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cwb
Jun 21st 2008, 07:41 PM
As many of you here know I use to be a pre-trib, pre-mill. I have changed my position to post-trib, a-mill.

Reason #1 : II peter 3:10 says


But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


The only way I see to reconcile this verse with the pre-mill position is to say that the "day of the lord" includes the thousand years. The problem I see with that is as a pre-miller, I always saw the millenium as something positive. From studying the "day of the Lord" and all the passages involving the day of the Lord, I can not see the day of the Lord as being something positive nor something I want to be involved in. Therefore I have trouble reconciling II peter 3:10 with being pre-mill.

Reason #2 - A few times on this forum I have asked the question, "For post -tribbers, what is the purpose of the rapture, if we are going to just go up there and come right back down to earth? Why go up there if we are just going to come right back down?" I did not feel that any of the answers given to that question was satisfactory. What I feel the correct answer to that question is that we never come back to this earth after we are raptured. I believe that the new heavens and earth is already created and when we are raptured from this earth, we go directly there without ever coming back to this earth. After we are raptured, the current heaven and earth is completely burned up never to be seen again.

In II cor. 12:2-4, the apostle Paul saw a vision of a person being raptured:


I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


In Paul's vision, this person was "harpazo" or caught up directly to the new heaven and earth. This causes me to think that when we are raptured, we meet the lord in the air and go directly to the new heaven and earth (which God has already created in preparation for us).


Something I still strongly disagree with many (not all) a-millers on is concerning the future tribulation. I still believe there will be a future tribulation and a "man of sin" who will try to play God. Also, something I will not do after changing my position from pre-trib, is disrepect my brothers and sisters who are still pre-trib and view those believers as second class Christians as many people who are not pre-trib do. I know that pre-trib believers get their viewpoint from how they interpret scripture so to say that pre-tribbers do not get their viewpoint from scripture is pure nonsense. I just see it a little differently at this point and time.

All right, I am ready rebuttals from all sides. Slam me. Shoot me. (that's symbolic. no one knows where I live. :lol:)

Firstfruits
Jun 21st 2008, 08:01 PM
As many of you here know I use to be a pre-trib, pre-mill. I have changed my position to post-trib, a-mill.

Reason #1 : II peter 3:10 says


The only way I see to reconcile this verse with the pre-mill position is to say that the "day of the lord" includes the thousand years. The problem I see with that is as a pre-miller, I always saw the millenium as something positive. From studying the "day of the Lord" and all the passages involving the day of the Lord, I can not see the day of the Lord as being something positive nor something I want to be involved in. Therefore I have trouble reconciling II peter 3:10 with being pre-mill.

Reason #2 - A few times on this forum I have asked the question, "For post -tribbers, what is the purpose of the rapture, if we are going to just go up there and come right back down to earth? Why go up there if we are just going to come right back down?" I did not feel that any of the answers given to that question was satisfactory. What I feel the correct answer to that question is that we never come back to this earth after we are raptured. I believe that the new heavens and earth is already created and when we are raptured from this earth, we go directly there without ever coming back to this earth. After we are raptured, the current heaven and earth is completely burned up never to be seen again.

In II cor. 12:2-4, the apostle Paul saw a vision of a person being raptured:


In Paul's vision, this person was "harpazo" or caught up directly to the new heaven and earth. This causes me to think that when we are raptured, we meet the lord in the air and go directly to the new heaven and earth (which God has already created in preparation for us).


Something I still strongly disagree with many (not all) a-millers on is concerning the future tribulation. I still believe there will be a future tribulation and a "man of sin" who will try to play God. Also, something I will not do after changing my position from pre-trib, is disrepect my brothers and sisters who are still pre-trib and view those believers as second class Christians as many people who are not pre-trib do. I know that pre-trib believers get their viewpoint from how they interpret scripture so to say that pre-tribbers do not get their viewpoint from scripture is pure nonsense. I just see it a little differently at this point and time.

All right, I am ready rebuttals from all sides. Slam me. Shoot me. (that's symbolic. no one knows where I live. :lol:)

Hi CBW,

This is in no way a rebuttle, just a couple of scriptures to hopefully help.

Rev 20:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 22:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Whenever you believe is the time for the dead to be judged, then that is what applies to what Jesus is reffering to. According to Revelation this takes place after the millenium is complete.

I hope as I have said that this will be helpful.

Firstfruits

ShirleyFord
Jun 21st 2008, 08:49 PM
As many of you here know I use to be a pre-trib, pre-mill. I have changed my position to post-trib, a-mill.

Reason #1 : II peter 3:10 says


The only way I see to reconcile this verse with the pre-mill position is to say that the "day of the lord" includes the thousand years. The problem I see with that is as a pre-miller, I always saw the millenium as something positive. From studying the "day of the Lord" and all the passages involving the day of the Lord, I can not see the day of the Lord as being something positive nor something I want to be involved in. Therefore I have trouble reconciling II peter 3:10 with being pre-mill.

Reason #2 - A few times on this forum I have asked the question, "For post -tribbers, what is the purpose of the rapture, if we are going to just go up there and come right back down to earth? Why go up there if we are just going to come right back down?" I did not feel that any of the answers given to that question was satisfactory. What I feel the correct answer to that question is that we never come back to this earth after we are raptured. I believe that the new heavens and earth is already created and when we are raptured from this earth, we go directly there without ever coming back to this earth. After we are raptured, the current heaven and earth is completely burned up never to be seen again.

In II cor. 12:2-4, the apostle Paul saw a vision of a person being raptured:


In Paul's vision, this person was "harpazo" or caught up directly to the new heaven and earth. This causes me to think that when we are raptured, we meet the lord in the air and go directly to the new heaven and earth (which God has already created in preparation for us).


Something I still strongly disagree with many (not all) a-millers on is concerning the future tribulation. I still believe there will be a future tribulation and a "man of sin" who will try to play God. Also, something I will not do after changing my position from pre-trib, is disrepect my brothers and sisters who are still pre-trib and view those believers as second class Christians as many people who are not pre-trib do. I know that pre-trib believers get their viewpoint from how they interpret scripture so to say that pre-tribbers do not get their viewpoint from scripture is pure nonsense. I just see it a little differently at this point and time.

All right, I am ready rebuttals from all sides. Slam me. Shoot me. (that's symbolic. no one knows where I live. :lol:)

Congratulations CWB!

I know that you have not reached this decision over night. I know how much time I spent with the Lord in prayer as I looked to His Holy Spirit to show me in His word the absolute truth about the endtimes and His Return.

I've thoroughly enjoyed our discussions with you here over the years while you were a strong and passionate pretrib/premil while I was post-trib/amil. But regardless of how much you disagreed with me, you always have shown me the greatest respect as your sister in Christ and never attacking me personally while at the same time being bold to discuss your views with the Scriptures that you believed supported those views. (Our precious QD is the same:hug:)

So I know that to openly declare this is something that you have put a lot of thought into and I believe led by the Lord to post it here.

I certainly agree with you brother about disrespecting anyone who does not hold to our particular view. We are to love one another as Jesus commanded us to do regardless of our endtime view. The important thing is that all pretrib/premil, post-trib/premil and post-trib/amil along with partial-pretists are all looking upward for our Blessed Hope when He splits that eastern sky and we will be united spiritually and physically with our Precious Lord for all eternity.

Love you and appreciate you dear brother! :hug:

Cyberseeker
Jun 21st 2008, 10:09 PM
Your frankness is impressive. :o Also, you have given three well thought out, Biblical reasons why.


All right, I am ready rebuttals from all sides. Slam me. Shoot me. (that's symbolic. no one knows where I live. :lol:)

None from me cwb. In fact I probably have to apologise for the last time I threw a rock through one of your windows. Sorry.

Forgiven Alaskan
Jun 21st 2008, 10:32 PM
Hi CBW,

This is in no way a rebuttle, just a couple of scriptures to hopefully help.

Rev 20:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 22:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Whenever you believe is the time for the dead to be judged, then that is what applies to what Jesus is reffering to. According to Revelation this takes place after the millenium is complete.

I hope as I have said that this will be helpful.

Firstfruits

That is what it seems to me too.

cwb
Jun 21st 2008, 11:42 PM
Your frankness is impressive. :o Also, you have given three well thought out, Biblical reasons why.



None from me cwb. In fact I probably have to apologise for the last time I threw a rock through one of your windows. Sorry.

I probably threw a few rocks myself and apololgise to you as well. Probably a good idea to endeavor to not throw rocks - too much glass in God's house.

cwb
Jun 21st 2008, 11:53 PM
Congratulations CWB!

I know that you have not reached this decision over night. I know how much time I spent with the Lord in prayer as I looked to His Holy Spirit to show me in His word the absolute truth about the endtimes and His Return.

I've thoroughly enjoyed our discussions with you here over the years while you were a strong and passionate pretrib/premil while I was post-trib/amil. But regardless of how much you disagreed with me, you always have shown me the greatest respect as your sister in Christ and never attacking me personally while at the same time being bold to discuss your views with the Scriptures that you believed supported those views. (Our precious QD is the same:hug:)

So I know that to openly declare this is something that you have put a lot of thought into and I believe led by the Lord to post it here.

I certainly agree with you brother about disrespecting anyone who does not hold to our particular view. We are to love one another as Jesus commanded us to do regardless of our endtime view. The important thing is that all pretrib/premil, post-trib/premil and post-trib/amil along with partial-pretists are all looking upward for our Blessed Hope when He splits that eastern sky and we will be united spiritually and physically with our Precious Lord for all eternity.

Love you and appreciate you dear brother! :hug:

Thanks for the kind words, Shirley. I agree with you that the most important thing is that we keep looking upward for our blessed hope. Keeping that hope strong in our hearts for when we will be united with our Lord and all our brothers and sisters in Christ is the anchor of our souls.

Heb. 6:18 - 19


That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

Diggindeeper
Jun 22nd 2008, 12:25 AM
I agree with Shirley that I KNOW you have put a lot of study time and prayer time into this and I also know this is not an easy decision! I recall when I came to this conclusion, the acceptance literally made me sick. That is at first, it made me sick. It seemed to me that I was upset with myself, that I had not seen sooner. And at first, this did not seem as soothing--but that was only at first.


Now, you will see that scriptures all through the Bible will begin to go together, and form a beautiful picture.

You know, I remember the first inkling that I had about pre-trib being wrong. It was when I was again reading in Revelations 13. (I now refer to this chapter as "the mark of the beast chapter.)

In verses 3-7, where it says:

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

I kept being drawn back to verse 7, and was wondering, "How could he make war with the saints, if they have already been raptured away?"


Then I kept noticing that NOWHERE did Christ Jesus EVER mention one thing that represented a rapture. I searched all over, looking into what Jesus had said. I focused on Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 17, Luke 21....reading them over and over...but not one mention had Jesus made about a rapture, or that people would wonder where the saints went. No mention at all. Surely, it seemed to me, he would have told us something. But he did not. Everything else he laid out, one thing at a time.

This realization finally totally convinced me that I had to change my view. But it was not an easy change, for me anyway. It took a LOT of study and restudy.

cwb
Jun 22nd 2008, 01:21 AM
I agree with Shirley that I KNOW you have put a lot of study time and prayer time into this and I also know this is not an easy decision! I recall when I came to this conclusion, the acceptance literally made me sick. That is at first, it made me sick. It seemed to me that I was upset with myself, that I had not seen sooner. And at first, this did not seem as soothing--but that was only at first.


Now, you will see that scriptures all through the Bible will begin to go together, and form a beautiful picture.

You know, I remember the first inkling that I had about pre-trib being wrong. It was when I was again reading in Revelations 13. (I now refer to this chapter as "the mark of the beast chapter.)

In verses 3-7, where it says:

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

I kept being drawn back to verse 7, and was wondering, "How could he make war with the saints, if they have already been raptured away?"


