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ChristianKnight
Jun 10th 2008, 12:41 PM
Questions about Judaism, and its followers.

1. What is with the hats?

2. What is the thing with the little curls on the side?

3. Why are they god's chosen people? I mean, if we worship the true religion, why aren't we? (not trying to sound greedy, but I don't get it)

4. Didn't they kill Jesus? (I know the Romans killed him physically)

5. In the end, will they go to heaven, or hell?

6. Are they allies in the religion or enemy?

7. Aren't they our enemy cause I remember Jesus sayign something like (if your not with me, your against me)

8. The beanie hat things?

daughter
Jun 10th 2008, 12:58 PM
Read the Old Testament, then you'll understand the hats, and the ringlets.

I've not met a living Jew who "killed Jesus." Have you? If you're a white person, do you feel personally responsible for the slave trade? That was a more recent crime, yet most white people get annoyed when told they are "guilty" of the slave trade. So, next time you see a Jew, don't go "Christ killer" in your head. We're ALL Christ killers... every single one of us hates Him before He saves us, so the Jews are no worse than we are.

By the way... Jesus will have worn His hair like a modern Orthodox Jew... He was born Jewish, and one only had to look at Him to know He was a Jew... remember the Samaritan woman knew He was Jewish at first sight. Maybe His hair gave Him away? Jews wear their hair and hats that way to honour God, as it is how they interpret the Laws of Moses, which you'll find in the first five books of your Bible. Not saying one has to grow ringlets, or wear a hat... obviously not... but if someone does something to honour God... and I believe some of them genuinely do, then who are we to sneer at them? I wouldn't dare sneer at someone who is trying to serve God to the best of their knowledge... even if they don't yet know Who God is.

ChristianKnight
Jun 10th 2008, 01:12 PM
Read the Old Testament, then you'll understand the hats, and the ringlets.

I've not met a living Jew who "killed Jesus." Have you? If you're a white person, do you feel personally responsible for the slave trade? That was a more recent crime, yet most white people get annoyed when told they are "guilty" of the slave trade. So, next time you see a Jew, don't go "Christ killer" in your head. We're ALL Christ killers... every single one of us hates Him before He saves us, so the Jews are no worse than we are.

By the way... Jesus will have worn His hair like a modern Orthodox Jew... He was born Jewish, and one only had to look at Him to know He was a Jew... remember the Samaritan woman knew He was Jewish at first sight. Maybe His hair gave Him away? Jews wear their hair and hats that way to honour God, as it is how they interpret the Laws of Moses, which you'll find in the first five books of your Bible. Not saying one has to grow ringlets, or wear a hat... obviously not... but if someone does something to honour God... and I believe some of them genuinely do, then who are we to sneer at them? I wouldn't dare sneer at someone who is trying to serve God to the best of their knowledge... even if they don't yet know Who God is.

Well, you didn't answer most of the questions, and I think you assumed I call them Christ Killers, but besides that. I never said that the individual jew did kill Christ, but wasn't it the Jews that betrayed him?

Revinius
Jun 11th 2008, 07:09 AM
It was humanity that betrayed Him mate, he died for all humanity and not just Jews.

They are the chosen since Genesis and its not until the new covenant that Gods chosen are all those who have faith. But salvation come first for the Jew then for the Gentile (us). Those that have faith amongst the Jews have been promised a redeemer and the redemption is first for them. But God in his infinate mercy and love extended salvation to all that would trust in Him (even my disgusting self). Christ came to be a light unto the world, something that the Jews failed in their role. But all people shall bow to Him at the end of days and all who seek Him will find Him.

daughter
Jun 11th 2008, 07:43 AM
Well, you didn't answer most of the questions, and I think you assumed I call them Christ Killers, but besides that. I never said that the individual jew did kill Christ, but wasn't it the Jews that betrayed him?
I didn't answer most of the questions, because the answers are in the Bible. You didn't call them "Christ Killers" - but you did adopt a tone which I found quite shocking... the idea that "they" killed Jesus got my hackles up. You don't have to call someone a particular name in order to hold them in contempt, and your post read somewhat aggressively, and also, as though you resented them for being God's chosen people.

They cover their heads as a sign of respect showing they are under the authority of God.

Orthodox Jews grow their locks long because Moses left it as a commandment... so that they would constantly remember God, there was always a physical reminder.

They are God's Chosen people because He chose them... that should be enough.

Christians are grafted onto Israel.

At the moment there is still enmity between Christians and Jews, though the wounds of seperation are healing.

In the future we will be reconciled.

We, as Christians, are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and are to bless Israel and the offspring of Abraham, because God commands it.

Naphal
Jun 11th 2008, 10:26 AM
Questions about Judaism, and its followers.

1. What is with the hats?

It's just tradition related to simplicity. It's like what the Amish do.




2. What is the thing with the little curls on the side?

I believe it is based on this:


Leviticus 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.




3. Why are they god's chosen people? I mean, if we worship the true religion, why aren't we? (not trying to sound greedy, but I don't get it)

God chose Israel to be his chosen but they preferred other gods so God divorced them and the covenant was ended but a new one was made in it's place that invited a new people to be God's chosen as well as any of the former who chose to accept the Messiah.



4. Didn't they kill Jesus? (I know the Romans killed him physically)

Yes.


Matthew 26:59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;

John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

John 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Acts 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Acts 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.




