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Joe King
Jun 10th 2008, 02:04 AM
I know this has been done before, but really how can we prepare for the end times? I can see that the vast majority of the board is looking for the signs and we are getting them. What can we do? Have you taken any precautions?

Stock up on food? Move elsewhere?

theleast
Jun 10th 2008, 03:37 AM
Follow Christs 2 commandments.

That is the best preperation you could have for God knows what you have need of more than you do.

Joe King
Jun 10th 2008, 03:41 AM
Follow Christs 2 commandments.

That is the best preperation you could have for God knows what you have need of more than you do.


What about keeping watch?:B

wombat
Jun 10th 2008, 04:56 AM
I know this has been done before, but really how can we prepare for the end times? I can see that the vast majority of the board is looking for the signs and we are getting them. What can we do? Have you taken any precautions? Stock up on food? Move elsewhere?
Hi, Joe King! I've considered this question a lot, as I see the signs increasing for Christ's return. I have a few thoughts to share. First, while we are not to worry about anything, but pray about everything, I think that God would also not have us be neglectful of preparation. We live in a world where an earthquake or a flood or a tornado or a hurricane or a terrorist could strike, and I believe we should make preparations for just such emergencies. Like the Boy Scout motto, "Always be prepared." That doesn't mean I think we should horde food or become hermits in the mountains, just that we should take wise precautions--keep emergency kits with things we could use in case we're in some trouble.

Secondly, I believe that God moves us where He wants us to be when we are willing to follow His lead. Every day I pray that God will protect my family from harm, put His angels around us and His hand upon us, and to give us wisdom to hear His voice telling us where to go in present and in future. We currently are asking Him for wisdom as to whether we should stay in the home we love that has an incredible vegetable garden for good food if there is a worsening of the food crisis (as we suspect there will be), or if we should move to a place that is closer to work because of the gasoline crisis. I believe that God grants answers and wisdom to those who ask Him.

Thirdly, I know that there will be persecutions of believers in Jesus that will be terrible in the days to come, according to Jesus' words in Mark 13:9-13. Personally, I feel that all of us should tighten our bonds with our brothers and sisters in Christ, because all of us are going to need each other's support and encouragement in the terrible days to come. We can certainly be a comfort to each other, and we can encourage each other to be strong in our stand for the Lord even when we face possible death for Him. Perhaps too, those of us who have not yet faced physical persecution in our particular countries, should listen carefully to those who have faced constant persecution in their particular countries, and learn from their advice and examples--perhaps they can teach us some things about how to prepare.

Obviously, the most important thing we need to do is pray, pray, and pray some more. As we draw close to God in prayer, I believe He will supply us with wisdom to understand what He wants us to do, where He wants us to go, what He wants us to say. I believe He will give us courage to face what is coming and to stand for Him. And I believe He will make incredible miracles happen for us.

Lastly, one thing I am doing to prepare is in regards to my family members who are not yet saved--those I am hoping will make a decision to serve Jesus before it is too late. I have prepared a resource center in my home, for those of my family and friends (or even someone I don't know) to look at if one day I suddenly disappear into thin air because of the Rapture. In this resource center, I've kept a journal of things I'd like to tell them, some notebooks in which I've kept news articles relating to Bible prophecy, several Bibles, lots of books about Bible prophecy and what to expect in the world of the Tribulation period, books that provide evidence of God's reality (including those regarding the creation/evolution debate), and a timeline I created using the Scriptures of prophecy that I placed in an Excel file (this things is huge!) to show what I understand the Bible indicates will happen. I am praying every day that God will use this to help bring my loved ones to Him that don't know Him yet. That doesn't mean I'm not also witnessing in other ways to them during the time I am here, but it feels good to have something I can leave here for them that may just make a lasting impression on them during scary times.

Mograce2U
Jun 10th 2008, 05:03 AM
If your hope is heaven then you are prepared. What can anyone do to you? You already know you are going to die, how have you prepared for that? How you die makes little difference, that you will live is what counts. So forget about what may lie ahead in this world and live for the Lord! Which is what we are expected to do come what may.

Samir
Jun 10th 2008, 05:14 AM
I believe we as Christians DO need to prepare at every level, every aspects of our lives from food at home to politics in the holy land. That is why I am part of a group whose sole purpose is to prepare for the endtimes. What kinds of things: strategy, communications, etc.

If you would like more information send me a private message.

thanks
Samir

Joe King
Jun 10th 2008, 05:51 AM
I'm all for trusting and obeying God but by reading the scriptures, I feel as if he is telling us to prepare! Are you going to wait for the anti-Christ's troops to herd you up like cattle and then you will pray and just wait to be delivered?? I don't plan on that.

I also feel that if I prepare now, I will be able to help more people when things go down. Isn't that what we are supposed to do???

Do you need more signs before you really believe the end times are here??

Joe King
Jun 10th 2008, 06:00 AM
Hi, Joe King! I've considered this question a lot, as I see the signs increasing for Christ's return. I have a few thoughts to share. First, while we are not to worry about anything, but pray about everything, I think that God would also not have us be neglectful of preparation. We live in a world where an earthquake or a flood or a tornado or a hurricane or a terrorist could strike, and I believe we should make preparations for just such emergencies. Like the Boy Scout motto, "Always be prepared." That doesn't mean I think we should horde food or become hermits in the mountains, just that we should take wise precautions--keep emergency kits with things we could use in case we're in some trouble.

Secondly, I believe that God moves us where He wants us to be when we are willing to follow His lead. Every day I pray that God will protect my family from harm, put His angels around us and His hand upon us, and to give us wisdom to hear His voice telling us where to go in present and in future. We currently are asking Him for wisdom as to whether we should stay in the home we love that has an incredible vegetable garden for good food if there is a worsening of the food crisis (as we suspect there will be), or if we should move to a place that is closer to work because of the gasoline crisis. I believe that God grants answers and wisdom to those who ask Him.

Thirdly, I know that there will be persecutions of believers in Jesus that will be terrible in the days to come, according to Jesus' words in Mark 13:9-13. Personally, I feel that all of us should tighten our bonds with our brothers and sisters in Christ, because all of us are going to need each other's support and encouragement in the terrible days to come. We can certainly be a comfort to each other, and we can encourage each other to be strong in our stand for the Lord even when we face possible death for Him. Perhaps too, those of us who have not yet faced physical persecution in our particular countries, should listen carefully to those who have faced constant persecution in their particular countries, and learn from their advice and examples--perhaps they can teach us some things about how to prepare.

Obviously, the most important thing we need to do is pray, pray, and pray some more. As we draw close to God in prayer, I believe He will supply us with wisdom to understand what He wants us to do, where He wants us to go, what He wants us to say. I believe He will give us courage to face what is coming and to stand for Him. And I believe He will make incredible miracles happen for us.

Lastly, one thing I am doing to prepare is in regards to my family members who are not yet saved--those I am hoping will make a decision to serve Jesus before it is too late. I have prepared a resource center in my home, for those of my family and friends (or even someone I don't know) to look at if one day I suddenly disappear into thin air because of the Rapture. In this resource center, I've kept a journal of things I'd like to tell them, some notebooks in which I've kept news articles relating to Bible prophecy, several Bibles, lots of books about Bible prophecy and what to expect in the world of the Tribulation period, books that provide evidence of God's reality (including those regarding the creation/evolution debate), and a timeline I created using the Scriptures of prophecy that I placed in an Excel file (this things is huge!) to show what I understand the Bible indicates will happen. I am praying every day that God will use this to help bring my loved ones to Him that don't know Him yet. That doesn't mean I'm not also witnessing in other ways to them during the time I am here, but it feels good to have something I can leave here for them that may just make a lasting impression on them during scary times.


You know what's crazy wombat? I feel like I'm drawn to move to Jerusalem.:eek::eek::eek:

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 10th 2008, 09:44 AM
I know this has been done before, but really how can we prepare for the end times? I can see that the vast majority of the board is looking for the signs and we are getting them. What can we do? Have you taken any precautions?

Stock up on food? Move elsewhere?




Hi Joe, we moved from the city to the country some 12 years ago 380 metres above sea level and 750 miles away and built a house that uses a wood cooking stove that also heats our hot water service and we also use wood to heat the house.

It’s only a small farm of 81 acres and there are springs that provide 3’500 000 gallons of water per year.
We built a ram pump that works from the springs by water flow power which now completed, will pump water up 65 FT to a 5000 gallon above ground concrete tank providing water to a glasshouse that is built around a stone wall which radiates warmth on cold nights.

The dams have mountain trout for a protein food source.
The water system to the farmhouse is a gravity system.

We use rainwater with an underground concrete water tank of 10’500 gallons but we can fall back on the spring water system if needed.
When we first arrived we planted Hazel, Walnut and many types of fruit trees for them to mature.

The soil is good and we are waiting for our three sons to come here from the city when Daniel 8 kicks in and that is only a short time away.

I have sent CD’s from Charles Wheeling IBE books of Alabama to a few people over the years along with my own studies to all my family and not only my sons but to my three brothers also which they make copies and give to other friends and so it goes.

My family are watching and are working for funds to make sure that our local government taxes are prepaid so we can be debt free and self sufficient so that we won’t be in an awkward position when God’s people can’t buy or sell.

Joe, we knew about the energy crisis over twenty years ago and also that earthquakes were coming and that is why were moved up here away from the coast.
We understood that water would not be so abundant in the future and made preparations for that event by seeking reliable water supplies and a fertile basalt soil.

A few laughed when we said we were moving and the reasons for doing so.
It was hard work building a house to on those snowy days.
Everyday we prayed for strength to keep going and the 27000 brick pile gradually got smaller.
It was hard living in a caravan for two years it got so cold at times.

I came back early to the finished farmhouse one afternoon and found my wife crying pitifully missing our sons.
It weighs heavily on her dear sweet heart but when I said we will move back my three sons said no dad we are coming down soon. You know Joe, sometimes we almost gave up. My wife decided that we had to see this through, the choice was hers to make freely and without any pressure from me.

It is not easy taking that first big step in faith but studying prophecy for over 30 years and seeing the pages of Daniel slowly turning is very sobering indeed and so we will be making that phone call soon to our family telling them to come.

It does not take a lot of money to set it up and we do not have much of that stuff, but we are blessed with the gift of faith and act on it.

We have responded through our understanding of prophecy, and utilize our God given intelligence to carry out what is necessary for others we dearly love and for the times in which we all live.
I don’t care for myself Joe, but I love my wonderful wife and my dear sons and 3 brothers very much and just want to do all I can with God’s good help for them.

He has blessed us richly and we want to be of help to those whom we love so very much.
To sit back and do nothing was not an option as far as we were concerned.
It would have been a travesty, a monumental disregard of our understanding of scripture, which we do not take lightly.
Noah worked whilst others drifted around not realizing the perilous times in which they were heading.

Your brother in Jesus PC.:hug:

DurbanDude
Jun 10th 2008, 10:19 AM
Hi Prophecy Countdown,

I respect what you doing , and here in South Africa we have ample opportunity to do the same , with the cheap outlying farmlands.

Maybe I will do the same closer to the time, but my personal belief is that the real persecution will only last for 3.5 years. I dont mind dying if my family only has to last a year or two before we are re-united at the resurrection, or maybe die with me. The major importance is if their souls are kept safe during this time ,most of the biblical warnings are about this spiritual preparation (parable of the virgins).

I am a believer in additional revelation outside the bible , the gift of prophecy is still around. In this regard I have heard a number of prophecies saying that Southern Africa will be a relatively safe haven at the end , with more chance of survival , and many Christians from around the world will come here for refuge at the end. Will wait and see.

theleast
Jun 10th 2008, 12:07 PM
By following Christs 2 commandments you ARE keeping watch.

If you do those two things God will lead you to do all the right things at the right times, and to the right places.

wombat
Jun 10th 2008, 01:28 PM
You know what's crazy wombat? I feel like I'm drawn to move to Jerusalem.:eek::eek::eek:
Wow, Joe King! While that may seem like the least safest place to move that anyone could possibly choose, perhaps there is a reason that God is placing this on your heart. Pray deeply about this. God will grant you an answer.

wombat
Jun 10th 2008, 01:33 PM
we moved from the city to the country some 12 years ago 380 metres above sea level and 750 miles away and built a house that uses a wood cooking stove that also heats our hot water service and we also use wood to heat the house.The dams have mountain trout for a protein food source.
The water system to the farmhouse is a gravity system. When we first arrived we planted Hazel, Walnut and many types of fruit trees for them to mature. The soil is good and we are waiting for our three sons to come here from the city when Daniel 8 kicks in and that is only a short time away. Noah worked whilst others drifted around not realizing the perilous times in which they were heading.
I applaud you, Prophecy Countdown! What faith you've shown in believing God's prophetic word and working to provide for your family in the dangerous times to come! May He protect all of you and supply you with all your needs.

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 10th 2008, 01:59 PM
Hi Prophecy Countdown,

I respect what you doing , and here in South Africa we have ample opportunity to do the same , with the cheap outlying farmlands.

Maybe I will do the same closer to the time, but my personal belief is that the real persecution will only last for 3.5 years. I dont mind dying if my family only has to last a year or two before we are re-united at the resurrection, or maybe die with me. The major importance is if their souls are kept safe during this time ,most of the biblical warnings are about this spiritual preparation (parable of the virgins).

I am a believer in additional revelation outside the bible , the gift of prophecy is still around. In this regard I have heard a number of prophecies saying that Southern Africa will be a relatively safe haven at the end , with more chance of survival , and many Christians from around the world will come here for refuge at the end. Will wait and see.


Hi Durban, I agree that the last period of three and a part years being Daniel 12: 12. 1335 days will be the tribulation period in the second half of the 2300 evening morning period of Daniel 8: 14 which is six and a part years.
But I do believe that the rough goat will attack the ram before this President leaves office and many don’t realize how close this is to the start of the 2300 ereb/evening boqer/morning period countdown.
We can never prepare early enough spiritually and with that in mind foremost move on in faith with actions to support our physical well-being.

There is one concern that I have Durban and that is if a person lives in the city and he can’t buy or sell unless he accepts the mark of the beast they will turn his water off and his electricity, so that his house will become a nightmare.
This is just the start of things to come but people are relaxed about it, but for my family, I can’t be.
Dear Durban, you seem able to move quickly. The US President will attack the higher horn on the ram.
I could go into detail but I have done that before describing Daniel.

One other thing, death is oblivion, however it’s the road to death that concerns me we are weak so we need to take ourselves out of harms way because I do not want to let my Lord down in betrayal and I don’t want evil people near my family because that is my weak point.
I hope you can understand where I’m coming from Durban.
Also if you check the first pouring of the early rain in Joel 2: 23 which was given to Zion and only ‘moderately.’

Joel 2: 28, speaks of the latter rain which will be given abundantly to all flesh so yes we will witness for the Lord when the counterfeit turns up.

Your servant in Jesus, PC.:hug:

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 10th 2008, 02:39 PM
I applaud you, Prophecy Countdown! What faith you've shown in believing God's prophetic word and working to provide for your family in the dangerous times to come! May He protect all of you and supply you with all your needs.

Hello Wombat, thank you for your kind words and may our dear Lord protect you and bless all those dearest to you during these times and at the wedding supper.
It is so refreshing to meet a like-minded person as your good self in these times of confusion where we should have our minds fixed clearly on prophetic events that will soon transpire in rapid succession.
Dear Wombat, you have given me a real lift for the day and regenerated my enthusiasm.


We owe our dear Lord so much and it is He that must take all the credit for what he enables us to do on His behalf.

Now I have to finish a brick composting unit tomorrow and then get into making a vermin proof chicken coup.



I must admit I can’t wait to get that ram pump cracking away it’s based on a real old idea but these pumps have been known to work for over fifty years and are cheap to make.



Well, I must hit the sack and get some rest.
Nice hearing from you Wombat, I am your servant in Jesus, PC:hug:

fewarechosen
Jun 10th 2008, 02:43 PM
keep watch on ourselves so sin does not creep in and we be decieved --god will deliver us from all evil if our heart is with him --he delivers us from evil not us
our preperation and watch is on our hearts

Joe King
Jun 10th 2008, 03:25 PM
Hi Joe, we moved from the city to the country some 12 years ago 380 metres above sea level and 750 miles away and built a house that uses a wood cooking stove that also heats our hot water service and we also use wood to heat the house.

It’s only a small farm of 81 acres and there are springs that provide 3’500 000 gallons of water per year.
We built a ram pump that works from the springs by water flow power which now completed, will pump water up 65 FT to a 5000 gallon above ground concrete tank providing water to a glasshouse that is built around a stone wall which radiates warmth on cold nights.

The dams have mountain trout for a protein food source.
The water system to the farmhouse is a gravity system.

We use rainwater with an underground concrete water tank of 10’500 gallons but we can fall back on the spring water system if needed.
When we first arrived we planted Hazel, Walnut and many types of fruit trees for them to mature.

The soil is good and we are waiting for our three sons to come here from the city when Daniel 8 kicks in and that is only a short time away.

I have sent CD’s from Charles Wheeling IBE books of Alabama to a few people over the years along with my own studies to all my family and not only my sons but to my three brothers also which they make copies and give to other friends and so it goes.

My family are watching and are working for funds to make sure that our local government taxes are prepaid so we can be debt free and self sufficient so that we won’t be in an awkward position when God’s people can’t buy or sell.

Joe, we knew about the energy crisis over twenty years ago and also that earthquakes were coming and that is why were moved up here away from the coast.
We understood that water would not be so abundant in the future and made preparations for that event by seeking reliable water supplies and a fertile basalt soil.

A few laughed when we said we were moving and the reasons for doing so.
It was hard work building a house to on those snowy days.
Everyday we prayed for strength to keep going and the 27000 brick pile gradually got smaller.
It was hard living in a caravan for two years it got so cold at times.

I came back early to the finished farmhouse one afternoon and found my wife crying pitifully missing our sons.
It weighs heavily on her dear sweet heart but when I said we will move back my three sons said no dad we are coming down soon. You know Joe, sometimes we almost gave up. My wife decided that we had to see this through, the choice was hers to make freely and without any pressure from me.

It is not easy taking that first big step in faith but studying prophecy for over 30 years and seeing the pages of Daniel slowly turning is very sobering indeed and so we will be making that phone call soon to our family telling them to come.

It does not take a lot of money to set it up and we do not have much of that stuff, but we are blessed with the gift of faith and act on it.

We have responded through our understanding of prophecy, and utilize our God given intelligence to carry out what is necessary for others we dearly love and for the times in which we all live.
I don’t care for myself Joe, but I love my wonderful wife and my dear sons and 3 brothers very much and just want to do all I can with God’s good help for them.

He has blessed us richly and we want to be of help to those whom we love so very much.
To sit back and do nothing was not an option as far as we were concerned.
It would have been a travesty, a monumental disregard of our understanding of scripture, which we do not take lightly.
Noah worked whilst others drifted around not realizing the perilous times in which they were heading.

Your brother in Jesus PC.:hug:

I admire you and your family's strength and faith! That is awesome! I feel like an outcast for even thinking about things like this but now I know that I'm not crazy! God Bless you and your family!

DanDMan64
Jun 10th 2008, 04:34 PM
Hey Joe King, I'm just gonna say this because I don't see anybody here bringing-it-up, it seems everybody so far believes we better hunker-down and prepare for the worst, but being a pre-tribulationist I think all this talk about moving to remote areas and storing food and the like is really much-a-do bout nothing.

We're the Bride of Christ, He's going to take us out of harms way before all the bad stuff happens, just like any good husband would do if he knew there was harm coming his bride's way. Our job as the Bride is to proclaim the gospel and live godly lives before God as much as we're able and trust Him to complete the good work He started in us, to perfect us for the day He will call us up from heaven to meet Him in the air.

I know many here will disagree with me, but that's OK since I know I belong to the majority view.

Anyway, I just thought I should put in my two pence for the pre-triber camp.:)

Joe King
Jun 10th 2008, 04:51 PM
Hey Joe King, I'm just gonna say this because I don't see anybody here bringing-it-up, it seems everybody so far believes we better hunker-down and prepare for the worst, but being a pre-tribulationist I think all this talk about moving to remote areas and storing food and the like is really much-a-do bout nothing.

We're the Bride of Christ, He's going to take us out of harms way before all the bad stuff happens, just like any good husband would do if he knew there was harm coming his bride's way. Our job as the Bride is to proclaim the gospel and live godly lives before God as much as we're able and trust Him to complete the good work He started in us, to perfect us for the day He will call us up from heaven to meet Him in the air.

I know many here will disagree with me, but that's OK since I know I belong to the majority view.

Anyway, I just thought I should put in my two pence for the pre-triber camp.:)


You may be right, but what if you are wrong?

DanDMan64
Jun 10th 2008, 05:45 PM
You may be right, but what if you are wrong?Well if I'm wrong, which I think is very unlikely, it would mean that either mid-tribers or post-tribers were right.

If that were the case then I believe even through the tribulation God will be able to provide miraculous protection for His beloved people, so even then I wouldn't worry.

However, I have often wondered about this scenario of having to go through the tribulation, based on the interpretation of scriptures as presented by both mid and post tribulationists, and I always end-up right back where I started, being reassured by The Spirit that the judgment is coming upon "The children of disobedience" and not "The Bride of Christ", of course that's just my view, as well as that of a great percentage of the evangelical community, I guess there's no sure way to know for sure until it all comes to pass, but in any event one thing is certain, God loves His children and He will take care of us no matter what, and those who believe that "God helps those who help themselves" don't understand that this doctrine is not scriptural, and that phrase is no where in The Bible. :cool:.

sunsetssplendor
Jun 10th 2008, 06:31 PM
Hey Joe King, I'm just gonna say this because I don't see anybody here bringing-it-up, it seems everybody so far believes we better hunker-down and prepare for the worst, but being a pre-tribulationist I think all this talk about moving to remote areas and storing food and the like is really much-a-do bout nothing.

We're the Bride of Christ, He's going to take us out of harms way before all the bad stuff happens, just like any good husband would do if he knew there was harm coming his bride's way. Our job as the Bride is to proclaim the gospel and live godly lives before God as much as we're able and trust Him to complete the good work He started in us, to perfect us for the day He will call us up from heaven to meet Him in the air.

I know many here will disagree with me, but that's OK since I know I belong to the majority view.

Anyway, I just thought I should put in my two pence for the pre-triber camp.:)


I agree. Perhaps we should be preparing for family members
that will be left behind???

Joe King
Jun 10th 2008, 07:29 PM
Well if I'm wrong, which I think is very unlikely, it would mean that either mid-tribers or post-tribers were right.

If that were the case then I believe even through the tribulation God will be able to provide miraculous protection for His beloved people, so even then I wouldn't worry.

However, I have often wondered about this scenario of having to go through the tribulation, based on the interpretation of scriptures as presented by both mid and post tribulationists, and I always end-up right back where I started, being reassured by The Spirit that the judgment is coming upon "The children of disobedience" and not "The Bride of Christ", of course that's just my view, as well as that of a great percentage of the evangelical community, I guess there's no sure way to know for sure until it all comes to pass, but in any event one thing is certain, God loves His children and He will take care of us no matter what, and those who believe that "God helps those who help themselves" don't understand that this doctrine is not scriptural, and that phrase is no where in The Bible. :cool:.


Well, I have been praying to be left behind so I can help others who don't know what is going on and why. That's why I'm asking, regardless, I'll be left behind.

wombat
Jun 10th 2008, 08:07 PM
Well, I have been praying to be left behind so I can help others who don't know what is going on and why. That's why I'm asking, regardless, I'll be left behind.
Joe King, this is a great example of the selflessness that I believe Jesus desires us to have! I don't think I've ever heard anyone make such a statement before. I'm not sure how to say this so that I don't sound like I'm working against you, because I admire how you feel about this, but I am going to pray that Jesus doesn't leave you behind (if it were even possible that He would leave a believer behind).

Whether one believes that the Rapture will happen before the 7-year tribulation period or in the middle of it, I believe there will be many witnesses to help point those who are "left behind" to the truth. For example, the two witnesses in Israel will be prophesying for the 1st half of the 7-year period (Revelation 11:1-12), and from the sounds of it, the whole world will be watching them, for when they are killed all nations are looking upon their bodies (possibly via TV?) and giving gifts in celebration (verses 7-10).

Also, there are the 144,000 Jewish witnesses who are sealed by Jesus and thereby protected from the judgments of the first half of the tribulation period (Revelation 7:1-8). If the Rapture is pre-trib, perhaps these Jewish men become believers in Jesus after the Rapture happens. I think the sudden disappearance of Christians all over the world will make many people realize they should have trusted in Jesus after all, perhaps leading to a surge in new believers.

And then there are the the three angels who will fly through the skies and shout to the world three messages (Revelation 14:6-12). The first angel proclaims the Good News to the entire world and warns them to fear God because the time has come when He will sit as judge. The second angel proclaims the fall of Mystery Babylon. The third angel shouts to the world that anyone who worships the beast and his statue or accepts his mark will come to a horrible end.

I believe the Lord will provide many witnesses to the world. We as believers are the witnesses for today, others will follow when we have disappeared. May you be blessed for your selfless attitude, Joe King!

DanDMan64
Jun 10th 2008, 08:27 PM
Well, I have been praying to be left behind so I can help others who don't know what is going on and why. That's why I'm asking, regardless, I'll be left behind.Joe, how can you be so sure you'll be left behind? have you received some kind of vision or angelic visitation where you were told that it was your calling to be a guide to the unbelievers during the tribulation? Have you been chosen as one of the 144,000? is your plan to live a sinful life on purpose just so Jesus will have no choice but to leave you behind?

I don't know brother, but I know it is possible for us to pray to God for things that are against His will, and I think this may be the case in your situation. Please don't get me wrong, I admire your love for the lost and unselfishness in wanting to endure the horrors of the tribulation to lead them to Christ, but I'm just saying only God knows whose job it will be and under what circumstances they will be given that job, and I don't think we get to choose or even volunteer for the job, that's up to Him to decide because He already preordained those people and prepared them to be able to endure, whether they know it or not. :saint:

immortality
Jun 10th 2008, 11:23 PM
I know this has been done before, but really how can we prepare for the end times? I can see that the vast majority of the board is looking for the signs and we are getting them. What can we do? Have you taken any precautions?