Then I kept noticing that NOWHERE did Christ Jesus EVER mention one thing that represented a rapture. I searched all over, looking into what Jesus had said. I focused on Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 17, Luke 21....reading them over and over...but not one mention had Jesus made about a rapture, or that people would wonder where the saints went. No mention at all. Surely, it seemed to me, he would have told us something. But he did not. Everything else he laid out, one thing at a time.

This realization finally totally convinced me that I had to change my view. But it was not an easy change, for me anyway. It took a LOT of study and restudy.


Hi diggindeeper,
I still do believe there will be a rapture (when the church is taken off this earth) though. I have not changed my view as to whether there will be a rapture. I believe that I thess 4 says there will be a rapture. I have just changed my view as to the timing of when this takes place, from pre-trib to post trib.

I Thess 4:17


Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


The word "rapture" is just another word for "caught up". I still believe as I did before that I Thess 4:17 is going to happen and the church will be taken off this earth. I just see this as happening post trib now as opposed to pre-trib.

yoSAMite
Jun 22nd 2008, 02:58 AM
Do we get anything in return,
a future draft choice or at least some cash? :blushhap:

cwb
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:23 AM
Do we get anything in return,
a future draft choice or at least some cash? :blushhap:

I'm not quite following you. In return for what?

wpm
Jun 22nd 2008, 04:24 AM
Hi diggindeeper,
I still do believe there will be a rapture (when the church is taken off this earth) though. I have not changed my view as to whether there will be a rapture. I believe that I thess 4 says there will be a rapture. I have just changed my view as to the timing of when this takes place, from pre-trib to post trib.

I Thess 4:17


The word "rapture" is just another word for "caught up". I still believe as I did before that I Thess 4:17 is going to happen and the church will be taken off this earth. I just see this as happening post trib now as opposed to pre-trib.

I admire your courage. It isn't easy to change positions. I too moved from Pretrib to Premil albeit slowly and painfully. I found Premil harder to give up than Pretrib.

Amils believe in the catching away. They shy away from the word 'rapture' only because it is associated with the Pretrib rapture belief of 2 future comings. Anyway, is is safer to use scriptural terminologies. :pp

Paul

yoSAMite
Jun 22nd 2008, 06:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khoolaid http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1680764#post1680764)
Do we get anything in return,
a future draft choice or at least some cash? :blushhap:

I'm not quite following you. In return for what?
It's a sports analogy and obviously a poor attempt at a joke. I do wish you the best in your growth.

ross3421
Jun 22nd 2008, 07:04 AM
As many of you here know I use to be a pre-trib, pre-mill. I have changed my position to post-trib, a-mill.

Reason #1 : II peter 3:10 says


The only way I see to reconcile this verse with the pre-mill position is to say that the "day of the lord" includes the thousand years. The problem I see with that is as a pre-miller, I always saw the millenium as something positive. From studying the "day of the Lord" and all the passages involving the day of the Lord, I can not see the day of the Lord as being something positive nor something I want to be involved in


Amen.



Something I still strongly disagree with many (not all) a-millers on is concerning the future tribulation. I still believe there will be a future tribulation and a "man of sin" who will try to play God.


I agree..... the error A-mills make is that they still see a thousand year period pertaining to this relm which we currently live. As you probably know I see this time period as metaphorically and represeting timelessness outside of thie relm. Look at it this way and it should clear up any confusion.

I still disagree on any rapture pre or post. We all die and the only thing being raptures is our DEAD bodies from the grave.

Mark

cwb
Jun 22nd 2008, 07:34 AM
Amen.





I agree..... the error A-mills make is that they still see a thousand year period pertaining to this relm which we currently live. As you probably know I see this time period as metaphorically and represeting timelessness outside of thie relm. Look at it this way and it should clear up any confusion.



I did not know that you saw it this way but am intrigued by what you wrote here. I am not sure I fully understand what you are saying so am wondering if you could explain a little further. I was also wondering what you meant by "timelessness" since Rev 20 seems to me to indicate that there will be a time when the 1000 years have expired.

cwb
Jun 22nd 2008, 07:39 AM
It's a sports analogy

O.K. I got it now.



and obviously a poor attempt at a joke.


most likely me being slow.



I do wish you the best in your growth.


Thanks, I apreciate that.

cwb
Jun 22nd 2008, 02:02 PM
I admire your courage. It isn't easy to change positions. I too moved from Pretrib to Premil albeit slowly and painfully. I found Premil harder to give up than Pretrib.



Actually I see this position as even more comforting . Don't have to wait another 1003 1/2 years to get to our final destination and home - the new heavens and earth.

wpm
Jun 22nd 2008, 08:12 PM
Actually I see this position as even more comforting . Don't have to wait another 1003 1/2 years to get to our final destination and home - the new heavens and earth.

It is a very simple and tidy belief - when He comes that is it.

Paul

John146
Jun 23rd 2008, 02:40 PM
As many of you here know I use to be a pre-trib, pre-mill. I have changed my position to post-trib, a-mill.

Well, I'm glad to see this. You were one of the most staunch defenders of pre-trib on this board, so I'd be lying if I said I expected this to happen. I can see that you came to this conclusion purely due to studying the scripture for yourself, so that's a good thing.



Reason #1 : II peter 3:10 says

The only way I see to reconcile this verse with the pre-mill position is to say that the "day of the lord" includes the thousand years. The problem I see with that is as a pre-miller, I always saw the millenium as something positive. From studying the "day of the Lord" and all the passages involving the day of the Lord, I can not see the day of the Lord as being something positive nor something I want to be involved in. Therefore I have trouble reconciling II peter 3:10 with being pre-mill.

Agree. I just can't see how anyone can stretch the day of the Lord to include the entire supposed future thousand years as well as Satan's little season.



Reason #2 - A few times on this forum I have asked the question, "For post -tribbers, what is the purpose of the rapture, if we are going to just go up there and come right back down to earth? Why go up there if we are just going to come right back down?" I did not feel that any of the answers given to that question was satisfactory. What I feel the correct answer to that question is that we never come back to this earth after we are raptured. I believe that the new heavens and earth is already created and when we are raptured from this earth, we go directly there without ever coming back to this earth. After we are raptured, the current heaven and earth is completely burned up never to be seen again.

In II cor. 12:2-4, the apostle Paul saw a vision of a person being raptured:


In Paul's vision, this person was "harpazo" or caught up directly to the new heaven and earth. This causes me to think that when we are raptured, we meet the lord in the air and go directly to the new heaven and earth (which God has already created in preparation for us).

That's a valid possibility. I personally see it as the current heavens and earth being made new by the fire. So, it actually will be the same heavens and earth made new. Either way, it doesn't make sense for believers to be here while the earth is being burned up. Since passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12 indicate that the burning up of the earth happens when Christ returns, then of course believers will be taken out of the way and then taken to the new earth. Whether it's a completely new earth or this earth made new doesn't really make much of a difference.


Something I still strongly disagree with many (not all) a-millers on is concerning the future tribulation. I still believe there will be a future tribulation and a "man of sin" who will try to play God.

I also believe in a future tribulation (not 7 years, though) and I believe that future tribulation is the same as Satan's little season. I don't believe in an individual Antichrist or man of sin, though. We can't expect to agree on everything, right? ;)



Also, something I will not do after changing my position from pre-trib, is disrepect my brothers and sisters who are still pre-trib and view those believers as second class Christians as many people who are not pre-trib do.

Many post-tribs used to be pre-trib and many amils used to be premil, so I don't think there's as much disrespect going on as you might think. Certainly, we should all respect each other as brothers and sisters in Christ.


I know that pre-trib believers get their viewpoint from how they interpret scripture so to say that pre-tribbers do not get their viewpoint from scripture is pure nonsense. I just see it a little differently at this point and time.

I know of some pre-tribbers who get their viewpoint largely from well known TV evangelists or from the Left Behind books. It's a fact. But this certainly doesn't mean that all or even most pre-tribbers come to their conclusions from those sources.



All right, I am ready rebuttals from all sides. Slam me. Shoot me. (that's symbolic. no one knows where I live. :lol:)

The main thing for anyone to do is to study the scriptures for themselves and ask God for guidance as you study and then see what conclusions you come to. And that's what you did. So, I don't see how anyone can question that.

John146
Jun 23rd 2008, 02:44 PM
I agree..... the error A-mills make is that they still see a thousand year period pertaining to this relm which we currently live. As you probably know I see this time period as metaphorically and represeting timelessness outside of thie relm. Look at it this way and it should clear up any confusion.

How can anyone take what you're saying here seriously when the text clearly indicates that the thousand years has a beginning and an end? Satan is loosed after the thousand years are over. In your view, Satan is loosed after timelessness is over?



I still disagree on any rapture pre or post. We all die and the only thing being raptures is our DEAD bodies from the grave.

So, you don't believe the dead in Christ as well as those who are alive and remain when Christ returns will all be caught up to meet the Lord in the air as 1 Thess 4:16-17 says?

ross3421
Jun 23rd 2008, 08:40 PM
How can anyone take what you're saying here seriously when the text clearly indicates that the thousand years has a beginning and an end? Satan is loosed after the thousand years are over. In your view, Satan is loosed after timelessness is over?


You are focused soley on our relm. There are events ocurring here on earth but also in the heavens. Our earth has time measured, hour, day year ect........Outside of this relm there is no measured time. So events which occur in the heavens cannot be pin pointed to say to last a cetain time period.

So Satan is bound for a period of time which is not measured since it is not in this relm. John uses the phrase "thousand years" as a metaphorical term which does not imply it lasted for this amount of time. Peter uses this phrase in the same sense and where John probably took the term.



So, you don't believe the dead in Christ as well as those who are alive and remain when Christ returns will all be caught up to meet the Lord in the air as 1 Thess 4:16-17 says?

The dead in Christ are now those which are alive and remain after being resurrected........They are one in the same individuals.

Dead in Christ resurrected = the alive and remain


I hope this is not too much for you to comprehend......

Mark

Raybob
Jun 23rd 2008, 10:49 PM
You are focused soley on our relm. There are events ocurring here on earth but also in the heavens. Our earth has time measured, hour, day year ect........Outside of this relm there is no measured time. So events which occur in the heavens cannot be pin pointed to say to last a cetain time period.



Actually, the current heaven is in the exact same time period of this earth as they both melt with fervent heat at the same time. That's why we look forward to the new heaven and the new earth.

2Pe 3:12-13 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Raybob

Saved7
Jun 23rd 2008, 11:22 PM
As many of you here know I use to be a pre-trib, pre-mill. I have changed my position to post-trib, a-mill.

Reason #1 : II peter 3:10 says


The only way I see to reconcile this verse with the pre-mill position is to say that the "day of the lord" includes the thousand years. The problem I see with that is as a pre-miller, I always saw the millenium as something positive. From studying the "day of the Lord" and all the passages involving the day of the Lord, I can not see the day of the Lord as being something positive nor something I want to be involved in. Therefore I have trouble reconciling II peter 3:10 with being pre-mill.

Reason #2 - A few times on this forum I have asked the question, "For post -tribbers, what is the purpose of the rapture, if we are going to just go up there and come right back down to earth? Why go up there if we are just going to come right back down?" I did not feel that any of the answers given to that question was satisfactory. What I feel the correct answer to that question is that we never come back to this earth after we are raptured. I believe that the new heavens and earth is already created and when we are raptured from this earth, we go directly there without ever coming back to this earth. After we are raptured, the current heaven and earth is completely burned up never to be seen again.

In II cor. 12:2-4, the apostle Paul saw a vision of a person being raptured:


In Paul's vision, this person was "harpazo" or caught up directly to the new heaven and earth. This causes me to think that when we are raptured, we meet the lord in the air and go directly to the new heaven and earth (which God has already created in preparation for us).


