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MeerkatMadden
Jun 9th 2008, 08:14 PM
Over 40 Million Dead Babies - Will Either Obama Or McCain Stop The American Abortion Holocaust?

Source: http://shatteredparadigm.blogspot.com/2008/06/over-40-million-dead-babies-will-either.html

Since 1973, way over 40 MILLION innocent babies have been chopped up and slaughtered in the American abortion mills.

We have dissected them, burned them alive, sucked their brains out and yet the American people seem to care less about this than ever.

How far down the toilet have we gone as a society when we kill about a million babies a year, and nobody even gets upset about it anymore?

Will our new president that we elect in November do something about this horror?

Well, let's hear what John McCain has to say. He is the candidate who is supposed to be "Pro-Life".

John McCain: “It’s not social issues I care about”

John McCain: “I’d love to see a point where Roe vs. Wade is irrelevant, and could be repealed because abortion is no longer necessary. But certainly in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal of Roe vs. Wade, which would then force women in America to [undergo] illegal and dangerous operations.”

Source: Ron Fournier, Associated Press Aug 24, 1999

But John McCain insists he is pro-life now. Sort of.

Well, how do we explain McCain’s support for federally-funded embryonic stem cell research (Embryo Murder) (H.R. 810)????

So McCain is in favor of chopping up embryos and using them for research, he claims to be in favor of overturning Roe v. Wade "someday" but certainly not any time soon, and he admittedly doesn't even care about social issues.

(Article continues at the source article linked above)

Clavicula_Nox
Jun 9th 2008, 10:53 PM
They can't. A poster on this forum has very carefully pointed out the reasons why they cannot just arbitrarily ban abortion.

KATA_LOUKAN
Jun 10th 2008, 05:53 PM
Even if the best case scenario were to play out, the decision would just go back to the states (and a lot of girls would end up crossing state lines to get abortions).

Which is why im wondering whats going to happen in Colorado when they pass this life amendment. The legal battle will be epic.

Revinius
Jun 10th 2008, 06:05 PM
I am convinced its not something that can be fought on the legal front but on the educational and spiritual front. Firstly, kids need to be educated about abortions and the dangers to both baby and mum. Secondly, on a spiritual and human level, ALL people need to be acknowledged as having dignity and not just those that have a voice, but those that do not yet have one. People need to acknowledge the capacity for life and not just endlessly argue on when life begins or not.

Athanasius
Jun 12th 2008, 01:03 PM
Sadly one of the people who best understood what's going on was Fredreich Nietzsche. How do you replace God once He's 'dead'? Yourself. Who takes precedent? The strong over the weak...

Revinius
Jun 12th 2008, 02:37 PM
Sadly one of the people who best understood what's going on was Fredreich Nietzsche. How do you replace God once He's 'dead'? Yourself. Who takes precedent? The strong over the weak...

Its refreshing on the rare occasion you meet and honest atheist.

DeadtoSin
Jun 12th 2008, 03:31 PM
Though you guys may not like the guy, you may want to call your Representatives when Ron Paul reintroduces his bill. It is called the Sanctity of Life act, and both the GOP and the Democrats seem to squash his bill. It would define a fetus as a living being, and would essentially overturn Roe vs Wade.

I hate the idea of using the Supreme Court like most other people seem to want to do. Sure, if you can get hold the Supreme Court you are the one in power. What happens if there ends up being a strong liberal bias in the Supreme Court? How can we complain about using the Supreme Court to further our agenda if we do it as well? I'm tired of the conservative and liberal Supreme Court members alike using their positions of power to legislate from the bench.

Revinius
Jun 13th 2008, 05:19 PM
God is my supreme court :D

ddlewis86
Jun 14th 2008, 01:43 AM
Well don't count on Obama doing anything but making things worse.


Obama's Abortion Bombshell: Unrestricted Abortion Over Wishes of Individual States a Priority for Presidency

By Peter J. Smith

WASHINGTON, D.C., June 10, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Barack Obama, the presumptive pro-abortion nominee of the Democratic Party, has plans to reward the allies that helped him topple Hillary Clinton from her throne by making total unrestricted abortion in the United States his number one priority as president.

In light of Obama's recently achieved status as the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, Focus on the Family's CitizenLink has decided to remind its supporters that almost one year has passed since Obama made his vows to the Planned Parenthood Action Fund that abortion would be the first priority of his administration.

"The first thing I'd do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act," Obama said in his July speech to abortion advocates worried about the increase of pro-life legislation at the state level.

The Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA) is legislation Obama has co-sponsored along with 18 other senators that would annihilate every single state law limiting or regulating abortion, including the federal ban on partial birth abortion.

The 2007 version of FOCA proposed: "It is the policy of the United States that every woman has the fundamental right to choose to bear a child, to terminate a pregnancy prior to fetal viability, or to terminate a pregnancy after fetal viability when necessary to protect the life or health of the woman."

Obama made his remarks in a question-and-answer session after delivering a speech crystallizing for abortion advocates his deep-seated abortion philosophy and his belief that federal legislation will break pro-life resistance and end the national debate on abortion. (see transcript: http://lauraetch.googlepages.com/barackobamabeforeplannedpar...)

"I am absolutely convinced that culture wars are so nineties; their days are growing dark, it is time to turn the page," Obama said in July. "We want a new day here in America. We're tired about arguing about the same ole' stuff. And I am convinced we can win that argument."

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jun/08061010.html

redeemedbyhim
Jun 14th 2008, 03:30 AM
"I am absolutely convinced that culture wars are so nineties; their days are growing dark, it is time to turn the page," Obama said in July. "We want a new day here in America. We're tired about arguing about the same ole' stuff. And I am convinced we can win that argument."

"Their days are growing dark"????
If he gets his way they'll be pitch black! :mad:

RoadWarrior
Jun 14th 2008, 04:32 AM
I had posted this in Contro, guess it really belongs in this thread:

The Audacity of Death

By DANIEL ALLOTT

June 5, 2008


</B>According to Barack Obama, Gianna Jessen shouldn't exist. (http://spectator.org/)


Miss Jessen is an exquisite example of what antiabortion advocates call a "survivor." Well into her third trimester of pregnancy, Gianna's biological mother was injected with a saline solution intended to induce a chemical abortion at a Los Angeles County abortion center. Eighteen hours later, and precious minutes before the abortionist's arrival, Gianna emerged. Premature and with severe injuries that resulted in cerebral palsy. But alive.


Had the abortionist been present at her birth, Gianna would have been killed, perhaps by suffocation. As it was, a startled nurse called an ambulance, and Gianna was rushed to a nearby hospital, where, weighing just two pounds, she was placed in an incubator, then, months later, in foster care.


Gianna survived then, and thrives now, because, as she told me recently with a laugh, "I guess I don't die easy." Which is what the abortionist might have thought as he signed his victim's birth certificate. Gianna's medical records state that she was "born during saline abortion."

* * *

As an Illinois state senator, Barack Obama twice opposed legislation to define as "persons" babies who survive late-term abortions. Babies like Gianna. Mr. Obama said in a speech on the Illinois Senate floor that he could not accept that babies wholly emerged from their mother's wombs are "persons," and thus deserving of equal protection under the Constitution's 14th Amendment.

A federal version on the same legislation passed the Senate unanimously and with the support of all but 15 members of the House. Gianna was present when President Bush signed the Born Alive Infants Protection Act in 2002.

When I asked Gianna to reflect on Mr. Obama's candidacy, she paused, then said, "I really hope the American people will have their eyes wide open and choose to be discerning. . . . He is extreme, extreme, extreme."

"Extreme" may not be the impression the hundreds of thousands of Americans who have bought Mr. Obama's autobiography have been left with. In "The Audacity of Hope," Mr. Obama's presidential manifesto, he calls abortion "undeniably difficult," "a very difficult issue," "never a good thing" and "a wrenching moral issue."