Stock up on food? Move elsewhere?

i haven't done any stocking up on food or anything like that. what i've done much more lately - and am trying to do more so everyday - is praying, reading scripture, trying to love god and others, exercising, and just generally trying to prepare both spiritually and physically.

i've also found myself doing intercessory prayer much more, and believe it is vital in these times right before the storm hits. praying for the salvation of my family is one of the top priorities on my list right now.

when the hard times come, i really do believe god will provide with food and shelter and such, however he may do it, so i am not worrying about this right now. i need to seek first the kingdom of heaven.

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 11th 2008, 01:14 AM
I admire you and your family's strength and faith! That is awesome! I feel like an outcast for even thinking about things like this but now I know that I'm not crazy! God Bless you and your family!


Hi Joe, Thankyou for your kind words but the admiration belongs to Jesus and I do not seek it for myself.
Also you are not crazy at all but show great wisdom in that you are becoming aware of the real situation we are entering.

Our decision to move was based on Daniel and Revelation along with many other OT and NT Prophets.
Let me show you something in short for a moment as to how I read the Bible and I will use capitals for emphasis purposes only.
I can explain things in detail verse by verse and pull it together but for the moment this is just a very short run through to wet you biblical appetite.

The angel Gabriel was told the make Daniel understand the vision.
He gets really close to Daniel to press home the point about the time of it and said the following.

Daniel 8: 17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND, O SON OF MAN: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.

In verse 20 & 21 we get names such as Iraq, Iran, & Greece.
Daniel 8: 20. The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

So I am told by many ‘that verse 21 represents Alexander the great.’
But I have verse 17 in mind and know that the Greek empire was way back in 331 – 146BC yet the angel Gabriel tells me the vision concerns the time of the end.

Daniel 8: 21. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

The word Grecia has a number 3120 from the word Yavan 3120, so lets have a look at that name Yavan and what nation/s it is referring to.

Gen 10: 3. And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
4. And THE SONS OF JAVAN; ELISHAH, and TARSHISH, KITTEM, and DODANIM.

5. BY THESE were the isles of the GENTILES DIVIDED IN THEIR LANDS; EVERY ONE AFTER HES TONGUE, AFTER THEIR FAMILIES, IN THEIR NATIONS.

Now let me show you this from another source.
Credits to THE EVERY DAY BIBLE DICTIONARY.
3120Yavan { yaw-vawn’}

probably from the same as 3196; TWOT - 855;

AV - Javan 7, Grecia 3, Greece 1; 11

GK - 3430 { ÷w:y:
Javan = “Ionia” or “Greece”
n pr m
1) a son of Japheth and grandson of Noah
n pr loc
2) Greece, Ionia, Ionians
2a) location of descendants of Javan

“Grecian. “Grec’cian, The term Grecian, Hellenist, denotes a Jew by birth or religion who spoke Greek.”
“It is used chiefly of foreign Jews and proselytes in contrast with the Hebrews speaking the vernacukar Hebrew or Aramaean.”
“Greeks was the term used for non-Jewish people”
“Greece, Greeks, Gre’cians.”
“The histories of Greece and Palestine are little connected with each other.”
“In Geneses. 10:2-5 Moses mentions the descendants of YAVAN as peopling the Isles of the Gentiles; and when the Hebrews came into contact with the Ionians of Asia Minor, and recognized them as the long-lost islanders OF THE WESTERN MIGRATION, it was natural that they should mark the similarity of sound between JAVAN Iones.”
“Accordingly the Old Testament word which is GRECIA in authorized Version GREECE, GREECS, etc., IS IN HEBREW JAVAN Dan. 8:21;”
‘THE EVERY DAY BIBLE DICTIONARY.’ (Formerly published as peloubet’s Bible Dictionary) Copyright 1925.,Inc, 1913by Holt, Rinehart and Winson 1967., Inc. Copyright 1971 by Zondervan Publishing House. Assigned to Zondervan Publishing House, Grand rapids Michigan.

So we have Javan 3120 from which we get Grecia 3120 from which we identify the Gentile nations of the Western migration. Now we are at the feet of iron and clay period on the metal empire time statue.

The rough goat that comes from the West is the USA/GB alliance and this US President will deal with Iran the higher horn that comes up last.

Daniel 8: 3. “Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was HIGHER than the other, and THE HIGHER CAME UP LAST.”

Now Iran the higher horn is pushing North South and West.
The horn on the rough goat breaks bringing an end to the Presidency term as he deals with Iran.

We will see the parting of the lion/GB and the Eagle/USA alliance causing the lion to lose his eagle’s wings and that starts 'the time of the end' period called the 2300 ereb/evening boqer/morning time span.


Daniel 7: 4. The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till THE WINGS thereof WERE PLUCKED, and it was lifted up from the earth, and MADE TO STAND upon the feet AS A MAN, and a MAN’S HEART was given to it.

That is where I stop because I am not going to tell you that the ‘Bear’ happens to be the symbol of Russia.
Please Joe don’t lose your momentum and don’ be lulled into a false sense of security, Jesus won’t get here until the seventh trumpet and that is at the end of the tribulation period of Daniel 12: 12. “Blessed is he that waiteth, and COMETH TO THE thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”

I could bring in the two witnesses that are killed by Satan after they witness for 1260 days and in Rev 11: being killed in the MIDDLE OF THE LAST WEEK AND RAISED 3 ½ DAYS LATER which is linked to Daniel 9: 27, and mention 1 Corinthians 15: 51- 58, but I won’t do that.
Dear Joe, I am not a dreamer or any different from you we are of a like mind and I am not crazy and neither are you dear brother.
Was Noah insane building a boat for 120 years? Yes, according to the majority.

The wise will understand and lead many to salvation.
Were the majority of ‘wise men’ and ‘astrologers’ so wise interpreting the dreams and visions of king Nebuchadnezzar?

Daniel 12: 10. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
The place of the daily is linked to the outer court in Rev 11: 2 which is only 1260 plus 3 ½ days until trumpet 7 in verse 15 is blown.
Daniel 8: 11 – 14 is about the place of the daily the word sacrifice is in italics meaning it was added.
Daniel 12: 11. And from the time that the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Just a reminder. Daniel 12: 12. “Blessed is he that waiteth, and COMETH TO THE thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”

I must stop now Joe, but if there is anything you want to know in a verse by verse detail of Daniel from me just ask and I will lay things out so that you will fully understand clearly why I am so concerned that we don’t seem to be alert to the TIME of the visions.


It is not a matter of one or the other but both, concerning faith or our actions; it is a reaction as a result of faith and understanding of prophecy.
A healthy combination of the spiritual and physical needs of others during the times we find ourselves which are not of our choosing or control but the Father’s only.


Now I am going to go down to that ram pump and try and start it up, I will let you know if it works.
Sorry to take up so much of your time dear brother.
Your servant in Jesus, PC:hug:

Joe King
Jun 11th 2008, 04:19 AM
PC, thanks so much again. Let me digest what you wrote and I'll get back to you but I really do want to thank you right away for your knowledge and time.

My heart's Desire
Jun 11th 2008, 04:48 AM
I won't be here to worry bout the antichrist either, but I'm thinking and almost know that things will get worse and worse before the rapture of the church. We are already seeing it. How long will it be before we can't afford gas to drive or energy to heat and cool our homes. I still remember 99 cent a gallon gas and probably less and sure others can too. It was always a crisis of some sort that raised the prices but after the crisis the price never came down. Why should we think it will now. Will probably go up and up!.
The more one spends on gas, the least we have for food. There have been times when I haven't a dime to pay bills but we've always eaten. Once we couldn't ourselves but others helped us. Well, if we all get in the same boat there will be less people to help. I have a decent job and my bills get paid, but for the first time while making a living, I am having trouble affording food. I mean if you don't have a job it would make sense that you could not afford food but we always did. Now with a job, food is becoming very expensive to buy!
I'm going to do what I've learned to do. Trust my heavenly Father for each day.

White Spider
Jun 11th 2008, 05:10 AM
I know this has been done before, but really how can we prepare for the end times? I can see that the vast majority of the board is looking for the signs and we are getting them. What can we do? Have you taken any precautions?

Stock up on food? Move elsewhere?

I was pretty into preparing a while back, still am:

My suggestions are:


Learn to feed yourself
Get an independent house (get into that a little bit more in a second)
Become invisible (I'll elaborate in a second)


By feeding yourself I mean learn to take care of a quarter to acre sized garden, something you can live off to a degree. Also learn to raise animals for food, chickens are simple and provide two foods. Though raising animals requires feeding them. If feeding is to complicated or takes to much away from your garden just learn to catch wild animals to eat. Don't be squeamish about things.

By independent house I mean energy independent, water independent etc. I would suggest solar panels or small wind turbines for this. Also move to electrical stoves and water heaters so you are not dependent on gas supplies. Also move somewhere you can drill your own well and get water from that. Mountainous non-populated areas are the best if your serious about this.

By invisible I mean, don't have an address, get your mail through a P.O. Box. Don't register to vote anymore. Don't be super active in society. Don't sign up to be member of different things. If you are really serious I would suggest no internet, no television, no phone line, etc. Also a house that is not obvious to planes that fly over.

---------------------------------

Now with all that said a place like that would not be somewhere to live right now, but more a place to move to if you felt the need. Though some of those steps can be taken now.

White Spider
Jun 11th 2008, 05:13 AM
I still remember 99 cent a gallon gas and probably less and sure others can too.

I was watching Die Hard the other day and Bruce Willis pulled into a gas station and the sign read 75 cents per gallon . . . I'm too young to remember that, but I saw that and my jaw dropped :lol:

White Spider
Jun 11th 2008, 05:36 AM
when the hard times come, i really do believe god will provide with food and shelter and such, however he may do it, so i am not worrying about this right now. i need to seek first the kingdom of heaven.

I don't think people should rely on God as much as they do . . . he's giving you time to prepare so prepare.

Let me tell a story that I heard after Katrina, it is not a true story but it's a powerful message that influences me to this day:

A large hurricane was headed for a town and firefighters and police officers and other volunteers went door to door and made calls suggesting all those in this town to evacuate as they would likely be the hardest hit.

Most left, but a few stayed. One man said he'd wait for God to save him.

As the first rains fell and the winds picked up the firefighters and the police made door to door rounds urging those who had stayed to now pack up to escape the storm and the flooding that was expected.

Almost everyone was gone, even the firefighters and police had moved out of town, but the man stayed again saying he'd wait for God to rescue him.

There was flooding throughout the town and a small boat of firefighters went to the man's house and told him to come with them, but the man refused and said God would save him from the disaster.

As the waters rose the man had to go to the second story of his home. This time due to the winds and rain a larger boat was sent and again the man refused the rescue attempt saying God would save him.

The waters continued to rise and he went up on his roof. A helicopter came by and and told the man this was the last attempt they could make as the winds would soon be to severe for boats or helicopters to reach him, but the man calmly replied God would save him.

As the worst of the storm hit the man drowned.

When he arrived in heaven he asked God why he had not saved him for being loyal and relying solely on God.

God replied, "I warned you twice of the coming storm, sent two boats and a helicopter to save you from the rising waters. What else did you expect me to do for you?"

The moral of the story can be applied to the End Times . . .

Don't expect a house to flower in front of you when you need shelter, or hamburgers to fall from heaven when you are hungry in the End Times :P but make preparations with what God's given you now.

haybark
Jun 11th 2008, 06:35 AM
I know this has been done before, but really how can we prepare for the end times? I can see that the vast majority of the board is looking for the signs and we are getting them. What can we do? Have you taken any precautions?

Stock up on food? Move elsewhere?

The only real answer is found in a life of whole hearted intimacy with the Lord. The Book of Joel gives us the prescription to the end time believers- A life style of whole hearted abandonment to Jesus conditioned and deepened by Prayer and fasting.

As an epilogue to His discourse of the signs of the times, Jesus said this in Lk 21-


Luke 21:29-36

29

And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30


When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31


So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32


Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33


Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34


And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35


For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36


Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

KJV

This is a solem warning to not to get caught unawares. This passage tells us plainly of the Lord's intention to let us understand the season of His coming. The elements that He names to be the distraction are the very same that plauge the church today- a drunkenness with the world, entertainments, pleasures, eating drinking (i.e. surfieting) and business. So much so that we care more for our own lives than the Lord's agenda to bring the consumation of all things in our lifetime. matter of fact, we scorn the very idea of it.

This is not only dangerous, but it is crushing to the heart of God. He crushed His Son to bring this day here: it should be our deepest longing- but it is our greatest dread.

As a cure for this delusion of reality, Jesus says to watch for the signs, and Pray always to be accounted worthy to escape these things and to stand before the Son of Man. Sounds like pre-trib talk doesn't it? It is far from it- It is God's mandate for the End Time Chruch, it's called the secret place of the most High.

I believe that Jesus had Psalms 91 in mind when He spoke these words in Lk. 21:36 to watch and pray. Consider these passages together:



Luke 21:36
36


Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


KJV


Ps 91:1-8
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2


I will say of the Lord , He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

3


Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.

4


He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

5


Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;

6


Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.

7


A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

8


Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

KJV

Though this passage has doubtless been a comfort to many generations, and peoples over time, I believe it was penned for it's full realization in our day. There have been many "days of the Lord" in history, but they all looked forward to the One day. Escaping these things that the Lord talked about in the early part of Lk. 21, and standing before the Son of Man is NOT being raptured. It is ministering before the Throne of Grace. God is the Author of all the end time calamity, and it is being in comunion with His heart that will condition us to know Him. This is the secret place, the place Isaiah told the people to "Hide in" for a moment till the indignation passed, the Place under the stairs Solomon told about in His Song that the Shulimite hid in. It's teh place of both provision and protection, the place of revelation where He directs your heart and life to escape calamities and dangers. Revelation that will lead you as He did Joseph and Mary from the dangers of Herod. He will be doing it again.

But we must begin to seek the Lord while He may be found, because surley in a flood of great waters we shall not reach Him. He did not day this in a mean spirit, He stated the facts. we must prepare before time. we must have a real history with God, and Have a softened heart that His been conditioned in His presence with Prayer and fasting. it deepens our whole hearted abanoned to Him, it accelerates our maturing in Him. We can not wait til the crisis to do these things, it will be too over whelming and feirce and will overcome us. We need steadied hearts that have been conditioned in The Lord's peace and grace. we need strong intimate connection with Him that can not be cultivated any other way than by spending quality, daily extended periods of Time with Jesus.

This is the Bibles answer to the crisis that is coming. And is here. Things have already begun in our world and nation. His judgments are in teh Land. Give all for a pursuit of His presence. Buy the Pearl of great price at all cost. there is little time.

grace and peace to you in your pursuit.

~Haybark

DurbanDude
Jun 11th 2008, 08:59 AM
Hi Durban, I agree that the last period of three and a part years being Daniel 12: 12. 1335 days will be the tribulation period in the second half of the 2300 evening morning period of Daniel 8: 14 which is six and a part years.
But I do believe that the rough goat will attack the ram before this President leaves office and many don’t realize how close this is to the start of the 2300 ereb/evening boqer/morning period countdown.
We can never prepare early enough spiritually and with that in mind foremost move on in faith with actions to support our physical well-being.

There is one concern that I have Durban and that is if a person lives in the city and he can’t buy or sell unless he accepts the mark of the beast they will turn his water off and his electricity, so that his house will become a nightmare.
This is just the start of things to come but people are relaxed about it, but for my family, I can’t be.
Dear Durban, you seem able to move quickly. The US President will attack the higher horn on the ram.
I could go into detail but I have done that before describing Daniel.

One other thing, death is oblivion, however it’s the road to death that concerns me we are weak so we need to take ourselves out of harms way because I do not want to let my Lord down in betrayal and I don’t want evil people near my family because that is my weak point.
I hope you can understand where I’m coming from Durban.
Also if you check the first pouring of the early rain in Joel 2: 23 which was given to Zion and only ‘moderately.’

Joel 2: 28, speaks of the latter rain which will be given abundantly to all flesh so yes we will witness for the Lord when the counterfeit turns up.

Your servant in Jesus, PC.:hug:

Your argument is convincing , why set ourselves up for early pressure/starvation / martyrdom when the mark of the beast is introduced? If we are independent of the system it will be easier to cope , I think I'll start looking for farmland!

And political events can move very quickly , I have been caught out in the past when relating end-times prophecy to the current political environment , because that environment changes rapidly. The borders of the world could be very different in a few years.

I may disagree with your doctrine concerning the US president and the Ram , but most of us do agree that the time is close , I personally am starting to draw closer to God after being lukewarm for years.

wombat
Jun 11th 2008, 01:24 PM
By invisible I mean, don't have an address, get your mail through a P.O. Box. Don't register to vote anymore. Don't be super active in society. Don't sign up to be member of different things. If you are really serious I would suggest no internet, no television, no phone line, etc. Also a house that is not obvious to planes that fly over.
On this same topic, there have been lots of investigative reports I've seen in the news lately about how people can be tracked by their cell phones. I have a feeling that one day, Christians will find it necessary to set aside many technological things, such as these cell phones. I remember way back when (when I was young) hearing that you could be watched through your own TV--I'm not a technology buff, so I couldn't explain how, but I bet some of you have also heard that and can explain it. Any other things we should have on our list of things to someday watch out for? What about our computers, the GPS systems we love to have in our cars, etc.?

White Spider
Jun 11th 2008, 01:59 PM
On this same topic, there have been lots of investigative reports I've seen in the news lately about how people can be tracked by their cell phones. I have a feeling that one day, Christians will find it necessary to set aside many technological things, such as these cell phones. I remember way back when (when I was young) hearing that you could be watched through your own TV--I'm not a technology buff, so I couldn't explain how, but I bet some of you have also heard that and can explain it. Any other things we should have on our list of things to someday watch out for? What about our computers, the GPS systems we love to have in our cars, etc.?

Yeah, definitely buy yourself a car pre 80s and actually pre 73 would be best. Pre 1973 cars don't need to be smogged so you can do whatever you want under the hood.

All cars post 1990 and most post 1980 have a GPS device in them and are trackable.

Cell phones are the first thing you want to toss when you feel the powers of evil rising as they are very easily tracked, unlike movies you don't need to be making a call to be tracked, as long as the phone is on it's trackable.

Watched through the TV, I don't think that's possible, but then the government does keep things from the public so maybe, but I feel that's mostly hype from the book 1984 where the thought police watched everyone through there own TVs.

Though I would get rid of the TV anyways at least don't have it hooked up to any outside circuits because they can track that to your house, same with internet. You can use your TV to watch movies and play video games if you want, but satellite and cable TV is just as good as having sign posts telling the government where you live. Same with the internet.

Other things to watch for are watches, some watches contain GPS like devices in them.

I know there are others but it's really early here in California and I'm drawing a blank.

teddyv
Jun 11th 2008, 03:17 PM
All cars post 1990 and most post 1980 have a GPS device in them and are trackable.

I don't think that is true, but feel free to prove me wrong from a credible website, preferably the manufacturer (in particular for anything in the '80's).

I know some post 2000 models from GM and maybe the other manufacturers have "black boxes" in them that record information usable in the instance of an accident. Also the GM On-Star system using satellite communication as well as probably cel.

Chondram
Jun 11th 2008, 04:25 PM
Does anyone have any thoughts about how the world (left behind) is going to explain millions of people (Christians) disappearing? Logically, you would think...that would change ALL that were left behind into Christians. But the world is going to get so depraved (no Christians praying left), that GOD pours out his wrath on all left.

Do you think the world governments are going to try to say space ships took out the Christians and why only Christians? OH, and won't ALL the children (under the age of accountability) also vanish?

Chondram
Jun 11th 2008, 04:31 PM
Watched through the TV, I don't think that's possible, but then the government does keep things from the public so maybe, but I feel that's mostly hype from the book 1984 where the thought police watched everyone through there own TVs.


About 12-15 years ago, in my cable bill, was a little notice saying per FCC rules, cox cable would not (can't remember the actual verbage), reverse view you through their cable company.

I wish SO BAD, I would have saved that little slip of paper in a safe place. Never got another one.

tango
Jun 11th 2008, 04:52 PM
I know this has been done before, but really how can we prepare for the end times? I can see that the vast majority of the board is looking for the signs and we are getting them. What can we do? Have you taken any precautions?

Stock up on food? Move elsewhere?

Before I came back to God I used to think about much the same thing. Not from the perspective of the end times in a Biblical sense, but from the perspective of how to survive a social and economic meltdown in the secular sense.

From a purely secular perspective it's pretty easy, in theory at least. From a Biblical perspective (i.e. defending against a Biblical-scale collapse) I don't think there's anything you can do yourself to escape it all.

You can hedge against currency collapse by stockpiling precious metals. In the event of a meltdown the government will probably seek to confiscate precious metals so you'd end up living illegally. In the event of a Biblical-scale meltdown you won't be able to buy or sell at all so whether your money is in paper banknotes, gold coins or bits and bytes on a computer chip isn't going to make the blindest bit of difference.

If you move away from the cities and buy land you can grow your own crops. In a secular meltdown you'll need to defend the crops against invading masses who don't have anything to eat. In a Biblical meltdown the plagues of locusts and the sun turning dark will mean there probably won't be much to eat anyway, and of course you won't be able to buy seeds, fertilizers, insecticides etc because you won't have the mark of the beast.

If you're happy to live a nomadic lifestyle you can stay on the move in areas that are less hostile and where you may be able to harvest wild plants in quantities large enough to survive. Because you don't own much, if anything, you're less likely to be bothered by roaming mobs looking to steal food. From a secular perspective it's not much of a life, and from a Biblical perspective it's unlikely there will be a whole lot of food available due to the plagues of locusts, the raining fire, the sun turning dark and so on.

For me thinking through how I might protect myself against an increasingly severe meltdown got me thinking about the book of Revelation, which in turn got me reading the Bible again. Now it seems to me that we might protect ourselves against a human-induced collapse through our own efforts, but when the events described in Revelation are upon us there's not a lot any of us are going to be able to do without some help from above. I think it was in 1 Kings 17 where Elijah had the widow make him a cake from her meagre supplies of flour and oil, and the supplies never ran out. I can't say for certain, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if God's chosen people are going to be blessed in a similar way to this when the time comes. In the meantime, watch and pray.

My heart's Desire
Jun 11th 2008, 05:07 PM
Luke 12:19-34

And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry."
20. But God said to him, "You fool! This very night your soul is required of you and now who will own what you have prepared?"
21. So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."
22. And He said to His disciples, For this reason I say to you, do not worry about your life, as to what you will eat; nor for your body, as to what you will put on.
25. And which of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life's span?
26. If then you cannot do even a very little thing, why do you worry about other matters?
29. And do not seek what you will eat and what you will drink, and do not keep worrying.
31. But seek His kingdom, and these things will be added to you. NASB

theleast
Jun 11th 2008, 05:11 PM
Don't you know there is already a place prepared for you in the wilderness?

Revelation 12:6 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+12:6&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+12&version=9)
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

For God knows what you have need of before you do. I can't believe I actually read somebody say we rely on God too much! This thread is making me very sad.

fewarechosen
Jun 11th 2008, 05:15 PM
22And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
23The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.
24Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?
25And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
27Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
29And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
30For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. 31But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

that is end time preperation --seek the kingdom of god
and all these things shall be added unto you

perfect love casteth out fear

he knows you will need food
he knows you will need shelter
and if you cannot do that which is least why give thought for the rest

i will tell you why --because our faith is not as it should

do we protect ourselves with bunkers and water --or does god protect us

DurbanDude
Jun 11th 2008, 05:17 PM
Does anyone have any thoughts about how the world (left behind) is going to explain millions of people (Christians) disappearing? Logically, you would think...that would change ALL that were left behind into Christians. But the world is going to get so depraved (no Christians praying left), that GOD pours out his wrath on all left.

Do you think the world governments are going to try to say space ships took out the Christians and why only Christians? OH, and won't ALL the children (under the age of accountability) also vanish?


Most of us don't believe in a pre-trib rapture. When we disappear into the clouds to meet Jesus will be that great day when the whole earth sees Jesus and hides in fear. Jesus will on that day set up His reign on earth , there won't be any confused people left behind , they will all know the truth and fear God's judgement. This is the post -trib rapture (including pre-wrath believers)

My heart's Desire
Jun 11th 2008, 05:34 PM
Does anyone have any thoughts about how the world (left behind) is going to explain millions of people (Christians) disappearing? Logically, you would think...that would change ALL that were left behind into Christians. But the world is going to get so depraved (no Christians praying left), that GOD pours out his wrath on all left.

Do you think the world governments are going to try to say space ships took out the Christians and why only Christians? OH, and won't ALL the children (under the age of accountability) also vanish?
At the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church I'm not so sure that many will notice as a whole unless you are near someone who disappears at the time. Of course after a bit when so many are missing others, sure the news will report it.
It's hard of course to imagine but Lord Jesus said will He find faith on the earth when He returns? We are warned of coming deception, false teachers, false everything! I'm thinking for example, in disasters when many die, they are buried, but do you notice them missing unless you are there? When your neighbors go to work, do you notice that they are no longer at home? When you are not at work, do you know who is there? See what I mean, kind of?
Maybe they will just say people are missing. Perhaps they will say, well in the disappearances there seems to be a pattern that most were known to be Christians, etc
People go missing every day, I'm sure.

haybark
Jun 11th 2008, 05:38 PM
Luke 12:19-34

And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry."
20. But God said to him, "You fool! This very night your soul is required of you and now who will own what you have prepared?"
21. So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."
22. And He said to His disciples, For this reason I say to you, do not worry about your life, as to what you will eat; nor for your body, as to what you will put on.
25. And which of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life's span?
26. If then you cannot do even a very little thing, why do you worry about other matters?
29. And do not seek what you will eat and what you will drink, and do not keep worrying.
31. But seek His kingdom, and these things will be added to you. NASB


Don't you know there is already a place prepared for you in the wilderness?

Revelation 12:6 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+12:6&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+12&version=9)
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

For God knows what you have need of before you do. I can't believe I actually read somebody say we rely on God too much! This thread is making me very sad.


22And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
23The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.
24Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?
25And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
27Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
28If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
29And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
30For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. 31But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

that is end time preperation --seek the kingdom of god
and all these things shall be added unto you

perfect love casteth out fear

he knows you will need food
he knows you will need shelter
and if you cannot do that which is least why give thought for the rest

i will tell you why --because our faith is not as it should

do we protect ourselves with bunkers and water --or does god protect us

this is the real. i don't know what the rest of our brothers & sister are talking about. what kingdom are you from? where is your source?