Something I still strongly disagree with many (not all) a-millers on is concerning the future tribulation. I still believe there will be a future tribulation and a "man of sin" who will try to play God. Also, something I will not do after changing my position from pre-trib, is disrepect my brothers and sisters who are still pre-trib and view those believers as second class Christians as many people who are not pre-trib do. I know that pre-trib believers get their viewpoint from how they interpret scripture so to say that pre-tribbers do not get their viewpoint from scripture is pure nonsense. I just see it a little differently at this point and time.

All right, I am ready rebuttals from all sides. Slam me. Shoot me. (that's symbolic. no one knows where I live. :lol:)


yah, I think I have changed my position as well, I was premill, post trib, but now I THINK I am amil post trib. Still unsure, I am having trouble making heads or tails of certain things in the scripture according to the in the amil doctrine. However, I admit, I do not know this doctrine well at all, in fact, the only thing I know about it is, that it suggests that we are presently living in the millenial reign.:lol:

Saved7
Jun 23rd 2008, 11:31 PM
I still disagree on any rapture pre or post. We all die and the only thing being raptures is our DEAD bodies from the grave.

Mark


Then what of those who are still alive and remain unto the coming of our Lord? Will the living saints just be out of luck?:cool: This is why Paul showed "you a mystery" in corinthians; it is reasonable and logical to assume that there will indeed be some christians who are alive at the returning of our Lord, there are too many christians and the world is a large place, a lot of places for us to hide from any persecutors who would try to kill us.;)

ross3421
Jun 24th 2008, 11:46 AM
Actually, the current heaven is in the exact same time period of this earth as they both melt with fervent heat at the same time. That's why we look forward to the new heaven and the new earth.

2Pe 3:12-13 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Raybob

I agree..... what would preclude this to happen if one relm is measured and the other is not? Could they not still melt at the same time??

ross3421
Jun 24th 2008, 12:14 PM
Then what of those who are still alive and remain unto the coming of our Lord? Will the living saints just be out of luck?:cool: This is why Paul showed "you a mystery" in corinthians; it is reasonable and logical to assume that there will indeed be some christians who are alive at the returning of our Lord, there are too many christians and the world is a large place, a lot of places for us to hide from any persecutors who would try to kill us.;)

The mystery is of the resurrection not rapture. You mention "still" alive which is your own add here......The verse says "are" alive which carries a different meaning on the timing of when someone is alive. Yes we are alive today but the verse is stating that it is when we are alive after being resurrected.

1th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

If you looked only at this verse I could see perhaps alive being as living on the earth though it would make no sense. Paul was speaking the resurrection to this Thessalonians which where concerned about those which have died previously, "would they not too be resurrected? How about them?" Paul had assured them.......

1th 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Now we see the alive and remain AFTER the resurrection. So does the rapture happen after the resurrection as the verse would imply?

1th 4:16and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,

The alive and remain = those dead in Christ resurrected
With them = those which were asleep

We become alive after the resurrection.

1co 15:21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.1co 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romulus
Jun 24th 2008, 02:19 PM
All right, I am ready rebuttals from all sides. Slam me. Shoot me. (that's symbolic. no one knows where I live. :lol:)

No rebuttel here! If you have changed your position on anything, I am sure it took a time of prayer and reflection to change your views. That is how we all should come to our conclusions through spending time with Him. Reading the scriptures is hearing God and He is not done revealing many wonderful things to each of us. Be blessed, God has even more for you.

:pp

Raybob
Jun 24th 2008, 03:05 PM
I agree..... what would preclude this to happen if one relm is measured and the other is not? Could they not still melt at the same time??


I believe that is a BIG "if". Why wouldn't God measure the heavens just as easy as He measures the earth? He did create them both, ya know.;)

Raybob

John146
Jun 24th 2008, 03:28 PM
You are focused soley on our relm. There are events ocurring here on earth but also in the heavens. Our earth has time measured, hour, day year ect........Outside of this relm there is no measured time. So events which occur in the heavens cannot be pin pointed to say to last a cetain time period.

So Satan is bound for a period of time which is not measured since it is not in this relm. John uses the phrase "thousand years" as a metaphorical term which does not imply it lasted for this amount of time. Peter uses this phrase in the same sense and where John probably took the term.

Say what you will, but at least I'm not ignoring the verses that say, "he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled" and "when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison". Sorry, but timelessness is never fulfilled or completed and never expires.


The dead in Christ are now those which are alive and remain after being resurrected........They are one in the same individuals.

Dead in Christ resurrected = the alive and remain

I hope this is not too much for you to comprehend......

Mark

What I comprehend is that you are needlessly complicating clear scripture. It clearly says "the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air". Who is the "them" that those who are alive and remain are caught up together with? The dead in Christ, obviously. The text clearly differentiates between the dead in Christ (group 1) and those who are alive and remain (group 2).

ChristopherE
Jun 24th 2008, 03:49 PM
Actually, the current heaven is in the exact same time period of this earth as they both melt with fervent heat at the same time. That's why we look forward to the new heaven and the new earth.

2Pe 3:12-13 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Raybob

Be careful not to mix up which "heaven/heavens" is being spoke of. There is the spiritual realm we refer to as heaven. Then there is the percievable universe the Bible refers to as "heavens" - the stars, the sky, etc. It's the perceivable universe that will dissolve and be replaced with new heavens and a new earth.

ChristopherE
Jun 24th 2008, 04:05 PM
The mystery is of the resurrection not rapture. You mention "still" alive which is your own add here......The verse says "are" alive which carries a different meaning on the timing of when someone is alive. Yes we are alive today but the verse is stating that it is when we are alive after being resurrected.

1th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

If you looked only at this verse I could see perhaps alive being as living on the earth though it would make no sense. Paul was speaking the resurrection to this Thessalonians which where concerned about those which have died previously, "would they not too be resurrected? How about them?" Paul had assured them.......

1th 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Now we see the alive and remain AFTER the resurrection. So does the rapture happen after the resurrection as the verse would imply?

1th 4:16and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,

The alive and remain = those dead in Christ resurrected
With them = those which were asleep

We become alive after the resurrection.

1co 15:21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.1co 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Not sure where you went with that. Seemed to start out good but got confusing.

Two groups are being discussed and compared.

Those that are asleep or dead in Christ -and- those that are physically alive and living in Christ.

Sorry, your post seemed to shift what one reference meant in one verse to mean something different in a later verse.

The dead in Christ and those that sleep are definately the same group. Maybe you're implying they are different groups. I'm not sure.

Keep in mind you CANNOT be dead in Christ in any manner except for your physical earthly body be dead (waiting for the ressurection), hence a reference to "those that sleep". Paul was actually being more accurate in saying sleep as dead implies permanent while sleep is a temporary state, because those "dead" shall rise again.

cwb
Jun 24th 2008, 06:23 PM
After studying the "day of the Lord" further and some of the scriptures other posters have posted in another thread, I think I may have changed my position to a-mill prematurely. I guess for now I am in the "undecided" column when it comes to the millenium.

ross3421
Jun 24th 2008, 06:29 PM
I believe that is a BIG "if". Why wouldn't God measure the heavens just as easy as He measures the earth? He did create them both, ya know.;)

Raybob

I can't answer that........another verse which may denote time not measured in heaven is John's reference to the space of "about" a half hour. I believe John states this due to time not measured rather than it being 29 or 31 min in duration.

Re 8:1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Mark

ross3421
Jun 24th 2008, 06:54 PM
Say what you will, but at least I'm not ignoring the verses that say, "he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled" and "when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison". Sorry, but timelessness is never fulfilled or completed and never expires.



Time "Chronos" can be fulfilled or expired even if it is not measured.



What I comprehend is that you are needlessly complicating clear scripture. It clearly says "the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air". Who is the "them" that those who are alive and remain are caught up together with? The dead in Christ, obviously. The text clearly differentiates between the dead in Christ (group 1) and those who are alive and remain (group 2).

The dead in Christ which rise BECOME those which are alive and remain.

"the dead in Christ shall rise first"

1co 15:21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
"the alive and remain"

1co 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.



OK. Let's go through this again....slowly.

The whole point of the conversation from Paul is to assure those which he was speaking that they will not be the only ones being resurrected but that their loved ones in the grave will also come with them at this time and will not remain in the grave forever.

1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (includes whom Paul was speaking and himself)

1th 4:17Then we (includes whom Paul was speaking and himself) which are NOW (my add) alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (are those which were in the grave already) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


So both groups are really the dead in Christ and all will be alive and will remain after the resurrection.


Mark

ross3421
Jun 24th 2008, 07:01 PM
Not sure where you went with that. Seemed to start out good but got confusing.

Two groups are being discussed and compared.

Those that are asleep or dead in Christ -and- those that are physically alive and living in Christ.


There is no group mentioned being physically alive...... but alive after being resurrected.



The dead in Christ and those that sleep are definately the same group. Maybe you're implying they are different groups. I'm not sure.



Same group agreed. All become alive after being resurrected and all remain after the wicked destroyed.


See post 34.


Mark

ChristopherE
Jun 24th 2008, 07:47 PM
OK. Let's go through this again....slowly.

The whole point of the conversation from Paul is to assure those which he was speaking that they will not be the only ones being resurrected but that their loved ones in the grave will also come with them at this time and will not remain in the grave forever.

1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (includes whom Paul was speaking and himself)

1th 4:17Then we (includes whom Paul was speaking and himself) which are NOW (my add) alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (are those which were in the grave already) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


So both groups are really the dead in Christ and all will be alive and will remain after the resurrection.


Mark

well at least now I see the twist you are putting on scripture.

you're getting the context of the scripture correct... It was Paul's reassurance that those already physically dead would also be ressurected.

but then you try to lump the comparison into one group. in that case there'd be no reason for the comparison.

It's simply this: Paul's saying group 1 will make it and group 2 will make it.

You want us to believe it says group 1 will make it because group 2 will also be group 1 and the new compiled group 1 will then become a new group 2.

sorry, it's not there

the summation of what Paul said is: if the 2nd coming were to happen now and take those of us practicing a saving faith in Christ, that would not preclude those in the grave - they would first be resurrected for us to meet them.

ross3421
Jun 24th 2008, 08:01 PM
the summation of what Paul said is: if the 2nd coming were to happen now and take those of us practicing a saving faith in Christ, that would not preclude those in the grave - they would first be resurrected for us to meet them.

Are you implying Paul did not know when this event was to take place and that perhaps he thought it could happen anytime????? He states clearly that this was not the case and Christ would not return until he comes as a thief in the night.

1th 5:1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1th 5:2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Paul stating that this will not occur during your life time as even they knew that the day of the lord comes as a thief in the night. When does scriptures states he comes as a thief?

Re 16:15Behold, I come as a thief.

Re 16:17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air;


Furthermore, the dead in Christ must preclude those which are alive and remain.

Mark

retiredsparky
Jun 24th 2008, 08:12 PM
Be careful not to mix up which "heaven/heavens" is being spoke of. There is the spiritual realm we refer to as heaven. Then there is the percievable universe the Bible refers to as "heavens" - the stars, the sky, etc. It's the perceivable universe that will dissolve and be replaced with new heavens and a new earth.
I agree we must be careful not to mix up which heavens are being spoken of. There is also the atmosphre which is refered to as the heavens or heaven. That is most likely the one to "burn up" with fervent heat. http://bibleforums.org/images/icons/icon6.gifIsa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55:10 "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, Isa 55:11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

LaidDownHisLIfe
Jun 24th 2008, 08:41 PM
the best is still to come.
keep searching.
john 5 has got something good, re . the resurection
matt 13 as well. note what Jesus says about the end.
there will be 1 resurection!

John146
Jun 24th 2008, 09:28 PM
Time "Chronos" can be fulfilled or expired even if it is not measured.

What do you base that on? And anyway, the Greek term for the thousand years is chilioi, not chronos. I think you're completely off base on this one.




