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Joyfilled
Jun 15th 2008, 02:31 PM
No one can lose his salvation because "a good tree cannot bear bad fruit." The Holy Spirit is the root of the tree and the fruit of the tree can only come from the health of the root. If the root is healthy (the Holy Spirit is always healthy), the fruit will be good.

But trees who have an unhealthy root will wither and die. Since every Christian claims to be born again, then those who think they can lose their salvation think they can bear fruit without looking at the root of the tree. Not so says Jesus. The root of the tree is what determines the health of the tree. But those who know they have the root of the indwelling Holy Spirit know that their fruit can only reflect their root. So since Jesus tells us that not everyone who calls him Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, we can know who these people are by their fruit.

Frances
Jun 15th 2008, 04:50 PM
Alternatively Hebrews 6:4 - 6 speaks of those who are Born Again and filled with the Holy Spirit who 'fall away' (lose their Salvation)
or
2 Peter 3:13 - 18 . . . .(:17)" be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position" (in Christ).

Vhayes
Jun 15th 2008, 04:56 PM
Hebrews 6

4 - For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 - and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 - and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7 - For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 - but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Close to being cursed. Not cursed.

A farmer who has a field that is filled with weeds will burn it off to destroy the roots of everything so it can be planted anew.

To me, that is what these verses are talking about.

Just my thoughts -
V

Buzzword
Jun 15th 2008, 05:59 PM
"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit" unless the tree decides it can walk on its own without keeping its roots planted in the ground.

9Marksfan
Jun 15th 2008, 09:33 PM
"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit" unless the tree decides it can walk on its own without keeping its roots planted in the ground.

And when has that ever happened in the world of horticulture?!?! :lol:

You've been watching LOTR too much!

Joyfilled
Jun 16th 2008, 02:22 AM
Alternatively Hebrews 6:4 - 6 speaks of those who are Born Again and filled with the Holy Spirit who 'fall away' (lose their Salvation)
or
2 Peter 3:13 - 18 . . . .(:17)" be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position" (in Christ).

Sorry, but scripture doesn't contradict itself, so you are not interpreting those passages correctly. Once you realize that there are no contradictions in the bible, then those passages are talking to people who openly claim to be Christians yet have no root. Otherwise, you are claiming that either Jesus was talking about trees or he's wrong, and good trees can bear bad fruit. But since Jesus is never wrong, then it's you who are misinterpreting the bible. :)

Athanasius
Jun 16th 2008, 02:33 AM
Sorry, but scripture doesn't contradict itself, so you are not interpreting those passages correctly. Once you realize that there are no contradictions in the bible, then those passages are talking to people who openly claim to be Christians yet have no root. Otherwise, you are claiming that either Jesus was talking about trees or he's wrong, and good trees can bear bad fruit. But since Jesus is never wrong, then it's you who are misinterpreting the bible. :)

Maybe you're wrong?:hmm:

Sketch
Jun 16th 2008, 02:55 AM
Romans 11:17-21 (NASB)
"But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is nor you who supports the root, but the root that supports you.

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either."



Not making any statement, interpret for yourselves. However, whatever the case, it'd also be just fine to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling."*



-Casey





*(Some of Philippians 2:12 in quotes)
"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." (Phil 2:12-13)

Joyfilled
Jun 16th 2008, 03:36 AM
Maybe you're wrong?:hmm:

Since the bible is God's word, then he bible never contradicts itself because God is never wrong.:)

Joyfilled
Jun 16th 2008, 03:41 AM
Romans 11:17-21 (NASB)
"But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is nor you who supports the root, but the root that supports you.

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either."



Not making any statement, interpret for yourselves. However, whatever the case, it'd also be just fine to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling."*



-Casey





*(Some of Philippians 2:12 in quotes)
"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." (Phil 2:12-13)

And put that together with Philippians 1:4, "He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion."

And 1 Corinthians 1:8, "He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of the Lord."

So again, we have to put scripture together and we get; only those who are born again of the Holy Spirit can't be snatched out of Jesus's hand because God never abandons us. Also, one of the fruits of the Spirit is faith. And as 1 john 4:4 tells us, "the one who is in you is stronger than the one who is in the world.

Athanasius
Jun 16th 2008, 03:57 AM
Since the bible is God's word, then he bible never contradicts itself because God is never wrong.:)

Err...
Maybe you're wrong... In how you're reading the Bible:hmm:

I'm not trying to accuse you of anything; but I don't see why you should suggest Frances is wrong but not consider that you yourself may be wrong. Maybe you're both wrong?

Maybe I'm right? Maybe I'm wrong? Maybe we're all wrong?

RR van Wyk
Jun 16th 2008, 12:10 PM
Don't we all miss the point? Why do Jesus say it in the first place and what would the meaning be?
I believe it's He's way of warning us. In the end of days their is going to be a lot of false profets, and one of the ways to know that their roots are bad is to look at their fruit.
So who do we trust? The people with good fruit... good fruit=good and sincere intensions, true faith and the work of the Holy Spirit.

Joyfilled
Jun 16th 2008, 01:15 PM
Err...
Maybe you're wrong... In how you're reading the Bible:hmm:

I'm not trying to accuse you of anything; but I don't see why you should suggest Frances is wrong but not consider that you yourself may be wrong. Maybe you're both wrong?

Maybe I'm right? Maybe I'm wrong? Maybe we're all wrong?

Sorry, but all one needs is a basic understanding of word vocabulary and grammar to understand what that passage or any passage in the bible means. But what Satan does is try to re-define simple words like "is", "a", "cannot" "good" tree" in order to twist meanings into their opposite. I don't do that because Paul tells us not to quibble about words. If we do, we can re-write the bible to make it say anything that itching ear want to hear.

So as Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 11:19, "No doubt there have to be divisions among you to show which of you has God's approval. " Those who have God's approval don't have to re-define simple words that we all learned in elementary school. Those who don't believe the bible, do have to try to re-define simple words like "is" because they don't like what the bible says. So if one doesn't understand the simple words in that passage, then he has no chance of understanding the spiritual truths underneath them. One cannot follow someone he doesn't believe or understand.

But according to your reasoning, then every denomination is right because they can change the bible to make it say anything he wants it to say; thus there would be no false teachers, which is of course, untrue. So all one has to do is believe the simple words in the bible instead of changing them around to make them say the opposite.

faithfulfriend
Jun 16th 2008, 02:15 PM
No one can lose his salvation

I trust this will help you see God's truth concerning the doctrine of "Once in grace, always in grace"

I. Parables that show the possibility of falling from grace.
1. The sower and the seed (or the soil). Matthew 13:1-23; especially verses 20-21: Mt 13:20-21 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. Also Luke 8:4-15; especially verse 13: Lu 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Note that Matthew has that they “endured” (were saved) for a time, then were offended. Luke has that many believed for a time, then fell away.

2. The vine and the branches (John 15:1-8). Note verse two: Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Branches that are in Christ (new creatures II Cor. 5:17) are “taken away” (cut off) if they do not bear fruit. Same thought in verse six: Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

3. The lost sheep (Matthew 18:12-14). This sheep was once with the shepherd (Christ) but strayed away from Christ, then was brought back. The argument that this sheep was still secure because it was still a sheep is invalid. In this parable the saved are represented by the sheep in the fold. The unsaved (lost) are represented by the sheep that is lost. Once it was saved, then lost.

4. The fruitless tree (Luke 13:6-9), teaches exactly the same truth as the fruitless branch of John 15.

5. The five foolish virgins (Matthew 25:1-13). These virgins had lights (were saved) but these lights went out. They were rejected.

II. Some did backslide.
1. Peter (Matthew 26:69-75). He denied Christ. Luke 22:32 teaches that Peter had a second conversion following his defection: Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

2. Judas. Judas was given the same power as the other apostles. Had he not been a Christian, this would have been impossible. Judas fell (ceased to be in grace) through transgression. Acts 1:25: That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.The Bible does not say he was a devil from the beginning. In John 6:70, Judas is called a devil (opposer) just like Peter is called Satan (opposer) in Matthew 16:23.

3. Hymaenaeus and Alexander. I Timothy 1:19-20: Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

III. Apostasy is shown to be possible.
1. Ezekiel 33:18: When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. This is a prophecy of the gospel dispensation.

2. Romans 11:20-21: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Christians can be cut off.

3. I Corinthians 8:11: And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? It is possible for a weak brother to PERISH through our uncharitable activities.

4. I Corinthians 9:27: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. As great as Paul was, he knew he could still be lost.

5. I Corinthians 10:12: Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. An admonition showing the possibility of apostacy.

6. Galatians 5:4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. People can “fall from grace.”

7. I Thessalonians 3:5: For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain. If these failed under temptations, Paul’s labors in getting them saved would be wasted labor.

8. I Timothy 5:11-12: But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. Those who cast off their first faith are damned.

9. Hebrews 3:6, 12, 14:
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Admonitions showing the possibility of falling.

10. Hebrews 4:11: Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. We can fall just as the Israelites did.

11. Hebrews 6:4-6: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. These passages very strongly show the possibility of final and complete apostasy, as well as backsliding. (As well as Hebrews 10:26-39)

12. Hebrews 12:15: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; It is possible for one to fail (lack) the grace of God after having had it at one time.

13. James 5:19-20: Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. People who have departed from the truth require a second conversion experience.

14. II Peter 1:10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: An admonition to avoid falling from grace.

15. II Peter 2:20-22: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. A strong statement showing how apostasy can come.

16. Revelation 3:14-16: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. God will not tolerate unwholesome conditions.