5. In the end, will they go to heaven, or hell?

Well, it is the same for Jews as it is for all peoples. In Christ one is saved, without Christ you are not saved.



6. Are they allies in the religion or enemy?

A little of both I guess. They share many of the same beliefs regarding the OT only but the rejection of the NT makes the religion just as incorrect as any religion which does not have Christ as it's God and Saviour.




7. Aren't they our enemy cause I remember Jesus sayign something like (if your not with me, your against me)

Well, by that definition all non Christians are enemies but I don't see Judaism as the direct enemy it was in the earlier days of Christianity.


8. The beanie hat things?

Talmudic (non biblical) tradition.

pinky
Jun 11th 2008, 12:38 PM
I agree with pretty much all of what Naphal has said here........except for one thing.......



I don't see Judaism as the direct enemy it was in the earlier days of Christianity.



Personally, I think it is still very much a 'direct enemy' ...........and the greatest religious threat to Christianity today................. for many, many reasons.

Peace and love in defending the Gospel of Truth,
pinky

Revinius
Jun 11th 2008, 01:37 PM
I dont see any unification as daughter hopes. Your either with Christ or your with something else. Whether you think this is genuinely God or not is beside the point (Muslims say they believe in the 'real' God). Not all three Semitic faiths can be true at the same time, and as a Christian i am adamant that Christ is the only way to the father.

daughter
Jun 11th 2008, 01:42 PM
What I mean is that in the future they will see Christ, and mourn for Him as for an only child. It is prophesied that Israel will accept Christ, and I look forward to that day.

Revinius
Jun 11th 2008, 04:13 PM
Its prophecied that all will bow in the end of days. 'Israel' changes with the new covenant too (regardless of what some Zionists on the board think).

th1bill
Jun 11th 2008, 08:12 PM
Questions about Judaism, and its followers.

1. What is with the hats?

2. What is the thing with the little curls on the side?
... Just as daughter has spoken, study will be the best answer of these questions or it might be that Fenris will choose to amnswer, he is certainly qualified to do so and I am not.


3. Why are they god's chosen people? I mean, if we worship the true religion, why aren't we? (not trying to sound greedy, but I don't get it)
... Because God, in His wisdom, chose them, not us. But the fact that we are not His Chosen but are, instead, His Adopted Children is indeed a better position to find one's self in. In Common Law (written from the understanding of the Biblical Principals) the Natural Child, the Jew, can be disinherited. The Adopted Child, that's us, can never be denied their inheritance.
... Now be careful, God has promised to never forsake His chosen, don't find yourself going there.


4. Didn't they kill Jesus? (I know the Romans killed him physically)
... Not any more so than we did. Jesus died for their sins just as He did for yours.


5. In the end, will they go to heaven, or hell?
... Not being equal to God, I do nopt make that decision.


6. Are they allies in the religion or enemy?
... It is known as the Judea Christian Bible for a very good reason. Christianity is so deeply rooted in Judaism that the first Christians were Jews. This them or us distraction has kept millions of Jewish people from being converted, possibly billions. We are the enemy of Satan, he is their enemy also.


7. Aren't they our enemy cause I remember Jesus sayign something like (if your not with me, your against me)
... And millions of Jewish men and women are Messianic Jews. How many billions of us, the gentile races, are against the Christ? You don't want to just give up you brother or your sister or your uncle to Satan, do you? Why disobey God and pry for the destruction of Jerusalem?


8. The beanie hat things?
Once more I'll suggest you study the Old Testament or ask Fenris, he's really not your enemy.

Naphal
Jun 12th 2008, 02:19 AM
What I mean is that in the future they will see Christ, and mourn for Him as for an only child. It is prophesied that Israel will accept Christ, and I look forward to that day.

Well, Israel has accepted Christ....not all racial Israelites have but many have as well as many many gentiles grafted onto true Israel...but there is no prophecy I know of that says all of racial Israel will accept Jesus as the Messiah...I wish for it, but I don't believe that shall occur.

Revinius
Jun 12th 2008, 08:28 AM
Well, Israel has accepted Christ....not all racial Israelites have but many have as well as many many gentiles grafted onto true Israel...but there is no prophecy I know of that says all of racial Israel will accept Jesus as the Messiah...I wish for it, but I don't believe that shall occur.

Yup as Paul says in Romans 11:23-24.

Toymom
Jun 13th 2008, 03:28 PM
Questions about Judaism, and its followers.

1. What is with the hats?

8. The beanie hat things?
Are you asking about hats and then also about kippas?
The Kippa, or Yarmulke is the beanie thing. It is my understanding that the word Yarmulke is from two words that are something like yaru and malke (I am sure I got the spellings totally wrong) and they mean to fear, and king, so a yarmulke is worn to show fear of or respect for the Lord.





3. Why are they god's chosen people? I mean, if we worship the true religion, why aren't we? (not trying to sound greedy, but I don't get it)



The Jews are God's chosen people because that is who He chose.
I personally don't worship a religion.
I worship God.


4. Didn't they kill Jesus? (I know the Romans killed him physically)

Jesus's death was all part of His plan.
If He did not go into the earth as the one grain and die then the many grains could not have been produced.
So, if He had not died, then your "true religion that you worship" would not exist.


5. In the end, will they go to heaven, or hell?

6. Are they allies in the religion or enemy?

7. Aren't they our enemy cause I remember Jesus sayign something like (if your not with me, your against me)

In the end, we will all be one in Christ as part of the New Jerusalem.
The Lord loves all of us - both Jews and gentiles and His enemy is Satan who He has defeated and will defeat.

