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Jesusinmyheart
Jun 5th 2008, 01:05 AM
I would like to toss out some verses, and have you think about their connection:

Exo 20:13 "You shall not murder.


Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.'
Mat 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.

Joh 20:23 If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld."


Luk 6:37 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

If you cannot have compassion and mercy, and forgive others, then you are in effect causing two people to die, your fellow being with whom you bore a grudge, and yourself.


Shalom,
Tanja

Zack702
Jun 5th 2008, 05:29 AM
Murder is when one human intentionally slays another.
The avenger of blood is the next of kin to who was murdered.

I consider that forgiving someone who is angry at his brother is a good thing.

I consider that forgiving someone who has murdered his brother is not a good thing (if I do I might feel in my heart I have helped him with his decision).

I consider that it is not a good thing to condemn someone unless I am forced by there hand to do so.

dan
Jun 5th 2008, 07:14 AM
I would like to toss out some verses, and have you think about their connection:

Exo 20:13 "You shall not murder.

REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear:
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.'
Mat 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.

Killing doesn't require anger


Joh 20:23 If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld."

But even if the murderer is forgiven, the pollution of his act is not removed from the earth, unless the murderer is killed.

NUM 35:31 You shall not take money of him that is guilty of blood, but he shall die forthwith.
NUM 35:32 The banished and fugitives before the death of the high priest may by no means return into their own cities.
NUM 35:33 Defile not the land of your habitation, which is stained with the blood of the innocent: neither can it otherwise be expiated, but by his blood that hath shed the blood of another.
NUM 35:34 And thus shall your possession he cleansed, myself abiding with you. For I am the Lord that dwell among the children of Israel.


Luk 6:37 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

As opposed to the bad man that does nothing?


If you cannot have compassion and mercy, and forgive others, then you are in effect causing two people to die, your fellow being with whom you bore a grudge, and yourself.

Shalom,
Tanja

IS 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

AMOS 9:10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 26th 2008, 01:49 PM
Examine yourselves:

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

How was the devil a murderer? He didn't kill Adam and Eve?
God explained this to me and startled me awake with this one morning.
He did kill Adam and Eve allright.
How?
He caused them to sin, and sin is the transgression of the law, and the wages of sin is death.

Be careful that you do not cause a brother or sister to stumble!
And since we are commanded to love our neighbor as ourselves, that applies to them also.

Oh how deep the sin is within us.

Shalom,
Tanja

Ron Brown
Jul 26th 2008, 07:03 PM
When it comes to killing men and murdering men in the Bible, you always have to go to the original manuscript languages, because there are many different Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic words used in the Bible for kill or murder.

There are 9 different Hebrew words used for KILL in the Old Testament.

1.nakah- smite, beat, slay: Gen 4:15
2.harag- kill, slay, murder, destroy: Gen 26:7
3.muwth- to die, kill, have one executed: Exo 1:16
4.shachat- to kill, slaughter, sacrifice: Exo 12:21
5.tabach- butcher, slay, slaughter: Exo 22:1
6.ratsach- murder, slay: Deu 5:17
7.zabach- sacrifice, slaughter, kill: Deu 12:21
8.chalal- slain, pierced, fatally wounded: Jud 20:31
9.naqaph- to strike off, round off: Isa 29:1

There are 6 different Greek words used for KILL in the New Testament

1.phoneuo- murder, slay, kill: Matt 5:21
2.apokteino- allow to perish, destroy: Matt 10:28
3.thyo- sacrifice, slaughter: Luke 15:23
4.anaireo- put out of the way, to take up, abolish: Luke 22:2
5.diacheirizo- lay hands on, govern, kill with one's own hand: Act 26:21
6.sphazo- slay, slaughter, put to death by violence: Rev 6:4

So as you can see, many different words are used, for many different kinds of killing in the Bible.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 26th 2008, 07:17 PM
Dear friend,
thanks for laying all that out!
Can you elaborate on why you posted all that information?