Athanasius
Jun 16th 2008, 02:50 PM
Sorry, but all one needs is a basic understanding of word vocabulary and grammar to understand what that passage or any passage in the bible means. But what Satan does is try to re-define simple words like "is", "a", "cannot" "good" tree" in order to twist meanings into their opposite. I don't do that because Paul tells us not to quibble about words. If we do, we can re-write the bible to make it say anything that itching ear want to hear.

So as Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 11:19, "No doubt there have to be divisions among you to show which of you has God's approval. " Those who have God's approval don't have to re-define simple words that we all learned in elementary school. Those who don't believe the bible, do have to try to re-define simple words like "is" because they don't like what the bible says. So if one doesn't understand the simple words in that passage, then he has no chance of understanding the spiritual truths underneath them. One cannot follow someone he doesn't believe or understand.

But according to your reasoning, then every denomination is right because they can change the bible to make it say anything he wants it to say; thus there would be no false teachers, which is of course, untrue. So all one has to do is believe the simple words in the bible instead of changing them around to make them say the opposite.

Alright, but I never came in here disagreeing with your interpretation. I simply pointed out that you believe wholeheartedly that you're correct and everyone else is wrong. So much so that you would never consider yourself wrong; it must be everyone else, and they must be wrong because they're interpreting scripture in accordance with Satan! Of course, you have the true™ interpretation.

Nothing I've said in this thread would allow everyone denomination to be right. All I've said was, "maybe you're wrong :dunno:" The only reason I brought it up is because that's how you're replying to everyone. I don't mean to be rude.

Sketch
Jun 16th 2008, 03:44 PM
Faithful Friend just made the best argument against your case that I believe could have possibly been made.



Xel'Naga spoke to you a sound mindset for a Christian who has humility, and you have done nothing but reject it and become defensive.



I have pointed these things out so that you know they are not alone in their mentality towards you, and I agree with each one of them (Whether or not they agree with each other is beyond me). It's easy for each one of us to be certain and sure that our interpretation is correct, feeling like God is behind us, backing us up saying, "Yeah! That's EXACTLY what I meant!"

My real question is, where is the love in this argument, joyfilled? If we argue for the sake of Christ and the Gospel, and don't have love... what have we become?



-Casey

Frances
Jun 16th 2008, 04:21 PM
A farmer who has a field that is filled with weeds will burn it off to destroy the roots of everything so it can be planted anew.


Actually (speaking as a retired farmer) fields are burned to destroy the rubbish, eg. in strawberry fields, but the roots are not damaged and will send up new growth in the spring. If the last crop was wheat/corn/oats etc. the roots are killed when the ground is ploughed ready for the new crop.

good and useful post faithful friend.

Christiana
Jun 16th 2008, 05:26 PM
I trust this will help you see God's truth concerning the doctrine of "Once in grace, always in grace"

I. Parables that show the possibility of falling from grace.
1. The sower and the seed (or the soil). Matthew 13:1-23; especially verses 20-21: Mt 13:20-21 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. Also Luke 8:4-15; especially verse 13: Lu 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Note that Matthew has that they “endured” (were saved) for a time, then were offended. Luke has that many believed for a time, then fell away.

2. The vine and the branches (John 15:1-8). Note verse two: Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Branches that are in Christ (new creatures II Cor. 5:17) are “taken away” (cut off) if they do not bear fruit. Same thought in verse six: Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

3. The lost sheep (Matthew 18:12-14). This sheep was once with the shepherd (Christ) but strayed away from Christ, then was brought back. The argument that this sheep was still secure because it was still a sheep is invalid. In this parable the saved are represented by the sheep in the fold. The unsaved (lost) are represented by the sheep that is lost. Once it was saved, then lost.

4. The fruitless tree (Luke 13:6-9), teaches exactly the same truth as the fruitless branch of John 15.

5. The five foolish virgins (Matthew 25:1-13). These virgins had lights (were saved) but these lights went out. They were rejected.

II. Some did backslide.
1. Peter (Matthew 26:69-75). He denied Christ. Luke 22:32 teaches that Peter had a second conversion following his defection: Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

2. Judas. Judas was given the same power as the other apostles. Had he not been a Christian, this would have been impossible. Judas fell (ceased to be in grace) through transgression. Acts 1:25: That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.The Bible does not say he was a devil from the beginning. In John 6:70, Judas is called a devil (opposer) just like Peter is called Satan (opposer) in Matthew 16:23.

3. Hymaenaeus and Alexander. I Timothy 1:19-20: Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

III. Apostasy is shown to be possible.
1. Ezekiel 33:18: When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. This is a prophecy of the gospel dispensation.

2. Romans 11:20-21: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Christians can be cut off.

3. I Corinthians 8:11: And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? It is possible for a weak brother to PERISH through our uncharitable activities.

4. I Corinthians 9:27: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. As great as Paul was, he knew he could still be lost.

5. I Corinthians 10:12: Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. An admonition showing the possibility of apostacy.

6. Galatians 5:4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. People can “fall from grace.”

7. I Thessalonians 3:5: For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain. If these failed under temptations, Paul’s labors in getting them saved would be wasted labor.

8. I Timothy 5:11-12: But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. Those who cast off their first faith are damned.

9. Hebrews 3:6, 12, 14:
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Admonitions showing the possibility of falling.

10. Hebrews 4:11: Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. We can fall just as the Israelites did.

11. Hebrews 6:4-6: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. These passages very strongly show the possibility of final and complete apostasy, as well as backsliding. (As well as Hebrews 10:26-39)

12. Hebrews 12:15: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; It is possible for one to fail (lack) the grace of God after having had it at one time.

13. James 5:19-20: Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. People who have departed from the truth require a second conversion experience.

14. II Peter 1:10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: An admonition to avoid falling from grace.

15. II Peter 2:20-22: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. A strong statement showing how apostasy can come.

16. Revelation 3:14-16: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. God will not tolerate unwholesome conditions.


'All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.' John 6:36-39




28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:28 (KJV)

I think these scriptures are quite revealing as to the Once Saved, Always saved belief. Especially when combined with Roman's 8.

1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25. But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Those who are genuinely in Christ, can not "fall away". In order to do so, they would have to have only "proclaimed" to be a follower with no recognition from the Father. Yes they can stumble but remain down? No. The answer to this is if they don't believe yet stood as they did, then they were never Believers. Plain & simple.

God bless.

faithfulfriend
Jun 16th 2008, 05:40 PM
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:28 (KJV)

You're exactly right! Nothing can pluck me out of His hand. This is a wonderful promise, but the promise is conditional on obedience. All promises are based on the condition of obedience. Paul states in Hebrews 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

Certainly no external force or person can take us from Christ. Only through rebellion (sin) will we be removed from him. Sin and iniquity do separate from God. An example:

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.



35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.[quote/]


Only sin will separate from God. We voluntarily accepted Christ. We can reject Christ by another volitional act. Only by this means can one be separated from Christ. But if he sins, this will separate him from Christ.

If I am incorrect, please take each scripture I gave and show how I am wrong. Instead of running to another verse that supposedly "contradicts" what I have presented, shouldn't we deal with the issue at hand? The issue at hand are the scriptures I presented. Take time and read through each scripture carefully. If you're right and I'm wrong, then all of the verses I presented are contradicting what you are saying, and vice versa. We both know the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

Christiana
Jun 16th 2008, 05:54 PM
You're exactly right! Nothing can pluck me out of His hand. This is a wonderful promise, but the promise is conditional on obedience. All promises are based on the condition of obedience. Paul states in Hebrews 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

Certainly no external force or person can take us from Christ. Only through rebellion (sin) will we be removed from him. Sin and iniquity do separate from God. An example:

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.



Only sin will separate from God. We voluntarily accepted Christ. We can reject Christ by another volitional act. Only by this means can one be separated from Christ. But if he sins, this will separate him from Christ.

If I am incorrect, please take each scripture I gave and show how I am wrong. Instead of running to another verse that supposedly "contradicts" what I have presented, shouldn't we deal with the issue at hand? The issue at hand are the scriptures I presented. Take time and read through each scripture carefully. If you're right and I'm wrong, then all of the verses I presented are contradicting what you are saying, and vice versa. We both know the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

I agree, in full, that it is in obedience in Christ. I believe that not all that believe they are Christian, truly are. Sadly, I've seen far too many not understand what being a Christian truly is nor do they take the time to know.:(I still believe that God calls His own to Him & no one can or thing can destroy it. It's those that are not called that fall away. They weren't rooted in Him. I still believe this falls in to the OSAS position because those that are truly God's (in full love & obedience) do not leave Christ. I don't believe it to be, ok, I confessed I'm a Christian, now I'm saved (& live however they want). They have to walk in obedience, though they may stumble, God is always there to make their paths straight again.

Does that speak my message clearly? DH kept calling me on the phone, as I was posting the prior post. So sorry about that.

Love in Christ.

faithfulfriend
Jun 16th 2008, 05:57 PM
I agree, in full, that it is in obedience in Christ. I believe that not all that believe they are Christian, truly are. Sadly, I've seen far too many not understand what being a Christian truly is nor do they take the time to know.:(I still believe that God calls His own to Him & no one can or thing can destroy it. It's those that are not called that fall away. They weren't rooted in Him. I still believe this falls in to the OSAS position because those that are truly God's (in full love & obedience) do not leave Christ. I don't believe it to be, ok, I confessed I'm a Christian, now I'm saved (& live however they want). They have to walk in obedience, though they may stumble, God is always there to make their paths straight again.

Does that speak my message clearly? DH kept calling me on the phone, as I was posting the prior post. So sorry about that.

Love in Christ.

