if I also may lay hold, inasmuch as I also was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:13&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) Brothers, I do not count myself to have laid hold, but one thing I do , forgetting the things behind, and stretching forward to those things before, 14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+3:14&t=lit&sr=1&l=en) I press on after a mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


Thanks for posting the scriptures, Pat. You said some good things here. I'd just like to add my perspective.

Paul wants not just to know about Jesus, he wants to know Him more completely, including these:
*the power of His resurrection
*the fellowship of His suffering
*being conformed to His death

Paul's goal is that he would attain to the resurrection after his own death.

He recognizes that serving Jesus is not just a matter of praying a simple prayer, but that it is a process, a journey. Not one event, but a lifetime of continuing on in the same direction.

Paul doesn't count how many good things he has already done to see if it has been enough, he keeps looking ahead not behind. There are more struggles ahead and he knows that is where the focus needs to be.

alethos
Jun 6th 2008, 12:45 AM
Let me be careful because I haven't looked for anything to dispute this, but yes, I believe ALL Christians being born of God now walk perfectly in the Spirit.



Show us a verse that says that Christian's walk perfectly in the Spirit 100% of the time.

Christian's are commanded to walk in the Spirit so that they will not fulfill the lust of the flesh (Gal 5:16). The fact that they had to be commanded to do so proves that they don't always walk perfectly otherwise they wouldn't need to be commanded to do so. The command would be pointless.
We are not perfect, we are merely becoming more perfect as we continue to abide in Him, and grow in the grace and knowledge of Him.

The following was written to believers:
2 Cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting (continuous and on-going tense) holiness in the fear of God.

Paul who was already saved and laid hold of by Christ when he wrote the following stated that he wasn't as yet perfect:
Phi 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect: but I press on, if so be that I may lay hold on that for which also I was laid hold on by Christ Jesus.

The writter of Hebrews stated that we need to press on unto perfection
Heb 6:1 Wherefore leaving the doctrine of the first principles of Christ, let us press on unto perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God

James didn't say we were already perfect, he said that "ye may be perfect" proving we aren't. This deals with the on-going continious process called sanctification. It's a continious on-going work within each and every believer.
James 1:4 And let patience have its perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, lacking in nothing.

Once again
The expressions "does not continue to sin," and "cannot go on sining" (1 John 3:9) have often been used to teach that a true Christian, that has been born again is incapable of sinning. But such an interpretation cannot be maintained, unless we are prepared to say that John contradicts himself. In 2:1
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And we know the Epistle on 1 John was written specifically to believers, not unbelievers.
1 John 5:13 - I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God

.

Libre
Jun 6th 2008, 01:13 AM
Let's read the whole context.

Galatians 5:13-26 For, brothers, you were called to freedom. Only do not use the freedom for an opening to the flesh. But through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in this : "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Lev. 19:18 15 But if you bite and devour one another, be careful that you are not consumed by one another. 16 But I say, Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another; lest whatever you may will, these things you do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under Law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, fightings, jealousies, angers, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and things like these; of which I tell you beforehand, as I also said before, that the ones practicing such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 meekness, self-control. Against such things there is not a law. 24 But the ones belonging to Christ crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become vainglorious, provoking one another, envying one another.

The verse, 16, is not a commandment. It says to do it (in the sense of "if you do it"), and you won't do the other. Indeed, walking in the spirit cannot be commanded, because it is what we do when we are in Christ, new creations, filled with the Holy Spirit. It is the reality of our new birth. To me, Paul is just explaining how it works.

Pat

Yukerboy
Jun 6th 2008, 01:19 AM
Show us a verse that says that Christian's walk perfectly in the Spirit 100% of the time.

I can't. I was wrong. Paul said in Galatians "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." I guess this implies, we don't always walk in the Spirit, even though we live in the Spirit. And living in the Spirit, one cannot sin. Walking in the Spirit would mean not to allow the sin abiding in the flesh to sin either.

Of course, the rest of your passages state arguments I have answered already. All of these references to perfection are references to trying to make the flesh obey the spirit.

As for sanctification. Sanctified will be found here

1 Corinthians 6:11 "...ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

These are in the past tense. If you look at this verse in context you will see that God took the sinner and cleansed them from all unrighteousness, not only that, but justified them and sanctified them in one fell swoop.

Hebrews 10:14 (speaking of the spirit being made perfect) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



Yuke

alethos
Jun 6th 2008, 01:26 AM
As for sanctification. Sanctified will be found here

1 Corinthians 6:11 "...ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

These are in the past tense. If you look at this verse in context you will see that God took the sinner and cleansed them from all unrighteousness, not only that, but justified them and sanctified them in one fell swoop.

Hebrews 10:14 (speaking of the spirit being made perfect) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Sanctification is spoken of in various tenses. Initial. or positional sanctification is spoken of in the past tense, while continious ongoing sanctification, also called practical sanctification is spoken of in the present on-going tense.

A great verse referring to sanctification in the present on-going tense is:
2 Cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

The are other such verses as well, but the one above is my favorite.

ARCHER42
Jun 6th 2008, 01:28 AM
Tell me this, what is a foolish thought?
-----------------------------------------------------------

I want you to tell me and the rest of this board.... Do you have a Concordance that you can use to research and teach you what the Hebrew meaning of it is? I know what it means.. But I want you to tell me and the rest of this board what it means.....

Libre
Jun 6th 2008, 01:46 AM
Sanctification is spoken of in various tenses. Initial. or positional sanctification is spoken of in the past tense, while continious ongoing sanctification, also called practical sanctification is spoken of in the present on-going tense.

A great verse referring to sanctification in the present on-going tense is:
2 Cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

The are other such verses as well, but the one above is my favorite.I have a problem with this also. How do we cleanse ourselves? How do we perfect holiness?

Pat

faithfulfriend
Jun 6th 2008, 01:47 AM
I have a problem with this also. How do we cleanse ourselves? How do we perfect holiness?

Pat

We don't cleanse ourselves, Jesus does:

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Yukerboy
Jun 6th 2008, 01:56 AM
Fair enough.

'ivveleth is translated here as foolishness. Elsewhere in the text it is translated as folly 13 times, then foolishness 10 times.

zimmah is translated here as thought. Elsewhere in the text it is translated as Lewdness 14 times, wickedness 4 times, wicked mind once, and as thought only once which is here.

So, could it be:

The lewdness of foolishness is sin? Nope
The wickedness of foolishness is sin? Probably not
The wicked mind of foolishness is sin? We just may be on to something.

alethos
Jun 6th 2008, 02:00 AM
I have a problem with this also. How do we cleanse ourselves? How do we perfect holiness?

Pat

First of all Scripture clearly says;

2 Cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

If it is found in Scripture then it must be believed.

Secondly Scripture also admonishes us to:
1 Tim 5:22 keep thyself pure.

One way I cleanse myself and keep myself pure, is to resist temptation, and to say no to sin.

.

alethos
Jun 6th 2008, 02:05 AM
We don't cleanse ourselves, Jesus does:

Yes Jesus cleanses us, and Scripture admonishes us we are to cleanse ourselves also. Unless you want to erase the following verse out of your Bible.

2 Cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Not my words friend. It's written in the Bible. Check it out.

.

faithfulfriend
Jun 6th 2008, 02:08 AM
Yes Jesus cleanses us, and Scripture admonishes us we are to cleanse ourselves also. Unless you want to erase the following verse out of your Bible.

2 Cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Not my words friend. It's written in the Bible. Check it out.

.

What I mean is we can't cleanse ourselves from sin, but after Jesus cleanses us from sin, we can keep ourselves clean (pure).

RogerW
Jun 6th 2008, 02:11 AM
What I mean is we can't cleanse ourselves from sin, but after Jesus cleanses us from sin, we can keep ourselves clean (pure).

Very true! And how do we do that? We could not unless:

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Many Blessings,
RW

Yukerboy
Jun 6th 2008, 02:13 AM
First of all Scripture clearly says;

2 Cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

If it is found in Scripture then it must be believed.

I'm having a difficult time with this myself, but as you say, if it is found in Scripture, it must be believed.

"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Ah yes, if it is in Scripture, it must be believed.

Yuke

Naphal
Jun 6th 2008, 03:48 AM
I'm having a difficult time with this myself, but as you say, if it is found in Scripture, it must be believed.

"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Ah yes, if it is in Scripture, it must be believed.

Yuke


Yes but the verse above does not mean what it appears to be saying. It isn't that we stop sinning but stop sinning as a way of life.

