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The Parson
Jun 11th 2008, 01:23 AM
This thread is in no way intended to start a osas no-osas debate. (please don't go there) I just find it a bit refreshing to find others views on my own beliefs. And there are a couple that I seem to share with only a few.

The first would be that I believe without a shadow of a doubt that there are two books. The first is the Book of Life, which I believe contains our name at birth. And then there is the Lamb's Book of Life which in my mind contains our names once we are born again. This is really influenced by my own conviction of Eternal Security.


Book of Life

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Lamb's Book of Life
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

The second would be two judgements seats. The first of which is the Great White Throne where only the lost are judged.

Great White Throne
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

The next would be the Judgement Seat of Christ (Bema Seat) where only the born again are judged. Where as, many believe these two judgements are one and the same. And I would also venture to say that that belief is also influenced by Eternal Security.

BEMA Seat of Christ
1st Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Those who believe as I do about these two seperate judgements at times do disagree on when this takes place. I personally believe this one on one judgement takes place at death of the believer because of what the Apostle Paul wrote: Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This is quintiscentially an anabaptist/Baptist belief, but I'd like to hear from some of the other brothers and sisters on what they believe.

TrustGzus
Jun 11th 2008, 03:33 AM
Hey Tim,

First of all, let me say that I agree with you in regard to eternal security.

Secondly, I'm not sure there is a distinction between the "book of life" and "the Lamb's book of life."

Let me add a thought for you to comment on. I never thought about this until I just read the verse right now. Do you see at least three books in Revelation 20:12? Let me paste the verse with me inserting two comments . . .
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books [note the plural there - "books", i.e. two or more] were opened: and another book was opened [at least two were already opened and now a third or beyond is opened], which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 (electronic ed. of the 1769 edition of the 1611 Authorized Version.) (Re 20:12). Bellingham WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.What do you think, Tim?

Anyway, how does this affect your view of eternal security? I don't see the connection. Either way, I hold the view for other reasons.

Joe

Naphal
Jun 11th 2008, 10:32 AM
The first would be that I believe without a shadow of a doubt that there are two books.

Actually there are at least three books:


Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


Here the books plural are opened meaning at least two, and then another singular book is opened. We don't know how many books the plural refers to...coud be two or two billion billion but there is only one book of life.

Since the path to life is narrow and the other is broad I believe the books plural are books of sin and evil and contains the names etc of those who will "go to hell" while the one book is of those that shall live.

IamBill
Jun 11th 2008, 01:13 PM
Interesting :)

I have understood there to be two different books (one is the Lamb's).
And One of the two being plural, yes "books"

I've never gave it much thought though, The Lamb's Book of Life, I though to be the one where Christ intercedes/witnesses for us before the Father.

I wonder, could ""Books" of Life" refer to Before and after the Cross ?

ProjectPeter
Jun 11th 2008, 01:22 PM
Might surprise you (what with me not being OSAS to the degree you are).... I think there are different books too and don't disagree with you on the book of life and lambs book of life. I also think there is a third book... it contains the name of Israelites (my opinion). :)

Teke
Jun 11th 2008, 01:41 PM
I believe there are two books, one for judgment by works, and one for judgment by grace. But only One judgment. In the framework of our personal existence each one of us is made responsible for a part of the kingdom of God, by Christ.

The Parson
Jun 11th 2008, 02:09 PM
I would reckon I needed to be more specific and spent more time on my post. I meant there are two books of life. But what I see so far ya'll, is fascinating.


Anyway, how does this affect your view of eternal security? I don't see the connection. Either way, I hold the view for other reasons.My view of eternal security is effected in many ways through out the scriptures Joe, not just here. As for how, I don't see where anyones name is ever blotted out of the Lambs book of Life, just the book of life.

And ProPet mentioned that one of the many books may contain Isrealites. Now that could speak volumes and I wish you would expound there a bit more.
a third book... it contains the name of Israelites (my opinion). :)


I wonder, could ""Books" of Life" refer to Before and after the Cross ?That's what I thought ProPet might be talking about Bill.

I believe there are two books, one for judgment by works, and one for judgment by grace. But only One judgment. In the framework of our personal existence each one of us is made responsible for a part of the kingdom of God, by Christ.That's interesting Teke. What scripture caused you to believe that?

ProjectPeter
Jun 11th 2008, 02:11 PM
Yeah... that is pretty much my thinking. Before and after the cross.

fewarechosen
Jun 11th 2008, 03:26 PM
great post parson,

i have not gave this much thought .
i always just thought ok its one book for those with the spirit and one for those without.

before your post i was pondering this scripture

1st Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

. so its cool to see this thread pop up. hopefully we can all help eachother grow in understanding

i always try to be carefull with this stuff -- much like revelations. because its always in the back of my mind that im already squandering what i was given and shouldnt i be more concerned with that than anything like this.

but that being said knowing the truth of things is always good :) so im curious to see where this thread goes

Theophilus
Jun 11th 2008, 03:34 PM
... it contains the name of Israelites (my opinion). :)
National Israelites, or spiritual Israelites?:hmm:

The Parson
Jun 11th 2008, 03:42 PM
great post parson,

i have not gave this much thought .
i always just thought ok its one book for those with the spirit and one for those without.

before your post i was pondering this scripture

1st Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

. so its cool to see this thread pop up. hopefully we can all help eachother grow in understanding

i always try to be carefull with this stuff -- much like revelations. because its always in the back of my mind that im already squandering what i was given and shouldnt i be more concerned with that than anything like this.

but that being said knowing the truth of things is always good :) so im curious to see where this thread goesOne of the biggest goofs any of us can make is to say to ourselves; "My understanding of the truth in the Word is the only correct one". I find that at the ripe old age of 50, I'm still learning daily in the Word. And the one truth I have learned above all is "Keep It Simple Silly". When eating the strong meat of the scriptures we sometimes try to use a chainsaw and a pitchfork to learn instead of a knife and fork. And then we try to cram many precepts down our throat instead of taking them one bite at a time so we can digest them.

The same can be said with the precepts of this OP. God said: Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord:........., What better way to test those things I learned without reasoning them out with the help of the brethren?

Teke
Jun 11th 2008, 05:12 PM
That's interesting Teke. What scripture caused you to believe that?

I'll give a short version from my commentary. :D
"The books of judgment (Dan. 7:10) contain a record of men's own deeds' their own works will judge them (Ps. 62:12, Jer. 17:10). This judging of believers' works is a common NT theme (Matt. 16:27, Rom. 2:6, 2 Cor. 5:10, 1 Pet. 1:17)
In contrast the book of life contains the names of all who are saved by grace (Ex. 32:32, Is. 4:3, Dan. 12:1,2) God's mercy is far greater than human works, good or bad. "

This is why we want to give a good account before the dread judgment seat of Christ.

Buck shot
Jun 11th 2008, 05:53 PM
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.




I also agree with the belief of seperate judgements for the "living" (those who have eternal life) and the "dead" (those that do not have eternal life). This being said, I wonder if the books that are opened are not the Old Test laws. This would be in my opinion what would be used to judge those that are not trusting in our Lord Jesus.

There works would be weighed agains the OT Laws and there would be no mediator for them. When they are shown that they have broken the law, the righteous judge will check the "book of life" to see if their debt has been paid yet. If their name is not found, their wages of sin are now due. :cry:

This is just the way I view this coming Judgement.

The Parson
Jun 11th 2008, 06:11 PM
I also agree with the belief of seperate judgements for the "living" (those who have eternal life) and the "dead" (those that do not have eternal life). This being said, I wonder if the books that are opened are not the Old Test laws. This would be in my opinion what would be used to judge those that are not trusting in our Lord Jesus.

There works would be weighed agains the OT Laws and there would be no mediator for them. When they are shown that they have broken the law, the righteous judge will check the "book of life" to see if their debt has been paid yet. If their name is not found, their wages of sin are now due. :cry:

This is just the way I view this coming Judgement.I remember in court (I'm a court liason), Judge Watson opening the law books before he passed judgement and read from them to the accused. At that moment I could picture the Lord Himself with the books reading aloud the precious Law of God. What a chilling picture that was.

Buck shot
Jun 11th 2008, 06:29 PM
I remember in court (I'm a court liason), Judge Watson opening the law books before he passed judgement and read from them to the accused. At that moment I could picture the Lord Himself with the books reading aloud the precious Law of God. What a chilling picture that was.

just your short desciption made the hair stand up on my back :o

Naphal
Jun 12th 2008, 02:41 AM
I would reckon I needed to be more specific and spent more time on my post. I meant there are two books of life.

I don't believe there are two.


Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I think the full name of this book is "the lamb's book of life" and the shorter version which appears more often is simply "the book of life"...similar to sometimes seeing "God the Father" and when sometimes it's shorten to just "God" or "the Father"....still the one and only but different ways of reference.

In the verses above we see that it is those not in this book which will not have life. I cannot see the need to have separate books of life because they would need to be the same else there would be contradictions and I don't think people will go to heaven by a 2-1 vote in the Godhead :)

SIG
Jun 12th 2008, 03:56 AM
The book of life is also an OT concept; see Psalm 69:28.