He laments his party's "litmus test" for "orthodoxy" on abortion and other issues, and even admits, "I do not presume to know the answer to that question." That question being the moral status of the fetus, who he nonetheless concedes has "moral weight."

Those statements are seriously made but, alas, cannot be taken at all seriously. Mr. Obama has compiled a 100% lifetime "pro-choice" voting record, including votes against any and all restrictions on late-term abortions and parental involvement in teenagers' abortions.


To Mr. Obama, abortion, or "reproductive justice," is "one of the most fundamental rights we possess." And he promises, "the first thing I'd do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act," which would overturn hundreds of federal and state laws limiting abortion, including the federal ban on partial-birth abortion and bans on public funding of abortion.

Then there's Mr. Obama's aforementioned opposition to laws that protect babies born-alive during botched abortions. If partial-birth abortion is, as Democratic icon Daniel Patrick Moynihan labeled it, "too close to infanticide," then what is killing fully-birthed babies?

* * *

On the campaign trail, Mr. Obama seldom speaks about abortion and its related issues. But his few moments of candor are illuminative. When speaking extemporaneously, Mr. Obama will admit things like "I don't want [my daughters] punished with a baby." Or he'll say that voting for legislation allowing Terri Schiavo's family to take its case from state courts to federal courts in an effort to stop her euthanasia was his "biggest mistake" in the Senate. Biggest mistake?

Worst of all are Mr. Obama's accusations against antiabortion advocates. He recently compared his relationship with unrepentant domestic terrorist William Ayers, a member of a group responsible for bombing government buildings, to his friendship with stalwart pro-life physician and senator Tom Coburn.

In his campaign book, Mr. Obama accuses "most anti-abortion activists" of secretly desiring more partial-birth abortions "because the image the procedure evokes in the mind of the public has helped them win converts to their position."

All this explains why the National Abortion Rights Action League voted unanimously to endorse Mr. Obama over Hillary Clinton, as did abortion activist Frances Kissling, who called Mrs. Clinton "not radical enough on abortion."

It's surprising that 18- to 30-year-olds, the most pro-life demographic in a generation, are the same voting bloc from which Barack Obama, the most antilife presidential candidate ever, draws his most ardent supporters.

What's not surprising is that Gianna Jessen, who turned 31 last month, plans not to support Obama.

In "The Audacity of Hope," Mr. Obama denounces abortion absolutism on both ends of the ideological spectrum. That is audacious indeed considering Obama's record, which epitomizes the very radicalism and extremism he denounces.

Mr. Allott is senior writer at American Values, a Washington-area public policy organization.

EarlyCall
Jun 14th 2008, 11:05 AM
"I am absolutely convinced that culture wars are so nineties; their days are growing dark, it is time to turn the page," Obama said in July. "We want a new day here in America. We're tired about arguing about the same ole' stuff. And I am convinced we can win that argument."

And here I thought obama was going to be the great uniter. Well, he does actually intend to do just that. We will all unite under him or be dealt with accordingly.

Kind of like the ruler proclaiming he will bring peace to the land if he has to kill everyone to get it.

Revinius
Jun 14th 2008, 06:29 PM
if the Christian vote actually united against him he would be shut down pretty quickly....

redeemedbyhim
Jun 14th 2008, 06:36 PM
if the Christian vote actually united against him he would be shut down pretty quickly....

Bingo!

(I have to keep on typing because bingo does not fulfil the required amount of letters...la la la la...hope that's enough, now. ;))

stillforgiven
Jun 14th 2008, 06:45 PM
if the Christian vote actually united against him he would be shut down pretty quickly....

And yet, there are many who claim Christianity who have no trouble backing him - even to the point of defending abortion as a human right.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 14th 2008, 07:22 PM
And yet, there are many who claim Christianity who have no trouble backing him - even to the point of defending abortion as a human right.

This has me completley stumped! :confused

I've yet to hear a rational, biblical explanation. I wonder if there is one?

stillforgiven
Jun 14th 2008, 08:02 PM
This has me completely stumped! :confused

I've yet to hear a rational, biblical explanation. I wonder if there is one?

Interestingly enough, the direct question is rarely even acknowledged, much less addressed. I've only see one person even actually answer it, and they said it's a human right of the woman to do what she wishes with her own body. I was like :o. What about the life that is taken? This is called murder. But they see it as the woman having the right to murder if she wishes. I just don't get it.

As for something scriptural to back this up, I have yet to see any verses that support abortion.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 14th 2008, 08:11 PM
Interestingly enough, the direct question is rarely even acknowledged, much less addressed. I've only see one person even actually answer it, and they said it's a human right of the woman to do what she wishes with her own body. I was like :o. What about the life that is taken? This is called murder. But they see it as the woman having the right to murder if she wishes. I just don't get it.

As for something scriptural to back this up, I have yet to see any verses that support abortion.

I know the question is rarely acknowledged, I think it's impossible to support in scripture, or some just don't care if it is or not. :dunno:

I belong to a prolife website, and oddly enough, not a single Christian there supports abortion, we have agnostics and atheiests that don't even support abortion. But, here we have Christians who do. :o
All those that post there that are proabortion do not believe in God. Go figure, I guess.

stillforgiven
Jun 14th 2008, 08:38 PM
I know the question is rarely acknowledged, I think it's impossible to support in scripture, or some just don't care if it is or not. :dunno:

I'm at a loss there too. It's too easy to give the excuse of "it's her choice to murder her child" instead of standing up for what is right. Perhaps they've got some things in their past they cannot deal with (a family member's or even their own abortion), and therefore feel they cannot speak against it. I happen to have lost two family members to abortion (a sister has killed two of her own children), but you won't find me saying it's okay. After the first one, my mom took personally antiabortion rallies, because she and my dad allowed it when my sister was 16. My dad even drove her to another town, because she was too far along for anyone here to accept. My parents are now serving Jesus, so they are now prolife. They've confessed this sin and received cleansing from it.


I belong to a prolife website, and oddly enough, not a single Christian there supports abortion, we have agnostics and atheiests that don't even support abortion. But, here we have Christians who do. :o
All those that post there that are proabortion do not believe in God. Go figure, I guess.

I would say the Christians who do support abortion aren't going to be a member of the prolife webiste, so it makes sense that it's 100% against it there. It's interesting that people who don't even believe in God will still believe life is sacred. And yet, we have Christians who don't. What's up with that? :dunno:

Revinius
Jun 15th 2008, 06:55 AM
And yet, there are many who claim Christianity who have no trouble backing him - even to the point of defending abortion as a human right.

So thats where the problem lies. Not so much with those who are sinners because they dont know any better, but with those who carry the badge of Christ but whose lives are an emblem of sin. Its sad to imagine Hell will be full of such people. :cry:

redeemedbyhim
Jun 15th 2008, 06:14 PM
I'm at a loss there too. It's too easy to give the excuse of "it's her choice to murder her child" instead of standing up for what is right. Perhaps they've got some things in their past they cannot deal with (a family member's or even their own abortion), and therefore feel they cannot speak against it. I happen to have lost two family members to abortion (a sister has killed two of her own children), but you won't find me saying it's okay. After the first one, my mom took personally antiabortion rallies, because she and my dad allowed it when my sister was 16. My dad even drove her to another town, because she was too far along for anyone here to accept. My parents are now serving Jesus, so they are now prolife. They've confessed this sin and received cleansing from it.

How very sad to know you've lost precious family members. But, we can rejoice because one day you will be re-united in perfect love and the same is so true for your dear parents.
Thank God for the cleansing, healing precious Blood of the Lamb!

I hope and pray that those who claim the Name of Jesus who have dealt with abortion will understand the truth that God does forgive and when He does...HE FORGETS our sin! Praise His Name! :pp




I would say the Christians who do support abortion aren't going to be a member of the prolife webiste, so it makes sense that it's 100% against it there.

