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FASE
Jun 11th 2008, 02:03 AM
Do you believe Non Christians can go to Heaven?

I believe Non Christians can go to heaven. Why do I believe this? Well first some people have never heard of God as we know him they may know him in a different name but still believe there is only one God. Some people in the world never heard of the bible or Jesus or God and they do good things as people. I believe these people will go to Heaven. How can you expect someone to be a Christian if they have never heard of God and the Bible? I also believe that Jewish people and Muslims can go to heaven and other religions that I do not really no about.

What do you think?

Reynolds357
Jun 11th 2008, 02:15 AM
Do you believe Non Christians can go to Heaven?

I believe Non Christians can go to heaven. Why do I believe this? Well first some people have never heard of God as we know him they may know him in a different name but still believe there is only one God. Some people in the world never heard of the bible or Jesus or God and they do good things as people. I believe these people will go to Heaven. How can you expect someone to be a Christian if they have never heard of God and the Bible? I also believe that Jewish people and Muslims can go to heaven and other religions that I do not really no about.

What do you think?

Being a monotheist does not get one into heaven. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me." Jesus is the only way to heaven.

Athanasius
Jun 11th 2008, 02:18 AM
Do you believe Non Christians can go to Heaven?

I believe Non Christians can go to heaven. Why do I believe this? Well first some people have never heard of God as we know him they may know him in a different name but still believe there is only one God. Some people in the world never heard of the bible or Jesus or God and they do good things as people. I believe these people will go to Heaven. How can you expect someone to be a Christian if they have never heard of God and the Bible? I also believe that Jewish people and Muslims can go to heaven and other religions that I do not really no about.

What do you think?

I think you're teaching something very dangerous.
Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims... They aren't going to Heaven if they haven't accepted Christ. Now where 'haven't heard' the Gospel message of Christ, I present the following...

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

FASE
Jun 11th 2008, 02:31 AM
But how can you expect someone being brought up by birth as a Jew convert into a Christian? Also do you not think that God should be the one to Judge weather they go to heaven. Also I will try and find this very interesting artical I found about how Jewish people and people of other religions can still get into Heaven. I really hope I can find it, it is a real eye opener. But Xel'Naga you are right they do not go into heaven without excepting Christ. But if they die on earth as a Jew or Muslim it does not mean that they don't go to heaven. I no this is not making very much sense but I will explain better later.

Reynolds357
Jun 11th 2008, 02:34 AM
But how can you expect someone being brought up by birth as a Jew convert into a Christian? Also do you not think that God should be the one to Judge weather they go to heaven. Also I will try and find this very interesting artical I found about how Jewish people and people of other religions can still get into Heaven. I really hope I can find it, it is a real eye opener. But Xel'Naga you are right they do not go into heaven without excepting Christ. But if they die on earth as a Jew or Muslim it does not mean that they don't go to heaven. I no this is not making very much sense but I will explain better later.


What did Jesus say? NO MAN cometh unto the Father but by me! It is pretty simple. When Jesus spoke, God spoke.

FASE
Jun 11th 2008, 02:39 AM
Yes, Jesus is God. Did you read everything you quoted?

Reynolds357
Jun 11th 2008, 02:42 AM
Yes, Jesus is God. Did you read everything you quoted?

Yeah I read it. You could get a stack of articles a mile high that say whatever. The Bible, the only relavent book on who does and does not enter heaven, says they will not enter Heaven except through the Son.

calidog
Jun 11th 2008, 03:02 AM
What do you think?
I believe those who reject Christ will go to hell. Whosoever is written in the book of life will go to heaven. If this includes those who have'nt heard the gospel but believed what God HAS given them they will likely be found in the book of life I would be guessing. The only thing we can be certain of is God is judge of all.

Joe King
Jun 11th 2008, 04:35 AM
I do not believe non Christians go to heaven. I trust our LORD's judgement. Many people have been lead astray, but he knows the heart. I just hope as many people as possible enjoy heaven, myself first and foremost.

givemegrace
Jun 11th 2008, 05:31 AM
I find this question a hard one!! Well the bible says we enter heaven through Jesus. I believe God is a gracious God and those, for
whatever reason who do not hear the gospel are saved by the grace of God. I often question my own salvation. There are times I would not doubt my salvation but then again there are times I am not so sure... This whole subject frightens me a little.. I trust in God that all my loved ones will be saved. I do find it difficult to get my head around heaven and hell. I have had 2 dreams and its as if I am being told that heaven and hell are the real deal, this is what it is all about. God wants no one to perish, it is our duty as christians to let others see the love of Jesus shine out of us and spread to Good News. :pp Jesus is risen and lives in us......... amen:pray::pray::pray: We all have freewill, we all have a choice, scary eh!!!...

Buzzword
Jun 11th 2008, 05:34 AM
What about the billions who lived in the Americas while Mesopotamia was being settled?

Did God really sentence trillions of people across the millenia to eternal torment because the Christian world didn't know they existed yet?

Or could God (as the Holy Spirit) speak to the hearts of men, inspiring them to teach His truth and His law and the message of His Son WITHOUT the spiritual descendants of the 12 apostles?

Such inspiration WOULD use different names than our Christian traditions, because those inspired would not have a physical, historical man as reference.

Native American tribes have many stories of a "Great Spirit," a creator deity who speaks through animals, or physically takes the form of an animal (which represents a person's ancestor in many tribes' beliefs) to share a truism or a message about how to live.

I believe there will be many in Heaven who DO refer to our Creator and Savior and Comforter by different names than we have come to use for them.

I also believe it does not reflect the character of God to banish from His presence those who have heard and obeyed His voice, even without a tidy "come to Jesus" meeting.

matthew94
Jun 11th 2008, 06:09 AM
We can only get to heaven through Christ

Whom Christ allows to go through Him is His choice, not mine

Personally, I think there is a very good chance that people we wouldn't label as 'Christian' will get to heaven through Jesus. If I'm right it'll be b/c they honestly pursued truth as best they could (remember, Jesus is the Way and the Truth) and will be rewarded with the Life.

Athanasius
Jun 11th 2008, 06:18 AM
What about the billions who lived in the Americas while Mesopotamia was being settled?

There was Yahwaic religion before Abraham... We at least know this much because of Melchizedek. Now, even ignoring him we know that all people started out in one concentrated area and then moved outward (assuming you take the Bible literally at the beginning). So... At least in the beginning they weren't completely left in the dark. The 'billions in America' (really, where did you come across this number?) are, either way, without excuse as per Romans 1:20.



Did God really sentence trillions of people across the millenia to eternal torment because the Christian world didn't know they existed yet?

No, of course not. Do you think God works only through Christian means? Big phenomena going on right now: Muslims are meeting Jesus in their dreams and are being led to Christ, Christianity. This is outside the work of any human, Christian, means.

Allow me to assume some what... And assert that God's been doing this sort of thing for a very long time. After all; how do you think He revealed Himself to Abraham?



Or could God (as the Holy Spirit) speak to the hearts of men, inspiring them to teach His truth and His law and the message of His Son WITHOUT the spiritual descendants of the 12 apostles?

Such inspiration WOULD use different names than our Christian traditions, because those inspired would not have a physical, historical man as reference.

Oh, they would most definitely be focused around the person of Jesus, even if by a different name (which is quite arbitrary, to be honest). The religion whose God died for His people... It's central to Christianity. Any teaching the Holy Spirit does revolves around the work of Christ.

Their beliefs would line up with the Word, by the way.



Native American tribes have many stories of a "Great Spirit," a creator deity who speaks through animals, or physically takes the form of an animal (which represents a person's ancestor in many tribes' beliefs) to share a truism or a message about how to live.

'Great Spirit', and... What? Superficial similarities do little to nothing. You have to dig into their deeper theological teachings to see what exactly they believe. In the case of native America tribes... There's a lot gone awry.



I believe there will be many in Heaven who DO refer to our Creator and Savior and Comforter by different names than we have come to use for them.

The Bible says that if we search, God will come.
That includes everyone, even if they don't know that little bit of information. And in such cases God is the judge... Unless one were able to enter into a conversation with such a person, in which case theology would be a pertinent discussion:hmm:

But with that said I absolutely think it possible for people to come to a knowing of Christ through revelation, say, where Christian missionaries haven't been.



I also believe it does not reflect the character of God to banish from His presence those who have heard and obeyed His voice, even without a tidy "come to Jesus" meeting.

No one's saying you have to have a tidy "come to Jesus" meeting to be saved, God can reveal Himself to people many ways. But keeping in mind that this revelation would absolutely not contradict with scripture, it would agree with scripture.

You either come to God because of the work of men, or you come to God because He came knocking (whether or not you were searching). Now with that said, accepting Christ means rejecting all else. There are no Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc. in Heaven.

Zack702
Jun 11th 2008, 06:26 AM
I also believe it does not reflect the character of God to banish from His presence those who have heard and obeyed His voice, even without a tidy "come to Jesus" meeting.


But isn't this the message Jesus shows ? People who are good will be accepted. Do lots of good in your life and you will be known as good and will be invited in. But if you follow after to much crime or hate or whatever you know the things you get into you might get caught as bad which is bad so be good. Hey if you are thankful for good people then you can be thankful for Jesus because that is what he teaches us to be.

About the Native American's there history is really cool and many of them did have great insight into the spiritual things. But what about the written history of them? From what I have read for the most part Native Americans used pictures to show basic ideas but never came up with any written languages until a Cherokee named Sequoyah did around 1800. They called our writings "talking leaves" but never produced any themselves unless I am mistaken.
So many of them lived in harmony just as they thought without needing to know how to write guidelines but still lived right and did good and even great things (and if they did good in there life then they deserve heaven). I have heard people say that Native Americans had no religion but I consider they were very religious even tho they had no ancient text. There were probably many Native Americans that are more worth of heaven than many of us today. I have a great grandmother who was a Native American Cherokee who lived in North Carolina but I never got to meet her.

Roelof
Jun 11th 2008, 07:27 AM
Do you believe Non Christians can go to Heaven?

I believe Non Christians can go to heaven.
I also believe that Jewish people and Muslims can go to heaven and other religions that I do not really no about.

What do you think?

Fase

Sorry, but this is New Age.

This is the ONLY way to get into Heaven:

Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. (Rom 10:9)

Saved7
Jun 11th 2008, 07:29 AM
Do you believe Non Christians can go to Heaven?

I believe Non Christians can go to heaven. Why do I believe this? Well first some people have never heard of God as we know him they may know him in a different name but still believe there is only one God. Some people in the world never heard of the bible or Jesus or God and they do good things as people. I believe these people will go to Heaven. How can you expect someone to be a Christian if they have never heard of God and the Bible? I also believe that Jewish people and Muslims can go to heaven and other religions that I do not really no about.

What do you think?

I think you are not a christian, and this sort of belief doesn't belong in the church, that is clearly not what the bible teaches. If you disagree with it, take it up with God, He said it, not us, we just agree because we trust Him.

daughter
Jun 11th 2008, 07:36 AM
Zack... the "message Jesus showed" as you put it was not "Do lots of good in your life and you will be known as good and will be invited in. But if you follow after to much crime or hate or whatever you know the things you get into you might get caught as bad which is bad so be good."

Jesus' message was "be ye perfect". He said that unless our righteousness exceeds that of scribes and pharisees, the most scrupulously religious group in Israel, then we couldn't enter heaven.

In other words, Jesus' message was that unless we were PERFECT, sinless in fact... without having committed one sin, we would never enter the kingdom of heaven.

There is only one way to be seen as perfect... and it's not "doing lots of good."

We are in a whole world of trouble if we try to get into heaven by our own works, rather than through Jesus Christ. Our works should be done not to "get into heaven", but as a thankful fruit and joyful outpouring to the Lord who saved us.

But don't imagine that doing good will get you into heaven. "There is no one righteous, no, not one." Sorry... but we need to understand the bad news before we can accept the good news.

Saved7
Jun 11th 2008, 07:40 AM
Zack... the "message Jesus showed" as you put it was not "Do lots of good in your life and you will be known as good and will be invited in. But if you follow after to much crime or hate or whatever you know the things you get into you might get caught as bad which is bad so be good."

Jesus' message was "be ye perfect". He said that unless our righteousness exceeds that of scribes and pharisees, the most scrupulously religious group in Israel, then we couldn't enter heaven.

In other words, Jesus' message was that unless we were PERFECT, sinless in fact... without having committed one sin, we would never enter the kingdom of heaven.

There is only one way to be seen as perfect... and it's not "doing lots of good."

We are in a whole world of trouble if we try to get into heaven by our own works, rather than through Jesus Christ. Our works should be done not to "get into heaven", but as a thankful fruit and joyful outpouring to the Lord who saved us.

But don't imagine that doing good will get you into heaven. "There is no one righteous, no, not one." Sorry... but we need to understand the bad news before we can accept the good news.

Amen.................

Athanasius
Jun 11th 2008, 08:23 AM
But isn't this the message Jesus shows ? People who are good will be accepted. Do lots of good in your life and you will be known as good and will be invited in. But if you follow after to much crime or hate or whatever you know the things you get into you might get caught as bad which is bad so be good. Hey if you are thankful for good people then you can be thankful for Jesus because that is what he teaches us to be.

No, that's not what Jesus taught.
If this is a view you wish to advance I ask that you provide scripture.

If you're up to doing that, then I also ask you consider the following:

Luke 18:19
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Duane Morse
Jun 11th 2008, 08:37 AM
Zack... the "message Jesus showed" as you put it was not "Do lots of good in your life and you will be known as good and will be invited in. But if you follow after to much crime or hate or whatever you know the things you get into you might get caught as bad which is bad so be good."

Jesus' message was "be ye perfect". He said that unless our righteousness exceeds that of scribes and pharisees, the most scrupulously religious group in Israel, then we couldn't enter heaven.

In other words, Jesus' message was that unless we were PERFECT, sinless in fact... without having committed one sin, we would never enter the kingdom of heaven.

There is only one way to be seen as perfect... and it's not "doing lots of good."

We are in a whole world of trouble if we try to get into heaven by our own works, rather than through Jesus Christ. Our works should be done not to "get into heaven", but as a thankful fruit and joyful outpouring to the Lord who saved us.

