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cheekycritter
Jun 4th 2008, 10:29 PM
Hi I m a Theology Student currently at University studying in particular Christianity.
When I came to University I was, what I consider agnostic I would challenge llightly Christianity from science mainly. Through my degree course however it has become so clear Christianity is not correct. For the first time in my life I can say 99.99 percent sure it isn't true.

This isn't something I pleased about in the slightest.

Please read my arugment and tell me how there is possibly an explanation to this I would say its the biggest challenge to Christianity I know of :
I will make this easy for all types of people to read.

Very briefly Christianity emerged from the "hellenistic" part of history. Basically a time people rejected old Gods like Zeus and believed in magic/miracle/souls/new science theories. Also new religions emerged:

One religion used and very much a big part of the society Jesus and his followers would have lived in was the Religion of Isis and her Son Horus
This is one of the key points:
This religion was invented my Pharaohs in Egypt and is well documented. The Pharaohs, in simple terms, invented this myth saying the Pharaoh was linked to Horus and the mother Isis. This was so the myth would enforce the power of the Pharaoh and make him have more standing in his power.

This myth was adapted by the "hellenistic period" again the society the Bible was written. As a main religion they got rid of the Pharaoh aspect and simply adapted very slightly. This religion and worshiped both Horus and Isis.

About Horus
Born of a Virgin
Only Son of God
Born of a stable/or cave
3 wise men
a Special star linked to him
Baptized in river, Baptist died soon after
12 Disciples
Performed Miracles
Tempted by Devil
Died on cross next to two thief's
In a tomb
Resurrected


Now if I hadn't said Horus at the top you would have all believed this to be about Jesus.
The story of Horus was around 1000+ years before Jesus'. It is clear the gospel writers, either invented Jesus totally, or what I think is more likely simple took a "magician"/popular man of the time and turned him into the centre of their new cult. This cult copied a common myth to make it more popular to new converts. They could relate to it better and more likely to follow.
Also within the book of Horus
I am Horus who stepeth onward through eternity...Eternity and everlastingness is my name."
Bible
Book Of John "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today and forever."

My argument is clear. Jesus and the whole central point to Christianity is a myth that just evolved over time. The problem is not many people know about this it isn't common knowledge. This takes a way Jesus' message and uniqueness. Christianity is worshiping a traceable invention of Pharaohs, it is a myth.

I find many agnostics try to argue from science and argue from the Bible itself. But this is the argument that counts as the others are too debatable. Of course Christianity evolved and had other aspects that it was based on. The gospel writers did write with Jewish and Early Church ideas that were unique. But the point is while they wrote about their own ideas within the gospel they are simply using a myth to start the cult so their ideas would be listened to. Not to mention the fact they also wrote 70 odd years after Jesus died with sources simply based on word of mouth.

This points to a cult based on myth that simply wanted more followers quickly for many reasons I don't have time to go into.
This undermines the whole of Christianity in my view. There are also many more examples of Gospel quotes being matched to the book of Horus.


OK to finish I admit I m not against Christianity. I guess I would like to have a faith of something.
But sadly my view of Christianity and religion in general is it is simply past on folk tale and myth that has other factors combined to enforce its moral code and enhance its social standing. From teaching to salvation and Jesus' life it is all copied and not unique.
Please don't be afraid to respond. If someone could answer me this I would love to be a Christian I just can't see an answer. While websites exist on this subject the best way to understand it is to read the book of Horus yourself.
Thanks very much for your time.

Sorry for the poor Gramma ect, I rushed this

Saved7
Jun 4th 2008, 10:40 PM
yah only if you dig deeper into the other religions and christianity, you will find that only christianity can be proven, while the others, can be EASILY disproven.:rolleyes:

cheekycritter
Jun 4th 2008, 10:56 PM
Please please please I know its a long post

Please read it , the poster above didnt,

I m "disproving" Christianity my digging deeper ----------please read again you didnt answer my question at all.

thanks again

RoadWarrior
Jun 4th 2008, 11:29 PM
Hi I m a Theology Student currently at University studying in particular Christianity.....

OK to finish I admit I m not against Christianity. I guess I would like to have a faith of something.
But sadly my view of Christianity and religion in general is it is simply past on folk tale and myth that has other factors combined to enforce its moral code and enhance its social standing. From teaching to salvation and Jesus' life it is all copied and not unique.
Please don't be afraid to respond. If someone could answer me this I would love to be a Christian I just can't see an answer. While websites exist on this subject the best way to understand it is to read the book of Horus yourself.
...


Hello Critter, and welcome to the board. I hope that in some way we can help you to gain a better view of this issue.

I remember a time when I looked at similar "problems" that compared Jesus with this or that mythological figure, usually to the detriment of Jesus. Then I realized that Jesus has an enemy who will stop at nothing to devalue the truth about Him. I stopped reading the mythology, and focused on looking at Jesus. So I'm not going to be the one who is able to refute all the points you make. I did note however, that much of what you wrote has been debunked. I clipped the following from a Wikipedia article.


The comparisons between Jesus & Horus are completely false, it's just an internet myth. --TotesBoats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:TotesBoats) 04:15, 25 August 2007 (UTC) ....

First off, I am not a Christian. I did some research and pretty much figured out that this and the other claims of the similarity to Jesus are more than myths, most of them are out right lies or trying to deceive or mislead intentionally. Like Mythra was born from a rock, this was called a virgin birth by Zeitgeist but it never said what it was; Mythra was just listed as having a virgin birth rather than saying how he was born. Other claims like Attis being resurrected was misleading, Attis came back to life as a tree. I did a whole paper on this in class and found out it's a bunch of lies. We should start a page on it I will have things back up what I say. Since you are in a university studying mythology, have you tried asking one of your professors about this question?

If you are interested in knowing the truth about Jesus and Christian faith, the answers are not in myths etc., but in the true story and the 2000 years of evidence that Jesus is still in the business of changing lives.

I am a witness to the power of Jesus to change lives - He changed mine. Horus never did anything for me.

moonglow
Jun 4th 2008, 11:56 PM
Hi I m a Theology Student currently at University studying in particular Christianity.
When I came to University I was, what I consider agnostic I would challenge llightly Christianity from science mainly. Through my degree course however it has become so clear Christianity is not correct. For the first time in my life I can say 99.99 percent sure it isn't true.

This isn't something I pleased about in the slightest.

Please read my arugment and tell me how there is possibly an explanation to this I would say its the biggest challenge to Christianity I know of :
I will make this easy for all types of people to read.

Very briefly Christianity emerged from the "hellenistic" part of history. Basically a time people rejected old Gods like Zeus and believed in magic/miracle/souls/new science theories. Also new religions emerged:

One religion used and very much a big part of the society Jesus and his followers would have lived in was the Religion of Isis and her Son Horus
This is one of the key points:
This religion was invented my Pharaohs in Egypt and is well documented. The Pharaohs, in simple terms, invented this myth saying the Pharaoh was linked to Horus and the mother Isis. This was so the myth would enforce the power of the Pharaoh and make him have more standing in his power.