The dead in Christ which rise BECOME those which are alive and remain.Nowhere does it say that in the text. The text says that the dead in Christ are joined by those who are alive and remain and in no way, shape or form implies that the dead in Christ are one and the same with those who are alive and remain.


"the dead in Christ shall rise first"

1co 15:21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
"the alive and remain"

1co 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


OK. Let's go through this again....slowly.We can take years to go through this if you want, but it's not necessary. I believe you are turning plain scripture into something convoluted.



The whole point of the conversation from Paul is to assure those which he was speaking that they will not be the only ones being resurrected but that their loved ones in the grave will also come with them at this time and will not remain in the grave forever.

1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (includes whom Paul was speaking and himself)

1th 4:17Then we (includes whom Paul was speaking and himself) which are NOW (my add) alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (are those which were in the grave already) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So both groups are really the dead in Christ and all will be alive and will remain after the resurrection. That made no sense whatsoever. He is saying those who are alive and remain ALIVE until the coming of the Lord (this does not include Paul since he is now dead) will join together with all of those who were dead and are resurrected to meet the Lord in the air. This is clear from the text. I doubt you could ever find anyone who agrees with your view on this.

Saved7
Jun 24th 2008, 09:49 PM
The mystery is of the resurrection not rapture. You mention "still" alive which is your own add here......The verse says "are" alive which carries a different meaning on the timing of when someone is alive. Yes we are alive today but the verse is stating that it is when we are alive after being resurrected.

.

ummm, no
notice that he also states that we shall not ALL SLEEP (physical death), but we shall be caught up, in the twinkling of an eye, we shall be changed, for this corruptible must put on incorruptible.

And he was not revealing the mystery of the resurrection...the resurrection was no mystery at all, it was spoken of many many times in the OT. Therefore, the only mystery being revealed is the catching away of the PHYSICALLY living saints, who will be caught up together with them; (those who have passed on before us, or who sleep)

Gillian
Jun 24th 2008, 11:44 PM
I alway view heaven in same 24 clock hours as earth.

I believe time run from forever to forever across any demonsions while creation are of 6 thousands years old.

time itself is not under death or a visible thing. not ever part of lights and darkness visible or relate to 6,000 years old martail creations that all was created. Decay rust death assicioted of old are in some way earth viewpoint assicoted with time aumtomically, that natural to assume really.

God say to Job. can you count my years? No you cant because my years is too many to count.

many others verses point to about time.

Gillian

Prophecy Man
Jun 25th 2008, 03:40 PM
Well, Folks I am a die hard believer in the " catching away" of the believers in Christ just pryer to God's pouring out His Judgement on this Christ Rejecting world. Here is why.

# 1 Revelation 19 says the army of heaven comes back with Christ
" Dressed in white Robes " which is the righteousness of the Saints.
# 2 Jesus did refer to a rapture , or , a recieving to Himself in John
chapter fourteen. That where he is we shall be also. Where is
Jesus now? HE is with the father not here on earth.

Acts 1 : 6 The Apostles were asking Jesus" is this be the time you
are restoring the Kingdom to Israel ". Jesus told them it was not
for them to know the " times and periods " the Father has set by
His own authority. Their concern was to await for the promise of
the father and they would recieve Power from on high emdubed
by the Holy spirit.
So Jesus did not deny the Kingdom of God so it must be a
future reality. Also Jesus refered to " times and periods " set by
the Father Himself. ( could this support dispensationalism? )

Us Christians disagree on when , not if , the rapture happens. We read
and make our judgements but the solid truth never changes. There will be a chatching away and we christians will be the focal point of it.

Personally, all the peace talks going on and all the lies spread throughout this great land just excites me because it is supposed to happen. And if I find myself wrong about a " Pre trib rapture " as opposed to a post trib there still will be a rapture.

Doug

ShirleyFord
Jun 25th 2008, 06:38 PM
Personally, all the peace talks going on and all the lies spread throughout this great land just excites me because it is supposed to happen. And if I find myself wrong about a " Pre trib rapture " as opposed to a post trib there still will be a rapture.

Doug

Doug, you want to know what excites me, what really excites me beyond and regardless of anything else going on around me, or in my county, or in my state, or in the government at the national level or with any government, or what nation is fighting another nation or what this nation is doing and that nation might try to do to some other nation? You want me to just come right out and tell you?

The thought that I'm 68 years old and I'm nearer Home now! My Heavenly Home. New Jerusalem, that holy city from above that will descend down to the new earth when our Lord Jesus returns. This old world is not my home. I'm just a pilgrim passing through.

Hebrews 11 says this about the Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.


Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.



Shirley

Firstfruits
Jun 25th 2008, 08:14 PM
After studying the "day of the Lord" further and some of the scriptures other posters have posted in another thread, I think I may have changed my position to a-mill prematurely. I guess for now I am in the "undecided" column when it comes to the millenium.

Hi CBW,

With regards to the scriptures I gave you, does judgment of the dead take place before or after the millenium?

Is judgment according our works?

Is this then not when Jesus returns to reward every man according to their works, after the millenium is finished?


Rev 20:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 22:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.


Firstfruits

wpm
Jun 25th 2008, 09:47 PM
Hi CBW,

With regards to the scriptures I gave you, does judgment of the dead take place before or after the millenium?

Is judgment according our works?

Is this then not when Jesus returns to reward every man according to their works, after the millenium is finished?


Rev 20:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 22:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.


Firstfruits

This aligns with every judgment passage that show all men beingv judged at the one time. We are not saved by works, but works are the result of an obedient life. They are not the cause of our salvation but the consequence. This aligns with the destruction of the world. This is the Second Coming. Yes this is when the world is destroyed.

Revelation 22:12 says, “behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”

Jesus said in Matthew 16:27,“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”

It is not just the righteous living and the righteous dead that are raised - as you argue, everyone must be raised because Paul says everyone is judged when Jesus comes and introduce His eternal kingdom.

2 Timothy 4:1 identifies the actual time when Adam's race will stand to account before the throne of God, saying, “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom.”

Adam’s race – in total – is therefore judged “at his (Christ’s) epifaneian (or) appearing and his kingdom.” Everyman that has ever lived from the foundation of the world will be then brought before the final judgment bar of God to account for their earthly lives. This is undoubtedly an all-inclusive general judgment. The persons involved and the occasion referred to could not be clearer.

Romans 14:10-12 says, “we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”

Whilst there is no doubt, Paul is addressing Christians, he is notifying believers of an oft repeated truth in Scripture – namely that all mankind will stand before God on the Judgment Day and account for the lives they have lived. In fact, Paul personalises this by saying, “every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”

2 Corinthians 5:10-11 similarly says, “for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”

A look at the wording of this passage makes it abundantly clear that “we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ.” The context of this reading shows us that it is not only believers will stand before Christ. Those that have done both “good and bad” stand before this final eternal tribunal.The dualistic nature of the judgment is highlighted in the sentence structure that Paul uses in verse 11. Paul says “knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men.” When Paul uses the word “therefore” it means we must consider the previous sentence to see what is being referred to. We must note the “therefore” of verse 11 is tied directly to the word “for” of verse 10. In other words, "for" all will appear before Christ - "therefore" we attempt to persuade men. Worded another way one could say ‘since we know that all of us will appear before Christ to answer for our deeds, we do our best to persuade men to repent in order to escape the terror of the Lord’.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:6-8,“every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.”

1 Corinthians 3:11-15says, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”


Paul

cwb
Jun 26th 2008, 04:45 AM
Hi CBW,

With regards to the scriptures I gave you, does judgment of the dead take place before or after the millenium?

Is judgment according our works?

Is this then not when Jesus returns to reward every man according to their works, after the millenium is finished?


Rev 20:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 22:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.


Firstfruits

I am undecided as of right now. When do you see the millenium taking place? Do you believe it is happening right now or do you believe it is something that will happen in the future?

vinsight4u8
Jun 26th 2008, 04:53 AM
Hi Prophecy Man,
Do you realize that Rev. 19 actually has "armies" coming from heaven....but only a single army goes on to fight at Armageddon?

Don't miss that Rev. 19 opens at the point of salvation. Read Rev. 12 and Rev. 7 to see that the trib time is over before salvation.

Rev.12 shows
Satan cast to the earth
goes after the brethren that he had been accusing in heaven
they loved not their lives unto the death
then salvation

Rev. 7 shows
the great trib martyrs
then salvation


Hebrews 9:28
"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
KJV

Firstfruits
Jun 26th 2008, 09:06 AM
This aligns with every judgment passage that show all men beingv judged at the one time. We are not saved by works, but works are the result of an obedient life. They are not the cause of our salvation but the consequence. This aligns with the destruction of the world. This is the Second Coming. Yes this is when the world is destroyed.

Revelation 22:12 says, “behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”

Jesus said in Matthew 16:27,“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”

It is not just the righteous living and the righteous dead that are raised - as you argue, everyone must be raised because Paul says everyone is judged when Jesus comes and introduce His eternal kingdom.

2 Timothy 4:1 identifies the actual time when Adam's race will stand to account before the throne of God, saying, “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom.”

Adam’s race – in total – is therefore judged “at his (Christ’s) epifaneian (or) appearing and his kingdom.” Everyman that has ever lived from the foundation of the world will be then brought before the final judgment bar of God to account for their earthly lives. This is undoubtedly an all-inclusive general judgment. The persons involved and the occasion referred to could not be clearer.

Romans 14:10-12 says, “we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”

Whilst there is no doubt, Paul is addressing Christians, he is notifying believers of an oft repeated truth in Scripture – namely that all mankind will stand before God on the Judgment Day and account for the lives they have lived. In fact, Paul personalises this by saying, “every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”

2 Corinthians 5:10-11 similarly says, “for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”

A look at the wording of this passage makes it abundantly clear that “we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ.” The context of this reading shows us that it is not only believers will stand before Christ. Those that have done both “good and bad” stand before this final eternal tribunal.The dualistic nature of the judgment is highlighted in the sentence structure that Paul uses in verse 11. Paul says “knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men.” When Paul uses the word “therefore” it means we must consider the previous sentence to see what is being referred to. We must note the “therefore” of verse 11 is tied directly to the word “for” of verse 10. In other words, "for" all will appear before Christ - "therefore" we attempt to persuade men. Worded another way one could say ‘since we know that all of us will appear before Christ to answer for our deeds, we do our best to persuade men to repent in order to escape the terror of the Lord’.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:6-8,“every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.”

1 Corinthians 3:11-15says, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”


Paul

Thanks Paul,

I think you have said it all, but as you can understand it is still not clear for some.

God bless you!!

Michael

Firstfruits
Jun 26th 2008, 09:38 AM
I am undecided as of right now. When do you see the millenium taking place? Do you believe it is happening right now or do you believe it is something that will happen in the future?

For the millennium to take place all the events leading up to it must be fulfilled, i.e.,

A, The Antichrist must be revealed.

B, The whole earth must worship Satan and the beast.

C, The whole earth will be deceived.

D, The false prophet must enforce worship of the beast.

E, Those that do not worship the beast will be killed.

F, The beast will reign for 42 months (three and a half years).

G, The millennium begins when Satan can no longer deceive the nations.

H, The saints that have been killed during the reign of the beast are resurrected.

If these an all that must be fulfilled before then have not been fulfilled then it has not yet begun.

Hope this has been helpful.

Firstfruits

John146
Jun 26th 2008, 01:37 PM
For the millennium to take place all the events leading up to it must be fulfilled, i.e.,

A, The Antichrist must be revealed.

B, The whole earth must worship Satan and the beast.

C, The whole earth will be deceived.

D, The false prophet must enforce worship of the beast.

E, Those that do not worship the beast will be killed.

F, The beast will reign for 42 months (three and a half years).

G, The millennium begins when Satan can no longer deceive the nations.

H, The saints that have been killed during the reign of the beast are resurrected.

If these an all that must be fulfilled before then have not been fulfilled then it has not yet begun.

Hope this has been helpful.