But don't imagine that doing good will get you into heaven. "There is no one righteous, no, not one." Sorry... but we need to understand the bad news before we can accept the good news.
So then, Daughter...

You are perfect and without sin?
Every day of every hour of every second of every millisecond?

Are you without sin this day, yesterday, tomorrow?





If so...

I envy you.

daughter
Jun 11th 2008, 08:43 AM
No. I am not without sin. In fact, I'm a rank and disgusting sinner, and can't get through an hour, let alone a day, without sin.

That's why I need Jesus to be my righteousness for me, and why my only hope is in Him. Because if it wasn't for Him, I'd be in hell, which is exactly what I deserve.

godsgirl
Jun 11th 2008, 10:46 AM
No. I am not without sin. In fact, I'm a rank and disgusting sinner, and can't get through an hour, let alone a day, without sin.

That's why I need Jesus to be my righteousness for me, and why my only hope is in Him. Because if it wasn't for Him, I'd be in hell, which is exactly what I deserve.


AMEN! This is why Jesus came-to pay the price --for all of us- who are lost and on or way to hell-Jesus is the reason God will pardon our sin-because our debt has been paid in full. The Bible says that we will find God when we seek Him with our whole heart-because He is already out looking for us. Jesus in not only the "way" He is the "door" through which we all must go-if we won't then our destination is sealed. All roads do not lead to Rome and all ways do not lead to heaven. Only Jesus!

Buzzword
Jun 11th 2008, 12:34 PM
There was Yahwaic religion before Abraham... We at least know this much because of Melchizedek. Now, even ignoring him we know that all people started out in one concentrated area and then moved outward (assuming you take the Bible literally at the beginning). So... At least in the beginning they weren't completely left in the dark. The 'billions in America' (really, where did you come across this number?) are, either way, without excuse as per Romans 1:20.

Billions who lived and died over the millenia between Creation and when the first missionaries (ie....conquistadors....) came to this hemisphere.

In other words, billions of souls.

I think God's revelation would be in line with Christ, but there's just so much of the world that has been archaeologically proven to have been settled and populated before the time of Abraham, or at the same time but with no evidence of contact between the regions...that God could reveal Himself, but then the oral traditions of worship could easily have taken a different direction than they did in Mesopotamia.

I think it's okay for God to use different names for Himself with different people, as long as we are all seeing the same God (as opposed to a custom-made version of Him).

calidog
Jun 11th 2008, 02:48 PM
God did not hesitate to reveal himself to mankind in ancient times.


Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. And have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and all animals that move upon the earth.

Gen 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, you are about to die, for the woman whom you have taken; for she is a man's wife.
Gen 20:4 But Abimelech had not come near her. And he said, Lord, will You also kill a righteous nation?
Gen 20:5 Did he not say to me, She is my sister? And she, even she herself said, He is my brother. In the sincerity of my heart and innocency of my hands I have done this.
Gen 20:6 And God said to him in a dream, Yes, I know that you did this in the sincerity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me. Therefore I did not allow you to touch her.
Gen 20:7 Now therefore, restore his wife to the man. For he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live. And if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.
Gen 20:8 And Abimelech rose early in the morning, and called all his servants, and told all these things in their ears. And the men were greatly afraid.

John146
Jun 11th 2008, 03:26 PM
Do you believe Non Christians can go to Heaven?

I believe Non Christians can go to heaven. Why do I believe this? Well first some people have never heard of God as we know him they may know him in a different name but still believe there is only one God. Some people in the world never heard of the bible or Jesus or God and they do good things as people. I believe these people will go to Heaven. How can you expect someone to be a Christian if they have never heard of God and the Bible? I also believe that Jewish people and Muslims can go to heaven and other religions that I do not really no about.

What do you think?

I think you are absolutely wrong.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6

10Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. - Acts 4:12

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. - John 3:36

Do you not accept what verses like these clearly teach?

fewarechosen
Jun 11th 2008, 03:56 PM
see the whole thing boils down to is what is a christian

god is love so christ is love

now if on a island a man who never heard the word christ , but inside his heart he feels he should do right to his fellow man and actually lives love. thus he is christian by his actions not his words.

you are confessing christ when you love
many confess christ with thier lips but their heart is far from him

who am i to say he wont go to heaven --for my father is the judge not me

fewarechosen
Jun 11th 2008, 04:05 PM
I think you are not a christian, and this sort of belief doesn't belong in the church, that is clearly not what the bible teaches. If you disagree with it, take it up with God, He said it, not us, we just agree because we trust Him.


wow

have you not read- judge not lest ye be judged

god and christ are love
you confess christ when you love

many think they trust in god, just as the pharisees did
but their hearts are far from him. confessing god with thier lips not with the hearts.

and they shall have their reward

matthew94
Jun 11th 2008, 04:24 PM
I think some people in this thread are making a key mistake

Yes, Jesus is the only way to heaven
But that doesn't NECESSARILY mean the people getting to Heaven through Jesus know His name. Jesus has every single right to accompany an ignorant person to the Father. Everyone has the light of CREATION pointing to a Creator. Everyone has the light of CONSCIENCE pointing to a law-giver. If someone ignorant of th name of Christ responds positively to those 2 lights, they are responding to truth. Jesus IS 'the truth.' He has every right to save them. This would not be 'another way' into heaven, but 'The Way' (Jesus) reaching them in their ignorance.

I also think Saved7 was out of line with the comment "i think you are not a Christian"

calidog
Jun 11th 2008, 04:44 PM
God has ordained the preaching of the word by men but it is God who saves. He is able to reach the unreachable.

ProDeo
Jun 11th 2008, 04:48 PM
Do you believe Non Christians can go to Heaven?

I believe Non Christians can go to heaven. Why do I believe this? Well first some people have never heard of God as we know him they may know him in a different name but still believe there is only one God. Some people in the world never heard of the bible or Jesus or God and they do good things as people. I believe these people will go to Heaven. How can you expect someone to be a Christian if they have never heard of God and the Bible? I also believe that Jewish people and Muslims can go to heaven and other religions that I do not really no about.

What do you think?

Welcome FASE. Tricky question. Quick answer is no, because of:

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the true and living way: no one comes to the Father but by me.

and many other passages as well. Nobody goes to heaven without Jesus.

That doesn't exclude the possibility that God may have something special in mind for those who never had the chance to hear about Jesus. But the Bible is silent about that.

Ed

Kingsdaughter
Jun 11th 2008, 04:53 PM
What happens to those who have died and have NEVER heard the gospel message that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation? I don't know, but I know that God is perfect and doesn't make a mistake, He is just.

sunsetssplendor
Jun 11th 2008, 05:20 PM
Do you believe Non Christians can go to Heaven?

I believe Non Christians can go to heaven. Why do I believe this? Well first some people have never heard of God as we know him they may know him in a different name but still believe there is only one God. Some people in the world never heard of the bible or Jesus or God and they do good things as people. I believe these people will go to Heaven. How can you expect someone to be a Christian if they have never heard of God and the Bible? I also believe that Jewish people and Muslims can go to heaven and other religions that I do not really no about.

What do you think?

I do not think non-christians are going to heaven. I think those
that deny Jesus, the Son of God will surely perish. I do not think
Muslims Or Jewish people or ANYONE (unless they believe in Jesus as the
Son of God) are going to heaven. Everyone will be given ample
opportunity and that is why as Christians we must seek to help
the lost. I am sorry but the bible is very clear on this.

matthew94
Jun 11th 2008, 05:37 PM
I think we ALL agree that anyone that REJECTS Jesus isn't going to make heaven. I doubt that's what the opening poster was really asking about. I gather that the OP is asking about those who are too ignorant to accept Him, but don't actively reject Him. Of course, if the opening poster thinks otherwise, they are free to clarify their position.

sunsetssplendor
Jun 11th 2008, 05:43 PM
I also believe that Jewish people and Muslims can go to heaven and other religions that I do not really no about


I think we ALL agree that anyone that REJECTS Jesus isn't going to make heaven. I doubt that's what the opening poster was really asking about. I gather that the OP is asking about those who are too ignorant to accept Him, but don't actively reject Him. Of course, if the opening poster thinks otherwise, they are free to clarify their position.




Did he not say Muslims and Jews are going to heaven? It's clear they
reject him - actively or not.

grit
Jun 11th 2008, 05:52 PM
What happens to those who have died and have NEVER heard the gospel message that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation? I don't know, but I know that God is perfect and doesn't make a mistake, He is just.
I think that's the key with things like this - better in His hands than mine.

There can be little doubt of the Scripture's insistence on one way to heaven - through Jesus the Son. The question that both Biblical history and our personal experience brings to bear is just who is a Christian in God's eyes?

I'm one of those who sees in Christian Scripture than even Adam and Eve, if they were saved, had to be saved the same way any one of us is - through the sacrificial payment of Jesus for our sins. Now, I have little doubt that Adam and Eve did not know a lot about Jesus and especially did not know him by the name "Jesus", but they knew they were sinners unworthy of the same fellowship they had with God before their becoming sinners, they knew they were incomplete within themselves toward restoring that fellowship, and that they needed God's intervention in remaking them into what they had lost by their sin.

We often say Adam and Eve and the rest of God's people before the birth of Jesus looked forward to salvation by God's messiah, whereas we today look back to what Jesus accomplished. Seeing as Adam and Eve were the first parents of us all, and based on what Scripture tells us of God's imprint within man (particularly in Romans 1), I think a basic knowledge of the One True God is common among most humans of any era or religious inclination. Of course the Scriptures also tell us that Satan and the deamons have this basic knowledge too.

The sticky part is in what it takes in God's judgment to actually be in-Christ, to be considered as having come to God through Jesus and so be worthy of heaven? I think there may very well be people who have been drawn to the One True God through the One True Christ in an unconventional way, and who may even think of themselves as Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons or Jewish or Muslim or Native American or Hindu or any number of other labels. There can be little doubt that only Christianity is true when compared with the falseness of any system of belief that counters the truth of Christianity. That is, one cannot be both a NON-Christian and a Christian in the same sense as what God requires of being in-Christ to get to heavenly fellowship with God. In that sense one cannot be a Non Christian and go to Heaven. However, one can certainly be in-Christ, in God's judgment, without a thorough understanding of the Scriptural theology we modern Christians are privileged to have been made aware of - the whole Gospel of Jesus as recorded for us in our Christian Scriptures. All one really needs is a belief in Jesus in the same sense that Adam and Eve may have had - that they are sinners, that God is perfect, and that in order for them to not continue as sinners in God's judgment God must do (or have done) something to alieviate the mess of their being a sinner. We call this Jesus, but they may very well call it something else while having it still be Jesus in God's judgment.

But it is also certainly worth cautioning that if New Testament Christians were so easily confused and led astray back into a false self-reliance on their own good works in keeping the Law (sometimes called Judaizing) as opposed to a recognition of their need for Jesus' sacrifice for their sins, then it is dangerously perilous to be in an ancient Mayan culture, or a Muslim culture, or among Mormons or Buddhists or Secular Humanists and yet cling to and nurture that hope of Christ that God has placed within you, whatever one calls it. If even Christians who walked with Christ can easily stumble into wrong-thinking, then those who, in-Christ, know Christ in some unconventional way by the gracious power of God, would do well to quickly learn the details of the Gospel as the rest of us more conventionally do.
:hug:

Buzzword
Jun 11th 2008, 06:03 PM
Did he not say Muslims and Jews are going to heaven? It's clear they
reject him - actively or not.

This could easily get into a debate about what "rejecting" qualifies as. :P

Both Jews and Muslims ACCEPT Jesus as a prophet and teacher...as unrealistic as that is.

matthew94
Jun 11th 2008, 06:06 PM
Did he not say Muslims and Jews are going to heaven? It's clear they
reject him - actively or not.

He said they 'can', not that they 'are'

And by 'can' he may mean that a person raised in a muslim or jewish home may have never heard about Christ (or only heard mis-information about Christ...and thus, be ignorant about the true Jesus). Such a person may respond positively to the truth that there is one Creator and may respond positively to their God-given conscience. They may be pursuing truth with their entire lifestyle, but simply haven't been told the truth about 'The Truth' (Jesus Christ). In a case like this, I don't think it's my call to determine whether or not Jesus can or will save such a person. He CAN if He wants. And if He did, it wouldn't be 'some other way' to get saved, it would be Jesus reaching out to an ignorant Muslim or Jew just like most Christians believe He reaches out to an ignorant child who dies before the age of accountability.

(by the way, dying before the 'age of accountability' isn't 'another way' to be saved either. We aren't arguing that children who die make it to heaven b/c they are innocent, we are arguing that children who die make it to heaven b/c Jesus' grace EXTENDS to them because of their ignorance. In this same way, Jesus grace may very well EXTEND to adults who are ignorant about Him but have otherwise pursued Him by pursuing truth)

Athanasius
Jun 11th 2008, 06:33 PM
Billions who lived and died over the millenia between Creation and when the first missionaries (ie....conquistadors....) came to this hemisphere.

In other words, billions of souls.

I think God's revelation would be in line with Christ, but there's just so much of the world that has been archaeologically proven to have been settled and populated before the time of Abraham, or at the same time but with no evidence of contact between the regions...that God could reveal Himself, but then the oral traditions of worship could easily have taken a different direction than they did in Mesopotamia.

I think it's okay for God to use different names for Himself with different people, as long as we are all seeing the same God (as opposed to a custom-made version of Him).

My answer, no matter how many [billions, trillions of] people, remains the same. God reveals himself through people, through nature, through dreams... Through supranatural means. I'm going to take God's word for what it says--no one is without excuse.

steph22nlly
Jun 11th 2008, 08:02 PM
I feel that these days with all the technology and transportation there is , it's our own faults if people around the world don't get to know Christ. We are to spread the word and share his love. Please don't get me wrong, I've never been on a mission YET, I plan to and believe it's our duty in life to get atleast 1 person into heaven! I've often wondered how someone who has never heard of him can make it to Heaven even if they are a good person. But I also know you can only get there through Jesus..