I understand completely what you are saying. But what you're saying doesn't line up with the scriptures that I have presented in post #14. As I have stated previously, the scriptures you posted in Romans 8 and others supposedly "contradict" one another. Therefore only you're right, I'm right, or we're both wrong.

This is why I suggested for you (or anyone else for that matter) to take the scriptures I have presented and explain how each one is not doctrinally correct/sound.

Christiana
Jun 16th 2008, 06:04 PM
I understand completely what you are saying. But what you're saying doesn't line up with the scriptures that I have presented in post #14. As I have stated previously, the scriptures you posted in Romans 8 and others supposedly "contradict" one another. Therefore only you're right, I'm right, or we're both wrong.

This is why I suggested for you (or anyone else for that matter) to take the scriptures I have presented and explain how each one is not doctrinally correct/sound.

I will look them over when I have more time, Faithful Friend. I haven't yet compared them in full. I do have an appointment so give me a day or so, k? I live rurally & will be gone all day.:)

faithfulfriend
Jun 16th 2008, 06:06 PM
I will look them over when I have more time, Faithful Friend. I haven't yet compared them in full. I do have an appointment so give me a day or so, k? I live rurally & will be gone all day.:)

By all means take you're time. I didn't mean to come across as demanding or anything. Take as long as you like. I know everyone's schedule can be very hectic at times, or all the time. :D

9Marksfan
Jun 16th 2008, 06:07 PM
I understand completely what you are saying. But what you're saying doesn't line up with the scriptures that I have presented in post #14. As I have stated previously, the scriptures you posted in Romans 8 and others supposedly "contradict" one another. Therefore only you're right, I'm right, or we're both wrong.

This is why I suggested for you (or anyone else for that matter) to take the scriptures I have presented and explain how each one is not doctrinally correct/sound.

I would love nothing more than to do that, faithfulfriend, however I won't be able to do so until much later tonight (it's 7pm here in the UK) - and I also don't want to butt in on Joyfilled's opportunity to reply. But, in brief, I believe that Joyfilled and Christiana are absolutely Scriptural in their understanding and that you are imposing your free will semi-Pelagianism/Arminianism on to the Scriptures. Everything becomes clear once you accept that the VISIBLE church on Earth is NOT made up exclusively of Christians (something presumably that we would all accept!). Once THAT is accepted, ALL these verses fit into place - even the ones you have cited!

Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 02:39 AM
You're exactly right! Nothing can pluck me out of His hand. This is a wonderful promise, but the promise is conditional on obedience. All promises are based on the condition of obedience. Paul states in Hebrews 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

Certainly no external force or person can take us from Christ. Only through rebellion (sin) will we be removed from him. Sin and iniquity do separate from God. An example:

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.



Only sin will separate from God. We voluntarily accepted Christ. We can reject Christ by another volitional act. Only by this means can one be separated from Christ. But if he sins, this will separate him from Christ.

If I am incorrect, please take each scripture I gave and show how I am wrong. Instead of running to another verse that supposedly "contradicts" what I have presented, shouldn't we deal with the issue at hand? The issue at hand are the scriptures I presented. Take time and read through each scripture carefully. If you're right and I'm wrong, then all of the verses I presented are contradicting what you are saying, and vice versa. We both know the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

1 Corinthians 1:8, Philippians 1:4, and 2;13, 1 John 4:4, 1 John 3:9, Romans 8:1, and 8:9, John 10:27-29, Romans 3:11, Matthew 7:18, Jude 24, Romans 8:38 contradict your interpretation, for starters. :)

So once again, you have to reconcile all scripture together, not find interpretations that contradict other scripture. And so far you haven't done that. so try again. :)

faithfulfriend
Jun 17th 2008, 02:51 AM
1 Corinthians 1:8, Philippians 1:4, and 2;13, 1 John 4:4, 1 John 3:9, Romans 8:1, and 8:9, John 10:27-29, Romans 3:11, Matthew 7:18, Jude 24, Romans 8:38 contradict your interpretation, for starters. :)

So once again, you have to reconcile all scripture together, not find interpretations that contradict other scripture. And so far you haven't done that. so try again. :)

That's exactly what I did. Reconcile all the scriptures. The scriptures you just presented still don't refute the ones I have presented, nor the parables that I have presented.

By Faith
Jun 17th 2008, 03:02 AM
Technically I believe you are both right joyfilled and france.

1. France it is called Apostasy :) Heb 6:4-6
Joyfilled I think the part of the scripture that you should pay close attention to is the part where it clearly identifies that this person has receieved the Holy Spirit, which means they have rece salvation. But they backslid they turned away from God with all there knowledge. What they have truly done is re cruicify Christ and if we believe as Christians we can force God to watch His only begotten son be hung on a cross and made a mockery of again (heb 6:6)than that is insane. There was a previous post asking why did God kill so many people...well God does not deal with this kind of thing lightly.
Another Point that would show us this is Satan who is the original apostate. He fell from God's grace and He kicked him out of Heaven so it can happen.
2. Repentance is to change your attitude towards God so that you can walk with Him...Here God is denying repentance. That is a horrible thing. In these days most preachers preach about love love love but John the forerunner of Christ preached repentance so did Jesus. We need to be preaching about repentance. People choose to look over this because it is harsh but this is the truth. God don't take no mess. It is the cold hard truth and this is why we FEAR God. Look the last time His only begotten Son got mad he flipped over tables and started whipping folks.

Now about the fruit...as we read the bible it is important to know 1. who is talking 2. Is this a letter or a gospel 3. If it is a letter who is it to and why. Now if it is a gospel what is this parable about what was the chapter before and after about to better understand who this parable pretains to.

So Matt 21:18 Jesus was talking about trying to get the disciples to understand Faith.
Luike 6:43 What Jesus is saying if you do good you produce good but if you do bad than you produce bad, but He didn't say you couldn't change between the two, so there is no contradiction there. This is a parable about the Heart. What is in your heart. If you are an apostate than obviously you will produce bad things if you are a true believer get ready for the abundantly. But just make sure we realize he never said you can't switch from good or bad. He was simply telling them what you will produce if you do one or the other.

Meat for your spiritual Diet:
You could take Luke 6:43 and cross ref it with Romans 10:10...This will tell you what the heart should be like in order to have a proper confession.

Hope this helps: May God bless you with the abundantly

Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 01:37 PM
That's exactly what I did. Reconcile all the scriptures. The scriptures you just presented still don't refute the ones I have presented, nor the parables that I have presented.

No, you said that we voluntarily accept Christ which is untrue by the scriptures I presented and more. Most of the OT Holy people tried to resist God. Moses said; "Who am I Lord?" Jonah tried to run away from God's calling. Jeremiah said he was too much of a child, God had to break Jacob's hips, Paul was rounding up Christians for slaughter, all the disciples abandoned Jesus at the cross. It was only when the power of the Holy Spirit overcame those people that they could follow Jesus as Ezekiel 36:27 says; "And I will put my spirit in you and I will move you to follow my decrees and obey my laws."

Romans 3:11 says; "There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God."

So accepting Christ is as voluntary as some healing you of blindness which isn't voluntarily at all.:rolleyes:

So why do so many people want to take credit for God's work in them? :confused Do you really think that you are that righteous? :confused God says no and he is right.

Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 01:44 PM
Technically I believe you are both right joyfilled and france.

1. France it is called Apostasy :) Heb 6:4-6
Joyfilled I think the part of the scripture that you should pay close attention to is the part where it clearly identifies that this person has receieved the Holy Spirit, which means they have rece salvation. But they backslid they turned away from God with all there knowledge. What they have truly done is re cruicify Christ and if we believe as Christians we can force God to watch His only begotten son be hung on a cross and made a mockery of again (heb 6:6)than that is insane. There was a previous post asking why did God kill so many people...well God does not deal with this kind of thing lightly.
Another Point that would show us this is Satan who is the original apostate. He fell from God's grace and He kicked him out of Heaven so it can happen.
2. Repentance is to change your attitude towards God so that you can walk with Him...Here God is denying repentance. That is a horrible thing. In these days most preachers preach about love love love but John the forerunner of Christ preached repentance so did Jesus. We need to be preaching about repentance. People choose to look over this because it is harsh but this is the truth. God don't take no mess. It is the cold hard truth and this is why we FEAR God. Look the last time His only begotten Son got mad he flipped over tables and started whipping folks.

Now about the fruit...as we read the bible it is important to know 1. who is talking 2. Is this a letter or a gospel 3. If it is a letter who is it to and why. Now if it is a gospel what is this parable about what was the chapter before and after about to better understand who this parable pretains to.

So Matt 21:18 Jesus was talking about trying to get the disciples to understand Faith.
Luike 6:43 What Jesus is saying if you do good you produce good but if you do bad than you produce bad, but He didn't say you couldn't change between the two, so there is no contradiction there. This is a parable about the Heart. What is in your heart. If you are an apostate than obviously you will produce bad things if you are a true believer get ready for the abundantly. But just make sure we realize he never said you can't switch from good or bad. He was simply telling them what you will produce if you do one or the other.

Meat for your spiritual Diet:
You could take Luke 6:43 and cross ref it with Romans 10:10...This will tell you what the heart should be like in order to have a proper confession.

Hope this helps: May God bless you with the abundantly

Sorry, but you are again disagreeing with Romans 8:9, 1 Corinthians 1:8, Jude 24, 1 John 4:4, 1 John 3:9, and more. Once God delivers us of a sin, it is gone. So people don't backslide. Once we receive the Holy Spirit, that's just the beginning of the work that God will do in us.

