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IamBill
Jun 5th 2008, 01:16 AM
Many know where this topic comes from.

The serpent's words concerning the Fruit -
Gen 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof,
then your eyes shall be opened,
and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

"then your eyes shall be opened"
(we know that to be true- it happened)

"and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
was that true ?

God said - "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."


?

calidog
Jun 5th 2008, 01:39 AM
I think satan mixed a lie with truth. We are not gods but we know evil and good.

God said we will surely die, and we certainly die.

crawfish
Jun 5th 2008, 01:51 AM
One would assume that A&E knew nothing of right and wrong before eating of the tree - pure, unadulterated innocence. So, in effect, the serpent was telling the truth - we are "like gods" in that we now know the difference between good and evil. The text implies nothing further.

It just shows that the truth can be dangerous when delivered by one with evil intent.

Vhayes
Jun 5th 2008, 02:01 AM
I was also taught that where it reads:
"for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
it would be better read:
"for in the day that thou eatest thereof dying thou shalt surely die."

Adam and Eve DID surely die that day spiritually and they eventually died physically.

IamBill
Jun 5th 2008, 02:41 AM
Isn't anyone concerned that the serpent used the "name of the tree" as a means to "tempt" ?

ARCHER42
Jun 5th 2008, 02:46 AM
Well for those who 'truly' believe that they can 'become like God' or become 'little gods'.... that spiritual apple must taste pretty good... :eek:;) I"m glad I"m not keen on spiritual apples.... for I trust in that New Adam.. to help me discern good and evil.... He teaches us to take a bite out of that 'strong meat'.... yum yum.....;);):)

IamBill
Jun 5th 2008, 03:01 AM
Well for those who 'truly' believe that they can 'become like God' or become 'little gods'.... that spiritual apple must taste pretty good... :eek:;) I"m glad I"m not keen on spiritual apples.... for I trust in that New Adam.. to help me discern good and evil.... He teaches us to take a bite out of that 'strong meat'.... yum yum.....;);):)

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Triple thumbs on that one :)

ARCHER42
Jun 5th 2008, 03:37 AM
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Triple thumbs on that one :)


;););););):thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: :agree:

fewarechosen
Jun 5th 2008, 03:46 AM
hmmm this has me thinking

first i think we would have to figure out our definition of "gods" cause its not GODS.

second we were made in Gods image.

and to sheep and cattle and ants and everything on earth are we not a form of gods to them ?

able to kill who we will, pen them up do whatever we want, move mountains whatever.

i dont really care if we are gods or not gods and of what other gods there are --for they are not GOD

so i think it depends alot on the definition of gods

the other thing is God does not lie even for dramatic effect --- so when he says behold they have become like one of us , who is one of us ? -- he is not the author of confusion

22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

( on a side note not to derail threads as i often do -- it was very interesting bill your info on the tree --because i remembered christ saying- let the dead bury thier dead.
everyone walking around without the spirit is dead )

fewarechosen
Jun 5th 2008, 03:49 AM
One would assume that A&E knew nothing of right and wrong before eating of the tree - pure, unadulterated innocence. So, in effect, the serpent was telling the truth - we are "like gods" in that we now know the difference between good and evil. The text implies nothing further.

It just shows that the truth can be dangerous when delivered by one with evil intent.


great last line crawfish

theleast
Jun 5th 2008, 03:56 AM
Unfortunatly according to my concordance it can be defined as; of the supreme God, or as a superlative angels.

The Spirit leads me to read it as angels.

However remember it doesn't say we will be like gods period, only that we will be like gods in having knowledge of good and evil, and certainly we have knowledge of that.

Zack702
Jun 5th 2008, 04:01 AM
If I consider that the serpent tempted Eve and she gave into it's temptation then I should think that both Adam and Eve were already capable of sin before eating the fruit. Because god said do not eat of this kind but yet they were tempted to do so before eating it.

I consider that while they thought they would be as gods knowing good and evil instead because of the sin in going against The Lords will and taking the fruit without proper preparation they gained mostly evil emotions such as shame , fear and paranoia because they covered themselves and hid from The Lord. And from these complex emotions they began to reason things for themselves instead of following the commandments of The Lord.

They made clothes to cover themselves which makes me wonder if they began to have visions of crafty works such as woodworking and metal working all coming from the knowledge of good and evil.

I also consider that the temptation and the taking of the fruit was necessary in order for them to have total free will and reasoning. And to set them lose in the world that was full of wild things that do not know nor consider good from evil. So they would be prepared to do what is necessary and live in the world on there own and multiply and subdue the earth.

It's kind of cool to think that the fruit was there all along waiting for Adam and Eve in case they got really bored.

SIG
Jun 5th 2008, 04:30 AM
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof,
then your eyes shall be opened,
and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Hello? This is Satan telling Adam and Eve what God supposedly knows. Folks--consider the source! Why would we give this statement ANY credence?

crawfish
Jun 5th 2008, 07:37 AM
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof,
then your eyes shall be opened,
and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Hello? This is Satan telling Adam and Eve what God supposedly knows. Folks--consider the source! Why would we give this statement ANY credence?