This article tells more. Note also the connection between the books and Rosh Hashonah (the New Year). Those who find parallels between the Jewish observances and Christ's ministry see a parallel between Rosh Hashonah and the Second Coming.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Life#References_in_the_Christian_Bible

Naphal
Jun 12th 2008, 04:51 AM
The book of life is also an OT concept; see Psalm 69:28.

Yes, in Daniel also:

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Diggindeeper
Jun 12th 2008, 06:13 AM
To be honest, I see several "books". Here's one to consider...

Malachi 3:16
16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.


WOW! Every time we speak of the Lord to one another...or even think upon his name, it is written down in a book of remembrance!

If this is one of the "books" to be opened, I want volumes! Not a page or two, but VOLUMES! (Malachi 3:16 is my board signature, also. My very favorite scripture in all the Bible!)

RJ Mac
Jun 12th 2008, 12:06 PM
Parson I fully agree there will be two judgments, on judgment day, one for the
wicked Rev.20:11-15; and one for the righteous Mt.25:31-46;
I believe that Mt.7:21-23; goes with the judgment of the righteous,
they may have done good works but they didn't do the will of God.

The book of life and the Lambs book of life are one in the same.
Rev.20:15 and if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life
he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Therefore the wicked cannot have their name in the book of life.
The book of life is only for those who have followed Christ.

I agree we are all judged the day we die, if our name is written in the book
we go to heaven, if not, we go to hades.
On judgment day the OT righteous do not need to be judged, they already
have been judged, they're in heaven. So there is no need for a separate
book of OT righteous.

As for the other books - those which record our sins, there must be many.
But if my name is in the book of life, my sins are erased from those books.
I will remember their sins no more. Heb.8:12;

RJ

9Marksfan
Jun 12th 2008, 12:38 PM
Parson I fully agree there will be two judgments, on judgment day, one for the
wicked Rev.20:11-15; and one for the righteous Mt.25:31-46;

So the goats were RIGHTEOUS?!?!


I believe that Mt.7:21-23; goes with the judgment of the righteous,
they may have done good works but they didn't do the will of God.

How can they have been righteous and God never knew them? :confused

Teke
Jun 12th 2008, 12:53 PM
The second would be two judgements seats. The first of which is the Great White Throne where only the lost are judged.

Great White Throne
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

The next would be the Judgement Seat of Christ (Bema Seat) where only the born again are judged. Where as, many believe these two judgements are one and the same. And I would also venture to say that that belief is also influenced by Eternal Security.

BEMA Seat of Christ
1st Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Those who believe as I do about these two seperate judgements at times do disagree on when this takes place. I personally believe this one on one judgement takes place at death of the believer because of what the Apostle Paul wrote: Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This is quintiscentially an anabaptist/Baptist belief, but I'd like to hear from some of the other brothers and sisters on what they believe.




[/LEFT]

My question to two judgments in this context ( a bema seat judgment and a white throne) would be, if your a Trinitarian Christian how do you separate Jesus or Christ from the Father? Doesn't scripture say that all will be under Christ, meaning under His authority and judgment.

DeafPosttrib
Jun 12th 2008, 01:26 PM
I am Amill.

I believe there will be a general judgment day, I mean there will be only ONE judgment day, not two or three different judgment days according Dispensationalism doctrine.

Also, I believe there is the only ONE book of Life, not two.

First. When Moses was with God on Mt. Sinani, while God wrote the Ten Commandments, peopel wwre down at the camping, were made an image of calf as idol. And they were dancing and made much of noisy.

Joshua was with Moses, he heard noisy down there, so, he went and told Moses, what's going on down there. Then, when Moses came down and saw them. He was so angry at them, and he threw two stones of Ten Commandments down against the ground. Then, Moses went up back to God again, and he talked to God, he said to God, "Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--, and if not, blot me, I pray(ask) thee, OUT OF THY BOOK, which thou hast written."- Exo. 32:31-32.

I am pretty sure that, Moses was speaking of the book of Life. The only ONE book, not two or many books.

Then, Lord said to Moses, "Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I BLOT OUT OF MY BOOK."

Obivously, Lord was speaking to Moses on the Book of Life, the only ONE book.

OSAS do have serious problems with book of Life. Because, Exodus 32:31-33 doesn't teaching us of unconditional security salvation doctrine.

Whilst, Exodus 32:31-33 were still under Old Testament economy or period.

Many think, Old Testament period was under the Law, whilst the grace was not yet exist.

Wrong.

Grace was already right there during Old Testament time.

Noah found grace of God in Genesis 6:8. Clearly, grace was right there.

Also, in Revelation chapter 2 and 3 did mentioned on conditional security salvation with warnings.

Notice in Rev. 3:5, Christ warned: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Christ promises us, IF any person who overcome the world in lifetime till death, person's name would not be removed from the book of Life. OR, what IF a person fails to overcome the world in lifetime, person's name would be REMOVED out of the book of life, and cast away in the lake of fire.

Also, in Rev. 22:19 warns us, if any person removed words from God's Word. So, God would removed person's name away from the book of life, and cast person away in the lake of fire.

I understand what Rev. 20:12 is talking about.

"books" which are speaking of our deeds, what we have done in our life, these are the records. I believe "books" could be more than 2 books. Because there are billions, and billions of people from the beginning to the end of the world span about 7000 years length. I am sure that, there are multitude of record books, what all people have done in their deeds of their life.

BUT, there is the only ONE book - "Book of Life", it is for ALL faithful people only, who did overcame their life at death, that book is all about SALVATION & Eternal Life.

The Bible is very clear teaching us there is only ONE judgment day follow at the coming of Christ at the end of the world according to Matt. 25:31-46.

Dispensationalism doctrine is complex and confusion on people.

I reject Dispensationalism, because it is men-making doctrines. I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying according Colossians 2:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

RJ Mac
Jun 12th 2008, 03:17 PM
Marksfan - In Mt.25 the judgment of the sheep and the goats, both represent
the church, the righteous. The goats didn't love the brethren and were condemned
and sent to hell. They had a defense, they knew who Christ was, they thought
they were saved, once saved always saved? Just because you go to church
doesn't make you saved.

The ten virgins knew the bridegroom - 5 were wise, they studied their Bible, they had
extra oil. The foolish didn't study, didn't have the oil, they lacked faith, they perished.
Both groups were Christians but both didn't make it.

The men with the talents, first two put it to work, they had hope but the one who
was given a talent, knew the Master well, didn't put it to work, he was cast to hell.

The wicked are not judged based on their relationship with the saints. If a wicked
person feeds the saints, or gives them a drink, or invites the stranger in, or cloth a saint,
he cannot earn his way into heaven with good works, he must know God and obey
the gospel 2Th.1:8; But the saints must practice faith, hope and love and if we don't
we shall be condemned.

The sheep are the saved who exercised the blessing of being saved.
The goats are the saved who did not exercise the blessing of being saved.

RJ

The Parson
Jun 12th 2008, 04:01 PM
My question to two judgments in this context ( a bema seat judgment and a white throne) would be, if your a Trinitarian Christian how do you separate Jesus or Christ from the Father? Doesn't scripture say that all will be under Christ, meaning under His authority and judgment.OK, without trying to sound like a leagalist Teke, the term trinity or trinitarian has somewhat of a different meaning to me. But that is neither here or there because I do believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit and these three are one. I just use the term Godhead.

And to say that I am seperating the Father from the Son would be a misconception on your part in that I believe when one partakes of a act, they all partake.

threebigrocks
Jun 12th 2008, 04:48 PM
Joshua was with Moses, he heard noisy down there, so, he went and told Moses, what's going on down there. Then, when Moses came down and saw them. He was so angry at them, and he threw two stones of Ten Commandments down against the ground. Then, Moses went up back to God again, and he talked to God, he said to God, "Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--, and if not, blot me, I pray(ask) thee, OUT OF THY BOOK, which thou hast written."- Exo. 32:31-32.

I am pretty sure that, Moses was speaking of the book of Life. The only ONE book, not two or many books.

Then, Lord said to Moses, "Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I BLOT OUT OF MY BOOK."

Obivously, Lord was speaking to Moses on the Book of Life, the only ONE book.

Let me state that TheParson has asked to stay away from the eternal security issue. Please respect that throughout the tread, alrighty? ;)

With the scripture you shared, it says "my" or "thy", meaning it belonged to God. That would be the Lamb's book of life, would it not?

There are more than 1 book, and more than 2. There are at the very minimum 3 and I believe as has already been raised that there are God's chosen, the Israelites, in one, those of faith before grace and those of faith under grace. Righteousness is seen throughout the whole of scripture, and favor was found on many in the eyes of God from the Old Testiment and the New.

DeafPosttrib
Jun 12th 2008, 09:35 PM
Still, the Bible is very clear teaching us there is the only one book - "The book of Life", itself is the declared for the Overcamers only throughout all ages from the beginning to the end. The Book of Life is the picture of Salvation and Eterna Life. If there is no name of person in the Book of Life, too bad for person cannot enter into Eternal Life with Christ, cast person away in the lake of fire.

This is the issue of salvation, no way that we can avoid it. Even, Revelation chapter 2 and 3 did mentioned on conditional with warnings, and even, did mentioned on the book of life.

I respect The Parson's request at the opening of this thread. I know he is Baptist. Myself am also Baptist too.

