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davidandme
Jun 14th 2008, 08:48 PM
The Bible talks about 2 diferent laws. The first Law is the moral Law of God. (the Ten Comandmenats). This Law lets us know what sin is. The second law, are the ceremonial laws. These laws told us what to do about sin before Jesus came. Please read this text.
Heb 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Without shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. But Jesus had not died yet. So the sacrificial system was need it. This was very true in the O.T.
Law and sacrifice go toguether. This is true. But there are two laws. One was spoken and written by God, the other was given and then written by Moses. Here are some examples of this in the bible. Exo31:18
And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
Deut 10:1
At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood.
Deut 5:22
These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me
Deut 4:13
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deut 10:1
At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood.
Deut 31:9 . 24
And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.
24
And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Psalms 119:151-172
Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.
152 Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
1 john 3:4
One Law was put inside the Ark of the covenant. The other laws were put by the side of the Ark. Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, 

Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
Heb 9:9-10
Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience

The moral law of God (Ten comandmants) were written by the hand of God and spoken by God to the people of Israel. This Law is eternal and perfect, just like God is.
Psalms 119:151-172
Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.
152 Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
1 john 3:4


Psalms 19:7-8
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
.8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes

As you can see from these texts the moral Law of God is perfect and everlasting.
So how do we know what sin is? Rom 3:20
Rom 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law the knowledge of sin.

If it wasn't for the Law we wouln't know what sin is. So when did sin started? Eze 28:16 [I]
By the multitude of your goods they have filled your midst with violence, and you have sinned. So I cast you profaned from the height of God, and I destroy you, O covering cherub, from among the stones of fire

As you can see here, sin started with the devil, before this planet was created. The Bible tells us that sin began in this world by man.
Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


So how do we know what sin is? The Law tells us what it is. When did sin started? With the Devil. Was there a Law when the devil sinned? I think, that you are smart enough to answer this one. So the Law and Character of God were there before sin. This is a Biblical and logical conclusion. Now, the sacrificial or ceremonial laws pointed to Jesus. These laws were nailed to the cross.

Naphal
Jun 15th 2008, 02:56 AM
The Bible talks about 2 diferent laws. The first Law is the moral Law of God. (the Ten Comandmenats). This Law lets us know what sin is. The second law, are the ceremonial laws.

The ten commandments are composed both of moral and ceremonial laws/commandments. The bible does not speak of the OT having two laws in the sense you imply but one law containing "judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments", "and precepts, statutes, and laws". All of these things were the one law of God.


Numbers 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

Nehemiah 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
Nehemiah 9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

davidandme
Jun 15th 2008, 03:35 AM
You are taking Numbers 15:16 out of context. This text is talking about the fact that nobody has the right to change the ordinances (ceremonial laws) in that time period. Look at the previous text and you will get a better idea. Numbers 15:15-16 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD.
16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

In the Hebrew mind one also meant "united" Please read Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Naphal
Jun 15th 2008, 03:42 AM
You are taking Numbers 15:16 out of context. This text is talking about the fact that nobody has the right to change the ordinances (ceremonial laws) in that time period. Look at the previous text and you will get a better idea. Numbers 15:15-16 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD.
16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

It's not out of context...

I think you are confusing the "ordinances" mentioned in the previous verse with law which is Torah in the Hebrew of the verse I quoted. There is one Torah.

This is further proven in the NT when there are two covenants spoken of, the new one and the old one which is the one of Sinai, which includes the one law.


Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Galatians 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


It isn't biblical to say the ten commandments was one law and a second law were the "other laws"....all OT laws and commandments were of one law.

davidandme
Jun 15th 2008, 03:51 AM
This is one traslation fron the hebrew word Torah. I checked it my self. תורה
law, direction, instruction

a) instruction, direction (human or divine)

1) body of prophetic teaching

2) instruction in Messianic age

3) body of priestly direction or instruction

4) body of legal directives

b) law

1) law of the burnt offering

2) of special law, codes of law

c) custom, manner

d) the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law


I see that Mosaic Law is on the list.
Here is another word in hebrew that means Law. This one is taken from Gen 26:5
מצוה mitsvah

losthorizon
Jun 15th 2008, 03:58 AM
The Bible talks about 2 diferent laws. The first Law is the moral Law of God. (the Ten Comandmenats). This Law lets us know what sin is. The second law, are the ceremonial laws. These laws told us what to do about sin before Jesus came. Please read this text. [SIZE=2]

The inspired writers of the OT never separate the 10 commandments from the rest of the law of Moses and the Law of Moses as a whole was nailed to the cross. Jesus Christ is the end of the law which he fulfilled perfectly.
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” Rom 10:4

davidandme
Jun 15th 2008, 04:21 AM
Please compare Deut 31:26 with Heb 9:10 and Colossians 2:14. The book that was put on the side of the ark was not all the Laws of God. The Ten comandmants were written by the hand of God and put inside the ark and the ordinances given to Moses were written on books by Moses and put on the side of the ark. Do you think there a reason for this? Notice how the ceremonial laws written by Moses were witness against the people of Israel. Why? becuase Jesus has not die yet. "against them or imposed on" them, meant, it was only temporary because it pointed to Jesus. These laws were temporary, they were shadows of things to come. They were nailed to the cross. The character of God (the ten Comandmants) were not nailed to the cross. If it did. Then why did Jesus died? To defeat God?

Naphal
Jun 15th 2008, 04:46 AM
Please compare Deut 31:26 with Heb 9:10 and Colossians 2:14. The book that was put on the side of the ark was not all the Laws of God. The Ten comandmants were written by the hand of God and put inside the ark and the ordinances given to Moses were written on books by Moses and put on the side of the ark.