This myth was adapted by the "hellenistic period" again the society the Bible was written. As a main religion they got rid of the Pharaoh aspect and simply adapted very slightly. This religion and worshiped both Horus and Isis.

About Horus
Born of a Virgin
Only Son of God
Born of a stable/or cave
3 wise men
a Special star linked to him
Baptized in river, Baptist died soon after
12 Disciples
Performed Miracles
Tempted by Devil
Died on cross next to two thief's
In a tomb
Resurrected


Now if I hadn't said Horus at the top you would have all believed this to be about Jesus.
The story of Horus was around 1000+ years before Jesus'. It is clear the gospel writers, either invented Jesus totally, or what I think is more likely simple took a "magician"/popular man of the time and turned him into the centre of their new cult. This cult copied a common myth to make it more popular to new converts. They could relate to it better and more likely to follow.
Also within the book of Horus
I am Horus who stepeth onward through eternity...Eternity and everlastingness is my name."
Bible
Book Of John "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today and forever."

My argument is clear. Jesus and the whole central point to Christianity is a myth that just evolved over time. The problem is not many people know about this it isn't common knowledge. This takes a way Jesus' message and uniqueness. Christianity is worshiping a traceable invention of Pharaohs, it is a myth.

I find many agnostics try to argue from science and argue from the Bible itself. But this is the argument that counts as the others are too debatable. Of course Christianity evolved and had other aspects that it was based on. The gospel writers did write with Jewish and Early Church ideas that were unique. But the point is while they wrote about their own ideas within the gospel they are simply using a myth to start the cult so their ideas would be listened to. Not to mention the fact they also wrote 70 odd years after Jesus died with sources simply based on word of mouth.

This points to a cult based on myth that simply wanted more followers quickly for many reasons I don't have time to go into.
This undermines the whole of Christianity in my view. There are also many more examples of Gospel quotes being matched to the book of Horus.


OK to finish I admit I m not against Christianity. I guess I would like to have a faith of something.
But sadly my view of Christianity and religion in general is it is simply past on folk tale and myth that has other factors combined to enforce its moral code and enhance its social standing. From teaching to salvation and Jesus' life it is all copied and not unique.
Please don't be afraid to respond. If someone could answer me this I would love to be a Christian I just can't see an answer. While websites exist on this subject the best way to understand it is to read the book of Horus yourself.
Thanks very much for your time.

Sorry for the poor Gramma ect, I rushed this

cheekycritter...this isn't a new challenge to our faith at all...its been around for a long time..the same claims you make..in fact its so common I made a video about it using information from Christianthinktank..with his permission...be sure to check out the links to the right of the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcTu6WnQzlA

Its not the greatest video in the world...I made it for information purposes..not entertainment purposes.

My son when he was in third grade I think brought home a book from the library about these Egyptian gods and I read some of it to explain to him how these gods were different from our God...I saw NOTHING similar in any of their life stories. Please notice the many, many books Glens refences on his site in relation to this topic. He isn't going by books done by Christians who voice their opinions...but true studies on these gods.


Not to mention the fact they also wrote 70 odd years after Jesus died with sources simply based on word of mouth.

This is also untrue..the earliest writings were only 30 years after His death and done by eye witnesses!

http://www.carm.org/questions/written_after.htm

http://www.carm.org/questions/trustbible.htm
Can we trust the New Testament as a historical document?

God bless

calidog
Jun 5th 2008, 12:01 AM
Good luck on your venture cheekycritter and I hope you get good grades but I hope especially that you discover truth in your search of myths.

cheekycritter
Jun 5th 2008, 12:18 AM
Hi thanks for the reply

I m studying Theology which is basically Christianity broken down into history, old / new testament study/ psychology of religion and Christianity and science

Ok I admit my knowledge of Horus was fueled by the internet. Although it started within my course texts. However for this particular myth the course books I found only talked about resurrection and virgin birth being connected with Jesus and Horus. This is because we don't study myth in huge detail it is simply an aspect we consider when studying the gospel writers sources.

But I didn't just go on Google and searched internet sources. I search extracts from books and articles from various publications. I also looked at texts talking about sources writers that simply argue that this myth was used as a source and don't argue against Christianity.

Im certainly not so foolish to believe all I read. However this one person you quote is wrong to say it is simply a internet myth. Aspects might be exaggerated. For my course I have read much on Rudolf Bultmann a key thinker who, while not directly saying the name Horus, does say many aspects of what Christ are simply myths.
I m thinking of ordering the actual works of Horus then I can read for myself the truth and be more well informed.

However I know from my course lecturers that this Myth about Horus from Egypt was somehow, to what extent is debatable, based on the figure of Jesus. This to me raises questions.

Secondly, you mention the Jesus of 2000 years ago. Leaving the myth aside you can't know the real Jesus. He is a construct of the early Church writers based on very loose oral sayings. There are people that "follow him" you said he changed your life. Well to me what he actually was, was simply a man that was made and fitted in the early cults key ideas. Evidence for this is in his miracle and work in his life they tie into the Old Testament/myth/popular ideas/or common miracle that other magicians claimed to practices aswell. For example the water into wine, the calming of the storm.
I can also aruge that that Jesus has effected your life for psychological reasons and his simply part of white middle class life. But thats a different area I dont want to get into simply because this isnt my main question. But it links to the fact i don't belive you can really know the historical Jesus. Simply beacause he probably didn't lead such life the gospel writers wrote about.

My lecturers sadly never responded to my email for some reason. Now my term has ended I cant ask him till later this year.

Thanks again

cheekycritter
Jun 5th 2008, 12:31 AM
Moonglow,

30-70 years after , but most belive that it was later rather than earlier.

Secondly the myths are not similar in the acutal lives. It is more key concepts that were adapted.

If Horus is true or not. There are so many other myths that certainly influenced Christian writers when writting about Jesus. His central message and key parts of his nature are so very questionable because they are re-hashes of other myths. Not just the Horus myth.
How people can have such blind faith when it this clear trend of folk tales can be traced in their faith?

calidog
Jun 5th 2008, 12:34 AM
Hopefully you'll include the bible, cover to cover, in your readings. I would think you'd look at both sides fairly.

The christian does'nt view Christ as simply an historical figure but as the living Son of God Who reveals Himself to the believer.

Joh 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
Joh 14:22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?"
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Scruffy Kid
Jun 5th 2008, 12:38 AM
Hi cheekycritter!
Welcome to Bibleforums! :hug:
It's great to have you here!! :pp :pp :pp

Thanks also for your vulnerable and honest post, and your questions.

I was raised in a non-believing household; and my dad, the biggest moral and intellectual influence in my life, whom I still adore, was a convinced atheist. I was specially good at Science and Math -- and got degrees in them -- but was almost equally interested in history and especially philosophy and religion.

I've been interested in religions all my life, and started reading Buddhism when I was in my early teens, I think, and went to college in a time of enormous intellectual and ideological ferment in what was probably the center of religious and spiritual upheaval at the time, the East Bay (Berkeley and environs) and I heard -- and considered -- all these and more. Some of my close friends and housemates became Tibetan Buddhists, others Sufis or followers of an Indian Guru, and so on.