Another post brought up this question..Christians believe that Christianity is the only Right religion...I myself believe this and that other religions will not get you into heaven..But do these other religions even have a clue? Please forgive me I'm not very educated on other relgions and if this question is juvenile i'm sorry :O( But to my knowledge Christians are the only one's who believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins except maybe Catholics?..I know other religions worship other God's and Saints...Do other religions follow the Bible..If they do how can they have that religion and think its right??? Do they think Christians are worshiping the wrong God and we are going to Hell?

Please educate me.. thanks!

Buzzword
Jun 11th 2008, 08:48 PM
Another post brought up this question..Christians believe that Christianity is the only Right religion...I myself believe this and that other religions will not get you into heaven..But do these other religions even have a clue? Please forgive me I'm not very educated on other relgions and if this question is juvenile i'm sorry :O( But to my knowledge Christians are the only one's who believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins except maybe Catholics?..I know other religions worship other God's and Saints...Do other religions follow the Bible..If they do how can they have that religion and think its right??? Do they think Christians are worshiping the wrong God and we are going to Hell?

Please educate me.. thanks!

I think every religion has some part of truth.

Though I think we should differentiate between calling something a "religion" (ie, a set of beliefs that are generally agreed upon by their proponents) and a "cult" (a group that has splintered from a religion, taking SOME of its beliefs, altering others, and flat-out rejecting others).

Example:
Christianity -> religion
Mormonism -> cult

Servant89
Jun 11th 2008, 09:19 PM
Romans 2:10-15 shows that the people that lived and died without hearing the Bible, do not automatically go to hell. God is the judge and he does whatever he pleases and he has a system in place for those people that died under those circumstances.

It is written !!!!

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God. 12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Shalom

John146
Jun 11th 2008, 09:29 PM
I think some people in this thread are making a key mistake

Yes, Jesus is the only way to heaven
But that doesn't NECESSARILY mean the people getting to Heaven through Jesus know His name. Jesus has every single right to accompany an ignorant person to the Father. Everyone has the light of CREATION pointing to a Creator. Everyone has the light of CONSCIENCE pointing to a law-giver. If someone ignorant of th name of Christ responds positively to those 2 lights, they are responding to truth. Jesus IS 'the truth.' He has every right to save them. This would not be 'another way' into heaven, but 'The Way' (Jesus) reaching them in their ignorance.

I also think Saved7 was out of line with the comment "i think you are not a Christian"

I actually agree with you, but the issue I have in particular is with the suggestion that Muslims and religious non-Christian Jews (those into Judaism) can go to heaven. I'm speaking in terms of people who die as Muslims and religious Jews, of course. Since they rejected Christ, they do not go to heaven. Obviously, Muslims and Jews can be converted to Christianity before they die but if they die without accepting Christ, it's too late for them.

matthew94
Jun 11th 2008, 10:05 PM
I actually agree with you, but the issue I have in particular is with the suggestion that Muslims and religious non-Christian Jews (those into Judaism) can go to heaven. I'm speaking in terms of people who die as Muslims and religious Jews, of course. Since they rejected Christ, they do not go to heaven. Obviously, Muslims and Jews can be converted to Christianity before they die but if they die without accepting Christ, it's too late for them.

Hey :)

Let me ask you, do you know any people who call themselves 'Christians,' but only b/c their 'american' or 'from a Christian family' or b/c they 'attend church' (etc)? Do you know any 'Christians' who are almost completely ignorant of what Christianity is all about? If so, isn't it possible that there are some people born into Muslim families that are only given mis-information about Christ and yet are truly seeking the 1 true God, truly responding positively to their consciences, and truly would respond positively to Christ if they were given the real facts about Him? I am not prepared to say that is impossible. And I'm not prepared to say Jesus' love and justice couldn't save such a person.

Now, if you're talking about someone who is not ignorant of the truth, but rejecting of the truth, then I completely agree with you.

Just a thought,
matthew

Zack702
Jun 11th 2008, 10:16 PM
Jesus' message was "be ye perfect". He said that unless our righteousness exceeds that of scribes and pharisees, the most scrupulously religious group in Israel, then we couldn't enter heaven.

There is only one way to be seen as perfect... and it's not "doing lots of good."

The question was what about the people who never heard of Jesus. The words we know do not make Jesus what he is but he is with or without the words we describe. I understand in this way ... In the last day we will be seen by God he will require of Jesus is this one acceptable ? He knows we are not perfect for one cannot say I am perfect even if you are forgiven by Jesus. But he will accept us because Jesus will either forgive you or he won't. Then once you are baptized by him you will be perfect in heaven.

Doing lots of good and dying in your good nature is the only way to be forgiven if you do lots of bad and die in your bad nature you will not be forgiven.
If you say to yourself I can sin and die in my sin because Jesus sees me as perfect I say you are self righteous.

I understand for myself that while the name Jesus is my savior because he alone can/will forgive me of my sins it is still my works that will be the record against me. Else why need we his parables and why need he teach us our wrong?

Turning from bad ways and into good ways and dying in your good ways is the path to heaven in this Jesus will accept you by your good works and he will forgive you of your sins. He does not simply hand you a free pass to heaven because you know his name. In fact that we have a written history of Jesus Christ many understand his way by that name but this does not limit others who have already walked that path to salvation. Because they might not of known that name nor had Jesus even come as a man yet but they still deserve heaven and will see it because of there goodness not because of what they know. Knowing is the way to understand it but if you can understand without knowing (and live a good way) then I say you are very worthy of heaven.

calidog
Jun 11th 2008, 10:57 PM
Jesus said:
Mat 5:48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.



Mat 5:3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4Blessed are those who mourn, For they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7Blessed are the merciful, For they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.
Mat 5:9Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.
Mat 5:10Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11"Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.
Mat 5:12Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Mat 5:13"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.
Mat 5:14"You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.
Mat 5:15Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
Mat 5:16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.
Mat 5:17"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Mat 5:19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:20For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:21"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'
Mat 5:22But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
Mat 5:25Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
Mat 5:26Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
Mat 5:27"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'
Mat 5:28But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Mat 5:29If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Mat 5:31"Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'
Mat 5:32But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.
Mat 5:33"Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.'
Mat 5:34But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;
Mat 5:35nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
Mat 5:38"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
Mat 5:39But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
Mat 5:40If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.
Mat 5:41And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.
Mat 5:42Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.
Mat 5:43"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
Mat 5:44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
Mat 5:45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
Mat 5:47And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?

Mat 5:48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.


Only Jesus is or has ever been perfect, just as our Father in heaven is perfect.
Only those who meet these requirements go into the presence of God in heaven.

1Jn 3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be,

but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

1Jn 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

fewarechosen
Jun 11th 2008, 11:13 PM
who among these 2 is more christian

a muslim man who lives in a far away country and because of religious zelots never gets exposed to a bible
yet when his neighbor is hungry he brings him food, he lets strangers lodge in his house when they are weary from travel, he obeys the laws of his land, he treats his wife as his true love, and raises his children to be respectfull and learned.

or a guy who works 9-5 to horde his money so he can buy a boat, cheats on his wife and taxes , never gives anyone a penny, yet goes to church and confesses christs name then makes a post about it on the internet so he can feel saved.

woe is to you who think you can judge
you will have your reward
and they gnawed their tongues for pain

Duane Morse
Jun 11th 2008, 11:28 PM
Jesus said:
Mat 5:48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.


Only Jesus is or has ever been perfect, just as our Father in heaven is perfect.
Only those who meet these requirements go into the presence of God in heaven.

Which means that Jesus will be very lonely, given that none of us is that perfect.

You may say that we rest in the perfection of the Lord.
As daughter has said.

Yet, if you take these verses literally - none of us will ever see heaven.

calidog
Jun 11th 2008, 11:31 PM
Which means that Jesus will be very lonely, given that none of us is that perfect.

You may say that we rest in the perfection of the Lord.
As daughter has said.

Yet, if you take these verses literally - none of us will ever see heaven.
but when we read 1John 3:2 we see

1Jn 3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
1Jn 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.


We will be like Him, perfect, as our Father in heaven is perfect.

Brother Mark
Jun 11th 2008, 11:34 PM
who among these 2 is more christian

a muslim man who lives in a far away country and because of religious zelots never gets exposed to a bible
yet when his neighbor is hungry he brings him food, he lets strangers lodge in his house when they are weary from travel, he obeys the laws of his land, he treats his wife as his true love, and raises his children to be respectfull and learned.

or a guy who works 9-5 to horde his money so he can buy a boat, cheats on his wife and taxes , never gives anyone a penny, yet goes to church and confesses christs name then makes a post about it on the internet so he can feel saved.

woe is to you who think you can judge
you will have your reward
and they gnawed their tongues for pain

Neither is more Christian. Both sound lost to me.

fewarechosen
Jun 11th 2008, 11:36 PM
Neither is more Christian. Both sound lost to me.

how is the muslim lost ?

it was never his choice to not have a bible or hear christs name

Duane Morse
Jun 11th 2008, 11:36 PM
but when we read 1John 3:2 we see

1Jn 3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
1Jn 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.


We will be like Him, perfect, as our Father in heaven is perfect.
Then your statement about 'meeting the requirements' is false.

calidog
Jun 11th 2008, 11:39 PM
Then your statement about 'meeting the requirements' is false.this statement?


Only Jesus is or has ever been perfect, just as our Father in heaven is perfect.
Only those who meet these requirements go into the presence of God in heaven.



I don't believe it's false but I do believe we meet these requirements in Christ.

Zack702
Jun 11th 2008, 11:39 PM
Hello fewarechosen your words cut like a sharp knife. For I do consider them well thought.
As I (we?) understand things it is far from God to repay evil with good.
I do consider that that Muslim man is very worthy of heaven.



Only those who meet these requirements go into the presence of God in heaven.

I wonder who on this Earth has followed all these without any slack?

Who here can honestly say that from there youth to this day they never thought someone to be a fool. Who here has never been angry with there parents for any reason? (if there be one I say you are very blessed)


So I consider we must realize that even tho someone might be guilty of these they can turn away from there sins and do good things and be forgiven and continue in there good works the ones you listed and many more and that is there path to forgiveness. To me Jesus Christ is the light that I may clearly see that path and he is also the keeper of the door at the end of that path which leads to his Fathers lodge. So lets remember what he said about what we should do and not do and let us try to be careful and walk that path (for I know I find myself straying).

DeadtoSin
Jun 11th 2008, 11:42 PM
But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul. -Deuteronomy 4:29

Of course this is talking about the Jewish people, but God is merciful and I wholeheartedly believe that this same verse applies to them. If someone truly seeks out the creator of the universe, God will give them an opportunity/opportunities to find Christ.

I have heard of many instances of Islamic people having dreams about Christ when the gospel had never been preached in that area. Islamic people can be very sensitive to dreams, just as a part of their heritage and religion.

I do not know how God reached out to the people in the Americas, but I cannot imagine that if there were people in the Americas truly seeking God's will that they would not be reached in some manner.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

God would not throw even one man into hell if he was truly a seeker. God would find some way to reach out to this man and bring him salvation. I do not have all the answers, but that is my firm belief.

calidog
Jun 11th 2008, 11:44 PM
I wonder who on this Earth has followed all these without any slack?

Who here can honestly say that from there youth to this day they never thought someone to be a fool. Who here has never been angry with there parents for any reason? (if there be one I say you are very blessed)


Only One has done it.

Duane Morse
Jun 11th 2008, 11:45 PM
this statement?


Only Jesus is or has ever been perfect, just as our Father in heaven is perfect.
Only those who meet these requirements go into the presence of God in heaven.



I don't believe it's false but I do believe we meet these requirements in Christ.
So you believe that because you believe in Christ you are perfect and sinless?

There is a great amount of Grace in the forgiveness of sins.
We can not claim to be perfect or sinless just because we believe.

calidog
Jun 11th 2008, 11:45 PM
To me Jesus Christ is the light that I may clearly see that path and he is also the keeper of the door at the end of that path which leads to his Fathers lodge.Very well put. I'm with you on this one:)

calidog
Jun 11th 2008, 11:47 PM
So you believe that because you believe in Christ you are perfect and sinless?


No way. Quite the opposite. If you want a complete list of my sins you can get a complete copy from satan.

calidog
Jun 11th 2008, 11:49 PM
There is a great amount of Grace in the forgiveness of sins.
We can not claim to be perfect or sinless just because we believe.True, but if you believe in Christ God accounts you sinless does He not?

Brother Mark
Jun 11th 2008, 11:55 PM
how is the muslim lost ?

it was never his choice to not have a bible or hear christs name

God makes the truth evident within us. I know people that got saved without ever hearing the name of Jesus. They sought God and God revealed Jesus to them. When one seeks God, God allows himself to be found. The mulsim is lost because he thinks he can save himself through his good works.

calidog
Jun 11th 2008, 11:56 PM
There is a great amount of Grace in the forgiveness of sins.

I don't think you'll get an arguement here. Even Jesus said ALL sins are forgiven except one.

Duane Morse
Jun 11th 2008, 11:59 PM
True, but if you believe in Christ God accounts you sinless does He not?

Quite so.

Yet, both yours and daughters statements that being perfect was the requirement to gaining entrance into heaven is false.

If we had to be perfect, none of us would make it.

Funny that I was reprimanded by Project Peter for asking a simple question to daughter about this very subject.

calidog
Jun 12th 2008, 12:01 AM
how is the muslim lost ?

it was never his choice to not have a bible or hear christs nameSounds like his faith is in his works. One does'nt need a bible to be saved, and I doubt sincerely he has'nt heard of Christ. Muslims believe Christ was a prophet. To assume this person will die never being confronted with the Gospel is a major assumption, and one would also have to assume God can't or won't get the Gospel message to him.

Partaker of Christ
Jun 12th 2008, 12:07 AM
I think you're teaching something very dangerous.
Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims... They aren't going to Heaven if they haven't accepted Christ. Now where 'haven't heard' the Gospel message of Christ, I present the following...

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

Hi Xel'Naga!

Since these folk are without excuse, I guess that we as Christians have even less excuse. Can you show me how from this verse says, we find the gospel of salvation through Christ alone. That He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. How do we find that He is the narrow gate, and the narrow path.

