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Diggindeeper
Jun 5th 2008, 06:48 AM
Judge Not?? (Part #1)
Should Christians judge actions of others? Or not? This is an important and serious issue of controversy to God's people today.

Matthew 7:1 Jesus said, "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:

But....

John 7:24 Jesus also said, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."


Jesus made the above two statements which seem to contradict, don't they? So, should we judge others? Or, are we overstepping our boundaries when we do? Obviously this matter deserves more consideration and closer scrutinity of God's word.


Certainly there would be few, if any, on this board who can claim we are a "Judge" in a judicial sense---a public official who hears and decides cases in a court of law. Neither are many of us a "Judge" who is an appointed arbiter in a contest or competition.


According to the American Heritage Dictionary, 2nd Edition:


JUDGE means - to pass judgment, as in a court case; to form an opinion about; to criticize; to censure; to think, consider or suppose.
Other words for "judge" are DISCERN and TRY.


DISCERN means - to detect or perceive with the eye, the mind, or by spiritual means; to perceive distinctions; to detect; to understand the difference.


TRY means - to test; to examine or hear evidence (as in a court case); to put the accused on trial; to make an effort; an attempt.


JUDGMENT means - the act of judging; the capacity to perceive, discern or make reasonable decisions; a decision, opinion or conclusion reached after due consideration


Please refer back to these important definitions as we continue this vital study.

It is extremely important to study the CONTEXT of any statement in scripture.

Question:
Who was Jesus talking to when he said, Judge not?

Matthew 7:1-5
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Answer: Jesus was speaking to ACCUSING, JUDGMENTAL HYPOCRITES!

In plain English,that means: Don't look with disgust down your brother's collar unless your own neck is clean! Don't point out his ring-around-the-collar if your own neck is dirty!

No one can JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY unless they are capable of DISCERNING, and discernment is a gift of the holy spirit that is supposed to operate in us and through us.

I offer that a troublesome problem today is that many cannot tell the difference between DISCERNMENT and JUDGING.

I farther offer that many today have lost their sensitivity
to right and wrong,
truth and error,
clean and unclean,
between the holy and the profane!
(Part #2 coming Thursday night. Till then, discussion, anyone?)

Zack702
Jun 5th 2008, 07:01 AM
Matthew 7:1 Jesus said, "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:

I consider this meaning do not judge unless you yourself is guiltless of that sin or of that wrong.
Or in more crafty words as you put "Don't look with disgust down your brother's collar unless your own neck is clean!"

redeemedbyhim
Jun 5th 2008, 07:12 AM
This will be a very interesting subject to discuss.
I post on another board, it's pro-life (don't want this thread to veer off in that direction), but we have been discussing this exact issue.

One thing that has been brought up concerning judging is this scripture:

I Corth. 6:2

Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

I believe we are to judge with righteous judgement. Not point a finger at someone in condemnation, but we all have to make judgements about situations, circumstances and even people.

The problem that can arise if you make a "judgement", is that others will quickly point out that you're "judging" and condem you for doing so.

So, how best to judge according to God's Word without appearing to "judge" as to a mote in someone's eye?

dworthington
Jun 5th 2008, 10:32 AM
When we are saved, born again, washed in His blood, we then have been judged and are seen through that Blood as righteous, therefore we can judge the fruit/actions of others, but not their heart.

Revinius
Jun 5th 2008, 10:49 AM
we must not judge, but God does in His Word. Its only through the Word we must hold our standards and those standards can only really be held by those who are our brothers in Christ.

ARCHER42
Jun 5th 2008, 01:16 PM
Judge Not?? (Part #1)
Should Christians judge actions of others? Or not? This is an important and serious issue of controversy to God's people today.

Matthew 7:1 Jesus said, "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:

But....

John 7:4 Jesus also said, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."


Jesus made the above two statements which seem to contradict, don't they? So, should we judge others? Or, are we overstepping our boundaries when we do? Obviously this matter deserves more consideration and closer scrutinity of God's word.


Certainly there would be few, if any, on this board who can claim we are a "Judge" in a judicial sense---a public official who hears and decides cases in a court of law. Neither are many of us a "Judge" who is an appointed arbiter in a contest or competition.


According to the American Heritage Dictionary, 2nd Edition:


JUDGE means - to pass judgment, as in a court case; to form an opinion about; to criticize; to censure; to think, consider or suppose.
Other words for "judge" are DISCERN and TRY.


DISCERN means - to detect or perceive with the eye, the mind, or by spiritual means; to perceive distinctions; to detect; to understand the difference.


TRY means - to test; to examine or hear evidence (as in a court case); to put the accused on trial; to make an effort; an attempt.


JUDGMENT means - the act of judging; the capacity to perceive, discern or make reasonable decisions; a decision, opinion or conclusion reached after due consideration


Please refer back to these important definitions as we continue this vital study.

It is extremely important to study the CONTEXT of any statement in scripture.

Question:
Who was Jesus talking to when he said, Judge not?

Matthew 7:1-5
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Answer: Jesus was speaking to ACCUSING, JUDGMENTAL HYPOCRITES!

