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Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 05:40 PM
I chose God the other day. God himself had nothing to do with it. I chose him out of my own free will because I have a righteous nature. :)

God's pretty lucky to have someone like me around. :saint:Those other poor slobs who weren't as righteous as I was to choose God are going to suffer. Oh well, they should have listened to me, so they're without excuse. Some people are just better than others, I guess.

So God will reward me for my works because they come from my own free will. In fact, I really don't need his power at all because I can accept him or reject him on my own any time I want to. So God is at my beck and call, not the other way around. ;)

Some people call me self-righteous, but at least I'm righteous and they're not. It's my own works that will save me, my own goodness, purity and righteous nature that gets me into heaven. It feels good to be this good. ;)

So I don't really know what this fuss about Christ's death on the cross is all about since I myself can choose to do right and wrong all by myself. I really don't even need to come to the cross for a thing because i can rely on my own will to keep me out of sins. Inf act, I don't pray much because God really can't do anything for me that i can't to for myself. It's me who leads me out of temptation and delivers me from evil. Why, I'm just about the best thing that came along in a long time.

So the only thing I pray for is that others can be as righteous as I am and decide on their own to believe in God as well. ;) But i guess that won't do any good either since their decision has to come from themselves without any power from you. So I guess you can't really help me there either, God. Oh well, I guess it's all based on the fact that some people are righteous and others aren't.

faithfulfriend
Jun 17th 2008, 06:16 PM
I chose God the other day. God himself had nothing to do with it. I chose him out of my own free will because I have a righteous nature. :)

God's pretty lucky to have someone like me around. :saint:Those other poor slobs who weren't as righteous as I was to choose God are going to suffer. Oh well, they should have listened to me, so they're without excuse. Some people are just better than others, I guess.

So God will reward me for my works because they come from my own free will. In fact, I really don't need his power at all because I can accept him or reject him on my own any time I want to. So God is at my beck and call, not the other way around. ;)

Some people call me self-righteous, but at least I'm righteous and they're not. It's my own works that will save me, my own goodness, purity and righteous nature that gets me into heaven. It feels good to be this good. ;)

So I don't really know what this fuss about Christ's death on the cross is all about since I myself can choose to do right and wrong all by myself. I really don't even need to come to the cross for a thing because i can rely on my own will to keep me out of sins. Inf act, I don't pray much because God really can't do anything for me that i can't to for myself. It's me who leads me out of temptation and delivers me from evil. Why, I'm just about the best thing that came along in a long time.

So the only thing I pray for is that others can be as righteous as I am and decide on their own to believe in God as well. ;) But i guess that won't do any good either since their decision has to come from themselves without any power from you. So I guess you can't really help me there either, God. Oh well, I guess it's all based on the fact that some people are righteous and others aren't.

Keep in mind that you may not completely understand the "other side" of the argument. Therefore some of your assumptions and concepts of the "other side" may not be correct or true. What one says predestination is may not be the same definition as Calvinistic predestination. What one says is righteousness may not be your definition of righteousness. What you feel is self-righteous may not be so at all.

Not trying to stir a debate, just want you to think is all. :spin:

Athanasius
Jun 17th 2008, 06:23 PM
I disagree with your straw man ad hominem ignoratium.

Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 06:55 PM
Keep in mind that you may not completely understand the "other side" of the argument. Therefore some of your assumptions and concepts of the "other side" may not be correct or true. What one says predestination is may not be the same definition as Calvinistic predestination. What one says is righteousness may not be your definition of righteousness. What you feel is self-righteous may not be so at all.

Not trying to stir a debate, just want you to think is all. :spin:

Actually since I used to be Arminian, then I think I have a pretty good understanding of what they believe. But I haven't yet met any Arminians who used to be Calvinists. So once a person sees God's sovereignty and know by whose power we can do anything, they rarely, if ever revert back from that knowledge. :)

Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 06:58 PM
I disagree with your straw man ad hominem ignoratium.

Then please explain where Arminians believe the decision to believe in God comes from;

1) Our sinful nature
2) Or the power of the Holy Spirit.

It's it's by the pwoer of the Holy Spirit then it doesn't come from man's will, but God's will. Otherwise you haven't proven that my comments are ad hominem and have thus accused me falsely.

Brother Mark
Jun 17th 2008, 07:01 PM
Actually since I used to be Arminian, then I think I have a pretty good understanding of what they believe. But I haven't yet met any Arminians who used to be Calvinists. So once a person sees God's sovereignty and know by whose power we can do anything, they rarely, if ever revert back from that knowledge. :)

Really? You know arminians that claim righteousness outside of Christ as your OP suggested?

You do know of course, that arminians reject the idea of righteousness outside of Christ. So your OP, is indeed, a straw man.

Athanasius
Jun 17th 2008, 07:03 PM
Then please explain where Arminians believe the decision to believe in God comes from;

1) Our sinful nature
2) Or the power of the Holy Spirit.

It's it's by the pwoer of the Holy Spirit then it doesn't come from man's will, but God's will. Otherwise you haven't proven that my comments are ad hominem and have thus accused me falsely.

Did I say I was an Arminian? I just find this entire thread to be a personal attack against all Arminians, an attack based in straw men presuppotions, and an attack, whether or not you say you were once Arminian, out of ignorance.

BrckBrln
Jun 17th 2008, 07:05 PM
While we are on the subject, is it safe to assume that Arminians believe that man has the final say in Salvation?

Brother Mark
Jun 17th 2008, 07:07 PM
While we are on the subject, is it safe to assume that Arminians believe that man has the final say in Salvation?

No. Men can will themselves all they want but only God determines when a man is saved. Only God saves a man. Yet, that does not remove man's choice from the equation for it is still "whosoever".

Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 07:09 PM
Did I say I was an Arminian? I just find this entire thread to be a personal attack against all Arminians, an attack based in straw men presuppotions, and an attack, whether or not you say you were once Arminian, out of ignorance.

The Pharisees felt attacked by Jesus. But that didn't make Jesus wrong or mean that Jesus shouldn't have said what he said. So until you can prove that the Arminian belief system doesn't claim that any part of our human nature can do the right thing, then my post stands as true.