DadBurnett
Jun 20th 2008, 04:51 AM
I couldn’t resist – hey fellow Christians, what's with the choir robes? What's with minister’s who wear clergy robes and/or some kind of special collar?
A thought about the “chosen people.” In Jewish writings I’ve read and in discussions with a Rabbi, chosen does not mean that whey were better than all other people, not alone subject to God’s special favors … they were selected by God to come under the Law and the inherent judgments of the law. A bit like, I think, Adam and Eve who lived under the Law, “thou shalt not eat of the tree of the knowledge of …” Who knows, the Creator may have simply decided it was time to again put the “created” to the test, to see if humanity had learned from the experience of being cast out of the Garden. So, the Israelites were chosen …
About Jews killing Jesus … Ya, sure, like Americans are killers of Muslims and Native Americans, and … I simply don’t get the logic or rational that seeks to hold a people or religious group guilty of the Death of Jesus. In fact … didn’t Jesus die for OUR sins? How can we possibly place the blame on any others?
Will they go to heaven or hell? Like Christians, some who profess Christ will go to hell and some will go to heaven. The God I know and serve will make allowances for those who lived and died before Jesus – how could he not?

Literalist-Luke
Jun 26th 2008, 04:42 PM
1. What is with the hats?I'm not familiar with the details myself, but here is an encyclopedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarmulke) that will probably give you more information that you bargained for. :)
2. What is the thing with the little curls on the side?What little curls? I'm not sure what you're referring to. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/39.gif
3. Why are they god's chosen people? I mean, if we worship the true religion, why aren't we? (not trying to sound greedy, but I don't get it)Being God's "chosen people" is a curse as well as a blessing. Being God's chosen people means they are the people through whom most of the Bible was transmitted to us, plus they are the people from whom the Messiah came, among other things. However, being God's chosen people also means they have been directly targeted by Satan throughout their history for genocidal destruction. One of Satan's primary goals is to obliterate the Jews from the planet. Consequently, no people in all of history has been as hounded or as persecuted as have the Jews. No one people has had anywhere near as many attempts to wipe them out as an entire race as have the Jews. The very fact they are still alive and well in spite of that is a strong evidence for the Truth of the Bible.
4. Didn't they kill Jesus? (I know the Romans killed him physically)The individuals alive at the time did indeed send Jesus to His death, and the entire nation was judged for it in the dispersion of 70 AD.
5. In the end, will they go to heaven, or hell?Just as with us, that depends on their choice regarding Who Jesus is.
6. Are they allies in the religion or enemy?Romans 11:28 - "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs."
7. Aren't they our enemy cause I remember Jesus sayign something like (if your not with me, your against me)Individuals who oppose Christ as the Messiah are our enemies, but individuals who accept Him (of which there are thousands even at this very moment) are our brothers/sisters.
8. The beanie hat things?Hope you'll find your answers in this encyclopedia article. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarmulke)

Literalist-Luke
Jun 26th 2008, 04:47 PM
Read the Old Testament, then you'll understand the hats, and the ringlets.I personally don't have time to just casually read the entire Old Testament today. Do you?
I've not met a living Jew who "killed Jesus." Have you? If you're a white person, do you feel personally responsible for the slave trade? That was a more recent crime, yet most white people get annoyed when told they are "guilty" of the slave trade. So, next time you see a Jew, don't go "Christ killer" in your head. We're ALL Christ killers... every single one of us hates Him before He saves us, so the Jews are no worse than we are.Considering that the Roman Catholic Church's official position has been for centuries (and still is) that a practicing Jew is without place in God's plans, it's a question that we should not shrink from answering. There is a day coming again when killing a Jew will be seen as a good thing, so we must patiently educate everyone we can that they are just as legitimate in God's eyes as anybody else.
By the way... Jesus will have worn His hair like a modern Orthodox Jew... He was born Jewish, and one only had to look at Him to know He was a Jew... remember the Samaritan woman knew He was Jewish at first sight. Maybe His hair gave Him away? Jews wear their hair and hats that way to honour God, as it is how they interpret the Laws of Moses, which you'll find in the first five books of your Bible. Not saying one has to grow ringlets, or wear a hat... obviously not... but if someone does something to honour God... and I believe some of them genuinely do, then who are we to sneer at them? I wouldn't dare sneer at someone who is trying to serve God to the best of their knowledge... even if they don't yet know Who God is.I didn't take Christian Knight's questions as sneering. Seemed like he was just asking a question.....

Literalist-Luke
Jun 26th 2008, 04:52 PM
I didn't answer most of the questions, because the answers are in the Bible.So show him the answers in the Bible.
You didn't call them "Christ Killers" - but you did adopt a tone which I found quite shocking... the idea that "they" killed Jesus got my hackles up.Do you deny that the Jews of Jesus' day sent Him to His death?
You don't have to call someone a particular name in order to hold them in contempt, and your post read somewhat aggressively, and also, as though you resented them for being God's chosen people.So let's teach him why he should feel differently, if that's how he really intended to come across.
They cover their heads as a sign of respect showing they are under the authority of God.

Orthodox Jews grow their locks long because Moses left it as a commandment... so that they would constantly remember God, there was always a physical reminder.

They are God's Chosen people because He chose them... that should be enough.So what does it mean, precisely, to be God's "chosen people"? It's a curse as well as a blessing.
Christians are grafted onto Israel.