In plain English,that means: Don't look with disgust down your brother's collar unless your own neck is clean! Don't point out his ring-around-the-collar if your own neck is dirty!

No one can JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY unless they are capable of DISCERNING, and discernment is a gift of the holy spirit that is supposed to operate in us and through us.

I offer that a troublesome problem today is that many cannot tell the difference between DISCERNMENT and JUDGING.

I farther offer that many today have lost their sensitivity
to right and wrong,
truth and error,
clean and unclean,
between the holy and the profane!
(Part #2 coming Thursday night. Till then, discussion, anyone?)



Good post... Diggin..... Its nice to see you posting...

As far as Judging and Spiritual discernment,

Paul talked about certain immorality going on inside the Body of Christ.. This is found in 1 Cor 5.... Paul had judged that ... do deliver that one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh but the Salvation of the Spirit in the Day of the Lord.. This is discerning and judging within the Body.. He goes on to mention to not even have company with a brother or sister who is entangled in these lusts of the flesh.. purge away the old leaven.. put them away from oneself....

NOW He also states that God is the ONE Who will judge those outside the Body of Christ... he mentioned not to company with fornicators yet not altogether fornicators of this world yet alone idolators, extortioners, covetous, etc.. if you were not to company with them.. you would have to go out of the world... To company with them does not mean to 'practice' what they are practicing.. but to be around them.. maybe its your work.. maybe its your family... Who Knows.. He may use you to lead one of those to the Lord...

Personally.. that which is 'outside' the Body of Christ.. as far as discerning and judging.. I leave to the Only Righteous Judge, He is the One who is Worthy to judge....

If you look at 1 Cor 5 ... any kind of immorality... or even false teaching or doctrine should be discerned and judged accordingly.... You don't see this going on much today... Almost anything is accepted... which should remind of the 'times' we live in..

Teke
Jun 5th 2008, 01:16 PM
Proverbs 26:1-13 tells us about lack of discernment and the hypocrisy it shows.

Condemnation and forgiveness do not mix. There is liberty for Christians in serving God (Rom. 14:1-12)

note- Diggin's John verse is 24 of chapter 7, not verse 4

fewarechosen
Jun 5th 2008, 01:18 PM
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

we can judge actions for sure, we can look and see a murder and know its wrong-- but yet the key is not judging the person who did it.

if we couldnt judge actions we would be spiritually blind

th1bill
Jun 5th 2008, 02:02 PM
... Matt. 7:1, when taken out of it's context, is the lost sinner's favorite verse. When the verse is examined in it's context it is stating the same thing that the verse in John is saying. I know that folks get tired of my repetition but we must always remember that context is the single most important aspect of the usage of any word or phrase. As English speaking people we all know that a cat is a small, sometimes cuddly animal and that a dog is man's best friend, or so it is said. All of the world knows that here in Texas, we have a colorful manor of speach that is chuckled over, the world around. So, if I tell you that it is raining cats and puppy dogs outside you would not expect to be able to walk out my front door and see cats and young pups bouncing off the ground as they topple from the sky. No, everyone, except, maybe, young children, would expect a deluge of rain to be falling in my neighborhood and of course they would be correct.
... We must never forget that the entire Bible is one context and that the best interpreter of scripture is other scripture.

ARCHER42
Jun 5th 2008, 03:23 PM
... Matt. 7:1, when taken out of it's context, is the lost sinner's favorite verse. When the verse is examined in it's context it is stating the same thing that the verse in John is saying. I know that folks get tired of my repetition but we must always remember that context is the single most important aspect of the usage of any word or phrase. As English speaking people we all know that a cat is a small, sometimes cuddly animal and that a dog is man's best friend, or so it is said. All of the world knows that here in Texas, we have a colorful manor of speach that is chuckled over, the world around. So, if I tell you that it is raining cats and puppy dogs outside you would not expect to be able to walk out my front door and see cats and young pups bouncing off the ground as they topple from the sky. No, everyone, except, maybe, young children, would expect a deluge of rain to be falling in my neighborhood and of course they would be correct.
... We must never forget that the entire Bible is one context and that the best interpreter of scripture is other scripture.



I agree and well stated..

moonglow
Jun 5th 2008, 04:01 PM
I think the bible is clear that Christians CAN judge other Christians...but we cannot judge the nonbeliever...ARCHER42 brought up that chapter:

1 Corinthians 5
9 When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. 10 But I wasn't talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. 11 What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people.
12 It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways. 13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you."

On the Matthew 7...I found a great commentary on this one...this isn't about judging nonbelievers! Its about judging other Christians...notice it says 'brother'..we don't call nonbelievers 'brother'...as in 'brother in Christ'...while we are allowed judge other Christians...it cannot be done with self -righteous:

http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/v...=mt&chapter=007

David Guzik's Commentaries on the Bible

Matthew 7 - The Sermon on the Mount (Continued)
A. Judgment and discernment.

1. (1-2) The summary statement on judging others.