Gill

and he cannot sin;

not that it is impossible for such a man to do acts of sin, or that it is possible for him to live without sin; for the words are not to be understood in the sense of those who plead for perfection in this life; for though the saints have perfection in Christ, yet not in themselves; they are not impeccable, they are not free from sin, neither from the being nor actings of it; sin is in them, lives in them, dwells in them, hinders all the good, and does all the mischief it can: or in such sense, as if the sins of believers were not sins; for though they are pardoned and expiated, and they are justified from them, yet they do not cease to be sins; they are equally contrary to the nature, will, and law of God, as well as the sins of others; and are oftentimes attended with more aggravated circumstances, and which God in a fatherly way takes notice of, and chastises for, and on the account of which he hides his face from them: nor does the phrase intend any particular single sin, which cannot be committed; though there are such, as sinning wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, or denying Christ to be the Saviour of sinners, and a sacrifice for sin, and hatred of a Christian brother as such, and sinning the sin unto death, or the unpardonable sin; neither of which can be committed by a regenerate man: nor is the meaning only, though it is a sense that will very well bear, and agrees with the context, that such persons cannot sin as unregenerate men do; that is, live in a continued course of sinning, and with pleasure, and without reluctance, and so as to lie in it, as the whole world does: but rather the meaning is, he that is born of God, as he is born of God, or that which is born of God in him, the new man, or new creature, cannot sin; for that is pure and holy; there is nothing sinful in it, nor can anything that is sinful come out of it, or be done by it; it is the workmanship of the Holy Spirit of God; it is a good work, and well pleasing: in the sight of God, who is of purer eyes than to behold sin with delight; and an incorruptible seed, which neither corrupts nor is corrupted; and though it is as yet an imperfect work, it is not impure: the reason of the impeccability of the regenerate man, as such, is

Libre
Jun 6th 2008, 04:33 AM
How do we keep ourselves pure, if we are already clean in Him. Jesus told His disciples they were clean. I've always seen this as doing the "do"s, and not doing the don'ts, for against such there is not law. No law, no sin.

But there is more.

The passage just before the 2 Cor. 7:1, which should be read for context, is:

2 Cor 6:16-18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2co+6:16&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) 16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2co+6:17&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2co+6:18&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

In other words, idolatry was the order of the day during the time of the early church. If they kept themselves from idols, this seemed to be the primary thing. We say, well, duh, of course we don't worship idols. But they were tempted on all sides.

Pat

daughter
Jun 6th 2008, 10:10 AM
So if it's impossible for a true Christian to commit sin, do you?

Are you saying in order to be considered a true Christian, one must not sin?
That is not what he's saying at all. It's a hard concept to explain, but what he's saying is... a true Christian, bought and cleansed and ransomed by the Blood of Christ, filled with God's Holy Spirit, even though they may commit sin, is kept by the Grace of God from being eternally defiled by that sin. The sins we commit in our flesh we now loathe and abominate. The lusts we once enjoyed make our spirit sick. When we recognise sin it grieves us... because we are being perfected by the Holy Spirit into Christ Jesus.

I can't explain it very well, and I certainly sin. We all do, and yukkerboy has definitely acknowledged that. But that sin is no longer us. We belong to the King.

Does anyone get that?

alethos
Jun 6th 2008, 10:18 AM
"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Ah yes, if it is in Scripture, it must be believed.

Yuke

Indeed.

1 John 5:13 I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God

Since the Epistle of 1 John was written specifically to believers, was John contradicting himself in the previous chapters when he wrote the following to believers?

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

.

alethos
Jun 6th 2008, 10:25 AM
How do we keep ourselves pure

Here is a Scriptural answer.

1 Pet 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently:

Below is a question for you.

If I do not resist temptation, and give into temptation, and continue in a habitual lifestyle of unconfessed sin, can I still be clean?

.

Firstfruits
Jun 6th 2008, 01:02 PM
The question isn't "can Christians sin", because it is very obvious they can. The question is, "do Christians pay the ultimate price for their sin" - and the answer to that is no, God's grace has covered our sins and offers perfect redemption.

Caveat: I believe a Christian can be saved at one point, and then utterly reject Christ afterwards and "lose" his salvation. One could argue whether or not that Christian had ever really gained it.

I take it you are refering to sins that are forgiven after repenting?

"do Christians pay the ultimate price for their sin" - and the answer to that is no, God's grace has covered our sins and offers perfect redemption.

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jun 6th 2008, 01:06 PM
That is not what he's saying at all. It's a hard concept to explain, but what he's saying is... a true Christian, bought and cleansed and ransomed by the Blood of Christ, filled with God's Holy Spirit, even though they may commit sin, is kept by the Grace of God from being eternally defiled by that sin. The sins we commit in our flesh we now loathe and abominate. The lusts we once enjoyed make our spirit sick. When we recognise sin it grieves us... because we are being perfected by the Holy Spirit into Christ Jesus.

I can't explain it very well, and I certainly sin. We all do, and yukkerboy has definitely acknowledged that. But that sin is no longer us. We belong to the King.

Does anyone get that?

You have explained it well, better than I have done.

It is no longer you who sins however, but the sin that abides in the flesh that does it.


1 John 5:13 I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God

Since the Epistle of 1 John was written specifically to believers, was John contradicting himself in the previous chapters when he wrote the following to believers?

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


I have answered this previously. We have sin. It abides in our flesh. He tells the children they may not sin. He then says if any man (note it does not say if you, but any man) sins, we have an Advocate.

All true.


1 Pet 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently:

Below is a question for you.

If I do not resist temptation, and give into temptation, and continue in a habitual lifestyle of unconfessed sin, can I still be clean?

Your spirit/soul/id will resist temptation. Your soul/spirit/id will continue to war with the flesh that has sin abiding in it. Your spirit/soul/id cannot sin and does not continue in a habitual lifestyle of unconfessed sin. It cannot, for sin is transgression of the law, but now, as one in Christ, all is lawful. Finally, as one in Christ, your spirit/soul/id is and will remain cleansed.

Yuke

Firstfruits
Jun 6th 2008, 01:12 PM
It seems that I have touched off a controversy.

Please, let all posts in this thread be reasonable, scripturally based, and without anger.

I have stated that Christians cannot sin.



Yuke

According to the following if we abide in the will of God then it is possible, but not all are obedient to the will of God, and will yield to temptation.

1 Cor 10:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

To whom do we yield?

Not everyone that sayeth Lord, Lord, enter heaven.

Mt 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jun 6th 2008, 01:15 PM
According to the following if we abide in the will of God then it is possible, but not all are obedient to the will of God, and will yield to temptation.

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

To whom do we yield?


If we yield to temptation, though we do not want to, it is no longer we who sins, but the sin living within us that does it.
I find that I do that which I do not want to do, but the good I want to do, that I do not do...


Not everyone that sayeth Lord, Lord, enter heaven.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

100% agree with you here. :)

Yuke

Firstfruits
Jun 6th 2008, 01:39 PM
If we yield to temptation, though we do not want to, it is no longer we who sins, but the sin living within us that does it.
I find that I do that which I do not want to do, but the good I want to do, that I do not do...



100% agree with you here. :)

Yuke

With regards to what you said; If we yield to temptation, though we do not want to, it is no longer we who sins, but the sin living within us that does it.

How do the following scriptures apply, and to whom?

Rom 5:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Rev 2:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 2:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Why would a christian need to repent if it is the sin that is inside that does the sin?

ProjectPeter
Jun 6th 2008, 02:04 PM
That is not what he's saying at all. It's a hard concept to explain, but what he's saying is... a true Christian, bought and cleansed and ransomed by the Blood of Christ, filled with God's Holy Spirit, even though they may commit sin, is kept by the Grace of God from being eternally defiled by that sin. The sins we commit in our flesh we now loathe and abominate. The lusts we once enjoyed make our spirit sick. When we recognise sin it grieves us... because we are being perfected by the Holy Spirit into Christ Jesus.

I can't explain it very well, and I certainly sin. We all do, and yukkerboy has definitely acknowledged that. But that sin is no longer us. We belong to the King.

Does anyone get that?So once you become a Christian... that sin no longer comes from the heart? There lies the biggest problem with this theory. Sin comes from the heart. So many different analogies Christ used but to put it simply... from a good tree comes good fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit just as a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

Mark 7:21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.
23 "All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."

If one is defiled then they are defiled.

Yukerboy
Jun 6th 2008, 02:21 PM
How do the following scriptures apply, and to whom?

Rom 5:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

All have sinned. No one denies that.

Rom 5:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

By Christ's obedience, we are made righteous. Agree here too.

Rev 2:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

They had to repent of leaving their first love. This states they have left Christ, for Christ is our first love, correct? And in leaving Christ, they are no longer (or for believers of OSAS, never were) saved. So, by not abiding in Christ, they can sin, for if they abided in Christ, they cannot sin (1 John 3:9).

Rev 2:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

What sin was here? "Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitan" according to Rev 2:15. What was the doctrine of the Nicolaitan? I can go no farther than that until I know what that "doctrine" is.