At the moment there is still enmity between Christians and Jews, though the wounds of seperation are healing.How are they healing when Israel still rejects Christ?
In the future we will be reconciled.Very true. :thumbsup:
We, as Christians, are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and are to bless Israel and the offspring of Abraham, because God commands it.Very true. So why does He command it?

David Taylor
Jun 26th 2008, 05:48 PM
We, as Christians, are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and are to bless Israel and the offspring of Abraham, because God commands it.


I hear this phrase alot, usually in zionistic/patriotistic statements.

Where does the scriptures themselves, specifically tell 1) Christians, to specifically 2) pray for the peace of Jerusalem?


I know there are alot of admonitions for Christians to pray for 'all people' and to pray for 'all the lost' that they would come to salvation....where are Christians specifically told to single-out and make Jerusalem/Israel unique?

Ta-An
Jun 26th 2008, 06:26 PM
5. In the end, will they go to heaven, or hell?

Well for sure there are gonna be Jews in heaven ...
Only the Jews knows of this song of Moses :DRev 15:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

David Taylor
Jun 26th 2008, 06:54 PM
Well for sure there are gonna be Jews in heaven ...
Only the Jews knows of this song of Moses :DRev 15:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Knowing "the song of the Lamb" would denote these are Christians; regardless of their ethnic lineage while on the Earth.


Moses followed Christ, so His faithful song would be quite appropriate to Jesus Christ the Lamb.

Naphal
Jun 26th 2008, 07:02 PM
Well for sure there are gonna be Jews in heaven ...
Only the Jews knows of this song of Moses :DRev 15:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

I think the asker means will people who believe in Judaism and reject Jesus as Messiah be in heaven not will ethnically Jewish Christians be in heaven...thats assured because Christ saves Christians :)

Frances
Jun 26th 2008, 07:05 PM
Questions about Judaism, and its followers.

1. What is with the hats??
They believe it pleases God if they wear them.

2. What is the thing with the little curls on the side??
Their hair-style.

3. Why are they god's chosen people? I mean, if we worship the true religion, why aren't we? (not trying to sound greedy, but I don't get it)?
God knew the only way mankind could be saved from the penalty for Sin was to pay our penalty Himself, to come to earth Himself, as a Man, to pay our penalty for our Sin. Every nation at that time were idol worshippers. He needed a nation that worshipped Him to be born into; so He chose Abraham who worshipped Him to be the father of such a nation. The Jews were, are, and always will be God's chosen people.

4. Didn't they kill Jesus? (I know the Romans killed him physically)?
No. Jesus Christ(God) came to earth specifically to die - paying our penalty for our Sin. The only way that no one would ever be able to 'prove' He had never really died was for iHis death to be public, and verified by Roman soldiers. . . but as He, personally, had never Sinned, and death is the result of Sin, Jesus rose to life again. . . proving He is God.

5. In the end, will they go to heaven, or hell??
Only God knows where each individual Jew will spend eternity.

6. Are they allies in the religion or enemy??
They are Loved by God . . . (I don't think your question is relevant)

7. Aren't they our enemy cause I remember Jesus sayign something like (if your not with me, your against me)?
They are not our enemy.

8. The beanie hat things?
What are they?

Ta-An
Jun 26th 2008, 08:22 PM
Knowing "the song of the Lamb" would denote these are Christians; regardless of their ethnic lineage while on the Earth.


Moses followed Christ, so His faithful song would be quite appropriate to Jesus Christ the Lamb.David, I specifically refer to the Song of Moses :D.... do you know when where and why this song was given and sung?? :hmm:

diffangle
Jun 26th 2008, 10:30 PM
Do you deny that the Jews of Jesus' day sent Him to His death?

Did the Jewish Apostles, the Jewish Nicodemus, the Jewish Joseph of Arimathea send Him to His death? Did the gentiles physically kill Him?

David Taylor
Jun 26th 2008, 11:20 PM
David, I specifically refer to the Song of Moses :D.... do you know when where and why this song was given and sung?? :hmm:


Rev 15:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

The group that is singing in Revelation 15:3, is singing BOTH the song of Moses, AND the song of the Lamb.

They are Christians as they sing; followers of the Lamb of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. Non-Christians would never sing the song of the Lamb.

Naphal
Jun 26th 2008, 11:36 PM
Did the Jewish Apostles, the Jewish Nicodemus, the Jewish Joseph of Arimathea send Him to His death? Did the gentiles physically kill Him?


The Jews decided whether or not Jesus would be crucified:


Matthew 20:18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,
Matthew 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

It was the Jewish leaders that condemned Jesus to death and they used the gentiles to carry out the act.


Mark 15:6 Now at that feast he released unto them one prisoner, whomsoever they desired.
Mark 15:7 And there was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection.
Mark 15:8 And the multitude crying aloud began to desire him to do as he had ever done unto them.
Mark 15:9 But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
Mark 15:10 For he knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy.
Mark 15:11 But the chief priests moved the people, that he should rather release Barabbas unto them.
Mark 15:12 And Pilate answered and said again unto them, What will ye then that I shall do unto him whom ye call the King of the Jews?
Mark 15:13 And they cried out again, Crucify him.
Mark 15:14 Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him.

They could have let him go, the Romans had no reason to kill him but they allowed the Jews to decide. The Jews were the hand and the Romans were the sword if you will. The sword did the killing but it is the hand that decided and has the majority fault. The Romans were just pawns.