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you."

a. Judge not, that you be not judged: This is the Bible verse that seems to be most popular in our present day. But most the people who quote this verse don't understand what Jesus said. They seem to think Jesus commanded a universal acceptance of any lifestyle or teaching.

i. If we see what Jesus said in Matthew 7:15-16, He commands us to know people by the fruit of their life, and some sort of assessment is necessary for that.

ii. The Christian is called to unconditionally love. But the Christian is not called to unconditional approval. We really can love people who do things that should not be approved of.

b. Instead, Jesus is speaking against being judgmental, that is, judging motives and the inner man, which only God can know. We can judge the fruit of a man, but we can rarely judge their motives with accuracy.

c. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged: In addition, Jesus does not prohibit judgment of others. He only requires that our judgment be completely fair, and that we only judge others by a standard we would also like to be judged by.

i. Most of our judgment in regard to others is wrong, not because we judge according to a standard, but because we are hypocritical in the application of that standard - we ignore the standard in our own life. We judge others by one standard, and ourselves by another standard - being far more generous to ourselves than others.

d. With the measure you use, it will be measured back to you: According to the teaching of some rabbis in Jesus' time, God had two measures that He used to judge people. One was a measure of justice and the other was a measure of mercy. Which measure do you want God to use with you? Then you should use that same measure with others.

2. (3-5) An illustration of Jesus' principle regarding judging.

"And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."
a. Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? The figures of a speck and a plank are real figures used humorously. Jesus shows how we are generally far more tolerant to our own sin than we are to the sin of others.

b. Look, a plank is in your own eye: Our hypocrisy in these matters is always more evident to others than to ourselves. We may find a way to ignore the plank in our own eye, but others notice it immediately.

i. A good example of this kind of hypocrisy was David's reaction to Nathan's story about a man who unjustly stole and killed another man's lamb. David quickly condemned the man, but was blind to his greater sin (2 Samuel 12).

c. First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye: Jesus doesn't say that it is wrong for us to help our brother with the speck in his eye. It is a good thing to help your brother with his speck, but not before dealing with the plank in your own eye.

God bless

thepenitent
Jun 5th 2008, 05:52 PM
Jesus certainly calls on us to be fruit inspectors! Judgmental discretion is required.

IamBill
Jun 5th 2008, 07:43 PM
Here is my understanding, and how I hear the HS -

7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
(IOW- Don't think that- "you will not be judged")

2 For with what judgment ye judge,(?) ye shall be judged: (!)
and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

John 7:24 ? - no contradiction !


I will worry about judging myself first, lead by example.

Reynolds357
Jun 5th 2008, 07:58 PM
"Judge not, lest ye be Judged" is the most misunderstood verse in the Bible. This verse is referring to judging motives or the condition of the heart. This verse does not mean do not judge actions. As Christians in leadership, we have the responsibility to shepherd our flock. Part of that responsibility entails dealing with sins being committed by the flock. For example, can I have someone on the deacon board that is living in adultery? Can I allow the worship leader to be "shacked up" with someone they are not married to? "Judge not" refers to judging motives. An example would be when someone donates $100,000 to the Church. Many people are going to judge them and say "they did that just to be a show off." In actuality, we do not know the condition of that person's heart. It might be they did it as a sacrifice to God and wanted no recognition.
We are not to be hypocrites. We are to get the mote out of our own eye before removing the speck in our brother's eye. However, church discipline was ordained by Paul and we are to follow it. There must be accountability. You can not have Christians living in open sin in the midst of your church body and there not be consequences for that sin they choose not to repent and turn from.

th1bill
Jun 5th 2008, 09:26 PM
In chapter six, Jesus has just finished teaching us how to pray and that we must learn to rely upon God for our every need. Now the LORD, our God, is about to instruct us in the use of the wisdom God has imparted to us.


Mat 7:1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you.
Mat 7:3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me cast out the mote out of thine eye; and lo, the beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


The lost man will often stop with the first verse, after all, you don't want to ruin your life, filled with sin, and most, even the Christian, will stop at the end of verse 2. As Jesus has stated in the second verse, we must never judge a person by stricter standards than we will want to be judged by. At the same time we are given the Ten Commandments (Exo. 20) and the first five books of the Old Testament are known as the Books of the Law because we are shown, down to the last detail, how to obey them.


Jesus is teaching us, verses 3 through 5, that when we judge that we must first make ourselves right with God. That does not mean that we can sin the same sin if we keep our mouths shut to the sins of another. We are taught, through out the Bible, that God seeks after a righteous people to call His own. We are also taught, through out the scriptures that we are to grow in His grace every day of our lives here on this Earth. As His servants we are to be examples and to never lead, even a child into sin. If we do not do our very best to live a righteous life and others see us claiming the name of Christ, they will follow our example and we will be guilty of leading them into sin, just as surely as if we have driven them there at the point of a gun.

Mat 7:6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before the swine, lest haply they trample them under their feet, and turn and rend you.