Firstfruits

You confuse me because you have said a lot of things before that support amillennialism, yet here you are claiming to be a premillennialist (because you're saying the millennium will only be in the future).

For example, you have pointed out several times before that Jesus said that believers will be resurrected on the last day (John 6:40) and unbelievers will be judged (condemned) on the last day. When do you believe the last day will occur? What is your understanding of Matthew 25:31-46, which indicates the day of judgment occurs when Christ returns? Don't you believe that is the last day?

Firstfruits
Jun 26th 2008, 02:30 PM
You confuse me because you have said a lot of things before that support amillennialism, yet here you are claiming to be a premillennialist (because you're saying the millennium will only be in the future).

For example, you have pointed out several times before that Jesus said that believers will be resurrected on the last day (John 6:40) and unbelievers will be judged (condemned) on the last day. When do you believe the last day will occur? What is your understanding of Matthew 25:31-46, which indicates the day of judgment occurs when Christ returns? Don't you believe that is the last day?

Sorry for the confusion, let me explain. I accept and believe the points you have made; For example, you have pointed out several times before that Jesus said that believers will be resurrected on the last day (John 6:40) and unbelievers will be judged (condemned) on the last day. When do you believe the last day will occur? What is your understanding of Matthew 25:31-46, which indicates the day of judgment occurs when Christ returns? Don't you believe that is the last day?

I believe the confusion is concerning the saints mentioned in the first resurrection. They are the saints that are here during the reign of the beast, please note this is not at Christs return, there is no judgment, and it is not the last day.

Rev 15:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

The rest of the dead as promised by Jesus shall not be raised from the dead until the last day as it is written;
Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Jn 6:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn 12:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

According to Jesus it is only those in the first resurrection that will not have to worry about the second death;

Rev 20:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

For every one else as it is written we shall all stand before Christ at his return to be judged.

Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I hope that explains the confusion, if not let me know.

John146
Jun 26th 2008, 03:02 PM
Sorry for the confusion, let me explain. I accept and believe the points you have made; For example, you have pointed out several times before that Jesus said that believers will be resurrected on the last day (John 6:40) and unbelievers will be judged (condemned) on the last day. When do you believe the last day will occur? What is your understanding of Matthew 25:31-46, which indicates the day of judgment occurs when Christ returns? Don't you believe that is the last day?

I believe the confusion is concerning the saints mentioned in the first resurrection. They are the saints that are here during the reign of the beast, please note this is not at Christs return, there is no judgment, and it is not the last day.

Rev 15:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

The rest of the dead as promised by Jesus shall not be raised from the dead until the last day as it is written;
Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Jn 6:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn 12:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

According to Jesus it is only those in the first resurrection that will not have to worry about the second death;

Rev 20:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

For every one else as it is written we shall all stand before Christ at his return to be judged.

Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I hope that explains the confusion, if not let me know.

It appears that you have quite a unique view. So you have the first resurrection taking place neither at the time of the first coming nor the second coming of Christ, but apparently a short time before the second coming? So you see kind of a mid-trib rapture taking place?

And you assume that the first resurrection is the physical resurrection of believers only? The same resurrection mentioned in 1 Cor 15:51-54? Or do you think 1 Cor 15:51-54 speaks of the last day resurrection? And what about John 5:28-29 which says that all people are resurrected at the same time? Do you think it means all except those who take the mark of the beast, who are resurrected before then? I'm still a little unclear on what you believe exactly because I don't think I've ever seen this belief before.

If you don't mind, can you give me a timeline of how you see things occurring that includes the "reign of the beast", the first resurrection, the thousand years, the resurrection of "the rest of the dead", Christ's return and the judgment? As of now, I can't quite tell exactly what you believe will happen when.

Thanks,
Eric

Prophecy Man
Jun 26th 2008, 03:26 PM
Hi Shirly,
All I can say is DITTO. I know we are possibly the last generation before Christ comes. I work in a Seventh Day Adventist invironment and their take on the last days is pretty much what I read on this message board. We have all agreed together we are in the last days and even a chaplin told me all this is supposed to happen ( reason for my comment ) so we should be excited beyond belief. As far as that is concerned I am. One day the trumpet will sound and we will behold him. Jesus is the reason I am so on fire about the last days. This world is on it's way out and we know of a better one that is promised.


God bless you ---- all of you

Doug

Firstfruits
Jun 26th 2008, 03:31 PM
It appears that you have quite a unique view. So you have the first resurrection taking place neither at the time of the first coming nor the second coming of Christ, but apparently a short time before the second coming? So you see kind of a mid-trib rapture taking place?

And you assume that the first resurrection is the physical resurrection of believers only? The same resurrection mentioned in 1 Cor 15:51-54? Or do you think 1 Cor 15:51-54 speaks of the last day resurrection? And what about John 5:28-29 which says that all people are resurrected at the same time? Do you think it means all except those who take the mark of the beast, who are resurrected before then? I'm still a little unclear on what you believe exactly because I don't think I've ever seen this belief before.

If you don't mind, can you give me a timeline of how you see things occurring that includes the "reign of the beast", the first resurrection, the thousand years, the resurrection of "the rest of the dead", Christ's return and the judgment? As of now, I can't quite tell exactly what you believe will happen when.

Thanks,
Eric

Hi Eric,

According to what is written the first resurrection is only for those that are killed during the reign of the beast for 42 months.

It is not 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 because it is not at the last day, it is not at the coming of Christ. Jesus does not return until judgment day which is after the millenium is finished.

Can you see anyone else other than those that are here during the reign of the beast in these scriptures?

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 15:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Remember also that there is no judgment here, but that they were given judgment, so when is the judgment?

Michael

Prophecy Man
Jun 27th 2008, 03:38 PM
A person on this message board will see some rather way out beliefs if he or she hangs out long enough. I have heard there are about five resurrections to happen. John Wolvard ( now with the lord ) from Dallas theological Seminary wrote a book on all of the prophecies and in it he lays out all five. I will mention three I know of :

# 1 when the lord decends from heaven " The dead in Christ rises first ".
here only the bellievers are mentioned.

# 2 at the end of the tribulation the old testement saints are raised up
when Christ sits on His throne of glory. (Mathew 25)

#3 revelation twenty where " the books are opened " and the Dead are judged according to their works. Another book is opened and if a person's
name is not found in it they are thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second Death and any one not found written in the book of life is Judged.

Many disagree on the passages I just mentioned but at least we all agree on one thing. There will be a resurrection and as a believer in Christ we are promised eternal life with Him and will only fall asleep not die.

Hope this helps.

Doug

Mograce2U
Jun 27th 2008, 04:30 PM
(2 Tim 4:1 KJV) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

(1 Pet 4:5 KJV) Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

["give account" here in the Greek is more like what they do is rendered upon their own heads at this time]

(2 Th 1:7-9 KJV) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, {8} In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: {9} Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Now I don't know about anyone else but it seems to me the judgment of the quick (those yet alive) and the already dead is when the wrath of God comes upon the living, and is when the dead (saints) are raised to stand in the judgment. That is the arrival of the day of vengeance to accomplish this (Luke 21:22; also see Luke 14:19, Isa 61:2).

(2 Th 2:10-12 KJV) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. {11} And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

In this day the ones who suffer this vengeance are damned as they perish. Are we to think that THEY will stand again to face another judgment when it seems that is what this event was to accomplish?

All throughout the OT we see the wicked have no hope in rising again - those who know not God. They are the ones for whom the king of terrors awaits them at their death (Job 18:14), who is the king over the children of pride (Job 41:34), whom the children of the devil serve. Satan is their father.

But we also see that God works His election among His sons and gives them hope. They are the ones who hope in being raised again. A hope that was met at the cross. When we see God's wrath come upon people in this life - that is their judgment to remove them from the world (Job 18:18) where they find hell awaits (Luke 16:22+). The devil's children have no hope of another judgment to determine their fate. So if the judgment after death is to include all men who ever lived, even those who despised God in this life and whom He already judged - I just don't see it. However among the sons of God some will face a sentence of eternal death. And this is what THEY must be brought to judgment for. But those who stand condemned already and perish in the day of their death, because they would not repent and turn to God in this life, they have no hope in death at all.

Which is of course just my opinion as I search these things out.

(Heb 9:26-28 KJV) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. {27} And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: {28} So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The appointment which is for ALL men is death. But the judgment seems specifically for those who belong to Christ - the ones whose sins He bore, receive their salvation. Those who died in their sins were not given this hope, though they were among the elect of God - this is who the judgment has in view - Israel.

Firstfruits
Jun 27th 2008, 04:39 PM
A person on this message board will see some rather way out beliefs if he or she hangs out long enough. I have heard there are about five resurrections to happen. John Wolvard ( now with the lord ) from Dallas theological Seminary wrote a book on all of the prophecies and in it he lays out all five. I will mention three I know of :

# 1 when the lord decends from heaven " The dead in Christ rises first ".
here only the bellievers are mentioned.

# 2 at the end of the tribulation the old testement saints are raised up
when Christ sits on His throne of glory. (Mathew 25)

#3 revelation twenty where " the books are opened " and the Dead are judged according to their works. Another book is opened and if a person's
name is not found in it they are thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second Death and any one not found written in the book of life is Judged.

Many disagree on the passages I just mentioned but at least we all agree on one thing. There will be a resurrection and as a believer in Christ we are promised eternal life with Him and will only fall asleep not die.

Hope this helps.

Doug

Thanks Doug,

Yes this is helpful.

The following scripture deals with two resurrections; Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Now as far as scripture tells us Jesus returns only once, so even though there are two resurrections mentioned it does not mean he will come back twice.

There are events that will take place before his return at judgment which according to scripture is after the millenium, so having two resurrections does not change when Jesus returns.

Multiple resurrections does not mean multiple returns of Christ.

Michael

Firstfruits
Jun 27th 2008, 04:54 PM
(2 Tim 4:1 KJV) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

(1 Pet 4:5 KJV) Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

["give account" here in the Greek is more like what they do is rendered upon their own heads at this time]

(2 Th 1:7-9 KJV) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, {8} In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: {9} Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Now I don't know about anyone else but it seems to me the judgment of the quick (those yet alive) and the already dead is when the wrath of God comes upon the living and the dead (saints) are raised to stand in the judgment. That is the arrival of the day of vengeance to accomplish this.

(2 Th 2:10-12 KJV) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. {11} And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

In this day the ones who suffer this vengeance are damned as they perish. Are we to think that THEY will stand again to face another judgment when it seems that is what this event was to accomplish?

All throughout the OT we see the wicked have no hope in rising again - those who know not God. They are the ones for whom the king of terrors awaits them at their death (Job 18:14), who is the king over the children of pride (Job 41:34), whom the children of the devil serve. Satan is their father.

But we also see that God works His election among His sons and gives them hope. They are the ones who hope in being raised again. A hope that was met at the cross. When we see God's wrath come upon people in this life - that is their judgment to remove them from the world where they find hell awaits. The devil's children have no hope of another judgment to determine their fate. So if the judgment after death is to include all men who ever lived, even those who despised God in this life and whom He already judged - I just don't see it. However among the sons of God some will face a sentence of eternal death. And this is what THEY must be brought to judgment for. But those who stand condemned already and perish in the day of their death, because they would not repent and turn to God in this life, they have no hope in death at all.

Which is of course just my opinion as I search these things out.

(Heb 9:26-28 KJV) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. {27} And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: {28} So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The appointment which is for ALL men is death. But the judgment seems specifically for those who belong to Christ - the ones whose sins He bore. Those who died in their sins were not given this hope, though they were among the elect of God - this is who the judgment has in view - Israel.

So you therefore agree that there is only one return of Jesus and that it will be at judgment, and that will be after the millennium is finished.

There are however two resurections one at the begining of the millenium and one after the millennium, it is clear that judgment does not take place before the millennium so even though there is a resurrection it does not mean that Jesus returns then.

Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

acacia_gold
Jun 27th 2008, 04:58 PM
So you therefore agree that there is only one return of Jesus and that it will be at judgment, and that will be after the millennium is finished.

There are however two resurections one at the begining of the millenium and one after the millennium, it is clear that judgment does not take place before the millennium so even though there is a resurrection it does not mean that Jesus returns then.

Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
I don't think that being caught up in the clouds constitutes a return. Two resurections, one return. The 3rd resurection is at the great white throne.

John146
Jun 27th 2008, 05:38 PM
I don't think that being caught up in the clouds constitutes a return. Two resurections, one return. The 3rd resurection is at the great white throne.

3 resurrections? Why didn't anyone tell Paul? Paul said this:

15And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. - Acts 24:15

Paul seemed to know of only one resurrection that includes both the just and unjust. Just like Daniel and Jesus taught (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29).

acacia_gold
Jun 27th 2008, 05:53 PM
3 resurrections? Why didn't anyone tell Paul? Paul said this:

15And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. - Acts 24:15

Paul seemed to know of only one resurrection that includes both the just and unjust. Just like Daniel and Jesus taught (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29).
Two aspects of the 1st resurection include the rapture , and the resurrection of trib saints and 2 witnesses.
The great white throne is the resurrection of the wicked.


Your saying their is no ressurection except at the white throne? how is that possible?

John146
Jun 27th 2008, 06:20 PM
Two aspects of the 1st resurection include the rapture , and the resurrection of trib saints and 2 witnesses.
The great white throne is the resurrection of the wicked.

Your saying their is no ressurection except at the white throne? how is that possible?

I'm an amillennialist. Are you familiar with that view? I'm saying there is no other physical resurrection of all the dead, which includes both the saved and the lost, except what occurs when Christ returns. I don't believe the first resurrection has to do with the physical resurrection of the dead. I believe it has to do with people spiritually taking part in Christ's resurrection. Remember, at the beginning of Revelation 20 John sees souls and not people in resurrected bodies. Those souls live and reign with Christ for the thousand years, which I believe is a figurative term. The text says nothing about those souls uniting with their new bodies at that time. The following two passages show that all people, saved and lost are resurrected at the same time and judged at the same general time. Here's the first one:

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. - John 5:28-29

An hour or time is coming when ALL who are in the graves will hear Jesus' voice and come forth (are raised from the dead). Some to everlasting life and some to everlasting damnation.

The following depicts all people being brought before the throne of judgment at the same time when Christ returns:

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matthew 25:31-34,41,46

This passage tell us that when Christ returns, ALL nations will be gathered before Him for judgment. The people will be divided up on each side of Him, with believers (sheep) on the right and unbelievers (goats) on the left. Believers inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them before the foundation of the world. Unbelievers are cast into everlasting fire for everlasting punishment, just like is described in Revelation 20:15.

There are other passages that show the resurrection and judgment of all people occurs at the same time. These include Matthew 13:24-30,36-43 (parable of the sower) and Matthew 13:47-50.

acacia_gold
Jun 27th 2008, 06:32 PM
That's why I don't bother with end time predictions. There's too many views, none of which pertain to salvation. Just as with the Esaus there's plenty that shouldn't be done (the wide road) but the commands given to the spirtual Israel is what counts (the narrow Way) and takes up a lifetime just to follow that.

Firstfruits
Jun 27th 2008, 07:18 PM
I'm an amillennialist. Are you familiar with that view? I'm saying there is no other physical resurrection of all the dead, which includes both the saved and the lost, except what occurs when Christ returns. I don't believe the first resurrection has to do with the physical resurrection of the dead. I believe it has to do with people spiritually taking part in Christ's resurrection. Remember, at the beginning of Revelation 20 John sees souls and not people in resurrected bodies. Those souls live and reign with Christ for the thousand years, which I believe is a figurative term. The text says nothing about those souls uniting with their new bodies at that time. The following two passages show that all people, saved and lost are resurrected at the same time and judged at the same general time. Here's the first one:

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. - John 5:28-29

An hour or time is coming when ALL who are in the graves will hear Jesus' voice and come forth (are raised from the dead). Some to everlasting life and some to everlasting damnation.

The following depicts all people being brought before the throne of judgment at the same time when Christ returns:

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matthew 25:31-34,41,46

This passage tell us that when Christ returns, ALL nations will be gathered before Him for judgment. The people will be divided up on each side of Him, with believers (sheep) on the right and unbelievers (goats) on the left. Believers inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them before the foundation of the world. Unbelievers are cast into everlasting fire for everlasting punishment, just like is described in Revelation 20:15.

There are other passages that show the resurrection and judgment of all people occurs at the same time. These include Matthew 13:24-30,36-43 (parable of the sower) and Matthew 13:47-50.

Do you agree that the resurrections in this scripture are not at the same time, by at least 1000 years?

Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Again this does not change that Jesus returns after the millennium.

Michael

Raybob
Jun 27th 2008, 07:30 PM
Can you see anyone else other than those that are here during the reign of the beast in these scriptures?

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 15:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.


Notice how many "and"s there are. He saw "the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus"
AND (+) three other groups of souls including ones that didn't worship the beast. The "souls of them that were beheaded for the witness" would have to include at least all the ones mentioned that were beheaded in Fox's Book of Martyrs.

Raybob

John146
Jun 27th 2008, 07:35 PM
Do you agree that the resurrections in this scripture are not at the same time, by at least 1000 years?

Rev 20:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Again this does not change that Jesus returns after the millennium.

Michael

Yes, but I believe there is only one general physical resurrection of all the dead, as is taught in the scriptures I quoted. I believe that resurrection is the second one. I believe all believers spiritually take part in the first resurrection, which is Christ's resurrection (see 1 Cor 15:20-23). Again, John sees souls reigning with Christ, not people with resurrected bodies. What is your understanding of passages like John 5:28-29 and Matthew 25:31-46. Do they not teach that all people, saved and lost, are resurrected at the same time and judged at the same time?

Firstfruits
Jun 27th 2008, 07:38 PM
Notice how many "and"s there are. He saw "the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus"
AND (+) three other groups of souls including ones that didn't worship the beast. The "souls of them that were beheaded for the witness" would have to include at least all the ones mentioned that were beheaded in Fox's Book of Martyrs.

Raybob

Thanks Raybob,

How would you explain this scripture?

Rev 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Henceforth from when?

Firstfruits

Raybob
Jun 27th 2008, 08:19 PM
Thanks Raybob,

How would you explain this scripture?

Rev 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Henceforth from when?

Firstfruits

The voice from heaven was speaking present tense to John as he wrote what he wrote. A logical reading would mean that "Henceforth" is from when John wrote what he wrote. When he wrote Revelation, he was told to write three things: past present and future to him at that time.:

Rev 1:19
(19) Write the things which thou hast seen(PAST), and the things which are(PRESENT), and the things which shall be hereafter(FUTURE);

Parenthesis added by me for clarification.

Raybob

John146
Jun 27th 2008, 09:02 PM
The voice from heaven was speaking present tense to John as he wrote what he wrote. A logical reading would mean that "Henceforth" is from when John wrote what he wrote. When he wrote Revelation, he was told to write three things: past present and future to him at that time.:

Rev 1:19
(19) Write the things which thou hast seen(PAST), and the things which are(PRESENT), and the things which shall be hereafter(FUTURE);

Parenthesis added by me for clarification.

Raybob

I agree with this. The angel told John to write down, right then and there sometime in the first century, that those who would die in the Lord from that point on would be blessed. The angel was specifically speaking of the very time that John was told to write down what the angel told him to write. I can't see any other way to read it.

Firstfruits
Jun 28th 2008, 11:10 AM
Yes, but I believe there is only one general physical resurrection of all the dead, as is taught in the scriptures I quoted. I believe that resurrection is the second one. I believe all believers spiritually take part in the first resurrection, which is Christ's resurrection (see 1 Cor 15:20-23). Again, John sees souls reigning with Christ, not people with resurrected bodies. What is your understanding of passages like John 5:28-29 and Matthew 25:31-46. Do they not teach that all people, saved and lost, are resurrected at the same time and judged at the same time?

Hi Eric,

I agree that the saved and lost will be resurrected as it is written, but it clearly states that there is a resurrection of the saint that are killed during the reign of the beast and the false prophet, who will during the millennium reign with Jesus.

Will the saints in the following not be killed, and then raised from the dead at the first resurrection?

Rev 13:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Michael

Firstfruits
Jun 28th 2008, 11:22 AM
The voice from heaven was speaking present tense to John as he wrote what he wrote. A logical reading would mean that "Henceforth" is from when John wrote what he wrote. When he wrote Revelation, he was told to write three things: past present and future to him at that time.:

Rev 1:19
(19) Write the things which thou hast seen(PAST), and the things which are(PRESENT), and the things which shall be hereafter(FUTURE);

Parenthesis added by me for clarification.

Raybob

Would you say then that the events of the beast, his image, and the mark of his name and the saints being killed for not worshiping the beast are passed or ye to come?

Rev 14:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow
them.

Firstfruits
Jun 28th 2008, 11:25 AM
I agree with this. The angel told John to write down, right then and there sometime in the first century, that those who would die in the Lord from that point on would be blessed. The angel was specifically speaking of the very time that John was told to write down what the angel told him to write. I can't see any other way to read it.

According to what is written the message is concerned with the time of the reign of the beast and the false prophet.

Rev 14:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow

Has that time already come, or it is yet to come?

Raybob
Jun 28th 2008, 05:00 PM
Would you say then that the events of the beast, his image, and the mark of his name and the saints being killed for not worshiping the beast are passed or ye to come?


Both passed and yet to come. :)

Firstfruits
Jun 28th 2008, 07:50 PM
Both passed and yet to come. :)

Which of these is passed, and which is yet to come?

Rev 13:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

When did Jesus come and destroy the beast the false prophet and all that followed them?

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Firstfruits

Raybob
Jun 28th 2008, 08:59 PM
Which of these is passed, and which is yet to come?

Rev 13:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Yet to come.


Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. In both of these passages, John saw them in the past but John saw a physical representation of a spiritual phenomenon that is past, present and future until Satan's "little season".



Rev 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
John was told to write this in the past, about events present and yet to come to him. Actually, I believe it includes past to John in the first century as well, including Steven of Acts 7.


When did Jesus come and destroy the beast the false prophet and all that followed them?Yet to come.


Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

FirstfruitsYet to come.
Raybob

Chondram
Jun 28th 2008, 11:19 PM
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

I kept being drawn back to verse 7, and was wondering, "How could he make war with the saints, if they have already been raptured away?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My understanding of this is after the "rapture" there will be MANY lukewarm Christians left behind (who will KNOW what happened with the sudden disappearance of millions), and when the two wittinesses and 144,000 witnessing in the name of Christ (again, after the 'rapture'), many will turn to Christ and NOT worship the beast/Antichrist. They will be killed or have to "flee" into the mountains for safety.

By no means am I a Bible theologian...just so ya know...not claiming to be!

Raybob
Jun 29th 2008, 12:46 AM
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

I kept being drawn back to verse 7, and was wondering, "How could he make war with the saints, if they have already been raptured away?"

Looks like you found one of the multi-many loopholes in the rapture plot. ;) How can the saints be raptured, yet still be persecuted? We already know about what happens to "lukewarm Christians", from the words of Jesus.

Rev 3:16
(16) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Yes, anytime you hear of a rapture preached to happen before Jesus returns, you know you are listening to lies of the devil.

1Ti 4:1
(1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

It's just one more sign that He will return soon because we know that departing from the faith is the same as the falling away which happens before we are gathered unto Jesus.

2Th 2:1-3
(1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Raybob

My heart's Desire
Jun 29th 2008, 05:27 AM
Looks like you found one of the multi-many loopholes in the rapture plot. ;) How can the saints be raptured, yet still be persecuted? We already know about what happens to "lukewarm Christians", from the words of Jesus.