Again, scripture does not support the concept that there were two different "laws" given at Sinai. One full and concise law was given that covered all portions of ones life. The ten commandments were the first ten to be given but this does not make them a different and separate law apart from the others. The law was the law!

manichunter
Jun 15th 2008, 05:45 AM
According to Matt 5:17-20, Jesus got us covered. No matter what side of the fence you are on. If you believe Torah is dead, no problem. If you believe Torah lives spiritually, no problem. No one is justified by the Torah as righteous, no disagreement. You can make it to everlasting life no matter what you believe about Torah. However, there are some stipulations regarding observing it and not observing. If you desire to be least, no problem. It want effect you ticket, just where you will be seated when heaven and earth pass away. I want first class baby all the way for me.................. Coach it is for the lawless. LOL

Naphal
Jun 15th 2008, 05:51 AM
You can make it to everlasting life no matter what you believe about Torah.

Are you sure?


Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


Can you marry Christ if you are not dead to the law? I believe this says you must be dead to the law in order to marry Christ as his bride.

manichunter
Jun 15th 2008, 06:13 AM
Is circumcision done away with, yes, circumcision of the flesh (actually cutting of oneself). That circumcision has died. It was what God intend for it to do. It was a physical fore shadow of His real spiritual intent. However, circumcision has been made spirit, that is circumcision of the heart. This is what God intended all of long.

The Jews got fixated on physical circumcision not understanding that God wanted spiritual circumcision all the long. It is the same way with torah. It has died physically and now resurrected spiritually. No one can get save without circumcision of the heart. It is the means of receiving the seed of the Holy Spirit. 1Pe 1:23 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1pe+1:23&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en)

De 30:6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+30:6&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) De 10:16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+10:16&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Jer 9:26 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=jer+9:26&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Ac 7:51 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+7:51&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Ro 2:29 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+2:29&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en). Check the last verse provided. Torah in the spirit, not the letter. The only ones not getting this message is the carnal minded. The spiritual minded people are starting to grasp that the torah has not pass away. It has been spiritualized like the circumcision.

The proper translation for torah is the word instruction. Should we be dead to instructions given by God........ Yes, instructions that are given the flesh are dead because it cannot give life, but not instruction given in spirit because they are the means of love and life.
Heb 8:10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=heb+8:10&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Heb 10:16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=heb+10:16&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Jer 31:33 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=jer+31:33&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Eze 11:19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eze+11:19&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Eze 36:27 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eze+36:27&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Isa 59:21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=isa+59:21&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en)

Calling all Bereans to see if this of God. It determines your seat on the bus.

According to Matt 5:17-20, Jesus got us covered. No matter what side of the fence you are on. If you believe Torah is dead, no problem. If you believe Torah lives spiritually, no problem. No one is justified by the Torah as righteous, no disagreement. You can make it to everlasting life no matter what you believe about Torah. However, there are some stipulations regarding observing it and not observing. If you desire to be the least, no problem. It will not want effect you ticket, just where you will be seated when heaven and earth pass away. I want first class baby all the way for me.................. Coach it is for the lawless. LOL

Naphal
Jun 15th 2008, 06:18 AM
It has been spiritualized like the circumcision.


That's fine but I am of course talking about those who are not dead to the literal law...those that believe obedience to the Sinai law. Can one still be married to the law and also be married to Christ according to the scripture?

manichunter
Jun 15th 2008, 06:38 AM
That law at Sinai pointing to the spiritual law that most believers are ignorant of. Most say that there is no law. But as proven by the circumcision example. There is a torah, but something happen to it and how it applies. Hence we get what Jesus said. Some will no longer do torah and teach others not to. Some will do it.


The problem is that people who try observe torah in the power of the flesh give torah a bad name. It cannot produce anything for you in the flesh. It does not make you any special or deserving than anyone else who does not observe torah.

However, It does add to your character, but not glory. It does give you a guide book of love, and you do not have to speculate any longer. It does provide a means of holiness, without being legalist. The legal requirement of the law is satisified. However, there were other parts to the torah. Those parts have been spiritualized for believers. The people of flesh will still be judge by physical torah. I had a friend who went to heaven and was judged in a dream. The Father told him that he was going to hell because he did not know His Son and that His sins against the torah proved him guilty. If He did not accept Christ in a week, then He would die in a week without Christ. Well that was twenty years ago and that person is pastoring now..... Torah was part of the judgement.

Naphal
Jun 15th 2008, 06:47 AM
It does provide a means of holiness, without being legalist.

Hmmmm....the first thing that comes to mind is that one cannot be obedient to the law and not be legalist which is why the NT speaks so much to the opposite in being dead to the law and freed from the law and it's bondage. The second thing is that I don't believe obedience to the law provides "a means of holiness"...

manichunter
Jun 15th 2008, 07:49 AM
Be ye Holy as I am holy, has to be done somehow. I know this is not a optional command and the means is not abritrary.
antinomianism


Theology. The doctrine or belief that the Gospel frees Christians from required obedience to any law, whether scriptural, civil, or moral, and that salvation is attained solely through faith and the gift of divine grace.
The belief that moral laws are relative in meaning and application as opposed to fixed or universal.
This is what has happen to christianity. This is the cause for all the denominational splits, various church creeds (cloaked torahs), and racism in the body of Christ.

http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gif

Naphal
Jun 15th 2008, 07:56 AM
Be ye Holy as I am holy, has to be done somehow. I know this is not a optional command and the means is not abritrary.
antinomianism


Theology. The doctrine or belief that the Gospel frees Christians from required obedience to any law, whether scriptural, civil, or moral, and that salvation is attained solely through faith and the gift of divine grace.
The belief that moral laws are relative in meaning and application as opposed to fixed or universal.
This is what has happen to christianity. This is the cause for all the denominational splits, various church creeds (cloaked torahs), and racism in the body of Christ.


http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gif


I don't know of any denom. in Chistianity that believes in what is given in those definitions. That's not at all what has caused the divisions. It's lack of knowledge, lack of faith and lack of knowing Christ that did that. It is unrelated wholly to the concept of being freed from the law and being dead to the law.

manichunter
Jun 15th 2008, 08:38 AM
No the major work of strife within and between Denominationalism is over beliefs of Scripture. They have their cloaked torah, mishnahs that they teach and tell their congregations to observe. You missed it. All this confusion is created by an environment of relativity concerning who should define truth. The results speak for themselves that most christians have taken it upon himself to define truth, because God is not the author of confusion, and we have confusion. ..............
Wear this, no speaking in tongues, and we believe this about predestination. We fool ourself because our flesh hates law. The word for torah is also translation instructions and guidance.