Athanasius
Jun 17th 2008, 07:18 PM
The Pharisees felt attacked by Jesus. But that didn't make Jesus wrong or mean that Jesus shouldn't have said what he said. So until you can prove that the Arminian belief system doesn't claim that any part of our human nature can do the right thing, then my post stands as true.

Are you Jesus?
And did I not just say, "when did I say I was Arminian?"

Please, pay attention to what I'm saying and get off your high horse.

Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 07:23 PM
Are you Jesus?
And did I not just say, "when did I say I was Arminian?"

Please, pay attention to what I'm saying and get off your high horse.

Jesus is my role model whom the bible says we are supposed to imitate. Or don't you want me to become more Christ-like? :(If not, then who instead do you want me to follow?:confused

And I never said you were Arminian in one single post. You told me that I wasn't accurately representing Arminianism. So you need to give me facts and proof that I'm not or you are falsely accusing me. So let's hear facts, not attacks. Otherwise, this is not a productive conversation. :mad:

Brother Mark
Jun 17th 2008, 07:29 PM
Jesus is my role model whom the bible says we are supposed to imitate. Or don't you want me to become more Christ-like? :(If not, then who instead do you want me to follow?:confused

And I never said you were Arminian in one single post. You told me that I wasn't accurately representing Arminianism. So you need to give me facts and proof that I'm not or you are falsely accusing me. So let's hear facts, not attacks. Otherwise, this is not a productive conversation. :mad:

Oh, I don't think this conversation will be productive anyway, given the false premise of arminians thinking they are righteous before they are saved.

Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 07:30 PM
Are you Jesus?
And did I not just say, "when did I say I was Arminian?"

Please, pay attention to what I'm saying and get off your high horse.

And I got news for you, Xel, I cannot do anything righteous on my own because I'm nothing but a rotten sinner who doesn't deserve God's grace. I can't even take credit for being chosen before the creation of the world.

So you are incorrect; my I am very low, not high. So your comment is nothing more than jealousy since I don't claim to be righteous in any way, shape or form. But I would hope that you'd want other Christians to have God's righteousness in them or you are not loving them properly.

faithfulfriend
Jun 17th 2008, 07:32 PM
I can't even take credit for being chosen before the creation of the world.


How can you be sure that you've been chosen? How does one know?:confused

Athanasius
Jun 17th 2008, 07:36 PM
Jesus is my role model whom the bible says we are supposed to imitate. Or don't you want me to become more Christ-like? :(If not, then who instead do you want me to follow?:confused

And again I say... Are you Jesus? Because what you've done here is equated yourself with Jesus and the rest of us with pharisees. So, what be ye?



And I never said you were Arminian in one single post. You told me that I wasn't accurately representing Arminianism. So you need to give me facts and proof that I'm not or you are falsely accusing me. So let's hear facts, not attacks. Otherwise, this is not a productive conversation. :mad:

No, it really isn't.
Even if I were to give you facts.


And I got news for you, Xel, I cannot do anything righteous on my own because I'm nothing but a rotten sinner who doesn't deserve God's grace. I can't even take credit for being chosen before the creation of the world.

Did I say anyone was righteous outside of God? In fact I do seem to enjoy posting Romans 3:10-18 around here... Quite a lot.



So you are incorrect; my I am very low, not high. So your comment is nothing more than jealousy since I don't claim to be righteous in any way, shape or form. But I would hope that you'd want other Christians to have God's righteousness in them or you are not loving them properly.

Oh trust me, I'm quite far from jealous.
You're very prideful.

BrckBrln
Jun 17th 2008, 07:36 PM
How can you be sure that you've been chosen? How does one know?:confused

When a person has faith in Christ, then they can know they have been chosen.

Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 07:37 PM
When a person has faith in Christ, then they can know they have been chosen.

Amen, brother. :)

Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 07:42 PM
And again I say... Are you Jesus? Because what you've done here is equated yourself with Jesus and the rest of us with pharisees. So, what be ye?



No, it really isn't.
Even if I were to give you facts.



Did I say anyone was righteous outside of God? In fact I do seem to enjoy posting Romans 3:10-18 around here... Quite a lot.



Oh trust me, I'm quite far from jealous.
You're very prideful.

Where did I say I'm Jesus? :o Nowhere. So that is another false statement.

Proverbs 27:4, "Anger is cruel and fury overwhelming but who can stand before jealousy?"

Most people don't have too much problem admitting anger. But rare is the man who admits he's jealous. ;) So since i take zero credit for anything good that I do but instead, give it all to God, then you have zero reason to claim that I think I'm good and righteous except that you're jealous. Zero reason.:mad: So the only explanation is jealousy...unless you simp,ly don't want me to have God's righteousness in me. If that's the case, then one has to wonder why.

Athanasius
Jun 17th 2008, 07:47 PM
Where did I say I'm Jesus? :o Nowhere. So that is another false statement.

Proverbs 27:4, "Anger is cruel and fury overwhelming but who can stand before jealousy?"

Again, re-read what I said.



Most people don't have too much problem admitting anger. But rare is the man who admits he's jealous. ;) So since i take zero credit for anything good that I do but instead, give it all to God, then you have zero reason to claim that I think I'm good and righteous except that you're jealous. Zero reason.:mad: So the only explanation is jealousy...unless you simp,ly don't want me to have God's righteousness in me. If that's the case, then one has to wonder why.

I've no problem admitting when I'm jealous... When I'm jealous. This doesn't happen to be one of those times. Again, you're not even replying to what I've said.

Joyfilled
Jun 17th 2008, 07:56 PM
Again, re-read what I said.



I've no problem admitting when I'm jealous... When I'm jealous. This doesn't happen to be one of those times. Again, you're not even replying to what I've said.

So why do you claim I'm on a high horse when i give myself zero credit for anything good in me if you're not jealous? :confused

I did reply to what you said but it wasn't the part you wanted to hear. Regarding your other comments, since no one is righteous, then no one can choose God any more than he can decide to accept God or reject him. Romans 11:28, "For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable." Paul didn't even ask God to come into his life any more than any other prophets asked to serve God. They were chosen. And not even Satan can over-ride God's will.

Therefore Arminians are wrong when they claim that man can freely choose to come to God. That is a false teaching of the devil.

Brother Mark
Jun 17th 2008, 08:06 PM
settle down folks. We aren't going to have accusations about false doctrines thrown around on the board.