Rev 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Once again, Revelation 3:1 tells us that "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." This tells me that having a name that they are alive (calling themselves Christians) but they are dead (having not life, not being in Christ)

threebigrocks
Jun 6th 2008, 02:24 PM
If we yield to temptation, though we do not want to, it is no longer we who sins, but the sin living within us that does it.
I find that I do that which I do not want to do, but the good I want to do, that I do not do...



100% agree with you here. :)

Yuke

So we have no control nor responsibility over when we sin, since it's not us actually doing so? That is how your post reads, and I am thinking that is not quite what you meant. Why do we need to persevere or keep our focus in our walk through this world if we are not responsible for the sin we do?

Paul in that verse says he sins - that which I do not want to do, that I do. He owns up to it fully. The flesh can rise up and take a bite out of us, and it's us who bear that dirty mark until we get it cleaned up. Our faith, our personal walk, our destiny.

ProjectPeter
Jun 6th 2008, 02:27 PM
You have explained it well, better than I have done.

It is no longer you who sins however, but the sin that abides in the flesh that does it.



I have answered this previously. We have sin. It abides in our flesh. He tells the children they may not sin. He then says if any man (note it does not say if you, but any man) sins, we have an Advocate.

All true.



Your spirit/soul/id will resist temptation. Your soul/spirit/id will continue to war with the flesh that has sin abiding in it. Your spirit/soul/id cannot sin and does not continue in a habitual lifestyle of unconfessed sin. It cannot, for sin is transgression of the law, but now, as one in Christ, all is lawful. Finally, as one in Christ, your spirit/soul/id is and will remain cleansed.

Yuke


If we yield to temptation, though we do not want to, it is no longer we who sins, but the sin living within us that does it.
I find that I do that which I do not want to do, but the good I want to do, that I do not do...



100% agree with you here. :)

YukeYou won't be Calvinist very much longer... you are just a step away from "Free Grace" theology if holding to this belief.

You seem to want to separate the heart from everything but yet we know it is out of the heart where sin comes from. That's "spiritual" flesh if you will and why Scripture (both Testaments) make it clear that it is the spiritual circumcision (heart) that God is concerned about... the "natural circumcision is not. Passages such as "love God with all your "HEART", soul and mind come into play here. If your heart is bent on evil then that is what you are... evil in the eyes of God.

What you are in fact doing, truth be told, is giving the "flesh" supreme authority in your life. Even above the spirit. May I be so bold as to say that this means there is just so much you don't understand. I know this is difficult because frankly... there is just so much goofy, junk, nonsense, teaching out there today. But Scriptural reality... you DO NOT have to live by the flesh. Folks love to crawl all over Romans chapter 7 and Lord knows that there are many a "Christian" that chooses to park themselves in Romans 7 and thus live. Problem is... that IS NOT what Paul intended. He wanted all readers to MOVE INTO CHAPTER 8. Problem is... folks get stuck in chapter 7 and thus they have their excuses. Get out of chapter 7 of Romans. Do what Paul intends and move into Chapter 8. I'll be honest with you here... you are in a dangerous situation and moving into a dangerous doctrine.

I know that it isn't likely that you will listen to guys like myself and that's fine. But listen to Roger. He too is Reformed and while he and I disagree about a lot of things... we do not disagree on the issue of being obedient to Christ and the need for holiness. I could give a flip if you "follow Ken." Just follow Christ. Christ would have NOTHING to do with what you are speaking now. I pray, if nothing else, that you do realize that what you are saying now is very much what the Nicolatian's taught. The very thing that John WARNED and was WARNING against when he penned 1 John. Study this... listen to Roger and never mind me. :)

Yukerboy
Jun 6th 2008, 02:28 PM
So we have no control nor responsibility over when we sin, since it's not us actually doing so? That is how your post reads, and I am thinking that is not quite what you meant.

You're right, that's not what I meant.

Our responsibility is to war with our flesh daily. To deny the flesh fulfillment of it's lusts and temptations. However, when the flesh succeeds, it is not that we have sinned, but the sin living within our flesh that has sinned.

Yuke

faithfulfriend
Jun 6th 2008, 02:39 PM
May I be so bold as to say that this means there is just so much you don't understand. I know this is difficult because frankly... there is just so much goofy, junk, nonsense, teaching out there today. But Scriptural reality... you DO NOT have to live by the flesh. Folks love to crawl all over Romans chapter 7 and Lord knows that there are many a "Christian" that chooses to park themselves in Romans 7 and thus live. Problem is... that IS NOT what Paul intended. He wanted all readers to MOVE INTO CHAPTER 8. Problem is... folks get stuck in chapter 7 and thus they have their excuses. Get out of chapter 7 of Romans. Do what Paul intends and move into Chapter 8. I'll be honest with you here... you are in a dangerous situation and moving into a dangerous doctrine.

:)

Romans 6 and 8 gives Paul's testimony of having complete victory over sin.

Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

He could also teach others:

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

ProjectPeter
Jun 6th 2008, 02:42 PM
You're right, that's not what I meant.

Our responsibility is to war with our flesh daily. To deny the flesh fulfillment of it's lusts and temptations. However, when the flesh succeeds, it is not that we have sinned, but the sin living within our flesh that has sinned.

Yuke
Don't be deceived ... it was in fact you that sinned.

ProjectPeter
Jun 6th 2008, 02:42 PM
Romans 6 and 8 gives Paul's testimony of having complete victory over sin.

Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

He could also teach others:

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
right... that was in fact Paul's point. :)

threebigrocks
Jun 6th 2008, 02:44 PM
You're right, that's not what I meant.

Our responsibility is to war with our flesh daily. To deny the flesh fulfillment of it's lusts and temptations. However, when the flesh succeeds, it is not that we have sinned, but the sin living within our flesh that has sinned.

Yuke

Honestly, if we focused on our flesh constantly where is our mind and heart? This is a doctrine that I have seen people take hold of and it's the "evil behind every rock", "blame game" that is played. That will mess with your mind and I've seen the paranoia that accompanies it as sin and law and satan gets the blame. If your mind is so focused on the flesh, yet you do nothing about it because the decision to sin is out of your control - then what role do you leave the Spirit to do a work in you?


I don't see a difference between your first and this post at all. It's saying the same thing.

ProjectPeter
Jun 6th 2008, 02:46 PM
Honestly, if we focused on our flesh constantly where is our mind and heart? This is a doctrine that I have seen people take hold of and it's the "evil behind every rock", "blame game" that is played. That will mess with your mind and I've seen the paranoia that accompanies it as sin and law and satan gets the blame. If your mind is so focused on the flesh, yet you do nothing about it because the decision to sin is out of your control - then what role do you leave the Spirit to do a work in you?


I don't see a difference between your first and this post at all. It's saying the same thing.
Ultimately, it is the same. The devil made me do it or the flesh made me do it. Either way it never gets to the meat of what made you really do it... an evil heart.

Libre
Jun 6th 2008, 03:25 PM
That is not what he's saying at all. It's a hard concept to explain, but what he's saying is... a true Christian, bought and cleansed and ransomed by the Blood of Christ, filled with God's Holy Spirit, even though they may commit sin, is kept by the Grace of God from being eternally defiled by that sin. The sins we commit in our flesh we now loathe and abominate. The lusts we once enjoyed make our spirit sick. When we recognise sin it grieves us... because we are being perfected by the Holy Spirit into Christ Jesus.

I can't explain it very well, and I certainly sin. We all do, and yukkerboy has definitely acknowledged that. But that sin is no longer us. We belong to the King.

Does anyone get that?I think this says it very well.

Besides, it's no longer I that lives. It's Christ who lives in me.

Romans 9:1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+8:1&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+8:2&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 7:17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:17&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:18&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:19&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:20&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:21&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:22&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:23&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:24&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body [/URL]of this death? [URL="http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:25&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en"]25 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7&t=kjv&st=1&new=1&l=en#F27) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Which is what is being said by some here.

Pat

ProjectPeter
Jun 6th 2008, 03:28 PM
I think this says it very well.

Besides, it's no longer I that lives. It's Christ who lives in me.

Romans 9:1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+8:1&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+8:2&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 7:17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:17&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:18&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:19&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:20&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:21&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:22&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:23&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:24&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body [/URL]of this death? [URL="http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:25&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en"]25 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7&t=kjv&st=1&new=1&l=en#F27) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Which is what is being said by some here.

Pat
If Christ is living in you... then what power does your flesh have over Christ?

RogerW
Jun 6th 2008, 03:29 PM
You're right, that's not what I meant.

Our responsibility is to war with our flesh daily. To deny the flesh fulfillment of it's lusts and temptations. However, when the flesh succeeds, it is not that we have sinned, but the sin living within our flesh that has sinned.

Yuke

Greetings Yuke,

I understand what you are saying, and you are absolutely right when you say we war against the flesh daily.