My heart's Desire
Jun 11th 2008, 05:44 PM
he knows you will need food
he knows you will need shelter
and if you cannot do that which is least why give thought for the rest

i will tell you why --because our faith is not as it should

do we protect ourselves with bunkers and water --or does god protect us
Just because our faith is not as it should be does that make God unfaithful? If he cares for the birds why should He not care for you!
Regardless, Proverbs tells us to not be sluggards. But God tells us to not worry about tomorrow for tomorrow has its own worries.
I don't believe He means for us to be unresponsible or lazy but not to worry about it. The Word tells us if we don't work, we don't eat.

My heart's Desire
Jun 11th 2008, 05:49 PM
Don't you know there is already a place prepared for you in the wilderness?

Revelation 12:6 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+12:6&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+12&version=9)
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

For God knows what you have need of before you do. I can't believe I actually read somebody say we rely on God too much! This thread is making me very sad.
I believe that is speaking of Israel, but anyway. I think we don't rely on God enough! Even if we don't admit it, I think we rely way too much on ourselves! I know I have in the past.
Example: How am I going to pay that? Oh wait, I get a check just in time, if I put in some overtime.
Not: God will supply my need.

protea
Jun 11th 2008, 06:39 PM
I have this tremendous urge to PRAY for family and friends who have not accepted Jesus as their Saviour yet. We all believe that the time is short before Jesus appears on the clouds and the signs suport this view. I am however not bothered with physical preparations because I believe that the Lord will take care of all His children by whatever means.

Chondram
Jun 11th 2008, 06:44 PM
Most of us don't believe in a pre-trib rapture. When we disappear into the clouds to meet Jesus will be that great day when the whole earth sees Jesus and hides in fear. Jesus will on that day set up His reign on earth , there won't be any confused people left behind , they will all know the truth and fear God's judgment. This is the post -trib rapture (including pre-wrath believers)


Ahhh...I was wondering why no one was talking about the rapture! I've been raised pre-trib rapture, but for the last several years, something in my spirit keeps telling me to prepare at home for rough times to come. I've been wondering (being a pre-tribber) if we weren't going to go through at least part of the trib before being taken out. Not just mid-trib, but maybe as far as the first 6 years...but before GODS wrath is poured out.

That would make sense if millions of people vanished and it wasn't really noticed much. Because we're all fighting for ourselves, hiding, staying locked up in our homes trying to protect what little food, water, shelter we might have.

I am SO SCARED of being around at the time anti-Christ forces people to take the Mark or be beheaded. I truly love the Lord with all my heart, but I'm so afraid I might break at that point...please tell me we will be gone before then!

DurbanDude
Jun 11th 2008, 07:24 PM
Ahhh...I was wondering why no one was talking about the rapture! I've been raised pre-trib rapture, but for the last several years, something in my spirit keeps telling me to prepare at home for rough times to come. I've been wondering (being a pre-tribber) if we weren't going to go through at least part of the trib before being taken out. Not just mid-trib, but maybe as far as the first 6 years...but before GODS wrath is poured out.

That would make sense if millions of people vanished and it wasn't really noticed much. Because we're all fighting for ourselves, hiding, staying locked up in our homes trying to protect what little food, water, shelter we might have.

I am SO SCARED of being around at the time anti-Christ forces people to take the Mark or be beheaded. I truly love the Lord with all my heart, but I'm so afraid I might break at that point...please tell me we will be gone before then!

I wish I could! But I truly believe we will go through the tribulation and be persecuted and martyred. Although many will still be alive when the resurrection occurs (the dead in Christ rise first , then we who are still alive will be resurrected.)

Some post-tribbers call themselves pre-wrath. In other words , we do not go through the final intense times of the Day of the Lord because we are with the Lord , while the major earthquake occurs and the huge hailstones rain down , fire and sulphur. We dodge only these final tribulations.

Joe King
Jun 11th 2008, 07:47 PM
I wish I could! But I truly believe we will go through the tribulation and be persecuted and martyred. Although many will still be alive when the resurrection occurs (the dead in Christ rise first , then we who are still alive will be resurrected.)

Some post-tribbers call themselves pre-wrath. In other words , we do not go through the final intense times of the Day of the Lord because we are with the Lord , while the major earthquake occurs and the huge hailstones rain down , fire and sulphur. We dodge only these final tribulations.


That makes the most sense to me

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 11th 2008, 08:32 PM
Hi Durban, I am fortunate that after many years of study I am still seeking and learning. I find the ‘Daniel manual’ as my friend calls it is a map-outline of that narrow pathway for the time of the end.

Daniel and Revelation are full of numbers and geographic locations and identities within the chezev/vision/s time limiting spans.


They are put there so that we can discern the pathway of truth.
Capitals for emphasis only
Certain numbers, concerning TIME SPANS are what I call ‘vision disciplines’ that we must work within when studying Daniel and Revelation and both must refer to and be in unison in every tiny detail.

I deal within the constraints from the book of Daniel and Revelation using OT & NT Prophets in minute detail and if an interpretation does not fit those discipline restraints, I start asking questions.

Those ‘vision disciplines’ were put there by God through Gabriel, to pinpoint certain events at certain locations and to within specific time spans and at certain times being at the ‘last end’ described in the chezev/vision/s.


Let me give you an example of why I do not hold to the Alexander the Great application to Daniel 8:
If I may I would like to insert the relevant verses for biblical verification.

Within the interpretation of the vision of Daniel 8: Daniel was told by Gabriel that the vision concerns ‘THE TIME OF THE END.’

Daniel 8: 16. And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, MAKE THIS man TO UNDERSTAND THE VISION.

To push the point about the TIME OF THE VISION Gabriel gets really close to Daniel and scares the living daylights out of him making that specific point.
So if we want to understand the vision then we must accept the time of it.

17. So HE CAME NEAR where I stood: and when he came, I AS AFRAID, and fell upon my face: but HE SAID UNTO ME, UNDERSTAND, O SON OF MAN: FOR THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.

18. Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

Daniel 8: 19. And he said, Behold, I WILL MAKE THEE KNOW WHAT SHALL BE IN THE LAST END of the indignation: for AT THE TIME APPOINTED THE END shall be.

The battle between the Greek and Medo Persian empires took place in 331BC.
So there is the first discrepancy from the ‘TIME OF THE END’ AND ‘LAST END’ stipulated by Gabriel.

We are told that the ram was standing by the river Ulai which is now called the Karun river located in Iran and that, that is where the ‘he goat’ that comes from the WEST without touching the ground meets the ram and defeats him.

Daniel 8: 2. And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is IN THE PROVINCE OF ELAM; and I saw in a vision, and I WAS BY THE RIVER OF ULAI.

Iraq has come up 1st Saddam is now dead and now we see Iran the higher horn come up with a leader that wants to wipe Israel off the planet. The Islam religion is a push religion and fundamentalists are pushing.

3. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, THERE STOOD BEFORE THE RIVER A RAM which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but ONE was HIGHER than the other, and THE HIGHER CAME UP LAST.
4. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

The second discrepancy.
Modern warfare can do the following, travel great distances from the West using aircraft and ships without touching the ground, which was impossible back during the Greek empire.

5. And as I was considering, behold, AN HE GOAT CAME FROM THE WEST ON THE WHOLE FACE OF THE EARTH, and TOUCHED NOT THE GROUND: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

6. And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. 7And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

The third discrepancy is the location factor from that of the vision’s.
The Greek Empire fought the Medo/Persians on the Arbella Plains over 1000 miles away from the stipulated Ulai river within the vision.

Three inconsistencies being the TIME factor and the geographical location stipulated in the vision, also Alexander had to travel on the ground and had to make contact with it, which is not within the description of not touching it whilst traveling over it.

I am not sure if you are familiar with the Metal Empire Time Statue of Daniel 2, I will assume that you are.
Another discrepancy is for those that insist that ‘the four beasts supposedly represent the four historic empires.’

Daniel 2: 31. Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. 32This image’s head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,

Daniel 2: 33. His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.


Daniel 2: 34. Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

In Daniel 2: 38 Nebuchadnezzar was told he was the head of gold on the statue. In verses 40 to 44 we end right down to the time of the feet of iron and clay.
In hindsight we can see that the brass section on the Metal Empire Time Span Statue represents the Greek empire of 331 – 146BC.

The lion, bear, leopard and ‘4th beast most terrible’ represent the TIME SPAN of the FEET OF IRON AND CLAY because whilst they are around God sets up His kingdom. In Daniel 7: 27.

Daniel 2: 41. And whereas thou SAWEST THE FEET and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, THE KINGDOM shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch AS THOU SAWEST THE IRON MIXED WITH MIRY CLAY. 42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

This is the key to the time factor concerning the four beasts in Daniel 7 that rise in verses 4 – 7 because in verse 27 it states that God sets up His kingdom so the claim that ‘these four beasts represent past empires’ won’t stand biblical scrutiny. God did not set up His kingdom during any of the past empires.

Daniel 2: 44. AND IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Please read where the four beasts rise up together in Daniel 7: 3 – 7.

Then please read where God, sets up His kingdom in Daniel 7: 27 at the time of these beasts.

Dear Durban, I agree with you on the pre-tribulation idea being unsound.

I respect your view that you do not agree with me in certain things but as I said I deal within minute biblical detail regarding the study of prophecy and I have stacks of biblical evidence that does not agree with the ‘pre-rapture’ idea
We are to be given into his hand for 3 ½ years and that period will end at the resurrection of life when the dead are raised and we that are alive are to join them in the clouds at trumpet seven.

Daniel 7: 21. I beheld, and the same horn made WAR WITH THE SAINTS, and PREVAILED AGAINST THEM; 22UNITIL THE ANCIENT OF DAYS CAME, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7: 25.And he shall speak great words against the most High, and SHALL WEAR OUT THE SAINTS of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and THEY SHALL BE GIVEN INTO HIS HAND UNTIL A TIME AND TIMES AND THE DIVIDING OF TIME.
26. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

The tribulation ends at trumpet seven where I Corinthians 15: 50 – 58 starts which is at the resurrection of life.
If we read Revelation we get more confirmation of our situation.

Rev 13: 7. And IT WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM TO MAKE WAR WITH THE SAINTS, and TO OVERCOME THEM: and POWER WAS GIVEN HIM OVER ALL KINDREDS, and tongues, and NATIONS.

8. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9. If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The Earth is not the kingdom of God it was given to Adam who lost it, but that is another subject.

John 18: 36. Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

There are patches of hope but like you I think we are in for a rough time for 42 months/ 1335 of Daniel 12: 12.

Rev 12: 14. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for A TIME, AND TIMES, and HALF A TIME, FROM THE FACE OF THE SERPANT.

15. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I also know that the little horn is Satan, but that’s another subject

However I respect that others have their views on things, all I can do is show my case and make sure that I can back them up biblically because we are running out of time as I see the pages of Daniel slowly turning. The Lord gave the former rain to Zion moderately see Joel 2: 23
I thank the Lord for the latter rain to come in Joel 2: 28 because this message aint goin nowhere fast.

Joel 2: 28. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT UPON ALL FLESH; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30And I will shew WONDERS IN THE HEAVENS and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31The SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, and THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD come. 32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Your servant in Jesus, PC.:hug:

wombat
Jun 11th 2008, 08:32 PM
Ahhh...I was wondering why no one was talking about the rapture! I've been raised pre-trib rapture, but for the last several years, something in my spirit keeps telling me to prepare at home for rough times to come. I am SO SCARED of being around at the time anti-Christ forces people to take the Mark or be beheaded. I truly love the Lord with all my heart, but I'm so afraid I might break at that point...please tell me we will be gone before then!
Hi, Chondram! Guess what? I am very scared too. Pain and torture and death (not actually the death itself, since I know where I'm going afterward, but the pain in the process of death) is something I really dread. My hope is that the pre-tribbers are right (and I grew up with pre-trib teaching too), but like you I also feel that there is a rough ride ahead for us. I started developing a timeline (mentioned earlier in the thread) that I could leave behind for my unsaved family or friends if the rapture should occur soon, and while constructing it, the things I've learned are making me lean more toward mid-trib rapture happening. I see so many excellent points to each of those two points of view, as well as some things that I still have to research and figure out.

My encouragement to you would be that I believe the Lord gives strength to those who are persecuted for His name's sake. If we are called to die for Him, I believe that He will give us the strength and courage and peace of mind that we need to get through it without breaking. The Holy Spirit is in us and will even tell us what to say to our persecutors. Mark 13:11 says, "But when you are arrested and stand trial, don't worry about what to say in your defense. Just say what God tells you to. Then it is not you who will be speaking, but the Holy Spirit."

There is a book I have read and that I keep in my "resource center" called "Jesus Freaks" by dcTalk and The Voice of the Martyrs. I highly recommend this book to all of you here who believe as I do that we just might be called to give our lives for Christ in the near future. It is filled with stories from the times of the apostles to modern days, stories from around the world, about individuals who have become martyrs for the Lord. I think the one thing that stands out to me in all of these stories is that Jesus provided peace for them to endure--often in quite amazing and miraculous ways.

Take courage, Chondram! Jesus won't abandon us, and I don't believe He will put us in any situation where He won't be there to guide us and give us peace to do what is asked for Him.

fewarechosen
Jun 11th 2008, 08:40 PM
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

that covers it

we go through the tribulation --but are spared the wrath

theleast
Jun 11th 2008, 09:35 PM
I wish I could! But I truly believe we will go through the tribulation and be persecuted and martyred. Although many will still be alive when the resurrection occurs (the dead in Christ rise first , then we who are still alive will be resurrected.)

Some post-tribbers call themselves pre-wrath. In other words , we do not go through the final intense times of the Day of the Lord because we are with the Lord , while the major earthquake occurs and the huge hailstones rain down , fire and sulphur. We dodge only these final tribulations.

Those raptured will not suffer the 7 vials.

theleast
Jun 11th 2008, 09:42 PM
Hi, Chondram! Guess what? I am very scared too. Pain and torture and death (not actually the death itself, since I know where I'm going afterward, but the pain in the process of death) is something I really dread. My hope is that the pre-tribbers are right (and I grew up with pre-trib teaching too), but like you I also feel that there is a rough ride ahead for us. I started developing a timeline (mentioned earlier in the thread) that I could leave behind for my unsaved family or friends if the rapture should occur soon, and while constructing it, the things I've learned are making me lean more toward mid-trib rapture happening. I see so many excellent points to each of those two points of view, as well as some things that I still have to research and figure out.

My encouragement to you would be that I believe the Lord gives strength to those who are persecuted for His name's sake. If we are called to die for Him, I believe that He will give us the strength and courage and peace of mind that we need to get through it without breaking. The Holy Spirit is in us and will even tell us what to say to our persecutors. Mark 13:11 says, "But when you are arrested and stand trial, don't worry about what to say in your defense. Just say what God tells you to. Then it is not you who will be speaking, but the Holy Spirit."

There is a book I have read and that I keep in my "resource center" called "Jesus Freaks" by dcTalk and The Voice of the Martyrs. I highly recommend this book to all of you here who believe as I do that we just might be called to give our lives for Christ in the near future. It is filled with stories from the times of the apostles to modern days, stories from around the world, about individuals who have become martyrs for the Lord. I think the one thing that stands out to me in all of these stories is that Jesus provided peace for them to endure--often in quite amazing and miraculous ways.

Take courage, Chondram! Jesus won't abandon us, and I don't believe He will put us in any situation where He won't be there to guide us and give us peace to do what is asked for Him.

Fear not the pain of death by those who can kill your flesh. But fear the wrath of the Living God who can condemn both body and soul to the torments of hell.

My heart's Desire
Jun 12th 2008, 12:44 AM
...please tell me we will be gone before then! I can almost say that we will! But I used to think it was a 7 yr. trib but it is 31/2 of the Great Trib. The 7 yr, period is the 70th week of Daniel. Regardless, things are already getting tough, I believe it will get tougher before the rapture. Of course, Lord Jesus can come back at any time for His Church without any signs.
Oh, as far as most being post trib...check out this poll. ;) http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=122542

White Spider
Jun 12th 2008, 01:41 AM
I don't think that is true, but feel free to prove me wrong from a credible website, preferably the manufacturer (in particular for anything in the '80's).

I know some post 2000 models from GM and maybe the other manufacturers have "black boxes" in them that record information usable in the instance of an accident. Also the GM On-Star system using satellite communication as well as probably cel.

GPS was invented in 1973 . . . Lo jack in the 80s . . . CPUs started being put in cars in the late 70s . . .

It's not difficult with billion dollar government technology to track people in cars post 1979.

Yeah there are devices now that are quick and easy, but there are ways to be tracked in most cars in the 80s with the proper technology.

So I repeat myself, if you don't want to be tracked, pre 1973 gas guzzling vehicles are the best, but in End Times I'd fix it so the engine would run of vegetable oil so you can make your own gas.

---------------------------------

Oh I forgot to mention if you want to drop off the grid a bit stop using credit cards, it allows for your habits to be studied. They'll know what you buy, what you like, what you need, etc.

Use cash and keep the transactions small, definitely under $10,000, but try to keep them under a few hundred. Never buy large quantities of odd things.

Use phones less often, write letters if possible, or use pay phones where possible.

Don't shop online!!!

White Spider
Jun 12th 2008, 01:45 AM
Does anyone have any thoughts about how the world (left behind) is going to explain millions of people (Christians) disappearing? Logically, you would think...that would change ALL that were left behind into Christians. But the world is going to get so depraved (no Christians praying left), that GOD pours out his wrath on all left.

Do you think the world governments are going to try to say space ships took out the Christians and why only Christians? OH, and won't ALL the children (under the age of accountability) also vanish?

They'll only have to explain us away if we actually disappear at the start of the tribulation . . . which is one problem I see with a pre-tribulation rapture . . . it doesn't seem to work for me . . .

White Spider
Jun 12th 2008, 01:57 AM
I feel no reason for anyone of God's children to fear the Great Tribulation, Christ was crucified, whipped before that, and more on the cross, he took on the pain of all the world's sins forever, I feel the least I can do is take the pain with a smile on my face knowing it's not even close to a millionth of a percentile near what Christ must have felt for me.

2 Corinthians 12:10 - That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Joe King
Jun 12th 2008, 02:26 AM
They'll only have to explain us away if we actually disappear at the start of the tribulation . . . which is one problem I see with a pre-tribulation rapture . . . it doesn't seem to work for me . . .

It works for a lot of people because then they avoid the hard stuff. I'm sure a lot of Christians will be tested during the tribulation.

tango
Jun 12th 2008, 03:54 AM
It works for a lot of people because then they avoid the hard stuff. I'm sure a lot of Christians will be tested during the tribulation.

I'd really like to think I'll be whisked away so I don't have to deal with the tribulation, but live on the assumption I won't be. If I get raptured and escape the trials that's a bonus.

I Love JesusChrist
Jun 12th 2008, 04:35 AM
All true CHRISTIANS should not worry about the endtimes. Live your life like everyday is the last day on earth. Live your life like JESUS is judging every single action and thought that passes through your head. You must have unyielding faith. If you are worried about endtimes, your faith is not strong enough. PRAY!!

White Spider
Jun 12th 2008, 04:36 AM
I'd really like to think I'll be whisked away so I don't have to deal with the tribulation, but live on the assumption I won't be. If I get raptured and escape the trials that's a bonus.

Amen to that . . .

Hope for the best, but plan for the worst!

Joe King
Jun 12th 2008, 04:36 AM
I'd really like to think I'll be whisked away so I don't have to deal with the tribulation, but live on the assumption I won't be. If I get raptured and escape the trials that's a bonus.


Now that's the right mindset:bounce:

White Spider
Jun 12th 2008, 04:39 AM
If you are worried about endtimes, your faith is not strong enough. PRAY!!

Worried, not at all, I'm looking forward to it . . . :pp

Bring it Satan!

With God on my side I've already won :bounce:

Merton
Jun 12th 2008, 05:18 AM
I know this has been done before, but really how can we prepare for the end times? I can see that the vast majority of the board is looking for the signs and we are getting them. What can we do? Have you taken any precautions?

Stock up on food? Move elsewhere?


Hi Joe,

I think a good look at the times leading up to and during Hitlers conquest of Germany onward is a good idea. (for a German citizen of the time)

It all depends on where the Lord wants his people to be for the sake of other people.

Some fled, others stayed. Most did not know where everything was leading to.

Self survival is not the main issue for the Christian but of course he/she may have family and friends who they want to provide for.

I tend to think of what may be needed food wise to some extent for any kind of emergency.

Moving to the country might be what one should do, but for others it may not be.

Country living in the future times may well not protect anyone from anything because unless a believer keeps their mouth entirely shut and the witness of their life entirely hidden then one is easily found especially by dobbers who hate the gospel.

But placing all that aside, God did not make great cities for His people to live and strive in, but yes villages around which country people lived who had a sense of community with the local market and church, simple education, and where the elders of the community met, and other community activities engaged in.

The civilised society of today is not very civilised at all.

It is Babylon, and just what each Christian should do about that, is something to pray in earnest about.

Rev 16:19 And the great city came to be into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the anger of His wrath.
Merton.

DurbanDude
Jun 12th 2008, 11:17 AM
Those raptured will not suffer the 7 vials.


Seems to make sense , will study this further , thanks.

DurbanDude
Jun 12th 2008, 11:31 AM
Daniel 8: 2. And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is IN THE PROVINCE OF ELAM; and I saw in a vision, and I WAS BY THE RIVER OF ULAI.

Iraq has come up 1st Saddam is now dead and now we see Iran the higher horn come up with a leader that wants to wipe Israel off the planet. The Islam religion is a push religion and fundamentalists are pushing.

3. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, THERE STOOD BEFORE THE RIVER A RAM which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but ONE was HIGHER than the other, and THE HIGHER CAME UP LAST.
4. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

.:hug:


Hi , I prefer the traditional approach , I know this doesn't explain everything , but Alexander and the four divisions of the empire fit well. Not certain enough on this to be able to have any in depth discussion but have looked into what you are saying and its very interesting. Obviously I base my thinking on the following verses : Daniel 8:

8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

lyn4774
Jun 12th 2008, 08:59 PM
I’ve been a reader of your forum, but haven’t registered until reading this post today. I was so glad to read about end time preparation and to read the replies. It seem that in worldly circles and also most Christian circles, anyone who undertakes disaster preparation is often looked at as a some kind of crazy person.

My husband and I have several acres of land - near town - not way in the country. This time last year my big plans were hiring landscapers and putting in a pool. Now, as my feelings grow stronger and stronger that this world is on the brink of chaos, my desires have turned from pools and pretty flowers to fencing a pasture, planting a garden, turning our barn and home into a refuge for others, and stocking a pantry with things I’m learning to can myself (canning ??? I can’t even believe it’s something my heart now desires to do. I’m a busy lawyer and my husband and I used to eat out almost every night. "Putting up" food was something for my great-grandmother to talk about). Instead of spending money on a vacation this year, I’m buying extra Bibles and livestock fencing.

Truly, it may not be needed, but even if not, it has been a wonderful experience. Working in the field, tending the garden, deepening connections at home with my family and with God, is so much better for my spirit than the alternate ways of leisure that this world offers, which have just distracted me from God. This preparation doesn’t take away from prayer and going deeper with my Bible study. I’ve just redirected my frivolous spending of money and leisure time into starting to learn about the land, gardens and animals that God has given us. At the very minimum, it has already been worth while. But, at the other end of the spectrum, we might one day (soon) be able to offer refuge to others who might be hungry and lost. I’m not particularly concerned with my life, but I am concerned with perhaps being able to help some of those that don’t know God understand why the chaos is happening, and to stay alive long enough to know God.

And if the choas doesn't happen soon? I'll volunteer our pasture to needy inner city children who would like to do 4-H projects and give the extra money we save by growing our own food to our church!

wombat
Jun 13th 2008, 01:33 AM
I’ve been a reader of your forum, but haven’t registered until reading this post today. I was so glad to read about end time preparation and to read the replies. It seem that in worldly circles and also most Christian circles, anyone who undertakes disaster preparation is often looked at as a some kind of crazy person. My husband and I have several acres of land - near town - not way in the country. This time last year my big plans were hiring landscapers and putting in a pool. Now, as my feelings grow stronger and stronger that this world is on the brink of chaos, my desires have turned from pools and pretty flowers to fencing a pasture, planting a garden, turning our barn and home into a refuge for others, and stocking a pantry with things I’m learning to can myself (canning ??? I can’t even believe it’s something my heart now desires to do. I’m a busy lawyer and my husband and I used to eat out almost every night. "Putting up" food was something for my great-grandmother to talk about). Instead of spending money on a vacation this year, I’m buying extra Bibles and livestock fencing.
Truly, it may not be needed, but even if not, it has been a wonderful experience. Working in the field, tending the garden, deepening connections at home with my family and with God, is so much better for my spirit than the alternate ways of leisure that this world offers, which have just distracted me from God. This preparation doesn’t take away from prayer and going deeper with my Bible study. I’ve just redirected my frivolous spending of money and leisure time into starting to learn about the land, gardens and animals that God has given us. At the very minimum, it has already been worth while. But, at the other end of the spectrum, we might one day (soon) be able to offer refuge to others who might be hungry and lost. I’m not particularly concerned with my life, but I am concerned with perhaps being able to help some of those that don’t know God understand why the chaos is happening, and to stay alive long enough to know God.

And if the choas doesn't happen soon? I'll volunteer our pasture to needy inner city children who would like to do 4-H projects and give the extra money we save by growing our own food to our church!
Hello, Lyn4774! Welcome! We're glad you joined us. May God bless you as you grow closer to Him in your endeavors--I think your plans sound wonderful!

Befaithful
Jun 13th 2008, 01:35 AM
I had to find your post...after finding out you have been reading the forums here for a year. Amazing. You must be very patient:Dslow to speak and quick to listen.:hug:

I think your heart's desire to start a big garden, to prepare for the future and open your house to others, and collecting bibles is a turn in your heart by...our precious Lord.

Gardening and canning is so rewarding, a joy. It is a blessing to have you here with us...have fun preparing.