But unfortunately, too many people think that once a person receives the Holy Spirit he's automatically as perfect as God. :o Not so.

So all you have to do is believe that "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit" and you will then rely on the root of the tree for the health of the fruit instead of believing that you can bear good fruit by being separate from the vine.

It really doesn't appear that too many people here believe that the health of the fruit comes from the root of the tree like Jesus says it does. But you're wrong. So look to the root of the tree for strength, not your own effort apart from the root.

faithfulfriend
Jun 17th 2008, 01:59 PM
No, you said that we voluntarily accept Christ which is untrue by the scriptures I presented and more. Most of the OT Holy people tried to resist God. Moses said; "Who am I Lord?" Jonah tried to run away from God's calling. Jeremiah said he was too much of a child, God had to break Jacob's hips, Paul was rounding up Christians for slaughter, all the disciples abandoned Jesus at the cross. It was only when the power of the Holy Spirit overcame those people that they could follow Jesus as Ezekiel 36:27 says; "And I will put my spirit in you and I will move you to follow my decrees and obey my laws." Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

I don't know what version you're using, but this is what the KJV says.


Romans 3:11 says; "There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God."


So accepting Christ is as voluntary as some healing you of blindness which isn't voluntarily at all.:rolleyes:Yes it is. Nobody is forced to accept him. Notice here:

Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

To understand Romans 3 you must understand who is talking to who.

Romans 3:11 says; "There is no one who understands," - An explanation below:

Ps 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.God is represented as looking down from heaven to see, that is, to make investigation, whether there were any that understood or sought after him.
God, the Searcher of hearts, is represented as making investigation on this very point, he looks down from heaven for this very purpose, to ascertain whether there were any righteous. In the Hebrew it is not asserted, though it is clearly and strongly implied, that none such were found. That fact the apostle states. If, as the result of such an investigation, none were found; if God did not specify that there were any such; then it follows that there were none. For none could escape the notice of his eye; and if there had been any, the benevolence of his heart would have led him to record it. To understand is used in the sense of being wise; or of having such a state of moral feeling as to dispose them to serve and obey God. The word is often used in the Bible, not to denote a mere intellectual operation of the mind, but the state of the heart inclining the mind to obey and worship God, (Scriptures below) "Lest they should understand with their heart"

Ps 107:43 Whoso is wise, and will observe these things, even they shall understand the lovingkindness of the LORD.

Pr 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Romans 3:11 says: "no one who seeks God." - An explanation:

That endeavours to know and do his will, and to be acquainted with his character. A disposition not to seek after God, that is, to neglect and forget him, is one of the most decided proofs of depravity. A righteous man counts it his highest privilege and honour to know God, and to understand his will. A man can indulge in wickedness only by forgetting God. Hence a disposition not to seek God is full proof of depravity.

Take a look at the group of people Paul is talking to, and what he is saying about them. He is giving THEIR testimony, NOT MINE!!!!!

Ro 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Is this your testimony?

Ro 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

Is this your testimony? I certainly hope not! Is your throat an open sepulchre that has a tongue of deceit?

Ro 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

Is your mouth full of cursing and bitterness? I certainly hope not.

Ro 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

Is it your testimony to shed blood?

Ro 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

Is destruction and misery YOUR ways?

Ro 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:

Do you not know the way of peace?

Ro 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Is there no fear of God before your eyes? Is that truly your testimony?


So why do so many people want to take credit for God's work in them? :confused Do you really think that you are that righteous? :confused God says no and he is right.I'm not taking credit for anything about myself or my life. To God be the glory, and only God. Php 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

faithfulfriend
Jun 17th 2008, 02:07 PM
So people don't backslide.

People don't backslide????

II. Some did backslide.
1. Peter (Matthew 26:69-75). He denied Christ, cursed, lied. One who does these things cannot be a Christian. Luke 22:32 teaches that Peter had a second conversion following his defection: Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

2. Judas. Judas was given the same power as the other apostles. Had he not been a Christian, this would have been impossible. Judas fell (ceased to be in grace) through transgression. Acts 1:25: That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.The Bible does not say he was a devil from the beginning. In John 6:70, Judas is called a devil (opposer) just like Peter is called Satan (opposer) in Matthew 16:23.

3. Hymaenaeus and Alexander. I Timothy 1:19-20: Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

The Bible teaches in II Peter 2:20: "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." Then verse 21 states: "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

Also James 5:19-20 " Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 02:15 PM
People don't backslide????

II. Some did backslide.
1. Peter (Matthew 26:69-75). He denied Christ, cursed, lied. One who does these things cannot be a Christian. Luke 22:32 teaches that Peter had a second conversion following his defection: Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

2. Judas. Judas was given the same power as the other apostles. Had he not been a Christian, this would have been impossible. Judas fell (ceased to be in grace) through transgression. Acts 1:25: That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.The Bible does not say he was a devil from the beginning. In John 6:70, Judas is called a devil (opposer) just like Peter is called Satan (opposer) in Matthew 16:23.

3. Hymaenaeus and Alexander. I Timothy 1:19-20: Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

The Bible teaches in II Peter 2:20: "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." Then verse 21 states: "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

Also James 5:19-20 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Sorry, but Peter didn't have the indwelling Holy Spirit at the cross. He only received his after Jesus resurrected. There was a reason for that; if Peter had not denied Christ, he would have been killed along with Jesus which wasn't in God's will for many reasons. So no, Peter did not backslide since he didn't have enough faith in Jesus until Jesus blew on him.

Judas was doomed from the beginning. So please read John 6:64-65 to see that Judas's heart was always hard. Do Judas was already a wolf disguised as a sheep and only responded from where he's always been.

The NT is simply there to show us what God wants for us. And all born again Christians will be moved by the Spirit to follow God as Ezekiel 36:27 & Romans 8:9 tell us. The indwelling Holy Spirit inside of us makes it way too uncomfortable to keep on sinning as this passage explains:

1 john 3:9, "No one born of God continues to sin, indeed he cannot go on sinning because God's seed remains in him."

So again, you need to put all scripture together and come up with an interpretation that doesn't contradict any scripture. Only then will it be the right interpretation. :)

faithfulfriend
Jun 17th 2008, 02:26 PM
Judas was doomed from the beginning. So pelase read John 6:64-65 to see that Judas's heart was always hard. Do Judas was already a wolf disguised as a sheep and only responded from where he's always been.

God knows all things, and he knows the future. If he did NOT know the future, then he would not be God now would he? Foreknowledge of the future is an attribute of Almighty God, if it wasn't an attribute of Him, he would cease to be God. This scripture does not mean that Judas didn't have a choice, he did have a choice. But God knew what his decision was already going to be, because God knows EVERYTHING.

Jos 24:15 ¶ And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

We have the option to follow God or not. We have the choice, we are not robots.



The NT is simply there to show us what God wants for us. ANd all born again Christians will be moved by the Spirit to follow God.

So again, you need to believe 1 john 3:9, "No one born of God continues to sin, indeed he cannot go on sinning because God's seed remains in him."

So again, you need to put all scripture together and come up with an interpretation that doesn't contradict any scripture. Only then will it be the right interpretation. :)I John 3:9 is absolutely correct. I don't disagree with that.

Let me ask you, is committing sin a choice?

Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 02:42 PM
God knows all things, and he knows the future. If he did NOT know the future, then he would not be God now would he? Foreknowledge of the future is an attribute of Almighty God, if it wasn't an attribute of Him, he would cease to be God. This scripture does not mean that Judas didn't have a choice, he did have a choice. But God knew what his decision was already going to be, because God knows EVERYTHING.

Jos 24:15 ¶ And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

We have the option to follow God or not. We have the choice, we are not robots.

I John 3:9 is absolutely correct. I don't disagree with that.

Let me ask you, is committing sin a choice?

No, it is not a choice at all. Please read Romans 7:13-25 & 1:18-26, particularly verse 24, to see why. We were all born in sin and of course didn't choose to be. We are all slaves to sin from which only the power of the Holy Spirit can free us. Only Christ has victory over Satan. Those who think that sin is a choice have no need for Christ's death on the cross. They can simply choose to be perfect on their own, which of course, is impossible.

faithfulfriend
Jun 17th 2008, 02:43 PM
No, it is not a choice at all. Please read Romans 7:13-25 & 1:18-26 to see why. We were all born in sin and of course didn't choose to be. We are all slaves to sin from which only the power of the Holy Spirit can free us. Only Christ has victory over Satan. Those who think that sin is a choice have no need for Christ's death on the cross. It would then have no meaning whatsoever.

Just to be sure I'm understanding you correctly.

You believe in predestination and Once saved always saved correct? If so, I have some questions that I will be presenting to you and others that I would like answered if at all possible.

Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 02:49 PM
Just to be sure I'm understanding you correctly.

You believe in predestination and Once saved always saved correct? If so, I have some questions that I will be presenting to you and others that I would like answered if at all possible.

Yup. That's what the bible says all over the place. "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet I tell you that not one of them falls to the ground apart from the will of my Father." :)

faithfulfriend
Jun 17th 2008, 02:51 PM
Yup. That's what the bible says all over the place. "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet I tell you that not one of them falls to the ground apart from the will of my Father." :)

Some questions concerning the Calvinistic view of predestination:

Some questions I would like answered:

If we are “predestined” as you believe “predestination” to be, why does the Bible say God is no respecter of persons?

Ac 10:34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Ro 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

If we are “predestined”, why does God not will that any should perish?

Tit 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

1Ti 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

If I am predestined, why should I be worried about the devil?

1Pe 5:8 ¶ Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

If I am predestined, and end up in Hell, am I then justified to blame God for my eternal home?