This really is who killed Jesus and why 101.

diffangle
Jun 27th 2008, 01:27 AM
The Jews decided whether or not Jesus would be crucified:
The point of my question was to show that not all Jews delivered Him up to be crucified. Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea were Jewish leaders and they were not responsible for delivering Him up. It was also to show that gentiles had just as much a hand in His death as some of the Jews did, look at the verses you quoted, they even show how gentiles were just as guilty...



Matthew 20:18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,
Matthew 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

See, it shows that gentiles mocked, scourged, and crucified Him.


It was the Jewish leaders that condemned Jesus to death and they used the gentiles to carry out the act.

The Jews weren't forcing the gentiles at knife-point... the Romans weren't exactly known for non-cruelty/ruthlessness. How just/innocent were they knowingly crucifying an innocent man?




Mark 15:6 Now at that feast he released unto them one prisoner, whomsoever they desired.
Mark 15:7 And there was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection.
Mark 15:8 And the multitude crying aloud began to desire him to do as he had ever done unto them.
Mark 15:9 But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
Mark 15:10 For he knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy.
Mark 15:11 But the chief priests moved the people, that he should rather release Barabbas unto them.
Mark 15:12 And Pilate answered and said again unto them, What will ye then that I shall do unto him whom ye call the King of the Jews?
Mark 15:13 And they cried out again, Crucify him.
Mark 15:14 Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him.

Then he(Pilate) so willingly did it.



They could have let him go, the Romans had no reason to kill him but they allowed the Jews to decide. The Jews were the hand and the Romans were the sword if you will. The sword did the killing but it is the hand that decided and has the majority fault. The Romans were just pawns.

The Romans were far from innocent.


This really is who killed Jesus and why 101.
Is there really an argument against the fact that we all(Jew and gentile) ultimately killed Him?

ShirleyFord
Jun 27th 2008, 01:32 AM
SONG OF MOSES



I Will Sing Unto The LORD For He Hath Triumphed Gloriously: The Horse And His Rider Hath He Thrown Into The Sea


Lyrics and Music by Moses and the Children of Israel


First Baptist Church in the Wilderness




The Women of the Church provided special singing with timbrels and dances with prophetess Miriam, sister of Aaron, the anointed high priest of God, and Moses, the anointed prophet of God, His deliverer and savior of His people out of Egypt through the Red Sea




Song of Moses - Exodus 15:1-21
Sung Unto The Lord
By Moses and the children of Israel


1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.

2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.

5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.

6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.

8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.

9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.

10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.

11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?

12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.

13 Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.

14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.

15 Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.

16 Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.

17 Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O LORD, which thy hands have established.

18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.

19 For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea.

20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.

21 And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.

calidog
Jun 27th 2008, 01:33 AM
3. Why are they god's chosen people? I mean, if we worship the true religion, why aren't we? (not trying to sound greedy, but I don't get it)


He chose them, He loves them, He will keep His promises with them.

We are also chosen and we can expect God to fulfill His promises.

calidog
Jun 27th 2008, 01:34 AM
4. Didn't they kill Jesus? (I know the Romans killed him physically)


As it turns out God sacrificed Him.

calidog
Jun 27th 2008, 01:35 AM
5. In the end, will they go to heaven, or hell?


In the very end of time, those living, will be saved.

calidog
Jun 27th 2008, 01:40 AM
6. Are they allies in the religion or enemy?


They are blind, in part, untill the times of the gentiles come in. But Gods word remains unchanged,
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

diffangle
Jun 27th 2008, 01:41 AM
As it turns out God sacrificed Him.
Jhn 10:18 (http://cf.blb.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=10&v=18&t=KJV#18)No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of My Father.

calidog
Jun 27th 2008, 01:45 AM
Jhn 10:18 (http://cf.blb.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=10&v=18&t=KJV#18)No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of My Father.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Another proof text pair that Jesus is God:)

Naphal
Jun 27th 2008, 05:01 AM
The point of my question was to show that not all Jews delivered Him up to be crucified.

Such a concept isn't even possible. I think the issue is who was responsible. Who caused it to happen? It was the Jews, specifically the leadership but corporately all of unbelieving Israel. The Romans actually did it, and in a weird sort of way some people say we are all guilty. I don't fully agree with that last one but there ya go.




Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea were Jewish leaders and they were not responsible for delivering Him up. It was also to show that gentiles had just as much a hand in His death as some of the Jews did, look at the verses you quoted, they even show how gentiles were just as guilty...

The point is that had the Jews not plotted to have him killed, the Romans would have never done it and they didn't want to even at the last moment before sentencing.




See, it shows that gentiles mocked, scourged, and crucified Him.



Yes, the Jews were able to manipulate the Romans. No one denies this.



The Jews weren't forcing the gentiles at knife-point...

Nope, they sure did not do that nor did they need to do that in order to get Jesus killed. They used more subtle means.




the Romans weren't exactly known for non-cruelty/ruthlessness. How just/innocent were they knowingly crucifying an innocent man?

Back to your earlier identifying of individuals, how many of the Romans actually knew that Jesus was innocent? Far less than how many Jews wanted Jesus dead.



Then he(Pilate) so willingly did it.

No, he didn't want to:


Matthew 27:23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
Matthew 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
Matthew 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.


The Jews there took responsibility for it.




The Romans were far from innocent.