Also, the Bible is teaching us very clear there will be a single judgment day for all nations follow at the coming of Christ.

Both Judgment Seat of Christ and Great White Throne are synonymous.

Matthew 25:31-46 say nothing of a gap time of a thousand years years follow at the coming of Christ. This passage gives us a clear scene of the general judgment day. The only one judgment day for all nations.

Dispensationalism do actual have problem with end times. Because itself distincts Israel and Church in God's programs. Actual, God only have one family, these whoseover believeth in Jesus Christ.

Also, "the Book of Life" is not just for "Church" or "Israel" only either. Also, this is apply to ALL people throughout all ages from the beginning to the end.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

RJ Mac
Jun 12th 2008, 10:31 PM
DeafPostrib wrote:
Matthew 25:31-46 say nothing of a gap time of a thousand years years follow
at the coming of Christ. This passage gives us a clear scene of the general
judgment day. The only one judgment day for all nations.

I beg to differ, yes there is but one judgment day, but on that one day
there shall be two judgment scenes, since the wicked are judged
according to 2Th.1:8 do they know God, have they obeyed the gospel?

In Mt.25 the sheep and the goats, is about the church, all the nations are
seen in heaven in Rev.21:24,26; So nations doesn't always include the wicked.
It is obvious when you view why they are condemned, they didn't love the brethren.

DeafPostrib:
Also, "the Book of Life" is not just for "Church" or "Israel" only either. Also, this
is apply to ALL people throughout all ages from the beginning to the end.

Only the names of God's people are found in the book of Life. So only those
who are turning to Christ are getting their names in the book of life today.
Meaning only those who are in the church, so today the book of Life is
only for the church.

RJ

DeafPosttrib
Jun 12th 2008, 10:59 PM
RJ,

In your mind, 'Church' is the ONLY all "saved" people.

You say,


In Mt. 25 the sheep and the goats, is about the church

Ok, the question is. In your mind, the word, 'Church' is refer to ALL "saved" people only. Who is the "goats" of Matt. 25? What will be happen to the goats in Mt. 25? Where all goats will go? Is this scene of Mt. 25 teaching us of unconditional security salvation doctrine?

You mentioned of 2 Thess. 1:8.

Understand, Paul tells us, we have to suffering under the persecutions and tribulations from enemy. We will not rest(being released from) from the persecutions and tribulations till WHEN Christ shall come with his angels to punishment enemies who persecute against us at His coming. This is the clear speaking of the only ONE judgment day, not two.

'Nations' is make up as every individuals, all 'nations' shall be divided into two classes - sheep and goats at Christ's coming. All sheep shall inherit eternal life with Christ. All goats shall be cast away into lake of fire.

Mt. 25:31-46 is very clear teaching us of only ONE judgment day follow at Christ's coming same time.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Naphal
Jun 12th 2008, 11:28 PM
Also, the Bible is teaching us very clear there will be a single judgment day for all nations follow at the coming of Christ.

Actually it shows a judgement taking place when Christ first returns but also a judgement later long after he has returned and after Satan rebels one last time.

Jesus returns one time and he will judge the quick and the dead at that time but that is not the final day of judgement.


Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Here we see his return and how he will judge at that time but he will also rule over the nations. That is the millennium period.


Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Here God is a reference to God the father who is the judge of all, meaning all who have lived and died. When Jesus returns he will only judge the ones on the earth whether they are dead or not.

Like I posted in Rev 20, that is when The Father judges all rather than the son judging.


John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

This is exactly what Christ is speaking about. There is a huge difference between when Christ returns and judges and when God judges all on the last day.






Matthew 25:31-46 say nothing of a gap time of a thousand years years follow at the coming of Christ.


It doesn't mention it in that portion of scripture but it is mentioned elsewhere. That's why we can't make doctrines on only one portion of scripture.






This passage gives us a clear scene of the general judgment day. The only one judgment day for all nations.


But what we don't see occurring is souls being brought from "hell" to be judged but we do see that happening after the 1000 years.



Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Here we see people from the sea and from hell being judged and only after Satan is cast into the lake.


Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Matthew 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Matthew 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Matthew 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Matthew 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Matthew 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Here we see that the place of fire is prepared for the devil but he is not yet cast into it. The devil is still active after the return of Christ but he is chained up:


Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


So, return of Christ has a smaller judgement with Satan still alive, then 1,000 years later Satan is released and rebels and then is taken and cast into the fire, and then a massive judgement occurs with the Father judging.

Teke
Jun 13th 2008, 02:26 AM
OK, without trying to sound like a leagalist Teke, the term trinity or trinitarian has somewhat of a different meaning to me. But that is neither here or there because I do believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit and these three are one. I just use the term Godhead.

And to say that I am seperating the Father from the Son would be a misconception on your part in that I believe when one partakes of a act, they all partake.

I didn't mean it to sound like your separating Father and Son. Your answer has clarified your meaning. You see two separate final judgments rather than one?

Teke
Jun 13th 2008, 02:27 AM
What is the difference in the bema seat and white throne?

Naphal
Jun 13th 2008, 03:52 AM
What is the difference in the bema seat and white throne?

Technically there isn't any because all thrones are thrones of judgement but when ppl use those terms it tends to be that the "bema seat" is Christ's throne when he judges and the "great white throne judgement" is referring to when his Father judges.

9Marksfan
Jun 13th 2008, 12:16 PM
Marksfan - In Mt.25 the judgment of the sheep and the goats, both represent
the church,

The visible church - correct.


the righteous.

No - the text itself shows that it's ONLY the sheep who are righteous:-

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Matt 25:46 NKJV


The goats didn't love the brethren and were condemned
and sent to hell. They had a defense, they knew who Christ was, they thought
they were saved, once saved always saved? Just because you go to church
doesn't make you saved.

Amen - but the goats were never saved - their "defence" actuaklly ADDED to their condemnation - as it will do to ALL who know ABOUT Christ but have never come to KNOW HIM.


The ten virgins knew the bridegroom

No - they planned to meet the bridegroom - not the same thing - in fact we're told in Gal 4:9 that being known by God is the same as knowing Him - and Jesus says to the foolish virgins that he does NOT know them - so they didn't know Him.


- 5 were wise, they studied their Bible, they had
extra oil. The foolish didn't study, didn't have the oil, they lacked faith, they perished.
Both groups were Christians but both didn't make it.

Nope - ONLY the sheep, wise virgins/builders, good fish/servants, wheat were saved - that's the whole point of the parables - don't just think that because you hear the gospel and want to go to Heaven and see Jesus that you ARE saved - OBEDIENCE is the key evidence - without it - NO salvation!


The men with the talents, first two put it to work, they had hope but the one who
was given a talent, knew the Master well, didn't put it to work, he was cast to hell.

No - he didn't know the Master well at all - he had a warped and resentful vierw of Him because he DIDN'T know Him - he knew a LITTLE about Him - and justified his inactiivity - again, no obedience - no salvation.


The wicked are not judged based on their relationship with the saints. If a wicked person feeds the saints, or gives them a drink, or invites the stranger in, or cloth a saint, he cannot earn his way into heaven with good works, he must know God and obey the gospel 2Th.1:8;

Agreed.


But the saints must practice faith, hope and love and if we don't
we shall be condemned.

Those who claim to be saints must do this - if we don't, it shows we're not saints.


The sheep are the saved who exercised the blessing of being saved.

No - the sheep are the saved. Period. Read John 10.


The goats are the saved who did not exercise the blessing of being saved.

RJ

No - the goats, foolish virgins/builders, bad fish/servants and tares are "fake" Christians - the spiritual deadwood that is present in every visible church (to a greater or lesser extent - sometimes obvious, often less so) - those who do not abide in Christ and will ultimately be burned.

ShirleyFord
Jun 13th 2008, 01:07 PM
What is the difference in the bema seat and white throne?

None. They are the same. There is only one last general judgement before God, our Lord and Savior, before one Judge on one throne of God.

Jesus said, "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son" (John 5:22)

Romans 14:10-12 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.



2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.



Revelation 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

RJ Mac
Jun 13th 2008, 01:15 PM
Mark - we agree on the text, what I think we disagree on is once saved ...
When I view the text I see where Christians are capable of falling,
ie goats, virgins, talents, ... You don't believe Christians can fall from grace.

I believe nothing can separate us from the love of God, nothing outside of
ourselves, only self can separate us from God. I can be a Christian for many
years and then fall into sin and be lost. Samson had the HS and lost the HS.
Paul says "..you have fallen from grace!" Gal.5:4
"...Demas having loved this present world has deserted me..."
John says "There is a sin leading to death..." the death of a Christian.
The 7 letters in Rev. is all about repent or perish, written to Christians.

The evidence is overwhelming, I can fall, by my own actions, but no one one
or thing can make me fall, its my lust I must beware of, Ja.1:14,15;
But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
Then wen lust is conceived it gives birth to sin and when sin is accomplished
it brings forth death.

So when we view the text you have to interpret it accordingly and so must I
therefore the two shall not agree, though they do partially.

I believe OSAS is a man made doctrine, it contradicts too many warnings
to the individual Christian, of the danger of drifting from the truth and
being lost, so be vigil.