That's true. The proabortion folks that come there slam Christianity with a vegence! *shudders*


It's interesting that people who don't even believe in God will still believe life is sacred. And yet, we have Christians who don't. What's up with that? :dunno:

Stunning, isn't it?

Buzzword
Jun 15th 2008, 06:31 PM
Too many vague ideas being thrown around here that don't take all possible situations into account.

Let me say first that I don't agree with abortion being used as birth control.
Not enough promotion has been done of adoption, especially for married couples who are biologically incapable of having children.

However, the real question here is not "is life sacred".
I doubt any reasonable human being would answer with anything but "yes."

For me, the question is a political one, not a religious one.
The government should NOT have the power to tell a woman what she can do with her unborn child.
That should be kept within the couple at best, within the family at worst.

If the government is given THAT power, it becomes precident for grabbing MORE power over what we do in private, perhaps giving them legal reason to monitor all human activity on CCTV and hidden recorders...just to "make sure we aren't breaking any laws" and to "keep us safe."

"Those who would sacrifice their liberty for their security deserve neither liberty nor security."
-Benjamin Franklin

Another concern is what happens AFTER abortion is criminalized.
Women who want an abortion will find it, just like a drug addict can always find someone willing to give.
Speaking in humanitarian terms (which have been used in the pro-life stance) is it better for a woman to have the procedure done in a sterile, clean environment by a trained professional...
...or in a back alley somewhere by a shady character with a dull knife?

Revinius
Jun 15th 2008, 07:36 PM
The government should NOT have the power to tell a woman what she can do with her unborn child.
That should be kept within the couple at best, within the family at worst.

You speak like she owns the child?

Buzzword
Jun 15th 2008, 07:43 PM
You speak like she owns the child?
You speak like the government does?

Athanasius
Jun 15th 2008, 08:10 PM
I think the government should have a say in regard to unborn babies. I don't think it's an infringement on liberty or security. The government says, 'no murdering'--none of us would say that's a rights infringment, so why would we say it's a rights infringment when the government says, 'no murdering... unborn babies'.

EarlyCall
Jun 15th 2008, 10:00 PM
Too many vague ideas being thrown around here that don't take all possible situations into account.

Would one of those vague ideas be what God says comdemning abortion?

Let me say first that I don't agree with abortion being used as birth control.
Not enough promotion has been done of adoption, especially for married couples who are biologically incapable of having children.

This could be. And pro-abortionists would like to keep it that way and even make it more difficult to adopt in some cases.

However, the real question here is not "is life sacred".
I doubt any reasonable human being would answer with anything but "yes."

Which is why pro-abortion people have made the question of when life begins nebulous. So they could claim being reasonable while killing the unborn. But when asked when life begins, they won't say.

Now think about that. These reasonable people that you cite as considering life sacred are so nebulous about when life begins that they will "kill" the "unborn" when they are birthed up the the neck even at nine months, stab the babies skull and suck the brains out.

Now that's reasonable! And consider that if one claims not to know when life begins, but aborts all the way until almost time of delivery, are they not risking taking a life? You know, the life that is sacred?

Now that's reasonable!

And what of the reasonable people out there, like obama that do not want a law passed that would prevent babies being allowed to die on a cold steel slab after a failed abortion attempt?

Now that's reasonable!

And what of the people that think the unborn should be aborted because it has downs syndrome? Yea, not because the mother necessarily wants an abortion but because the baby will be a drag on society.

Now that's reasonable!

Lots of very reasonable people out there.

For me, the question is a political one, not a religious one.

Yea, that should fly with God someday - as on the day of judgment. Cause see, with God, it ain't a political question and never will be. Do you think God trumps the constitution?

Just once I'd like to see someone on this board carry on a conversation with God, one we can watch, you know, type it out for us, as though it were the day of judgment - and they were attempting to defend themselves and their position before God Himself.

The government should NOT have the power to tell a woman what she can do with her unborn child.

Really? And yet they can come to your door because someone falsely accuses you of child abuse, take your very long-time born child from you without a trial and drag them off. Yes, we don't want to get something like that started with the unborn!

And yet they, the government can tell you the parents to shut your dumb mouth - they will teach your very long-time born kids whatever they want to teach them in school. Yes, we wouldn't want to get something like that started with the unborn!

That should be kept within the couple at best, within the family at worst.

So the point is that our government doesn't adhere to the standard nor do the pro-abortion folk nor do radical left liberals - except in the case of the unborn and aborting them. But those same people are all for the government telling you what you can and cannot do with your children. One more example is spanking which is increasingly being called abuse.

If the government is given THAT power, it becomes precident for grabbing MORE power over what we do in private, perhaps giving them legal reason to monitor all human activity on CCTV and hidden recorders...just to "make sure we aren't breaking any laws" and to "keep us safe."

I explained above that such things are happening, that the standard you defnd is really not much of a standard at all. So defend the reason why they shouldn't stop women from having abortions since that seems to be the only thing off-limits. The more than four hundred children grabbed up and taken away from their parents and families in Texas a month or so ago is a very good example.

It is one thing to argue for a standard to adhere to but another when such standards no longer really exist or barely exist. Because what you are really arguing now is that we must keep abortion singularly exempt from the government telling us what to do with our children. And thus you are arguing more for abortion than you are for the standard we ought to adhere to.

"Those who would sacrifice their liberty for their security deserve neither liberty nor security."
-Benjamin Franklin

And those that would abort the unborn sacrifice both the security and liberty of the unborn. I might add they bring down the wrath of God on their heads too.

You attempt to claim, by quoting Franklin, that we would sacrifice our liberty if we made abortion illegal. I'm curious. Since abortion was illegal for all but the last 35 years of our nation's entire history, were we in danger of losing our liberty all that time? And we didn't even know it! Wow.

Another concern is what happens AFTER abortion is criminalized.

Perhaps God will honor us for it. He sure is going to do quite the opposite for not doing so. Did you figure God into any of this?

Women who want an abortion will find it, just like a drug addict can always find someone willing to give.

Yes, and people can always manage to kill themselves too. But they don't have to. You seem to be forgetting that. They don't have to.

Speaking in humanitarian terms (which have been used in the pro-life stance) is it better for a woman to have the procedure done in a sterile, clean environment by a trained professional...
...or in a back alley somewhere by a shady character with a dull knife?

Um, actually, if you've been following things, planned parenthood simply brought the back alley into their buildings. That is of course a bit of an exaggeration, but not totally.



Speaking in humanitarian terms, while disregarding the unborn baby entirely... Isn't that what you meant to say above? That is what you did say. Well, you implied we wouldn't be regarding the baby. Same thing. Would you like to try again and speaking in humanitarian terms include the unborn baby? Want to give that a shot?

Want to give it another shot where you both include the baby and God?

But really, if you were to throw God into the mix, if you were to start with God, you know, as in what He says, if you were to start there, where would you go with your argument? You ought to try that.

You have done what so many do. They pretend God doesn't exist - for the sake of the argument. Yes, I'm sorry but you have done exactly that. Not a word of God or what He says anywhere in your post. So please don't try and tell me you didn't exclude God from your argument and your position. This is what Christians are doing today. How sad and how deceived by the world.

Let me pretend to be you or any one of a number of Christians standing before God defending your position on abortion. It's play time.

______________________________

Well, so anyway God, here's the thing see. You have this hang up, issue if you will about not killing the unborn. And well, you know, it's like cramping our style. See, we got us this here constitution thing. And moms got rights. You know what I mean about rights God? Ok, well, we can come back to that later if ya want.

So anyway God, like I was saying... What's that? No hang on a min there God. Wrong, sin, whatever ain't got squat to do with it. We're talking about rights here. You still struggling with graspin rights huh God.

What do you expect women to do God? Get some back alley abortion? Ya know, that used to be how it was dun. And ya know whut? Some women died from the attempted abortion. Now God, you don't want women dyin do ya? That's whut I thought.

