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VerticalReality
Jun 16th 2008, 02:26 AM
what, if any, Scriptures declare that a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ can be under the control of a demon? Can anyone give me one example where a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ had a demon cast out of them?

Why do so many believe that both light and darkness can occupy the same space? Can someone who believes such a thing illustrate for me in the Scriptures where it proclaims that the Holy Spirit will fill and dwell in someone while this person has a demonic spirit also indwelling them?

I honestly do not know where in the world this sort of teaching came from.

longtooth
Jun 16th 2008, 02:37 AM
AMEN my Brother. You are correct.

TrustingFollower
Jun 16th 2008, 02:46 AM
I agree, light and dark can not be in the same.

stillforgiven
Jun 16th 2008, 02:55 AM
I agree with you too. Where did you see someone saying that this can happen?

cross crusader
Jun 16th 2008, 02:57 AM
what, if any, Scriptures declare that a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ can be under the control of a demon? Can anyone give me one example where a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ had a demon cast out of them?

Why do so many believe that both light and darkness can occupy the same space? Can someone who believes such a thing illustrate for me in the Scriptures where it proclaims that the Holy Spirit will fill and dwell in someone while this person has a demonic spirit also indwelling them?

I honestly do not know where in the world this sort of teaching came from.

it is absolutely no where in scripture Cory.

Athanasius
Jun 16th 2008, 02:58 AM
Who's saying a believer can be possessed?

cross crusader
Jun 16th 2008, 02:59 AM
I agree with you too. Where did you see someone saying that this can happen?
Todd Bentley apparently had one, and just about every charismatic VR and i run into believe this. they also believe that you are not totally free after salvation, that you have to renounce every thing your great great great great great great grandfather did. it absolutely unbelievable how many christians we run into that believe this. with no scripture to back it up.

stillforgiven
Jun 16th 2008, 03:10 AM
Todd Bentley apparently had one, and just about every charismatic VR and i run into believe this. they also believe that you are not totally free after salvation, that you have to renounce every thing your great great great great great great grandfather did. it absolutely unbelievable how many Christians we run into that believe this. with no scripture to back it up.

I don't have a clue who Todd Bentley is, but I don't have issues with being ignorant. :D

I've never heard anyone preach this kind of stuff before, but it is something I'll keep my eyes/ears open for as I am trying out some new churches in my area. I'll also keep my ears open for people I know being sucked into this stuff.

VerticalReality
Jun 16th 2008, 03:33 AM
Where did you see someone saying that this can happen?

As cross crusader stated above, we have encountered many professing Christians in our area who are being taught that born again believers can have demons in control of them. I've seen and heard one preacher of a full gospel church in particular close to our area in several of his services where he has adamantly preached this doctrine that Christians can be possessed and that he has cast demons out of Christians. I have also encountered several on this forum in the past who believe that Christians can be possessed the same as the legion of demons that occupied the man until Jesus sent them into the herd of swine. However, what I have yet to see is any of these folks actually back their claims with the Word of God. Not one source can they reference that indicates anything close to what they are proclaiming.

ShirleyFord
Jun 16th 2008, 05:56 AM
what, if any, Scriptures declare that a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ can be under the control of a demon? Can anyone give me one example where a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ had a demon cast out of them?

Why do so many believe that both light and darkness can occupy the same space? Can someone who believes such a thing illustrate for me in the Scriptures where it proclaims that the Holy Spirit will fill and dwell in someone while this person has a demonic spirit also indwelling them?

I honestly do not know where in the world this sort of teaching came from.

I agree. It is not biblical.

But this teaching and ministry has been around I know since the 1970s. In fact I was a member of a Charasmatic Church back in the late 1970s and mid 1980s and the pastor called his ministry "a deliverance ministry". But he didn't really get into the casting demons out of Spirit-filled, blood washed Christians all that much in the Church services until the mid 1980s. But he held a couple of Bible Studies during the week which some of my friends from there went and they shared with me that those Bible studies were more the casting out of demons out of Christians than studying the Bible.

I found out in the mid 1980s that the pastor based his "ministry on "Pigs in a Parlor" and other books on deliverance from demons when the author came to our church one night. He held a deliverance ministry that night for 5 hours before I left and it was still going on.

I would have left long before I did but I had ridden to church with those friends who had shared with me since the late 70s about the pastor casting out demons in those Bible Studies. But when I left that night, I didn't return there.

This is a link to that author and his books and tapes:

http://impactchristianbooks.com/products.asp?Submit=GO!&Author=Hammond


Shirley

theleast
Jun 16th 2008, 02:10 PM
Let's see what scripture says about this shall we?

24When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

25And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. 26Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

For when you cast the demons out of your head and do those things that are pleasing to God he sends you a Comforter. But you must stay steadfast in your faith and keep your eye single, for if you put down the plow those demons come back and in force. Then you will see that your sins are increased and it is even harder to pick that plow back up.

The Holy Spirit cannot be tainted by your sin. The Holy Spirit is pure and clean, the Holy Spirit cleanses us. But you can turn your back on the Holy Spirit. This is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Thus will the last state of the man be worst than the first. And this my brothers and sisters is the one sin that hath not forgiveness.

Brother Mark
Jun 16th 2008, 02:16 PM
what, if any, Scriptures declare that a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ can be under the control of a demon? Can anyone give me one example where a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ had a demon cast out of them?

Why do so many believe that both light and darkness can occupy the same space? Can someone who believes such a thing illustrate for me in the Scriptures where it proclaims that the Holy Spirit will fill and dwell in someone while this person has a demonic spirit also indwelling them?

I honestly do not know where in the world this sort of teaching came from.

Have you read Neil Anderson's book "The Bondage Breaker"? I see his quote in your sig. At least I think it is from him.

As for your question, a couple of thoughts. Is God omnipresent? Does he dwell in the earth along with Satan? What's the difference between say a spirit of lust being on/in a man's flesh and lust itself?

2 Cor 10:3-6
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, 4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. 5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, 6 and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.
NASB

Now a follow up question. Where is it written that a Christian can't have a demon?

Brother Mark
Jun 16th 2008, 02:17 PM
Let's see what scripture says about this shall we?

24When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

25And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. 26Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

For when you cast the demons out of your head and do those things that are pleasing to God he sends you a Comforter. But you must stay steadfast in your faith and keep your eye single, for if you put down the plow those demons come back and in force. Then you will see that your sins are increased and it is even harder to pick that plow back up.

The Holy Spirit cannot be tainted by your sin. The Holy Spirit is pure and clean, the Holy Spirit cleanses us. But you can turn your back on the Holy Spirit. This is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Thus will the last state of the man be worst than the first. And this my brothers and sisters is the one sin that hath not forgiveness.

When that passage was written, or spoken by Christ, was the comforter given yet? If not, then what did he mean by the house?

fewarechosen
Jun 16th 2008, 02:20 PM
24When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

25And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. 26Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.


i did exactly this for about 10 years after receiving the holy spirit, im glad god is long suffering and had patience with me. but it also points out to why god said we must endure till the end --its not just about enduring till we have the holy spirit.

i think often people want to feel good and feel saved, not thinking that they can be worse off , for having known and felt the holy spirit then not live like it.

the man who was given one talent and buried it , had it taken away and was cast into darkness.

pray that is not us

Teke
Jun 16th 2008, 02:26 PM
Let's see what scripture says about this shall we?

24When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

25And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. 26Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

For when you cast the demons out of your head and do those things that are pleasing to God he sends you a Comforter. But you must stay steadfast in your faith and keep your eye single, for if you put down the plow those demons come back and in force. Then you will see that your sins are increased and it is even harder to pick that plow back up.

The Holy Spirit cannot be tainted by your sin. The Holy Spirit is pure and clean, the Holy Spirit cleanses us. But you can turn your back on the Holy Spirit. This is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Thus will the last state of the man be worst than the first. And this my brothers and sisters is the one sin that hath not forgiveness.

"Adulterous generation" (12:39), the subject of the verses, echoes the analogy of the prophets for the infidelity of Israel. (Jer. 2:1-3, 20:25,32,33, 3:1-5, Hos. 2:2-13)

When by God's mercy the Israelites were delivered out of Egypt they did not repent of their impure ways. So the unclean spirits again took residence in them. (Deut. 31:20, 32:15-18, Ps. 106:34-39)

For a Christian, baptism is an exorcism in that it involves the renouncing of the devil and all that is evil. After baptism a Christian is clean. If they falter in some manner there is grace in repentance.

theleast
Jun 16th 2008, 02:27 PM
When that passage was written, or spoken by Christ, was the comforter given yet? If not, then what did he mean by the house?

The scriptures were not just written for the times past but for the present times and the future times.

The Spirit inspired those words for yesterday and today as a warning against backsliders.

It is the living Word of God.

theleast
Jun 16th 2008, 02:30 PM
"Adulterous generation" (12:39), the subject of the verses, echoes the analogy of the prophets for the infidelity of Israel. (Jer. 2:1-3, 20:25,32,33, 3:1-5, Hos. 2:2-13)

When by God's mercy the Israelites were delivered out of Egypt they did not repent of their impure ways. So the unclean spirits again took residence in them. (Deut. 31:20, 32:15-18, Ps. 106:34-39)

For a Christian, baptism is an exorcism in that it involves the renouncing of the devil and all that is evil. After baptism a Christian is clean. If they falter in some manner there is grace in repentance.

Yes there is grace in repentence. That is why the scripture says those who blaspheme the Holy Ghost are in DANGER of eternal damnation, but not yet damned.

Praise to the Almighty God that he provided for our iniquity.

Teke
Jun 16th 2008, 02:30 PM
The scriptures were not just written for the times past but for the present times and the future times.

The Spirit inspired those words for yesterday and today as a warning against backsliders.

It is the living Word of God.

Yes, but Jesus is specifically speaking to the "house" of Israel, the only "house" He spoke to before the cross.(see post 15)

Brother Mark
Jun 16th 2008, 02:30 PM
The scriptures were not just written for the times past but for the present times and the future times.

The Spirit inspired those words for yesterday and today as a warning against backsliders.

It is the living Word of God.

I know. But in context, Jesus spoke that warning to people before the Holy Spirit was given. For them to obey it, some suggest they would need to have the Holy Spirit in them. Yet, the Holy Spirit wasn't given yet. Perhaps, Jesus could be referring to something else when he spoke of the house. Maybe, he is saying the house is the structure the spirit was attracted to and found shelter in. Not our body, but our sin. Maybe, our sin gives the enemy shelter.

Eph 4:26-27

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
KJV

Just food for thought.

theleast
Jun 16th 2008, 02:32 PM
Yes, but Jesus is specifically speaking to the "house" of Israel, the only "house" He spoke to before the cross.(see post 15)

That is not the only house he spoke to before the cross.

Did he not speak to the Samaritan at the well?

Did he not heal the daughter of the woman of Canaan?

Is his gospel not preached unto the Gentiles?

fewarechosen
Jun 16th 2008, 02:33 PM
"Adulterous generation" (12:39), the subject of the verses, echoes the analogy of the prophets for the infidelity of Israel. (Jer. 2:1-3, 20:25,32,33, 3:1-5, Hos. 2:2-13)

When by God's mercy the Israelites were delivered out of Egypt they did not repent of their impure ways. So the unclean spirits again took residence in them. (Deut. 31:20, 32:15-18, Ps. 106:34-39)

For a Christian, baptism is an exorcism in that it involves the renouncing of the devil and all that is evil. After baptism a Christian is clean. If they falter in some manner there is grace in repentance.

i agree but i put in bold the important part-- repentance-- if we repent not then there is the problem.

in revelation it talks to the spirit of the church and says what will happen if we repent not

5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

we have the ability to repent after receiving holy spirit,
but if we do not confess our sins and repent -- he tells us exactly what will happen.

this problem often arises when we feel we are rightous

theleast
Jun 16th 2008, 02:34 PM
I know. But in context, Jesus spoke that warning to people before the Holy Spirit was given. For them to obey it, some suggest they would need to have the Holy Spirit in them. Yet, the Holy Spirit wasn't given yet. Perhaps, Jesus could be referring to something else when he spoke of the house. Maybe, he is saying the house is the structure the spirit was attracted to and found shelter in. Not our body, but our sin. Maybe, our sin gives the enemy shelter.

