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fewarechosen
Jun 6th 2008, 02:17 PM
babylon was babylon, it was also rome, it was also england, its also america, it was also .......

she is EVERY city- she sits over them all. look how the merchants trade with her, look at the towers they build in every city increasing thier goods but turning away from god. she is the WHORE we fornicate with when our minds want earthly goods, she is in our houses right now, we have wondered after her and been made drunk with her goods.

she sittith over MANY waters not just one, not just a couple, not just a city you can point to on a map and say see " this city had many rivers and lakes so it is clearly babylon"

god will show you the judgement of the whore, he will show you what he thinks of her goods, john wondered at her with great admiration as we do today but watch what god does to her and all her earthly goods.

so be not drunk on her goods --see her clearly and know what she sells and know why the merchants cry.
they will weep and cry for all the precious material goods will be NOTHING and everything they have been trying to amass will be destroyed.

babylon is all cities, towns and nations.
shes the GREAT whore

DurbanDude
Jun 6th 2008, 04:08 PM
Naah , sorry but I have to disagree there. these verses just show the extent of her influence, but this doesn't mean that the city is everywhere. This is confirmed by the imagery of Babylon (the whore) sitting on the beast , her influence is everywhere. I believe it is one city that the ten horns and the beast destroy in the end.

theleast
Jun 6th 2008, 04:54 PM
babylon was babylon, it was also rome, it was also england, its also america, it was also .......

she is EVERY city- she sits over them all. look how the merchants trade with her, look at the towers they build in every city increasing thier goods but turning away from god. she is the WHORE we fornicate with when our minds want earthly goods, she is in our houses right now, we have wondered after her and been made drunk with her goods.

she sittith over MANY waters not just one, not just a couple, not just a city you can point to on a map and say see " this city had many rivers and lakes so it is clearly babylon"

god will show you the judgement of the whore, he will show you what he thinks of her goods, john wondered at her with great admiration as we do today but watch what god does to her and all her earthly goods.

so be not drunk on her goods --see her clearly and know what she sells and know why the merchants cry.
they will weep and cry for all the precious material goods will be NOTHING and everything they have been trying to amass will be destroyed.

babylon is all cities, towns and nations.
shes the GREAT whore

Thank God also fewarechosen that you have the Wisdom to discern the Mystery.

I'm thanking God as we speak that more are having their eyes opened!

John146
Jun 6th 2008, 05:17 PM
babylon was babylon, it was also rome, it was also england, its also america, it was also .......

she is EVERY city- she sits over them all. look how the merchants trade with her, look at the towers they build in every city increasing thier goods but turning away from god. she is the WHORE we fornicate with when our minds want earthly goods, she is in our houses right now, we have wondered after her and been made drunk with her goods.

she sittith over MANY waters not just one, not just a couple, not just a city you can point to on a map and say see " this city had many rivers and lakes so it is clearly babylon"

god will show you the judgement of the whore, he will show you what he thinks of her goods, john wondered at her with great admiration as we do today but watch what god does to her and all her earthly goods.

so be not drunk on her goods --see her clearly and know what she sells and know why the merchants cry.
they will weep and cry for all the precious material goods will be NOTHING and everything they have been trying to amass will be destroyed.

babylon is all cities, towns and nations.
shes the GREAT whore

I definitely agree that it is a global entity. I don't understand when someone wants to insist that it has to be one literal city, knowing that it's also called a woman/whore. We know it's not a literal woman so why does it have to be a literal city? The description of Babylon reigning over the kings of the earth and sitting upon many waters, which symbolize the nations and people of the world, clearly makes it a global entity, which actually makes it highly unlikely that it would be referring to just one city or nation.

Literalist-Luke
Jun 6th 2008, 05:26 PM
babylon was babylon, it was also rome, it was also england, its also america, it was also .......

she is EVERY city- she sits over them all. look how the merchants trade with her, look at the towers they build in every city increasing thier goods but turning away from god. she is the WHORE we fornicate with when our minds want earthly goods, she is in our houses right now, we have wondered after her and been made drunk with her goods.

she sittith over MANY waters not just one, not just a couple, not just a city you can point to on a map and say see " this city had many rivers and lakes so it is clearly babylon"

god will show you the judgement of the whore, he will show you what he thinks of her goods, john wondered at her with great admiration as we do today but watch what god does to her and all her earthly goods.

so be not drunk on her goods --see her clearly and know what she sells and know why the merchants cry.
they will weep and cry for all the precious material goods will be NOTHING and everything they have been trying to amass will be destroyed.

babylon is all cities, towns and nations.
shes the GREAT whore


Thank God also fewarechosen that you have the Wisdom to discern the Mystery.

I'm thanking God as we speak that more are having their eyes opened!If Babylon is every city, town, and nation on the planet, then perhaps you'll explain how Revelation 18:9 & 17 can say that people will "stand far off" from Babylon as they mourn its destruction. If Babylon covers the whole planet, how could anybody "stand far off" from it?

fewarechosen
Jun 6th 2008, 05:34 PM
to try and help your question as best i can -- babylon is also the mind set and material of those cities , nations , towns.

now imagine ALL those buildings on fire, people will stand in empty fields and in the water wherever is away from those things, if im not mistaken i think it even says some will be offshore.

you will be far from babylon -- do you stand next to your house when it is on fire ? no you go away from it and stand lest you also get scorched.

the merchents who lived deliciously will look on as babylon burns and cry - for then thier earthly goods of silk will mean nothing thier plasma tvs will be of no use.

also

The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

thats the "7 continents " -- the whole earth -- thats why she is over many nations and tongues

threebigrocks
Jun 6th 2008, 05:41 PM
If Babylon is every city, town, and nation on the planet, then perhaps you'll explain how Revelation 18:9 & 17 can say that people will "stand far off" from Babylon as they mourn its destruction. If Babylon covers the whole planet, how could anybody "stand far off" from it?

Matthew 13


24Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.

25"But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
26"But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
27"The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
28"And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
29"But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"


James 4


4You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
5Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: "He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us"?


1 Corinthians 5



7Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.


I think those pretty much sum it up. Our neighbor can be of the enemy, but we are not to make friends with the enemy and those who are of the world. We are to bring the gospel to them, but not hang out with them. God will seperate out the wheat from the tares, and both will grow up together.

Literalist-Luke
Jun 6th 2008, 05:47 PM
to try and help your question as best i can -- babylon is also the mind set and material of those cities , nations , towns.

now imagine ALL those buildings on fire, people will stand in empty fields and in the water wherever is away from those things, if im not mistaken i think it even says some will be offshore.

you will be far from babylon -- do you stand next to your house when it is on fire ? no you go away from it and stand lest you also get scorched.

the merchents who lived deliciously will look on as babylon burns and cry - for then thier earthly goods of silk will mean nothing thier plasma tvs will be of no use.

also

The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

thats the "7 continents " -- the whole earth -- thats why she is over many nations and tonguesI do see your point of view and I can understand how you would arrive at this conclusion. There are three things that concern me about it:

(1) What is your basis for deciding that God meant "continents" when the Bible says "mountains"? I mean, if one has already pre-concluded that Babylon covers the globe, one would have to explain away the "mountains" statement by replacing it with the word "continents" to avoid the pre-conclusion falling apart, but what justification do we have for doing that?

(2) In Revelation 18:4, how are God's people supposed to "come out of her" if Babylon covers the globe? The only way I could see that happening would be if you were to suggest that Revelation 18:4 is in fact a Post-Tribulation Rapture that would indeed have God's people "coming out of" the entire world.

(3) How do you explain this statement in Revelation 17:16 - "The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire."

theleast
Jun 6th 2008, 05:50 PM
If Babylon is every city, town, and nation on the planet, then perhaps you'll explain how Revelation 18:9 & 17 can say that people will "stand far off" from Babylon as they mourn its destruction. If Babylon covers the whole planet, how could anybody "stand far off" from it?

Babylon is one city, Babylon is one nation, Babylon is the whole world.

Babylon is all these things.

Babylon is one city in that there is one place where the love of money resides at the heart radiating out to an entire nation that buys the goods of the world. The whore sitteth upon many waters, because the entire world fornicates with her. America is the Babylon that consumes the goods of the world. America consumes the majority of the worlds resources. America buys oil from the Middle East, diamonds and precious stones from Africa, herbs and spices from India, fine linens from Europe, bondservents....yes even bondservents from Mexico and South America entering her borders illegally to work for pennies a day picking fruit or cleaning the homes of the rich. This is a spiritual Babylon and a literal Babylon fornicating with the world while the kings of the world get rich, and the prince of this world waxes strong, while the poor are hungry and tired and meek. Thank God in his power and glory that his judgement upon Babylon and upon the whore and those that fornicate with her cometh quickly for it is right and just. For when Babylon is brought down on the day of the Lord the merchants will stand afar off on their shores and upon their ships at sea saying who is like unto her, and to whom now can we sell our goods?

fewarechosen
Jun 6th 2008, 06:44 PM
luke

great questions,
i have to compose my thoughts and pray a little while , because i dont wish to be hasty in this instance. just wanted you to know i was thinking about them and that i would respond soon .

Literalist-Luke
Jun 6th 2008, 06:48 PM
luke

great questions,
i have to compose my thoughts and pray a little while , because i dont wish to be hasty in this instance. just wanted you to know i was thinking about them and that i would respond soon .No problem. ;) I would like to make sure you know that I'm not interested in just "tearing down" your theory. If you're right, then it behooves me to get on board with you. I guess I'm just a very detail oriented person and have to know all the answers before I jump into anything. I am quite willing to consider your point of view, I just need more information is all. :thumbsup:

John146
Jun 6th 2008, 07:36 PM
(2) In Revelation 18:4, how are God's people supposed to "come out of her" if Babylon covers the globe? The only way I could see that happening would be if you were to suggest that Revelation 18:4 is in fact a Post-Tribulation Rapture that would indeed have God's people "coming out of" the entire world.

The same way God's people throughout the world are expected to come out from among idol worship, false religions and spiritual wickedness of all kinds.

14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. - 2 Cor 6:14-17

fewarechosen
Jun 6th 2008, 08:15 PM
hey luke im going to try and give my perspective on the first question you asked, now part of what i am going to explain will leave obvious questions that leed into other questions --such is revelations lol -- but bear with me and if we have time and god is willing perhaps we all learn something. now i dont know all of revelation or anything like that but on the same hand if i know something and i dont share or at least put it out there for other people to think about i feel its wrong. so just as you come with an open mind which is a very admirable trait , i come not as someone who is trying to "convert" you to my way of thinking or something.

now as to the first question you asked, the first answer that pops in my head is --- holy spirit. which in my mind is correct --but lets face it i hear someone say something like that and im like "ugh here we go again ,someone who wants to just hide behind that "but none the less i have to say it.

i think i got understanding of that particular peice of scripture like 3 or 4 years ago. now none of these thoughts led me to the understanding i guess you could say , but they all sort of confirmed what was pointed out to me ,through the holy spirit.

i knew she sat over all nations and tongues and so on --which now remember in one instance its called many waters then its explained as people, nations and tongues. so in that mindset we couldnt take "water" solely literal -- its literal and symbolic at the same time.

so now when john says 7 mountains --at that time the world was not fully explored and the term continents was not coined -- so how else would john describe it ? in essence they are 7 mountains all raised out of the sea.
now mind you she sits over the whole earth and over many nations and tongues .
now the 7 mountains are the "heads" of the beast that carries her (lets leave beast till later thats a topic unto itself) now do you find it fitting that the beast that carries her has 7 heads which are the 7 continents (whole earth) thus she is sitting over all nations and tongues because we all lust over wealth and such, all the kings like nice palaces and so on. that is why we are all commiting fornication with her because humanity as a whole lusts those things-- hence "whore"


this is also to help with the whole literal thing.
this is daniel.

Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth

now notice this is of a vision of end times much like john had and notice he is using the term "great mountain that filled the whole earth"

but now watch as he explains


44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever
45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

now the stone he spoke of wasnt a literal stone either its christ -- and the term mountain was used in the vision to describe his empire for its the whole earth

also to note this vision was taking place in babylon-and the things being broke apart are listed as gold and brass and clay and silver -- all things of the whore and notice in his vision they are all smashed and swept away being found no more.

now mind you revelation is like king nebz vision --but without daniel to translate --we are left with the term mountains and no daniel. we now of this time will be given clarity from the holy spirit to translate and help eachother -- for we will all know parts and must put them together for we are one body.

so these are some of the things that inside me confirmed what the holy spirit told me -- i dont know how all this sounds to someone else but feel free to ask any questions.

and mind you im not saying this is "proof positive" just trying to explain how i know something and what led me to it . im sure i left much out of my explination and will need to explain it more---- mind you i never even tried to put this in words before or explain it to anyone -- so i have no idea how it sounds lol

fewarechosen
Jun 6th 2008, 08:25 PM
now for the second question i would like to add onto john146 explinatiion which i do agree with.

now if the whore is as i am explaining how do we come out from her --- if the whore is all the goods and the lavishness of this world then we are to come out of her by turning our back to those things and walking as christ.

for remember christ saying it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than rich man to go to heaven.

because that rich man is fornicating with the whore and not coming out from her--- hes deep in her -in more ways than one.

so we come out when those things no longer hold us, if we in our hearts know ---- all my earthly things could be burned tonight and it would matter not for what matters is me following gods will.

remember he will burn up all the elements themselves- so every material thing we buy or sell or whatever will be destroyed. so why should we cling to something that god himself will find worthy of destroying.

thats my try at explaining that lol again feel free to ask questions.

fewarechosen
Jun 6th 2008, 08:37 PM
now for your third question we are going to have to wait a little while, but i provide this scripture.

you asked this question--
(3) How do you explain this statement in Revelation 17:16 - "The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire."

now in my kjv this is the scripture i have


16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


notice its the ten horns upon the beast that hates the whore -- its not the beast that hates the whore.

now just think about that for a little bit , cause for a decent explination of this question will take some time.
i just wanted to point out what scripture actually says. its not the beast that hates her its the ten horns.

RogerW
Jun 6th 2008, 08:49 PM
babylon was babylon, it was also rome, it was also england, its also america, it was also .......

she is EVERY city- she sits over them all. look how the merchants trade with her, look at the towers they build in every city increasing thier goods but turning away from god. she is the WHORE we fornicate with when our minds want earthly goods, she is in our houses right now, we have wondered after her and been made drunk with her goods.

she sittith over MANY waters not just one, not just a couple, not just a city you can point to on a map and say see " this city had many rivers and lakes so it is clearly babylon"

god will show you the judgement of the whore, he will show you what he thinks of her goods, john wondered at her with great admiration as we do today but watch what god does to her and all her earthly goods.

so be not drunk on her goods --see her clearly and know what she sells and know why the merchants cry.
they will weep and cry for all the precious material goods will be NOTHING and everything they have been trying to amass will be destroyed.

babylon is all cities, towns and nations.
shes the GREAT whore

Greetings fewarechosen,

This is very logical, and quite convincing. Several months ago I responded against the argument that Babylon is the church in history as she becomes more and more fallen. I couldn't imagine that one would call even faithful churches Babylon, the great whore, yet this is what I was responding against. I found very convincing Scriputural proof that Babylon is not only what you have stated above, but also Jerusalem. I would like very much to see if you and others agree. This is my response:

There are so many verses showing us similarity between Babylon and Jerusalem that it becomes very hard to deny the abundance of Scripture.

CHRIST SAYS THE JEWS REPRESENTATIVES OF JERUSALEM ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MURDERING ALL THE RIGHTEOUS OF THE EARTH.

Mt 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mt 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Lu 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
Lu 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Lu 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

CHRIST TELLS US THAT BABYLON IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MURDER OF ALL THE RIGHTEOUS UPON THE EARTH.

Re 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Re 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Re 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Re 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

JERUSALEM IS CALLED A GREAT CITY.

Re 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jer 22:8 And many nations shall pass by this city, and they shall say every man to his neighbour, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this great city?

La 1:1 How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people! how is she become as a widow! she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary!

BABYLON IS CALLED A GREAT CITY.

Re 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Re 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Re 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Re 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Re 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Re 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate
Re 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

JERUSALEM IS MADE DESOLATE.

Mt 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Lu 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Lu 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Lu 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Lu 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Lu 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Isa 64:10 Thy holy cities are a wilderness, Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.

La 5:18 Because of the mountain of Zion, which is desolate, the foxes walk upon it.

Eze 12:19 And say unto the people of the land, Thus saith the Lord GOD of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and of the land of Israel; They shall eat their bread with carefulness, and drink their water with astonishment, that her land may be desolate from all that is therein, because of the violence of all them that dwell therein.

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Da 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Da 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

BABYLON IS MADE DESOLATE.

Re 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Re 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

We find Jerusalem described as Babylonian in character (Sodom and Egypt) in Rev 11 where she persecutes the witnesses of Jesus. Again, we read of her fall in Rev 14:8 “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

The vision of the fall of Babylon in Rev 17 & 18 is much like the prophesy Christ spoke to His disciples. Just as His prophesy includes events that take place in the near future of the disciples, also much of His prophetic words will be fulfilled throughout the NT era, and the end of time. What we see in Rev 17 & 18 I believe is a description of the literal destruction of Jerusalem, but also sure promise that every abominable harlot in the world, everyone who is owned by Satan will meet with the same wrath. The literal destruction of Jerusalem symbolizes the destruction that will come upon all the unsaved of the earth whether they be in an apostate church, a faithful church, or in the world. Just as the NT disciples were warned by Christ to flee to the mountains when they see Judea surrounded by the armies, so they heeded the warning to “come out of her my people” so too Christians are warned to flee from harlotry, and abomination wherever it may be found. We are constantly reminded in Scripture to be wise, and keep ourselves pure, and undefiled by the pollutions of the world all around us.

1Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

Babylon doesn’t fall FOR one hour, she falls IN one hour. This is symbolic, describing the literal fall of Jerusalem as coming very quickly. So too at the end of time the wrath of God will be poured out quickly upon the earth.

Ro 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

It’s very obvious that God used the Roman Empire to bring Jerusalem to ruin, but even though Rome ruled, and had authority over Jerusalem, still Jerusalem had her vassal kings.

No doubt there are, and always have been counterfeit churches in the world. These commit harlotry and are an abomination unto God. These will experience the same wrath of God we see literally poured out upon Jerusalem. But these do not represent all churches in the world, and never will. Ezekiel gives us a picture of a biblical harlot.

Eze 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.
Eze 16:9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.
Eze 16:10 I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk.
Eze 16:11 I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.
Eze 16:12 And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.
Eze 16:13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.
Eze 16:14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 16:15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
Eze 16:16 And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.
Eze 16:17 Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,
Eze 16:18 And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them.
Eze 16:19 My meat also which I gave thee, fine flour, and oil, and honey, wherewith I fed thee, thou hast even set it before them for a sweet savour: and thus it was, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
Eze 16:21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?
Eze 16:22 And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.

Surely these words give us a detailed description of the harlot church, the false church, the counterfeit church. That doesn’t surprise us. The devil establishes a counterfeit kingdom, so naturally he would establish a counterfeit church. This is a picture of Babylon, the great whore through God’s chosen people who have turned to harlotry, and those under the power and authority of the devil. But this is most assuredly NOT a description of the faithful church, or faithful believers in the world. Satan doesn’t stop at only a counterfeit church, he uses every institution God has placed on earth for his own evil purposes. So why single out even the apostate church to call Babylon the great whore when Satan in truth is the ruler of the whole unsaved world? The great whore commits fornication with all that dwell in the world.

Re 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Re 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

The seven heads show that the beast has total power or authority, and the ten shows the fullness of time the beast is given this authority to rule.
Many Blessings,
RW

theleast
Jun 6th 2008, 08:58 PM
And from the taking away of the daily sacrifice until the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place ties directly into Babylon for this is the season of Babylon.

When Christ came the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the setting up of the abomination of desolation is happening right now. When the time comes for the desolation of abomination to stand in the holy place then will you see the scipture relating to the fall of Babylon being fulfilled.

Let us give thanks to God that he brought us here to have this conversation!

theleast
Jun 6th 2008, 08:59 PM
fewarechosen, do you think the time has come to impart knowledge of the kings that have no kingdoms?

fewarechosen
Jun 6th 2008, 09:02 PM
hello roger,

i think i completely agree with you.
i think often many think that scripture in one verse can only be talking about one thing.
but i think it can be speaking of many things during many timelines.

i completely agree on it being Jerusalem -- cause when you think about she was fornicating with idols many times.

i also agree with the point that its the "churchs"
because many of the churches i see fornicate with her, loving all sorts of gold and property and power-- not all but some.

its that mind set and the lust of ungodly things that is the whore --thats why she sits over the multitudes


and thanks for introducing a bunch of good scripture into this thread -- i hope we can all help eachother grow in our understanding

Literalist-Luke
Jun 6th 2008, 09:15 PM
hey luke im going to try and give my perspective on the first question you asked, now part of what i am going to explain will leave obvious questions that leed into other questions --such is revelations lol -- but bear with me and if we have time and god is willing perhaps we all learn something. now i dont know all of revelation or anything like that but on the same hand if i know something and i dont share or at least put it out there for other people to think about i feel its wrong. so just as you come with an open mind which is a very admirable trait , i come not as someone who is trying to "convert" you to my way of thinking or something.

now as to the first question you asked, the first answer that pops in my head is --- holy spirit. which in my mind is correct --but lets face it i hear someone say something like that and im like "ugh here we go again ,someone who wants to just hide behind that "but none the less i have to say it. I like your realism. :thumbsup:
i think i got understanding of that particular peice of scripture like 3 or 4 years ago. now none of these thoughts led me to the understanding i guess you could say , but they all sort of confirmed what was pointed out to me ,through the holy spirit.

i knew she sat over all nations and tongues and so on --which now remember in one instance its called many waters then its explained as people, nations and tongues. so in that mindset we couldnt take "water" solely literal -- its literal and symbolic at the same time. Agreed.
so now when john says 7 mountains --at that time the world was not fully explored and the term continents was not coined -- so how else would john describe it ? in essence they are 7 mountains all raised out of the sea. Mmm, OK I’ll go along with this for the moment for the discussion.
now mind you she sits over the whole earth and over many nations and tongues .
now the 7 mountains are the "heads" of the beast that carries her (lets leave beast till later thats a topic unto itself) now do you find it fitting that the beast that carries her has 7 heads which are the 7 continents (whole earth) thus she is sitting over all nations and tongues because we all lust over wealth and such, all the kings like nice palaces and so on. that is why we are all commiting fornication with her because humanity as a whole lusts those things-- hence "whore"OK, I do see your point, but consider this:

Revelation 17:10 – “Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while.”

These heads are said to exist sequentially, not simultaneously. So are you saying that of the seven continents, “five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come”?
this is also to help with the whole literal thing.
this is daniel.

Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth

now notice this is of a vision of end times much like john had and notice he is using the term "great mountain that filled the whole earth" Right, it is common for the Bible to use a “mountain” to symbolize a kingdom.
but now watch as he explains

44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever
45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

now the stone he spoke of wasnt a literal stone either its christ -- and the term mountain was used in the vision to describe his empire for its the whole earthThat’s right.
also to note this vision was taking place in babylon-and the things being broke apart are listed as gold and brass and clay and silver -- all things of the whore and notice in his vision they are all smashed and swept away being found no more.

now mind you revelation is like king nebz vision --but without daniel to translate --we are left with the term mountains and no daniel. we now of this time will be given clarity from the holy spirit to translate and help eachother -- for we will all know parts and must put them together for we are one body. In so much as we are able to agree on it as one body, unfortunately, the extreme diversity of opinions makes it difficult to do that, hence our discussion that we are having right now. :)
so these are some of the things that inside me confirmed what the holy spirit told me -- i dont know how all this sounds to someone else but feel free to ask any questions.

and mind you im not saying this is "proof positive" just trying to explain how i know something and what led me to it . im sure i left much out of my explination and will need to explain it more---- mind you i never even tried to put this in words before or explain it to anyone -- so i have no idea how it sounds lolThe only issue I would have so far is just the heads existing sequentially, not simultaneously like I said. Moving on….
now for the second question i would like to add onto john146 explinatiion which i do agree with.

now if the whore is as i am explaining how do we come out from her --- if the whore is all the goods and the lavishness of this world then we are to come out of her by turning our back to those things and walking as christ.

for remember christ saying it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than rich man to go to heaven.

because that rich man is fornicating with the whore and not coming out from her--- hes deep in her -in more ways than one.

so we come out when those things no longer hold us, if we in our hearts know ---- all my earthly things could be burned tonight and it would matter not for what matters is me following gods will.

remember he will burn up all the elements themselves- so every material thing we buy or sell or whatever will be destroyed. so why should we cling to something that god himself will find worthy of destroying.

thats my try at explaining that lol again feel free to ask questions.I can go along that.

now for your third question we are going to have to wait a little while, but i provide this scripture.

you asked this question--
(3) How do you explain this statement in Revelation 17:16 - "The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire."

now in my kjv this is the scripture i have

16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

notice its the ten horns upon the beast that hates the whore -- its not the beast that hates the whore.

now just think about that for a little bit , cause for a decent explination of this question will take some time.
i just wanted to point out what scripture actually says. its not the beast that hates her its the ten horns.OK, even with that, you still have the whole world being “burned with fire” in this case, so how can God’s people come out of her if not via the Rapture?

fewarechosen
Jun 6th 2008, 09:35 PM
im gonna try to address your question of the 7 kings and how they are sequentiall.

here is the scripture i have of that passage


9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

now from my reading and understanding the "and" is saying in addition to and not saying --these are the 7 kings,---- but saying in addition to the 7 heads there are 7 kings

so from my understanding i would say those 7 heads are not the 7 kings.

also i would say dont think them to be the 10 crowns which are 10 kings those are handled later.

does it sound like we are on the same page ? or are we drifting apart on the "and" in between those 2 passages?

i will try to go into further detail if we are on the same page with that

theleast
Jun 6th 2008, 09:44 PM
Revelation 17:10 – “Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while.”

These heads are said to exist sequentially, not simultaneously. So are you saying that of the seven continents, “five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come”?Right, it is common for the Bible to use a “mountain” to symbolize a kingdom.That’s right.In so much as we are able to agree on it as one body, unfortunately, the extreme diversity of opinions makes it difficult to do that, hence our discussion that we are having right now. :)The only issue I would have so far is just the heads existing sequentially, not simultaneously like I said. Moving on….I can go along that.


You bring up an interesting point about the 5,1, and 1, which of course includes the eigth which is of the seven and goeth into perdition.

Since this discussion has been going nicely perhaps I can offer some insight here. Please when you read chapter seven understand that the angel says the seven heads are seven mountains, THEN says there are seven kings. There are seven mountains (continents) AND seven kingdoms. 5 of those kingdoms are fallen, or had already past or been destroyed, one IS which at the time of the writing was rome, and one is not yet come but when it does must continue for a short space which is the Babylon we've been discussing. And the beast that was and is not and yet is, is the great lie perpetuated by the dragon. He was because the beast was a part of the fallen kingdoms, he is not because those who love the harlot do not believe the beast exists or rather cannot see it, and he is because he is here in the world today.

Does that make sense?

jewel4Christ
Jun 7th 2008, 01:29 AM
Hi All,

Love this thread!


I agree with your concepts Fewarechosen, as also those whom are in agreement that "babylon" represents the whole fallen world. Even the term "jerusalem" that now is, is said to be in bondage with her children. That spiritually means they are without Christ. In bondage to sin, have not yet been set free....by the sacrifice of Jesus blood.

Now, where it gets really interesting to me is this......

We can read instances in the old covenant about how and why God was not pleased with what is termed "the jerusalem that now is", which the new covenant also call's "Israel after the flesh", ..and, the reason that city was termed a whore, and became desolate....and, the reason the word of God gives is basically this. "She left her resting place". She sought to be righteouss by the law, forgot her "way" which was to be by faith...and, the word call's it "forgetting where the resting place is"...which is Christ, for He is the end of the law to everyone whom believes.


Compare:

Jer 3:21 A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping [and] supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, [and] they have forgotten the LORD their God.


Jer 13:25 This [is] thy lot, the portion of thy measures from me, saith the LORD; because thou hast forgotten me, and trusted in falsehood.


Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away [on] the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.


That resting place is "grace". Israel sought to be righteouss by the law...and, for that reason, they were cut off.

We can read those verses here:

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

I believe this is the same for the church. The church or what we would consider the false church has done the same "thing". They have forgotten their resting place. Heb. 4 tells us what that resting place is, it is Jesus, and in most cases today because of evil workers whom enter in, unknowingly, amongst the sheep, the flock has been brought to the same place that the word says, "Israel" went.

Consider:




Pro 24:15 Lay not wait, O wicked [man], against the dwelling of the righteous; spoil not his resting place:


It is done through false prophets. It was done through false prophets in the day of "Israel, after the flesh".

Which leads me to this thought, concerning the "image".

We read this here:

Dan 3:18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

I believe the image represents the false way/gospel.

The word of God just uses this symbol to illustrate it. The bible is full of symbols.

It was the false prophets in the days of Israel that set up the false "image" and caused Israel to fall into apostacy/ and then have to be made desolate, and destroyed.

It is the same with the false church/whore.

The false prophets have set up this "image", or false gospel/way..by works of the law, etc.


...and, now to this:

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


and, this:

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

They returned to the shadows..and, in so doing, have denied the REALITY, which is Christ...which the word of God says, is the unpardonable sin, to deny the blood that bought us. ..and, by the deeds of the law shall no man be justified, for by the law, is wrath...and, condemnation. The wages of sin is death, and, the strength of sin is the law. Adding or returning to the law is the abomination, seeking to be right in and through it, instead of by the REALITY, which is the TRUE image of righteousness that can only come by Christ.

Also:


Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


It was Christ that gave the deadly blow to the enemy, by that symbolic sword, of the cross, but, through the false teaching of baal, that caused both Israel after the flesh and the true Israel of God, the church to turn from the truth, to a lie, which was through seeking to be right by the law, the deadly wound was healed, and it now stands in the church, as the church has apostacised....just as Israel of the flesh did.


http://cf.blueletterbible.org/gifs/copyChkboxOff.gifRev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.... (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=13&v=15&t=KJV#15)


Remember it was "jerusalem" or the "beast" or the "world", (all the same symbols) that killed the true saints, both old covenant and new.

We must come out from among them and not be partakers of their sin. Their sin is unbeleif, for they have turned the gospel into a lie, and have thrown the truth to the ground to be trampled on by men.



peaceandlove,

janet

fewarechosen
Jun 7th 2008, 01:38 AM
You bring up an interesting point about the 5,1, and 1, which of course includes the eigth which is of the seven and goeth into perdition.

Since this discussion has been going nicely perhaps I can offer some insight here. Please when you read chapter seven understand that the angel says the seven heads are seven mountains, THEN says there are seven kings. There are seven mountains (continents) AND seven kingdoms. 5 of those kingdoms are fallen, or had already past or been destroyed, one IS which at the time of the writing was rome, and one is not yet come but when it does must continue for a short space which is the Babylon we've been discussing. And the beast that was and is not and yet is, is the great lie perpetuated by the dragon. He was because the beast was a part of the fallen kingdoms, he is not because those who love the harlot do not believe the beast exists or rather cannot see it, and he is because he is here in the world today.

Does that make sense?


well phaeton you saved me some time explaining and i do agree with you. luke you probably had to log off so when ever you get to reading this im curious as to your response so we can continue to travel this path.

fewarechosen
Jun 7th 2008, 01:49 AM
i appreciate all the other insight into this thread
lots of things to think and grow on that i havent thought of before.

i think i am often unclear and hasty in my delivery so i leave much unsaid.

but i would like to point out that i think jerusalem and the so called "churches" are part of the whore and bought into her goods. and inside me i find no disagreement with them all fitting together.

i think thats why some bring up great points about it being jerusalem while others bring up great points about it being "churches" in my mind they all bought into the "whore" in one way or another

i want to wait a little while to see if luke comes back today or tommorrow --to see if we are on the same page. then hopefully we can all move along together and share information and scripture like we have been.

and btw luke i feel you showed us a great example of how to question someone with serious and real questions and yet not just argue for the sake of it, so thanks for the reminder cause i fall into that trap often

jewel4Christ
Jun 7th 2008, 02:02 AM
i appreciate all the other insight into this thread
lots of things to think and grow on that i havent thought of before.

i think i am often unclear and hasty in my delivery so i leave much unsaid.

but i would like to point out that i think jerusalem and the so called "churches" are part of the whore and bought into her goods. and inside me i find no disagreement with them all fitting together.

i think thats why some bring up great points about it being jerusalem while others bring up great points about it being "churches" in my mind they all bought into the "whore" in one way or another

i want to wait a little while to see if luke comes back today or tommorrow --to see if we are on the same page. then hopefully we can all move along together and share information and scripture like we have been.

and btw luke i feel you showed us a great example of how to question someone with serious and real questions and yet not just argue for the sake of it, so thanks for the reminder cause i fall into that trap often

AMEN to that!


:)


peaceandlove,

janet

theleast
Jun 7th 2008, 02:54 AM
AMEN to that!


:)


peaceandlove,

janet


And ditto! :D :hug:

Literalist-Luke
Jun 7th 2008, 03:35 AM
im gonna try to address your question of the 7 kings and how they are sequentiall.

here is the scripture i have of that passage


9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

now from my reading and understanding the "and" is saying in addition to and not saying --these are the 7 kings,---- but saying in addition to the 7 heads there are 7 kings

so from my understanding i would say those 7 heads are not the 7 kings.

also i would say dont think them to be the 10 crowns which are 10 kings those are handled later.

does it sound like we are on the same page ? or are we drifting apart on the "and" in between those 2 passages?

i will try to go into further detail if we are on the same page with that


You bring up an interesting point about the 5,1, and 1, which of course includes the eigth which is of the seven and goeth into perdition.

Since this discussion has been going nicely perhaps I can offer some insight here. Please when you read chapter seven understand that the angel says the seven heads are seven mountains, THEN says there are seven kings. There are seven mountains (continents) AND seven kingdoms. 5 of those kingdoms are fallen, or had already past or been destroyed, one IS which at the time of the writing was rome, and one is not yet come but when it does must continue for a short space which is the Babylon we've been discussing. And the beast that was and is not and yet is, is the great lie perpetuated by the dragon. He was because the beast was a part of the fallen kingdoms, he is not because those who love the harlot do not believe the beast exists or rather cannot see it, and he is because he is here in the world today.

Does that make sense?OK, so if I'm understanding you two correctly, you're saying that the seven heads represent seven mountains which co-exist as the world's seven continents, and the heads also represent seven kingdoms that have existed sequentially. Am I understanding correctly?

Literalist-Luke
Jun 7th 2008, 03:41 AM
btw luke i feel you showed us a great example of how to question someone with serious and real questions and yet not just argue for the sake of it, so thanks for the reminder cause i fall into that trap oftenDon't think that I don't fall into that trap myself. I got a little testy with somebody just yesterday in fact and got my hand slapped for it (and I deserved it). That was a case where somebody was not even willing to consider an alternative point of view, however. I do have to say that there is a good chance that I am not going to wind up agreeing with you on the Babylon issue, but your line of thought is something that, at the very least, deserves serious consideration. So it behooves me to at least do you the courtesy of fair consideration.

I would also like to say that I appreciate you not getting your feathers ruffled by my questions. It's nice to be able to have an indepth discussion like this without anybody wearing a chip on their shoulder (and that includes me).

OK, enough of the mutual back patting, http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/thtopic.gif

fewarechosen
Jun 7th 2008, 03:47 AM
hmm i dont think so .

simply put the 7 mountains are the 7 continents --whole world i guess you could say.

now the 7 kings -- are actually "kingdoms" -- think of them as the worlds greatest kingdoms of thier time-

sort of like greece at one point with alexander
then rome for its span of years before during and after christ.

now think of "america" as the one that came after rome, that must continue a short space --cause well america has not been here long . and it is very roman in its manner of influence --specially some years ago

this part following is just opinion
the way i view it is america sort of took the last slot of open land and such thats why its gonna be the last "king"

so hope that helps

btw im american so dont think im america bashing or something -- i just see it as every country fornicated with the whore so i love god and not a country

Literalist-Luke
Jun 7th 2008, 03:58 AM
OK, so we appear to have two different concepts on the table for consideration:

1. Babylon is an individual city or something similar, comprising a specific, limited geographic area, such as would be the case with a city, and which will eventually experience the wrath of God, resulting in its complete, permanent, and utter destruction.

OR

2. Babylon encompasses all of human society throughout the globe, including all of the world's professing Christians in name only who are not true believers. (I suppose some would suggest that the "Christians" in name only would also comprise the "church" of Laodicea.) This would mean that the world's society, which will be in rebellion against God under the Antichrist's leadership, would be subject to the judgments that are said to be poured out on Babylon and the beast's "throne" in Revelation.

Now, here's my question at this point: There are, as you are no doubt aware, numerous prophecies in the Old Testament concerning the final, total destruction of Babylon. Isaiah and Jeremiah are only two of the prophets who foretold of it. The city of Babylon in the plain of Shinar, located about 100 miles south of present-day Baghdad, has never experienced the type of destruction that was foretold by these Old Testament prophets. In fact, when the Medes and Persians invaded, the only person killed was King Belshazzar and the city was taken completely intact with pretty much no destruction of any significance. Over the following centuries, Babylon gradually faded into the desert and its prominence gradually dwindled, but it has remained inhabited (even if only sparsely) to this very day. There are people living there right now at this very moment.

So, if your theory about Revelation's Babylon is correct, how are we to take the Old Testament prophecies about Babylon? And how were Jeremiah, Isaiah, et al supposed to know they weren't writing of a city that, in their time, was considered a very real, present, and imminent threat to their way of life?

Literalist-Luke
Jun 7th 2008, 04:01 AM
hmm i dont think so .

simply put the 7 mountains are the 7 continents --whole world i guess you could say.

now the 7 kings -- are actually "kingdoms" -- think of them as the worlds greatest kingdoms of thier time-

sort of like greece at one point with alexander
then rome for its span of years before during and after christ.

now think of "america" as the one that came after rome, that must continue a short space --cause well america has not been here long . and it is very roman in its manner of influence --specially some years ago

this part following is just opinion
the way i view it is america sort of took the last slot of open land and such thats why its gonna be the last "king"

so hope that helps

btw im american so dont think im america bashing or something -- i just see it as every country fornicated with the whore so i love god and not a countryNo, I'm not worried about "America bashing". Believe me, I could make a list of America's sins that would silence any argument in favor of America as a "chosen nation".

There is a gap in your list of kingdoms. Rome ceased to exist in 1453. (And I know who conquered them. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/biggrin1.gif ) So how are we to account for the gap from 1453 until 1776, if America is the next "head"?

fewarechosen
Jun 7th 2008, 04:12 AM
ok im gonna work with the second theory which i feel includes the first one --- for one city is covered in all cities.

now my grasp of all the old prophets is not near what it should be i do read them and know a decent amount (i think lol)
so im gonna try to put this explination in my own words.

imagine a prophet of old -- who of course is directed by god to say something.

now that prophet --has a image of babylon in his head for at that time babylon was the "king" . so that prophet is looking at that great city and addressing the workings and motives of its people -- whoring.

now the prophet can specifically and without error say this city will be thrown down -- for christ will bring them all down for they all fornicated --- but the prophet at the same time is addressing the people of the future and this ages and all the past ages babylons - for when christ is done none of these cities will remain but his.


so he was addressing babylon in his time and also the "spritual" babylon if you will that is the great whore --and how she will be cast down.

cause as i think you would agree prophecy has many layers and speaks through many times and peoples .

if you want to address specific prophets of old -- we could go through that too

but im sort of wondering if you see what im getting at ?

fewarechosen
Jun 7th 2008, 04:20 AM
No, I'm not worried about "America bashing". Believe me, I could make a list of America's sins that would silence any argument in favor of America as a "chosen nation".

There is a gap in your list of kingdoms. Rome ceased to exist in 1453. (And I know who conquered them. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/biggrin1.gif ) So how are we to account for the gap from 1453 until 1776, if America is the next "head"?

now inside me there is no problem with a gap of kings (what we are calling kingdoms)
it doesnt state anywhere that the kings have to be right after another or anything like that. i think thats where we get a little more into the holy spirit side of scripture. again for fear of sounding sappy or whatever. thats the understanding i was given--- when i personally think about it as far as "great countries" there was rome which was absolutly dominate on a grand scale then america-- with in my mind nothing really close inbetween i dont think any other country really sold babylon the way rome and america did and do.

i mean when you think of america now --its hollywood and all that stuff there has never been another country like it --thats how the holy spirit lets me know its the last one.

so now mind you i find no problem with the "gap"
cause nothing states there cant be a gap --- you can say a nation will have 7 great kings --- but thats not the same as saying the nation will have 7 great kings ina row.


just wanted to say again the heads are the continents -but america was the next king after rome

servant of Lord
Jun 7th 2008, 04:23 AM
now for your third question we are going to have to wait a little while, but i provide this scripture.

you asked this question--
(3) How do you explain this statement in Revelation 17:16 - "The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire."

now in my kjv this is the scripture i have


16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


notice its the ten horns upon the beast that hates the whore -- its not the beast that hates the whore.

now just think about that for a little bit , cause for a decent explination of this question will take some time.
i just wanted to point out what scripture actually says. its not the beast that hates her its the ten horns.



I do see exactly what you are saying....Now, as you feel that the Holy Spirit lead you to these conclusions but if I am correct you are saying..hey I could be wrong..but just what I feel is to be what I am being lead to see...well, I certainly understand..and I think You do have the Spirit of God and GOd is showing you things to share with others..and I thank you for sharing...Now, I am doing the same as you also have done in the same matter..could be wrong but hey could this be something...

I take this from Nimrod -Genesis chapter 10 beginning with the building of the tower of babel....we are not told to much in the bible about nimrod but if one does a search of who this man was and the religion that these praticed and go back to the bible and look at the religion of babylon you will see the same pratices...now, then go back to nimrod...these people knew that they could not reach heaven..they were astrologers and such...they were the first One world order..they were saying they were above God..but what did GOd do...HE scattered them around..right, now what did they do then...

when searching freemason history we go back to the knights of templar and then to the illumini ...what happened with the catholic church and them ? I can not find what it is that the catholic church has stolen from them ..as it is said...but they have been in rivarly for long time back...
see, freemasons pledge to nimrod..they speak of this in their meetings and we all know from the dollar bill to the buildings in america built by them that they have longed for a one world order...have you ever looked a the denver airport ? they have many strange things to see for yourself...

Now, what I am getting at...in geneis it says they are of one mind ...in revelation chapter 18 it says , maybe 17 it says they are of one mind and they have been allowed to be this way to fullfill God's purpose...
Now, In chaper 18 what does it say ? what words come out that the freemasons use ? of the craft or craftsmen...

so, when coming to this part of revelation chapter 17 and 18 I thought of all that I had study the past year or so about freemasons and catholic church...and for some reason it seemed to be that they have something to do with these chapters...

I could be so wrong...but just a thought...
Now, I never saw the seven hills as seven continients...but hey that makes alot of sense...

One thing I do know is that is past week I have more people that I thought that would never say to me..hey Jesus Is coming so soon...they do not know the bible totally or even may have never accepted Him as Savior yet..but as one said to me...I feel God calling me to Him..I want to come..she said she felt God was warning her of danger..and wanted to know how to come to Him...oh, what a day that is coming..may we keep our eyes open and be called to the marriage supper of the Lamb...God Bless..Praise His name..forever and ever , amen.

Literalist-Luke
Jun 7th 2008, 04:25 AM
ok im gonna work with the second theory which i feel includes the first one --- for one city is covered in all cities.

now my grasp of all the old prophets is not near what it should be i do read them and know a decent amount (i think lol)
so im gonna try to put this explination in my own words.

imagine a prophet of old -- who of course is directed by god to say something.

now that prophet --has a image of babylon in his head for at that time babylon was the "king" . so that prophet is looking at that great city and addressing the workings and motives of its people -- whoring.

now the prophet can specifically and without error say this city will be thrown down -- for christ will bring them all down for they all fornicated --- but the prophet at the same time is addressing the people of the future and this ages and all the past ages babylons - for when christ is done none of these cities will remain but his.


so he was addressing babylon in his time and also the "spritual" babylon if you will that is the great whore --and how she will be cast down.

cause as i think you would agree prophecy has many layers and speaks through many times and peoples .

if you want to address specific prophets of old -- we could go through that too

but im sort of wondering if you see what im getting at ?I do, you're suggesting that they were writing about a bigger picture than they realized they were, under the Holy Spirit's guidance. I can go along with that part.

So then, how should we explain this verse?

Jeremiah 51:37 - "Babylon will be a heap of ruins, a haunt of jackals, an object of horror and scorn, a place where no one lives. "

"A place where no one lives" would seem to indicate that the entire earth would have to be devoid of human life.

And this one: Jeremiah 51:41b - "How desolate Babylon will be among the nations!"

I'm not sure how all the seven continents could be "desolate among the nations" when the seven continents are the nations.

In the process of digging this up, however, I did find something interesting. Here is a search that I found on biblegateway.com :

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=haunt%20jackals&version1=72&searchtype=all

You'll notice that the words "haunt" and "jackals" bring up not only Babylon, which is what I had in mind, but it also brings up Jerusalem! (In Psalm 44 and Jeremiah 9.) I'm going to have to do a little reading in those passages and see if the use of "haunt of jackals" might have a meaning or significance that has not occurred to me before. It's application to Jerusalem could shed some light on its application to Babylon as well. Stay tuned..........

fewarechosen
Jun 7th 2008, 04:32 AM
hey servent good input to with alot of new information im gonna ponder and pray about and after this first read i think we are in some sort of agreement.

now mind you the whole time im talking about this
i stress this above all else ---it doesnt really matter.

what matters is how we live our lives not if we know exactly what country is what and all that --if my bible was destroyed tommorrow and i could never read it again -- i know exaclty what i must do -- love god and love my neighbor.

all this revelation stuff -- i sort of share just because its in me and others i know

because when we think of this prophecy and all that ,think of this first

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

so if we have charity none of this matters
blessing all i need to pray and sleep and soak all this information in -- thanks for your input all

and lol at mutual back patting luke


and for now lets remember we are stopping at ten horns with 10 crowns -- because when we address this topic there is gonna be much to think about.

so let us all pray on this information and lets pray for eachother lets use the holy spirit in us to discern for us --if we dont agree so be it we can still pray for eachother and love eachother.

night all and god bless --and i do ask that we sort of hold at the 10 horns if anything just so i can keep up lolol

servant of Lord
Jun 7th 2008, 04:41 AM
Those are wise words...Love prevails over much....and if the Bible was taken from us today , do we know what one must do to be saved? that is the gospel...that we preach and live...all with love..

Bless you for reminding me ....never hurts to hear the wonderful word of God...

Please keep sharing your findings...

Literalist-Luke
Jun 7th 2008, 04:49 AM
OK, Psalm 44 and Jeremiah 9 appear to be talking about Jerusalem immediately after 70 AD. The references to nobody living there and the Israelites being scattered "among the nations" are the reason why.

So then, we apparently need to consider the condition Jerusalem was in just after 70 AD and see that as a parallel to the condition "Babylon" will be in when God gets finished with "her". This is something I'm going to have to stew on for a while.....