RaybobActually, it is not a loophole if we know that the trib is the 70th week of Daniel, which is Jewish and after the rapture of the church there will be Jewish saints who will be persecuted. A Saint is any of those who have been saved during any certain period of time. For example, he can make war with those who became saints during the trib. period.

Raybob
Jun 29th 2008, 06:32 AM
Actually, it is not a loophole if we know that the trib is the 70th week of Daniel, which is Jewish and after the rapture of the church there will be Jewish saints who will be persecuted. A Saint is any of those who have been saved during any certain period of time. For example, he can make war with those who became saints during the trib. period.
The 70th week being separated from the other 69 by a gap of over 2000 years is the biggest loophole of all. There are no gaps in time in bible prophecy. Please tell me just what other prophecy has a gap in time besides that one if it really did?

Raybob

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2008, 07:34 AM
Yet to come.
In both of these passages, John saw them in the past but John saw a physical representation of a spiritual phenomenon that is past, present and future until Satan's "little season".

John was told to write this in the past, about events present and yet to come to him. Actually, I believe it includes past to John in the first century as well, including Steven of Acts 7.
Yet to come.Yet to come.
Raybob

Would it be fair to say that if those events are yet to come, that the millennium is also yet to come, since the millennium involves those mentioned?

Rev 13:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

God bless you!!

Firstfruits

Raybob
Jun 29th 2008, 08:15 AM
Would it be fair to say that if those events are yet to come, that the millennium is also yet to come, since the millennium involves those mentioned?

The ones I mentioned that were past, present, and yet to come? It would be fair to say the millennium would be as much yet to come as it is in past and present, until Satan's little season. :pp
Raybob

ananias
Jun 29th 2008, 09:18 AM
As many of you here know I use to be a pre-trib, pre-mill. I have changed my position to post-trib, a-mill.

Reason #1 : II peter 3:10 says


The only way I see to reconcile this verse with the pre-mill position is to say that the "day of the lord" includes the thousand years. The problem I see with that is as a pre-miller, I always saw the millenium as something positive. From studying the "day of the Lord" and all the passages involving the day of the Lord, I can not see the day of the Lord as being something positive nor something I want to be involved in. Therefore I have trouble reconciling II peter 3:10 with being pre-mill.

Reason #2 - A few times on this forum I have asked the question, "For post -tribbers, what is the purpose of the rapture, if we are going to just go up there and come right back down to earth? Why go up there if we are just going to come right back down?" I did not feel that any of the answers given to that question was satisfactory. What I feel the correct answer to that question is that we never come back to this earth after we are raptured. I believe that the new heavens and earth is already created and when we are raptured from this earth, we go directly there without ever coming back to this earth. After we are raptured, the current heaven and earth is completely burned up never to be seen again.

In II cor. 12:2-4, the apostle Paul saw a vision of a person being raptured:


In Paul's vision, this person was "harpazo" or caught up directly to the new heaven and earth. This causes me to think that when we are raptured, we meet the lord in the air and go directly to the new heaven and earth (which God has already created in preparation for us).


Something I still strongly disagree with many (not all) a-millers on is concerning the future tribulation. I still believe there will be a future tribulation and a "man of sin" who will try to play God. Also, something I will not do after changing my position from pre-trib, is disrepect my brothers and sisters who are still pre-trib and view those believers as second class Christians as many people who are not pre-trib do. I know that pre-trib believers get their viewpoint from how they interpret scripture so to say that pre-tribbers do not get their viewpoint from scripture is pure nonsense. I just see it a little differently at this point and time.

All right, I am ready rebuttals from all sides. Slam me. Shoot me. (that's symbolic. no one knows where I live. :lol:)

It takes someone with real Christian humility to say, "I've changed my view on this because I now think I was wrong about it".

SHOWS YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN - and a good example to all of us.

Ananias.

Firstfruits
Jun 29th 2008, 02:09 PM
The ones I mentioned that were past, present, and yet to come? It would be fair to say the millennium would be as much yet to come as it is in past and present, until Satan's little season. :pp
Raybob

With the understanding that the message in this scripture concerns the time of the beast and the false prophet, and what happens to those that follow them it then goes on to say what happens to those who die from henceforth ( from now on, from this time) in the Lord. From hence forth does not mean from time gone by or from the past.

Rev 13:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 14:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

If the millennium was past, it would have to have a begining, and for that to happen Satan must first deceive the nations by the power he gives to the beast and the false prophet, if they are yet to come then Satan cannot be bound, and the millennium has not yet begun.

God bless!!

Firstfruits

oldfaithfull
Jun 29th 2008, 03:01 PM
I want respond to this part of the post. "In Paul's vision, this person was "harpazo" or caught up directly to the new heaven and earth. This causes me to think that when we are raptured, we meet the lord in the air and go directly to the new heaven and earth (which God has already created in preparation for us)".

The new heaven and earth is something overlooked by many Christians. Same goes for the issue of time. (does time have the same meaning on the other side?)
It is only logic to state when the universe ends, all energy contained in the building blocks are used for another one. Wich would mean we indeed go to a new heaven and a new earth. What if the entire time we have been on this planet only months have passed for our lord, is the bible clear on the issue of time?

Something i have spent many hours on over the years because it would explain so many things. (science is also pointing in similar directions) For example the issue of time could bring religion closer to science on several issues if time progresses differently outside this realm it would bring creationism and (parts of) darwinism closer together. It could even mean this universe is indeed billions of years old and god could still have created it in six days, days in the other realm. What if DNA is indeed constructed perfectly so gods creatures can adapt to sudden changes to lead "us" particularly to this point in time.

All this only strengthens my faith it makes the bible an even stronger message, there is not a single mention in the bible on the age of the earth. Wouldn't it be great that when we die we go to heaven and because of time passing differently (not faster or slower just different) our loved ones would arrive almost immediately after our arrival?

What is the meaning of an earthly life? "taking care of gods creation, and we did a pretty lousy job" Never to late to change peace and prayers to all the good guys!

Mograce2U
Jun 29th 2008, 05:35 PM
cwb, #1 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1680507&postcount=1)
Paul's explanation of being caught up in 2 Cor 12 ought to give us a big clue of what he is talking about later in 1 Thes 4:17 at the time the dead are raised. Here this catching up is obviously of one living, as it pertains to visions and revelations of the Lord and our understanding of them. Both Paul and John experienced this catching up to receive visions and revelations of the Lord. And both continued to live in the flesh afterwards.

But when the dead were raised - a spiritual event not to be seen by the physically living - would not the whole body of believers be "caught up" to this revelation too, to know it had occurred? This is the event that marks when the body of Christ would forever be with the Lord - both the quick and the dead. Are we not even now with the Lord? Some however have not the understanding of this revelation and think of it as something still future. In Paul & John's day it was future and was to be accompanied by signs so that the people would know when it arrived. Those signs and their fulfillment have been given to us. If we could only "see" them...

Clifton
Jun 29th 2008, 06:01 PM
As many of you here know I use to be a pre-trib, pre-mill. I have changed my position to post-trib, a-mill.

Well there goes to underlying Greek of "sudden[-ly]" and "thief in the night" out of the window.:o


Reason #1 : II peter 3:10 says


The only way I see to reconcile this verse with the pre-mill position is to say that the "day of the lord" includes the thousand years. The problem I see with that is as a pre-miller, I always saw the millenium as something positive. From studying the "day of the Lord" and all the passages involving the day of the Lord, I can not see the day of the Lord as being something positive nor something I want to be involved in. Therefore I have trouble reconciling II peter 3:10 with being pre-mill.

Reason #2 - A few times on this forum I have asked the question, "For post -tribbers, what is the purpose of the rapture, if we are going to just go up there and come right back down to earth? Why go up there if we are just going to come right back down?" I did not feel that any of the answers given to that question was satisfactory. What I feel the correct answer to that question is that we never come back to this earth after we are raptured. I believe that the new heavens and earth is already created and when we are raptured from this earth, we go directly there without ever coming back to this earth. After we are raptured, the current heaven and earth is completely burned up never to be seen again.

In II cor. 12:2-4, the apostle Paul saw a vision of a person being raptured:


In Paul's vision, this person was "harpazo" or caught up directly to the new heaven and earth. This causes me to think that when we are raptured, we meet the lord in the air and go directly to the new heaven and earth (which God has already created in preparation for us).


Something I still strongly disagree with many (not all) a-millers on is concerning the future tribulation. I still believe there will be a future tribulation and a "man of sin" who will try to play God. Also, something I will not do after changing my position from pre-trib, is disrepect my brothers and sisters who are still pre-trib and view those believers as second class Christians as many people who are not pre-trib do. I know that pre-trib believers get their viewpoint from how they interpret scripture so to say that pre-tribbers do not get their viewpoint from scripture is pure nonsense. I just see it a little differently at this point and time."Raptured" Saints are those whom go to be with the Lord forever. Tribulation Saints are Martyrs, and the teaching since the Earlier Centuries is that "Martyrs" will be those which enter into the Messianic Era (or, "millennium"), and that they are the only saints to enter into that Era and participate in the first resurrection, but there will be new converts of course. Also since the Earlier Centuries this teaching was argued against by two other types;

Anyway, after the second resurrection (which will be the non-martyred saints and sinners), there will be judgment - saints, of course, receive "rewards" then. So, "Raptured" Saints do NOT get put "back down" onto this Planet Earth, but however, will be here for
the New Earth/Heaven/Earth.


All right, I am ready rebuttals from all sides. Slam me. Shoot me. (that's symbolic. no one knows where I live. :lol:)So this "change of mind" of yours, did it come "suddenly" like a "thief in the night" and did you see it coming?:lol:

Blessings.

Mograce2U
Jun 29th 2008, 06:24 PM
Clifton,
The martyred saints were those waiting for their blood to be avenged. They were told that they would have to wait for this until their brethern had been killed like they were. This is a recompense they were waiting for when the punishment comes to fit the crime. Those who kill with the sword, will be killed by the sword. Who were these adversaries of the early saints? Was it not their brethren who persecuted them? The ones who were a part of the same generation who saw the arrival of Messiah?

Micah makes mention of an interesting reason for the 40 year gap in the 70th week of Daniel:

(Micah 7:14-16 KJV) Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old. {15} According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I show unto him marvellous things. {16} The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.

Ps 78 gives a good summary of the marvelous things which the children of Israel saw during their 40 years in the wilderness when God was with them. The gospel going forth to the Gentiles was also a time of signs and wonders done by the Apostles. Both periods seem to deal with Israel's unbelief at these things.

Clifton
Jun 29th 2008, 08:10 PM
Clifton,
The martyred saints were those waiting for their blood to be avenged.

Yes, I am aware of the section between the 5th and 6th Seals, for most text types (at least).


They were told that they would have to wait for this until their brethern had been killed like they were. And their “fellowservants” as well - until the course until that symbolic number of 144000 is met (those "about" to be killed), those that “are yet to be cut off” will be in the Tribulation. Obviously, as to where they are "waiting", I think not that our human minds can conceive any perceivable term, but the usual ancient ones are "chambers" or "treasuries."


This is a recompense they were waiting for when the punishment comes to fit the crime. Those who kill with the sword, will be killed by the sword. Who were these adversaries of the early saints? Was it not their brethren who persecuted them? The ones who were a part of the same generation who saw the arrival of Messiah?Don't quite follow you here, but that could be because I accidentally took the whole pill this morning instead of half. :P


Micah makes mention of an interesting reason for the 40 year gap in the 70th week of Daniel:Because of the Hebrew and that it refers to "blocks of seven" (Sabbath year cycles), that would allow/cause "gaps", or a period or periods between the blocks. It depended on the Sabbath and Jubilee cycles and when they fell. There were three sections of these "blocks of seven" that occurred;


(Micah 7:14-16 KJV) Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old. {15} According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I show unto him marvellous things. {16} The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.