Eph 4:26-27

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
KJV

Just food for thought.

I have posted my opinion, let those who read it decide by the Spirit whether or not it is truth.

I don't want this topic to derail the thread.

Teke
Jun 16th 2008, 02:56 PM
That is not the only house he spoke to before the cross.

Did he not speak to the Samaritan at the well?

Did he not heal the daughter of the woman of Canaan?

Is his gospel not preached unto the Gentiles?

Jesus said, "Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." So He is mainly speaking to them according to the promise of God that they would be first.

The woman at the well was in the right place at the right time. The Apostles weren't there to give Him a drink.

And of course the gospel is preached to the Gentiles, after Israel, cause God wouldn't break a promise..;)

Brother Mark
Jun 16th 2008, 02:59 PM
The woman at the well was in the right place at the right time. The Apostles weren't there to give Him a drink.

There are plenty other Gentiles besides here. Even in the OT God brought in Gentiles. Jesus heard God and stayed at the well, IMO. IT wasn't a co-incidence he was there to minister to her. He only says what the Father tells him to say. He knew what this woman wanted.

Teke
Jun 16th 2008, 02:59 PM
Maybe, our sin gives the enemy shelter.



Sin enables the enemy.

Luk 22:31 ¶ And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat:

Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Teke
Jun 16th 2008, 03:04 PM
There are plenty other Gentiles besides here. Even in the OT God brought in Gentiles. Jesus heard God and stayed at the well, IMO. IT wasn't a co-incidence he was there to minister to her. He only says what the Father tells him to say. He knew what this woman wanted.

I am not denying that the Gentiles are entitled to salvation. Just keeping the facts straight that are presented in scripture. If salvation isn't of the Jews, meaning Jesus Christ, then God lied in the OT to Israel.

I don't mix my Christology with Soteriology. It would make for a complicated confusion. :lol:

VerticalReality
Jun 16th 2008, 03:06 PM
Have you read Neil Anderson's book "The Bondage Breaker"? I see his quote in your sig. At least I think it is from him.

I have read all of Victory Over the Darkness, which is the prequel to The Bondage Breaker, and I have read parts of the latter.


As for your question, a couple of thoughts. Is God omnipresent? Does he dwell in the earth along with Satan? What's the difference between say a spirit of lust being on/in a man's flesh and lust itself?

God is omnipresent.

Why does it have to be a "spirit of lust" instead of just "the flesh"? I find today that so many folks are quick to demonize everything. If someone is a murderer they must have a demon. If someone is a rapist they must have a demon. If someone has anger problems it must be a demon. I do not believe this is the case at all. The flesh can bring about all those issues without the assistance of a demon. Additionally, just because a person is influenced by wicked spirits does not mean they are under the control of them. Legion was under the control of demons. A person with a struggle against pornography I do not believe is being controlled by a demon. I believe this person just isn't crucifying the desires of their flesh. There is a huge difference between being influenced by a wicked spirit and being controlled by one.

Is there anything you have struggled with, Brother Mark? If there has been things you have struggled with, would you then say that the reason you struggled is because you were being controlled by a demon and you had no power over your actions?

In Mark 9 could the boy that was brought to Jesus control the demon that was throwing him into epileptic seizures? How about the legion of demons in the man? It doesn't sound from the Scriptures as if this man was in control of himself. The demons even spoke for him when the man approached Jesus.


Now a follow up question. Where is it written that a Christian can't have a demon?

1 John 1:5
[ Fellowship with Him and One Another ] This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.


Are born again believers not in Him? Are we not His body? Is His body filled with demons?

theleast
Jun 16th 2008, 03:09 PM
I am not denying that the Gentiles are entitled to salvation. Just keeping the facts straight that are presented in scripture. If salvation isn't of the Jews, meaning Jesus Christ, then God lied in the OT to Israel.

I don't mix my Christology with Soteriology. It would make for a complicated confusion. :lol:

2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14For many are called, but few are chosen.

For yes he came to call the Jews, but they would not hear him. So he came and bid the Gentiles to come. Many came when called but only few are chosen.

Brother Mark
Jun 16th 2008, 03:15 PM
I have read all of Victory Over the Darkness, which is the prequel to The Bondage Breaker, and I have read parts of the latter.

He believes Christians can have a demon.


God is omnipresent.

Therefor he dwells where Satan dwells too. ;)


Why does it have to be a "spirit of lust" instead of just "the flesh"?

It doesn't. But God will dwell where sin is at. That was the point I am making.


I find today that so many folks are quick to demonize everything. If someone is a murderer they must have a demon. If someone is a rapist they must have a demon. If someone has anger problems it must be a demon. I do not believe this is the case at all. The flesh can bring about all those issues without the assistance of a demon. Additionally, just because a person is influenced by wicked spirits does not mean they are under the control of them. Legion was under the control of demons. A person with a struggle against pornography I do not believe is being controlled by a demon. I believe this person just isn't crucifying the desires of their flesh. There is a huge difference between being influenced by a wicked spirit and being controlled by one.

Perhaps there is more to demons than many realize instead of the other way around.



Is there anything you have struggled with, Brother Mark? If there has been things you have struggled with, would you then say that the reason you struggled is because you were being controlled by a demon and you had no power over your actions?

Yes. And I got free of it as I understood both sin and warfare. What's your opinion of 2 cor 10?


In Mark 9 could the boy that was brought to Jesus control the demon that was throwing him into epileptic seizures? How about the legion of demons in the man? It doesn't sound from the Scriptures as if this man was in control of himself. The demons even spoke for him when the man approached Jesus.

Scripture says that the man with legion ran to Jesus. I don't think the demons did that. When Jesus began speaking to them, then they seized the man and threw him down. Those are extreme cases. Look at how Saul was demonized, yet he did not manifest at all times.


1 John 1:5
[ Fellowship with Him and One Another ] This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

Are born again believers not in Him? Are we not His body? Is His body filled with demons?

Do born again believers have sin in them? Is sin darkness? :hmm:

obeytheword
Jun 16th 2008, 03:25 PM
what, if any, Scriptures declare that a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ can be under the control of a demon? Can anyone give me one example where a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ had a demon cast out of them?

Why do so many believe that both light and darkness can occupy the same space? Can someone who believes such a thing illustrate for me in the Scriptures where it proclaims that the Holy Spirit will fill and dwell in someone while this person has a demonic spirit also indwelling them?

I honestly do not know where in the world this sort of teaching came from.

I would think that it is definition of terms that we have to be careful of. It is obvious that many proclaimed Christians are OPPRESSED daily by evil spirits. The spirit of adultery I would speculate is present in the church when you consider the level of adultery present within members of the church. Are they POSSESSED? Honestly not something I am too concerned with - I can say they are certainly OPPRESSED though.

I suppose you could argue that a "real" Christian cannot be POSSESSED - but even short of total possession - the Devil can wreck havoc on you by just getting you distracted - luring you and enticing you with the bait of sin. That leads you town the road to oppression. Many self proclaimed Christians are in BONDAGE to sin of some type. Are they not Christians, or is there more to it than we tend to want to believe?

Accepting Christ does not give you a "free pass" and ensure that you cannot be attacked, and severely oppressed. Only walking out that salvation day by day - engaging the spirit, meditating on the word, and being in constant prayer can help there.

Be Blessed!

theleast
Jun 16th 2008, 03:37 PM
I would think that it is definition of terms that we have to be careful of. It is obvious that many proclaimed Christians are OPPRESSED daily by evil spirits. The spirit of adultery I would speculate is present in the church when you consider the level of adultery present within members of the church. Are they POSSESSED? Honestly not something I am too concerned with - I can say they are certainly OPPRESSED though.

I suppose you could argue that a "real" Christian cannot be POSSESSED - but even short of total possession - the Devil can wreck havoc on you by just getting you distracted - luring you and enticing you with the bait of sin. That leads you town the road to oppression. Many self proclaimed Christians are in BONDAGE to sin of some type. Are they not Christians, or is there more to it than we tend to want to believe?

Accepting Christ does not give you a "free pass" and ensure that you cannot be attacked, and severely oppressed. Only walking out that salvation day by day - engaging the spirit, meditating on the word, and being in constant prayer can help there.

Be Blessed!

Interesting perspective. I will pray on it but am encouraged to agree with you.

Teke
Jun 16th 2008, 03:39 PM
I would think that it is definition of terms that we have to be careful of. It is obvious that many proclaimed Christians are OPPRESSED daily by evil spirits. The spirit of adultery I would speculate is present in the church when you consider the level of adultery present within members of the church. Are they POSSESSED? Honestly not something I am too concerned with - I can say they are certainly OPPRESSED though.

I suppose you could argue that a "real" Christian cannot be POSSESSED - but even short of total possession - the Devil can wreck havoc on you by just getting you distracted - luring you and enticing you with the bait of sin. That leads you town the road to oppression. Many self proclaimed Christians are in BONDAGE to sin of some type. Are they not Christians, or is there more to it than we tend to want to believe?

Accepting Christ does not give you a "free pass" and ensure that you cannot be attacked, and severely oppressed. Only walking out that salvation day by day - engaging the spirit, meditating on the word, and being in constant prayer can help there.

Be Blessed!

Now that is a good point, spiritual adultery, oppression. :hmm:

Brother Mark
Jun 16th 2008, 03:40 PM
I would think that it is definition of terms that we have to be careful of. It is obvious that many proclaimed Christians are OPPRESSED daily by evil spirits. The spirit of adultery I would speculate is present in the church when you consider the level of adultery present within members of the church. Are they POSSESSED? Honestly not something I am too concerned with - I can say they are certainly OPPRESSED though.

I suppose you could argue that a "real" Christian cannot be POSSESSED - but even short of total possession - the Devil can wreck havoc on you by just getting you distracted - luring you and enticing you with the bait of sin. That leads you town the road to oppression. Many self proclaimed Christians are in BONDAGE to sin of some type. Are they not Christians, or is there more to it than we tend to want to believe?

Accepting Christ does not give you a "free pass" and ensure that you cannot be attacked, and severely oppressed. Only walking out that salvation day by day - engaging the spirit, meditating on the word, and being in constant prayer can help there.

Be Blessed!

Does scripture make a distinction between oppression and possession? The Greek word simply means demonized. Most passages use the following word.

NT:1139 daimonizomai (dahee-mon-id'-zom-ahee); middle voice from NT:1142; to be exercised by a daemon:

KJV - have a (be vexed with, be possessed with) devil (-s).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

and oppressed...

There is only one other word used for oppression and it is here...

NT:2616 katadunasteuo (kat-ad-oo-nas-tyoo'-o); from NT:2596 and a derivative of NT:1413; to exercise dominion against, i.e. oppress:

KJV - oppress.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

This word is used twice. Once in James where the rich oppress folks and once in Acts 10 concerning the devil.

Acts 10:38

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
KJV

Your post is an excellent post. We give the devil room to hurt us. That is what Ephesians speaks of. It actually says "Don't give the devil a place". A place is more than an opportunity. Great post.

VerticalReality
Jun 16th 2008, 03:51 PM
He believes Christians can have a demon.