Mt 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Romans 6 is a good chapter to reflect on for it teaches us 'he that is dead is freed from sin'. In what sense are we dead to sin? You agree we are not dead to its influence (Ro 7:15, 19), nor would you say we are dead to its presence (Ro 7:21), nor to its effects (Ro 7:24; Ps 51:3). Our Lord taught us to pray, "Forgive us our sins" (1Jo 1:9). What we are dead to is sins penalty and guilt; sin cannot condemn us (Ro 8:33,34). We are dead to sin as master who rules over us; Christ is our Lord. We are dead to sin as a way of life; it is not looked upon as a friend but as our enemy.

Paul shows us that the gospel of justification by faith does not lead to a life of sin, but rather, faith in and a love for Christ are the foundation of and motivation for holiness (2Co 5:14-17). There are two things we should know to be true when we are truly in Christ. (1) 'We are dead indeed to sin.' Our sin is pardoned, paid for and put away. We do not fear condemnation or death on accout of it, nor do we have any fellowship with it, nor shall it be permitted to reign over us any longer. (2) 'We are alive unto God, through our Lord Jesus.' As justified persons we live spiritually in the sight of God, having the righteousness of Christ and eternal life through Him. As sanctified, and being sanctified (who feel the burden of sin and the corruption of the flesh) we love Christ, His Word, His people and His commandments, and walk in the Spirit, not fulfilling the lusts of our flesh. We still have them, and as Ken has said, they proceed from the heart and mind. The human nature is still part of who we are, and we (that is our flesh; i.e. heart and mind) will not be made perfect until we receive our glorified bodies that have been made incorruptible, and immortal.

How can we who have this attitude toward sin actually live in sin? Persons live to sin when they give themselves over to it, when they are determined upon it, when they delight in their sin, and when they offer no real resistance to it. Sin remains in the believer (to his/her dismay and regret), but it does not reign as his/her master. Sin is a struggle; it tries us and troubles us, but does not dominate or control us. Sin is said to be obeyed when we make provisions for it without struggle or opposition. 'Do not continue offering or yielding your bodily members and faculties to sin as tools of wickedness. But offer and yield yourselves to God as thugh you have been raised from the dead to life, and your bodily members to God, presenting them as implements of righteousness.'

Thank God, we have been delivered from the slavery and bondage of sin. This has been a heart work. It is not just a mental acceptance of creeds, but a heart obedience of the gospel of Christ (Ro 7:22-25). The end and result of all sin is death! But now that we are the servants of God and have been set free from the love and dominion of sin, we have the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, faith, peace and (the end result) eternal life!

Many Blessings,
RW

RoadWarrior
Jun 6th 2008, 03:35 PM
That is not what he's saying at all. It's a hard concept to explain, but what he's saying is... a true Christian, bought and cleansed and ransomed by the Blood of Christ, filled with God's Holy Spirit, even though they may commit sin, is kept by the Grace of God from being eternally defiled by that sin. The sins we commit in our flesh we now loathe and abominate. The lusts we once enjoyed make our spirit sick. When we recognise sin it grieves us... because we are being perfected by the Holy Spirit into Christ Jesus.

I can't explain it very well, and I certainly sin. We all do, and yukkerboy has definitely acknowledged that. But that sin is no longer us. We belong to the King.

Does anyone get that?

The difficulty lies in explaining a spiritual truth using human language. Something that sheds a lot of light on this (for me at least) is the story of Jesus washing the feet of the disciples. He told Peter, those who have had a bath don't need to be washed all over again.

But, we've been walking in the world and our feet are dirty. You need to wash your feet every day. In fact, He said we need to wash each other's feet.

Salvation forgiveness is the bath.

Forgiving each other, loving daily relationships with each other, that is where the foot-washing comes in.

Spiritual truth is like a multi-faceted diamond; no one facet is the whole diamond.

Libre
Jun 6th 2008, 04:06 PM
Yeah. What RogerW said. That says it well. And as roadwarrior says, the difficulty lies is trying to explain these things using human language. Paul, probably the most intelligent and educated writer of the NT, goes on for pages trying to put this into words. Indeed, it's easy to get lost in the words and difficult to grasp his meaning.

My belief is that it can't be grasped by the mind, for it is spiritual and must be understood that way. Like when we are saved, we know that we know. We can give scriptures when asked, but they don't really convey what we have seen and what we know.

And a further problem with Christians and sin was addressed briefly earlier. Can't remember who said it, but when we are preoccupied with looking for sin in our lives, and confessing/repenting, we have our eyes and focus on the wrong things.

Worse, we then see sin in our brothers and sister. Forgetting that when the think we stand we should beware lest we too fall. Paul said to think on things that are pure, of good report, etc. And so we should. If we spent our time doing the "do"s, we wouldn't have much time left for the "don't"s.

Pat

RoadWarrior
Jun 6th 2008, 04:35 PM
... Paul said to think on things that are pure, of good report, etc. And so we should. If we spent our time doing the "do"s, we wouldn't have much time left for the "don't"s.

Pat

Good advice Pat. I agree.

It is good for us to discuss these things with each other, and help each other to understand. But then it becomes a sort of "background" information, a reminder tool for the Holy Spirit to use in training/guiding us.

But we must put it in balance, our eyes are not to be focused on these things, but on the pathway before us.

In fine, we know that we sin; we also know that the way to deal with sin in our lives is spelling out in 1 John. Confess, repent, then get up from there and move forward knowing that we are forgiven, cleansed, a child of God, much beloved. :pp

Firstfruits
Jun 6th 2008, 05:46 PM
Good advice Pat. I agree.

It is good for us to discuss these things with each other, and help each other to understand. But then it becomes a sort of "background" information, a reminder tool for the Holy Spirit to use in training/guiding us.

But we must put it in balance, our eyes are not to be focused on these things, but on the pathway before us.

In fine, we know that we sin; we also know that the way to deal with sin in our lives is spelling out in 1 John. Confess, repent, then get up from there and move forward knowing that we are forgiven, cleansed, a child of God, much beloved. :pp

Hi RoadWarrior,

Amen to that.

God Bless!!!

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jun 6th 2008, 10:34 PM
Don't be deceived ... it was in fact you that sinned.

I could go the easy route. I could agree and say, you are right, and Paul is wrong, but I won't do that.

No, when Paul says he is dead to sin, yet he says sin abides in his flesh, then how can he be dead to it?

It's his soul that has been cleansed of sin and his soul that remains pure. Those who abide in Christ (the Christian soul, for the flesh always stands against God and the spiritual) cannot sin.

Yes, I shall side with Paul and John on this one.

Yuke

Colossians 3:17
Jun 8th 2008, 05:02 AM
I could go the easy route. I could agree and say, you are right, and Paul is wrong, but I won't do that.

No, when Paul says he is dead to sin, yet he says sin abides in his flesh, then how can he be dead to it?

It's his soul that has been cleansed of sin and his soul that remains pure. Those who abide in Christ (the Christian soul, for the flesh always stands against God and the spiritual) cannot sin.

Yes, I shall side with Paul and John on this one.

Yuke

So, I (as a Christian) can physically go steal clothes from a store and you would say that I didn't sin?

Hmmm...

Zack702
Jun 8th 2008, 06:44 AM
I consider that I can sin and worse than that I can cause others to sin. And so one must be careful what they do and what they say.

I consider that I know I am not worthy of salvation were it not for mercy (and even still my faith falters, oh lord help me). Because I know my sin not by the scripture but by reason because my mind reasons with my emotions and I know what is wrong and right and in this I seek the acceptance of God.
Perhaps this is a gift I have that others do not in feeling right and wrong. But I consider that deep within our hearts we all know this if we search for it.

If I am good and I go to steal something I can feel my heart tug and my emotions race. I know in my heart it is wrong and I hesitate.
Or if I be wicked and I go to steal something joy fills my heart in knowing I got my reward from the suckers who I stole from.

Either way these emotions are the key to knowing a sin with or without scriptures and laws.

Joe King
Jun 8th 2008, 06:56 AM
This is similar to the OSAS argument.

It's our responsibility to live like Christ and to turn from sin. That's what being born again really means.

Otherwise, now that I know I'm saved, why don't I just go out and rob people and sleep with as many women as I can?

We don't have a free pass. That would be too easy. Plus, if you REALLY LOVE GOD and JESUS CHRIST, you will try to please them in everything that you do.

Firstfruits
Jun 8th 2008, 11:06 AM
This is similar to the OSAS argument.

It's our responsibility to live like Christ and to turn from sin. That's what being born again really means.

Otherwise, now that I know I'm saved, why don't I just go out and rob people and sleep with as many women as I can?

We don't have a free pass. That would be too easy. Plus, if you REALLY LOVE GOD and JESUS CHRIST, you will try to please them in everything that you do.

Amen!!! This is like the OSAS discussion.

Firstfruits

Yukerboy
Jun 9th 2008, 03:36 AM
So, I (as a Christian) can physically go steal clothes from a store and you would say that I didn't sin?

Hmmm...

