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Redneck Charger
Jun 18th 2008, 03:49 AM
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God came to the end of all his work; and on the seventh day he took his rest from all the work which he had done.
Gen 2:3 And God gave his blessing to the seventh day and made it holy: because on that day he took his rest from all the work which he had made and done.
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heaven and the earth when they were made.

My question is why did Man take this day and make it a working day.. Opening stores, why did we choose it from a Holy day??:pray:

By Faith
Jun 18th 2008, 03:57 AM
He rested not us:) because of the fall we are now working to achieve the greatness to enter into God's rest. So as a punishment we have to work:) ironic huh...God is a force to be reckoning with :)

Redneck Charger
Jun 18th 2008, 04:00 AM
He rested not us:) because of the fall we are now working to achieve the greatness to enter into God's rest. So as a punishment we have to work:) ironic huh...God is a force to be reckoning with :)

My understanding of him making the seventh day holy, means we are all sinning by working on the holy day..:pray:

By Faith
Jun 18th 2008, 04:17 AM
Goodness no :) than pastors would be sinning and I don't want to do that. Re Read the second verse it states He meaning God rested. Now skip down to the punishment Gen 3:17 and on. He punished the man by making him work with out rest. Sweat until he returns to clay (paraphrased). We could have made the seventh day Holy if we wouldn't have fallen. Now we strive to enter into God's rest during the second coming because that is when the next opprotunity. But God himself he is still at rest and you can read that in Heb...that author talks about it a little.

Hope this helps.

Firefighter
Jun 18th 2008, 02:48 PM
Matthew 11 and Hebrews 4 tells us that He became our rest. I have rest every single day I am in Christ.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

By accepting Christ we have entered into His rest, just as God did, thus fulfilling the true spirit of the law. Sabbath/Rest means a cessation from labor. We cannot get away from "just as God did" in that scripture. "Just as God did" says that I am fully following the example set by God by trusting Christ for my salvation. I am resting everyday, just as God did. It does not say "partly", "sort of", "kind of"... it says JUST LIKE GOD.

Christ became our Sabbath or rest. In Christ We no longer have to keep a reminder of something we already have. Keeping the Sabbath seems to me rejecting the reality for the shadow.

threebigrocks
Jun 18th 2008, 03:05 PM
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God came to the end of all his work; and on the seventh day he took his rest from all the work which he had done.
Gen 2:3 And God gave his blessing to the seventh day and made it holy: because on that day he took his rest from all the work which he had made and done.
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heaven and the earth when they were made.

My question is why did Man take this day and make it a working day.. Opening stores, why did we choose it from a Holy day??:pray:


We will all enter that same rest some day if we remain obedient:

Hebrews 4


1Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.

2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
3For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
"AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,"
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";
5and again in this passage, "THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST."
6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
7He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."
8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.


Under the law, it was of the flesh. Under grace, it is of the Spirit and originates from heaven. Our high priest does not die - that is now Christ! He is eternal, versus the earthly high priests who had to offer sacrafice over and over. Christ died once for all.

Hebrews 7


26For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;

27who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

diffangle
Jun 18th 2008, 04:12 PM
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God came to the end of all his work; and on the seventh day he took his rest from all the work which he had done.
Gen 2:3 And God gave his blessing to the seventh day and made it holy: because on that day he took his rest from all the work which he had made and done.
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heaven and the earth when they were made.

My question is why did Man take this day and make it a working day.. Opening stores, why did we choose it from a Holy day??:pray:

Remembering/observing the seventh day Sabbath is one of the ten commandments...

Ex 20
8 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.
9 For six days you shall labour and do all your work.
10 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to YHWH your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.
11 For in six days YHWH made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore YHWH blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

Firefighter
Jun 18th 2008, 05:29 PM
The Ten Commandments along with the rest of the law was part of the covenant with the Jews, and as such no longer applies to the NT church.

Ta-An
Jun 18th 2008, 05:40 PM
The Ten Commandments along with the rest of the law was part of the covenant with the Jews, and as such no longer applies to the NT church.:eek: .

Firefighter
Jun 18th 2008, 05:42 PM
I refer you to Acts 15 and the Council of Jerusalem...

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.

These were the things the Jerusalem Council determined the Gentiles were to follow, these were the ONLY NECESSARY THINGS that were listed by the Apostles concerning the law...

Ta-An
Jun 18th 2008, 05:47 PM
I refer you to Acts 15 and the Council of Jerusalem...Ergatēs... without the OT the NT has no foundation :D

Firefighter
Jun 18th 2008, 05:52 PM
You cannot deny the NT or the truth contained therein... Do you still sacrifice animals??? Why not?

Firefighter
Jun 18th 2008, 05:56 PM
You would have to provide an academically acceptable interpretation to the rulings of the Jerusalem Council found in Acts 15 to show otherwise. I will be awaiting your exegesis on those scriptures...

yoyo7th
Jun 18th 2008, 06:22 PM
1. Since the 4 gospel accounts (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) were written 3 to 6 decades after the initiation of the new covenant era..why are there no editing comments by the authors regarding the cessation of the sabbath 4th commandemnt? John put about 8 editing comments in his account, which is regarded by most scholars as the the most recent account, yet he says nothing in chapter 5, 7 or 9 (sabbath conflict passages) about a change of worship manners. Never mind the other 3 who had an opportunity in Matt 12, Mark 2 and 3, Luke 6, 13 and 14.

2. Why did Jesus spend so much effort defending, correcting , clarifying the 4th commandment in His conflict with the Jewish clergy. If he knew He was going to trash, abrogate, obsolete the annoying, burdensome, legalistic rule...why didn't He just throw in the towel and say..."I am going to phase this stupid law out with my death."

3.Why didn't Paul tell the gentile crowd in ACTS 13:42-44..."Hey you don't need to wait a whole week to come back to hear more preaching....come tomorrow on the "LORD's DAY" ..I am just hear to reach these pharisee, legalistic, judaizer Jews..I preach Jesus and we have trashed this 4th commandment and we are in a new covenant and so we worship tomorrow. or whenever we feel like it"

4. In ACTS 18:4 ( just 2 chapters before ACTS 20:7) why didi Paul run the risk of contaminating the Greek gentiles by having them associate with the Jews.."every sabbath". Why didn't he tell them.."Hey Greeks, I came here to reach the Jews but while they are coming up to speed, if they believe, I want to get you guys away from worshiping on this abrogated, obsolete, legalistic, burdensome HOLY day. Start coming tomorrow on the LORD'S DAY...I don't want you to get contaminated and used to this terrible awful SABBATH day thing. Just think how bad the Jews have gotten worshipping and making a big deal about this legalistic ritual."

5 See also ACTS 16:13, ACTS 17:2 where Paul appears to be a hypocrite as he acknowledges the OLD, ancient, burdensome, faulty, legalistic, JEWish sabbath day....which God made HOLY at least 1000 years before any JEW ever showed up on this planet.

So much for the most hated commandment of the 10.

Firefighter
Jun 18th 2008, 06:39 PM
Now where again is the NT commandment to the Gentiles to keep the Sabbath?? Oh that's right, there's not one. I forgot.

I am looking forward to your exegesis on "NO GREATER BURDEN" in Acts 15.

Show me ANY SINGLE place in scripture where ANY SINGLE gentile was EVER REQUIRED to keep the Sabbath. I dare you.

Firefighter
Jun 18th 2008, 06:47 PM
1. Since the 4 gospel accounts (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) were written 3 to 6 decades after the initiation of the new covenant era..why are there no editing comments by the authors regarding the cessation of the sabbath 4th commandemnt? John put about 8 editing comments in his account, which is regarded by most scholars as the the most recent account, yet he says nothing in chapter 5, 7 or 9 (sabbath conflict passages) about a change of worship manners. Never mind the other 3 who had an opportunity in Matt 12, Mark 2 and 3, Luke 6, 13 and 14.

2. Why did Jesus spend so much effort defending, correcting , clarifying the 4th commandment in His conflict with the Jewish clergy. If he knew He was going to trash, abrogate, obsolete the annoying, burdensome, legalistic rule...why didn't He just throw in the towel and say..."I am going to phase this stupid law out with my death."

3.Why didn't Paul tell the gentile crowd in ACTS 13:42-44..."Hey you don't need to wait a whole week to come back to hear more preaching....come tomorrow on the "LORD's DAY" ..I am just hear to reach these pharisee, legalistic, judaizer Jews..I preach Jesus and we have trashed this 4th commandment and we are in a new covenant and so we worship tomorrow. or whenever we feel like it"

4. In ACTS 18:4 ( just 2 chapters before ACTS 20:7) why didi Paul run the risk of contaminating the Greek gentiles by having them associate with the Jews.."every sabbath". Why didn't he tell them.."Hey Greeks, I came here to reach the Jews but while they are coming up to speed, if they believe, I want to get you guys away from worshiping on this abrogated, obsolete, legalistic, burdensome HOLY day. Start coming tomorrow on the LORD'S DAY...I don't want you to get contaminated and used to this terrible awful SABBATH day thing. Just think how bad the Jews have gotten worshipping and making a big deal about this legalistic ritual."

5 See also ACTS 16:13, ACTS 17:2 where Paul appears to be a hypocrite as he acknowledges the OLD, ancient, burdensome, faulty, legalistic, JEWish sabbath day....which God made HOLY at least 1000 years before any JEW ever showed up on this planet.

So much for the most hated commandment of the 10.

This entire post is arguing from silence. That would be like saying "The bible never directly says that the temple worship should stop nor does it say that sacrifices should stop, therefore we are going to continue..."

threebigrocks
Jun 18th 2008, 07:08 PM
The Ten Commandments along with the rest of the law was part of the covenant with the Jews, and as such no longer applies to the NT church.

Good! My neighbor has some really cool stuff I've always wanted. Think I'll just go take it from him.


You cannot deny the NT or the truth contained therein... Do you still sacrifice animals??? Why not?

Hebrews 10


1For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.

2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?
3But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year.
4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
"SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;
6IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.
7"THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME
(IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME)
TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.'"



You would have to provide an academically acceptable interpretation to the rulings of the Jerusalem Council found in Acts 15 to show otherwise.

Are we not now guided by the Spirit in matters of knowledge, with philisophical debate and principles of the world useless to us?


Now where again is the NT commandment to the Gentiles to keep the Sabbath?? Oh that's right, there's not one. I forgot.

I am looking forward to your exegesis on "NO GREATER BURDEN" in Acts 15.

Show me ANY SINGLE place in scripture where ANY SINGLE gentile was EVER REQUIRED to keep the Sabbath. I dare you.

Why the hostility?

yoyo7th
Jun 18th 2008, 07:08 PM
I am so glad that ACTS 15 has so few rules for the gentiles. Since I am one... I can be a mass murderer, serial rapist, child molester, bank robber and not worry about violating any of the Jerusalem counsel dictates. WHEW!!!! off the hook again!!:bounce::bounce:

HisLeast
Jun 18th 2008, 07:21 PM
I said it once and I'll say it again. I'm never going to be saved.

brakelite
Jun 18th 2008, 08:22 PM
We will all enter that same rest some day if we remain obedient:

Hebrews 4




The thing for me is that when I read the OT re the Sabbath, what I see is that God blessed the 7th day. It was the day that God blessed, not the rest. Now we can rest any time we like, any day we like, any time of the day. We also have that 'spiritual rest' in Christ that you speak of.
But none of those rests honour the day. Regardless of what we do with the rest, the day remains holy. Nowhere in scripture does God give any instruction re the change of His sanctification , blessing, or holiness of that one 7th day.

Firefighter
Jun 18th 2008, 09:14 PM
Still no response to Acts 15...:(

Firefighter
Jun 18th 2008, 09:24 PM
Nor has there been any single command from anywhere in scripture that says gentiles should obey the law...

diffangle
Jun 18th 2008, 10:11 PM
Still no response to Acts 15...:(


Nor has there been any single command from anywhere in scripture that says gentiles should obey the law...
Yoyo addressed it in a post above yours;), here it is again...


I am so glad that ACTS 15 has so few rules for the gentiles. Since I am one... I can be a mass murderer, serial rapist, child molester, bank robber and not worry about violating any of the Jerusalem counsel dictates. WHEW!!!! off the hook again!!:bounce::bounce:

davidandme
Jun 18th 2008, 11:07 PM
When Contastine, (a Roman Emperor) became a Christian, he wanted to atract as many people as he could to his new faith. At that time there were a lot of paganism going on. Most of the were sun worshipers. They worship on Sunday. So little by little the christian chruch started to compromise. Soon enough they started worshiping on Sunday instead of the Sabbath. With time, most Christians forgot about the Sabbath and made it a regular working day. This is actual history, not a denominational history.

losthorizon
Jun 18th 2008, 11:32 PM
When Contastine, (a Roman Emperor) became a Christian, he wanted to atract as many people as he could to his new faith. At that time there were a lot of paganism going on. Most of the were sun worshipers. They worship on Sunday. So little by little the christian chruch started to compromise. Soon enough they started worshiping on Sunday instead of the Sabbath. With time, most Christians forgot about the Sabbath and made it a regular working day. This is actual history, not a denominational history.
I am not sure who your "actual" historical sources are but I would say they probably have a direct connection with the SDA folks. The truth is Christians assembled on the Lord’s Day - the day Christ arose from the grave (Sunday) from the get-go (apostolic church). Philip Schaff - probably the foremost church historian whose eight-volume work covers church history from the apostles to the Reformation wrote the following historical facts…
The celebration of the Lord’s Day in memory of the resurrection of Christ dates undoubtedly from the apostolic age. Nothing short of apostolic precedent can account for the universal religious observance in the churches of the second century. There is no dissenting voice. This custom is confirmed by the testimonies of the earliest post-apostolic writers, as Barnabas, Ignatius, and Justin Martyr. It is also confirmed by the younger Pliny. The Didache calls the first day "the Lord’s Day of the Lord”… Dionysius of Corinth mentions Sunday incidentally in a letter to the church of Rome, A.D., 170: "To-day we kept the Lord’s Day holy, in which we read your letter”… Tertullian, at the close of the second…"We have nothing to do with Sabbaths, new moons or the Jewish festivals, much less with those of the heathen. We have our own solemnities, the Lord’s Day…"Sunday we give to joy.” We see then that the ante-Nicene church clearly distinguished the Christian Sunday from the Jewish Sabbath, and put it on independent Christian ground.” ~ Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church

diffangle
Jun 18th 2008, 11:56 PM
I am not sure who your "actual" historical sources are but I would say they probably have a direct connection with the SDA folks. The truth is Christians assembled on the Lord’s Day - the day Christ arose from the grave (Sunday) from the get-go (apostolic church). Philip Schaff - probably the foremost church historian whose eight-volume work covers church history from the apostles to the Reformation wrote the following historical facts…

The celebration of the Lord’s Day in memory of the resurrection of Christ dates undoubtedly from the apostolic age. Nothing short of apostolic precedent can account for the universal religious observance in the churches of the second century. There is no dissenting voice. This custom is confirmed by the testimonies of the earliest post-apostolic writers, as Barnabas, Ignatius, and Justin Martyr. It is also confirmed by the younger Pliny. The Didache calls the first day "the Lord’s Day of the Lord”… Dionysius of Corinth mentions Sunday incidentally in a letter to the church of Rome, A.D., 170: "To-day we kept the Lord’s Day holy, in which we read your letter”… Tertullian, at the close of the second…"We have nothing to do with Sabbaths, new moons or the Jewish festivals, much less with those of the heathen. We have our own solemnities, the Lord’s Day…"Sunday we give to joy.” We see then that the ante-Nicene church clearly distinguished the Christian Sunday from the Jewish Sabbath, and put it on independent Christian ground.” ~ Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity#Early_church_practice



It is known that some (perhaps many) early Gentile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentile) Christians openly observed the seventh-day Sabbath; some of these early Christians kept the seventh-day Sabbath in conjunction with a first-day Sunday worship.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] The Council of Laodicea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Laodicea) around CE 365 attempted to put a stop to the practice.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity#cite_note-22) Some conjecture, then, that prior to the Laodicean council Saturday was observed as a Sabbath and Sunday as a day of worship, primarily in Palestine; but after the Laodicean Council, resting on the Sabbath was forbidden.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] This is often considered an attempt of the early Christian church to distance itself from Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism) which had become unpopular in the Roman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire) after the Jewish-Roman wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish-Roman_wars) (see also Constantine and the Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I_and_Christianity#Constantine_and_the _Jews) and Homilies against the Jews (Chrysostom) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Chrysostom#Homilies_Against_the_Jews)).

By Faith
Jun 19th 2008, 12:18 AM
He blessed it because of His rest on that day. We must read the entire scripture. Also no you will still be working until you enter into God's rest and that is not offered again until you cease working which also means complete and we know that compeletion will come when Jesus comes. Read Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 it details rest and the author doesn't mean heaven otherwise he would have said it, because he talks about heaven in ch 4 v 14. So we know from there that there is a difference. Also v 9 chapter 4 futher proves this point.

Hope this helps.

losthorizon
Jun 19th 2008, 12:35 AM
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity#Early_church_practice
Who is your historian and where are his/her cited sources that appear to be missing in action? Do you also believe the Sabbatarian fable that "sun worshipers" changed the Sabbath to Sunday at the time of Constantine or did the apostolic church celebrate the resurrection of the Christ on the first day of the week as the NT and the historical record tell us?

davidandme
Jun 19th 2008, 02:10 AM
This is a true story, look a up in the wikipidia. Since you mention a denomination. I am glad you are aquainted with the SDA church. But it was the Catholic (world church) finance and supported by this emperor that little by little changed the times and laws.
Please read Daniel 7:25

And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

davidandme
Jun 19th 2008, 02:16 AM
The lord's day is the Sabbath. Jesus said: I am the lord of the Sabbath. There is overwhelming evidence for this including in the new and old testament. Please read the following texts:

Exd 16:23 And he said unto them, This [is that] which the LORD hath said, To morrow [is] the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake [that] which ye will bake [to day], and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
Exd 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
Exd 20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
Exd 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exd 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day [is] the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work [therein]: it [is] the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day [shall be] a sabbath, and on the eighth day [shall be] a sabbath.
Lev 24:8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, [being taken] from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.
Lev 25:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD.
Lev 25:4 But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard.
Deu 5:14 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
2Ki 11:7 And two parts of all you that go forth on the sabbath, even they shall keep the watch of the house of the LORD about the king.
2Ki 16:18 And the covert for the sabbath that they had built in the house, and the king's entry without, turned he from the house of the LORD for the king of Assyria.
2Ch 36:21 To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: [for] as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking [thine own] words:
Jer 17:21 Thus saith the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring [it] in by the gates of Jerusalem;
Jer 17:24 And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith the LORD, to bring in no burden through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but hallow the sabbath day, to do no work therein;
Eze 46:1 Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Luk 13:15 The Lord then answered him, and said, [Thou] hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or [his] ass from the stall, and lead [him] away to watering?

davidandme
Jun 19th 2008, 02:21 AM
Why is the first day of the week called Sunday?

losthorizon
Jun 19th 2008, 02:31 AM
This is a true story, look a up in the wikipidia.


I hope you understand how Wikipedia works – it is only as reliable as the one who adds to its information bank – credentials are not needed.


Since you mention a denomination. I am glad you are aquainted with the SDA church. But it was the Catholic (world church) finance and supported by this emperor that little by little changed the times and laws.
Please read Daniel 7:25
I am familiar with both organizations and you are quite mistaken. The church of God celebrated the Lord’s Day as the day of the Lord’s resurrection centuries before the “emperor” was even born. These are the facts of history not some silly Wiki article that doesn’t even cite its sources. Are you a member of the SDA church?


And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
The prophecy has nothing to do with the Lord’s Day.

losthorizon
Jun 19th 2008, 02:35 AM
Why is the first day of the week called Sunday?
For the same reason Monday is the Moon's day and the seventh day is referred to as Saturday – aka – Saturn-day. Do you worship Saturn?

losthorizon
Jun 19th 2008, 02:40 AM
The lord's day is the Sabbath.


The Lord’s Day is the first day of the week – the day Christ arose from the grave. The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week.

Kahtar
Jun 19th 2008, 03:03 AM
He rested not us:) because of the fall we are now working to achieve the greatness to enter into God's rest. So as a punishment we have to work:) ironic huh...God is a force to be reckoning with :)I am surprised no one addressed this post.:eek:
'We are now working to achieve the greatness to enter into God's rest'?
Do you not know, my friend, that all your work will never achieve that?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Do you not know that you are a worm, a sinner, and your only worth is and will ever be the pits of hell? That only by God's unmerited GRACE can you possibly hope to enter into God's kingdom?


Now we strive to enter into God's rest
All our striving will get us nowhere. You cannot possibly earn your way into God's Presence. There is only ONE way, and that is by the blood of Jesus Christ, which HE shed in YOUR place.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

But perhaps you simply mistated your intent and you know all this already.

Kahtar
Jun 19th 2008, 03:30 AM
Nor has there been any single command from anywhere in scripture that says gentiles should obey the law...
Now here is an interesting statement. Let me see if I can answer this for you:
Ephesians 6:1-3 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. (2) Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) (3) That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. (9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1 John 2:3-7 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (5) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. (6) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (7) Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2 John 1:5-6 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. (6) And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Someone suggested that the law was part of the covenant with Moses, and, that is a true statement. What was not said, however, is that God's law predated Moses by about 2000 years, and that it was INCLUDED in the covenant with Moses.
Now of course, we have a new covenant, and all the ordinances of the temple and sacrifices and judicial proceedings are done away with, as well as the hundreds of the 'commandments of men'.
But the new covenant also includes God's law. God's law will not be 'done away with' until heaven and earth have passed, and probably not even then.
God's law is summed up by two, Love God, and Love your Neighbor. And all ten, which have been from the beginning, fit into one or the other of those.
God's law says to worship only God. If that law is done away, then it is now okay to worship whoever we want.
God's law says not to worship graven images, but if that's done away with, we can now worship all the images we want, including the images on TV.
God's law to honor our parents, but if that law is done away, it is now okay to dishonor them.
God's law says to not kill, steal, lie, commit adultery or covet, but if it's done away with, it's now okay to kill our neighbor instead of loving him, steal from him instead of giving to him, lie to him instead of speaking the word of truth, etc, etc.
Let me just reiterate I John 2:4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

manichunter
Jun 19th 2008, 03:41 AM
Now here is an interesting statement. Let me see if I can answer this for you:
Let me just reiterate I John 2:4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


This what I have been saying, you said a mouthful with this one scripture. John said what, keep His commandments if you love Him........... It is act of creating the environment for the relationship. Sin and lawlessness strain and puts strife in our relationship with God. Keeping the commandments creates intimacy and peace in our relationship with God.

Kahtar
Jun 19th 2008, 03:43 AM
Sabbath in the New Testament?
Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled [them] in condemning [him].
Acts 13:42-44 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. (43) Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. (44) And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted [thither].
Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Paul certainly kept the sabbath, as did the other Apostles, and, as seen in Acts 13:42-44, so did many of the Gentiles in the beginning.
And if a person chooses to keep Saturday Holy, there is certainly nothing wrong with that.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:
But are we commanded to keep the sabbath, seeing that Christ is now our sabbath (Whom we ARE able to enter into NOW)?
Romans 14:4-6 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. (5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. (6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
The day we worship is not nearly as important as WHO we worship.
But as for the commandments, there is this:
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Naphal
Jun 19th 2008, 04:27 AM
Ergatēs... without the OT the NT has no foundation :D

This really isn't true. Both were initiated by God and thus has God as it's foundation. The NT is fully able to stand on it's own but the OT is a wonderful teacher and lesson in history (his-story). To suggest the NT cannot stand on it's own is just inaccurate IMO.

Zack702
Jun 19th 2008, 04:33 AM
Do you not know that you are a worm, a sinner, and your only worth is and will ever be the pits of hell? That only by God's unmerited GRACE can you possibly hope to enter into God's kingdom?


If you ask me personally good works are the solution to ALL our problems.