Also nobody has yet to explain how the scriptures in post #14 aren’t true. I have come to find that some in this thread are taking away the word “IF” from the Bible scriptures, as if to say that we do not have a choice. There are tons of verses in the Bible that prove otherwise, if anyone is interested I can take the time to show them to you.

Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 03:03 PM
Some questions concerning the Calvinistic view of predestination:

Some questions I would like answered:

If we are “predestined” as you believe “predestination” to be, why does the Bible say God is no respecter of persons?

Ac 10:34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Ro 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

If we are “predestined”, why does God not will that any should perish?

Tit 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

1Ti 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

If I am predestined, why should I be worried about the devil?

1Pe 5:8 ¶ Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

If I am predestined, and end up in Hell, am I then justified to blame God for my eternal home?

Also nobody has yet to explain how the scriptures in post #14 aren’t true. I have come to find that some in this thread are taking away the word “IF” from the Bible scriptures, as if to say that we do not have a choice. There are tons of verses in the Bible that prove otherwise, if anyone is interested I can take the time to show them to you.

The whole key is that none of us knows if we are being drawn by God or not, only God knows that. So all of us are without excuse.:)

Of course God wants all to be saved just like all parents want our children to do the right thing! But like parents, God knows that each of us has to accept personal accountability for our actions so that we can come to our own understanding of why we need him. That's why God binds us all over to disobedience so he can have mercy on us. But only God knows each person's heart so only He can decide which ones he knows, just like an employer has the right to hire and fire whomever he pleases as Jesus explains in Matthew 20. So read and believe Romans 9:11-25 and you'll have no problem.

Once again, the NT is simply showing us what God wants for us. The true born again Christians will take it to heart, the wolves in sheep's clothing will eventually turn away. That's all those verses you quoted are telling us. :) That is also the only interpretation that reconciles all scripture together, not just takes verses out of context. :)

faithfulfriend
Jun 17th 2008, 03:37 PM
The whole key is that none of us knows if we are being drawn by God or not, only God knows that. So all of us are without excuse.:)

Of course God wants all to be saved just like all parents want our children to do the right thing! But like parents, God knows that each of us has to accept personal accountability for our actions so that we can come to our own understanding of why we need him. That's why God binds us all over to disobedience so he can have mercy on us. But only God knows each person's heart so only He can decide which ones he knows, just like an employer has the right to hire and fire whomever he pleases as Jesus explains in Matthew 20. So read and believe Romans 9:11-25 and you'll have no problem.

Once again, the NT is simply showing us what God wants for us. The true born again Christians will take it to heart, the wolves in sheep's clothing will eventually turn away. That's all those verses you quoted are telling us. :) That is also the only interpretation that reconciles all scripture together, not just takes verses out of context. :)

You didn't exactly answer my questions.....

Another question would be if we are predestined before we are even born, then who did Christ die for? Did he die for all mankind that they might be redeemed, or did he die for a select few?

Also, why does the Bible teach repent or perish if the non-elect can't repent and the elect can't perish?

Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 03:59 PM
You didn't exactly answer my questions.....

Another question would be if we are predestined before we are even born, then who did Christ die for? Did he die for all mankind that they might be redeemed, or did he die for a select few?

Also, why does the Bible teach repent or perish if the non-elect can't repent and the elect can't perish?

First of all, no elect person wouldn't repent as 1 John 3:9 tells us.

Second of all, God makes it crystal clear in Romans 9:11 that He does the choosing before we were born as does Ephesians 1:4. He does that to show that it is not by man's own effort or even desire but by God's mercy alone. If it were man's choice, then every man would think that he deserves heaven. :rofl:Most atheists think they do. So man isn't qualified to determine who goes to heaven and hell because we aren't honest enough to do so. Therefore only God is qualified to choose who gets saved and who doesn't. ;)
Jesus died for all, for many and for few. That means that he died for every man who wants it which will be many. It also means that salvation is now open to all men, not just the Jews. But compared to those who don't want it, we will be few. All one has to do is go to an atheist forum to see that they are proud of rejecting God. So once again, that reconciles all scripture together instead of making scripture contradict itself. :)

faithfulfriend
Jun 17th 2008, 04:11 PM
First of all, no elect person wouldn't repent as 1 John 3:9 tells us.

Second of all, God makes it crystal clear in Romans 9:11 that He does the choosing before we were born as does Ephesians 1:4. He does that to show that it is not by man's own effort or even desire but by God's mercy alone. If it were man's choice, then every man would think that he deserves heaven. :rofl:Most atheists think they do. So man isn't qualified to determine who goes to heaven and hell because we aren't honest enough to do so. Therefore only God is qualified to choose who gets saved and who doesn't. ;)
Jesus died for all, for many and for few. That means that he died for every man who wants it which will be many. But compared to those who don't want it, we will be few. All one has to do is go to an atheist forum to see that they are proud of rejecting God. So once again, that reconciles all scripture together instead of making scripture contradict itself. :)

As nice as I can say it, you are so incorrect. We would have to spend hours upon hours first going over inherited sin, predestination, OSAS, free will, Salvation, Sanctification, etc.....

I'm not sure where to start, or if I even should. :hmm:

An explanation of Ephesians 1:4:



God has had an eternal plan in mind - a scheme of redemption for those who will accept it.
Those who are chosen are those who are "in Him" (Christ) vs. 3-4
We become God's children by our faith in and obedience to Christ's gospel (v. 5). God adopts us into His family upon our obedience (Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:4-6).
The counsel of God's will (v. 11) refers to His decision to send Jesus to redeem the obedient.

diffangle
Jun 17th 2008, 05:05 PM
Rev 3:5 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=3&v=5&t=KJV#5)He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This shows a condition for one in order to not be blotted out of the book of life... "he that overcometh".

Overcometh= nikaō (Strong's G3528) meaning...

of Christians, that hold fast their faith even unto death against the power of their foes, and temptations and persecutions

Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 05:19 PM
As nice as I can say it, you are so incorrect. We would have to spend hours upon hours first going over inherited sin, predestination, OSAS, free will, Salvation, Sanctification, etc.....

I'm not sure where to start, or if I even should. :hmm:

An explanation of Ephesians 1:4:



God has had an eternal plan in mind - a scheme of redemption for those who will accept it.
Those who are chosen are those who are "in Him" (Christ) vs. 3-4
We become God's children by our faith in and obedience to Christ's gospel (v. 5). God adopts us into His family upon our obedience (Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:4-6).
The counsel of God's will (v. 11) refers to His decision to send Jesus to redeem the obedient.



Sorry, but God isn't just capable of foreknowledge. :rofl:He is omnipotent as well as omniscient. ;) All you have to do is see who's punishing the Jews by reading most of the OT, including and especially Deuteronomy 28:2-52. God hardens whom he wants to harden and has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy. It's His sovereign choice.

But I have a question for you; Which part of our nature does the right thing and chooses God?

1) Our sinful nature?:o
2) Or the Holy Spirit inside of us? :confused

If you answered A, you are incorrect because Romans 8:8 says that the sinful nature cannot please God. Romans 3:11 also says "No one seeks God."

If you answered B, that means that it is God who is moving us to follow his decrees and obey his laws as Ezekiel 36:27 explains. So free will? Heavens no!:rolleyes:

It's incomprehensible to me that any Christian would want to take credit for God's work in him...unless God isn't working in him. That's the only explanation for that pride.

faithfulfriend
Jun 17th 2008, 05:22 PM
But I have a question for you; Which part of our nature does the right thin and chooses God?1) Our sinful nature?:o
2) Or the Holy Spirit inside of us? :confused

True Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit, therefore they follow God and obey his commandments. Notice the bible says IF you love me, keep my commandments. Adam and Eve CHOSE to disobey God, therefore they backslid. I can choose to follow God or choose not too.

De 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

We have a choice, and we are free-will creatures. An individual can backslide, as I have shown in post #14 but nobody seems to want to respond to it. It's sorta being ignored.....

Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 05:29 PM
True Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit, therefore they follow God and obey his commandments. Notice the bible says IF you love me, keep my commandments. Adam and Eve CHOSE to disobey God, therefore they backslid. I can choose to follow God or choose not too.

De 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

We have a choice, and we are free-will creatures. An individual can backslide, as I have shown in post #14 but nobody seems to want to respond to it. It's sorta being ignored.....

for the last time; where do you think the love we have for Jesus comes from?

1) Our sinful nature
2) The indwelling Holy Spirit?

I'll give you a hint; it's not the first one. ;) Because God first loved us do we have the power to love God. So that passage means that if we have the love of God inside of us, then we can remain in the vine. Once he has cleaned our cup from the inside, our outsides will become clean as well. "Ye of little faith." :rolleyes:

faithfulfriend
Jun 17th 2008, 05:43 PM
for the last time; where do you think the love we have for Jesus comes from?

1) Our sinful nature
2) The indwelling Holy Spirit?

I'll give you a hint; it's not the first one. ;) Because God first loved us do we have the power to love God. So that passage means that if we have the love of God inside of us, then we can remain in the vine. Once he has cleaned our cup from the inside, our outsides will become clean as well. "Ye of little faith." :rolleyes:

Right....you're not filled with the Holy Spirit as soon as your born though. If you believe that, then we can cover that as well.