No one says they are innocent. They were used like pawns.




Is there really an argument against the fact that we all(Jew and gentile) ultimately killed Him?



Yes but there is no need to delve into all that. There are equal arguements to say God is ultimately responsible or that Jesus laid his life down willingly and no one could take it from him without his permission.

Naphal
Jun 27th 2008, 05:04 AM
They are blind, in part, untill the times of the gentiles come in. But Gods word remains unchanged,
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

That's not directed at the children of Jacob but the descendants of Abraham which was before Israel. While it applies to Israel, it is not limited to them or a special promise to them to a vast amount of different peoples.

Toymom
Jun 27th 2008, 05:36 AM
I personally don't have time to just casually read the entire Old Testament today. Do you?
It is important to make the time to read it.
Do you have time to watch tv? read the newspaper? browse the internet? look at a message board? then you have time to read the entire Bible. It is just a matter of priorities - not time.

Naphal
Jun 27th 2008, 05:52 AM
It is important to make the time to read it.
Do you have time to watch tv? read the newspaper? browse the internet? look at a message board? then you have time to read the entire Bible. It is just a matter of priorities - not time.

We should start a daily bible study of the old testament. Lets start out with Chronicles, perhaps one verse at a time and let people share their thoughts? :)

I'll go first!


1 Chronicles 1:1 Adam, Sheth, Enosh,

Three cool guys in my opinion!

daughter
Jun 27th 2008, 08:46 AM
Good idea... but should we split the thread for this? Provide a link to our study?

ShirleyFord
Jun 27th 2008, 10:22 AM
Revelation 15

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

2 Songs
1 People of God (saints)

Jews and Gentiles sang the one song of Moses after being delivered through the Red Sea in Exodus 15.

Exodus 12

37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children

38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

39 And they baked unleavened cakes of the dough which they brought forth out of Egypt, for it was not leavened; because they were thrust out of Egypt, and could not tarry, neither had they prepared for themselves any victual.

As they sang the song of Moses, both Jews and Gentilles together in Exodus 15 to the Lord, praising Him that He had delivered them by the Lord's passover, the blood of the sacrificial passover lamb.


At that first passover yhey killed the lamb in Egypt. At its death its blood was applied that caused them to pass through the sea. But before they could feast with the Lord they had to keep the passover feast. God had told them that they would have to go a three-days journey into the wilderness away from Egypt So each of the familiesmlies of both Gentiles and Jews, carried their slain passover lamb with them on their flight from Egyppt, through the Red Sea. And when they came into the wilderness over on the other side, they sang the song of Moses which prophecied the Coming of the Holy One of Israel, the Holy Lamb of God, they sang the song of the Lamb


Exodus 12

43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:

44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.

45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.

47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.

48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

50 Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.

51 And it came to pass the selfsame day, that the LORD did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies.


And when the true Lamb of God came in the first century, they sang a new song, both Jews and Gentiles together! Those He redeemed sang a new long, the song of the Lamb that only the redeemed can sing.


Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.





Shirley

ShirleyFord
Jun 27th 2008, 10:56 AM
As it turns out God sacrificed Him.

Judas berayed Him so He could be sacrificed for our sins. But God held Judas responible. His betryal revealed his evil sinful heart towards God that caused him to betray Christ Jesus.

Peter told the vast multitude of Jews gathered at Penticost, all the house of Israel , that it was they who crucified the Lord:

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


Shirley

calidog
Jun 27th 2008, 02:19 PM
Judas berayed Him so He could be sacrificed for our sins. But God held Judas responible. His betryal revealed his evil sinful heart towards God that caused him to betray Christ Jesus.

Peter told the vast multitude of Jews gathered at Penticost, all the house of Israel , that it was they who crucified the Lord:

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


ShirleyJudas knew what he was doing and Jesus held him responsible for what he did, but as for the rest Jesus later said:

Luk 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

And you're leaving out what else Peter said:

Act 3:17 "Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers.
Act 3:18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.


Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Joh 10:17 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
Joh 10:18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

diffangle
Jun 27th 2008, 02:27 PM
Yes, the Jews were able to manipulate the Romans. No one denies this.

Nope, they sure did not do that nor did they need to do that in order to get Jesus killed. They used more subtle means.

They weren't manipulated, nor were they subtle, Pilate knew they delivered Him up out of envy...

Mat 27:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=27&verse=18&version=kjv#18)For he knew that for envy they had delivered Him.


Yes but there is no need to delve into all that.
I see the need when these threads start to try and place all the blame on a single race of people who have been highly persecuted from time immemorial.



There are equal arguements to say God is ultimately responsible or that Jesus laid his life down willingly and no one could take it from him without his permission.

Exactly, as calidog said and the verse I quoted points out. Iow, maybe we should all stop pointing fingers and playing the blame game but instead move forward and recognize that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour(which He so graciously provided for us). We are not instructed in Scriptures to single out a particular race and blame them for what some of their ancestors did... we are told that there is neither Jew nor gentile with Him... so why act like there is?