Because God confirms it in verse 22?

Honestly, people, I think we need to get past the "you will be like God..." part. The tempter was not referring to the gaining of some supernatural power; ONLY to the power of discernment. In this, the tempter did not lie. The serpent's deception came in telling them that they would not die that day. For they did die that day - not physically, but spiritually - and the opportunity for eternal life was denied them.

As in our lives, the BEST deceptions are wrapped in truth, because they are more difficult to discern.

Teke
Jun 5th 2008, 01:29 PM
Many know where this topic comes from.

The serpent's words concerning the Fruit -
Gen 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof,
then your eyes shall be opened,
and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

"then your eyes shall be opened"
(we know that to be true- it happened)

"and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
was that true ?

God said - "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."


?

The devil might as well have said, you can judge better than God can if you eat this fruit. Just be earthy and materialistic about it.

IamBill
Jun 5th 2008, 06:50 PM
Because God confirms it in verse 22?

Honestly, people, I think we need to get past the "you will be like God..." part. The tempter was not referring to the gaining of some supernatural power; ONLY to the power of discernment. In this, the tempter did not lie. The serpent's deception came in telling them that they would not die that day. For they did die that day - not physically, but spiritually - and the opportunity for eternal life was denied them.

As in our lives, the BEST deceptions are wrapped in truth, because they are more difficult to discern.

:hmm:
why is the "power of discernment" a 'gift' from God then if we inherited it from A/E ? Does that make any sense ?

verse 22? -If we read Very close in 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
In verse 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked ...

So that much was truth !
and the opening of their eyes was "the Death" of what they were

now read 22 -And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: (referring to satan's words)

God does not mention "And the eyes of them both were opened" (which was Truth)God says- Behold "the Man"- (who WAS in Gods image before eating)

is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
confirmation ? or sarcasm ?
:hmm:

crawfish
Jun 5th 2008, 07:35 PM
:hmm:
why is the "power of discernment" a 'gift' from God then if we inherited it from A/E ? Does that make any sense ?

verse 22? -If we read Very close in 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
In verse 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked ...

So that much was truth !
and the opening of their eyes was "the Death" of what they were

now read 22 -And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: (referring to satan's words)

God does not mention "And the eyes of them both were opened" (which was Truth)God says- Behold "the Man"- (who WAS in Gods image before eating)

is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
confirmation ? or sarcasm ?
:hmm:

So...to clarify, you're suggesting that the only thing A&E knew after eating the apple was that they were naked? And God was mocking them in verse 22?

SweetSomber
Jun 5th 2008, 08:07 PM
only that we will be like gods in having knowledge of good and evil, and certainly we have knowledge of that.

I agree that the main deception/temptation was for Adam and Eve to be like God - the whole pride thing that originally brought down Satan. Now, after the fall, there is death in the world as God promised, and we know some good and evil.

But here's the thing, we know some of what is good and what is evil (ie murder is always wrong), we do not know it like God does. For example, transgression is disobeying the law, but iniquity is merely going against God's will, even to do good things! Doing good things when God has told us to do something else is iniquity, and even the Jews offered sacrificed for sins they had committed unknowingly. Sin is also a heart attitude, and God knows our heart, but our heart, to us, is deceitful above all things. God knows the answer about every "gray area" that we humans wonder about. People say that what is good is evil sometimes, even christians (for example, when you correct someone in love, and they call it judgmental) and that what is evil is good.

Do we really, then certainly have knowledge of that? Hardly. It's still a temptation to humans to know what is right and wrong - I've had christians try to tell me that they are 100% sure what God's will is for my life (about things that the scripture does not talk about). Becoming legalistic and seeing everything in black and white is a temptation to people. (even for such far fetched ideas as if you have a beard, you do not honor the Lord)

Even today, we must be careful to maintain a humble attitude in realizing that God has knowledge and wisdom, and we, though always learning from Him, will never be completely accurately even about what is right and wrong. Until we are in heaven, I do not believe that we will have His understanding of what is right and wrong.

IamBill
Jun 5th 2008, 08:08 PM
So...to clarify, you're suggesting that the only thing A&E knew after eating the apple was that they were naked? And God was mocking them in verse 22?

No I didn't say "mocking"
what we today call "sarcasm" -> :rolleyes:

and :lol: I haven't found "apple" anywhere in there either but, meh, tradition ;)

what did they know after eating ?
Yes naked, they seen flesh for the first time and tried to cover themselves (I know - tradition implies they made little bra/undies to cover their privet parts)

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked...
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree

Any particular "great knowledge" you see there ?

I don't imagine they knew WHAT happened to them beside becoming 100% flesh. reading on though, it is evident they know blame, fear, (and the game hide/seek :) )

IamBill
Jun 5th 2008, 08:14 PM
However remember it doesn't say we will be like gods period, only that we will be like gods in having knowledge of good and evil, and certainly we have knowledge of that.

do we really ? or do we just like to think so ?
Man has a pretty arrogant nature.

and Discernment is a "Gift" from God !