Thanks,
Tanja

Ron Brown
Jul 26th 2008, 07:31 PM
Dear friend,
thanks for laying all that out!
Can you elaborate on why you posted all that information?

Thanks,
Tanja

Because there is a huge difference between killing and murder, and some Christian people don't know this. This is why you must study Biblical language and grammar in the original manuscript languages, so you know what you are talking about when it comes to the Bible. Most Christians have no clue about language, grammar, and context when it comes to their study of scripture, so they never understand it the way God intends them to understand it.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 26th 2008, 08:56 PM
My friend,

I agree there are differences in the words, however what i'm addressing here is murder, plain and simple. To cut someone's life short by killing is not in God's plan and neither is when someone causes another to sin, both are murder.

Tanja

SweetSomber
Jul 26th 2008, 09:11 PM
My friend,

I agree there are differences in the words, however what i'm addressing here is murder, plain and simple. To cut someone's life short by killing is not in God's plan and neither is when someone causes another to sin, both are murder.

Tanja

You say that when someone causes another to sin, it is murder. What? Where is that found in the Bible?
It is sin, to be sure, but murder is a particular type of sin, different from adultery, theft, and other types of sin.
Why would causes another to sin be murder, Biblically?

Ron Brown
Jul 26th 2008, 09:16 PM
My friend,

I agree there are differences in the words, however what i'm addressing here is murder, plain and simple. To cut someone's life short by killing is not in God's plan and neither is when someone causes another to sin, both are murder.

Tanja

Not according to scripture.

Killing in War is not murder. God blesses David when he destroys the enemies of God with war in 2 Samuel 22:38-43.

Exodus 15:3- The LORD(Yehovah in the Hebrew) is a man of war; the LORD is his name.

In Revelation chapter 19, Christ returns to Earth to make war on all of his enemies, and he kills them all, and the birds pick their bones clean afterward.

Killing with the death penalty is not murder.

Deuteronomy 19:10-13- says that a murderer is to be put to death.

Exodus 21:22- says that a man who harms a child in it's mother's womb must be put to death. This also condones killing in self defense when protecting innocent women and children.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 26th 2008, 09:31 PM
You say that when someone causes another to sin, it is murder. What? Where is that found in the Bible?
It is sin, to be sure, but murder is a particular type of sin, different from adultery, theft, and other types of sin.
Why would causes another to sin be murder, Biblically?Ok, Sin is the transgression of the law, right?
And the wages of sin is death, right?

If you cause someone to sin as did the serpent in the Garden Eden, then you are a murder, because you are effectively leading someone into death through sin.

This is why Yeshua called the serpent a murderer from the beginning.

Did the serpent cause physical death?
Isn't spiritual death worse than a physical death?

Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 26th 2008, 09:36 PM
God blesses David when he destroys the enemies of God with war in 2 Samuel 22:38-43.
That's not the same thing: God left those to die because He knew they wouldn't repent and chose Him anyways. Had those people had an unction of repentance in them God would have stayed King David's hand.

Same goes for several more of your examples.


Killing with the death penalty is not murder.

That depends, if someone is not corrigible and unrepentant, then it is not murder.
However, if someone is repentant, then that person should not be put to death
"Mercy triumphs over judgment."


Deuteronomy 19:10-13- says that a murderer is to be put to death.

Exodus 21:22- says that a man who harms a child in it's mother's womb must be put to death. This also condones killing in self defense when protecting innocent women and children.

There's always the choice of mercy when warranted.

Tanja

Ron Brown
Jul 26th 2008, 09:41 PM
Did the serpent cause physical death?
Isn't spiritual death worse than a physical death?

Tanja

The serpent caused both. God never created mankind's spirit and body to be rendered apart, and their rendering apart after sin is an unnatural state for the body/soul pairing. We live in a fallen state, and when we die today, the unnatural rendering of body and spirit take place.

This is the blessed hope of all Christians, that when Christ returns for us we are resurrected from the grave or alive and caught up to meet him. Our body and soul will be transformed back into it's original un-corruptible and eternal state of the body/soul union. We will have a body just like Christ has.