Bless you

fewarechosen
Jun 13th 2008, 01:52 AM
i think end times preperation is a hard thing to think about, most people are horrified to look at thier loved ones and themselves and think about them getting"stoned" or whatever so its easier to look away and its easier to want to think hey im gonna get raptured. but i think of that girl in columbine high school when the devil came --she was ready. when the devil came with his sword and said who believes in god here she stood up she confessed christ, she resisted untill blood as it is said in scripture. she was more than a warrior and i pray for her often and draw great insperation from her. thinking wow i hope if that ever happens i can do the same. now to think well that will never happen to me is an error, one must be prepared for it or at least try to prepare. which is a very hard thing to think about.

now remember god says such a time will come that has never been so harsh. so keep that in mind --it will make concentration camps look like a school yard scuffle. the devil is the prince of this world and make no mistake he wants us dead -body and soul.

now am i preaching fear --by no means do i feel i am. its a harsh truth, and this thread is for end times preperation. now do i say bring it on or any such boastfull things --no way-- i pray god deliver me and give me the strength to handle any situation correctly.

if some say its spreading fear, i say fear not he who can only kill your body, cause after than he can do no more. but make no mistake , harsh times are coming and many must be washed and made white. my prayers are with them

servant of Lord
Jun 13th 2008, 02:29 AM
This is the same question that I have asked the Lord, what do I need to do ...do I store up food or what ?

This morning though I felt the Holy Spirit showing me something..I had to go to dentist..and I sat there I watched on the tv in the dentist chair all the storms and floods and chaos all over the US. I saw that our president is over seas doing God knows what..and the dentist said that he was putting in a well to survive...(you know a water system)...and when I left I was more concerned with his soul then ever ...he made some comments that let me know that he is not a christian..like he would rather watch porn then listen to a preacher...yeah, that is a clear one..I am like hey, maybe I should not be back here or should I come back and tell him what I was wanting and trying to when in chair..I had all that stuff in my mouth and tryed to speak up about the bible...but they did not understand what I was saying...so , I prayed...
so, what is my point...well, this man needs to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ..and needs to know that God is the well that never runs dry and it is living water..without him we can not survive...so, then what do we do...
know CHrist and be in Him...yes...then what ?
I am still praying and letting the Lord lead me..but I do know this, that whatever happens God is faithful and will take care of me..but faith without works is dead..so am I to prepare for something...
today when I came home I certainly felt so. I even started preparing my kitchen to do so...but, will it matter ? I feel that though these things come, and yes many will die of hunger and such...but if I am in Him then what matters, those left behind, well to me yes...I like what the one who said that they have prepared to leave behind those things to tell the loved ones what happened and will happen...that is good...I have done something similar but not at all in way that you have so well done..but I am thinking to defintely do that..starting tonite maybe..
so, I do appauld each of you for preparing though....maybe that is GOd's will for you..maybe your home will become a safe home to others during it all...and maybe some of us are called to other things during this time ? I do not know yet...still seeking God, but as each day goes by I seem to think Yes, do something...but each day that goes by is one less that I have taken to prepare...
But I do know this...with each day that does come, I do share the gospel with all ...if it be in the store or in the work place or the dentist office(well as much as I could...that did not work out as well as I wanted..but did pray and though I would come back with a message...) but tell them while it can be heard and they can be saved...for God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten SOn ...and we need to tell them over and over...repent for the Kingdom of GOd is at hand...come to the Supper of the Lamb,...

fewarechosen
Jun 13th 2008, 02:33 AM
wise words servent and my prayers are with you.

and i agree one god could be telling to store up food, one god could be saying dont store up food

because in the end it might be through not storing up food that one is led to the one has stored food. and then both are made full

he works how he wills

jewel4Christ
Jun 13th 2008, 03:20 AM
Hi Joe,

I think a good look at the times leading up to and during Hitlers conquest of Germany onward is a good idea. (for a German citizen of the time)

It all depends on where the Lord wants his people to be for the sake of other people.

Some fled, others stayed. Most did not know where everything was leading to.

Self survival is not the main issue for the Christian but of course he/she may have family and friends who they want to provide for.

I tend to think of what may be needed food wise to some extent for any kind of emergency.

Moving to the country might be what one should do, but for others it may not be.

Country living in the future times may well not protect anyone from anything because unless a believer keeps their mouth entirely shut and the witness of their life entirely hidden then one is easily found especially by dobbers who hate the gospel.

But placing all that aside, God did not make great cities for His people to live and strive in, but yes villages around which country people lived who had a sense of community with the local market and church, simple education, and where the elders of the community met, and other community activities engaged in.

The civilised society of today is not very civilised at all.

It is Babylon, and just what each Christian should do about that, is something to pray in earnest about.

Rev 16:19 And the great city came to be into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the anger of His wrath.
Merton.


wise words servent and my prayers are with you.

and i agree one god could be telling to store up food, one god could be saying dont store up food

because in the end it might be through not storing up food that one is led to the one has stored food. and then both are made full

he works how he wills

I think both of these are saying the same thing. God will work where and how He works and we really cannot limit Him in this area...and, to that I say amen...

The spirit will lead us all where we need to be..and, in what we need to do.

peaceandlove,

janet

White Spider
Jun 13th 2008, 07:13 PM
now am i preaching fear --by no means do i feel i am. its a harsh truth, and this thread is for end times preperation. now do i say bring it on or any such boastfull things --no way-- i pray god deliver me and give me the strength to handle any situation correctly.

Hey, I know my own capabilities and my limits, saying, "Bring it on!" is not being boastful . . . I know my stubbornness, my high pain threshold and my Love For Christ will get me through anything . . .

Pain to me is something enjoyable, it's the one thing that lets you know you're alive and awake.

I don't inflict pain on myself, but when I'm in pain it's not something I wish was gone, I don't take pain relievers, I don't visit doctors, I don't to anything to make it go away . . . I only fast and pray . . . I don't pray for the pain to go away, just that I get through it . . .

I know what Satan will dish out will challenge me, but with Christ I know I'll overcome anything Satan has.

I look forward to the challenge as I find every time my faith is tested I come out a better Christian stronger in faith and closer to Christ.

So again I'll say, "Bring it on Satan!"

White Spider
Jun 14th 2008, 12:14 AM
On preparing for the End Times heres quotes to consider;


By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail.

God helps those who help themselves.

He that waits upon fortune, is never sure of a dinner.

- Benjamin Franklin

servant of Lord
Jun 14th 2008, 03:43 AM
I am really getting alot from all the posts on this subject. Today me and my mom had this talk...she thinks that we are going to have to pull together...she is going to start to buy some things to store up...

But, I think about what the bible says..that people would hide in the cleft of the rocks in fear of what is happening..and I think also about Jesus telling us that when persection comes that we do not fear for He is with us..

Today I also heard through the public ( i work in place where I hear differnet converstaions taking place with client and worker) and it is so sad that there are some who believe that there money will save them...they are trusting in their own foundations..and they are working on building a higher life for themselves...oh, that we should tell them ..each and everyone..Now, I am so far from perfect and fall short dailey..but this is my calling..to tell the people..no matter who they are ..fear is set aside and the love of GOd is shared to them and the importance of coming to Him ..Now !!!

But, I am leaning toward stocking up on some things..when I look at my babies I think how could I not ? I still lean toward trusting GOd though to take care of all needs..I am not fretting over stocking up...I seem to lean toward , if we die of hunger that may be better then what is to come soon...But, I am still praying..just afraid that I will miss something ..but that is my flesh..

I do know this though..years ago..I heard from the Lord a word which I did give to church..
It is time to come into the Ark...which when I asked God what is the ark..HE said, Jesus..
HE said to come in and ride out the storm which is to come and that we are to reach out to them that are in harms way even to the shutting up of the doors...i saw this ark (like Noah's) and I saw these sleeves of people and I heard the Lord say, gently reach down and lift them on to the ark...

SO, now i am thinking what did Noah do...did he bring food aboard? what did he do ? I would think he did..will have to go back and read..hum?
God may be helping me here...hum

But, about the tracking stuff...has anyone read about the max factor thing? or the gilette razors ? or about the rifd in the stores that by just looking at something in store they can watch you miles away...there is tracking devices in micleaon tires(spelled wrong) these do not deny it either...research about it..use wal-mart rfid and max factor...u will be shocked if not ever seen this before..

Explaining the rapture...I think it happens with the earthquake ..the big one..and the sun becomes dark and all that...well, this will cause much confusion and could explain to them that they must have just died and the earth swollowed them up or they were swept away from floods and such that could happen...
I take this from what Jesus said about the earthquake and John...look at what john says each time he mentions the earthquake..then he sees a mulitude of people..

could be wrong..but this is what i felt..

also, one more thing...

GOd loves us and HE will take care of us..He promised that He would never leave us or forsake us..that He would be the finsher of our faith...we must abide in Him and keep His commandments...and know that if you mess up that you have a advocate with Him, Jesus Christ...and through Him we have full redemption...and with Him we have recieved eternal life..oh, what a blessing..

money and gold I do not have but what I do have I declare to say ..to all...the precious Holy Spirit which leads..and speaks to them...through us the believers of our Lord and Savior....

Bless you all...and lets us pray for each other..for the way GOd would have us to go...and one more thing..it may be good idea as one said..to get some extra bibles..cause they will not be able to be bought maybe...it could become a precious item...that is why I read mine all the time..to know the word and have it in my heart...but, most of all let me live it...Lord I ask in Jesus Name, amen...:hmm:

servant of Lord
Jun 14th 2008, 03:45 AM
:idea: I said, it could become a precious item..you know the bible...duh, it already is..you know what I was trying to say...just had to correct myself there....:B

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 15th 2008, 01:06 AM
DurbanDude


Hi , I prefer the traditional approach , I know this doesn't explain everything , but Alexander and the four divisions of the empire fit well. Not certain enough on this to be able to have any in depth discussion but have looked into what you are saying and its very interesting. Obviously I base my thinking on the following verses : Daniel 8: 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

The TRANSLATED name ‘GRECIA’ 3120 as a single nation in verse 21 is from the original sourced name ‘3120Yavan { yaw-vawn’}’
The biblical meaning of ‘yavan’ 3120 from its root source is stated in scripture clearly as being the forefather of the Gentile Nations through his sons.

Gen 10: 1.Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood. 2The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras. 3And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.

4. And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
5. BY THESE WERE THE ISLES GENTILES DIVIDED IN THERE LANDS; EVERY ONE AFTER HIS TONGUE, AFTER THEIR FAMILIES, IN THEIR NATIONS.

In all cases the BIBLE translation is the authority. Yavan 3120 means Gentile Nations according to scripture.

This is how Daniel 8: 21, translates from the root name Yavan3120 the grandfather of the Gentile Nations which naturally includes Greeks as inclusive through Yavan’s sons Elisha, Tarshish, kittim and Dodanim.


Daniel 8: 21. And the rough goat is the king of the Gentile nations: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.


Who is Number one king/leader.President of the Gentile Nations?
Now I could stop there but the Bible doesn’t with the detail so why should I when dealing with the ‘Alexander traditional approach.’
That theory based on a translated word into a single nation brings upon it awkward biblical questions that arise of themselves.



The angel Gabriel was told to ‘make this to understand the vision.’



Daniel 8: 15. And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, GABRIEL, MAKE THIS man TO UNDERSTAND THE VISION.

Now Durban, to be able to ‘understand the vision’ according the verses 17 and 19, we must understand the time of it, if we don’t know the time of the vision then we don’t understand the vision.

Daniel 8: 17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND, O son of man: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.

Daniel 8: 19. And he said, Behold, I WILL MAKE THEE KNOW WHAT SHALL BE IN THE LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION: FOR THE TIME APPOINTED THE END shall be.

Problem ONE.
The traditional Alexander approach ignores Gabriel’s words in verses 17 and 19 about the vision concerning ‘THE TIME OF THE END’ AND ‘LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION.’ Greek empire 331BC – 146BC is way off the stipulated time span set by Gabriel.


Problem TWO.



Gabriel mentions ‘TWO KINGS’ in one of the very verses that you used as reason for your preferred belief. Please read it closely.

Daniel 8: 20. The ram which thou sawest having two horns are THE KINGS of Media and Persia.


The Medo/Persian empire was under a ONE KING rule from memory it was Cyrus then Darius then Zerxes and then Artaxerxes. There was each king in succession ruling the ancient Medo/Persian empire not ‘two kings’ as stipulated by the angel Gabriel.

Problem THREE.
The Medo/Persian empire stood as one and fell as one empire.
Yet Gabriel says the larger horn came up last the larger being the Persians which does not fit the historical Medo/Persian empire, but does fit the events of today where Iran is pushing.

Geographical location
Daniel 8: 2. And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I SAW IN A VISION, AND I WAS BY THE RIVER ULAI.

Daniel 8: 3. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, THERE STOOD BEFORE THE RIVER A RAM which had two horns: and the two horns were high; BUT ONE was HIGHER THAN THE OTHER, AND THE HIGHER CAME UP LAST.

Problem FOUR.
Is with the biblical geographical location within the vision to that of the ‘traditional approach.’ They don’t match.

The Greeks fought the Medo/Peresians on the ARBELLA PLAINS, over one thousand miles away from the vision's stipulated geographical location of the ULAI RIVER now called the Karun.

Daniel 8: 2. And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I SAW IN A VISION, AND I WAS BY THE RIVER ULAI.

4. I SAW THE RAM pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

5. And as I was considering, behold, an HE GOAT CAME FROM THE WEST on the face of the WHOLE EARTH, and TOUCHED NOT THE GROUND: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

6. And HE CAME TO THE RAM that had two horns, which I had seen STANDING BEFORE THE RIVER, and RAN UNTO HIM in the fury of his power.

Problem FIVE.
Is the marvel of modern warfare, where a power from the West can move across great distances without touching the ground.
That was impossible for Alexander to perform.

Daniel 8: 5. And as I was considering, behold, an HE GOAT CAME FROM THE WEST on the face of the WHOLE EARTH, and TOUCHED NOT THE GROUND: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

Problem SIX.
Daniel 8: 8. Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it CAME UP FOUR NOTABLE ONES toward the four winds of heaven.

Some people like to associate the four beasts of Daniel 7: 4 – 7 with the 4 past empires within the traditional approach and have the Leopard in verse 6, as representing Alexander The Great because they say ‘as a leopard beast it runs fast as they claim so did young Alexander’s Greek Empire taking over many powers quickly.’

During the reign of these four 'notable ones,' the four Beast Powers that will rise up in Daniel 7: 4 – 7 the God of Heaven will set up His everlasting kingdom in verse 27.
God did not set up His kingdom during the time of the four Generals after Alexander died at the brass section of the Metal Empire Time Span Statue of Daniel 2: It was the Romans that set up their kingdom 146BC - 476AD.

The four notable nations of Daniel 7 rise at the feet of iron and clay a time way past the ancient empires.

Daniel 2: 42. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44. And IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and IT SHALL STAND FOR EVER.

There are many more details within Daniel that stand against the 'traditional approach' that I could use but this will suffice for now for the sake of space.

2 Timothy 2: 15. “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

Your brother in Jesus, PC. :hug:

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 15th 2008, 04:07 AM
When I First started studying eschatology, I thought that my bucket of beans was all ready for the 3 ½ years tribulation duration but my family started showing a keen interest and I now realize that my bucket of beans won’t make the distance!:eek:

tango
Jun 15th 2008, 01:23 PM
When I First started studying eschatology, I thought that my bucket of beans was all ready for the 3 ½ years tribulation duration but my family started showing a keen interest and I now realize that my bucket of beans won’t make the distance!:eek:

If you're trusting in your own strength you'll also need a bucket of bullets to protect your bucket of beans from the hungry masses who don't have any beans.

I used to think in those terms too, but rapidly realised just how futile it was going to be.

theleast
Jun 15th 2008, 02:42 PM
There is a place prepared in the wilderness for us. While everybody else is in a state of panic, stealing, murdering, and building up forts, God will be leading me to the place he prepared for me. I thank him for that.

Don't you know he warns against gathering your goods unto yourself in that time? For as the scripture says...

26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Are the people of this generation not feasting and drinking? Are we not giving in marriage with great celebration? Are we not buying, selling, planting and building in great excess? And so we do, and as the destruction came upon those generations unawares, so it will be unto this generation.

So Christ warns us against storing up goods in our house, or in strong places, for they shall not escape the judgement. When the trumpets blow, are you going to have time to pack up your car? Do you think when your neighbors see you have stored up goods unto yourself they won't come and take it? I say therefore to put your trust in God that he has already prepared for you in the coming tribulation, for did he not promise us that he would?

Matthew 6

25Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.


And here we are debating oh how to prepare for the coming of the Lord. Prepare by making your eye single. Go not after the flesh but after the Spirit, and follow the commandments of Christ, and in so doing God will prepare for you. For is not a laborer worthy of his meat? Do you think that by following the straight and narrow road God will say..."my servent was a sheppard unto my flock, but he didn't store up water, thus I will forsake him to die of thirst?" Of course not, he will take joy in the fact that you were a sheppard onto his flock, and he will add sufficiently unto you what you have need of, for a laborer is worthy of his meat.

Praise to the Almighty God that he prepares for us against the day we have need.

Peace.

quiet dove
Jun 15th 2008, 07:57 PM
There is a place prepared in the wilderness for us. While everybody else is in a state of panic, stealing, murdering, and building up forts, God will be leading me to the place he prepared for me. I thank him for that.

Peace.

I'm curious when people say this. I know that Revelation speaks of the woman, who gave birth to the male child:
Rev 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. That would be Israel, not Church did not exist yet

Rev 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

I have no doubt God can protect every single believer if He chooses to do so, but that is not what Revelation teaches is going to happen. The only promise given of protection against the Dragon in Revelation is the woman who gave birth to the male child, not "the rest of her offspring".

theleast
Jun 15th 2008, 09:23 PM
I'm curious when people say this. I know that Revelation speaks of the woman, who gave birth to the male child:
Rev 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. That would be Israel, not Church did not exist yet

Rev 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

I have no doubt God can protect every single believer if He chooses to do so, but that is not what Revelation teaches is going to happen. The only promise given of protection against the Dragon in Revelation is the woman who gave birth to the male child, not "the rest of her offspring".


quiet dove, great point. Remember that the woman is the true church of God. During the old covenent the people of Israel were the chosen people to whom the covenent was given. When Christ came he wrote a new covenent in our hearts. Those who keep the commandments of Christ are now the woman, not the nation of Israel. Notice I am careful not to say Jews because a remnent will be saved! So the woman is now those that keep the commandments of Christ.

So the woman in that particular chapter of Revelation is the church of God. Not just the nation of Israel.

Edit: We are now at the point where the dragon is trying to have us carried away by the flood.

wombat
Jun 15th 2008, 10:01 PM
Remember that the woman is the true church of God. During the old covenent the people of Israel were the chosen people to whom the covenent was given. When Christ came he wrote a new covenent in our hearts. So the woman is now those that keep the commandments of Christ. So the woman in that particular chapter of Revelation is the church of God. Not just the nation of Israel.

Hi, Phaeton426! Actually, it is the woman's offspring that are the Christians, not the woman. The woman is indeed Israel. Her other offspring are the believers in Jesus, according to this passage.

quiet dove
Jun 16th 2008, 01:38 AM
quiet dove, great point. Remember that the woman is the true church of God. During the old covenent the people of Israel were the chosen people to whom the covenent was given. When Christ came he wrote a new covenent in our hearts. Those who keep the commandments of Christ are now the woman, not the nation of Israel. Notice I am careful not to say Jews because a remnent will be saved! So the woman is now those that keep the commandments of Christ.

So the woman in that particular chapter of Revelation is the church of God. Not just the nation of Israel.

Edit: We are now at the point where the dragon is trying to have us carried away by the flood.

But the Church did not give birth to the male child, there is no way around that one and Israel? The Church may be the offspring, or all believers could be the offspring, those who become believers during the trib, I leand mor toward the Church. But the Church did not exist at the time of the birth of the male child?

White Spider
Jun 16th 2008, 02:23 AM
Yes I agree we should all put our trust in God, but it would be a wise idea to have a safe place for yourself, food stored, etc.

If it's taken or you half to walk away from it, oh well, but having it prepared is better than not.

Do you go to work everyday, buy groceries, invest for the sake of that day or the days to come?

We are to live like Christ could return any second yet you all have food stored up for a couple days, why?

Preparing for the End Times is just a precaution just incase you need the stuff.

Plus wilderness in the Bible typically means a troublesome time, not actual wilderness. God has a place prepared for us, but it may be in the midst of all the problems of the world. And who made this place? Did God come down to earth and make a house for all of us to be safe in, or through people did He get this place prepared?

I think it will be Christians like me who took the time to prepare who will have a place prepared for those who thought God would help them in some supernatural way.

It could be interpreted in my accepting families into my place, which I prepared, that God had a place prepared for them . . . Of course I can only prepare my place with the help of God, but we must prepare.

I can't get over the fact that so many feel in the tribulation, if we are here, God will protect them no matter what, feed them, etc. We will be persecuted, martyred, we will be considered the evil of the earth . . . Don't prepare if you don't feel the need to, just don't forget to thank God when people like me who did prepare take you in . . .

theleast
Jun 16th 2008, 02:37 AM
The nation of Israel were the original chosen people. Now those with the gospel written on their hearts are the chosen people.

That is what the Spirit has revealed to me.

If you don't agree with me than follow what the Spirit has revealed to you for everybody sees things in the way the Spirit choses for them to see it.

Peace.

jewel4Christ
Jun 16th 2008, 03:20 AM
Within the confounds of the old covenant "Israel", there was a remnant that were unto faith. We, new covenant christians were ADDED to them. They, (the old covenant saints), were the "church" in the wilderness, at the time before Christ....One body, one faith, one spirit..and, ONE WOMAN.

Acts 7:37This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
39To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
40Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.



There was a remnant according to faith at that time. They were the "church" at that time. We are added to them. Those in unbelief were cut off.



A teaching that has "Israel after the flesh" as the SEED that brings forth Christ does not understand that Jesus came forth by PROMISE, and promise was given to Abraham, and not all Israel IS or WAS the true Israel of God, then, or now.




These things are written for our understanding.



Jesus Himself told the unbelieving jews that they had satan as their father..for IF they had Abraham, they would of done what Abraham did.



Abraham was a true jew from the beginning, and not everyone OF Israel of the flesh is counted as the seed/woman.


Rom 9


5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=5&end_verse=7&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-28146a)] Amen.
6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=5&end_verse=7&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-28148b)]





peaceandlove,

janet

My heart's Desire
Jun 16th 2008, 03:33 AM
Abraham was a true jew from the beginning,




peaceandlove,

janet

Adding a historical tidbit, Abraham was actually a Syrian from the beginning and he came from an idol worshipping family until he heeded the call of God to leave his country and his family. :)

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 16th 2008, 08:05 AM
If you're trusting in your own strength you'll also need a bucket of bullets to protect your bucket of beans from the hungry masses who don't have any beans.

I used to think in those terms too, but rapidly realised just how futile it was going to be.


It’s a good thing that I don’t think the way you suggest.

It was through the very words of Jesus, that turned me to study Daniel.
Since when have I ever advocated violence for a bucket of beans or for anything else?
Do you think that I would own a gun? Well I don’t.

As far as it being ‘futile’ let’s see what Jesus says.
Daniel 12: 12. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. That blessing is to be received in Rev 19: 1 – 10.

Jesus makes it clear in Matthew 24 that the time of these events is for the time of the end. Yet I am told that ‘it is a story spread over many centuries’ by many people.
However after studying Daniel, for over 30 years and still learning I know that the time span of ‘THE TIME OF THE END’ is no longer than 2300 ereb/evening beqer/morning (Dan 8: 14) which is 6 and a part years of which the tribulation is within the second portion of it being three and a part years (Dan 12: 12) and no longer, in fact God may shorten the time span of the vision. See Matt 24: 22.

My first concern was and is the strength of faith of my three sons, my wife and myself then the rest of my family through the power of the Holy Spirit and the written word of God and prayer.
I don’t want anyone betraying family members to save themselves and lose eternity. I love them too much for that so I prepare.
So why did I move from a city just above sea level up 380 metres in this lonely place nearer the South Pole? Answer verse 7.

Matthew 24. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7. FOR NATION shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and THERE SHALL BE FAMINES, and pestilences, AND EARTHQUAKES, IN DIVERS PLACES.
Earthquakes equal Tsunami’s.
Where were the birds Tango and other animals before those waves came rolling in?
They were up in the higher places.


Where were the dumb humans? On the beaches sun baking.
So please don’t suggest that what I do is being self-reliant we humans aren’t smart enough.

They can come to my gate and say you can no longer buy or sell yet they can't turn off my spring water can they or gas, because I don’t use gas for heating, I use wood!

This will give us a little respite time before they send the heavies around by then we will be off and away.
John the Baptist went into the wilderness and preached the coming of Messiah and people left the padded pews and went and sat on rocks to listen to him.
What happened to John? He was murdered and Jesus called him the greatest Prophet.
The Lord’s message is clear when we read Matt 24: Mark 13: and Luke 21:
So do you expect me to listen to humans that thought me stupid when I mentioned these pending eschatological events were coming soon over the last twenty years?
So from your advice that ‘it is futile’ should I sit and do nothing? …… I don’t think so, not after reading Daniel hundreds of times over but certainly not at the exclusion of other Bible Prophets.
This is good advice from our Lord and when He told me you and everybody else to read Daniel and understand it, I got busy with that advice which had nothing to do with me being self sufficient that came later as a by.
We are all God’s family and we must work together as one and not leave the work to others and become a burden on them through indolence.
Jesus said.
Matthew 24: 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

If Jesus says to those in Judea that they should FLEE INTO THE MOUNTAINS what should the rest of us do in other great cities?
Read Isaiah: 14: 12 – 21. See what Satan, will do to the cities and where he sits.
One notable verse. Isaiah 14: 17. That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Jesus said flee to the mountains when the abomination of desolation stands where he ought not and after years of study from the book of Daniel, I realized that we were very close to it from news events going on around us and that the pages of Daniel are slowly turning.
Yet I see people day-dreaming into a monumental crisis.
All this stuff going down and people try to tell me that Daniel, is a done deal and some say that ‘Matthew was a done deal in 70AD,’ well they can have their sun baking beach relaxed attitude and sit around and wait for the next lot of tsunami’s to roll in while the animals use their God given senses and get out of harms way.