How do these verses back up your understanding of Romans 1:20

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

fewarechosen
Jun 12th 2008, 12:09 AM
God makes the truth evident within us. I know people that got saved without ever hearing the name of Jesus. They sought God and God revealed Jesus to them. When one seeks God, God allows himself to be found. The mulsim is lost because he thinks he can save himself through his good works.


11For there is no respect of persons with God.
12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

he is not thinking he can save himself by doing works

he is the law unto himself

but im sure we both dont have the same understanding of this scripture

Zack702
Jun 12th 2008, 12:10 AM
True, but if you believe in Christ God accounts you sinless does He not?

In my understanding he accepts Jesus Christ.
And Jesus Christ accepts people who are good.

I consider you cannot "say" anything that will prove you are good for I consider God knows your heart even better than you yourself do. And I consider it is far from God to reward good to bad and bad to good after all this is his creations.

Also we can deceive ourselves which is a part of our imagination. In fact it is very easy to tell ourselves we know something because we have seen it. But we do not know of the things we cannot see and so it is not so easy to consider them.

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 12:15 AM
Hi Xel'Naga!

Since these folk are without excuse, I guess that we as Christians have even less excuse. Can you show me how from this verse says, we find the gospel of salvation through Christ alone. That He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. How do we find that He is the narrow gate, and the narrow path.

How do these verses back up your understanding of Romans 1:20

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


God said when we seek him with our whole heart we will find him. How did Abraham know who Jesus was? Or Job? Remember the Ethiopian eunich? He didn't know Jesus so God sent him Phillip to explain Jesus to him. The same with Cornelius.

I know people who didn't know the name of Jesus or that he even died but God gave them a vision. I know of another that simply believed God would provide a way for him to be saved. He and his family were Palestinian. These folks knew they were not good enough to please God. So they simply trusted in Him to provide a way. Eventually, they heard about Jesus and knew this was the way God provided.

If a man won't head the call to go and preach to one who is seeking, God will show up and explain it himself. That's what Romans 1 says. God has made himself evident within them.

calidog
Jun 12th 2008, 12:15 AM
Quite so.

Yet, both yours and daughters statements that being perfect was the requirement to gaining entrance into heaven is false.

If we had to be perfect, none of us would make it.

Funny that I was reprimanded by Project Peter for asking a simple question to daughter about this very subject.I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Since I for one am not perfect, I could be wrong, but Jesus said:


Mat 5:8Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.

No one has seen God at anytime except the Son. We know God dwells in unapproachable light. But Jesus says the pure in heart shall see Him. Heaven is where His throne is.
God says our hearts are desperately wicked, who can know it? Even we don't know our own hearts.

DeadtoSin
Jun 12th 2008, 12:18 AM
God said when we seek him with our whole heart we will find him. How did Abraham know who Jesus was? Or Job? Remember the Ethiopian eunich? He didn't know Jesus so God sent him Phillip to explain Jesus to him. The same with Cornelius.

I know people who didn't know the name of Jesus or that he even died but God gave them a vision. I know of another that simply believed God would provide a way for him to be saved. He and his family were Palestinian. These folks knew they were not good enough to please God. So they simply trusted in Him to provide a way. Eventually, they heard about Jesus and knew this was the way God provided.

If a man won't head the call to go and preach to one who is seeking, God will show up and explain it himself. That's what Romans 1 says. God has made himself evident within them.

I always love hearing about modern day testimonies of people that did not hear the message through a missionary. The most fascinating thing to me are the Muslims that accept Christ through dreams. When I think of someone hearing and accepting the salvation message through something like a dream I never cease to be amazed at God's amazing glory. (Sorry to make my message slightly off topic. :D )

Duane Morse
Jun 12th 2008, 12:19 AM
I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Since I for one am not perfect, I could be wrong, but Jesus said:


Mat 5:8Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.

No one has seen God at anytime except the Son. We know God dwells in unapproachable light. But Jesus says the pure in heart shall see Him. Heaven is where His throne is.

OK, so define 'pure in heart' - especially in the context of being a sinner.

Are you, personally, pure in heart? Absolutely?

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 12:22 AM
11For there is no respect of persons with God.
12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

he is not thinking he can save himself by doing works

he is the law unto himself

but im sure we both dont have the same understanding of this scripture

And yet, those same gentiles often suppress what is in their hearts. You think that muslim will convert to Jesus when he hears about Jesus?

calidog
Jun 12th 2008, 12:22 AM
In my understanding he accepts Jesus Christ.
And Jesus Christ accepts people who are good.


Jesus accepts sinners. He always hung out with sinners but shunned the pharasees. Now, remember He always told the sinners to sin no more when He healed them. He loved the sinners but He still hated the sin.

God accepts Jesus and Jesus accepts those who believe on Him.

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 12:27 AM
I always love hearing about modern day testimonies of people that did not hear the message through a missionary. The most fascinating thing to me are the Muslims that accept Christ through dreams. When I think of someone hearing and accepting the salvation message through something like a dream I never cease to be amazed at God's amazing glory. (Sorry to make my message slightly off topic. :D )

I think it perfectly on target. I had a friend that was a druggie. He didn't know anything about Jesus. He had heard somewhere about the 10 commandments and that was all he knew about God. One day, God showed up and asked him "What will heaven be like". My friend thought about his life and how his friends were out stealing for their drug habit while he was at home. The first thing that came to mind was "Well, there won't be any stealing up there." Then he realized how much he lied and decided that there would be any liars up there. He thought about murder and the suffering it caused and realized there wouldn't be any murderer up there. Eventually, he realized "Wow, I am thinking about the 10 commandments". It scared him because he was guilty of those things. Then he repented and asked God for mercy. He knew he was condemned and was scared of what that might mean. God immediately gave him a vision of a man on a cross. He had never seen anything like it before. But immediately he knew it was God's son and that he died for him. Immediately, he felt better but wasn't sure what had happened. Because it was the 10 commandments that convicted him, he went and got a bible. He began reading through the NT. There he discovered the man on the cross was Jesus. He also learned what happened to him was called being "Born again". His testimony was amazing the first time I heard it.

fewarechosen
Jun 12th 2008, 12:28 AM
the scripture above says nothing about supressing what is in there hearts. it says do by nature the things contained in the law.

now lets say he never gets to hear christs name
a stray airstrike just blew him up.

now i ask is he lost or saved

for here is what scripture says

16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

or do you assume you know the secrets of men and know he is lost like you said earlier

i confess i do not know for i am not the judge

calidog
Jun 12th 2008, 12:31 AM
OK, so define 'pure in heart' - especially in the context of being a sinner.

Are you, personally, pure in heart? Absolutely?Not even. I can't imagine what it would be like to be pure in Heart. But I do know that when we see Him we will be pure in heart, and I know that God accounts us pure in heart because Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father ever making intercession for us.

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 01:14 AM
the scripture above says nothing about supressing what is in there hearts. it says do by nature the things contained in the law.

Sure it does. Romans 1 says it.


now lets say he never gets to hear christs name
a stray airstrike just blew him up.

now i ask is he lost or saved

for here is what scripture says

16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

or do you assume you know the secrets of men and know he is lost like you said earlier

i confess i do not know for i am not the judgeOne doesn't have to hear the name of Christ to be saved. But allah is not the God of Abraham. A muslim is deceived and worshiping an idol. So he would go to hell. If one knows the Father, when Jesus is presented, he will recognize Jesus and believe in Him.

Now, if he sought God with his whole heart, he would be saved. If God sent his Son to die for man, he would move mountains to see that a man that was seeking him would find Him. A man that seeks the one true God will find the one true God.

Zack702
Jun 12th 2008, 01:19 AM
Jesus accepts sinners. He always hung out with sinners but shunned the pharasees. Now, remember He always told the sinners to sin no more when He healed them. He loved the sinners but He still hated the sin.

God accepts Jesus and Jesus accepts those who believe on Him.

Yes he did say sin no more and even said to that one...

Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

So you can clearly see that to know your sin and return to it can be worse than to sin without knowing.
In this is a little truth in reasoning that while he loves everyone (as family) the Father does not tolerate sinners. That is why it is so important for people to know what sin is and to turn from it while they are still alive.

I would like to quote a Old Testament passage here and while I have heard that it is better to use NT I still find it very relevant.

"By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil."

I consider through translation of many things written in the bible it is easy to tell yourself you have no reason to fear the Lord. But not by mercy alone is iniquity purged but by truth also.

calidog
Jun 12th 2008, 01:51 AM
So you can clearly see that to know your sin and return to it can be worse than to sin without knowing.
Yes, but I think they knew they were sinning when they sinned in the first place. I also think they realized Jesus was the Son of God when He healed them. Jesus did not condemn them because of their sin but He told them to sin no more. I think that blew them away when they realized the Son of God loved them and that He did'nt condemn them.

fewarechosen
Jun 12th 2008, 01:57 AM
Sure it does. Romans 1 says it.

One doesn't have to hear the name of Christ to be saved. But allah is not the God of Abraham. A muslim is deceived and worshiping an idol. So he would go to hell. If one knows the Father, when Jesus is presented, he will recognize Jesus and believe in Him.

Now, if he sought God with his whole heart, he would be saved. If God sent his Son to die for man, he would move mountains to see that a man that was seeking him would find Him. A man that seeks the one true God will find the one true God.

after this post i wont bother going into this anymore because the scripture i gave you earlier covers it. i guess we are just in disagreement

now you say allah is an idol i agree
now also anything you covet or want besides god is an idol
if its porn its an idol
if its greed its an idol
if its pride its an idol
on and on ..
they are all idols because your actions are what is worshipping them
and we all do wrong so we all worship idols
and all sins can be fogiven by god (-holy ghost)

so now i can know christ and love him --but if i pridefully boast. i am idle worshipping for i am worshipping my ego and giving in to it.

also remember the lord said to measure not the outside courtyard

what i find most interesting is your ability
to say who is going of hell. i also find it interesting that you say its mans want to find the one true god that will make him find him.

also on a side note remember muslims came from ishmael and ishmael was blessed by god . so some may be blinded but in the end their god is our god also.

just be carefull who you think is going to hell for what

judge not lest ye be judged

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 02:04 AM
after this post i wont bother going into this anymore because the scripture i gave you earlier covers it. i guess we are just in disagreement

now you say allah is an idol i agree
now also anything you covet or want besides god is an idol
if its porn its an idol
if its greed its an idol
if its pride its an idol
on and on ..

True enough. But they are not along the idols of raising up a baal or false God such as allah.


they are all idols because your actions are what is worshipping them
and we all do wrong so we all worship idols
and all sins can be fogiven by god (-holy ghost)

However, idolatry of baal worship or raising up another image is breaking of the greatest command of loving God.


so now i can know christ and love him --but if i pridefully boast. i am idle worshipping for i am worshipping my ego and giving in to it.

Not sure what you are getting at. Paul said he would boast in his weakness and glory in Christ. Preaching Christ is not boasting in ego.


also remember the lord said to measure not the outside courtyard

what i find most interesting is your ability
to say who is going of hell. i also find it interesting that you say its mans want to find the one true god that will make him find him.

My ability is based in scripture. There is no other person by which salvation comes than through Jesus. Romans 1 shows where God says that man suppresses the truth. Islam is an idolatrous religion just as Baal worship is. The adherants go to hell unless they repent.


also on a side note remember muslims came from ishmael and ishmael was blessed by god . so some may be blinded but in the end their god is our god also.

Ishmael is also a type of the flesh in Galatians. In that we are in agreement. Muslims are a religions of the flesh. That is why anger and revenge play a role in many of their beliefs.


just be carefull who you think is going to hell for what

judge not lest ye be judged

I have no issue with that statement! All outside of Christ will be judged outside of Christ. Be careful that you don't avoid telling others the gospel because you think they are OK, for then you will have blood on your hands. Universalism is not taught in scriptures. One must worship the One true God to enter in. It is not through worshiping idols or good works that a man enters in. He goes in through the narrow Gate, Jesus Christ.

calidog
Jun 12th 2008, 02:10 AM
"By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil."

But not by mercy alone is iniquity purged but by truth also.and Who is truth? Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. So, now we know our sins are purged.

fewarechosen
Jun 12th 2008, 02:16 AM
brother mark you posted this

I have no issue with that statement! All outside of Christ will be judged outside of Christ. Be careful that you don't avoid telling others the gospel because you think they are OK, for then you will have blood on your hands. Universalism is not taught in scriptures. One must worship the One true God to enter in. It is not through worshiping idols or good works that a man enters in. He goes in through the narrow Gate, Jesus Christ.[/quote]

glad we could end in total agreement

dont get me wrong im not about universalism at all . there is only god through christ. but knowing who is going to hell is a slippery path. for god alone decides that. he might take a crazy mad bomber who is zealos for a false god and use him to slam into a building just to teach christians a lesson, then he might say to that person because you were willing to sacrifice yourself for a god you thought was me i will spare you.
all things are possible with god --and he does what he wants when he wants --for where there is knowledge it shall fail

calidog
Jun 12th 2008, 02:45 AM
all things are possible with god --and he does what he wants when he wants
I guess that's the bottom line.

Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Zack702
Jun 12th 2008, 02:48 AM
and Who is truth? Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. So, now we know our sins are purged.

This may very well be the interpretation of the truth here in this verse but consider who then the Lord is in this verse?

I will post verse 5 and 6 by Solomon son of David
"Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished. By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil."

If your asking me straight up who I think truth is in this passage I think truth to be literally "conformity to reality or actuality" meaning the same or similar to awareness. Because you might know the truth or you might not but God does so he can make you aware.



So why then should we be afraid if there is nothing to fear?

Deeply consider the truth about your life.

I know for sure myself personally if God lays down everything I ever did and makes me aware of it all... it is a hard trial because he will know my heart and how I feel about every detail. He will see clearly if I am proud right?

fewarechosen
Jun 12th 2008, 02:51 AM
lol cali i typed all this junk and you summed it up beautifully with one quote of scripture :eek:

calidog
Jun 12th 2008, 02:54 AM
you did a great job. It just means you've got the point down pat.

calidog
Jun 12th 2008, 02:56 AM
So why then should we be afraid if there is nothing to fear?