Roelof
Jun 7th 2008, 06:50 AM
I believe in the literal rebuilding of the ancient city Babylon, now in Iraq:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=127409

theleast
Jun 7th 2008, 01:19 PM
Again Roelef you are citing the doctrine of man.

My doctrine is of God; from the Spirit, through Christs sacrifice.

theleast
Jun 7th 2008, 01:22 PM
Stew on this as well guys, Babylon is whatever God sees it to be.

God sees the whole human family in all it's iniquity at once.

Once you guys feel you have a grasp on

a. the seven mountains which are continents

b. the seven kingdoms

c. and grasp the concept of the 5 that were the 1 that is and the 1 that is yet to come; and even the beast that is hte 8th and is of the seven.

...well then we can really stir things up with the 10 kings that have no kingdoms as yet but recieve power for one hour. ;)

...and that my friends will take us back to the beginning!

fewarechosen
Jun 7th 2008, 02:09 PM
i wanted to touch on something before we go any further.

servent you posted this -
I do see exactly what you are saying....Now, as you feel that the Holy Spirit lead you to these conclusions but if I am correct you are saying..hey I could be wrong

i say never take any mans word for the truth, for we are all liars. now do i believe i could be wrong ?

i could tell you the holy spirit gives me full authority that this is true.

but i have seen many do such a thing and what they say directly contradicts what the holy spirit taught me.

but look at it this way, if i tell you i never speak the truth and that i know nothing then go on to tell you 2+2=4. you will know i speak the truth for you will have tested the formula yourself and know that it is true.dont believe me believe the truth.

now do i really think i am a liar or spreading half truths.

me personally , if i spread lies and half truths and speak when i dont know something. i KNOW i am adding to scripture and leading people astray --- and we know what happens to them


just wanted to touch on that :)

fewarechosen
Jun 7th 2008, 02:15 PM
something to think about for a little bit as we move along in scripture.


12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.


now read this carefully -- notice how the ten horns war against the lamb and also hate the whore.

so they attack christ -- and they also hate the whore which is all the rich goods and fornications and all those things that the cities of the world chase after.

just wanted to give some time to read this and make sure we can all agree on that.

jewel4Christ
Jun 7th 2008, 02:51 PM
ok im gonna work with the second theory which i feel includes the first one --- for one city is covered in all cities.

now my grasp of all the old prophets is not near what it should be i do read them and know a decent amount (i think lol)
so im gonna try to put this explination in my own words.

imagine a prophet of old -- who of course is directed by god to say something.

now that prophet --has a image of babylon in his head for at that time babylon was the "king" . so that prophet is looking at that great city and addressing the workings and motives of its people -- whoring.

now the prophet can specifically and without error say this city will be thrown down -- for christ will bring them all down for they all fornicated --- but the prophet at the same time is addressing the people of the future and this ages and all the past ages babylons - for when christ is done none of these cities will remain but his.


so he was addressing babylon in his time and also the "spritual" babylon if you will that is the great whore --and how she will be cast down.

cause as i think you would agree prophecy has many layers and speaks through many times and peoples .

if you want to address specific prophets of old -- we could go through that too

but im sort of wondering if you see what im getting at ?

Hi Few,

I do understand what you are talking about. You must first understand the concept that the term "babylon", and, or "jerusalem", and, or "egypt" for example are symbols that encompass the whole world. For example, when God uses the term "take them out of egypt", spiritually speaking, He was referring to freeing them from sin...so, there is this concept of understanding the spiritual symbols of these things....btw, good job!


:pp


Also, I believe in duel fulfillments...which also comes into play.

I see a past, "physical" fulfillment, and yet the future spiritual one.

We do know that "babylon" was a symbol of "jerusalem. We do know that Jesus destroyed jerusalem in 70 ad, for example...for the sins of babylon, which the ultimate sin is to deny Christ...it will be the same in the last day.


peaceandlove,


janet

fewarechosen
Jun 7th 2008, 10:38 PM
12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.


now we are going to go into this slowly and we must rely on the holy spirit to discern for us -- for many without the spirit will not see the truth.

here are a few other scriptures to think of when pondering and praying


10And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
11And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. 12And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

--------------------------------------------


18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

------------------------------------------------------------


9And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
10Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
11And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
12And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
13And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
14And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
15And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.
16And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bow shot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept.
17And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
18Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
19And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. 20And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.


read these and then i will go on to giving my reasoning in a little while , so we can see if we are same page.

fewarechosen
Jun 8th 2008, 01:49 AM
i combine all the things below some that was said about ishmael

ishmael -- have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly
---12And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
and I will make him a great nation
21But my covenant will I establish with Isaac

the green means his presence and nature will be in all his brethren..and something else

also note when abraham had a party for isaac, ishmael was mocking it -- now also remember that same essence is dwelling in all his brethren.

now do we know what great nation ishmael turned into ?
is there a nation of people that trace themselves to abraham also ?


just want to know if anyone else sees just this part -


we havent touched ten horns yet mind you just want to see if any agree on this

Roelof
Jun 8th 2008, 04:24 AM
Again Roelef you are citing the doctrine of man.

My doctrine is of God; from the Spirit, through Christs sacrifice.

If you ignore current books written by man (under the guidance of the Holy Spirit) please SHARE your doctrines with us.

theleast
Jun 8th 2008, 01:16 PM
If you ignore current books written by man (under the guidance of the Holy Spirit) please SHARE your doctrines with us.

We have been. :o

ross3421
Jun 8th 2008, 01:32 PM
babylon was babylon, it was also rome, it was also england, its also america, it was also .......

she is EVERY city- she sits over them all. look how the merchants trade with her, look at the towers they build in every city increasing thier goods but turning away from god. she is the WHORE we fornicate with when our minds want earthly goods, she is in our houses right now, we have wondered after her and been made drunk with her goods.

she sittith over MANY waters not just one, not just a couple, not just a city you can point to on a map and say see " this city had many rivers and lakes so it is clearly babylon"

god will show you the judgement of the whore, he will show you what he thinks of her goods, john wondered at her with great admiration as we do today but watch what god does to her and all her earthly goods.

so be not drunk on her goods --see her clearly and know what she sells and know why the merchants cry.
they will weep and cry for all the precious material goods will be NOTHING and everything they have been trying to amass will be destroyed.

babylon is all cities, towns and nations.
shes the GREAT whore

Babylon is A city (singular). You will understand what this city represents when it is parralled to the pure woman seen a couple of chapters later. There has been only one city which the bible describes as a whore, Jerusalem.

Mark

ross3421
Jun 8th 2008, 01:39 PM
to try and help your question as best i can -- babylon is also the mind set and material of those cities , nations , towns.

now imagine ALL those buildings on fire, people will stand in empty fields and in the water wherever is away from those things, if im not mistaken i think it even says some will be offshore.

you will be far from babylon -- do you stand next to your house when it is on fire ? no you go away from it and stand lest you also get scorched.

the merchents who lived deliciously will look on as babylon burns and cry - for then thier earthly goods of silk will mean nothing thier plasma tvs will be of no use.

also

The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

thats the "7 continents " -- the whole earth -- thats why she is over many nations and tongues

Yes she, this city, resides over the whole earth as it is the ONLY city at this time which is standing as the others were previously destroyed. This will be the case of New Jerusalem as upon it's appearence it is the only city as others are destroyed.

Notice where she is located..... a wilderness.

Isa 14:17That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

The 7 heads represents 7 kings of this kingdom.


Mark

theleast
Jun 8th 2008, 01:43 PM
Babylon is A city (singular). You will understand what this city represents when it is parralled to the pure woman seen a couple of chapters later. There has been only one city which the bible describes as a whore, Jerusalem.

Mark

Which chapter contains the pure woman you speak of?

Revelation 12:1 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+12:1&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+12&version=9)
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

If it's this woman, this woman represents God's chosen people. She has twelve crowns. one each for the tribes of Israel. Bear in mind that by the end of this chapter God's chosen people are the saints even unto today.

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Now for the whore.

Revelation 17


1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Notice how the whore sits upon a beast with seven heads and ten horns?

Again the whore sitteth upon the whole earth. All seven continents, and also among the kingdoms of the earth.

9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

There is of course more but I hate walls of text, so we'll let this sink in for a bit.

ross3421
Jun 8th 2008, 01:48 PM
hello roger,

i think i completely agree with you.
i think often many think that scripture in one verse can only be talking about one thing.
but i think it can be speaking of many things during many timelines.

i completely agree on it being Jerusalem -- cause when you think about she was fornicating with idols many times.

i also agree with the point that its the "churchs"
because many of the churches i see fornicate with her, loving all sorts of gold and property and power-- not all but some.

its that mind set and the lust of ungodly things that is the whore --thats why she sits over the multitudes


and thanks for introducing a bunch of good scripture into this thread -- i hope we can all help eachother grow in our understanding

Think of it this way........the kingdom of God is Jerusalem ie. New. It also represents and encompasses the churches.

Babylon is posing as this eternal city, a counterfeit, it will be a strong delusion and try to make itselk appear as a pure woman but is a whore.


Mark

theleast
Jun 8th 2008, 01:56 PM
Think of it this way........the kingdom of God is Jerusalem ie. New. It also represents and encompasses the churches.

Babylon is posing as this eternal city, a counterfeit, it will be a strong delusion and try to make itselk appear as a pure woman but is a whore.


Mark

The God at one time resided in the temple of Jerusalem, with the ark.

When Christ died the veil of the temple was rent, and now the Spirit of God dwells within.

I agree with you when you say Babylon is posing as an eternal city, but is a counterfiet. I agree that Babylon is a monumental lie to decieve as many as it can. It is not the pure woman spoken of in scripture.

ross3421
Jun 8th 2008, 02:07 PM
Which chapter contains the pure woman you speak of?


Re 21:2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.




(http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+12:1&version=9)Revelation 12:1 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+12:1&version=9) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+12:1&version=9)(Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+12&version=9)
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

If it's this woman, this woman represents God's chosen people. She has twelve crowns. one each for the tribes of Israel. Bear in mind that by the end of this chapter God's chosen people are the saints even unto today.
(http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+12:1&version=9)

Each kingdom has a factor of 12 which represent Israel. In God's it is as you have said, in Satan they are reprented by 12 horns.




Notice how the whore sits upon a beast with seven heads and ten horns?

Again the whore sitteth upon the whole earth. All seven continents, and also among the kingdoms of the earth.

9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

There is of course more but I hate walls of text, so we'll let this sink in for a bit.


Each kingdom also has a factor of 7 which represents the church or those which follow their lamb. The 7 are the leaders of the churches or those in each kingdom.

The 12, 7, and 4 beasts all represent the government of each kingdom. Above all their is the king of kings in each as well.


Mark

ross3421
Jun 8th 2008, 02:08 PM
The God at one time resided in the temple of Jerusalem, with the ark.

When Christ died the veil of the temple was rent, and now the Spirit of God dwells within.

I agree with you when you say Babylon is posing as an eternal city, but is a counterfiet. I agree that Babylon is a monumental lie to decieve as many as it can. It is not the pure woman spoken of in scripture.

Hi,

I am not saying it is the pure woman but a counterfeit of it.

jewel4Christ
Jun 8th 2008, 09:07 PM
The God at one time resided in the temple of Jerusalem, with the ark.

When Christ died the veil of the temple was rent, and now the Spirit of God dwells within.

I agree with you when you say Babylon is posing as an eternal city, but is a counterfiet. I agree that Babylon is a monumental lie to decieve as many as it can. It is not the pure woman spoken of in scripture.

Yes, Babylon/Jerusalem, that is yet in bondage with her children is speaking of all nations, peoples and tongues that have not entered the eternal city of God, which is represented as the NEW jerusalem, which is also the NEW covenant.


It is very easy, once you get past the physical aspects of these things.


peaceandlove,

janet

IamBill
Jun 9th 2008, 10:26 PM
As far as I can tell I agree Few.

I have not spent much time on these matters but feel we would be pretty much on the same page. I only have bits and pieces.

Partaker of Christ
Jun 10th 2008, 12:10 AM
Babylon is one city, Babylon is one nation, Babylon is the whole world.

Babylon is all these things.

Babylon is one city in that there is one place where the love of money resides at the heart radiating out to an entire nation that buys the goods of the world. The whore sitteth upon many waters, because the entire world fornicates with her. America is the Babylon that consumes the goods of the world. America consumes the majority of the worlds resources. America buys oil from the Middle East, diamonds and precious stones from Africa, herbs and spices from India, fine linens from Europe, bondservents....yes even bondservents from Mexico and South America entering her borders illegally to work for pennies a day picking fruit or cleaning the homes of the rich. This is a spiritual Babylon and a literal Babylon fornicating with the world while the kings of the world get rich, and the prince of this world waxes strong, while the poor are hungry and tired and meek. Thank God in his power and glory that his judgement upon Babylon and upon the whore and those that fornicate with her cometh quickly for it is right and just. For when Babylon is brought down on the day of the Lord the merchants will stand afar off on their shores and upon their ships at sea saying who is like unto her, and to whom now can we sell our goods?

If the whole world is Babylon, then who are the harlots?

theleast
Jun 10th 2008, 12:23 AM
If the whole world is Babylon, then who are the harlots?

The harlot is all the fine things of the Earth which the kings of the Earth covet.

Edit: That is why her cup is full of abominations.

jewel4Christ
Jun 10th 2008, 12:38 AM
The harlot is all the fine things of the Earth which the kings of the Earth covet.

Edit: That is why her cup is full of abominations.

..and, includes "our own will". We must die to our own will in order to be in submission to Christ. This submission, in mho is what makes God's people separate from the "harlot" whom will NOT have HIM rule over them.



This submisison, to the WILL of God...is how we come out of the "world", "harlot", and, God uses the same metaphores to explain the same REALITIES.

It is all about the difference between walking in the shadows, and, walking in the realiites/ which the flesh represents the shadows, and the spirit the realities.

(AMEN, ...He has shown us the difference...revealed it unto babes. What does the term "babes" represent in God's word? Those whom are humble, and have submitted fully to Him and HIS WILL, and He knows His own..cha cha cha.....and, said we would know our brethren by their fruits.)

You cannot serve God and man...for example, because without total submission to God, you are still serving man/the flesh.

I am just speaking out loud here...I am in total agreement with you on this.


peaceandlove,


janet

Partaker of Christ
Jun 10th 2008, 12:59 AM
The harlot is all the fine things of the Earth which the kings of the Earth covet.

Edit: That is why her cup is full of abominations.

Sorry, but I don't think I have yet seen God's word so far stretched, to fit someone's theory.

Were else in scripture has God ever called 'the world' seven mountains, or a mountain a continent?

You have to interpret scripture with scripture

jewel4Christ
Jun 10th 2008, 01:48 AM
Sorry, but I don't think I have yet seen God's word so far stretched, to fit someone's theory.

Were else in scripture has God ever called 'the world' seven mountains, or a mountain a continent?

You have to interpret scripture with scripture

There is a theme that runs through the bible about coming BOTH out of the world, and out of babylon.

What do you believe the 7 mountains represent, and where is it written?

Thanks..

peaceandlove,


janet

fewarechosen
Jun 10th 2008, 01:53 AM
Sorry, but I don't think I have yet seen God's word so far stretched, to fit someone's theory.

Were else in scripture has God ever called 'the world' seven mountains, or a mountain a continent?

You have to interpret scripture with scripture


hmm to me you have to interpret scripture with the holy spirit -- a persons mind cant do it

our mind is carnal and the understanding given by god is spiritual

and for me at least i dont say anything here to convince anyone to "my way of thinking" i have no denomination or earthly church i go to or any such thing.

but i find some of us in agreement and that makes me smile

theleast
Jun 10th 2008, 02:26 AM
..and, includes "our own will". We must die to our own will in order to be in submission to Christ. This submission, in mho is what makes God's people separate from the "harlot" whom will NOT have HIM rule over them.



This submisison, to the WILL of God...is how we come out of the "world", "harlot", and, God uses the same metaphores to explain the same REALITIES.

It is all about the difference between walking in the shadows, and, walking in the realiites/ which the flesh represents the shadows, and the spirit the realities.

(AMEN, ...He has shown us the difference...revealed it unto babes. What does the term "babes" represent in God's word? Those whom are humble, and have submitted fully to Him and HIS WILL, and He knows His own..cha cha cha.....and, said we would know our brethren by their fruits.)

You cannot serve God and man...for example, because without total submission to God, you are still serving man/the flesh.

I am just speaking out loud here...I am in total agreement with you on this.


peaceandlove,


janet

Perfectly stated. Thanks for that.

jewel4Christ
Jun 10th 2008, 03:49 AM
Perfectly stated. Thanks for that.

I am learning how to shut up and let Him speak.....
;)

peaceandlove,

janet

fewarechosen
Jun 10th 2008, 03:54 AM
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/browner/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1666722#post1666722)
..and, includes "our own will". We must die to our own will in order to be in submission to Christ. This submission, in mho is what makes God's people separate from the "harlot" whom will NOT have HIM rule over them.
--------------------------------------------------
that rang a bell because of paul saying --i die daily

yea i am learning there is no more me

jewel4Christ
Jun 10th 2008, 04:21 AM
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/browner/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1666722#post1666722)
..and, includes "our own will". We must die to our own will in order to be in submission to Christ. This submission, in mho is what makes God's people separate from the "harlot" whom will NOT have HIM rule over them.
--------------------------------------------------
that rang a bell because of paul saying --i die daily

yea i am learning there is no more me

Amen to that, out with the OLD/ME, and in with the NEW/CHRIST.

Can't have both..hehehe....:idea:

peaceandlove,

janet

Partaker of Christ
Jun 10th 2008, 02:30 PM
There is a theme that runs through the bible about coming BOTH out of the world, and out of babylon.

What do you believe the 7 mountains represent, and where is it written?

Thanks..

peaceandlove,


janet

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Let the continents and rocks fall on us, does not fit in my bible

theleast
Jun 10th 2008, 02:38 PM
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Let the continents and rocks fall on us, does not fit in my bible

I read that as let the cares of the world hide those without the gospel in their hearts from the face of God. They would rather collect gold, build tall buildings, buy high definition TV's, or anything worldly, than face their sins, and confess to God and repent.

It also means build deep underground bunkers, and safe places where they think wrath can't reach.

They are mistaken.

IamBill
Jun 10th 2008, 10:49 PM
babylon was babylon, it was also rome, it was also england, its also america, it was also .......

she is EVERY city- she sits over them all. look how the merchants trade with her, look at the towers they build in every city increasing thier goods but turning away from god. she is the WHORE we fornicate with when our minds want earthly goods, she is in our houses right now, we have wondered after her and been made drunk with her goods.

she sittith over MANY waters not just one, not just a couple, not just a city you can point to on a map and say see " this city had many rivers and lakes so it is clearly babylon"

god will show you the judgement of the whore, he will show you what he thinks of her goods, john wondered at her with great admiration as we do today but watch what god does to her and all her earthly goods.

so be not drunk on her goods --see her clearly and know what she sells and know why the merchants cry.
they will weep and cry for all the precious material goods will be NOTHING and everything they have been trying to amass will be destroyed.

babylon is all cities, towns and nations.
shes the GREAT whore

Here is my page (or call it a sticky note ;) ) and excuse my paraphrasing as I would be here all night typing if I don't.

There will be 1 kingdom of God (the 5th), following the 4 kingdoms of "man", which began with, and includes Babylon. These (the 4) are/were of the "world class" status or "known world" in their time, Empires, today we would call them a "superpower". Today of coarse, the world is a much bigger place than it was then. (-YES NOW 7 CONTINENTS)

These 4 are covered in Daniel, The 4th, (we all know to be Rome) is also the focus in Rev. The Beast that "was"- "is not" - and "is to come". Now If this is to be a literal "rome" to rise again or an "Image of it" - I haven't sought these matters, either way, The Beast is another System of authority which will be Church/State Rule, But will be Global this time.

I also see the layering in scripture, yes, makes it difficult.

As Rome faded/fell away to became Europe's ten imperials
as US is of immigrants from there (now everywhere)
as I lost focus on what I was saying lol
:hmm:
I'll just post and see where it goes

theleast
Jun 11th 2008, 12:28 AM
Here is my page (or call it a sticky note ;) ) and excuse my paraphrasing as I would be here all night typing if I don't.

There will be 1 kingdom of God (the 5th), following the 4 kingdoms of "man", which began with, and includes Babylon. These (the 4) are/were of the "world class" status or "known world" in their time, Empires, today we would call them a "superpower". Today of coarse, the world is a much bigger place than it was then. (-YES NOW 7 CONTINENTS)

These 4 are covered in Daniel, The 4th, (we all know to be Rome) is also the focus in Rev. The Beast that "was"- "is not" - and "is to come". Now If this is to be a literal "rome" to rise again or an "Image of it" - I haven't sought these matters, either way, The Beast is another System of authority which will be Church/State Rule, But will be Global this time.

I also see the layering in scripture, yes, makes it difficult.

As Rome faded/fell away to became Europe's ten imperials
as US is of immigrants from there (now everywhere)
as I lost focus on what I was saying lol
:hmm:
I'll just post and see where it goes

The Spirit leads me to this understanding

The beast that was is because yes the beast was in Rome, and Greece, and throughout all past Kingdoms.

The beast is not because man doesn't see it.

And yet is, and is to come because the beast will be all Kingdoms until the judgement and the 2nd coming.

IamBill
Jun 11th 2008, 01:16 AM
And what of the head that appeared to have been wounded ?

theleast
Jun 11th 2008, 01:29 AM
And what of the head that appeared to have been wounded ?

It is my understanding that one of the continents that is also a kingdom is going to take a greivous wound by the sword.

It is going to recover from that wound in such a way that makes the rest of the Kingdoms fear it. The bear the panther and the lion are all kingdoms from daniel that will band together at that time which is a world changing event. Some liken it to new world order which it likely is.

When this happens it gives rise to the second beast that comes out of the earth and this beast now only has two horns that wage war with each other. As a result of this war the three kingdoms that band together will attempt to starve the other horn by way of controlling world resources and money. In this way does the name the image and the mark of the beast reach a stage of fruition.

Edit: At one time I thought the wound by a sword meant war but my understanding of that has changed recently and I don't want to touch on that subject just yet, at least publically.

ross3421
Jun 11th 2008, 04:02 AM
It says the 7 heads are 7 mountains. The heads are kings.


Re 17:9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


Did the dragon have the 7 continents in heaven?

Re 12:3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.


From the seven will emerge an eighth king. Likewise we see the 8 in God's kingdom as well.

Re 1:13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

theleast
Jun 11th 2008, 12:42 PM
It says the seven heads are seven mountains on which the whore sitteth.

It says the ten horns are ten kings.

Some of you keep saying the heads are kings but scripture clearly says they are mountains and the horns are kings.

Submit yourselves therefore unto the interpretation of the Spirit, for it is good to do such things. :pp

And ask yourselves why the 10 horns that have no kingdoms as yet hate the whore and hate the Lamb and wage war against both.

The answer lies in Genesis with Abraham.

fewarechosen
Jun 11th 2008, 12:52 PM
ross just to point something else out

revelation 12
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
revelation 13
1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

notice the number of crowns

jewel4Christ
Jun 11th 2008, 05:23 PM
It says the seven heads are seven mountains on which the whore sitteth.

It says the ten horns are ten kings.

Some of you keep saying the heads are kings but scripture clearly says they are mountains and the horns are kings.

Submit yourselves therefore unto the interpretation of the Spirit, for it is good to do such things. :pp

And ask yourselves why the 10 horns that have no kingdoms as yet hate the whore and hate the Lamb and wage war against both.

The answer lies in Genesis with Abraham.