I got off my backside IN FAITH through HIS WORD and did exactly that however I just moved a little earlier that's all.
I make no apologies to anyone for doing that.
Mattew 24: And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
I am sick of hearing about the ‘pre-rapture,’ you know the sort of smooth stuff the easy way out stuff.
A faith does not survive too many surprises when based on nonsense; because there is no foundation to it.
Isaiah 30: 8. Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
Jesus makes it clear that ‘Immediately’ and HE means IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION we will be lifted up, and certainly not before it.
Mattew 24: IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven with power and great glory.

31And HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Am I scared? Yes I am. Will I stop doing what I’m doing? I hope not.
I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall and after thirty years of others telling me that ‘I am trying to be self sufficient without relying on God’ or that ‘I am mad’ I feel like dusting off the dust and concentrating fully on my own loved-ones.

I understand there is a reason why God can’t intervene at present it is all to do with His law and the second Adam.
May God grant us strength in these times we find ourselves through faith in His Wonderful name and support each other.
Your servant in Jesus, PC. :hug:

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 16th 2008, 08:24 AM
There is a place prepared in the wilderness for us. While everybody else is in a state of panic, stealing, murdering, and building up forts, God will be leading me to the place he prepared for me. I thank him for that.

Don't you know he warns against gathering your goods unto yourself in that time? For as the scripture says...

26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Are the people of this generation not feasting and drinking? Are we not giving in marriage with great celebration? Are we not buying, selling, planting and building in great excess? And so we do, and as the destruction came upon those generations unawares, so it will be unto this generation.

So Christ warns us against storing up goods in our house, or in strong places, for they shall not escape the judgement. When the trumpets blow, are you going to have time to pack up your car? Do you think when your neighbors see you have stored up goods unto yourself they won't come and take it? I say therefore to put your trust in God that he has already prepared for you in the coming tribulation, for did he not promise us that he would?

Matthew 6

25Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.


And here we are debating oh how to prepare for the coming of the Lord. Prepare by making your eye single. Go not after the flesh but after the Spirit, and follow the commandments of Christ, and in so doing God will prepare for you. For is not a laborer worthy of his meat? Do you think that by following the straight and narrow road God will say..."my servent was a sheppard unto my flock, but he didn't store up water, thus I will forsake him to die of thirst?" Of course not, he will take joy in the fact that you were a sheppard onto his flock, and he will add sufficiently unto you what you have need of, for a laborer is worthy of his meat.

Praise to the Almighty God that he prepares for us against the day we have need.

Peace.

Hi there Phaeton426, I see that you Quote Luke 17: 26 which is a match to Matthew 24: 38 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17: 26. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Dear Phaeton426, you seem to forget that it took Noah 120 YEARS OF HARD CARPENTRY WORK PREPARING BY BUILDING THAT ARK.
God did not build it for him he prepared it before he could get into it and save his family through trusting in God’s word as to how he should build it.
Interesting similarity that God said as it was in the days of Noe so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

As far as Sodom and Gomorrah goes, well we all know why they were destroyed.
That is another reason to get out of the cities because it will be Satan that will destroy them, See Isaiah 14: :eek:

Maranatha . PC. :hug:

theleast
Jun 16th 2008, 01:18 PM
Hi there Phaeton426, I see that you Quote Luke 17: 26 which is a match to Matthew 24: 38 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17: 26. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Dear Phaeton426, you seem to forget that it took Noah 120 YEARS OF HARD CARPENTRY WORK PREPARING BY BUILDING THAT ARK.
God did not build it for him he prepared it before he could get into it and save his family through trusting in God’s word as to how he should build it.
Interesting similarity that God said as it was in the days of Noe so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

As far as Sodom and Gomorrah goes, well we all know why they were destroyed.
That is another reason to get out of the cities because it will be Satan that will destroy them, See Isaiah 14: :eek:

Maranatha . PC. :hug:

And so you ignore the scripture where Christ says don't go back into your house to gather your goods? Christ didn't say to build ourselves a stronghold, or a boat as in the days of Noah. He said that to show that the unrighteous would be caught unaware as they were in those judgements.

wombat
Jun 16th 2008, 01:52 PM
And so you ignore the scripture where Christ says don't go back into your house to gather your goods? Christ didn't say to build ourselves a stronghold, or a boat as in the days of Noah. He said that to show that the unrighteous would be caught unaware as they were in those judgements.
Hi, Phaeton426! Please don't think we do these preparations because we don't believe strongly enough in God's provision. Those of us preparing feel very strongly that God is telling us through His Spirit to do these things. Yes, we believe that God will be by our sides through the dangerous times, and yes, we know that our strength is in Him, not ourselves. But I fully believe that God may indicate to one person that there are necessary things to do in preparation, while to another person He may not. Proverbs 27:12 states that "A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions." Please don't confuse preparing with doubting. Our faith is leading us to take action that we believe God is showing us to take.

theleast
Jun 16th 2008, 02:24 PM
Hi, Phaeton426! Please don't think we do these preparations because we don't believe strongly enough in God's provision. Those of us preparing feel very strongly that God is telling us through His Spirit to do these things. Yes, we believe that God will be by our sides through the dangerous times, and yes, we know that our strength is in Him, not ourselves. But I fully believe that God may indicate to one person that there are necessary things to do in preparation, while to another person He may not. Proverbs 27:12 states that "A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions." Please don't confuse preparing with doubting. Our faith is leading us to take action that we believe God is showing us to take.

Wombat you bring up a good point. I'm sure God is leading many to build up provisions against the day of his judgement. What needs to be looked at is the reason WHY. Are you storing these provisions against YOUR need, or the need of ALL God's children? Are you storing up these goods because you think they can protect you from God's judgement? Or are you building them up to protect yourself against the judgement of man?

I'm sure there are any number of reasons WHY people are storing up these goods. Do what God leads you to do. As for me? I know where my place is and it won't be a stronghold. My place will standing in the midst of God's judgement giving praise to God for his righteous judgement.

jewel4Christ
Jun 16th 2008, 04:06 PM
Adding a historical tidbit, Abraham was actually a Syrian from the beginning and he came from an idol worshipping family until he heeded the call of God to leave his country and his family. :)

My quote was in reference to him being a true jew, from the beginning of his "faith".

Not that he was a true jew from birth....:)

peaceandlove,

janet

Mograce2U
Jun 16th 2008, 05:47 PM
Wombat you bring up a good point. I'm sure God is leading many to build up provisions against the day of his judgement. What needs to be looked at is the reason WHY. Are you storing these provisions against YOUR need, or the need of ALL God's children? Are you storing up these goods because you think they can protect you from God's judgement? Or are you building them up to protect yourself against the judgement of man?

I'm sure there are any number of reasons WHY people are storing up these goods. Do what God leads you to do. As for me? I know where my place is and it won't be a stronghold. My place will standing in the midst of God's judgement giving praise to God for his righteous judgement.That part I bolded struck me familiar so I looked it up and found this:

(Rom 2:4-10 KJV) Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? {5} But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; {6} Who will render to every man according to his deeds: {7} To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: {8} But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, {9} Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; {10}But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Now it seems to me as though Paul who suffered much affliction and tribulation, ought to be the one to go to to find out what he would instruct us to do - since he sets himself as an example we ought to follow. And what we find from him in 1 Thes 5+ is a list of things - none of which has anything to do with making provisions for our flesh!

wombat
Jun 16th 2008, 10:31 PM
(Rom 2:4-10 KJV) Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? {5} But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; {6} Who will render to every man according to his deeds: {7} To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: {8} But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, {9} Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; {10}But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Now it seems to me as though Paul who suffered much affliction and tribulation, ought to be the one to go to to find out what he would instruct us to do - since he sets himself as an example we ought to follow. And what we find from him in 1 Thes 5+ is a list of things - none of which has anything to do with making provisions for our flesh!
Hi, Mograce2U! I think if we read this text in context with the previous passages, more comes to light here about its meaning. I don't think this is speaking about people who look ahead and prepare for dangers, but rather it speaks about people who continue to sin after they have come to Christ. The previous chapter speaks of people who worshipped idols and creation rather than God the Creator, people who committed homosexual acts, and whose lives became full of every kind of sin. Then Chapter 2 goes on with verse 1 through the section you just quoted: "You may be saying, "What terrible people you have been talking about!" But you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you do the very same things. And we know that God, in His justice, will punish anyone who does such things. Do you think that God will judge and condemn othrs for doing them and not judge you when you do them too? Don't you realize how kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Or don't you care? Can't you see how kind He has been in giving you time to turn from sin? But no, you won't listen. So you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself because of your stubbornness in refusing to turn from your sin. Fo there is going to come a day of judgment when God, the just judge of all the world, will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But He will pour out His anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey he truth and practice evil deeds. There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on sinning--for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good--for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism."

fewarechosen
Jun 16th 2008, 11:32 PM
here is a way to look at it also -- a what if

ok lets say someone feels the urge to say hey you know what i gotta move to the country and stock up on some stuff , maybe dig a well and and get some equipment to perhaps grow vegetables and stuff.

all things that arent bad at all

but what if --instead of spending that money to dig a well, that instead you visited poor people and bought them food with that money. instead of using the money to buy canning supplies you visited some people in prison and bought them simple things to help. so on and so on.

it sort of makes me think which would god prefer i do.

so i dont condemn someone for storing up per say.
but i do say to really question your motive -- if its to feel safe i think that would be an error

just 2 cents

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 17th 2008, 02:08 AM
I just wanted to say that I thank the Lord for your fellowship dear Joe King,Wombat,MyHeartsDesire,White Spider, Tango,FewAreChosen,quiet dove and last but not least dear sister Lyn4774. Sorry I forgot DurbanDude and phaeton426.

What a great help you have all been to me, and no doubt to others, an inspiration for my dear wife and myself to keep on going with this work and we owe you much more than a simple thank you.:hug:


Like lyn4774 I didn’t realize that there were others, of a like mind until Joe set it up. Thanks Joe. I am so pleased and grateful to be able to read all your posts and speak with you in fellowship and hope.



May God bless you, with thanks. PC

theleast
Jun 17th 2008, 02:10 AM
What am I chopped liver?

LOL :rofl:

I get no love I tell ya.

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 17th 2008, 02:42 AM
What am I chopped liver?

LOL :rofl:

I get no love I tell ya.
Hi phaeton I went and logged off to do some work and thought, 'what if I forgot someone?' Sure enough I forgot DurbanDude and your kind self so I got back on line as quickly as I could ....... But was not fast enough and saw your post and thought. O no, now I'm in for it.:eek:
I am Sorry for neglecting you dear phaeton and also DurbanDude I am so very sorry will you forgive me?:hug:
In Jesus PC.

theleast
Jun 17th 2008, 02:47 AM
Hi phaeton I went and logged off to do some work and thought, 'what if I forgot someone?' Sure enough I forgot DurbanDude and your kind self so I got back on line as quickly as I could ....... But was not fast enough and saw your post and thought. O no, now I'm in for it.:eek:
I am Sorry for neglecting you dear phaeton and also DurbanDude I am so very sorry will you forgive me?:hug:
In Jesus PC.

No problem friend...thats why I LOL'd. :spin:

Mograce2U
Jun 17th 2008, 03:24 AM
What am I chopped liver?

LOL :rofl:

I get no love I tell ya.Not you, but apparently me!

But that's ok because I do not agree with Prophecy Countdown's premise at all. The wrath of God is not for His children. (and it is too bad you cannot bold a period). We are in the safest possible place we could be if we are in Christ - EVEN THOUGH WE DIE.

(Rom 8:35-37 KJV) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? {36} As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. {37} Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

We have what the world who stands already condemned will never have - LIFE. If that is not enough to overcome any affliction that might come our way, well I don't know what is. The ones who were told to head for the hills were the ones who saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies. Not only are we past that time, but we are already far away from the earthly Jerusalem because we dwell in the Jerusalem that is above.

My heart's Desire
Jun 17th 2008, 03:50 AM
My quote was in reference to him being a true jew, from the beginning of his "faith".

Not that he was a true jew from birth....:)

peaceandlove,

janet
I know. I was just ribing ya! ;)

TexasBeliever
Jun 17th 2008, 12:45 PM
Hey Joe King, I'm just gonna say this because I don't see anybody here bringing-it-up, it seems everybody so far believes we better hunker-down and prepare for the worst, but being a pre-tribulationist I think all this talk about moving to remote areas and storing food and the like is really much-a-do bout nothing.

We're the Bride of Christ, He's going to take us out of harms way before all the bad stuff happens, just like any good husband would do if he knew there was harm coming his bride's way. Our job as the Bride is to proclaim the gospel and live godly lives before God as much as we're able and trust Him to complete the good work He started in us, to perfect us for the day He will call us up from heaven to meet Him in the air.

I know many here will disagree with me, but that's OK since I know I belong to the majority view.

Anyway, I just thought I should put in my two pence for the pre-triber camp.:)

In humility, all throughout the Bible, the majority view concerning the signs of the times was the incorrect one.
During the flood those in the MV were washed away.
Almost all the prophets were outcasts in their own time or murdered by their own people because they were outside the MV.
The people of Jesus day did not recognize Him because of the MV.
The apostles were persecuted and murdered because of the MV.
If I took the time to present a complete list, I would be here until New Year's.

DeafPosttrib
Jun 17th 2008, 12:52 PM
Excuse me,

What is MV?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

theleast
Jun 17th 2008, 01:08 PM
Excuse me,

What is MV?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Majority View.

I hate to say it but remember, many are called but FEW are chosen.

The majority don't make it to salvation.

wombat
Jun 17th 2008, 01:22 PM
Majority View.

I hate to say it but remember, many are called but FEW are chosen.

The majority don't make it to salvation.
Hi, Phaeton426! Just gotta say that I don't feel a pre-trib view means you won't be saved. We're all believers in our Lord Jesus here, whether we believe in a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib. Personally, I see a lot of good indications that there will be a pre-trib rapture, just as I see a lot of good indications that there will be a mid-trib rapture. We'll have to see how events unfold in the future. Either way, whether we get to escape before the scary events of the 7-year period of the end or whether we must go through a part of it, I believe Jesus holds our lives in His hands, and you and I and all of us believers around the world are the FEW that were chosen no matter our pre/mid/post understandings. I don't feel we should be lumped in the same group that died in the flood (as Texas Believer suggested), since those were not believers.

That being said, however, I do agree that just because there is a majority view on some subject doesn't always make them right.

theleast
Jun 17th 2008, 01:41 PM
Hi, Phaeton426! Just gotta say that I don't feel a pre-trib view means you won't be saved. We're all believers in our Lord Jesus here, whether we believe in a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib. Personally, I see a lot of good indications that there will be a pre-trib rapture, just as I see a lot of good indications that there will be a mid-trib rapture. We'll have to see how events unfold in the future. Either way, whether we get to escape before the scary events of the 7-year period of the end or whether we must go through a part of it, I believe Jesus holds our lives in His hands, and you and I and all of us believers around the world are the FEW that were chosen no matter our pre/mid/post understandings. I don't feel we should be lumped in the same group that died in the flood (as Texas Believer suggested), since those were not believers.

That being said, however, I do agree that just because there is a majority view on some subject doesn't always make them right.

I never said pretribbers wouldn't be saved! Goodness I don't judge my bretheren!

I just said the "majority" perish which is supported in scripture.

Matthew 7:14 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Matthew+7:14&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Matthew+7&version=9)
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

wombat
Jun 17th 2008, 01:57 PM
I never said pretribbers wouldn't be saved! Goodness I don't judge my bretheren!
I am so sorry, Phaeton426--looks like I misunderstood what you were meaning. My apologies to you!

quiet dove
Jun 17th 2008, 05:29 PM
Excuse me,

What is MV?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Yet another abbreviation to add to our list. :lol:

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 18th 2008, 02:32 PM
Not you, but apparently me!

But that's ok because I do not agree with Prophecy Countdown's premise at all. The wrath of God is not for His children. (and it is too bad you cannot bold a period). We are in the safest possible place we could be if we are in Christ - EVEN THOUGH WE DIE.

(Rom 8:35-37 KJV) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? {36} As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. {37} Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

We have what the world who stands already condemned will never have - LIFE. If that is not enough to overcome any affliction that might come our way, well I don't know what is. The ones who were told to head for the hills were the ones who saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies. Not only are we past that time, but we are already far away from the earthly Jerusalem because we dwell in the Jerusalem that is above.

I just want to know what premise?
You correctly say 'the wrath of God is not for His children." so again I ask what premise don't you agree with, please explain?:)

Mograce2U
Jun 18th 2008, 04:21 PM
I just want to know what premise?
You correctly say 'the wrath of God is not for His children." so again I ask what premise don't you agree with, please explain?:)The one you stated here #93 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1673903&postcount=93)

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 18th 2008, 11:30 PM
phaeton426
And so you ignore the scripture where Christ says don't go back into your house to gather your goods?


You should know better than to say that dear phaeton426.;)

It is not necessary to avoid any house at the moment in which we live unless we live in Judea at the time of the abomination of desolation showing up in Jerusalem. That is yet to occur.:eek:
Peace. PC.

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 19th 2008, 12:16 AM
Originally Posted by Mograce2U
Not you, but apparently me!

But that's ok because I do not agree with Prophecy Countdown's premise at all. The wrath of God is not for His children. (and it is too bad you cannot bold a period). We are in the safest possible place we could be if we are in Christ - EVEN THOUGH WE DIE.

(Rom 8:35-37 KJV) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? {36} As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. {37} Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

We have what the world who stands already condemned will never have - LIFE. If that is not enough to overcome any affliction that might come our way, well I don't know what is. The ones who were told to head for the hills were the ones who saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies. Not only are we past that time, but we are already far away from the earthly Jerusalem because we dwell in the Jerusalem that is above.




My reply “I just want to know what premise?
You correctly say 'the wrath of God is not for His children." so again I ask what premise don't you agree with, please explain?file:///C:/Users/Pieter/AppData/Local/Temp/msoclip1/03/clip_image001.gif”



Mograce2U
The one you stated here #93 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1673903&postcount=93)



So I take it that you disagree when with post 93, well let me quote a few things from that post.

”It was through the very words of Jesus, that turned me to study Daniel.
Since when have I ever advocated violence for a bucket of beans or for anything else?”
”Do you think that I would own a gun? Well I don’t.”
So Mograce2U you don’t agree with my premise therefore advocate violence and think I should get a gun or rifle?



“As far as it being ‘futile’ let’s see what Jesus says.
Daniel 12: 12. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. That blessing is to be received in Rev 19: 1 – 10.”


Dear Mograce2U you don’t think God will bless His people in Rev 19 1 - 10?


”Jesus makes it clear in Matthew 24 that the time of these events is for the time of the end. Yet I am told that ‘it is a story spread over many centuries’ by many people.”


So would you like to explain why you disagree biblically on these points firstly? Then we can deal with the other things from post 93 using more Bible backup.

Dear Mograce2U, It is one thing to disagree as is your right but to do so without biblical backup is unwise.
So I am going to leave it there for now because you seem hesitant to respond biblically and just say that I hope and pray that God will bless you and keep you safe.

Your servant in Jesus, PC.:hug:

theleast
Jun 19th 2008, 02:38 AM
You should know better than to say that dear phaeton426.;)

It is not necessary to avoid any house at the moment in which we live unless we live in Judea at the time of the abomination of desolation showing up in Jerusalem. That is yet to occur.:eek:
Peace. PC.


I wonder how many have full understanding of what the abomination of desolation is.

Mograce2U
Jun 19th 2008, 02:41 AM
PD,
These verses may help you understand why I do not think Jesus ever intended that we move to some remote area in times of trouble:

(Mat 10:39 KJV) He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

(Mat 16:25 KJV) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

(Mark 8:35 KJV) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

(Luke 9:24 KJV) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

(Luke 17:33 KJV) Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

(John 12:25 KJV) He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Mograce2U
Jun 19th 2008, 02:42 AM
I wonder how many have full understanding of what the abomination of desolation is.You mean in the sense that Luke did when he wrote that it was Jerusalem surrounded by Roman armies?

theleast
Jun 19th 2008, 03:57 AM
You mean in the sense that Luke did when he wrote that it was Jerusalem surrounded by Roman armies?

That is not what the scripture says. It says when the desolation of abominations stands in the holy place. Where do you think the holy place is? And where does it say Roman armies?

Wordofthefree
Jun 19th 2008, 11:50 AM
You see, this disapearing into thin air stuff really bothers me. It's not going to be like that, god didn't go out of his way to test his people and then suddenly decide. "You know what thats just to much work" I'll just rapture them away so they don't have to actually to do anything, other then pray and go to church and feel very religous. Satan comes first, and he comes pretending to be Jesus. God knows the most likely to follow this deception are religous folks who never really looked at how revelation is worded. So I'll help you out abit, Jesus doesn't come until the 7th trump, and satan at th 6th trump.
So i'll repeat just for clarification, 1 comes before 2, 2 comes before 3, 3 comes before 4, 4 comes before 5, 5 comes before 6, Ok 6 there doesn't apear to be a 6.5 were jesus arrives.... Ok but satan certainly shows up. Ok SEVEN ok jesus arrives CONGRATS if you weren't decieved and followed satan thinking he was jesus. Oh it's gunna be rough if satan's lie just happens to be "hey, I'm jesus and I'm here to rapture you away". Could be very confusing to rapture theory people.

Mograce2U
Jun 19th 2008, 02:34 PM
That is not what the scripture says. It says when the desolation of abominations stands in the holy place. Where do you think the holy place is? And where does it say Roman armies?
(Mat 24:15 KJV) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand


(Mark 13:14 KJV) But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:


(Luke 21:20-21 KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. {21} Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


(Dan 9:26 KJV) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

(Dan 12:11 KJV) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

While there are many things about Daniel's prophecy that may not be clear to us, it would seem the coming destruction of the temple and the city was in view.

theleast
Jun 19th 2008, 02:53 PM
Go read my post in the rebuilding of the jewish temple thread and you will see my understanding of it broken down.

The Jewish temple is already razed.

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 19th 2008, 02:59 PM
Moregrace2U
PD,
These verses may help you understand why I do not think Jesus ever intended that we move to some remote area in times of trouble:

(Mat 10:39 KJV) He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

(Mat 16:25 KJV) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

(Mark 8:35 KJV) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

(Luke 9:24 KJV) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

(Luke 17:33 KJV) Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

(John 12:25 KJV) He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
You say

These verses may help you understand why I do not think Jesus ever intended that we move to some remote area in times of trouble:

This is a verse that shows why I think we should move to the mountains because this is what Jesus said during the tribulation to those in Judaea.

Matthew 24: 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)



Matthew 24: 16. THEN LET THEM WHICH BE IN JUDAEA FLEE TO THE MOUNTAINS::rofl:


Matthew 24: 20. But pray ye THAT YOUR FLIGHT that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day::eek:

I’m afraid Jesus did say flee to the mountains so I am ahead of time preparing to help those that do exactly that and shortly they will according to the prophecies of Daniel.



So what does this verse that you quoted mean? It means what it says and there is no contradiction with escape in the last above quoted verses.

John 12: 25. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

I don’t love this life or this World and neither would any Bible Christian also if I lose my life so be it, If I survive then I see Daniel 12: 12.

Daniel 12: 12. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Dear Morgrace2U, there is more to it than being martyred or being generous or even being charitable trying to save our souls because it won’t work.

For those that may die there is a promise as there is for those that survive there’s also the promise to those that come through the 1335
Do you think that to be martyred is going to save your soul Moregrace2U? If you do then I’m afraid it is not that simple.


The Interlinear Bible.



Hebrew.



Greek.



English.

1. If I speak with the tongues of man and of angels but do not have love. I have become as sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2. And if I have prophecies and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3. And if I give out all my goods and IF I DELIVER MY BODY THAT IT BE BURNED, but I do not have love, I am NOT PROFITED ANYTHING.
King James Version.
1 Corinthians 13: 1. And though I BESTOW ALL MY GOODS TO FEED the poor, and though I GIVE UP MY BODY TO BE BURNED, and HAVE NOT CHARITY, IT PROFITETH ME NOTHING.


We have grandchildren and I will do everything so that they have food and drink because we love them and if we do this in accordance with verse 42 we ‘In no way will he lose our reward.”
Matthew 10: 42. Whoever gives drink to one of these little ones, only a cup of cold water in the name of a Disciple, truly I say to you. In no way will we lose our reward.


The Interlinear Bible.



Hebrew.



Greek.



English.

So what is Matt 10: 39. 16: 25. Mark 8: 35. Luke 9: 24. 17: 33. and John 12: 25. all about?
Matthew 10: 39. If you try to save your life, you will lose it. But if you give it up for me, you will surely find it.
If you deny the Christ to save your own life you will lose it.

if you give it up for Him you will find it.

If you think heading for the mountains before or when we see the abomination of desolation standing in the Holy place is going to cost us salvation then I’m afraid I don’t agree with you.

Peter denied the Christ three times and Jesus forgave him.

However at the time of the end if people think that they can deny the Christ by receiving the mark of the beast to save their lives they will be sadly mistaken. That is what Matt 10: 39. 16: 25. Mark 8: 35. Luke 9: 24. 17: 33. and John 12: 25. is about.

God bless you Morgrace2U and I enjoy speaking with you and appreciate you taking the time to put your views and I respect your opinions on these matters.:hug:
PC

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 19th 2008, 03:25 PM
Mograce2U
(Dan 9:26 KJV) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

(Dan 12:11 KJV) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Hi Mograc2U,

You cannot bring Daniel 9: 26 using the word sacrifice and apply it Dan 12: 11 and also for that matter with Daniel 8: 11 – 14. Because the word sacrifice is in italics showing it to have been added by the Interpreters where it was not found in the Ancient Sea Scroll, discovered in 1947.:cool:

It is about the place of the daily which is to be given to the Gentiles for 42 months in Rev 11: 2 as the Gentiles trample on the city the two witnesses witness for a short 1260 days and are killed in the middle of the last week then 3 1/2 days later raised which makes 1263 ½ days when trumpet seven is blown in verse 15 bringing in the everlasting kingdom.

Peace in Jesus, PC. :hug:

Mograce2U
Jun 19th 2008, 03:42 PM
Hi Mograc2U, You cannot pull Daniel 9: 26 with any sacrifice that applies to Dan 12: 11 and also for that matter with Daniel 8: 11 – 14. Because the word sacrifice is in italics showing it to have be added by the Interpreters where it was not found in the Ancient Sea Scroll, found in 1947.:cool:
It is about the place of the daily which is to be given to the Gentiles for 42 months in Rev 11: 2. then a short 1263 ½ days later trumpet seven is blown in verse 15 bringing in the everlasting kingdom.