RJ

The Parson
Jun 13th 2008, 01:31 PM
Technically there isn't any because all thrones are thrones of judgement but when ppl use those terms it tends to be that the "bema seat" is Christ's throne when he judges and the "great white throne judgement" is referring to when his Father judges.Actually no. Jesus Christ is the judge of both.

9Marksfan
Jun 13th 2008, 01:43 PM
Mark - we agree on the text, what I think we disagree on is once saved ...
When I view the text I see where Christians are capable of falling,
ie goats, virgins, talents, ... You don't believe Christians can fall from grace.

I believe nothing can separate us from the love of God, nothing outside of
ourselves, only self can separate us from God. I can be a Christian for many
years and then fall into sin and be lost. Samson had the HS and lost the HS.
Paul says "..you have fallen from grace!" Gal.5:4
"...Demas having loved this present world has deserted me..."
John says "There is a sin leading to death..." the death of a Christian.
The 7 letters in Rev. is all about repent or perish, written to Christians.

The evidence is overwhelming, I can fall, by my own actions, but no one one
or thing can make me fall, its my lust I must beware of, Ja.1:14,15;
But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
Then wen lust is conceived it gives birth to sin and when sin is accomplished
it brings forth death.

So when we view the text you have to interpret it accordingly and so must I
therefore the two shall not agree, though they do partially.

I believe OSAS is a man made doctrine, it contradicts too many warnings
to the individual Christian, of the danger of drifting from the truth and
being lost, so be vigil.

RJ

I also believe OSAS is a man made doctrine - that's why I believe in POTS! (Perseverance of the Saints, if you weren't aware). I believe that it is ONLY this doctrine that can be harmonised with Scripture - the commonly held view of OSAS (viz once you profess faith in Christ, you are eternally secure and no matter WHAT you do (presumbaly including giving up faith in God at all!), you will be saved - you will simply "lose your reward" and be saved as through fire) is just completely unbiblical - you and I will agree that the evidence in Scripture for this is indeed overwhelming.

However, I also believe that the doctrine of NOSAS (to which you hold) contradicts far to many clear passages and twists the verses it uses to uphold its teachings. I believe that the solution is to be found in understanding the visible church (mixed body of true beleivers and make-believers) and the invisible church (the true believers that ONLY God can ultimately and with 100% accuracy know). Once this is accepted, I believe all the Scriptures fall into place. What we will agree on, I'm sure, is that "he who endures to the end will be saved" - it's just HOW that happens that we disagree on - and whether it will ALWAYS happen to those who are true believers.

The huge problem I see with NOSAS is that it makes man more powerful than God - and teaches (as you have said) that man's free will to reject Christ once he has started to follow Him can overcome God's best efforts to keep that Christian. That really does not square with the covenant making and covenant keeping God of the Bible......

Buck shot
Jun 13th 2008, 05:10 PM
None. They are the same. There is only one last general judgement before God, our Lord and Savior, before one Judge on one throne of God.
I disagree to one "general" judgement, lets look at the verses you used...:hmm:

Jesus said, "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son" (John 5:22)

Romans 14:10-12 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Judgement seat of Christ (<Bema> used here also)
We can figure that Elijah would also be judged, right?


2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2Co 5:10 For <gar> we <hemas> must <dei> all <pas> appear <phaneroo> before <emprosthen> the judgment seat <bema> of Christ <Christos>; that <hina> every one <hekastos> may receive <komizo> the things done in <dia> his body <soma>, according <pros> to that <hos> he hath done <prasso>, whether <eite> it be good <agathos> or <eite> bad <kakos>.

bhma bema, bay'-ma ; a step, i.e. foot-breath; by implication, a rostrum, i.e. a tribunal:--judgment-seat, set (foot) on, throne.

This is where the "Bema seat" judgement came from for those that are curious.


Revelation 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Re 20:11 ¶ And <kai> I saw <eido> a great <megas> white <leukos> throne <thronos>, and <kai> him that sat <kathemai> on <epi> it <autos>, from <apo> whose <hos> face <prosopon> the earth <ge> and <kai> the heaven <ouranos> fled away <pheugo>; and <kai> there was found <heurisko> no <ou> place <topos> for them <autos>.

yronov thronos, thron'-os; from thrao (to sit); a stately seat ("throne"); by implication, power or (concretely) a potentate:--seat, throne.

The reason I brought up Elijah earlier is because the great white throne judgement will be of the dead. I believe this to be the spiritual dead as well as physically. You could argue that this is because all are dead at this point. If it was not for those that God just took to be with Him without them dying. We know all will be judged but I don't think together. The sheep (saved) will be judged by Jesus on His righteous seat and the goats (unsaved) will be judged by Jesus on His throne...

ShirleyFord
Jun 13th 2008, 05:56 PM
Hi Buck shot,


The reason I brought up Elijah earlier is because the great white throne judgement will be of the dead. I believe this to be the spiritual dead as well as physically. You could argue that this is because all are dead at this point. If it was not for those that God just took to be with Him without them dying. We know all will be judged but I don't think together. The sheep (saved) will be judged by Jesus on His righteous seat and the goats (unsaved) will be judged by Jesus on His throne...

In the literal reading of Matthew 25 I can't find anything that would suggest that the judgement of the sheep (righteous) and the goats (unrighteous) are judged at different times from two different thrones by Jesus. But we find that both groups are judged at the same time "when the Son of man shall come in his glory".

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

And we see the judgement the goats (unrighteous) received:

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.....

And the judgement the sheep (righteous) received:

...but the righteous into life eternal.


We find Jesus speaking about the same judgement in John 5:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Notice, Jesus says all that are in the graves. And that all in the graves shall hear His voice and all shall come out of the graves; not just some, those who are saved.

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.




I don't see any difference in the judgement seat of Christ and the throne of Christ.

We find several more instances in the Bible of "the judgement seat" and the judgement seat means throne.

We find Pilate's judgement seat in which Jesus was judged:


Mt 27:19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.

Jn 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.

Certainly Pilate's judgement seat was his throne that he judged from.

We find "the judgement" seat mention at least these 6 times in the book of Acts:

Acts 18:12 And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,

Acts 18:16 And he drave them from the judgment seat.

Acts 18:17 Then all the Greeks took Sosthenes, the chief ruler of the synagogue, and beat him before the judgment seat. And Gallio cared for none of those things.

Acts 25:6 And when he had tarried among them more than ten days, he went down unto Caesarea; and the next day sitting on the judgment seat commanded Paul to be brought.

Acts 25:10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.

Acts 25:17 Therefore, when they were come hither, without any delay on the morrow I sat on the judgment seat, and commanded the man to be brought forth.

The Parson
Jun 13th 2008, 06:18 PM
What is the difference in the bema seat and white throne?I believe that the Great White Throne Judgment is the final judgment before the lost are cast into the lake of fire. (Not to be confused with Hell). This takes place after Satan, the False Prophet & the Beast, are thrown into the lake of fire.

The BEMA seat or Judgement Seat of Christ is described in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 and here is where debate starts among Christians Teke. And if they do believe in the two seperate judgements, they usually argue about the timing. It's actually a no issue because one way or another we all are going to be judged. Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Buck shot
Jun 13th 2008, 06:37 PM
Hi Buck shot,
Howdy Shirley,

In the literal reading of Matthew 25 I can't find anything that would suggest that the judgement of the sheep (righteous) and the goats (unrighteous) are judged at different times from two different thrones by Jesus. But we find that both groups are judged at the same time "when the Son of man shall come in his glory".
I also am a literal person as you are. ;) I see it differantly but just as literal.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

And we see the judgement the goats (unrighteous) received:

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.....

And the judgement the sheep (righteous) received:

...but the righteous into life eternal.
Could Jesus not very easily call all of us together no matter where we were? Meaning, the saved already be with Him and the unsaved coming for judgement. Jesus could have brought us all together to show the unsaved world that they were given the same chance we were. Then telling us to get over yonder on my right, it's time to settle this once and for all.


We find Jesus speaking about the same judgement in John 5:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Notice, Jesus says all that are in the graves. And that all in the graves shall hear His voice and all shall come out of the graves; not just some, those who are saved.

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I believe this is the resurrection of our physical bodies, our souls will already be with the Lord.


I don't see any difference in the judgement seat of Christ and the throne of Christ.

We find several more instances in the Bible of "the judgement seat" and the judgement seat means throne.

We find Pilate's judgement seat in which Jesus was judged:

You are right, Jesus was judged by Pilate from Pilate's seat or throne, whichever you prefer to call it but do you think Jesus really had anything to fear. I don't think you do and nor do I. A "seat" leaves me to believe we have a chance for mercy but a "throne" (to me) means punishment. It may just be me but I don't think it's coincidence that when our KJV tells us that Jesus was on His seat he was talking to us and when He sat on His throne He is talking to the unsaved.

There are many references to seats and thrones in both the New and Old Testament. We just view them differantly :kiss:

Naphal
Jun 13th 2008, 07:02 PM
Jesus said, "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son" (John 5:22)


This only applies to a limited time or set of circumstances because we are told the Father does judge elsewhere:

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Here God is a reference to God the father who is the judge of all, meaning all who have lived and died. When Jesus returns he will only judge the ones on the earth whether they are dead or not.



John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Here we are told directly by Christ that it will be his Father which judges in the last day. That's the judgement day in Rev 20 as opposed to when Jesus judges at the 2nd coming.