:hmm:

crawfish
Jun 5th 2008, 08:45 PM
No I didn't say "mocking"
what we today call "sarcasm" -> :rolleyes:

Yeah, like that makes any difference. :rolleyes: ;)



and :lol: I haven't found "apple" anywhere in there either but, meh, tradition ;)

...I hate to admit it, but I am a bit :blushsad: here.


what did they know after eating ?
Yes naked, they seen flesh for the first time and tried to cover themselves (I know - tradition implies they made little bra/undies to cover their privet parts)

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked...
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree

Any particular "great knowledge" you see there ?

I don't imagine they knew WHAT happened to them beside becoming 100% flesh. reading on though, it is evident they know blame, fear, (and the game hide/seek :) )

Depends what "naked" means - symbolically, they are now aware of the wrong that they now are capable of doing, and "covering up" is symbolic of what we do to try and hide our sin from God. The great knowledge is that they are now able to discern between what is right and what is wrong, which was beyond them before. Innocence is lost.

crawfish
Jun 5th 2008, 08:47 PM
do we really ? or do we just like to think so ?
Man has a pretty arrogant nature.

and Discernment is a "Gift" from God !

:hmm:

I think we're using "discernment" differently here. There is a level of discernment that allows us to draw conclusions and make judgments from scripture. Here, we're just using the word to describe the ability to discern good and evil (one would assume they couldn't sin before because they were too innocent to know they were doing anything wrong - like when my kids were young and they'd run naked out the front door).

IamBill
Jun 5th 2008, 09:29 PM
but by that logic, weren't they then incapable of "sinning" at all ?

How could the act (eating) be considered "a sin" if they were incapable of knowing the difference was before hand - innocent ! they didn't know ?

I'm not trying to be a pain,(btw), it's just that the traditional teachings carry paradox within.

If they didn't know good/evil, right/wrong before hand, they are not guilty of disobeying God, they didn't know any better.

If Adam was created in "God's Image" -wouldn't he have had at least a (bit) of intelligence ?
:hmm:

ARCHER42
Jun 5th 2008, 09:37 PM
I should correct myself.. I mentioned spiritual apple.. the Word says fruit. who knows what it was.. an apple, plum, peach... I dont know if those are considered fruit... I stand corrrected...;)

IamBill
Jun 5th 2008, 09:42 PM
:lol: THAT isn't the important part though right ;)

SIG
Jun 5th 2008, 09:49 PM
Because God confirms it in verse 22?

Honestly, people, I think we need to get past the "you will be like God..." part. The tempter was not referring to the gaining of some supernatural power; ONLY to the power of discernment. In this, the tempter did not lie. The serpent's deception came in telling them that they would not die that day. For they did die that day - not physically, but spiritually - and the opportunity for eternal life was denied them.

As in our lives, the BEST deceptions are wrapped in truth, because they are more difficult to discern.

SIG: From Matthew Henry's commentary:
" How they were justly disgraced and shamed before God and the holy angels, by the ironical upbraiding of them with the issue of their enterprise: "Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil! A goodly god he makes! Does he not? See what he has got, what preferments, what advantages, by eating forbidden fruit!’’ This was said to awaken and humble them, and to bring them to a sense of their sin and folly, and to repentance for it, that, seeing themselves thus wretchedly deceived by following the devil’s counsel, they might henceforth pursue the happiness God should offer in the way he should prescribe. God thus fills their faces with shame, that they may seek his name, Ps. 83:16. He puts them to this confusion, in order to their conversion. True penitents will thus upbraid themselves: "What fruit have I now by sin? Rom. 6:21. Have I gained what I foolishly promised myself in a sinful way? No, no, it never proved what it pretended to, but the contrary.’’

I've looked at two commentaries now; one proposes God was being sarcastic here, and Matthew Henry proposes ironic.

Satan seemed truthful, but the outcome, though true in a literal sense, was quite different than what he led Adam and Eve to expect. His apparent truth concealed the lie--and still does.

I'll stick to my guns--Satan lied. Besides--Jesus confirmed it...

IamBill
Jun 5th 2008, 09:52 PM
odd hey ? such a small Chapter, many believe it is no more that an expansion of the 6th day, many believe all sorts of veiws.

But if we drop all we have been told, and READ what it says in that handful of verses, ALLOT of questions rise. which tells 'me' there is more to it than that.

Is God trying to confuse us or are we over complicating things.

theleast
Jun 5th 2008, 09:53 PM
God is truth and he calls it the tree of the knowledge of good and evil....

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

And yet we ate of it, and it gave us the knowledge of good and evil else how would we have known we were naked?

theleast
Jun 5th 2008, 09:55 PM
odd hey ? such a small Chapter, many believe it is no more that an expansion of the 6th day, many believe all sorts of veiws.