Jesus Christ can save us from our sins but will not save workers of iniquity. So this is evidence that we should/must turn from iniquity and do good works. Works alone cannot save us but can faith alone?...

"26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

"Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."


"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

And if I be a worm then even a worm is called to do good works so we might glorify the Father. And in that the worm has great worth.

Kahtar
Jun 19th 2008, 04:37 AM
Didn't say we shouldn't do good works. Far from it. I DID say however that our good works do nothing for our righteousness.
We cannot earn our way into heaven. But we ARE commanded to obey the commandment of God, and we are told to do good works.
The purpose of the works is the issue.

Zack702
Jun 19th 2008, 04:48 AM
The purpose of the work is that your faith be made true and your heart testifies so. In this way your work combined with your faith is your path to heaven. So for me it is true that we are working for heaven and I consider this is a good thing to keep in mind while we do our works.

Naphal
Jun 19th 2008, 05:10 AM
The thing for me is that when I read the OT re the Sabbath, what I see is that God blessed the 7th day. It was the day that God blessed, not the rest.

This is true but the reason the day was blessed was because it was the day he choose to rest on. It is NOT blessed without the resting! There is nothing blessed about a Saturday on it's on merits! However, our rest is not commanded on that one day any longer so it's a moot issue.

Naphal
Jun 19th 2008, 05:14 AM
Why the hostility?



Why the sarcasm:




Good! My neighbor has some really cool stuff I've always wanted. Think I'll just go take it from him.


You know fully well that no Christian thinks it's ok to steal. The law against stealing is in the law of Christ! Why use this weak argument when you know it isn't valid?

manichunter
Jun 19th 2008, 06:38 AM
This is true but the reason the day was blessed was because it was the day he choose to rest on. It is NOT blessed without the resting! There is nothing blessed about a Saturday on it's on merits! However, our rest is not commanded on that one day any longer so it's a moot issue.


So there nothing wrong with some choosing to observe Sabbath, right.

Naphal
Jun 19th 2008, 06:40 AM
So there nothing wrong with some choosing to observe Sabbath, right.

Nothing wrong with choosing a Saturday, nor nothing wrong with choosing a Sunday!

davidandme
Jun 19th 2008, 12:51 PM
Not according to Scriptures.

Firefighter
Jun 19th 2008, 12:52 PM
Manichunter, there is nothing in this world wrong with choosing to observe the Sabbath (or feasts, or holy days). The only problem I have is people trying to force the Sabbath onto people as a NT obligation. Scripture simply does not bare that out... no more than scripture says that choosing to uphold the Sabbath (or feasts, or holy days) is wrong.

davidandme
Jun 19th 2008, 12:56 PM
Ok, you don't trust wikipidia. I guess I have to repect that. I am sure that there are many other sources. The prophesy of change times and laws. What is the Sabbath? (Lord's day) A day (time period) sanctified by God.

yoyo7th
Jun 19th 2008, 02:57 PM
As far as the example of the early church regarding worship??

Look at the record of the 7 churches in Revelation. I am not that impressed...already 5 of the 7 churches were messing up.

Want to follow the crowd or JESUS?

Also..LORD's DAY..

God calls only one day his in scripture..IS 58:13
Want to follow GOD or the compromising early church who were advised to repent or DIE???

Are you a typical worldly conformist who is intimidated by peer pressure?
That is what fearful (REV 21:8) churchians do.
Paul says to do otherwise (Rom 12:2)

Authentic Chrsitians choose to obey GOD rather than men (Acts 5:29)
:bounce::bounce:

RabbiKnife
Jun 19th 2008, 03:04 PM
You guys are kidding, right?

Someone actually believes that Saturday is holy?

Paul certainly didn't think so.

Firefighter
Jun 19th 2008, 03:05 PM
Then by all means, show us the NT command to follow the sabbath...

manichunter
Jun 19th 2008, 04:02 PM
Where there are more references of public assemblies and holy convocations on Sabbath than the first day. By the way, why wasn't the first day name changed in Scripture to reflect its new importance. The first day was always the beginning of the work week. Hence it is only use in this manner within Scripture since Jews did not do labor on Sabbath. Here are examples of worship and instruction on Sabbath.

Mt 24:20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:20&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en)And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. (Jesus' reference of the Sabbath existing after His death and resurrection and endorses it by praying over it) Ac 13:42 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+13:42&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.Ac 13:44 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+13:44&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.Ac 16:13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+16:13&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.Ac 18:4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:4&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks. Here is example of worship and instruction on the first day
Ac 20:7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+20:7&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight. (They came together to eat and Paul decided to speak before his departing) Paul never denounces the Sabbath. He went to Sabbath services as listed on a regular basis. If Paul was so aggressive about telling people that physical circumcision was no longer required, then why did he not say the same about meetings for Sabbath. As known by Scripture, Paul had no problem correcting anybody. Paul never corrected anybody regarding the observance of Sabbath. Paul himself practice torah. Christians conviently ignore his practice of torah.Ac 17:2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+17:2&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,Ac 18:18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:18&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) So Paul still remained a good while. Then he took leave of the brethren and sailed for Syria, and Priscilla and Aquila were with him. He had his hair cut off at Cenchrea, for he had taken a vow.Ac 20:16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+20:16&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he was hurrying to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the Day of Pentecost.Ac 21:26 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21:26&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having been purified with them, entered the temple to announce the expiration of the days of purification, at which time an offering should be made for each one of them.

People act like God would change or not give us clear and accurate commandments, when His words say:
Ac 14:17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+14:17&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Nevertheless He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good, gave us rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness."Heb 10:15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=heb+10:15&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,De 31:26 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+31:26&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en)"Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;Jos 24:27 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=jos+24:27&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -And Joshua said to all the people, "Behold, this stone shall be a witness to us, for it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us. It shall therefore be a witness to you, lest you deny your God."

Firefighter
Jun 19th 2008, 04:18 PM
No greater burden...

Buck shot
Jun 19th 2008, 04:41 PM
Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

If you live under the law you MUST obey every part, not just the Sabbath. Praise God, He has paid the price for my sins :pp
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

matthew94
Jun 19th 2008, 05:08 PM
The 7th day (what we call Friday evening to Saturday evening) was, indeed, set apart under the Old Covenant. It is still set apart, but under the New Covenant each of the other days is 'set apart' too. In other words, the NT does not DOWNGRADE Saturday, it UPGRADES each of the other days. Now every day is holy unto the Lord. As Christians, we celebrate a perpetual Sabbath (rest from works) by relying on the work of Jesus Christ our Lord. We are free, in Christ, to choose a particular day of the week to rest physically (often Saturday is chosen for this) and to assemble together (often Sunday is chosen for this).

manichunter
Jun 19th 2008, 05:26 PM
The 7th day (what we call Friday evening to Saturday evening) was, indeed, set apart under the Old Covenant. It is still set apart, but under the New Covenant each of the other days is 'set apart' too. In other words, the NT does not DOWNGRADE Saturday, it UPGRADES each of the other days. Now every day is holy unto the Lord. As Christians, we celebrate a perpetual Sabbath (rest from works) by relying on the work of Jesus Christ our Lord. We are free, in Christ, to choose a particular day of the week to rest physically (often Saturday is chosen for this) and to assemble together (often Sunday is chosen for this).

This is all good, everyday is esteemed as day of worship whether personal or congregational. I was just trying to say who had the authority to change the public assembly (Holy Convocation) day to Sunday. Yes Sabbath is a day of rest from regular labors, which frees us for total worship, attention, and duty toward God as an assembly.

davidandme
Jun 19th 2008, 05:28 PM
Sorry, but that is not Biblical. We are living at the end of times. Brothers, it's time to get back to the Bible and and forget the teachings of men. God bless.

matthew94
Jun 19th 2008, 06:04 PM
The Sabbath was clearly a ceremonial law. Ceremonial law pointed forward to Christ. We are not obligated to keep the Sabbath just like we are not obligated to sacrifice animals or go to the temple.

Since most of the first Christians were Jewish, they tended to keep the Sabbath as part of their Jewish culture (no longer as obligation). As gentiles were added into the church, they had no culture telling them to keep the Sabbath and no command from Jesus telling them to keep the Sabbath and so, naturally, they tended not to keep the Sabbath. Most early Christians (Jewish & Gentile alike) celebrated Sunday as the Lord's Day in honor of the resurrection. They knew Sunday wasn't the Sabbath, but it had its own value as the day of Resurrection.

When Constantine converted, the majority of the church was Gentile instead of Jewish and so there weren't many keeping the cultural Sabbath anymore. He saw the church celebrating the resurrection each Sunday. Since the empire soon became a 'Christian' empire there were a lot of 'nominal' and/or 'uninformed' members of the church who didn't understand that Sunday (when many Christians were celebrating) was not the Sabbath of the Old Testament. And so many came to think of Sunday as the Sabbath (ask the average church-goer when the Sabbath is and they will say 'Sunday').

But, like I said, Sunday is not the Sabbath, it is just the day in which we celebrate the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It's a day the church has traditionally assembled together. Christians are under no obligation to keep the Saturday Sabbath OR to assemble on Sunday. They are just cultural traditions that may or may not make sense. For me, for example, it does make sense to physically rest on Saturday (my only day off) and to assemble together on Sunday (since I'm pastoring in 2 churches).

manichunter
Jun 19th 2008, 06:10 PM
The Sabbath was clearly a ceremonial law. Ceremonial law pointed forward to Christ. We are not obligated to keep the Sabbath just like we are not obligated to sacrifice animals or go to the temple.

Since most of the first Christians were Jewish, they tended to keep the Sabbath as part of their Jewish culture (no longer as obligation). As gentiles were added into the church, they had no culture telling them to keep the Sabbath and no command from Jesus telling them to keep the Sabbath and so, naturally, they tended not to keep the Sabbath. Most early Christians (Jewish & Gentile alike) celebrated Sunday as the Lord's Day in honor of the resurrection. They knew Sunday wasn't the Sabbath, but it had its own value as the day of Resurrection.

When Constantine converted, the majority of the church was Gentile instead of Jewish and so there weren't many keeping the cultural Sabbath anymore. He saw the church celebrating the resurrection each Sunday. Since the empire soon became a 'Christian' empire there were a lot of 'nominal' and/or 'uninformed' members of the church who didn't understand that Sunday (when many Christians were celebrating) was not the Sabbath of the Old Testament. And so many came to think of Sunday as the Sabbath (ask the average church-goer when the Sabbath is and they will say 'Sunday').

But, like I said, Sunday is not the Sabbath, it is just the day in which we celebrate the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It's a day the church has traditionally assembled together. Christians are under no obligation to keep the Saturday Sabbath OR to assemble on Sunday. They are just cultural traditions that may or may not make sense. For me, for example, it does make sense to physically rest on Saturday (my only day off) and to assemble together on Sunday (since I'm pastoring in 2 churches).

Good knowledge brother........ I by no means will discourage your eagerness. However, I do have a problem with man establishing his own traditions along side Scripture as the Pharisees and others like them did before. It becomes a dangerous slope which has led to many cults entrapping Christians who follow traditions that attempt to nullify Scripture. Who is to say but Scripture, what man made tradition has violated Scripture. Thanks for the Word, kind sir.

Naphal
Jun 20th 2008, 12:21 AM
Good knowledge brother........ I by no means will discourage your eagerness. However, I do have a problem with man establishing his own traditions along side Scripture as the Pharisees and others like them did before. It becomes a dangerous slope which has led to many cults entrapping Christians who follow traditions that attempt to nullify Scripture. Who is to say but Scripture, what man made tradition has violated Scripture. Thanks for the Word, kind sir.

Treating Saturdays the same as any other day is not unscriptural nor is it man made tradition that entraps anyone. You have been mislead to believe that Christians have to keep the Saturday Sabbath when that is not scriptural.

manichunter
Jun 20th 2008, 05:44 AM
Treating Saturdays the same as any other day is not unscriptural nor is it man made tradition that entraps anyone. You have been mislead to believe that Christians have to keep the Saturday Sabbath when that is not scriptural.

I left it as nuetral as possible. Why did you have to kick the hornets nest. Ok sit Divine Scriptural Authority commanding Saints to observe everyday as a Sabbath, or not to observe Sabbath at all.

Here go a few sources that detail that our topic is centuries old. It is not a new debate. We are re-living the same cycle. The first half is from the eastern Hebrew prospective that tells of believers celebrating the Sabbath well into the 5th century until violent perscecution force them to conform to Sunday worship. The second half is from the western Greek/Roman prospective that tells of the move from Sabbath to Sunday by human reasoning and perogative. The propents of the second prospective eventual won. The doctrine we practice today comes from them the winners of the debate centuries. Is that divine providence or the might makes right of the victor? Notice the ethnicity of the writers tells you something about their prospective.

Italy AND EAST-C 4th

"It was the practice generally of the Easterne Churches; and some churches of the west...For in the Church of Millaine (Milan);...it seems the Saturday was held in a farre esteeme... Not that the Easterne Churches, or any of the rest which observed that day, were inclined to Iudaisme (Judaism); but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Iesus (Jesus) Christ the Lord of the Sabbath." "History of the Sabbath" (original spelling retained), Part 2, par. 5, pp.73, 74. London: 1636. Dr. Heylyn.

Italy - Milan

"Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb, 'When you are in Rome, do as Rome does.'" Heylyn, "The History of the Sabbath" (1612)

Orient And Most Of World

"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observance of Saturday, or the seventh day...It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival...Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assembles on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." "Antiquities of the Christian Church," Vol.II Book XX, chap. 3, sec.1, 66. 1137,1138.

Abyssinia - Remnants of Philip's Evangelism

"In the last half of that century St. Ambrose of Milan stated officially that the Abyssinian bishop, Museus, had 'traveled almost everywhere in the country of the Seres' (China). For more than seventeen centuries the Abyssinian Church continued to sanctify Saturday as the holy day of the fourth commandment." Ambrose, DeMoribus, Brachmanorium Opera Ominia, 1132, found in Migne, Patrologia Latima, Vol.17, pp.1131,1132.

Arabia, Persia, India, China

"Mingana proves that in 370 A.D. Abyssinian Christianity (a Sabbath keeping church) was so popular that its famous director, Musacus, travelled extensively in the East promoting the church in Arabia, Persia, India and China." "Truth Triumphant,"p.308 (Footnote 27). (Page numbers vary in this Online version)

Spain - Council Elvira (A.D.305)

Canon 26 of the Council of Elvira reveals that the Church of Spainat that time kept Saturday, the seventh day. "As to fasting every Sabbath: Resolved, that the error be corrected of fasting every Sabbath." This resolution of the council is in direct opposition to the policy the church at Rome had inaugurated, that of commanding Sabbath as a fast day in order to humiliate it and make it repugnant to the people.

Spain

It is a point of further interest to note that in north-eastern Spainnear the city of Barcelona is a city called Sabadell, in a district originaly inhabited. By a people called both "Valldenses" and Sabbatati."

Persia-A.D. 335-375 (40 Years Persecution Under Shapur II)

The popular complaint against the Christians-"They despise our sungod, they have divine services on Saturday, they desecrate the sacred the earth by burying their dead in it." Truth Triumphant," (Online Version p. 261)

Persia-A.D.335-375

"They despise our sun-god. Did not Zorcaster, the sainted founder of our divine beliefs, institute Sunday one thousand years ago in honour of the sun and supplant the Sabbath of the Old Testament. Yet these Christians have divine services on Saturday." O'Leary, "The Syriac Church and Fathers," pp.83, 84.

Council Laodicea - A.D.365

"Canon 16-On Saturday the Gospels and other portions of the Scripture shall be read aloud." "Canon 29-Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day." Hefele's "Councils," Vol. 2, b. 6. (See an online version of this council on the Roman Catholic New Advent website - see Canon 29)
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The Letter of Barnabas
"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).


Ignatius of Antioch
"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).


Justin Martyr
"[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . ." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]).

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).


Tertullian
"[L]et him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day . . . teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered ‘friends of God.’ For if circumcision purges a man, since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did he not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? . . . Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering him sacrifices, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was by him [God] commended [Gen. 4:1–7, Heb. 11:4]. . . . Noah also, uncircumcised—yes, and unobservant of the Sabbath—God freed from the deluge. For Enoch too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, he translated from this world, who did not first taste death in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God" (An Answer to the Jews 2 [A.D. 203]).


The Didascalia
"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because on the first day of the week [i.e., Sunday] our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven" (Didascalia 2 [A.D. 225]).


Origen
"Hence it is not possible that the [day of] rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh [day] of our God. On the contrary, it is our Savior who, after the pattern of his own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of his death, and hence also of his resurrection" (Commentary on John 2:28 [A.D. 229]).


Victorinus
"The sixth day [Friday] is called parasceve, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. . . . On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God or a fast. On the seventh day he rested from all his works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord’s day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews . . . which Sabbath he [Christ] in his body abolished" (The Creation of the World [A.D. 300]).


Eusebius of Caesarea
"They [the early saints of the Old Testament] did not care about circumcision of the body, neither do we [Christians]. They did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we. They did not avoid certain kinds of food, neither did they regard the other distinctions which Moses first delivered to their posterity to be observed as symbols; nor do Christians of the present day do such things" (Church History 1:4:8 [A.D. 312]).

"[T]he day of his [Christ’s] light . . . was the day of his resurrection from the dead, which they say, as being the one and only truly holy day and the Lord’s day, is better than any number of days as we ordinarily understand them, and better than the days set apart by the Mosaic law for feasts, new moons, and Sabbaths, which the apostle [Paul] teaches are the shadow of days and not days in reality" (Proof of the Gospel 4:16:186 [A.D. 319]).

John Chrysostom
"[W]hen he [God] said, ‘You shall not kill’ . . . he did not add, ‘because murder is a wicked thing.’ The reason was that conscience had taught this beforehand, and he speaks thus, as to those who know and understand the point. Wherefore when he speaks to us of another commandment, not known to us by the dictate of conscience, he not only prohibits, but adds the reason. When, for instance, he gave commandment concerning the Sabbath— ‘On the seventh day you shall do no work’—he subjoined also the reason for this cessation. What was this? ‘Because on the seventh day God rested from all his works which he had begun to make’ [Ex. 20:10-11]. . . . For what purpose then, I ask, did he add a reason respecting the Sabbath, but did no such thing in regard to murder? Because this commandment was not one of the leading ones. It was not one of those which were accurately defined of our conscience, but a kind of partial and temporary one, and for this reason it was abolished afterward. But those which are necessary and uphold our life are the following: ‘You shall not kill. . . . You shall not commit adultery. . . . You shall not steal.’ On this account he adds no reason in this case, nor enters into any instruction on the matter, but is content with the bare prohibition" (Homilies on the Statutes 12:9 [A.D. 387]).

"You have put on Christ, you have become a member of the Lord and been enrolled in the heavenly city, and you still grovel in the law [of Moses]? How is it possible for you to obtain the kingdom? Listen to Paul’s words, that the observance of the law overthrows the gospel, and learn, if you will, how this comes to pass, and tremble, and shun this pitfall. Why do you keep the Sabbath and fast with the Jews?" (Homilies on Galatians 2:17 [A.D. 395]).

"The rite of circumcision was venerable in the Jews’ account, forasmuch as the law itself gave way thereto, and the Sabbath was less esteemed than circumcision. For that circumcision might be performed, the Sabbath was broken; but that the Sabbath might be kept, circumcision was never broken; and mark, I pray, the dispensation of God. This is found to be even more solemn than the Sabbath, as not being omitted at certain times. When then it is done away, much more is the Sabbath" (Homilies on Philippians 10 [A.D. 402]).


The Apostolic Constitutions
"And on the day of our Lord’s resurrection, which is the Lord’s day, meet more diligently, sending praise to God that made the universe by Jesus, and sent him to us, and condescended to let him suffer, and raised him from the dead. Otherwise what apology will he make to God who does not assemble on that day . . . in which is performed the reading of the prophets, the preaching of the gospel, the oblation of the sacrifice, the gift of the holy food" (Apostolic Constitutions 2:7:60 [A.D. 400]).


Augustine
"Well, now, I should like to be told what there is in these ten commandments, except the observance of the Sabbath, which ought not to be kept by a Christian. . . . Which of these commandments would anyone say that the Christian ought not to keep? It is possible to contend that it is not the law which was written on those two tables that the apostle [Paul] describes as ‘the letter that kills’ [2 Cor. 3:6], but the law of circumcision and the other sacred rites which are now abolished" (The Spirit and the Letter 24 [A.D. 412]).

Firefighter
Jun 20th 2008, 12:36 PM
However, I do have a problem with man establishing his own traditions along side Scripture as the Pharisees and others like them did before. It becomes a dangerous slope which has led to many cults entrapping Christians who follow traditions that attempt to nullify Scripture. Who is to say but Scripture, what man made tradition has violated Scripture.


May I ask what Bible you use??? You cannot possibly have the courage of your convictions concerning tradition...:o

davidandme
Jun 20th 2008, 02:50 PM
When a person sins, he/she is under the Law. Because the Law is like a mirror, it shows you your sins. So in that sence the Law condems you. Once you confess your sins then you are under grace. Grace washes away your sins. Allow me to use this ilustration. Law= mirror. God or the blood of Jesus =soap. There is a very famous hynm that goes like this: What can wash away my sins, nothing but the blood of Jesus. But before you ask Jesus to wash away your sins, you must know that you are sinning, correct?

threebigrocks
Jun 20th 2008, 02:53 PM
I left it as nuetral as possible. Why did you have to kick the hornets nest. Ok sit Divine Scriptural Authority commanding Saints to observe everyday as a Sabbath, or not to observe Sabbath at all.

Here go a few sources that detail that our topic is centuries old. It is not a new debate. We are re-living the same cycle.

Can you show me where this is a huge deal for those under grace? So long as we do not fall into observing the law and thus under the law, remaining under grace, there is no reason to "kick the hornets nest".


Galatians 2


17"But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!

18"For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor.
19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.
20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."


Romans 14



4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.



Are we not dead to the law which ruled our flesh? Are we not supposed to live in the Spirit under grace?
What you have posted is not much more than tradition and history. Tradition is not always bad, but it depends on the heart.

yoyo7th
Jun 20th 2008, 04:08 PM
Humans are rebellious offspring of Adam and Eve..See also Jer 17:9 and Rom 8:7 They are law trashing/GOD haters.

We will stand at the judgement seat of Jesus, not an early church father, Paul or some clergy who corrupted the truth.

There are 75-100 verses in the gospels and Acts...inspired by the HOLY spirit related to the 4th commandment sabbath day...with ZERO hint of any change or abrogation.
Matt 12:1-12, end of Mark 2 and 3 Luke 6, 13, 14.23:56.John 5, 7 and 9
Then in Acts 13:42-44, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4..

It includes Jesus saying the sabbath was made for man and ..it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days and Paul's manner of including the gentiles in his teaching on the sabbath days....

The trashing of the sabbath commandment doctrine makes JESUS appear to be a clueless, stupid , retarded, idiotic fool. The SPIRIT inspires all of this conflict dialog related to the Pharisees etc and makes ZERO mention that he was going to trash it as soon as he was resurrected....DUH!!!!

And how come MR authority on the new covenant PAUL contaminated the gentiles by having them hang arounfd the JEWS while he was teaching on the sabbath??? HE should have chased them away!!!!! and should have said..."we people, in the know, meet tomorrow.We are not airhead OLD covenant legalistic, weak in the faith ,weirdos who are under a TREMENDOUS BURDEN!!!"

RabbiKnife
Jun 20th 2008, 04:29 PM
So when Paul teaches that we should judge no man by his choice of holy day of whether he keeps a festival of a new moon or whatever, you think he is full of skubalon?

How about when he told the Judaisers that were demanding Gentile believers to be cirucmcised that they should go emasculate themselves?

You seem to totally ignore the fact that the Old Covenant is no more and that the New Covenant of Jesus Christ created for believers a new sabbath, a perpetual sabbath rest in Jesus Christ himself.