Naphal
Jun 13th 2008, 07:04 PM
Actually no. Jesus Christ is the judge of both.

Not according to Jesus. See my last post.

ShirleyFord
Jun 13th 2008, 07:15 PM
Howdy Shirley,

I also am a literal person as you are. ;) I see it differantly but just as literal.

Hey how u doin Buck shot.


Could Jesus not very easily call all of us together no matter where we were? Meaning, the saved already be with Him and the unsaved coming for judgement. Jesus could have brought us all together to show the unsaved world that they were given the same chance we were. Then telling us to get over yonder on my right, it's time to settle this once and for all.

Could have. But does Matthew 25 indicate that to you? Perhaps you could point out to me exactly where you believe the sheep are not being judged along with the goats. I certainly could have missed it.




I believe this is the resurrection of our physical bodies, our souls will already be with the Lord.


I agree brother.



You are right, Jesus was judged by Pilate from Pilate's seat or throne, whichever you prefer to call it but do you think Jesus really had anything to fear. I don't think you do and nor do I. A "seat" leaves me to believe we have a chance for mercy but a "throne" (to me) means punishment. It may just be me but I don't think it's coincidence that when our KJV tells us that Jesus was on His seat he was talking to us and when He sat on His throne He is talking to the unsaved.

So you are saying then that Jesus received Pilate's mercy and not his judgement?

I agree with you that we who are in Christ receive His mercy and not His judgement of what we should receive as do the goats (the unsaved) who rejected Him. But we are judged nevertheless by His mercy while the unsaved are judged without His mercy, as Scripture so clearly shows.

In the OT tabernacle we find the mercy seat of God which covered the ark of the covenant. When the high priest went in once a year having done all that was commanded of him to enter in and taking the blood of slain sacrificed animals and sprinkling it on the mercy seat, he and all Israel received God's mercy. But that same mercy seat could have become a judgement seat, a judgement throne, as well and God could have wiped out that high priest, his priests and all of Israel.




There are many references to seats and thrones in both the New and Old Testament. We just view them differantly :kiss:

I agree. :kiss:

The Parson
Jun 13th 2008, 07:17 PM
Not according to Jesus. See my last post.I won't debate the issue with you my friend. But my bible says John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Naphal
Jun 13th 2008, 07:26 PM
I won't debate the issue with you my friend. But my bible says John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.


Mine says that too, but lets also let these two portion of verses be posted along side those:

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

The Parson
Jun 13th 2008, 07:30 PM
And Jesus is God my friend. ie, I and the Father are one. We could back and forth on this one to be sure but you make a fantastic point. :D

ShirleyFord
Jun 13th 2008, 07:32 PM
This only applies to a limited time or set of circumstances because we are told the Father does judge elsewhere:

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Here God is a reference to God the father who is the judge of all, meaning all who have lived and died. When Jesus returns he will only judge the ones on the earth whether they are dead or not.



John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Here we are told directly by Christ that it will be his Father which judges in the last day. That's the judgement day in Rev 20 as opposed to when Jesus judges at the 2nd coming.

But Jesus didn't say that His Father had given Him all judgement for a limited time or set of circumstances in John 5:22, "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"

Notice, Jesus said all judgement.


And again in John 5:27, "And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man."


And then Jesus goes on to show that He is the judge with the same authority at the future one general judgement of the saved and of the unsaved:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Hebrews 12:23 nor Revelation 20:11-20 mention the Father but both say "God". Don't you believe that Jesus is God?

DeafPosttrib
Jun 13th 2008, 07:36 PM
Napal,

During Christ's ministry on earth. He was humble as servant. Whilst, Christ obeyed his Father in heaven. This was his example, that we should obey our master as servant.

But, when after Christ risen. God, the Father did exalted Christ up. in John 5:27 says, "And hath given hiim(Christ) authority to excute judgment also, because He(Christ) is the Son of man."

God, the Father did exalted Christ as authority, well, as He is now the King over all.

Notice John 5:28-29 says, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

This teaching us, when Christ shall come at second advent, all in the graves over the world, both unsaved and saved shall hear his voice(according to Matt. 24:31; 1 Thess. 4:16; & 1 Cor. 15:51) shall be shout to call all to rise up from the graves. Some shall go into everlasting punishment, some shall go enter eternal life. This is very clear teaching of the general judgment day. The only ONE future judgment day, not two or three judgments according Dispensationalism doctrine.

Also, in Phil. 2:9-11 saying: "Where God also hath highly exalted him(Christ), and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, (1.)things in heaven, and (2.) things in earth, and (3.) things under the earth,; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ IS THE LORD, to the glory of God the Father."

Apostle Paul tells us, when after Christ risen from the death, God, the Father already exalted Christ, by given him the authority over everything from heaven, earth, and hell too. Christ is the Lord, even, well also, He is the King.

Every individual from heaven, earth, and hell, all shall bow before Christ, and confess that He is the Lord.

Yes, Christ shall sit on the throne to judge the world at His coming.

Isn't Jesus, the deity of God? He is the Son of God.

There is the only ONE Throne set in the heaven, no other else.

Revelation chapter 4 is a good example of throne.

Of course, I am aware that many saying that the Bible telling us, Christ ios sit on the "right hand of God the Father" in the heaven, prove that there are two thrones in heaven.

For my belief, God is the Spirit, he has no body. Only Jesus Christ already have body.

I love the picture as post as what I saw at the Christian bookstore. There is a picture of Trinity of God, whilst Jesus in person, hugs a man, God. the Father's huge hands is shown, as the dove fly above Jesus. This is the shown of Trinity of God. This is the biblical.

I do believe there is only one literal physical throne set up in the heaven.

Well, also, "bema of Judgment" and "great throne" are the one same throne.

Jesus is 100% God. Jesus is 100% King. Jesus is 100% Lord. Also, Jesus is 100% Judge.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Naphal
Jun 13th 2008, 07:36 PM
And Jesus is God my friend. ie, I and the Father are one. We could back and forth on this one to be sure but you make a fantastic point. :D

Thanks. Yes, Jesus is God but when a verse has God as one being and then mentions Jesus separately then the person referred to as God is "God the Father" as in this verse:

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

We know that "God the judge of all" is not Jesus because Jesus is separately referred to as "the mediator of the new covenant". That is not to say the bible is excluding Jesus as being God but often scripture shortens the longer title of "God the Father" to just "God" and we are left to discern that :)

So just to understand your position. You believe that only Jesus will judge and that the Father will not judge, and that even applies to judgement "in the last day"? Also, when you said, "I and the Father are one" were you implying they are one person or being?

Naphal
Jun 13th 2008, 07:41 PM
But Jesus didn't say that His Father had given Him all judgement for a limited time or set of circumstances in John 5:22, "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"

Notice, Jesus said all judgement.

He also does not say all judgement for all time. We are left to interpret it and by weighing other scriptures that speak of the Father Judging then we know that Jesus judging and the Father not judging was for a limited purpose and/or time. Jesus does say that the Father will judge in the last day and thus that is the truth.




Hebrews 12:23 nor Revelation 20:11-20 mention the Father but both say "God".
Don't you believe that Jesus is God?



Of course. All you have to do is read my profile to learn that. We have to discern when "God" refers to Jesus and when it refers to his Father. See my above post where I show how this is done.

Naphal
Jun 13th 2008, 07:45 PM
The only ONE future judgment day, not two or three judgments according Dispensationalism doctrine.

This is incorrect. There is a clear judgement when Jesus returns and there is also a clear final judgement 1000 years later when Jesus said his Father would judge "in the last day".

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is that last day. This is not the second coming judgement time by Christ.

ShirleyFord
Jun 13th 2008, 07:56 PM
He also does not say all judgement for all time. We are left to interpret it and by weighing other scriptures that speak of the Father Judging then we know that Jesus judging and the Father not judging was for a limited purpose and/or time. Jesus does say that the Father will judge in the last day and thus that is the truth.

Where does Jesus or any other Scripture that you have found say that Jesus is given authority to judge for a limited time or in certain circumstances.

Where does Jesus say that the Father will be the judge on the last day?

You are using John 12:48-49

John 12:48-49 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Notice what Jesus said would judge on the last day: "the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." He doesn't say that the Father will be judging on the last day.

Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees. He was again showing them that He was the Son of God, their Messiah, the Promised Messiah of all of the Jews. He spoke and obeyed what His Father told Him during His earthly ministry.


Of course. All you have to do is read my profile to learn that. We have to discern when "God" refers to Jesus and when it refers to his Father. See my above post where I show how this is done.

Brother, I know that you believe that Jesus is God. But you seem to be making references of "God" to only the Father.

Buck shot
Jun 13th 2008, 07:59 PM
Hey how u doin Buck shot.

I am doin' fantastic & it's Friday! Gina and I plan to go to an orchard tomorrow to pick up some fruit to can along with all the veggies we've been putting up ;) I hope you are doin' well also!

Could have. But does Matthew 25 indicate that to you? Perhaps you could point out to me exactly where you believe the sheep are not being judged along with the goats. I certainly could have missed it.