But if we drop all we have been told, and READ what it says in that handful of verses, ALLOT of questions rise. which tells 'me' there is more to it than that.

Is God trying to confuse us or are we over complicating things.

God is not the author of confusion...

1 Corinthians 14:33 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1 Corinthians+14:33&version=9)
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints

So yeah...lol....its us over complicating it as usual.

IamBill
Jun 5th 2008, 10:05 PM
Aye SIG

(perhaps "ironic/irony" is the proper word, I've been know to use the wrong ones :lol: )

this may be interesting to some--
I have searched and searched (not that I am good at this), using four keywords
- gods, know, good, evil - in different combinations of the 4 and all 4.

Besides Gen 3:5, In ALLLLL the different combinations, was - Isaiah 41:23
Not that it applies or not -
41:23 Show the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

and this follows-

24 Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.

ARCHER42
Jun 5th 2008, 10:31 PM
:lol: THAT isn't the important part though right ;)


You took the words right out of my mouth...lol... I was going to say that...;);)

BroRog
Jun 5th 2008, 11:12 PM
and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Is it possible that to "know" good and evil, in this context, is to decide for yourself what is good and what isn't?

It's true; To "know" something is to be cognizant or aware of something; but we might also have firsthand knowledge of it -- to experience it personally for ourselves. And often times, to know right from wrong for ourselves, is to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong.

Isn't the act of moral innovation a "godlike" act? (in a bad way?)

daughter
Jun 5th 2008, 11:33 PM
I don't even know my arse from my elbow... hang on, did I just admit that on an open forum???

Carry on!!

theleast
Jun 5th 2008, 11:38 PM
and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Is it possible that to "know" good and evil, in this context, is to decide for yourself what is good and what isn't?

It's true; To "know" something is to be cognizant or aware of something; but we might also have firsthand knowledge of it -- to experience it personally for ourselves. And often times, to know right from wrong for ourselves, is to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong.

Isn't the act of moral innovation a "godlike" act? (in a bad way?)

Good point, perhaps it means both. ;)

Yukerboy
Jun 6th 2008, 01:03 AM
7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet

Does this refer to knowledge of good and evil?

Just throwing the thought out there. I think Adam and Eve had knowledge of good and evil just as they would have had everlasting life had they eaten of the tree of life. (Which, by the way, would have been the first tree I went after, but A/E didn't, perhaps because they knew nothing about death?)

Yuke

crawfish
Jun 6th 2008, 01:25 AM
but by that logic, weren't they then incapable of "sinning" at all ?

How could the act (eating) be considered "a sin" if they were incapable of knowing the difference was before hand - innocent ! they didn't know ?

Well, as far as I can tell they knew one thing they shouldn't do. Eating of the tree of knowledge clued them in on the other things that they shouldn't do...


I'm not trying to be a pain,(btw), it's just that the traditional teachings carry paradox within.

Hey, I don't mind. I'm usually the pain in these discussions. :)


If they didn't know good/evil, right/wrong before hand, they are not guilty of disobeying God, they didn't know any better.

If Adam was created in "God's Image" -wouldn't he have had at least a (bit) of intelligence ?
:hmm:

Well, reading the story it's hard to justify that the tree did nothing. I actually see the tree as a choice; they had the choice between innocence in eternity with God (the tree of life), and knowledge/loss of innocence and death. Knowledge itself is appealing, just like the fruit of the tree; its allure pulls us from pure, godly living into a life of sin.

I also don't see it as literal, but that's a topic for another thread. :)

IamBill
Jun 6th 2008, 01:34 AM
I don't even know my arse from my elbow... hang on, did I just admit that on an open forum???

Carry on!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

That was great ;) :)

IamBill
Jun 6th 2008, 01:55 AM
and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Is it possible that to "know" good and evil, in this context, is to decide for yourself what is good and what isn't?

It's true; To "know" something is to be cognizant or aware of something; but we might also have firsthand knowledge of it -- to experience it personally for ourselves. And often times, to know right from wrong for ourselves, is to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong.

Isn't the act of moral innovation a "godlike" act? (in a bad way?)

very good point.
I would like to say though, I spent many many hours trying "to fit" the meaning of what I read in these verses to what most feel they mean. I've tried to bend them this way and that so I could understand why I don't get it.
Then, one day the HS read this TO me, and I was like WOW, I am trying to adapt satan's words into truth !

Though that makes sense the way you put it :) you Must remember to keep this part of that in mind - and ye shall be as gods

God TOLD us - for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
THAT is what GOD said the fruit does
:)

Yukerboy
Jun 6th 2008, 02:01 AM
Wow, I did the same thing as you did Iambill. God never said that the fruit would make them as gods.

It was later when God said "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever"

IamBill
Jun 6th 2008, 02:13 AM
I think Adam and Eve had knowledge of good and evil just as they would have had everlasting life had they eaten of the tree of life. (Which, by the way, would have been the first tree I went after, but A/E didn't, perhaps because they knew nothing about death?)