Challenge your belief system by looking for Scripture that contradict what you believe, then ask the Spirit to reconcile them. God's word always agrees with itself, it is us that gets confused in our carnality.

davidandme
Jun 15th 2008, 03:07 PM
Remember 2 diferent laws. :)

davidandme
Jun 15th 2008, 03:11 PM
Very insightful, and very true.

jewel4Christ
Jun 15th 2008, 04:40 PM
Hmmmm....the first thing that comes to mind is that one cannot be obedient to the law and not be legalist which is why the NT speaks so much to the opposite in being dead to the law and freed from the law and it's bondage. The second thing is that I don't believe obedience to the law provides "a means of holiness"...

This is true. The whole reason Israel got cut off, was due to them misusing the law, for they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the deeds of the law.

Thanks for speaking out against this false teaching.......;)


peaceandlove,

janet

davidandme
Jun 15th 2008, 11:22 PM
did you actually read the Bible text I post? If you didn't that's OK. I am not the one who is going to save you. (by the way I am not saying that the Law saves anybody) I see the reason most people don't want to belive in the moral law of God is because they don't want to keep the Sabbath. Most people don't have a problem with any other law of the Ten Comandments. You know you can worship any god or no god at all and still keep all the commandmants, except the Sabbath.

losthorizon
Jun 16th 2008, 12:51 AM
did you actually read the Bible text I post? If you didn't that's OK. I am not the one who is going to save you. (by the way I am not saying that the Law saves anybody) I see the reason most people don't want to belive in the moral law of God is because they don't want to keep the Sabbath. Most people don't have a problem with any other law of the Ten Comandments. You know you can worship any god or no god at all and still keep all the commandmants, except the Sabbath.
But Christians are under the Law of Christ which includes nine of the ten commands given to Moses at Sinai – the only command not reiterated in the Law of Christ is the fourth command to keep the Sabbath. Christians have never been required to “keep” that day as a matter of law – it is part of the shadows of Judaism. Christians certainly can obey the "moral law of God" without any "day-keeping" requirement.
"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." Galatians 4:9-11

Naphal
Jun 16th 2008, 01:25 AM
I see the reason most people don't want to belive in the moral law of God is because they don't want to keep the Sabbath.

I don't know of any Christians that don't want to believe in the moral laws of God. But, the Sabbath was never a moral law nor part of God's moral laws. It was a ceremonial law that has now been fulfilled. What the fulfillment is transcends the carnal notion of rest into a spiritual rest. Without spiritual "eyes" one won't be able to see the difference between the old covenant Sabbath day and the new covenant Sabbath eternity.

jewel4Christ
Jun 16th 2008, 01:32 AM
I don't know of any Christians that don't want to believe in the moral laws of God. But, the Sabbath was never a moral law nor part of God's moral laws. It was a ceremonial law that has now been fulfilled. What the fulfillment is transcends the carnal notion of rest into a spiritual rest. Without spiritual "eyes" one won't be able to see the difference between the old covenant Sabbath day and the new covenant Sabbath eternity.

AMEN! :idea::idea::idea:

peaceandlove,

janet

manichunter
Jun 16th 2008, 01:53 AM
This is ludacris, how can you say God would write Ten Laws of the marriage covenant on Two Tablets of stone (One stone with four commands and the other with six commmands) as the vows of the first marriage covenant on the day of Pentecost, just to take the same hand and scratch one out. God changes not. There is no scriptural justification to say that God scratched out the Sabbath. There is no scriptural proof that Sunday was established either. I dare someone to provide a Scripture saying Sunday is holy day commanded by God to be observed as the day of public assembly. Where does Scripture say it replaced Sabbath? Everyone provides speculation, but God does operate in speculation. He gave the Sabbath by deffinite command with details. Sunday has no been the same importance or none at all by God. God has ignored sunday in His Scripture, it was never fore shadowed or endorsed by decree..........

Yes, it had ceremonial aspects, but it was not a part of the ceremonial torah. (God wrote that commandment in pencil and the rest in permanent marker). LOL HAAAAAAAHAAALAHA wuuuuh wow!

jewel4Christ
Jun 16th 2008, 02:27 AM
This is ludacris, how can you say God would write Ten Laws of the marriage covenant on Two Tablets of stone (One stone with four commands and the other with six commmands) as the vows of the first marriage covenant on the day of Pentecost, just to take the same hand and scratch one out. God changes not. There is no scriptural justification to say that God scratched out the Sabbath. There is no scriptural proof that Sunday was established either. I dare someone to provide a Scripture saying Sunday is holy day commanded by God to be observed as the day of public assembly. Where does Scripture say it replaced Sabbath? Everyone provides speculation, but God does operate in speculation. He gave the Sabbath by deffinite command with details. Sunday has no been the same importance or none at all by God. God has ignored sunday in His Scripture, it was never fore shadowed or endorsed by decree..........

Yes, it had ceremonial aspects, but it was not a part of the ceremonial torah. (God wrote that commandment in pencil and the rest in permanent marker). LOL HAAAAAAAHAAALAHA wuuuuh wow!

Jesus is the true sabbath, the day only pointed to Him. It is HIM that supplies the rest we need, in the spiritual aspect of the law....

No one has EVER kept the sabbath in the physical form....perfectly. In fact, that was why it was created, to be that shadow of what could....JESUS.

Call it ludicris, it is what the word of God states, and btw, the early church met daily.

Everyday is holy, when you have the holy God living in you.


peaceandlove,


janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 16th 2008, 02:46 AM
ps 61:8 So will I sing praise unto thy name for ever, that I may daily perform my vows.

prov 8:30 Then I was by him, [as] one brought up [with him]: and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him;

prov 8:34 Blessed [is] the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

Math 26:55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.

Luke 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.