In the process of thinking things through in an openminded way I came first to a tentative belief in Christianity, and then, after many rounds of further questioning, at around age 26 I became thoroughly convinced. Nothing I've seen in the 30 years since has even begun to shake my confidence in the inherent intellectual credibility -- the fundamental epistemic warrant -- of Christian truth.

Thus I really welcome your inquiries.

I don't have time to give a full answer just now, but let me sketch the beginnings of a plausibility argument which will suggest to you why I don't find the facts you adduce (which I'll take as stipulated here, for now) particularly troublesome for Christian belief.

Even in the brief form in which I present it here, though, the answer will be rather long. Sorry about that. (My friends here all say: Scruff, your posts are way too long! :rofl: )


Responding to your arguments

1. The basic form of your argument is that many of the features of Christ's story (as given by Christianity) were anticipated by the myth of Horus some thousand years earlier. This, you think, suggests that Christianity was just a copy of a previous myth. There are two reasons why I don't find this a particularly compelling argument, just on its own terms.

1.1 The coinciding of the myth of Horus and the life of Christ does not show that the latter was a copy of the former. There are many other possible patterns and explanations.

Let's suppose for a sec that there is a God, a Creator God who is involved with his Creation, and that the things that he does in history are not arbitrary acts (though they may include things He freely elects and might not have chosen to do) but rather conform to the way that He has set the universe up (for His good purposes.) Then we would expect the fundamental patterns of His action to be mirrored in the structure of nature. This is in fact the case, if (I say IF) God is, as it might happen, as Christianity teaches him to be: that is, for instance, the cycle of death and resurrection is in fact mirrored in the pattern of the death of crops in the winter, and their return into new life in the Spring. This pattern of death and the return of life is something which is common material which emerges in a number of religions, and indeed folk myths and songs, throughout the world.

Thus, if there is a structure to the fabric of the universe which reflects the purposes of a creator God we might expect two things. We might expect that when God decisively acts, it would be in accord with the fundamental nature of things as He has set it up; and we might expect that the fundamental structure of things as He has set it up, to be reflected in in myths and songs and folk-tales which are commonly told.

Then if there were a decisive and (in particular) miraculous set of events in which God intervened in history, I would find it surprising if that had not been anticipated by previous myths of various sorts. The kinds of anticipations which occur in myth -- not just Horus, but Ceres and Persephone, Balder the beautiful, and other such myths and legends -- are anticipations which might well arise from the structure of nature and of human imagination, because both nature and the human heart have been framed by God with his decisive miraculous intervention -- in this case the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ in mind.

Of course, one would be even more inclined to expect such anticipations if God (or, perhaps some other power) moved in people's hearts and lives to push them subtly in the direction of anticipating His all-important climactic act.

Let's think of a possible example. Suppose there was a righteous man, the wisest and humblest of men, who was proclaimed by a divine forerunner to be the special representative of truth on earth. Let's suppose that this man, as he taught, made other people -- representatives of the moral and religious establishment -- more and more angry, as he taught. Though he did nothing wrong, and was, in fact, building on and interpreting the traditions of his own culture, he was falsely accused and tried in an improper trial, and then condemned to death. Though he had the power to escape death, he chose to remain and face death, for in this way, he thought, the law and what is right would be fulfilled in him. After his death, his teaching took on new power, and became one of the central foundations of all human thought (at least in the West) for the next 2000 years. Though he himself left no written record, his main disciple wrote powerful works, through which the master's teachings were spread -- although some later felt that the disciple had actually invented most of the teaching, and that the master was in fact quite different in his views (as some allege concerning St. Paul, and his views of who Jesus was).

(Of course, it'd be hard to maintain that the life of Jesus was both based on the life of Socrates, and that myth of Horus -- though doubtless a clever person could craft such a theory if he wanted to.)

In fact, such an occurrence would naturally be taken -- if it occurred before the life of Jesus -- as a remarkable anticipation of that life.

Of course you will realize that I am speaking of Socrates (whom we know mainly through the works of Plato). Starting with the second century apologists (defenders of the Christian faith such as Justin and others) Christians were struck by the parallels between Socrates and Jesus. These continue to haunt people down to this day, although the last major work that I'm aware of that centered on these similarities was the Socratic Memorabilia of Hammann, a contemporary (and friend) of Kant's, in which Hammann tried to present the gospel to Kant and other friends in a form they might be able to assimilate.

Other Christian writers viewed Jesus as fulfilling the prophecies -- or oracular prophecy-like utterances -- that Virgil penned in his Ecklogues.

If in fact there were proleptic, perhaps prophetic, anticipations of Jesus' life -- whether in the OT (the Tanach, or Old Testament, the Hebrew Scriptures), in Egyptian and Greek myths, in Roman poets, or in the dramatic events of wise saintly living figures such as Socrates -- this does not settle the question of why these repetitions occur. One can imagine many theories.

Your theory seems to be that the story of Jesus as found in the NT was crafted to fit the myth of Horus. Another possibility is that both are independently derived myths which find deep origins in archetypes in the human psyche (in the manner of the psychological theories of C. G. Jung). Another is that God actually did the things the NT (New Testament, Greek Christian Scriptures) said he did, in the life of Jesus, and that these were anticipated by other myths, either (a) because they are encoded into the patterns of nature and the human mind, or (b) because God helped these other cultures to make some kind of guess at the truth, to prepare them for the gospel, or (c) because a malign influence tried to anticipate and distort the truth by creating a myth as a counterfeit ahead of time, or (d) for all these reasons at once, or (e) for other reasons.

Apparantly you have just tumbled across arguments of this sort. Similar arguments were made around the turn of the century by Frazier in the Golden Bough, and by later believers in the importance of myth, such Joseph Campbell The Hero with A Thousand Faces, and other such works, and so on.

Christians have known about these arguments and findings for almost a hundred years. Doesn't bother us at all. Apparently you've just tumbled across it. Don't let it throw you! :saint: The general discussion of the role of myth, and its importance in human affairs, and that it did in fact anticipate the story of Christ, was developed by C.S. Lewis, in the years immediately before and after he came to believe in God and then in Christ. All these things were well known to him, of course: he was a classical scholar of astounding breadth and prowess. His friend Tolkien, also a Christian, and others of their circle of Christian intellectuals worked with these ideas throughout the middle years of the twentieth century -- and that's where I first encountered the thinking on all this.

So, in summary, I don't find the replication, or duplication, of patterns of Christ's life (as believed by Christians, or as recounted in the New Testament) to be evidence that with any clear (unambiguous) implications as to the truth of the New Testament stories. This kind of co-inciding can be understood in a wide variety of ways, as I've tried to show.

1.2 The explanation you give does not explain lots of other phenomena, which require explanation if your account of how the Christian story arose is to be plausible.