Peace in Jesus, PC. :hug:You mean the kingdom that Jesus announced had arrived?

(Mark 1:15 KJV) And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

(Mark 9:1 KJV) And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

(Luke 4:43 KJV) And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.

(Luke 8:1 KJV) And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and showing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,

(Luke 9:27 KJV) But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

(Luke 13:28-30 KJV) There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. {29} And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. {30} And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

(Luke 16:16 KJV) The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

etc....

Mograce2U
Jun 19th 2008, 04:21 PM
PD,
What I see is that you are going back to prophecies which have already been fulfilled and projecting them into a future time and then basing your life upon a fear which is not even real. And I don't know any gentler way to say that which we are instructed to do:

(2 Tim 2:25-26 KJV) In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; {26} And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Our hope is in Christ and prophecy is His testimony that ALL that has been written about Him beforehand, He has fulfilled. Therefore when we get to Revelation, we need to keep that in mind which speaks about how it was fulfilled in the day in which He proclaimed it would be. Our patient continuing in well doing being watchful over the saints in prayer is what WE are instructed to do. Lest any be led astray and fall away from the faith. If there is something to fear in the future - that is it; and anything that leads us into double-mindness about our hope in Christ is one avenue you do not want to take.

Our hope and faith in Christ is now as He dwells amongst us, not in some idea that we are going to be swept off the face of the planet before some fantastic time of trouble arrives and that is what we must prepare for. The rapture ideas which are being taught today fail to consider that this transition into the kingdom of God has already occurred, therefore the ongoing resurrection of the dead is the hope that we have taken part of because we are part of the marriage of the Lamb. This is the messge that Jesus came to deliver that eternal life was secured for us by His own resurrection. He didn't come 2,000 years ago to deliver only the promise of that hope - He brought it to pass. This was what Israel was waiting for Messiah to come and do.

It makes no sense to think that Israel now in apostasy because she rejected her Savior, is still waiting for this hope as if it is not available, when the One who gives life has already come to do just that and saved the remnant according to the prophetic word of God. Yet many have attached their hope to Israel's unbelief and are failing to see the Lord in His glory where He sits upon the throne of His Father. Looking instead to an earthly throne upon which David once sat as if being born of David is a greater thing than being the only begotten of the Father.

This is the double-mindness that is afoot which is causing many to oppose themselves in their understanding of the gospel hope that we must hold by faith.

I pray you will have a chance to consider this before they delete it.

quiet dove
Jun 19th 2008, 08:16 PM
I'm jesus and I'm here to rapture you away". Could be very confusing to rapture theory people.

If you are going to disagree with there being a rapture thats is up to you, but at least have your facts straight, those who believe there is a rapture are not saying anything about Jesus showing up on the earth and saying "I'm here to rapture you away".

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 19th 2008, 11:36 PM
Hang on Moregrac2U, you are trying to jump the gun by moving on from post 126 before you admit that Jesus did say that which you claimed he did not.
Jesus said this.
Matthew 25: 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16Then let them which be in Judaea FLEE INTO THE MOUNTAINS:

20. But PRAY THAT YOUR FLIGHT be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Yet you are contradictory, therefore in conflict with what Jesus said.

These verses may help you understand why I do not think Jesus ever intended that we move to some remote area in times of trouble:



I have dealt with Matt 10: 30. 16: 25. Mark 8: 35. Luke 9: 24. 17: 33 and John 12: 25 in post 126.
If you cannot face up to your biblical mistakes and not consider yourself answerable to them using the authority of the Bible only on these matters as your only guide then your understanding and interpretations will be unsound, as shown with the above last example.

Now let me ask you. Did Jesus say to go to the mountains during the tribulation in Matt 24: 15, 16 and 20? A simple
YES or NO.:B

Mograce2U
Jun 20th 2008, 01:33 AM
Yes indeedy He did for that tribulation in that time to those people, those were His instructions!

My heart's Desire
Jun 20th 2008, 03:39 AM
You see, this disapearing into thin air stuff really bothers me. It's not going to be like that, god didn't go out of his way to test his people and then suddenly decide. "You know what thats just to much work" I'll just rapture them away so they don't have to actually to do anything, other then pray and go to church and feel very religous. .
Humm, does God really go out of His way to "test" People? And really whether one wins or loses the test has nothing to do with salvation. It's a free gift. Is God gonna test me to see if I get the free gift or not? I don't think so. The only test would be whether I accept His free gift or not. No strings attached except to believe in His Son! God already did the hard work when He sent His Son to die on the Cross for all of our sins. There is no longer any wrath for those who believe so why would God let me go through His wrath in the Trib just to test me?

My heart's Desire
Jun 20th 2008, 03:45 AM
. Satan comes first, and he comes pretending to be Jesus. God knows the most likely to follow this deception are religous folks who never really looked at how revelation is worded. So I'll help you out abit, Jesus doesn't come until the 7th trump, and satan at th 6th trump.
So i'll repeat just for clarification, 1 comes before 2, 2 comes before 3, 3 comes before 4, 4 comes before 5, 5 comes before 6, Ok 6 there doesn't apear to be a 6.5 were jesus arrives.... Ok but satan certainly shows up. Ok SEVEN ok jesus arrives CONGRATS if you weren't decieved and followed satan thinking he was jesus. Oh it's gunna be rough if satan's lie just happens to be "hey, I'm jesus and I'm here to rapture you away". Could be very confusing to rapture theory people.
The only problem here is that as Thess. says God will send the delusion so that all who do not love the truth so as to be saved would believe the lie. They were unbelievers before God sent the delusion and He sent it because they already were unsaved. Believers are not in view here.

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 20th 2008, 08:30 AM
I wonder how many have full understanding of what the abomination of desolation is.

Then please explain it.:hug:
Peace PC.

theleast
Jun 20th 2008, 01:54 PM
Then please explain it.:hug:
Peace PC.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=127950

This thread discusses much about the desolation of abomination.

The desolation of abomination isn't a singualr anti-christ, or a temple. It is the beast, babylon, and the harlot coming to fruition.

Psalm 74

3Lift up thy feet unto the perpetual desolations; even all that the enemy hath done wickedly in the sanctuary.
4Thine enemies roar in the midst of thy congregations; they set up their ensigns for signs.

The enemy is in the midst of the congregation even now, and setting up ensigns like the coming of a singular anti-christ, and the rebuilding of a temple as signs of the coming of the end.

But in the words of Christ...

12And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

And yet people sit here waiting for this sign. And in keeping with the topic of this thread I ask you to pray God to pull you out of the beast, even at great travail. For the time of the end is at hand. In this way can you prepare yourself best for the coming of Christ.

Don't worship the beast that is before you even now by coveting flesh.
Don't worship the image of the beast that is before you even now with great signs and lying wonders.
Don't worship the number of the beast as Solomon did with his excess's that kindled the anger of God.

Rather see the world for what it is, the great lie that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth. For I tell you that not one stone stands upon another that won't be thrown down on the day of God's wrath.

For as scripture says...

2 Peter 3:10 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=2 Peter+3:10&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=2 Peter+3&version=9)
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

...even the elements melt.

Praise God for his righteous judgement and pray God to help you prepare inwardly for the coming of Christ, for what fleshly goods can be stored that won't be burned?

Chondram
Jun 20th 2008, 05:28 PM
You know what's crazy wombat? I feel like I'm drawn to move to Jerusalem.:eek::eek::eek:


OMGosh...I've thought the same thing!

Joe King
Jun 20th 2008, 05:34 PM
OMGosh...I've thought the same thing!

Cool. Now I know who the other witness is:lol:

wombat
Jun 20th 2008, 07:56 PM
Cool. Now I know who the other witness is:lol:
Hello, Chondram and Joe King! Would either or both of you happen to be Jewish--or is that a question that is of too personal a nature? Perhaps God has a reason that He is impressing upon you to go there--and that could be even if you are not Jewish. I wouldn't dare to speak for God in any way, shape, or form, but I do know from experience that He works on hearts to get people to go where He wants them when He wants them. If you consider He might be speaking to you about such a thing, I highly suggest that you do a lot of praying about it--both on your own and with trusted members of your church group. Jerusalem is going to be a dangerous place as Jesus' return gets closer and closer, but if God calls you to be a servant there, He will provide for you and help you accomplish His work. Many Christians do not realize this, but there is persecution of believers in Jesus over there in Israel today. Messianic Jews have had their Bibles and books burned just recently by an Orthodox Jewish community, and there is much in the news about Messianic Jews not having the same protections under the law as other citizens. Would you keep us all updated if you make decisions to go there? We will pray for you!

You know, I've been considering what the Bible says about the 144,000 Jewish Witnesses (who are believers in Jesus) who will spread the Word of God during the first half of the 7-year tribulation period. If, as I suspect, that period is soon to be at hand, there will need to be people preaching the message of Christ faithfully in Israel. According to a news report I recently read, there are currently about 8000 Messianic Jews in Israel, and there is a group called "Jews for Jesus" that is going to launch a huge evangelistic mission in Israel this year. Here is a link to the article.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/126077 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/126077)

theleast
Jun 20th 2008, 09:11 PM
Hello, Chondram and Joe King! Would either or both of you happen to be Jewish--or is that a question that is of too personal a nature? Perhaps God has a reason that He is impressing upon you to go there--and that could be even if you are not Jewish. I wouldn't dare to speak for God in any way, shape, or form, but I do know from experience that He works on hearts to get people to go where He wants them when He wants them. If you consider He might be speaking to you about such a thing, I highly suggest that you do a lot of praying about it--both on your own and with trusted members of your church group. Jerusalem is going to be a dangerous place as Jesus' return gets closer and closer, but if God calls you to be a servant there, He will provide for you and help you accomplish His work. Many Christians do not realize this, but there is persecution of believers in Jesus over there in Israel today. Messianic Jews have had their Bibles and books burned just recently by an Orthodox Jewish community, and there is much in the news about Messianic Jews not having the same protections under the law as other citizens. Would you keep us all updated if you make decisions to go there? We will pray for you!

You know, I've been considering what the Bible says about the 144,000 Jewish Witnesses (who are believers in Jesus) who will spread the Word of God during the first half of the 7-year tribulation period. If, as I suspect, that period is soon to be at hand, there will need to be people preaching the message of Christ faithfully in Israel. According to a news report I recently read, there are currently about 8000 Messianic Jews in Israel, and there is a group called "Jews for Jesus" that is going to launch a huge evangelistic mission in Israel this year. Here is a link to the article.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/126077 (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/126077)



Who said the two witness's had to be jewish? I don't see that in scripture anywhere.

wombat
Jun 20th 2008, 09:26 PM
Who said the two witness's had to be jewish? I don't see that in scripture anywhere.
Hi, Phaeton426! Actually, I'm referring to the 144,000 Jewish witnesses of Revelation 7 who are sealed from all the tribes of Israel, not the two witnesses of Revelation 11. I think Chondram and Joe King were just making a little humor when they made the comment about the two witnesses, as I see a little smiley by the comment.

Wordofthefree
Jun 21st 2008, 01:24 AM
Alright, you seem thoroughly confused by what I said so I will clairify it for you.
Yes, I believe the tribulation is two-fold. It is ment to test believers and punish the wicked, two seperate things that happen within the same time frame. You are right salvation is free to those whom believe in christ, and that he died and rose again on the third day. This is the part you are forgeting, "Let no man be decieved, the lord will not return until there be a falling away first". This is the test I speak of, some will be delievered up to satan. You need to think about why that is important and how it will happen. This falling away, happens within the church. Why do I know that, because it can't refer to the heathens because they are unbelievers. They can't fall away! They never believed in christ in the first place! Now, why would believers fall away. Simple because satan came to decieve, and who do you think he's gunna target? Thats right, YOU! Not the unbelievers, they don't even have salvation yet, it would be like trying to starve a man who doesn't have any food in the first place. So satan will try to decieve christians, twist a verse here and there and you can lead the unwary estray. So will you be decieved and follow satan or Jesus? Sounds like a test to me.....

theleast
Jun 21st 2008, 01:49 AM
Alright, you seem thoroughly confused by what I said so I will clairify it for you.
Yes, I believe the tribulation is two-fold. It is ment to test believers and punish the wicked, two seperate things that happen within the same time frame. You are right salvation is free to those whom believe in christ, and that he died and rose again on the third day. This is the part you are forgeting, "Let no man be decieved, the lord will not return until there be a falling away first". This is the test I speak of, some will be delievered up to satan. You need to think about why that is important and how it will happen. This falling away, happens within the church. Why do I know that, because it can't refer to the heathens because they are unbelievers. They can't fall away! They never believed in christ in the first place! Now, why would believers fall away. Simple because satan came to decieve, and who do you think he's gunna target? Thats right, YOU! Not the unbelievers, they don't even have salvation yet, it would be like trying to starve a man who doesn't have any food in the first place. So satan will try to decieve christians, twist a verse here and there and you can lead the unwary estray. So will you be decieved and follow satan or Jesus? Sounds like a test to me.....

Yes Satan does wish to devour the believers. I would argue that the falling away has already begun. There is an enemy in our midst even as we speak. The abomination of desolation is nearly set up to consummation.

My heart's Desire
Jun 21st 2008, 02:44 AM
Alright, you seem thoroughly confused by what I said so I will clairify it for you.
Yes, I believe the tribulation is two-fold. It is ment to test believers and punish the wicked, two seperate things that happen within the same time frame. You are right salvation is free to those whom believe in christ, and that he died and rose again on the third day. This is the part you are forgeting, "Let no man be decieved, the lord will not return until there be a falling away first". This is the test I speak of, some will be delievered up to satan. You need to think about why that is important and how it will happen. This falling away, happens within the church. Why do I know that, because it can't refer to the heathens because they are unbelievers. They can't fall away! They never believed in christ in the first place! Now, why would believers fall away. Simple because satan came to decieve, and who do you think he's gunna target? Thats right, YOU! Not the unbelievers, they don't even have salvation yet, it would be like trying to starve a man who doesn't have any food in the first place. So satan will try to decieve christians, twist a verse here and there and you can lead the unwary estray. So will you be decieved and follow satan or Jesus? Sounds like a test to me.....
Actually, I believe the trib is the 70th week of Daniel which will test the Jewish people and the 144,000. It is the time of Jacob's trouble not of the Church because the Church won't be here! And of course, I don't believe any believer can fall away to the point of being lost. I will always believe OSAS. ALWAYS. Why? Because it is the SON of GOD Who saves us and completes all! To be lost again in my book is like saying one was never saved.

Mograce2U
Jun 21st 2008, 02:55 AM
Alright, you seem thoroughly confused by what I said so I will clairify it for you.
Yes, I believe the tribulation is two-fold. It is ment to test believers and punish the wicked, two seperate things that happen within the same time frame. You are right salvation is free to those whom believe in christ, and that he died and rose again on the third day. This is the part you are forgeting, "Let no man be decieved, the lord will not return until there be a falling away first". This is the test I speak of, some will be delievered up to satan. You need to think about why that is important and how it will happen. This falling away, happens within the church. Why do I know that, because it can't refer to the heathens because they are unbelievers. They can't fall away! They never believed in christ in the first place! Now, why would believers fall away. Simple because satan came to decieve, and who do you think he's gunna target? Thats right, YOU! Not the unbelievers, they don't even have salvation yet, it would be like trying to starve a man who doesn't have any food in the first place. So satan will try to decieve christians, twist a verse here and there and you can lead the unwary estray. So will you be decieved and follow satan or Jesus? Sounds like a test to me.....I'm sorry Wordofthefree to have to say this about your post, but this is an example of how Christians contradict the very faith they claim to believe - opposing themselves.

Since when does God test believers in order to make them fall away? The tests which God sends our way amount to chastening in order to strengthen our faith in Him and keep us established in the faith.

There was only one time in history when God sent a delusion among His people so that they would believe a lie and it was according to His prophetic word about it. It was upon those men who rejected their Messiah and would not believe in Jesus as the One God sent but made themselves His enemy instead. This is the only fore-ordained apostasy which Paul mentions in 2 Thes. Much like He had hardened Pharoah's heart who was already disposed to it.

wombat
Jun 21st 2008, 03:51 AM
Actually, I believe the trib is the 70th week of Daniel which will test the Jewish people and the 144,000. It is the time of Jacob's trouble not of the Church because the Church won't be here! And of course, I don't believe any believer can fall away to the point of being lost. I will always believe OSAS. ALWAYS. Why? Because it is the SON of GOD Who saves us and completes all! To be lost again in my book is like saying one was never saved.
Hi, My Heart's Desire! Just a quick question for you regarding your abbreviation OSAS. I'm just starting to learn what all these abbreviations mean, but haven't seen this one yet. Thanks!

By the way, I agree with you that the 70th week is the tribulation period. I believe it will be a 7-year period. And I agree that true believers in Jesus will not fall away and be lost. What my opinion on this verse that says there will be a falling away first is that it might just refer to those people who are churchgoing, religious people (but not true believers). Jesus said that not everyone who says, "Lord, look what we've done for you" will be allowed into heaven--only those who really knew Him personally. The religious who do not know Christ would be prime candidates for falling for deceptions.

Also it could refer to all the false teachings that are occurring in many of our churches today. People are being deceived right and left by churches who claim to be speaking God's Word, but are in fact either spreading false doctrine or avoiding true doctrine. Our churches (not all of them, but oh so many of them) are departing from the truth as their congregations push more and more for "ear tickling" messages. I would say this is a falling away.

Also, it could refer to the general tone of societies as they pull away from a fear of God, much as what is happening in the United States. Our sister Daughter has made some posts regarding the state of society in the UK, too. Now we are hearing in the past year that the EU will not mention God in their constitution, in spite of calls for a reminder of their Christian heritage to be included. I believe that we are seeing a falling away all around the world. And I believe that this falling away is just the beginning of what 2 Thessalonians 2:3 calls "a great rebellion against God" that will happen when the antiChrist is eventually revealed.

wombat
Jun 21st 2008, 04:09 AM
The tests which God sends our way amount to chastening in order to strengthen our faith in Him and keep us established in the faith.
Hello, Mograce2U! While sometimes it appears that you and I disagree about certain interpretations of things, I do agree with this statement. The deceptions that Satan will work in the tribulation period are spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12. "The man of lawlessness [antiChrist] will be revealed...This evil man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. He will use every kind of wicked deception to fool those who are on their way to destruction because they refuse to believe the truth that would save them. So God will send great deception upon them, and they will believe all these lies. Then they will be condemned for not believing the truth and for enjoying the evil they do." So it appears the deception will be focused on those who do not know Jesus.

The Scriptures do say in Matthew 24 that false Messiahs will come and try to deceive even God's chosen ones. They will lead many people astray, but I do believe that those who truly know their Lord Jesus will know His voice and will not be deceived because they know the truth.

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 21st 2008, 05:08 AM
PD,
What I see is that you are going back to prophecies which have already been fulfilled and projecting them into a future time and then basing your life upon a fear which is not even real. And I don't know any gentler way to say that which we are instructed to do:

(2 Tim 2:25-26 KJV) In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; {26} And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Our hope is in Christ and prophecy is His testimony that ALL that has been written about Him beforehand, He has fulfilled. Therefore when we get to Revelation, we need to keep that in mind which speaks about how it was fulfilled in the day in which He proclaimed it would be. Our patient continuing in well doing being watchful over the saints in prayer is what WE are instructed to do. Lest any be led astray and fall away from the faith. If there is something to fear in the future - that is it; and anything that leads us into double-mindness about our hope in Christ is one avenue you do not want to take.

Our hope and faith in Christ is now as He dwells amongst us, not in some idea that we are going to be swept off the face of the planet before some fantastic time of trouble arrives and that is what we must prepare for. The rapture ideas which are being taught today fail to consider that this transition into the kingdom of God has already occurred, therefore the ongoing resurrection of the dead is the hope that we have taken part of because we are part of the marriage of the Lamb. This is the messge that Jesus came to deliver that eternal life was secured for us by His own resurrection. He didn't come 2,000 years ago to deliver only the promise of that hope - He brought it to pass. This was what Israel was waiting for Messiah to come and do.

It makes no sense to think that Israel now in apostasy because she rejected her Savior, is still waiting for this hope as if it is not available, when the One who gives life has already come to do just that and saved the remnant according to the prophetic word of God. Yet many have attached their hope to Israel's unbelief and are failing to see the Lord in His glory where He sits upon the throne of His Father. Looking instead to an earthly throne upon which David once sat as if being born of David is a greater thing than being the only begotten of the Father.

This is the double-mindness that is afoot which is causing many to oppose themselves in their understanding of the gospel hope that we must hold by faith.

I pray you will have a chance to consider this before they delete it.


Hi Mograce2U.



Mograce2U.
These verses may help you understand why I do not think Jesus ever intended that we move to some remote area in times of trouble:
I have dealt with Matt 10: 30. 16: 25. Mark 8: 35. Luke 9: 24. 17: 33 John 12: 25 in post 126. Those verses do not support your point at all
and neither does our Lord Jesus, in this following verse.

Matthew 25: 15.”When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16Then let them which be in Judaea FLEE INTO THE MOUNTAINS:”
Matthew 25: 20. “But PRAY THAT YOUR FLIGHT be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:”


I said to you.
“Now, again let me get an honest answer from you please. Did Jesus say go to the mountains YES or NO.”
Mograce2U you replied conditionally.


“Yes indeedy He did for that tribulation in that time to those people, those were His instructions!” Let’s give consideration to the time aspect of Matthew 24:
Matthew 24: 2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall NOT BE LEFT HERE ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER, THAT SHALL NOT BE THROWN DOWN.


The rocks of the ‘Wailing Wall,’ an integral part of the Temple building, are still standing, STONE UPON STONE, THERE IN THAT PLACE which is a confirmation that verse 2 is not yet fulfilled. ‘NOT BE LEFT HERE ONE STONE,’ that’s what Jesus said and there are stones, still piled up on that site.

The time context of the question then in verse 3, concerns ‘the SECOND COMING and END OF THE WORLD and that question and the answer to it in Matthew 24 is surely related to those events and their time in verse 2.

I don’t want to be-labour this but I Keep in mind verse 2, to which I have the question in verse 3, concerning His ‘second coming and the end of the world.’ I now have a disciplined TIME context to which the answer by Jesus, must be representative of to make it of any sense at all to me.
Now I am not going to use Daniel this time I will stick to Matthew.

Matthew 24 3. “And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, WHEN SHALLTHESE THINGS BE? AND WHAT shall be THE SIGN OF THY COMING, AND OF THE END OF THE WORLD?”

PART of the answer must be within the time context, of the question in verse 3 that is concerned with the sign of His ‘second coming and end of the world’ and continues as follows!


Mark 24: 15.When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16. Then let them which be in Judaea FLEE INTO THE MOUNTAINS:

I will have to keep reminding you Mograce2U of the context of the question to stop you wandering from it.
(Keep within the TIME context of the question in verse 3 of the sign of and His second coming and end of the world to which, part of the answer continues as follows!)

Matthew 24: 20.But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21. For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

I repeat to you Mograce2U.
(Keep within the TIME context of the question in verse 3 of His SECOND COMING and END OF THE WORLD, part of the answer continues as follows!)

Matthew 24: 29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


(Keeping in context of verse 3.)
Matthew 24: 30. And THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY. 31And HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I repeat again to you brother.

(Keep within the TIME context of the question in verse 3 of HIS SECOND COMING and END OF THE WORLD to which the answer responds and where the Prophets prophesied of it and to its completion, which was not the case in 70AD.)

Matthew 24: 34.Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

(Within context of verse 3. please) This generation of mortal man will not pass away until the second coming and end of the world occurs where we are to be made immortal at the voice of the last trumpet.

Corinthians 15: 50. Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP, but we shall all be CHANGED, 52 IN A MOMENT, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTABLE, and we shall be changed.

53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and THIS MORTAL must PUT ON IMMORTALITY.

54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN SHALL BE BROUGHT TO PASS the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWOLLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

55. O DEATH, WHERE is THY STING? O GRAVE, WHERE is THY VICTORY?
56. THE STING OF DEATH is SIN; and THE STRENGTH OF SIN is THE LAW.

57. But thanks be to God, which GIVETH US THE VICTORY THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.
57. Therefore, my beloved brethren, BE YE STEDFAST, UNMOVABLE, always abounding in the WORK OF THE LORD, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

I repeat again for your edification Mograce2U.

(Keep within the TIME context of the question in verse 3 of His second coming and end of the world and then all will be fully completed, that the Prophets spoke of and that is not the case just yet)

Matthew 24: 35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36. BUT OF THAT DAY AND HOUR KNOWETH NO man, NO, NOT THE ANGELS OF HEAVEN, BUT MY FATHER ONLY.

According to Jesus, ONLY the FATHER knows ‘THAT DAY AND HOUR.’
Dear brother Mograce2U you do not know that day because we are told that AT THE TIME OF THE SECOND ADVENT OF THE CHRIST that the last trumpet will sound and Paul states that, that occurs in 1 Corinthians 15: 50 -58! None of that was fulfilled in 70AD and neither was the next verse.

Rev 10: 7. “But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

I repeat the following again for you Morgrace2U ad nauseam.
(To keep you to within the TIME context of the question in verse 3 of His SECOND COMING and END OF THE WORLD to which the rest of Matthew 24 responds within context)

Jesus sends his angels to gather the elect.
Matthew 24: 31.And HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And his people shall be gathered, another confirmation of 1 Cor 15: 50 – 58.
I repeat Moregrace2U, stay within the time concerning verse 3 being the TIME of HIS SECOND COMING and the sign of the END OF THE WORLD and you will not start to wander off the real purpose of the answer.

Matthew 24: 40. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Matthew 24: 44.Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

As His people, in these times and a little earlier leave the cities and prepare to take care of their children, grandchildren and grandparents along with their friends and will fellowship with them and share warm food and clean drinking water and strive to provide for their housing.

Matthew 24: 45. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

I will show you this verse again Mograce2U.
Matthew 10: 42. And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Mograce2U you said.

“You mean the kingdom that Jesus announced had arrived?”