Yuke

Yes, and they must have known about death too - "thou shalt surely die" God warned them.
Pointless if they didn't know what it meant :hmm:

Eve added to God's words 3 .... God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

(I imagine the serpent hearing this then slips around in and through the tree/fruit in front of A/E - "Ye shall not surely die")

A/E -> :o :o :hmm:

Yukerboy
Jun 6th 2008, 02:18 AM
(I imagine the serpent hearing this then slips around in and through the tree/fruit in front of A/E - "Ye shall not surely die")


I'm sorry, I had just had this huge funny hit me.

There's the serpent wrapped around a fruit, then he starts gasping and hacking then lays still. Just when A/E approach him, he starts moving again, smiling at them.

Yuke

Zack702
Jun 6th 2008, 02:30 AM
Well, reading the story it's hard to justify that the tree did nothing. I actually see the tree as a choice; they had the choice between innocence in eternity with God (the tree of life), and knowledge/loss of innocence and death. Knowledge itself is appealing, just like the fruit of the tree; its allure pulls us from pure, godly living into a life of sin.

Hey great way to put it in words. This is how I imagined that choice also. I also consider it is probably more complex than I think. So i wonder many things about it sometimes.

For example I consider it was Eve's choice having been beguiled to eat.
But was it a choice for Adam ?
I think that it is highly likely that Adam knew what the fruit looked like. So then he should of known what the fruit was before he ate it. (kind of like a Romeo and Juliet thing)
But it could also be possible he didn't know it was the forbidden fruit and so he had no choice in the matter.

IamBill
Jun 6th 2008, 02:43 AM
Well, reading the story it's hard to justify that the tree did nothing. I actually see the tree as a choice; they had the choice between innocence in eternity with God (the tree of life), and knowledge/loss of innocence and death. Knowledge itself is appealing, just like the fruit of the tree; its allure pulls us from pure, godly living into a life of sin.

I also don't see it as literal, but that's a topic for another thread. :)

Oh, that's right No prob, but it does first have to be literally read.
What I am trying to point out here doesn't negate all the wonderful things it teaches.

But Yes the fruit Did in FACT do something God said - 2:17 ... thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Yes they lived around 900 years afterward - AS FLESH
3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked ....
They were Not "Blind" - They were created in "God's image"- SPIRIT/flesh
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him

2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

divaD
Jun 6th 2008, 02:45 AM
Here's some food for thought. Try reading these verses like this. If nothing else, I feel it adds clarity as to how the serpent was deceiving the woman.
Perhaps to be like gods, knowing good and evil, is equivalent to becoming wise, and not to be confused with 'as in a supernatural sense'??


For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food

then your eyes shall be opened
and that it was pleasant to the eyes

and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil
and a tree to be desired to make one wise

theleast
Jun 6th 2008, 02:47 AM
I think you guys are missing one little point about this fruit. I think you are picturing an apple or a pear or some other vegatable that they "ate".

:o Maybe that isn't the case?

Maybe...just maybe it means something else. :D

IamBill
Jun 6th 2008, 02:53 AM
Wow, I did the same thing as you did Iambill. God never said that the fruit would make them as gods.

It was later when God said "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever"

:) Yes, and the tone of voice seemed QUIET (sarcastic/ironic) "BEHOLD -THE MAN"

(now go - till and toil and sweat -- like the "gods ye are" :rolleyes: )

IamBill
Jun 6th 2008, 02:57 AM
I'm sorry, I had just had this huge funny hit me.

There's the serpent wrapped around a fruit, then he starts gasping and hacking then lays still. Just when A/E approach him, he starts moving again, smiling at them.

Yuke

:lol: stands and fixes his new tux

IamBill
Jun 6th 2008, 03:00 AM
Here's some food for thought. Try reading these verses like this. If nothing else, I feel it adds clarity as to how the serpent was deceiving the woman.
Perhaps to be like gods, knowing good and evil, is equivalent to becoming wise, and not to be confused with 'as in a supernatural sense'??


For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food

then your eyes shall be opened
and that it was pleasant to the eyes

and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil
and a tree to be desired to make one wise

isn't that re-writing scripture !
edit: ah I see what you are saying. But no I don't suggest trying to fit "satan's words" into the truth

divaD
Jun 6th 2008, 04:00 AM
[B] But no I don't suggest trying to fit "satan's words" into the truth


Actually, what i posted has nothing to do with trying to fit satan's words into the truth. I'm just trying to show how the serpent was continually deceiving the woman. The deception was that he was giving God the credit for something that was his idea.

IamBill
Jun 6th 2008, 04:14 AM
Actually, what i posted has nothing to do with trying to fit satan's words into the truth. I'm just trying to show how the serpent was continually deceiving the woman. The deception was that he was giving God the credit for something that was his idea.

I knew I was missing something there :blush: - I'm sorry.

And That is very good way of putting it. And Wow hey ? it is still working even to this day.
When we realize this it really hits home, we give satan's words more weight than God's words.