I am leaning towards the idea that the 8th king represents "democracy", for this is the governmental agency that will be used in the very last days to deceive mankind, as speaking as a lamb, but in reality it is just another government of satan.


peaceandlove,

janet

IamBill
Jun 11th 2008, 06:10 PM
ross just to point something else out

revelation 12
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
revelation 13
1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

notice the number of crowns
:)
Also notice Daniel
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

One head - No crowns

IamBill
Jun 11th 2008, 11:55 PM
Collectively through Dan we have 7 heads 10 horns :hmm:

a lion
a bear
a leopard (with 4 heads)
an unknown with 10 horns

theleast
Jun 12th 2008, 01:22 AM
Remember though guys...there are seven heads which are the seven mountains....AND...seven kingdoms, 5 were, one is, and one is yet.

ross3421
Jun 12th 2008, 03:30 PM
Remember though guys...there are seven heads which are the seven mountains....AND...seven kingdoms, 5 were, one is, and one is yet.

It never says the 7 heads are 7 kingdoms. There are 7 kings, 5 were, one is, and on yet to be.

jewel4Christ
Jun 12th 2008, 03:32 PM
It never says the 7 heads are 7 kingdoms. There are 7 kings, 5 were, one is, and on yet to be.

?


peaceandlove,

janet

DurbanDude
Jun 12th 2008, 04:09 PM
It never says the 7 heads are 7 kingdoms. There are 7 kings, 5 were, one is, and on yet to be.

Ross , the Strongs version of the word kings is "sovereign powers". This could be anything royal , but I think kingdoms fits better than kings.

IamBill
Jun 12th 2008, 05:34 PM
Yes, sovereign power, notable one, head of, royalty ..etc etc.

I think to much "word" focus is being used

Dan shows us that only 5 kingdoms will exist, the 5th being "God's", Period.

now to focus on "kingdom" spoils the point. ONLY 5 will exist, the first 4 are of Man.
Look at Dan 7:17 (but hold ones shorts a minute ;) )
These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

the 4 beasts are 4 kings (grab that waistband)

7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast ...
7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head ...

"truth of the fourth beast" (or 4th King as noted in 7:17)
7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
the 4 "kings"(7:17) are actually 4 "kingdoms"- how about the horns ?
7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise....

we have to be careful not to get stuck on a word

jewel4Christ
Jun 12th 2008, 06:11 PM
Yes, sovereign power, notable one, head of, royalty ..etc etc.

I think to much "word" focus is being used

Dan shows us that only 5 kingdoms will exist, the 5th being "God's", Period.

now to focus on "kingdom" spoils the point. ONLY 5 will exist, the first 4 are of Man.
Look at Dan 7:17 (but hold ones shorts a minute ;) )
These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

the 4 beasts are 4 kings (grab that waistband)

7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast ...
7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head ...

"truth of the fourth beast" (or 4th King as noted in 7:17)
7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
the 4 "kings"(7:14) are actually 4 "kingdoms"- how about the horns ?
7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise....

we have to be careful not to get stuck on a word

hmmm, interesting, Bill.

Never looked at that quite like that before, but it makes perfect sense.

peaceandlove,

janet

fewarechosen
Jun 12th 2008, 06:21 PM
i like this thread more and more

IamBill
Jun 12th 2008, 07:12 PM
It sort of points us to the possibility that- just as the four "beasts" that are "kings", that are "kingdoms". The "ten horns" that are "kings" -could also be "kingdoms" that come out of the fourth beast.

(I do see a glitch there in that the 4 beasts rose from 'the earth' and the ten horns from IN the head of the 4th beast- but maybe that has other significance)
BUT-
Nebuchadnezzar's vision aligns with this.

...... and so does history :)

scooter2
Jun 12th 2008, 07:18 PM
Of the word Babylon is none of the above. It means confusion and is tied closely to a religious system. Babel was the word first used and was when G-d judged and changed the languages. It will probably mean the religious system filled with paganism, which could include almost all religious systems today, but had its beginning in the Catholic system at the time of Constantine when the festivals and days were changed to what we have now.

sorry for the mis-spelled word in the start. should have been definition

ross3421
Jun 12th 2008, 10:33 PM
Collectively through Dan we have 7 heads 10 horns :hmm:

a lion
a bear
a leopard (with 4 heads)
an unknown with 10 horns

Lion Head 1 seal 1
Bear Head 2 seal 2
Leopard Head 3,4,5,6 seal 3
Beast Head 7 seal 4

The 5 which have fallen in chapter 17 will be the Heads 1,2,3,4,5. The one which is will be head 6. The one which is yet to be will be 7 which will become the eighth when he is indwelled by Satan himself for a short space (30 days). The lion is the head wounded unto death but lives again as the little horn, this eighth king and will be a lamb. Lion - lamb.

(Note there is a 7 parrallel in God's kingdom with the 7 angels and 7 churches. Hence the 7 heads represent the 7 ie churches in Satan's kingdom? As we see 5 heads have fallen do we see this also in God's kingdom as perhaps 5 churches have fallen why we see only two candlestickes mentioned.....)

The beast has 10 horns which represent the house of Israel. The little horn will come out of this beast and he has two horns himself (second beast of Rev) These two horns represent The house of Judah were this beast is claiming origin. Note these 12 tribes 144,000 at first align with the beast but then repent and fulfill God's will and turn against the beast.


Mark

scooter2
Jun 12th 2008, 10:49 PM
But the ten horns represent ten nations, and Israel isn't one of them. It will be the resurrection of the Roman empire. Israel is where they will gather to make war.

ross3421
Jun 12th 2008, 11:03 PM
But the ten horns represent ten nations, and Israel isn't one of them. It will be the resurrection of the Roman empire. Israel is where they will gather to make war.

Where does it say the 10 horns are nations? It says they have yet to receive a kingdom........so how could they in themselves be kingdoms if they have yet to receive a kingdom?

Re 17:12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

scooter2
Jun 12th 2008, 11:10 PM
Tells you who they are. Ten kings, and Kings usually rule over a nation. It definately isn't Israel. They are the peoples, including those who are lost as the people these Kings make war with. BTW, The people in Israel today are of the tribe of Judah and Benjamin with some Levites in. NONE of the lost tribes of Israel are there yet.


This will be the EU after many are thrown out of todays EU. It is the Roman empire all over again.

IamBill
Jun 12th 2008, 11:32 PM
Where does it say the 10 horns are nations? It says they have yet to receive a kingdom........so how could they in themselves be kingdoms if they have yet to receive a kingdom?

Re 17:12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

:) you are mixing Daniel and Rev. together

read post #86

IamBill
Jun 12th 2008, 11:51 PM
Collectively through Dan we have 7 heads 10 horns :hmm:

a lion
a bear
a leopard (with 4 heads)
an unknown with 10 horns



Lion Head 1 seal 1
Bear Head 2 seal 2
Leopard Head 3,4,5,6 seal 3
Beast Head 7 seal 4

The 5 which have fallen in chapter 17 will be the Heads 1,2,3,4,5. The one which is will be head 6. The one which is yet to be will be 7 which will become the eighth when he is indwelled by Satan himself for a short space (30 days). The lion is the head wounded unto death but lives again as the little horn, this eighth king and will be a lamb. Lion - lamb.

(Note there is a 7 parrallel in God's kingdom with the 7 angels and 7 churches. Hence the 7 heads represent the 7 ie churches in Satan's kingdom? As we see 5 heads have fallen do we see this also in God's kingdom as perhaps 5 churches have fallen why we see only two candlestickes mentioned.....)

The beast has 10 horns which represent the house of Israel. The little horn will come out of this beast and he has two horns himself (second beast of Rev) These two horns represent The house of Judah were this beast is claiming origin. Note these 12 tribes 144,000 at first align with the beast but then repent and fulfill God's will and turn against the beast.


Mark

:) Mark, I think you are maybe trying to see all the layers as one ..it doesn't work that way

this is Daniel 7 - ONLY 5 Kingdoms/World class empires will exist on this earth, and the 5th is God's Kingdom.
Take a breather, forget AC for now, Come to terms with this and the image created by the 4 beasts/Kigndoms

IamBill
Jun 13th 2008, 12:16 AM
We have to keep in mind that Daniel was written 100's of years before Rev was.

Yes they are keyed - but linear, Not "to and Fro"

Note that the forth beast has no likeness, and that the ten horns are IN it's head(not ON it) But that they do come out of it

...I imagine making it appear to have been mortally wounded :rolleyes:

Merton
Jun 13th 2008, 01:43 AM
babylon was babylon, it was also rome, it was also england, its also america, it was also .......

she is EVERY city- she sits over them all. look how the merchants trade with her, look at the towers they build in every city increasing thier goods but turning away from god. she is the WHORE we fornicate with when our minds want earthly goods, she is in our houses right now, we have wondered after her and been made drunk with her goods.

she sittith over MANY waters not just one, not just a couple, not just a city you can point to on a map and say see " this city had many rivers and lakes so it is clearly babylon"

god will show you the judgement of the whore, he will show you what he thinks of her goods, john wondered at her with great admiration as we do today but watch what god does to her and all her earthly goods.

so be not drunk on her goods --see her clearly and know what she sells and know why the merchants cry.
they will weep and cry for all the precious material goods will be NOTHING and everything they have been trying to amass will be destroyed.

babylon is all cities, towns and nations.
shes the GREAT whore

I pretty much agree but not altogether perfectly.

Babylon wil not fully succeed to rule the whole earth. That promise is given to another.

Jer 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Isa 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

The wrath of God is poured out on the Kingdom of the Beast and not upon the whole world, but yes upon its Babylonic cities and its worshippers. Rev.16. which incorporates most of the rulers of Babylonic nations and cities but NOT all ----which can be because of the last witness of the true church (Rev.14 three angels messages)

Psa 72:8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
Psa 72:9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.
Psa 72:10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
Psa 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

BTW.

It is the new man in Christ, the new creation who submits his/her will to Christ. The old man IS dead.

Abraham as a believer had to submit his will to God AFTER he believed.

Jesus exampled this for us.(to the end)

Paul in Romans ch's 6, 7, and 8 spoke of it.

In Phillipians, God appeals to the believer, the already "saved" person--

Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Phi 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Phi 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example.
Phi 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Phi 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)



Merton.

fewarechosen
Jun 13th 2008, 02:17 AM
merton i agree babylon wont get the whole earth becuase --it wont ever get the elect

thank god for that

theleast
Jun 13th 2008, 02:25 AM
Don't forget Daniel was also told in his visions that not all the details were open to him because they were sealed up until the time of the end. Even John was not allowed to record the 7 thunders.

God is awesome.

ross3421
Jun 13th 2008, 02:38 AM
:) Mark, I think you are maybe trying to see all the layers as one ..it doesn't work that way


I see a counterfeit kingdom posed by Satan. Thus there are two sets of 4 beasts and 7 kings. The 10 horns (12 in total) are the remanat of Israel which first aligns with Satan then ultimately with God. Each kingdom has a city which have the same characteristics and a king of kings which will rule.

I am not sure what you mean by "layers"?




this is Daniel 7 - ONLY 5 Kingdoms/World class empires will exist on this earth, and the 5th is God's Kingdom.


Where do you get 5 kingdoms? Dan 7 only speaks of four?



Take a breather, forget AC for now, Come to terms with this and the image created by the 4 beasts/Kigndoms
[/QUOTE]

What do I need to come to terms with? What do you know about the image????


Mark

ross3421
Jun 13th 2008, 02:41 AM
Don't forget Daniel was also told in his visions that not all the details were open to him because they were sealed up until the time of the end. Even John was not allowed to record the 7 thunders.

God is awesome.

Because the 7 thunders were going to start naming those found in the book which of course God could not allow. This is why the book was sealed from us.


Mark

IamBill
Jun 13th 2008, 03:22 AM
I see a counterfeit kingdom posed by Satan. Thus there are two sets of 4 beasts and 7 kings. The 10 horns (12 in total) are the remanat of Israel which first aligns with Satan then ultimately with God. Each kingdom has a city which have the same characteristics and a king of kings which will rule.

Well ...you have fun with that then. unless you can show it with scripture.


I am not sure what you mean by "layers"?
That's fine then


Where do you get 5 kingdoms? Dan 7 only speaks of four?
I guess you "overlooked" the post twice then


What do I need to come to terms with? What do you know about the image????
Mark
Only what is written !

IamBill
Jun 13th 2008, 03:25 AM
Don't forget Daniel was also told in his visions that not all the details were open to him because they were sealed up until the time of the end. Even John was not allowed to record the 7 thunders.

God is awesome.


Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

:)

Merton
Jun 13th 2008, 08:47 AM
Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

:)


Also--

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7Behold,Icomequickly: blessed is he that keepeth the saying of the prophecy of this book.
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thoudoit not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

I once complained to the Lord about why God made Isaiah so hard to understand (in other words He should have made it simpler)

I did not expect an answer but He must have been listening and closer than I thought for He quickly said that I was the thickhead and not Him.

Still it was nice to hear Him so clearly as has been the case in the past when rebuked by Him.







If you guys notice that I am not around, then it is because I can get so little fellowship around here, or anywhere else for that matter.

Merton.

IamBill
Jun 13th 2008, 02:41 PM
Also--

If you guys notice that I am not around, then it is because I can get so little fellowship around here, or anywhere else for that matter.

Merton.

this place is my only fellowship too Merton, I appreciate your being here.

"come, let us reason together" -constructive - awesome :)

jewel4Christ
Jun 13th 2008, 08:01 PM
Also--

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7Behold,Icomequickly: blessed is he that keepeth the saying of the prophecy of this book.
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thoudoit not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

I once complained to the Lord about why God made Isaiah so hard to understand (in other words He should have made it simpler)

I did not expect an answer but He must have been listening and closer than I thought for He quickly said that I was the thickhead and not Him.

Still it was nice to hear Him so clearly as has been the case in the past when rebuked by Him.







If you guys notice that I am not around, then it is because I can get so little fellowship around here, or anywhere else for that matter.

Merton.

Hi Mert......:kiss:


Please don't go.


I, for one, love your posts.


We should always remember that "fellowship" has more to do with loving one another, than it does agreeing completely with one another. I have been on some boards where they did not have a clue of that...but, this one seems different to me, for at least you are allowed to agree to disagree without feeling like you are the heretic,lol.


peaceandlove,

janet

Merton
Jun 13th 2008, 11:16 PM
Thankyou Bill and Janet for responding kindly.

I am hurting pretty bad at the moment.

In the past I could always turn to some interest or other to keep myself going but now that time seems to be past.

It is likely to be time to move on to something new, but I will have to wait for it, as my own ideas have run out and were never much good anyway.

Thanks for listening.

Merton.

jewel4Christ
Jun 14th 2008, 01:53 AM
Thankyou Bill and Janet for responding kindly.

I am hurting pretty bad at the moment.

In the past I could always turn to some interest or other to keep myself going but now that time seems to be past.

It is likely to be time to move on to something new, but I will have to wait for it, as my own ideas have run out and were never much good anyway.

Thanks for listening.

Merton.


:cry: Just take some time to rest from this.....it will help you clear your mind.


...and, check your email.....;)

peaceandlove,

janet

Merton
Jun 14th 2008, 02:57 AM
:cry: Just take some time to rest from this.....it will help you clear your mind.


...and, check your email.....;)

peaceandlove,

janet


I found something relevent to my situation but I do not have the same interpretation as they have--

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=648563944666093503

Merton.

IamBill
Jun 14th 2008, 04:02 AM
I found something relevent to my situation but I do not have the same interpretation as they have--

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=648563944666093503

Merton.

:eek: You are not so alone there Mert

((And we are seriously derailing a very good thread here ))

IamBill
Jun 14th 2008, 11:52 PM
12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.


now we are going to go into this slowly and we must rely on the holy spirit to discern for us -- for many without the spirit will not see the truth.

here are a few other scriptures to think of when pondering and praying


10And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
11And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. 12And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

--------------------------------------------


18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

------------------------------------------------------------


9And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
10Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
11And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
12And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
13And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
14And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
15And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.
16And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bow shot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept.
17And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
18Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.
19And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. 20And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.


read these and then i will go on to giving my reasoning in a little while , so we can see if we are same page.

:idea: someone just turned on the lights :lol:

I am missing a "couple" dots though :hmm:

fewarechosen
Jun 15th 2008, 12:14 AM
Iambill :)

pray on it , because im sure you will have something to add to it, but im sure inside you it will ring true.

i think it starts to add up as to why its so relevent today,
and people are starting to feel it

also remember god put it in their hearts to fullfill his will :)

isnt god amazing lol

theleast
Jun 15th 2008, 12:19 AM
As far as fellowship Merton I have found fewarechosen, Iambill, and jewel4christ to be great brothers and a sister in Christ. Welcome to the club!

To get this thread back on track though, I just had a huge piece of the puzzle revealed to me last night. If this thread keeps moving as it has I may share it soon.

Think on this though, the ten horns that are the ten kings without kingdoms as of yet, are of the seed of Ishmael. They hate the whore and war with the Lamb. So think on that and we can discuss it more. Read up on Ishmael first though.

IamBill
Jun 15th 2008, 01:46 AM
We need someone who is very 'up' on history here.

theleast
Jun 15th 2008, 02:08 AM
We need someone who is very 'up' on history here.

I have a decent understanding of history. What is your question?

IamBill
Jun 15th 2008, 02:49 AM
:)
the 12 tribes of ISRAEL ;)

do they ALL still exist ?

and/or as 12 separate tribes ?

theleast
Jun 15th 2008, 03:34 AM
At one time there were 12 seperate tribes of Israel. Here is a map that even gives an idea of the lands that each of the 12 tribes controlled, as given to them by God, and as stated in old testament scripture.

http://www.teachinghearts.org/dr0imaptribes.gif

After the return from Babylon the seperate tribes I believe still knew their heritage, but didn't control those areas of land anymore, and began to intermingle. At least up until the time of Christ so that his heritage would remain intact to fulfill the promise from scripture.

I doubt very highly however any Jews today can trace their heritage back to any one particular tribe. I've certainly never heard of one who can. However I would expect that God preserved all 12 tribes in order to fulfill his promises that a remnant would be saved.

IamBill
Jun 15th 2008, 03:37 AM
:hmm: Joseph was sold right

and there is something about 10 lost tribes
:2cents:

and I am getting sleepy

Edit : Ok thanks Phaeton, I'll look into tomorrow

theleast
Jun 15th 2008, 03:40 AM
:hmm: Joseph was sold right

and there is something about 10 lost tribes
:2cents:

and I am getting sleepy

Yes Joseph was sold by his brothers.

Interesting about the 10 lost tribes. Now you have given me something to read. LOL:bounce:

IamBill
Jun 15th 2008, 03:47 AM
and Levi scattered :lol:

I'm not necessarily thinking on "Israel" itself, more on the lines of each or groups

anyways -night -God Bless :)

ross3421
Jun 15th 2008, 04:58 PM
Yes Joseph was sold by his brothers.

Interesting about the 10 lost tribes. Now you have given me something to read. LOL:bounce:

Is it possible that these 10 lost tribes will rise up again at the time when the beast arises?

Re 13:1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Note in the previous chapter we equate the 12 stars with the tribes of Israel which are seen with the woman. Then John sees another wonder in heaven with 10 horns. Does this 10 now represent 10 of the 12 tribes which are aligned with the God of this world.

Mark

theleast
Jun 15th 2008, 05:43 PM
Is it possible that these 10 lost tribes will rise up again at the time when the beast arises?

Re 13:1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Note in the previous chapter we equate the 12 stars with the tribes of Israel which are seen with the woman. Then John sees another wonder in heaven with 10 horns. Does this 10 now represent 10 of the 12 tribes which are aligned with the God of this world.

Mark

I did read up upon the ten tribes. I don't see them as being lost. Let us reason together. Solomon the son of David was the King of the 12 tribes of Israel. Solomon became very reach and began a spiral into matters of the flesh. Consider the scripture...

14Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold,
15Beside that he had of the merchantmen, and of the traffick of the spice merchants, and of all the kings of Arabia, and of the governors of the country.
16And king Solomon made two hundred targets of beaten gold: six hundred shekels of gold went to one target.
17And he made three hundred shields of beaten gold; three pound of gold went to one shield: and the king put them in the house of the forest of Lebanon.
18Moreover the king made a great throne of ivory, and overlaid it with the best gold.
19The throne had six steps, and the top of the throne was round behind: and there were stays on either side on the place of the seat, and two lions stood beside the stays.
20And twelve lions stood there on the one side and on the other upon the six steps: there was not the like made in any kingdom.
21And all king Solomon's drinking vessels were of gold, and all the vessels of the house of the forest of Lebanon were of pure gold; none were of silver: it was nothing accounted of in the days of Solomon.
22For the king had at sea a navy of Tharshish with the navy of Hiram: once in three years came the navy of Tharshish, bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks.
23So king Solomon exceeded all the kings of the earth for riches and for wisdom.
24And all the earth sought to Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart.
25And they brought every man his present, vessels of silver, and vessels of gold, and garments, and armour, and spices, horses, and mules, a rate year by year.
26And Solomon gathered together chariots and horsemen: and he had a thousand and four hundred chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, whom he bestowed in the cities for chariots, and with the king at Jerusalem.
27And the king made silver to be in Jerusalem as stones, and cedars made he to be as the sycomore trees that are in the vale, for abundance.
28And Solomon had horses brought out of Egypt, and linen yarn: the king's merchants received the linen yarn at a price. 29And a chariot came up and went out of Egypt for six hundred shekels of silver, and an horse for an hundred and fifty: and so for all the kings of the Hittites, and for the kings of Syria, did they bring them out by their means.

1 Kings 11


1But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites:
2Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
3And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart. 4For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

11Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.
12Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son.
34Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes:
35But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes.

Now I split it up obvoiusly but all this came from 1 kings chapters 10 and 11.

Here are the points I want to make.

1. Notice that when the weight of gold that comes onto Solomon in a year reaches 666 he begins to fall into matters of the flesh.

He begins to start collecting fine things, gold and women among his favorite things but not limited to. For as the scripture says...

1 Timothy 6:10 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1 Timothy+6:10&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1 Timothy+6&version=9)
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

This relates as well to the number of the beast which is 666. The pattern we have begun to show in this thread is that the beast is not a singular antichrist but all of humanity that are antichrists. So when the beast begins to reach the pinnacle of it's greed and amass the maximum that Solomon was allowed in a year (666), THAT is the number of which we must have the wisdom to count. And here God has given us the Wisdom to consider the number of the beast.

2. The 10 tribes were not lost but taken from the hand of Solomon and given to another.

Solomon was allowed to keep two tribes, and the other ten tribes were given to another king to rule over. I have not discovered the significance of this scripture other than to say Solomon was allowed to keep his rule over those 2 in order to preserve the bloodline and the lineage of Kings for the coming of Christ. IamBill has just brought me to remembrance of this scripture recently and so I need to pray on that more.