Ta-An
Jun 27th 2008, 04:49 PM
Rev 15:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

The group that is singing in Revelation 15:3, is singing BOTH the song of Moses, AND the song of the Lamb. Exactly...... Still I say.... do you as a Christian know what the Song of Moses is about?? :hmm:

These Jews that are coming through the tribulation will get to accept Yeshua as Messiah during the Tribulation :idea:


They are Christians as they sing; followers of the Lamb of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. Non-Christians would never sing the song of the Lamb. See above.... these Jews will accept Yeshua as Messiah during the tribulation :D

David Taylor
Jun 27th 2008, 06:37 PM
Exactly...... Still I say.... do you as a Christian know what the Song of Moses is about?? :hmm:

These Jews that are coming through the tribulation will get to accept Yeshua as Messiah during the Tribulation :idea: See above.... these Jews will accept Yeshua as Messiah during the tribulation :D


Nothing in Revelation 15 tells us 'when' those people were saved.
Revelation 15 doesn't mention 'the tribulation', nor does it tell us when these people lived on the earth.

All people, living on the earth, from any race and ethnic background, have the opportunity to accept Jesus as Christ, anytime.

Peter told the Jews of the 1st century, that salvation was available to them immediately, and to their children after them as well.

Sorry, but I don't buy into the "group salvation postponement" view. Anyone can accept Christ any day, while the day is yet the day.

Literalist-Luke
Jun 27th 2008, 06:57 PM
It is important to make the time to read it.
Do you have time to watch tv? read the newspaper? browse the internet? look at a message board? then you have time to read the entire Bible. It is just a matter of priorities - not time.My point was that I don't have time today to read through the entire Old Testament. In fact, I have read the entire Bible several times. I was telling daughter that she needed to spell out her answer rather than waste Christian Knight's time with a suggestion to "look in the Old Testament" without even giving him a clue where to look.

ShirleyFord
Jun 29th 2008, 08:38 PM
Revelation 15

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.




2 Songs
1 People of God (saints)

Jews and Gentiles sang the one song of Moses after being delivered through the Red Sea in Exodus 15.


Exodus 12


37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children


38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.


39 And they baked unleavened cakes of the dough which they brought forth out of Egypt, for it was not leavened; because they were thrust out of Egypt, and could not tarry, neither had they prepared for themselves any victual.


As they sang the song of Moses, both Jews and Gentilles together in Exodus 15 to the Lord, praising Him that He had delivered them by the Lord's passover, the blood of the sacrificial passover lamb.

At that first passover yhey killed the lamb in Egypt. At its death its blood was applied that caused them to pass through the sea. But before they could feast with the Lord they had to keep the passover feast. God had told them that they would have to go a three-days journey into the wilderness away from Egypt So each of the familiesmlies of both Gentiles and Jews, carried their slain passover lamb with them on their flight from Egyppt, through the Red Sea. And when they came into the wilderness over on the other side, they sang the song of Moses which prophecied the Coming of the Holy One of Israel, the Holy Lamb of God, they sang the song of the Lamb


Exodus 12


43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:


44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.


45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.


47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.


48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD[/font], let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.


49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.


50 Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.


51 And it came to pass the selfsame day, that the LORD did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies.


Modern-day Jews credit Moses with bringing the children of Israel out of Egypt, through the Red Sea. But looking back at Exodus 12 and what Moses instructed them to do before crossing through the Red Sea, over to the other side, we see a different picture:

48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.


Remember Moses said to Pharoah, "Let my people go." Go where?

Not to Canaan. 12 times God commanded Moses to tell Pharoah, "Let my people go."

Ex 5:1 And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people Go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.

Ex 7:16 And thou shalt say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath sent me unto thee, saying, Let my people Go, that they may serve me in the wilderness: and, behold, hitherto thou wouldest not hear.

Ex 8:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, Go unto Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Let my people Go, that they may serve me.

Ex 8:8 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, Entreat the LORD, that he may take away the frogs from me, and from my people; and I will let the people go, that they may do sacrifice unto the LORD.

Ex 8:20 And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh; lo, he cometh forth to the water; and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Let my people go, that they may serve me.

Ex 8:21 Else, if thou wilt not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies upon thee, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thy houses: and the houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms of flies, and also the ground whereon they are.

Ex 9:1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people Go, that they may serve me.

Ex 9:13 And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people Go, that they may serve me.

Ex 9:17 As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?

Ex 10:3 And Moses and Aaron came in unto Pharaoh, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, How long wilt thou refuse to humble thyself before me? let my people Go, that they may serve me.

Ex 10:4 Else, if thou refuse to let my people go, behold, to morrow will I bring the locusts into thy coast:

Ex 34:9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O LORD, let my LORD, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.


And when the true Lamb of God came in the first century, they sang a new song, both Jews and Gentiles together! Those He redeemed sang a new long, the song of the Lamb that only the redeemed can sing.


Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;


Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.


We have thought that the children of Israel cried out to God to deliver them out of Egypt and into their inheritance. But as we read the the account in Genesis, we find out how Israel and his 12 sons ended up in Israel to begin with.

Joseph tells his brothers in Gen. 45 when he made himself known to them and for them to go to Israel who is at that time in the Promised land of Canaan:


7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.

8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

9 Haste ye, and go up to my father, and say unto him, Thus saith thy son Joseph, God hath made me lord of all Egypt: come down unto me, tarry not:

10 [COLOR=red]And thou shalt dwell in the land of Goshen, and thou shalt be near unto me, thou, and thy children, and thy children's children, and thy flocks, and thy herds, and all that thou hast:

11 And there will I nourish thee; for yet there are five years of famine; lest thou, and thy household, and all that thou hast, come to poverty.