Think I'll go have a bacon sammich now.

davidandme
Jun 20th 2008, 06:06 PM
When a person sins, he/she is under the Law. Because the Law is like a mirror, it shows you your sins. So in that sence the Law condems you. Once you confess your sins then you are under grace. Grace washes away your sins. Allow me to use this ilustration. Law= mirror. God or the blood of Jesus =soap. There is a very famous hynm that goes like this: What can wash away my sins, nothing but the blood of Jesus. But before you ask Jesus to wash away your sins, you must know that you are sinning, correct? Please be careful when you read something that Paul wrote. Listen to what Peter said regarding Paul writtings.

2 Peter 3: 15-16

and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
2Pe 3:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=2Pe&chapter=3&version=NKJV#) as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Firefighter
Jun 20th 2008, 06:54 PM
{edit: quoted material removed}
I think some people said the same thing about Paul and Stephen... oh, that's right they did! I can feel the love!

Act 18:13 saying, "This man is persuading people to worship God contrary to the law."

Act 6:12-14 And they stirred up the people and the elders and the scribes, and they came upon him and seized him and brought him before the council, and they set up false witnesses who said, "This man never ceases to speak words against this holy place and the law, for we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and will change the customs that Moses delivered to us."

RabbiKnife
Jun 20th 2008, 07:17 PM
The reason that one would never refer to Ez. 45:17 in their exegesis of Collosians is because Ez. is NOT IN THE TEXT of Collosians. Proper exegesis requires one to first deal with the text before going outside of the text for additional information of interpretation. We don't get the pleasure of lifting favorite verses out of their contexts and then demanding that they control all of Scripture. When interpreting the NT, proper exegesis requires one to first look within the rest of the NT for additional insight BEFORE turning to the OT.

YoYo, you take your rest on Friday night and Saturday and struggle the rest of the week under the weight of the law. I'll take my Sabbath rest in the Lord of Shabat every day.

Sort of gives me a hankering for bacon-wrapped shrimp and scallops. Maybe some veal and milk stew.

:cool:

watchinginawe
Jun 20th 2008, 07:41 PM
This thread is on notice. If this topic can't be discussed respectfully in this thread then it won't be discussed at all. Please take care in your posts.

By Faith
Jun 21st 2008, 02:20 AM
I am surprised no one addressed this post.:eek:
'We are now working to achieve the greatness to enter into God's rest'?
Do you not know, my friend, that all your work will never achieve that?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Do you not know that you are a worm, a sinner, and your only worth is and will ever be the pits of hell? That only by God's unmerited GRACE can you possibly hope to enter into God's kingdom?


All our striving will get us nowhere. You cannot possibly earn your way into God's Presence. There is only ONE way, and that is by the blood of Jesus Christ, which HE shed in YOUR place.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

But perhaps you simply mistated your intent and you know all this already.


Hi My friend...I don't think that I am mistaken. I am pretty sure that I am accurate in what I said. I think the issue is you haven't read up on the God's Rest (see Gen on the 7th day He rested from...) not the same as Heaven. This rest was offered to the isralites but because they denied God even though he walked with them for 40 years in His wrath He said They would never enter into my rest. This rest is not the promise land for the promisethat some will enter into my rest was renewed with Joshua. The promise to enter into God's rest as long as we remain obdient to the word of God is still an active promise to us the believers. For more scriptoral refrence please read my previous post, because it has them in there. I encourage you to read Heb 3 and 4 to get a better understanding of God's rest. Entering into God's rest has absolutely nothing to do with Good works, but like Paul states Good works is coupled with Faith it is not the quantity of your work but the quality...but that is a whole other issue. I am not going to argue it...just keep directing you to Hebrews chapter 3 and 4. You said you striving will get us no where...you are very mistaken we must continually strive for excellence. You will never receive perfection but in your strides you get closer and closer to a awesome personal relationship with God. You can not be complancent in your faith. The Pauline doctrine speaks about this. As far as John 14:6 you can't enter into the rest if you haven't received the salvation and that obviously goes through Jesus, so again all this goes back to you 1. either not understanding the scripture or 2. You never read it...so I highly suggest you read it. Than let me know what you think about it.


Hope This Helps

davidandme
Jun 21st 2008, 02:57 AM
The Ten commandments are not ceremonial. They are the eternal character of God. They were put inside the ark. The eternal laws of God has been from the very beggining. If there are no law then there is no sin. Sin is the trasgression of the Law. Ceremonial laws were a shadow of things to come. They are 2 types of Laws. Have a great day.

davidandme
Jun 21st 2008, 02:59 AM
Two types of Laws. I am tired of typing this. :)

brakelite
Jun 21st 2008, 05:42 AM
I refer you to Acts 15 and the Council of Jerusalem...

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.

These were the things the Jerusalem Council determined the Gentiles were to follow, these were the ONLY NECESSARY THINGS that were listed by the Apostles concerning the law...

Isa 58:13 ¶ If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.


God calls the Sabbath ...
1. A delight
2. Holy
3. Honourable.

Ergates calls the Sabbath...
1. A burden.

Naphal
Jun 21st 2008, 06:04 AM
Isa 58:13 ¶ If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.


God calls the Sabbath ...
1. A delight
2. Holy
3. Honourable.

Ergates calls the Sabbath...
1. A burden.

You err. He did not say it, he merely quoted scripture. All the old law is a burden to those in the new covenant.

the law entangles with the yoke of bondage- Galatians 5:1

manichunter
Jun 21st 2008, 07:14 AM
You err. He did not say it, he merely quoted scripture. All the old law is a burden to those in the new covenant.

the law entangles with the yoke of bondage- Galatians 5:1

Only those who live according to the flesh (they will be judge by a law that makes them accountable for their own sins). Those who follow the letter of the law (the law is no longer of the shadows which were never adequate for flesh to accomplish). The burden has been lifted by the Spirit who is our helper and we are yoked to Christ. What kingdom or judge does not have a law. The type of law should be everyone's aim to discover.

Naphal
Jun 21st 2008, 07:17 AM
Only those who live in according to the flesh. Those who follow the letter of the law. The burden has been lifted by the Spirit who is our helper and we are yoked to Christ. What kingdom or judge does not have a law. The type of law should be everyone's aim to discover.

Do you preach following the letter of any part of the law? I seem to recall you promoting keeping the 4th commandment as it is written.

manichunter
Jun 21st 2008, 07:25 AM
Do you preach following the letter of any part of the law? I seem to recall you promoting keeping the 4th commandment as it is written.

NO sir. I have never said how I observed Sabbath. I just said I did as well as Sunday. I by no means shared that with you are anybody else. I do have a problem doing that however. I observe just like regular traditional service in most protestant churches with a few acceptions. I observe it from the vantage point of Christ having already come and it is a memorial of that fact. I also observe it in that fact of His second coming which fully fulfills everything pertaining to my redemption (glorification that is) Hence I do not adhere to the shadows that point to the first coming of Christ at all. It is just a day of rest, worship, and fellowship on a day I believe God desired of me.

Naphal
Jun 21st 2008, 08:20 AM
NO sir. I have never said how I observed Sabbath. I just said I did as well as Sunday. I by no means shared that with you are anybody else.

Oh, ok. Must have been someone else then :)

brakelite
Jun 21st 2008, 10:01 AM
You err. He did not say it, he merely quoted scripture. All the old law is a burden to those in the new covenant.

the law entangles with the yoke of bondage- Galatians 5:1

He was quoting scripture and strongly alluding that Sabbath observance was a part of that burden. You know that.
Now you are suggesting that Paul was referring to the Sabbath by calling it a yoke of bondage, when God calls it a delight.
So who is right. You, Ergates, Paul or God? Maybe you and Ergates agree with one another, but it seems you are disagreeing with God. And you are suggesting that Paul disagrees with God, which cannot be seeing as how the scriptures cannot contradict each other.
Paul says elsewhere that the law is holy honourable and good. Yet you claim that here is talking about the same thing when he says it is a yoke of bondage.
Do you not recognise some inconsistency here?

Ta-An
Jun 21st 2008, 04:19 PM
......to those in the new covenant.

New covenant,,,, there is a new covenant :hmm:

So why do I think it is a renewed covenant?? :hmm:

davidandme
Jun 21st 2008, 05:49 PM
In most lagauges of the world the Sabbath day is called very similar to the Hebrew Sabbath. For example in Spanish the Sabbath day is called Sabado. God bless.

FollowTheBanner
Jun 21st 2008, 06:36 PM
Paul told me in Galatians that I am dead to the Law and free in the grace of Jesus Christ. You are free to observe holy days, but as he also taught me in Romans, we now live under the authority of the Spirit working in our consciences, and that some will be lead to observe certain things and some will not.

This verse, to me, speaks of the importance of following your personal convictions: "But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." Romans 14:23.

I just bought my Bible in the last week (new Christian), so I probably don't understand everything, but I thought this was what he was trying to say.

Servant89
Jun 21st 2008, 08:32 PM
There is a difference between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law (2Cor 3:3-13).

In the Bible, 75% of the time that the word "sabbath" appears in the gospels (33/42) is showing Jesus "working" on Sabbath days.

Working is the opposite of resting. Both God the Father and God the Son work on sabbath days (John 5:16-18).

On special occasions (dictated by the spirit of the law), people can do something unlawful or blasphemous and it is not a sin. There are exceptions to the rules as stated in Mat 12:1-6.

To trully keep the sabbath, we have to do all of the points of the law regarding the sabbath, not just the ones they like. For example:

7 Things that the law forbids us to do on Sabbath days:

We can not prepare food (cook or bake, Exo 16:23).
We can not light a fire (Exo 35:3), so forget BBQs, if you want to keep the Sabbath.
We can not buy or sell (Neh 10:31; Neh 13:15-19)
We can not carry a anything heavy (Neh 13:15-19, Jer 17:22-23)
We can not travel (leave or enter a city, Exo 16:29; Neh 13:15-19; Act 1:12)
We can not do any kind of work (Exo 20:10; Mat 12:5; John 5:17-18)
We can not pay anyone to do those things for us (Lev 25:6)
Besides that, we also have to work 6 days a week, not just 5 (Exo 20:9).

When the law says "keep God for the last day of the week", sabbath keepers cannot see that is a prime example of showing God we are not under the law and we are primed to put him first, to serve him and worship him before we serve our eartly bosses, and that we chose to put him first no matter what the law says.

Sabbath keepers cannot understand why Jesus was disappointed with the 9 lepers that faithfully obeyed his commandment in Luke 17:17 and why he was so pleased at the one leper that disobeyed the commandment given in Luke 17:14. They cannot undestand that when it comes to putting God first, it is the right thing to forget about the commandment that says otherwise. They cannot understand that what Jesus expected of the lepers was something that could not be commanded, for commanding it would have ruined the offering. They do not get that.

They cannot understand the significance of that Sunday morning takes over the significance of the 10 commandments. They cannot see that either. It is written:

-- Jesus was declared Son of God with power (Rom 1:4) that Sunday morning.
-- We were justified in His sight (Rom 4:25) that Sunday morning.
-- We are saved by believing what happened that wonderful Sunday morning (Rom 10:9)
-- Our faith was confirmed on that Sunday morning (1Co 15:14-18)
-- We were begotten of God on that Sunday morning (1Pe 1:3)
-- God conquered Satan on that Sunday morning (1Co 2:8)
-- That Sunday morning gave us hope of being resurrected.
-- Jesus conquered death on that day and hour (1Co 15:54).
-- That event changed coward people into bold martyrs for God.
-- That event separated Jesus from all the other religious leaders.
-- That event caused us to be dead to the law, free from the letter of the law, and made us righteous before God.
-- Sunday morning is not made after man.

They cannot understand that unless they are dead to the law, they cannot marry Christ, nor bear fruit as stated in Rom 7:4.

Shalom

Servant89
Jun 21st 2008, 08:38 PM
TIMES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT EACH ONE OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE REITERATED THROUGH DIRECT EXHORTATION OR DIRECT WARNING FOR THE BELIEVER…

Commandment # 1: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Mark 12:29,32; Rom 3:30; 1The 1:9; 1Cor 8:4,6; Gal 3:20; Eph 4:6; 1Tim 2:5; James 2:19. Love the Lord your God (Mat 22:39; Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27; 2Ti 3:4; Luke 11:42).

Commandment # 2: Stay away from idols. Acts 15:20,29; Eph 5:5; 1Cor 5:11; 1Th 1:9; Acts 17:16; Acts 21:25; 1Cor 6:9; 1Pe 4:3-4; 1Cor 10:7,14; 1John 5:21; Rev 2:14,20; Rev 9:20; Rev 21:8; Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 3: Do not take the name of the Lord in vain. Rom 2:24; 1Tim 6:1; Rev 16:9; Rev 13:6; Mat 12:31; Rev 16:9; James 2:7.

Commandment # 4: NOT ONE VERSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

Commadment # 5: Honor your father and mother. Rom 1:30; 2Tim 3:2; Mat 19:19; Luke 18:20; Mat 15:4; Mark 10:19; Eph 6:2; Mark 7:10.

Commandment # 6: Do not kill. Mark 10:19; Mat 19:18; Luke 18:20; Rom 13:9; Rom 1:29; Gal 5:21; 1Tim 1:9; 1Pe 4:15; 1John 3:15; Rev 9:21; Rev 21:8; Rev 22:15.

Commadment # 7: Do not commit adultery. Mar 10:19; Mat 19:18; Luke 16:18; Luke 18:20; Heb 13:4; Mat 5:27; Gal 5:19; Mat 15:19-20; Mark 7:121; Mark 10:11-12; Rom 13:9; 1Cor 6:9.

Commandment # 8: Do not steal. Mat 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; 1Cor 6:9; Rom 13:9; Rom 2:21; 1Cor 6:9-10; Eph 4:28; 1Pe 4:15.

Commandment # 9. Do not lie. Mat 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Rom 13:9; John 8:44; Acts 5:3; Col 3:9; Rev 21:27; Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 10. Do not covet. Eph 5:3,5; Mark 7:22-23; 2Pe 2:14; 1Cor 6:9; Rom 13:9; luke 12:15; 1Cor 5:11; 1Tim 6:10; 1Tim 3:2; Rom 1:29; Rom 7:7; Col 3:5-6.

Commandment # 4 is the exception to this rule. There is not ONE SINGLE TIME in the NT that a DIRECT EXHORTATION OR WARNING tells us we should keep the commandment concerning the Sabbath. Some claim that Luke 23:56 and Heb 4 are examples of direct order to keep commandment # 4 but they are not. Luke 23:56 is a documentation of history just like Gen 21:4. It is not a direct exhortation like we see for the other commandments.

Shalom

Naphal
Jun 21st 2008, 08:44 PM
He was quoting scripture and strongly alluding that Sabbath observance was a part of that burden. You know that.
Now you are suggesting that Paul was referring to the Sabbath by calling it a yoke of bondage, when God calls it a delight.
So who is right. You, Ergates, Paul or God? Maybe you and Ergates agree with one another, but it seems you are disagreeing with God. And you are suggesting that Paul disagrees with God, which cannot be seeing as how the scriptures cannot contradict each other.
Paul says elsewhere that the law is holy honourable and good. Yet you claim that here is talking about the same thing when he says it is a yoke of bondage.
Do you not recognise some inconsistency here?


The entire law itself was considered a delight back during those times but upon reflection in NT times it was considered a burden and a curse to those under it. That cannot be denied while being in agreement with what is said in the NT.

The Sabbath contained many burdens, and many delights. The new Sabbath contains no burdens.

Naphal
Jun 21st 2008, 08:46 PM
New covenant,,,, there is a new covenant :hmm:

So why do I think it is a renewed covenant?? :hmm:

It's part of your belief system but there is a new covenant. Haven't you read these?


Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


How can you read these and wonder if there is a new covenant? Christianity would not even exist without the fact of the new covenant being made and the old covenant being made old and allowed to decay.

Clifton
Jun 21st 2008, 10:32 PM
New covenant,,,, there is a new covenant :hmm:

So why do I think it is a renewed covenant?? :hmm:

Probably because you recognize the different between the Greek words
"καινος" and "νεος", whether you know Greek or not. Thus, you "think" correctly. :thumbsup:

Blessings.

BroRog
Jun 21st 2008, 11:01 PM
TIMES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT EACH ONE OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE REITERATED THROUGH DIRECT EXHORTATION OR DIRECT WARNING FOR THE BELIEVER…

Commandment # 1: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Mark 12:29,32; Rom 3:30; 1The 1:9; 1Cor 8:4,6; Gal 3:20; Eph 4:6; 1Tim 2:5; James 2:19. Love the Lord your God (Mat 22:39; Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27; 2Ti 3:4; Luke 11:42).

Commandment # 2: Stay away from idols. Acts 15:20,29; Eph 5:5; 1Cor 5:11; 1Th 1:9; Acts 17:16; Acts 21:25; 1Cor 6:9; 1Pe 4:3-4; 1Cor 10:7,14; 1John 5:21; Rev 2:14,20; Rev 9:20; Rev 21:8; Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 3: Do not take the name of the Lord in vain. Rom 2:24; 1Tim 6:1; Rev 16:9; Rev 13:6; Mat 12:31; Rev 16:9; James 2:7.

Commandment # 4: NOT ONE VERSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

Commadment # 5: Honor your father and mother. Rom 1:30; 2Tim 3:2; Mat 19:19; Luke 18:20; Mat 15:4; Mark 10:19; Eph 6:2; Mark 7:10.

Commandment # 6: Do not kill. Mark 10:19; Mat 19:18; Luke 18:20; Rom 13:9; Rom 1:29; Gal 5:21; 1Tim 1:9; 1Pe 4:15; 1John 3:15; Rev 9:21; Rev 21:8; Rev 22:15.

Commadment # 7: Do not commit adultery. Mar 10:19; Mat 19:18; Luke 16:18; Luke 18:20; Heb 13:4; Mat 5:27; Gal 5:19; Mat 15:19-20; Mark 7:121; Mark 10:11-12; Rom 13:9; 1Cor 6:9.

Commandment # 8: Do not steal. Mat 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; 1Cor 6:9; Rom 13:9; Rom 2:21; 1Cor 6:9-10; Eph 4:28; 1Pe 4:15.

Commandment # 9. Do not lie. Mat 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Rom 13:9; John 8:44; Acts 5:3; Col 3:9; Rev 21:27; Rev 22:15.

Commandment # 10. Do not covet. Eph 5:3,5; Mark 7:22-23; 2Pe 2:14; 1Cor 6:9; Rom 13:9; luke 12:15; 1Cor 5:11; 1Tim 6:10; 1Tim 3:2; Rom 1:29; Rom 7:7; Col 3:5-6.

Commandment # 4 is the exception to this rule. There is not ONE SINGLE TIME in the NT that a DIRECT EXHORTATION OR WARNING tells us we should keep the commandment concerning the Sabbath. Some claim that Luke 23:56 and Heb 4 are examples of direct order to keep commandment # 4 but they are not. Luke 23:56 is a documentation of history just like Gen 21:4. It is not a direct exhortation like we see for the other commandments.

Shalom


I don't think this argument holds water. Remember what Jesus said to the Pharisees,

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

While it remains his main point that the Pharisees neglected the weightier things of the law, it also remains true that they should have done these without neglecting the others. In other words, Jesus did not dismiss tithing or any other aspect of Moses. This includes keeping the Sabbath Day according to Moses.

So, even though the NT is silent on the issue, this does not mean that Jesus rescinded the law concerning Sabbath observance, especially in light of the fact that he told the Pharisees that they should have done the weightier things of the law without neglecting the rest.

But the Sabbath Day isn't a day of the week. The Sabbath day is our ultimate and final rest from our labors as the author of Hebrews points out. Resting on the Seventh day of the week was Israel's ritual memorial of that final, eternal day. And to KEEP the Sabbath was more than just resting on Saturday. To KEEP the Sabbath is to keep that day in your heart, always longing for it, always mindful of it, and always expecting it.

TexasBeliever
Jun 21st 2008, 11:10 PM
:2cents: God referred to the Sabbath as "a sign of the covenant between you and Me", refering to the covenant He made with Abraham and his descendants. The sabbath rest is a MATERIAL rest from the labors of this world, given to a people whom God said, "I will make of you a great nation and give this land to you (Israel) as an everlasting possession."

When Jesus came He said, "Take and drink the cup, which is My blood, the blood of the the NEW COVENANT, which will be shed for many for the forgiveness of sins." The blood of Christ is a spiritual rest and those in that rest are at peace with God and have eternal life as an everlasting possession.

The spiritual trumps the material.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 22nd 2008, 12:52 AM
I believe the point the OP is making is that from the very beginning, God sanctified the 7th day. Sanctified merely means setting apart. This happened on the very first week of creation.

Genesis 2:2-3
2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

This had nothing to do with the nation of Israel or Abraham or anyone else. Whether we as believers choose to recognize that the 7th day is set apart or not is up to each of us as believers, but it can not be denied that scripture clearly says that from the very first seventh day, God choose to set it apart. Before Noah, before Abraham, before Moses, before the Law. What each of us chooses to do with that information is up to us.

God Bless!

manichunter
Jun 22nd 2008, 02:51 AM
I don't think this argument holds water. Remember what Jesus said to the Pharisees,

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

While it remains his main point that the Pharisees neglected the weightier things of the law, it also remains true that they should have done these without neglecting the others. In other words, Jesus did not dismiss tithing or any other aspect of Moses. This includes keeping the Sabbath Day according to Moses.

So, even though the NT is silent on the issue, this does not mean that Jesus rescinded the law concerning Sabbath observance, especially in light of the fact that he told the Pharisees that they should have done the weightier things of the law without neglecting the rest.

But the Sabbath Day isn't a day of the week. The Sabbath day is our ultimate and final rest from our labors as the author of Hebrews points out. Resting on the Seventh day of the week was Israel's ritual memorial of that final, eternal day. And to KEEP the Sabbath was more than just resting on Saturday. To KEEP the Sabbath is to keep that day in your heart, always longing for it, always mindful of it, and always expecting it.

Why would Jesus have to command people to observe a day that He Himself observed. He said He is the Lord of the Sabbath. Plus Matt 24:20-23 refers to the Sabbath existing post Crucifixion and Resurrection. Why would Jesus refer to a day and bless it with prayer if it is done away with it. He speaks of it in a plural sense as if it is continious and perpectual. He would not endorse a Sabbath by praying that people would not have their rest and worship disturbed if the day was still not sacred to Him. He is hoping that people not be bothered on a Sabbath in a period of time that is after the establishment of the Second Covenant.

Matthew 24: 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:20&sr=1&t=nas) "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:21&sr=1&t=nas) "For then there will be a great R889 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R889) tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:22&sr=1&t=nas) "Unless those days had been cut short, no life F521 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F521) would have been saved; but for the R890 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R890) sake of the elect F522 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F522) those days will be cut short.

I know people will still weasel around this Scripture, but it is there as a witness of the Sabbaths being revered and observed after the instituting of the Second Covenant. I know letting the Holy Spirit convict some of the truth of this Scripture threatens alot of what is believed. However, don't worry, every day can still be esteemed as day of personal worship. Acknowledgement of this truth pontentially opens a whole can of worms as to what else might be true..............

matthew94
Jun 22nd 2008, 03:51 AM
The Ten commandments are not ceremonial. They are the eternal character of God. They were put inside the ark. The eternal laws of God has been from the very beggining. If there are no law then there is no sin. Sin is the trasgression of the Law. Ceremonial laws were a shadow of things to come. They are 2 types of Laws. Have a great day.

The Sabbath WAS indeed a ceremonial law. As long as you view it as a moral law, you are very right to keep it. But I believe if you examined how Jesus talked about the Sabbath, you'd come to agree that He viewed it as a ceremonial law, not a moral law.

In Matthew 12, when Jesus was scolded b/c His disciples picked from the grainfield, He used 2 illustrations from the OT as His defense.

1st Defense...
His first defense was that David's men "ate the consecrated bread," but it was OK since they were doing what was morally right. In other words, it was OK to break the ceremonial law (consecrated bread) for the moral law (resourcing the hungry). Why would Jesus use this as a defense unless His predicament mirrored that of David's men? A parallel existed. A ceremonial law was 2nd fiddle to a moral law.