I too could be missing something, all will be revieled in it's appointed time. Seems to me that we were already judged prior to being sent over to the right. I feel we are even being judged as we do our work here. You notice that Jesus told of the talents just before this. He even said that those of us that used the talents that He gave us wisely He would give even more. I see this happening in our lives now. When God gives us a gift and we use it for His Kingdom, He gives us another. This does not address our final judgement but I think it does effect it.

The main reason I feel this is not "the judgement" of all is that it seems more of an overview of the final judgement. Notice in the parable neither of the guys that used their talents wisely was judged for punishment but for reward. The "useless" fellow was judged for punishment. The two "good" guys recieved reward of eternal service and the bad one not only was not allowed to serve but was given eternal punishment.


So you are saying then that Jesus received Pilate's mercy and not his judgement?
No, not at all. I am saying that Jesus did not fear his judgement.


I agree with you that we who are in Christ receive His mercy and not His judgement of what we should receive as do the goats (the unsaved) who rejected Him. But we are judged nevertheless by His mercy while the unsaved are judged without His mercy, as Scripture so clearly shows.

In the OT tabernacle we find the mercy seat of God which covered the ark of the covenant. When the high priest went in once a year having done all that was commanded of him to enter in and taking the blood of slain sacrificed animals and sprinkling it on the mercy seat, he and all Israel received God's mercy. But that same mercy seat could have become a judgement seat, a judgement throne, as well and God could have wiped out that high priest, his priests and all of Israel.

Okay, could this be the same chair but called differant names for differant purposes? Could this same seat be used for the marriage supper and the judgement of mankind? I can't wait to find out!:hmm:

The Parson
Jun 13th 2008, 08:00 PM
Thanks. Yes, Jesus is God but when a verse has God as one being and then mentions Jesus separately then the person referred to as God is "God the Father" as in this verse:

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

We know that "God the judge of all" is not Jesus because Jesus is separately referred to as "the mediator of the new covenant". That is not to say the bible is excluding Jesus as being God but often scripture shortens the longer title of "God the Father" to just "God" and we are left to discern that :)

So just to understand your position. You believe that only Jesus will judge and that the Father will not judge, and that even applies to judgement "in the last day"? Also, when you said, "I and the Father are one" were you implying they are one person or being?Can we honestly with this tounge and mind describe the substance of the Godhead. I don't think that is possible really. God is the Father, God is the Son, & God is the Holy Ghost. Three distinct yet one. Never ending... Distinct in Purpose yet in total agreement and still one and the same... Nope, I was right, cant do it with this feeble mind.

ShirleyFord
Jun 13th 2008, 09:18 PM
I am doin' fantastic & it's Friday! Gina and I plan to go to an orchard tomorrow to pick up some fruit to can along with all the veggies we've been putting up ;) I hope you are doin' well also!

Thanks Buck shot, I am recovering from a 11 day stay in the hospital recently with accute broncitus and congestive heart failure. I'm getting stonger every day as I rely on my Lord to strengthen and completely heal me.

Canning fruits and vegetables are my cup of tea! I'm an old country farm girl having grown up on the farm. So did my husband. We are city folk now though. But I do miss the country and growing our own fruits and vegetables and then canning them and freezing them.

I know that you and Gina will enjoy your day together.



I too could be missing something, all will be revieled in it's appointed time. Seems to me that we were already judged prior to being sent over to the right. I feel we are even being judged as we do our work here. You notice that Jesus told of the talents just before this. He even said that those of us that used the talents that He gave us wisely He would give even more. I see this happening in our lives now. When God gives us a gift and we use it for His Kingdom, He gives us another. This does not address our final judgement but I think it does effect it.

The main reason I feel this is not "the judgement" of all is that it seems more of an overview of the final judgement. Notice in the parable neither of the guys that used their talents wisely was judged for punishment but for reward. The "useless" fellow was judged for punishment. The two "good" guys recieved reward of eternal service and the bad one not only was not allowed to serve but was given eternal punishment.

I believe that the 3 parables in Matthew 25 depict His Second Coming and the Final judgement of two groups of people, those in Christ and those without Christ. And I believe that the sheep/goat judgement is the clearest.

So far as the talents, Jesus final judgement of that unprofitabel servant in v. 30, "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

This man was evidently a lost unsaved goat. We who are saved and in Christ will not be cast into eternal punishment and suffer the second death by having unfrutful works according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 4:13-15

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

None of us would have a chance at eternal life with Jesus when He returns if we were judged according to how well we did things in the name of Christ in this life.

Notice also with those 3 men with the talents, all of them are judged at the same time. The 2 guys receive their eternal reward and the 1 guy receives his eternal reward.


The righteous saved along with the unrighteous unsaved will be judged according to our works at the last general judgement.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

We find the same in the judgement of the talents and the sheep/goats judgement in Matthew 25.

I don't think God will be deciding who are saved and who are lost at the last general judgement. That will already have been decided in this life before we die or before He returns, whichever comes first. But His judgement is righteous judgement. We who are His at His Coming receive His righteous judgement of mercy. Those who are not just receive His righteous judgement. We will not receive His punishment but His Mercy.






No, not at all. I am saying that Jesus did not fear his judgement.



No He didn't but He was judged at Pilate's judgement seat and received the death penalty.


Okay, could this be the same chair but called differant names for differant purposes? Could this same seat be used for the marriage supper and the judgement of mankind? I can't wait to find out!:hmm:

The Bible mentions only one throne of God. The judgement seat and throne are clearly the same, just different wording, I believe.

We find the marriage supper in Revelation 19 occuring at the Second Coming of Christ when He judges all mankind.

We see the same judgement of the saved and the lost in Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Naphal
Jun 13th 2008, 10:47 PM
Where does Jesus or any other Scripture that you have found say that Jesus is given authority to judge for a limited time or in certain circumstances.

I've posted the verses in question twice now. Jesus himself said his Father would judge on the last day which means that it won't be Jesus doing the judging so the verse that appears to say Jesus is the only judge is clearly limited by God. The interpretation of it is faulty.




Where does Jesus say that the Father will be the judge on the last day?

You are using John 12:48-49



Why did you ask me if you knew exactly where it was?




John 12:48-49 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Notice what Jesus said would judge on the last day: "the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." He doesn't say that the Father will be judging on the last day.



Yes he does, "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me"

He isn't speaking of himself judging on the last day but the Father.





Brother, I know that you believe that Jesus is God. But you seem to be making references of "God" to only the Father.

In this particular verse "God" is a reference to God the father, not God the son.

ShirleyFord
Jun 14th 2008, 12:56 AM
I've posted the verses in question twice now. Jesus himself said his Father would judge on the last day which means that it won't be Jesus doing the judging so the verse that appears to say Jesus is the only judge is clearly limited by God. The interpretation of it is faulty.

Prophecying of the First Coming of Jesus, Isaiah calls Him everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

This blows my mind. But I don't try to figure it out. I just accept it because it is what Scripture says. And so I believe it.

I agree with the Parson that it is impossible with our finite minds to be able to grasp the three in One, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. God is 3 in One; not three God's but three persons who make up the One Godhead and they are in absolute agreement.

John explains it in 1 John 5:7-8 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


At Jesus water baptism by John the Baptist, we have clear evidence of the 3 in one at the same time in different places doing 3 different things but all for the same purpose.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Jesus is on earth in the water getting baptized by John the Baptist.

The Holy Spirit descends from heaven in the form of a dove and lighted on Jesus. John puts it like this in John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

The Father from heaven speaks of Jesus, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Jesus came and was born and lived and looked just like an other Jewish baby. Mary had to take care of Him just like any mother would until it seemed that she forgot at times exactly who Jesus was. He seemed so ordinary. That is why it was so hard for those who heard Jesus and saw the miracles He did to believe that He was the Promised Messiah. They were forever saying of Jesus, "We know him. We grew up with him. He is the carpenter. He is the carpenter's son. We know his mother and his sisters and his brethren."

Jesus was subject to Mary and Joseph and obeyed them until He was 30 years old. Then He was subject to His Father God and obeyed Him only. Jesus was still God during His earthly life but He chose to become a man a live as a man of God so He could die for our sins and pay its penalty and redeem us with His own body and blood. Plus He showed us by His life how we are to walk in the Spirit:

1 Pet 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:





Speaking of Jesus, Paul tells us in Colossians 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:




Yes he does, "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me"

He isn't speaking of himself judging on the last day but the Father.


In this particular verse "God" is a reference to God the father, not God the son.

Brother, I'm just not seeing how you get "God the Father will be judging on the last day" when Jesus is clearly speaking here that those who reject Him will be judged by His very words that He spoke to them on the last day.

John 12:48-49 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

You could rightly say it was the Father's words that Jesus was speaking so it would be the Father's words that would judge those who was hearing Him teach who rejected Jesus and the words He spoke even though Jesus spoke them. But I can't see in this Scripture where Jesus said anything about His Father judging on the last day.

And we can't forget what Jesus said in John 5:

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Then we find Him exercising His judgement on the last day:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Naphal
Jun 14th 2008, 03:00 AM
Prophecying of the First Coming of Jesus, Isaiah calls Him everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Since Oneness isn't allowed to be taught here lets not go down this route ok?



Brother, I'm just not seeing how you get "God the Father will be judging on the last day" when Jesus is clearly speaking here that those who reject Him will be judged by His very words that He spoke to them on the last day.