What do you mean they have a choice and dont' have to get an abortion? God, are you aware of poor women that can't support a child? What about some poor woman that got raped? You really want them havin that baby?



And then God says:

Each and every person has the choice: come to Me and bring that unborn child as well and trust me. I will never leave you nor forsake you. This is the right thing to do for which I will bless and for the wrong thing I will curse.

Choose you this day either life or death, cursing or blessing.

It's about time some Christians quit excluding God and pretending He has nothing to do with it. Christ died on that cross and there wasn't any way God could have said He had something to do with it any more clearly, any better than that.

Seeker of truth
Jun 15th 2008, 10:24 PM
I think the government should have a say in regard to unborn babies. I don't think it's an infringement on liberty or security. The government says, 'no murdering'--none of us would say that's a rights infringment, so why would we say it's a rights infringment when the government says, 'no murdering... unborn babies'.

:yes: :agree:

Awsome post Xel.

Abortion should be called exactaly what it is....murder!

redeemedbyhim
Jun 15th 2008, 10:28 PM
Speaking in humanitarian terms, while disregarding the unborn baby entirely... Isn't that what you meant to say above? That is what you did say. Well, you implied we wouldn't be regarding the baby. Same thing. Would you like to try again and speaking in humanitarian terms include the unborn baby? Want to give that a shot?

Want to give it another shot where you both include the baby and God?

But really, if you were to throw God into the mix, if you were to start with God, you know, as in what He says, if you were to start there, where would you go with your argument? You ought to try that.

You have done what so many do. They pretend God doesn't exist - for the sake of the argument. Yes, I'm sorry but you have done exactly that. Not a word of God or what He says anywhere in your post. So please don't try and tell me you didn't exclude God from your argument and your position. This is what Christians are doing today. How sad and how deceived by the world.

Let me pretend to be you or any one of a number of Christians standing before God defending your position on abortion. It's play time.

______________________________

Well, so anyway God, here's the thing see. You have this hang up, issue if you will about not killing the unborn. And well, you know, it's like cramping our style. See, we got us this here constitution thing. And moms got rights. You know what I mean about rights God? Ok, well, we can come back to that later if ya want.

So anyway God, like I was saying... What's that? No hang on a min there God. Wrong, sin, whatever ain't got squat to do with it. We're talking about rights here. You still struggling with graspin rights huh God.

What do you expect women to do God? Get some back alley abortion? Ya know, that used to be how it was dun. And ya know whut? Some women died from the attempted abortion. Now God, you don't want women dyin do ya? That's whut I thought.

What do you mean they have a choice and dont' have to get an abortion? God, are you aware of poor women that can't support a child? What about some poor woman that got raped? You really want them havin that baby?



And then God says:

Each and every person has the choice: come to Me and bring that unborn child as well and trust me. I will never leave you nor forsake you. This is the right thing to do for which I will bless and for the wrong thing I will curse.

Choose you this day either life or death, cursing or blessing.

It's about time some Christians quit excluding God and pretending He has nothing to do with it. Christ died on that cross and there wasn't any way God could have said He had something to do with it any more clearly, any better than that.


HERE, HERE!

Well done, well said!

Thank you, EaryCall, for having the courage to speak the truth in love.
There will be no excuse for those who claim the Name of Jesus on that great and dreadful day.

2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 15th 2008, 10:46 PM
It's about time some Christians quit excluding God and pretending He has nothing to do with it. Christ died on that cross and there wasn't any way God could have said He had something to do with it any more clearly, any better than that.


This deserves highlighting considering the forum we are all participating in.

I expect on other forums concerning the issue of abortion for God to remain out of the mix, but not here. Not with Christians.

As Christians we cannot pretend God has not a thought on the subject. He has a thought on EVERY SUBJECT! If we reject His counsel on anything, we reject Him, imo.
Does God desire ALL of our heart, all of our mind? Of course He does.

God will deal with the subject of murder, He will deal with those who have supported the shedding of innocent blood. Don't ever doubt that for one second, if anyone does, they do so at their own peril.

Deuteronomy 19:10
That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

Deuteronomy 21:9
So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the LORD.

Psalm 106:38
And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.

Proverbs 6:16-17
16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

AliveinChristDave
Jun 16th 2008, 05:32 AM
So thats where the problem lies. Not so much with those who are sinners because they dont know any better, but with those who carry the badge of Christ but whose lives are an emblem of sin. Its sad to imagine Hell will be full of such people. :cry:

If the ball is in our hands, and it is, then why do we need laws to stop abortions?
Christians need to get down and get dirty and deal with people in our neighborhoods and cities who might be leaning toward abortions.
Arguing about the politics of abortion hasn't saved one babies life.
But if we go into the highways and hedges and preach the gospel to the sinners then we can do more to stop abortions than any law can.
If the supreme court overturns Row verses Wade that will not stop abortions. People who want them will still get them at record paces.
Just being able to say you voted for a president who opposed abortion isn't enough for us to do.
Just my two cents worth.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 16th 2008, 05:52 AM
If the ball is in our hands, and it is, then why do we need laws to stop abortions?
Christians need to get down and get dirty and deal with people in our neighborhoods and cities who might be leaning toward abortions.
Arguing about the politics of abortion hasn't saved one babies life.
But if we go into the highways and hedges and preach the gospel to the sinners then we can do more to stop abortions than any law can.
If the supreme court overturns Row verses Wade that will not stop abortions. People who want them will still get them at record paces.
Just being able to say you voted for a president who opposed abortion isn't enough for us to do.
Just my two cents worth.

I don't know what you mean about "get down and dirty", but I do understand what you mean by going into the "highways and hedges and preach the Gospel".
That also needs to be coupled with laws, imo. No law will stop all crimes, but it does restrain illegal tendencies and exacts a punishment for breaking the law.
How making abortion legal would set records for abortions doesn't compute and shouldn't be the criteria for making it illegal. What a society, as a whole, gives it's approval to matters to God.
No, it's not enough to just vote for a prolife president, but for the purposes of this discussion, it's the point.
There are many things Christians can do besides vote. Getting involved, writing letters to congress people, editors and such should be done.
Getting involved with your local Crisis Pregnancy Centers is something that is effective and worthwhile. Educating those around you about the side effects of abortion, that are closley hidden should be done.
Sidewalk couseling, donating to RTL organizations, and above all, prayer.

Revinius
Jun 16th 2008, 08:26 AM
You speak like the government does?

Nope, i never suggested that. If you want my opinion, its God who owns the baby. Like Roadwarrior said previously, 'God doesnt have Grandchildren', all things belong to God so we shouldnt be so flippant at giving sentences and 'rights' that arent ours to give.

Revinius
Jun 16th 2008, 08:30 AM
If the ball is in our hands, and it is, then why do we need laws to stop abortions?
Christians need to get down and get dirty and deal with people in our neighborhoods and cities who might be leaning toward abortions.
Arguing about the politics of abortion hasn't saved one babies life.
But if we go into the highways and hedges and preach the gospel to the sinners then we can do more to stop abortions than any law can.
If the supreme court overturns Row verses Wade that will not stop abortions. People who want them will still get them at record paces.
Just being able to say you voted for a president who opposed abortion isn't enough for us to do.
Just my two cents worth.

I am all for setting up infrastructure to enable mothers to have their baby and survive too. I am not so much for blockading abortion clinics and hurling insults as i think thats like street preaching and counter-productive. Battles against sin must be fought on many fronts and when another one opens up we must rush soldiers into the gap to prevent our shrinking kingdom from being overrun (even from within). When Christ returns victory will be at hand, but until then we have a responsibility to be the salt of society.

MeerkatMadden
Jul 15th 2008, 08:54 PM
If we won't stand up for the truth now, when ARE we going to stand up for it?

Revinius
Jul 16th 2008, 05:12 AM
just thinking..... 40 million.... thats prolly the greatest recorded genocide in human history...