There are lots of explanations which are offered as to where the Christian religion came from, other than that which is offered by Christianity. Christians, of course, believe that Jesus was the unique and eternal Son of God (though also entirely a human being) and that just as He said (in the NT, that is) He got His doctrine from the Father, that is from God, and spoke with Divine authority because He himself was God (God the Son). Also, of course, Jesus plainly read the Scriptures (the OT, the Tanach) and knew these extremely well, and built His teaching around them [/indent] As over-against this, people suggest that (a) Jesus went to Egypt and got from them the wisdom of the Egyptians, or (b) that Jesus went to India, and learned the teachings of India and brought them back, or (c) that what Jesus taught was something entirely different, and the whole Christian religion was cooked up by St. Paul, or (d) that it had other mythological foundations, or (e) that the real teachings of Jesus survive in hidden form, known to the person who advances this theory and his occult teachers (or perhaps in Sufism, a form of mystical Islam) and that Christianity is a misunderstanding by dumb disciples, who passed on their clueless misperceptions, or (f) that the real truth was found in so-called gnostic writings like the gospel of Thomas, which give us the true teaching which was suppressed by misogynists and power-hungry bishops, or (g) that what we have in Christianity is a garbled version of Buddhism (mahayana, or hinayana, or some other original version of what Guatama (the Buddha) taught, and on and on. Many parallels are made between elements of Buddhism, for instance, and Christianity, and the life of Jesus is also alleged to have similarities which show it was copied from the life of Buddha (as traditionally received).

The problem with these explanations -- as with yours about Horus -- is that they do not explain what happened after the (alleged) resurrection of Jesus and His (alleged) ascension. The myth of Horus had been around (on your showing) for a thousand years. Not much happened. It didn't spread across Africa, or the middle east, or the Persian, Greek, or Roman Empires. It didn't have great power in transforming people's lives. It just sat there.

But the Christian religion has been dynamic from the beginning. People here on the board are here because they have found "the power of Christ" (as they experienced it) to be real -- and it changed their lives. Despite rather severe persecution, the Gospel spread across the Roman Empire, transforming lives there also. Ancient non-Christian writers marvelled that ordinary Christians from the lower classes lived "like Philosophers" -- that is bravely, chastely, honestly, humbly. What philosophical teaching of the most exalted kind was supposed to do for the upper classes (but rarely accomplished) -- namely, subduing the passions and living in accord with reason -- did in fact happen even with uneducated tradespeople who became Christians. People were killed for their faith, yet blessed their persecutors, and went bravely to their deaths.

The Christian religion has great power throughout the world. In China, in 1949, there were less than 1 million Christians. This was the year that Mao Tse-tung and the Communists took over, and they immediately suppressed religion, and Christianity in particular. Yet when the worst of the persecution was over (it still continues, in reduced form), and people could start to get information about what was going on, even fairly conservative estimates were that the Christian faith had spread throughout China -- even into remote areas -- and that there were some 50 million Protestant Christians by 2000. Similarly, when Africa achieved independence around 1960, there were relatively few Christians -- maybe 10% of the population. But by 2000 the vast majority -- maybe 75% -- of sub-Saharan Africa was at least nominally Christian.

So whether in the ancient world, or later in Europe, in Africa and China today, or in the lives of people on this board (many of whom were once convinced agnostics or anti-Christians) the teachings of Christianity -- and/or the power of God working -- has changed lives powerfully. It's evident for instance that the Apostles -- the original spreaders of Christianity -- died for their faith, and that many people in the early Roman empire died (often were tortured to death) for their faith. What gave them the strength -- or even the obsessive delusion, if that's what you wish to suppose -- to do that?

The explanation that the teachings of Christianity were got by Jesus in Egypt or India, or made up by St. Paul, or that the (Christian account of) the life of Jesus was just a copy of the Horus myth, or based on Buddhist legends and so on -- quite apart from the lack of concrete evidence for these hypotheses -- does not explain where the transformative power of Christianity came from -- where that power in people's lives came from in the ancient world, or indeed where it comes from today. That is: if, as you say, Christianity was a rescript of the Horus myth, what was added to that which made it so powerful that in a couple of hundred years it had taken over the Roman empire, while the Horus myth itself did not seem to have any particular power to change lives and mobilize followers?

1. Recap: Ive given you two basic types of rejoinder to the argument that you seem to find so compelling. Your idea is that (stipulated) similarities between the Horus legend and the Christian account of Jesus's life make it clear that the latter was copied from the former.

I argued -- negatively (that is, [I]against the supposed compelling force of the facts you posit in supporting your doubts about Christianity) -- (1.1) that the similarities don't prove too much, even assuming them to be fully genuine, because one might have expected to find some such similarities if Christianity was, in fact, the revelation of the God who created nature and loves all people. One might expect to find various anticipations and echos of the truth richocheting around the world and its thoughts for many possible reasons, if Christ was, indeed, the maker and ruler of the worlds and the author of Creation.

I also argued -- positively (that is, pointing out things which render the argument inadequate, failing to account for the main facts of Christian history, whatever its merits on its own terms, because it fails to explain things that require explanation) -- (1.2) that any account of the origins of Christianity which attributes them to something other than the religious and moral force of Jesus and his teachings and of God at work through Him and through the body of his followers, has to offer some kind of alternative explanation as to why these teachings are so salutary and powerful in people's lives, and why they have had this effect, and spread widely throughout many different eras and cultures and circumstances.


Going on from this point

None of this, of course, touches the reasons why I believe Christianity to be true, LOL! :lol: I have tried here simply to respond to your urgent concern. I believe the Gospel of Christ to be of vital, ultimate importance -- true, beautiful, life-giving, the source of goodness in the lives of individuals and civilizations, and of course I want you to see that this is so.

I emphasize "true": I believe the Gospel not because I think it does good -- although I know it does -- but because I am intellectually convinced ("rationally convinced") of its truth.

I can't go into any the reasons here: the post is already at the character limits, and I'm out of time! But try to keep your mind open to Christ, and seek God and the truth with your whole heart!

In friendship,
Scruffy Kid

cheekycritter
Jun 5th 2008, 12:42 AM
yes yes i know I read a lot of the Bible. hmmm cover to cover might get a little boring/confusing plus if you read the gospel you can see they are all taking stories from each other....expect for John

anyway i wasnt saying that Christians simply belive in the historical Jesus. I just was responding to the "he changed my life" he is not simply a man. That was my point.

cheekycritter
Jun 5th 2008, 12:44 AM
scruffy kid you post looks amazing I will read tomorrow i need to go to bed its nearly 2 am here lol

calidog
Jun 5th 2008, 01:34 AM
yes yes i know I read a lot of the Bible. hmmm cover to cover might get a little boring/confusing plus if you read the gospel you can see they are all taking stories from each other....expect for John

anyway i wasnt saying that Christians simply belive in the historical Jesus. I just was responding to the "he changed my life" he is not simply a man. That was my point.It can be laborious. Hopefully you'll give it the same treatment that you give your other readings.

RoadWarrior
Jun 5th 2008, 01:36 AM
...
Secondly, you mention the Jesus of 2000 years ago. Leaving the myth aside you can't know the real Jesus.
.....
I can also aruge that that Jesus has effected your life for psychological reasons and his simply part of white middle class life. But thats a different area I dont want to get into simply because this isnt my main question. But it links to the fact i don't belive you can really know the historical Jesus. Simply beacause he probably didn't lead such life the gospel writers wrote about.
...
Thanks again

Your arguments are of course for your own benefit. I'm sure you are not meaning to be arrogant in your statements. As I stated, others are better suited to the discourse about mythology, so I don't intend to speak to that.