The answer is B. I already stated that. But because you have the love of God in you does not mean it is impossible for you not to have a choice. You ignored my scripture: "IF IF IF IF IF you love me, keep my commandments"

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

And you are correct, once an individual is filled with the Holy Spirit, he will obey the commandments of God. But not because he is FORCED to or predestined to, but because he WANTS to. But as I've shown in post #14 (i feel as if I'm repeating myself here)....Christians can backslide. And you've yet to respond to those scriptures and points made individually. I've done my best to respond to you.

diffangle
Jun 17th 2008, 05:43 PM
An individual can backslide, as I have shown in post #14 but nobody seems to want to respond to it. It's sorta being ignored.....
I too would like to see those passages addressed. :hmm:

Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 05:54 PM
Right....you're not filled with the Holy Spirit as soon as your born though. If you believe that, then we can cover that as well.

The answer is B. I already stated that. But because you have the love of God in you does not mean it is impossible for you not to have a choice. You ignored my scripture: "IF IF IF IF IF you love me, keep my commandments"

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

And you are correct, once an individual is filled with the Holy Spirit, he will obey the commandments of God. But not because he is FORCED to or predestined to, but because he WANTS to. But as I've shown in post #14 (i feel as if I'm repeating myself here)....Christians can backslide. And you've yet to respond to those scriptures and points made individually. I've done my best to respond to you.

No, once we receive the Holy Spirit, that's just the beginning of what God will do in us and through us. But we can have faith that He will complete the work he began in us as Philippians 1:4 tells us. :) But unfortunately, too many people don't have enough faith in God that He will keep us strong to the end. :cry:

faithfulfriend
Jun 17th 2008, 05:59 PM
No, once we receive the Holy Spirit, that's just the beginning of what God will do in us and through us. But we can have faith that He will complete the work he began in us as Philippians 1:4 tells us. :) But unfortunately, too many people don't have enough faith in God that He will keep us strong to the end. :cry:

Just want to clarify that I understand the logic here.

So you are saying that anyone can be filled with the Holy Spirit? If so, how could the Holy Spirit be in someone who is "predestined" to go to Hell?

By Faith
Jun 17th 2008, 06:03 PM
Ok Joyfilled: I often caution my congregation in pulling scriptures that may mention what you are looking for in defense of a claim because you may be taken things out of context of what the scripture was intended for. The bible does not contradict itself human misunderstandings that does that.

1. Romans 8:9 Is talking about salvation
2. 1 Cor 1:8 Paul is writing to the church of corinth to end division of the chruch. He is talking here so they may remain strong in the lord (speak life over the church) and keep them united.
3. 1 john 4:4 Discerning false prophets
4. 1 john 3:9 living as a child of God the difference between practicing sin and being of a sinful nature. We are not of the world if we are not practicing the sin of the world. But once we began to do that we either 1. cause apostasy 2. never were saved in the first place.
5. Jude 24: A prayer of Praise...remember (the Holy Spirit wasn't as active in the old that it is in the new and in the new we rece the holy spirit at the moment we rece salvation)...so going to the old test to support you may be rocky.

Now check into these scriptures...I was thinking that maybe if you use a bible companion, a comentary and use different translations of the bible to help break this down it may help.

Apostasy/backsliding/false prophets/turning away from the faith/caution of falling...some of these scrips Jesus himself is talking.
heb 10:25 and on
Heb 6:4-6
Tim 4:1-3
2 thes 2:3
2Peter 3;17
Heb 3:12
Matt 24:9-10 Jesus is talking
Luke 8:13 Jesus is talking
Matt 24:11-14 Jesus is talking
Gal 2:4

Also remember a parable is a short story that talks about a moral attitude. sermons and teachings are different it is a word from God moved by the holy spirit thorugh man. The fig tree was a parable... not to take anything away from it because our savior said it, but he said to illustrate a specific moral point and the holy spirit is not a moral agent. He is much more.

Hope this helps!

9Marksfan
Jun 18th 2008, 08:54 AM
I too would like to see those passages addressed. :hmm:

Post 14 would virtually require a thesis to respond to it - unfortunately I didn't have time the other night to respond to it, but I may have time today. I did give a brief response to it but wanted to see if Joyfilled would respond to the post, as it was addressed to him/her. But as he/she doesn't believe it's possible for a believer to backslide, he/she and I differ on that point. I have to say that I'm surprised thay Joyfilled believes that Peter (and presumably the other apostles?) did not have the HS before Pentecost - how could they have believed in Christ without Him? How could they have followed Christ without Him? Sure, they had not received His fulness, but that wasn't their fault - the Spirit could NOT be "given" in that way before the cross, because Jesus had not ascended!

I believe it IS possible for true believers to backslide - but not ULTIMATELY. I aslo believe that the final evidence that make-believers are fake is that they fall away AND NEVER REPENT......

Marvin
Jun 19th 2008, 03:28 AM
I think as proven by Faithfulfriend here there are far more compelling scriptures to suggest that one can slip from the faith than there is that suggest they can't. The fact is there are many great people of God who have slipped out of the faith and they were deemed to be great people of God by their peers (holy spirit filled peers).

I don't think it's good enough to just quote contrary scriptures and claim them to be the "be all and end all" of the debate. I think Faithfulfriend has adeptly shown that his are in context and convincing and I don't see that anyone has been able to counter that. For Paul to admit that he too could possibly fall from grace is a major piece of biblical evidence in my mind that true christians can fall out of the faith.

9Marksfan
Jun 19th 2008, 08:58 AM
I think as proven by Faithfulfriend here there are far more compelling scriptures to suggest that one can slip from the faith than there is that suggest they can't. The fact is there are many great people of God who have slipped out of the faith and they were deemed to be great people of God by their peers (holy spirit filled peers).

I don't think it's good enough to just quote contrary scriptures and claim them to be the "be all and end all" of the debate. I think Faithfulfriend has adeptly shown that his are in context and convincing and I don't see that anyone has been able to counter that. For Paul to admit that he too could possibly fall from grace is a major piece of biblical evidence in my mind that true christians can fall out of the faith.

OK - I have some time this morning - I'm going to reply to post #14 to show that, taken properly in context, none of these verses teach that the elect will be lost - and that the verses that Joyfilled has cited teach that all those given to Christ by the Father WILL be saved. Before I do, however, do folks here not agree that Scripture does not contradict Scripture, that for a doctrine to be true, that all the Scriptures regarding it must harmonise and that if there are any contradictions, the doctrine must be false? In other words, that we must let Scripture interpret Scripture, not our own presuppositions and "reasonong"?

mercychild101
Jun 19th 2008, 05:55 PM
Just want to clarify that I understand the logic here.

So you are saying that anyone can be filled with the Holy Spirit? If so, how could the Holy Spirit be in someone who is "predestined" to go to Hell?

your going into a whole nother area here, called predestination. a friend of mine describes it like this. all of us here on earth were headed in the same direction on the same road. and God out of his great kindness and mercy reached down and plucked some of us from that road.

Marvin
Jun 19th 2008, 10:57 PM
OK - I have some time this morning - I'm going to reply to post #14 to show that, taken properly in context, none of these verses teach that the elect will be lost - and that the verses that Joyfilled has cited teach that all those given to Christ by the Father WILL be saved. Before I do, however, do folks here not agree that Scripture does not contradict Scripture, that for a doctrine to be true, that all the Scriptures regarding it must harmonise and that if there are any contradictions, the doctrine must be false? In other words, that we must let Scripture interpret Scripture, not our own presuppositions and "reasonong"?
I agree that all scriptures must harmonise. I agree that if their are contradictions, one of the doctrones must be false, yes.

However I do have a problem with you using the word "elect". I think you will need to define what you mean by that. I see the elect as all Christians who have repented and accepted Christ as their savior.

9Marksfan
Jun 19th 2008, 11:55 PM
I agree that all scriptures must harmonise. I agree that if their are contradictions, one of the doctrones must be false, yes.

However I do have a problem with you using the word "elect". I think you will need to define what you mean by that. I see the elect as all Christians who have repented and accepted Christ as their savior.

So do I - I may be misinterpreting what you are saying, but do you think that you can be a Christian WITHOUT repenting and accepting Jesus as your Saviour?

Marvin
Jun 20th 2008, 12:07 AM
So do I - I may be misinterpreting what you are saying, but do you think that you can be a Christian WITHOUT repenting and accepting Jesus as your Saviour?
No. Perhaps I worded wrongly:
I see the elect as all PEOPLE who have repented and accepted Christ as their savior.

Better? :)

ProjectPeter
Jun 29th 2008, 02:40 PM
Moved to the proper forum.

Gift of God
Jun 29th 2008, 09:25 PM
The original intent of Jesus in saying that a good tree does not bear bad fruit is to say that if you are not bearing good fruit you are not a good tree. To say that this verse means what you say at the beginning of this thread, Joyfilled, is to run with the idea until you contradict the rest of scripture. This is possible on many counts and it is something which we must try to avoid in our interpretation of scripture.

ProjectPeter
Jun 29th 2008, 10:10 PM
And when has that ever happened in the world of horticulture?!?! :lol:

You've been watching LOTR too much!Then again... one is going to have to show that the Spirit is the root. Good luck doing that according to Scripture and the OP makes the Spirit the root.

ProjectPeter
Jun 29th 2008, 10:13 PM
Sorry, but scripture doesn't contradict itself, so you are not interpreting those passages correctly. Once you realize that there are no contradictions in the bible, then those passages are talking to people who openly claim to be Christians yet have no root. Otherwise, you are claiming that either Jesus was talking about trees or he's wrong, and good trees can bear bad fruit. But since Jesus is never wrong, then it's you who are misinterpreting the bible. :)Pray tell how it is that one is misinterpreting a passage that says one can fall away by saying a person can fall away?

Point... if a passage of Scripture says one can fall away then Scripturally... one can fall away. To say that one cannot fall away regardless of what Scripture says... there's the error. It isn't even a misinterpretation... it's just error.