Clavicula_Nox
Jul 16th 2008, 03:33 PM
Not really, Stalin still has that topped.

White Spider
Jul 16th 2008, 04:15 PM
You can't expect to change the thought process of the world . . . none of us have that type of power . . .

Satan's been around as long as man and has infected the world and will continue to do so . . .

The only thing we can do is raise our children right and try to infect those around us with the love of Christ . . .

There is only a handful of ways to change all of the U.S. and none are ways God would approve . . .

All the babies will go to heaven, so let's look at the positive here and realize that if these abortionist mothers had kept their babies it's unlikely they would have come to Christ . . . in a sick and twisted way, those sick and twisted women are saving their children.

Now I am certainly not saying what they are doing is alright, but we have to realize our limits and stay within them. We can't change the amount of abortions that will happen no matter what we do, Christ has said leading up to the End things will get worse, and they are certainly getting worse . . .

God's Leading Lady
Jul 16th 2008, 04:26 PM
I'm not sure of the gender of everyone in this thread, but speaking as a woman, this is an issue that I've had to make and take a firm platform: Am I for it or against it? It may be hard to believe, but as a Republican, I recently had considered joining and even opening my own local chapter of NOW (National Organization for Women.) I called headquarters in Washington D.C., got the local number to the chapter located here in Texas (Houston), and requested that information be mailed to me... Boy, was I in for a surprise. Sheesh! :rolleyes:

Of course, they sent me the usual literature and pamphlets, but along with those were enclosed stickers with messages: "Womens Rights", (had no problem with that one), but also "Pro Choice" and "Keep Abortion Legal". This is where I began to have a problem. Keep in mind that the same literature disguised as supporting "womens rights and equality" was more about "same-sex and transgender marriage", than killing a child. So, in other words, "Marry two men, kill a baby." That ought to be the REAL messsge printed on their bumper stickers. (How noble.) :rolleyes: I couldn't, in all good conscience as a woman, American citizen, or a Christian, support nonsense like that. That's not what I stand for.

So, today and to this day, I am Pro-Choice in the sense/meaning that I encourge women to CHOOSE LIFE. When the founding mothers of the womens' rights movement began their struggle in Seneca Falls, New York over 120 years ago, I guarantee you their platform had nothing to do with "same-sex or transgender marriage" or abortion. I believe they would be ashamed to see how much their original platform and mission has been perverted.

Now, back to the question: Can Obama or McCain stop/prevent abortion? NO. Nor will any president ever be able to do so. Unfortunately, at the end of the day, people are going to find a way and a means to do what they want to do. However, I do believe that McCain has always held a "pro-life" stance, and will overall feel much safer with him in office. Believe me, if you were to outlaw abortion today, you would have women literally throwing themselves down flights of stairs for the purpose of miscarrying. I've heard stranger things. Sad, isn't it?

These are exerpts from articles I've found: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18632802

"The misperception is interesting, considering that McCain has not attempted to keep his pro-life views a secret. Here's how he put it on an appearance last year on NBC's Meet the Press:

"I have stated time after time after time that Roe v Wade was a bad decision, that I support a woman — the rights of the unborn — that I have fought for human rights and human dignity throughout my entire political career," McCain said. "To me, it's an issue of human rights and human dignity."

"He's been very consistent; he hasn't changed his position," O'Steen says. He says that his group has supported McCain in every one of his senate races. "We've always considered him pro-life," he says. Nancy Keenan, president of NARAL Pro-Choice America, says her group has always considered McCain pro-life as well. And it's not just abortion, she says.

"He voted against family planning, he voted against the freedom of access to clinic entrances — that was about violence against women in clinics," Keenan says, adding, "He voted against funding for teen pregnancy-prevention programs, and making sure that abstinence only was medically accurate. This is very, very extreme."

John McCain: "I am proud of my pro-life record in public life, and I will continue to maintain it. I will not draw my children into this discussion. As a leader of a pro-life party with a pro-life position, I will persuade young Americans [to] understand the importance of the preservation of the rights of the unborn."
Source: (X-ref from Keyes) GOP Debate in Manchester NH Jan 26, 2000

White Spider
Jul 16th 2008, 05:53 PM
:lol: Sorry I just have to laugh . . . I am a man and all for women's rights, but how it got started is just a crack up . . .

The Rockefeller family played a big role in it, and if you want to know why, it's because they couldn't tax women if they didn't have the same rights as men . . . those who vote are taxed . . . let women vote and you can tax them . . . encourage women to work and the economy grows and they can afford to be taxed . . .

Of course this all from a conspiracy theorists point of view . . . but it's true . . . Rockefeller's to this day have a huge role in the direction this country moves . . .

Sorry it's a bit off topic . . . but I'll say this . . . I'm surprised more people aren't pro-life as that's more taxable people down the line and raising kids is money in the economy . . . :hmm:

Revinius
Jul 17th 2008, 04:33 AM
Not really, Stalin still has that topped.

Yeah, but thats just the US....imagine all the babies ever created.... thats an epic number...

Revinius
Jul 17th 2008, 04:34 AM
i am not presumptuous enough to assume babies go to heaven. Its too close to justifying murder...

quiet dove
Jul 17th 2008, 04:56 AM
i am not presumptuous enough to assume babies go to heaven. Its too close to justifying murder...

So you are saying that believing babies go to heaven is the same as justifying abortion? :eek:

I would consider all babies going to heaven God's mercy. If those advocating abortion believed all babies go to heaven and were into heaven and all, they probably would not be on the pro abortion side of the argument to start with. Of course first they would have to believe life starts at conception for it to matter either way, well or that life begins sometime before full term birth. What does it matter, heaven or hell, when it isn't a baby in the first place as far as many of them are concerned?

Revinius
Jul 17th 2008, 06:53 AM
So you are saying that believing babies go to heaven is the same as justifying abortion? :eek:

I would consider all babies going to heaven God's mercy. If those advocating abortion believed all babies go to heaven and were into heaven and all, they probably would not be on the pro abortion side of the argument to start with. Of course first they would have to believe life starts at conception for it to matter either way, well or that life begins sometime before full term birth. What does it matter, heaven or hell, when it isn't a baby in the first place as far as many of them are concerned?

No i am not saying believing babies go to heaven justifies abortion, just that i would not be so presumptuous in a baseless assumption of that. Assumptions not from scripture tend to lead (often in later generations) to a corruption or heresy of some kind. What i am saying is that there is no basis for the belief that babies go to heaven. God is judge and it may be the case that they do, but it would unwise to put God in a box and assume His will when it is not revealed as such.

White Spider
Jul 17th 2008, 01:35 PM
Perhaps I have a false belief, but at the rapture does not all children unable to understand and grasp God get raptured too whether believers or not? (Perhaps I picked that up from Left Behind or something)

But if that is the case why would babies not go to heaven . . . they cannot know Christ . . . and why would God damn them to Hell when they are the closest things to purity and innocence . . . they have never sinned . . . I would say they deserve heaven much more than I do . . . and with a little brother who was still born it's hard to accept that God would have the capability to send someone who never sinned to Hell . . . I think it's safe to say that all abortion babies go to heaven . . . or those who die even before the age of 5 . . . I mean how can you condemn someone incapable of knowing Christ?

quiet dove
Jul 17th 2008, 05:04 PM
No i am not saying believing babies go to heaven justifies abortion, just that i would not be so presumptuous in a baseless assumption of that. Assumptions not from scripture tend to lead (often in later generations) to a corruption or heresy of some kind. What i am saying is that there is no basis for the belief that babies go to heaven. God is judge and it may be the case that they do, but it would unwise to put God in a box and assume His will when it is not revealed as such.

There are passages that indicate there is a point, or age, that a person is able to 'decide' right from wrong, basically. I think in Isaiah. Whether you would interpret it that way I don't know and sorry, but I can't find it right now. But that is where this belief comes from, and also for the Rapture of any who for whatever reason are not capable of accountability.