If Jesus affected my life for psychological reasons as you say, then I must tell you that He achieved what psychologists (and other religions) failed to do.

It is not the "historical Jesus" that affected my life. It is the living God who affected my life.

It seems also that you are looking at the myths that have been embraced by the traditions of man, and claimed as Christianity; these are not found in the Bible. If you want to know the real Jesus, don't look at Church dogma. Look to Him, as He is revealed in the Word. Of course to do this, you must take off your biased lenses.

Athanasius
Jun 5th 2008, 01:41 AM
Born of a Virgin
Only Son of God
Born of a stable/or cave
3 wise men
a Special star linked to him
Baptized in river, Baptist died soon after
12 Disciples
Performed Miracles
Tempted by Devil
Died on cross next to two thief's
In a tomb
Resurrected


Yeah, I watched Zeitgeist too.
Oh, and I've read Glenn Miller... Which is probably where you're getting a lot of your ideas (even if you don't realize it). Or maybe Massey...

ScruffyKid will get to the rest of the post... I feel like refuting these claims. There are certain claims I will group together.

#1 - Born of a virgin
#3 - Born of a stable/or cave
#4 - Three wise men
#5 - Special star linked to him

Horus was actually born in a swamp, not a stable or a cave. There were no wise men associated with his birth, and there was no star associated with his birth, either. Imaginative and false falsifications from Glenn Miller.

Let's consider the story of Horus' birth, please remember that pagan miracle births are filled with sexuality, why is this missing from the Christian birth narrative..?:

"But after she [i.e., Isis] had brought it [i.e. Osiris' body] back to Egypt, Seth managed to get hold of Osiris's body again and cut it up into fourteen parts, which she scattered all over Egypt. Then Isis went out to search for Osiris a second time and buried each part where she found it (hence the many tombs of Osiris tht exist in Egypt). The only part that she did not find was the god's penis, for Seth had thrown it into the river, where it had been eaten by a fish; Isis therefore fashioned a substitute penis to put in its place. She had also had sexual intercourse with Osisis after his death, which resulted in the conception and birth of his posthumous son, Harpocrates, Horus-the-child. Osiris became king of the netherworld, and Horus proceeded to fight with Seth..." [CANE:2:1702; emphasis mine]

No virgin birth, no stable or cave, no wise men, no special star. Completely and entirely false. Points 1, 3, 4 and 5 are void. Remember, your belief that Christianity is false, of which you're 99.9% certain, is based on this 'evidence'.

#2 - Only Son of God

Where is this in the Horus myth?

#6 - Baptized in a river, baptist died soon after

Horus was never baptized in any of the Horus myths.

#7 - Both had 12 disciples

Horus did not have 12 disciples, He had 4 semi-divine followers, titled heru-shemsu ("Followers of Horus"), and he had an unnumbered group of followers titled mesniu/mesnitu.

#8 - Both performed miracles

This is true; though the miracles were of vastly different scope and measure. This is to be expected considering the subject matter.

#9 - Tempted by the devil

Uhm... Where in the Horus myth (in any of them) is he tempted by the devil?

#10 - Died on a cross next to two theives

Where is this mentioned in the Horus myth?

#11 - Both put in a tomb

Where is this in the Horus myth?

#12 - Resurrected

Again, where is this in the Horus myth? (To to above five claims-including #2-you need not answer; you will find no such things in the Horus myth).

The above isn't common knowledge... Because it really isn't knowledge; it's almost entirely false, with the exception of the claim that both Jesus and Horus performed 'miracles', whatever it is we mean by the word miracle. The only reason such a view is still around is because of this thing called the 'internet' which has the grand ability to propagate misinformation faster than Orwell's fictional government in his monumental work 1984. You could go through all the myths of antiquity and you would find yourself in a similar situation. Now with this I wish to add a question--why do you expect of us to read the entire book of Horus before we make our judgments, while it's not required of you to read the entire Bible to make your judgments of Christianity? I would also recommend asking your professors these questions; but I doubt you'd come across any sort of worth while answer. They've been teaching this sort of misinformation since the late 1960's. Liberalism....

What has become of your certainty that Christianity is 99.9% false?

TEITZY
Jun 5th 2008, 02:44 AM
Hi thanks for the reply

I m studying Theology which is basically Christianity broken down into history, old / new testament study/ psychology of religion and Christianity and science

Ok I admit my knowledge of Horus was fueled by the internet. Although it started within my course texts. However for this particular myth the course books I found only talked about resurrection and virgin birth being connected with Jesus and Horus. This is because we don't study myth in huge detail it is simply an aspect we consider when studying the gospel writers sources.

But I didn't just go on Google and searched internet sources. I search extracts from books and articles from various publications. I also looked at texts talking about sources writers that simply argue that this myth was used as a source and don't argue against Christianity.

Im certainly not so foolish to believe all I read. However this one person you quote is wrong to say it is simply a internet myth. Aspects might be exaggerated. For my course I have read much on Rudolf Bultmann a key thinker who, while not directly saying the name Horus, does say many aspects of what Christ are simply myths.
I m thinking of ordering the actual works of Horus then I can read for myself the truth and be more well informed.

However I know from my course lecturers that this Myth about Horus from Egypt was somehow, to what extent is debatable, based on the figure of Jesus. This to me raises questions.

Secondly, you mention the Jesus of 2000 years ago. Leaving the myth aside you can't know the real Jesus. He is a construct of the early Church writers based on very loose oral sayings. There are people that "follow him" you said he changed your life. Well to me what he actually was, was simply a man that was made and fitted in the early cults key ideas. Evidence for this is in his miracle and work in his life they tie into the Old Testament/myth/popular ideas/or common miracle that other magicians claimed to practices aswell. For example the water into wine, the calming of the storm.
I can also aruge that that Jesus has effected your life for psychological reasons and his simply part of white middle class life. But thats a different area I dont want to get into simply because this isnt my main question. But it links to the fact i don't belive you can really know the historical Jesus. Simply beacause he probably didn't lead such life the gospel writers wrote about.

My lecturers sadly never responded to my email for some reason. Now my term has ended I cant ask him till later this year.

Thanks again


Here's (http://www.equip.org/site/c.muI1LaMNJrE/b.2712035/k.AF09/DB109.htm) just one article that deals with this topic and you can find many more here (http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/3013) if you are interested. I really find this whole situation quite pathetic and very disturbing. I've said for a long time that universities and Bible colleges are potentially the most dangerous places on earth for a Christian and your experience just highlights that fact.

Essentially what you're saying is that the Jesus of the Bible is a myth. Honestly this is akin to denying the holocaust or 9/11 ever happened! Of all historical figures, there are none that are better documented or verified than the life of Jesus Christ. If you want to deny the veracity of written eyewitness accounts then you had better strike off most of the great figures of history as myths, because that is the only evidence we have to suggest many of them ever existed. Anyone can make an intellectual-sounding argument denying the existence or authenticity of Christ and the Gospels, but their motives are purely drawn from a hatred of God-Christ-Christianity and an effort (a satanic inspired one at that) to remove God from the picture so they can justify their sinful lifestyles.