I would love to see what input you all have to add to this, particularly the number of the beast. ;)

Praise to the Almighty that he has given me the Wisdom to count the number of the beast. May he give that same Wisdom unto whom he will so that we may reason together in preperation of my Lords coming kingdom.

fewarechosen
Jun 15th 2008, 06:02 PM
well said phaeton as you know we have the same understanding, hopefully we can hear from others who have been given the same.

it shows what happens when one is ripe with mammon and why love of money is the root of all evil.

ross3421
Jun 15th 2008, 06:57 PM
14Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold,
15Beside that he had of the merchantmen, and of the traffick of the spice merchants, and of all the kings of Arabia, and of the governors of the country.
16And king Solomon made two hundred targets of beaten gold: six hundred shekels of gold went to one target.
17And he made three hundred shields of beaten gold; three pound of gold went to one shield: and the king put them in the house of the forest of Lebanon.
18Moreover the king made a great throne of ivory, and overlaid it with the best gold.
19The throne had six steps, and the top of the throne was round behind: and there were stays on either side on the place of the seat, and two lions stood beside the stays.
20And twelve lions stood there on the one side and on the other upon the six steps: there was not the like made in any kingdom.
21And all king Solomon's drinking vessels were of gold, and all the vessels of the house of the forest of Lebanon were of pure gold; none were of silver: it was nothing accounted of in the days of Solomon.
22For the king had at sea a navy of Tharshish with the navy of Hiram: once in three years came the navy of Tharshish, bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks.
23So king Solomon exceeded all the kings of the earth for riches and for wisdom.
24And all the earth sought to Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart.
25And they brought every man his present, vessels of silver, and vessels of gold, and garments, and armour, and spices, horses, and mules, a rate year by year.
26And Solomon gathered together chariots and horsemen: and he had a thousand and four hundred chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, whom he bestowed in the cities for chariots, and with the king at Jerusalem.
27And the king made silver to be in Jerusalem as stones, and cedars made he to be as the sycomore trees that are in the vale, for abundance.
28And Solomon had horses brought out of Egypt, and linen yarn: the king's merchants received the linen yarn at a price. 29And a chariot came up and went out of Egypt for six hundred shekels of silver, and an horse for an hundred and fifty: and so for all the kings of the Hittites, and for the kings of Syria, did they bring them out by their means.

Here are the points I want to make.

1. Notice that when the weight of gold that comes onto Solomon in a year reaches 666 he begins to fall into matters of the flesh.


I think there is a conection to the 666 talents of Gold to the number of the beast. However I disagree that it has to do with the love of money , women ect....

I see the connection between the 666 and the temple. I think the reason the gift was measured at 666 because it represented the house of Solomon, the house of God. Solomon fell due to sin not the gold itself.


Mark

fewarechosen
Jun 15th 2008, 07:04 PM
money isnt the root of all evil so i agree solomon did not fall because of money. he fell because of his love of money. he let money distort his view and carry him away. the 666 is to mark the point at which he fell not to say it is the reason.

it wasnt like he reached the magic number then fell, it is symoblic of him then turning to evil

it was a shadow of things to come, and given to us so the holy spirit can discern for us the meaning behind 666

jewel4Christ
Jun 15th 2008, 07:35 PM
money isnt the root of all evil so i agree solomon did not fall because of money. he fell because of his love of money. he let money distort his view and carry him away. the 666 is to mark the point at which he fell not to say it is the reason.

it wasnt like he reached the magic number then fell, it is symoblic of him then turning to evil

it was a shadow of things to come, and given to us so the holy spirit can discern for us the meaning behind 666

Yes, I agree. It is symbolic of the old "man"...and, what "man" stands for in the carnal, or fleshly state. It is "lust" that is the root of sin.

..and, this is what we must come out of in the spiritual sense.


Eph 4 Living as Children of Light

17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.


20You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.



This verse shows what is the "idolatry" that the whore has:

Col 3: 5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

So, we see it is greed, that is at the root of loving money. Money of itself is not evil.

Babylon was destined to fall from the beginning, because as satan is the god of this present evil world, his ways are sown in the hearts of men, through lust/and greed...so, we are told to "come out of her", and not to partake of her sin, which is this:

1 thess 4:5 not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God;

and, often babes in Christ are having their faith shipwrecked by the false teachers whom bring in damnable teachings that even teach men to desire things of this present evil world:

2 pet 2: 17 These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.


and, this verse makes it CLEAR what babylon is symbolic of:


1 John 2:16 For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world.

Babylon = fallen world...and, the lusts of the flesh is the same as the 666...and, that is why we must have a changed heart, a circumcised heart that is ruled by love, instead of lust....Agape love, of course....:idea:

peaceandlove,

janet

theleast
Jun 15th 2008, 09:29 PM
Yes, I agree. It is symbolic of the old "man"...and, what "man" stands for in the carnal, or fleshly state. It is "lust" that is the root of sin.

..and, this is what we must come out of in the spiritual sense.


Eph 4 Living as Children of Light

17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.


20You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.



This verse shows what is the "idolatry" that the whore has:

Col 3: 5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

So, we see it is greed, that is at the root of loving money. Money of itself is not evil.

Babylon was destined to fall from the beginning, because as satan is the god of this present evil world, his ways are sown in the hearts of men, through lust/and greed...so, we are told to "come out of her", and not to partake of her sin, which is this:

1 thess 4:5 not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God;

and, often babes in Christ are having their faith shipwrecked by the false teachers whom bring in damnable teachings that even teach men to desire things of this present evil world:

2 pet 2: 17 These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.


and, this verse makes it CLEAR what babylon is symbolic of:


1 John 2:16 For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world.

Babylon = fallen world...and, the lusts of the flesh is the same as the 666...and, that is why we must have a changed heart, a circumcised heart that is ruled by love, instead of lust....Agape love, of course....:idea:

peaceandlove,

janet


Yet another great post! :bounce:

jewel4Christ
Jun 17th 2008, 04:15 PM
"come out of her, MY PEOPLE".

Some things to consider:


Ex 3:8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

Egypt represents the fallen world in sin, in the bible.

Jesus came down to rescue us from that fallen world.

He places us in the land flowing with milk and honey, the NEW Jerusalem...which is represented by the NEW covenant in HIS BLOOD.

Ex 13:14 And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What [is] this? that thou shalt say unto him, By strength of hand the LORD brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage:

..but, just as many wanted to "look back" unto Egypt, and, what they had left, (the world), many in the church today have done the same thing. There is nothing new under the sun.

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

The world is in the church, and the church is in the world.

Rev 18 :4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Jesus is calling His people OUT of babylon, (the world), once again.

peaceandlove,

janet

scooter2
Jun 17th 2008, 04:41 PM
Is calling his people out of the present day Church system and its paganism. I keep trying to tell people what Babylon really is, and it simply isn't a nation or group of nations. Its simply put an errant religious system. Babylon means confusion and religion is full of it. Consider why there are so many differing Churches today, and none of them agree on many things. There must be a dozen different doctrines etc. There is only one doctrine and there simply can't be so many divisions as we see today, meaning its chock full of confusion/Babel/Babylon. Some of these errant religious system even believe the end came in or near 70 AD, Where they get it is beyond me as it sure isn't in the Bible. Nor can it be proven historically, heh


Definition of the word/s

Babylon: Babel, baw-bel'; confusion; Babel (i.e. Babylon), including Babylonia and the Babylonian empire: -balal, baw-lal'; a primitive root; to overflow (specifically with oil.); by implication, to mix; -balahh, baw-lah'; a primitive root; to palpitate; hence, (causatively) to terrify:— trouble. - bahal, baw-hal'; a primitive root; to tremble inwardly.

theleast
Jun 17th 2008, 04:47 PM
Is calling his people out of the present day Church system and its paganism. I keep trying to tell people what Babylon really is, and it simply isn't a nation or group of nations. Its simply put an errant religious system. Babylon means confusion and religion is full of it. Consider why there are so many differing Churches today, and none of them agree on many things. There must be a dozen different doctrines etc. There is only one doctrine and there simply can't be so many divisions as we see today, meaning its chock full of confusion/Babel/Babylon. Some of these errant religious system even believe the end came in or near 70 AD, Where they get it is beyond me as it sure isn't in the Bible. Nor can it be proven historically, heh


Definition of the word/s

Babylon: Babel, baw-bel'; confusion; Babel (i.e. Babylon), including Babylonia and the Babylonian empire: -balal, baw-lal'; a primitive root; to overflow (specifically with oil.); by implication, to mix; -balahh, baw-lah'; a primitive root; to palpitate; hence, (causatively) to terrify:— trouble. - bahal, baw-hal'; a primitive root; to tremble inwardly.

I agree with you to a degree but I see the errant religious systems as the false prophet, slightly different than Babylon, and the harlot but they are all the same thing at the end of the day.

antichrists

scooter2
Jun 17th 2008, 04:51 PM
Tower of Babel was not built for the worship and praise of God, but was dedicated to false man-made religion, with a motive of making a 'name' for the builders - Genesis 11:4. God seeing what the people were doing, confused their languages and scattered the people throughout the earth. Babel is the Hebrew equivalent of Akkadian Babilu (Greek Babylon), a cosmopolitan city typified by a confusion of languages. Babel and Babylon mean the same thing.

threebigrocks
Jun 17th 2008, 05:19 PM
"come out of her, MY PEOPLE".

Some things to consider:


Ex 3:8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

Egypt represents the fallen world in sin, in the bible.

Jesus came down to rescue us from that fallen world.

He places us in the land flowing with milk and honey, the NEW Jerusalem...which is represented by the NEW covenant in HIS BLOOD.

Ex 13:14 And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What [is] this? that thou shalt say unto him, By strength of hand the LORD brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage:

..but, just as many wanted to "look back" unto Egypt, and, what they had left, (the world), many in the church today have done the same thing. There is nothing new under the sun.

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

The world is in the church, and the church is in the world.

Rev 18 :4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Jesus is calling His people OUT of babylon, (the world), once again.

peaceandlove,

janet





Let's not forget that Christ Himself was also called out of Egypt:

Matthew 2


13Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him."

14So Joseph got up and took the Child and His mother while it was still night, and left for Egypt. 15He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: "OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON."


Numbers 24

8"God brings him out of Egypt,
He is for him like the horns of the wild ox
He will devour the nations who are his adversaries,
And will crush their bones in pieces,
And shatter them with his arrows.

Hosea 11

1When Israel was a youth I loved him,
And out of Egypt I called My son.
2The more they called them,
The more they went from them;
They kept sacrificing to the Baals
And burning incense to idols.
3Yet it is I who taught Ephraim to walk,
I took them in My arms;
But they did not know that I healed them.
4I led them with cords of a man, with bonds of love,
And I became to them as one who lifts the yoke from their jaws;
And I bent down and fed them.
5They will not return to the land of Egypt;
But Assyria--he will be their king
Because they refused to return to Me.

jewel4Christ
Jun 17th 2008, 07:50 PM
Let's not forget that Christ Himself was also called out of Egypt:

Matthew 2


Numbers 24


Hosea 11


Yes, I agree, but He was the ONLY one, born without SIN.

He still came OUT of the sinful world...which is held in bondage through sin.

So, I guess I am not seeing your point.

He was born UNDER the law, and through the law is the power of sin...but, Jesus had no sin.

Does not have anything to do with Him still coming INTO a sinful world...and, God also taking Him back out, through the resurection of the dead.


He has returned to the Father, returned to His former glory, but while He was in this present EVIL world, He was here..yet without sin.


peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 17th 2008, 07:55 PM
I agree with you to a degree but I see the errant religious systems as the false prophet, slightly different than Babylon, and the harlot but they are all the same thing at the end of the day.

antichrists

Yes, Phaeton, that is how I view it also...we gotta get our symbols right, lol.

The harlots are DAUGHTERS of Babylon, but Babylon itself has born MANY daughters....herself being the mother of harlots.

The term "daughter" of Babylon, is what represents the false religions of this world.


Do a word search on "daughter" of Babylon, for example, and you will see that Babylon/the FALLEN world was here, before the daughters/false religions were formed, or conceived through it. As the false system of this fallen world is THE harlot, she has born many daughters.....


..and, yes, all the daughters of babylon are antichrist.

Christianity is the only "religion" if you want to call it that, that has been conceived in this earth, but it is not of this world...nor was it born of babylon.

It is born through a heavenly kingdom, that does not have any roots in this present evil world.
...for satan is the god/father of this world...and, he as the father, has born many daughters/religions...that deny JESUS.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 17th 2008, 08:38 PM
The term "babylon" also refers to the "jerusalem that is in bondage with her children", or the physical Zion, throughout the word of God....and, the bible also call's the "daughters" of babylon, the same as the "daughters of jerusalem"....or likewise, the physical city of Zion.

Example:


Isa 3:16 Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing [as] they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

Isa 3:17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.

Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.



(it is babylon that is to burn, remember?)

Isa 32:9 Rise up, ye women that are at ease; hear my voice, ye careless daughters; give ear unto my speech.

Eze 13:17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

Eze 32:16 This [is] the lamentation wherewith they shall lament her: the daughters of the nations shall lament her: they shall lament for her, [even] for Egypt, and for all her multitude, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 32:18 Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, [even] her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.

Jesus calls them the same as the "daughters of jerusalem", here:


Luke 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

Ps 137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy [shall he be], that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

Isa 52:2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, [and] sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.


Jer 31:32 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.
Jer 46:11 Go up into Gilead, and take balm, O virgin, the daughter of Egypt: in vain shalt thou use many medicines; [for] thou shalt not be cured.

Jer 46:19 O thou daughter dwelling in Egypt, furnish thyself to go into captivity: for Noph shall be waste and desolate without an inhabitant.

Jer 46:24 The daughter of Egypt shall be confounded; she shall be delivered into the hand of the people of the north.


Jer 49:4 Wherefore gloriest thou in the valleys, thy flowing valley, O backsliding daughter? that trusted in her treasures, [saying], Who shall come unto me?


Jer 50:42 They shall hold the bow and the lance: they [are] cruel, and will not shew mercy: their voice shall roar like the sea, and they shall ride upon horses, [every one] put in array, like a man to the battle, against thee, O daughter of Babylon.

Jer 51:33 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; The daughter of Babylon [is] like a threshingfloor, [it is] time to thresh her: yet a little while, and the time of her harvest shall come.


Lam 1:6 And from the daughter of Zion all her beauty is departed: her princes are become like harts [that] find no pasture, and they are gone without strength before the pursuer.


Lam 2:13 What thing shall I take to witness for thee? what thing shall I liken to thee, O daughter of Jerusalem? what shall I equal to thee, that I may comfort thee, O virgin daughter of Zion? for thy breach [is] great like the sea: who can heal thee?


Lam 2:15 All that pass by clap [their] hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, [saying, Is] this the city that [men] call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth?


Eze 16:44 Behold, every one that useth proverbs shall use [this] proverb against thee, saying, As [is] the mother, [so is] her daughter.


I could go on, but, I think this is sufficient. The mother of harlots is the fallen world, and she has born many daughters....false religion/and, she is just like her mother....

LOST, and in need of correction, and unless she repent, she shall likewise perish.


peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 17th 2008, 08:47 PM
OOPS, I should not of left out this one, because it explains alot:

Mic 1:13 O thou inhabitant of Lachish, bind the chariot to the swift beast: she [is] the beginning of the sin to the daughter of Zion: for the transgressions of Israel were found in thee.

Notice the "beast".

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 17th 2008, 08:49 PM
Zec 2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest [with] the daughter of Babylon.

I believe this verse explains how God's people are dwelling in Babylon, until He calls us out to salvation...through the new covenant in Jesus blood.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 17th 2008, 08:52 PM
...as does this one:

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

We all are born in babylon, spiritually speaking.....until the Lord call's us out...but, many are called, and few are chosen.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 17th 2008, 08:57 PM
If we are led by faith, we must refuse to be called the daughter of pharoah, which is also symbolic of the daughter of the father of this present world...satan, for pharoah is symbolic of satan/god of this world.

As our brother Moses refused, so must we..this verse has spiritual meaning:

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

Pharaoh's daughter is the same as the daughter of babylon...(false religion).

peaceandlove,

janet

fewarechosen
Jun 17th 2008, 09:09 PM
wow-- really good stuff jewel.

alot of that i did not even realise was there lol
so thanks for taking the time. i am going to reread those and ponder for awhile, then i gotta get back into some OT.

jewel4Christ
Jun 17th 2008, 09:15 PM
wow-- really good stuff jewel.

alot of that i did not even realise was there lol
so thanks for taking the time. i am going to reread those and ponder for awhile, then i gotta get back into some OT.

:D...I was bored, lol.


Thanks....:kiss:

peaceandlove,

janet

theleast
Jun 17th 2008, 09:58 PM
Wow great stuff. There is so much old testament prophecy I can't ever seem to get through it all. :o

jewel4Christ
Jun 17th 2008, 11:25 PM
Wow great stuff. There is so much old testament prophecy I can't ever seem to get through it all. :o

Thanks Phaeton,

If I had to pick just one chapter from the new covenant that would put all the old covenant prophecies into a right perspective, it would be this chapter:

2 Pet 1





1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:1&t=web&sr=1&l=en) Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:




2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:2&t=web&sr=1&l=en) Grace to you and peace be multiplied in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,




3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:3&t=web&sr=1&l=en) seeing that his divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and virtue;




4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:4&t=web&sr=1&l=en) whereby he has granted to us his precious and exceedingly great promises; that through these you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust.








5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:5&t=web&sr=1&l=en) Yes, and for this very cause adding on your part all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence; and in moral excellence, knowledge;




6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:6&t=web&sr=1&l=en) and in knowledge, self-control; and in self-control patience; and in patience godliness;




7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:7&t=web&sr=1&l=en) and in godliness brotherly affection; and in brotherly affection, love.




8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:8&t=web&sr=1&l=en) For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to be not idle nor unfruitful to the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.




9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:9&t=web&sr=1&l=en) For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins.




(This is the unpardonable sin, to forget where your sanctification came from..just as Israel after the flesh forgot their resting place, and sought to be righteouss by the law, so has false prophets today, led many astray to also forget their resting place, and to seek a different gospel, based on the flesh. It caused those in Israel to be cut off, due to unbelief of the way to salvation, that is, and it is causing many today to be cut off, and be found in unbelief. That is why there are so many warnings from Paul and the other apostles about false gospels....that come in the form of "godliness", but denying the power thereof, for when we deny the way to salvation is through Jesus alone, and His shed blood, we have denied HIS power to save...and, just as we perceive in our heart to place the power in "us", through our flesh, we have given the enemy a foothold to blaspheme Christ...and, I have been there done that, but, by the grace of God, He handed me over to satan for the destruction of MY FLESH, which led to my complete surrender to HIS WILL. He is an AWESOME GOD.)









10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:10&t=web&sr=1&l=en) Therefore, brothers, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble.




11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:11&t=web&sr=1&l=en) For thus will be richly supplied to you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.








12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:12&t=web&sr=1&l=en) Therefore I will not be negligent to remind you of these things, though you know them, and are established in the present truth.




13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:13&t=web&sr=1&l=en) I think it right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you;


14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:14&t=web&sr=1&l=en) knowing that the putting off of my tent comes swiftly, even as our Lord, Jesus Christ, made clear to me.


15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:15&t=web&sr=1&l=en) Yes, I will make every effort that you may always be able to remember these things even after my departure.





16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:16&t=web&sr=1&l=en) For we did not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord, Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.




17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:17&t=web&sr=1&l=en) For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."




18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:18&t=web&sr=1&l=en) This voice we heard come out of heaven, when we were with him in the holy mountain.





19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:19&t=web&sr=1&l=en) We have the more sure word of prophecy; whereunto you do well that you take heed, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns, and the day star arises in your hearts:



20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:20&t=web&sr=1&l=en) knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation. 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:21&t=web&sr=1&l=en) For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke, being moved by the Holy Spirit.




peaceandlove,


janet

fewarechosen
Jun 18th 2008, 12:01 AM
THANKS GOD

because janet your post sliced through my confusion like a knife, and just put those puzzle pieces in there place.:idea:

thanks for taking the time to post in this forum :hug:

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 12:06 AM
THANKS GOD

because janet your post sliced through my confusion like a knife, and just put those puzzle pieces in there place.:idea:

thanks for taking the time to post in this forum :hug:

Well...
:hug: back atcha....I am glad I have come to this forum, I have found many like minded people here.

..and, even when we are far apart on some of the issues, I don't see the spirit of bitterness, like I have on so many other boards.

We all see through a glass a bit darkly, but, I am thankful that it is becoming clearer as days go by.

peaceandlove,

janet

markedward
Jun 18th 2008, 12:57 AM
To the original post:


Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.


At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.


A second angel followed and said, "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries."


They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.


The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.


This title was written on her forehead: Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of Prostitutes and of the Abominations of the Earth.


The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.


Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: " 'Woe! Woe, O great city, O Babylon, city of power! In one hour your doom has come!'

Throughout the Revelation, John calls Babylon "the great city." John only speaks of one "great city" in his book. John gives us the specific identification of "the great city" in chapter 11, where he says it is the city "where also their Lord was crucified."

Babylon the Great, "the great city," is Jerusalem.

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 01:03 AM
Do you think Christ is being persecuted today?

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 01:15 AM
""Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.""

Was Jerusalem also Sodom and Egypt ?

markedward
Jun 18th 2008, 01:34 AM
""Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.""

Was Jerusalem also Sodom and Egypt ?Can a city be a prostitute, or is it figuratively called a prostitute because of its sinful tendencies? Is Satan literally a dragon, or is he figuratively called a dragon because of his destructive nature? Are the two witnesses literally lampstands, or are they figuratively called lampstands because they are "lights in the dark"? "The great city," Jerusalem, is not literally Sodom and Egypt, it is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt (how can a singular city be both the city Sodom in the Levant, and the nation Egypt in northern Africa?).


And among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: They commit adultery and live a lie. They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness. They are all like Sodom to me; the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah.Jeremiah says that the people of Jerusalem are "like Sodom" and "like Gomorrah."


The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
...............
Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom; listen to the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah!Isaiah calls the kings of Judah and Jerusalem "rulers of Sodom."

Two OT prophets "figuratively" called Jerusalem Sodom. The point is that "the great city" "where also their Lord was crucified," that is Jerusalem, is like Sodom and Egypt, in regards to its sinfulness. The very fact that John directly says it is figuratively called "Sodom and Egypt" shows that it isn't literally Sodom or Egypt. The identification of "the great city" with Sodom and Egypt figuratively is in regards to its sinfulness and not its literal location, but the identification that "the great city" where the two witnesses are killed is "also where their [the two witnesses'] Lord was crucified" makes it undeniable that Jerusalem is in sight here.

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 01:37 AM
:)
I know markedward, and that is also why babylon is not restricted to a single city

If you noticed in Rev 17:3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness: and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet-colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

No Crowns mentioned as in Rev. 13

markedward
Jun 18th 2008, 01:40 AM
:)
I know markedward, and that is why babylon is not restricted to a single cityWere there multiple cities "where their Lord also was crucified"? Or was there just one, Jerusalem? Christ wasn't crucified in Rome or New York or Calcutta. He was crucified, singularly, in the city of Jerusalem. That John goes out of his way to directly point this out shows he was speaking of a singular city, not multiple cities.

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 01:41 AM
Were there multiple cities "where their Lord also was crucified"? Or was there just one, Jerusalem? Christ wasn't crucified in Rome or New York or Calcutta. He was crucified, singularly, in the city of Jerusalem. That John goes out of his way to directly point this out shows he was speaking of a singular city, not multiple cities.

markedward

is Christ being persecuted today?

markedward
Jun 18th 2008, 01:48 AM
markedward

is Christ being persecuted today?What does this have to do with identifying Babylon?

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 01:48 AM
Were there multiple cities "where their Lord also was crucified"? Or was there just one, Jerusalem? Christ wasn't crucified in Rome or New York or Calcutta. He was crucified, singularly, in the city of Jerusalem. That John goes out of his way to directly point this out shows he was speaking of a singular city, not multiple cities.

You really think that if he was going "out of his way" to point at Jerusalem he would have called it Mystery Babylon ?

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 01:50 AM
Also, the "great city" in johns time was Rome No?

fewarechosen
Jun 18th 2008, 01:53 AM
You really think that if he was going "out of his way" to point at Jerusalem he would have called it Mystery Babylon ?

i completely agree -- he would have just said jerusalem
not even mentioning spiritualy egypt and so on.

but we are not all of the same understanding

also if jerusalem is the "earthly" city
then it must rule over all cities in a "earthly" way, which it clearly doesnt.

earthyl jerusalem doesnt sit over all nations and tongues, it hardly sits over itself

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 01:54 AM
What does this have to do with identifying Babylon?