I've never seen him state that he believes Christians can have demons. I've seen him state that Christians can be deceived by demons because they are ignorant to the reality of who they are in Christ. In other words, I've seen him state that he believes Christians are deceived through lies of the enemy that they are not who the Word says they are. Basically Neil Anderson believes that Satan has absolutely no power over a born again believers except lies, which is absolutely correct.


Therefor he dwells where Satan dwells too. ;)

So you believe that Satan also indwells Spirit-filled Christians?


It doesn't. But God will dwell where sin is at. That was the point I am making.

Where does Scripture state that God dwells in the flesh? I know of no Scripture declaring such a thing. We are one with Him in spirit . . . not in the flesh.


Yes. And I got free of it as I understood both sin and warfare. What's your opinion of 2 cor 10?

So then you were victorius not because a demon was cast out of you like Jesus did the legion of demons but because you were enlightened to a truth that exposed the lie of the devil. My opinion of 2 Corinthians 10 is that we are to take into captivity the lies and replace them with the truth. We are to take the lies of carnality and replace them with the submission of Christ to the truth of God's Word.


Scripture says that the man with legion ran to Jesus. I don't think the demons did that. When Jesus began speaking to them, then they seized the man and threw him down. Those are extreme cases. Look at how Saul was demonized, yet he did not manifest at all times.

Saul was not born again and part of Christ's body.


Do born again believers have sin in them? Is sin darkness?

We are united with God and one with Him in spirit. We are not one with Him in flesh. Sin is in the flesh. Born again believers are not considered to be in sin by the Scriptures nor are born again believers considered to be in darkness according to the Scriptures.

Brother Mark
Jun 16th 2008, 04:04 PM
I've never seen him state that he believes Christians can have demons. I've seen him state that Christians can be deceived by demons because they are ignorant to the reality of who they are in Christ. In other words, I've seen him state that he believes Christians are deceived through lies of the enemy that they are not who the Word says they are. Basically Neil Anderson believes that Satan has absolutely no power over a born again believers except lies, which is absolutely correct.

He believes more than that. Read his book the Bondage Breaker. Lies are the things that allow them power. No doubt about that. That's why Jesus said "you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free".


So you believe that Satan also indwells Spirit-filled Christians?

Are all believers spirit filled?


Where does Scripture state that God dwells in the flesh? I know of no Scripture declaring such a thing. We are one with Him in spirit . . . not in the flesh.

Is my body the temple?


So then you were victorius not because a demon was cast out of you like Jesus did the legion of demons but because you were enlightened to a truth that exposed the lie of the devil. My opinion of 2 Corinthians 10 is that we are to take into captivity the lies and replace them with the truth. We are to take the lies of carnality and replace them with the submission of Christ to the truth of God's Word.

Do we war against lies only? What does Ephesians say we war against? The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty to the pulling down of strongholds. I can tell you for a certainty, I knew the truth and then I repented, AND THEN, God set me free from a demonic stronghold. I know when it happened. It was a miracle and changed my life forever. To be honest, it was more life changing than my salvation.

And what of this verse?

2 Cor 10:3-6
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, 4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. 5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, 6 and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.
NASB

When my obedience is complete, what is left to punish?


Saul was not born again and part of Christ's body.

I think he was born again. Though the spirit did not indwell him. Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about being born again and how the teachers of Israel should be aware of the concept. It was an OT concept. God gave Saul a new heart.


We are united with God and one with Him in spirit. We are not one with Him in flesh. Sin is in the flesh. Born again believers are not considered to be in sin by the Scriptures nor are born again believers considered to be in darkness according to the Scriptures.

I know what you are getting at. Our identity is everything. Yet, you said that God does not dwell with darkness. I said sin was darkness and that believers have sin, yet God dwells in them. If he can dwell in a believer that has sin, why can't he dwell in a believer that has a demon?

Here's another passage.

Luke 13:15-17
15 But the Lord answered him and said, "You hypocrites, does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the stall, and lead him away to water him? 16 "And this woman, a daughter of Abraham as she is, whom Satan has bound for eighteen long years, should she not have been released from this bond on the Sabbath day?"
NASB

This woman was a daughter of Abraham. She was a believer. Yet, she had been bound 18 years.

I will go one step further. Deliverance is for the believer! Not the unbeliever. Why deliver a child of Satan so he can go back to Satan?

sojourner52
Jun 16th 2008, 04:31 PM
isnt there another possibility?

maybe not possession, but opening doors to demonic influence?

there are christians who have life controlling "addictions" - porn, homosexual tendencies, alcohol, etc.

do we sometimes open a door and let a demon in, and although he doesnt take possession, have we given him ground?

a couple of decades ago, someone told me I should read a book called "Pigs in the Parlor."

it was about demon possession, etc.

I started reading the book and got so disgusted I couldnt continue. Everything negative was the result of a demon, according to the author!

I prayed, "Lord, if I have any unclean spirit in me, I want YOU to cast it out." I did not trust any person concerning this because there are kooks and there are people who are just ignorant. I dont understand it, so I trusted it to the Lord.

I didnt think about it any more. but the next evening at dinner I suddenly became very groggy. My kids were still eating but I had to leave the table or fall in my plate.

I laid down on my bed and was instantly asleep. that never happens!

I had a dream.
I saw me sitting on the edge of my bed.
I also saw me at the same time standing beside the bed.
the standing me placed a seal on the wall that said holy to the Lord.
then the standing me began speaking very forcefully in a language I did not understand.
as soon as the speaking stopped, the mouth of the seated me was forced open and out came a fire I could not see and a roar I could not hear. I dont know how else to describe it. it was as though I could sense it but I couldnt see it or hear it.
then the standing me again spoke forcefully. and again the mouth of the seated me was forced open and the same thing happened.
then a third time. but this time, the scream was a violent roar that I could feel and I woke up.
I dont know what happened, if it was just a weird dream or what. but the whole thing was very strange.
there was no reason for me to suddenly become groggy like that.
I dont believe I was "possessed."
but I do know that there were times I watched things on tv that I should not have, I allowed my mind to go places I should not have.
we are three parts - body, soul and spirit. where would a demon live? the spirit of an unbeliever is dead. the body of a believer is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
I am not saying christians can have demons - I am wondering is there a possibility that we sometimes allow them to "visit" by opening doors we shouldnt? and not resisting them? do they inhabit a person's soul?

obeytheword
Jun 16th 2008, 05:46 PM
isnt there another possibility?

maybe not possession, but opening doors to demonic influence?

there are christians who have life controlling "addictions" - porn, homosexual tendencies, alcohol, etc.

do we sometimes open a door and let a demon in, and although he doesnt take possession, have we given him ground?

a couple of decades ago, someone told me I should read a book called "Pigs in the Parlor."

it was about demon possession, etc.

I started reading the book and got so disgusted I couldnt continue. Everything negative was the result of a demon, according to the author!

I prayed, "Lord, if I have any unclean spirit in me, I want YOU to cast it out." I did not trust any person concerning this because there are kooks and there are people who are just ignorant. I dont understand it, so I trusted it to the Lord.

I didnt think about it any more. but the next evening at dinner I suddenly became very groggy. My kids were still eating but I had to leave the table or fall in my plate.

I laid down on my bed and was instantly asleep. that never happens!

I had a dream.
I saw me sitting on the edge of my bed.
I also saw me at the same time standing beside the bed.
the standing me placed a seal on the wall that said holy to the Lord.
then the standing me began speaking very forcefully in a language I did not understand.
as soon as the speaking stopped, the mouth of the seated me was forced open and out came a fire I could not see and a roar I could not hear. I dont know how else to describe it. it was as though I could sense it but I couldnt see it or hear it.
then the standing me again spoke forcefully. and again the mouth of the seated me was forced open and the same thing happened.
then a third time. but this time, the scream was a violent roar that I could feel and I woke up.
I dont know what happened, if it was just a weird dream or what. but the whole thing was very strange.
there was no reason for me to suddenly become groggy like that.
I dont believe I was "possessed."
but I do know that there were times I watched things on tv that I should not have, I allowed my mind to go places I should not have.
we are three parts - body, soul and spirit. where would a demon live? the spirit of an unbeliever is dead. the body of a believer is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
I am not saying christians can have demons - I am wondering is there a possibility that we sometimes allow them to "visit" by opening doors we shouldnt? and not resisting them? do they inhabit a person's soul?

I believe this is a large part of the question. We are without a shadow of a doubt given the weapons to war against all demonic influences in our lives. As it says in Ephesians we are to STAND. The underlying greek speaks of a military stance of readiness from what I understand.

If we forsake that stance, and instead invite evil in (i.e. sin) then we are playing a different game altogether.

I have heard many times that the Devil has no power over you without the "approval" of God, who will use it to test you - as in Job. Or to "sift" you as in Peter.

I cannot fully agree with that stance. I believe the weight of scripture demonstrates that we can indeed invite the devil in through our sin - and though God may USE it to our benefit in the end - WE are the ones who invite the problems due to our sin.

Be Blessed!

Brother Mark
Jun 16th 2008, 05:48 PM
I believe this is a large part of the question. We are without a shadow of a doubt given the weapons to war against all demonic influences in our lives. As it says in Ephesians we are to STAND. The underlying greek speaks of a military stance of readiness from what I understand.

If we forsake that stance, and instead invite evil in (i.e. sin) then we are playing a different game altogether.

I have heard many times that the Devil has no power over you without the "approval" of God, who will use it to test you - as in Job. Or to "sift" you as in Peter.

I cannot fully agree with that stance. I believe the weight of scripture demonstrates that we can indeed invite the devil in through our sin - and though God may USE it to our benefit in the end - WE are the ones who invite the problems due to our sin.

Be Blessed!

When Israel continued in sin and rebellion, who did God bring on top of them? If he used their enemy to chastise them, why would he not use ours?

VerticalReality
Jun 16th 2008, 06:58 PM
He believes more than that. Read his book the Bondage Breaker. Lies are the things that allow them power. No doubt about that. That's why Jesus said "you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free".

I'll have to finish the parts I didn't read. The parts I did mentioned nothing of Christians being under the control of demons.


Are all believers spirit filled?

John 14:15-18
“If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

This Scripture indicates to me that all genuine believers will be indwelt by His Spirit.


Is my body the temple?

Your body is . . . your flesh is not. There is a difference between the body and the flesh.


Do we war against lies only? What does Ephesians say we war against?

We war against principalities and powers who lie.;):lol:


The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty to the pulling down of strongholds. I can tell you for a certainty, I knew the truth and then I repented, AND THEN, God set me free from a demonic stronghold. I know when it happened. It was a miracle and changed my life forever. To be honest, it was more life changing than my salvation.

So then you were not being controlled by a demon. You were simply being deceived by a demon. Would you not agree?



And what of this verse?

When my obedience is complete, what is left to punish?


I think the disobedience here is referring back to verse two . . .

2 Corinthians 10:2-6
But I beg you that when I am present I may not be bold with that confidence by which I intend to be bold against some, who think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

I think Paul is referring to the disobedience of other folks in the church that are not walking according to the Spirit.


I think he was born again. Though the spirit did not indwell him. Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about being born again and how the teachers of Israel should be aware of the concept. It was an OT concept. God gave Saul a new heart.

Many would argue that it was not an Old Testament concept that was a current reality but rather a prophecy given of what God would do in the future.

Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

It's up for debate I suppose.


I know what you are getting at. Our identity is everything. Yet, you said that God does not dwell with darkness. I said sin was darkness and that believers have sin, yet God dwells in them. If he can dwell in a believer that has sin, why can't he dwell in a believer that has a demon?