John146
Jun 17th 2008, 08:11 PM
So why do you claim I'm on a high horse when i give myself zero credit for anything good in me if you're not jealous? :confused

I did reply to what you said but it wasn't the part you wanted to hear. Regarding your other comments, since no one is righteous, then no one can choose God any more than he can decide to accept God or reject him. Romans 11:28, "For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable." Paul didn't even ask God to come into his life any more than any other prophets asked to serve God. They were chosen. And not even Satan can over-ride God's will.

Therefore Arminians are wrong when they claim that man can freely choose to come to God. That is a false teaching of the devil.

What would you tell someone if they asked you what they had to do to be saved?

Sketch
Jun 18th 2008, 03:31 AM
HAHA! This has to be a joke. Joyfilled has GOT to be a joke. I'm laughin, I tell ya. JUST rollin around like a kid, laughing, like I found candy underneath the couch cushion kind of laughing. It's like some kind of jitter bug rolled in through my hands and made its way down to my funny bones, because I am L-A-U-G-H-I-N-G. :rofl::lol::pp:rofl:


Like four smileys kind of laughing.






Joyfilled, you take no credit for anything. And why would you? So, you also take no credit for annoying the brothers and sisters with your blabbering on of things that no one wants to listen to you say, because I'm pretty sure I speak for everyone with a discerning mind when I say, you seem like you're taking credit for not taking credit, and in not taking credit, you place yourself above everyone, thus, while you aren't taking credit, you're taking more credit in being someone you feel God has given the most CORRECT beliefs of anyone else. And you take credit in God giving that to you, although you say you take no credit, and you will most certainly argue with this point, that since you take no credit, how can you take credit. But believe me.. we're all watching it go down right now.


:rofl:



-Casey

acacia_gold
Jun 18th 2008, 03:34 AM
HAHA! This has to be a joke. Joyfilled has GOT to be a joke. I'm laughin, I tell ya. JUST rollin around like a kid, laughing, like I found candy underneath the couch cushion kind of laughing. It's like some kind of jitter bug rolled in through my hands and made its way down to my funny bones, because I am L-A-U-G-H-I-N-G. :rofl::lol::pp:rofl:


Like four smileys kind of laughing.






Joyfilled, you take no credit for anything. And why would you? So, you also take no credit for annoying the brothers and sisters with your blabbering on of things that no one wants to listen to you say, because I'm pretty sure I speak for everyone with a discerning mind when I say, you seem like you're taking credit for not taking credit, and in not taking credit, you place yourself above everyone, thus, while you aren't taking credit, you're taking more credit in being someone you feel God has given the most CORRECT beliefs of anyone else. And you take credit in God giving that to you, although you say you take no credit, and you will most certainly argue with this point, that since you take no credit, how can you take credit. But believe me.. we're all watching it go down right now.


:rofl:



-CaseyThis is a very strange forum I have stumbled upon :rolleyes:

BrckBrln
Jun 18th 2008, 03:36 AM
Why is there so much animosity between Arminians and Calvinists? I know at times I may be guilty of it but it really annoys me.

Athanasius
Jun 18th 2008, 03:38 AM
So why do you claim I'm on a high horse when i give myself zero credit for anything good in me if you're not jealous? :confused

I already told you why.
But like BrotherMark said, no need to turn this thread into what it's poised to become.



I did reply to what you said but it wasn't the part you wanted to hear. Regarding your other comments, since no one is righteous, then no one can choose God any more than he can decide to accept God or reject him. Romans 11:28, "For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable." Paul didn't even ask God to come into his life any more than any other prophets asked to serve God. They were chosen. And not even Satan can over-ride God's will.

I'm sorry, but one is not a Christian because they said, "Jesus, please come into my life". See, I was going to say, "Paul made the conscious choice to follow God". And you know what... That's what I'm going to say.



Therefore Arminians are wrong when they claim that man can freely choose to come to God. That is a false teaching of the devil.

I'm not Arminian any more than I'm Calvinistic. I believe they are both wrong and both right concerning the issues they address (right and wrong concerning different issues).

By Faith
Jun 18th 2008, 04:08 AM
Joyfilled... I am curious to know what you have been chosen to do? But this bickering is insane. This is exactly why Christ never wanted denominations . there is one body of Christ. This is insane. Denominations seperate us from God's word. Look at you all bickering not over the word at this point but over who's denomination is right or wrong. I tell you what if your denominations is not reading, teaching in Faith from the ENTIRE bible than it is all wrong. My goodness folks...look how seperate the body is. God is not pleased with folks that choose what part of the bible to believe and reject everything else. We must go back to the basics where we just believe and read the BIBLE. The whole thang.

Athanasius
Jun 18th 2008, 04:12 AM
Joyfilled... I am curious to know what you have been chosen to do? But this bickering is insane. This is exactly why Christ never wanted denominations . there is one body of Christ. This is insane. Denominations seperate us from God's word. Look at you all bickering not over the word at this point but over who's denomination is right or wrong. I tell you what if your denominations is not reading, teaching in Faith from the ENTIRE bible than it is all wrong. My goodness folks...look how seperate the body is. God is not pleased with folks that choose what part of the bible to believe and reject everything else. We must go back to the basics where we just believe and read the BIBLE. The whole thang.

Sorry, but truth is too important to kill it in the streets. 'Bickering' is not necessary, agreed. Discussion is, even to the point of 'heated discussion'. But we mustn't stop talking because we don't like division.

By Faith
Jun 18th 2008, 04:23 AM
But you all are no longer discussing. It is a full out internet arguement and both sides are not learning anything so it is unproductive in the body of christ. You all are not trying to teach each other or help eachother on your walks. You all are trying to get your points across. That is full of emotion and pride, which is a horrible deadly sin. I only urge this to stop because I truly love the body of chirst and I don't like to see it when we do things against eachother. I don't like division that doesn't mean much because I don't control anything. Healthy discussion is good when someone is trying to learn. But that is not the case and the bible speaks against this type of heated discussion. It is not right and it is not like Christ. Now I am done with it do what you want to but that is what I know. This is not productive to the body and it is given the devil room to enter into this christian fourm. We are better than that.

Athanasius
Jun 18th 2008, 07:16 AM
But you all are no longer discussing.