I'm not going to win any intellectual battles with you (others can try that) but instead I'll just try and appeal to your conscience. You said:


OK to finish I admit I m not against Christianity. I guess I would like to have a faith of something.


Why do you want to believe in something? You don't know do you? But you are not alone, billions of people all over the world believe or want to believe in something greater than themselves and often they'll believe in anything, no matter how irrational or ludicrous, just to satisfy this need they have. The fact is that we were created by an almighty God and we will never find rest in our souls, in our conscience, until we find Him. You want to have "faith' in something because God has placed that desire in your heart. Unfortunately our sin has created an inpenetrable barrier between us and God and there is no way, by our own human effort or devises, that we can break down this wall.

The Gospel begins with sin and that's where you need to start looking. We are all sinners, but until we realize we are, we won't seek God for forgiveness or Christ for salvation. Hopefully being a theology student you are familiar with the 10 commandments and I'm sure if you examine your own life you can find at least one and probably more that you have broken. For example:

Have you ever lied, even a white one?

Have you ever stolen, even a paper clip?

Have you used God's name to in vain, as a swear word?

Have you lusted after someone of the opposite sex (Jesus said that's akin to adultery)?

Have you ever hated someone (that's akin to murder in the NT)?


Just breaking one of these is enough to send anyone to hell forever and no amount of 'good' can outweigh the penalty of even one sin. So where do you stand before God? What intellectual argument are you going to use to justify your unbelief before an omniscient Judge?

Your only hope is to have someone pay the penalty for your sin and that's what Christ did. If He is just a myth or another man then we are all doomed because a myth can't save anyone nor can a sinner save himself let alone anyone else. If Jesus is just a myth then I'm wasting my time writing this reply, this website is irrelevant, Christianity is a hoax and life is essentially meaningless. Can you handle the possibility that all life is meaningless? I don't think you can, I thnk you want desperately to find some purpose to it all, but unfortunately you are writing off the only One who gives life purpose and who satisfies our deepest spiritual needs.

I hope you will stop and reconsider Christ.

Cheers
Leigh

BroRog
Jun 5th 2008, 04:56 AM
Two things:

First, this story is all over the internet in various forms.

Second, this idea recently comes to us from a book written by Tom Harpur. (I will not link to it.)

Tom Harpur was heavily influenced by two men, Alvin Boyd Kuhn and Gerald Massey (self-proclaimed druid.)

All of these men subscribe to a philosophy called "Theosophy" promoted by Blavatsky, which is a philosophy with roots in Neoplatonism.

I suspect that the Egyptology of these men is highly suspect seeing that they have a vested interest in promoting Theosophy. Also, the Egyptology of these men is informed by archeology of the late 1800's, most likely out of date today.

BrckBrln
Jun 5th 2008, 05:00 AM
Arthur W. Pink was also involved in Theosophy before he became a Christian. This verse is what changed his view and I hope it does the same for the thread starter.

There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death. Proverbs 14:12

Gulah Papyrus
Jun 5th 2008, 05:54 AM
Hello CheekyCritter, you might find this page useful as you continue your studies beings these kinds of bogus claims don't stop with our good friend Horus...

http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_similarities.html


Keep in mind that the masses have been trying relentlessly to 'debunk' Christianity from the first day Jesus began His ministry until now and the result has been that The Bible has sold more copies than any book in history with 2007 breaking the old record(2006;)). I am not saying you shouldn't question it, but if someone tells you that they have the magic 99.9999% sure bullet, be very skeptical because Christians have heard them all over the last 2000 years and in the words of King Solomon "There is nothing new under the sun".

I would also ask you to continue to visit this forum aside from your studies and I'm sure you will find that there are some truly brilliant minds here who will treat you with kindness and respect while answering any other questions you might have. There is great weath of knowledge here and I think you will be pleasently surprised to find so many intelligent, logical down to earth people who believe this so-called 'myth'.;)

Good luck with your classes!

Revinius
Jun 5th 2008, 06:54 AM
Your information is founded on presumptions mate. For example, you presume NT writings are constructs of the church yet i dont see how you can completely account for such criterion of embarassment that the early church would not have constructed.

*puts on historian cap*

Basically there are certain rules of thumb in assessing historicity of primary texts:

Multiple independent attestation - the more often something is said in sources the more likely it is historical.

Context - the more the accounts speak of happenings within the context of the area in which they are (eg rural Gallilee) the less likely its a later replication.

Dissimilarity - If a story/saying is dissimilar from what the early church taught, then they didnt invent it. Therefore its more likely it was actually said. Double that against the context of the Jews as well as the Christians. (eg. Son of Man description used by Jesus only ever used three times in NT - title not commonly used in early church)

Embarassment - if it says something the early church would have issues with explaining, it probably true that its something they were stuck with.

Prophesy - if something is said that hasnt happened yet its likely its not a fabrication.

Theological point - if a story has no theological point to it then it was unlikely to be invented as there would be no reason to do so. If its in there simply to report what happened its more likely to be historical.

Basically the point of giving the briefest of overview to these rules of thumb is to show how you should go about historically analysing these documents you claim are fabrications. I have done so and i would be extremely surprised if after you did this then you still made the same assertion.

God Bless.

daughter
Jun 5th 2008, 02:25 PM
Xel Naga has responded with a very detailed analyses of the actual myth... and I have to applaud him for the effort. I hope this helps you cheekycritter... the twentieth century spawned a lot of pseudo history and back dated analyses of myths, which were full of anachronisms that... unfortunately, most people take on faith. If an expert says Horus was so similar to Jesus, then we tend to believe the expert.

You need to be an archaeologist... go back and dig into the primary texts yourselves. Not books about them, but the actual earliest extant copies of the myths.

Then you'll start to see how radically different the gospel accounts are. I used to be a witch, and believed most of the same things you do... so I know it can be hard and painful to realise how much of our "expert knowledge" is a modern fabrication.

Keep looking, and seeking. And I hope we are of some help to you.

moonglow
Jun 5th 2008, 03:12 PM
Moonglow,

30-70 years after , but most belive that it was later rather than earlier.

Secondly the myths are not similar in the acutal lives. It is more key concepts that were adapted.

If Horus is true or not. There are so many other myths that certainly influenced Christian writers when writting about Jesus. His central message and key parts of his nature are so very questionable because they are re-hashes of other myths. Not just the Horus myth.
How people can have such blind faith when it this clear trend of folk tales can be traced in their faith?

Our faith doesn't require blind faith...I see you didn't click on any of the links I had on my video...

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html
Good question......was Jesus Christ just a CopyCat Savior Myth?

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat2.html
were the New Testament authors influenced by pagan legends?

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/stil13.html
James Still's "Critique of New Testament Reliability and 'Bias' in NT Development"--my initial response (cont.).