What part of my flesh is God dwelling in?



Luke 13:15-17
15 But the Lord answered him and said, "You hypocrites, does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the stall, and lead him away to water him? 16 "And this woman, a daughter of Abraham as she is, whom Satan has bound for eighteen long years, should she not have been released from this bond on the Sabbath day?"
NASB

This woman was a daughter of Abraham. She was a believer. Yet, she had been bound 18 years.


I think it a far stretch to state this woman was a born again believer.


I will go one step further. Deliverance is for the believer! Not the unbeliever. Why deliver a child of Satan so he can go back to Satan?

Paul didn't have any problem getting rid of the spirit of divination out of the girl, yet the Scriptures do not declare her as being a believer.

Brother Mark
Jun 16th 2008, 07:36 PM
I'll have to finish the parts I didn't read. The parts I did mentioned nothing of Christians being under the control of demons.

Yea. Read the rest of it. Though he will call it demonized and not controlled.



John 14:15-18

“If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

This Scripture indicates to me that all genuine believers will be indwelt by His Spirit.There is a difference between being indwelt and filled. That is why the Ephesians, who were indwelt, were given this command...

Eph 5:18-19
18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;
NASB

So while all believers are indwelt, I do not believe all believers are filled.


Your body is . . . your flesh is not. There is a difference between the body and the flesh. OK. In this thread, I am speaking of the body.


We war against principalities and powers who lie.;):lol:Yes we do! :D


So then you were not being controlled by a demon. You were simply being deceived by a demon. Would you not agree?Both. If one is deceived, is one being controlled?


I think the disobedience here is referring back to verse two . . .

2 Corinthians 10:2-6
But I beg you that when I am present I may not be bold with that confidence by which I intend to be bold against some, who think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

I think Paul is referring to the disobedience of other folks in the church that are not walking according to the Spirit.I am not sure I buy that. Because when "your obedience is complete" then I will deal with others. Why is their complete obedience necessary first?


Many would argue that it was not an Old Testament concept that was a current reality but rather a prophecy given of what God would do in the future.

Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

Here's the passage concerning Saul I was speaking about.

1 Sam 10:9-11

9 Then it happened when he turned his back to leave Samuel, God changed his heart; and all those signs came about on that day. 10 When they came to the hill there, behold, a group of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him mightily, so that he prophesied among them. 11 And it came about, when all who knew him previously saw that he prophesied now with the prophets, that the people said to one another, "What has happened to the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?"
NASB


What part of my flesh is God dwelling in?Does my flesh and body go together? Is God not in my body, yet my body commits sins?


I think it a far stretch to state this woman was a born again believer.She was a daughter of Abraham. Paul told us who they were. Not all who were born of Abraham were of Abraham. I think Jesus was saying this was a woman of faith.


Paul didn't have any problem getting rid of the spirit of divination out of the girl, yet the Scriptures do not declare her as being a believer.You are correct in that. But that was temporary for her, don't you think? He didn't do that for her. He did it so she would leave him alone. But the point I make is still good. Why would God set Satan's folks free?

Look at this passage.

Mark 7:24-30

24 And from there He arose and went away to the region of Tyre. And when He had entered a house, He wanted no one to know of it; yet He could not escape notice. 25 But after hearing of Him, a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit, immediately came and fell at His feet. 26 Now the woman was a Gentile, of the Syrophoenician race. And she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter. 27 And He was saying to her, "Let the children be satisfied first, for it is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." 28 But she answered and said to Him, "Yes, Lord, but even the dogs under the table feed on the children's crumbs." 29 And He said to her, "Because of this answer go your way; the demon has gone out of your daughter." 30 And going back to her home, she found the child lying on the bed, the demon having departed.
NASB

Deliverance is meant for the children not for the unbeliever.

fewarechosen
Jun 16th 2008, 07:42 PM
Let the children be satisfied first, for it is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs

first not only

Partaker of Christ
Jun 16th 2008, 07:43 PM
I believe that a born again Christian can give ground to the enemy. We can be externally influenced and oppressed, in areas that have not been surrendered to the Lord.

The enemy can cause us to loose our effectiveness and steal our peace, hope, joy. I believe we can lack faith (poor conscience) but yet still keep hold of 'The Faith'

I fully believe with all my heart, that a born again believer cannot be 'inwardly' possessed by demons.

We are spirit, soul and body. We are likened to a temple of The Holy Spirit:

Temple:
Spirit; Holy of holies (most holy place)
Soul; Holy place
Body; Outer court

All that enters the most holy place have to be covered by the blood.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

We are not our own, for we have been bought with a price.
Demons can possibly rob us, but can they rob God of us?
Can they bind God, and take His possessions (spoils)

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Brother Mark
Jun 16th 2008, 07:54 PM
Let the children be satisfied first, for it is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs

first not only

A dog is an unclean animal. Jesus considered her unclean until he saw her faith. Upon seeing her faith, her household became qualified for deliverance.

fewarechosen
Jun 16th 2008, 07:56 PM
A dog is an unclean animal. Jesus considered her unclean until he saw her faith. Upon seeing her faith, her household became qualified for deliverance.

that doesnt change first at all -- it doesnt say only

it would say only if thats what he said

Brother Mark
Jun 16th 2008, 08:00 PM
that doesnt change first at all -- it doesnt say only

it would say only if thats what he said

He went on to qualify first and said this...

Mark 7:27
for it is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."
NASB

You don't give the children's bread to the dogs. And what was the bread? Deliverance. VR has already shown where God delivered and unbeliever through Paul. God does do it. It's just not his pattern.

He doesn't deliver babylonians. He delivers Israel!

fewarechosen
Jun 16th 2008, 08:12 PM
so mark in your understanding of this scripture

you see no difference if the word first or only would have been used ?

christ was given every word to speak from god

and here he spoke first -- not only

first means first -- if you wish to change that word thats up to you

if i say i finished the race first --that doesnt mean no one else finished it.

its deadly simple --- first

VerticalReality
Jun 16th 2008, 08:12 PM
There is a difference between being indwelt and filled. That is why the Ephesians, who were indwelt, were given this command...

Eph 5:18-19
18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;
NASB

So while all believers are indwelt, I do not believe all believers are filled.

If water is in a cup does it not both indwell and fill that cup? It seems we getting into a play on words. I personally believe there is a difference between the Spirit indwelling someone and comeing upon them to empower them for service, but I don't really see in a difference other than a play on words between indwelling and filling.


OK. In this thread, I am speaking of the body.

We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. However, is your flesh with all its wickedness the temple that the Holy Spirit is indwelling. The same flesh that can do nothing but sin? It sounds as if you are not taking into account the totality of the flesh. The flesh is not the body and the body not the flesh. The flesh is enmity against God and its desires are nothing but of the world. That is why it must be crucified. However, you aren't physically crucifying your body when you crucify the flesh. They are not the same thing.


Both. If one is deceived, is one being controlled?

No. If someone walked up to you today and told you that you could fly if you jumped off that building would you lose control of your bodily functions and uncontrollable go running towards the edge of the building? No. Now, if you bought into the deception you would willingly choose to move in that direction, but the demon wouldn't physically be controlling your body. The man with the legion of demons physically lost control over his own body. The boy in Mark 9 physically lost control of his own body.


I am not sure I buy that. Because when "your obedience is complete" then I will deal with others. Why is their complete obedience necessary first?

What would you propose he means?




Here's the passage concerning Saul I was speaking about.

1 Sam 10:9-11

9 Then it happened when he turned his back to leave Samuel, God changed his heart; and all those signs came about on that day. 10 When they came to the hill there, behold, a group of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him mightily, so that he prophesied among them. 11 And it came about, when all who knew him previously saw that he prophesied now with the prophets, that the people said to one another, "What has happened to the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?"
NASB


Is just a changing of one's heart all that goes into being born again of the Spirit?


Does my flesh and body go together? Is God not in my body, yet my body commits sins?

Your body is subject to your flesh if you are not renewed to the truth and choose to accept it. However, they are not synonomous.


She was a daughter of Abraham. Paul told us who they were. Not all who were born of Abraham were of Abraham. I think Jesus was saying this was a woman of faith.

If they were born again of the Spirit did they then go to be with God upon their death?


You are correct in that. But that was temporary for her, don't you think?

I'm not sure. It's hard to say without speculating. I suppose without having the Spirit of God with her she would be mighty susceptible to such a spirit returning.


He didn't do that for her. He did it so she would leave him alone. But the point I make is still good. Why would God set Satan's folks free?

That's another issue up for debate. Does God just give authority for us to walk in or do we have to wait until He says to use it? Some would give the Peter argument when he stated, "Silver and gold have I none, but what I have . . . "

They would say that God gave Peter and the rest of His disciples the power to heal all the sick and cast out demons in all who need it.



Mark 7:24-30

24 And from there He arose and went away to the region of Tyre. And when He had entered a house, He wanted no one to know of it; yet He could not escape notice. 25 But after hearing of Him, a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit, immediately came and fell at His feet. 26 Now the woman was a Gentile, of the Syrophoenician race. And she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter. 27 And He was saying to her, "Let the children be satisfied first, for it is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." 28 But she answered and said to Him, "Yes, Lord, but even the dogs under the table feed on the children's crumbs." 29 And He said to her, "Because of this answer go your way; the demon has gone out of your daughter." 30 And going back to her home, she found the child lying on the bed, the demon having departed.
NASB

Deliverance is meant for the children not for the unbeliever.


I'm not sure I can build a doctrine off what you shown here. I've shown Scripture that declare that unbelievers can be delivered. The Centurion's servant was not shown to be a believer either. The boy in Mark 9 was not shown to be a believer. There was faith present in those examples, but the object of the deliverance was not a born again person by what we can tell.

Brother Mark
Jun 16th 2008, 08:13 PM
so mark in your understanding of this scripture

you see no difference if the word first or only would have been used ?

christ was given every word to speak from god

and here he spoke first -- not only

first means first -- if you wish to change that word thats up to you

if i say i finished the race first --that doesnt mean no one else finished it.

its deadly simple --- first

I already said it didn't mean only. Like I mentioned before, VR has already given an example of an unbeliever being delivered. But Jesus did say it's not good to give the bread (deliverance) meant for the children to the dogs. That's why Paul waited many days before casting out the spirit of the woman who bothered him.

Brother Mark
Jun 16th 2008, 08:58 PM
If water is in a cup does it not both indwell and fill that cup? It seems we getting into a play on words. I personally believe there is a difference between the Spirit indwelling someone and comeing upon them to empower them for service, but I don't really see in a difference other than a play on words between indwelling and filling.

I think there is a big difference. Why would Paul tell the Ephesians, already indwelt to be filled, if they were the same? I think the early church was indwelt in John and filled in Acts 2.


We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. However, is your flesh with all its wickedness the temple that the Holy Spirit is indwelling. The same flesh that can do nothing but sin? It sounds as if you are not taking into account the totality of the flesh. The flesh is not the body and the body not the flesh. The flesh is enmity against God and its desires are nothing but of the world. That is why it must be crucified. However, you aren't physically crucifying your body when you crucify the flesh. They are not the same thing.

I understand what you are saying. But my flesh doesn't manifest without my body going along. If I fornicate, it's not just my flesh, it's my body doing it too! That's the point Paul makes about my body being the temple and to therefor, not be one with a prostitute.


No. If someone walked up to you today and told you that you could fly if you jumped off that building would you lose control of your bodily functions and uncontrollable go running towards the edge of the building? No. Now, if you bought into the deception you would willingly choose to move in that direction, but the demon wouldn't physically be controlling your body. The man with the legion of demons physically lost control over his own body. The boy in Mark 9 physically lost control of his own body.