In verse 6 we learn that we are to judge. Without judging the circumstances and the mettle of the person we are in danger of making ourselves and the Gospel into Canon Fodder to the lost man. In another verse of scripture, Jesus taught us to be ready to kick the dust off our feet and to seek the person that is ready to hear the truth. Without judgment, one will stand there for all eternity, witnessing to the same lost man and thereby make him or herself useless to the work of the Kingdom.


Mat 7:7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.


Not only does Jesus teach us to pray, He is now teaching us to be proactive in our prayers. At some point in the Christians life he or she must learn to seek after God to do for them the things that they are not able to do without Him.


Mat 7:9Or what man is there of you, who, if his son shall ask him for a loaf, will give him a stone;
Mat 7:10or if he shall ask for a fish, will give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?


God has opened His vault to us and to access it we need only to live our lives in service to Him. If we are going to serve God we must learn to follow His directions. In the Great Commission we are instructed to make desciples of men, everywher. If I walk up to a Muslim and begin to witness to him I must first judge him as being wrong and unsaved. If we are going to help the protitute break free of her sin, we must judge her as an unrepentent sinner before we can minister to her.


Mat 7:12All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets.


When you see that eighteen year old getting drunk every night and putting notches on his belt to record his sexual adventures, will you just e silent, and allow him to work his way into Hell or will you judge his sin and seek to plant a seed that might, one day germinate and be harvested, later, by another Christian?

Diggindeeper
Jun 6th 2008, 05:17 AM
There have been many so good points brought out and I want to commend people for the study you must have already done on this subject! I am doing this from a study I led a few years back. This is taken from that time of teaching that took us about five or six weeks to study and discuss. I decided to do this here on the board because all the time I hear people saying, We're not supposed to judge others. And often I hear, You're not supposed to judge me.

One point that has been pointed out in your replies is that in order to witness to others, we MUST first be capable of judging their actions. I agree, and that can be scripturally proven. How can an erring brother be restored, or some lost hell-bound person brought to repentance if no spiritual, holy saint of God cannot JUDGE or DISCERN that there is sin in his life...and possess the BOLDNESS to point it out and lead the erring one to repentance?

Friends, this is love in action! It is a matter of life and death.

We certainly are NOT to go around with a judgmental, hypocritical, condemning, self-righteous, holier-than-thou attitude, but we do need to seriously reconsider whether or not to judge, and to speak out when needed! I don't believe Jesus intended that we are NEVER, NEVER to judge...but we are to JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY!

Paul DISCERNED that a young woman in a group following him and hearing his preaching had a demon--a spirit of divination.

Acts 16:16-18
16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.


The Apostle Peter rebuked Simon the sorcerer publicly, saying, "Thy heart is not right in the sight of God"

Acts 8:9-23
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.


Jesus often said things like, "Woe to you...hypocrites!"

Many church people, and even preachers, today would be screaming, "Look out Paul! Watch out Peter! Jesus, that is judging! This is often said in ignorance,but often it is said out of contempt, since the use of "you are judging" is sometimes used as a cover up in self-defense of sin in their own life. After all, it really is true...mankind tends to love darkness better than light! (See John 3:19)

2 Timothy 4:2
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

The child of God is to reprove, rebuke and exhort." This REQUIRES judging and spiritual discerning on our part.Yet, everywhere we hear howls of protests from professing Christians, "Look out there, you're judging - and that is a sin!"

NO! It is not a sin. It is right. It is scriptural.

God expects saints to reprove and rebuke carnal, worldly, sinning people...to point out the sin, worldliness or error in their lives...even if they get mad!

And, they DO get mad.

(We'll go on to Part 3 on Friday night. Meanwhile, feel free to continue this good discussion!)

tgallison
Jun 6th 2008, 01:22 PM
[quote=Diggindeeper;1661702]Judge Not?? (Part #1)
Should Christians judge actions of others? Or not? This is an important and serious issue of controversy to God's people today.

2 examples in the Old Testament.

Ahithophel judging David.

Ahithophel judged David worthy of death for what he did to Uriah, his grand son-in-law. He was also instrumental in helping fulfill the prophecy of Nathan against David in regards to David's wives.

God punished David three ways we know about. He shamed David before all Israel, regarding his concubines. He promised the sword would never depart from David's house. And he took the child that was conceived out of wedlock.

And yet God said David was a man after his own heart.

Ahithophel's judgment left unsatisfied, went on to destroy him. Vengeance is mine saith the Lord.

Then we have Job. God said, "there was non like him in the world".

If you had met Job you probably wouldn't have like him very much. He was so feared by the young men, that they went and hid in his presence, so said Job.

Job's three friends, who probably knew Job as well as anyone, condemned him.

Now they judged Job, not just his actions which they were well aware of, but were he stood with God.

They made 2 errors. One, they judged his relationship with God, and two, they condemned Job without having an answer to how Job could get right with God.

My conclusion. 1. You can judge a persons actions, as some have stated, but you can't judge their relationship with God. 2. When you judge a person's actions, you best have the correct answer to help them. Motives count.

longtooth
Jun 6th 2008, 02:01 PM
I am a very practical, rubber meets the road Christian. The difference in being judgemental & making a judgement call of right or wrong is the direction of ones heart.