SweetSomber
Jul 26th 2008, 09:44 PM
And the wages of sin is death, right?

Tanja

Ahh, but here's the thing: everyone since Adam chooses to sin without anyone causing them to do so. You can influence people to sin in worse ways, but they already have the death penalty hanging over their head.

Ron Brown
Jul 26th 2008, 09:46 PM
That's not the same thing: God left those to die because He knew they wouldn't repent and chose Him anyways. Had those people had an unction of repentance in them God would have stayed King David's hand.

Same goes for several more of your examples.

That depends, if someone is not corrigible and unrepentant, then it is not murder.
However, if someone is repentant, then that person should not be put to death
"Mercy triumphs over judgment."



There's always the choice of mercy when warranted.

Tanja

You don't make any sense? You say the unrepentant are justified to be killed, but nobody else is? And then you turn right back around and say nobody is to be killed? :confused

What kind of liberal hippie stuff is this? It's not from scripture. Scripture tells us that Christ himself is going to kill all of his enemies when he returns. Are you saying that Christ is a murderer for this?

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 26th 2008, 10:03 PM
Ahh, but here's the thing: everyone since Adam chooses to sin without anyone causing them to do so. You can influence people to sin in worse ways, but they already have the death penalty hanging over their head.

Really, we are choosing sin without a cause? Think again! Didn't the very fall of man cause us to be in this state to begin with?

And how often does it happen that someone does something to make you angry, and bam, you're sinning.

Just seeing things in today;'s world that seem quite innocent are leading us into sin. Some of the obvious is the way women today dress, and are influenced to dress so that they may be considered worthy of society to look at.

Those are just a few examples. Yes, the choice to sin is yours. I never said the accountability for a sin we commited was any less if someone caused us to.

Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 26th 2008, 10:08 PM
You don't make any sense? You say the unrepentant are justified to be killed, but nobody else is? And then you turn right back around and say nobody is to be killed?

What kind of liberal hippie stuff is this? It's not from scripture. Scripture tells us that Christ himself is going to kill all of his enemies when he returns. Are you saying that Christ is a murderer for this?I think you misread my post.
Let me rephrase this:

I said that those who won't repent are dead to begin with, so killing them is not murder.
Someone who shows themselves to be repentant should not be killed because they have a chance at life.

I never denied that Christ Himself will kill as God has done before in the OT, however this is not murder, because those people are already dead.

Hippie stuff????? If this continues i will have to withdraw from this thread due to the unkindness.

Shalom,
Tanja

Ron Brown
Jul 26th 2008, 11:15 PM
I think you misread my post.
Let me rephrase this:

I said that those who won't repent are dead to begin with, so killing them is not murder.
Someone who shows themselves to be repentant should not be killed because they have a chance at life.

I never denied that Christ Himself will kill as God has done before in the OT, however this is not murder, because those people are already dead.

Hippie stuff????? If this continues i will have to withdraw from this thread due to the unkindness.

Shalom,
Tanja

Ok, now I understand what you are saying. This post is much clearer to my dense, thick head. At first I thought you were spouting off some secular liberal agenda about all killing being wrong in all cases, when scripture clearly states that both God and Christ kill. Sorry I misunderstood you the first time. Forgive me?:hug:

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 26th 2008, 11:25 PM
You're forgiven Bro! :hug:

I thought i was easy enough to understand so i thought you were being malicious. Forgive me also.

Tanja

Ron Brown
Jul 27th 2008, 12:02 AM
You're forgiven Bro! :hug:

I thought i was easy enough to understand so i thought you were being malicious. Forgive me also.

Tanja

It problably was easy for most to understand, but I'm thick headed, and I went to public school, and I have a bachelor of arts degree in illustration, so now you see which side of my brain works best.:B

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 27th 2008, 12:34 AM
:lol: no worries ...... it happens........I'm a woman and to you that may have added to the confusion, by means of expression.