I understand the point. That's why I draw a distinction in severity. One that is deceived is under control of the deceiver. However, we are not deceived in all areas.


What would you propose he means?

That when one is obedient from the heart, then the enemy we are warring against will be punished. He no longer will have access and have to leave. Repent, believe the truth and they will have no legal right to stay.


Is just a changing of one's heart all that goes into being born again of the Spirit?

A new heart is being born again. In the new testament, we also get the indwelling of the Spirit. Saul prophesied when he got a new heart. He also had the Spirit of God on him. Doesn't that qualify as being born again?


Your body is subject to your flesh if you are not renewed to the truth and choose to accept it. However, they are not synonomous.

OK. But the point is, that the body is involved in sin, and God indwells the body.


If they were born again of the Spirit did they then go to be with God upon their death?

Rom 4:9-13

9 Is this blessing then upon the circumcised, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say, "Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness." 10 How then was it reckoned? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be reckoned to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
NASB

And when the Pharisees said they were born of Abraham, John said this...

Matt 3:8-10
8 "Therefore bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance; 9 and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves,' We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you, that God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.
NASB

Jesus was even more pointed.

John 8:39-44
39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 "You are of your father the devil,
NASB

When Jesus said someone was a daughter of Abraham, he was saying she had faith and was a child of God.


I'm not sure. It's hard to say without speculating. I suppose without having the Spirit of God with her she would be mighty susceptible to such a spirit returning.

If she repented, she may have stayed free. But Jesus teaches that when a spirit is driven out, if the house remains, the spirit goes back with 7 others. Paul endured with patience this woman for many days. I think in mercy he delayed because he didn't want the latter part of this woman to be worse than the first. But as you say, it is speculation.


That's another issue up for debate. Does God just give authority for us to walk in or do we have to wait until He says to use it? Some would give the Peter argument when he stated, "Silver and gold have I none, but what I have . . . "

To one begging at the temple of prayer? Of course, this man was healed not set free from demonic influence.


They would say that God gave Peter and the rest of His disciples the power to heal all the sick and cast out demons in all who need it.

But the message is the same. Repent first. Many are healed without repentance. But Jesus gave a dire warning concerning demonic healing without also tearing down the house they were in. The danger is the latter state is worse than the original state.


Luke 10:16-20
16 "The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me."

17 And the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." 18 And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19 "Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall injure you. 20 "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven."
NASB

If we read before this passage, they were told to wipe the dust off their feet if they were not received.


I'm not sure I can build a doctrine off what you shown here. I've shown Scripture that declare that unbelievers can be delivered. The Centurion's servant was not shown to be a believer either. The boy in Mark 9 was not shown to be a believer. There was faith present in those examples, but the object of the deliverance was not a born again person by what we can tell.

The centerion's servant was under authority of the one asking for his deliverance. God often heals those under authority. The boy in Mark 9 under the authority of his Dad. The woman I pointed out earlier got a demonic deliverance for her kid that was under her authority.

I never argued they couldn't be delivered. Just that deliverance was meant for the children not the unbeliever. As FAC pointed out earlier, it's to the believer first.

ShirleyFord
Jun 16th 2008, 09:14 PM
Where do we find the Apostles casting demons out of Christians anywhere in Acts, Paul's epistles or anywhere else in the NT?

Nowhere.

Going back to the day of Penticost in the book of Acts, if Christians needed to be delivered of demons after they were saved, why didn't Peter and the rest of the disciples hold a deliverance ministry for those 3000 Jews who were saved that day?

They all certainly would have been filled with all kind of demons, if we go by these deliverance ministry experts tell us: hatred, murder, etc., that would have needed to have been cast out before they could have walked in the victory of their salvation.

Look at what Peter said to them before they were saved:

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Apparently though, Peter didn't think that they were filled with demons that needed to be cast out. There is no mention of these 3000 Jews or all of the other multitudes of Jews who were saved throughout the book of Acts, ever having to be delivered further from what they had done against the Lord.

What about the Gentile Christians after they were saved and became part of the Church?

They served idols before they were saved:

1 Cor 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

We find Paul casting demons out of one unsaved people:

Acts 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

And once he cast the spirit of divination out of her, she was completely delivered. And she didn't have to go back time and time again to get layers and layers of that demon cast out of her, as is the case with many of the deliverance ministries today.

I know Christians who havehad deliverance for all kinds of demons for over 30 years. And they still are not free or so their pastor tells them. He keeps finding "a root of biterness", "anger", "the demon of slothfulness", "the demon of gluttony" and all sorts of things in them. And they still burp up demons, and vomit trash cans of demons during the "deliverance" and when the demons become active and speak out of them they claim.

What these preachers are calling demons is actually our old flesh that we must crucify that is a life-long process of sanctification.


Shirley

VerticalReality
Jun 16th 2008, 09:52 PM
I think there is a big difference. Why would Paul tell the Ephesians, already indwelt to be filled, if they were the same? I think the early church was indwelt in John and filled in Acts 2.

Could you explain the difference?

Indwelt = Holy Spirit lives in you

Filled = Holy Spirit fills what He already lives in?

I'm not sure I understand where you're going with this . . .

I understand it as being indwelled or filled with the Holy Spirit and then continuously being empowered/anointed to do His will. It is the empowering that we need to come upon us in order to do what He would have us do. I don't know if I take the Ephesians Scripture as meaning the Holy Spirit leaks out of us continuously and we have to ask for another filling. I believe the Holy Spirit is always with us. It sounds to me like we are just having a little confusion based upon terminology here.


I understand what you are saying. But my flesh doesn't manifest without my body going along. If I fornicate, it's not just my flesh, it's my body doing it too! That's the point Paul makes about my body being the temple and to therefor, not be one with a prostitute.

Things manifest from the spiritual into the physical with the body doing something also, and that is the point I'm trying to make. That point is only that they are not the same. God may dwell in the temple that is our body. But He doesn't dwell in our flesh. The flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh and these are contrary to one another.


I understand the point. That's why I draw a distinction in severity. One that is deceived is under control of the deceiver. However, we are not deceived in all areas.

I suppose I could see what you're saying if a person has basically invited the demon into them to have control. Perhaps the demon has convinced the individual of some sort of deception and the person has given over complete control. However, I would have a difficult time believing such a person was born again and filled with God's Spirit. It would take a lot of deception for a person to be that far gone, and it would be hard to imagine a person that deceived knowing the truth of God's Son.


That when one is obedient from the heart, then the enemy we are warring against will be punished. He no longer will have access and have to leave. Repent, believe the truth and they will have no legal right to stay.

That could be possible. I'm not 100% on it, but it could be.


A new heart is being born again. In the new testament, we also get the indwelling of the Spirit. Saul prophesied when he got a new heart. He also had the Spirit of God on him. Doesn't that qualify as being born again?

I've inquired about the possibility before and I would say it could be. I've questioned the teaching that all folks under the Old Covenant were dead spiritually based upon Ephesians 2:1-2 that says we were dead in our trespasses, but Jesus comments to His disciples in the garden before He was crucified that their spirit was willing but the flesh was weak. How, according to this "all folks before Jesus went to the cross were dead spiritually" teaching, were the disciples spirit willing and the flesh weak? If their spirit was supposed to be dead since Jesus had not been glorified yet how in the world is it now willing in Matthew 26?


OK. But the point is, that the body is involved in sin, and God indwells the body.

But will God tolerate a body that practices sin? I don't believe so. We can grieve the Spirit of God, and the reason for that is because the Spirit of God cannot tolerate wickedness.


When Jesus said someone was a daughter of Abraham, he was saying she had faith and was a child of God.

So your argument is based on severity of the oppression it seems . . .

My argument here is how can someone be so far gone under the influence of demonic oppression that they have no control over themselves and still be considered born again and a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ? How is that possible?


To one begging at the temple of prayer? Of course, this man was healed not set free from demonic influence.

I don't think it matters. We're called to set the captive free whether that be a healing or the casting out of demons.


But the message is the same. Repent first. Many are healed without repentance. But Jesus gave a dire warning concerning demonic healing without also tearing down the house they were in. The danger is the latter state is worse than the original state.

Jesus never required the man at the Pool of Bethesda to repent first. He healed the man and simply told him to go and sin no more lest something worse come upon him. This message implies that sin is what led this man to his condition, and if he doesn't want something worse he needs to refrain from sinning.


The centerion's servant was under authority of the one asking for his deliverance. God often heals those under authority. The boy in Mark 9 under the authority of his Dad. The woman I pointed out earlier got a demonic deliverance for her kid that was under her authority.

I'm aware of the authority aspect, but I still stand on the point that those who received did not have to be born again or Spirit-filled.


I never argued they couldn't be delivered. Just that deliverance was meant for the children not the unbeliever. As FAC pointed out earlier, it's to the believer first.

But then some would argue that if salvation is for all then why not deliverance? Why is it so easy for us to say that Jesus died for all and that His sacrifice is for all but that His healing and deliverance is not for all as well? In the Greek the term for all those is the same. Salvation is spiritual and physical healing.

Brother Mark
Jun 16th 2008, 10:09 PM
Could you explain the difference?

Indwelt = Holy Spirit lives in you

Filled = Holy Spirit fills what He already lives in?

I'm not sure I understand where you're going with this . . .

Filled is the same as being baptized in the Spirit. In Acts 2, the word baptized and filled are used interchangeably. Does that make sense? I see being filled as the Holy Spirit coming upon us to empower us.



I understand it as being indwelled or filled with the Holy Spirit and then continuously being empowered/anointed to do His will. It is the empowering that we need to come upon us in order to do what He would have us do. I don't know if I take the Ephesians Scripture as meaning the Holy Spirit leaks out of us continuously and we have to ask for another filling. I believe the Holy Spirit is always with us. It sounds to me like we are just having a little confusion based upon terminology here. Peter was filled more than once in Acts.


Things manifest from the spiritual into the physical with the body doing something also, and that is the point I'm trying to make. That point is only that they are not the same. God may dwell in the temple that is our body. But He doesn't dwell in our flesh. The flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh and these are contrary to one another. I understand what you are saying. But many people say God won't share his temple with darkness. Yet, the temple sometimes performs dark deeds. The body does engage in sin and yet, God lives there.


I suppose I could see what you're saying if a person has basically invited the demon into them to have control. Perhaps the demon has convinced the individual of some sort of deception and the person has given over complete control. However, I would have a difficult time believing such a person was born again and filled with God's Spirit. It would take a lot of deception for a person to be that far gone, and it would be hard to imagine a person that deceived knowing the truth of God's Son. I don't see demonization as always one being controlled. For instance, in 2 cor 10, I see a stronghold where thoughts presented by the enemy is a habit in ones life. When one repents, and brings those thoughts into submission to Christ, Paul deals with the demons that is tormenting him. We haven't even gotten into Matthew 18 yet. But there it is also suggested that God will use tormenters to chastise us.


That could be possible. I'm not 100% on it, but it could be. Remember in Matt 18 where Jesus taught on forgiveness? The man grabbed another by the throat and then the king turned him over to the tormentors until all he owed (forgiveness) had been paid. Then he looked at Peter and said "So will my father do unto you unless you forgive one another from the heart". When someone gets angry and doesn't forgive, tormentors (IMO, demons) then turn them over and over. The thoughts of anger bash in and they cannot escape the torment. They have given the devil a place like what Paul warned against in Ephesians. God has turned them over until they forgive their brother.