Luke 19:47 And he taught daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought to destroy him,

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,


Acts 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Worshipping God and learning of Him is a daily thing for christians.

peaceandlove,

janet

davidandme
Jun 16th 2008, 03:06 AM
The Bible agress with you 100%. so do I. :)

manichunter
Jun 16th 2008, 05:26 AM
But that regards personal worship, no problem. We are required to fellowship with God all the day long. This is a good thing, that we should agree on and do together on one accord. However, Sabbath is a different day. It is a day of holy convocation. A holy convocation is a day for a congregational assembly and brotherly fellowship. Israel was order to assemble on Sabbath for public worship. The Second Marriage Covenant says do not forsake the assembly of one another which is the manner of such. So we are also commanded to worship collectively.

So, I say again, where is the prophetic witness of the Sabbath (public day of assembly for collective worshop) being done away with and replaced? Where is the Scriptural Command to observed Sunday as the day of holy convocation. Worship towards God is both personal and collective..........
There are no text that commands the Sunday as a Sabbath. Yes they might have assembled on this day. Scripture say they assembled on a lot of days, to including the Sabbath. It is never stated by the Apostles that Sabbath was no longer holy. They continued to congregate on the Sabbath, to include private worship of the saints. Ac 13:42 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+13:42&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Ac 13:44 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+13:44&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Ac 16:13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+16:13&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Ac 18:4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:4&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en). The Jews days were name according to numbers except the day of preparation and Sabbath. If the first day was so holy, it would have been given a different name at least.

Where was witnessed in the Scripture? What happened to Scripture being established by two or three witnesses? Do the saints not study line upon line, precept upon precept anymore. There is more Scriptural examples of them meeting on Sabbath than the first day. Ac 20:7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+20:7&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) 1Co 16:2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+16:2&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en)
(http://www.sabbathfellowship.org/biblestudies/erwingane/biblestudy_gane_sabbathchng.htm)

davidandme
Jun 16th 2008, 12:52 PM
Where is that in the Bible? I have pleanty of proof otherwise. I know that this is what they have tought you all your life. But if you study more closely you will find that this is not true. Jesus rested on the Sabbath even on his death. The deciples and the gentiles kept the Sabbath. Look at the world languages. Example: Sabbath= Sabado in Spanish and so much more. God bless.

jewel4Christ
Jun 16th 2008, 03:49 PM
Heb 4 shows how the "day" only pointed to the true rest that is available in Christ.

The "day" itself, is not, nor never was where the rest originates.

peaceandlove,

janet

davidandme
Jun 16th 2008, 04:58 PM
The motive to obey the Law of God and the law of Christ (Rev. 14:12.) Is becuase we love the Lord. Becuase of sin Jesus suffered and died for us. Because of this grace, are we going to keep on sinning? God forbid. Does grace gives us a licence to sin? You are not very thankful to the Lord if you do that. If you don't know that you are in sin, why do you seek the Lord? Why do you need grace? Why do you need to be saved? Saved from what?

jewel4Christ
Jun 16th 2008, 07:49 PM
The motive to obey the Law of God and the law of Christ (Rev. 14:12.) Is becuase we love the Lord. Becuase of sin Jesus suffered and died for us. Because of this grace, are we going to keep on sinning? God forbid. Does grace gives us a licence to sin? You are not very thankful to the Lord if you do that. If you don't know that you are in sin, why do you seek the Lord? Why do you need grace? Why do you need to be saved? Saved from what?

Is this quote to me?

Thanks..

peaceandlove,

janet

davidandme
Jun 16th 2008, 09:04 PM
Thank you. Very good post. I am learning my self from all of these posts. I think this is a Bible truth not a particular denomination. God bless.

Naphal
Jun 16th 2008, 09:35 PM
Jesus rested on the Sabbath even on his death.

No, Jesus always worked on the Sabbath even while he was dead he was hard at work.

davidandme
Jun 17th 2008, 01:53 AM
The laws given to Moses for him to write are the shadows of things to come. There is nothing shadowy about any of the Ten Comandmants. This is a Bible answer not a denominational answer. I hope some day, we all come to a unifiying conclusion about these important subjects. God bless.

davidandme
Jun 17th 2008, 01:59 AM
Jesus did healead the sick and preached on the Sabbath. The phareses did not like this because they were keeping the Sabbath wrong. Jesus was dead on the Sabbath. How can you work while you are dead? Jesus said on John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. This is a Biblical teaching not a denominational teaching. God bless.

davidandme
Jun 17th 2008, 02:11 AM
Why is the Sabbath day part of the Ten Comandments, written by God own finger? (Holy Spirit) He even set an example by keeping it himself after creation. Notice that I am not talking about the ceremonial sabbaths( holydays) that the Jewish people celebrated every year.

Naphal
Jun 17th 2008, 07:25 AM
How can you work while you are dead?

There is no such thing as soul sleep. Only the human body of Jesus lay dead, but not Jesus himself.

davidandme
Jun 17th 2008, 12:55 PM
We don't have a soul, we are a soul. I can prove it Biblically, but not right now :)

manichunter
Jun 17th 2008, 05:08 PM
Matthew 24:15-28
15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:15&sr=1&t=nas) "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION R884 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R884) OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the R885 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R885) holy place (let R886 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R886) the reader understand), 16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:16&sr=1&t=nas) then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:17&sr=1&t=nas) "Whoever F519 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F519) is on the R887 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R887) housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:18&sr=1&t=nas) "Whoever F520 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F520) is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:19&sr=1&t=nas) "But woe R888 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R888) to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:20&sr=1&t=nas) "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:21&sr=1&t=nas) "For then there will be a great R889 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R889) tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:22&sr=1&t=nas) "Unless those days had been cut short, no life F521 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F521) would have been saved; but for the R890 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R890) sake of the elect F522 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F522) those days will be cut short. 23 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:23&sr=1&t=nas) "Then R891 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R891) if anyone says to you, `Behold, here is the Christ,' F523 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F523) or `There F524 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F524) He is,' do not believe him. 24 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:24&sr=1&t=nas) "For false Christs and false R892 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R892) prophets will arise and will show F525 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F525) great signs R893 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R893) F526 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F526) and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the R894 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R894) elect. F527 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F527) 25 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:25&sr=1&t=nas) "Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:26&sr=1&t=nas) "So if they say to you, `Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, `Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. 27 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:27&sr=1&t=nas) "For R895 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R895) just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming R896 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R896) of the Son R897 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R897) of Man be. 28 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:28&sr=1&t=nas) "Wherever R898 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R898) the corpse is, there the vultures F528 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F528) will gather.