2nd Defense...
His second defense was that the Priests "desecrate the day and yet are innocent." Once again, it was OK for them to work on the Sabbath, seemingly because, once again, the moral (obedience to God) supersedes the ceremonial (Sabbath observance).

God desires mercy (moral) not sacrifice (ceremonial) when the 2 go head to head. That's why the Sabbath took a back seat to loving people. There was nothing 'moral' about Saturday. It foreshadowed the rest that we find in Christ.

manichunter
Jun 22nd 2008, 03:52 AM
There is a difference between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law (2Cor 3:3-13).

In the Bible, 75% of the time that the word "sabbath" appears in the gospels (33/42) is showing Jesus "working" on Sabbath days.

Working is the opposite of resting. Both God the Father and God the Son work on sabbath days (John 5:16-18).

On special occasions (dictated by the spirit of the law), people can do something unlawful or blasphemous and it is not a sin. There are exceptions to the rules as stated in Mat 12:1-6.

To trully keep the sabbath, we have to do all of the points of the law regarding the sabbath, not just the ones they like. For example:

7 Things that the law forbids us to do on Sabbath days:

We can not prepare food (cook or bake, Exo 16:23).
We can not light a fire (Exo 35:3), so forget BBQs, if you want to keep the Sabbath.
We can not buy or sell (Neh 10:31; Neh 13:15-19)
We can not carry a anything heavy (Neh 13:15-19, Jer 17:22-23)
We can not travel (leave or enter a city, Exo 16:29; Neh 13:15-19; Act 1:12)
We can not do any kind of work (Exo 20:10; Mat 12:5; John 5:17-18)
We can not pay anyone to do those things for us (Lev 25:6)
Besides that, we also have to work 6 days a week, not just 5 (Exo 20:9).

When the law says "keep God for the last day of the week", sabbath keepers cannot see that is a prime example of showing God we are not under the law and we are primed to put him first, to serve him and worship him before we serve our eartly bosses, and that we chose to put him first no matter what the law says.

Sabbath keepers cannot understand why Jesus was disappointed with the 9 lepers that faithfully obeyed his commandment in Luke 17:17 and why he was so pleased at the one leper that disobeyed the commandment given in Luke 17:14. They cannot undestand that when it comes to putting God first, it is the right thing to forget about the commandment that says otherwise. They cannot understand that what Jesus expected of the lepers was something that could not be commanded, for commanding it would have ruined the offering. They do not get that.

They cannot understand the significance of that Sunday morning takes over the significance of the 10 commandments. They cannot see that either. It is written:

-- Jesus was declared Son of God with power (Rom 1:4) that Sunday morning.
-- We were justified in His sight (Rom 4:25) that Sunday morning.
-- We are saved by believing what happened that wonderful Sunday morning (Rom 10:9)
-- Our faith was confirmed on that Sunday morning (1Co 15:14-18)
-- We were begotten of God on that Sunday morning (1Pe 1:3)
-- God conquered Satan on that Sunday morning (1Co 2:8)
-- That Sunday morning gave us hope of being resurrected.
-- Jesus conquered death on that day and hour (1Co 15:54).
-- That event changed coward people into bold martyrs for God.
-- That event separated Jesus from all the other religious leaders.
-- That event caused us to be dead to the law, free from the letter of the law, and made us righteous before God.
-- Sunday morning is not made after man.

They cannot understand that unless they are dead to the law, they cannot marry Christ, nor bear fruit as stated in Rom 7:4.

Shalom



Why can't the Sabbath be elevated to a spiritual status as well like circumcision and torah. Hence its applications might change due the coming of the Messiah and newfound revelations as such leading to His second coming. People are trying to make it look all bad by being rule filled, but I am sure they have rules in their personal churches and an order of service.

A lot of what you say happened on another day called Pentecost that was pasted away but God forgot that He should not be using Holy Days. LOL

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:03 AM
I believe the point the OP is making is that from the very beginning, God sanctified the 7th day. Sanctified merely means setting apart. This happened on the very first week of creation.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't he sanctify the first 7th day? Meaning he doesn't say he rested on any other 7th day. Only that first one does God say he rested. In the NT we see that both Jesus and his Father worked on the 7th day's.

I think people mistake God's resting on the one day for him resting every Saturday. There is no evidence that he did such a thing and no evidence that he commanded anyone else to do it until he gave the law.

manichunter
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:04 AM
The Sabbath WAS indeed a ceremonial law. As long as you view it as a moral law, you are very right to keep it. But I believe if you examined how Jesus talked about the Sabbath, you'd come to agree that He viewed it as a ceremonial law, not a moral law.

In Matthew 12, when Jesus was scolded b/c His disciples picked from the grainfield, He used 2 illustrations from the OT as His defense.

1st Defense...
His first defense was that David's men "ate the consecrated bread," but it was OK since they were doing what was morally right. In other words, it was OK to break the ceremonial law (consecrated bread) for the moral law (resourcing the hungry). Why would Jesus use this as a defense unless His predicament mirrored that of David's men? A parallel existed. A ceremonial law was 2nd fiddle to a moral law.

2nd Defense...
His second defense was that the Priests "desecrate the day and yet are innocent." Once again, it was OK for them to work on the Sabbath, seemingly because, once again, the moral (obedience to God) supersedes the ceremonial (Sabbath observance).

God desires mercy (moral) not sacrifice (ceremonial) when the 2 go head to head. That's why the Sabbath took a back seat to loving people. There was nothing 'moral' about Saturday. It foreshadowed the rest that we find in Christ.

but what of its inclusion with the other nine moral laws. It was not given as torah in leviticus, but as a group of exclusive ten on Mt Sinai. It is moral law......... To excluded from the ten destroys the whole first tablet and we can accuse God of using white eight. LOL

Accepting as a moral law makes us guestion our traditions. But it was given as a set of ten as a sign of the covenant.

matthew94
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:07 AM
but what of its inclusion with the other nine moral laws. It was not given as torah in leviticus, but as a group of exclusive ten on Mt Sinai. It is moral law......... To excluded from the ten destroys the whole first tablet and we can accuse God of using white eight. LOL

Accepting as a moral law makes us guestion our traditions. But it was given as a set of ten as a sign of the covenant.

There is no where in the Bible that says 'the 10' are all moral or all ceremonial or whatnot. This is something people read into the list. There is absolutely no reason why 1 can't be different from the others. Calling the 4th ceremonial does not, at all, destroy the other 9.

Instead of insisting that it 'must' be moral b/c it's 1 of the 10 (even though Scripture makes no such insistence), why not rebut my argument from Jesus' very words? My position has absolutely no problem with the Sabbath's inclusion in the 10 commandments. It was a very important law!

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:09 AM
Why can't the Sabbath be elevated to a spiritual status as well like circumcision and torah.

It has been! That's the entire point. No law requires circumcision, it's spiritual! No law in the NT requires resting on Saturdays! It's a spiritual Sabbath and rest now!

davidandme
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:10 AM
They moderators edited a very good website that explains the issue of the languages of the world becuase they said it is a link to an spesific denomination that they don't like. I guess, I must respect their decision because this website does not belong to me. God bless you always. I hope we are all ready to meet our Lord. God bless.

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:13 AM
but what of its inclusion with the other nine moral laws. It was not given as torah in leviticus, but as a group of exclusive ten on Mt Sinai. It is moral law......... To excluded from the ten destroys the whole first tablet and we can accuse God of using white eight. LOL



The ten commandments aren't all moral laws with other laws ceremonial. The Sabbath was not a moral issue, it was just a commandment from God. And many many laws in Leviticus were moral laws dealing with literal morality. You can't divide the two into such different categories. Sure, the ten were given first and were a special ten but that doesn't mean they are moral and the rest aren't nor does it mean they are better laws or more important.

davidandme
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:16 AM
So if the Sabbath day is not a moral issue. Then you are saying that is ceremonial. How can the Sabbath day be ceremonial if it was created before sin?

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:22 AM
So if the Sabbath day is not a moral issue. Then you are saying that is ceremonial. How can the Sabbath day be ceremonial if it was created before sin?

It doesn't matter when it was created. What matters is what it is. It isn't prohibition of a crime. The commandments say, don't steal, don't lie, don't commit adultery. The Sabbath isn't about don't commit a crime but do rest, do stop working, etc. Yes, there were some don't do's on the Sabbath but not crimes just things God wanted not done on that day to make it different. That's why the 4th commandment is a ceremonial law and not a moral law.

manichunter
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:22 AM
There is no where in the Bible that says 'the 10' are all moral or all ceremonial or whatnot. This is something people read into the list. There is absolutely no reason why 1 can't be different from the others. Calling the 4th ceremonial does not, at all, destroy the other 9.

Instead of insisting that it 'must' be moral b/c it's 1 of the 10 (even though Scripture makes no such insistence), why not rebut my argument from Jesus' very words? My position has absolutely no problem with the Sabbath's inclusion in the 10 commandments. It was a very important law!

It was given as a group of ten commandments on two tablets, that is what Moses came down with the first time.......... This can be read into........... Why did He come down with a group of ten commandments which included the Sabbath. Because they were connected and they were binded together as a covenant.

Ex 34:28 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+34:28&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. De 4:13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+4:13&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -"So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. De 10:4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+10:4&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - "He wrote on the tablets, like the former writing, the Ten Commandments which the LORD had spoken to you on the mountain from the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly; and the LORD gave them to me. (Disciples on the day of Pentecost anyone)

matthew94
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:40 AM
So if the Sabbath day is not a moral issue. Then you are saying that is ceremonial. How can the Sabbath day be ceremonial if it was created before sin?

God isn't allowed to foreshadow the work of Christ before sin entered the world? Didn't Adam himself foreshadow Christ? Doesn't the whole creation week foreshadow the new creation?

matthew94
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:41 AM
It was given as a group of ten commandments on two tablets, that is what Moses came down with the first time.......... This can be read into........... Why did He come down with a group of ten commandments which included the Sabbath. Because they were connected and they were binded together as a covenant.

You're not making a point.

We both agree that the 10 commandments were given as a unit. What you haven't been able to establish is that this implies that they were all moral laws. We all agree that they were connected. We all agree that they were part of a covenant. It doesn't help your point to insist on things we all agree on.

davidandme
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:42 AM
The Sabbath is a commandmant of the true God. You can keep all the laws in the world including the rest of the 9 commandments and don't believe in the true God. With no problems or contradiction. The Sabbath is the only one that identifies the creator of the this world and the universe. And some people still say that this commandmant means nothing! God made the Sabbath for men. (not men only) Not for men of the old testament. And people turn around and say that the Sabbath or any other commandment are done away with! People that say that the 10 Commandmants are not valid are also saying that sin doesn't exist. And if sin doesn't exist then Jesus died for nothing. And we really don't need to be save. Saved from what? Saved from seremonial laws? When a person sees himself in the mirror and sees that he is dirty. What is him supposed to do? Breake the mirror so he can't see the dirt any more?

brakelite
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:43 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't he sanctify the first 7th day? Meaning he doesn't say he rested on any other 7th day. Only that first one does God say he rested. In the NT we see that both Jesus and his Father worked on the 7th day's.

I think people mistake God's resting on the one day for him resting every Saturday. There is no evidence that he did such a thing and no evidence that he commanded anyone else to do it until he gave the law.

Actually Naphal, Israel was required to observe Sabbath at least 3 months before the law was given at Sinai. (In regards to manna.)

In Egypt, Pharoah increased the burdens of Israel in their brickmaking in retaliation for Moses attempt to have them observe Sabbath.

And I have never had this answered...Why would God release Israel from bondage in Egypt...

Exodus 20:1 ¶ And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

...to bring them into His law which you and others now claim to be a bondage?

Tell me, all you who believe the Sabbath to be a burden, a bondage, and a curse.

How will you manage to enjoy the beauty and wonder of the presence of God without distraction in heaven, when here on earth you believe it to be a burden?

How will you cope with serving your Lord and Saviour in eternity without the hindrance of work, if you believe that to do so for 24 hours here is a bondage?

How will you hope to survive living forever focusing without interuption on bringing praise and worship to God in heaven if here on earth you consider it a curse to do so for just one day?

manichunter
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:47 AM
Actually Naphal, Israel was required to observe Sabbath at least 3 months before the law was given at Sinai. (In regards to manna.)

In Egypt, Pharoah increased the burdens of Israel in their brickmaking in retaliation for Moses attempt to have them observe Sabbath.

And I have never had this answered...Why would God release Israel from bondage in Egypt...

Exodus 20:1 ¶ And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

...to bring them into His law which you and others now claim to be a bondage?

Tell me, all you who believe the Sabbath to be a burden, a bondage, and a curse.

How will you manage to enjoy the beauty and wonder of the presence of God without distraction in heaven, when here on earth you believe it to be a burden?

How will you cope with serving your Lord and Saviour in eternity without the hindrance of work, if you believe that to do so for 24 hours here is a bondage?

How will you hope to survive living forever focusing without interuption on bringing praise and worship to God in heaven if here on earth you consider it a curse to do so for just one day?

The real truth to the matter is that even Adam observed Sabbath. He was taught directly by God. Hence Adam, His sons, Noah, and Abraham knew to sacrificial offering system and tithing system, hence God taught mankind torah before Mt Sinai. The torah given to Moses was not new. It was just new to the People of Israel for God changes not.

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:48 AM
The Sabbath is a commandmant of the true God. You can keep all the laws in the world including the rest of the 9 commandments and don't believe in the true God. With no problems or contradiction.

That's not true.


Exodus 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Only the one true God brought Israel out of Egypt. Many religions keep a Sabbath including the Muslims, Wiccans and Buddhists so the 4th commandment isn't that unique.

matthew94
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:49 AM
The Sabbath is a commandmant of the true God.

It 'was' a commandment of the true God. But it was a ceremonial commandment and has been fulfilled.


You can keep all the laws in the world including the rest of the 9 commandments and don't believe in the true God. With no problems or contradiction. Ummm...ok (not sure what you're saying here)


The Sabbath is the only one that identifies the creator of the this world and the universe. And some people still say that this commandmant means nothing!Really? I haven't seen anyone in this thread say the Sabbath means nothing. I've seen many people say it means something very significant (that it foreshadowed the rest that we can access through Christ).



God made the Sabbath for men. (not men only) Not for men of the old testament. And people turn around and say that the Sabbath or any other commandment are done away with! Who in this thread is saying it is ok to murder, steal & lie? Nobody. People are saying that we are under the Law of Christ and that Christ carries with Him the moral law, but fulfills the ceremonial law. The whole Sabbath debate boils down to whether it is a moral or ceremonial law, but nobody is making a good case for the former.


People that say that the 10 Commandmants are not valid are also saying that sin doesn't exist.:) No they're not


And if sin doesn't exist then Jesus died for nothing. And we really don't be to be save. When a person sees himself in the mirror and sees that he is dirty. What is him supposed to do? Breake the mirror so he can't see the dirt any more?This is a very strange argument since it starts with the faulty premise that some are claiming sin doesn't exist.

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:52 AM
Actually Naphal, Israel was required to observe Sabbath at least 3 months before the law was given at Sinai. (In regards to manna.)

Scripture says differently:

Nehemiah 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
Nehemiah 9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:







And I have never had this answered...Why would God release Israel from bondage in Egypt...

Exodus 20:1 ¶ And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

...to bring them into His law which you and others now claim to be a bondage?



It was a better form of bondage but Christ freed us from the bondage of the law.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:53 AM
The real truth to the matter is that even Adam observed Sabbath.

I have asked for this to be documented before. Would you care to or is this just an unproven opinion?

manichunter
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:53 AM
There is no where in the Bible that says 'the 10' are all moral or all ceremonial or whatnot. This is something people read into the list. There is absolutely no reason why 1 can't be different from the others. Calling the 4th ceremonial does not, at all, destroy the other 9.

Instead of insisting that it 'must' be moral b/c it's 1 of the 10 (even though Scripture makes no such insistence), why not rebut my argument from Jesus' very words? My position has absolutely no problem with the Sabbath's inclusion in the 10 commandments. It was a very important law!

Pastor Matthwe94 and Naphal......... bump all that nonsense debate, lets chew some meat............

Forget this elementrary babble concerning a what is ceremonial and moral. Why haven't you or Naphal responded to this post regarding Sabbath.

Jesus said He is the Lord of the Sabbath. Has He stopped being Lord of the Sabbath he gave as a gift to man. Plus Matt 24:20-23 refers to the Sabbath existing post Crucifixion and Resurrection. Why would Jesus refer to a day and bless it with prayer if it is done away with it. He speaks of it in a plural sense as if it is continious and perpectual. He would not endorse a Sabbath by praying that people would not have their rest and worship disturbed if the day was still not sacred to Him. He is hoping that people not be bothered on a Sabbath in a period of time that is after the establishment of the Second Covenant.

Matthew 24: 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:20&sr=1&t=nas) "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:21&sr=1&t=nas) "For then there will be a great R889 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R889) tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:22&sr=1&t=nas) "Unless those days had been cut short, no life F521 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F521) would have been saved; but for the R890 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R890) sake of the elect F522 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F522) those days will be cut short.

I know people will still weasel around this Scripture, but it is there as a witness of the Sabbaths being revered and observed after the instituting of the Second Covenant. I know letting the Holy Spirit convict some of the truth of this Scripture threatens alot of what is believed. However, don't worry, every day can still be esteemed as day of personal worship. Acknowledgement of this truth pontentially opens a whole can of worms as to what else might be true..............

davidandme
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:54 AM
ummm, Your attitude is not apropiate. We are hear to learn from eath other. Good attitude like most people show here is essential. Specially when we are talking about topics that people feel very strongly about. God bless.

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:56 AM
Jesus said He is the Lord of the Sabbath.

Jesus told us he was the Lord of the Sabbath to justify why he wasn't bound to the letter of the Sabbath law.

manichunter
Jun 22nd 2008, 05:06 AM
Jesus told us he was the Lord of the Sabbath to justify why he wasn't bound to the letter of the Sabbath law.

I not bound by the letter of the Sabbath either, and you are not bound by it either. The difference is that I respect it and observe it as perpetual, holy, and living memorial as Jesus Himself endorsed in Matt 24

Matt 24: 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:20&sr=1&t=nas) "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:21&sr=1&t=nas) "For then there will be a great R889 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R889) tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:22&sr=1&t=nas) "Unless those days had been cut short, no life F521 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F521) would have been saved; but for the R890 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R890) sake of the elect F522 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F522) those days will be cut short. 23 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:23&sr=1&t=nas) "Then R891 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R891) if anyone says to you, `Behold, here is the Christ,' F523 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F523) or `There F524 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F524) He is,' do not believe him. 24 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:24&sr=1&t=nas) "For false Christs and false R892 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R892) prophets will arise and will show F525 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F525) great signs R893 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R893) F526 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F526) and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the R894 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R894) elect. F527 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F527) 25 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:25&sr=1&t=nas)''

Why did He still acknowledge this day called Sabbath existence post establishment of the second covenant. Why did He rever and honor it by praying over it and the people who apparently observed it. Why did He talk in a plural fashion concerning Sabbath. He endorsed its existence in prophecy. He would pray for people not to miss worship on this day which did not include any reverance for any other day. If sunday was important, why wasn't it singled out as the Sabbath was. What made the Sabbath so important to Jesus in the future.

matthew94
Jun 22nd 2008, 05:10 AM
Pastor Matthwe94 and Naphal......... bump all that nonsense debate, lets chew some meat............

Nonesense debate? I thought we were discussing Scripture and the important issue of Sabbath observance.


Forget this elementrary babble concerning a what is ceremonial and moral. Why haven't you or Naphal responded to this post regarding Sabbath.

Whether the Sabbath is a ceremonial or moral law is paramount to this discussion. But I will be happy to respond to what you posted below.


Jesus said He is the Lord of the Sabbath. Has He stopped being Lord of the Sabbath he gave as a gift to man.

We all agree that Jesus said He was Lord of the Sabbath. But this quote says nothing about whether the Sabbath was to be observed in the OT pattern forever. The context of the passage shows that Jesus was saying He had the right to supersede the Sabbath. In other words, He (being the moral law-giver) was able to trump the ceremonial Sabbath.


Plus Matt 24:20-23 refers to the Sabbath existing post Crucifixion and Resurrection. Why would Jesus refer to a day and bless it with prayer if it is done away with it. He speaks of it in a plural sense as if it is continious and perpectual. He would not endorse a Sabbath by praying that people would not have their rest and worship disturbed if the day was still not sacred to Him. He is hoping that people not be bothered on a Sabbath in a period of time that is after the establishment of the Second Covenant.

That some people were still keeping the Sabbath after the cross and resurrection is not surprising in the least. This is hardly an endorsement. In fact, if we were to speculate at all about this we'd have to say that Sabbath keepers were the one's that were going to be in danger of God's judgment at the time of the fulfillment of this prophecy!

The passage carries no endorsement of continued Sabbath observance. That being said, people are free to keep the Sabbath. There are benefits to resting from physical labor and there are benefits of assembling together. We're just not bound to do either on the 7th day.

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 05:10 AM
I not bound by the letter of the Sabbath either, and you are not bound by it either. The difference is that I respect it and observe it as perpetual, holy, and living memorial as Jesus Himself endorsed in Matt 24

Jesus says NOTHING of the sort in those verses lol He only mentions the Sabbath and how it will prevent people from leaving to get to safety. He is clearly mocking them IMO. Those who are not bound by the Sabbath can get to safety, which Christ is advising!

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 05:12 AM
That some people were still keeping the Sabbath after the cross and resurrection is not surprising in the least. This is hardly an endorsement. In fact, if we were to speculate at all about this we'd have to say that Sabbath keepers were the one's that were going to be in danger of God's judgment at the time of the fulfillment of this prophecy!

Exactly!


The passage carries no endorsement of continued Sabbath observance. That being said, people are free to keep the Sabbath. There are benefits to resting from physical labor and there are benefits of assembling together. We're just not bound to do either on the 7th day.

Yes, this is true.

manichunter
Jun 22nd 2008, 05:20 AM
Exactly!



Yes, this is true.

Come on, Jesus praying over the Sabbath observed at a future date in a prophetic message after the second covenant has been established does not show endorsement. Man you just do not want to believe that regardless of any information provided from Scripture. The Holy Spirit could tell you Himself, if you asked Him. Me and you will rest on that subject because pride will become a stumble block for both of us...........

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 05:25 AM
Come on, Jesus praying over the Sabbath observed at a future date in a prophetic message after the second covenant has been established does not show endorsement.


Jesus isn't praying...thats only one of the many mistakes you have in your interpretation of this passage...



Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

manichunter
Jun 22nd 2008, 05:33 AM
Nonesense debate? That some people were still keeping the Sabbath after the cross and resurrection is not surprising in the least. This is hardly an endorsement. In fact, if we were to speculate at all about this we'd have to say that Sabbath keepers were the one's that were going to be in danger of God's judgment at the time of the fulfillment of this prophecy!

The passage carries no endorsement of continued Sabbath observance. That being said, people are free to keep the Sabbath. There are benefits to resting from physical labor and there are benefits of assembling together. We're just not bound to do either on the 7th day.

Why speculate at all, isn't that the carnal thing to do. The passage is clear. Jesus is talking about the end times. The end times are post the establishment of the second covenant. The end times is clearly associated with His immediate second coming. Jesus states He is praying over those who might have to flee on Sabbath and during winter. He does not want to people to face the fleeing on a Sabbath or winter if at all possible. He says a Sabbath, which refers to any and all Sabbaths that could possibly happen before His return just like a winter covers all the days within its season. He did not highlight any other day. He singled this one out. He then leads into a message concerning the anti-christ and his lies that even fool the elect if they are not watchful.

Why would He care about any ones welfare on the Sabbath day? The Sabbath is a day He made Holy above any other as a rest day for man so mankind can be free to assemble together for worship and brotherly fellowship.

I was a little sarcastic in my previous text to you on purpose. I wanted to see if you would get personal or spiritual. Forgive me for provoking you, I just wanted to know so I can know how to conduct myself.

manichunter
Jun 22nd 2008, 05:39 AM
Jesus isn't praying...thats only one of the many mistakes you have in your interpretation of this passage...



Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

He showed reverance for the day of Sabbath. Why not pray for any other day concerning your flight.

20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:20&sr=1&t=nas) "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

Jesus said pray that you do not have to flee during winter or a Sabbath. I thought He was our mediator who forever make intercession over us. This was His heart speaking about our welfare on a Sabbath. So, you say he is not keeping His word at the right hand of the father.

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 05:40 AM
I was a little sarcastic in my previous text to you on purpose. I wanted to see if you would get personal or spiritual. Forgive me for provoking you, I just wanted to know so I can know how to conduct myself.

Don't apologize to me for anything even tho you addressed it to me also lol...

Is this a good way to speak to others? Is it a good idea to try to provoke others by being intentionally "rude" (for lack of a better term)?

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 05:42 AM
20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+24:20&sr=1&t=nas) "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

Jesus said pray that you do not have to flee during winter or a Sabbath. I thought He was our mediator who forever make intercession over us. This was His heart speaking about our welfare on a Sabbath. So, you say he is not keeping His word at the right hand of the father.

It's a big difference between saying Jesus was praying about the future Sabbath and Jesus saying you better pray the Antichrist doesn't show up on the Sabbath and you have to escape...because you can't travel on the Sabbath. Jesus is saying if the Antichrist shows up on the Sabbath, then Sabbath keepers are unable to escape from him.

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 05:43 AM
He showed reverance for the day of Sabbath. Why not pray for any other day concerning your flight.

No, you are misreading it. He says you better pray it DOES NOT occur on the Sabbath.

manichunter
Jun 22nd 2008, 05:46 AM
Don't apologize to me for anything even tho you addressed it to me also lol...

Is this a good way to speak to others? Is it a good idea to try to provoke others by being intentionally "rude" (for lack of a better term)?


I will to apologize, it is up to u to do with it as you wish, that is between you and God......... Actually that statement was meant for Matthew94. I cool with everybody.

The way I see it. We met over the web for a purpose even beyond our scope and view of the big picture.
Some come here to learn and others to teach. Some come here to fellowship and others come to hate. I come to exchange and fellowship.

God is the Lord of time and season. I can by no means control the timing and manner of the Holy Spirit. He is just as much Lord as the Father.

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 05:49 AM
I will to apologize, it is up to u to do with it as you wish, that is between you and God......... Actually that statement was meant for Matthew94. I cool with everybody.

Can I ask if English is your first language or not?

I was teasing a bit. You said it to him and I but you only apologized to him so I was joking (a little bit) that you apologized only to him.

manichunter
Jun 22nd 2008, 05:56 AM
No, you are misreading it. He says you better pray it DOES NOT occur on the Sabbath.


No I am reading it right. We are disagreing on the significance of the day to Jesus and why was prayer associated with it. I believe it was significant to Jesus as something to still be distiquite and revered as holy. Prayer was associated with it because a person facing tribulation this day would have their public assembly of worship disrupted.

We have to have our peace about this. My peace is settled.......... You do not want Sabbath as your tradition, okay. I do not want the traditions I believe mankind created in the manner of Easter by human volition, philosophy, racism, and speculation that have infiltrated into Christianity.

manichunter
Jun 22nd 2008, 05:57 AM
Can I ask if English is your first language or not?

I was teasing a bit. You said it to him and I but you only apologized to him so I was joking (a little bit) that you apologized only to him.

Actually I distracted very badly. I am using this to calm myself down. To much happening.......... pray for me that my family be well, brother. We need a miracle and I am still trusting God............

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 05:59 AM
Actually I distracted very badly. I am using this to calm myself down. To much happening.......... pray for me that my family be well, brother. We need a miracle and I am still trusting God............

I don't know what is occurring but I am praying that God will bring peace and safety to you and your family immediately.

manichunter
Jun 22nd 2008, 06:10 AM
I don't know what is occurring but I am praying that God will bring peace and safety to you and your family immediately.


Thanks........... I am in a transition and God is calling me do multiple things without my former securities and my ex-wife is trying to destroy me and my family. She is seeking witchcraft, but it want prosper. I have been under the same weight for seven years, and I believe the end is now............ The devil has thrown everything at me personaly but sickness.......... But I will stand after having nothing left to do, I have stood so far, it would be a waste not to continue.... LOL

I stay as busy as possible destroying the devil's kingdom. I figure the best defense is a better offense. Actually I just started back to posting after ten years because I was going through so much. Now I have had enough. The people of God need power and the kingdom needs to advance. It is not happening as it should. I believe and know that a lot of truth is missing and some lies abide in comfort..................


Now back on topic before Mods get after us

I say it is a Sabbath, now what...........

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 06:16 AM
Thanks........... I am in a transition and God is calling me do multiple things without my former securities and my ex-wife is trying to destroy me and my family. She is seeking witchcraft, but it want prosper. I have been under the same weight for seven years, and I believe the end is now............ The devil has thrown everything at me personaly but sickness.......... But I will stand after having nothing left to do, I have stood so far, it would be a waste not to continue.... LOL

I stay as busy as possible destroying the devil's kingdom. I figure the best defense is a better offense. Actually I just started back to posting after ten years because I was going through so much. Now I have had enough. The people of God need power and the kingdom needs to advance. It is not happening as it should. I believe and know that a lot of truth is missing and some lies abide in comfort..................


Now back on topic before Mods get after us

I say it is a Sabbath, now what...........


I'm sorry but it is hard for me to focus on the subject after hearing about your situation. We may differ on many issues but I always care for the wellbeing of other Christians.

brakelite
Jun 22nd 2008, 06:23 AM
Thanks........... I am in a transition and God is calling me do multiple things without my former securities and my ex-wife is trying to destroy me and my family. She is seeking witchcraft, but it want prosper. I have been under the same weight for seven years, and I believe the end is now............ The devil has thrown everything at me personaly but sickness.......... But I will stand after having nothing left to do, I have stood so far, it would be a waste not to continue.... LOL

I stay as busy as possible destroying the devil's kingdom. I figure the best defense is a better offense. Actually I just started back to posting after ten years because I was going through so much. Now I have had enough. The people of God need power and the kingdom needs to advance. It is not happening as it should. I believe and know that a lot of truth is missing and some lies abide in comfort..................


Now back on topic before Mods get after us

I say it is a Sabbath, now what...........

My prayers are also with you my brother. May God bless you this Sabbath and give you the rest you need in Him. Be strong and of good courage, for the battle is not yours, but God's.

manichunter
Jun 22nd 2008, 06:41 AM
I'm sorry but it is hard for me to focus on the subject after hearing about your situation. We may differ on many issues but I always care for the wellbeing of other Christians.


You are right, but I have this famous saying I get from my Pastor. "But GOD" after confessing everything that could possibly be wrong. I started to type it but the Spirit told me no. However, I do feel you concern and honesty.

I look at humor and ministrying in my afflictions as mocking the devil. He wants to see depressed and sad. In my unsantified soul I am grieved and tired, however, my spirit man I am reinforced my your company, the company my fellow brothers at church, the Holy Spirit and the Scripture. Yes, Holy Spirit even talks to Sabbath observers, go figure........

I will endeavor despite with whatever He calls me to do. My destiny is half known to me. It will present me with a lot of rejection and afflictions. Hence I am on the proving grounds.

Do you think I was born this way, no. I to was born a gentile, a black man to a middle class family, one of the smartest students in my school (like my grammer says so), grandson of a Pastor, son of an evangelist, raised in a church as a black man would say, aspiring writer and song writer, college and seminary, army duty eight years, assistant pastor, and now addicted poster. Man, I tried to sound like Paul.

Do you think I have gone to far in my studies or have not gone far enough to know my God? This is a question the Spirit told me to directly ask you Naphal......

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 06:55 AM
Do you think I have gone to far in my studies or have not gone far enough to know my God? This is a question the Spirit told me to directly ask you Naphal......


No one has gone far enough. I think it's always a life-long endeavor. I think you have gone as far as you can in the direction you have. I think it limits you in ways I know you don't realize. I can only advise to look further than you think you are looking.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 22nd 2008, 11:54 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't he sanctify the first 7th day? Meaning he doesn't say he rested on any other 7th day. Only that first one does God say he rested. In the NT we see that both Jesus and his Father worked on the 7th day's.

I think people mistake God's resting on the one day for him resting every Saturday. There is no evidence that he did such a thing and no evidence that he commanded anyone else to do it until he gave the law.Wow! I wake up and like 40 more posts are here! :lol: He set apart the seventh day during the first week of creation, then later He tells His people to set it apart and remember it because it is a sign of creation. If you do not wish to set the day apart, that's your choice but I choose to remember it as the 4th commandment states. It's not hard...really! Not a burden at all. :dunno: As for God resting every Sabbath day, scripture does not tell us that. In fact, I can't imagine that God was tired and needed rest. I believe He did it as an example. Like if I want to show one of my children how 'they' are to do something, I might do it first as an example, not because it's something I need or want to do. That first Sabbath that He set apart was an example for us, not a necessity for Him. The human body needs physical rest.

God Bless!

davidandme
Jun 22nd 2008, 02:24 PM
Not according to Scripture. He maded it Holy because He stoped, He maded Holy because it was the 7th day and He maded it Holy because it was a signature of His creation. And His dominion over this universe.

Here is Exo 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore [Literally, "for this reason"] the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
It seems strange that we are expected to forget the only commandment which God told us to remember. Or at least we are to forget all of it except the first sentence or two

The Sabbath commandment testifies to the truth of the literal six-day creation. We find creation again as part of God's final warning messages to the world Please read Rev. 14:7

In six days ... rested This is a direct reference to the time when God set aside the seventh day as holy time. God's word is established forever in heaven. He does not change. God bless as we seek for the truths about the word of God.

threebigrocks
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:44 PM
Sabbath is a time of rest. I think we can all agree to that.

That being said, Christ in His days on earth observed the Sabbath because the law was not yet fufilled because He still walked the earth physically.

Matthew 5

17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Matthew 12



6"But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
7"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Christ was greater than the temple, He at that time WAS the temple in the flesh, dwelling among us. It was seeing a picture of the rest to come before their eyes, and He being present with them in the flesh.

Matthew 11



27"All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.


We did not yet have the Spirit given to us, but they had Jesus!

Today, through the Spirit we rest in Him through faith, while waiting to enter that final rest of the 7th day.



Hebrews 4



7He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time justas has been said before,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."
8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.



There is a day of rest to come for us all, and we enter that now, by faith, through the Spirit.

BroRog
Jun 22nd 2008, 05:18 PM
but what of its inclusion with the other nine moral laws. It was not given as torah in leviticus, but as a group of exclusive ten on Mt Sinai. It is moral law......... To excluded from the ten destroys the whole first tablet and we can accuse God of using white eight. LOL

Accepting as a moral law makes us question our traditions. But it was given as a set of ten as a sign of the covenant.

The moral imperative is to remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy. In this, it is important to remember that the Sabbath Day is NOT the seventh day of the week.

To abstain from work on the seventh day of the week is the ritual way those under the Covenant were to remember it. We all have our own ways of memorializing the Sabbath Day.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 22nd 2008, 05:22 PM
The moral imperative is to remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy. In this, it is important to remember that the Sabbath Day is NOT the seventh day of the week.

To abstain from work on the seventh day of the week is the ritual way those under the Covenant were to remember it. We all have our own ways of memorializing the Sabbath Day.I believe the point of the OP is that Genesis 2:3 clearly states that God sanctified (set apart) the 'day' long before 'the Covenant', long before Abraham, Isaac, and Israel. The commandment may not have come until Sinai but it was sanctified long before that. There was no commandment not to murder either until Sinai yet Cain knew it was wrong to murder his brother. Just because the command was not there does not imply that His people did not know what He expected of them.

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 07:46 PM
That first Sabbath that He set apart was an example for us, not a necessity for Him.

If that is true, then why didn't God tell anyone about it until Sinai?

And, is there any evidence that God in the OT rested on any other weekly Sabbath day?

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 07:49 PM
I believe the point of the OP is that Genesis 2:3 clearly states that God sanctified (set apart) the 'day' long before 'the Covenant', long before Abraham, Isaac, and Israel.

In genesis, did God sanctify that one particular day or did he sanctify all Saturdays?

StevenC
Jun 22nd 2008, 07:51 PM
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God came to the end of all his work; and on the seventh day he took his rest from all the work which he had done.
Gen 2:3 And God gave his blessing to the seventh day and made it holy: because on that day he took his rest from all the work which he had made and done.
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heaven and the earth when they were made.

My question is why did Man take this day and make it a working day.. Opening stores, why did we choose it from a Holy day??:pray:


There are some Christians who keep the Sabbath and others that do not. Are you concerned with your own belief or that others might believe differently?

You see although the Sabbath has been holy since the 7th day of creation, it is a matter of great debate concerning God's commandments on the matter.

From a Sabbath keeping perspective we might say, open stores is just rebellion against God, but then again, the Sabbath law was never conveyed to Gentiles through any covenant. Acts 15 makes no mention of it. New Testament scriptures seem to support both Sabbath keeping for Israelites and non-Sabbath keeping for Gentiles.

That said, I believe there is some support for Sabbath keeping as a matter of faith, but I have a problem with those who claim their understanding or faith is superior because they keep the Sabbath. (See also: The Yeast of the Pharisees)

One thing we have to keep in mind is that it is God whom we should be trying to please, not each other. So with that I will stop talking before I say something that starts a fire.

-Steven

StevenC
Jun 22nd 2008, 08:21 PM
I believe the point of the OP is that Genesis 2:3 clearly states that God sanctified (set apart) the 'day' long before 'the Covenant', long before Abraham, Isaac, and Israel. The commandment may not have come until Sinai but it was sanctified long before that. There was no commandment not to murder either until Sinai yet Cain knew it was wrong to murder his brother. Just because the command was not there does not imply that His people did not know what He expected of them.

Both arguments should be considered.. if the day of the Sabbath was the day that God himself sanctified, that is, one single day, then the observance of the Sabbath by Israel is a rememberence of that day... What do you suppose that means in regards to the OP statement working on the sabbath?

Perhaps it means that regardless of whether one follows the regulations as outlined in the Torah or simply takes a day off there seems to be a disconnect in that we have forgotten the meaning of this day.

Could it be then that people work on the Sabbath because the meaning of the Sabbath has become lost?

Is it now nothing more than a tradition that some observe out of superstition or fear? Or that others have abandoned all together? Is this part of the yeast of the pharisees. Tradition without knowledge.... knowledge without understanding... understanding without patience.

-Steven

brakelite
Jun 22nd 2008, 09:42 PM
I'd like to refer back to an occasion before Sinai (mentioned previously in another post) when Moses, under instruction from God, told Israel that they must collect twice as much manna on the 6th day, because the 7th was the Sabbath. On the Sabbath they could expect no manna, thus they were not to go looking for it. God was thus bleesing them by working several miracles that they may enjoy the rest of the Sabbath without having to gather or prepare food on the Sabbath. Thus they may focus all their attention toward Him without distraction. This was not, as so many suggest, a burden, or curse. It was a blessing. God provided twice as much on the 6th day and ensured that the remaining would not rot as any remaining did on the other days.

However, when some went to gather some manna on the 7th day, and found none, they were firmly rebuked. If you read Exodus 16 carefully, you will note that this took place at peast one month before Israel even reached the Sinai plain that was before the mountain.
Yet God enquired, after their disobedience in this matter, "How long refuse ye to keep My laws?"

This proves, without a shadow of doubt, that the Sabbath commandment was a part of God's laws before they were written down at Sinai.

matthew94
Jun 22nd 2008, 09:47 PM
Whether the Sabbath law existed from the time of Adam or Moses is irrelevant in my opinion. The key issue is not when the law was given, but what kind of law it was. If there is something morally pure about Saturday and it is a moral law, then we should still keep the Sabbath law. If, however, it was meant to foreshadow the work of Christ and it was a ceremonial law, then the way to keep it is by resting from works based righteousness and experiencing the rest of knowing Christ (a perpetual Sabbath, so to speak).

Studyin'2Show
Jun 22nd 2008, 10:00 PM
Both arguments should be considered.. if the day of the Sabbath was the day that God himself sanctified, that is, one single day, then the observance of the Sabbath by Israel is a rememberence of that day... What do you suppose that means in regards to the OP statement working on the sabbath?

Is it now nothing more than a tradition that some observe out of superstition or fear? Or that others have abandoned all together? Is this part of the yeast of the pharisees. Tradition without knowledge.... knowledge without understanding... understanding without patience.I guess, for me, I don't see it as an either or issue. I see absolutely no conflict in remembering the Sabbath AND being aware that we find perfect rest in Messiah.

As for the OP's question of WHY people work, well I would have to point out that there have always been those who have worked on the Sabbath. Why people work on Sabbath would not really be the question but why people don't. Tradition without knowledge? Superstition or fear? I'm sure that is the case for some. I can't speak for those people, however, because for me there is no superstition or fear or tradition. I'm a black woman with absolutely no family history of Sabbath keeping. Why I remember the Sabbath is actually really simple....because God said remember. He calls it HIS Sabbath; not the Sabbath of the Jews. I want to be a part of anything that is His, because I am His. A bit more than two years ago while reading Leviticus 23, God spoke to me. It wasn't a warning or some stern command or anything like that. It was more like, 'These are My Feasts and you have the opportunity to share them with Me'. So, my family and I began to celebrate and enjoy these days but not as the burdens many see them as, but as a blessing. I am not rabbinical at all but I rather have been led by the Spirit as to how to biblically honor the Feasts of the LORD of which the Sabbath is one. I will continue to follow the Spirit's leading as I would encourage each believer to do.

God Bless!

Naphal
Jun 22nd 2008, 10:23 PM
I'd like to refer back to an occasion before Sinai (mentioned previously in another post) when Moses, under instruction from God, told Israel that they must collect twice as much manna on the 6th day, because the 7th was the Sabbath. On the Sabbath they could expect no manna, thus they were not to go looking for it. God was thus bleesing them by working several miracles that they may enjoy the rest of the Sabbath without having to gather or prepare food on the Sabbath. Thus they may focus all their attention toward Him without distraction. This was not, as so many suggest, a burden, or curse. It was a blessing. God provided twice as much on the 6th day and ensured that the remaining would not rot as any remaining did on the other days.

However, when some went to gather some manna on the 7th day, and found none, they were firmly rebuked. If you read Exodus 16 carefully, you will note that this took place at peast one month before Israel even reached the Sinai plain that was before the mountain.
Yet God enquired, after their disobedience in this matter, "How long refuse ye to keep My laws?"

This proves, without a shadow of doubt, that the Sabbath commandment was a part of God's laws before they were written down at Sinai.



Nehemiah 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
Nehemiah 9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:


So which is it? Was the Holy Sabbath made known to them at Sinai or 15 days before? There must be a mistake being made since this scripture clearly states when it was made known to them.



Yet God enquired, after their disobedience in this matter, "How long refuse ye to keep My laws?"

Actually this was only addressed to Moses, not to the others.


Exodus 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

davidandme
Jun 23rd 2008, 12:00 AM
Fulfil, does not mean to stop. This is a very common mistake. This mistake is made for many reasons. One of thouse reasons is that people failed to see what this word means in the original language that it was written. People cling to one or two bible verses and make a whole doctrine out of it. Lets see what does the word fulfil really means when in the language that was written:

to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full

a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally

1) I abound, I am liberally supplied

2) to render full, i.e. to complete

a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim

b) to consummate: a number

1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect

2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)

c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise

1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute

2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish

3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment.

These are the actual translation taken from that verse from the Greek.

Actually Jesus made the Law even harder to keep. Because He went beyond the action. He also looked at the motives of thouse actions.

Naphal
Jun 23rd 2008, 12:05 AM
Fulfil, does not mean to stop.

Sure it does. It means to finish and complete something. When you finish painting your house do you just continue painting it even though it's already finished?

davidandme
Jun 23rd 2008, 12:24 AM
I just showed everybody the actual translations from the Greek. But I know that some people will fight for what they believe. No matter how much evidence is put forward. Please read Mat 23:32

Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

You might ask. What does this verse has to do with what we are talking about? Well the word fill and up are both the same word as fulfil in the Greek language. Having a book or a software that can help you with these matters is very important to understand the Bible.

Vhayes
Jun 23rd 2008, 12:28 AM
Fulfil, does not mean to stop. This is a very common mistake. This mistake is made for many reasons. One of thouse reasons is that people failed to see what this word means in the original language that it was written. People cling to one or two bible verses and make a whole doctrine out of it. Lets see what does the word fulfil really means when in the language that was written:

to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full

a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally

1) I abound, I am liberally supplied

2) to render full, i.e. to complete

a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim

b) to consummate: a number

1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect

2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)

c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise

1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute

2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish

3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment.

These are the actual translation taken from that verse from the Greek.

Actually Jesus made the Law even harder to keep. Because He went beyond the action. He also looked at the motives of thouse actions.
If something is filled to full, you cannot add more to it. It is completed.

Carry through to the "end" - hmmmmmm

If you fulfill your mortgage obligation at the bank will you contnue to pay the mortgage even though the mortgage covenant has been completed?

Naphal
Jun 23rd 2008, 12:31 AM
I just showed everybody the actual translations from the Greek.

Yes you did and thank you. Did you happen to read it? It doesn't agree with your premise.

threebigrocks
Jun 23rd 2008, 12:38 AM
I just showed everybody the actual translations from the Greek. But I know that some people will fight for what they believe. No matter how much evidence is put forward. Please read Mat 23:32

Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

You might ask. What does this verse has to do with what we are talking about? Well the word fill and up are both the same word as fulfil in the Greek language. Having a book or a software that can help you with these matters is very important to understand the Bible.

You do make some good points, but the only true knowledge we can rest in is that which is revealed by the Spirit. I've found books and this and that are not nearly as helpful as keeping my nose in prayer and scripture. ;)

threebigrocks
Jun 23rd 2008, 12:38 AM
If something is filled to full, you cannot add more to it. It is completed.

Carry through to the "end" - hmmmmmm

If you fulfill your mortgage obligation at the bank will you contnue to pay the mortgage even though the mortgage covenant has been completed?

And if you pay off your mortgage, does your house cease to exist? ;) Of course not! It's more enjoyable because you are free from the bondsman. You are no longer a slave to the payment or the bank. Same with the law, it's there, it's paid in full, and still serves a purpose even though we are free from it's hold. We've got grace!

Vhayes
Jun 23rd 2008, 12:41 AM
And if you pay off your mortgage, does your house cease to exist? ;) Of course not! It's more enjoyable because you are free from the bondsman.
Nice analogy - thanks, Three!
V

Naphal
Jun 23rd 2008, 12:45 AM
And if you pay off your mortgage, does your house cease to exist? ;) Of course not! It's more enjoyable because you are free from the bondsman. You are no longer a slave to the payment or the bank. Same with the law, it's there, it's paid in full, and still serves a purpose even though we are free from it's hold. We've got grace!


Yes but the law was part of the old covenant and that covenant was taken away and replaced so the analogy would be more accurate that a first house was paid off and then sold and a new house given. It's a new house, a better house, it was paid for by someone else, and it isn't built like the old house, it has no faults like the old house did...etc etc.

threebigrocks
Jun 23rd 2008, 12:49 AM
Yes but the law was part of the old covenant and that covenant was taken away and replaced so the analogy would be more accurate that a first house was paid off and then sold and a new house given. It's a new house, a better house, it was paid for by someone else, and it isn't built like the old house, it has no faults like the old house did...etc etc.

Even if you move - so long as you didn't sell out to the state to run a new freeway through or something - does that house cease to exist or stop having character flaws? Even with a fresh coat of paint, it's still the old house.

And to ponder - in real estate it's not the house per se that's sold. It's the land (shall we say foundation!) it's built upon.

Naphal
Jun 23rd 2008, 12:52 AM
Even if you move - so long as you didn't sell out to the state to run a new freeway through or something - does that house cease to exist or stop having character flaws? Even with a fresh coat of paint, it's still the old house.

And to ponder - in real estate it's not the house per se that's sold. It's the land (shall we say foundation!) it's built upon.

But we have to try to factor in that the original covenant was broken by Israel through Adultery to false gods. It doesn't exist anymore other than historically. Perhaps it is better to say that the first house was dismantled and a newer, better house was built in it's place. Only the original building plans of the first home remain.

threebigrocks
Jun 23rd 2008, 12:59 AM
But we have to try to factor in that the original covenant was broken by Israel through Adultery to false gods. It doesn't exist anymore other than historically. Perhaps it is better to say that the first house was dismantled and a newer, better house was built in it's place. Only the original building plans of the first home remain.

Law still exists and will not fade until all authority given to Christ is completed. It just has a purpose for the new owners of the house!

As for me and my house (tent, if you will) we will serve the Lord.

Naphal
Jun 23rd 2008, 01:01 AM
Law still exists and will not fade until all authority given to Christ is completed. It just has a purpose for the new owners of the house!

As for me and my house (tent, if you will) we will serve the Lord.

Yes law still exists, just not the Sinai law. That's what I was talking about. All covenants contain laws. The new cov. is no exception. When the bible says to be dead to the law it's speaking of the Sinai law, not the NT law.

threebigrocks
Jun 23rd 2008, 01:07 AM
Yes law still exists, just not the Sinai law. That's what I was talking about. All covenants contain laws. The new cov. is no exception. When the bible says to be dead to the law it's speaking of the Sinai law, not the NT law.

Yet do you see the benefit of knowing that there are 613 Levitical laws, that man cannot follow them perfectly and that only Christ could? 613 things to do - and we are told that we cannot in any way shape or form keep them all so that God is pleased with them.

So then what? Christ!

They serve a purpose, a mighty one at that. It shows the value of ourselves before God without Christ.

davidandme
Jun 23rd 2008, 01:19 AM
Yes, that is one of the translations. But what is the end? What laws is He talking about? Why do you have to translate it to come out they way you want to?

threebigrocks
Jun 23rd 2008, 01:31 AM
Yes, that is one of the translations. But what is the end? What laws is He talking about? Why do you have to translate it to come out they way you want to?

Translations? :hmm:

The end is the end of the world. Christ puts all things under Him, then turns the kingdom over to the Father. That is when things are complete, and it begins an eternity with satan eternally destroyed and locked up.

With no sin, with it defeated at that point actually, there is no need to expose what is not there. All who are saved are in eternity with God and all who were not are locked up for eternity.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 23rd 2008, 02:41 AM
If something is filled to full, you cannot add more to it. It is completed.

Carry through to the "end" - hmmmmmm

If you fulfill your mortgage obligation at the bank will you contnue to pay the mortgage even though the mortgage covenant has been completed?Absolutely! I do not remember the Sabbath to somehow ADD anything to what Messiah has done. There are no points that I can add to my account. Yeshua has paid my debt in full. As to the mortgage analogy, no I would not continue to pay the mortgage that has been paid. However, I can continue to send money to the bank. Why, you ask? Because I like the bank so I keep a savings account there. See, I'm still sending money to the bank but NOT out of obligation but by choice. Big difference! ;)

God Bless!

brakelite
Jun 23rd 2008, 07:07 AM
Nehemiah 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
Nehemiah 9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:


So which is it? Was the Holy Sabbath made known to them at Sinai or 15 days before? There must be a mistake being made since this scripture clearly states when it was made known to them.[/B]
You can read the scripture as well as I. You tell me. Was Moses wrong or was Nehemiah wrong, or maybe you are simply trying to read too much into things to suit your argument?



[QUOTE=Naphal;1681446]
Actually this was only addressed to Moses, not to the others.


Exodus 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

Now you're just getting quite pedantic and hair splitting. Are you suggesting that Moses went out to collect manna on the Sabbath and God was rebuking him? Come on.

Naphal
Jun 23rd 2008, 07:14 AM
You can read the scripture as well as I. You tell me. Was Moses wrong or was Nehemiah wrong, or maybe you are simply trying to read too much into things to suit your argument?

I think it's clear they didn't fully understand the Sabbath until Sinai so whatever took place 15 days before wasn't a full knowledge of it. Thats the only way to harmonize the two.




Now you're just getting quite pedantic and hair splitting. Are you suggesting that Moses went out to collect manna on the Sabbath and God was rebuking him? Come on.

It's an important enough detail. It's important that only Moses was spoken to by God about the failure on the Sabbath. It was his fault. Now, why was it his fault? Perhaps he failed to explain the Sabbath to them properly which is why we are told they first know of the Sabbath at Sinai.

LaidDownHisLIfe
Jun 24th 2008, 04:27 PM
i love the way you communicate.
keep it up!

manichunter
Jun 24th 2008, 06:05 PM
It's an important enough detail. It's important that only Moses was spoken to by God about the failure on the Sabbath. It was his fault. Now, why was it his fault? Perhaps he failed to explain the Sabbath to them properly which is why we are told they first know of the Sabbath at Sinai.

What about being held to higher standard? To be held accountable to not just adultery, but the thoughts of adultery. To hate someone so much that it is considered murder.......

Naphal
Jun 24th 2008, 09:53 PM
What about being held to higher standard? To be held accountable to not just adultery, but the thoughts of adultery. To hate someone so much that it is considered murder.......

That's in the NT but were talking about a completely different OT subject.

The concept of the Saturday Sabbath being a commanded law from the beginning with Adam isn't scriptural. One scripture suggests the Sabbath was known to Israel 15 days before Sinai, another says they only knew of it at Sinai...not a huge difference but it was interesting to discuss. Either way, it doesn't appear until long after the escape from Egypt. The Sabbath appears to have been a one time, special occurrence on the first 7th day and only for God. There is nothing to suggest God ever rested on another 7th day, nor that he told anyone about it until Moses.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 24th 2008, 10:19 PM
The concept of the Saturday Sabbath being a commanded law from the beginning with Adam isn't scriptural. One scripture suggests the Sabbath was known to Israel 15 days before Sinai, another says they only knew of it at Sinai...not a huge difference but it was interesting to discuss. Either way, it doesn't appear until long after the escape from Egypt. The Sabbath appears to have been a one time, special occurrence on the first 7th day and only for God. There is nothing to suggest God ever rested on another 7th day, nor that he told anyone about it until Moses.I think you mention an interesting point. However, the same can be said about murdering or stealing or committing adultery. Yet, it is clear that Joseph knew that he should not sleep with his master's wife because he said he could not sin against God by doing it. It is also clear that Moses was aware that he had murdered, well before ANY command NOT to murder was given. Therefore, because we do not see a specific reference to keeping Sabbath does not mean it wasn't kept long before Sinai. At Sinai the commands were given regarding a whole set of sins that the people of God evidently already had knowledge of as evidenced by Joseph (adultery) and Moses (murder), why would it be unreasonable to believe it was similar with the Sabbath? :hmm: The command clearly says to remember, as if something had been and/or would be forgotten.

God Bless!

Servant89
Jun 24th 2008, 11:27 PM
<<Therefore, because we do not see a specific reference to keeping Sabbath does not mean it wasn't kept long before Sinai. >>

The Greek word for that is "Baloney". The Bible is crystal clear on that subject.

First, Nehemiah stated that it was through Moses that the Sabbath was given as a commandment to mankind.

Neh 9:13 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=16&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
Neh 9:14 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=16&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

Second, Hebrews chapters 3 and 4 clearly state that same thing again, saying that those to whom first was preached the idea of the seventh day were the Israelites in the desert (through Moses).

HEb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Shalom

davidandme
Jun 25th 2008, 12:16 AM
excellent point!

Studyin'2Show
Jun 25th 2008, 12:19 AM
I think you need to check your Greek lexicon S89! :D You hit the nail on the head when you pointed out that the COMMANDMENT for the Sabbath was given at Sinai. As was the commandment for murder and adultery and the like. Yet long before the commandment came His people knew it was not right to murder and commit adultery. I believe your 'bologna' detector has proven my point. ;)

God Bless!

Studyin'2Show
Jun 25th 2008, 12:21 AM
excellent point!Excellent point for who David? :confused You may want to quote the poster or mention the name of the poster to whom you wish to reply. It will help those following along with the dialog. :D

davidandme
Jun 25th 2008, 12:43 AM
You are right. But I don't know how to quote people's writtings yet. Sorry about that. It would be great if you or anybody could teach me. My reponce was to your comment. Not the quote on your comment. God bless.

threebigrocks
Jun 25th 2008, 12:49 AM
Quote button, bottom right of every post. ;)

ShirleyFord
Jun 25th 2008, 02:50 AM
The concept of the Saturday Sabbath being a commanded law from the beginning with Adam isn't scriptural.

I agree. Jesus Himself said that His Father worked on the sabbath day:

John 5

16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

There is no recod in the Bible that God rested any other sabbath other than that one time on the 7th day of the creation week.


One scripture suggests the Sabbath was known to Israel 15 days before Sinai, another says they only knew of it at Sinai...not a huge difference but it was interesting to discuss. Either way, it doesn't appear until long after the escape from Egypt. The Sabbath appears to have been a one time, special occurrence on the first 7th day and only for God. There is nothing to suggest God ever rested on another 7th day, nor that he told anyone about it until Moses.


Shirley

davidandme
Jun 25th 2008, 03:30 AM
Quote button, bottom right of every post. ;)
Yes, thank you. But I can only quote the whole post. Not just a sentence or a phrase like some people can. God bless.

Naphal
Jun 25th 2008, 06:49 AM
I think you mention an interesting point. However, the same can be said about murdering or stealing or committing adultery. Yet, it is clear that Joseph knew that he should not sleep with his master's wife because he said he could not sin against God by doing it. It is also clear that Moses was aware that he had murdered, well before ANY command NOT to murder was given.


This certainly might prove some type of law was in place that we aren't told about but there is no such evidence of anyone knowing about the Sabbath, resting on this same Sabbath or that they knew of that first Sabbath or that God ever rested on another Sabbath.



Therefore, because we do not see a specific reference to keeping Sabbath does not mean it wasn't kept long before Sinai.

Actually it is the lack of mentioning of it that means we cannot assume the Sabbath was practiced by anyone. If it was, it isn't written about therefore we cannot assume it was. Adultery and murder appears to have some examples for us pre-law but not the Sabbath. I mention this only because many claim Adam kept the Sabbath lol...I mean, come on...there isn't a word written about that but they preach it as if it is as real as Jesus on the cross! (and just as important I infer...)



At Sinai the commands were given regarding a whole set of sins that the people of God evidently already had knowledge of as evidenced by Joseph (adultery) and Moses (murder), why would it be unreasonable to believe it was similar with the Sabbath? :hmm:

Yes because of the lack of any evidence unlike the other examples.





The command clearly says to remember, as if something had been and/or would be forgotten.

That's faulty thinking IMO. Example, I used to work for my Grandfather. Remember this.

....now, does that mean you knew I worked for him before I just told you? Of course not. They are told to remember something from that point on, not that he was reminding them of something once known.

Naphal
Jun 25th 2008, 06:53 AM
Yes, thank you. But I can only quote the whole post. Not just a sentence or a phrase like some people can. God bless.


You just need to pick out what you want to quote and then type [quote] in front of it and /quote] after it except make sure the [ bracket is in front like the first one. I couldnt type it or it would do a quote.. One turns on the quote function and the other turns it off. You need to learn how to highlight text but that is harder to teach online. Typing it manually isn't too bad.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 25th 2008, 11:07 AM
That's faulty thinking IMO. Example, I used to work for my Grandfather. Remember this.

....now, does that mean you knew I worked for him before I just told you? Of course not. They are told to remember something from that point on, not that he was reminding them of something once known.Though the way you worded that statement is a bit awkward, what it clearly shows, Naphal, is that you do not want the hearer to forget that point. Even if you believe there was never a Sabbath before then, the use of the word 'remember' implies that the Father knew it would eventually be forgotten. Why? Why is this the one commandment that is forgotten? Simply remembering the Sabbath day is not a difficult thing.

However, most times when the word 'remember' is used, there is some previous knowledge. Example, remember to be there at noon. This would not be the first mention of going wherever 'there' is. There is obviously previous knowledge of it. Just as before the Law was given, God told them through Moses not to gather manna on the Sabbath. They knew what was meant; it was not a foreign term to them. Just as Noah was told to take seven sets of clean animals and one set of unclean animals, long before the regulations were given to Moses regarding clean and unclean animals. Yet, Noah understood. ;)

God Bless!

Naphal
Jun 25th 2008, 11:23 AM
Though the way you worded that statement is a bit awkward, what it clearly shows, Naphal, is that you do not want the hearer to forget that point.

Sure. It's no different than when scripture repeats something more than once.



Even if you believe there was never a Sabbath before then, the use of the word 'remember' implies that the Father knew it would eventually be forgotten.

We know there was a Sabbath before that, but the issue is did anyone else know it? Scripture doesn't confirm that God told anyone about the first 7th day Sabbath (possibly the only one for a very long time) until Genesis was written.

But, to tell someone to remember doesn't necessarily mean that same someone will forget. The implication is that the church would forget it. That's not so. No one has forgotten the Sabbath, not the original Sabbath day nor the non-day Sabbath. The very fact that the Sabbath has been disagreed upon from the beginning of the church means it was never forgotten but how it has been remember and honored has varied.




However, most times when the word 'remember' is used, there is some previous knowledge.

It is not until the 5th time the Sabbath is mentioned that the word "remember" is attached. For 4 times God did not say to remember. There is no hint at all that "remember the Sabbath" has anything to do with the supposed knowledge of the Sabbath before Moses spoke it to Israel.






Example, remember to be there at noon. This would not be the first mention of going wherever 'there' is. There is obviously previous knowledge of it. Just as before the Law was given, God told them through Moses not to gather manna on the Sabbath. They knew what was meant; it was not a foreign term to them.

I think it clearly was new. So new that they really didn't even have real knowledge of it since scripture says their knowledge of the Sabbath came at Sinai.

ShirleyFord
Jun 25th 2008, 12:06 PM
Though the way you worded that statement is a bit awkward, what it clearly shows, Naphal, is that you do not want the hearer to forget that point. Even if you believe there was never a Sabbath before then, the use of the word 'remember' implies that the Father knew it would eventually be forgotten. Why? Why is this the one commandment that is forgotten? Simply remembering the Sabbath day is not a difficult thing.

However, most times when the word 'remember' is used, there is some previous knowledge. Example, remember to be there at noon. This would not be the first mention of going wherever 'there' is. There is obviously previous knowledge of it. Just as before the Law was given, God told them through Moses not to gather manna on the Sabbath. They knew what was meant; it was not a foreign term to them. Just as Noah was told to take seven sets of clean animals and one set of unclean animals, long before the regulations were given to Moses regarding clean and unclean animals. Yet, Noah understood. ;)

God Bless!

Hi S2S,

This is what God told the children of Israel to remember when He commanded them to remember the sabbath day to keep it holy:


Deuteronomy 5

13 Six days thou shalt labor, and do all thy work:

14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

davidandme
Jun 25th 2008, 01:18 PM
Here are definitions of the Hebrew word remember.

to remember, recall, call to mind

a) (Qal) to remember, recall

b) (Niphal) to be brought to remembrance, be remembered, be thought of, be brought to mind

c) (Hiphil)

1) to cause to remember, remind

2) to cause to be remembered, keep in remembrance

3) to mention

4) to record

5) to make a memorial, make remembrance.

Here are examples where the word remember have been used in the Hebrew text. Look at the context. They are all talking about remembering something from the past. The Hebrew word # is 02142. God bless.

And God 0430 remembered 02142 Noah 05146, and every living thing 02416, and all the cattle 0929 that [was] with him in the ark 08392: and God 0430 made 05674 00 a wind 07307 to pass 05674 over 05921 the earth 0776, and the waters 04325 asswaged 07918 ;
Gen 9:15 And I will remember 02142 my covenant 01285, which [is] between me and you and every living 02416 creature 05315 of all flesh 01320; and the waters 04325 shall no more 05750 become a flood 03999 to destroy 07843 all flesh 01320.
Gen 9:16 And the bow 07198 shall be in the cloud 06051; and I will look upon it 07200 , that I may remember 02142 the everlasting 05769 covenant 01285 between 0996 God 0430 and 0996 every living 02416 creature 05315 of all flesh 01320 that [is] upon the earth 0776.
Gen 19:29 And it came to pass, when God 0430 destroyed 07843 the cities 05892 of the plain 03603, that God 0430 remembered 02142 Abraham 085, and sent 07971 Lot 03876 out of the midst 08432 of the overthrow 02018, when he overthrew 02015 the cities 05892 in the which 02004 Lot 03876 dwelt 03427 .
Gen 30:22 And God 0430 remembered 02142 Rachel 07354, and God 0430 hearkened 08085 to her, and opened 06605 her womb 07358.
Gen 40:14 But think 02142 on me when it shall be well 03190 with thee, and shew 06213 kindness 02617, I pray thee, unto me, and make mention 02142 of me unto Pharaoh 06547, and bring me 03318 out of this house 01004:
Gen 40:23 Yet did not the chief 08269 butler 08248 remember 02142 Joseph 03130, but forgat 07911 him.
Gen 41:9 Then spake 01696 the chief 08269 butler 08248 unto Pharaoh 06547, saying 0559 , I do remember 02142 my faults 02399 this day 03117:
Gen 42:9 And Joseph 03130 remembered 02142 the dreams 02472 which he dreamed 02492 of them, and said 0559 unto them, Ye [are] spies 07270 ; to see 07200 the nakedness 06172 of the land 0776 ye are come 0935 .
Exd 2:24 And God 0430 heard 08085 their groaning 05009, and God 0430 remembered 02142 his covenant 01285 with Abraham 085, with Isaac 03327, and with Jacob 03290.
Exd 6:5 And I have also heard 08085 the groaning 05009 of the children 01121 of Israel 03478, whom 0834 the Egyptians 04714 keep in bondage 05647 ; and I have remembered 02142 my covenant 01285.
Exd 13:3 And Moses 04872 said 0559 unto the people 05971, Remember 02142 this 02088 day 03117, in which ye came out 03318 from Egypt 04714, out of the house 01004 of bondage 05650; for by strength 02392 of hand 03027 the LORD 03068 brought you out 03318 from this [place]: there shall no leavened bread 02557 be eaten 0398 .
Exd 20:8 Remember 02142 the sabbath 07676 day 03117, to keep it holy 06942 .
Exd 20:24 An altar 04196 of earth 0127 thou shalt make 06213 unto me, and shalt sacrifice 02076 thereon thy burnt offerings 05930, and thy peace offerings 08002, thy sheep 06629, and thine oxen 01241: in all places 04725 where I record 02142 my name 08034 I will come 0935 unto thee, and I will bless 01288 thee.
Exd 23:13 And in all [things] that I have said 0559 unto you be circumspect 08104 : and make no mention 02142 of the name 08034 of other 0312 gods 0430, neither let it be heard 08085 out 05921 of thy mouth 06310.
Exd 32:13 Remember 02142 Abraham 085, Isaac 03327, and Israel 03478, thy servants 05650, to whom thou swarest 07650 by thine own self, and saidst 01696 unto them, I will multiply 07235 your seed 02233 as the stars 03556 of heaven 08064, and all this land 0776 that I have spoken 0559 of will I give 05414 unto your seed 02233, and they shall inherit 05157 [it] for ever 05769.
Exd 34:19 All that openeth 06363 the matrix 07358 [is] mine; and every firstling 06363 among thy cattle 04735, [whether] ox 07794 or sheep 07716, [that is male 02142 ].
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember 02142 my covenant 01285 with Jacob 03290, and also my covenant 01285 with Isaac 03327, and also my covenant 01285 with Abraham 085 will I remember 02142 ; and I will remember 02142 the land 0776.
Lev 26:45 But I will for their sakes remember 02142 the covenant 01285 of their ancestors 07223, whom I brought forth 03318 out of the land 0776 of Egypt 04714 in the sight 05869 of the heathen 01471, that I might be their God 0430: I [am] the LORD 03068.
Num 5:15 Then shall the man 0376 bring 0935 his wife 0802 unto the priest 03548, and he shall bring 0935 her offering 07133 for her, the tenth 06224 [part] of an ephah 0374 of barley 08184 meal 07058; he shall pour 03332 no oil 08081 upon it, nor put 05414 frankincense 03828 thereon; for it [is] an offering 04503 of jealousy 07068, an offering 04503 of memorial 02146, bringing 02142 00 iniquity 05771 to remembrance 02142 .
Num 10:9 And if ye go 0935 to war 04421 in your land 0776 against 06862 the enemy that oppresseth 06887 you, then ye shall blow an alarm 07321 with the trumpets 02689; and ye shall be remembered 02142 before 06440 the LORD 03068 your God 0430, and ye shall be saved 03467 from your enemies 0341 .
Num 11:5 We remember 02142 the fish 01710, which we did eat 0398 in Egypt 04714 freely 02600; the cucumbers 07180, and the melons 020, and the leeks 02682, and the onions 01211, and the garlick 07762:
Num 15:39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe 06734, that ye may look 07200 upon it, and remember 02142 all the commandments 04687 of the LORD 03068, and do 06213 them; and that ye seek 08446 not after 0310 your own heart 03824 and your own eyes 05869, after 0310 which ye use to go a whoring 02181 :
Num 15:40 That ye may remember 02142 , and do 06213 all my commandments 04687, and be 01961 holy 06918 unto your God 0430.
Deu 5:15 And remember 02142 that thou wast a servant 05650 in the land 0776 of Egypt 04714, and [that] the LORD 03068 thy God 0430 brought 03318 thee out thence through a mighty 02389 hand 03027 and by a stretched out 05186 arm 02220: therefore the LORD 03068 thy God 0430 commanded 06680 thee to keep 06213 the sabbath 07676 day 03117.
Deu 7:18 Thou shalt not be afraid 03372 of them: [but] shalt well 02142 remember 02142 what the LORD 03068 thy God 0430 did 06213 unto Pharaoh 06547, and unto all Egypt 04714;
Continued Search Results 1. (Gen 8:1 - Deu 5:15)

2. (Deu 7:18 - 2Sa 18:18)

3. (2Sa 19:19 - Est 2:1)

Studyin'2Show
Jun 25th 2008, 01:58 PM
Hi S2S,

This is what God told the children of Israel to remember when He commanded them to remember the sabbath day to keep it holy:


Deuteronomy 5

13 Six days thou shalt labor, and do all thy work:

14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
Hi Shirley!

The context here is a bit different from the actual commandment to which I was referring. This is but another reason to honor the Sabbath day, but in the passage above God is telling them to remember from whence they had come. The commandment tells us to remember, not the slavery in Egypt or even the days of creation but rather the day itself.

Exodus 20:8 - Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Earlier, before the commandment was even given, this was said.

Exodus 16:23-29
23 Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’” 24 So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. 25 Then Moses said, “Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field. 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”
27 Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. 28 And the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? 29 See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.”

It seems clear that the seventh day was the Sabbath to the LORD, yet this is BEFORE the commandments were given on Sinai. God also ask how long they will refuse to keep His laws, but this is before the Law was given to Moses. You must see the significance in that. What 'law' or 'commandments' was God referring to since the formal giving of the Law was yet to come? And Naphal, this is a specific reference to the Sabbath being kept as a law BEFORE the commandment was given on Mount Sinai. These are things that should be considered whether we, as believers, keep Sabbath or not.

God Bless!

Clifton
Jun 25th 2008, 02:19 PM
Yes, thank you. But I can only quote the whole post. Not just a sentence or a phrase like some people can. God bless.

What do to is the adjust the "quote" tags - here is what your post which I am replying to looks, like with tags:



Yes, thank you. But I can only quote the whole post. Not just a sentence or a phrase like some people can. God bless.