Oh I agree, in fact, we were never discussing.



It is a full out internet arguement and both sides are not learning anything so it is unproductive in the body of christ. You all are not trying to teach each other or help eachother on your walks. You all are trying to get your points across.

But... I'm not trying to teach him anything; he's too deep into his ways.



That is full of emotion and pride, which is a horrible deadly sin. I only urge this to stop because I truly love the body of chirst and I don't like to see it when we do things against eachother. I don't like division that doesn't mean much because I don't control anything. Healthy discussion is good when someone is trying to learn. But that is not the case and the bible speaks against this type of heated discussion. It is not right and it is not like Christ. Now I am done with it do what you want to but that is what I know. This is not productive to the body and it is given the devil room to enter into this christian fourm. We are better than that.

If there's one thing we learned in this thread, it's that no, we aren't.

Duane Morse
Jun 18th 2008, 07:39 AM
Your own words, By Faith...

"I chose God the other day. God himself had nothing to do with it. I chose him out of my own free will because I have a righteous nature.

God's pretty lucky to have someone like me around. Those other poor slobs who weren't as righteous as I was...

In fact, I really don't need his power at all because I can accept him or reject him on my own any time I want to.

So God is at my beck and call, not the other way around.

Some people call me self-righteous, but at least I'm righteous and they're not.

So I don't really know what this fuss about Christ's death on the cross is all about since I myself can choose to do right and wrong all by myself.
Inf act, I don't pray much because God really can't do anything for me that i can't to for myself.

It's me who leads me out of temptation and delivers me from evil. Why, I'm just about the best thing that came along in a long time.

So the only thing I pray for is that others can be as righteous as I am..."




That is pretty 'high horse' to me.

Then you counter yourself by saying.


"And I got news for you, Xel, I cannot do anything righteous on my own because I'm nothing but a rotten sinner who doesn't deserve God's grace.

So since i take zero credit for anything good that I do but instead, give it all to God, then you have zero reason to claim that I think I'm good and righteous except that you're jealous.

So why do you claim I'm on a high horse when i give myself zero credit for anything good in me if you're not jealous?"



In the first post you attribute everything to yourself, and your own will.
In the others you attribute it to God.




As far as I am concerned, this is nothing but a troll thread meant to cause confusion and division.




God is lucky to have you around?
Yes, as an example of what we are not to be.

You chose God?
The scriptures prove you wrong.
It is God that chooses.

God is at your beck and call?
Got news for you, but God is in control - not you.


God can't do for you what you can't do for yourself?

Try raising yourself from your own death.




And, you will die.



I feel sorry for you. In a most profound way!

crawfish
Jun 18th 2008, 01:25 PM
I chose God the other day. God himself had everything to do with it. I chose him out of my own free will because I have seen and accepted His wondrous offer of grace forgiveness . :)

I'm pretty lucky that God has offered grace to someone unworthy, like me. I am a sinner - unrighteous and unworthy of salvation. But God has offered His eternal reward to those who choose to name Him their savior. I hope that others will also find God, and I'm motivated to share the Gospel with those around me - because God doesn't have some set number of people he's decided to save (and damn the rest of us), but ALL are offered God's gift of grace.

So God will reward me by His offer of grace, despite my unworthiness. I need Him utterly; I can no more save myself than I can jump to the moon. I will spend my life at God's beck and call, doing His will because I want my friends, acquaintances, and even my enemies to change their hearts and receive God's grace. Because NOBODY is beyond the reach of God. No matter what evil they've done.

Some people call me self-righteous, but the truth is, I'm not righteous - I'm forgiven. It's God's grace that saves me. I have no purity, goodness or righteous nature; but God makes me pure, good and righteous, and has saved me: I will see my reward in heaven. It feels good to be saved!

Thank God Christ died for my sins. It is through his sacrifice, through His death and resurrection, that I now may be forgiven and receive God's gift of salvation. Thank God for also giving us a choice - we were dead, but by choosing Him we can be alive. We were lost, but now we're found. I will bow before the cross, being obedient to Him for the rest of my life, because I am so happy to receive a gift for which I don't deserve. God's grace saves me - my works are a sign of my appreciation of that gift, and my dedication to bringing others to Christ. I am humbled before the Lord, and I can't do otherwise.

So the only thing I pray for is that others can accept God in their life, and receive God's gift of grace that is freely given. I am glad that they have the chance - that God has not already chosen who is saved and who will not be, and we are just going through the motions with no hope whatsoever. Lord, I pray that you will guide the hearts of those I have contact with, and guide me to say and do the things that will reach them, so they, too can have the offer of eternal life you have given me.

You had some parts right, but I had to make a few changes for it to reflect reality. The changes are in bold. ;)

9Marksfan
Jun 18th 2008, 09:12 PM
Your own words, By Faith...

Er, it was Joyfilled who posted originally...... :rolleyes:


"I chose God the other day. God himself had nothing to do with it. I chose him out of my own free will because I have a righteous nature.

God's pretty lucky to have someone like me around. Those other poor slobs who weren't as righteous as I was...

In fact, I really don't need his power at all because I can accept him or reject him on my own any time I want to.

So God is at my beck and call, not the other way around.

Some people call me self-righteous, but at least I'm righteous and they're not.

So I don't really know what this fuss about Christ's death on the cross is all about since I myself can choose to do right and wrong all by myself.
Inf act, I don't pray much because God really can't do anything for me that i can't to for myself.

It's me who leads me out of temptation and delivers me from evil. Why, I'm just about the best thing that came along in a long time.

So the only thing I pray for is that others can be as righteous as I am..."

That is pretty 'high horse' to me.

It would be if he/she meant it - but it was DRIPPING with so much sarcasm that I'm quite frankly AMAZED that anyone could miss that! it was a parody on the Arminian position, folks!!!! :B


Then you counter yourself by saying.


"And I got news for you, Xel, I cannot do anything righteous on my own because I'm nothing but a rotten sinner who doesn't deserve God's grace.

So since i take zero credit for anything good that I do but instead, give it all to God, then you have zero reason to claim that I think I'm good and righteous except that you're jealous.

So why do you claim I'm on a high horse when i give myself zero credit for anything good in me if you're not jealous?"



In the first post you attribute everything to yourself, and your own will.

No - it was PARODY!!!!