That would probably make another thread "age of accountability"
edit: forgot I was in elections,a new thread maybe in Contro, knowing all of us, Contro, yea......LOL

the rookie
Jul 17th 2008, 05:06 PM
Sorry if the last post was slightly off of the current topic (babies and heaven), but some of the earlier posts got me a little stirred up. Fighting for just laws and fighting for clean hearts are not different issues.

quiet dove
Jul 17th 2008, 05:15 PM
Sorry if the last post was slightly off of the current topic (babies and heaven), but some of the earlier posts got me a little stirred up. Fighting for just laws and fighting for clean hearts are not different issues.


No, I think we were posting at the same time and I figured it was me that would lead things astray with "age of accountability"

the rookie
Jul 17th 2008, 05:30 PM
No, I think we were posting at the same time and I figured it was me that would lead things astray with "age of accountability"

:D Well, in that case, I'm reposting because I'd love to hear a response on this...

Four great quotes by Martin Luther King Jr.:

"Law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice, and... when they fail to do this purpose they become dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress."

"Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal."

The first question which the priest and the Levite asked was: "If I stop to help this man, what will happen to me?" But... the good Samaritan reversed the question: "If I do not stop to help this man, what will happen to him?"

And this one, another great one:

"On some positions, Cowardice asks the question, "Is it safe?" Expediency asks the question, "Is it politic?" And Vanity comes along and asks the question, "Is it popular?" But Conscience asks the question "Is it right?" And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but he must do it because Conscience tells him it is right."

There cannot be a false dichotomy established between law and conscience - as if one is unrelated to the other. Do I need the law to stop abortion from happening? Such a question imagines that government is man's idea not God's - part of the exercise of man's obedience to God is to exercise government with righteousness, which is part of the expression of true justice.

I want the law to change because I want the hearts to change - I do not want one or the other. Both must change as we fight for a baby's right to live, or we will lose many needless casualties of war along the way as we wait for the hearts of sinful men to turn. Why not restrain their sinful passions while we convince and plead with them to change? Just law restrains the wickedness of men in a manner that buys time for the in-breaking of God in mercy to turn a heart towards righteousness.

Are we so beholden to the notion of limited government that our ideals have blinded us to the legalized extermination of a generation with no voice? Or is there room to contend for both: a government that serves the people in part through fighting for the lives of those who cannot fight for themselves? Reducing abortion to a political issue ignores the gross injustice of it; yet idealistically elevating abortion above political solutions ignores means within our power to establish a measure of righteousness in the fabric and culture of our nation.

Revinius
Jul 20th 2008, 11:57 AM
Perhaps I have a false belief, but at the rapture does not all children unable to understand and grasp God get raptured too whether believers or not? (Perhaps I picked that up from Left Behind or something)

But if that is the case why would babies not go to heaven . . . they cannot know Christ . . . and why would God damn them to Hell when they are the closest things to purity and innocence . . . they have never sinned . . . I would say they deserve heaven much more than I do . . . and with a little brother who was still born it's hard to accept that God would have the capability to send someone who never sinned to Hell . . . I think it's safe to say that all abortion babies go to heaven . . . or those who die even before the age of 5 . . . I mean how can you condemn someone incapable of knowing Christ?


There are passages that indicate there is a point, or age, that a person is able to 'decide' right from wrong, basically. I think in Isaiah. Whether you would interpret it that way I don't know and sorry, but I can't find it right now. But that is where this belief comes from, and also for the Rapture of any who for whatever reason are not capable of accountability.

That would probably make another thread "age of accountability"
edit: forgot I was in elections,a new thread maybe in Contro, knowing all of us, Contro, yea......LOL

Well rapture is not in scripture either lol :P

Regardless of plausability of any of the theories one 'feels' to be right. I will reiterate again that if its not certainly within scripture i will not presume its rightness. It's the same with the 'age of accountability' theory. On one hand there are verses that point to its existance, but on the other hand there are verses like Psalm 58:3 that support no such thing. I dont mean that such theories are necessarily wrong, only that we perhaps should be careful before adopting them as truth when we do not know that for sure.

quiet dove
Jul 20th 2008, 05:13 PM
Well rapture is not in scripture either lol :P

Regardless of plausability of any of the theories one 'feels' to be right. I will reiterate again that if its not certainly within scripture i will not presume its rightness. It's the same with the 'age of accountability' theory. On one hand there are verses that point to its existance, but on the other hand there are verses like Psalm 58:3 that support no such thing. I dont mean that such theories are necessarily wrong, only that we perhaps should be careful before adopting them as truth when we do not know that for sure.

Well, obviously we didn't just pull theory out of our hat, our 'theories' are based on what we believe scripture teaches. :P

Revinius
Jul 21st 2008, 02:46 AM
Well, obviously we didn't just pull theory out of our hat, our 'theories' are based on what we believe scripture teaches. :P

Yeah but if their are alternative equally valid theories then it would be unwise to place our faith in only one. The only real certainty is God is in control and i will not risk being a liar before Him by ascerting Him going one way when he perhaps may be not. Hope for everything, assume nothing.

White Spider
Jul 21st 2008, 06:54 PM
Yeah but if their are alternative equally valid theories then it would be unwise to place our faith in only one. The only real certainty is God is in control and i will not risk being a liar before Him by ascerting Him going one way when he perhaps may be not. Hope for everything, assume nothing.

But your assuming He doesn't let babies go to heaven . . . more specifically abortion babies.

Let's see what makes more sense . . .

A baby who never has a chance to know Christ, never even had a chance to be born, yet still fully alive, with a soul will go to Hell because he/she did not accept Christ as their Saviour.

Why would that be? Why would God condemn the innocent?

God, who is all loving, who has given us all a second chance . . . takes that chance away from an unborn child just because their mother and/or father decided that miracle of God was something they didn't want? Does that sound like God?

Why would God send the boy or girl to Hell and yet that mother still has a chance to be saved?

God is a just God, a righteous God, a fair and Holy God.

Condemning an unborn child to Hell is unjust, unrighteous, unfair, and unholy . . .

Now believe what you will, but it's sad to see another human being feel that God would send an unborn child to Hell, when I, whom is a billion times less deserving of heaven gets to dwell in the place of the Lord for eternity when I die . . . but that baby by complete chance is sent to Hell . . .

I'm usually a pretty emotionless guy, but this upsets me nearly to tears . . . :cry:

redeemedbyhim
Jul 21st 2008, 11:07 PM
I don't believe for a single solitary second that God sends aborted babies to hell. Goodness, if I can't know that, how can I know anything about my Lord?
If someone called me up right now and said, "I think your husband just robbed the bank on Main Street", I would KNOW without a shadow of a doubt they were sorely mis-taken. Why? Because I KNOW MY HUSBAND of 38 years. Everything about his character tells me this is impossible.

Everything I know about God's character tells me it's impossible for our just, Holy, compassionate, loving, fair God and Savior to allow a baby to go to hell. :o

Revinius
Jul 22nd 2008, 07:49 AM
But your assuming He doesn't let babies go to heaven . . . more specifically abortion babies.

Let's see what makes more sense . . .

A baby who never has a chance to know Christ, never even had a chance to be born, yet still fully alive, with a soul will go to Hell because he/she did not accept Christ as their Saviour.

Why would that be? Why would God condemn the innocent?

God, who is all loving, who has given us all a second chance . . . takes that chance away from an unborn child just because their mother and/or father decided that miracle of God was something they didn't want? Does that sound like God?

Why would God send the boy or girl to Hell and yet that mother still has a chance to be saved?

God is a just God, a righteous God, a fair and Holy God.

Condemning an unborn child to Hell is unjust, unrighteous, unfair, and unholy . . .