Christ says he came not to judge the world and true enough on the last day he will not be the one judging.







John 12:48-49 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

You could rightly say it was the Father's words that Jesus was speaking so it would be the Father's words that would judge those who was hearing Him teach who rejected Jesus and the words He spoke even though Jesus spoke them. But I can't see in this Scripture where Jesus said anything about His Father judging on the last day.



"hath one that judges him" ...the Him here is God the Father and Christ's words attest to this and that same Him shall judge on the last day. Then we just have to go to Rev 20 and see that it is not Christ who is judging on the last day.







And we can't forget what Jesus said in John 5:

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:


Balance that with this:

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

ShirleyFord
Jun 14th 2008, 04:05 AM
Since Oneness isn't allowed to be taught here lets not go down this route ok?

Why did you come to the conclusion that I was teaching Oneness by quoting Isaiah? Isaiah prophecied that Jesus is the Everlasting Father along with the other names he gave Him. Certainly we can't reject this. It is Scripture, God's words even though we can't fully understand it and grasp the Trinity.

Besides, I posted multiple Scriptures that showed the 3 in One which you didn't address.






Christ says he came not to judge the world and true enough on the last day he will not be the one judging.









"hath one that judges him" ...the Him here is God the Father and Christ's words attest to this and that same Him shall judge on the last day. Then we just have to go to Rev 20 and see that it is not Christ who is judging on the last day.


John 12:48-49 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


Jesus has already said in John 5 that that His Father judges no man (or that He ever would) but had committed all judgement to the Son.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

So it is very clear that the "one" who will be judging in John 12 is Jesus. Those judged will be judged by His own words.



Balance that with this:

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.


I agree. Jesus didn't come to judge the world at His First Coming but He will come as Judge at His Second Coming.

After the resurrection of Christ and just before His ascension, He said to His disciples in Matthew 28:18, All power (authority) is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Paul tells us in Colossians 1:12-19

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell


And in Colossians 2:10-15

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.



Jesus told His disciples that when they saw Him, they saw the Father.

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Diggindeeper
Jun 14th 2008, 04:14 AM
I disagree to one "general" judgement, lets look at the verses you used...:hmm:


Judgement seat of Christ (<Bema> used here also)
We can figure that Elijah would also be judged, right?

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The reason I brought up Elijah earlier is because the great white throne judgement will be of the dead. I believe this to be the spiritual dead as well as physically. You could argue that this is because all are dead at this point. If it was not for those that God just took to be with Him without them dying. We know all will be judged but I don't think together. The sheep (saved) will be judged by Jesus on His righteous seat and the goats (unsaved) will be judged by Jesus on His throne...

Buck shot, I have a question about "Elijah would be judged...."

How, then, do we reconcile that, with this?

Mark 9:2-4
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Both Moses and Elijah (BOTH!) appeared there, ALIVE, on that mountain...with Jesus! They were TALKING with him!

I offer that It is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but ...AFTER THIS...THE JUDGMENT! (Hebrews 9:27)

AND...

2 Corinthians 5:6-10
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Am I alone in believing ain't no grave gonna hold this old body down?
Jesus said "I am the resurrection...."

John 11:21-26
21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25 Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

I have instructed my family and friends NOT to bring flowers or other things to decorate my grave because I don't plan on being there! I truly do plan on going to be with the Lord!

Naphal
Jun 14th 2008, 04:19 AM
John 12:48-49 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


Jesus has already said in John 5 that that His Father judges no man (or that He ever would) but had committed all judgement to the Son.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:


This does not mean that the Father shall not judge at a time he has appointed.

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



1: To the general assembly and church of the firstborn

2: to God the Judge of all

3: to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant

Rightly dividing the one called God in number 2 is not Jesus but his Father. This does not mean that Jesus isn't God but he isn't being addressed as "God" here.

God the father is the judge of all according to the writer of Hebrews.






I agree. Jesus didn't come to judge the world at His First Coming but He will come as Judge at His Second Coming.



Of course he will. That is the appointed time for his day of judgement but his Father will judge ALL on the last day.

RJ Mac
Jun 14th 2008, 02:31 PM
Naphal and Shirley you both mention two comings of Christ can
you give me a time frame on those comings. I understand one
coming, so I am confused, which generally doesn't take much
to confuse me lately. Thanks.

RJ

Naphal
Jun 14th 2008, 04:45 PM
Naphal and Shirley you both mention two comings of Christ can
you give me a time frame on those comings. I understand one
coming, so I am confused, which generally doesn't take much
to confuse me lately. Thanks.

RJ

No, there is only one coming of Christ and that is when he returns at the 7th and last trump.

a sojourner
Jun 16th 2008, 02:53 AM
Then, Lord said to Moses, "Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I BLOT OUT OF MY BOOK."

...

Notice in Rev. 3:5, Christ warned: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

...

Also, in Rev. 22:19 warns us, if any person removed words from God's Word. So, God would removed person's name away from the book of life, and cast person away in the lake of fire.


Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

I think that each of these verses paint a pretty clear picture, connecting the 'book of life' with sin/righteousness. In the Parson's opening post he said this:


The first would be that I believe without a shadow of a doubt that there are two books. The first is the Book of Life, which I believe contains our name at birth. And then there is the Lamb's Book of Life which in my mind contains our names once we are born again. This is really influenced by my own conviction of Eternal Security.

From what I gather (and Parson - correct me if I am misreading what you said) he is saying that the 'book of life' deals only with life and death, while 'the Lamb's book of life' deals with salvation.

In looking at the passages that I quoted about, I think that the 'book of life' clearly has to do with salvation, because each verse deals with issues of sin/righteousness. The best example may be that when a man does not overcome (a term I think we can all agree deals with salvation) his name is blotted out from the 'book of life.'

I think that DeafPosttrib actually put it pretty well. As another member said, the two terms 'the book of life,' and 'the Lamb's book of life' are really one term found in scripture in two ways. One is simply a shortened version of the other.

Diggindeeper
Jun 16th 2008, 03:50 AM
Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


John saw...
Verse 12: John saw...the BOOKS (plural) were opened Which BOOKS?

Verse 12: John saw...another BOOK (singular) was opened, which IS the "Book of Life." (This time, it is clear WHICH book!)

Verse 12: John saw...the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the BOOKS, according to their works. This tells me records are being kept on each one of us! WOW! Makes me want to make sure my record is CLEAN, and PURE, and WORTRHY!

Verse 13: John saw...they were judged every man according to their works. (REMEMBER, they were judged out of the BOOKS, every man according his works that have been written down in the BOOKS!) Nothing is said about "loss of rewards" here!

After they are judged, those not found written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire.

ShirleyFord
Jun 16th 2008, 04:11 AM
Naphal and Shirley you both mention two comings of Christ can
you give me a time frame on those comings. I understand one
coming, so I am confused, which generally doesn't take much
to confuse me lately. Thanks.

RJ

RJ,

The Bible mentions two Comings of Christ:

1. His First Coming - past

2. His Second Coming - future


So He is Coming again One more time.


Shirley

RogerW
Jun 17th 2008, 01:04 AM
Books (many) have recorded every name, and every deed done by the dead; i.e. the spiritually dead, e.g. unbelievers. These book(s) are called the book of the living. Not to be confused with the Lamb’s book of life; the book of life.

It’s been argued that since this passage in Ex 32 speaks of blotting out whosoever sinned against God, therefore it must be speaking of the Lamb’s book of life. But the context shows us that this is speaking of being blotted out of the book of the physically living, and not the Lamb’s book of life. Unbelievers are blotted out of the book of the living when they physically die, and they are remembered no more.

Ps 115:17 “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”

Jer 11:19 But I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying, Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered.

Eze 21:32 Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.

Ps 109:13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.

Ex 32:7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
Ex 32:8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
Ex 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
Ex 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
Ex 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

Ex 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Ex 32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
Ex 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
Ex 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Ex 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Ex 32:34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.
Ex 32:35 And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

De 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

Ps 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

In addition to the books recording the names and works of unbelievers, there is also found a book, which is the book of remembrance, or the book of life, the Lamb’s book of life.

Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
Mal 3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Ps 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Da 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Lu 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Php 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow laborers, whose names are in the book of life.

Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Christ has saved to the uttermost all who come unto God by Him, and He continually makes intercession for them. By His own blood He entered once into the holy place and obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Since we have already been eternally redeemed, and Christ ever lives to make intercession for us, when we (believers) stand before the judgment seat, Christ appears in the presence of God for us. All judgment is committed to the Son (Jo 5:22). All judgment is relative to the Son (Ro 2:16). Those who are in Christ have no sin, therefore no condemnation (Ro. 8:1). Our sins have been both judged and put away in our Lord’s sacrifice (Heb. 10:12-17).

Ro 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

When we (believers) stand in the Judgment, we too will judge the world, for we (believers) shall reign with Christ!

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Lu 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

It is only those who have never been made alive in Christ; i.e. “the dead” (unbelievers) who stand before God to be judged according to their works done in the flesh.

Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The dead are judged out of the book(s), not the Lamb’s book of life. Unbelievers stand in the Judgment, and the many books that have recorded their names and deeds (works) are opened, and the sea gave up the dead (unbelieving), and death and hell deliver up the dead in them, and every unbeliever is judged according to their works. And death (there shall be no more dying) and hell (the grave will be obsolete without dying) are cast into the lake of fire.