Yes. If you are truly saved and you do that, it wasn't you, but the sin that abides in your flesh.

If you are saved, your spirit will war against the flesh when it desires to "steal clothes from a store". Sometimes the flesh wins, sometimes you win. However, as you mature in Christ and grow strong in the Spirit, you will have more and more victories against the flesh.


I consider that I know I am not worthy of salvation were it not for mercy (and even still my faith falters, oh lord help me). Because I know my sin not by the scripture but by reason because my mind reasons with my emotions and I know what is wrong and right and in this I seek the acceptance of God.

Zack, this is EXACTLY what I feel Paul is talking about!

Paul states the good he wants to do, he does not do, but the sin he does not want to do, that he does. In your "old self" you wanted to do the sin. When your spirit has been cleansed by the blood of Christ, you no longer want to do sin....but your flesh still does, which is why the flesh, with sin abiding in it, cannot inherit the kingdom of God.


This is similar to the OSAS argument.

It's our responsibility to live like Christ and to turn from sin. That's what being born again really means.

Otherwise, now that I know I'm saved, why don't I just go out and rob people and sleep with as many women as I can?

We don't have a free pass. That would be too easy. Plus, if you REALLY LOVE GOD and JESUS CHRIST, you will try to please them in everything that you do.

Kinda sorta like the OSAS arguement, but not quite.

You see, a lot of OSAS believers (not all) also believe you have a license to sin. They believe you can go on sinning willfully and still be saved.

I am saying that once you are saved, you have no desire to sin, except for the sin that abides in your flesh. It is because you (your spirit/soul/id) have died to sin.

The ones who believe that this would be a license to do as we wish (sin) means that the old nature did not die, meaning you are not dead to sin.


Plus, if you REALLY LOVE GOD and JESUS CHRIST, you will try to please them in everything that you do.

:agree: Amen!

threebigrocks
Jun 9th 2008, 04:23 PM
Yes. If you are truly saved and you do that, it wasn't you, but the sin that abides in your flesh.

This is just plain creepy. If you are caught stealing those clothes you would have a hard time explaining your way out of jail on shoplifting charges with that one, especially if you lifted enough to constitute a felony.


If you are saved, your spirit will war against the flesh when it desires to "steal clothes from a store". Sometimes the flesh wins, sometimes you win. However, as you mature in Christ and grow strong in the Spirit, you will have more and more victories against the flesh.

That I can agree with, but we are still responsible for our sin and wrongdoing.




Paul states the good he wants to do, he does not do, but the sin he does not want to do, that he does. In your "old self" you wanted to do the sin. When your spirit has been cleansed by the blood of Christ, you no longer want to do sin....but your flesh still does, which is why the flesh, with sin abiding in it, cannot inherit the kingdom of God.


And that is why all flesh is appointed to die once. That is why dead men don't sin, that is why we do nothing of our own but because of Christ's righteousness and His power, it's not of our own to possess in this world.





You see, a lot of OSAS believers (not all) also believe you have a license to sin. They believe you can go on sinning willfully and still be saved.

I am saying that once you are saved, you have no desire to sin, except for the sin that abides in your flesh. It is because you (your spirit/soul/id) have died to sin.

The ones who believe that this would be a license to do as we wish (sin) means that the old nature did not die, meaning you are not dead to sin.


So how many who are of Christ and fighting to win over the flesh are saved? According to you - none. Our desire of the flesh lives on, we will always need to continue the fight until we are absent from the flesh. We can grow stronger and overcome much, but there will always be a reason to remain focused on Christ. Our salvation is not yet complete, and until it is we need to persevere.



:agree: Amen!


Even when doing things which please the Lord, there is still room to do that which is not pleasing. We are to strive to be holy as He is holy. If there wasn't effort involved on our part to run the race, then why would we need Christ?

My heart's Desire
Jun 9th 2008, 06:19 PM
Yes. If you are truly saved and you do that, it wasn't you, but the sin that abides in your flesh.

If you are saved, your spirit will war against the flesh when it desires to "steal clothes from a store". Sometimes the flesh wins, sometimes you win. However, as you mature in Christ and grow strong in the Spirit, you will have more and more victories against the flesh.



Zack, this is EXACTLY what I feel Paul is talking about!

Paul states the good he wants to do, he does not do, but the sin he does not want to do, that he does. In your "old self" you wanted to do the sin. When your spirit has been cleansed by the blood of Christ, you no longer want to do sin....but your flesh still does, which is why the flesh, with sin abiding in it, cannot inherit the kingdom of God.



Kinda sorta like the OSAS arguement, but not quite.

You see, a lot of OSAS believers (not all) also believe you have a license to sin. They believe you can go on sinning willfully and still be saved.

I am saying that once you are saved, you have no desire to sin, except for the sin that abides in your flesh. It is because you (your spirit/soul/id) have died to sin.

The ones who believe that this would be a license to do as we wish (sin) means that the old nature did not die, meaning you are not dead to sin.



:agree: Amen!
Which is exactly why we get a new body, new flesh when resurrected. And is why at death the spirit is separated from the body.
The old flesh (body) still can sin.
It annoys me that everyone claims that those of us who believe once saved always saved means we actually go around saying "don't worry, just sin all you like and you are still saved".
In the flesh (body) you can and will still sin and sometimes willfully. You do not lose salvation for your life is hid in Christ as far as God the Father sees us when we believe. So when you sin, hid in Christ as you are do you think God sees the sin or does He see Christ?
Anything added to Faith to be saved or to stay saved is adding to the Work of Christ which as already been completed.

Don't get me on my soapbox now. PP will be in here!. ;) in a flash! God Bless

Libre
Jun 9th 2008, 06:28 PM
Just a question, for threebigrocks. You said, "If there wasn't effort involved on our part to run the race, then why would we need Christ?"

I don't understand what you mean. We run the race, but with Him, and because He gives us the power in the Holy Spirit to do it. We could never do it on our own, which means we need Him.

Pat

threebigrocks
Jun 9th 2008, 08:20 PM
Man, I am on a roll today for words not quite saying to you guys what is so very clear in my head.

threebigrocks
Jun 9th 2008, 08:23 PM
Which is exactly why we get a new body, new flesh when resurrected. And is why at death the spirit is separated from the body.
The old flesh (body) still can sin.
It annoys me that everyone claims that those of us who believe once saved always saved means we actually go around saying "don't worry, just sin all you like and you are still saved".
In the flesh (body) you can and will still sin and sometimes willfully. You do not lose salvation for your life is hid in Christ as far as God the Father sees us when we believe. So when you sin, hid in Christ as you are do you think God sees the sin or does He see Christ?
Anything added to Faith to be saved or to stay saved is adding to the Work of Christ which as already been completed.

Don't get me on my soapbox now. PP will be in here!. ;) in a flash! God Bless

Why would God place a stand on it's own righteous child of His back into a fleshy body after He has made it clean come judgement time? We will receive heavenly/spiritual bodies. Now, I have no clue what that is like, although humans in the flesh were fashioned after the image of God as it says in Genesis.

threebigrocks
Jun 9th 2008, 08:24 PM
Just a question, for threebigrocks. You said, "If there wasn't effort involved on our part to run the race, then why would we need Christ?"

I don't understand what you mean. We run the race, but with Him, and because He gives us the power in the Holy Spirit to do it. We could never do it on our own, which means we need Him.

Pat

Yes, when we choose to run. ;)

Yukerboy
Jun 9th 2008, 10:58 PM
So how many who are of Christ and fighting to win over the flesh are saved? According to you - none.

I don't see where you got that from what I've said. All of those who are in Christ are saved.


Our desire of the flesh lives on, we will always need to continue the fight until we are absent from the flesh. We can grow stronger and overcome much, but there will always be a reason to remain focused on Christ. Our salvation is not yet complete, and until it is we need to persevere.


Well, this will be where I make up for where I annoyed the OSAS. Our salvation is complete and all those who abide in Christ will persevere. How does one not persevere? If the answer is through sin, those who abide in Christ cannot sin and are dead to sin (Paul and John's words, not mine)

Yuke

Libre
Jun 10th 2008, 12:07 AM
Thankfully, whether we believe OSAS or not; whether we daily examine ourselves and repent of sin, or not; and whether we try to be holy, or not, we are still His. He meets us in our faith. We are not to let what we do in freedom be a stone of stumbling for another. We can express our views, of course. But we are not to try to persuade another to walk our walk, or that they are dead wrong and we are oh so right.

This is a very mature board and I don't see those attitudes here. This place is a breath of fresh air as far as that goes.

Carry on,

Pat

Buzzword
Jun 10th 2008, 12:18 AM
I treat it in terms of a pattern of behavior.

Before we accept Christ, our pattern of behavior is selfish, sinful.
We occasionally do things that are GOOD while in the selfish pattern, but the pattern continues unabated.