The first quote tag shows the user name, in this case, "davidandme", the separated by the semicolon ";", which is the board post #, in this case, "1684232". That way, with the little icon box after the user name, an user can mouse-click on that icon to direct their browser to the post that is being "quoted and replied" to. This first "quote" tag is special and is only needed once. If you want to divide the quote up into multiple quotes, 2 or more, then you would remove the ending "[/quote]", ("closing tag" identified with a forward slash, "/"), and the next quotes only need to start out with a "
" tag. Such tags are called parsing tags.

There is also a feature in the Editor that lets you select text and then click on an icon at the top to "quote" the text - on my end, it is the icon to the left to the "#" icon.

Let's demonstrate by using "Quotes" of your post:

I will remove the "closing tag", , which is at the end of our post, "God bless.[/quote]", and move it to the end of "Yes, thank you."


Yes, thank you.

Reply/Response: Your Welcome.


But I can only quote the whole post. Reply/Response: You'll get the hang of it. ;)

So what the above looks like in the editor constructing the post, the above quote appears in the editing text box as follows:


But I can only quote the whole post.

- - -

Now, let's proceed with your quote "broken up" into multiple parts:


Not just a sentence or a phrase like some people can. Reply/Response: It takes time to get accustomed to the features of the board.


God bless. Reply/Response: You too. The "quote" tag can be used for other things too, like quoting text from articles, text files, web pages, and so on.



“For Elohim so loved the world that He gave His only brought-forth Son, so that everyone who believes in Him should not perish but possess everlasting life.
John 3:16 The Scriptures 1998+


Now, putting aside the formatting features, let's look at the above text as it would appear in the editor with the "quote" tags which you are using to post a message:



“For Elohim so loved the world that He gave His only brought-forth Son, so that everyone who believes in Him should not perish but possess everlasting life.
John 3:16 The Scriptures 1998+


So, the "
" tag is the opening/beginning tag for the text that follows it, and the "" is the closing/ending tag after the text being quoted.

You can find out more about tags here at:

http://bibleforums.org/misc.php?do=bbcode

Hopefully, this will get ya started. You'll get the hang of the features in time. ;)

Blessings.

keck553
Jun 25th 2008, 04:51 PM
Bottom line is that if God Incarnate kept Shabbat, it's profitable for me. In fact we have come to know is IS a blessing. The danger is in worshipping Sabbat like some of the Pharisees did in lieu of God and adding all thier man made commandments to it. But that can happen to anything we choose to obey God in. We are free in Christ to observe His commands without condemnation.

Always ask what God says about it. If you beleive Jesus is one with the Father, then you know He gave the Torah at Sinai and being God, kept it according to the Father's way perfectly. You know from reading Genesis that He separated Shabbat from the other days and called it Holy. God doesn't change. Any of us can perform spiritual gymnastics and make God's word fit our way, but that isn't the truth.

coshirly
Jun 25th 2008, 05:40 PM
I guess that this exact subject has become one of the most prominent differences between this christian and that. We all know that God rested after all his creating but I don't agree that this is in the literal sense. I believe that the bible suggests that we take a moment to sit and reflect all the deeds that we have done at any given time and asess if we are satisfied. If not, then we should make able to right a wrong or do something again until we get it right.:hmm:

Naphal
Jun 25th 2008, 08:25 PM
And Naphal, this is a specific reference to the Sabbath being kept as a law BEFORE the commandment was given on Mount Sinai. These are things that should be considered whether we, as believers, keep Sabbath or not.



Should we consider this also?How do you explain this verse in light of the others?


Nehemiah 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
Nehemiah 9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

Didn't they already know of the Holy Sabbath? There has to be a reason why this is said some 15 days after they first heard the word Sabbath. I suggest they weren't "made known" of it in the same way they were at Sinai.

RabbiKnife
Jun 25th 2008, 08:28 PM
And Jesus is our Sabbath rest.
Period.

And if a Christian chooses to follow rules and traditions, they are free to do so. Paul certainly allowed it. But with that freedom to place bondage upon oneself comes the requirement to refrain from placing similar burdens on those that choose to rest only and always in Christ.

Naphal
Jun 25th 2008, 08:32 PM
Bottom line is that if God Incarnate kept Shabbat, it's profitable for me.

He didn't keep shabbath {shab-bawth'} . He worked on it when work of any kind was written by God to be against the law.



The danger is in worshipping Sabbat like some of the Pharisees did in lieu of God and adding all thier man made commandments to it. But that can happen to anything we choose to obey God in.


Is the latter statement some type of possibly justification for the first statement? I agree with you that there is danger elevating the Sabbath up too high and worshipping it above God who created it. That happens a lot.



We are free in Christ to observe His commands without condemnation.

Christ never commanded observance of the Sabbath day.




If you beleive Jesus is one with the Father, then you know He gave the Torah at Sinai and being God, kept it according to the Father's way perfectly.

That's Oneness teaching. Jesus is not one with his Father as being one person.



You know from reading Genesis that He separated Shabbat from the other days and called it Holy. God doesn't change. Any of us can perform spiritual gymnastics and make God's word fit our way, but that isn't the truth.

Paul clearly states we can esteem or not esteem any day of the week we wish to. Saturdays are no longer any more Holy than any other day. They are all Holy.

Naphal
Jun 25th 2008, 08:34 PM
I guess that this exact subject has become one of the most prominent differences between this christian and that.

I don't think so. I think the timing of the Rapture and the speaking in tongues is a more prominent difference between Christians. Those that keep Saturdays is a minority in Christianity...it just appears to be prominent in threads about the Sabbath ;)

Studyin'2Show
Jun 25th 2008, 09:14 PM
Should we consider this also?How do you explain this verse in light of the others?


Nehemiah 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
Nehemiah 9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

Didn't they already know of the Holy Sabbath? There has to be a reason why this is said some 15 days after they first heard the word Sabbath. I suggest they weren't "made known" of it in the same way they were at Sinai.We should consider everything, my friend. :) Yes, He gave them right judgments, and true laws, and good statutes and commandments at Sinai. And as scripture records He also made known to them the reason for His Sabbath. Scripture does not contradict itself. Both statements are true. His people knew of His Sabbath before Sinai AND He made known His holy Sabbath at Sinai. Just as His people knew of Messiah before Yeshua AND He was made known through Yeshua. It all works together in context. ;)

God Bless!

Studyin'2Show
Jun 25th 2008, 09:16 PM
And Jesus is our Sabbath rest.
Period.

And if a Christian chooses to follow rules and traditions, they are free to do so. Paul certainly allowed it. But with that freedom to place bondage upon oneself comes the requirement to refrain from placing similar burdens on those that choose to rest only and always in Christ.Why must it be seen as either or? We all find rest in Yeshua AND the Sabbath day is still for us. I see no conflict. :dunno:

Naphal
Jun 25th 2008, 09:45 PM
We And as scripture records He also made known to them the reason for His Sabbath.

So the difference is that they only knew the reason for the Sabbath at Sinai but knew only the Sabbath in name 15 days before? So, the true time they truly knew of the Sabbath would be at Sinai, do you agree?




Scripture does not contradict itself. Both statements are true.

Yes, I made the same comment earlier in the thread and also said there had to be a difference between the two times. We might have an agreement on it now though.



His people knew of His Sabbath before Sinai AND He made known His holy Sabbath at Sinai.

Ok, and the difference is that the second time is when they had a fuller knowledge of it than the first. Example, everyone knows about Christmas but very few know the true meaning behind it. If you don't believe in Christmas then substitute a different thing there. I think you understand the point.






Just as His people knew of Messiah before Yeshua AND He was made known through Yeshua. It all works together in context. ;)

Yes that's a good example. It's one thing to know a Messiah is coming but nothing else, it's another thing to KNOW Jesus Christ in all his glory through the gospels and through the Spirit.

threebigrocks
Jun 25th 2008, 09:46 PM
Yes, thank you. But I can only quote the whole post. Not just a sentence or a phrase like some people can. God bless.

Quote the whole post, remove what isn't pertinent leaving the quote brackets at the beginning and end.

Naphal
Jun 25th 2008, 09:47 PM
Why must it be seen as either or? We all find rest in Yeshua AND the Sabbath day is still for us. I see no conflict. :dunno:

He didn't say either or....he said it's ok to keep the sabbath day:


And if a Christian chooses to follow rules and traditions, they are free to do so. Paul certainly allowed it.

He simply also added that it's wrong for that person to judge others that do not keep the Sabbath day.

keck553
Jun 25th 2008, 10:26 PM
I agree. Observing or not observing God's Holy day (Genesis) is between a believer and God.

I only know what works for me and my family. The thought of setting aside a whole 24 hours for God ONLY was abhorrent to me. It seemed like a terrible yoke. How would anything get done? I understand totally the mindset going into something like this. I struggled with it for a long time.

Except on this side of it I found iIt's an awesome blessing to look forward to Friday evening and put away all throughts and struggles we daily consume ourselves with for our provision. To turn off all the profane garbage Hollowood pollutes our minds with.

Man does not live from bread only, but by the words that proceed from the mouth of God. Jesus used this Torah verse to stop satan in his tracks, and if it's good enough for Him, it's good enough for my life.

Shabbat is a time to set apart for God's use only, to put away all our worries and concerns and all the stuff that the world throws at us and distracts us with. It is a day to study the Word of God, spend time with our families and be thankful for our blessings. It is a time to bless God, pray and bask in His loving arms.

The Hebrew word for 'work' as relates to Shabbat is M'lakah. As far as I can tell this relates to working for provision. The sages and Pharisees perverted it into a litany of halicha - rules and regulations, but that does not void what God said.

It's not too difficult to separate the rabbinical tares from the wheat.

Naphal
Jun 25th 2008, 11:16 PM
The Hebrew word for 'work' as relates to Shabbat is M'lakah. As far as I can tell this relates to working for provision.


Exodus 12:16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

No manner of work was allowed. Only the work of eating (not gathering food) was allowed.


Exodus 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Again, all your work should be done before the 7th day. No one, not you nor anyone related to you, not strangers to you, even cattle could not work.

It was not don't do certain types of work while the rest of your work was ok. This is God's rules, not the Pharisees.

keck553
Jun 25th 2008, 11:48 PM
Yes, I know the scripture. I'm trying to define the correct translation for the Hebrew term of 'work'.

The Pharasees certainly did add human rules to all God's commands. That's what Jesus was so fired up about.

Jesus invoked the Orah Torah in regards to Shabbat. When the Torah teachers argued with Him about healing on Shabbat, He used the 'greater than' argument the sages developed for Brit' Melah if the 8th day fell on Shabbat. He also used the 'greater than' arguments of not allowing your cattle to starve, etc.


These greater than arguments extend to this day, in our circumstances. Certainly you wouldn't allow dirty dishes to create an unhealthy environement for your family, or a broken water pipe to flood your home.

None of this Work Jesus did on Shabbat was related to what I can get from the word
מלאכה

Of course I could be wrong and I admit it.

Naphal
Jun 26th 2008, 12:15 AM
Yes, I know the scripture. I'm trying to define the correct translation for the Hebrew term of 'work'.

Work is the proper translation of the Hebrew word. Keep in mind it says "all manner of work" so that should be clear enough.




The Pharasees certainly did add human rules to all God's commands. That's what Jesus was so fired up about.

Yes but that isn't the issue at hand. God said all manner of work could not be done, not the Pharisees.

davidandme
Jun 26th 2008, 12:35 AM
I think that treand is changing. More and more people are asking questions about the Law of God and the Sabbath. I see it in the internet and the radio.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 26th 2008, 01:03 AM
He didn't say either or....he said it's ok to keep the sabbath day:

He simply also added that it's wrong for that person to judge others that do not keep the Sabbath day.Naphal, I was commenting on this portion.
And Jesus is our Sabbath rest.
Period.
That pretty much makes what follows it seem less genuine. As for someone being judged for NOT keeping Sabbath :hmm: I haven't seen that at all in this thread.

God Bless!

Naphal
Jun 26th 2008, 01:11 AM
Naphal, I was commenting on this portion. That pretty much makes what follows it seem less genuine. As for someone being judged for NOT keeping Sabbath :hmm: I haven't seen that at all in this thread.

God Bless!


I take that as being that Jesus being the Sabbath rest is the only true rest. The other resting we can do, on whatever day we choose, is secondary to the spiritual rest.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 26th 2008, 01:30 AM
I take that as being that Jesus being the Sabbath rest is the only true rest. The other resting we can do, on whatever day we choose, is secondary to the spiritual rest.Hence the rub. :D Not one person has disputed that we find our rest in Him. However, this thread is specific, like the commandment, and speaks of the Sabbath DAY. The spiritual rest we find in Messiah does not negate the need for physical rest. Nor does the physical rest we take on the Sabbath day in any way denigrate or discount the rest we find in Him.

ShirleyFord
Jun 26th 2008, 02:02 AM
Hi Shirley!

The context here is a bit different from the actual commandment to which I was referring. This is but another reason to honor the Sabbath day, but in the passage above God is telling them to remember from whence they had come. The commandment tells us to remember, not the slavery in Egypt or even the days of creation but rather the day itself.

Exodus 20:8 - Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Earlier, before the commandment was even given, this was said.

Exodus 16:23-29
23 Then he said to them, “This is what the LORD has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’” 24 So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. 25 Then Moses said, “Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field. 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”
27 Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. 28 And the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? 29 See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.”

It seems clear that the seventh day was the Sabbath to the LORD, yet this is BEFORE the commandments were given on Sinai. God also ask how long they will refuse to keep His laws, but this is before the Law was given to Moses. You must see the significance in that. What 'law' or 'commandments' was God referring to since the formal giving of the Law was yet to come?

Exodus 15

22 So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water. 23And when they came to Marah, they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah. 24And the people murmured against Moses, saying, What shall we drink?

25 And he cried unto the LORD; and the LORD showed him a tree, which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved them



Exodus 16

4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no. 19 And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning. 20 Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.

5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily. 23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. 25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. 27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days;abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

Naphal
Jun 26th 2008, 02:57 AM
The spiritual rest we find in Messiah does not negate the need for physical rest.

No it doesn't but it does negate the demand to rest on a certain day.




Nor does the physical rest we take on the Sabbath day in any way denigrate or discount the rest we find in Him.

Correct, however, I believe some who keep the first one might not fully understand the more important rest in Christ...same that many who only understand the rest in Christ don't understand that keeping the other is ok and in no conflict as long as both are properly understood.

ShirleyFord
Jun 26th 2008, 03:38 AM
We should consider everything, my friend. :) Yes, He gave them right judgments, and true laws, and good statutes and commandments at Sinai. And as scripture records He also made known to them the reason for His Sabbath. Scripture does not contradict itself. Both statements are true. His people knew of His Sabbath before Sinai AND He made known His holy Sabbath at Sinai. Just as His people knew of Messiah before Yeshua AND He was made known through Yeshua. It all works together in context. ;)

God Bless!

Hi S2S,

Exodus 16 and Exodus 20 only record part of the law for keeping the seventh-day weekly sabbath, the part addressed to the children of Israel who were not of the Levitical priesthood.

They were to keep the sabbath day holy by staying inside their dwelling and doing absolutely not work. And when God said "rest", "no work", He meant no work of any kind:


Ex 31

14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death



Ex 35

2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. 3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Numbers 15

32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.



This is the only thing the Lord allowed them to do on the sabbath day:

Lev 16:31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.




We find the rest of the law addressed to the high priest and his priests for keeping the sabbath in Lev. 24, Ex. 28 and Numbers 28. Unlike the rest of the children of Israel, they kept the sabbath day holy by working and doing double the work they did each of the other 6 days:





Leviticus 24

5 And thou shalt take fine flour, and bake twelve cakes thereof: two tenth deals shall be in one cake. 6 And thou shalt set them in two rows, six on a row, upon the pure table before the LORD. 7 And thou shalt put pure frankincense upon each row, that it may be on the bread for a memorial, even an offering made by fire unto the LORD. 8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant. 9 And it shall be Aaron's and his sons'; and they shall eat it in the holy place: for it is most holy unto him of the offerings of the LORD made by fire by a perpetual statute.


Exodus 28

1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Command the children of Israel, and say unto them, My offering, and my bread for my sacrifices made by fire, for a sweet savor unto me, shall ye observe to offer unto me in their due season. 3 And thou shalt say unto them, This is the offering made by fire which ye shall offer unto the LORD; two lambs of the first year without spot day by day, for a continual burnt offering. 4 The one lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer at even; 5 And a tenth part of an ephah of flour for a meat offering, mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil. 6 It is a continual burnt offering, which was ordained in mount Sinai for a sweet savor, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD. 7 And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering. 8 And the other lamb shalt thou offer at even: as the meat offering of the morning, and as the drink offering thereof, thou shalt offer it, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savor unto the LORD.

Num 28

9 And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof: 10 This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.



Shirley

Studyin'2Show
Jun 26th 2008, 10:35 AM
No it doesn't but it does negate the demand to rest on a certain day.I don't see anywhere that Messiah says He in any way negates the Law. By His actions He shows that He takes it to an even deeper spiritual level. ;)

Naphal
Jun 26th 2008, 10:39 AM
I don't see anywhere that Messiah says He in any way negates the Law.

The Sabbath day isn't law in the NT. That old command, that demand from God that his people rest etc on a certain day does not exist in the NT scriptures, or the new covenant.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 26th 2008, 10:40 AM
Exodus 15

22 So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water. 23And when they came to Marah, they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah. 24And the people murmured against Moses, saying, What shall we drink?

25 And he cried unto the LORD; and the LORD showed him a tree, which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved them

Exodus 16

4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no. 19 And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning. 20 Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.

5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily. 23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. 25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. 27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days;abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. 30 So the people rested on the seventh day. Though I love to read scripture I'm not sure how you feel it supports your position unless you tell me. :hmm: I made the point that scripture clearly shows that God felt they were refusing to keep His law and commandments BEFORE Sinai where the Law was formally given and you post the scripture that supports my position. :confused Can you explain? Thanks!

God Bless!

Naphal
Jun 26th 2008, 10:45 AM
God Bless!

S2S, can you explain this:

28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?


What had Moses done wrong? You say that God was mad at Israel for breaking the Sabbath but he clearly is angry at Moses not the others. I think it's important to investigate this further.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 26th 2008, 11:02 AM
S2S, can you explain this:

28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

What had Moses done wrong? You say that God was mad at Israel for breaking the Sabbath but he clearly is angry at Moses not the others. I think it's important to investigate this further.Whoever God was upset with, He speaks of laws and commandments BEFORE they were given at Sinai. What laws? What commandments were before Sinai? BTW, 'ye' like 'you' can be either singular or plural to cover the whole nation.

Naphal
Jun 26th 2008, 11:29 AM
Whoever God was upset with, He speaks of laws and commandments BEFORE they were given at Sinai.

It says he spoke to Moses...but yes, he refers to laws and commandments.


What laws? What commandments were before Sinai?


I believe they are found in the same chapter we are discussing.

Here is one example:


Exodus 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.





BTW, 'ye' like 'you' can be either singular or plural to cover the whole nation.

Did Moses break the Sabbath?

Naphal
Jun 26th 2008, 11:39 AM
Deuteronomy 4:10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.

I think this might also shed some light on the difference of Moses telling Israel about having to rest on that first Sabbath and it really "being made known" unto them at Sinai. Here God will "make them hear my words".

Studyin'2Show
Jun 26th 2008, 12:20 PM
Here is one example:

Exodus 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

Did Moses break the Sabbath?Yes, God speaks of His law before Sinai which is my point. I don't believe God's law began at Sinai. I believe 'how' He communicated it to His people may have changed. How they received and understood it may have changed. With that said, if God's law existed before Sinai, then the Sabbath existed before Sinai. Just as His people knew they shouldn't lie and steal and murder and have other gods prior to Sinai, I believe they knew of the Sabbath. I believe this is the point the OP is attempting to show by referencing the Genesis 2 mention of God sanctifying the seventh day.

As for whether Moses broke Sabbath, scripture does not say that he does individually.

God Bless!

keck553
Jun 26th 2008, 03:24 PM
No it doesn't but it does negate the demand to rest on a certain day.

Correct, however, I believe some who keep the first one might not fully understand the more important rest in Christ...same that many who only understand the rest in Christ don't understand that keeping the other is ok and in no conflict as long as both are properly understood.

This comment sounds like legalism.

keck553
Jun 26th 2008, 04:53 PM
No it doesn't but it does negate the demand to rest on a certain day.

Correct, however, I believe some who keep the first one might not fully understand the more important rest in Christ...same that many who only understand the rest in Christ don't understand that keeping the other is ok and in no conflict as long as both are properly understood.

Jesus taught Jews. He didn't need to teach them to keep Shabbat, it was a fixed day of their week, set apart. Shabbat in the Hebrew calander isn't named after some pagan god, it's Shabbat. The rest of the days are set apart by in every way. What Jesus taught about Shabbat was the 'how much better than' teachings straight from the sages in the Oral Torah. Jesus taught nothing new except that He put the Torah on our hearts as prophesied in the TeNaKh. It's our choice to accept ALL the word of God as truth, or just twist it to fit our chosen lifestyles and egos. It's not my job as a human to judge anyone's relationship or obedience to God, that's between them and God. All I can do is see what God said.

What does God say anyway? Please bear with me and I will show you Jesus in the first letter of Genesis.

Some think God created hebrew, and if you look deep, you may think so too.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"

in Hebrew it looks like this:
בראשׁית ברא אלהים את השׁמים ואת הארץ׃
As you probably know, Hebrew reads from right to left. In a real Torah scroll, the first letter is enlarged, and for a reason other than Webster. The first Hebrew letter is a 'bet', and is very significant, as I will point out.

the first word is ''b're****" which literally means "In beginning". the letter 'bet' represents the preposition 'in'. Re**** means 'beginning'.

What beginning? Before what? What was before the beginning? It doesn't say "at beginning" afterall. Well, we all know God was before. In literary, God existed to the right of the 'bet'.

Notice the 'bet' is open to the rest of the verse and enlarged, it appears the rest of the letters 'flow out' from inside the 'bet'. Hebrew letters all have a meaning attached to them, and it may come as no surprise that the 'bet' means 'house' (Bet L'chem = Bethleham = house of bread). Most Jews. probably even Jesus refered to the Temple simple as 'Bet'.

Simply put, could the mouth shape of the 'bet' is a visible representation of the creatiion?

Also, there are two letters in verse 1 that are not translated in our english bibles. They are the letters 'alef-tav', which are the 15th and 16th letters of the verse. They serve as a grammatical device - which is understandable..but do not be lost on the fact that they are also the first and last letters of the hebrew alphabet (in the greek - alpha - omega). Additionally the letters alef-tav encompass a range of letters of which the exact middle letter is "mem", meaning "truth".

What was it Jesus said??? Um...before Abraham "I AM"..."I AM the alpha and the omega" (Rev 1:7-13 and 22:12-16) "I am the TRUTH" (MEM), the WAY (Torah) and the LIFE.

Does anyone consider the statements from Jesus not true?

Joh 8:58 Yeshua said to them, "Yes, indeed! Before Avraham came into being, I AM!"

The Targumim are ancient Aramaic paraphrases of the Torah and some of the Writings that likely date to the 1st and 2nd century. They can provide some information as to how scripture passages were viewed around the time of Jesus. The Targumim use a word many times in conjunction with the Person of God and His creatice work. It is the Aramaic word "Memra" (word), the Greek equivalent being "Logos".

Here's how the Targum Onkelos translates Deuteronomy 33:27:

"The habitation of Elohey is from eternity, and the world was made by his Memra and He will drive out thy enemies from before thee, and will say, Destroy"

How would this fit with the letter 'bet' being the first letter of Scripture, and the embodiment of the creative Voice?