I've inquired about the possibility before and I would say it could be. I've questioned the teaching that all folks under the Old Covenant were dead spiritually based upon Ephesians 2:1-2 that says we were dead in our trespasses, but Jesus comments to His disciples in the garden before He was crucified that their spirit was willing but the flesh was weak. How, according to this "all folks before Jesus went to the cross were dead spiritually" teaching, were the disciples spirit willing and the flesh weak? If their spirit was supposed to be dead since Jesus had not been glorified yet how in the world is it now willing in Matthew 26?I think the difference is that the Holy Spirit indwells us in the new covenant. But in the old covenant, the Holy Spirit would come upon them. David said "Do not take your Spirit from me". Samson, would be filled with power when the Holy Spirit came upon him.


But will God tolerate a body that practices sin? I don't believe so. We can grieve the Spirit of God, and the reason for that is because the Spirit of God cannot tolerate wickedness.No. But practicing sin and having a stronghold are two different things. For instance, a lost man gets up in the morning thinking about how he can fulfill his fleshly desires. While a saved man with a stronghold gets up thinking about how he can fight the lust of the flesh today. One plans on how to fulfill his lust because he is lost. It is his practice to sin. The other, while me may sin every day, still makes it a practice to fight against the lust all day.


So your argument is based on severity of the oppression it seems . . .Somewhat.


My argument here is how can someone be so far gone under the influence of demonic oppression that they have no control over themselves and still be considered born again and a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ? How is that possible?Who then controls the stronghold? We do not war against flesh. If our flesh controls it, then why is it a war?

However, we must also realize that no temptation taken us where God does not give us an escape. So control is not the word I would choose. Instead, I would choose deceived. When one knows the truth, they get free! An example, when Peter was full of pride, scripture says Satan demanded to sift him. Demand is a strong word, but Satan, IMO, had a legal right to Peter because of his sin. Jesus pointed out Peter's sin and told him he would deny him. But Peter refused to believe Jesus because he was lifted up in his own eyes. He even saw himself as more loyal than the others and said "even though all these deny you, I won't". Satan sifted him. God provided a way of escape. But Peter didn't take it.


I don't think it matters. We're called to set the captive free whether that be a healing or the casting out of demons.I will agree we are called to set the captives free. It only matters in the sense of can a believer be a captive at some point in some way.


Jesus never required the man at the Pool of Bethesda to repent first. He healed the man and simply told him to go and sin no more lest something worse come upon him. This message implies that sin is what led this man to his condition, and if he doesn't want something worse he needs to refrain from sinning.Again, that was a healing and not of demonic stronghold. Though your argument holds water because of the woman you pointed out earlier. She didn't repent. However, Jesus often would say, when sin was an issue, go and sin no more, or don't sin unless something worse would come upon you. Anyway, repentance plays a key role in tearing down strongholds.


I'm aware of the authority aspect, but I still stand on the point that those who received did not have to be born again or Spirit-filled. OK.


But then would argue that if salvation is for all then why not deliverance? Why is it so easy for us to say that Jesus died for all and that His sacrifice is for all but that His healing and deliverance is not for all as well? In the Greek the term for all those is the same. Salvation is spiritual and physical healing.Deliverance is for all. But salvation first. First get saved, then get delivered. Certainly he healed many people that were not saved, though they had faith. However, when I see the reason for demonic influence in believers life, I see a big need for repentance before deliverance.

cross crusader
Jun 17th 2008, 12:19 AM
[quote=Brother Mark;1674571]
First get saved, then get delivered. quote]
Where in the Bible does it say that? please show me. here is the problem i have with that teaching, i was delivered at salvation.( the church needs to start teaching this as a whole so that new believers can know this from the beginning before they get confused with false doctrine of demons and heresies) i am no longer of this world. i am a part of the true vine. this tent that i live in is perishing. i am no longer subject to demons, or any other unclean thing that the church might try and tell me that i am. i am blessed and highly favored of GOd. DId Jesus have a demon? Did he need to go through a 7 step neil anderson program to get rid of all his demons that his ancestors brought upon him by practicing withcraft and worshipping idols? show me where Jesus had to go through a deliverance session. Because as the Bible states God is not a respector of persons. Look we can sit here an argue points of view for days, without one single solitary shred of biblical scripture proving that true born again Christians can have demons. Just give me one scripture reference. just one to prove these points being made that we can have a demon. just one.

By Faith
Jun 17th 2008, 12:46 AM
HI Fellow Consecrated:)

I am new and I was reading through this thread all though it is long lol... I will say I agree. No when you are truly saved you are living in the righteusness of God. If you look at the literal meaning of righteousness it means free from guilt or sin. One trick of the devil is condemnation that is why the bible speaks of no condemnation, because once you began to condemn yourself that is just giving the devil another way in because you turn away from Christ and towards your sin. That is why Jesus died on the cross. He became your sin and now it is paid in full. We as christians must repent&ask for forgiveness and go on but never take our eyes off Christ. Now a true Christian can not be possesed...I think a good person to look at is Job. The devil tried many ways to get to him but when the adversary attacks we just need to worship and as said before where God is the devil has no room to be there when God is there and vice versa. Another good example of this is when satan TRIED to tempt Jesus, but once he rebuked him Than the angels came. Now you can cast down spirits...because we are flesh we fall short of the Glory of God. The devil will attack but we must cast it out and worship because the 7 deadly sins (and we have already stated that sin is not of God it is of satan) happen in your mind and we know that if Jesus had to tell satan to get back so do we. But we still sin because if we said we didn't we take away from the glorious self sacrafice of Jesus on the cross for he died for our sins. The point I suppose I am trying to make is when you enter into the body of Christ...you walk different. Romans 10:9-10 tells exactly what we need to do to receive the free gift of salvation. We 1 must believe IN FAITH in our hearts, which means 1. we will be walking differently not doing the things that we did in the past, because if God is in our hearts than 2. We will talk differently (confess) the things that come out will not be of the world but the things of our new heart, which is in Christ. I hope this helps :)

servant of Lord
Jun 17th 2008, 04:44 AM
:hmm: HUM ??? :hmm:


well, I do know this, that demons are real. They certainly do exist and yes they do occupy withthin many people..

I have seen them reveal themselves...and it can shock you cause in some of them I would have never seen it unless it came out like it did...then some you can see ....but that is a whole different thread...

But, can they come into a born again believer...well, If that person has backslidden or has invited them into them in some ingornant way...I do belive this cause I have seen it..unless that person was never saved in first place...

I do know that demons do try to hinder us ...they come to kill, steal, and destroy...and they are after the children of God..they will do whatever to push your buttons..to cause you to stumble and tempt you with sin to fall from the walk with the Lord...
But this I know also...that greater is He then what is in this world..and that the name of Christ is above all things..all powers...and at His name they that are bound are delievered...

I have heard of christians who say themselves that they had a demon and did not know it....but they find out and get delievered from it..so, that is hard to understand sometimes for me...so, what are we to do..go to the word and if it is not there and then it is not true..right? right..

Did Jesus say, get behind me satan to peter ? why did he say that ? did He not say that when one is cast out that more come back trying to get in...It could be that it is a sprititual battle with these things..that we are to be as wise as a serpent and meek as a dove? beware and tests all spirits..be careful what you bring in to your home...and into your heart..test all things..

But, I have always heard that a demon and the Holy SPirit can not dwell together..and I certainly can see that as the TRUTH....for the Holy Spirit is great ...and powerful...and all born again believers are filled with the spirit...so, that is a HUM??? I would rather choose to say that no, if one is truely born again and filled with the SPirit then NO, he or she can not be possessed with a demon..maybe they are they ones in sheeps clothing that the bible talks about ...you know the ones that are possessed..I have seen backslidden christians come and get prayer and they end up throwing up and stuff...they have a demon..I have seen this happen..maybe they were never saved..

I do know that when I got saved that I know that I was set free ....I was born again...but that feeling later became a battle to keep...the flesh and the spirit war withthin themselves..but glory to God ..HE is my shepard and He leads me home..

that is my two cents..proably did not make much sense..but there it is...God Bless..:D

By Faith
Jun 17th 2008, 04:54 AM
Amen Family,

Here is some food for thought...concerning the holy spirit and indwelling.

Ephesians 4:29-30...do not grieve the Holy Spirit. The spirit doesn't leave you just began to grieve it and it can't do the good works that it was created to do in your life. We don't even tap into all of the Holy Spirit that we have as Christians...or I would have seen one of yall removining moutains on the 10:00 news lol. But through this we are able to understand that we don't tap into the full power of the Holy Spirit so it remains doormant until we build up our Faith to release it. I know that I am getting close and before I leave this earth I will remove a moutain if it is God's will. But I am performing my fair share of miricales being used as a vessel of the Holy Spirit. I am determined to tap into as much of it I can and to get that mustard seed and than some Faith.

sojourner52
Jun 17th 2008, 05:16 AM
the Holy Spirit is "He" not it - He is not a force. He is the third person of the trinity.

He indwells the believer, He is the Comforter that Jesus promised. He is never "dormant." a force cannot be "grieved."

if one is born again, then the Holy Spirit is there and when we sin, He will convict us of our sin. He will point us always to Jesus Christ.

watchinginawe
Jun 17th 2008, 05:37 AM
the Holy Spirit is "He" not it - He is not a force. He is the third person of the trinity. Yes, I think we all agree. We should all learn to type and think "He". However, consider:

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

So John the Baptist called the Holy Ghost "it" and didn't get rebuked for it (at least in the King James). ;)

God Bless!

ShirleyFord
Jun 17th 2008, 05:47 AM
I watched how demons took over my husband when he was drunk the 27 years that he was an alcoholic. He was out of his mind doing things that he wouldn't think of doing when he was sober. And everything he did was total destruction. He reminded me of the Gadarean demonic.

He tried everything he knew to stop. He repeated the sinners prayer so many times, joined so many different churches, baptized so many times. Kept getting saved over and over. Nothing seemed to work. After awhile I really wondered if there was any help anywhere that could help my husband and set him free. And I kept coming back to the fact that my husband wasn't truly saved. But when God saved him, he would also be delivered.



I heard of John Wimber and Derek Prince in the early 1970s through a close friend of mine who had a degrees in the Bible and Psycology. Soon after I met her she told me that what my husband needed to free him of the alchohol was inner healing. She believed that he was already saved. And she began supplying me with books by Wimber and Prince.

At about the same time we were introduced to AA. I went to all of the open meetings of AA with my husband that he would go to. And I got all of the AA literature that I could find and of course the bible of AA, Bill Wilson's Blue Book. I joined the AA group for non-drinking spouses.

It wasn't long before it seemed to me that John Wimber and Derek Prince were teaching the same principles of inner healing as AA. My friend confirmed to me that they were but the big difference was that AA was a secular inner healing organization while Wimber and Prince were Christians teaching inner healing from the Bible.

But I couldn't grasp all that I was learning I suppose because I couldn't find what any of them taught in the Bible. Oh, I understood about anger, depression, rejection, and all of those things that are works of the flesh. But what I couldn't find in the Bible was that a person needed inner healing after he was saved to be set totally free from the past and his old life. Nor could I find anyone praying for or ministering deliverance to anyone to get rid of those works of the flesh. Yet I still made myself dig and study and research everything I could get my hands on on inner healing.

Since my friend was so knowledgeable about inner healing and felt the Lord calling her into a inner healing deliverance ministry of some sort, I ask her to minister to my husband. She was one of only a few of my friends that my husband liked and respected. But she told me that she couldn't until he asked her to. That with inner healing that a person had to want to be free of the demons before they could be ministered deliverance and be set free. She admitted that she wouldn't know what to do with my husband when he was drunk and out of his mind.

But Praise God, when the Lord got ahold of my husband who was so drunk in the dark wee hours of the morning of April 22, 1989 on a ditch bank in the woods on our farm, He saved him, sobered him up and delivered him instantly. And my husband told me that he took the full glass whiskey bottle that he had just opened and threw it as far as he could. And he heard it crash in the distance against one of those huge pine trees.