Similarly, after accepting Christ, we enter into a selfLESS pattern of behavior (our focus being God and others).
If we sin while in this pattern, we have not automatically broken the pattern of behavior.
It is only when we ABANDON the Christlike pattern of behavior that we are back where we started.

For me, this explains why a man who has led a sinful life and commits to Christ in his last hours is accepted by God after death: he has entered the selfless pattern of behavior (albeit late in life).

Same goes for a man who has led a selfless life, but in his final moments curses God due to bodily pain. In that moment he has not abandoned the selfless pattern of behavior, and therefore God will not reject him after death.


I had a professor about a year ago who treated Heaven and hell using the same language of patterns of behavior.

Heaven is merely the natural conclusion to a life lived selflessly.
Imagine a huge community of people all living totally for God and each other.
Heavenly, no? (If not, add in God's presence and it becomes so)

Hell is merely the natural conclusion to a life lived selfishly.
Selfishness taken to its conclusion is what we see in the worst criminals here on earth. We describe those people as demonic, and a community of such people would be hellish.


Added comment:
Okay, I've only been on the board a day. What does OSAS mean?

Libre
Jun 10th 2008, 12:30 AM
Noooooo - not two penguins?

OSAS means Once Saved, Always Saved. Eternal security. In reformed circles, it is called sovereign and irresistible grace.

As opposed to losing your salvation.

Welcome,
Pat

threebigrocks
Jun 10th 2008, 03:07 AM
I don't see where you got that from what I've said. All of those who are in Christ are saved.

Pretty much that is the conclusion I have been able to draw from what you have said.




Well, this will be where I make up for where I annoyed the OSAS. Our salvation is complete and all those who abide in Christ will persevere. How does one not persevere? If the answer is through sin, those who abide in Christ cannot sin and are dead to sin (Paul and John's words, not mine)

Yuke

Scripture please. I do not see where our salvation is yet complete.

My heart's Desire
Jun 10th 2008, 04:21 AM
That I can agree with, but we are still responsible for our sin and wrongdoing.

And that is why all flesh is appointed to die once. That is why dead men don't sin, that is why we do nothing of our own but because of Christ's righteousness and His power, it's not of our own to possess in this world.
So how many who are of Christ and fighting to win over the flesh are saved? According to you - none. Our desire of the flesh lives on, we will always need to continue the fight until we are absent from the flesh. We can grow stronger and overcome much, but there will always be a reason to remain focused on Christ. Our salvation is not yet complete, and until it is we need to persevere.
Even when doing things which please the Lord, there is still room to do that which is not pleasing. We are to strive to be holy as He is holy. If there wasn't effort involved on our part to run the race, then why would we need Christ?

Actually, I think you had a pretty good post. But....the Word didn't say believe on the Lord Jesus and presevere and you shall be saved. It says only believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.
I'm not sure how you worded the we are responsible for our sin part. Basicly this is true and that's why we needed Christ to begin with. We are held accountable but with no way to pay the account we owed, so Jesus paid it all.
As far as our salvation not being complete yet, I believe it is and yet still will be complete in the end. We are saved, being saved and will be saved since Christ finished the work.
We should be thoughtful about sin as it breaks fellowship with God, but not our position in His house.
And indeed there is a race to run but it is not a race in order to be saved. Certainly, Paul believed in running the race.
Certainly we should do what is pleasing to Him. Not to be saved but because He did save us. And yes, focusing on Jesus is the key to everything. If I keep my eyes off me and my eyes on Him, the overcoming does get easier. Especially overcoming the desire to focus on myself and look to Him ALONE for all of my salvation, not just part of it.

threebigrocks
Jun 10th 2008, 02:48 PM
Actually, I think you had a pretty good post. But....the Word didn't say believe on the Lord Jesus and presevere and you shall be saved. It says only believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.

Romans 10


8But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


If you hold something in your heart, believing with all you have in it, what is the natural result? Action! We are told to count the costs of that belief, that persecution and trial will come to us even more so than with Christ.

Revelation 2


18"And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:
19'I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first.


We need to persevere so that we are not swayed. Perseverance in the faith builds a Godly character in us and is pleasing to God.


I'm not sure how you worded the we are responsible for our sin part.

Luke 17



3"Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4"And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him."



Matthew 6


12'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13'And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]'
14"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.



If forgiveness is our burden, and we will only be forgiven by the Father as we extend forgiveness, are we not responsible for our sin we do?

We are held accountable but with no way to pay the account we owed, so Jesus paid it all.

2 Corinthians 5



16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,



Christ paid the debt of the old man and makes us new. You are very correct there! But how we walk out our faith from that point on, with all the possible twists, turns and bumps and opportunity to fall still being in the flesh - that is up to us to avoid it and if we do ask forgiveness.


As far as our salvation not being complete yet, I believe it is and yet still will be complete in the end. We are saved, being saved and will be saved since Christ finished the work.

Do you hope have what you have now or for what is to come?

Romans 5



3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.



Romans 8


23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.




We should be thoughtful about sin as it breaks fellowship with God, but not our position in His house.


If someone was not a friend any longer, would you still have them over? Best thing is - forgiveness asked for is granted with God!


If I keep my eyes off me and my eyes on Him, the overcoming does get easier. Especially overcoming the desire to focus on myself and look to Him ALONE for all of my salvation, not just part of it.

Agreed! Maturity in faith is a process and comes by keeping that focus, keep running, have perseverance. ;)

My heart's Desire
Jun 10th 2008, 05:07 PM
Romans 10


If you hold something in your heart, believing with all you have in it, what is the natural result? Action! We are told to count the costs of that belief, that persecution and trial will come to us even more so than with Christ.

Revelation 2


We need to persevere so that we are not swayed. Perseverance in the faith builds a Godly character in us and is pleasing to God.



Luke 17



Matthew 6


If forgiveness is our burden, and we will only be forgiven by the Father as we extend forgiveness, are we not responsible for our sin we do?


2 Corinthians 5



Christ paid the debt of the old man and makes us new. You are very correct there! But how we walk out our faith from that point on, with all the possible twists, turns and bumps and opportunity to fall still being in the flesh - that is up to us to avoid it and if we do ask forgiveness.



Do you hope have what you have now or for what is to come?

Romans 5



Romans 8



If someone was not a friend any longer, would you still have them over? Best thing is - forgiveness asked for is granted with God!



Agreed! Maturity in faith is a process and comes by keeping that focus, keep running, have perseverance. ;)
True all true. True faith hopes for and KNOWS it has been completed and will be complete by Christ, not us. Anything less is not having the faith the Christ has done all and all are complete in Him.

threebigrocks
Jun 10th 2008, 05:11 PM
True all true. True faith hopes for and KNOWS it has been completed and will be complete by Christ, not us. Anything less is not having the faith the Christ has done all and all are complete in Him.

And what of what we have now is all by faith which we cannot see, why hope for what we already have, is a promise for today or for later? Is an inheritance for what we have now, or does ones flesh need to die in order for it to be in effect? Our salvation is not complete until we are in heaven.

My heart's Desire
Jun 10th 2008, 06:16 PM
Our salvation is not complete until we are in heaven. Again this is true, but who are we expecting to complete it, us or the Lord Jesus?

threebigrocks
Jun 10th 2008, 06:19 PM
Again this is true, but who are we expecting to complete it, us or the Lord Jesus?

He's already done what it takes for us to have Spirit as a depost, to give us hope, give promise for what is to come, to bestow an inheritance to be had. He's done all that. We accept or not - through FAITH - which will because of eventuality after we die be known fully.

Where we are - it's about the time between we accept and we die that we can deal with. Christ's work was not complete until he died and rose again. Same for us, we must die to have eternal salvation. This world is not eternal and will one day be gone. Temporal vs. eternal.

1of7000
Jun 10th 2008, 08:36 PM
yes, but it don't stick.

My heart's Desire
Jun 10th 2008, 10:56 PM
He's already done what it takes for us to have Spirit as a depost, to give us hope, give promise for what is to come, to bestow an inheritance to be had. He's done all that. We accept or not - through FAITH - which will because of eventuality after we die be known fully.

Where we are - it's about the time between we accept and we die that we can deal with. Christ's work was not complete until he died and rose again. Same for us, we must die to have eternal salvation. This world is not eternal and will one day be gone. Temporal vs. eternal.
Yes, Praise the Lord, and after I die I already have eternal life because God said so!

threebigrocks
Jun 10th 2008, 11:07 PM
yes, but it don't stick.

What don't stick?

threebigrocks
Jun 10th 2008, 11:09 PM
Yes, Praise the Lord, and after I die I already have eternal life because God said so!

After you die you already have life. :confused If you are typing, isn't "already" and "die" a sort of contradiction of terms?