Let me ask you something...if I took the story of anyone's life in this world...picked anyone throughout history...no matter how normal...or how remarkable...and searched I could easily find someone else (probably many) who had 'tags' in their life similar to the one I started out with. Would that mean that person wasn't real, regardless of how much evidence their was for them? Just because they had a life with hight lights similar to someone else in the past? Well of course not.

When you find the real facts about these pagan gods you will see less and less similar to Jesus. Mirthra was born from a rock! how it that a virgin birth? And when Mirthra died, he stayed dead...he wasn't nailed to a cross...

Horus was conceived by his mother that used the cut up pieces of poor old dead dad to conceive him. barf. How is that a virgin birth? When Horus died..also not nailed to a cross ..he 'lived' in the underworld and escorted the dead to it. How is that rising from the dead? They saw the 'dead' then as 'living in the underworld'...the place of the dead. Horus was the god of the dead. He also had the head of a falcon. Now who believes someone ever truly lived that was walking around with a human body and a birds head? Well no one. You will also find no real miracles with these gods. They were real at all, but truly myths...made up stories. You won't find any documents of eye witness accounts of them or anything they did because they really did not exist. You need to read the story of Moses and the battled between our God verses the belief in these pagan god. Guess who won?

Romans 1:18
18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. 19 For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. 20 From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.
21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead.

23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people, or birds and animals and snakes.

You know what I think happened? I think these people knew who the real living God was as He puts the knowledge of Himself in everyone...but instead of accepting this....they took this knowledge and distorted it and twisted it to what they wanted....to what fit their desires and made idols...statues to worship and made up stories to go with them. People do this sort of thing all the time..they take a truth they know...don't like it for whatever reason, so change it to fit their views. :(

Oh PS...there are books out there (some done by atheist) showing 'proof' that these pagan gods were similar to Jesus...you need to always check where they get their information from! And some older books that have been debunked...with all the misinformation out there in books, on the net, and so forth...it can be hard finding the truth and most atheist don't believe Christian sites either...so find a source that is nearly done by an atheist or a Christian so you know the view isn't slanted and read for yourself. I would just go to the library and get a few books there..but before you read them...do a search on the authors name! If they are a high profile atheist you will find it on the net (same goes for a Christian author). I wouldn't spend money on a book at this point unless you KNOW the author is ok.

God bless

mizzdy
Jun 5th 2008, 09:40 PM
These parallels go all the way back to the summerians. Where did the summerians get their 'gods' from? If one thinks the flood was real then you would have Noah and his family coming out with knowledge of God and all the history and then the ideas of man and satan enter and mess things up and viola you have the same theme running through all religious concepts of the world. What a better way for satan to pervert the truth and cast doubts than through similar concepts. Well thats my take on it anyway. :D

markinro
Jun 5th 2008, 10:48 PM
Hi I m a Theology Student currently at University studying in particular Christianity.
When I came to University I was, what I consider agnostic I would challenge llightly Christianity from science mainly. Through my degree course however it has become so clear Christianity is not correct. For the first time in my life I can say 99.99 percent sure it isn't true.

This isn't something I pleased about in the slightest.

Please read my arugment and tell me how there is possibly an explanation to this I would say its the biggest challenge to Christianity I know of :
I will make this easy for all types of people to read.

Very briefly Christianity emerged from the "hellenistic" part of history. Basically a time people rejected old Gods like Zeus and believed in magic/miracle/souls/new science theories. Also new religions emerged:

One religion used and very much a big part of the society Jesus and his followers would have lived in was the Religion of Isis and her Son Horus
This is one of the key points:
This religion was invented my Pharaohs in Egypt and is well documented. The Pharaohs, in simple terms, invented this myth saying the Pharaoh was linked to Horus and the mother Isis. This was so the myth would enforce the power of the Pharaoh and make him have more standing in his power.

This myth was adapted by the "hellenistic period" again the society the Bible was written. As a main religion they got rid of the Pharaoh aspect and simply adapted very slightly. This religion and worshiped both Horus and Isis.

About Horus
Born of a Virgin
Only Son of God
Born of a stable/or cave
3 wise men
a Special star linked to him
Baptized in river, Baptist died soon after
12 Disciples
Performed Miracles
Tempted by Devil
Died on cross next to two thief's
In a tomb
Resurrected


Now if I hadn't said Horus at the top you would have all believed this to be about Jesus.
The story of Horus was around 1000+ years before Jesus'. It is clear the gospel writers, either invented Jesus totally, or what I think is more likely simple took a "magician"/popular man of the time and turned him into the centre of their new cult. This cult copied a common myth to make it more popular to new converts. They could relate to it better and more likely to follow.
Also within the book of Horus
I am Horus who stepeth onward through eternity...Eternity and everlastingness is my name."
Bible
Book Of John "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today and forever."

My argument is clear. Jesus and the whole central point to Christianity is a myth that just evolved over time. The problem is not many people know about this it isn't common knowledge. This takes a way Jesus' message and uniqueness. Christianity is worshiping a traceable invention of Pharaohs, it is a myth.

I find many agnostics try to argue from science and argue from the Bible itself. But this is the argument that counts as the others are too debatable. Of course Christianity evolved and had other aspects that it was based on. The gospel writers did write with Jewish and Early Church ideas that were unique. But the point is while they wrote about their own ideas within the gospel they are simply using a myth to start the cult so their ideas would be listened to. Not to mention the fact they also wrote 70 odd years after Jesus died with sources simply based on word of mouth.

This points to a cult based on myth that simply wanted more followers quickly for many reasons I don't have time to go into.
This undermines the whole of Christianity in my view. There are also many more examples of Gospel quotes being matched to the book of Horus.


OK to finish I admit I m not against Christianity. I guess I would like to have a faith of something.
But sadly my view of Christianity and religion in general is it is simply past on folk tale and myth that has other factors combined to enforce its moral code and enhance its social standing. From teaching to salvation and Jesus' life it is all copied and not unique.
Please don't be afraid to respond. If someone could answer me this I would love to be a Christian I just can't see an answer. While websites exist on this subject the best way to understand it is to read the book of Horus yourself.
Thanks very much for your time.

Sorry for the poor Gramma ect, I rushed this

If you want to find out more about Jesus, I would suggest attending church and start reading your bible instead of some guy named Horus.

Are there followers of Horus today ? Can people be saved by believing on Horus ? Is Horus returning to setup his kingdom ? Is Horus seated at the right of God Almighty ?

Matt14
Jun 6th 2008, 12:23 AM
Hi I m a Theology Student currently at University studying in particular Christianity.
When I came to University I was, what I consider agnostic I would challenge llightly Christianity from science mainly. Through my degree course however it has become so clear Christianity is not correct. For the first time in my life I can say 99.99 percent sure it isn't true.

This isn't something I pleased about in the slightest.

Please read my arugment and tell me how there is possibly an explanation to this I would say its the biggest challenge to Christianity I know of :
I will make this easy for all types of people to read.