And he has been sober ever since. Hasn't had a drop of any alchohol, not even beer. And hasn't suffered the first withdrawal and says he has never even been tempted once.

When God does the work, it is complete! And it last!


Shirley

Brother Mark
Jun 17th 2008, 01:28 PM
[quote=Brother Mark;1674571]
First get saved, then get delivered. quote]
Where in the Bible does it say that? please show me. here is the problem i have with that teaching, i was delivered at salvation.( the church needs to start teaching this as a whole so that new believers can know this from the beginning before they get confused with false doctrine of demons and heresies) i am no longer of this world. i am a part of the true vine. this tent that i live in is perishing. i am no longer subject to demons, or any other unclean thing that the church might try and tell me that i am. i am blessed and highly favored of GOd. DId Jesus have a demon? Did he need to go through a 7 step neil anderson program to get rid of all his demons that his ancestors brought upon him by practicing withcraft and worshipping idols? show me where Jesus had to go through a deliverance session. Because as the Bible states God is not a respector of persons. Look we can sit here an argue points of view for days, without one single solitary shred of biblical scripture proving that true born again Christians can have demons. Just give me one scripture reference. just one to prove these points being made that we can have a demon. just one.

Have you read the whole thread? 2 Cor 10 seems sufficient evidence to me. But I gave more scriptures in my replies above and in the next post as well.

Brother Mark
Jun 17th 2008, 01:39 PM
I figure I might as well throw Matthew 18 out there now.

Matt 18:21-35

21 Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a certain king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24 "And when he had begun to settle them, there was brought to him one who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26 "The slave therefore falling down, prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me, and I will repay you everything.' 27 "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28 "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.' 29 "So his fellow slave fell down and began to entreat him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.' 30 "He was unwilling however, but went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31 "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 "Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you entreated me. 33 'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, even as I had mercy on you?' 34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 "So shall My heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."
NASB

This parable was pointed at Peter, a saved man. Some will say it's about the afterlife, yet no death is mentioned. And the man is alive and able to forgive. The first man was forgiven of all his debt (saved). We know lost people are not forgive of all their debt! After not forgiving his fellow slave, the king called him back and said he would be tormented until he paid all that he owed. Well, what did he owe? To forgive his fellow slave. God doesn't undo forgiveness. But a new sin had occurred. God, moved with anger, turned him over to the torturers until he sould repay all that was owed, i.e. until he submitted and forgives his fellow slave.

Then looking at Peter he said "So shall my heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart".

Who are the torturers? I think they are demons. For this reason, we see Paul speak of Satan and forgiveness and anger in several passages.

Eph 4:26-27
26 Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27 and do not give the devil an opportunity.
NASB

When Saul got angry with David, he let the sun go down on his anger. The next day, an evil spirit (a torturer) from God came on him. Now people can argue that Saul wasn't saved (I believe he was) or that he didn't have the holy Spirit (he didn't). But this passage seems to illustrate well what Jesus was speaking about in Matthew 18 and Paul was speaking about in Ephesians 4.

Paul also mentioned Satan and forgiveness in Corinthians.

2 Cor 2:10-11
10 But whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 in order that no advantage be taken of us by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his schemes.
NASB

The enemy can take advantage of a saved man who does not forgive. Matthew 18 illustrates it.

Now, having said all that, if you wish to put the torturer on the shoulder of a believer, or outside of his home, or in his body, or where ever, that is fine. But the point is, God will use the enemy to torment his children in order to bring about repentance. He did the same thing with Babylon, the enemy of Israel. Why would he not also use my enemies to chastise me?

Brother Mark
Jun 17th 2008, 01:51 PM
I watched how demons took over my husband when he was drunk the 27 years that he was an alcoholic. He was out of his mind doing things that he wouldn't think of doing when he was sober. And everything he did was total destruction. He reminded me of the Gadarean demonic.

.
.
.
When God does the work, it is complete! And it last!


Shirley


When God saves a man, often like Israel, one or two major kings get knocked in the head right off the bat. For instance, when Israel came out of Egypt, there were two kings that came against them right away. They were victorious over both kings. However, God did not lead them to Canaan immediately for they were not yet ready for war. But it is quite common for a saved man to have immediate victory over 1 or 2 kings upon salvation. Yet, still these folks will have other issues that God will deal with at a later time. We still have to fight to take Canaan.

obeytheword
Jun 17th 2008, 01:54 PM
[quote=Brother Mark;1674571]
First get saved, then get delivered. quote]
Where in the Bible does it say that? please show me. here is the problem i have with that teaching, i was delivered at salvation.( the church needs to start teaching this as a whole so that new believers can know this from the beginning before they get confused with false doctrine of demons and heresies) i am no longer of this world. i am a part of the true vine. this tent that i live in is perishing. i am no longer subject to demons, or any other unclean thing that the church might try and tell me that i am. i am blessed and highly favored of GOd. DId Jesus have a demon? Did he need to go through a 7 step neil anderson program to get rid of all his demons that his ancestors brought upon him by practicing withcraft and worshipping idols? show me where Jesus had to go through a deliverance session. Because as the Bible states God is not a respector of persons. Look we can sit here an argue points of view for days, without one single solitary shred of biblical scripture proving that true born again Christians can have demons. Just give me one scripture reference. just one to prove these points being made that we can have a demon. just one.

Again - I believe we are making a rather large mountain out of something. Does it truly matter if a believer can be POSESSED? Is it not enough to know that they can be influenced rather strongly - and quite literally taken out of the "fight"?

Having said that - One interesting point to think on...

In the early church - many writings confirm that before a new believer was baptized, in many cases they underwent multiple exorcisms. This would sometimes stretch into several months worth of time where they were delivered over and over. This was to ensure that the person being baptized did not have any demonic strongholds in their life.

So - why is this not demonstrated clearly in scripture? Jesus could discern the level of faith, or the presence of demonic influence in a person. This is demonstrated in many places. Likewise the Apostles could discern the level of faith in an individual. (See Acts 14:8-10 for one example). I personally believe this indicates that through the spirit they could TELL if a person had any need of an exorcism of any kind. After the Apostles - the early church would simply go through multiple exorcisms to make sure of the same thing the hard way.

Now - what is done in relation to this today? Nothing. The only requirement in most churches is saying "I believe in Jesus" or something similar. I am not trying to belittle the churches, but the vast majority of them will basically baptize anyone who says they believe. So a new believer still has many strongholds over their life - in most cases, they undergo exactly no counceling, training, etc BEFORE they are baptized - and they also in most cases are taught they are now free of demonic influence in their lives. They are taught that with Jesus they can overcome.

While this is true, the simple fact is that they will STILL have demonic strongholds on their life. In greed, gossip, selfishness, lust, anger, unforgiveness, etc. At what point are these strongholds knocked down - so the person can enter into the abundant life?


Certainly not saying that all the deliverance ministries out there are legit. Many are certainly not from what I have seen - but the need of deliverance - EVEN WITHIN the church is very very real.

Perhaps a TRUE believer will not need this, but who among us truly KNOWS who is a real believer, and not? I am not qualified to judge for sure - and because of that, i will not tell a "believer" they cannot be possessed, or assume a "Christian" cannot be possessed.

Be Blessed!

ShirleyFord
Jun 17th 2008, 04:05 PM
I figure I might as well throw Matthew 18 out there now.

Matt 18:21-35


This parable was pointed at Peter, a saved man. Some will say it's about the afterlife, yet no death is mentioned. And the man is alive and able to forgive. The first man was forgiven of all his debt (saved). We know lost people are not forgive of all their debt! After not forgiving his fellow slave, the king called him back and said he would be tormented until he paid all that he owed. Well, what did he owe? To forgive his fellow slave. God doesn't undo forgiveness. But a new sin had occurred. God, moved with anger, turned him over to the torturers until he sould repay all that was owed, i.e. until he submitted and forgives his fellow slave.

Then looking at Peter he said "So shall my heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart".

Who are the torturers? I think they are demons.

Hi Mark,

Are you saying that Jesus is saying to Peter that if he doesn't forgive a brother for a debt owed him which the brother refuses to pay then He will turn him over to demons to control and possess him?

We need to go back to what Jesus had said starting in v. 15 to see what Peter was asking Jesus and His answer to Peter in the parable He gave:

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Then Peter asked Jesus the question in v. 21, "Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?"

Undoubtedly, Peter's question has to do with what Jesus had just told them in v. 21 when we look at the parable that Jesus gave him to answer his question.

If the brother in v. 15 ask the brother he has done wrong for forgiveness, then the brother that has been wronged must forgive him. Peter wants to know how many times is he to forgive his brother who does him wrong and ask for forgiveness and his brother wrongs him again over and over but each time ask him for forgiveness. He is asking if there comes a time and a limit to how many times he is to forgive a brother in such cases, "til seven times?"

But Jesus answers and says in v. 22, "I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven."

The king in the parable is Jesus. Notice the king didn't forgive his servant until he asked him to.

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

We all likewise owed a debt we could not pay. Like the king, Jesus paid the debt for us and forgave us the debt by not requiring us to have to suffer the penalty for our debt. All we have to do is what the kings servant did, ask Him and He forgives us and sets us free at that moment. He wipes the slate clean as the king did for the servant. There was nothing that the servant had to do after the king forgave him his debt to pay his debt himself.

Jesus is making clear to Peter that we are to forgive a brother who owes us a debt and cannot pay but ask us to forgive him his debt to show forth how that we have been forgiven the debt that we owed and could not pay.

But in the parable that Jesus gave, the servant didn't show the kings forgiveness of his own debt when his fellow servant ask him to forgive him the debt he owed him.

28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

The Bible doesn't say in this parable who the tormenters were that the king turned that evil servant over to. Jesus certainly didn't say that they were demons. It seems to me that they would have to do with the prison that the evil servant cast his fellow servant in. Prisoners often are tortured by prison officials who become their tormenters.

Jesus calls that servant "a wicked servant". He is not saved even though the king paid his debt in full as Jesus did at Calvary. We are not saved and forgiven until we accept Him and what He has already done for us.

Paul writes the Church at Corinth about the same thing in 1 Corinthians 6.

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

And he warns them:

8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And then he reminds them:

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.



Back to Matthew 18:

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

I believe John makes it clear in Revelation 20 and 21 that this occurs at the Second Coming of Christ at the final general judgement:

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Shirley

Brother Mark
Jun 17th 2008, 04:12 PM
Hi Mark,

Are you saying that Jesus is saying to Peter that if he doesn't forgive a brother for a debt owed him which the brother refuses to pay then He will turn him over to demons to control and possess him?

I think the words control and possess add much confusion to this discussion. I am saying that Jesus was saying to Peter that God would turn him over to the tormentors. It's all about forgiveness. Unforgiveness and anger go hand in hand.


The Bible doesn't say in this parable who the tormenters were that the king turned that evil servant over to. Jesus certainly didn't say that they were demons. It seems to me that they would have to do with the prison that the evil servant cast his fellow servant in. Prisoners often are tortured by prison officials who become their tormenters.

God said in Ephesians that we should not let the sun go down on our anger, lest we give the enemy a place. The enemy can have a place if we sin in anger. We see the same thing taught in 2 Cor. concerning forgiveness. And it is illustrated for us when Saul got angry with David and the next day, a tormentor from God was sent upon Saul.


Jesus calls that servant "a wicked servant". He is not saved even though the king paid his debt in full as Jesus did at Calvary. We are not saved and forgiven until we accept Him and what He has already done for us.