1of7000
Jun 10th 2008, 11:22 PM
What don't stick?

the sin...:bounce:

threebigrocks
Jun 10th 2008, 11:32 PM
the sin...:bounce:

:D The ability to ask forgiveness is a powerful thing! To know it is for heartfelt asking - even bigger!

Colossians 3:17
Jun 11th 2008, 03:24 AM
Yes. If you are truly saved and you do that, it wasn't you, but the sin that abides in your flesh.

If you are saved, your spirit will war against the flesh when it desires to "steal clothes from a store". Sometimes the flesh wins, sometimes you win. However, as you mature in Christ and grow strong in the Spirit, you will have more and more victories against the flesh.

That is just a technicality. There is no difference.

Whether my soul did it or the sinful spirit in me, I STILL SINNED! I am the one who did it, and I am the one who has to own up to it.

My heart's Desire
Jun 11th 2008, 03:48 AM
After you die you already have life. :confused If you are typing, isn't "already" and "die" a sort of contradiction of terms?
Maybe that didn't sound right. Everyone has eternal life somewhere after their physical life here is over.
I meant after my physical life in the flesh, here is over, I have eternal life with God. Saved, safe and sound, because the Lord Jesus saved me when I believed in Him.

threebigrocks
Jun 11th 2008, 01:08 PM
;)

Hebrews 8



15For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
16For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

22And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Libre
Jun 11th 2008, 02:43 PM
I've always read Heb. 8 as meaning that yes, we are saved now, as scripture states in many places. And yes, He is coming again to accomplish our final salvation - that of the resurrection to eternal life. But we are saved now. And we are being saved, for He ever lives making the intercession for us.

He keeps the covenant, not we. We are in Him and receive the benefits and promises He secured. That's why the new covenant was needed. Men couldn't keep their promise to God. Now by faith we have better promises from God and a better/final covenant.

What version are you using 3big?

Hebrews 9:15-22 (KJV) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.Here we see that people (as meaning we) don't have to die for this covenant to be in effect. In general, people die before their will is valid, but we see, if we read both chapter 8 and 9, that it is the testator, who is Jesus, who died. The NT is in effect now, for us, present reality and future consummation.

Pat

My heart's Desire
Jun 11th 2008, 06:00 PM
I love that verse And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
Why? Because Christ dealt with my sins once and for all on the Cross and I am eagerly waiting for Him and have no fear of judgement. If my sins have been taken care of I am free to await His return with Joy! Those who are not saved have every reason to dread His return for they have fear of judgement.

My heart's Desire
Jun 11th 2008, 06:08 PM
Here we see that people (as meaning we) don't have to die for this covenant to be in effect. In general, people die before their will is valid, but we see, if we read both chapter 8 and 9, that it is the testator, who is Jesus, who died. The NT is in effect now, for us, present reality and future consummation.

Pat
Not only that the Holy Spirit is not only a deposit but we are SEALED by Him. He is also the guanantee!

Libre
Jun 11th 2008, 06:39 PM
2Co 1:22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2co+1:22&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2Co 5:5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2co+5:5&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Definition: an earnest

money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid

:pp

Pat

Jude1:21
Jun 11th 2008, 07:16 PM
Hi Everyone.
We are all born into sin because we are imperfect with desires and lusts that cause us to sin.
The Holy Spirit convicts us of that sin when we make Jesus, Lord and Master over our lives when we are born again.
Jesus Christ paid for our sin debt and I believe as a Christian we should strive to live the life that He commands us, in the Word.
This can prove difficult because we were given a free will by our Lord.
I believe that a Christian can still face the danger of backsliding into sin again.We need to everyday check ourselves to ensure that we are walking in righteousness.
In faith Jude

Christiana
Jun 11th 2008, 07:35 PM
Alright, this is still a semi-new train of thought for me, so bear with me as I explain why a Christian cannot sin.

John says in 1 John 3:9 that whoever is born of God cannot sin. Cannot implies inability. Christians are UNABLE to sin.

I struggled with this verse. I kept saying I know I sin, so this verse must be wrong, then I felt that God opened my eyes.

First, I looked for the definition of sin.

1 John 3:4 "...sin is transgression of the law."

Fair enough. Breaking the law is sin. I know the law, I know I broke it, therefore I still sin. So either I am not born of God or 1 John 3:9 is wrong, and it even seems that John contradicts himself earlier when he said (1 John 1:8) "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

Then I was led to:

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

If all things are lawful, then there can be no transgression. Where there is no transgression, there is no sin. Yet, John still stated we deceive ourselves if we say we have no sin.

Paul goes even further as threebigrocks points out to clarify this.

Romasn 7:16-20 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Paul says it is no longer you who sins, but the sin that dwells in you that commits it. Why does he say that?

1 Corinthians 6:11 "...you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

God washed you of all sin, you were washed, sanctified, and justified (past tense) in one fell swoop.

Now what about the other verses brought up by most posters here?

Hebrews 10:26-28

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins"

If no sacrifice remains, then the person who sins willfully is not born of God. If a sacrifice remains, then he did not sin willfully. As Paul states, "for I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not." Being born of God, the willing is present, but the doing of good is not.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

To him, the person that knows to do good, it IS sin. To God, no law has been transgressed. Paul even goes on to state that (Romans 4:15) "...where there is no law there is no transgression." and (Romans 6:14) "...you are not under law, but under grace." and then (Galatians 5:18) "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law."

Now, this is where we talk about the spirit and the flesh. A Christian's responsibility is to control the sin the flesh has abiding within it. The flesh will continue to sin and your soul must strive daily against the flesh. But you, your soul, your id, cannot sin.

Yuke

Yes, I understand this. I substitute spirit for soul though.

I think the misunderstanding here is that we are covered, found blameless, under grace & a lot of believers do not understand grace. To accept Jesus as our Savior would mean we believe in all that He can do & has done. We, in our flesh & as being carnally minded, do sin but our spirit remains under grace, covered by the blood of the Lamb & found spotless from sin.

We should march on & conquer those sins that the Lord reveals to us, within ourselves. We can only do this through Christ as our power, our strength & out of our desire to seek His will, not ours.

Great thread. God bless!:hug:

My heart's Desire
Jun 12th 2008, 01:06 AM
Yes, we can sin technically, yes we could possible lose our closeness to the Lord, but we cannot become unsaved! I think doing so is almost saying that someone can't keep a promise? I believe God keeps His promises.

Libre
Jun 12th 2008, 02:39 AM
If God seems far away, guess who moved?

P

Ta-An
Jun 12th 2008, 12:25 PM
WOW!!!
Since my last post in this thread it ran away with pages of answers,,,,, and I have to shamefully admit I am not going to read through all the new answers.... but I was mulling this question over and over in my head.... Can Christians sin???? :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

What/Who is a Christian :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

and then this morning I got a sample answer ;)

How can we as Christians stay away from sinning :hmm:
..... and Ps119 answers this for me so nicely:
Psalm 119:9Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.

11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

12 Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.

How do we as Christians walk a clean sinless walk??
By taking heed to the Word of G_d.... How??

By meditating on Scripture, His Word :idea:
When G_d's law is written on our hearts, when you hide His Word in your heart.... it is so much easier to walk on the straight and narrow :idea:
When you mind is renewed daily by His Word... you think on these thing in Phil 4:8

Phil 4:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

And then when temptation comes knocking on your door, you check against the checklist of what is written on your heart..... and then it is easier to be obedient... and not sin .

:hug:

faithfulfriend
Jun 12th 2008, 01:23 PM
WOW!!!
Since my last post in this thread it ran away with pages of answers,,,,, and I have to shamefully admit I am not going to read through all the new answers.... but I was mulling this question over and over in my head.... Can Christians sin???? :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

What/Who is a Christian :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

and then this morning I got a sample answer ;)

How can we as Christians stay away from sinning :hmm:
..... and Ps119 answers this for me so nicely:
Psalm 119:9Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.

11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

12 Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.

How do we as Christians walk a clean sinless walk??
By taking heed to the Word of G_d.... How??

By meditating on Scripture, His Word :idea:
When G_d's law is written on our hearts, when you hide His Word in your heart.... it is so much easier to walk on the straight and narrow :idea:
When you mind is renewed daily by His Word... you think on these thing in Phil 4:8

Phil 4:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

And then when temptation comes knocking on your door, you check against the checklist of what is written on your heart..... and then it is easier to be obedient... and not sin .

:hug:

We aren't robots, we have the ability to choose right or wrong. We can be victorious over any and all temptations. You don't have to give into sin.

Ps 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling (sinning), and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

threebigrocks
Jun 12th 2008, 02:49 PM
2Co 1:22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2co+1:22&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2Co 5:5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2co+5:5&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.



Definition: an earnest
money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid
:pp

Pat

Full amount will subsequently be paid. Now we only have in part now through faith and in Spirit. What we have now is only a shadow of what is in heaven. Then, when the remainder is paid we will know fully! Now that makes me desire to keep my feet a runnin' on the right path!