Vs. 12 & 15 could be read thus, “And I saw the dead, small and great stand before God; and the books (plural) were opened, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the books, according to their works: and another book (singular) was opened, which is of life, and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

This is confirmed by:
Re 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

vs. 14...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Unbelievers who have died and await the Judgment in hell (the grave) receive the second death. Those who have part in the first resurrection (born again; spiritual life), the second death has no power over (vs. 6).

vs. 13...And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

This verse is not saying that every man is judged according to their works, but they…who are they? The dead (unbelievers) from the sea, and death and hell that delivered up the dead (unbelievers) are they who were judged every man according to their works.

vs. 12...book(s) recording the names and works of the dead (unbelievers), not believers. Believers names have been written in the Lamb’s book of life from the foundation of the world.

According to the Scripture all the names recorded in the Lamb's book of life were written there before the foundation of the world. I do not find anywhere in Scripture where names are added to the Lamb's book of life when we become saved. All who will be saved are already written there.

Many Blessings,
RW

Naphal
Jun 17th 2008, 01:11 AM
vs. 13...And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

This verse is not saying that every man is judged according to their works, but they…who are they? The dead (unbelievers) from the sea


How do we know with certainty that the dead from the sea are only unbelievers? Has no believer drowned or died in the sea?

RogerW
Jun 17th 2008, 01:16 AM
How do we know with certainty that the dead from the sea are only unbelievers? Has no believer drowned or died in the sea?

Greetings Naphal,

Because believers are not referred to as "the dead". When Scripture speaks of believers who die they are referred to as the dead in Christ. How could believers be referred to as the dead since we are promised everlasting, eternal, never ending life? Even though we die physically, we are never dead, but simply enter into eternal life with the Lord.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Many Blessings,
RW

Naphal
Jun 17th 2008, 01:34 AM
Greetings Naphal,

Because believers are not referred to as "the dead".

Sure they are.


Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

This isn't speaking of the resurrection of the unbelieving dead.


Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Nor this.



When Scripture speaks of believers who die they are referred to as the dead in Christ.

Sometimes but not always.




How could believers be referred to as the dead since we are promised everlasting, eternal, never ending life?

Because believers have to die just like the unbeliever dies.






Even though we die physically, we are never dead, but simply enter into eternal life with the Lord.



No one is fully dead until they are cast into the lake of fire. Both unbeliever and believer are alive after death and wait for judgement.

RogerW
Jun 17th 2008, 01:43 AM
How do we know with certainty that the dead from the sea are only unbelievers? Has no believer drowned or died in the sea?

Greetings Naphal,

I wanted to intercept a possible misunderstanding before it occurs. I am aware that 1Co 15 speaks of the dead, and is speaking of believers. I needed to make the point that when Paul speaks of "the dead" here he is speaking about the physical body and the bodily resurrection in the fullness of time. Even though it speaks of believers as "the dead" here, vs 18 clearly shows us that he is speaking of the dead in Christ.

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

It is our physical bodies that die, because they are flesh, and flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Jun 17th 2008, 02:03 AM
Sure they are.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

This isn't speaking of the resurrection of the unbelieving dead.

This passage is speaking of spiritual resurrection for those who are dead in trespasses and sins.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Quickened - make alive, spiritual resurrection!



Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Nor this.

This passage too is speaking of spiritual resurrection.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Eph 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.




Sometimes but not always.

Unless it is speaking of the physical body which dies. But as I have already showed you, the body can die, but believers never die.



Because believers have to die just like the unbeliever dies.

Not true! The believers body, just like the unbelievers body dies, but when we physically die we go immediately into the presence of the Lord. Not so of the unbeliever. They simply go to the grave/hell/pit and wait in darkness until the fullness of time.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.



No one is fully dead until they are cast into the lake of fire. Both unbeliever and believer are alive after death and wait for judgement.

Not true! If believers had to stand in the Judgment in the same way the unbeliever then we would not now be free of all condemnation.

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Many Blessings,
RW

Naphal
Jun 17th 2008, 05:38 AM
Greetings Naphal,

I wanted to intercept a possible misunderstanding before it occurs. I am aware that 1Co 15 speaks of the dead, and is speaking of believers.

And I believe that the dead, both believers and unbelievers, are judged on the last day, shown in Rev 20.

Naphal
Jun 17th 2008, 05:46 AM
Not true! If believers had to stand in the Judgment in the same way the unbeliever then we would not now be free of all condemnation.

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Many Blessings,
RW

All are judged, some to life and some to death.

RogerW
Jun 17th 2008, 02:05 PM
All are judged, some to life and some to death.

Judge - krino properly, to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by implication, to try, condemn, punish:--avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.

I have already shown you that saints are to judge the world. Believers are already alive, so why would they need to be judged to life? That makes no sense. Unbelievers "the dead" are judged according to their works, and since they are not found written in the Lamb's book of life they are cast into the lake of fire.

Many Blessings,
RW

One additional thought. Why are the dead judged according to their works? There are passages from Scripture that seem to speak of varying degrees of punishment.

Lu 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Lu 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Lu 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Note: we've wondered from the op. Perhaps we can get back to the question of whether there are books or a book in heaven?

tgallison
Jun 17th 2008, 02:22 PM
[quote=Naphal;1671716]This only applies to a limited time or set of circumstances because we are told the Father does judge elsewhere:

Naphal greetings

When we see the word God by itself, then we are looking at the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, each time it is set by itself. If you believe in the Trinity.

No one has ever seen God the Father. God is a Spirit, you cannot see a spirit. Jesus being an integral part of the Godhead, is a Spirit. A Spirit that was manifested in the flesh.

The Bible says the Son is the right arm and hand of the Father. Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?" This is only one of many verses describing Jesus as the arm of God. He is the voice or Word of God. His body is the Temple of God. All the physical attributes of God that we are able to observe come from Jesus.

As far as we know Jesus was only separated from the Father once. When his flesh died for our sins.

When Jesus said, John 6:29 "--This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (by the way, when Jesus said this is the work of God he was including himself--John 10:30 "I and my "Father are one.), you would think that because Jesus is sent he is separated from the Father. Not so. John 8:29 "And he that sent me is with me:--."

When God spoke to Moses from the burning bush, it was Jesus speaking, for he is the Word of God. If Jesus created the heaven and the earth at the will of the Father, then it was not a big thing for him to speak to Moses. When the Word came to Abram, it was the shield, and exceeding great reward, Jesus. Jesus shields us from the cause of death, sin. Jesus is our reward.


Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

"I and my father are one" Jesus will be doing the judging, because he is the right arm, to whom has been given all judgment. He is an integral part of the Godhead. It will be God judging.


Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Here God is a reference to God the father who is the judge of all, meaning all who have lived and died. When Jesus returns he will only judge the ones on the earth whether they are dead or not.

Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant, because He is God manifested in the flesh.



John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Here we are told directly by Christ that it will be his Father which judges in the last day. That's the judgement day in Rev 20 as opposed to when Jesus judges at the 2nd coming.

This proves the point.

Jesus didn't say the Father will judge, he said my words shall judge him. Jesus is the Word of God manifested in the flesh, that makes him judge along with the Father, and the Holy Spirit. Thus you have the Trinity.

Any judging being done will be by the only begotten Son at the commandment of the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit.

tgallison
Jun 17th 2008, 02:32 PM
How can they have been righteous and God never knew them? :confused

Ezekiel 3:20 "Again, when a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

This is a picture of the righteous Job, the stumblingblock is Jesus, and the witness that is to give the warning is us.

9Marksfan
Jun 18th 2008, 01:35 PM
Ezekiel 3:20 "Again, when a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

This is a picture of the righteous Job, the stumblingblock is Jesus, and the witness that is to give the warning is us.


Huh?!?!? :confused:confused:confused

How can we give Job a warning? He's been dead for 1000s of years!!! Where does he appear in Ezekiel? And how was Jesus a stumbling block to the righteous man in Ezekiel?

And what has ANY of this to do with Jesus saying that he did NOT know these people?

tgallison
Jun 18th 2008, 02:47 PM
[quote=9Marksfan;1676479]Huh?!?!? :confused:confused:confused
How can we give Job a warning? He's been dead for 1000s of years!!!

We can't. Elihu was his witness, he was speaking God's words.


Where does he appear in Ezekiel?

Ezekiel 3:20 is speaking of a righteous man, and when he sins. Job was the most righteous, and he did sin.



And how was Jesus a stumbling block to the righteous man in Ezekiel?

He is the stumbling block that all men must come to grips with. When you fall, you allow Jesus to catch you, or you die in your sins.


And what has ANY of this to do with Jesus saying that he did NOT know these people?

Your question was, "How can they have been righteous and God never knew them?"

There are two types of righteousness, God's and mans. The verse in Ezekiel depicts mans righteousness, similar to Job's, and states that if that man sins, his righteousness will not be remembered. One can conclude from that, that God would say I never knew you, since he is going to die in his sins.

Jesus is the stumblingblock that will take away our sins, but it is necessary that there be a witness.

Romans 10:13-14 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

We know that Jesus was there for the Old Testament saints for Jesus said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." John 8:56

terrell