Why would Jesus refer to a day that most say is passed away and done away with as if it was still legit and observed............. He is talking prophetic about the end times and associates the Sabbaths with those times. Hence Jesus still showed respect for the Sabbath even in the Second Marriage Covenant. Was Jesus lieing or was the Bible altered to match the beliefs of Sabbath observers.

davidandme
Jun 17th 2008, 05:25 PM
Jesus said, " If you love me, obey my comandmants" It is only logical that if you love your paternal father you will try to please him and do what he asks you to do. Don't you think?

Naphal
Jun 17th 2008, 07:59 PM
We don't have a soul, we are a soul. I can prove it Biblically, but not right now :)


We have/are a soul and a Spirit and a body. We are not only a soul.

Naphal
Jun 17th 2008, 08:00 PM
Matthew 24:15-28

15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:15&sr=1&t=nas) "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION R884 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R884) OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the R885 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R885) holy place (let R886 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R886) the reader understand), 16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:16&sr=1&t=nas) then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:17&sr=1&t=nas) "Whoever F519 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F519) is on the R887 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R887) housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:18&sr=1&t=nas) "Whoever F520 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F520) is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:19&sr=1&t=nas) "But woe R888 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R888) to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:20&sr=1&t=nas) "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:21&sr=1&t=nas) "For then there will be a great R889 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R889) tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:22&sr=1&t=nas) "Unless those days had been cut short, no life F521 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F521) would have been saved; but for the R890 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R890) sake of the elect F522 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F522) those days will be cut short. 23 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:23&sr=1&t=nas) "Then R891 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R891) if anyone says to you, `Behold, here is the Christ,' F523 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F523) or `There F524 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F524) He is,' do not believe him. 24 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:24&sr=1&t=nas) "For false Christs and false R892 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R892) prophets will arise and will show F525 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F525) great signs R893 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R893) F526 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F526) and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the R894 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R894) elect. F527 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F527) 25 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:25&sr=1&t=nas) "Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:26&sr=1&t=nas) "So if they say to you, `Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, `Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. 27 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:27&sr=1&t=nas) "For R895 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R895) just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming R896 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R896) of the Son R897 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R897) of Man be. 28 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:28&sr=1&t=nas) "Wherever R898 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R898) the corpse is, there the vultures F528 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F528) will gather.



Why would Jesus refer to a day that most say is passed away and done away with as if it was still legit and observed............. He is talking prophetic about the end times and associates the Sabbaths with those times. Hence Jesus still showed respect for the Sabbath even in the Second Marriage Covenant. Was Jesus lieing or was the Bible altered to match the beliefs of Sabbath observers.



The simple mention of a Sabbath day does not constitute a commanding of it.

Naphal
Jun 17th 2008, 08:01 PM
Jesus said, " If you love me, obey my comandmants" It is only logical that if you love your paternal father you will try to please him and do what he asks you to do. Don't you think?

Jesus said to obey his commandments and not once did he command the Sabbath day nor did any of his disciples or Apostles. It was only commanded under the old covenant which was replaced by the new. The Sabbath day command is null and void.

davidandme
Jun 17th 2008, 08:08 PM
A person is only countious when the body and the spirit(breath, and spirit are the same word in Hebrew) are toguether. The body alone is not a soul. Spirit alone is not a soul. Spirit and body have to be toguether in other to be a soul.

manichunter
Jun 17th 2008, 08:36 PM
Jesus said to obey his commandments and not once did he command the Sabbath day nor did any of his disciples or Apostles. It was only commanded under the old covenant which was replaced by the new. The Sabbath day command is null and void.

The reverse is true concerning your ascertian. There is no evidence that Jesus excluded the Sabbath from his commandments. The need of proof is greater since you are trying to prove an amendment took place. There is no Scriptural command to reject and not observe Sabbath.

Mark 10 list some of the commands.
17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"
18So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19You know the commandments: "Do not commit adultery,' "Do not murder,' "Do not steal,' "Do not bear false witness,' "Do not defraud,' "Honor your father and your mother."' F42 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=Mark+10&section=0&translation=nkj&oq=mr%252010&new=1&nb=mr&ng=10&ncc=10#F)
20And he answered and said to Him, "Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth."
21Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me."
22But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions
It only list the meal offering portions that are related to the loving thy neighbor part. It never says not to observe Sabbath. Jesus never said not to have idols before Him in the Second Covenant, so does that mean I can have idols. No, because it was understood He was talking about the commandments He was referring to all of them, this was the only time he went to any detail to make a point to the young man.........

davidandme
Jun 17th 2008, 08:59 PM
Two diferent laws, remember? Moses laws were shadows of things to come. And then Jesus came. I don't see nothing shadowdy about the Ten Comandmants. Do you? This law is forever. If you think that all the Laws are just a shadow, then I hope you don't get in trouble by stealing or killing. I think you are smarter than that :)

Teke
Jun 17th 2008, 09:03 PM
Two different laws????

If law is no longer a concern, then why do Christians have a "canon" (law) of scripture.

As to "ordianances", doesn't that have to do with us and what we do. Do we all do the same things.....