I know the line of thinking. But are you suggesting lost people have all their sins forgiven? The parable was about fellow slaves and Peter qualified. ;)

ShirleyFord
Jun 17th 2008, 05:08 PM
When God saves a man, often like Israel, one or two major kings get knocked in the head right off the bat. For instance, when Israel came out of Egypt, there were two kings that came against them right away. They were victorious over both kings. However, God did not lead them to Canaan immediately for they were not yet ready for war. But it is quite common for a saved man to have immediate victory over 1 or 2 kings upon salvation. Yet, still these folks will have other issues that God will deal with at a later time. We still have to fight to take Canaan.

Hi Mark,

I believe Canaan, the promise land of rest points to Jesus and His Promised Rest of Salvation that He provided for us at Calvary.

Jesus said, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (Matthew 11:28)

Only 2 Israelites who came out of Egypt and crossed the Red Sea entered the Rest that God had promised them in the promised land of Canaan: Joshua and Caleb.

Look what Joshua wrote before they crossed the Jordan River into the promised land.

Josh 1:13 Remember the word which Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, saying, The LORD your God hath given you rest, and hath given you this land.

Josh 1:15 Until the LORD have given your brethren rest, as he hath given you, and they also have possessed the land which the LORD your God giveth them: then ye shall return unto the land of your possession, and enjoy it, which Moses the LORD's servant gave you on this side Jordan toward the sunrising.


We enter Jesus salvation of rest through faith. He has already done the work.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Then Paul writes about sanctification after we are saved:

2 Corinthins 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

James goes on to say:

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

God chastises us but he doesn't pour out his wrath on us or turn us over to demons that we then must cast out.

This is how the writer of Hebrews says that God chastises us:

Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:



Shirley

Brother Mark
Jun 17th 2008, 05:14 PM
Hi Mark,

I believe Canaan, the promise land of rest points to Jesus and His Promised Rest that He provided for us at Calvary.

Indeed it does! Yet, we war to enter in just as they did.


We enter Jesus salvation of rest through faith. He has already done the work.

Correct. But Joshua still had to fight even though they were promised the land.


Then Paul writes about sanctification after we are saved:

2 Corinthins 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Exactly. This is how we enter into the rest and take Canaan.


James goes on to say:

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

God chastises us but he doesn't pour out his wrath on us or turn us over to demons that we then must cast out.

This is how the writer of Hebrews says that God chastises us:

Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Indeed! That is what 1 Cor 5 is all about too. God uses the enemy to chastise us as he did the Babylonians and Chaldeans to chastise Israel.

ShirleyFord
Jun 17th 2008, 07:20 PM
I think the words control and possess add much confusion to this discussion. I am saying that Jesus was saying to Peter that God would turn him over to the tormentors. It's all about forgiveness. Unforgiveness and anger go hand in hand.



God said in Ephesians that we should not let the sun go down on our anger, lest we give the enemy a place. The enemy can have a place if we sin in anger.

Thank you Mark for your response.

I'm very aware of your line of thinking. I first learned the basic of inner hearling from a Methodist pastor when I was in his Psychology class in 11th grade. After the first week, man I thought I had all of the answers to lifes problems that kept us from having a successful life. But my mom didn't think so and let me know it when I started pointing out all of her problems and what to do about them so she would be forever happy. ;)

And then learned the same thing but in much greater depth about inner healing through the Dale Carnegie Courses that were required training to remain employed for the office staff as well as the agents at the large insurance and investment firm where I began working at in 1970.

Shortly after completing the Dale Carnegie Training Program I was introduced to AA and Amway which taught the same basics of inner healing. The only difference was that these two organizations centered around specialized success in our present circumstances. AA promised to provide sobriety and then continued success through inner healing tools to keep the alchoholic sober. While Amway promised greater sales on the road to riches and complete wealth that God had promised us and not be tied down to a 9 - 5 job working for someone else stressed out for not having the money to pay our monthly bills.

The catch to both of these were:

In AA, you were forever dependant on your higher power, the AA organization and Bill Wilson and continue with your inner healing tools and go to meetings, purchase materials and whatever else the local organization ask you to do. The program offers no real hope, victory or freedom.

The same was the case in Amway. While our leaders talked about God and even quoted Scripture, it wasn't long until I realized that they made the Amway organization and its founders plus its current leaders at every level their god and the one that they wanted all of their members to follow. And the bible of Amway I soon learned were the books and tapes of the founders. And you were forever tied to and dependant to Amway and had to continue with their inner healing tools.

I find the same basic principles taught by Christian psychologists and deliverance ministers that I was introduced to way back in the 1970s





We see the same thing taught in 2 Cor. concerning forgiveness. And it is illustrated for us when Saul got angry with David and the next day, a tormentor from God was sent upon Saul.


You seem to be focusing on the evil spirit God sent to King Saul to interpret "tormenters" and "unforgiveness" in Matthew 18 and "strongholds" in Ephesians and "anger" in 2 Corinthians 10.

But when we read the account in 1 Samuel 15 and 16, we find that the evil spirit didn't come from a demon of anger and unforgiveness in Saul but it came when the Spirit of the Lord departed from him because of his disobedience to the Lord:

1 Sam 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil Spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Yes, Saul was angry at David and tried to kill him until he died according to the account in Chapters 18 and 19. Not only do deliverance ministers use this account to support their inner healing ministries of casting out demons out of Christians, some local AA organizations I have been have used Saul's evil spirit to say that the sober alcoholic has the same demonic demons of anger, hate and unforgiveness that must be dealt with before he can move on. Of course they used different methods of inner healing to deal with the demons.





I know the line of thinking. But are you suggesting lost people have all their sins forgiven?

That's what I believe Mark according to the parable of the king and how he forgave the servant completely of what the servant owed and what we find that Jesus did at Calvary for the entire world. God forgave us our debt when Jesus took our place and paid the debt for us:



Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

1 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

But we know nothing of precious, marvelous forgiveness until we come to him in faith and repentance and receive his forgiveness, cleansing and righteousness.

1 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;


Hebrews 2:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Shirley

Brother Mark
Jun 17th 2008, 08:04 PM
Thank you Mark for your response.

I'm very aware of your line of thinking. I first learned the basic of inner hearling from a Methodist pastor when I was in his Psychology class in 11th grade.

I have said nothing of inner healing so I think you might not understand what I am getting at.


In AA, you were forever dependant on your higher power, the AA organization and Bill Wilson and continue with your inner healing tools and go to meetings, purchase materials and whatever else the local organization ask you to do. The program offers no real hope, victory or freedom. Yet, Joshua had real victory and real hope.


You seem to be focusing on the evil spirit God sent to King Saul to interpret "tormenters" and "unforgiveness" in Matthew 18 and "strongholds" in Ephesians and "anger" in 2 Corinthians 10.

But when we read the account in 1 Samuel 15 and 16, we find that the evil spirit didn't come from a demon of anger and unforgiveness in Saul but it came when the Spirit of the Lord departed from him because of his disobedience to the Lord:Sure it did. There were two separate times that God turned a demon onto Saul.

1 Sam 18:8-10

8 Then Saul became very angry, for this saying displeased him; and he said, "They have ascribed to David ten thousands, but to me they have ascribed thousands. Now what more can he have but the kingdom?" 9 And Saul looked at David with suspicion from that day on.

10 Now it came about on the next day that an evil spirit from God came mightily upon Saul, and he raved in the midst of the house, while David was playing the harp with his hand, as usual; and a spear was in Saul's hand.
NASB

So, the next day, after allowing the sun to go down on his anger, an evil spirit found place on Saul, just as Paul warned in Ephesians.


Yes, Saul was angry at David and tried to kill him until he died according to the account in Chapters 18 and 19. Not only do deliverance ministers use this account to support their inner healing ministries of casting out demons out of Christians, some local AA organizations I have been have used Saul's evil spirit to say that the sober alcoholic has the same demonic demons of anger, hate and unforgiveness that must be dealt with before he can move on. Of course they used different methods of inner healing to deal with the demons.I have seen many truths abused throughout my lifetime. Doesn't make the truth any less truthful.


I know the line of thinking. But are you suggesting lost people have all their sins forgiven?
That's what I believe Mark according to the parable of the king and how he forgave the servant completely of what the servant owed and what we find that Jesus did at Calvary for the entire world. God forgave us our debt when Jesus took our place and paid the debt for us:God has not yet forgiven lost folks Shirley. Nor have they bowed the knee and asked for such forgiveness. Besides, the point is that Jesus looked directly at Peter and said the same fate awaited him if he didn't forgive. Jesus was speaking of brothers forgiving one another, and specifically, Peter and his saved brothers. That parable is about saved people in context.


Anyway, I think I have laid out a case for those that asked. I doubt you and I will agree. It was this truth that set me free of several strongholds in my life. But one doesn't have to know or believe as I have to be set free. For one can learn other truth and be set free without even understanding how God uses the enemy.

There are many other passages we could explore, but I am not sure it would be productive at this point. For as you might guess, my mind is rather made up and it seems yours is as well.

By Faith
Jun 17th 2008, 08:14 PM
Did you read the scripture in ephesians? That is what it says...You can grieve the Holy Spirit with your actions sojourner52. That is the written word of God. We can not go against that. With our own understandings.

You are correct the Holy Spirit is a He. Excuse my typo of "it." I am fully aware of him being the third member of the Holy Trinity.

lmwal931
Jun 18th 2008, 12:55 AM
do you have a obsessive compulsive addiction? i think that is a demon. it took 7 yrs to get,after my committment to GOD, to get rid of my oca. examples of oca alcoholism, money, sex, beating wife, smoking, stealing, crime, drugs, pedophile, murder,etc. there are many.

davidandme
Jun 19th 2008, 08:09 PM
A current believer has the God given right, not to follow Christ any more, if he/she choses to do so. But some one who is in the control of the devil can't be in Christ either. You can't serve two masters. The Bible says choose who you will serve. I once saw somebody that was demon possess, he supousely was a Christian but if you really knew him you would have known that he was in to new age stuff. I personaly saw some strage books in his room. Being possess by the devil is not a pretty sight. I don't believe that there is an example in the Bible of someone been a true Christian and been demon possess at the same time. God bless.

sojourner52
Jun 20th 2008, 01:37 PM
Faith,
sorry if I offended you - I didnt intend that. many people think of the Holy Spirit as "it" rather than "He" - I've even heard pastors do it! I just wanted to point that out.

yes, I have read the scripture you reference. that was my point. you cant grieve a force - you can grieve a person. the Holy Spirit is a person, not a force.

seamus414
Jun 20th 2008, 04:48 PM
what, if any, Scriptures declare that a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ can be under the control of a demon? Can anyone give me one example where a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ had a demon cast out of them?

Why do so many believe that both light and darkness can occupy the same space? Can someone who believes such a thing illustrate for me in the Scriptures where it proclaims that the Holy Spirit will fill and dwell in someone while this person has a demonic spirit also indwelling them?

I honestly do not know where in the world this sort of teaching came from.

I would think an apostate believer is subject to possession.

I have not read all the posts of this thread so I apologize if this has been spoken about already: aside from the above, I have no position on the matter yet. However, allow me to suggest the following: whilst justification is instant, sanctification is not. Sanctification occurs over the course of one's life and one becomes less sinful as time goes on. Before anyone jumps down my throad, I realize that Christ forgives out sin and we are not "sinful" per se, however we are sinful in as much as we still sin and need sanctification. To borrow Luther's analogy, saved men are piles of dung covered by snow. From the outside they look like beautifil white snow, but inside they are piles of dung. Sanctification progressively replaces the dung with the snow until a pile of snow is left.

My point: as we are not fully sanctified, is it possible for the not sanctified part of our souls to be possessed?