I think we know for the most part what is truth, but when we're not sure we can always ask the One Who is Truth.

davidandme
Jun 12th 2008, 03:16 AM
I think that they will. Because Jesus said: I have sheeps that do not belong to this flock.

FASE
Jun 12th 2008, 02:04 PM
I have read most of you posts. Thanks for replying :) Ok I have another question Do you believe Non-Christians will go to Hell? Also a Jewish person does not believe that Jesus wasn't actually Jesus that he was a prophet but they do believe that Jesus will come and they believe in God and if God is Jesus then if they believe in God do they technically speaking do they not believe in Jesus?

What do you think?

fewarechosen
Jun 12th 2008, 02:29 PM
I have read most of you posts. Thanks for replying :) Ok I have another question Do you believe Non-Christians will go to Hell? Also a Jewish person does not believe that Jesus wasn't actually Jesus that he was a prophet but they do believe that Jesus will come and they believe in God and if God is Jesus then if they believe in God do they technically speaking do they not believe in Jesus?

What do you think?

well for the first part of the question we must be carefull, for a couple of reasons.
the first being- god defines who a "christian" is not us.
also when thinking about "who" is going to hell --remember thats not up to us to decide, god is the judge not us. just remember anyone who does not worship god the father through christ --is guilty of idol worship and the following of false gods ---but again remember god will judge them not us.
so if someone asks will this jew go to hell, or this hindu, or this pedophile, or this murderer, or this christian-- the correct answer is we are all worthy of hell and god saves who he will.
we also know that we are held accountable for every word from out mouth, and every action is known of god, when he judges us he will use that information how he sees fit.

now as for your second part

no man knoweth the father unless he know the son,
the son and the father are one -- to not acknowledge christ as the son of god is to not acknowledge god.
in essence it is calling christ a liar--and since he and is father are one --it is calling god a liar.

and those who call god a liar shall have thier reward

i hope that helps with your questions

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 02:38 PM
dont get me wrong im not about universalism at all . there is only god through christ. but knowing who is going to hell is a slippery path. for god alone decides that. he might take a crazy mad bomber who is zealos for a false god and use him to slam into a building just to teach christians a lesson, then he might say to that person because you were willing to sacrifice yourself for a god you thought was me i will spare you.
all things are possible with god --and he does what he wants when he wants --for where there is knowledge it shall fail


He tells us who goes to hell and on what basis... Those that don't believe in Jesus go to hell.

Oh no, he won't spare that person at all! Here is what scripture says about people like that.

Rom 10:1-4

10 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
NASB

One can have a zeal for God, the REAL God, and it be without knowledge and they will die and go to hell. Zeal doesn't save someone even if they worship the God of the OT. It won't save the Muslim who worship a false God either.

Being zealous without knowledge will send you straight to hell. The comfort we have is if one is sincere in seeking God, God will allow himself to be found. But when one trust in his zeal, he will end up in hell.

theleast
Jun 12th 2008, 02:40 PM
He tells us who goes to hell and on what basis... Those that don't believe in Jesus go to hell.

Oh no, he won't spare that person at all! Here is what scripture says about people like that.

Rom 10:1-4

10 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
NASB

One can have a zeal for God, the REAL God, and it be without knowledge and they will die and go to hell. Zeal doesn't save someone even if they worship the God of the OT. It won't save the Muslim who worship a false God either.

Being zealous without knowledge will send you straight to hell. The comfort we have is if one is sincere in seeking God, God will allow himself to be found. But when one trust in his zeal, he will end up in hell.

Do you not know that God seeketh such to worship him in spirit?

Do you not know that Jesus wrote his new covenent in the heart and minds of men and not in the law of men?

Do you not know that judgement belongs to the Lord and to whom he gives it and not to those that walk upon the earth?

Don't be so quick to hand out death and judgement. For even Christ asked forgiveness for those who crucified him, and they knew him not.

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 02:41 PM
well for the first part of the question we must be carefull, for a couple of reasons.
the first being- god defines who a "christian" is not us.
also when thinking about "who" is going to hell --remember thats not up to us to decide, god is the judge not us. just remember anyone who does not worship god the father through christ --is guilty of idol worship and the following of false gods ---but again remember god will judge them not us.

He's already judged them and we know from scripture what he thinks.

John 3:18
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NASB

If they don't believe in Jesus, they are condemned. God has already judged them.


so if someone asks will this jew go to hell, or this hindu, or this pedophile, or this murderer, or this christian-- the correct answer is we are all worthy of hell and god saves who he will.

The correct answer is "Yes. Unless they repent unto Christ."


we also know that we are held accountable for every word from out mouth, and every action is known of god, when he judges us he will use that information how he sees fit.

True enough.


now as for your second part

no man knoweth the father unless he know the son,
the son and the father are one -- to not acknowledge christ as the son of god is to not acknowledge god.
in essence it is calling christ a liar--and since he and is father are one --it is calling god a liar.

and those who call god a liar shall have thier reward

i hope that helps with your questions

Correct. No man can know God unless he knows the Son. That's why those that don't know Jesus go to hell.

theleast
Jun 12th 2008, 02:45 PM
No man can know God unless he knows the Son. That's why those that don't know Jesus go to hell.

So how do you know the Son?

In Spirit. Not laws of men.

Edited.

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 02:48 PM
So how do you know the Son?

In Spirit. Not law.

Given plenty of examples of that in this thread and others. You don't have to know his name but you better know him. I know people that came to Jesus but didn't know anything about him till they read the scriptures. The muslim that dies for allah goes to hell. The hindu that worships many gods and dies, goes to hell. The Jew that seeks to save himself through his own works dies and goes to hell.

But those that seek God, God will allow himself to be found. He will introduce them to Jesus and they will be saved.

theleast
Jun 12th 2008, 02:52 PM
Given plenty of examples of that in this thread and others. You don't have to know his name but you better know him. I know people that came to Jesus but didn't know anything about him till they read the scriptures. The muslim that dies for allah goes to hell. The hindu that worships many gods and dies, goes to hell. The Jew that seeks to save himself through his own works dies and goes to hell.

But those that seek God, God will allow himself to be found. He will introduce them to Jesus and they will be saved.

So the man stranded on an island with no bible sees a shipwreck. He takes the nearly drowned and ministers unto him until he is well. He loves him no differently than Christ loved those he ministered to.

The man whom he saves also doesn't know Jesus, so the man stranded on the island never hears Jesus name. You are ready to condemn that man to hell?

I say Jesus wrote his new covenent in the heart of that man, and if it be God's will he would be saved.

FASE
Jun 12th 2008, 02:52 PM
Can you please tell me where in the Bible it says that one who dies on earth not knowing Jesus goes to Hell.

Thanks

grit
Jun 12th 2008, 02:53 PM
I have read most of you posts. Thanks for replying :) Ok I have another question Do you believe Non-Christians will go to Hell? Also a Jewish person does not believe that Jesus wasn't actually Jesus that he was a prophet but they do believe that Jesus will come and they believe in God and if God is Jesus then if they believe in God do they technically speaking do they not believe in Jesus?

What do you think?
Those are good questions and ones which are somewhat difficult for us in terms of passing judgment on others as if we were God. The clear teaching of Christian Scripture is that anyone who is not righteous but an ungodly evildoer, who does not abide in Jesus, and whose name is not written in the book of life will face eternal fire (Matthew 3:9-12; 8:11-12; 13:49-50; 25:40-46; Luke 13:22-28; John 15:6; 2 Peter 3:7; Revelation 14:9-11; Rev. 20:11-15).

The question for us is just who these people are? Jesus makes clear that some of the hell-bound people are indeed children of Abraham who have rejected him – Jewish people who do not abide in Jesus in the way that Jesus has taught that we ought to abide in him. Only God the Son, Jesus the Christ, is worthy of making this determination, but he gives us clear guides in Scripture as to what he requires for having one’s name written in the book of life, and anyone who rejects that Jesus came in the flesh and sacrificed his life in payment for our sin, who rejects the Son of the Father as our Saviour, will not be allowed to come to the Father as clean and worthy of Heaven, but will rather be cast out into darkness and eternal fire.

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 02:54 PM
So the man stranded on an island with no bible sees a shipwreck. He takes the nearly drowned and ministers unto him until he is well. He loves him no differently than Christ loved those he ministered to.

The man whom he saves also doesn't know Jesus, so the man stranded on the island never hears Jesus name. You are ready to condemn that man to hell?

I say Jesus wrote his new covenent in the heart of that man, and if it be God's will he would be saved.

How did Abraham know Jesus? Or Paul? Or Jacob? I know people that had never heard the name of Christ that got saved through a vision. If a man wants to know God, God will witness to him if no man will or can't. Many people get saved without a bible.

theleast
Jun 12th 2008, 02:55 PM
Can you please tell me where in the Bible it says that one who dies on earth not knowing Jesus goes to Hell.

Thanks

It says that Jesus is the way into heaven. He is the way the light and the life. Through him is the gateway to everlasting life. What gets lost I think is that people don't realize that Jesus wrote his new testament in our hearts and minds and not a book.

Hebrews 10:16 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Hebrews+10:16&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Hebrews+10&version=9)
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

theleast
Jun 12th 2008, 02:57 PM
How did Abraham know Jesus? Or Paul? Or Jacob? I know people that had never heard the name of Christ that got saved through a vision. If a man wants to know God, God will witness to him if no man will or can't. Many people get saved without a bible.

Then why are you pointing fingers and lumping groups together and condemning them?

Do you not know that of the Jews a remnant will be saved? Do you think it impossible for a Muslim to find Christ? Do you not know that the pagan Gentiles were grafted in and so they too may find salvation?

fewarechosen
Jun 12th 2008, 02:59 PM
brother mark ,

now remember no where did i say zeal gets you into heaven---i used that as one possible example of what god might decide.

now you qoute this scripture.

10 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
NASB

notice it says nothing about them going to hell. it just shows that they try to establish thier own rightousness.
much like someone who thinks they have the ability to know individually who is going to hell or not --- that in so doing they lose sight of gods rightousness--which is he does what he wants when he wants

so in a way somone could say of you --you have a zeal for god but you have not subject yourself to the rightsousness of god --because you assume to know his judgments.

because he clearly warns --judge not lest ye be judged
and you choose to judge.

it seems you want the ability to point and say --this person is going to hell and that person is going to hell and so on.

what you are forgetting is we are all going to hell yet god will choose to save some of us in his mercy.

now dont mistake that i am debating this with you to convert you to my way of thinking --i wish you would think like me on this matter -but of course i do not expect it.

i write this so some who are reading can see if there is wisdom in my words -- the holy spirit will discern for them if i speak amiss

steph22nlly
Jun 12th 2008, 03:08 PM
I don't think you'll get an arguement here. Even Jesus said ALL sins are forgiven except one.


Calidog..imform me of this one sin that isn't forgiven..please :pray:

theleast
Jun 12th 2008, 03:10 PM
Calidog..imform me of this one sin that isn't forgiven..please :pray:

It is blashphemy against the Holy Spirit. That sin is not fogiven, and puts you in danger of hell.

FASE
Jun 12th 2008, 03:13 PM
Can you please tell me where in the Bible it says that one who dies on earth not knowing Jesus goes to Hell.

Thanks
But does it say that if you die on EARTH with out excepting Christ in you life that you will go to hell. Or does it say that IF you don't except Christ into you life you will go to hell?

fewarechosen
Jun 12th 2008, 03:19 PM
But does it say that if you die on EARTH with out excepting Christ in you life that you will go to hell. Or does it say that IF you don't except Christ into you life you will go to hell?

wise question fase

im curious as to if you see my point in this.

i dont want to sound as if i condone someone believing in false gods. that is far from the truth

im just trying to get the point across that we are not the judge of those things god is

christ said this

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

so if christ himself did not judge who is going to hell,
by what authority do we think we do ?

FASE
Jun 12th 2008, 03:25 PM
I believe I get what you are saying.

John146
Jun 12th 2008, 03:32 PM
Hey :)

Let me ask you, do you know any people who call themselves 'Christians,' but only b/c their 'american' or 'from a Christian family' or b/c they 'attend church' (etc)?

Sure. I think we all probably do.



Do you know any 'Christians' who are almost completely ignorant of what Christianity is all about?

Not that I can think of offhand. I can think of several who think they are Christians who are partly ignorant of what it really means to be a Christian, but "almost completely ignorant"? Not really. I think these kinds of people know that one is expected to believe in Jesus to be saved and to believe that He died and rose again. But I think they are often ignorant of the need to truly confess and repent of their sins and surrender their lives to the Lord.



If so, isn't it possible that there are some people born into Muslim families that are only given mis-information about Christ and yet are truly seeking the 1 true God, truly responding positively to their consciences, and truly would respond positively to Christ if they were given the real facts about Him? I am not prepared to say that is impossible. And I'm not prepared to say Jesus' love and justice couldn't save such a person.

Here's what I believe about that. I would equate someone like that to Cornelius, who we can read about in Acts 10. If someone is truly seeking like that, I believe God will ensure that they have an opportunity to hear the gospel and respond to it before they die.


Now, if you're talking about someone who is not ignorant of the truth, but rejecting of the truth, then I completely agree with you.

Just a thought,
matthew

Yes, that's the kind of people I was speaking about specifically.

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 03:47 PM
wise question fase

im curious as to if you see my point in this.

i dont want to sound as if i condone someone believing in false gods. that is far from the truth

im just trying to get the point across that we are not the judge of those things god is

christ said this

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

so if christ himself did not judge who is going to hell,
by what authority do we think we do ?

Just to balance that out...

John 9:39-41
39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see; and that those who see may become blind." 40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things, and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?" 41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.
NASB

Jesus came to save. His purpose wasn't to judge. However, that does not mean he didn't judge while he was here.

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 03:50 PM
Do you not know that God seeketh such to worship him in spirit?

Yea. Let's examine the Spirit of the Law.

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me." If we are to worship God in spirit and in truth, we have to worship the One True God.


Do you not know that Jesus wrote his new covenent in the heart and minds of men and not in the law of men?