I am no better than the bad sinners of the world. Matter O fact, when I look at where I was headed when I made my life committment to Jesus, I honestly have to confess except for the grace of God there I would be.

Taking a stand for the right & wrong of the Word is not being judgemental.
God looks at the heart & that is His work of judgement.
We are to look at the fruit.

IamBill
Jun 6th 2008, 02:53 PM
Here is my understanding, and how I hear the HS -

7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
(IOW- Don't think that- "you will not be judged")

2 For with what judgment ye judge,(?) ye shall be judged: (!)
and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

John 7:24 ? - no contradiction !


I will worry about judging myself first, lead by example.


and then I am judged in error, for stopping at 2 ?

I am content to be judged, I will be judged. and what I have expressed is in alignment with 3 -5 and why I stopped at 2
7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mt 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


and also does Not contradict - John 7:24 In any way

7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Discernment and guidance Yes, But - (let me go get a quote from "Daughter")
---

One thing... "judge" in Greek is poorly translated in English. In the original text... judge means, "to cut off entirely..." it's not "don't decide that this is what the person is doing," or "this is what they mean," it mean, "don't cut off, eternally reject..." So "don't judge" means, "don't utterly condemn, reject, cast out for eternity.

theleast
Jun 6th 2008, 03:04 PM
In chapter six, Jesus has just finished teaching us how to pray and that we must learn to rely upon God for our every need. Now the LORD, our God, is about to instruct us in the use of the wisdom God has imparted to us.


Mat 7:1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you.
Mat 7:3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me cast out the mote out of thine eye; and lo, the beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


The lost man will often stop with the first verse, after all, you don't want to ruin your life, filled with sin, and most, even the Christian, will stop at the end of verse 2. As Jesus has stated in the second verse, we must never judge a person by stricter standards than we will want to be judged by. At the same time we are given the Ten Commandments (Exo. 20) and the first five books of the Old Testament are known as the Books of the Law because we are shown, down to the last detail, how to obey them.


Jesus is teaching us, verses 3 through 5, that when we judge that we must first make ourselves right with God. That does not mean that we can sin the same sin if we keep our mouths shut to the sins of another. We are taught, through out the Bible, that God seeks after a righteous people to call His own. We are also taught, through out the scriptures that we are to grow in His grace every day of our lives here on this Earth. As His servants we are to be examples and to never lead, even a child into sin. If we do not do our very best to live a righteous life and others see us claiming the name of Christ, they will follow our example and we will be guilty of leading them into sin, just as surely as if we have driven them there at the point of a gun.

Mat 7:6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before the swine, lest haply they trample them under their feet, and turn and rend you.


In verse 6 we learn that we are to judge. Without judging the circumstances and the mettle of the person we are in danger of making ourselves and the Gospel into Canon Fodder to the lost man. In another verse of scripture, Jesus taught us to be ready to kick the dust off our feet and to seek the person that is ready to hear the truth. Without judgment, one will stand there for all eternity, witnessing to the same lost man and thereby make him or herself useless to the work of the Kingdom.


Mat 7:7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.


Not only does Jesus teach us to pray, He is now teaching us to be proactive in our prayers. At some point in the Christians life he or she must learn to seek after God to do for them the things that they are not able to do without Him.


Mat 7:9Or what man is there of you, who, if his son shall ask him for a loaf, will give him a stone;
Mat 7:10or if he shall ask for a fish, will give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?


God has opened His vault to us and to access it we need only to live our lives in service to Him. If we are going to serve God we must learn to follow His directions. In the Great Commission we are instructed to make desciples of men, everywher. If I walk up to a Muslim and begin to witness to him I must first judge him as being wrong and unsaved. If we are going to help the protitute break free of her sin, we must judge her as an unrepentent sinner before we can minister to her.


Mat 7:12All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets.


When you see that eighteen year old getting drunk every night and putting notches on his belt to record his sexual adventures, will you just e silent, and allow him to work his way into Hell or will you judge his sin and seek to plant a seed that might, one day germinate and be harvested, later, by another Christian?

This is a great post!

timmyb
Jun 6th 2008, 03:33 PM
Proverbs 26:1-13 tells us about lack of discernment and the hypocrisy it shows.

Condemnation and forgiveness do not mix. There is liberty for Christians in serving God (Rom. 14:1-12)

note- Diggin's John verse is 24 of chapter 7, not verse 4

but our freedom is not a cover up for sin

Teke
Jun 6th 2008, 04:21 PM
but our freedom is not a cover up for sin

No, nor is it to cause others to sin.

timmyb
Jun 6th 2008, 06:50 PM
the end of the law is love... love does no wrong to a neighbor

Diggindeeper
Jun 7th 2008, 04:42 AM
More on 2 Timothy 4:2-- Some dictionary definitions:

REPROVE means to rebuke, to scold, to find fault with.
REBUKE means to criticize sharply.
EXHORT means to urge by strong argument or appeal.
PERCEIVE means to become aware of; to observe; to detect.