ProjectPeter
Jun 29th 2008, 10:39 PM
Sorry, but all one needs is a basic understanding of word vocabulary and grammar to understand what that passage or any passage in the bible means. But what Satan does is try to re-define simple words like "is", "a", "cannot" "good" tree" in order to twist meanings into their opposite. I don't do that because Paul tells us not to quibble about words. If we do, we can re-write the bible to make it say anything that itching ear want to hear.

So as Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 11:19, "No doubt there have to be divisions among you to show which of you has God's approval. " Those who have God's approval don't have to re-define simple words that we all learned in elementary school. Those who don't believe the bible, do have to try to re-define simple words like "is" because they don't like what the bible says. So if one doesn't understand the simple words in that passage, then he has no chance of understanding the spiritual truths underneath them. One cannot follow someone he doesn't believe or understand.

But according to your reasoning, then every denomination is right because they can change the bible to make it say anything he wants it to say; thus there would be no false teachers, which is of course, untrue. So all one has to do is believe the simple words in the bible instead of changing them around to make them say the opposite.Okay... let's talk about a simple grasp in the English language and word vocabulary.

Fall away.... how can a person fall away from someplace they have never been? Can I fall off a mountain if I am not or never been on a mountain? Is there any need to warn me about falling off a mountain if I am not on that mountain? I do so appreciate keeping it simple so keep it simple eh?

A man doesn't fall off a horse until he's first been on the horse. It's that simple is it not?

ProjectPeter
Jun 29th 2008, 10:43 PM
I would love nothing more than to do that, faithfulfriend, however I won't be able to do so until much later tonight (it's 7pm here in the UK) - and I also don't want to butt in on Joyfilled's opportunity to reply. But, in brief, I believe that Joyfilled and Christiana are absolutely Scriptural in their understanding and that you are imposing your free will semi-Pelagianism/Arminianism on to the Scriptures. Everything becomes clear once you accept that the VISIBLE church on Earth is NOT made up exclusively of Christians (something presumably that we would all accept!). Once THAT is accepted, ALL these verses fit into place - even the ones you have cited!Nigel... you speak on this often... the "visible" church. But tell me this... does Scripture really speak on this and then make it clear that Paul or any of the others are writing two groups of people... visible and invisible? I mean seriously... Paul is writing to the church and just like I pointed out before... verses like "fall away" ... one can't fall off a horse unless they've been on the horse in the first place. That's just as simple as it can be. This idea of the visible church.... the church can't save. It doesn't matter a whit if someone falls away from a church or not. For this to make sense.... the church would have to be the thing that actually saves folk.

ProjectPeter
Jun 29th 2008, 10:44 PM
No, you said that we voluntarily accept Christ which is untrue by the scriptures I presented and more. Most of the OT Holy people tried to resist God. Moses said; "Who am I Lord?" Jonah tried to run away from God's calling. Jeremiah said he was too much of a child, God had to break Jacob's hips, Paul was rounding up Christians for slaughter, all the disciples abandoned Jesus at the cross. It was only when the power of the Holy Spirit overcame those people that they could follow Jesus as Ezekiel 36:27 says; "And I will put my spirit in you and I will move you to follow my decrees and obey my laws."

Romans 3:11 says; "There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God."

So accepting Christ is as voluntary as some healing you of blindness which isn't voluntarily at all.:rolleyes:

So why do so many people want to take credit for God's work in them? :confused Do you really think that you are that righteous? :confused God says no and he is right.Do you think that Paul took the Psalms out of context?

ProjectPeter
Jun 29th 2008, 10:47 PM
Sorry, but you are again disagreeing with Romans 8:9, 1 Corinthians 1:8, Jude 24, 1 John 4:4, 1 John 3:9, and more. Once God delivers us of a sin, it is gone. So people don't backslide. Once we receive the Holy Spirit, that's just the beginning of the work that God will do in us.

But unfortunately, too many people think that once a person receives the Holy Spirit he's automatically as perfect as God. :o Not so.

So all you have to do is believe that "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit" and you will then rely on the root of the tree for the health of the fruit instead of believing that you can bear good fruit by being separate from the vine.

It really doesn't appear that too many people here believe that the health of the fruit comes from the root of the tree like Jesus says it does. But you're wrong. So look to the root of the tree for strength, not your own effort apart from the root.It is an easy thing to just holler WRONG! Quite another to actually go to those passages and prove it is wrong. Here is what I see you doing.

EVERYTHING MUST MATCH MY PASSAGES. Well here is your problem... your passages must match those passages. When you reverse it... quite another thing. ;) You are trying to make it work your way. The Bible ain't Burger King. :lol:

ProjectPeter
Jun 29th 2008, 10:50 PM
Sorry, but Peter didn't have the indwelling Holy Spirit at the cross. He only received his after Jesus resurrected. There was a reason for that; if Peter had not denied Christ, he would have been killed along with Jesus which wasn't in God's will for many reasons. So no, Peter did not backslide since he didn't have enough faith in Jesus until Jesus blew on him.

Judas was doomed from the beginning. So please read John 6:64-65 to see that Judas's heart was always hard. Do Judas was already a wolf disguised as a sheep and only responded from where he's always been.

The NT is simply there to show us what God wants for us. And all born again Christians will be moved by the Spirit to follow God as Ezekiel 36:27 & Romans 8:9 tell us. The indwelling Holy Spirit inside of us makes it way too uncomfortable to keep on sinning as this passage explains:

1 john 3:9, "No one born of God continues to sin, indeed he cannot go on sinning because God's seed remains in him."

So again, you need to put all scripture together and come up with an interpretation that doesn't contradict any scripture. Only then will it be the right interpretation. :)Uhhh.... alrighty then!

Luke 22:31 ¶"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;
32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

Peter fell away... turned from Christ... God... you are making it as if what Peter did was perfectly cool and just part of the old plan.

As to Judas being a wolf from the beginning... let's see some Scripture on that?

ProjectPeter
Jun 29th 2008, 11:01 PM
The whole key is that none of us knows if we are being drawn by God or not, only God knows that. So all of us are without excuse.:)

Of course God wants all to be saved just like all parents want our children to do the right thing! But like parents, God knows that each of us has to accept personal accountability for our actions so that we can come to our own understanding of why we need him. That's why God binds us all over to disobedience so he can have mercy on us. But only God knows each person's heart so only He can decide which ones he knows, just like an employer has the right to hire and fire whomever he pleases as Jesus explains in Matthew 20. So read and believe Romans 9:11-25 and you'll have no problem.

Once again, the NT is simply showing us what God wants for us. The true born again Christians will take it to heart, the wolves in sheep's clothing will eventually turn away. That's all those verses you quoted are telling us. :) That is also the only interpretation that reconciles all scripture together, not just takes verses out of context. :)So far once again... all I see you saying is WRONG! Why is it that you don't actually discuss Scripture with folk? Show us how these passages are misinterpreted... just saying WRONG don't mean much. ;)

Zack702
Jun 29th 2008, 11:33 PM
"a good tree cannot bear bad fruit."

I think this just preety much means in the end your either good fruit or bad fruit. For example your either a peach tree with sweet peaches or a thorny tree with bitter berries.

So in this way salvation is always before you while you bear fruit.

We have a basic understanding of things but the complexity of them we still are searching out and will always be. Yea I agree that on simple levels we can know people by there fruits but we don't have the full knowing of there fruits but only self-righteous knowings.

Now there may be people out there with the understanding to properly judge peoples fruit on complex levels. But only God knows the full effects of cause.

faithfulfriend
Jun 30th 2008, 02:33 AM
My post #14 still hasn't been addressed or is being ignored.

Are we going to just post opinions and debate opinions on this thread or do we want to discuss what the Bible says?:confused

Gift of God
Jun 30th 2008, 02:46 AM
I trust this will help you see God's truth concerning the doctrine of "Once in grace, always in grace"

I. Parables that show the possibility of falling from grace.
1. The sower and the seed (or the soil). Matthew 13:1-23; especially verses 20-21: Mt 13:20-21 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. Also Luke 8:4-15; especially verse 13: Lu 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Note that Matthew has that they “endured” (were saved) for a time, then were offended. Luke has that many believed for a time, then fell away.

2. The vine and the branches (John 15:1-8). Note verse two: Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Branches that are in Christ (new creatures II Cor. 5:17) are “taken away” (cut off) if they do not bear fruit. Same thought in verse six: Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

3. The lost sheep (Matthew 18:12-14). This sheep was once with the shepherd (Christ) but strayed away from Christ, then was brought back. The argument that this sheep was still secure because it was still a sheep is invalid. In this parable the saved are represented by the sheep in the fold. The unsaved (lost) are represented by the sheep that is lost. Once it was saved, then lost.

4. The fruitless tree (Luke 13:6-9), teaches exactly the same truth as the fruitless branch of John 15.

5. The five foolish virgins (Matthew 25:1-13). These virgins had lights (were saved) but these lights went out. They were rejected.

II. Some did backslide.
1. Peter (Matthew 26:69-75). He denied Christ. Luke 22:32 teaches that Peter had a second conversion following his defection: Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

2. Judas. Judas was given the same power as the other apostles. Had he not been a Christian, this would have been impossible. Judas fell (ceased to be in grace) through transgression. Acts 1:25: That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.The Bible does not say he was a devil from the beginning. In John 6:70, Judas is called a devil (opposer) just like Peter is called Satan (opposer) in Matthew 16:23.

3. Hymaenaeus and Alexander. I Timothy 1:19-20: Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

III. Apostasy is shown to be possible.
1. Ezekiel 33:18: When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. This is a prophecy of the gospel dispensation.