As far as I am concerned, this is nothing but a troll thread meant to cause confusion and division.




God is lucky to have you around?

It was PARODY! :giveup:


You chose God?
The scriptures prove you wrong.
It is God that chooses.

THta's what Joyfilled believes!


God is at your beck and call?
Got news for you, but God is in control - not you.

Again, that's what Joyfilled believes!


God can't do for you what you can't do for yourself?

Try raising yourself from your own death.

You guys are in complete agreement!


And, you will die.

Don't quite follow that.....


I feel sorry for you. In a most profound way!

Please reread the original post - and Joyfilled's replies and I think you'll see that thw thread is a parody on Arminianism which is just getting every Arminian's back up!

Athanasius
Jun 18th 2008, 10:18 PM
Parody, it was not. Rude, it was.

Duane Morse
Jun 19th 2008, 06:21 AM
Er, it was Joyfilled who posted originally...... :rolleyes:




Oop's, my bad.

Sorry, By Faith.

9Marksfan
Jun 19th 2008, 09:27 AM
Parody, it was not. Rude, it was.

No - I don't think the OP was rude at all - provocative, certainly - and perhaps subsequent posts were strongly worded - but - hey! - if you think they're rude, hit that Reported Post window!

Athanasius
Jun 19th 2008, 10:30 PM
No - I don't think the OP was rude at all - provocative, certainly - and perhaps subsequent posts were strongly worded - but - hey! - if you think they're rude, hit that Reported Post window!

I can't report God. Err, Joyfilled, who was directed by God to make the thread :P

1of7000
Jun 21st 2008, 05:25 AM
I had a friend who was an Armenian, he had a thick accent, a funny mustache and smell kinda bad cause he grew up bathing only once a week. His name was Calvin.

ariel_jesus237
Jun 23rd 2008, 05:20 AM
I still can't believe (well I believe but I'm just so saddened) that people actually argue about the Arminian vs. Calvinist doctrine or any other different doctrinal beliefs within the body of Christ... I for one will not identify myself as anything but a Christian and bondservant of Christ. You all realize that the enemy is the one who plants seeds of discord between brothers and is the one responsible for the division in the Church of Christ? I have seen both sides of Arminian and Calvinist beliefs and though I lean slightly more towards the Arminian side, in no way do I disregard the Calvinist doctrine and I find it petty to actually have to pick "a side" since we're all saved by faith in Christ alone.... a lot of the other stuff is just trivial.

coffee cup
Jun 23rd 2008, 06:26 AM
How can you be sure that you've been chosen? How does one know?:confused

you know by keeping your eye on what Jesus has done for you.
THOSE bad days when you dont feel so saved . you still know your saved . Because Jesus has saved you on the cross.
YOU KNOW because a unbeliever would never be concerned about not having faith in Jesus.
www.whataboutjesus.com (http://www.whataboutjesus.com)

BrckBrln
Jun 23rd 2008, 03:42 PM
a lot of the other stuff is just trivial.

Understanding how we got saved is hardly trivial.

Brother Mark
Jun 23rd 2008, 03:47 PM
Understanding how we got saved is hardly trivial.

If one can ever really understand the miracles that the Lord does, that would be amazing! But this thread isn't about that. It was about mocking, with a straw man, those that believe differently. Anyway, understanding the mechanics of salvation is far different than understanding the "how". In that, I am confident we can agree! Just thought I would throw that out there.

IBWatching
Jun 25th 2008, 04:53 PM
Then please explain where Arminians believe the decision to believe in God comes from;...

The need to repent, which Jesus said only man can do:


Luke 13:3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4 "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were {worse} culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? 5 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

No repentance, no Salvation. Both Peter and Paul concurred. It's man's choice. Without it, he remains lost.

Joyfilled
Jun 25th 2008, 07:05 PM
If one can ever really understand the miracles that the Lord does, that would be amazing! But this thread isn't about that. It was about mocking, with a straw man, those that believe differently. Anyway, understanding the mechanics of salvation is far different than understanding the "how". In that, I am confident we can agree! Just thought I would throw that out there.

Since I initiated the thread then I know what it's about. It's showing the ludicrousy of the Arminian belief that we are righteous enough to choose God and believe him. Only the Holy Spirit changes hearts and minds, gives us faith, strength and controls our lives. So the credit belongs to God, not man's own will. So I hope Arminians are convicted by my thread. If not, they should be ashamed of themselves. But one has to have humility to have shame. So I'm sure they'll continue their self-righteousness. But they will be held accountable by God on judgment day for their arrogance.

Joyfilled
Jun 25th 2008, 07:16 PM
Joyfilled... I am curious to know what you have been chosen to do? But this bickering is insane. This is exactly why Christ never wanted denominations . there is one body of Christ. This is insane. Denominations seperate us from God's word. Look at you all bickering not over the word at this point but over who's denomination is right or wrong. I tell you what if your denominations is not reading, teaching in Faith from the ENTIRE bible than it is all wrong. My goodness folks...look how seperate the body is. God is not pleased with folks that choose what part of the bible to believe and reject everything else. We must go back to the basics where we just believe and read the BIBLE. The whole thang.

I agree. In fact, I'm about to leave this forum because people never address my OP, but attack me instead. All they have to do is explain why my OP is wrong. But not one person has. Instead, they use this forum as a venue to personally attack those they disagree with. So this thread, as most of them here has deteriorated into verbal volleyball, a game I have no desire to play. So unless an Arminian can explain why my post is untrue, he hasn't got a case which means his attacks against me are unwarranted.

crawfish
Jun 25th 2008, 07:46 PM
I agree. In fact, I'm about to leave this forum because people never address my OP, but attack me instead. All they have to do is explain why my OP is wrong. But not one person has. Instead, they use this forum as a venue to personally attack those they disagree with. So this thread, as most of them here has deteriorated into verbal volleyball, a game I have no desire to play. So unless an Arminian can explain why my post is untrue, he hasn't got a case which means his attacks against me are unwarranted.

I'll leave you with this thought: humility.

Peace.

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 07:48 PM
I agree. In fact, I'm about to leave this forum because people never address my OP, but attack me instead. All they have to do is explain why my OP is wrong. But not one person has. Instead, they use this forum as a venue to personally attack those they disagree with. So this thread, as most of them here has deteriorated into verbal volleyball, a game I have no desire to play. So unless an Arminian can explain why my post is untrue, he hasn't got a case which means his attacks against me are unwarranted.

The OP was addressed early on. For instance, it was pointed out early on that no arminian claims he is saved because of his own righteousness as was stated in the OP. No arminian will say God had nothing to do with his salvation. Yet the OP says it that way. The OP built a straw man so he could be torn down. But that straw man is nothing like the theology of many God fearing folks that hold to arminian teachings.

Joyfilled
Jun 25th 2008, 11:15 PM
The OP was addressed early on. For instance, it was pointed out early on that no arminian claims he is saved because of his own righteousness as was stated in the OP. No arminian will say God had nothing to do with his salvation. Yet the OP says it that way. The OP built a straw man so he could be torn down. But that straw man is nothing like the theology of many God fearing folks that hold to arminian teachings.

So then Arminians can't believe in free will if they don't claim they are saved by their own decision to come to God. Therefore, your statement defeats Arminianism.

genesisblu
Jun 26th 2008, 01:21 AM
Can I just ask why it is you feel you have the authority to speak for people who believe they have free will? I believe in free will but I certainly do not feel I saved myself or that I am righteous. I believe that thanks to God's ever giving mercy and grace I have been offered salvation. I don't see it as something I've done. I didn't warrant it, deserve it, have a right to it...He graciously gave it to me. All I did was humbly say thank you thank you God I do believe what you have told me.

It has nothing to do with me. He is the only one who gets the glory for my state. If He wasn't the loving God that He is and offer it to me I would have nothing. As it is He did and I have assurance that I will live with Him not because I chose Him but because He loved me.

Joyfilled
Jun 26th 2008, 01:55 AM
Can I just ask why it is you feel you have the authority to speak for people who believe they have free will? I believe in free will but I certainly do not feel I saved myself or that I am righteous. I believe that thanks to God's ever giving mercy and grace I have been offered salvation. I don't see it as something I've done. I didn't warrant it, deserve it, have a right to it...He graciously gave it to me. All I did was humbly say thank you thank you God I do believe what you have told me.

It has nothing to do with me. He is the only one who gets the glory for my state. If He wasn't the loving God that He is and offer it to me I would have nothing. As it is He did and I have assurance that I will live with Him not because I chose Him but because He loved me.

And what part of your nature do you think accepted God? Your sinful nature?:o Or the Holy Spirit inside you? It can't be the former because Romans 8:9 says that the sinful nature can't please God. So it's the latter which means that it's God's power that enables you to accept Christ, not your own free will. So Arminians need to give credit to God for their belief, not their own "free" will.

Joey Porter
Jun 26th 2008, 02:02 AM
I chose God the other day. God himself had nothing to do with it. I chose him out of my own free will because I have a righteous nature. :)

God's pretty lucky to have someone like me around. :saint:Those other poor slobs who weren't as righteous as I was to choose God are going to suffer. Oh well, they should have listened to me, so they're without excuse. Some people are just better than others, I guess.

So God will reward me for my works because they come from my own free will. In fact, I really don't need his power at all because I can accept him or reject him on my own any time I want to. So God is at my beck and call, not the other way around. ;)

Some people call me self-righteous, but at least I'm righteous and they're not. It's my own works that will save me, my own goodness, purity and righteous nature that gets me into heaven. It feels good to be this good. ;)

So I don't really know what this fuss about Christ's death on the cross is all about since I myself can choose to do right and wrong all by myself. I really don't even need to come to the cross for a thing because i can rely on my own will to keep me out of sins. Inf act, I don't pray much because God really can't do anything for me that i can't to for myself. It's me who leads me out of temptation and delivers me from evil. Why, I'm just about the best thing that came along in a long time.

So the only thing I pray for is that others can be as righteous as I am and decide on their own to believe in God as well. ;) But i guess that won't do any good either since their decision has to come from themselves without any power from you. So I guess you can't really help me there either, God. Oh well, I guess it's all based on the fact that some people are righteous and others aren't.

This is a debate that has been going on for centuries! Isn't it possible that both the Calvinist and Arminian views have flaws, hence, no resolution to the debate after all this time?

Besides, I think delving into the issue of how Yahweh's sovereignty relates to the choices that man makes could be an issue that is far beyond human comprehension. At least, far beyond a complete comprehension of it.

Joyfilled
Jun 26th 2008, 02:46 AM
This is a debate that has been going on for centuries! Isn't it possible that both the Calvinist and Arminian views have flaws, hence, no resolution to the debate after all this time?

Besides, I think delving into the issue of how Yahweh's sovereignty relates to the choices that man makes could be an issue that is far beyond human comprehension. At least, far beyond a complete comprehension of it.

Catholics and protestants have been arguing for centuries as well and the Catholics are clearly wrong because they contradict so much scripture. So long-lasting arguments do not at all mean that one can't know the truth. Arguments happen between true and false teachers as 1 Corinthians 11:19 says, and always will. ;)

genesisblu
Jun 26th 2008, 03:25 AM
And what part of your nature do you think accepted God? Your sinful nature?:o Or the Holy Spirit inside you? It can't be the former because Romans 8:9 says that the sinful nature can't please God. So it's the latter which means that it's God's power that enables you to accept Christ, not your own free will. So Arminians need to give credit to God for their belief, not their own "free" will.

Could you kindly show me where it says that one must be pleasing to God before they can believe?

Joyfilled
Jun 26th 2008, 03:38 AM
Could you kindly show me where it says that one must be pleasing to God before they can believe?

Romans 3:11, "There is no one righteous, no one who understands, no one who seeks God." So who do you think gives us the power to seek God?Who do you think gives us the power to accept and believe God?

1) our sinful nature?
2) the devil?
3) Or God?

I'll give you a hint; it's not the first two. 1 Corinthians 2:14, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

That means that without the indwelling Holy Spirit, one cannot believe or understand God. That also means that only the indwelling Holy Spirit can make us believe God which Ezekiel 36:27 also confirms. 2 Corinthians 4:4 also explains that the eyes of unbelievers have been blinded by Satan so they cannot believe God. Only the Holy Spirit can open the eyes of the blind.