It seems to me that we are in agreement thus far. We ARE to judge, in order to point others in the right direction, and to the path of righteousness. We Are to judge, in order to turn others from sin. We are to judge their actions, their lifestyle, their wrongdoing. All Judging is NOT wrong!

Judging, trying or discerning is a grave matter that should not be taken lightly. There is a Biblical way to judge. If we judge with a holier-than-thou attitude, or without love and compassion, or if we are not living as Godly a life as we can, then we have no right to judge anyone else! Our motive for judging should be to deliver a person from the soon coming wrath of Almighty God!


Titus 2:11-12 screams to us, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching US that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, WE should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world."

The problem is, I believe, that we often confuse SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT with JUDGING.

Error and sin must be discerned and exposed by true spirit led men and women. Today truth co-exists with error in such a way that the two are almost married! Multitudes adamently accept perverted doctrines of God's word and are gone astray without knowing it.

The spirit of truth in God's word commands us to reprove,rebuke and exhort in 2 Timothy 4:2..
Better to warn people than to leave them to face the coming wrath of God!
If we don't warn them, their blood will be on our hands!

Titus 2:15 demands, "These things (Godly, Biblical doctrines that can be proven with connecting scripture) speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority."

We need to remember that, yes, God is truly loving and merciful, long-suffering and not willing that any should perish...after all, God IS love! But He is also a God of RIGHTEOUSNESS, and a God of JUDGMENT.

(Saturday night...part #4. We'll look at "Being fruit inspectors", and "Fruit of the spirit." Thanks to all who are discussing this vital topic! :hug: You have given GREAT replies that I'm certain will help MANY for years to come!)

Ashley274
Jun 7th 2008, 05:00 AM
Diggin I love your topic I have been reading it. For me I feel it is right to point in a kind way the error (sin) someone may be making....but I can't say or even think IMO.. they should go to hell...To me that is the judgement many will or should avoid..That is God's call not mine...Like Jobs friends they didn't KNOW his inward relationship with God nor any of the circumstances..lfor example the Devil and Gods tests. I honestly can't KNOW if someone is saved just by their sins...we all sin here and there...we fall short of the mark. However I can know sin and sinning when I see them and know they are wrong...I can point a person to Christ if they do not know Him.... I can try to help a stumbling Christian BUT that is all I can and should do imho

servant of Lord
Jun 7th 2008, 05:31 AM
oh, how the church has used these verses to cause much -well, say not good for the people in the church-

why do I say this....well, I agree that Jesus was saying that we should not say to someone -you should not (lets just use this) smoke a cigerette cause you are the Temple of the Holy Spirit...but you have a cigerette in your own mouth...does that make sense...

I see it like this...God's word is the Truth..
Now, when I look in the mirror I see the Truth.
I see some flaws (well more then a few)
I am far from perfect.
What do I need to do?
well, exercise,eat better, etc...
but many times when we walk away from the mirror we forget what we saw...we are covered with clothes and feel comfortable cause we are covered....
But, lets say that I have a (well lets just use this one) a big bogger hanging out of my nose. My hair is clumped on one side..
I can clearly see this and what am I going to do?
Fix it...

I see this being told to us in James ..if you need some scripture to see this point of veiw..

Now, lets say this ...I go to doctor .
He finds that I have cancer ...
what will he do ?
Will he tell me the truth or lie?
should be come in the room and tell me that all is well. Have a wonderful day..although that may be what I want to hear ? or should be tell me the truth in order to try to save my life ?

The same is with the word of God...
It is like a mirror . When I read it, although the much delight and comfort it gives to my soul..It also reflects to me the things that I so much despise ...the works of flesh that I so easily fall to...I fear My Holy Father that I am to be seperated from the world and not walk in the flesh...but if I go and say the preacher tells me that all is well,,,for He says -thall shall not judge..so as many have become preachers of the social gospel..which I think results from (well from many other things too) taking this verse and not taking the other verses or even the words that Jesus said right along with this verse and cause many harm...

I may not like the truth as far as what I need to spritiually exercise or pratice in my life cause we all know that the flesh war against the spirit...but we must walk in the spirit and not fullfill the lust of the flesh..
so what is one to do ? for we all fall short of the GLory Of God...
well, we have a Advocate with the Father..Jesus Christ..and He is our clothing ...He clothes us in His righteousness..Oh, the precious love of God...He is the one who sepertates us from the world..and It is He that overcame the world and through Him He said that we can do all things..so there is no excuse or one can not say that we should sin...or that all is well with sining...Paul answered much of this in romans...

so, Judge not ....well, yes...we can not judge a man. we should love all and share with all the truth. It may not be liked. It may be hard to deliver and recieved at times..but is is light..it is like coming in dark house..all the filth be hidden till the light is turned on....But the good news is that Jesus cleans it up ...But we are not to just be lazy and say oh, well..we are to keep our vessels as honor to the Lord..which I pray oh, Lord wash me clean for my vessels has many blemishes..many flaws and many weakness...but My potter tells me that He is the author and finsher of my faith, and that no one should look upon His hands work with disgust for I am His child and it is His work that He is doing in me...so yes, we should not judge..But if we do not preach the truth or share it then we are not preaching Jesus or sharing Him with others...