Answer the question and I'll show you.

markedward
Jun 18th 2008, 02:06 AM
You really think that if he was going "out of his way" to point at Jerusalem he would have called it Mystery Babylon ?"Babylon the Great" is directly identified with "the great city."

"Babylon" is drunk with the blood of the prophets and saints.

"Babylon" is called a "prostitute" and depicted as apostate.

"The great city" is figuratively identified with "Sodom and Egypt."

"The great city" is directly identified as "where their Lord was also crucified."

Jerusalem is where Christ was crucified.

Jerusalem is figuratively called Sodom in the OT.

Jerusalem is repeatedly depicted as a prostitute in the OT and is repeatedly depicted as apostate.

Jerusalem is directly to blame for the blood of the prophets according to Jesus.


Also, the "great city" in johns time was Rome No?Matthew 23: Jesus places the blame of the death of the prophets and other followers of God on His contemporary Jews in Jerusalem, claiming that their "house" is left "desolate." Matthew 24: Jesus says that the "tribes of the earth" (a Biblical phrase that almost always refers to the Jews, not the entire world) would mourn the Coming. Revelation 1: John starts off the book with this same statement, that the "tribes of the earth" (the Jews) including "those who pierced Him" (i.e., Jesus' contemporaries), setting this the theme of the book as the judgment upon the Jews who rejected Christ. Revelation 11: John directly says "the great city" (the only city in view throughout the prophecies) is where Christ was crucified. Revelation 17: Babylon the Great is directly called "the great city." Revelation 18: Babylon, the city, is lamented over for its destruction, ideally fulfilling Matthew 23 and 24's statements (above). The whole nature of the Revelation, its link to Jesus' prophecies against first-century Jerusalem, and the very fact that "the great city" is directly identified with Jerusalem (where Christ was crucified) makes it obvious it is in sight here.

I do believe Rome is also in the Revelation: the beast's seven heads are called "seven hills" and also the "seven kings" that rule from those hills. Considering that John lived in the Roman Empire, and Rome was known far and wide as "the city of the seven hills," it's almost inconceivable to think John was referring to anything other than the city of Rome when he referred to the "seven hills" where the "seven kings" ruled from. But most importantly, the angel does not say that the "seven kings" rule from Babylon, only the "seven hills."

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 02:09 AM
markedward why can't you answer the question?

Is Christ persecuted today?

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 02:14 AM
Why didn't John just say "Jerusalem is sitting upon the scarlet-colored beast" Then ?
He didn't hesitate to say "where also their Lord was crucified"

fewarechosen
Jun 18th 2008, 02:14 AM
"Babylon the Great" is directly identified with "the great city."

"Babylon" is drunk with the blood of the prophets and saints.

"Babylon" is called a "prostitute" and depicted as apostate.

"The great city" is figuratively identified with "Sodom and Egypt."

"The great city" is directly identified as "where their Lord was also crucified."

Jerusalem is where Christ was crucified.

Jerusalem is figuratively called Sodom in the OT.

Jerusalem is repeatedly depicted as a prostitute in the OT and is repeatedly depicted as apostate.

Jerusalem is directly to blame for the blood of the prophets according to Jesus.



but do you really think god would try to make this all seem so mysterious when he could have just said jerusalem. its like gods great mystery is solved by substituting the word babylon with jerusalem

it sounds like he just used babylon instead of jerusalem for kicks

peace mark , may we all continue to grow in knowledge of the lord

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 02:29 AM
Also, there are at least two dozen OT verses that show Babylon and Jerusalem to be very distinctively Two different "Physical cities"

I have never read one, OT or NT that distinctively names them as one and the same Physical cities.
Not saying there isn't - I've just never read it If it's there

Merton
Jun 18th 2008, 02:33 AM
Hi all,

Enjoying the thread.

In my studies of "the great city" of the book of Revelation, I never found that the term singled out present Jerusalem of stone to be the sole holder of the title.

Historically, "the great city" was Ninevah the capitol of Assyria, conquored by Babylon which also conquored all of the lands of the middle east.

Jonah was sent to Ninevah which account types the Gospel sent to the nations by the early church through which the destruction of the nations was given a reprieve until the end of this age (Rev.7:1-3) because they had repented and continued to repent through the centures but who in the end cast off all restraints of the Gospel as Psalm ch 2 shows to occur.

Therefore the description "Babylon is fallen is fallen" refers to this great falling away (2 Thes ch 2) of the endtimes, into which also the churches go, partly or fully I know not of the churches blame.

Christ was not crucified in Jerusalem of old (Heb.13) and it is most likely that the witnesses of Rev.11 are many persons and not two, who as the witnesses of the body of Christ are killed throughout the cities of Babylon which have turned from God to the worship of their King as their God and other matters forbidden by God (Romans ch 1)

This is typed in scripture by King Neb who was to caretake the saints from the fall of the first Kingdom of Zion until the establishment of the greater and uncorruptable Kingdom of Zion,(Dan.2:38) with the first Kingdom of Babylon falling to the Medes (as a foretype of the 6th trumpet) in the time of Nebs grandson (Dan ch 5.)

That the Kingdom of Babylon is of the gospel lands mainly now extending its fallen influence into all nations and is the Beast of the endtimes is proven to us by Daniel ch 4.

It is this Beast who goes forth to all nations to gather them to the battle of Armageddon after the first 5 vials of wrath and after all believers are removed from Babylons territories (Rev.18:4) which is mainly the cities thereof---

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, everystone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to naught. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What cityis like unto this great city!
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft hebe, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.


One of the great deceptions of the endtimes is the rendering of chapter 18 as referring to the RCC or some other religion alone, which gives them cover to worship Babylon themselves.

and the other deception is to teach that Islam is the Beast. Islam was never not fallen that it should be described as "fallen fallen."

Merton.

markedward
Jun 18th 2008, 02:36 AM
Is Christ persecuted today?Yes.


Why didn't John just say "Jerusalem is sitting upon the scarlet-colored beast" Then ?Because he saw a vision of a prostitute, with the words "Babylon the Great" written on her riding on the beast, not a vision of a city riding on the beast.

But, again, I maintain that John makes it very clear who "Babylon the Great" is when he says she is "the great city," which John outright says is "where their Lord also was crucified."

Jerusalem = Where the Lord was crucified = "The great city" = Babylon the Great

Simplifying the "equation" : Jerusalem = Babylon the Great


Also, there are at least two dozen OT verses that show Babylon and Jerusalem to be very distinctively Two different "Physical cities"

I have never read one, OT or NT that distinctively names them as one and the same Physical cities.
Not saying there isn't - I've just never read it If it's thereLikewise, the OT and NT never say Jerusalem is the same physical place as Sodom or Egypt. Again, this is why John says "the great city" is figuratively called "Sodom and Egypt." Likewise, it's entirely possible that Jerusalem is figuratively called "Babylon the Great."


Christ was not crucified in Jerusalem of old (Heb.13)Hebrew 13:12; "Jesus also suffered outside the city gate." Jesus wasn't crucified in the city, but if anyone asks "Where was Jesus crucified?" the closest way to answer is "Jerusalem, outside the city gate." Jesus was crucified at Jerusalem.

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 02:39 AM
Yes.



Then you have to concede that he is being persecuted in spirit, not in body. The spiritual persecution of christ can take place anywhere among the multitudes of people. Thus is Babylon, and the harlot, and the false prophet, spread amongst the sea of multitudes and nations and tongues.

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 02:56 AM
Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou wonder? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman........

18 And the woman whom thou sawest is the great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Tell us, when was Jerusalem was Ever capable of ruling over the KINGS of THE EARTH Past or present ? :hmm:
Or Ever directly referred to as Babylon ? They ARE directly referred to as Not the same.

I am guessing you believe Rev. is Past tense ?

markedward
Jun 18th 2008, 03:04 AM
Then you have to concede that he is being persecuted in spirit, not in body. The spiritual persecution of christ can take place anywhere among the multitudes of people. Thus is Babylon, and the harlot, and the false prophet, spread amongst the sea of multitudes and nations and tongues.What am I conceding to?

The Revelation depicts a physical ("in body") persecution of the church (and thus, Christ, vicariously). They are put to the sword, taken captive, and killed. Physical persecution is what the Revelation prophesies, and it says that the concentrated persecutor of the followers of Christ is Babylon "the great city" "where [the] Lord was crucified," that is, Jerusalem - just as Jesus said in Matthew 23.

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 03:12 AM
Likewise, the OT and NT never say Jerusalem is the same physical place as Sodom or Egypt. Again, this is why John says "the great city" is figuratively called "Sodom and Egypt." Likewise, it's entirely possible that Jerusalem is figuratively called "Babylon the Great."



No Not likewise there are many verses that state they Are Not -NONE that directly state they are.

Using the very same Logic - And likewise Babylon is not limited to "A City"

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 03:28 AM
2ki 24:10 At that time the servants of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up to Jerusalem, and the city was besieged.

2ki 24:15 And he carried away Jehoiachin to Babylon; and the king`s mother, and the king`s wives, and his officers, and the chief men of the land, carried he into captivity from Jerusalem to Babylon.

2ki 24:20 For through the anger of Jehovah did it come to pass in Jerusalem and Judah, until he had cast them out from his presence. And Zedekiah rebelled against the king of Babylon.

2ki 25:1 And it came to pass in the ninth year of his reign, in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, that Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came, he and all his army, against Jerusalem, and encamped against it; and they built forts against it round about.

2ki 25:8 Now in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, which was the nineteenth year of king Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem.

Ezr 1:11 All the vessels of gold and of silver were five thousand and four hundred. All these did Sheshbazzar bring up, when they of the captivity were brought up from Babylon unto Jerusalem.

Ezr 2:1 Now these are the children of the province, that went up out of the captivity of those that had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and that returned unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city

Ezr 5:14 And the gold and silver vessels also of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took out of the temple that was in Jerusalem, and brought into the temple of Babylon, those did Cyrus the king take out of the temple of Babylon, and they were delivered unto one whose name was Sheshbazzar, whom he had made governor

Ezr 6:5 And also let the gold and silver vessels of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took forth out of the temple which is at Jerusalem, and brought unto Babylon, be restored, and brought again unto the temple which is at Jerusalem, every one to its place; and thou shalt put them in the house of God.

Ezr 7:9 For upon the first [day] of the first month began he to go up from Babylon; and on the first [day] of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem

There are about 20 more ..IS there ONE stating the opposite ?

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 03:30 AM
..and, ALL whom live in Christ shall be persecuted. Did Jesus mean it would ONLY entail one physical city?


Also....

Quote:
Why didn't John just say "Jerusalem is sitting upon the scarlet-colored beast" Then ?

Because he saw a vision of a prostitute, with the words "Babylon the Great" written on her riding on the beast, not a vision of a city riding on the beast.

But, again, I maintain that John makes it very clear who "Babylon the Great" is when he says she is "the great city," which John outright says is "where their Lord also was crucified."

Jerusalem = Where the Lord was crucified = "The great city" = Babylon the Great

Simplifying the "equation" : Jerusalem = Babylon the Great..and, as far as I know, we all agree that "jerusalem" as in the physical city represents "babylon".


I think where the confusion is coming in is that it does NOT mean that it ONLY includes one physical city.

The bible paints a whole different picture than that..especially here, where it INCLUDES all those whom are of the bondwoman as the jerusalem that now is...(physical), and all those whom are of the freewoman, as the jerusalem that is free...(spiritual)

So, to say that babylon does NOT include all the UNSAVED, instead of just one singular city makes NO sense, in context of the word of God.


Gal 4

1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:1&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;


2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:2&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.


3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:3&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements F6 of the world:




(This is talking about how we were all in bondage, under the law)

4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:4&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,


5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:5&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:6&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.



7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:7&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.





8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:8&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.


9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:9&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again F7 to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?



(this is speaking of how many return to the weak and beggarly elements of the old covenant, which brings about nothing more than bondage, Israel did this, too, and the church is going the same route...) (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:10&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en)

10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:10&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:11&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.





12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:12&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.


13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:13&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.


14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:14&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.


15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:15&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Where F8 is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.


16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:16&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?





17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:17&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, F9 that ye might affect them.


18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:18&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.





19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:19&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:20&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.





21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:21&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?


22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:22&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.


23 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:23&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.




24 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:24&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; F10 the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar



(TWO covenants. One unto bondage, which is signified as the "jerusalem that NOW is", as we will see in just a minute.)




25 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:25&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.



26 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:26&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.



27 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:27&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.






(the desolate represents ALL whom have not COME to Christ, and it does not matter what physical city they live in.


but, God uses the term "jerusalem that now is" as an ALLEGORY to represent ALL mankind, from all nations, tongues and peoples.)






28 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:28&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.




29 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:29&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.



(this is why Phaeton asked you if Jesus is YET being persecuted, for all whom are HIS are, even now. (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:30&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en)
...and, by those whom are still walking in the flesh, or in other words ruled by the flesh, because we all still fight it daily...but, there is a difference between being ruled but it, and just being tempted by it. Those whom are ruled by it, have never received the holy spirit.) (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:30&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en)

30 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:30&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.



31 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:31&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


(which INCLUDES all that Jerusalem of the physical city represents, ..it is an allegory...and, the very word of God even says it is an "allegory" to include all those YET in bondage to sin)


peaceandlove,


janet

fewarechosen
Jun 18th 2008, 04:10 AM
good stuff bill and janet -- this thread keeps my understanding well watered.

we need to let go of these earthly things and our earthly mind --and submit --as is often pointed out by some in this thread :)

through these threads i am reminded of how often my submission is lacking, and how good it feels to submit instead of trying to do things for myself. we are so used to being in the flesh it can be a hard travail to let go.

our minds want to cling to earthly things, being afraid and proud and lustfull. the beast is continually led to lust the whore by many false prophets today. it is easy for us to trust our minds and our eyes but hard to trust in god even when his yoke is light.

i do pray for those who read this thread that it is of use in enriching your understanding. i have much to learn as was even reminded me today.
when i started this thread i didnt even fully understand what i was trying to say, as im sure i still dont, but i find because of god working through my bretheren that my understanding becomes clearer and i see how we all fit together as one. so even if you disagree i pray you do keep an open mind to this topic and the points often brought up in it -- not so i can say --hey look im right. but so we can be of the same mind.

we are all believers on the same path, with different amounts and peices of the same puzzle - but we are all one, all that you have is mine and all that i have is yours. i think i type this to remind me of this even more than anyone who reads this. but babylon is the city we must all come out from , and i pray gods will be done and that i am not against it.

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 04:34 AM
good stuff bill and janet -- this thread keeps my understanding well watered.

we need to let go of these earthly things and our earthly mind --and submit --as is often pointed out by some in this thread :)

through these threads i am often reminded of how often my submission is lacking, and how good it feels to submit instead of trying to do things for myself. we are so used to being in the flesh it can be a hard travail to let go.

our minds want to cling to earthly things, being afraid and proud and lustfull. the beast is continually led to lust the whore by many false prophets today. it is easy for us to trust our minds and our eyes but hard to trust in god even when his yoke is light.

i do pray for those who read this thread that it is of use in enriching your understanding. i have much to learn as was even reminded me today. when i started this thread i didnt even fully understand what i was trying to say, as im sure i still dont, but i find because of god working through my bretheren that my understanding becomes clearer and i see how we all fit together as one, so even if you disagree i pray you do keep an open mind to this topic and the points often brought up in it -- not so i can say --hey look im right. but so we can be of the same mind.

we are all believers on the same path, with different amounts and peices of the same puzzle - but we are all one, all that you have is mine and all that i have is yours. i think i type this to remind me of this even more than anyone who reads this. but babylon is the city we must all come out from , and i pray gods will be done and that i am not against it.

AGREED!


peaceandlove,

janet

DurbanDude
Jun 18th 2008, 11:30 AM
I do agree with the idea that Babylon represents the unsaved and the incorrect doctrines of the world , the wordly system.

But I also believe it represents the city that has been co-ordinating this evil for over two thousabd years.

Revelation 17:18 was written in the first century :

"the woman you saw is the city that rules over the kings of the earth"

All who read this at that time and all who read this today should be able to define this city , it is Rome. Jerusalem was also a whore city , but it is only Rome who was and is ruling over the cities of earth.

There are many on this site who have gone into great detail showing how all aspects of this woman/prostitute/city of revelation fit ancient Rome and the current RCI. Both were filled with evil , persecuted the Jews and the Christians , both wore purple and scarlet robes and ruled cities and even ruled over countries and regions. Both took tribute as empires even though they were just a city. Both have evil titles , golden cups and jewelled crowns. I could go on and on. Yes the vatican is co-ordinating this eveil on earth and the bible has defined this city as the city that was ruling over kings at the time revelation was written. Know your enemy , it is a spiritual enemy but has a physical capital.

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 03:02 PM
I do agree with the idea that Babylon represents the unsaved and the incorrect doctrines of the world , the wordly system.

But I also believe it represents the city that has been co-ordinating this evil for over two thousabd years.

Revelation 17:18 was written in the first century :

"the woman you saw is the city that rules over the kings of the earth"

All who read this at that time and all who read this today should be able to define this city , it is Rome. Jerusalem was also a whore city , but it is only Rome who was and is ruling over the cities of earth.

There are many on this site who have gone into great detail showing how all aspects of this woman/prostitute/city of revelation fit ancient Rome and the current RCI. Both were filled with evil , persecuted the Jews and the Christians , both wore purple and scarlet robes and ruled cities and even ruled over countries and regions. Both took tribute as empires even though they were just a city. Both have evil titles , golden cups and jewelled crowns. I could go on and on. Yes the vatican is co-ordinating this eveil on earth and the bible has defined this city as the city that was ruling over kings at the time revelation was written. Know your enemy , it is a spiritual enemy but has a physical capital.


My opinion?

Singling out one denomination, as THE problem is exactly what the enemy wants us to think.

The bible speaks of the leavening of the pharasee's, and while it is true that within the confounds of the RCC, there is leavening of false doctrine, it has also spread through all denominations, and a little leaven spoils the whole lump.

The world has made "religion" the way to salvation, and many denominations appear as the "the way" according to them..and, this is what is at the heart of the leavening. One man says, "follow me, and I am of Paul", another says, "follow me, I am of Apollos"....when the truth of the matter is that it is Jesus we are to follow, individually, and that no more is the case in most churches.

Are we taught of men, or Christ?

The whole reason the bible warned us about following the teachings of men has alot to do with "babylon".

Babylon is a mindset that denies the power of God/Jesus.

It is in every denomination in one form or another.

Denominations do not save...Jesus does.


I am not saying one should not attend a denomination, I am saying, do not begin to think that it carries one ounce of weight with God. He does not dwell in houses made by the hands of men.

peaceandlove,

janet

SoldierOfChrist
Jun 18th 2008, 03:30 PM
I do agree with the idea that Babylon represents the unsaved and the incorrect doctrines of the world , the wordly system.

But I also believe it represents the city that has been co-ordinating this evil for over two thousabd years.

Revelation 17:18 was written in the first century :

"the woman you saw is the city that rules over the kings of the earth"

All who read this at that time and all who read this today should be able to define this city , it is Rome. Jerusalem was also a whore city , but it is only Rome who was and is ruling over the cities of earth.

There are many on this site who have gone into great detail showing how all aspects of this woman/prostitute/city of revelation fit ancient Rome and the current RCI. Both were filled with evil , persecuted the Jews and the Christians , both wore purple and scarlet robes and ruled cities and even ruled over countries and regions. Both took tribute as empires even though they were just a city. Both have evil titles , golden cups and jewelled crowns. I could go on and on. Yes the vatican is co-ordinating this eveil on earth and the bible has defined this city as the city that was ruling over kings at the time revelation was written. Know your enemy , it is a spiritual enemy but has a physical capital.

I have to agree! Yes there are many false doctrines spread throughout the earth and most were derived from the the RCC many years ago. She is the Mother of these traditions and she wiped the true worshipers of God in Spirit of the map to retain her seat of power.

Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

She now has many children spread throughout the earth! When you kill a snake do you cut off its head or its tail?

I think markedward makes a very good argument in thinking the city is Jerusalem. If you read All of Matthew 23 it mentions Jerusalem... however it describes Rome very well... not Jerusalem. There is just way to much evidence to think that it could be anywhere else.

markedward makes good points that point to Jerusalem post 159 but we know that Jerusalem is also described in revelation as the great city that decends from heaven! This just isn't that simple.

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

There is also many things that Jerusalem is not when describing the whore that we cannot ignore. How is Jerusalem "full of names of blasphemy"?

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

How does Jerusalem fit any of these:

having a golden cup in her hand

THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS

kings of the earth have committed fornication

saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints

The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate

Come out of her, my people

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth

And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
There are only a few things that do not fit Rome and the RCC... yet.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Zechariah 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

When the two witnesses come forward they will war with the beast, the mother of the false religion... not Jerusalem.

1 Kings 18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

Just my opinion.

Michael

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 03:37 PM
I have to agree! Yes there are many false doctrines spread throughout the earth and most were derived from the the RCC many years ago. She is the Mother of these traditions and she wiped the true worshipers of God in Spirit of the map to retain her seat of power.

Many of us don't agree with this concept. So, guess we will just have to disagree.....:D

The mystery of iniquity was in place in the days of Paul, and it had nothing to do with the denomination of the RCC.

It was the leavening of the pharasee's.

Those whom through, exalting the flesh, of judaism, were seeking to put the church back under the law.

Putting God's people back under the law is what causes one to fall from grace, not through a denomination called the RCC.


peaceandlove,

janet

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 03:54 PM
If you Read every word you quoted there though you will probably agree "and most were derived "

I do.

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 03:56 PM
Many of us don't agree with this concept. So, guess we will just have to disagree.....:D

The mystery of iniquity was in place in the days of Paul, and it had nothing to do with the denomination of the RCC.

It was the leavening of the pharasee's.

Those whom through, exalting the flesh, of judaism, were seeking to put the church back under the law.

Putting God's people back under the law is what causes one to fall from grace, not through a denomination called the RCC.


peaceandlove,

janet

I completely agree with you jewel, the false prophet is not just the RCC but all denominations have the leaven of the pharisee.

I think the only way to get beyond the leaven of the Pharisee is through Christ's sacrifice, which enabled the Comforter to come and dwell within us. The Holy Spirit is the only means we can trust to get our interpretation and understanding. Pray to God that he sends the Comforter to you so that you can see clearly.

fewarechosen
Jun 18th 2008, 03:57 PM
he is right to say jerusalem is babylon
but to say its only jerusalem is way to limiting i feel

the false prophets were around even before the rcc, so to put any special attention on them is an exaggeration i feel and it is something there to distract us from the real essence of antichrist and babylon.

the devil would want us to focus on one in particular so our attention is diverted from the whole.

i feel when one starts to think of babylon as 1 specific physical place. then other things must be physical-- like ruling over the kings of the earth. which neither rome or rcc come close to -- neither of those rule over arabia -- but the love of money still does , that great city still rules them look at their palaces.

in my opinion america is way more the heart of babylon now by far more than rome was -- native american indians had no rule over them from rome.

but everyone knows america now -- we cram our "democracy and capitalsim" down everyones throat way more than rome ever could.

look at hollywood and music industry- people coem from around the world to get in on that, look at things like industrialization which basically perfected the spewing of mammon. usa took earthly goods to all new levels the likes of which rome couldnt imagine. we occupy whole countries for years with only a few thousand casualites, we trade with the whole world digitaly and instantly.

so just as babylon was spiritually egypt and so on its spiritually america -- its sits over all cities. because all cities and nations and tongues want nice things -- thats why shes decked in jewels and such.

jerusalem cant even rule themselves right now as a earthly country let alone sit over other nations kings.

so am i saying babylon is america ? no im saying babylon sits over america but make no mistake right now america has been its best outlet. babylon is much deeper she sits over all nations and tongues.

scooter2
Jun 18th 2008, 03:58 PM
The Roman Church system is the whore, and the offshoots of that system are the harlots, it is a religious system that has taken G-ds festivals and laws and made them fit their view. It is a system of mass confusion that people like. It does NOT match the Bible or G-ds festivals or laws. I realise this upsets the mainline Church system, but it is a Biblical fact started in the era of Constantine who became the first so called pope by his own order. Constantines Mother is also in this mix, and the things she said were Holy sites aren't. For instance the Church she made a site that was the place of Christs burial site is a known pagan worship site. The place where Moses was supposed to get the law is also an error that has been proven, etc. Sunday worship is a breaking of a commandment and so forth. This does not make the Church system happy but it is a fact.