So "everything good comes from above." Everything, including faith.

theBelovedDisciple
Jun 26th 2008, 04:54 AM
God's pretty lucky to have someone like me around.

-------------------------------------------------------------

God doesnt need or use 'luck' to operate in His Kingdom... Nor was it 'luck' that drew you to Him....or anybody that He saves......

Luck is not the language of the Kingdom of Heaven nor does He define what He does by 'luck'...

God is totally Soveriegn and His Providence is over all.. even 'time' here on this earth.. 24/7 Nothing surprises Him and nothing is out of control so He has to base what He does on 'luck'.

Joyfilled
Jun 26th 2008, 01:19 PM
God's pretty lucky to have someone like me around.

-------------------------------------------------------------

God doesnt need or use 'luck' to operate in His Kingdom... Nor was it 'luck' that drew you to Him....or anybody that He saves......

Luck is not the language of the Kingdom of Heaven nor does He define what He does by 'luck'...

God is totally Soveriegn and His Providence is over all.. even 'time' here on this earth.. 24/7 Nothing surprises Him and nothing is out of control so He has to base what He does on 'luck'.

Amen! I love to hear the truth. :) So no, God doesn't change his mind or depend on us to make decisions for him. :rofl:

Joey Porter
Jun 26th 2008, 02:20 PM
Catholics and protestants have been arguing for centuries as well and the Catholics are clearly wrong because they contradict so much scripture. So long-lasting arguments do not at all mean that one can't know the truth. Arguments happen between true and false teachers as 1 Corinthians 11:19 says, and always will. ;)

Well, wait a minute here. How can you say that in the debate between catholics and protestants, catholics are clearly wrong because they contradict scripture, without acknowledging that there are thousands of Protestant denominations that all contradict each other? Your Calvinism/Arminianism debate is just one example of this.Not even all Calvinists or all Arminians agree amongst each other. (And I have not even begun to consider all of the rapture debates, tithing debates, baptism debates, and other debates that go on within the Protestant denominations. But that's another topic.)

retiredsparky
Jun 26th 2008, 02:39 PM
This is a debate that has been going on for centuries! Isn't it possible that both the Calvinist and Arminian views have flaws, hence, no resolution to the debate after all this time?

Besides, I think delving into the issue of how Yahweh's sovereignty relates to the choices that man makes could be an issue that is far beyond human comprehension. At least, far beyond a complete comprehension of it.
You sir are quite correct as far as a "complete comprehension" goes. However one can come very close to a full understanding of this if they are open minded enough to study the issue carefully. I myself have found the answer to this issue, but I will not post it here, as I am still not sure what is permissable and what is not.:hmm: If you wish, or anyone else for that matter, you may contact me and request the material. Fred

genesisblu
Jun 26th 2008, 05:36 PM
Because I don't want to incorrectly assume what you believe (as stated above even Calvinist may have different beliefs even amongst themselves) what do you believe exactly occurs during regeneration? What happens, what are you given or not given, what state are you in after this occurs?

genesisblu
Jun 26th 2008, 07:07 PM
Romans 3:11, "There is no one righteous, no one who understands, no one who seeks God." So who do you think gives us the power to seek God?Who do you think gives us the power to accept and believe God?

1) our sinful nature?
2) the devil?
3) Or God?

I'll give you a hint; it's not the first two. 1 Corinthians 2:14, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

That means that without the indwelling Holy Spirit, one cannot believe or understand God. That also means that only the indwelling Holy Spirit can make us believe God which Ezekiel 36:27 also confirms. 2 Corinthians 4:4 also explains that the eyes of unbelievers have been blinded by Satan so they cannot believe God. Only the Holy Spirit can open the eyes of the blind.

So "everything good comes from above." Everything, including faith.

Ummm none of those state anyone must be pleasing to God before they can believe.

John146
Jun 26th 2008, 07:49 PM
Since I initiated the thread then I know what it's about. It's showing the ludicrousy of the Arminian belief that we are righteous enough to choose God and believe him. Only the Holy Spirit changes hearts and minds, gives us faith, strength and controls our lives. So the credit belongs to God, not man's own will. So I hope Arminians are convicted by my thread. If not, they should be ashamed of themselves. But one has to have humility to have shame.

I guess you have no shame then because you sure aren't showing any humility. :rolleyes:



So I'm sure they'll continue their self-righteousness. But they will be held accountable by God on judgment day for their arrogance.

You have shown nothing but arrogance in this thread by acting as if you have all the answers and everyone else needs to learn from you. Humble yourself.

Joyfilled
Jun 26th 2008, 07:50 PM
Ummm none of those state anyone must be pleasing to God before they can believe.

One can't be pleasing to God without the Holy Spirit. That's the whole point.:rolleyes: Therefore since the sinful nature cannot please God, then faith cannot come from the sinful nature. It comes from the Holy Spirit as Ephesians 2:8-9 explains. Therefore, no one chooses to believe. He is either overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit which causes him to believe as Ezekiel 26:37 explains, or he remains an unbeliever. End of story. :rolleyes:

John146
Jun 26th 2008, 07:54 PM
One can't be pleasing to God without the Holy Spirit. That's the whole point.:rolleyes: Therefore since the sinful nature cannot please God, then faith cannot come from the sinful nature. It comes from the Holy Spirit as Ephesians 2:8-9 explains. Therefore, no one chooses to believe. He is either overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit which causes him to believe as Ezekiel 26:37 explains, or he remains an unbeliever. End of story. :rolleyes:

You say no one chooses to believe. Do you think anyone can choose not to believe?

genesisblu
Jun 26th 2008, 09:22 PM
One can't be pleasing to God without the Holy Spirit. That's the whole point.:rolleyes: Therefore since the sinful nature cannot please God, then faith cannot come from the sinful nature. It comes from the Holy Spirit as Ephesians 2:8-9 explains. Therefore, no one chooses to believe. He is either overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit which causes him to believe as Ezekiel 26:37 explains, or he remains an unbeliever. End of story. :rolleyes:

Would you please explain where it says that it will cause them to believe in God. It says it will cause them to obey his rules. To walk in His statutes.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Making them willing to keep the judgments, and the commandments and ordinances. And speaking of the restoration of Israel. They knew who God was, they had disobeyed Him profusely, but He would restore them.

That has nothing to do with one becoming a believer today.

Brother Mark
Jun 26th 2008, 09:33 PM
For you folks new to the thread, the OP is a straw man. I don't know of any arminian that teaches he is righteous before coming to God or that salvation is by men.

Just thought I would throw that out again.

9Marksfan
Jun 26th 2008, 09:45 PM
For you folks new to the thread, the OP is a straw man. I don't know of any arminian that teaches he is righteous before coming to God or that salvation is by men.

Just thought I would throw that out again.

But many believe that faith is obedience (rightly) and that we choose to believe and THEN we are born again - since it is WE who do the choosing BEFORE we are regenerated - but how is this possible if all we have is a sinful nature that hates God? Ah! But our wills aren't THAT fallen - we're still free to come to God (that's not sinful, so we must still have a bit of inherent righteousness, right?) - that's pretty much your position, isn't it, Mark? Still think Joyfilled is building a straw man? :hmm:

Brother Mark
Jun 26th 2008, 09:49 PM
But many believe that faith is obedience (rightly) and that we choose to believe and THEN we are born again - since it is WE who do the choosing BEFORE we are regenerated - but how is this possible if all we have is a sinful nature that hates God? Ah! But our wills aren't THAT fallen - we're still free to come to God (that's not sinful, so we must still have a bit of inherent righteousness, right?) - that's pretty much your position, isn't it, Mark? Still think Joyfilled is building a straw man? :hmm:

It is a complete straw man Nigel. He said it was the righteous that was saved. As I stated earlier, no arminian will teach that the lost are righteous.

John146
Jun 26th 2008, 10:13 PM
But many believe that faith is obedience (rightly) and that we choose to believe and THEN we are born again - since it is WE who do the choosing BEFORE we are regenerated - but how is this possible if all we have is a sinful nature that hates God? Ah! But our wills aren't THAT fallen - we're still free to come to God (that's not sinful, so we must still have a bit of inherent righteousness, right?) - that's pretty much your position, isn't it, Mark? Still think Joyfilled is building a straw man? :hmm:

Scripture says we are free to come to God or reject Him! Yes, we need the gospel preached to us and we need to Spirit to work on convicting us of sin, but we still have to make a decision to reject or accept Christ and the gospel. Is Isaiah 66:3-4 mistaken in teaching that the wicked choose their own ways? I'm going to side with scripture on this.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. - Rev 22:17

20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. - Rev 3:20

6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.- Isaiah 55:6-7

Passages like these make it clear that a person must forsake their evil ways and turn to God and open the door of their heart to Him. That isn't something that just happens automatically. God speaks to man's conscience through His word and the Holy Spirit, but the fact is that man can decide to resist the Spirit and reject the gospel (or embrace the Spirit and accept the gospel).

51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. - Acts 7:51

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.- 2 Thess 2:9-10

genesisblu
Jun 26th 2008, 10:22 PM
Mat 9:13 Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."

Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come to me; hear, that your soul may live; and I will make with you an everlasting covenant, my steadfast, sure love for David.
Isa 55:4 Behold, I made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander for the peoples.
Isa 55:5 Behold, you shall call a nation that you do not know, and a nation that did not know you shall run to you, because of the LORD your God, and of the Holy One of Israel, for he has glorified you.
Isa 55:6 "Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near;
Isa 55:7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.

::EDIT:: sorry read post #70 after I posted mine, so it's a bit redundant.
We are to seek Him so that we may become righteous, not because we are righteous.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 26th 2008, 11:14 PM
This seems like the proverbial, if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound, question. :rolleyes:
Understanding how we got saved is hardly trivial.I don't understand the details of exactly what happens when I press the on button on my laptop. But I know that when I do I can click a few icons and end up online. I don't understand how all the circuitry and wiring work in my house but I know that when I flip a switch the lights come on. :)

God Bless!

Joyfilled
Jun 27th 2008, 12:51 AM
Scripture says we are free to come to God or reject Him! Yes, we need the gospel preached to us and we need to Spirit to work on convicting us of sin, but we still have to make a decision to reject or accept Christ and the gospel. Is Isaiah 66:3-4 mistaken in teaching that the wicked choose their own ways? I'm going to side with scripture on this.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. - Rev 22:17

20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. - Rev 3:20

6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.- Isaiah 55:6-7

Passages like these make it clear that a person must forsake their evil ways and turn to God and open the door of their heart to Him. That isn't something that just happens automatically. God speaks to man's conscience through His word and the Holy Spirit, but the fact is that man can decide to resist the Spirit and reject the gospel (or embrace the Spirit and accept the gospel).

51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. - Acts 7:51

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.- 2 Thess 2:9-10

So again, what part of our nature "chooses" to believe in God? Our sinful nature? :o WRONG. Romans 3:11, "No one seeks God."

Jesus also said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

Also, 1 Corinthians 2:14, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

So no, faith is a gift from God, not from ourselves, so that no one can boast.'

Therefore, my OP is correct that Arminians want to boast about their faith because they believe that their "human nature" can be righteous enough to "Choose to believe." The bible makes it crystal clear that "no one seeks God' and that one cannot believe without the Holy Spirit. So since boasting and pride come from Satan, not from the Holy Spirit, Arminians are passing along a false teaching, period. But I already knew that once Arminians stopped attacking and yelling "strawman" and started actually explaining their beliefs that they would prove my OP true, and they have indeed. It only took 4-5 pages into the thread for them to do so.

faithfulfriend
Jun 27th 2008, 02:09 AM
Romans 3:11, "No one seeks God."


Really?

De 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

2Ch 14:4 And commanded Judah to seek the LORD God of their fathers, and to do the law and the commandment.

Ho 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

Mt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Lu 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Ac 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

In order to understand the scripture (Romans 3:11) in it's proper context, you must understand who is speaking, and who the speaker is addressing. The scripture is not saying that "nobody" (every person in the world) seeks God, he was speaking to a specific group of people for a reason. Read the whole chapter. :cool:

Brother Mark
Jun 27th 2008, 02:27 AM
Let's keep it cordial. No more calling things false doctrine/false teachings etc. Be civil in the discussion.

ProjectPeter
Jun 29th 2008, 02:36 PM
Okay... now that this is in the correct section... It is opened again. Heed the warning that Brother Mark gave.