Jesus spoke of His coming kingdom not that it had arrived. So you need to rethink!

John 18: 36. Jesus answered, MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD: IF MY KINGDOM WERE OF THIS WORLD,
THEN WOULD MY SERVANTS FIGHT,
that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE.

The only time that His servants will fight is at Armageddon, see Revelation chapter 19: 1 – 10 where God’s children are invited to the wedding supper after the resurrection of life and receive the promised blessing then they will fight see verses 11 – 21.

John 18: 37. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Maranatha PC.:hug:

“A crust eaten in peace is better than a banquet partaken in anxiety.”

–Aesop

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 21st 2008, 07:33 AM
Who said the two witness's had to be jewish? I don't see that in scripture anywhere.


I do. And they are Jewish.
The first is Elijah
Malachi 4: 5. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

6. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Now your turn to figure out the second.:hug:

Mograce2U
Jun 21st 2008, 02:19 PM
I do. And they are Jewish.
The first is Elijah
Malachi 4: 5. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

6. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Now your turn to figure out the second.:hug:Here is the 2nd:

(Deu 18:18-19 KJV) I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. {19} And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

John the Baptist in the place of Elijah was the herald for Jesus' arrival. Thus the type which concerns the physical world has been fulfilled according to prophecy. The antitype where the 2 witnesses are spoken of is given to us from the point of view of the spiritual realm. As such the mention of the witness of Moses and Elijah points us to their ministries - the law and the prophets - which foretold the coming judgment.

Mograce2U
Jun 21st 2008, 02:45 PM
PD,
I wouldn't put too much stock in the existence of the western wall as being evidence that Jesus' prophecy was not fulfilled. The western wall was part of an expansion project which Herod undertook when he added the towers and such. The original temple which the Lord ordained the building of, is however gone in its entirety.

And as for the timing you think I am ignorant about, a quick look at the Greek will show that the "end of the world" is better translated "the end of the age". And there are many other clues given which show this meaning is the correct one - the removal of the temple is what signified that the end of the Mosaic era had in fact "faded away".

As for "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven", how do you read this? Is it a heavenly sign seen in the clouds? Or is it an earthly sign by which we know the Son of Man who is IN heaven, is at work? "Coming in the clouds" speaks of judgment from God which the whole world would know had come upon His people according to the prophecies given about it. Yet somehow we have lost the significance of this event.

wombat
Jun 21st 2008, 06:50 PM
The first is Elijah Malachi 4: 5. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD Now your turn to figure out the second.:hug:
Hello, Prophecy Countdown! Yay! I have been thinking the same thing about the two witnesses for many years. Do you concur that the other witness might just be Enoch? I think the key that holds these two together is that both were an example of the Rapture--both were taken up to be with the Lord, though they had not died. It is quite possible they will be sent back to earth with God's message for the world and will face their physical deaths during the tribulation period.

Forgiven Alaskan
Jun 21st 2008, 07:02 PM
Has anyone ever thought of John? Why does Jesus say John will not see death before His (Jesus') coming again?

wombat
Jun 21st 2008, 07:13 PM
Has anyone ever thought of John? Why does Jesus say John will not see death before His (Jesus') coming again?
Hello, Forgiven Alaskan! Good question here, and I think John answers it himself in the last chapter of his gospel account. I would refer to John 21:22-23, where this is spoken about. "Jesus replied, 'If I want him [John] to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You follow Me.' So the rumor spread among the community of believers that that disciple wouldn't die. But that isn't what Jesus said at all. He only said, 'If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?'"

Wordofthefree
Jun 22nd 2008, 12:01 AM
Actually, I believe the trib is the 70th week of Daniel which will test the Jewish people and the 144,000. It is the time of Jacob's trouble not of the Church because the Church won't be here! And of course, I don't believe any believer can fall away to the point of being lost. I will always believe OSAS. ALWAYS. Why? Because it is the SON of GOD Who saves us and completes all! To be lost again in my book is like saying one was never saved.
In reply to Morgrace2U

The church won't be there? I'm sorry I don't think the pre-trib rapture is going to happen so I don't include it in my way of thinking. We're just gunna have to agree to disagree on that.... Besides the rapture theory can cause a division among christians that doesn't need to be there, whether it happens or not be faithfull to the lord. Make sure not to get tricked into thinking the anti-christ is the real christ. I caution you, thinking Jesus will come first then satan and then Jesus comes again, only creates an oppurtunity for satan to decieve believers into thinking he is Jesus, and that satan hasn't arrived yet....

My heart's Desire
Jun 22nd 2008, 12:17 AM
.Make sure not to get tricked into thinking the anti-christ is the real christ. I caution you, thinking Jesus will come first then satan and then Jesus comes again, only creates an oppurtunity for satan to decieve believers into thinking he is Jesus, and that satan hasn't arrived yet....Sorry, I don't believe that. Jesus at the catching up of the church, only comes in the sky and doesn't actually return to the earth. He returns to the earth at armaggeddon. The Holy Spirit indwells the true believer and the Holy Spirit takes what is given by the Lord Jesus and He discloses it to us. He guides us into all truth. With the help of the Helper (Holy Spirit) I would find it very hard for a true believer to be decieved into thinking the antichrist is the real Christ. Believers know too much about him. Plus the delusion God sends is to unbelievers because they don't believe the truth to begin with. Why would God want to send such a delusion on His own people so that they'd believe the lie? I would think He that He would not.

My heart's Desire
Jun 22nd 2008, 12:23 AM
Hi, My Heart's Desire! Just a quick question for you regarding your abbreviation OSAS. I'm just starting to learn what all these abbreviations mean, but haven't seen this one yet. Thanks!

By the way, I agree with you that the 70th week is the tribulation period. I believe it will be a 7-year period. And I agree that true believers in Jesus will not fall away and be lost. What my opinion on this verse that says there will be a falling away first is that it might just refer to those people who are churchgoing, religious people (but not true believers). Jesus said that not everyone who says, "Lord, look what we've done for you" will be allowed into heaven--only those who really knew Him personally. The religious who do not know Christ would be prime candidates for falling for deceptions.

Also it could refer to all the false teachings that are occurring in many of our churches today. People are being deceived right and left by churches who claim to be speaking God's Word, but are in fact either spreading false doctrine or avoiding true doctrine. Our churches (not all of them, but oh so many of them) are departing from the truth as their congregations push more and more for "ear tickling" messages. I would say this is a falling away.

Also, it could refer to the general tone of societies as they pull away from a fear of God, much as what is happening in the United States. Our sister Daughter has made some posts regarding the state of society in the UK, too. Now we are hearing in the past year that the EU will not mention God in their constitution, in spite of calls for a reminder of their Christian heritage to be included. I believe that we are seeing a falling away all around the world. And I believe that this falling away is just the beginning of what 2 Thessalonians 2:3 calls "a great rebellion against God" that will happen when the antiChrist is eventually revealed.Ditto! It means once saved always saved.
And about the falling away as you have said above, that I would believe. I almost know it! I would mention some of the so-called movements (teachings) that I'm almost certain of but ought not in this thread. Indeed, I believe it to be religious people who indeed as the word says came out from us and yet were not of us or they would have stayed.

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 22nd 2008, 10:27 AM
PD,
I wouldn't put too much stock in the existence of the western wall as being evidence that Jesus' prophecy was not fulfilled. The western wall was part of an expansion project which Herod undertook when he added the towers and such. The original temple which the Lord ordained the building of, is however gone in its entirety.

And as for the timing you think I am ignorant about, a quick look at the Greek will show that the "end of the world" is better translated "the end of the age". And there are many other clues given which show this meaning is the correct one - the removal of the temple is what signified that the end of the Mosaic era had in fact "faded away".

As for "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven", how do you read this? Is it a heavenly sign seen in the clouds? Or is it an earthly sign by which we know the Son of Man who is IN heaven, is at work? "Coming in the clouds" speaks of judgment from God which the whole world would know had come upon His people according to the prophecies given about it. Yet somehow we have lost the significance of this event.

Hi Mograce2U.


PD,
I wouldn't put too much stock in the existence of the western wall as being evidence that Jesus' prophecy was not fulfilled.

The Wailing Wall, the foundation and part of the Herod built Temple and other structures that Jesus was speaking of when He said ‘SEE YE NOT THESE THINGS?’ Jesus then said “THERE SHALL NOT BE LEFT HERE ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER” and yet there are all those massive stones neatly stacked on each other, so the prophecy is unfulfilled.

Matthew 24: 2. And Jesus said unto them, SEE YE NOT THESE THINGS? verily I say unto you, THERE SHALL NOT BE LEFT HERE ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER, THAT SHALL NOT BE THROWN DOWN.


The western wall was part of an expansion project which Herod undertook when he added the towers and such.

Jesus was not talking about the non-existent at that time Solomon Temple. He was looking at quote ‘all these things’ unquote, pertaining to the Herod structure which included the Wailing Wall.
Temple tent. Solomon’s Temple. Both have nothing to do with Matthew 24: 2. Mark 13: 2. Or Luke 21: 6.


The original temple which the Lord ordained the building of, is however gone in its entirety. Yes the original Tent and Solomon’s Temple were not standing so what Temple was Jesus referring?
Jesus was referring to the Temple that Herod built, Wall and all as “all these things.”
The Wailing Wall now Standing there, stone upon stone were not all thrown to the ground so the prophecy is unfulfilled.


And as for the timing you think I am ignorant about, a quick look at the Greek will show that the "end of the world" is better translated "the end of the age".
And there are many other clues given which show this meaning is the correct one -

Yes you are right it is a better translation.

However I would not rely on the phrase ‘the end of the age’ or ‘the end of the World’ where there is a 1000 years time span difference in those two events as making your argument sustainable concerning ‘70AD.’ ;)
Or any dismissal of the stones still being on that site neatly piled upon each other as some sort of unimportant biblical throw away statement!

That would be a big mistake to take lightly the words of God.

The seventh trumpet indicates far more powerfully as to the time of the second advent of Jesus than any other prophetic sign.

The trump of God will be heard by every righteous person dead or alive on this Earth as Jesus in the presence of the Ancient of days returns with His’ angels to lift up the elect.

YES YOU ARE CORRECT! The timing concerning the Second Advent is stated as being at ‘THE END OF THE AGE’ you have made an excellent point and I do not argue with you on that.

However using your excellent point let’s run through Matthew 24 Chronologically.

From the abomination of desolation {Matt 24: 15} They, in Judaea must run to the mountains in { v16 } because there is to come a great tribulation in{v 21 } after which the sign of the second advent IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation occurs in{v 29}
The sign where Jesus appears in the clouds of heaven {v30} and sends His angels to gather the elect at the last 7th trumpet in{v 31} which ushers in a change from mortal to immortal according to Paul {1 Cor 15: 50 – 58}
The elect go to the wedding supper according to John{Rev 19: 1 – 10} then fight at Armageddon {Rev 19: 11 –21}after which Satan is imprisoned for 1000 years {Rev 20” 1 – 3} until the second resurrection of damnation where Satan and his followers are destroyed in (Rev 20: 7 – 10}‘THE END OF THE EARTH' occurs in {Rev 20: 11} then the procedures by the records of the books to those condemned were set fourth as witness to the righteous judgment of God in { Rev 20: 12 – 15}
We see in {Rev chapter 21:} A new heaven and a new Earth and we will be with our GOD forever AMEN!

So my dear Brother in Jesus, if I were your good self, I would not rely too much on a slight variation from ‘the end of the age’ which ushers in the second advent of Christ and the term ‘the end of the Earth’ ushering in its destruction a 1000 years later.

So you have just made me use your correct point to further scripture. Thank you dear Brother.


the removal of the temple is what signified that the end of the Mosaic era had in fact
"faded away".

The Mosaic Law faded away at the cross well before 70AD.
John 13: 33 – 35. 1 John 2: 7 – 11. 2 John 5 –6.
Love is by which all the commandments rest upon.

As for "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven", how do you read this?




That is a good question.
Matthew 24: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Corinthians 15: 50 – 58.

Unfortunately you did say.

“You mean the kingdom that Jesus announced had arrived?”


Which is opposite to what Jesus said and on that basis alone the 70AD theory crumbles as apostasy.
John 18: 36. Jesus answered, MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD: IF MY KINGDOM WERE OF THIS WORLD,
THEN WOULD MY SERVANTS FIGHT,
that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE.


Is it a heavenly sign seen in the clouds? Or is it an earthly sign by which we know the Son of Man who is IN heaven, is at work?
Yes, there are certainly Heavenly and Earthly aspects to this as you rightly suggest. What we see in Matthew 24: 30 – 31, is Jesus returning through the clouds with the voice of the archangel being the voice of trumpet 7 to gather His elect.


Matthew 24: 30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31. And he shall send his angels with agreat sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


"Coming in the clouds" speaks of judgment from God which the whole world would know had come upon His people according to the prophecies given about it. Yet somehow we have lost the significance of this event."
Of course and the wicked will mourn at His second coming as they see Him and realise their plight. I could mention Rev 6: 14 – 17. 7: 1 – 12 but I won’t.
The wicked will tremble as Jesus comes through the clouds. The sign is the son of man in heaven as He returns in the clouds for the specific reason of lifting up the elect and meeting them in the clouds as indicated in 1 Cor 15: 50 – 58.

However it is at Revelation 19: 1 – 10 we see the Heavenly scene after the wedding supper then change in verse11where we see as John puts it ‘Heaven was opened’ and we see the purpose of God’s change to that of righteous judge.

It is such a transformation that the Lamb becomes so powerful it is frightening.

Rev 19: 12. “HIS EYES were AS A FLAME OF FIRE, and ON HIS HEAD MANY CROWNS; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.”

Then war of HIS WRATH IS MANIFEST AS RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT. His name is KING of KINGS we see where judgment is acted upon when He returns to Earth with the Saints being a part of His Heavenly army to war against the armies of Earth.
It is interesting that we go to fight at Armageddon.

I have known, that in these following verses there is judgment not just spoken of but acted out at specific, orderly times.

The Earthly
Daniel 7: 11. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Daniel 7: 12. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Maybe the reason is in Daniel 7: 12 for the lion, bear, and leopard of Daniel 7: 4 – 6. being allowed to live for a while longer on earth, after the fourth beast of Daniel 7: 7 is killed.
It maybe for this next reason.

The Heavenly.
Daniel 7: 13. I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


It is at Revelation 19: 21 where these three ‘notable ones’ that have been waiting, called a ‘remnant’ are put to the sword.

The Earthly.
Rev 19: 21. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

We may not agree but it is nice speaking with you Mograce2U.:hug:
In peace, PC.

Wordofthefree
Jun 22nd 2008, 11:40 AM
Sorry, I don't believe that. Jesus at the catching up of the church, only comes in the sky and doesn't actually return to the earth. He returns to the earth at armaggeddon. The Holy Spirit indwells the true believer and the Holy Spirit takes what is given by the Lord Jesus and He discloses it to us. He guides us into all truth. With the help of the Helper (Holy Spirit) I would find it very hard for a true believer to be decieved into thinking the antichrist is the real Christ. Believers know too much about him. Plus the delusion God sends is to unbelievers because they don't believe the truth to begin with. Why would God want to send such a delusion on His own people so that they'd believe the lie? I would think He that He would not.
True believers? It' is said in the bible that God had to shorten the days of the tribulation because the whole world would be decieved, this he did for the sake of the elect! How many people think there are true believers? How many actually are? The strong delusion that they should believe a lie is not sent to unbelievers! That makes no logical sense? Why would delusion be sent to people who don't believe anyways? The delusion is sent to people who already BELIEVE in the lie that satan tells, "Whatever that happens to be". Only believers can fall into that catagory, but the TRUE believers are the elect. They aren't affected by the lie not because of there strong belief, it's because they know the truth AND believe steadfastly in that truth. Anyone can believe in something, not everyone can understand what the facts are about something.

theleast
Jun 22nd 2008, 01:47 PM
I do. And they are Jewish.
The first is Elijah
Malachi 4: 5. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

6. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Now your turn to figure out the second.:hug:

The name Elijah means literally "Jehovah is God", I can also see by looking at the root words that it could mean "strong in God".

Either way it does not say anywhere is scripture that the 2 witness's need to be Jewish.

theleast
Jun 22nd 2008, 01:53 PM
True believers? It' is said in the bible that God had to shorten the days of the tribulation because the whole world would be decieved, this he did for the sake of the elect! How many people think there are true believers? How many actually are? The strong delusion that they should believe a lie is not sent to unbelievers! That makes no logical sense? Why would delusion be sent to people who don't believe anyways? The delusion is sent to people who already BELIEVE in the lie that satan tells, "Whatever that happens to be". Only believers can fall into that catagory, but the TRUE believers are the elect. They aren't affected by the lie not because of there strong belief, it's because they know the truth AND believe steadfastly in that truth. Anyone can believe in something, not everyone can understand what the facts are about something.

This is a true post, except the unbelivers believe the lie as much as the believers. The great lie is already spread by Satan and most believers and all unbelievers already are decieved by it. This great lie is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth. People love thier fancy cars, trips to the carribean, high def tv's, clothes, shoes, knick knacks in curios, jet ski's and four wheelers, toys, computers, and everything else, MORE than they love God. If they loved God more they wouldn't waste their money on something thats going to be melted with a fervent heat in the last day of the Lord. They would feed the hungry.

My heart's Desire
Jun 23rd 2008, 04:46 AM
True believers? It' is said in the bible that God had to shorten the days of the tribulation because the whole world would be decieved, this he did for the sake of the elect! How many people think there are true believers? How many actually are? The strong delusion that they should believe a lie is not sent to unbelievers! That makes no logical sense? Why would delusion be sent to people who don't believe anyways? The delusion is sent to people who already BELIEVE in the lie that satan tells, "Whatever that happens to be". Only believers can fall into that catagory, but the TRUE believers are the elect. They aren't affected by the lie not because of there strong belief, it's because they know the truth AND believe steadfastly in that truth. Anyone can believe in something, not everyone can understand what the facts are about something. Scripture plainly says God sends the delusion to those who are unbelievers. Why would God send a delusion to believers so that they would believe a lie and not be saved? That's more illogical.
Elect only means "chosen". The Bible does say that God will send a delusion to unbelievers so that they will believe THE lie. Why? Because they chose not to believe the truth. And Who is the truth? Jesus Christ is the truth. The verse says they are not saved before the delusion is sent by God.

I believe an example of it this very thing is in Romans 1:23-24 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptable God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24. Therefore,God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so ..........
Through the rest of the chapter it tells that God gives them over the errors of their unbelief.

The delusion is that they will believe the man of lawlessness really is God! That is the true "falling away". Unbelievers stopping short of true belief so that they finally believe the Lie, that they pay for all eternity. It would not be God's fault but theirs for not loving the truth which would have saved them. That is the one unpardonable sin in my book.

My heart's Desire
Jun 23rd 2008, 05:03 AM
This is a true post, except the unbelivers believe the lie as much as the believers. The great lie is already spread by Satan and most believers and all unbelievers already are decieved by it. This great lie is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth. People love thier fancy cars, trips to the carribean, high def tv's, clothes, shoes, knick knacks in curios, jet ski's and four wheelers, toys, computers, and everything else, MORE than they love God. If they loved God more they wouldn't waste their money on something thats going to be melted with a fervent heat in the last day of the Lord. They would feed the hungry.
Normally, that would be true, but the passage in 2 Thess.2:10 is about the coming of the lawless one . Of which verse 9 says , that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

Lines up with Revelation 13: 12-13 of which 13 says:
He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast.
10. and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11. For that reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false.

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 23rd 2008, 12:22 PM
Hello, Prophecy Countdown! Yay! I have been thinking the same thing about the two witnesses for many years. Do you concur that the other witness might just be Enoch? I think the key that holds these two together is that both were an example of the Rapture--both were taken up to be with the Lord, though they had not died. It is quite possible they will be sent back to earth with God's message for the world and will face their physical deaths during the tribulation period.

Hi there Wombat.:D
You have asked me a question that I like you have thought about for many years and over time have come to the conclusion that it is most probably Elijah and Moses.
However please look at it and let me know if you have more biblical evidence one way or the other.:bounce:
The first question was ‘why two witnesses?’ That was answered by my dear friend Pastor Charles Wheeling from Jemison Alabama.
In reply were the following Bible verses.

Deuteronomy 17: 6. At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Deuteronomy 19: 15. One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Also see Numbers 35: 30.

He cleverly identified the beast as Satan that will kill the to witnesses in Rev 11: 7 and explained how he knew, simply by understanding from which place the beast rose up from compared to the other beast in Daniel 7: 7. Rev13: 1
I understood that the beast in Daniel 7: 7 was associated with the lion, bear, leopard powers.

So I went to Revelation 13: 1. “And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and SAW A BEAST RISE UP OUT OF THE SEA, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.”

I understood reading further into Rev 13 that Satan was to give the beast with the mortal wound power for 42 months.

Well Wombat, the plot thickened when I studied the next verse.
Rev 11: 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast THAT ASCENDED OUT OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Satan was called a murderer from the start, only this time he will prove it to all and being without grace he is under the law and the law will condemn him for murder and when the two witnesses are raised at trumpet 7 they will witness against him.

One of the witnesses, I believe to be Elijah for several reasons.
Notice the Mosaic law is mentioned.

Malachi 4: 4. Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, the statutes and judgments.

5. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and SMITE THE EARTH with a curse.

The other witness I believe is Moses.
Deuteronomy 18: 17. And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Paul makes mention of this also
Acts 7: 37. This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

The Disciple Peter knew their names without being told whilst being at the transfiguration but he never suggested Enoch, Peter was Jewish through and through and knew whom to expect. Like most of the Disciples they and he thought the second advent was to occur within a short time or shortly after their lifetimes.

Matthew 1: 1. And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2.And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

4. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

5. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

6. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7And Jesus came and touched them, and said,Arise, and be not afraid.

8. And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. 9And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

10. And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

11. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

12. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

13. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

John the Baptist heralded Messiah come, and died. As will Elijah and Moses that is where the three are similar of purpose.

John 1: 19. And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

The Jews were searching for answers, people were leaving the padded pews going out into the wilderness, sitting on rocks listening to John the Baptist. So a few were told by the Pharisees and Seduces, to go and find out a few things. So they went and asked John if he were the Christ and of course he replied, ‘I am not the Christ.’

John 1: 20. And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

Now The Jews knew of the books of Deuteronomy and Malachi particularly Deuteronomy 18: 18.And Malachi 4: 5.

So they were not pulling these questions out of thin air and asked John ‘Art thou Elias?’

John 1: 21. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

Ask any Jew about the term who is ‘that prophet’ and he will tell you ‘Moses,’ ask the average Gentile and he would not really understand that.
Also no one asked, to whom do you refer by asking Art thou that prophet? Not even John asked that

The Jews were now getting perplexed, they needed answers to take back and they weren’t getting any. So in frustration asked, who are you and what have you got to say for yourself?

John 1: 22. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?

23. He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
John quoted Isaiah 40: 3, 4.

The Jews knew what to ask for, and wanted that Messiah come and that he would be preceded by Moses called ‘that Prophet’ and Elijah, they did not ask about Enoch and there is no mention of Enoch in scripture that would indicate his return as either of the two witnesses from what I understand.

Moses was raised up after tasting death but Elijah was raised up a living being just like Enoch both not tasting death but it was Elijah and Moses that appeared at the transfiguration, not Enoch.
It was the Jews that were seeking the names Elijah from John the Baptist and Moses referred to as ‘that Prophet’

2 Kings 2: 11. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

12. And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

13. He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;

Genese 5: 24. And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.


Moses was God’s messenger and from God brought havoc on Egypt stopping the rain plagues of locusts hail stones etc and will do it again in Jerusalem.

See Exodus 9 – 12.

Elijah also stopped the rain for 3 ½ years.

James 5: 17. Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

Rev 11: is such an interesting chapter and I admire the bravery of the two Prophets.

That is about the best I can do for you at the moment. I hope it is of some help to you Wombat.:hug:
Your servant in Jesus, PC.

Mograce2U
Jun 23rd 2008, 01:36 PM
PD,
There are also these verses which add a bit more light:

(Mat 11:11-15 KJV) Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. {12} And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. {13} For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. {14} And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. {15} He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

It is the Jews who still say that the actual Elijah must appear, to which idea John's statements clearly refute. Whereas Jesus shows us how we are to understand that he is the one "like" Elijah that the prophet Malachi spoke of. And just like Moses' said that a Prophet "like" him was coming, we see by the voice of God that they heard that Jesus is that Prophet.

The appearance of Elijah and Moses with Jesus on the mount was to speak with Him about His death. This shows us that the law and prophets revealed the cross in the OT. However we might understand these things which Rev 11 points us to by these 2 witnesses, we can be sure that they do. Jesus also said that His 2 witnesses were the works and words which the Father had given Him (John 5:31+). And Rev 19:10 states that the testimony of Jesus was the spirit of prophecy. All of these things are somehow what it is we are to understand in the spiritual view of the events Revelation depicts - which things concern the gospel itself.

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 23rd 2008, 01:46 PM
The name Elijah means literally "Jehovah is God", I can also see by looking at the root words that it could mean "strong in God".

Either way it does not say anywhere is scripture that the 2 witness's need to be Jewish.



Hi Phaeton426. Elijah is a nice name and what a lovely meaning.

Getting back to your second point about the two witnesses not needing to be Jewish maybe a moot point with respect.

I know Moses and Elijah are Jewish and from what I understand they are the two witnesses and the long shot is Enoch, but he is a long shot and he too is Jewish.

I believe all the Prophets were Jewish and written in a Jewish book called the Bible.
As a matter of interest, the parents of the nation of Israel were not Jewish as that nation was not in existence, they were Abraham, who was an Amorite and Sarah was a Hittite both from Ur of the Chaldees, from memory.

I know one thing, the two, Moses and Elijah are not Gentiles so they have to be Jewish. :lol: :rofl:


Any rate we will soon see.
In peace dear Brother, PC.:hug:

wombat
Jun 23rd 2008, 02:30 PM
One of the witnesses, I believe to be Elijah for several reasons.The other witness I believe is Moses. The Disciple Peter knew there names without being told whilst being at the transfiguration but he never suggested Enoch, Peter was Jewish through and through and knew whom to expect.
Thank you for this fascinating information, Prophecy Countdown! The references regarding Peter are some I hadn't considered before, so this has been very interesting to me.