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 04:00 PM
If you Read every word you quoted there though you will probably agree "and most were derived "

I do.

I am not sure I am understanding what you mean here.

His quote, at least to me is saying that the seat of satan is the RCC. I do not agree with that concept. Satan's seat is this fallen world.....for he is the god of it.

When we misplace issues like this, we come to wrong conclusions, in mho.

One denomination is NO worse than another in mho..they are ALL built upon the teachings of men....and, they never seem to get past their preconceived teachings....because, their creeds keep them in "lock" mode.

God's true church is not a denomination.....never was, and never will be.


He is the teacher of those whom He call's out of this world.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 04:02 PM
The Roman Church system is the whore, and the offshoots of that system are the harlots, it is a religious system that has taken G-ds festivals and laws and made them fit their view. It is a system of mass confusion that people like. It does NOT match the Bible or G-ds festivals or laws. I realise this upsets the mainline Church system, but it is a Biblical fact started in the era of Constantine who became the first so called pope by his own order. Constantines Mother is also in this mix, and the things she said were Holy sites aren't. For instance the Church she made a site that was the place of Christs burial site is a known pagan worship site. The place where Moses was supposed to get the law is also an error that has been proven, etc. Sunday worship is a breaking of a commandment and so forth. This does not make the Church system happy but it is a fact.

I do not adhere to SDA teachings..or those offshoots of it.

I was once a part of that false system, too.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 04:08 PM
I completely agree with you jewel, the false prophet is not just the RCC but all denominations have the leaven of the pharisee.

I think the only way to get beyond the leaven of the Pharisee is through Christ's sacrifice, which enabled the Comforter to come and dwell within us. The Holy Spirit is the only means we can trust to get our interpretation and understanding. Pray to God that he sends the Comforter to you so that you can see clearly.

:idea:...yep, the holy spirit is the source, not a denomination......

It appears to me that satan is very good at placing smoke screens up to take our eyes off where we really need to focus.

peaceandlove,

janet

threebigrocks
Jun 18th 2008, 04:09 PM
I am not sure I am understanding what you mean here.

His quote, at least to me is saying that the seat of satan is the RCC. I do not agree with that concept. Satan's seat is this fallen world.....for he is the god of it.

When we misplace issues like this, we come to wrong conclusions, in mho.

One denomination is NO worse than another in mho..they are ALL built upon the teachings of men....and, they never seem to get past their preconceived teachings....because, their creeds keep them in "lock" mode.

God's true church is not a denomination.....never was, and never will be.


He is the teacher of those whom He call's out of this world.

peaceandlove,

janet

Indeed!

John 17



20"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;



Romans 15


4For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
5Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, 6so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

fewarechosen
Jun 18th 2008, 04:10 PM
scooter to say the rcc is the whore is to say the whore wasnt here before the rcc.

i agree that the rcc is a false prophet and contributes to people still being held under the sway of babylon.

but dont give the rcc too much credit its just a misguided religion like many others, there is a miss guided religion for anyones tastes the devil makes sure we have a wide veriety of false prophets to choose from.

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 04:10 PM
Few-
that is why I was trying to focus on Daniel earlier - defining what is what in terms of Physical vs Spiritual. And soldier is correct also - It's a matter of where one wants to begin to show "leaven of the Pharisees"

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 04:14 PM
The Roman Church system is the whore, and the offshoots of that system are the harlots, it is a religious system that has taken G-ds festivals and laws and made them fit their view. It is a system of mass confusion that people like. It does NOT match the Bible or G-ds festivals or laws. I realise this upsets the mainline Church system, but it is a Biblical fact started in the era of Constantine who became the first so called pope by his own order. Constantines Mother is also in this mix, and the things she said were Holy sites aren't. For instance the Church she made a site that was the place of Christs burial site is a known pagan worship site. The place where Moses was supposed to get the law is also an error that has been proven, etc. Sunday worship is a breaking of a commandment and so forth. This does not make the Church system happy but it is a fact.

I don't agree with this at all. Sorry scooter2 but the system of false teaching is the false prophet. While Babylon and the whore are related to these things they are not quite the same.

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 04:15 PM
I am not sure I am understanding what you mean here.

His quote, at least to me is saying that the seat of satan is the RCC. I do not agree with that concept. Satan's seat is this fallen world.....for he is the god of it.

When we misplace issues like this, we come to wrong conclusions, in mho.

One denomination is NO worse than another in mho..they are ALL built upon the teachings of men....and, they never seem to get past their preconceived teachings....because, their creeds keep them in "lock" mode.

God's true church is not a denomination.....never was, and never will be.

He is the teacher of those whom He call's out of this world.

peaceandlove,

janet

And that was his point

the whole thing is a historical flow focusing on "near"history does not make it wrong, It just points to what concerns US TODAY

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 04:17 PM
I don't agree with this at all. Sorry scooter2 but the system of false teaching is the false prophet. While Babylon and the whore are related to these things they are not quite the same.

But they work hand in hand and drive(ride) the beast

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 04:18 PM
he is right to say jerusalem is babylon
but to say its only jerusalem is way to limiting i feel

the false prophets were around even before the rcc, so to put any special attention on them is an exaggeration i feel and it is something there to distract us from the real essence of antichrist and babylon.

the devil would want us to focus on one in particular so our attention is diverted from the whole.

i feel when one starts to think of babylon as 1 specific physical place. then other things must be physical-- like ruling over the kings of the earth. which neither rome or rcc come close to -- neither of those rule over arabia -- but the love of money still does , that great city still rules them look at their palaces.

in my opinion america is way more the heart of babylon now by far more than rome was -- native american indians had no rule over them from rome.

but everyone knows america now -- we cram our "democracy and capitalsim" down everyones throat way more than rome ever could.

look at hollywood and music industry- people coem from around the world to get in on that, look at things like industrialization which basically perfected the spewing of mammon. usa took earthly goods to all new levels the likes of which rome couldnt imagine. we occupy whole countries for years with only a few thousand casualites, we trade with the whole world digitaly and instantly.

so just as babylon was spiritually egypt and so on its spiritually america -- its sits over all cities. because all cities and nations and tongues want nice things -- thats why shes decked in jewels and such.

jerusalem cant even rule themselves right now as a earthly country let alone sit over other nations kings.

so am i saying babylon is america ? no im saying babylon sits over america but make no mistake right now america has been its best outlet. babylon is much deeper she sits over all nations and tongues.

Absolutely!

We need to focus on what is the cause of the problems in the world. Do the problems arise from a sect/denomination, or do they as the bible claims rise from a creation that has no "true heart for God"?

It is the state of fallen man that is Babylon.

Man in this state cannot please God, for without faith it is impossible, as we see written..

Man must undergo a "heart" change....through the circumcision of the holy spirit...and, without it, man is left to destruction, and babylon is the source..fallen world.

The beast is the system that man uses to try to "get around" what needs to be done.

Democracy is the final beast system, in mho...it looks good on the OUTside, but inside/ it's heart is uncircumcised, and of BABYLON.

...and, it will be shown for what it truly is, and, in my opinion, not too far off.


The RCC is just a daughter of Babylon, but, Babylon has MANY daughters, and one is no better than the other, and while we all sit here and try to point our fingers at one denomination, we are forgetting that God is just as busy at work in that organization, cleaning and circumcising hearts, as He is in where we might attend.

He is the source, we must stop denying the power of God that saves, and cleans house where most of us would not even enter.


peaceandlove,

janet

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 04:20 PM
But they work hand in hand and drive(ride) the beast

Now this I agree with. The do all work hand in hand driving the beast. There is one who also cracks the whip. His name is Satan.

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 04:23 PM
And that was his point

the whole thing is a historical flow focusing on "near"history does not make it wrong, It just points to what concerns US TODAY

What concerns me today is that christians understand that it is not a denomination that we must come out of.

peaceandlove,

janet

scooter2
Jun 18th 2008, 04:23 PM
I don't agree with this at all. Sorry scooter2 but the system of false teaching is the false prophet. While Babylon and the whore are related to these things they are not quite the same. http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1676703)

SoldierOfChrist
Jun 18th 2008, 04:25 PM
Many of us don't agree with this concept. So, guess we will just have to disagree.....:D

The mystery of iniquity was in place in the days of Paul, and it had nothing to do with the denomination of the RCC.

It was the leavening of the pharasee's.

Those whom through, exalting the flesh, of judaism, were seeking to put the church back under the law.

Putting God's people back under the law is what causes one to fall from grace, not through a denomination called the RCC.


peaceandlove,

janet

I think you are missing the deception of the RCC. The teaching of the church and how they took power.

She is the Mother of these traditions and she wiped the true worshipers of God in Spirit of the map to retain her seat of power.

And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

If you go back and look at Elijah and the GODS they whorshiped you will see the same in the RCC.

Yes this teaching is throughout the world and where did it come from? Was it not from the out work pagan teachers in the days of Christ? Yes antichrist was then as it is now.

Those that think the teachings of the RCC are no different than other denominations have not studied the religion. She is the Spiritual whore... mary worship... queen of heaven... the litany of saints... I could go on and on!

The RCC is "full of names of blasphemy"! Name another?

Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Yes the teaching is throughout the earth now! As far as I'm concerned Islam wouldn't even exist if the RCC did not wipe out true spirituality.

Does anyone here know who is WORTHY to have the Holy Spirit in that church?

There are many false religions in the world and the only true religion is Spirit filled!

Michael

scooter2
Jun 18th 2008, 04:25 PM
A government system, nor a nation. It is a religious system. If you really look at it we have scads of doctrines, all slightly different. Biblically there is only one, so if that is true, [and it is] them perhaps you can explain why we have this diversity?

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 04:25 PM
Now this I agree with. The do all work hand in hand driving the beast. There is one who also cracks the whip. His name is Satan.

Yes, as long as you are not focussing in on one denomination, as the mother of harlots.

The mother was here before her harlots were born..and, the RCC is just a daughter, not the mother, herself.

The fallen world is the MOTHER.

peaceandlove,

janet

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 04:27 PM
Absolutely!

We need to focus on what is the cause of the problems in the world. Do the problems arise from a sect/denomination, or do they as the bible claims rise from a creation that has no "true heart for God"?

It is the state of fallen man that is Babylon.

Man in this state cannot please God, for without faith it is impossible, as we see written..

Man must undergo a "heart" change....through the circumcision of the holy spirit...and, without it, man is left to destruction, and babylon is the source..fallen world.

The beast is the system that man uses to try to "get around" what needs to be done.

Democracy is the final beast system, in mho...it looks good on the OUTside, but inside/ it's heart is uncircumcised, and of BABYLON.

...and, it will be shown for what it truly is, and, in my opinion, not too far off.


The RCC is just a daughter of Babylon, but, Babylon has MANY daughters, and one is no better than the other, and while we all sit here and try to point our fingers at one denomination, we are forgetting that God is just as busy at work in that organization, cleaning and circumcising hearts, as He is in where we might attend.

He is the source, we must stop denying the power of God that saves, and cleans house where most of us would not even enter.


peaceandlove,

janet

Yes excellent point. That is why I strive always, especially in this forum NOT to condemn any one church or nation or people. We are not the ones to call for condemnation of the Jew nor the Muslim, nor the pagan, nor the aethiest, nor any. God has a plan for all his people and you don't know the mind of God. Follow Christs two commandments and in THAT way you watch for the coming of Chirst in all his glory. As Christ was the example unto us so we must be an example for others as Christ works through us. Christ did not throw any stones, he even asked God to forgive those who persecuted and condemned him. If our neighbor lifts their hand against us and causes us offense this comes as no surprise, for as Christ said "if the world hates me, how much more will it hate you?" Christ commited no sin and still they condemned him. We have sinned so the world will condemn us all the more. But if we are steadfast in our faith, we can look into the eyes of the beast and the whore, and reside in Babylon yet remain clean. For that was Christs gift to us in his sacrifice. The perfect sacrifice for OUR sins.

Peace

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 04:29 PM
What concerns me today is that christians understand that it is not a denomination that we must come out of.

peaceandlove,

janet

nor was "denomination" his point ;)

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 04:32 PM
nor was "denomination" his point ;)

But it was when he pointed at the RCC yes?

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 04:33 PM
I think you are missing the deception of the RCC. The teaching of the church and how they took power.

She is the Mother of these traditions and she wiped the true worshipers of God in Spirit of the map to retain her seat of power.

And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

If you go back and look at Elijah and the GODS they whorshiped you will see the same in the RCC.

Yes this teaching is throughout the world and where did it come from? Was it not from the out work pagan teachers in the days of Christ? Yes antichrist was then as it is now.

Those that think the teachings of the RCC are no different than other denominations have not studied the religion. She is the Spiritual whore... mary worship... queen of heaven... the litany of saints... I could go on and on!

The RCC is "full of names of blasphemy"! Name another?

Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Yes the teaching is throughout the earth now! As far as I'm concerned Islam wouldn't even exist if the RCC did not wipe out true spirituality.

Does anyone here know who is WORTHY to have the Holy Spirit in that church?

There are many false religions in the world and the only true religion is Spirit filled!

Michael

Hi Michael,

The Lord has shown me something else. I cannot deny what He has shown me.

I know catholics whom are true, spirit led saints.

They have underwent what every single person must undergo...heart operation...through a new heart, being circumcised in and by the holy spirit.

I know catholics that have not had this done...by their fruits you will know them.

I know prodestants in the same way.

It is not a denomination that causes one to receive the circumcision. God can and does work where HE works.

It is men and false teachings that have limited Him.

I cannot go there.


The real problem in this world is not CATHOLICISM,...it is that men do not submit to heart surgery...and, satan has so filled this world with deception, that today, most people are looking in the wrong places for understanding.


peaceandlove,

janet

threebigrocks
Jun 18th 2008, 04:34 PM
Yes, as long as you are not focussing in on one denomination, as the mother of harlots.

The mother was here before her harlots were born..and, the RCC is just a daughter, not the mother, herself.

The fallen world is the MOTHER.

peaceandlove,

janet

The Harlot didn't show up when grace took effect with Christ. Neither at Babel, Sodom and Gemorrah. It took place when people loved the world and sin more than God and came together because of their one mind together.

Scary eh? Considering that we as believers cannot accomplish that, look how easy those of the worldly mindset can come together in unity.

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 04:36 PM
But it was when he pointed at the RCC yes?

or only what was read ???


I have to agree! Yes there are many false doctrines spread throughout the earth and most were derived from the the RCC many years ago. She is the Mother of these traditions and she wiped the true worshipers of God in Spirit of the map to retain her seat of power.

Again, it depends on how deep into the roots we go

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 04:39 PM
Yes excellent point. That is why I strive always, especially in this forum NOT to condemn any one church or nation or people. We are not the ones to call for condemnation of the Jew nor the Muslim, nor the pagan, nor the aethiest, nor any. God has a plan for all his people and you don't know the mind of God. Follow Christs two commandments and in THAT way you watch for the coming of Chirst in all his glory. As Christ was the example unto us so we must be an example for others as Christ works through us. Christ did not throw any stones, he even asked God to forgive those who persecuted and condemned him. If our neighbor lifts their hand against us and causes us offense this comes as no surprise, for as Christ said "if the world hates me, how much more will it hate you?" Christ commited no sin and still they condemned him. We have sinned so the world will condemn us all the more. But if we are steadfast in our faith, we can look into the eyes of the beast and the whore, and reside in Babylon yet remain clean. For that was Christs gift to us in his sacrifice. The perfect sacrifice for OUR sins.

Peace

Exactly! I have been on alot of forums, especially one's that attempt to make the RCC THE WHORE...and, after you spend some time there, and listen to the catholics argue their faith with the prodestants, you soon come to realise that they are all nothing more than the pot calling the kettle black...and, Jesus warned us NOT to judge our brother. When you begin to point a finger at a brother by what denomination he/she attends, you will have four pointing back at you, because it is the holy spirit that gives INCREASE in understanding in the first place and most christians are relying on their so called "sects" for truth.

In the END< though, God is going to judge by the HEART, not what is in our heads!

There are born again catholics...and, whom here is going to deny that?

I hope no one.

Please let us focus on what the REAL problem is.


peaceandlove,

janet

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 04:40 PM
I don't recall ANYone implying that "catholics are evil hearted


This thread is going awry :(

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 04:43 PM
The Harlot didn't show up when grace took effect with Christ. Neither at Babel, Sodom and Gemorrah. It took place when people loved the world and sin more than God and came together because of their one mind together.

Scary eh? Considering that we as believers cannot accomplish that, look how easy those of the worldly mindset can come together in unity.

AMEN....the world has ONE mindset, uncircumcised.

peaceandlove,

janet

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 04:46 PM
I don't recall ANYone implying that "catholics are evil hearted


This thread is going awry :(

Sorry IamBill, your right.

Let's get it back on track.

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 04:48 PM
IamBill,

I certainly apololgise if I have misunderstood what he said. I know how hard it is to communicate in this fashion....especially, since I am a blonde......:D

When I read this:



Quote:
I have to agree! Yes there are many false doctrines spread throughout the earth and most were derived from the the RCC many years ago. She is the Mother of these traditions and she wiped the true worshipers of God in Spirit of the map to retain her seat of power.

Again, it depends on how deep into the roots we go

It appeard to me that he was saying that the RCC is the MOTHER of the traditions within all denominations. THAT is what I do not agree with.

The traditions of men started WAY before the RCC. Jesus told us about it long before that.

The traditions He spoke of were not catholic, at all.

They were traditions built from the root of the fallen world.

Traditions that were based on the "flesh"....instead of the spirit.

These traditions are in all denominations.

..and, they did not have their root in the RCC, they have their root in the fallen world...that is at war against the spirit.


peaceandlove,

janet

SoldierOfChrist
Jun 18th 2008, 04:51 PM
Hi Michael,

The Lord has shown me something else. I cannot deny what He has shown me.

I know catholics whom are true, spirit led saints.

They have underwent what every single person must undergo...heart operation...through a new heart, being circumcised in and by the holy spirit.

I know catholics that have not had this done...by their fruits you will know them.

I know prodestants in the same way.

It is not a denomination that causes one to receive the circumcision. God can and does work where HE works.

It is men and false teachings that have limited Him.

I cannot go there.


The real problem in this world is not CATHOLICISM,...it is that men do not submit to heart surgery...and, satan has so filled this world with deception, that today, most people are looking in the wrong places for understanding.


peaceandlove,

janet

The RCC is the master of deception. I believe that there are catholics that are filled with the Spirit also... however those are the ones that were not decieved... there are also catholics that believe they are saved because a dead saint interceeded for them and Mary redeemed them.

So were the catholics you know saved by Christ, Mary or one of the saints?

I agree BABYLON was in existance before the RCC! But the RCC became BABYLON and the mother of the other children in which protestants are one of them (maybe more of a stuborn stepchild :D).

Yes these traditions came from Babylon but they were adopted by the RCC and put throughout the world by force.

And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

We agree when it comes to Spirit!

Michael

scooter2
Jun 18th 2008, 04:54 PM
Anyone, but the truth is there. ALL paginism came from the era of Constantine that the Church believes today. It didn't come from the Apostiles nor the Bible. This information is recorded in every history book there is where some or most of the traditions of today came from, and if a system is guilty then so be it. I am not a foe to real members of the CC that are true members of G-ds salvation, and there are some like in every other Church system. As Christians we keep pagan holidays that are condemned in the Bible by G-d himself. Christmas and easter come to mind as both came from paganism, so did the changing of the Sabbath to the day we observe. I can find nowhere in the Bible where G-d gave anyone permission to do that, If its there and worded by G-d then I will believe it, but it isn't. All the holidays we keep are not Biblical and against what G-d had written. Look them up, in any good encyclopedia

scooter2
Jun 18th 2008, 04:59 PM
To these facts, but I am not sure it is permitted. It isn't in other forums like carm etc. Even sites like a good encyclopedia or web sites like wikipedia are considered to be cults and so forth. How I have no idea heh. One can't even link to a good site like this one and its the reason I left the site, heh

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 05:00 PM
The RCC is the master of deception. I believe that there are catholics that are filled with the Spirit also... however those are the ones that were not decieved... there are also catholics that believe they are saved because a dead saint interceeded for them and Mary redeemed them.

So were the catholics you know saved by Christ, Mary or one of the saints?

I agree BABYLON was in existance before the RCC! But the RCC became BABYLON and the mother of the other children in which protestants are one of them (maybe more of a stuborn stepchild :D).

Yes these traditions came from Babylon but they were adopted by the RCC and put throughout the world by force.

And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

We agree when it comes to Spirit!

Michael

You are certainly correct when you point the the RCC as one of the main entities pushing false doctrine by force. But we can't make the mistake of pointing at JUST them, or make the mistake of thinking that since they are the biggest they are the only one we need be carefull of, or point to it as the harlot. All the systems of false teaching are the false prophet. The whore is the fine things in life that the beast covets, and that the false prophet facillitates by not calling it by what it is.

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 05:03 PM
To these facts, but I am not sure it is permitted. It isn't in other forums like carm etc. Even sites like a good encyclopedia or web sites like wikipedia are considered to be cults and so forth. How I have no idea heh. One can't even link to a good site like this one and its the reason I left the site, heh

Are you talking about facts or doctrine or truth. All three are different.

SoldierOfChrist
Jun 18th 2008, 05:04 PM
I don't recall ANYone implying that "catholics are evil hearted

This thread is going awry :(

It doesn't matter if you believe the RCC is or is not the whore as it is clear he is calling HIS people out of her. It is clear Gods people are part of it and he wants them out.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

It's about the deception being taught.

Michael

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 05:04 PM
Michael, I agree and see that "TODAY" (or yesteryear) the RCC has set it in stone -became(or self proclaimed) the root of Christianity. Claims to be the first, when it was noting more that the cross between the gods of old, Rome and Christ

and embedded so much falsity into the doctrines of the churches of today that man is now divided in 100's of ways -even within denominations there is disagreement --> Bable

Materialism is a distraction -false gods/Idols -worldly matters

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 05:04 PM
It doesn't matter if you believe the RCC is or is not the whore as it is clear he is calling HIS people out of her. It is clear Gods people are part of it and he wants them out.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

It's about the deception being taught.

Michael

Or the deception not being taught. ;)

scooter2
Jun 18th 2008, 05:08 PM
Is wikipedia a cult? Are facts depending on where they come from cults? And truth is truth no matter where it is found

SoldierOfChrist
Jun 18th 2008, 05:10 PM
You are certainly correct when you point the the RCC as one of the main entities pushing false doctrine by force. But we can't make the mistake of pointing at JUST them, or make the mistake of thinking that since they are the biggest they are the only one we need be carefull of, or point to it as the harlot. All the systems of false teaching are the false prophet. The whore is the fine things in life that the beast covets, and that the false prophet facillitates by not calling it by what it is.

Who is pointing at just them... not me! Like I said do you cut off the head or the tail to kill a snake?

Great discussion but I gotta go to work. :(

Michael

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 05:11 PM
Jesus is the Way and the Truth and the Light.

Facts are from science so falsely called. It is a fact that when you put a heavy object in water it sinks.

Jesus walked on water and THAT my friend is the difference between fact and truth.