I say tell it ...speak it ...tell them ....for how will they know unless they hear the word of GOd....
Judge them not....but speak the truth ..do not take this as a excuse to not share with them the gospel..so many today preach..do as you want, judge not...board is the way ...but I do not see it this way..I am leary of this kind of talk...
narrow is the way..
so, just my thoughts on this...hope i made sense..sometimes I ramble on and on..Cause you know what...I love the Lord..I will never understand why He ever loved me so...He comes for a spotless Bride..and oh, how I long to be in the number that John saw..not as a fire insurance policy , but so that I can praise Him for enternally for clothing me in His righteousness and removing my shame..And allowed me to have fellowship with a Holy RIghteous God whom now I call Abba Father...He died for my sins so that I could live..and oh, how I want to see Him and Praise HIm with all the others who come out of tribulation..though I deserve it not...no works I have done ...but only By the GIft of God can I say...I made it...Praise Him ...thanks for letting me share with you..God Bless..

servant of Lord
Jun 7th 2008, 05:40 AM
Just a quick note..I reread after posting and wanted to say this...
when I said , I do not like the truth..well I am one who believes be careful of the words i choose..there is life and death in our words..so, In no ways do I mean truth of God's word or Jesus...What I mean is that when I see some things in word of God that I struggle with..well, it is hard sometimes.....I want to be vessel of honor..and not shame..I love my Father..I desire to please Him. But, It can be a little scary sometimes when dealing with struggle and seeing it in word that ...I love God's word...just not the truth of condition of my flesh or ------whatever the correct word would be..I want to hear the truth cause that is what will save my soul..cause I do not believe that I can do whatever and pratice whatever and think all is well.....The Spirit convicts and thank GOd....HE corrects them that He loves..so I continue to ask GOd to give the strength that can only be found through Christ...and lead me away from temptations when they come...for they will come..but He has made a way out from them..okay Done..sorry...here I go again..

th1bill
Jun 7th 2008, 05:43 AM
... Ashley, you have rightly pointed out that we cannot know their hearts and others have rightly pointed out that we are to be fruit inspectors. I do not wish to get ahead of anyone here but if we notice a brother or a sister falling short but they immediately correct the matter it is reasonable to assume that they slipped and are okay.
... Discernment, however, is required and a close eye is sometimes required because there are wolves in sheep's clothing in the flock. The Pastor and the Elders of the church cannot be on the watch twenty-four hours, seven days a week for every member of the assembly, they require a heads up from the flock on many occasions. We know and understand that Christians are not the perfect mirror image of Christ, as the world expects us to be but by same token we know from studying Romans and other passages that a Christian no longer plans to sin.
... A very good example of this would be a married man that sometimes still attends our church that has a past history of adultery. When he was observed pressing the women of the church, fully against his body, with his hands on their hips, several of us went to the church leaders to insure that they knew what was going on. They also had seen his actions and arranged a meeting with him, for correction of the matter. It was not a month later that his wife learned that he was guilty of siring a "love child" with another woman from outside the church. For everyone to have stuck their heads in the sand and just ignore the behavior would have been to iolate the commands of God entirely.
... There must be a great deal of God's wisdom used when judging/discerning the actions of others but when one is observed planning to sin, it is pretty much a given that this person is not following God and we must never leave the wolves to run amuck in the flock.

fewarechosen
Jun 7th 2008, 10:24 PM
2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?


hope this helps, for this is the truth of the matter

Jesusinmyheart
Jun 7th 2008, 10:26 PM
The way i see the contradiction is (which isn't really a contradiction per se), that the first verse which says:
Mat 7:1 "Do not judge, so that you may not be judged.

And in Luke it says:
Luk 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven;

And lastly in John it says:
Joh 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."

The first two verses basically say that one shouyld not judge to condemn, but as the last verse says judge with righteous judgment, which comes with compassion and mercy and grace.

In other words when we see someone dpoing something wrong we should not shout: "man you're so wicked and you should burn in hell/you will burn in hell/you belong in hell"/etc.
But rather the way i see it the approach should be first to find out why he or she did what they did to rule out any circumstances that caused them to commit what appears to be sin, point out the error as per scripture, and explain what is expected instead if this person out of ignorance/willfully sinned.

The reason i thre this first finding out what really happened in there, is because it also says to not judge by appearance.
IOW when i see someone stealing food, i should not say "hey you sinned", and let go a huge load of condemnation and then finding out this person stole to support her family. While that may not make it right, it still excuises that woman because she did it not for selfish gain, but for taking care of family.

That's how i understand these passages when looking at all of them together.