OK. Another law "Thou shalt not murder". My post was in response to a murderer that flew his plane into a building and killed people. Obviously, God hadn't written the murder part into this man's heart.


Do you not know that judgement belongs to the Lord and to whom he gives it and not to those that walk upon the earth?

Correct. But we know his judgment and what he says.


Don't be so quick to hand out death and judgement. For even Christ asked forgiveness for those who crucified him, and they knew him not.

Yes he did. God is very patient and kind and merciful. But when one dies without Christ, he dies without hope.

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 03:51 PM
Then why are you pointing fingers and lumping groups together and condemning them?

Do you not know that of the Jews a remnant will be saved? Do you think it impossible for a Muslim to find Christ? Do you not know that the pagan Gentiles were grafted in and so they too may find salvation?

The question isn't if they can get saved. It's if they die a muslim are they saved. The answer is no. If one dies while worshiping baal, he goes to hell. The pagan Gentiles were grafted in when they believed. That's the point. When on gets saved by faith, he is grafted in, not before.

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 03:57 PM
brother mark ,

now remember no where did i say zeal gets you into heaven---i used that as one possible example of what god might decide.

now you qoute this scripture.

10 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
NASB

notice it says nothing about them going to hell. it just shows that they try to establish thier own rightousness.

And what did Jesus say about that? That if their righteousness didn't exceed the righteousness of the pharisees, they would not get in. And if they weren't heading to hell, Paul was wasting his time praying for their salvation. there is no need to save the saved.


much like someone who thinks they have the ability to know individually who is going to hell or not --- that in so doing they lose sight of gods rightousness--which is he does what he wants when he wants

so in a way somone could say of you --you have a zeal for god but you have not subject yourself to the rightsousness of god --because you assume to know his judgments.

He has pronounced his judgments concerning heaven and hell. Only by faith in Christ do we get into heaven. There is no other way. The way is narrow that leads to salvation and the way to destruction is broad.


because he clearly warns --judge not lest ye be judged
and you choose to judge.

Yes indeed! I judge the way of salvation because we are told it plainly. Can i know what's in a man's heart? Only from his words. For from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. If he does not trust Jesus Christ as his savior, he will die in his sins and go to hell. If his faith is in Budda, or allah, or some hindu god he will not get in. Scripture tells us that and I have no problem being judged by that standard.


it seems you want the ability to point and say --this person is going to hell and that person is going to hell and so on.[quote]

You asked me if a muslim that flew into a building in the name of allah was going to hell. The answer is easy. Yes he is!

[quote]what you are forgetting is we are all going to hell yet god will choose to save some of us in his mercy.

Correct. Those that have faith in Christ. He has mercy on them. Not on others.


now dont mistake that i am debating this with you to convert you to my way of thinking --i wish you would think like me on this matter -but of course i do not expect it.

i write this so some who are reading can see if there is wisdom in my words -- the holy spirit will discern for them if i speak amiss

So are you proposing one can get to heaven through worship of allah or budda? It sure sounds like it.

fewarechosen
Jun 12th 2008, 03:58 PM
Just to balance that out...

John 9:39-41
39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see; and that those who see may become blind." 40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things, and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?" 41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.
NASB

Jesus came to save. His purpose wasn't to judge. However, that does not mean he didn't judge while he was here.


39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? 41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.


now we have to understand this scripture
he came ---for judgment --- not for judging

he is the standard to which all will be judged
he came for judgement because he is the measuring stick---perfect

what he is saying is that if he did not sacrifice himself they would be blind to sin--as in never having someone show them how to overcome it.
but because he overcame it they have no cloak for their sin.
and because of that they have no cloak to claim ignorance when gods judgment comes

christ judged everything --knowing perfect right and wrong --- but he did not judge the outcome of people

you never see christ point a finger at someone and say

you are going to hell because you dont believe

but he judged thier actions and told them where they are lacking

threebigrocks
Jun 12th 2008, 04:04 PM
But does it say that if you die on EARTH with out excepting Christ in you life that you will go to hell. Or does it say that IF you don't except Christ into you life you will go to hell?

It is appointed to man to die once. That would be in the flesh, we are all going to die someday. That is the first death and it's unavoidable.

The second death is being cast into hell. No if's there as Mark stated above, if you don't believe before you die you do not go to heaven.

We only have until the first death to accept Christ as Lord and Savior, while we are in this flesh and on this earth.


"It" (scripture) says:
(Bold mine)

Hebrews 9


27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvationwithout reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.


Revelation 2



10'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'


Revelation 21


7"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

fewarechosen
Jun 12th 2008, 04:15 PM
i posted this--

"because he clearly warns --judge not lest ye be judged
and you choose to judge."

then you respond

"Yes indeed!"

now christ says

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

so now with my lord always as an example -- i will judge no man

but it seems you have an ability my lord did not --you can judge who is going to heaven and who to hell

but by no means do i take away your ability to do so,
you will have your reward

and if you believe not christs own words --i will never convince you

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 04:19 PM
39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? 41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.


now we have to understand this scripture
he came ---for judgment --- not for judging

And yet, look at the rest of the verse. He makes some see and makes some blind. He does that. He causes the blindness. That's why he spoke in parables. That is a judgment that he makes. He did judge.


he is the standard to which all will be judged
he came for judgement because he is the measuring stick---perfect

That's why we need mercy. We find it in him. Outside of the Ark (Jesus) only wrath awaits. Those in allah find wrath. Those in hinduism get wrath. Those in atheism, get wrath. But those in Christ (the ark), the wrath falls on Jesus and we are saved.


what he is saying is that if he did not sacrifice himself they would be blind to sin--as in never having someone show them how to overcome it.
but because he overcame it they have no cloak for their sin.
and because of that they have no cloak to claim ignorance when gods judgment comes

christ judged everything --knowing perfect right and wrong --- but he did not judge the outcome of people

you never see christ point a finger at someone and say

you are going to hell because you dont believe

but he judged thier actions and told them where they are lacking

Oh yes he did. Here's some scripture.

Matt 11:20-24

20 Then He began to reproach the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. 21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 "Nevertheless I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you. 23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You shall descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24 "Nevertheless I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you."
NASB

There are numerous scriptures where Jesus said people were going to hell. Here's another.

Matt 23:15

15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel about on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
NASB

I could quote more but there is only so much allowed in a post.

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 04:22 PM
i posted this--

"because he clearly warns --judge not lest ye be judged
and you choose to judge."

then you respond

"Yes indeed!"

now christ says

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

so now with my lord always as an example -- i will judge no man

but it seems you have an ability my lord did not --you can judge who is going to heaven and who to hell

but by no means do i take away your ability to do so,
you will have your reward

and if you believe not christs own words --i will never convince you

Look above at the post where the words of Christ said someone was going to hell. And let's be fair about that verse you quote. Here's the rest of the scripture behind it.


John 12:47-48
47 "And if anyone hears My sayings, and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
NASB

The word of God will judge that man. What does the word say? He who doesn't believe in Christ will in now wise come to the Father. That's what judges who will go to heaven and who won't. Jesus word will judge many.

calidog
Jun 12th 2008, 04:36 PM
Calidog..imform me of this one sin that isn't forgiven..please :pray:
oops, someone answered it?:)

fewarechosen
Jun 12th 2008, 04:49 PM
brother mark do you belong to some sort of denomination ?

DeadtoSin
Jun 12th 2008, 04:55 PM
Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' - Luke 13:22-27



This story that Jesus told is probably one of the most amazing things I've read in the Bible. It offers a pretty comprehensive idea of what salvation is, and who is saved.

Jesus makes it clear there there is a narrow door. People who thought that they were genuinely good people, who thought that they were serving God, or anything else in that vein do not go to Heaven without Christ. Having a relationship with Christ, whether you were directly told by another person, through a dream, or through any other way is the only way that anyone may be saved.

davidandme
Jun 12th 2008, 04:55 PM
a person is only accountable for the light that he has received. So even a person that didn't worship God can make it to heaven. God knows the heart. God bless.

theleast
Jun 12th 2008, 05:02 PM
Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' - Luke 13:22-27



This story that Jesus told is probably one of the most amazing things I've read in the Bible. It offers a pretty comprehensive idea of what salvation is, and who is saved.

Jesus makes it clear there there is a narrow door. People who thought that they were genuinely good people, who thought that they were serving God, or anything else in that vein do not go to Heaven without Christ. Having a relationship with Christ, whether you were directly told by another person, through a dream, or through any other way is the only way that anyone may be saved.

Good for you. Many are called but few are chosen.

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 05:39 PM
a person is only accountable for the light that he has received. So even a person that didn't worship God can make it to heaven. God knows the heart. God bless.

The first part is true. The second part is not.


Rom 1:18-19

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
NASB

God has made it evident to people that he exist. He placed eternity in their hearts.

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 05:40 PM
brother mark do you belong to some sort of denomination ?

I am non-denominational. ;) It won't be the church that saves people. It Christ and he saves those that trust Him and only Him.

grit
Jun 12th 2008, 06:13 PM
But does it say that if you die on EARTH without excepting Christ in your life that you will go to hell. Or does it say that IF you don't except Christ into you life you will go to hell?
Hi FASE. I'm not sure we answered your question from a couple of pages back. I think threebigrocks did an excellent job of detailing what most of us Christians believe and what I personally believe regarding this passage of Scripture:
"Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." (Hebrews 9:26-28, NASB)

Most of us, and especially the Protestant Christians who cheifly comprise this board, would say the Christian Scriptures indicate that there is no intervening opportunity of changing one's mind toward accepting Christ into one's life after one dies here on Earth - that after death one is finally judged on one's life while here on Earth. There are other Scriptures too which support that we will be judged by God based upon our life here, and not upon what happens in our spirit after we depart from our Earthly existence. However, not all Christians agree on this point, and there is some room for Scriptural differences depending on one's view of the details of our faith and how it exactly relates to our being saved by God.

For example, some Roman Catholics and other Christians assert that all suicides are in danger of hell, and that there may be a purification or temporary punishment state between death and the final judgment where the spiritual state of one's soul can be improved upon, especially by the prayers of other Christians. This is usually termed purgatory or apocatastasis. Particularly in Roman Catholicism this belief is tied into considerations of different types or degrees of sin (mortal and venial) and in their view of God's grace attached to the rites of baptism and penance. Sometimes one's view of the Scriptural presentation of fire as either destructive or cleansing also comes to bear.

I don't want to go into any detailed discussion of doctrines unfavourable to the board*, even though various beliefs of our after-life are to found among Protestants as well as Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and other Christian groups. But suffice it to say that you have brought up a somewhat cloudy issue. The truth of the matter is that one must be under the redemption of Jesus in order to be spared the judgment of hell. The Scriptures do not indicate any opportunity whatsoever for a person to change his mind after he dies and so accept Christ when he meets Christ. In fact, on the contrary, Jesus himself presented a story (the Rich Man and Lazarus - Luke 16) where someone dead and in torment wanted relief for himself and wanted his unsaved family still living on Earth to be told the truth of what he now knew, but to no avail. Even those Christians (and some Mormons and Jews, by the way) who believe in some manner of "second chance" after death, cheifly resign it to a matter of the prayers of others for this dead person, not that one can suddenly see the truth and have Christ enter into their heart after they've died.


*NOTE: Board Rules: IV. Specific Rules

"Unorthodox teachings or discussing specific doctrines of ANY of these religions will be moved to
the "World Religions" Forum:
Teachings of ANY of these religions and discussion of specific doctrines may be discussed only in the World Religions forum
in the interest of seeking factual representation and refuting any doctrinal differences from mainstream Protestantism..."

fewarechosen
Jun 12th 2008, 06:35 PM
just remember folks the pharisees thought they worshipped god and they thought they knew who was worthy of hell fire. but they missed it all along.

so now some say well there are no second chances after death. to which i totally agree.

the only difference i have with most in this thread.

is they will boldly claim who they completely know and understand is going to hell

while i will do no such thing -- it stinks of pride to me

there is one way to heaven and that is through christ.
no buddah no allah no false doctrine and no pride will change that



remember with god all things are possible
and he is the judge not us

let the evil go on being evil and let the just go on being just

and brother mark im glad your not of a denomination -they divide the one body. christ never mentioned any denominations

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 06:41 PM
just remember folks the pharisees thought they worshipped god and they thought they knew who was worthy of hell fire. but they missed it all along.

Correct. The same can be said of those that worship allah. However, Jesus told us who was and who was not worthy of hell. Without repentance from sin towards Christ, we are all doomed!


so now some say well there are no second chances after death. to which i totally agree.

Agreed.



the only difference i have with most in this thread.

is they will boldly claim who they completely know and understand is going to hell

while i will do no such thing -- it stinks of pride to me

there is one way to heaven and that is through christ.
no buddah no allah no false doctrine and no pride will change that

Yet, you insinuate that a buddist or islamist can get to heaven. Just as the Pharisees in their zeal were told by Christ they were going to hell, so can we know the Islamist in his zeal will go there, and the budist in his zeal will go.

Now, if someone says "I profess Christ" and has difficulties in his life, I cannot judge if he does or if he does not. But when one denies Christ before men, as the Islamist does, then I can say with a certainty that Christ will deny him before God for that is what Jesus said he would do.

Matt 10:33
33 "But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
NASB

The Muslim believes Jesus is just a prophet and they deny his Godhood.



remember with god all things are possible
and he is the judge not us

All things are possible with God! Yet, he will only save one way, through Jesus. And he doesn't lie. If he said he will deny those that deny Christ, we can bank on that.


let the evil go on being evil and let the just go on being just

Amen.

jewel4Christ
Jun 12th 2008, 10:37 PM
just remember folks the pharisees thought they worshipped god and they thought they knew who was worthy of hell fire. but they missed it all along.

so now some say well there are no second chances after death. to which i totally agree.

the only difference i have with most in this thread.

is they will boldly claim who they completely know and understand is going to hell

while i will do no such thing -- it stinks of pride to me

there is one way to heaven and that is through christ.
no buddah no allah no false doctrine and no pride will change that



remember with god all things are possible
and he is the judge not us

let the evil go on being evil and let the just go on being just

and brother mark im glad your not of a denomination -they divide the one body. christ never mentioned any denominations


I have to agree with this..besides, judgement is now ONLY on the house of God, in the "spiritual sense", the verses that speak of judgement on the world now, are talking about PHYSICAL judgement, for whatsoever a man sow, that also shall he/she reap...