Yukerboy
Jun 6th 2008, 01:47 PM
I think you guys are missing one little point about this fruit. I think you are picturing an apple or a pear or some other vegatable that they "ate".

Maybe that isn't the case?

Maybe...just maybe it means something else.

SHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

That would be considered almost blasphemic. True perhaps, but almost blasphemic.

Of course it wasn't "an apple or a pear or some other vegatable that they "ate"."

I think it was a watermelon tree.

Yuke

IamBill
Jun 6th 2008, 03:17 PM
I think you guys are missing one little point about this fruit. I think you are picturing an apple or a pear or some other vegatable that they "ate".

:o Maybe that isn't the case?

Maybe...just maybe it means something else. :D

:lol: I think maybe you haven't followed the whole thread ? ;)

BroRog
Jun 6th 2008, 07:26 PM
7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet

Does this refer to knowledge of good and evil?

Just throwing the thought out there. I think Adam and Eve had knowledge of good and evil just as they would have had everlasting life had they eaten of the tree of life. (Which, by the way, would have been the first tree I went after, but A/E didn't, perhaps because they knew nothing about death?)

Yuke

Very astute if I may say so. :)

IamBill
Jun 9th 2008, 03:42 PM
If we Knew good and evil,(as we would like to think we do) we would not likely be sinners. Who is without sin ?

What most All man born from that point on was born with and inability to Grasp what exists within these fleshy bodies. The phase "born into sin" is correct in that we are born into flesh. But the point has been lost,(or was never seen) We were "blinded(died) to the Spirit within us", "the Image of God", the "Soul", the "Consciousness" (whatever your choice of word).

The part that Lives beyond this world and flesh.


John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


.

faith&charity
Jun 10th 2008, 12:34 PM
The part that confuses me is that Satan spoke part of the truth here. He said they would know good and evil, like God. He didn't say they would become God, but that they would be like Him, and have to deal with sin.

In 1 John it says that Satan is the father of all lies. It's his nature; he can't do anything but lie. So how could he tell the truth here by telling Adam and Eve that they could discern good and evil? He's predicting the outcome of the human race and accurately at that. He mixes a lie with the truth. As far as i know, Satan can't even speak the truth.

Is that even possible for Satan?

IamBill
Jun 10th 2008, 06:43 PM
satan will do anything to deceive, whether it be outright lie or a simple yet clever "twist" of the truth.

The only truth he spoke to A/E was -
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened...

This part was deception to create "Desire" -
...and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

crawfish
Jun 10th 2008, 07:53 PM
In 1 John it says that Satan is the father of all lies. It's his nature; he can't do anything but lie. So how could he tell the truth here by telling Adam and Eve that they could discern good and evil? He's predicting the outcome of the human race and accurately at that. He mixes a lie with the truth. As far as i know, Satan can't even speak the truth.

Is that even possible for Satan?

I think that's a misunderstanding. Someone who lies 100% of the time is nearly as reliable as somebody who tells the truth; you can trust what they say to not be true.

The most dangerous type of lie is the one that's wrapped in truth.

IamBill
Jun 10th 2008, 08:03 PM
:thumbsup: reps on that one my friend :)

faith&charity
Jun 10th 2008, 08:13 PM
I think that's a misunderstanding. Someone who lies 100% of the time is nearly as reliable as somebody who tells the truth; you can trust what they say to not be true.

The most dangerous type of lie is the one that's wrapped in truth.

Ah, i see now. Satan will do anything for us to distrust God.

IamBill
Jun 11th 2008, 01:42 PM
Ah, i see now. Satan will do anything for us to distrust God.

Yes, but not unnecessarily "the goal".

Distrust, Lead away from truth, even alternate truth - Anything !

satan wanted to be held equal to and/or above God, and we see in Eden that that is exactly what he implied the tree could do for A/E, a sort of equal to - a superior, higher status.

Each one of us is "the temple" (some do not believe this), and satan would just love for us to believe/claim to be "like God", or even "to be gods" -within the temple.

fewarechosen
Jun 11th 2008, 01:53 PM
Yes, but not unnecessarily "the goal".

Distrust, Lead away from truth, even alternate truth - Anything !

satan wanted to be held equal to and/or above God, and we see in Eden that that is exactly what he implied the tree could do for A/E, a sort of equal to - a superior, higher status.

Each one of us is "the temple" (some do not believe this), and satan would just love for us to believe/claim to be "like God", or even "to be gods" -within the temple.

great point with us being the temple -- good reminder

see i might be having trouble grasping this part

when satan says you will be as gods its not-- Gods

so in my mind a god might as well be an ant or a piece of dung --its not God so who cares

so its sort of like if a angel came to me rigth now and said your a god

it would change nothing --im still trying to get into God
and he is still all powerfull and i am still nothing

but maybe its just in the translation of him not saying Gods with a capital --cause then yes obviously thats way crazy

IamBill
Jun 11th 2008, 02:33 PM
Yes true, (and wise ;) )

But this was satan talking to A/E, and we are only observing(reading) what took place there in Eden - between them (satan/Adam/Eve). We don't realize that we are being shown the deception that "took place". Instead, we read it as "oh, Knowledge was gained".