Friend of I AM
Jun 17th 2008, 09:13 PM
You are taking Numbers 15:16 out of context. This text is talking about the fact that nobody has the right to change the ordinances (ceremonial laws) in that time period. Look at the previous text and you will get a better idea. Numbers 15:15-16 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD.
16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

In the Hebrew mind one also meant "united" Please read Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Hey David,

You are correct. The ceremonial laws weren't allowed to be changed before the coming of the Messiah. I believe this was because they were established to represent part of covenant between God and the children of Israel.(i.e. circumcision, sabbath, etc)

At the time I think God required these things for a number of reasons(they were very practical laws, particularly the food and marriage ones - which really benefited Israel as a culture as well as from a spiritually) I think they also had alot of spiritual metaphors behind them as well.(i.e. unclean foods one puts in their body, metophorical for unclean spiritual things one puts in their body)

I think one of the main reasons why many of these laws were done away with(my own opinion) was due to the fact of that much of man's society had advanced over the years, and they had become less practical. Man knew how to take impurities out of various foods, so there was no longer a need to deem certain foods as unclean. Same goes for circumcision(man had probably developed ways of staying clean despite not being circumcised, personally though - I still circumcision is a good method of protecting one from getting infections in the foreskin area, but to each his own I suppose)

Also, the spiritual lessons had already been taught and fully represented in the testimonies of Christ as well, so most the old ceremonial laws were dubbed somewhat obselete. Of course we still have the law as a tutor of us at this point, and it is still very effective in directing us on what specifically God wants out of us in our daily walks.

jewel4Christ
Jun 17th 2008, 09:56 PM
Two diferent laws, remember? Moses laws were shadows of things to come. And then Jesus came. I don't see nothing shadowdy about the Ten Comandmants. Do you? This law is forever. If you think that all the Laws are just a shadow, then I hope you don't get in trouble by stealing or killing. I think you are smarter than that :)

It is not the stone letter that we are under as christians. It is the spiritual law of Christ.

If you keep the spiritual law of Christ, you will not kill, because the spiritual law says do not hate.

When we mix the two forms of law, we make contradictions in the word of God.

NO ONE has said you are NOT free to keep a sabbath, and in fact, when you keep the spiritual law of Christ, you also worship on saturday, because in it, the spiritual law, EVERYDAY IS NOW HOLY FOR YOU.

It is the ceremonial law that is done away with in Christ, and the part of the sabbath law that said one must have a convocation/meeting was CEREMONIAL....therefore we are NOT under that part.

We are FREE to meet everyday, and every minute of everyday is holy when you have the HOLY GOD LIVING IN YOU.

It is when you mix that old form of law and call it the true law of Christ that confusion comes in.......:hmm:, and why many today are misled.


peaceandlove,


janet

theleast
Jun 17th 2008, 10:03 PM
It is not the stone letter that we are under as christians. It is the spiritual law of Christ.

If you keep the spiritual law of Christ, you will not kill, because the spiritual law says do not hate.

When we mix the two forms of law, we make contradictions in the word of God.

NO ONE has said you are NOT free to keep a sabbath, and in fact, when you keep the spiritual law of Christ, you also worship on saturday, because in it, the spiritual law, EVERYDAY IS NOW HOLY FOR YOU.

It is the ceremonial law that is done away with in Christ, and the part of the sabbath law that said one must have a convocation/meeting was CEREMONIAL....therefore we are NOT under that part.

We are FREE to meet everyday, and every minute of everyday is holy when you have the HOLY GOD LIVING IN YOU.

It is when you mix that old form of law and call it the true law of Christ that confusion comes in.......:hmm:, and why many today are misled.


peaceandlove,


janet

9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

The red shows how Christs sacrifice was perfect.

The green shows how the sacrificing for sin under the law is in vain.

jewel4Christ
Jun 17th 2008, 10:13 PM
9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

The red shows how Christs sacrifice was perfect.

The green shows how the sacrificing for sin under the law is in vain.

Amen!

:bounce:

peaceandlove,

janet

davidandme
Jun 18th 2008, 12:22 AM
I totally agree. We can definetly learn something from the ceremonial laws.

theleast
Jun 18th 2008, 12:32 AM
I totally agree. We can definetly learn something from the ceremonial laws.

You can learn from why they were originally made for Israel, but don't make the mistake of thinking you are bound by that law now. Christ wrote a new law in our hearts and minds. Follow his 2 commandments and you will be doing all the law.

davidandme
Jun 18th 2008, 12:39 AM
The Sabbath was not a priority in Jesus agenda. Most of the Jews were already Sabbath keepers. Besides Jesus always went to the temple on the Sabbath. He also said and I am paraphrasing, If you must flee, pray that is not on the Sabbath. The pharisees and the Jewish nation were keeping the Sabbath wrong. Jesus went out of His way to teach them how to keep it. By healing and so forth. Remember, Jesus created everything. Including the Sabbath. He also say: Think not that I have come to change the Law and the prophets..... well you know the rest of the text. I can go on and on. But I won't. Have a blessed day.

davidandme
Jun 18th 2008, 12:57 AM
The 2 commandments are a summary of the whole Ten commandments. The first 4 deal with our relationship with God and the rest, deal with our relationship with men. Please read Luke 10:25-28 Notice what the lawyer answers. He never met Jesus before. Yet he knows of the this concept of the 2 commandmants already. here is the text:

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?


Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?


Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.


Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

davidandme
Jun 18th 2008, 02:44 AM
What is the spirit of the Law? Let the Bible answer this one for us. Please let's look at the following texts. Mat 12:28 Luke 11:20 Rom 7:14 and Exo 31:8
Exd 31:18 ¶ And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
Luk 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Do you see a pattern here? The Law was written by the finger of God. What is the finger of God? The finger of God is the spirit of God. This is why the law of God is spiritual, because He wrote it with His finger. God bless you always.

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 02:49 AM
What is the spirit of the Law? Let the Bible answer this one for us. Please let's look at the following texts. Mat 12:28 Luke 11:20 Rom 7:14 and Exo 31:8
Exd 31:18 ¶ And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
Luk 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Do you see a pattern here? The Law was written by the finger of God. What is the finger of God? The finger of God is the spirit of God. This is why the law of God is spiritual, because He wrote it with His finger. God bless you always.

The stone law is not the spirit of the law.