God will judge the world in His own time....too many today, seem to think they have been given that right...I say, you better think again.....:hmm:


Christ is the only way to salvation, but I would NOT try to claim He is done with anyone yet.

Let Him have the last word, it really is that simple.

peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 10:40 PM
I have to agree with this..besides, judgement is now ONLY on the house of God, in the "spiritual sense", the verses that speak of judgement on the world now, are talking about PHYSICAL judgement, for whatsoever a man sow, that also shall he/she reap...

God will judge the world in His own time....too many today, seem to think they have been given that right...I say, you better think again.....:hmm:


Christ is the only way to salvation, but I would NOT try to claim He is done with anyone yet.

Let Him have the last word, it really is that simple.

peaceandlove,

janet

It was suggested earlier that if a muslim died flying a plane into a building thinking he was doing God a favor, that we could not know if he was in heaven or hell. However, we know that if a man rejects Jesus as God and die in that state, they go to hell. Muslims reject Jesus as being God. If a muslim is performing terrorist acts in the name of his god while rejecting Christ as God, he will go to hell. Of course, for the living, we know they can be saved at any time unless they are reprobate.

jewel4Christ
Jun 12th 2008, 10:41 PM
Matt 10:33
33 "But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
NASB

The Muslim believes Jesus is just a prophet and they deny his Godhood.

You must of heard of Him, and knew whom He was, before you can deny Him.

This is the unpardonable sin, but you are forgetting that many have never heard of Him in a right way...and, God only reaps where HE sows.

It was the unfaithful servant that THOUGHT through pride that He reaped where He had not sown.

Give God the time to do HIS OWN BIDDING.....that's all.



At least then, we will all know that He made the right choice.

Thanks.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 12th 2008, 10:45 PM
It was suggested earlier that if a muslim died flying a plane into a building thinking he was doing God a favor, that we could not know if he was in heaven or hell. However, we know that if a man rejects Jesus as God and die in that state, they go to hell. Muslims reject Jesus as being God. If a muslim is performing terrorist acts in the name of his god while rejecting Christ as God, he will go to hell. Of course, for the living, we know they can be saved at any time unless they are reprobate.

That is not how I read the poster in question.

I think that what he was trying to portray is that none of us can know all the details, and all that God takes into account before He makes HIS RIGHTEOUSS judgement, and it is pride in man that makes him/her think they have that ability.

WE simply don't...sometimes God raises up men for His own purposes, or have you forgotten?

End of story.


peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 10:46 PM
You must of heard of Him, and knew whom He was, before you can deny Him.

This is the unpardonable sin, but you are forgetting that many have never heard of Him in a right way...and, God only reaps where HE sows.

It was the unfaithful servant that THOUGHT through pride that He reaped where He had not sown.

Give God the time to do HIS OWN BIDDING.....that's all.

At least then, we will all know that He made the right choice.

Thanks.

peaceandlove,

janet

Many Muslims have heard of Jesus and know we see him as God. God speaks to this issue of hearing about him.

Rom 1:18-20

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
NASB

If a man dies in unbelief, he goes to hell. As long as he is alive and not a reprobate, there is hope for his soul.

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 10:47 PM
That is not how I read the poster in question.

I think that what he was trying to portray is that none of us can know all the details, and all that God takes into account before He makes HIS RIGHTEOUSS judgement, and it is pride in man that makes him/her think they have that ability.

WE simply don't...sometimes God raises up men for His own purposes, or have you forgotten?

End of story.


peaceandlove,

janet

Scripture is plain. Those that die in unbelief go to hell. That's why it is so important to preach Christ. The word of God is the judge and what he says is very important. The muslim that dies serving allah while murdering innocents will die and go to hell. I've already quoted many scriptures on that point. Zeal does not save a man. Faith in Christ does.

jewel4Christ
Jun 12th 2008, 10:56 PM
Many Muslims have heard of Jesus and know we see him as God. God speaks to this issue of hearing about him.

Rom 1:18-20

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
NASB

If a man dies in unbelief, he goes to hell. As long as he is alive and not a reprobate, there is hope for his soul.

This verse is speaking about someone whom has known the way of the Lord, and turned from it, though...IN CONTEXT.

They are without excuse, when they have tasted of the Lord and KNOWN that He is good, and then turn from it...that is the unpardonable sin.

I do not read it that it is speaking of ALL MANKIND, whom have never had the grace of God exposed to them.

For example, in old covenant times, "faith and grace" was not even exposed to mankind as a whole, otherwise, the word of God would not state that it is now only exposed by the holy new covenant...and, many died without this knowledge.

Just as many die today without the truth of Jesus, mostly because the church has lost it's light in proclaiming it, because they have turned to another gospel, in many cases.....

I have said all I want to say in this thread. I stand on the thought that I will not judge any man....where salvation is concerned.

I believe God is greater and more merciful than most teach.

He does NOT reap where He has not sown.

That too is written, so, if you want to believe He does, then, I suppose we would be in disagreement.

It is simple...One MUST have a knowledge of the gospel before one can reject it...and, quite frankly, I am not going to sit in the judgment seat of Christ.

You want to, go ahead........:D

I won't be back to this thread...it is leading no where.

peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 12th 2008, 11:06 PM
This verse is speaking about someone whom has known the way of the Lord, and turned from it, though...IN CONTEXT.

They are without excuse, when they have tasted of the Lord and KNOWN that He is good, and then turn from it...that is the unpardonable sin.

No. That's hebrews 6 not romans 1.


I do not read it that it is speaking of ALL MANKIND, whom have never had the grace of God exposed to them.

For example, in old covenant times, "faith and grace" was not even exposed to mankind as a whole, otherwise, the word of God would not state that it is now only exposed by the holy new covenant...and, many died without this knowledge.

Sure it was. But not in the way we have it today. God was justified in the flood. They had Enoch and Noah and Methuselah to preach to them and still they didn't repent.


Just as many die today without the truth of Jesus, mostly because the church has lost it's light in proclaiming it, because they have turned to another gospel, in many cases.....

I have said all I want to say in this thread. I stand on the thought that I will not judge any man....where salvation is concerned.

No one can judge any man's heart. But if he doesn't trust in Jesus, we know where he's going.


I believe God is greater and more merciful than most teach.

He does NOT reap where He has not sown.

He is very merciful.


That too is written, so, if you want to believe He does, then, I suppose we would be in disagreement.

He has put eternity in the heart of man. Those that seek him, he allows them to find him.


It is simple...One MUST have a knowledge of the gospel before one can reject it...and, quite frankly, I am not going to sit in the judgment seat of Christ.

None of us are. But we have his word and his word will judge. He already told us what is necessary for salvation. God preaches to all man kind by placing eternity in their heart. Romans 1 makes clear that even nature preaches about God.


You want to, go ahead........:D

I won't be back to this thread...it is leading no where.

peaceandlove,

janet

OK by me. ;)

Zack702
Jun 12th 2008, 11:30 PM
People who thought that they were genuinely good people, who thought that they were serving God, or anything else in that vein do not go to Heaven without Christ. Having a relationship with Christ, whether you were directly told by another person, through a dream, or through any other way is the only way that anyone may be saved.


Consider this line of that verse you posted.
"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets."
Does this not show that these people had a face to face relationship with Jesus ? But he closed the door and said away evildoers.

fewarechosen
Jun 12th 2008, 11:42 PM
Consider this line of that verse you posted.
"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets."
Does this not show that these people had a face to face relationship with Jesus ? But he closed the door and said away evildoers.

zack great scripture, sadly some wont get it.
but i think you do. he turns away people because their minds and lips worshipped him but their hearts are far from him -- he doesnt like the proud, he doesnt like those who are sure of who will go to hell.

watch what my lord will do with this one scripture.

where there is knowledge it shall fail

he will take something that is known and true and make it fail

you know why?

just to mess with the proud who think they have an understanding

he likes the meek, he likes to raise thier heads up and wash away tears, he likes the ones who take the low seats in the temple

Zack702
Jun 13th 2008, 12:06 AM
Yea he does not like someone who is proud of there sin. And we know what sin is most of us know what sin is without scripture.

" you know why? just to mess with the proud who think they have an understanding "

Well I wouldn't word it quite like this but I see your point.
I consider that it is possible he overturns things for our own good on many levels. So in a way it is for us and not him that it is done. In a way that is the whole concept of the bible.

C0841
Jun 13th 2008, 12:17 AM
Fase

Sorry, but this is New Age.

This is the ONLY way to get into Heaven:

Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. (Rom 10:9)


AMEN...
Matthew 7: 21-23:

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

jewel4Christ
Jun 13th 2008, 02:14 AM
AMEN...
Matthew 7: 21-23:

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

OK, you drew me back in...LOL.....:D

I just wanted to point out that NO ONE has even insinuated, that one can be saved without coming TO Christ...what we are saying, however is that MAYBE Jesus will show them that way, BEYOND our own judgements...even in the age to come.

I have to be politically correct, lol......so, get used to me...(not through the politics of this world, but by the word of God.)


Ya'll have a good night.....I just want to leave this to the Lord, do decide.


peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 13th 2008, 01:29 PM
zack great scripture, sadly some wont get it.
but i think you do. he turns away people because their minds and lips worshipped him but their hearts are far from him -- he doesnt like the proud, he doesnt like those who are sure of who will go to hell.

watch what my lord will do with this one scripture.

where there is knowledge it shall fail

he will take something that is known and true and make it fail

you know why?

It is impossible for God to lie. He does not make truth become untruth. Knowledge fails in the sense that knowledge cannot save. Just knowing something won't get one into heaven.

Here's the scripture reference so folks can see exactly what it is saying.

1 Cor 13:8
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
NASB

The gift of knowledge will be done away with. However, that doesn't mean we won't know. For Paul goes on to say that we will know even as we are known.

1 Cor 13:9-13
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
NASB

What is true will continue to be true no matter how badly folks want it to be different. Outside of Christ, all will go to hell.

It is not proud to say Jesus is the only way. It is a humble acceptance of what God says. God does not lie for it is impossible for him to do so.

Brother Mark
Jun 13th 2008, 01:32 PM
OK, you drew me back in...LOL.....:D

I just wanted to point out that NO ONE has even insinuated, that one can be saved without coming TO Christ...what we are saying, however is that MAYBE Jesus will show them that way, BEYOND our own judgements...even in the age to come.

Indeed this is very true! A man doesn't have to have all the facts. When God does show them the way, it will be through the Way, the Truth, and The Life, one Christ Jesus. But how he shows them may be something far beyond what we think will happen. There are miraculous examples in scripture of how he revealed Christ to man. There are miraculous examples in the here and now of how he has done it.

fewarechosen
Jun 13th 2008, 02:13 PM
god does not lie

do you know why?

because whatever he says becomes the truth. he is the truth

if he said right now that none of this ever happend

guess what it never happend


dont get hung up on human understanding god is far greater than man



it is not proud to say jesus is the only way-- but its pride to say you know which -- individuals- are going to hell.

Brother Mark
Jun 13th 2008, 02:17 PM
god does not lie

do you know why?

because whatever he says becomes the truth. he is the truth

if he said right now that none of this ever happend

guess what it never happend


dont get hung up on human understanding god is far greater than man

it is not proud to say jesus is the only way-- but its pride to say you know which -- individuals- are going to hell.

God told us which individuals were going to heaven. Those that are clothed in Christ. When a Muslim, who sees Jesus as only a prophet, flies into a building and murders in the name of allah, he dies and goes to hell. Why? Because he rejected Jesus as the Living God.

That's not pride. That's simply believing what is written.

And as for the other statement, even God doesn't undo the past.

jmj
Jun 13th 2008, 02:39 PM
Interesting discussion- in my humble opinion, in almost all cases, one cannot become a Christian unless they've been told the Gospel of Christ (Romans 12:10-15). However, God's word also teaches that existence of creation is enough to point to God so men are without excuse (Romans 1:20).

To illusstrate this point, my pastor led a sermon a couple of months ago on this subject, and he mentioned a strange exception of a tribe who had not heard the message of Christ, but they had worked out from creation the existence of a God, and they recognised something was wrong with the world and wrong with themselves and they believed in a rescuer who would come and save them from this bad situation. So when a missionary team came and told them the Gospel, the tribe rejoiced in that this was the thing they had an abstract hope in and was the thing they were waiting for.

Were that tribe saved? It's a difficult question to answer, but to be honest, I don't think we can know the answer, because it just points to the fact that it is God's will who is saved and who is unsaved, and we can know that God is loving and perfectly just and will make the right decision- after all, He made us from our mother's womb Psalm 139:13 so we can leave it up to His righteous judgement :)

Brother Mark
Jun 13th 2008, 02:42 PM
Interesting discussion- in my humble opinion, in almost all cases, one cannot become a Christian unless they've been told the Gospel of Christ (Romans 12:10-15). However, God's word also teaches that existence of creation is enough to point to God so men are without excuse (Romans 1:20).

To illusstrate this point, my pastor led a sermon a couple of months ago on this subject, and he mentioned a strange exception of a tribe who had not heard the message of Christ, but they had worked out from creation the existence of a God, and they recognised something was wrong with the world and wrong with themselves and they believed in a rescuer who would come and save them from this bad situation. So when a missionary team came and told them the Gospel, the tribe rejoiced in that this was the thing they had an abstract hope in and was the thing they were waiting for.

I believe these folks were saved or searching. Either way, God sent them a missionary because in their hearts they were crying out to him. We see the same thing with the Ethiopian eunich and Cornelias in Acts.

jewel4Christ
Jun 13th 2008, 03:05 PM
god does not lie

do you know why?

because whatever he says becomes the truth. he is the truth

if he said right now that none of this ever happend

guess what it never happend


dont get hung up on human understanding god is far greater than man



it is not proud to say jesus is the only way-- but its pride to say you know which -- individuals- are going to hell.