But it was not, it was the lie/deception that A/E fell for, The only "knowing" man gained from that day forth is to "experience"(know) good and evil through Flesh.

"for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
"neither shall ye touch it" -Eve added that part and satan used her own words to imply that God was being deceptive/hiding something about the fruit. ( I imagine satan was touching it)
Ye shall not surely die
Why did A/E believe those words ?

fewarechosen
Jun 11th 2008, 02:44 PM
ok thanks , i totally agree with you.

just wasnt clear to me , but now i totally see your point

Zack702
Jun 13th 2008, 03:04 AM
Does anyone here believe that Adam and Eve could communicate with animals before they ate the fruit of good and evil?

Does anyone here find the irony in the words tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

good = obey the Lord who said don't eat it.
evil = disobey the Lord and eat it.

And the sin made them aware of that.

Temptation is a part of learning.

IamBill
Jun 13th 2008, 04:10 PM
Does anyone here find the irony in the words tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

good = obey the Lord who said don't eat it.
evil = disobey the Lord and eat it.

And the sin made them aware of that.

Temptation is a part of learning.

"Temptation" are the works of satan, Not God :) -but yes, God allows it


"And the sin made them aware of that" - PARADOX !

Zack702
Jun 14th 2008, 03:05 PM
"Temptation" are the works of satan, Not God :) -but yes, God allows it


"And the sin made them aware of that" - PARADOX !

So your saying this "Satan" tempted you to post this reply?
Then you are saying that I am "Satan" ?

What is temptation?
Temptation itself is not sin temptation is a innocent thing.
You see something you wonder about it, that in it self is temptation.

True Satan tempted Job, David and Jesus but he did so through God. I know this is and can be a hard thing to understand.

Without understanding of evil (and even with) one can fall prey to evil temptations and they sin because of it.
But it is not "Satan" who works temptation but our own minds work it.
All "Satan" ever did was make the temptation apparent.
And so without temptation how then could we know what is sin?

IamBill
Jun 14th 2008, 04:54 PM
:o :lol:
you said- "Temptation is a part of learning"
I said - ""Temptation" are(is) the works of satan, Not God -but yes, God allows it
............. So, I'm not sure how you arrive at the following words-

So your saying this "Satan" tempted you to post this reply?
Then you are saying that I am "Satan" ?

I'm not sure what you are implying that I said- please don't twist my words :)


What is temptation?
Temptation itself is not sin temptation is a innocent thing.
I agree - "itself" is not sin, falling to it IS.
I don't consider something that can cost you your soul "Innocent" though.


You see something you wonder about it, that in it self is temptation. You mean like - what goes on in my computer ?
Who painted that picture ? How big is the universe ? Why God loves us so ?
---or, what that person is like in the sack! what can I gain from "(that)"!
How can I twist it to My Will !
No, there is a difference Zack. One leads you away from God and into Sin


True Satan tempted Job, David and Jesus but he did so through God. I know this is and can be a hard thing to understand.
I don't find it hard to understand, as I said - "Temptation" is the works of satan, Not God -but yes, God allows it.


Without understanding of evil (and even with) one can fall prey to evil temptations and they sin because of it.
True, BUT "Without understanding of evil" -one is innocent, thereby not guilty of Committing the Sin. (paradox again)


But it is not "Satan" who works temptation but our own minds work it.
All "Satan" ever did was make the temptation apparent.

It sounds as though you are making satan out to be innocent!


And so without temptation how then could we know what is sin? Are you twisting the account in Eden on purpose ?
The "temptation" to eat was -(satan's words)- "and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil"
Paradox IS that - if they didn't ALREADY KNOW before eating, they are not guilty of the "sin".
We can't "desire" something without knowing "what" it is, words are empty without definition.
We can't "disobey" God, if we don't know what disobey is, or fear the penalty (death) if we don't know what death is.
IF they were "innocent"(unknowing before hand) then they are guilty of nothing, If they Are guilty of Sin, then they DID KNOW, and if they Did Know, then they gained NOTHING from the Tree. Other than exactly what GOD said they would Gain -DEATH.

Zack702
Jun 14th 2008, 05:06 PM
You mean like - what goes on in my computer ?
Who painted that picture ? How big is the universe ? Why God loves us so?
---or, what that person is like in the sack! what can I gain from "(that)"!
How can I twist it to My Will !
No, there is a difference Zack. One leads you away from God and into Sin


Paradox IS that - if they didn't ALREADY KNOW before eating, they are not guilty of the "sin".

Yes I mean like what you said. They are all temptations whether or not you realize that. If you are hungry you are tempted to eat can you show me otherwise ? The only difference is some temptations are good and some are evil. So tell me isn't this knowing good and evil?