Now believe what you will, but it's sad to see another human being feel that God would send an unborn child to Hell, when I, whom is a billion times less deserving of heaven gets to dwell in the place of the Lord for eternity when I die . . . but that baby by complete chance is sent to Hell . . .

I'm usually a pretty emotionless guy, but this upsets me nearly to tears . . . :cry:

How am i assuming anything when i urge people not to assume? The only thing i am assuming is Gods sovereignty. I dont ask questions that have no bearing on knowing the character of God or on my role in His plan. To ask questions like you have stated above is to put God into a box with assumptions of innocence which are not clear in scripture.

Just in case you didnt get the reiteration for the third time in this thread. I assume nothing, neither hell nor heaven for murdered babies because the Word is unclear. To assume either is to get into dangerous ground where man-made concepts that are alien to the Word may take more importance than what is given to us by the Lord.

dan
Jul 23rd 2008, 09:51 PM
Over 40 Million Dead Babies - Will Either Obama Or McCain Stop The American Abortion Holocaust?

...Has already laid the groundwork by assigning Supreme Court Justices that will stop Roe v Wade. McCain has said he'd continue that part of the job.

Also, although I can't site specific scripture, I believe that the Millennial Reign Of Christ will be for the prematurely dead to be given a second chance.

White Spider
Jul 24th 2008, 02:38 AM
I assume nothing, neither hell nor heaven for murdered babies because the Word is unclear.

If it is unclear, pray and read it again and again . . . and if neither Hell nor Heaven then where?

And if you simply don't have an opinion on the matter, don't give one. It would be like me telling a scientist I don't believe populating Mars is possible, but I don't believe it is impossible. What's the point of saying anything . . . there isn't!!!

[Maybe the sky is blue, maybe it's not] - [WHAT?] :rolleyes:

Revinius
Jul 24th 2008, 04:35 AM
If it is unclear, pray and read it again and again . . . and if neither Hell nor Heaven then where?

And if you simply don't have an opinion on the matter, don't give one. It would be like me telling a scientist I don't believe populating Mars is possible, but I don't believe it is impossible. What's the point of saying anything . . . there isn't!!!

[Maybe the sky is blue, maybe it's not] - [WHAT?] :rolleyes:

My urging is not to show that i have no opinion, its to show that we shouldnt make assumptions based on anything but scripture. If the scripture is not clear then we shouldnt claim to stand on a theological high-horse like we know the mind of God. THAT IS SIN!

White Spider
Jul 24th 2008, 05:00 PM
Job 8:2-3

How long will you say such things?
Your words are a blustering wind.

Does God pervert justice?
Does the Almighty pervert what is right?




. . . we shouldnt make assumptions based on anything but scripture . . .

And my assumption is based on scripture. Everything it says God is, and everything it says God isn't leads me to this logical truth that children and babies unable to know our Lord are sent to heaven. It's all based on scripture.

Theophilus
Jul 24th 2008, 05:12 PM
from the OP. Let's return to that, shall we?

If you really want to discuss further whether infants go to heaven, I recommend starting a new thread...or adding on to an existing one.

Okay?:)

Revinius
Jul 25th 2008, 04:26 AM
Job 8:2-3

How long will you say such things?
Your words are a blustering wind.

Does God pervert justice?
Does the Almighty pervert what is right?





And my assumption is based on scripture. Everything it says God is, and everything it says God isn't leads me to this logical truth that children and babies unable to know our Lord are sent to heaven. It's all based on scripture.

But you dont KNOW that. The psalm passage i referred to earlier made clear that even in the womb we are with sin. What about adults who arent elected? Anyway, lets get back to the OP.

White Spider
Jul 30th 2008, 01:01 AM
Over 40 Million Dead Babies - Will Either Obama Or McCain Stop The American Abortion Holocaust?

No, Obama will be elected and he certainly won't stop it . . . if McCain was elected he would have the ability to, but I doubt he would . . .

McCain's focus would be on winning the war for us and maintaining foreign relations. I'm sure he'd also put a lot into fixing the economy and through all that stuff restoring the GOP's name. Abortions though a talking point to get votes would not be on any Presidents priority list right now.

(I personally feel Obama will be elected, towards the end of his first term a major event will happen and with the global presence he has, and being in control of the strongest country he'll have a wonderful opportunity to be the first beast. Though I am certainly not saying he is. But he seems like a good candidate.)

The babies have no chance in this day and age.

(Revinius, ask yourself why God would leave my big brother Trevor's soul up to complete chance, he was still born . . . or any abortioned or miscarried babies soul. Does sending a child who lived all his days in the womb to Hell just because by unfortunate luck they were murdered or died by natural causes sound like the God you know?)

Revinius
Jul 30th 2008, 12:29 PM
(Revinius, ask yourself why God would leave my big brother Trevor's soul up to complete chance, he was still born . . . or any abortioned or miscarried babies soul. Does sending a child who lived all his days in the womb to Hell just because by unfortunate luck they were murdered or died by natural causes sound like the God you know?)

Please dont bring emotion into battle with rational discussion, it loses every time. ;)

For the 1 billionth odd time i will reiterate that my position on this is not for or against Hell for the unborn (or even the immediate post-born). I hold the position that scripture has not given us license to make that choice for God. As such, because scripture gives us mixed views on such a topic, we are not equiped to know Gods mind on it. To assume God's will is probably one of the most dangerous things we can do and could perhaps lead us down the road of sin.

What's with this 'chance' stuff your talk about? All is under His will and talk of fortune or chance is what the pagans believe. God leaves nothing to chance, and nothing is indeed random under Him. He pre-ordained everything that happens to happen before the beginning of time.

White Spider
Jul 30th 2008, 07:52 PM
What's with this 'chance' stuff your talk about? All is under His will and talk of fortune or chance is what the pagans believe. God leaves nothing to chance, and nothing is indeed random under Him. He pre-ordained everything that happens to happen before the beginning of time.

:o What are you talking about :crazy:

God pre-ordained nothing . . . :B NOTHING!

We have choice . . . everything we do is a choice, nothing is pre-destined . . .

You are the one with the pagan beliefs it seems. Before birth we are already chosen to end up in Heaven or Hell? :confused

We are not a simple computer program made and then used . . . He gave us free will . . .

God knows everything that will happen, but He did not make it that way. He allowed us to make the choice to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. He did not make it so we would . . . do you really think He sent Satan to deceive us? NO! He allowed Satan to deceive us.

We have choice every second.

With your reasoning . . . which is as wrong as sin itself . . . every time I commit a sin, I had no choice in it, I was always going to commit that sin, there is no point feeling sorry or asking forgiveness, GOD made me commit that sin, He pre-ordained me to do so. Why ask forgiveness from the Man who made me commit the sin? I am unholy because God decided so.

I could go on and on, but its hard to because it just sounds so ridiculous.

I mean it's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. God pre-ordained everything. :B

:mad: It sickens me that you can even think that. We are not puppets . . . we are not a game . . . we have CHOICE!

Life is much easier when you think it's pre-destined as then you need take no responsibility for anything you ever do.

But you have responsibility for everything you do and God will judge you on the choices you make . . . the choices you make . . . not the choices He made.

:B :cry: :mad: :help: :sad:

White Spider
Jul 30th 2008, 07:57 PM
Please dont bring emotion into battle with rational discussion, it loses every time. ;)

Well perhaps that's your problem, no emotion.

God has emotion, He LOVES us all more than we can even imagine . . . think of the person you love the most and multiply that by inifiniti now send one of them to Hell because they died before birth. That's not Love!

Now if you give a child several opportunities to do the right thing and they don't you punish them, even though you love them, that's what God does by sending people to Hell.

You do not tell a kid to not eat a cookie then spank him before he has the chance to take the cookie.

Now I know you say you don't think they got to Hell, but you won't say they go to Heaven, so if not Heaven it must be Hell.