Tanja

awestruckchild
Jul 27th 2008, 02:34 AM
Thank you for this thread Tanja.
He has given you so much understanding!
Your op made me gasp and scare my kitty!

threebigrocks
Jul 27th 2008, 02:51 AM
Ok, Sin is the transgression of the law, right?
And the wages of sin is death, right?

If you cause someone to sin as did the serpent in the Garden Eden, then you are a murder, because you are effectively leading someone into death through sin.

This is why Yeshua called the serpent a murderer from the beginning.

Did the serpent cause physical death?
Isn't spiritual death worse than a physical death?


Why would a Christian, a true Christian, knowingly tempt someone into sin? Aren't we supposed to avoid sin, to go and sin no more once we are born again? We are not to fear satan - but fear Him who can throw body AND soul into hell. If our spirit has no life, and we are unrepentant, our bodies will follow.


I think you misread my post.
Let me rephrase this:

I said that those who won't repent are dead to begin with, so killing them is not murder.
Someone who shows themselves to be repentant should not be killed because they have a chance at life.

I never denied that Christ Himself will kill as God has done before in the OT, however this is not murder, because those people are already dead.


Who are we to say that someone won't repent, that it's impossible? With God, all things are possible. That is judging the heart.

The law of the land doesn't much care a wit about the persons repentance. If the law calls for it, and the guilty party's sentence is death by lethal injection that's it. If they are repentant, truly and honestly from the heart repentant for their sin, turn to God - death is gain for them.

Eaglenester
Jul 27th 2008, 03:09 AM
Thank you for this thread Tanja.
He has given you so much understanding!
Your op made me gasp and scare my kitty!

I agree and second that motion.

The problem is Tanja, is you are looking at death and murder from Yahweh's perspective, most view it from a temporal level.

awestruckchild
Jul 27th 2008, 03:19 AM
I agree and second that motion.

The problem is Tanja, is you are looking at death and murder from Yahweh's perspective, most view it from a temporal level.

Yes!
But they have no other option but to do so until they receive the Holy Spirit to learn from.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 27th 2008, 04:03 AM
TBR,


Why would a Christian, a true Christian, knowingly tempt someone into sin? Aren't we supposed to avoid sin, to go and sin no more once we are born again? We are not to fear satan - but fear Him who can throw body AND soul into hell. If our spirit has no life, and we are unrepentant, our bodies will follow.

I am a believer or christian, yet i fall and i know for a fact i have caused others to stumble.
It's not something i did with full knowledge, yet it is a sin, and worse what i did was murder, in that it caused others to sin. It really doesn't matter so much whether it was knowingly or not. Sin is sin, however in a believer i think a sin comitted unknowingly is easily forgiven. Just as i would forgive my daughter much more easily for something she did unknowingly or out of lack of experience.
Perhaps as this is sinking into my heart i may not make anyone stumble again, but i doubt it. We are so very sinful in nature.

How easy is it to make your brother angry without even wanting to. Even when you know, something might pop up and you will have your brother angry and sinful.

whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council;
The least you can expect is mnto be dragged before the council.

God is teaching me how very careful we have to be. Love is something that needs to be practised and trained.


Who are we to say that someone won't repent, that it's impossible? With God, all things are possible. That is judging the heart.

We sinners can hardly make that judgment i agree with you on that, and i didn't say we should judge.
Therefore the death penalty should hardly be applied and used as it is.

God however has in the past given it to His people to carry out judgment however as you said our secular legal system hardly would care if a murdered repented or a rapist was sorry.....

I can't however agree that death is a gain for those who repent and are killed, it is possible, but how on earth are they to show repentance.... If they have time to turn to God and change then perhaps it is in their favor.
But they will never be allowed to contribute back.... It's cutting short a life which could still be more fruitful.

Anyways, i wasn't trying to say we should judge people to be killed or not.

What i was saying though is that God has judged people to be unrepentant, and they were killed before they could cause more mayhem in the flesh and leaven those still there. Those who are unrepentant are dead because of their sins.... why keep them around? I know that sounds harsh, but God will again weed all that fluff out that causes so much trouble.

Shalom,
Tanja