Shalom,
Tanja

Ashley274
Jun 9th 2008, 05:03 AM
Thanks Th1Bill, you and I pretty much agree. I think it is fair to call the person on the sins (just as we are told in the Bible to confront your brother then with another...then take it to the church ) but still I would not judge their salvation.....I can only see and know the behavior and not the heart and relationship they have with God...for all I know they could be working on it and praying all the time ..so I would never want to be saying or feeling this or that person ought to go to hell..I guess when I think of Judgement by ME..I want to avoid at all cost judging someone's salvation and heart


... Ashley, you have rightly pointed out that we cannot know their hearts and others have rightly pointed out that we are to be fruit inspectors. I do not wish to get ahead of anyone here but if we notice a brother or a sister falling short but they immediately correct the matter it is reasonable to assume that they slipped and are okay.
... Discernment, however, is required and a close eye is sometimes required because there are wolves in sheep's clothing in the flock. The Pastor and the Elders of the church cannot be on the watch twenty-four hours, seven days a week for every member of the assembly, they require a heads up from the flock on many occasions. We know and understand that Christians are not the perfect mirror image of Christ, as the world expects us to be but by same token we know from studying Romans and other passages that a Christian no longer plans to sin.
... A very good example of this would be a married man that sometimes still attends our church that has a past history of adultery. When he was observed pressing the women of the church, fully against his body, with his hands on their hips, several of us went to the church leaders to insure that they knew what was going on. They also had seen his actions and arranged a meeting with him, for correction of the matter. It was not a month later that his wife learned that he was guilty of siring a "love child" with another woman from outside the church. For everyone to have stuck their heads in the sand and just ignore the behavior would have been to iolate the commands of God entirely.
... There must be a great deal of God's wisdom used when judging/discerning the actions of others but when one is observed planning to sin, it is pretty much a given that this person is not following God and we must never leave the wolves to run amuck in the flock.

Firstfruits
Jun 9th 2008, 03:34 PM
Judge Not?? (Part #1)
Should Christians judge actions of others? Or not? This is an important and serious issue of controversy to God's people today.

Matthew 7:1 Jesus said, "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:

But....

John 7:24 Jesus also said, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."


Jesus made the above two statements which seem to contradict, don't they? So, should we judge others? Or, are we overstepping our boundaries when we do? Obviously this matter deserves more consideration and closer scrutinity of God's word.


Certainly there would be few, if any, on this board who can claim we are a "Judge" in a judicial sense---a public official who hears and decides cases in a court of law. Neither are many of us a "Judge" who is an appointed arbiter in a contest or competition.


According to the American Heritage Dictionary, 2nd Edition:


JUDGE means - to pass judgment, as in a court case; to form an opinion about; to criticize; to censure; to think, consider or suppose.
Other words for "judge" are DISCERN and TRY.


DISCERN means - to detect or perceive with the eye, the mind, or by spiritual means; to perceive distinctions; to detect; to understand the difference.


TRY means - to test; to examine or hear evidence (as in a court case); to put the accused on trial; to make an effort; an attempt.


JUDGMENT means - the act of judging; the capacity to perceive, discern or make reasonable decisions; a decision, opinion or conclusion reached after due consideration


Please refer back to these important definitions as we continue this vital study.

It is extremely important to study the CONTEXT of any statement in scripture.

Question:
Who was Jesus talking to when he said, Judge not?

Matthew 7:1-5
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Answer: Jesus was speaking to ACCUSING, JUDGMENTAL HYPOCRITES!

In plain English,that means: Don't look with disgust down your brother's collar unless your own neck is clean! Don't point out his ring-around-the-collar if your own neck is dirty!

No one can JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY unless they are capable of DISCERNING, and discernment is a gift of the holy spirit that is supposed to operate in us and through us.

I offer that a troublesome problem today is that many cannot tell the difference between DISCERNMENT and JUDGING.

I farther offer that many today have lost their sensitivity
to right and wrong,
truth and error,
clean and unclean,
between the holy and the profane!
(Part #2 coming Thursday night. Till then, discussion, anyone?)


Hi Diggindeeper,

Hope these will be helpful.

Jn 7:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Judge not according to the appearance, but Judge righteous judgment.

1 Cor 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Cor 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

1 Cor 6:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

1 Cor 6:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

Firstfruits

jericho777
Aug 5th 2012, 10:19 PM
You are 100% right.
I believe this is what was meant when we are told to judge not lest we be judged. We cannot judge a persons heart nor their soul, but we are to judge wisely their actions and to discern the good from the evil and of those things that stand against YHVH...
It would be insanely impossible to go a day without judging or discerning what is and what is not good for us. We are to judge the actions of those of our brethren who are living in sin and warn them of the impending danger of continuing that life style which would be in direct disobedience to YHVH and to turn them away from that sin. How can we do that if we cannot judge those things to be sinful?

-SEEKING-
Aug 6th 2012, 11:13 AM
Using my narrator from SpongeBob. Voice) FOUR YEARS LATER............

Diggindeeper
Aug 6th 2012, 05:15 PM
But, this is still a relevant question!

I still hear it said all the time, "We aren't supposed to judge anyone." That didn't stop just because I posted my stance on it a few years ago. And I posted it because I do get tired oh hearing it... To make a general statement as if it is dogma is not right because there is no balance in that general statement-- We aren't supposed to judge anyone.