The Greek word for 'word' is "Logos". The Apostolic Scriptures (New Testament) have no problem at all with a visible, and bodily manifestation of God. They deal with the question as if it wasn't a question at all. Jesus is simply and honestly presented as "God with us". It can't be any clearer than in John 1:1-18.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing made had being. In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not suppressed it. . . . The Word became a human being and lived with us, and we saw his Sh'khinah (glory, presence), the Sh'khinah of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth. (John 1:1-5, 14, CJB)
To the Jews of that era, not yet having chapter and verse divisions by which to reference scripturem quoting even part of a sentence sufficed to call the whole passage to mind. Thus, by using the phrase, “In the beginning,” John is guaranteeing that his audience will automatically call to mind the first words of the Torah: “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.”


"For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah..."

The "bulls eye" of the Torah, is Messiah. Every commandment, statute and judgment, is a reflection of Messiah. Jesus is the full revelation of Torah and through Him, the Torah is made alive in us.
Unless the Prophets were wrong?

The point is that Jesus Is God, and as God, keeps HIS OWN COMMANDMENTS. If for one moment, Jesus taught against one iota Torah, including Shabbat, the Sanhedron would have been able to convict Him. But our Passover Lamb was SPOTLESS. What a human does with them is strictly between them and God. That's what Paul alluded to.

God doesn't change.

Naphal
Jun 26th 2008, 05:38 PM
Yes, God speaks of His law before Sinai which is my point.

We know God's law began in the garden...but I asked had Moses' broken the Sabbath in the scriptures at hand because he is addressed and it appears he is blamed for what others did and I think it is a significant issue that might reveal more knowledge about what was occurring there as opposed to what occurred at Sinai.



I don't believe God's law began at Sinai.

It didn't but the ten commandments and the rest of the first covenant law did begin at Sinai.




I believe 'how' He communicated it to His people may have changed. How they received and understood it may have changed. With that said, if God's law existed before Sinai, then the Sabbath existed before Sinai.

Again, the Sabbath first existed on that first 7th day, then it is never mentioned again until 15 days before Sinai but it is also written that the Sabbath wasn't made known to Israel until Sinai. We can easily say the Sabbath wasn't mentioned until Moses and be accurate.




Just as His people knew they shouldn't lie and steal and murder and have other gods prior to Sinai, I believe they knew of the Sabbath.

Yet we lack any evidence of it as opposed to the other issues. I don't believe they were "made known the Holy Sabbath" until Sinai as it is written which gives us evidence that they did not know of it until that time.




As for whether Moses broke Sabbath, scripture does not say that he does individually.

I agree yet God says to Moses and no one else, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?"

Clifton
Jun 26th 2008, 08:06 PM
Jesus taught Jews. He didn't need to teach them to keep Shabbat, it was a fixed day of their week, set apart. Shabbat in the Hebrew calander isn't named after some pagan god, it's Shabbat. The rest of the days are set apart by in every way. What Jesus taught about Shabbat was the 'how much better than' teachings straight from the sages in the Oral Torah. Jesus taught nothing new except that He put the Torah on our hearts as prophesied in the TeNaKh. It's our choice to accept ALL the word of God as truth, or just twist it to fit our chosen lifestyles and egos. It's not my job as a human to judge anyone's relationship or obedience to God, that's between them and God. All I can do is see what God said.

What does God say anyway? Please bear with me and I will show you Jesus in the first letter of Genesis.

Some think God created hebrew, and if you look deep, you may think so too.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"

in Hebrew it looks like this:
בראשׁית ברא אלהים את השׁמים ואת הארץ׃
As you probably know, Hebrew reads from right to left. In a real Torah scroll, the first letter is enlarged, and for a reason other than Webster. The first Hebrew letter is a 'bet', and is very significant, as I will point out.

My goodness, you know your stuff and have studied very well! ;) Ani Medeber Ivreet. Actually, I am not good with it when it is without the vowels.


the first word is ''b're****" which literally means "In beginning". the letter 'bet' represents the preposition 'in'. Re**** means 'beginning'.See your quote above - You may not know it, but the system has replaced some of the English Letters with asterisks ("*"), because it contains a modern day vulgar word embedded within the real word - they, whomever they are, should have configured the system to look at the "vulgar" words as "whole words", not "a part of word", especially on a "Biblical" board;

Anyway, when you notice that a word appears to contain the spelling of a vulgar word within it, you will have to space it out or put something between the letters, e.g.,

Holy Bible From The Ancient Eastern Texts: Aramaic Of The P*e*s*h*i*t*t*a by George M. Lamsa (1933)

See? Even the name of a Bible contains a string of letters within that are the same as a 'dirty' word, despite it is pronounced as 'pa' shee' tah', or something like that.


What beginning? Before what? What was before the beginning? It doesn't say "at beginning" afterall. Well, we all know God was before. In literary, God existed to the right of the 'bet'.

Notice the 'bet' is open to the rest of the verse and enlarged, it appears the rest of the letters 'flow out' from inside the 'bet'. Hebrew letters all have a meaning attached to them, and it may come as no surprise that the 'bet' means 'house' (Bet L'chem = Bethleham = house of bread). Most Jews. probably even Jesus refered to the Temple simple as 'Bet'.

Simply put, could the mouth shape of the 'bet' is a visible representation of the creatiion?

Also, there are two letters in verse 1 that are not translated in our english bibles. They are the letters 'alef-tav', which are the 15th and 16th letters of the verse. They serve as a grammatical device - which is understandable..but do not be lost on the fact that they are also the first and last letters of the hebrew alphabet (in the greek - alpha - omega).

Additionally the letters alef-tav encompass a range of letters of which the exact middle letter is "mem", meaning "truth".

What was it Jesus said??? Um...before Abraham "I AM"..."I AM the alpha and the omega" (Rev 1:7-13 and 22:12-16) "I am the TRUTH" (MEM), the WAY (Torah) and the LIFE. It's called The "ET" factor. (Actually, that is Rev 1:8. ;)). The word et (את) cannot be translated from Hebrew into any other language. As I guess you already know, it simply acts as a direct object pointer, or a word that indicates what object in a sentence receives the action. In Revelation 1:8 (etc.), the heavens and the earth receive the action of being created by YHWH;
“I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, Beginning and End,” says יהוה “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 1:8 The Scriptures 1998+

Does anyone consider the statements from Jesus not true?

Joh 8:58 Yeshua said to them, "Yes, indeed! Before Avraham came into being, I AM!"

The Targumim are ancient Aramaic paraphrases of the Torah and some of the Writings that likely date to the 1st and 2nd century. They can provide some information as to how scripture passages were viewed around the time of Jesus. The Targumim use a word many times in conjunction with the Person of God and His creatice work. It is the Aramaic word "Memra" (word), the Greek equivalent being "Logos".

Here's how the Targum Onkelos translates Deuteronomy 33:27:

"The habitation of Elohey is from eternity, and the world was made by his Memra and He will drive out thy enemies from before thee, and will say, Destroy"

How would this fit with the letter 'bet' being the first letter of Scripture, and the embodiment of the creative Voice?

The Greek word for 'word' is "Logos". The Apostolic Scriptures (New Testament) have no problem at all with a visible, and bodily manifestation of God. They deal with the question as if it wasn't a question at all. Jesus is simply and honestly presented as "God with us". It can't be any clearer than in John 1:1-18.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing made had being. In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not suppressed it. . . . The Word became a human being and lived with us, and we saw his Sh'khinah (glory, presence), the Sh'khinah of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth. (John 1:1-5, 14, CJB)
To the Jews of that era, not yet having chapter and verse divisions by which to reference scripturem quoting even part of a sentence sufficed to call the whole passage to mind. Thus, by using the phrase, “In the beginning,” John is guaranteeing that his audience will automatically call to mind the first words of the Torah: “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.”


"For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah..."

The "bulls eye" of the Torah, is Messiah. Every commandment, statute and judgment, is a reflection of Messiah. Jesus is the full revelation of Torah and through Him, the Torah is made alive in us.
Unless the Prophets were wrong?

The point is that Jesus Is God, and as God, keeps HIS OWN COMMANDMENTS. If for one moment, Jesus taught against one iota Torah, including Shabbat, the Sanhedron would have been able to convict Him. But our Passover Lamb was SPOTLESS. What a human does with them is strictly between them and God. That's what Paul alluded to.

God doesn't change.
Keep up the excellent work!:thumbsup: I'm not acquainted with Aramaic, but am learning the various idioms underlying the Greek, and why some things got side-tracked, and so on.

Blessings!
P.S. How did you get the Hebrew Letters to stay from right to left in your post - when I do it, the editor here reverses it, making it left to right, except when I quote scriptures from The Scriptures (ISR) Bible where the Hebrew Tetragrammaton and Messiah consonants are:

השע רשא ו:תכאלמ-לכ:מ יעיבש:ה םוי:ב תבשי:ו השע רשא ו:תכאלמ יעיבש:ה םוי:ב םיהלא לכי:ו

(Genesis 2:2 BHM)

Studyin'2Show
Jun 26th 2008, 09:05 PM
I agree yet God says to Moses and no one else, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?"I'm surprised that you're interpreting it that way but that's your prerogative. :dunno: I don't think that changes, however, the fact that His people were aware of His Sabbath before Sinai whether they knew the full extent of its value and purpose.

God Bless!

Naphal
Jun 26th 2008, 09:14 PM
I'm surprised that you're interpreting it that way but that's your prerogative. :dunno: I don't think that changes, however, the fact that His people were aware of His Sabbath before Sinai whether they knew the full extent of its value and purpose.

God Bless!


"whether they knew the full extent of its value and purpose" is the key to this....its clear that Moses spoke of "the Sabbath" and told them what not to do but we all see that it is also written that they were made known of the Holy Sabbath after Moses came down from Sinai so they couldn't have been known of it very well the earlier time which is evidenced by their going on and looking for food when they weren't supposed to.

So, no evidence in scripture that anyone knew of the Sabbath before God told Moses about it, and even when Moses told Israel, they didn't really get the full knowledge of it until Sinai. Do you agree

Studyin'2Show
Jun 26th 2008, 09:22 PM
"whether they knew the full extent of its value and purpose" is the key to this....its clear that Moses spoke of "the Sabbath" and told them what not to do but we all see that it is also written that they were made known of the Holy Sabbath after Moses came down from Sinai so they couldn't have been known of it very well the earlier time which is evidenced by their going on and looking for food when they weren't supposed to.

So, no evidence in scripture that anyone knew of the Sabbath before God told Moses about it, and even when Moses told Israel, they didn't really get the full knowledge of it until Sinai. Do you agreeI believe Adam had full knowledge of everything. The word 'everything' is all inclusive. He and his wife ate from the tree of Knowledge of good and evil. Why do you feel that 'knowledge' would not have included that of the Sabbath? :hmm:

Naphal
Jun 26th 2008, 11:31 PM
I believe Adam had full knowledge of everything. The word 'everything' is all inclusive.

And where is that in scripture?



He and his wife ate from the tree of Knowledge of good and evil. Why do you feel that 'knowledge' would not have included that of the Sabbath? :hmm:

Because it isn't written that they knew of the Sabbath nor that they knew "everything".

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Does this mean Adam and Eve had knowledge of everything and every aspect of all things good and evil or just that they knew of good and evil with no implication that they knew everything?

Studyin'2Show
Jun 26th 2008, 11:47 PM
And where is that in scripture?

Because it isn't written that they knew of the Sabbath nor that they knew "everything".

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Does this mean Adam and Eve had knowledge of everything and every aspect of all things good and evil or just that they knew of good and evil with no implication that they knew everything?Naphal, he walked with God in the garden in the cool of the day even before he and his wife ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Why would he not know such a simple thing? He was alive in the garden with his wife and all of creation on the sixth day so he was there when God sanctified the seventh day. So why would he not know? :hmm:

Naphal
Jun 26th 2008, 11:56 PM
Naphal, he walked with God in the garden in the cool of the day even before he and his wife ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Why would he not know such a simple thing? He was alive in the garden with his wife and all of creation on the sixth day so he was there when God sanctified the seventh day. So why would he not know? :hmm:

How in the world would he know if God was resting or not? Or even what it meant unless God told him and we can't assume he did. Nothing in scripture even hints that anyone had knowledge of that first and only Sabbath day until Moses. The rest is speculation...

Studyin'2Show
Jun 27th 2008, 12:20 AM
How in the world would he know if God was resting or not? Or even what it meant unless God told him and we can't assume he did. Nothing in scripture even hints that anyone had knowledge of that first and only Sabbath day until Moses. The rest is speculation...This is one of those things we can ask Him in glory. You believe I am making an assumption that there was knowledge of Sabbath, I believe you are making an assumption that there was not. Scripture clearly says that the Sabbath was FOR man. The first Sabbath was during the first week of creation and man was there. I see no reason God would have kept it from the two people He had made it for. :dunno: Anyway, we're beginning to go off on a tangent here. :D

Naphal
Jun 27th 2008, 12:31 AM
This is one of those things we can ask Him in glory. You believe I am making an assumption that there was knowledge of Sabbath, I believe you are making an assumption that there was not. Scripture clearly says that the Sabbath was FOR man. The first Sabbath was during the first week of creation and man was there. I see no reason God would have kept it from the two people He had made it for. :dunno: Anyway, we're beginning to go off on a tangent here. :D

An assumption is to assume something is true or happened without actual evidence. I think your belief relies on assumption, and mine is just a result of reading what is given to us :) Yeah, that's enough on this part though. Like someone said, when the Sabbath was and who knew is irrelevant. It's just so boldly claimed without evidence so often. It's more important that the original Sabbath day is now no longer law. I know you disagree.

davidandme
Jun 27th 2008, 01:34 AM
This really isn't true. Both were initiated by God and thus has God as it's foundation. The NT is fully able to stand on it's own but the OT is a wonderful teacher and lesson in history (his-story). To suggest the NT cannot stand on it's own is just inaccurate IMO.

I hate to dissagree with you once again. But this is completely untrue. A lot of the NT writters quoted directly from the OT, including Jesus. It would be just about impossible to understand the book of Revelations without knowlege of the OT. God bless.

davidandme
Jun 27th 2008, 01:46 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't he sanctify the first 7th day? Meaning he doesn't say he rested on any other 7th day. Only that first one does God say he rested. In the NT we see that both Jesus and his Father worked on the 7th day's.

I think people mistake God's resting on the one day for him resting every Saturday. There is no evidence that he did such a thing and no evidence that he commanded anyone else to do it until he gave the law.

Remember, God made the Sabbath for men. I don't think that a He made it for Himself.

davidandme
Jun 27th 2008, 01:47 AM
I said it once and I'll say it again. I'm never going to be saved.

Don't be so negative!:pp

davidandme
Jun 27th 2008, 01:50 AM
This thread is on notice. If this topic can't be discussed respectfully in this thread then it won't be discussed at all. Please take care in your posts.

Are you the thread police?:lol: Making sure everybody behaves?

Naphal
Jun 27th 2008, 05:14 AM
Remember, God made the Sabbath for men. I don't think that a He made it for Himself.

He made the first one for himself because he rested on it. There is nothing to suggest man rested on a certain day until Moses revealed the Sabbath at the command of God.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 27th 2008, 11:08 AM
He made the first one for himself because he rested on it. There is nothing to suggest man rested on a certain day until Moses revealed the Sabbath at the command of God.Actually, in more than one place scripture says that He created it FOR man (not Himself).

Exodus 16:27-29
27 Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. 28 And the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? 29 See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.”

Mark 2:27-28
27 And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”

From the mouth of the Father and from the mouth of the Son. And not to revise the dead horse but the Father seems to be like many parents when they get pushed by their children. I have three with ages ranging from seven to eighteen (yes, I've gone gray around the edges :lol:). I don't bring out the 'how long are you not going to listen' or 'how many times do I have to tell you' card until there have been many times they have disobeyed. The language the Father uses here when combined with scripture that tells us He sanctified the day during the creation week supports my position. Would a father tell a child to do something one time only and then pull the 'how long' card after just one instance. As a parent, this sounds to me like the Father had had enough! That's my take on it. :dunno:

God Bless!

losthorizon
Jun 27th 2008, 12:29 PM
Actually, in more than one place scripture says that He created it FOR man (not Himself).
[U]


Why is there absolutely no example of Adam, Noah, Abraham or any Gentile ever keeping the Sabbath as a requirement (command) from God? Why does the NT (the Law of Christ) not command the disciples of Christ to “keep” any day including the Sabbath. These facts alone do great damage to the doctrine taught by latter-day Sabbatarianism.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 27th 2008, 01:18 PM
Why is there absolutely no example of Adam, Noah, Abraham or any Gentile ever keeping the Sabbath as a requirement (command) from God? Why does the NT (the Law of Christ) not command the disciples of Christ to “keep” any day including the Sabbath. These facts alone do great damage to the doctrine taught by latter-day Sabbatarianism.Because there is no scriptural example of anyone in scripture taking a day off to rest, should we infer that everyone before Sinai worked 24/7/365? That makes no sense. Why does the topic keep going back to the idea of something being a requirement? Do you not commit adultery simply because you feel it's what is required of you? Messiah came to put God's Law (Torah) in our heart (our desire). It should be our desire to not lie or steal or murder etc. That's what it means for His Law to be in our hearts. I do not keep Sabbath or observe His Feasts because it is a requirement. Heaven no! Nor do I want to see a burden or requirement placed up my brothers and sisters in Messiah. What I would like to do is be a witness to the fact that the Sabbath and His Feasts have been given to His people to be a blessing, not a burden. If anyone chooses not to receive them as such, that is their prerogative. This, however, does not change that from the very first week of creation scripture clearly shows us that God set apart the seventh day, He stated it as a command at Sinai, and Yeshua clarified it, calling Himself Lord of the Sabbath. It seems like a very clear pattern to me. Here's a question for you. Why did God rest on the seventh day of creation? Was He tired? :hmm:

God Bless!

diffangle
Jun 27th 2008, 02:45 PM
Are you the thread police?:lol: Making sure everybody behaves?She is actually... she's a moderator. :D

Studyin'2Show
Jun 27th 2008, 06:13 PM
She is actually... she's a moderator. :DI believe he was referring to watchinginawe but yes, he's a moderator too! :)

keck553
Jun 27th 2008, 10:02 PM
Why is there absolutely no example of Adam, Noah, Abraham or any Gentile ever keeping the Sabbath as a requirement (command) from God? Why does the NT (the Law of Christ) not command the disciples of Christ to “keep” any day including the Sabbath. These facts alone do great damage to the doctrine taught by latter-day Sabbatarianism.

Jesus certainly did not have to teach Jews about the sabbath. Their saturday is named 'shabbat'. It would be like someone in America teaching you to celebreate the 4th of July. If Jesus repeated a concept that EVERYONE KNEW AND OBSERVED, it would sound ridiculous. Shabbat is a given in Jewish culture, and that includes the culture our Messiah lived in.

Jesus put Torah on the heart with the beatitudes. Shabbat was not establishned by Torah, it was established when God separated it and called it Holy. The commandment says REMEMBER the sabbath, not 'here's a new one for ya'.

losthorizon
Jun 27th 2008, 11:21 PM
Because there is no scriptural example of anyone in scripture taking a day off to rest, should we infer that everyone before Sinai worked 24/7/365? That makes no sense.

The reason it makes no sense to you is because you choose to see everything through the eyes of day-keeping. I take a day off to rest every week and it has nothing to do with any day-keeping obligation to God. Common sense tells me I need to rest periodically. The folks who lived prior to the giving of the Law at Sinai had the same good sense – ie – they rested as their bodies/minds dictated but they were never commanded to keep the Sabbath – big difference.


Why does the topic keep going back to the idea of something being a requirement?
Because we have those on this board who erroneously teach day-keeping as a matter of law for Christians today. The truth is if the fourth commandment is part of the Law of Christ (and it is not) then we have no option – it must be kept just as the Jews were bound by law to keep it. But it is not part of the NT – again, no Christian and no Gentile was EVER commanded to keep any day including the Sabbath. Those who insist that Christians are commanded to keep the Sabbath are on the slippery slope into the shadows of Judaism – a position the NT writers warn against. We are children of the "free woman" we are not to “be subject again to a yoke of slavery…”
Galatians 4:31 (NASB) So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

losthorizon
Jun 27th 2008, 11:31 PM
Jesus certainly did not have to teach Jews about the sabbath. Their saturday is named 'shabbat'. It would be like someone in America teaching you to celebreate the 4th of July. If Jesus repeated a concept that EVERYONE KNEW AND OBSERVED, it would sound ridiculous. Shabbat is a given in Jewish culture, and that includes the culture our Messiah lived in.


No Jesus didn’t but Moses certainly did have to teach them to keep that day holy because they did not have a clue. Why were they clueless – because the Sabbath was not given to them or any other people prior to the exodus from Egypt – the Sabbath was not binding on any people other that the Hebrew nation and to them only AFTER they left their bondage. It is not binding as a matter of law to Christians today under the Law of Christ.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 27th 2008, 11:37 PM
We've had this dance before losthorizon so I think I'll get off this merry-go-round now before it starts. ;) For all who wish to look to the scripture, as the OP points out, God sanctified (set apart) the 7th day from the very start. I have followed as the Holy Spirit has led me and I advise any believer to do the same. Take that whatever way you wish.

God Bless!

losthorizon
Jun 28th 2008, 12:05 AM
We've had this dance before losthorizon so I think I'll get off this merry-go-round now before it starts. ;) For all who wish to look to the scripture, as the OP points out, God sanctified (set apart) the 7th day from the very start. I have followed as the Holy Spirit has led me and I advise any believer to do the same. Take that whatever way you wish.

God Bless!
I take it as a call from you to go back under the shadows of Judaism. ;) God did not give the commandment to keep that day holy to anyone people other than the Hebrew nation and that commandment was nailed to His cross as He cried out - "It is finished!"

Naphal
Jun 28th 2008, 07:39 AM
Actually, in more than one place scripture says that He created it FOR man (not Himself).

Yes I know but the first Sabbath wasn't for man, it was for God to rest from his works!


Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

diffangle
Jun 28th 2008, 12:52 PM
[quote=losthorizon;1688652] God did not give the commandment to keep that day holy to anyone people other than the Hebrew nation
My Scriptures show otherwise...

Num 15:16 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Num&c=15&v=16&t=KJV#16)One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.


and that commandment was nailed to His cross as He cried out - "It is finished!"
Where do the Scriptures say that He nailed YHWHs Commandments to the cross?

losthorizon
Jun 28th 2008, 01:18 PM
[quote]
My Scriptures show otherwise...

Num 15:16 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Num&c=15&v=16&t=KJV#16)One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.


Number 15:16 is hardly an example of the Sabbath being required of ALL people for ALL time. The invitation in this passage is addressed to the sojourning stranger living among the Jews to become proselytes and worshippers of the true God - "salvation is of the Jew".
"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for Salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22).At the cross the wall that separated Jew and Gentile was torn down by Christ’s death - both are now one “in Christ Jesus” - both now live under the Law of Christ and that law does not include the obligation to keep the seventh day as a matter of law.
"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us." Eph. 2:14

Where do the Scriptures say that He nailed YHWHs Commandments to the cross?
"…he canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross" (Col. 2:14).

diffangle
Jun 28th 2008, 01:40 PM
Number 15:16 is hardly an example of the Sabbath being required of ALL people for ALL time. The invitation in this passage is addressed to the sojourning stranger living among the Jews to become proselytes and worshippers of the true God - "salvation is of the Jew".

"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for Salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22).
At the cross the wall that separated Jew and Gentile was torn down by Christ’s death - both are now one “in Christ Jesus” - both now live under the Law of Christ and that law does not include the obligation to keep the seventh day as a matter of law.

"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us." Eph. 2:14

It shows that there is one law for Jew and gentile when it comes to obeying Him. Just as the verses in Rev. shows...

Rev 14:12 (http://cf.blb.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=14&v=12&t=KJV#12)Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 (http://cf.blb.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=22&v=14&t=KJV#14)Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.



"…he canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross" (Col. 2:14).

Here's that verse more accurately rendered...

Col 2:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&verse=14&version=kjv#14)Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross;

I do not see the word Law or Feasts in that verse.