..but, I do like your shirt......:D

peaceandlove,

janet

davidandme
Jun 18th 2008, 03:25 AM
The stone Law is not any good if is not in our hearts. The shirt is a typical Miami-Latino shirt. I can tell you where you can get one. God bless. :)

Naphal
Jun 18th 2008, 03:28 AM
The reverse is true concerning your ascertian. There is no evidence that Jesus excluded the Sabbath from his commandments.

The evidence is that he did not make the Sabbath one of his commandments, not once. Therefore it is incorrect to say Jesus commanded the Sabbath.

Naphal
Jun 18th 2008, 03:34 AM
The Sabbath was not a priority in Jesus agenda.

That's quite an understatement. It wasn't part of his agenda at all. He never taught of it nor commanded it. He did say the word a few times but that's not a mandate rather than admission of it's existence. But for his followers, no specific day of rest was required. Any day to rest could be chosen by each person without sin or wrong.

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 04:00 AM
The stone Law is not any good if is not in our hearts. The shirt is a typical Miami-Latino shirt. I can tell you where you can get one. God bless. :)

When the stone law is used for a right purpose, in our hearts, it brings us to a place where we know we are condemned..that was it's purpose, and, then God shows us the true spiritual intent of HIS law, which is based on love and mercy, which entails making a change in the law, of stone, as the word of God states, and when this is done, love and mercy are therefore added therein, making a necessary "changed heart", wherein the spirit quickens us to a new understanding of what the law entails...we no longer are told to not kill, we are told to not hate, we are no longer told to not commit adultery, we are told to not lust after another man's/woman's spouse. We are no longer told to keep one day holy, we are told that all time is holy...etc...and, I do really like your shirt.


I have one almost like it.......:D

peaceandlove,

janet

Naphal
Jun 18th 2008, 04:39 AM
I mostly agree with ya but it is not the stone law written in our hearts else we'd have to esteem Saturdays over the other days and we don't. We have the spiritual meanings and applications of the law written in our hearts, not limited to just ten either :)





When the stone law is placed in our hearts, a new circumcision occurs, which entails making a change in the law, as the word of God states, and when this is done, love and mercy are therefore added therein, making a necessary "changed heart", wherein the spirit quickens us to a new understanding of what the law entails...we no longer are told to not kill, we are told to not hate, we are no longer told to not commit adultery, we are told to not lust after another man's/woman's spouse. We are no longer told to keep one day holy, we are told that all time is holy...etc...and, I do really like your shirt.


I have one almost like it.......:D

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 18th 2008, 04:55 AM
I mostly agree with ya but it is not the stone law written in our hearts else we'd have to esteem Saturdays over the other days and we don't. We have the spiritual meanings and applications of the law written in our hearts, not limited to just ten either :)

I did not mean that the stone law was actually written as the stone law in our hearts, but that when the law was changed, via the spiritual intent, we are then to serve in newness of the spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. I believe the stone law is a law unto condemnation, and that was it's ONLY purpose, so maybe I worded it wrong?

I do not esteem anyday above another, but God does allow for those whom do, to have that opinion, but, ONLY if they do not try to place it on others...as a command from the Lord.

btw, I am going to go edit my original post to make more sense..lol.


peaceandlove,

janet

manichunter
Jun 18th 2008, 05:22 AM
Mass days of congregational worship are essential. Congregational worship is vital to every believers walk of faith. The Sabbath is more than a day of personal worship, it a day for congregational worship as a holy assembling of the brothers........ Most miss that point regarding the days of worship.. This is not to say that any day can't be a day of congregational worship. You all know people who do not think they have to go to church and worship as a part of a congregation. I got friends who say the TBN is their church and that fellowship at home through the TV.

Heb 10:25 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=heb+10:25&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

1Jo 1:7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+1:7&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Ac 18:4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:4&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Ac 13:42 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+13:42&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

1Co 16:19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+16:19&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

Col 4:15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=col+4:15&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

Naphal
Jun 18th 2008, 05:32 AM
Mass days of congregational worship are essential. Congregational worship is vital to every believers walk of faith. The Sabbath is more than a day of personal worship, it a day for congregational worship as a holy assembling of the brothers........

The Sabbath was intended for household convocation, not public-travel long distances to a big gathering of people. But, as you show from the new testament, it was something Christians should do but not on any certain day.

manichunter
Jun 18th 2008, 05:41 AM
i was just talking about the need for congregational worship and assembly. If seems like that point was not being made......

I am finished with the Sabbath conversation for a while. I am not trying to make anyone celebrate or observe Sabbath. That does not add anything to me or take anything from you....... Praise God if you worship in spirit and truth dear brother. Only God can teach spirit and truth to either of us as we escape our assumptions and lust. Be encouraged.........

manichunter
Jun 18th 2008, 11:35 PM
God does not work through assumptions or suggestions. God is direct to the point when He wants something. People keep giving me speculative and suggestive information. Where does the Scirpture give us the direct command to worship Sunday as the Sabbath. Where is the prophetic witness or shadow of this event. There is none.

The problem is that has become a tradition that has been kept so long that most cannot see anything but it being truth. No one can show clear cut direct commandment of God to do this. Yes they might have met on Sunday, but the Scripture never declared this as the new Sabbath or a Holy Day. They still refer to it as the first day which was the same name it had in the first covenant.

Christians cannot show any Scriptural authority with God's endorsement giving evidence for this change. People defend it with speculation and suggestive hypothesis. That is not the mark of one who wants to know truth. Want of truth says, what does say about this in His Word, not follow suggestive arguements that reinforce assumptions that have no Scriptural evidence as stated by a direct commandment............

Where is the direct command that would provide an endorsement from Scripture..........

Naphal
Jun 18th 2008, 11:50 PM
Where does the Scirpture give us the direct command to worship Sunday as the Sabbath.

There is not nor is anyone saying this. Scripture does say we can esteem any day we wish so we do not have to hold Saturdays up above any other day.


That is not the mark of one who wants to know truth.