Theophilus
Jul 30th 2008, 08:09 PM
Peace and love, people. Read that post over a few times and count to ten.

Abortion is a hot topic, as are the many other subtopics that spring out of it...and I realize emotions run high.

However, we have the ability (and dare I say duty?) to "speak" softly, even in the grip of emotion.

Consider this a warning, everyone.

Be passionate, by all means...but don't get personal.

Got it? Good...I knew you would. :)

Revinius
Jul 31st 2008, 02:49 PM
:o What are you talking about :crazy:

God pre-ordained nothing . . . :B NOTHING!

Read your Bible.
Ephesians 1:3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

Once again your reasoning needs basis.... Please take the Word on board. Election does not mean no free will - the two co-exist in perfect duality, (just like the trinity which is another such mystery).


Well perhaps that's your problem, no emotion.

You know nothing of me so i would feel it inappropriate for you to make the call you do in accusing me of lacking it.


think of the person you love the most and multiply that by inifiniti now send one of them to Hell because they died before birth. That's not Love!

Now if you give a child several opportunities to do the right thing and they don't you punish them, even though you love them, that's what God does by sending people to Hell.

You do not tell a kid to not eat a cookie then spank him before he has the chance to take the cookie.

Emotion has little place in a discussion on murder or death as emotion and the Word often conflict, pre-fall this wouldnt be the case but the sin screws with us.

All have fallen short of the glory of God, and the clay is in no position to dictate the actions of the potter and WE should well remember that.

Revinius
Jul 31st 2008, 02:51 PM
Peace and love, people. Read that post over a few times and count to ten.

Abortion is a hot topic, as are the many other subtopics that spring out of it...and I realize emotions run high.

However, we have the ability (and dare I say duty?) to "speak" softly, even in the grip of emotion.

Consider this a warning, everyone.

Be passionate, by all means...but don't get personal.

Got it? Good...I knew you would. :)

No probs mate, got a cool head on this side. Spider and i will try to find truth together. :)

White Spider
Jul 31st 2008, 07:50 PM
Pre-destined and free will do not coincide together.

It is logically impossible.

I did not remember that verse you gave and it will take some looking into on my part, but a pre-destined world and a world of free choice is not possible.

If God chose me to be in Him before the world, I never really had a choice, I was always going to follow Him. Which seems to take away my free will of serving Him. It's really no longer serving him, but simply doing what I was made to do. Like a computer program.

I do have choice, I know that, but whatever choice I make I was always going to make, which means I never really had the choice in the first place. I only thought I had the choice. Which is quite confusing. Which is why I can not believe in Pre-destined lives.

White Spider
Jul 31st 2008, 08:09 PM
Read your Bible.
Ephesians 1:3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ

He pre-destined us to be adopted through Christ. He knew sin would enter the world and that He would need to sen a way for us to be saved. Jesus Christ.

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan . . . who were the first to hope in Christ . . .

We who believe in Christ are pre-destined for inheriting the kingdom of God.


It's like saying someone who gets shot is pre-destined to feel pain.

Again, God knows everything that will happen, but He did not sit down and make it happen this way.

Revinius
Aug 1st 2008, 05:02 AM
Pre-destined and free will do not coincide together.

It is logically impossible.

I did not remember that verse you gave and it will take some looking into on my part, but a pre-destined world and a world of free choice is not possible.

If God chose me to be in Him before the world, I never really had a choice, I was always going to follow Him. Which seems to take away my free will of serving Him. It's really no longer serving him, but simply doing what I was made to do. Like a computer program.

I do have choice, I know that, but whatever choice I make I was always going to make, which means I never really had the choice in the first place. I only thought I had the choice. Which is quite confusing. Which is why I can not believe in Pre-destined lives.

Prolly best to start a new thread on this if you wish. You have highlighted a mystery of God - That he can be both completely sovereign and all-knowing in His election yet allow His creations some sort of will. God is beyond reason and logic since he created it so i dont see a problem in regards to soveriegnty and will.


In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ

He pre-destined us to be adopted through Christ. He knew sin would enter the world and that He would need to sen a way for us to be saved. Jesus Christ.

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan . . . who were the first to hope in Christ . . .

We who believe in Christ are pre-destined for inheriting the kingdom of God.


It's like saying someone who gets shot is pre-destined to feel pain.

Again, God knows everything that will happen, but He did not sit down and make it happen this way.

Ok on one hand your removing sovereignty from Gods hands by claiming that he does not elect people, which is quite plainly spoken of. You get onto dangerous ground when you try to rationalise taking power from God and transfering it, like on a sliding scale, to humanity. The election he speaks of is not reward but of the gift of salvation as is clearly spoken of elsewhere in scripture.

Ephesisians 1:11 - In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will


I dont see how this can be seen any other way than what i have detailed.

Romans 8:28-30 - And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.


Same again...

Anyway, enough of this minefield, if you wanna talk further make another thread and i will be happy to talk further. Otherwise the mods may get angry and start bashing us with the infringement stick. :rolleyes:

White Spider
Aug 1st 2008, 10:28 PM
Will do . . . I was actually pondering this myself a couple weeks ago and thinking of starting a thread on it. I guess this is God's way of telling me I really should.

Look for it in the Contro section under God's Choice or My Choice in a little while.

Vhayes
Aug 1st 2008, 11:07 PM
No, Obama will be elected and he certainly won't stop it . . . if McCain was elected he would have the ability to, but I doubt he would . . .

What makes you think McCain would have the ability to stop abortion?

White Spider
Aug 1st 2008, 11:13 PM
What makes you think McCain would have the ability to stop abortion?

As President of the United States anyone could get it done if they wanted to.

And let me clarify that by stop I mean make illegal, no one can stop sin! But a law could be passed and abortion could be made illegal if McCain wanted to make it so.

But as I said, he won't . . .

Vhayes
Aug 2nd 2008, 02:50 AM
As President of the United States anyone could get it done if they wanted to.

And let me clarify that by stop I mean make illegal, no one can stop sin! But a law could be passed and abortion could be made illegal if McCain wanted to make it so.

But as I said, he won't . . .

I'm not trying to be belittling or harsh or anything else, but do you know how the US government works?

I refer you back to post 2 of this thread. Perhaps this poster can point you to the detailed post that explains the reasons why a President cannot make laws.

White Spider
Aug 2nd 2008, 06:31 AM
I'm not trying to be belittling or harsh or anything else, but do you know how the US government works?

Yes, I do.

Do you?

If the President wanted to get a law passed he could. He may not make the law, but he can set all the wheels in motion.

Being President is like having a box of legos, where the legos are the country.

You can do whatever you want with the legos, though you are restricted to the pieces available, and the connect-ability of the pieces, but if you really want to make something you can do it.

Most people just aren't willing to put the time and effort in to doing the right thing when the wrong thing is so much easier.

Welcome to the game of Politics and the American system.

(In Roman times the "sewer" was known as the system, how fitting)

nato
Aug 2nd 2008, 03:59 PM
Neither president would have the power to do so, let alone the will. Even if he did hint at congress, and have a bill introduced and passed in the house and senate (which in itself is highly unlikely), there's the matter of a Supreme Court which gets much influence from precedents set in previous cases. There is a long way to go if this ever gets changed.

Otherwise abortion would have been banned 7 years ago.

White Spider
Aug 2nd 2008, 05:31 PM
Neither president would have the power to do so, let alone the will. Even if he did hint at congress, and have a bill introduced and passed in the house and senate (which in itself is highly unlikely), there's the matter of a Supreme Court which gets much influence from precedents set in previous cases. There is a long way to go if this ever gets changed.

Otherwise abortion would have been banned 7 years ago.

Yes, I agree the road is a difficult one, but it could be done if McCain wanted to do so.

Though as you said, neither have the will to do so.

And as I've said, McCain will be worrying about other things: War, Economy, Foreign Relations, etc.

Abortions is just a campaign talking point . . .