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 24th 2008, 12:16 AM
Thank you for this fascinating information, Prophecy Countdown! The references regarding Peter are some I hadn't considered before, so this has been very interesting to me.

Any time Wombat. :hug:
Take care Brother, PC

theleast
Jun 24th 2008, 12:37 AM
Yes but you still haven't provided scripture that states they must be Jewish. Also...

11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Abraham is the father of all who walk in faith. Prophets do not need to be Jewish, but God decides who is a prophet.

So if two witness's come and you know their witness to be through the Spirit and of Christ, will you ignore them if they are a Gentile? Will you only believe the witness of a Jew?

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 24th 2008, 01:55 AM
Yes but you still haven't provided scripture that states they must be Jewish. Also...

11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Abraham is the father of all who walk in faith. Prophets do not need to be Jewish, but God decides who is a prophet.

So if two witness's come and you know their witness to be through the Spirit and of Christ, will you ignore them if they are a Gentile? Will you only believe the witness of a Jew?

Hi Phaeton426.

Elijah and Moses being the two witnesses are both Jewish and I suspect were both circumcised as well.:lol:


So please, try and live with it dear Brother.:rofl:
In peace PC.

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 24th 2008, 02:16 AM
So if two witness's come and you know their witness to be through the Spirit and of Christ, will you ignore them if they are a Gentile? Will you only believe the witness of a Jew?


If two so called witnesses as you suggest come to me here where I live when they are supposed to be in Jerusalem for 1260 days I will know them as evil.
Also you presume ‘their witness to be through the Spirit and of Christ,’ therefore you may leave yourself wide open to apostasy and I hope that is not the case.

1 Corinthians 11: 12. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

So please, why don’t you tell us who the two witnesses are by simply naming them?



Peace to you brother. PC :hug:

theleast
Jun 24th 2008, 02:54 AM
All I'm saying is let God decide who they are.

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 24th 2008, 07:40 AM
All I'm saying is let God decide who they are.

God has decided who they are already.
Now you seem to argue about that so tell me please, who do you think are the two witnesses? :spin:


Peace to you Brother. PC. :hug:

Wordofthefree
Jun 24th 2008, 11:24 AM
Scripture plainly says God sends the delusion to those who are unbelievers. Why would God send a delusion to believers so that they would believe a lie and not be saved? That's more illogical.
Elect only means "chosen". The Bible does say that God will send a delusion to unbelievers so that they will believe THE lie. Why? Because they chose not to believe the truth. And Who is the truth? Jesus Christ is the truth. The verse says they are not saved before the delusion is sent by God.

I believe an example of it this very thing is in Romans 1:23-24 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptable God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24. Therefore,God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so ..........
Through the rest of the chapter it tells that God gives them over the errors of their unbelief.

The delusion is that they will believe the man of lawlessness really is God! That is the true "falling away". Unbelievers stopping short of true belief so that they finally believe the Lie, that they pay for all eternity. It would not be God's fault but theirs for not loving the truth which would have saved them. That is the one unpardonable sin in my book.
To My Hearts Desire,
Let me get this straight, your saying that the delusion is going to be sent to the unbelievers? The reason being that they will believe the man of lawlessness is god? How does that not also apply to believers? Albeit misinformed believers, and there are ALOT of those. You see, the bible says that many will come in my name saying they are christians or that they are even Jesus himself. They try to lead believers astray and unbelievers alike, so I'm sorry but I don't agree with you at all on this. The lie will apply to all who believe the lie, and then strong delusion will be sent to those who have done nothing to escape the lie I.E. "read the bible for yourself" and at least try and figure it out yourself. I know I may not be right on some things, but it doesn't stop me from reading the bible and trying to understand every verse as best I can.

theleast
Jun 24th 2008, 12:33 PM
God has decided who they are already.
Now you seem to argue about that so tell me please, who do you think are the two witnesses? :spin:


Peace to you Brother. PC. :hug:

The two witnesses are whoever God choose them to be. There is no more Jew or Gentile.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1 Corinthians+12:13&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1 Corinthians+12&version=9)
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 01:36 PM
The two witnesses are whoever God choose them to be. There is no more Jew or Gentile.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1%20Corinthians+ 12:13&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1%20Corinthians+ 12&version=9)
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


Good point.....:idea:

peaceandlove,

janet

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 25th 2008, 11:48 AM
phaeton426;1682658]Yes but you still haven't provided scripture that states they must be Jewish.
Phaeton 426 you first asked that question of Wombat.


Then you asked me the same question.




“Who said the two witness's had to be jewish? I don't see that in scripture anywhere.”
Then you asked this of me.
Phaeton


“Yes but you still haven't provided scripture that states they must be Jewish.”

I never said that they HAD to be Jewish, just that the two witnesses were Elijah and Moses who are Jewish. Deut 18: 18 Malachi 4: 5


Your following remark I consider racist! :(

Phaeton
So if two witness's come and you know their witness to be through the Spirit and of Christ, will you ignore them if they are a Gentile? Will you only believe the witness of a Jew?
The Disciples were Jews Jesus was born a Jew. The Bible is a Jewish book about Jewish customs. I would suggest you think twice before you suggest things inappropriately to me.:note:
It makes no difference to me what a man is Jew or Gentile.
PC

theleast
Jun 25th 2008, 12:20 PM
Hi Phaeton426.

Elijah and Moses being the two witnesses are both Jewish and I suspect were both circumcised as well.:lol:


So please, try and live with it dear Brother.:rofl:
In peace PC.

So then what was this remark about?

I never implied at all you are racist, I don't know where you get that from. In fact from this post it seems to me that you are looking up to Jewish prophets. The Jewish prophets are the reason why we have the scriptures that we have today, they were good men.

Why are you so angry friend? I'm just making a point that nobody should be putting their own labels on anything and let God decide.

theleast
Jun 25th 2008, 12:23 PM
It makes no difference to me what a man is Jew or Gentile.
PC

Ah good then we are agreed the two witnesses don't need to be Jewish.

Glad that's behind us. ;)

Now back to the topic of the thread.

End times preperation is about following Christs two commandments.

Peace.

jewel4Christ
Jun 25th 2008, 03:12 PM
Elijah and Moses being the two witnesses are both Jewish and I suspect were both circumcised as wellHow do you know that the two witnesses in the END times are Elijah and Moses? That is one interpretation....it is not the only one.

I think this is why this thread got off course...you are saying there is no other option, eh?


God has had His witnesses throughout church history, in fact, any true christian is a "witness"..from God.

He has called all of us to witnesses of His grace/mercy/love...and, truth...in general.

Even from the beginning, God uses the term "witnesses" to be a term that would DEMAND at least two.

De 19:15


"A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.

So, we see that the term only relates to how God uses His people to confirm truth, for example...

Of course, we all know that there are false witnesses, and that they abound.

Ps 27:12 Do not deliver me over to the desire of my adversaries, For false witnesses have risen against me, And such as breathe out violence.

So, we can see that to be able to know the difference, we can look at fruit. Does the witness speak and draw out violence, or do they speak of love and mercy, and grace, and love towards all men, for this is what God commands.."love your neighbor as yourself".

No one would ever want to bring violence against himself...so, we can look for fruit in this way.

Here is just one example of a true witness:

Isa 8:2 "And I will take to Myself faithful witnesses for testimony, Uriah the priest and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah...

Of which niether were Elijah, or Moses, although, they too, were faithful witnesses. The point I am trying to make I guess is that we cannot decide that the two witnesses MUST be Elijah and Moses, for God has His true witnesses, even today...alive on this earth, doing and speaking the grace, and mercy, and love of God, without violence that leads to death, and hate for one's neighbors.

..and, God speaks of all of us in this fashion, especially of the time of the end:

Isaiah 43:8-13 [ Verse 10 in Original: Hebrew (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=isa+43:10&it=nas&ot=bhs&nt=na&sr=1&l=en) / Greek (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=isa+43:10&it=nas&ot=lxx&nt=na&sr=1&l=en) ]
[ Read Chapter (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=isa+43&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en) | Discuss these Verses (http://www.studylight.org/forums/posting.php?mode=newtopic&f=12&subject=Isaiah+43:8-13) ] 8 Bring out the people who are blind, R1691 even though they have eyes, And the deaf, even though they have ears. 9 All the nations have gathered R1692 together So that the peoples may be assembled. Who among them can declare R1693 this And proclaim to us the former things? Let them present their R1694 witnesses that R1695 they may be justified, Or let them hear and say, "It is true." 10 "You are My R1696 witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My R1697 servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I R1698 am He. Before R1699 Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. 11 "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior R1700 besides R1701 Me. 12 "It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange R1702 god among you; So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And I am God. 13 "Even from R1703F617 eternity I R1704 am He, And there is none R1705 who can deliver out of My hand; I R1706 act and who can reverse it?



"Yet, in the world today, we have many men whom think they are saviors of the world, to lead men and woman to some safe place, but in reality, they are nothing, they are men. We need to trust in God for our "everything", and if we do not, we are allowing the flesh, even if it is the flesh of other men to bring us what only belongs to God! He is a jealous God, and He is about to allow the world to find out just how much...He despises pretense, and those whom have exalted their flesh to the place of God.

Isa 44:9 Those who fashion a graven image are all of them futile, and their precious things are of no profit; even their own witnesses fail to see or know, so that they will be put to shame.

Here we have the image that revelation speaks of...it is the image of the beast..and, many are worshipping it, putting and placing their trust in men, rather than submitting to God alone for their peace/rest and salvation.


peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 25th 2008, 03:26 PM
continuing....

Acts 1:8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

All of us, not just Elijah and Moses...so, with this thought in mind, the two witnesses of the end times does not have to be a couple of resurected saints, come back to give witness, but could be any of us...in that day.

Acts 5:32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

"obeying the commandments...love God with your whole heart and your neighbor as yourself"...

Acts 13:31 and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people.

2 cor 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. EVERY FACT IS TO BE CONFIRMED BY THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES.


Rev 11:3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.

The world will hate us, and will kill us, thinking that they do God service...beware, of such men.

peaceandlove,

janet

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 25th 2008, 04:40 PM
So then what was this remark about?
I never implied at all you are racist,

I never said you did.


I don't know where you get that from.
It obviously came from your own over active imagination.


In fact from this post it seems to me that you are looking up to Jewish prophets. Old Testament Prophets yes and many more from the New Testament Prophets including Peter, Paul, John the Baptist. The Disciple John, Matthew, Mark, Luke, The Lord Jesus. Timothy, just to name a few.



The Jewish prophets are the reason why we have the scriptures that we have today, they were good men.

Well why don’t you listen to Daniel and the rest of them for a change my dear friend?


Why are you so angry friend?
Come on. You are surely joking, how could anyone get angry with you? :kiss:



I'm just making a point that nobody should be putting their own labels on anything and let God decide.
Nobody I know puts their own labels on God.

I said to you
“It makes no difference to me what a man is Jew or Gentile.”

Unfortunately you don't seem to be following the reality of what I said and in your bewilderment misconstrue with your following misrepresentation.


Ah good then we are agreed the two witnesses don't need to be Jewish.
How sad that you seem to be deluding yourself, I have never agreed to that last statement.

Let me repeat what I said on many occasions about the two witnesses, in the vain hope, it seems that you may somehow comprehend the reality of it.

Please Understand THE TWO WITNESSES ARE JEWISH AND ARE NOT, I REPEAT NOT GENTILES.
THE TWO WITNESSES ARE ELIJAH AND MOSES and if you can
bear it are probably circumcised, so be a good man to reality


Glad that's behind us.

Yes I am pleased that you are fully aware of the scriptures regarding the two witnesses and like me agree with scripture and that you understand that Elijah and Moses are Jewish and that the two witnesses are to appear for 1260 days in Jerusalem and are to be murdered just 3 ½ days before the last trump of God.
Well I’m so very glade we sorted that out it took you a long time but you got there in the end, what a miracle.


Now back to the topic of the thread.
No, I don’t think so.


End times preperation is about following Christs two commandments.
Joe King started this thread and knows the subject matter. Let people decide how they want to prepare and leave them in peace.



peace :rofl: You don't really mean that do you. :rofl:

theleast
Jun 25th 2008, 04:50 PM
I never said you did.



It obviously came from your own over active imagination.


Old Testament Prophets yes and many more from the New Testament Prophets including Peter, Paul, John the Baptist. The Disciple John, Matthew, Mark, Luke, The Lord Jesus. Timothy, just to name a few.






Well why don’t you listen to Daniel and the rest of them for a change my dear friend?


You are joking, how could anyone get angry with you dear friend? :kiss:



Nobody I know puts their own labels on God.



I said quote “It makes no difference to me what a man is Jew or Gentile.”

Unfortunately you don't seem to be following the reality od what I said and in your bewilderment misconstrue with the following misrepresentation.

Ah good then we are agreed the two witnesses don't need to be Jewish.

How sad that you seem to be deluding yourself, I have never agreed to that idea of yours.

Let me repeat what I said on many occasions about the two witnesses, in the vain hope, it seems that you may somehow comprehend the reality of it.

Please Understand THE TWO WITNESSES ARE JEWISH AND ARE NOT, I REPEAT NOT GENTILES.
THE TWO WITNESSES ARE ELIJAH AND MOSES and if you can
bear it are probably circumcised, so be a good man to reality





Yes I am pleased that you are fully aware of the scriptures regarding the two witnesses and like me agree with scripture and that you understand that Elijah and Moses are Jewish and that the two witnesses are to appear for 1260 days in Jerusalem and are to be murdered just 3 ½ days before the last trump of God.
Well I’m so very glade we sorted that out it took you a long time but you got there in the end, what a miracle.


No, I don’t think so. I think I have been ear bashed for long enough.
No, it is not about that.
Joe King started this thread and knows the subject matter. Let people decide how they want to prepare and leave them in peace.


:rofl: You don't really mean that do you. :rofl:

Sorry for misunderstanding your comment about racism.

Like I said there is no Jew or Gentile.

Please let go of your anger toward me for I harbor none toward you.

Peace

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 26th 2008, 12:07 AM
Hi Phaeton426


Will you only believe the witness of a Jew?

You mean only believe in Jesus who was born a Jew and the Jewish Prophets of the Old Testaments and the Jewish Disciples? Yes of course I do.


Prophets do not need to be Jewish, but God decides who is a prophet.

Yes He does. OK, name a Gentile Prophet from scripture? The only Gentile that wrote in the Bible was king Nebuchadezzar and he was not a Prophet.
There will be Gentile Prophets when Joel 2: 28 begins but the time is not quite there yet.


Why are you so angry friend?

I am saddened that you feel that about me. I thought you were angry toward me.


Please let go of your anger toward me for I harbor none toward you.

I feel no animosity toward you whatsoever however I feel you are really upset at me deep down. Do you want to let it all out at me I don’t mind I have a thick skin.:hug:

Please go in peace and don’t feel so angry within yourself, learn to be biblically forceful in discussion but calm in spirit and love everyone, because without love we are lost.


In peace PC

theleast
Jun 26th 2008, 12:17 AM
I'm afraid you are misunderstanding my posts. Unfortunatly the internet doesn't translate emotion very well. I was never angry, but I am abrupt.

I am just saying that by insisting that the two witness's need to be Jewish you may be in error.

I am quite well read concerning the bible and the Spirit has revealed unto me many truths through God's wisdom and Christs sacrifice.

I have no racism in my heart and if the two witness's are jewish then it's God's will and I'll take joy in that. If the two witness's are gentile, it's God's will and I'll take joy in that.

Peace....and yes I mean it. :spin:

fewarechosen
Jun 26th 2008, 12:29 AM
prophecy here is the question phaeton asked and how you answerd

Quote:
Will you only believe the witness of a Jew?
You mean only believe in Jesus who was born a Jew and the Jewish Prophets of the Old Testaments and the Jewish Disciples? Yes of course I do.
------------------------------------------------------------

he was asking if someone witnesses god to you will you only believe him if he is a jew ?

by your answer it seems you might have misunderstood the question.


also to help clear up my confusion what scripture are you refering to when you say the 2 end times prophets will be elijah and moses ?

Joe King
Jun 26th 2008, 05:52 PM
What happened to my thread:confused

:lol::lol::spin:

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 27th 2008, 04:57 AM
prophecy here is the question phaeton asked and how you answerd

Quote:
Will you only believe the witness of a Jew?
You mean only believe in Jesus who was born a Jew and the Jewish Prophets of the Old Testaments and the Jewish Disciples? Yes of course I do.
------------------------------------------------------------

he was asking if someone witnesses god to you will you only believe him if he is a jew ?

by your answer it seems you might have misunderstood the question.


also to help clear up my confusion what scripture are you refering to when you say the 2 end times prophets will be elijah and moses ?

No Brother fewarechosen I understood the implication in that question immediately.

I was making a point. Phaeton426 keeps implying that I ‘insist that Prophets be Jewish’ and that is not what I have ever ‘insisted’ or implied and have told him so a few times, please check right back through my posts.

So there is more to that question than meets the eye and also within my answer than maybe you realise, with the greatest of respect to you.


also to help clear up my confusion what scripture are you refering to when you say the 2 end times prophets will be elijah and moses ?Please go to page 11. Post 164 you will find a quick study in reply to dear Brother Wombat, who also studied that aspect and came to the same conclusion.

By the way fewarechosen, thank you for post 54 on page 4. Your answer hit the nail right on the head

Let me just say that if you do decide to go back quite a few posts and follow my discourse with Phaeton426, you will see he changes and twists what I actually say, and as a result the implication is implied that my supposed statement’s about the two witnesses are not credible.
I have yet to meet preterists that don’t use those techniques.

So I know exactly what Phaeton426 implies in that question. Quote ; Will you only believe the witness of a Jew?
I was making a point. In the way I answered him.
If you follow back through the discussion you will see that I am dealing with a full on preterist as is moregrace2U and phaeton426, just see their posts.

He knows that I have never ‘insisted ‘that the two witnesses have to be of Jewish origin.’ That is why I want you to go back and check me out on this.
But the implied suggestion in his following statement suggests that I did.

Phaeton426 “I am just saying that by insisting that the two witness's need to be Jewish you may be in error.”

How can I be in error if I didn’t say it?

However as I believe that Elijah and Moses are the two witnesses of Rev 11 and understanding as every other person here should that Elijah and Moses happen to be Jewish, then I am not going to say that the two witnesses could be of the Gentiles.

The patterns are the same with preterists and so we get the (didn’t really mean to) mis-quotes and personal questions that even imply that I am angry from Phaeton426?

Phaeton426
‘Why are you so angry friend?’

Phaeton426
‘Please let go of your anger toward me for I harbor none toward you.

So to stop that going any further, I returned the compliment and it worked.

This as you can see was his reply. What a shame He didn't consider that 'the internet doesn't translate emmotion very well; before he sent the above last anger insinuations out about me


Phaeton426
I'm afraid you are misunderstanding my posts. Unfortunatly the internet doesn't translate emotion very well. I was never angry, but I am abrupt.
Preterists think that they are so very right and are outstandingly knowledgeable and they don’t mind telling me either and they don’t forget to try and clinch the deal by suggesting ‘that the Spirit has revealed unto them many truths.’



haeton426,
I am quite well read concerning the bible and the Spirit has revealed unto me many truths through God's wisdom and Christs sacrifice.
You may think me hard fewarechosen, but these people get onto threads and destroy something beautiful, the spirit of prophecy reaction through faith in response to Matthew 24: particularly verse 15 onwards and in Daniel.

Simply look at the wonderful people’s motivation at the beginning of this thread of dear Brother Joe Kings’.

They are more concerned about others than themselves regarding the tribulation.
Yes they are frightened and I am sure they all earnestly pray but there is still the care and prayers firstly for others.

However those telling people that we can sit back and do nothing on a preterist preconceived idea that the tribulation is a done deal in 70AD is dangerous.
Then there are others that say ‘don’t worry we are going to be lifted up out of the tribulation.’ and as a result some poor souls are going to sleep walk themselves right into a living nightmare, so excuse me if I forget to be gentle with these dangerous people.:help:

By the way just for the record as you no doubt know, we are told that the words of the book of Daniel will be sealed and not understood until ‘the time of the end’ being the 2300 ereb boqer of Daniel 8 and I am acutely aware of that fact and as such I claim the right to be wrong.
Maranatha PC :hug:

Prophecy Countdown
Jun 27th 2008, 08:49 AM
What happened to my thread:confused

:lol::lol::spin:

Hi Joe, this is an excellent thread.

So you ask what is happening to your thread, where you had folk writing in that had never ever done so before and others telling you that they are back with Jesus and are preparing.

That dear friend was a wonderful thing to read how they had started or were going to start gardening and help others by sharing their produce and some ladies said how they loved gardening.
For a brief moment the camaraderie was so pleasant.

I went back to the beginning of this thread and read them through and was enthralled by the enthusiasm and cohesiveness of such lovely souls. Try it Joe it is a real eye opener.

I am proud to call them and you my Brothers and Sisters.
We may not agree on everything but there was that connection called faith by which we were walking and talking and preparing.

So what happened to this site that turned it from how we can survive and grow things from our gardens and how we CAN freely speak about how to provide water from our dear Lord’s given rain and food through nurtured soils?

This place is where we can share how to bake bread on a home made brick oven and go out amongst the homegrown garden vegetables and bottle our own produce?
Also how we could swap produce and give some away during these soon coming times we sometimes fear.
And what about the gas BBQ Joe? Have you noticed the price of LPG? Grief, so take the iron top off it and turn it into a wood fired BBQ it is not that difficult.

To all those interested, you can get to the stage of going out and tasting fruits that have not been genetically altered from your own trees fairly quickly and there is such goodness in sweet Almonds and walnuts and did you know you can buy Blackberries without sharp thorns.

This is a good site Joe and so is Heaven, but unfortunately wars do break out and so we are called to refine define and defend Godly principals that we hold dear.

With a convincing convicting converting message and what better way than here on your thread from those that tell a tale of preparation through faith.

Joe we are in this together with our dear Lord and the Ancient of Days with the help of our Comforter, Holy Spirit and all around us are our families and a lot more people than we realize are reading this.
I hope they have the courage to ignore negativity and tell their stories to strengthen us all.:pray:
So please no more preterists telling us what we should believe or shouldn’t do.:rolleyes:


We grow more everyday.:lol: :rofl:

theleast
Jun 27th 2008, 04:44 PM
No Brother fewarechosen I understood the implication in that question immediately.

I was making a point. Phaeton426 keeps implying that I ‘insist that Prophets be Jewish’ and that is not what I have ever ‘insisted’ or implied and have told him so a few times, please check right back through my posts.

So there is more to that question than meets the eye and also within my answer than maybe you realise, with the greatest of respect to you.

Please go to page 11. Post 164 you will find a quick study in reply to dear Brother Wombat, who also studied that aspect and came to the same conclusion.

By the way fewarechosen, thank you for post 54 on page 4. Your answer hit the nail right on the head

Let me just say that if you do decide to go back quite a few posts and follow my discourse with Phaeton426, you will see he changes and twists what I actually say, and as a result the implication is implied that my supposed statement’s about the two witnesses are not credible.
I have yet to meet preterists that don’t use those techniques.

So I know exactly what Phaeton426 implies in that question. Quote ; Will you only believe the witness of a Jew?
I was making a point. In the way I answered him.
If you follow back through the discussion you will see that I am dealing with a full on preterist as is moregrace2U and phaeton426, just see their posts.

He knows that I have never ‘insisted ‘that the two witnesses have to be of Jewish origin.’ That is why I want you to go back and check me out on this.
But the implied suggestion in his following statement suggests that I did.

Phaeton426 “I am just saying that by insisting that the two witness's need to be Jewish you may be in error.”

How can I be in error if I didn’t say it?

However as I believe that Elijah and Moses are the two witnesses of Rev 11 and understanding as every other person here should that Elijah and Moses happen to be Jewish, then I am not going to say that the two witnesses could be of the Gentiles.

The patterns are the same with preterists and so we get the (didn’t really mean to) mis-quotes and personal questions that even imply that I am angry from Phaeton426?

Phaeton426
‘Why are you so angry friend?’

Phaeton426
‘Please let go of your anger toward me for I harbor none toward you.

So to stop that going any further, I returned the compliment and it worked.

This as you can see was his reply. What a shame He didn't consider that 'the internet doesn't translate emmotion very well; before he sent the above last anger insinuations out about me

Preterists think that they are so very right and are outstandingly knowledgeable and they don’t mind telling me either and they don’t forget to try and clinch the deal by suggesting ‘that the Spirit has revealed unto them many truths.’

You may think me hard fewarechosen, but these people get onto threads and destroy something beautiful, the spirit of prophecy reaction through faith in response to Matthew 24: particularly verse 15 onwards and in Daniel.

Simply look at the wonderful people’s motivation at the beginning of this thread of dear Brother Joe Kings’.

They are more concerned about others than themselves regarding the tribulation.
Yes they are frightened and I am sure they all earnestly pray but there is still the care and prayers firstly for others.

However those telling people that we can sit back and do nothing on a preterist preconceived idea that the tribulation is a done deal in 70AD is dangerous.
Then there are others that say ‘don’t worry we are going to be lifted up out of the tribulation.’ and as a result some poor souls are going to sleep walk themselves right into a living nightmare, so excuse me if I forget to be gentle with these dangerous people.:help:

By the way just for the record as you no doubt know, we are told that the words of the book of Daniel will be sealed and not understood until ‘the time of the end’ being the 2300 ereb boqer of Daniel 8 and I am acutely aware of that fact and as such I claim the right to be wrong.
Maranatha PC :hug:












I am no preterist. Yes the 70 A.D prophecy of Daniel was fulfilled in Christ. But there are many prophecies that are not. The great tribulation is still in front of us, is at the very door in fact. The Day of the Lord's judgement on Babylon, and upon the whore, and upon the beasts also still to come. How does that make me a preterist?

Your assumptions about me, and your in sinuation that I do not have the Spirit, are in poor taste friend. Your posts have been very direct and seem very angry toward me simply because I point out that your belief that the two witness's will be Jewish is fallicious. There is no more Jew or Greek.

Peace.

quiet dove
Jun 27th 2008, 06:16 PM
What happened to my thread:confused

:lol::lol::spin:

At this point I am not real sure just where this thread got off track, but since it is so far removed from the OP at this point I am going to close it.