Yep....

luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

1 Cr 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/1Cr/5/13.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=5&verse=13&version=KJV#13)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=5&verse=13&version=KJV#13)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=5&verse=13&version=KJV#13)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=5&verse=13&version=KJV#13)
1Cr 5:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=5&verse=13&version=kjv#13)
But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.


So simple.

peaceandlove,

janet

matthew94
Jun 13th 2008, 03:14 PM
One of the reasons this question is difficult is b/c we use the term 'Christian' in so many different ways. It can mean those who are genuinely following Christ OR it can mean those who check a box on a survey. In fact, we could ask the question "Can a Christian miss heaven?" and there would be a legitimate 'no' answer AND a legitimate 'yes' answer. What I mean is, one person could say, "of course a Christian won't miss heaven!" and they'd be right in the sense they are talking about. But another person could chime in to say "Well lots of people are part of the Christian religion but aren't genuine followers of Christ, and they'll miss heaven" and they'd be right in the sense they were using the term.

So when we ask can 'non-Christians make heaven' we may run into the same problem. There very well may be people who fall outside of certain definitions of 'Christian' who are still following Christ to the best of their ability (even if in ignorance to His name). Thankfully, Jesus knows those who are pursuing the Father via Him.

It's also important to remember that Scripture was written to those who can access it. We shouldn't make bold declarations about the fate of those in ignorance. If anything, Scriptures provide hope regarding the fate of such people.

Brother Mark
Jun 13th 2008, 03:17 PM
Yep....

luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

1 Cr 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/1Cr/5/13.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=5&verse=13&version=KJV#13)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=5&verse=13&version=KJV#13)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=5&verse=13&version=KJV#13)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=5&verse=13&version=KJV#13)
1Cr 5:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=5&verse=13&version=kjv#13)
But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.


So simple.

peaceandlove,

janet

No one is judging an individual. What is being said is that unless said individual has faith in Christ, he will die and go to hell. Scripture is rather clear on that. The word judges. We simply believe what the word says.

So simple. ;)

fewarechosen
Jun 13th 2008, 03:20 PM
Yep....

luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

1 Cr 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/1Cr/5/13.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=5&verse=13&version=KJV#13)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=5&verse=13&version=KJV#13)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=5&verse=13&version=KJV#13)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=5&verse=13&version=KJV#13)
1Cr 5:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=5&verse=13&version=kjv#13)
But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.


So simple.

peaceandlove,

janet


wow thanks for that scripture , specially the bold one.
its funny how i will sit in here and bicker for a long time on something i "know" is true. then something will come along and sort of show me what im talking about. cause i recall that scripture but now it really sunk in.

Brother Mark
Jun 13th 2008, 03:29 PM
wow thanks for that scripture , specially the bold one.
its funny how i will sit in here and bicker for a long time on something i "know" is true. then something will come along and sort of show me what im talking about. cause i recall that scripture but now it really sunk in.

Here is how they are judged.


John 12:48-49
48 "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
NASB

What does the word say about a Muslim who rejects the deity of Christ and sees him as only a prophet and who then flies a plane into a building in the name of his idol, allah? The word says that man will go to hell.

That is the judgment of God.

Kingsdaughter
Jun 13th 2008, 04:18 PM
I think it perfectly on target. I had a friend that was a druggie. He didn't know anything about Jesus. He had heard somewhere about the 10 commandments and that was all he knew about God. One day, God showed up and asked him "What will heaven be like". My friend thought about his life and how his friends were out stealing for their drug habit while he was at home. The first thing that came to mind was "Well, there won't be any stealing up there." Then he realized how much he lied and decided that there would be any liars up there. He thought about murder and the suffering it caused and realized there wouldn't be any murderer up there. Eventually, he realized "Wow, I am thinking about the 10 commandments". It scared him because he was guilty of those things. Then he repented and asked God for mercy. He knew he was condemned and was scared of what that might mean. God immediately gave him a vision of a man on a cross. He had never seen anything like it before. But immediately he knew it was God's son and that he died for him. Immediately, he felt better but wasn't sure what had happened. Because it was the 10 commandments that convicted him, he went and got a bible. He began reading through the NT. There he discovered the man on the cross was Jesus. He also learned what happened to him was called being "Born again". His testimony was amazing the first time I heard it.

I believe the Lord has answered my question.Your friend's testimony is DEEP! I always asked God how those who have never heard the gospel message through a person, what happens to them when they die and He would lead me to that passage in Romans and other scripture verses, but I didn't understand. God gives them the message Himself. He reveals Himself to those who seek Him. God is so incredibly amazing, I love to learn more about Him, like that song," I want to know You more Lord". Thanks Mark.

fewarechosen
Jun 13th 2008, 04:27 PM
you should have bolded the part that says--has one who judges him

no worries man i know im in the right the holy spirit makes that clear to me.


you have the ability to know on a individual bases who is going to hell

god im sure will reward you for that.

Brother Mark
Jun 13th 2008, 04:42 PM
you should have bolded the part that says--has one who judges him

no worries man i know im in the right the holy spirit makes that clear to me.


you have the ability to know on a individual bases who is going to hell

god im sure will reward you for that.

Now who's judging? ;) As I said before, the one who judges is the word. We know who is going to hell based on what the word says. Those that don't repent and trust in God go to hell.

John146
Jun 13th 2008, 04:58 PM
No one is judging an individual. What is being said is that unless said individual has faith in Christ, he will die and go to hell. Scripture is rather clear on that. The word judges. We simply believe what the word says.

So simple. ;)

It really is that simple. It is not being judgmental and we're not condemning someone unfairly just by simply accepting and believing what scripture says, such as when Jesus said, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.".

Now, it's not for us to decide who truly believes in Him and who doesn't. But there's nothing wrong with saying that those who do believe in Him and know Him will be with Him for eternity while those who don't believe Him and don't know Him even up until the time they die are in hell and eventually will be cast into the lake of fire. Scripture is clear about those things.

It was suggested that maybe some will get a second chance after they die, such as on the day of judgment, to accept Christ but scripture does not say that anywhere.

Brother Mark
Jun 13th 2008, 05:01 PM
It really is that simple. It is not being judgmental and we're not condemning someone unfairly just by simply accepting and believing what scripture says, such as when Jesus said, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.".

Now, it's not for us to decide who truly believes in Him and who doesn't. But there's nothing wrong with saying that those who do believe in Him and know Him will be with Him for eternity while those who don't believe Him and don't know Him even up until the time they die are in hell and eventually will be cast into the lake of fire. Scripture is clear about those things.

It was suggested that maybe some will get a second chance after they die, such as on the day of judgment, to accept Christ but scripture does not say that anywhere.

That is so well said, it bears repeating. I just figured I would respond to it so it could be in this thread twice. Great post.

Mograce2U
Jun 13th 2008, 05:14 PM
Interesting discussion- in my humble opinion, in almost all cases, one cannot become a Christian unless they've been told the Gospel of Christ (Romans 12:10-15). However, God's word also teaches that existence of creation is enough to point to God so men are without excuse (Romans 1:20).

To illusstrate this point, my pastor led a sermon a couple of months ago on this subject, and he mentioned a strange exception of a tribe who had not heard the message of Christ, but they had worked out from creation the existence of a God, and they recognised something was wrong with the world and wrong with themselves and they believed in a rescuer who would come and save them from this bad situation. So when a missionary team came and told them the Gospel, the tribe rejoiced in that this was the thing they had an abstract hope in and was the thing they were waiting for.

Were that tribe saved? It's a difficult question to answer, but to be honest, I don't think we can know the answer, because it just points to the fact that it is God's will who is saved and who is unsaved, and we can know that God is loving and perfectly just and will make the right decision- after all, He made us from our mother's womb Psalm 139:13 so we can leave it up to His righteous judgement :)The hope of a Deliverer to come and redeem mankind was given to Adam and Eve in the garden before any children were born to them. That hope may have dimmed thru the centuries, but the truth of it was sent into the earth at the beginning. Therefore, I would expect that some remote tribe who had not yet heard the name of Jesus via the gospel, might still have a glimmer of this hope that was revealed so long ago. And so any who call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. The testimony of creation is enough to point them to God, and so man is not ignorant of his Creator.

Those who actively oppose the truth of God which has been revealed, do so willfully - not because of ignorance.

(Isa 55:11 KJV) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Friend of I AM
Jun 13th 2008, 06:15 PM
I think God is a savior of all men, particularly those who believe. Nothing is impossible for him. God knows the hearts and thoughts of each man, and I think he extends his mercy to all of mankind - not just to those who profess themselves to be Christians.

fewarechosen
Jun 13th 2008, 06:38 PM
it just appears there are 2 types in this thread

ones who are able to point and say --you are going to hell

and ones who think -- we are all worthy of hell let god decide

the good news is we all get to die and find out which opinion is more favored by god

jewel4Christ
Jun 13th 2008, 07:49 PM
wow thanks for that scripture , specially the bold one.
its funny how i will sit in here and bicker for a long time on something i "know" is true. then something will come along and sort of show me what im talking about. cause i recall that scripture but now it really sunk in.

Yeah, and, I don't want to argue this anymore but, simply wanted to share an opinion on it...I suppose everyone is going to see this how they see it, and hopefully God will sort it all out in the end.


I agree with your assessment.....:D


peaceandlove,


janet

Brother Mark
Jun 13th 2008, 07:51 PM
Yeah, and, I don't want to argue this anymore but, simply wanted to share an opinion on it...I suppose everyone is going to see this how they see it, and hopefully God will sort it all out in the end.


I agree with your assessment.....:D


peaceandlove,


janet

He's already sorted it out and told us the judging process. Better to make sure one is part of the process now than to wait till later.

jewel4Christ
Jun 13th 2008, 08:17 PM
He's already sorted it out and told us the judging process. Better to make sure one is part of the process now than to wait till later.

I don't want to argue. I personally believe that God alone can judge someone. HE takes into consideration all things and, part of that is ignorance. I also see in the word of God that there is a future engrafting, and that AFTER Jesus returns, and, that is another reason I am not going to judge anyone NOW as pertaining to their salvation. There is ample scripture on that, too.

Let's just call a truce, and agree to disagree, because that is all that is left to do.


:Dpeaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 13th 2008, 08:35 PM
I don't want to argue. I personally believe that God alone can judge someone. HE takes into consideration all things and, part of that is ignorance. I also see in the word of God that there is a future engrafting, and that AFTER Jesus returns, and, that is another reason I am not going to judge anyone NOW as pertaining to their salvation. There is ample scripture on that, too.

Let's just call a truce, and agree to disagree, because that is all that is left to do.


:Dpeaceandlove,

janet

No truce because what is being taught is one can get to heaven without faith in Christ. Want me to quote scriptures on ignorance? Here's one where Paul is praying for there salvation, meaning they are lost and going to hell.

Rom 10:1-3

10 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
NASB

Of course, Romans 1 also says they are without excuse.

Now, one can repent before he dies and go to heaven. But if one continues in unbelief, he goes to hell.

jewel4Christ
Jun 13th 2008, 09:21 PM
No truce because what is being taught is one can get to heaven without faith in Christ. Want me to quote scriptures on ignorance? Here's one where Paul is praying for there salvation, meaning they are lost and going to hell.

Rom 10:1-3

10 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
NASB

Of course, Romans 1 also says they are without excuse.

Now, one can repent before he dies and go to heaven. But if one continues in unbelief, he goes to hell. http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1671841)

I think there must be some type of huge misconception going on here. I for do NOT believe one can be saved WITHOUT FAITH in Christ...you are talking apples and oranges, in mho.

What I have stated and others likewise, that I have read, is that we cannot judge a person before God has the last word on the matter..for He might very well bring them to "faith" in HIS OWN TIME...even after death.

Please don't take my words out of context.

God looks on the heart, and by doing so, HE KNOWS the ignorance of men...and, He is ALSO bigger than the ignorance of men, and so is His grace...

and, MERCY.


Some people have NEVER had a chance at "faith"...that is what we are saying. God does NOT judge those whom have not had that chance, by YOUR strict standards.


I am calling for a truce....at least from my perspective, if you want to continue this debate, go ahead, I am not going to argue with it anymore.


peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 13th 2008, 09:25 PM
I think there must be some type of huge misconception going on here. I for do NOT believe one can be saved WITHOUT FAITH in Christ...you are talking apples and oranges, in mho.

What I have stated and others likewise, that I have read, is that we cannot judge a person before God has the last word on the matter..for He might very well bring them to "faith" in HIS OWN TIME...even after death.

Not after death. Universalism won't fly either. After death comes the judgment.


God looks on the heart, and by doing so, HE KNOWS the ignorance of men...and, He is ALSO bigger than the ignorance of men, and so is His grace...

and, MERCY.Mercy for those in his Son. Those in Romans 1 and Romans 10, who in ignorance insist on going their own way are still judged. Why? Because God made himself evident to them.


Some people have NEVER had a chance at "faith"...that is what we are saying. God does NOT judge those whom have not had that chance, by YOUR strict standards.Sure they do. That's what Romans 1 teaches. There not my standards. They're the standards written in the book.


I am calling for a truce....at least from my perspective, if you want to continue this debate, go ahead, I am not going to argue with it anymore.OK.

theleast
Jun 14th 2008, 04:52 PM
3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

EndTimes0
Dec 4th 2016, 10:32 AM
There are probably more non christians than people who consider themselves christian who go to heaven.
Most important is to love. True love comes from the heart.

God first talked to me a few years back. Since then i have been tested how much love i show from the heart.

"Blessed are the pure in heart....."
"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."

mailmandan
Dec 4th 2016, 01:15 PM
There are probably more non christians than people who consider themselves christian who go to heaven. Absolutely false. Non-Christians are unbelievers and what did Jesus say about those who will not be condemned and who will be condemned in John 3:18?

TrustGzus
Dec 4th 2016, 01:27 PM
It's alive! After 8-1/2 years, it's alive!!!!!

mailmandan
Dec 4th 2016, 01:28 PM
It's alive! After 8-1/2 years, it's alive!!!!! LOL! I just now noticed the OP is from 2008. :D