Very briefly Christianity emerged from the "hellenistic" part of history. Basically a time people rejected old Gods like Zeus and believed in magic/miracle/souls/new science theories. Also new religions emerged:

One religion used and very much a big part of the society Jesus and his followers would have lived in was the Religion of Isis and her Son Horus
This is one of the key points:
This religion was invented my Pharaohs in Egypt and is well documented. The Pharaohs, in simple terms, invented this myth saying the Pharaoh was linked to Horus and the mother Isis. This was so the myth would enforce the power of the Pharaoh and make him have more standing in his power.

This myth was adapted by the "hellenistic period" again the society the Bible was written. As a main religion they got rid of the Pharaoh aspect and simply adapted very slightly. This religion and worshiped both Horus and Isis.

About Horus
Born of a Virgin
Only Son of God
Born of a stable/or cave
3 wise men
a Special star linked to him
Baptized in river, Baptist died soon after
12 Disciples
Performed Miracles
Tempted by Devil
Died on cross next to two thief's
In a tomb
Resurrected


Now if I hadn't said Horus at the top you would have all believed this to be about Jesus.
The story of Horus was around 1000+ years before Jesus'. It is clear the gospel writers, either invented Jesus totally, or what I think is more likely simple took a "magician"/popular man of the time and turned him into the centre of their new cult. This cult copied a common myth to make it more popular to new converts. They could relate to it better and more likely to follow.
Also within the book of Horus
I am Horus who stepeth onward through eternity...Eternity and everlastingness is my name."
Bible
Book Of John "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today and forever."

My argument is clear. Jesus and the whole central point to Christianity is a myth that just evolved over time. The problem is not many people know about this it isn't common knowledge. This takes a way Jesus' message and uniqueness. Christianity is worshiping a traceable invention of Pharaohs, it is a myth.

I find many agnostics try to argue from science and argue from the Bible itself. But this is the argument that counts as the others are too debatable. Of course Christianity evolved and had other aspects that it was based on. The gospel writers did write with Jewish and Early Church ideas that were unique. But the point is while they wrote about their own ideas within the gospel they are simply using a myth to start the cult so their ideas would be listened to. Not to mention the fact they also wrote 70 odd years after Jesus died with sources simply based on word of mouth.

This points to a cult based on myth that simply wanted more followers quickly for many reasons I don't have time to go into.
This undermines the whole of Christianity in my view. There are also many more examples of Gospel quotes being matched to the book of Horus.


OK to finish I admit I m not against Christianity. I guess I would like to have a faith of something.
But sadly my view of Christianity and religion in general is it is simply past on folk tale and myth that has other factors combined to enforce its moral code and enhance its social standing. From teaching to salvation and Jesus' life it is all copied and not unique.
Please don't be afraid to respond. If someone could answer me this I would love to be a Christian I just can't see an answer. While websites exist on this subject the best way to understand it is to read the book of Horus yourself.
Thanks very much for your time.

Sorry for the poor Gramma ect, I rushed this

Hello there, good to meet you! Welcome to the board.

I have very little time today, but just wanted to assure you that this question you have is common, and has been answered many times. Please read these scholarly articles for the answer you seek:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/156

-

ProDeo
Jun 6th 2008, 01:35 AM
About Horus
Born of a Virgin
Only Son of God
Born of a stable/or cave
3 wise men
a Special star linked to him
Baptized in river, Baptist died soon after
12 Disciples
Performed Miracles
Tempted by Devil
Died on cross next to two thief's
In a tomb
Resurrected

It's a known internet hoax, I have seen the same written about Buddha ;)

If you think it's not please quote the original ancient Egyptian text, it's not in there, not in the widest vista.

A good read for you: http://tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html

Ed

daughter
Jun 7th 2008, 12:57 PM
To the OP... I hope that you do return to this thread. I can imagine that you have been very embarassed to learn how deeply mistaken the sources you have been studying are, and I can only imagine how this must make you feel about the course you are doing.

If you were here honestly, honestly believing these hoaxes to be true... please don't be ashamed to come back. You're not the only person who has been lied to by their professors and teachers.

EarlyCall
Jun 7th 2008, 02:07 PM
Hi I m a Theology Student currently at University studying in particular Christianity.
When I came to University I was, what I consider agnostic I would challenge llightly Christianity from science mainly. Through my degree course however it has become so clear Christianity is not correct. For the first time in my life I can say 99.99 percent sure it isn't true.

This isn't something I pleased about in the slightest.

Please read my arugment and tell me how there is possibly an explanation to this I would say its the biggest challenge to Christianity I know of :
I will make this easy for all types of people to read.

Very briefly Christianity emerged from the "hellenistic" part of history. Basically a time people rejected old Gods like Zeus and believed in magic/miracle/souls/new science theories. Also new religions emerged:

One religion used and very much a big part of the society Jesus and his followers would have lived in was the Religion of Isis and her Son Horus
This is one of the key points:
This religion was invented my Pharaohs in Egypt and is well documented. The Pharaohs, in simple terms, invented this myth saying the Pharaoh was linked to Horus and the mother Isis. This was so the myth would enforce the power of the Pharaoh and make him have more standing in his power.

This myth was adapted by the "hellenistic period" again the society the Bible was written. As a main religion they got rid of the Pharaoh aspect and simply adapted very slightly. This religion and worshiped both Horus and Isis.

About Horus
Born of a Virgin
Only Son of God
Born of a stable/or cave
3 wise men
a Special star linked to him
Baptized in river, Baptist died soon after
12 Disciples
Performed Miracles
Tempted by Devil
Died on cross next to two thief's
In a tomb
Resurrected


Now if I hadn't said Horus at the top you would have all believed this to be about Jesus.
The story of Horus was around 1000+ years before Jesus'.



1000 years before Jesus you say! Wow. Well, Jesus was all those things you listed, and as you say, we'd all have said that described Jesus.

You know, with all this study and research you've done, you must be thinking that Jesus was horus.

Shall I conclude then you believe in horus? I can't imagine how you couldn't. 1000 years before you say! Wow.

And yet you don't believe in horus do you.

You ought to get my point by now.

givemegrace
Jun 7th 2008, 02:22 PM
Hi Cheeky Critter, I used to ask loads and loads of questions then I came to a place of peace, I knew in this life there would be lots of stuff I would not understand, all I know is that when my faith is strong I have hope and a purpose, I know in my heart that Jesus lives, sometimes I have doubt but we know too well that doubt is a very powerful tool of satans. God Bless you CC

ImmenseDisciple
Jun 7th 2008, 04:17 PM
Hey CC. I'm intruiged - how did you come to find yourself on a Christian Theology course?

I find it really bizarre that from what you've said, you've finished at least the first full year of your course - and yet you still think there's a possibility that there wasn't at the very least "a man behind the myth", the historical figure of Jesus, messiah or otherwise. Did your course not cover the historicity of the central character of the book you're studying? The idea that Christ wasn't a real historical character has long been abandoned by all serious biblical historians, including those who don't believe Him to be God.

Anyway - it already seems to have been well covered that the dozen similarities you've listed between the myth of horus and the life of Christ are largely inaccurate. I can understand being carried away having read that all 12 similarities link the two. 99.9% seems a bit much, but still, I can see where you're coming from :lol:

What do you make, then, of the hundreds of Old Testament prophecies, perfectly fulfilled in the life of Christ?