And exactly what is it a mark of?

davidandme
Jun 19th 2008, 02:28 AM
Paul is talking about food! Please read the Bible and its context. I guess some people see or want to see the color of the sky purple, no matter what color the sky is.

manichunter
Jun 19th 2008, 02:58 AM
There is not nor is anyone saying this. Scripture does say we can esteem any day we wish so we do not have to hold Saturdays up above any other day.



And exactly what is it a mark of?

Sabbath is not Saturday, it is from sundown on Friday night to sundown on Saturday. I am not against esteeming any day for worship. That is not the case I am pointing out. Just because we can worship any day does not mean the Sabbath has been trash. I simply believe you can have your cake and eat it to in this matter. I have consistently said this through my posts. I still fellowship with a church on Sunday services, no problem. I go visit other churches throught the week to speak or support friends. Its no big deal because it does not add to my salvation, just my experience with Christ. That is why I said that it is not my job to convict or convince anyone, but to sow seeds............

I know if you would go to the next logic question, you would ask yourself the same question I once asked myself. If it is not commanded by Scripture, then when and where did it come from. Not the suggestive and speculative reasons people, but the factual instituting and observance of Sunday and the denouncing of Sabbath. It starts with people that can be clearly researched, it is not hidden knowledge, just not looked into.

The Westminster Confession of 1646
The Heidelberg Catechism of 1563
Justin Martyr
Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689
Eusebuis
Council of Nicene
Constantine
Ignatius
Letter of Barnabas
Epistle of Mathetes
Fiscus Judaicus

Concerning the mark, We are told to
2Co 13:5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2co+13:5&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 1Co 2:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+2:14&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 17:11 - 12These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men.1Ti 2:4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1ti+2:4&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


By default some think and assume they know what is truth and error. Others consider themself learning and coming into the knowledge of truth. One is forward looking and offensive in living and discovering. The other is looking backwards and defensive in living and preserving. New knowledge and revelation threatens one, and knew knowledge and revelation feeds the others. One consider knowledge sacred and logical. The other consider knowledge mutable and mysterious. Basically in the carnal it comes down to the difference between western and eastern thinking, plus the believe limits of the human mind.

Naphal
Jun 19th 2008, 03:57 AM
Sabbath is not Saturday, it is from sundown on Friday night to sundown on Saturday.




And that is Saturday the 7th day biblically speaking.




I am not against esteeming any day for worship. That is not the case I am pointing out. Just because we can worship any day does not mean the Sabbath has been trash.



The Sabbath is not a day of the week for NT Christians. that doesn't mean it's "trash" but it's no longer bound or limited like it used to be.






I simply believe you can have your cake and eat it to in this matter. I have consistently said this through my posts. I still fellowship with a church on Sunday services, no problem. I go visit other churches throught the week to speak or support friends. Its no big deal because it does not add to my salvation, just my experience with Christ.



That's good.





If it is not commanded by Scripture, then when and where did it come from.

It comes from Christ raising from the dead on Sunday. There is no command to worship or rest on any certain day so it's up to us to choose.

manichunter
Jun 19th 2008, 05:11 AM
And that is Saturday the 7th day biblically speaking.
It comes from Christ raising from the dead on Sunday. There is no command to worship or rest on any certain day so it's up to us to choose.

Yes and no, this is one of the areas confusion comes from. 1/4 friday and 3/4 saturday on a lunar calendar. Western cultures normaly use the solar calendar from pagan religions. So a monday can be a tuesday or sunday as you try to aligned the calenders. For instance, it is not a mystery of what day the passover took place in AD 27 on the lunar calendar (it was tuesday/wednesday), hence this is the day of Christ resurrection. However, most try to calculate from the roman solar calender and get it wrong.

Let me get this right, God as our Father has left a few things subject to human abritration and personal perogative as to how we worship and respect Him? We can now make choices in how we love and honor God? It is no longer up to God to define worship and service towards Him?

Naphal
Jun 19th 2008, 05:24 AM
Yes and no, this is one of the areas confusion comes from.

There is no yes and no on this issue. Saturday is the Sabbath and the Sabbath goes from our Friday evening to Saturday evening. Our modern understanding of what is a Friday and what is a Saturday is different from the biblical definition.

jewel4Christ
Jun 19th 2008, 05:27 AM
Let me get this right, God as our Father has left somethings to human abritration as to how we worship Him? We can make choices in how we love and honor God?

Yep, now we get to do it everyday.....:D

peaceandlove,

janet

manichunter
Jun 19th 2008, 06:21 AM
There is no yes and no on this issue. Saturday is the Sabbath and the Sabbath goes from our Friday evening to Saturday evening. Our modern understanding of what is a Friday and what is a Saturday is different from the biblical definition.


Then you already understand this then, no problem, roger that.............

Naphal
Jun 19th 2008, 06:23 AM
Then you already understand this then, no problem, roger that.............


Yes, I do understand this...

Teke
Jun 19th 2008, 09:50 PM
Yes and no, this is one of the areas confusion comes from.

Why the confusion...


1/4 friday and 3/4 saturday on a lunar calendar. Western cultures normaly use the solar calendar from pagan religions.

I see no backing for the opinion the "western cultures normally use the solar calendar from pagan religions".

Most cultures used a lunisolar calendar, like the Hebrew calendar, tracking a tropical (seasonal) year. The "western cultures" used the Julian calendar which also tracked a tropical year. Some still do use this calendar along with the Gregorian. The eastern churches have always used the Julian calendar.




So a monday can be a tuesday or sunday as you try to aligned the calenders. For instance, it is not a mystery of what day the passover took place in AD 27 on the lunar calendar (it was tuesday/wednesday), hence this is the day of Christ resurrection. However, most try to calculate from the roman solar calender and get it wrong.

It would appear from the information I posted, that this information is erroneous.



Let me get this right, God as our Father has left a few things subject to human abritration and personal perogative as to how we worship and respect Him? We can now make choices in how we love and honor God? It is no longer up to God to define worship and service towards Him?


You have the whole OT to read how changes were made. ie. movable tabernacle to fixed tabernacle, movable altar to fixed altar
Who made changes and why etc.........