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 05:11 PM
The RCC is the master of deception. I believe that there are catholics that are filled with the Spirit also... however those are the ones that were not decieved... there are also catholics that believe they are saved because a dead saint interceeded for them and Mary redeemed them.

So were the catholics you know saved by Christ, Mary or one of the saints?

I agree BABYLON was in existance before the RCC! But the RCC became BABYLON and the mother of the other children in which protestants are one of them (maybe more of a stuborn stepchild :D).

Yes these traditions came from Babylon but they were adopted by the RCC and put throughout the world by force.

And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

We agree when it comes to Spirit!

Michael

I do not agree that the RCC became Babylon.

I believe that Babylon is the same entity it has always been from the beginning...the fallen world, all those whom have not underwent a heart change.

I agree that the RCC is amongst the daughters of babylon, along with all other denominations, so perhaps we are just having a problem with what we agree the SOURCE is still....

for example, when I read this text:

Titus 1




1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:1&t=asv&sr=1&l=en) Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,

(http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:2&t=asv&sr=1&l=en)
2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:2&t=asv&sr=1&l=en) in hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal;


3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:3&t=asv&sr=1&l=en) but in his own seasons manifested his word in the message, wherewith I was intrusted according to the commandment of God our Saviour;


4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:4&t=asv&sr=1&l=en) to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.



(catholics are saved by the same common faith as any other christian is...and, the rest of their dogma's are in no way different than the rest of the other denominations dogma's, that seek to interpret the word of God through men..instead of through each person individually, learning one on one, via the holy spirit, and in this way, I could never say that the RCC is somehow worse, or the mother of harlots)





5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:5&t=asv&sr=1&l=en) For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that were wanting, and appoint elders in every city, as I gave thee charge;





6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:6&t=asv&sr=1&l=en) if any man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having children that believe, who are not accused of riot or unruly.


7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:7&t=asv&sr=1&l=en) For the bishop must be blameless, as God's steward; not self-willed, not soon angry, no brawler, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre;

8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:8&t=asv&sr=1&l=en) but given to hospitality, as lover of good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled;


9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:9&t=asv&sr=1&l=en) holding to the faithful word which is according to the teaching, that he may be able to exhort in the sound doctrine, and to convict the gainsayers. 10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:10&t=asv&sr=1&l=en)





(these are the things that God are against, things pertaining to things that the flesh manifests...it has nothing to do with the dogma's of men, in their particular "faith's" or interpretations of scripture....satan does not want God's people to figure this out...so, he has placed a smokescreen of something else.)


For there are many unruly men, vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision, 11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:11&t=asv&sr=1&l=en) whose mouths must be stopped; men who overthrow whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.



(do you understand what he means here by "those of the circumcision?", it has nothing to do with the catholic church.)
(http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:12&t=asv&sr=1&l=en)
12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:12&t=asv&sr=1&l=en) One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, idle gluttons. (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:13&t=asv&sr=1&l=en)
(http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:13&t=asv&sr=1&l=en)
13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:13&t=asv&sr=1&l=en) This testimony is true. For which cause reprove them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:14&t=asv&sr=1&l=en)
(http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:14&t=asv&sr=1&l=en)
14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:14&t=asv&sr=1&l=en) not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

(http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:15&t=asv&sr=1&l=en)
(http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:15&t=asv&sr=1&l=en)
(this is what is at the heart of the problem....not the RCC.) (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:15&t=asv&sr=1&l=en)
(http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:15&t=asv&sr=1&l=en)
15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:15&t=asv&sr=1&l=en) To the pure all things are pure: but to them that are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

(http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:16&t=asv&sr=1&l=en)
(http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:16&t=asv&sr=1&l=en)
16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+1:16&t=asv&sr=1&l=en) They profess that they know God; but by their works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.



I hope if we disagree, we can likewise, understand why...and, I am not trying to get anyone to view it as I do, I am simply here, sharing what I feel the Lord has shown me, and why.







peaceandlove,



janet

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 05:12 PM
Who is pointing at just them... not me! Like I said do you cut off the head or the tail to kill a snake?

Great discussion but I gotta go to work. :(

Michael

I didn't mean to imply that, I'm sorry if I did. Glad to have you in the discussion. :hug:

scooter2
Jun 18th 2008, 05:12 PM
Is it? or is it really the truth?


December 25th is well known as the birthday of various pagan gods.
A Roman calendar drawn up by a "Christian" in 354 A.D. (The Codex Calendar of 354) shows December 25 to be the birthday of Sol Invictus. Not only is it listed as a pagan birthday; but, it is listed as the most important pagan birthday of the whole year. It was celebrated in the Roman Circus with extra chariot races. This is the sun god that Constantine the Great worshipped while claiming to be a "Christian." His coins state that he was "committed to Sol Invictus." Constantines’ form of "Christianity" continues to influence Christianity today. December 25th is just one example. Satan wants to be "God." The first four commandments tell us who "God" really is. Satan hates that and has done everything possible to abrogate those commandments. Calling December 25th the birthday of Jesus is nothing less than sticking a pagan god in the face of the "God" of the Bible - a direct violation of the first commandment.

This type of info can be found in any good encyclopedia

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 05:19 PM
Is it? or is it really the truth?


December 25th is well known as the birthday of various pagan gods.
A Roman calendar drawn up by a "Christian" in 354 A.D. (The Codex Calendar of 354) shows December 25 to be the birthday of Sol Invictus. Not only is it listed as a pagan birthday; but, it is listed as the most important pagan birthday of the whole year. It was celebrated in the Roman Circus with extra chariot races. This is the sun god that Constantine the Great worshipped while claiming to be a "Christian." His coins state that he was "committed to Sol Invictus." Constantines’ form of "Christianity" continues to influence Christianity today. December 25th is just one example. Satan wants to be "God." The first four commandments tell us who "God" really is. Satan hates that and has done everything possible to abrogate those commandments. Calling December 25th the birthday of Jesus is nothing less than sticking a pagan god in the face of the "God" of the Bible - a direct violation of the first commandment.

This type of info can be found in any good encyclopedia

On this we will just have to agree to disagree friend. I think Christmas is a pagan holiday myself, but don't tie it Rome.

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 05:23 PM
Who is pointing at just them... not me! Like I said do you cut off the head or the tail to kill a snake?

Great discussion but I gotta go to work. :(

Michael

Didn't you say that the catholic church became Babylon, making them ALONE the mother of harlots?

If I misread you, I apologise.

peaceandlove,

janet

scooter2
Jun 18th 2008, 05:24 PM
Its where the idea came from. Began by Constantine and adopted by that Church, and also adopted by the protestant Church system. Easter is also a pagan holiday confirmed by history and encyclopedias. The Bible also has condemnation of the Christmas holiday from G-d himself. If you know where to look.

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 05:26 PM
O.K. how is this analogy.

You have a bowl, that is Babylon. It holds everything together.

You have broth in the bowl, that is the sea of peoples, and multitudes and nations and tongues.

You have nice veggies and meats and pastas floating in the bowl. That is the whore and her daughters and her cup full of abominations that people like to eat.

And the false prophet is the one who brings it to your table and tells you it's O.K. to eat it, and doesn't tell you the dangers lying within.

And the dragon? He's the chef in the kitchen that whipped it all up special just for you.

And the Holy Spirit is the one who sits at your table and tells you it's poison and to leave it at the table and follow Christ.

scooter2
Jun 18th 2008, 05:29 PM
2 The Lord says, “Do not start following pagan religious practices. Do not be in awe of signs that occur in the sky even though the nations hold them in awe. 3 For the religion of these people is worthless. They cut down a tree in the forest, and a craftsman makes it into an idol with his tools. 4 He decorates it with overlays of silver and gold. He uses hammer and nails to fasten it together so that it will not fall over. 5 Such idols are like scarecrows in a cucumber field. They cannot talk. They must be carried because they cannot walk

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 05:35 PM
Actually true church history shows that the church at that time decided to celebrate His birth on that day, to overthrow the pagan idea that their gods held that day as some type of special day. In the new covenant, days of themselves are not something we are held under bondage to.

We are free to celebrate His birth if we so choose, on any day, His resurection, and likewise, God is not concerned on what the pagans say the days represent. They are dumb idols and lack no real LIFE.

It is a misconception to say that the church began those traditions for evil reasons....and, it is also wrong to judge before the time, as we see written, especially when there is much evidence that they did not do if for those evil reasons...but, as is written in history, to undo what the pagans had enforced.


peaceandlove,


janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 05:38 PM
O.K. how is this analogy.

You have a bowl, that is Babylon. It holds everything together.

You have broth in the bowl, that is the sea of peoples, and multitudes and nations and tongues.

You have nice veggies and meats and pastas floating in the bowl. That is the whore and her daughters and her cup full of abominations that people like to eat.

And the false prophet is the one who brings it to your table and tells you it's O.K. to eat it, and doesn't tell you the dangers lying within.

And the dragon? He's the chef in the kitchen that whipped it all up special just for you.

And the Holy Spirit is the one who sits at your table and tells you it's poison and to leave it at the table and follow Christ.

:idea: PERFECT.

peaceandlove,

janet

scooter2
Jun 18th 2008, 05:38 PM
Was adopt those pagan holidays to get pagans to come into the Church, worked, but they brought their paganism with them, and it was adopted as Gospel, but Biblically it isn't.

fewarechosen
Jun 18th 2008, 05:43 PM
for my 2 cents i dont think anyone is being disrespectfull and i think out little debate is going very well.

im just trying to flesh out a little more of my thoughts

now if rcc was babylon it would be the mother and nothing would have been before it.

but christ hated the doctrine of nicolations --which rcc wasnt even around then.

so babylon spawned even that. same way it spawned all other denominations and divisions.

rcc didnt spawn hinduism or buddism but the babylon sure did.

now also i was born in the rcc went to a rcc school so i do have a good understanding of their doctrine. all their doctrine comes from the same place as hinduism and others.anything that is not of truth is from "him"

shes the mother of them all not just the stuff after rcc.

the rcc is just a daughter, just as any other denom or other religion.

it has many more blasphemes written in her head than just the rcc contains, the mother of these things is much much bigger.

i feel the master of deception is the nature in humanity that led to the formation of such things like the rcc not the rcc.

and i look forward to you coming back from work soldier, by no means am i trying to bash you or something -- i know there is something to be learned from what you are saying --heck i was even taught something through you from the blashpeme thread -- so i look forward to more of your input

fewarechosen
Jun 18th 2008, 05:47 PM
O.K. how is this analogy.

You have a bowl, that is Babylon. It holds everything together.

You have broth in the bowl, that is the sea of peoples, and multitudes and nations and tongues.

You have nice veggies and meats and pastas floating in the bowl. That is the whore and her daughters and her cup full of abominations that people like to eat.

And the false prophet is the one who brings it to your table and tells you it's O.K. to eat it, and doesn't tell you the dangers lying within.

And the dragon? He's the chef in the kitchen that whipped it all up special just for you.

And the Holy Spirit is the one who sits at your table and tells you it's poison and to leave it at the table and follow Christ.

and we are the beast that wants to eat :)

good analogy

but im hungry i just want a little of whats in the bowl, it cant be that bad everyone else is eating it lol

threebigrocks
Jun 18th 2008, 05:55 PM
Let's try and turn from proving or disproving the RCC as Babylon, and establishing biblically what truly is Babylon today. ;) I don't want to see this thread go goofy, there is some good discussion going on.

threebigrocks
Jun 18th 2008, 05:57 PM
and we are the beast that wants to eat :)

good analogy

but im hungry i just want a little of whats in the bowl, it cant be that bad everyone else is eating it lol

No kidding - nobody is dropping dead before our eyes, how bad can it be?

Thing is, we cannot escape physical death. It's that second death in which the soup will drown and choke us into.

fewarechosen
Jun 18th 2008, 06:02 PM
Let's try and turn from proving or disproving the RCC as Babylon, and establishing biblically what truly is Babylon today. ;) I don't want to see this thread go goofy, there is some good discussion going on.


your right - im gonna have to spend some time thinking and praying to sort of sum up my thoughts on it , because my understanding has grown alot since this thread even started.

so thanks all for that :)

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 06:12 PM
Rev 17:5
and upon her forehead a name written,

MYSTERY,

BABYLON THE GREAT,

THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND OF

THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

a name- what is it ?

I would also like to know of scripture that names a "beast" as anything other than an empire/kingdom/Man rule

scooter2
Jun 18th 2008, 06:21 PM
Let's try and turn from proving or disproving the RCC as Babylon, and establishing biblically what truly is Babylon today. ;) I don't want to see this thread go goofy, there is some good discussion going on.


Trying to be goofy, heh. I am stating a fact of history, AND it is part of the confusion/babylon/babel of religion today. Babylon/Babel means confusion of religion, not national or governmental groups.

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 06:26 PM
I also wonder If any sees the diferences between these beasts. there is variation between the one in 17 and 13 and 12

fewarechosen
Jun 18th 2008, 06:43 PM
Rev 17:5
and upon her forehead a name written,

MYSTERY,

BABYLON THE GREAT,

THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND OF

THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

a name- what is it ?

I would also like to know of scripture that names a "beast" as anything other than an empire/kingdom/Man rule

good point bill

when i read it i took it to mean the name was --MYSTERY,BABYLON THE GREAT ....
so maybe i misread it -- so i think that does bring up a good point, im curious to see what others think of that.

now in chapter 19 vers 16
"and he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS,AND LORD OF LORDS"

so i sort of see the same phrasing and all caps. so either both bolds are the names or i am misreading both

now as the beast -it looks like we even have to look further.

now in rev 17 verse one -- it says the
"whore that sitteth upon many waters
in verse 3 -- it says
" a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast"

so i think its interesting right there that verse 1 doesnt read the whore sitteth upon a beast that is over many waters

now verse 15
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.


so when we look at this does it mean tha since she sits on the beast and on the waters

that the beast is --the peoples multitudes and nations and tongues

fewarechosen
Jun 18th 2008, 07:05 PM
this is for beast comparison


daniel

3And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. 8I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.



rev


1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

also bill in rev 12 its a dragon not a beast -- just pointing that out as perhaps its a difference

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 07:34 PM
good point bill

when i read it i took it to mean the name was --MYSTERY,BABYLON THE GREAT ....
so maybe i misread it -- so i think that does bring up a good point, im curious to see what others think of that.

now in chapter 19 vers 16
"and he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS,AND LORD OF LORDS"

so i sort of see the same phrasing and all caps. so either both bolds are the names or i am misreading both

Well I think we know that the "King of Kings and Load of Lords" is - "Jesus" (in our words)


now as the beast -it looks like we even have to look further.

now in rev 17 verse one -- it says the
"whore that sitteth upon many waters
in verse 3 -- it says
" a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast"

so i think its interesting right there that verse 1 doesnt read the whore sitteth upon a beast that is over many waters

now verse 15
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.


so when we look at this does it mean tha since she sits on the beast and on the waters

that the beast is --the peoples multitudes and nations and tongues
17:1 ....... I will show thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters
----ok yeah

17:3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness: and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet-colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
(Also - No Crowns) but yeah, check.

But -
17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou wonder? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and the ten horns.
17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, [they] whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.
9 Here is the mind that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth:

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
I think she sits on the beast who stands near/at/in the waters
:hmm:

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 07:41 PM
this is for beast comparison


daniel

3And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. 8I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.



rev


1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Rev 13 to be exact, not 17 --also Note that that one has ten Crowns and blasphemy upon it's heads ----And where is the whore ?
:hmm:

Also! LOL--""and the dragon gave him his power"" --This dragon ->12:3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems.

threebigrocks
Jun 18th 2008, 07:44 PM
Trying to be goofy, heh. I am stating a fact of history, AND it is part of the confusion/babylon/babel of religion today. Babylon/Babel means confusion of religion, not national or governmental groups.

What amount of confusion can national or governmental groups lend to the confusion of the faith? TONS. Because it's of the world and we are prone to being drawn to it unless we are firmly rooted and taking every thought captive.

Of course, the greatest deception is 99% truth. If we saw it as deception we'd never buy it. Look at Oprah, Tom Cruise and those types. Ooo, aaahhh - actors, entertainment - and poison to the soul. Entertainers, politics, activists groups all can draw us away and cause confusion by weaving a mighty web of deception that appears to be truth without having an ounce of footing in anything remotely religious.

scooter2
Jun 18th 2008, 07:53 PM
What amount of confusion can national or governmental groups lend to the confusion of the faith? TONS. Because it's of the world and we are prone to being drawn to it unless we are firmly rooted and taking every thought captive.

Of course, the greatest deception is 99% truth. If we saw it as deception we'd never buy it. Look at Oprah, Tom Cruise and those types. Ooo, aaahhh - actors, entertainment - and poison to the soul. Entertainers, politics, activists groups all can draw us away and cause confusion by weaving a mighty web of deception that appears to be truth without having an ounce of footing in anything remotely religious.


Confusion reigns in every walk of life as the worship of actors and so forth shows. But the confusion spoken about in the Bible is religion. Biblically a woman, whore, harlot always means a religious system. It never means women in particular. Israel is a she Biblically, so is the Church system. Besides the Church Jesus founded was in a Synagogue, and those that followed him were called the way or assembly. All of them to start with were Jewish and Jesus came only to the lost tribes of Israel. But herein lies the problem, Jews are only one tribe of Israel, comprised of Judah and Benjamin with some Levites. The Lost tribes are NOT those seen in Israel today although they are part of Israel [Jews] Israel is NOT in Israel yet.

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 08:16 PM
What amount of confusion can national or governmental groups lend to the confusion of the faith? TONS. Because it's of the world and we are prone to being drawn to it unless we are firmly rooted and taking every thought captive.

Of course, the greatest deception is 99% truth. If we saw it as deception we'd never buy it. Look at Oprah, Tom Cruise and those types. Ooo, aaahhh - actors, entertainment - and poison to the soul. Entertainers, politics, activists groups all can draw us away and cause confusion by weaving a mighty web of deception that appears to be truth without having an ounce of footing in anything remotely religious.

I agree with both of you, it lends a great hand in it. Even in the US with separation, that alone is a huge issue, ultimately draws them(church/state) together while dividing people on the issue.

IamBill
Jun 18th 2008, 08:30 PM
Confusion reigns in every walk of life as the worship of actors and so forth shows. But the confusion spoken about in the Bible is religion. Biblically a woman, whore, harlot always means a religious system. It never means women in particular. Israel is a she Biblically, so is the Church system. Besides the Church Jesus founded was in a Synagogue, and those that followed him were called the way or assembly. All of them to start with were Jewish and Jesus came only to the lost tribes of Israel. But herein lies the problem, Jews are only one tribe of Israel, comprised of Judah and Benjamin with some Levites. The Lost tribes are NOT those seen in Israel today although they are part of Israel [Jews] Israel is NOT in Israel yet.

:) Scooter, are you in any way able to align the 12 tribes (in relation to ten lost)
to this -
Dan 7:24 And as for the ten horns, out of this kingdom shall ten kings arise: and another shall arise after them; and he shall be diverse from the former, and he shall put down three kings.

It would be very helpful Info :hmm:
-something like - two of the twelve forming one, which forms a 1-10 split(actually 2-10)
Then the One(two) consuming/absorbing/Put down Three of the(lost) ten
??
Or not ? :lol:

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 08:40 PM
IamBill you are wise to notice that the beasts are not exactly the same. The beast has evolved through history and will quickly evolve the closer we come to the end.

the constant is that the beast has seven heads. The ten kings in the first beast has crowns. The ten horns on the second do not.

The horns represent kings.

The crowns on the horns represent Kingdoms.

fewarechosen
Jun 18th 2008, 08:48 PM
see scooter i cant agree with babylon being just religion

notice in revelation chapter 18 it goes into great lengths about merchants and material goods.

saying " no man buyeth their merchandise anymore"

it also goes on to say

"all things which were dainty and goodly departed from thee, and that thou shall find them no more at all"

now if babylon was just a religion or religous city or just one specific city. if jerusalm was the city babylon that god is going to wreck he could blow it up right now every last inch -- and this very day i could still pay my internet bill here in america, people would still be going to walmart to buy clothes i would still click on my tv and watch the news.



you could destroy every religous temple and building of every kind right now and that would not cause you to be able to find those find merchandises anymore.

notice how all the merchants weep -- thats because ALL earthly goods are smashed not just some religous institutions.

that chapter goes into great lengths describing merchandise then goes on to say it will be found no more. no one will care about a rolex watch when they can find food no where.

if god was just smiting some religous stuff it wouldnt stop everyone else, but he is smiting the great city, thats why she is called a city. because all nations are drunk with her goods and as such all will be smashed. and every merchant will wheep.

so i do suggest reading that chapter

scooter2
Jun 18th 2008, 09:24 PM
see scooter i cant agree with babylon being just religion

notice in revelation chapter 18 it goes into great lengths about merchants and material goods.

saying " no man buyeth their merchandise anymore"

it also goes on to say

"all things which were dainty and goodly departed from thee, and that thou shall find them no more at all"

now if babylon was just a religion or religous city or just one specific city. if jerusalm was the city babylon that god is going to wreck he could blow it up right now every last inch -- and this very day i could still pay my internet bill here in america, people would still be going to walmart to buy clothes i would still click on my tv and watch the news.



you could destroy every religous temple and building of every kind right now and that would not cause you to be able to find those find merchandises anymore.

notice how all the merchants weep -- thats because ALL earthly goods are smashed not just some religous institutions.

that chapter goes into great lengths describing merchandise then goes on to say it will be found no more. no one will care about a rolex watch when they can find food no where.

if god was just smiting some religous stuff it wouldnt stop everyone else, but he is smiting the great city, thats why she is called a city. because all nations are drunk with her goods and as such all will be smashed. and every merchant will wheep.

so i do suggest reading that chapter


Somewhat about what you say, But it still is religious in form, and the Vatican is a government/country all to itself. However the place it is talking about is Rome. The Babylon of the Bible is but a spot in the road today and therefore it can't be it. Jerusalem can't be it as G-d will protect it. That leaves either the Beast [the EU], or the US perhaps. If G-d smote the Vatican it would be the head of a religious system, and most likely the one that the beast will come from, or be governed by thru the anti-messiah.

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 09:37 PM
Somewhat about what you say, But it still is religious in form, and the Vatican is a government/country all to itself. However the place it is talking about is Rome. The Babylon of the Bible is but a spot in the road today and therefore it can't be it. Jerusalem can't be it as G-d will protect it. That leaves either the Beast [the EU], or the US perhaps. If G-d smote the Vatican it would be the head of a religious system, and most likely the one that the beast will come from, or be governed by thru the anti-messiah.

I don't believe in the concept of a singular anti-messiah or a singular anti-christ.

There were, are, and will be many antichrists and it is by looking for this antichrist and false prophet that many will be deceived.

DurbanDude
Jun 18th 2008, 09:54 PM
Let me say it again:

Rev 17:18

"the woman is the city that rules over the kings of the earth"

This was written in the first century. As far as defining that city goes , which city fulfils all the verses about that city? The only verse that hasn't yet been fulfilled is the nature of the destruction of the city, the city still exists.

Sure , Babylon was the mother of harlots , many harlots , and Rome has been too. False religions birthing more false religions. Revelation 17 says "come out of her" ... this was fulfilled in a major way by Martin Luther and the reformation , but the call to those true believers who remain in that environment of false doctrine continues until today. Revelation 17 does not say that this city is the mother of ALL harlots , other cities and religions have also had breakaway cults and instigated additional beliefs, and been involved in influencing politics.

Why generalise the interpretation of the bible when the bible is steering the reader to define a specific city as a city that "rides" the final empire/beast . In what way are Jerusalem or Babylon or the false religious system or denominations wearing purple and scarlet robes? Golden cups?? The whole chapter of Rvelation 17 fits Rome and only Rome.