12 And, behold, your eyes see, and the eyes of my brother Benjamin, that it is my mouth that speaketh unto you.

13 And ye shall tell my father of all my glory in Egypt, and of all that ye have seen; and ye shall haste and bring down my father hither.

14 And he fell upon his brother Benjamin's neck, and wept; and Benjamin wept upon his neck.

15 Moreover he kissed all his brethren, and wept upon them: and after that his brethren talked with him.

16 And the fame thereof was heard in Pharaoh's house, saying, Joseph's brethren are come: and it pleased Pharaoh well, and his servants.

17 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, Say unto thy brethren, This do ye; lade your beasts, and go, get you unto the land of Canaan;

18 And take your father and your households, and come unto me: and I will give you the good of the land of Egypt, and ye shall eat the fat of the land.

19 Now thou art commanded, this do ye; take you wagons out of the land of Egypt for your little ones, and for your wives, and bring your father, and come.

20 Also regard not your stuff; for the good of all the land of Egypt is yours.

21 And the children of Israel did so: and Joseph gave them wagons, according to the commandment of Pharaoh, and gave them provision for the way.

22 To all of them he gave each man changes of raiment; but to Benjamin he gave three hundred pieces of silver, and five changes of raiment.

Pharoah is not sending them away from Egypt. He is sending an invitation to Israel to come live forever in Egypt in their own kingdom within his kingdom in Goshen, sectioned off from the other inhabitants of Egypt.

23 And to his father he sent after this manner; ten asses laden with the good things of Egypt, and ten she asses laden with corn and bread and meat for his father by the way.

24 So he sent his brethren away, and they departed: and he said unto them, See that ye fall not out by the way.

25 And they went up out of Egypt, and came into the land of Canaan unto Jacob their father,

26 And told him, saying, Joseph is yet alive, and he is governor over all the land of Egypt. And Jacob's heart fainted, for he believed them not.

27 And they told him all the words of Joseph, which he had said unto them: and when he saw the wagons which Joseph had sent to carry him, the spirit of Jacob their father revived:

28 And Israel said, It is enough; Joseph my son is yet alive: I will go and see him before I die.

Gen 45:10 And thou shalt dwell in the land of Goshen, and thou shalt be near unto me, thou, and thy children, and thy children's children, and thy flocks, and thy herds, and all that thou hast:

Gen 46:28 And he sent Judah before him unto Joseph, to direct his face unto Goshen; and they came into the land of Goshen.

Gen 46:29 And Joseph made ready his chariot, and went up to meet Israel his father, to Goshen, and presented himself unto him; and he fell on his neck, and wept on his neck a good while.

Gen 46:34 That ye shall say, Thy servants' trade hath been about cattle from our youth even until now, both we, and also our fathers: that ye may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd is an abomination unto the Egyptians.

Gen 47:1 Then Joseph came and told Pharaoh, and said, My father and my brethren, and their flocks, and their herds, and all that they have, are come out of the land of Canaan; and, behold, they are in the land of Goshen.

Gen 47:4 They said moreover unto Pharaoh, For to sojourn in the land are we come; for thy servants have no pasture for their flocks; for the famine is sore in the land of Canaan: now therefore, we pray thee, let thy servants dwell in the land of Goshen.

Gen 47:6 The land of Egypt is before thee; in the best of the land make thy father and brethren to dwell; in the land of Goshen let them dwell: and if thou knowest any men of activity among them, then make them rulers over my cattle.

Gen 47:27 And Israel dwelt in the land of Egypt, in the country of Goshen; and they had possessions therein, and grew, and multiplied exceedingly.

Gen 50:8 And all the house of Joseph, and his brethren, and his father's house: only their little ones, and their flocks, and their herds, they left in the land of Goshen.


As we see, the children of Israel were given the freedom in Goshen to to grow sheep for offering the blood, flesh and skin up to their God so He would keep them blessed materially with much wealth and possessions and the uncircised Egyptians within Egypt wouldn't stop God's blessings from being poured out on them. There kings of Egypt from that Pharoah to his son and his son't descendents were very good to Israel with having much favor from him because of Joseph.

Then as we turn to the 1st Chapter of Exodus, we find a major change:

6 And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.

7 And the children of Israel were fruitful, and increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them.

8 Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.

9 And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we:

10 Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and so get them up out of the land.

11 Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses.

12 But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew. And they were grieved because of the children of Israel.

13 And the Egyptians made the children of Israel to serve with rigor:

14 And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage, in mortar, and in brick, and in all manner of service in the field: all their service, wherein they made them serve, was with rigor.

That Pharoah removed them from their kingdom and placed them in kingdom. And when he did, he took away their worship of God by offering animal sacrifices by the eye of faith in the true Lamb of God of which their little lambs sacrifice were shadows of that removed the shadows when their Messiah, Christ Jesus, the true substance, would become the true substance of the shadow, the One pure offering of God. The same kind of faith as their father Abraham, Isaac, Israel and his sons.

So what they were crying out for was for God to bring them back into their land Goshen, which was a 3 days journey Egypt so they could keep the feast of the Lord.

Naphal
Jun 29th 2008, 11:00 PM
Judas knew what he was doing and Jesus held him responsible for what he did, but as for the rest Jesus later said:

Luk 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

This is the Roman's IMO.

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


Basically they would not have crucified him had they known that he was truly the Son of God and that killing him actually helped him to overcome Satan and therefore themselves.

I don't believe this applies to the Jewish leadership because of how harshly Christ spoke to them:


John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
John 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.