2. Romans 11:20-21: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Christians can be cut off.

3. I Corinthians 8:11: And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? It is possible for a weak brother to PERISH through our uncharitable activities.

4. I Corinthians 9:27: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. As great as Paul was, he knew he could still be lost.

5. I Corinthians 10:12: Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. An admonition showing the possibility of apostacy.

6. Galatians 5:4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. People can “fall from grace.”

7. I Thessalonians 3:5: For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain. If these failed under temptations, Paul’s labors in getting them saved would be wasted labor.

8. I Timothy 5:11-12: But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. Those who cast off their first faith are damned.

9. Hebrews 3:6, 12, 14:
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Admonitions showing the possibility of falling.

10. Hebrews 4:11: Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. We can fall just as the Israelites did.

11. Hebrews 6:4-6: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. These passages very strongly show the possibility of final and complete apostasy, as well as backsliding. (As well as Hebrews 10:26-39)

12. Hebrews 12:15: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; It is possible for one to fail (lack) the grace of God after having had it at one time.

13. James 5:19-20: Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. People who have departed from the truth require a second conversion experience.

14. II Peter 1:10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: An admonition to avoid falling from grace.

15. II Peter 2:20-22: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. A strong statement showing how apostasy can come.

16. Revelation 3:14-16: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. God will not tolerate unwholesome conditions.

Amen, the reason why it hasn't been addressed is that there is no argument against it. It is all scripture. 'Once saved always saved' is proved false by your statements.

9Marksfan
Jul 1st 2008, 11:29 AM
My post #14 still hasn't been addressed or is being ignored.

Are we going to just post opinions and debate opinions on this thread or do we want to discuss what the Bible says?:confused

Hi - apologies I wasn't able to reply last Tuesday - I may have time on Thursday this week.

9Marksfan
Jul 1st 2008, 11:40 AM
Nigel... you speak on this often... the "visible" church. But tell me this... does Scripture really speak on this and then make it clear that Paul or any of the others are writing two groups of people... visible and invisible?

He's clearly writing to the only people he can write to - the visible church - yet I think we all agree that no one can say with any kind of certainty that every church is made up 100% of born again believers - right? Granted, some churches have mostlyu believers in them and some have hardly any (maybe none!) - but God alone knows PRECISELY those who are his - we can have a good idea, but we mustn't forget how great is our capacitry for being deceived and even deceiving ourselves. So the visible church will always CONTAIN the invisible church - but will always be MORE TAHN it in number - agreed?


I mean seriously... Paul is writing to the church and just like I pointed out before... verses like "fall away" ... one can't fall off a horse unless they've been on the horse in the first place. That's just as simple as it can be.

But remember that apostasy is falling away from adherence to the faith - belief itself - kind of like a former Communist could be said to have fallen way from his political beliefs when he became a free market capitalist!


This idea of the visible church.... the church can't save.

I'm not saying that it can - but Paul and the other NT writers address the churches as the covenant community - they treat them as saved, yet warn them to watch out because some of them may not be - there are OODLES of Scriptures (many that you regularly quote yourself!) that teach this - it's like the Trinity - you'll struggle to find an exact verse that specifically teaches it, but once you take the whole teaching of Scripture together, the doctrine becomes clear!


It doesn't matter a whit if someone falls away from a church or not. For this to make sense.... the church would have to be the thing that actually saves folk.

Don't see how you're getting this, Ken - people fall away from "the faith" - having professed faith in Christ and having appeared to follow him and believe in all (well, most) of the right things, perhaps for a lengthy period, they turn away from Him - they necessarily turn away from the church too (although who knows how many people are active members yet actually apostate in their hearts?!?! Scary thought indeed....).

I paln to speak more fully on this in my reply to faithfulfriend's post #14, but it will take so long that Thursday will be the first opportunity I'll have....

ProjectPeter
Jul 1st 2008, 12:01 PM
He's clearly writing to the only people he can write to - the visible church - yet I think we all agree that no one can say with any kind of certainty that every church is made up 100% of born again believers - right? Granted, some churches have mostlyu believers in them and some have hardly any (maybe none!) - but God alone knows PRECISELY those who are his - we can have a good idea, but we mustn't forget how great is our capacitry for being deceived and even deceiving ourselves. So the visible church will always CONTAIN the invisible church - but will always be MORE TAHN it in number - agreed?



But remember that apostasy is falling away from adherence to the faith - belief itself - kind of like a former Communist could be said to have fallen way from his political beliefs when he became a free market capitalist!



I'm not saying that it can - but Paul and the other NT writers address the churches as the covenant community - they treat them as saved, yet warn them to watch out because some of them may not be - there are OODLES of Scriptures (many that you regularly quote yourself!) that teach this - it's like the Trinity - you'll struggle to find an exact verse that specifically teaches it, but once you take the whole teaching of Scripture together, the doctrine becomes clear!



Don't see how you're getting this, Ken - people fall away from "the faith" - having professed faith in Christ and having appeared to follow him and believe in all (well, most) of the right things, perhaps for a lengthy period, they turn away from Him - they necessarily turn away from the church too (although who knows how many people are active members yet actually apostate in their hearts?!?! Scary thought indeed....).

I paln to speak more fully on this in my reply to faithfulfriend's post #14, but it will take so long that Thursday will be the first opportunity I'll have....
I'll wait till your post then. I still see it as trying to make a doctrine fit Scripture as opposed to letting Scripture make doctrine.

9Marksfan
Jul 1st 2008, 12:42 PM
I'll wait till your post then. I still see it as trying to make a doctrine fit Scripture as opposed to letting Scripture make doctrine.

.......which is exactly how I view Arminianism!!! :P ;) :lol:

ProjectPeter
Jul 1st 2008, 12:46 PM
Sure you do because your doctrine is opposed to it etc. Problem is the way I see it... when one takes what is clearly written and replaces it with all these theological doctrinal slanted words we toss out.... generally that translates to this... I know it says that but that isn't really what it means. In other words... we make those passages of little to no affect. We make them say something actually opposite of what it actually says. I just see danger in doing that.

crawfish
Jul 1st 2008, 12:47 PM
.......which is exactly how I view Arminianism!!! :P ;) :lol:

After a look at pure arminianism, I think both sides are guilty of that. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jul 1st 2008, 12:50 PM
After a look at pure arminianism, I think both sides are guilty of that. ;)
Well in all fairness there probably isn't a true Arminian nor a true Calvinist around. Even the TULIP thing has issues according to the Institutes of Calvin. I did a thing on that a long time ago and don't have the drive to do it again. But basic point... when that council gathered... the folks that were actually discipled by Calvin weren't allowed in the meeting. There was a reason for that I suspect. ;)

Point being... There are certainly things I would not agree with and certainly things I do agree with on both fellows. But that's about as far as that pony is going to ride.

9Marksfan
Jul 1st 2008, 01:01 PM
Sure you do because your doctrine is opposed to it etc. Problem is the way I see it... when one takes what is clearly written and replaces it with all these theological doctrinal slanted words we toss out.... generally that translates to this... I know it says that but that isn't really what it means. In other words... we make those passages of little to no affect. We make them say something actually opposite of what it actually says. I just see danger in doing that.

But the problem is, I think you guys do the same thing with OUR favourite texts too! While I find I'm disgreeing wuite a lot these days with Brother Mark, I like what he says about there being mystery - and that we should just accept that. Believe it or not, my own position has changed quite a bit over the years - I am now (thanks to Piper and my own Scripture reading) much more POTS than OSAS and I'm also less "party line" on such texts as 1 Jn 2:2 and 2 Pet 3:9.

9Marksfan
Jul 1st 2008, 01:03 PM
Well in all fairness there probably isn't a true Arminian nor a true Calvinist around. Even the TULIP thing has issues according to the Institutes of Calvin. I did a thing on that a long time ago and don't have the drive to do it again. But basic point... when that council gathered... the folks that were actually discipled by Calvin weren't allowed in the meeting. There was a reason for that I suspect. ;)

Point being... There are certainly things I would not agree with and certainly things I do agree with on both fellows. But that's about as far as that pony is going to ride.

And here was me thinking you were just about THE most full-on signed-up Wesleyan Arminian on this Forum? So can I ask where you disagree with that system?

ProjectPeter
Jul 1st 2008, 01:13 PM
You just made the point though. Wesley Arminianism is not the same as the classical which began with Jacobus Arminius. While the differences may be somewhat subtle... they are still differences. I would say the very same about Calvinism as taught by John Calvin and the Reformed Church today.

Jacobus basically opposed some of the tenets of Calvin. Thus the movement began. For the most part I agree with his opposition although point by point... we'd have some disagreements. And shoot no... I ain't even going to try that in this thread. It would so derail it that I would have to give my own self and infraction. :lol:

9Marksfan
Jul 1st 2008, 01:17 PM
You just made the point though. Wesley Arminianism is not the same as the classical which began with Jacobus Arminius. While the differences may be somewhat subtle... they are still differences. I would say the very same about Calvinism as taught by John Calvin and the Reformed Church today.

Agreed.


Jacobus basically opposed some of the tenants of Calvin.

Didn't know old John was a landlord! Hope he charged a fair rent! ;)


Thus the movement began. For the most part I agree with his opposition although point by point... we'd have some disagreements. And shoot no... I ain't even going to try that in this thread. It would so derail it that I would have to give my own self and infraction. :lol:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

ProjectPeter
Jul 1st 2008, 01:20 PM
Gotta love typo's! Need more coffee! :rolleyes: