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Jollyrogers
Jun 18th 2008, 06:50 PM
Where in the bible does it say that the Holy spirit will always be a gentleman. I have been watching some stuff on youtube that is claiming to be of the spirit but I have a problem with the violence. I am looking for scriputre on how the spirit will act

ChristopherE
Jun 18th 2008, 07:11 PM
I don't know that you'll find it say that exactly, but maybe this will help...

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

A list of what would grieve the spirit versus how you should act. Now I think there's room for passion against sin (Jesus expelling the money changers and sellers from the temple for example) but not violence as you suggest you're seeing.

jayne
Jun 18th 2008, 07:13 PM
Where in the bible does it say that the Holy spirit will always be a gentleman. I have been watching some stuff on youtube that is claiming to be of the spirit but I have a problem with the violence. I am looking for scriputre on how the spirit will act

I'm not sure what you are watching, but the evidence that one is filled or guided by the Holy Spirit is in the fruit that one bears under His conviction, counsel, guidance, and leadership.

Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Galatians 5:22-23

Is what you are watching an example of His drawing people to the likeness of Christ?

By the way, I LOVE Calvin and Hobbes.

I'll leave you with a couple of my favorite quotes of theirs.

.................................................. ...............................................

"It's pyschosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get the saw."

"What's the point of wearing rocket ship underwear if no one asks to see them?"

Calvin: "Hobbes, I was thinking....."
Hobbes: "On a weekend?!?!?!?"
Calvin: "Trust me, it wasn't on purpose."

HisLeast
Jun 18th 2008, 07:13 PM
Where in the bible does it say that the Holy spirit will always be a gentleman. I have been watching some stuff on youtube that is claiming to be of the spirit but I have a problem with the violence. I am looking for scriputre on how the spirit will act

Ugh... so many messengers out there claiming to be "of the spirit". The wave the words around like its got some magic voodoo power to make it true. I've learned to translate it as "I feel very strongly about this" and leave it at that. As for what is genuinely "of the spirit"... I guess I look for guidance from those who have the knack for discernment.

Jollyrogers
Jun 18th 2008, 07:45 PM
I am studying the Holy spirit in responce to this Lakeland deal. This board has made a decision that they do not want open discussions of this on here so I am not looking for that. I am looking for scriptures that tells how the holy spirit will aproach us, act, glorify, and what fruits he will show. I know some but I need scripture refrences

I love Calvin too. You have this website (Calvin & Hobbs related)

http://www.marcellosendos.ch/comics/ch/index.html

jayne
Jun 18th 2008, 08:31 PM
Here's some scripture pertaining to the purposes of the Holy Spirit.

http://www.truthandgrace.com/Spirit.htm

.................................................. ................

"If you convince me, and I convince you....won't there still be two points of view? - Vachel Lindsey

Firefighter
Jun 18th 2008, 09:20 PM
That saying is derived from 1 Corinthians 14..

1Co 14:32-33 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

By the Spirit being subject to the prophets, it is saying that the Holy Spirit will not "make" someone do something that they canot control as control was obviously a problem at Corinth.

ShirleyFord
Jun 18th 2008, 10:36 PM
Where in the bible does it say that the Holy spirit will always be a gentleman. I have been watching some stuff on youtube that is claiming to be of the spirit but I have a problem with the violence. I am looking for scriputre on how the spirit will act

I suppose people over the years have formed the saying that the Holy Spirit is a gentlement from what Paul told the Church at Corinth, "Let all things be done decently and in order." (1 Corinthians 14:40)

As we read through the Bible and especially over in the NT especially during Jesus's earthly ministry and throughout the book of Acts, we find that all of the acts of the Holy Spirit done through Jesus, His Apostles, the Apostle Paul and His co-laborers, and when we find the rest of the Church ministring through the Holy Spirit was ordered and with the sole purpose of revealing Jesus to the lost to bring glory to our dear precious Savior.

The Holy Spirit is a gentleman in that we never see Him taking control of someone's mind and body making them act any differently than they would have in their right mind.

Shirley

Jubal
Jun 19th 2008, 03:33 AM
Here is Jesus talking about the Holy Spirit:

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

-John chapter 14

My heart's Desire
Jun 19th 2008, 06:08 AM
This is my OPINION. The Holy Spirit will never act contrary to what you know of the Lord Jesus and the Father. Something to think on.
The Holy Spirit also guides into all truth, He doesn't speak on His own initiative, but He will speak and disclose what is to come. He will glorify the Lord Jesus. He also is the Helper, and convicts the world (not believers) concerning sin and righteousness and judgment.
John 16 8-15

9Marksfan
Jun 19th 2008, 09:31 AM
This is my OPINION. The Holy Spirit will never act contrary to what you know of the Lord Jesus and the Father. Something to think on.
The Holy Spirit also guides into all truth, He doesn't speak on His own initiative, but He will speak and disclose what is to come. He will glorify the Lord Jesus. He also is the Helper, and convicts the world (not believers) concerning sin and righteousness and judgment.
John 16 8-15

But aren't believers convicted of the sin that remains by the Spirit (esp under the preaching of the word) as part of putting to death the flesh (mortification) and putting on Christ (sanctification)?

My heart's Desire
Jun 19th 2008, 09:41 PM
But aren't believers convicted of the sin that remains by the Spirit (esp under the preaching of the word) as part of putting to death the flesh (mortification) and putting on Christ (sanctification)?
Yes, 9Marksfan but in this particuliar verse, I believe this is what the Spirit does as He woes the unbeliever. Are we the World? It is said that we are in the world but not of it. Yes, of course, the Holy Spirit will still convict sin wherever it is found. And as far as judgement, I as a Christian have already been judged and justified at the Cross. Regardless, without my comments the verse still applies to the character or work of the Holy Spirit, which was my point. The verse itself said the world, I didn't. Wow! another good subject. The world as related to the Christian!

9Marksfan
Jun 20th 2008, 12:15 AM
Yes, 9Marksfan but in this particuliar verse, I believe this is what the Spirit does as He woes the unbeliever. Are we the World? It is said that we are in the world but not of it. Yes, of course, the Holy Spirit will still convict sin wherever it is found. And as far as judgement, I as a Christian have already been judged and justified at the Cross. Regardless, without my comments the verse still applies to the character or work of the Holy Spirit, which was my point. The verse itself said the world, I didn't. Wow! another good subject. The world as related to the Christian!

Of course it is speaking of the Spirit's convicting ministry towards unbelievers - but your post implied that he doesn't have a ministry of that sort with believers.

My heart's Desire
Jun 20th 2008, 03:21 AM
Of course it is speaking of the Spirit's convicting ministry towards unbelievers - but your post implied that he doesn't have a ministry of that sort with believers.No, it said world so I implied that it spoke of the world and those who don't believe in Him, unbelievers, which it says in verse 9. Sorry about that. I'm just too used to reading Scripture in Context. And in this context I believe it to be to the world and unbelievers. Their sin, because they don't believe in Him, Righteousness because Jesus is leaving and their judgement because they are of the world and the ruler of this world has already been judged. Regardless, it shows the work of the Holy Spirit.

9Marksfan
Jun 20th 2008, 01:55 PM
No, it said world so I implied that it spoke of the world and those who don't believe in Him, unbelievers, which it says in verse 9. Sorry about that. I'm just too used to reading Scripture in Context. And in this context I believe it to be to the world and unbelievers.

Agreed.


Their sin, because they don't believe in Him,

Partly true - but they were sinners before they heard of him - right? And they will die in their SINS if they don't repent, right?


Righteousness because Jesus is leaving

:confused I'd always thought that was in contrast to their sin - God's perfect righteousness - His holy character - which they wholesale LACK but which they NEED if they are to be right with God (guess who can give it to them?!?)


and their judgement because they are of the world and the ruler of this world has already been judged.

Hmm - I'd always understood it to mean that THEIR judgement is coming - unless they repent!


Regardless, it shows the work of the Holy Spirit.

Of course - but I'm struggling to follow your understanding of what exactly that work is......

RabbiKnife
Jun 20th 2008, 02:00 PM
No where does Scripture say that "the Holy Spirit is a gentleman."

Neither does it say that the Holy Spirit does things violently or by force.

Never found a case in which the Holy Spirit raped anyone.

Scripture is clear that God has created us with a free will to choose to love and follow Him or not.

9Marksfan
Jun 20th 2008, 04:06 PM
Scripture is clear that God has created us with a free will to choose to love and follow Him or not.

Where does it say that, exactly?

RabbiKnife
Jun 20th 2008, 04:36 PM
Same place that it says that the Godhead is one God in three persons. Not a particular verse, but within the context of the entirety of Scriputure.

Part of our being created "imago dei" is that we are created with free will. Numerous passages indicate that man is free to choose to rebel against or reject God if he chooses...

The first is when God told Adam not to eat of the tree. If Adam had no free will, then the prohibition was pointless.

Man is not a robot.

Jubal
Jun 20th 2008, 08:22 PM
Never found a case in which the Holy Spirit raped anyone.
No kidding? Could you please refrain from such harsh language?

daughter
Jun 20th 2008, 08:31 PM
Many great Christian theologians have used similar language. For example, John Donne, writing in a poem about how he finds it impossible to obey God always... he says that he will "never be chaste, unless thou ravish me."

Harsh language is sometimes required. Paul uses very harsh language (including a word which can be translated as "sh.t"). But to counter the previous poster, one could argue that Paul had very little choice about receiving the Holy Spirit on the road to Damascus.

RabbiKnife
Jun 20th 2008, 08:32 PM
Harsh?

I have heard -- in person -- statements from the pulpit by supposed Christian ministers -- addressed to those who "refused the baptism of the Holy Ghost and refused to speak in tongues because of stubbornness and religious spirits of pride"-- that said that the Holy Ghost was not a gentleman and that if "He wanted you, He could take you like a woman being raped, so it was better to submit to the Holy Ghost."

I think it is a horrible statement and certainly not consistent with any kind of Biblical world view, but that doesn't not mean that it is not a view held by at least some who purport to speak for God.

RabbiKnife
Jun 20th 2008, 08:34 PM
Many great Christian theologians have used similar language. For example, John Donne, writing in a poem about how he finds it impossible to obey God always... he says that he will "never be chaste, unless thou ravish me."

Harsh language is sometimes required. Paul uses very harsh language (including a word which can be translated as "sh.t"). But to counter the previous poster, one could argue that Paul had very little choice about receiving the Holy Spirit on the road to Damascus.

Skubalon. One of my favorite words. ;)

Paul certainly had a choice on the Damascus road. He could accept the falacy that he had created in his own mind or go to hell. He was given a very clear and personal presentation of the Gospel, and he chose to accept. Good plan, by the way.

:)

daughter
Jun 20th 2008, 08:37 PM
I agree with you there Rabbiknife. I don't understand how they can seperate salvation itself and imply that there are two salvations, one when you repent, surrender your rebel self to Jesus, and be saved... and apparently another where you have to speak in tongues, or you're not really saved?

I may misunderstand the theology here, and I'm not saying that tongues, or whatever, doesn't exist... but I don't see why the Holy Spirit would want to force someone to do that. Seems to me these pastors are bullies, and rather pharisitical about it. (If you don't speak in tongues you don't have the Holy Spirit, and you're not saved... eh? Where does that come from?)

daughter
Jun 20th 2008, 08:39 PM
Skubalon. One of my favorite words.
I must be doing something right... my son yells "skubalon!" when he drops something on his toe. :lol:

RabbiKnife
Jun 20th 2008, 08:42 PM
It arises from a historical Oneness Pentecostal movement that began in the US in around 1900 in the Kansas City area (I think that's where it was), then moved on to California and the Azusa movement. Most Oneness Pentecostals and their offspring believe that the Book of Acts is the lens through which all the rest of Scripture is to be interpreted.


It is just not good theology.

daughter
Jun 20th 2008, 08:48 PM
No. They are gazing at Pentecost, not at Calvary. Scripture should be interpreted through Christ. The Holy Spirit Himself doesn't bring attention to Himself. He reminds people of everything that Christ said, and interprets Scripture. He's an instructor, and a comforter. NOT a self aggrandiser.

Unlike a lot of pastors.

My heart's Desire
Jun 21st 2008, 03:33 AM
Agreed.



Partly true - but they were sinners before they heard of him - right? And they will die in their SINS if they don't repent, right?



:confused I'd always thought that was in contrast to their sin - God's perfect righteousness - His holy character - which they wholesale LACK but which they NEED if they are to be right with God (guess who can give it to them?!?)



Hmm - I'd always understood it to mean that THEIR judgement is coming - unless they repent!



Of course - but I'm struggling to follow your understanding of what exactly that work is......\They will die in their sins if they don't believe.
As far as the verse that continues...and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
Reminds me of the verse. John 8:21 when He told the Jews this;
Then He said again to them, "I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin where I am going, you cannot come?"
24. There I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.

Anyway, the Holy Spirit convicts the world concerning sin and righeousness and judgement.
Judgement because in verse 11, the ruler of this world has been judged.
Work? The work of the Holy Spirit is to convict of sin, righteousness and judgement. So now you're confusing me. Don't you see these things as a work of the Holy Spirit?

ProjectPeter
Jun 21st 2008, 04:46 PM
Okay guys... let's refrain from making this a thread about freewill vs. predestination. Surely we can do that... I just know it! :)

ProDeo
Jun 21st 2008, 05:19 PM
Paul certainly had a choice on the Damascus road. He could accept the falacy that he had created in his own mind or go to hell. He was given a very clear and personal presentation of the Gospel, and he chose to accept. Good plan, by the way. :)

I wonder if Paul had a choice, what choice does a person have being overwhelmed by the Power of God? Do we really have a choice then? I know I had not (maybe hardly) and I am not even a Calvinist ;)

Ed

My heart's Desire
Jun 22nd 2008, 12:32 AM
Okay guys... let's refrain from making this a thread about freewill vs. predestination. Surely we can do that... I just know it! :)I didn't do it this time, I promise! :saint:

FollowTheBanner
Jun 22nd 2008, 12:38 AM
God is one essence expressed in three Persons. So if you want to look at the attributes of the Holy Spirit, look for the attributes of the Father and the Son. Just as the Son is compassionate and gentle, so too is the Holy Spirit compassionate and gentle. Just as the Father is patient, so too is the Holy Spirit patient.

9Marksfan
Jun 22nd 2008, 03:58 PM
Same place that it says that the Godhead is one God in three persons. Not a particular verse, but within the context of the entirety of Scriputure.

Part of our being created "imago dei" is that we are created with free will. Numerous passages indicate that man is free to choose to rebel against or reject God if he chooses...

Agreed - we're free to sin in any range of ways - but we're not free to come back to God - because we don't want to.


The first is when God told Adam not to eat of the tree. If Adam had no free will, then the prohibition was pointless.

Sure, ADAM had free will - but then there was the curse on all humanity - and the fast of original sin - do you believe in that?


Man is not a robot.

Never said he was - he's a free moral agent but the problem is he's spiritually dead and needs to be made alive in Christ before he can do anything godward.....

daughter
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:01 PM
Okay guys... let's refrain from making this a thread about freewill vs. predestination. Surely we can do that... I just know it! :)
I'm sorry... it was me! I couldn't help myself... :P