The paradox ? I consider they knew they should not eat that fruit because the God that gave it to them said do not eat it.
So God tempted them not to eat the fruit first which was the good temptation. Then the serpent tempted them to eat the fruit which was the evil temptation. And so they knew good and evil from these temptations. (being obey God or disobey God)

fewarechosen
Jun 14th 2008, 05:19 PM
hmmm

i think there is a difference between instruction and temptation

when a parent says dont touch the hot stove --the parent is not tempting them to do it

but the devil may come along and try to say well its not that hot its not really going to be that bad and tempt them to touch it

so just dont mix temptation with instruction

Zack702
Jun 14th 2008, 05:21 PM
hmmm

i think there is a difference between instruction and temptation

when a parent says dont touch the hot stove --the parent is not tempting them to do it

but the devil may come along and try to say well its not that hot its not really going to be that bad and tempt them to touch it

so just dont mix temptation with instruction

But the parent tempted there child not to touch.
Temptations are already in your head...

Definitions of tempt on the Web:
dispose or incline or entice to; "We were tempted by the delicious-looking food"
So by knowing that we can tempt each other to do good things just as we can tempt them to do evil things.
If you are tempted by a delicious meal and I am tempted to share one with you I consider this to be good for both of us.

fewarechosen
Jun 14th 2008, 05:31 PM
But the parent tempted there child not to touch.
Temptations are already in your head...

Definitions of tempt on the Web:
dispose or incline or entice to; "We were tempted by the delicious-looking food"
So by knowing that we can tempt each other to do good things just as we can tempt them to do evil things.


the temptation is in us --thats the beast

then we are instructed --by parent

then the beast in us straight away tries to get us to disobey
but there is no tempting in the instruction


my dad was a hunter and outdoorsman so i was raised around guns.

he took me outside one day with a shotgun cause i saw it him with it often after coming home from hunting or cleaning

he loaded it up -pointed it at small tree, and shot --blowing apart the tree --- then said -- remember your alot softer than that tree

i was a little kid and that sunk in deep so i always had a respect for weapons and other things.

now he wasnt tempting me -- he was instructing
the devil may have tempted me to mess around with weapons and take them lightly --but because of that instruction i never did.

so i think we are just having a different understanding

but i do see your point with the definition-- incline to

and sorry i think im derailing thread lol

Zack702
Jun 14th 2008, 05:40 PM
now he wasnt tempting me -- he was instructing
the devil may have tempted me to mess around with weapons and take them lightly --but because of that instruction i never did.


The temptation in the instruction is that you do the good thing and not the bad. You are after the instruction tempted to be very safe around guns (which is a good thing) you might not realize it but your father tempted you to do good and so he did very well in his instruction.

IamBill
Jun 14th 2008, 06:06 PM
Yes I mean like what you said. They are all temptations whether or not you realize that. If you are hungry you are tempted to eat can you show me otherwise ? The only difference is some temptations are good and some are evil. So tell me isn't this knowing good and evil?

I just did zack :) I think you also know that you are using "temptation" a bit loosely here, THAT would not cost you or anyone their Soul.
Yes it is - even if you want to call "wondering why God loves us so" or "being hungry" (and the likes)-> a Temptation
STILL does not show in any way that Knowledge was gained from the Tree
(which IS the OP of this thread if I have to remind you)



I consider they knew they should not eat that fruit because the God that gave it to them said do not eat it.
So God tempted them not to eat the fruit first which was the good temptation. Then the serpent tempted them to eat the fruit which was the evil temptation. And so they knew good and evil from these temptations. (being obey God or disobey God)
Yeah I figured that out the first time you said it
:hmm: :hmm: :hmm:
"the God that gave it to them"
"So God tempted them not to eat the fruit"
:hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

those are Very interesting statements Zack ! If not typo, very offensive.

God put the "tree" in the Garden, satan deceived and tempted them.

Zack702
Jun 14th 2008, 06:15 PM
STILL does not show in any way that Knowledge was gained from the Tree
(which IS the OP of this thread if I have to remind you)


God put the "tree" in the Garden, satan deceived and tempted them.

It shows that the tree had absolutely no part in gaining anything except it was the object of temptation. Through that temptation which we gained the knowledge of good and evil. Good being obey God evil being disobey God.

God made "EVERYTHING", and the "serpent" "beguiled" Eve.
Temptation means you want something I don't see how that is unclear? Temptation is not a evil thing itself. Temptation is a natural thing. But there are good temptations and there are evil temptations and we can know the difference.

IamBill
Jun 14th 2008, 10:54 PM
"Temptation means you want something I don't see how that is unclear?"

Because "wanting something" is called DESIRE

Now PLEASE address the OP or quit

Zack702
Jun 14th 2008, 11:59 PM
"Temptation means you want something I don't see how that is unclear?"

Because "wanting something" is called DESIRE

Now PLEASE address the OP or quit

The OP is about knowing good and evil.
Am I not talking about this very thing?

What then are you asking me to address?

You said to me in a post that temptation is the work of Satan and not God. To which I was/am tempted to reply. But I do not consider your post to be the work of Satan just because you tempted me to reply.