WOW!!!
Since my last post in this thread it ran away with pages of answers,,,,, and I have to shamefully admit I am not going to read through all the new answers.... but I was mulling this question over and over in my head.... Can Christians sin???? :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

What/Who is a Christian :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

and then this morning I got a sample answer ;)

How can we as Christians stay away from sinning :hmm:
..... and Ps119 answers this for me so nicely:
Psalm 119:9Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.

11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

12 Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.

How do we as Christians walk a clean sinless walk??
By taking heed to the Word of G_d.... How??

By meditating on Scripture, His Word :idea:
When G_d's law is written on our hearts, when you hide His Word in your heart.... it is so much easier to walk on the straight and narrow :idea:
When you mind is renewed daily by His Word... you think on these thing in Phil 4:8

Phil 4:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

And then when temptation comes knocking on your door, you check against the checklist of what is written on your heart..... and then it is easier to be obedient... and not sin .

:hug:

Indeed! What is in our heart will be known in our actions. If we aren't filling up with the knowledge of Christ as you said (and to add of the Spirit) something else will fill us.

Temptation is present, and it will come knocking. The knowledge we hold and where it originated (heaven or the flesh), what our heart leads us to even when we react in a split second will be known.

What we have all be blessed with now is pretty incredible, the changing of our hearts, renewing of our minds - what it will be like when we stand before Him - unfathomable!

Christiana
Jun 12th 2008, 03:02 PM
We aren't robots, we have the ability to choose right or wrong. We can be victorious over any and all temptations. You don't have to give into sin.

Ps 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling (sinning), and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

I posted these scriptures on another thread but feel led to post them here as well.

Phil 3 (NASB)

12. Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

13. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14. I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;
16. however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained. 17. Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.

In verse 15, Paul reveals that some have come in to perfection before death.

So do Christian's still sin? Evidently, His blood covers it all. As true followers of Christ, we will press on in following His examples & those of our brethren in Christ.:pray: We may stumble, we may make mistakes but with a sincere, repenting heart, we are under His grace. The gospel message is simple. We are in Christ when we solidly believe & live for Him.

God bless.

My heart's Desire
Jun 13th 2008, 05:18 AM
Since our spirit is saved, the redemption of our body will complete the process!

threebigrocks
Jun 13th 2008, 02:57 PM
Since our spirit is saved, the redemption of our body will complete the process!

Precisely! Body and spirit together make the soul! We cannot have the completion of our faith until both are reconciled to God. That cannot happen in sinful flesh which is appointed to die once and our spirit goes onto eternity. It is when we pass on from this world, when we can be present with the Lord when absent from the body in a new spiritual body. Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom!

immortality
Jun 13th 2008, 10:34 PM
christians sin every day. john said that if we say we are without sin, then we are lying and/or deceived:

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (john 1:8)

so yes, christians sin, and sometimes they can even fall into heinous sin, but make no mistake about it - they cannot stay there! if the person truly belongs to god, the holy spirit will convict them of that sin. god will even take extraordinary disciplinary measures to ensure this.

however, i don't think we should confuse this with "carnal christianity". when someone is truly born again, they are a new creature. we cannot say we are "new creatures", who are being regenerated and sanctified, and then live in constant carnality. those who do are probably not even saved.

Yukerboy
Jun 14th 2008, 01:52 PM
Scripture please. I do not see where our salvation is yet complete.

I didn't want to go there, but I agree with you on this. What do we gain salvation from? I believe it is the pit of fire at the last judgment. Therefore, saved should be considered in a future tense. It is an action that God takes in the future.

Now, with that said, most of us (me included) refer to being saved as one who abides in Christ. Now, our abiding in Christ, glorification, sanctification, and cleansing all have happened. This has all bee in one fell swoop. As Paul told the Corinthians about who will and will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven, he told them that the unrighteous would not. He then told those that abided in Christ that while they were unrighteous, they were now cleansed, justified, and sanctified and all of this is past tense, having been done once by the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

So, while I agree our "salvation" is not yet complete, our cleansing, justification, and sanctification have been completed.


christians sin every day. john said that if we say we are without sin, then we are lying and/or deceived:


John was right, your opinion before that may not be. We have sin abiding in our flesh. We cannot be without sin in this flesh. However, we (our id/soul/spirit) has been cleansed from all unrighteousness and as John states later in the same book you speak of, one who is born of God, one who abides in Christ cannot sin. Cannot means inability. Cannot means impossible to. It is not "should not". John very clearly used cannot.


when someone is truly born again, they are a new creature. we cannot say we are "new creatures", who are being regenerated and sanctified, and then live in constant carnality. those who do are probably not even saved.


I agree with all this except replace probably with certainly.


Body and spirit together make the soul!

Christ differentiated between the two. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

The soul and the flesh are seperate. It is the soul that is cleansed, not the flesh. The flesh has sin abiding in it, the soul of one who is born of God does not.

Yuke

Libre
Jun 14th 2008, 04:17 PM
Good post there, happy feet.

1 1ohn 1:5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+1:5&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+1:6&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+1:7&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+1:8&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+1:9&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+1:10&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


There is set of parallels in this passage. If we say we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie. If we walk in the light (in Him) His blood cleanses us (it is continual because it is the perfect and eternal offering). If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar.


1 John 2:1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+2:1&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+2:2&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+2:3&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+2:4&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+2:5&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+2:6&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+2:7&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. 8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+2:8&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. 9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+2:9&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+2:10&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+2:11&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+2:12&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.


Remember, although John was writing to the church, many were untaught, and some probably not even saved, just like today's churches. While there was great persecution then, and it would seem only a believer would want to be a part of a church, there were lulls in the troubles, and there were benefits to being part of that body. Also, I'm sure they had their own version of "each one bring one".

So, John had to teach them. And also, what Yuker said.

Pat

RogerW
Jun 14th 2008, 10:33 PM
I didn't want to go there, but I agree with you on this. What do we gain salvation from? I believe it is the pit of fire at the last judgment. Therefore, saved should be considered in a future tense. It is an action that God takes in the future.

Now, with that said, most of us (me included) refer to being saved as one who abides in Christ. Now, our abiding in Christ, glorification, sanctification, and cleansing all have happened. This has all bee in one fell swoop. As Paul told the Corinthians about who will and will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven, he told them that the unrighteous would not. He then told those that abided in Christ that while they were unrighteous, they were now cleansed, justified, and sanctified and all of this is past tense, having been done once by the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

So, while I agree our "salvation" is not yet complete, our cleansing, justification, and sanctification have been completed.

John was right, your opinion before that may not be. We have sin abiding in our flesh. We cannot be without sin in this flesh. However, we (our id/soul/spirit) has been cleansed from all unrighteousness and as John states later in the same book you speak of, one who is born of God, one who abides in Christ cannot sin. Cannot means inability. Cannot means impossible to. It is not "should not". John very clearly used cannot.

I agree with all this except replace probably with certainly.

Christ differentiated between the two. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

The soul and the flesh are seperate. It is the soul that is cleansed, not the flesh. The flesh has sin abiding in it, the soul of one who is born of God does not.

Yuke

Greetings Yuke,

When we were dead in trespasses and sins, did we not sin? Just as being "dead in sin" does not mean we could not sin, neither does being "dead to sin" mean we cannot sin.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Being dead in both circumstances is speaking of our spiritual state. When we were dead in our sins means we had no spiritual life, and apart from Christ every sin we commit was unto death. Once we have been made alive in Christ, we are no longer under this death sentence. When Paul says we are "dead to sin" he does not mean that we cannot sin, but that we have been baptized into Christ's death Spiritually, and been raised up from the dead (spiritually) by the glory of the Father (Ro 6:4). Now that we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be, not we already are, but shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection (bodily perfect) (Ro 6:5).

We have been crucified (spiritually) with Him, so we are no longer "dead in sins". We have been made free spiritually from the bondage (death) that sin held us in.

Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

What does John mean when he tells us that when we are born of God we cannot commit sin? John explains, he says, "His seed remains in us". This is the spiritual Seed that has freed us from the bondage of sin, which brings death. So every sin we commit after salvation cannot bring us again into bondage because Christ is our Advocate with the Father, because we have been buried with Him when He took all our sins upon Himself. So how can the one who has His Seed in him commit sin? We cannot, not that we cannot physically, but because the Seed living in us redeemed (paid for them) our sins when He redeemed us.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This does not mean we can no longer commit sin, or that we can commit sin, knowing that Christ has redeemed us. That would make John contradict himself when he says "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves." It means that every sin we commit in the flesh is accounted unto Christ, and His sacrifice has made us free from every sin that held us in bondage of death. Since there is no sin in Him, and He has taken away our sins, when His Seed is in us we have no sin; i.e. we cannot commit sin that will ever bring us into bondage of death or separate us from the Lord.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Ro 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Many Blessings,
RW