Ps 78 gives a good summary of the marvelous things which the children of Israel saw during their 40 years in the wilderness when God was with them. The gospel going forth to the Gentiles was also a time of signs and wonders done by the Apostles. Both periods seem to deal with Israel's unbelief at these things.Micah 5:2,13 (and the Targum to verse 2) plays a role here as well.

Anyway, (something that strays away from most English Bibles), starting out, there were more “Jews” than "gentiles" (goyim) that were receptive and believed - obviously so, those with guarded open minds and eyes saw whom Yeshua was, so where more receptive than other nationalities would have been - though, them being all Goyim, would mean a great number (considering the “totality”) in calculating those that were/are receptive;
It seems it always the case the receptive ones are on the narrow path and there are few, so a brush can be broad unto others. The Messianic Scriptures (NT) were (and are) divided out (though mixed in the current standard canon), some of the books to the Jews, and some of the books to the Gentiles.

Anyway, not sure what this has to do with “positioning (or relocating) the stage of the rapture in the Second Advent”, but thanks for the input and scripture quotations. I may change my position also… to PAN-TRIB. :D

Blessings.

cwb
Jun 29th 2008, 10:26 PM
Well there goes to underlying Greek of "sudden[-ly]" and "thief in the night" out of the window.:o

"Raptured" Saints are those whom go to be with the Lord forever. Tribulation Saints are Martyrs, and the teaching since the Earlier Centuries is that "Martyrs" will be those which enter into the Messianic Era (or, "millennium"), and that they are the only saints to enter into that Era and participate in the first resurrection, but there will be new converts of course. Also since the Earlier Centuries this teaching was argued against by two other types;

Anyway, after the second resurrection (which will be the non-martyred saints and sinners), there will be judgment - saints, of course, receive "rewards" then. So, "Raptured" Saints do NOT get put "back down" onto this Planet Earth, but however, will be here for
the New Earth/Heaven/Earth.

So this "change of mind" of yours, did it come "suddenly" like a "thief in the night" and did you see it coming?:lol:

Blessings.

Not sure if you noticed my post #32 in this same thread. Anyways, could you expand on what you mean by the underlying Greek for "suddenly" and "thief in the night"

cwb
Jun 29th 2008, 10:28 PM
cwb, #1 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1680507&postcount=1)
Paul's explanation of being caught up in 2 Cor 12 ought to give us a big clue of what he is talking about later in 1 Thes 4:17 at the time the dead are raised. Here this catching up is obviously of one living, as it pertains to visions and revelations of the Lord and our understanding of them. Both Paul and John experienced this catching up to receive visions and revelations of the Lord. And both continued to live in the flesh afterwards.

But when the dead were raised - a spiritual event not to be seen by the physically living - would not the whole body of believers be "caught up" to this revelation too, to know it had occurred? This is the event that marks when the body of Christ would forever be with the Lord - both the quick and the dead. Are we not even now with the Lord? Some however have not the understanding of this revelation and think of it as something still future. In Paul & John's day it was future and was to be accompanied by signs so that the people would know when it arrived. Those signs and their fulfillment have been given to us. If we could only "see" them...

Are you saying that you believe that I Thess 4 and the "catching up" has already happened?

Raybob
Jun 29th 2008, 11:20 PM
If the millennium was past, it would have to have a begining, and for that to happen Satan must first deceive the nations by the power he gives to the beast and the false prophet, if they are yet to come then Satan cannot be bound, and the millennium has not yet begun.

The beginning of the millennium was at the cross when Satan was bound from deceiving the gentiles (nations). The Greek for Nations in Rev. 20 was "ethnos" which was translated to mean "gentiles" in almost every other case in the NT. Before the cross, Satan had free reign to deceive the gentiles about God, who He was and how to get to Him. After the cross, Satan was bound from that ability. Yes, he still temps and uses all his other tricks but since the cross he can no longer deceive the gentile nations of how they too can sit on spiritual thrones in the Kingdom of God.

Raybob

Clifton
Jun 30th 2008, 12:01 AM
Not sure if you noticed my post #32 in this same thread.

Yes, but it only referred to the Messianic Era (or, "Millennium").


Anyways, could you expand on what you mean by the underlying Greek for "suddenly" and "thief in the night"Unexpected and unheralded.

If the Lord's "Day" began after the Second Advent, it could not come as a “thief in the night”, unexpected and unheralded, since that particular event is preceded by signs (1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10). The only way these events could occur unexpectedly would be for them to begin immediately after the rapture of the Church. Thus, that is why the rapture precedes the last and terrible tribulation;

The "Day" of the Lord (which BTW, occurs simultaneously with the "Day" of Christ), therefore, is that extended period of time when God begins to deal with Israel after the rapture of the Church. It also continues through the Second Advent and the Messianic Era which precedes the creation of the New Earth, Heaven, and Jerusalem, which despite what occurs before, that is what we look (“await”) for (2 Peter 3:13, “BUT…”, which contrasts the previous verses before.);

Zechariah 14:1-4 explains that the events of the Second Advent are included in the program of the Day of the Lord, so that is why it occurs simultaneously with the Day of Christ;

That's the Greek side of it, but "how long" (by our view of time) this "day" lasts, no one knows. Some believe in the 6-days of creation = 6000 years of creation, then a Sabbath afterwards. Indeed, the year in Israel is now 5768; Example:

The Power of Seven and Twelve

The first observation, and probably the most obvious, is the ubiquitous use of the number seven. In rabbinic, mystical and ancient Jewish thought, seven is a special number. It primarily stands for cycles of perfection as in seven days of creation, since the "rest period" is always included as a "day". The word for Sabbath (Shabbat) actually means seven, as in the seventh day of the week, but its other meaning as a time to rest also signifies the end of a cycle of time.

We have also seen how the concept of Shabbat is closely tied to Shalom (peace), because both share the idea of completeness and perfection. In the New Testament, Y'shua uttered the Aramaic phrase m'shalam, or "It is accomplished!" Most Christians also don't grasp the significance of six hours on the cross, one for each day of the week, followed by a time of rest! (Page 59, of A RUACH QADIM EXCERPT: PART (Aramaic letter here): EXPLORING NEW TESTAMENT TRANSMISSION TRENDS; By Andrew Gabriel Roth; Copyright © 2002, 2003)
Blessings.

vinsight4u8
Jun 30th 2008, 12:03 AM
The day of the Lord will only come as unexpected on the wicked.
The brethren are not to be in darkness as to that day.

Clifton
Jun 30th 2008, 12:15 AM
The day of the Lord will only come as unexpected on the wicked.
The brethren are not to be in darkness as to that day.

No such thing in the integral of the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures, in fact, such a thing opposes it, since it would require rewriting it.

Blessings.

vinsight4u8
Jun 30th 2008, 12:25 AM
1 Thessalonians 5:4
"But ye, brethren are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

"...If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."
Rev. 3:3
(so if the church watches, she will know the hour)

vinsight4u8
Jun 30th 2008, 12:27 AM
The wicked will not be watching the signs =- for they will be busy sending gifts to each othercelebrating the slaying of the two witnesses when Jesus Christ arrives.

Rev. 11 - shows the wicked people send gifts

Raybob
Jun 30th 2008, 12:49 AM
Yes, but it only referred to the Messianic Era (or, "Millennium").

Unexpected and unheralded.

If the Lord's "Day" began after the Second Advent, it could not come as a “thief in the night”, unexpected and unheralded, since that particular event is preceded by signs (1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10). The only way these events could occur unexpectedly would be for them to begin immediately after the rapture of the Church. Thus, that is why the rapture precedes the last and terrible tribulation;

The "Day" of the Lord (which BTW, occurs simultaneously with the "Day" of Christ), therefore, is that extended period of time when God begins to deal with Israel after the rapture of the Church. It also continues through the Second Advent and the Messianic Era which precedes the creation of the New Earth, Heaven, and Jerusalem, which despite what occurs before, that is what we look (“await”) for (2 Peter 3:13, “BUT…”, which contrasts the previous verses before.);

Zechariah 14:1-4 explains that the events of the Second Advent are included in the program of the Day of the Lord, so that is why it occurs simultaneously with the Day of Christ;


I believe you are mixing apples and oranges. In the OT, the "Day of the Lord" they were expecting was the first advent of Christ. In the NT, the "Day of the Lord" speaks of judgment day or the second advent.

Raybob

Clifton
Jun 30th 2008, 01:14 AM
1 Thessalonians 5:4
"But ye, brethren are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

Right, "overtake" you. This does not change the Greek Text that the "day" comes unexpectedly and UNHERALDED. Saints and Sinners are here together on Planet Earth. The meaning does not refer to people, but the "day".


"...If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."
Rev. 3:3
(so if the church watches, she will know the hour)You have broken the verse up. Why? Let's look at it in context, restoring 16:5 to its proper place, but most importantly, the context:
(1) “And to the messenger of the assembly in Sardis write:
“He who has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars says these things:
“I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. (2) Wake up, and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. (3ab) Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it, and repent. (16:15) Behold, I come like a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his clothes, so that he doesn’t walk naked, and they see his shame. (3c) If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you.
This is an admonition - it is generally given in various areas of scripture using the PRESENT TENSE - INDICATIVE MOOD, which is LINEAR and includes saints of ALL times and ages, EVERYDAY - In short, be watchful, "ready to go" from this life, in some way or another, because you do not know when He will come to take you to be with Him - the meaning also indicates in other ways too, like to comfort and help in troublesome times, or to prepare you for a trial, and so on.


The wicked will not be watching the signs =- for they will be busy sending gifts to each other celebrating the slaying of the two witnesses when Jesus Christ arrives.

Rev. 11 - shows the wicked people send gifts

As I said, does not changed the Greek. If the Lord's "Day" began after the Second Advent, it could not come as a “thief in the night”, unexpected and unheralded, since that particular event is preceded by signs (1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10). The only way these events could occur unexpectedly would be for them to begin immediately after the rapture of the Church. Thus, that is why the rapture precedes the last and terrible tribulation;

"Signs" does not dilute the Greek of what is to come unheralded... Take people whom have relatives that come to visit – they can expect them at any time, but those relatives come unexpectedly at times (is that a good enough analogy?) – Not everybody phones first before they come. Another analogy, though more horrible, and in re of my statement `be "ready to go" from this life, in some way or another`, someone 'ready to go' may be traveling down the road, and SUDDENLY a car runs a STOP sign, and kills them. Their life was taken out suddenly, but they were ready, thus, go to a better place.

Remember, the Scriptures were not originally written in English, especially Old English, or any English - those come from Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, of which I refer to.;)

Blessings.

Clifton
Jun 30th 2008, 01:19 AM
I believe you are mixing apples and oranges.

Nope, sharing it from the Hebrew and Greek of it.


In the OT, the "Day of the Lord" they were expecting was the first advent of Christ. In the NT, the "Day of the Lord" speaks of judgment day or the second advent.
Raybob

The Tanak (OT) speaks of both Advents of Yeshua. The Second Advent, or "Parousia" consists of "stages" which began after Yeshua's was resurrected from the dead. The final stages are in the End of times.

Blessings.

Raybob
Jun 30th 2008, 01:23 AM
... The Second Advent, or "Parousia" consists of "stages" which began after Yeshua's was resurrected from the dead. The final stages are in the End of times.

Blessings.

Not according to the plain words of Jesus:

Joh 5:28-29
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Raybob

Clifton
Jun 30th 2008, 01:41 AM
Not according to the plain words of Jesus:

Joh 5:28-29
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Raybob

Only the Sheep hear His voice. And if Yeshua spoke "English", that "plain English" is long gone. ;) There is a lapse of time between resurrections. I can address that if you wish, and you can confirm this with your Greek resources, or from someone that has such resources. But first, if you understand Greek (as I and others do), you will understand what the Linear verbs mean (progressive - continuous (http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm#TENSE)) - also note, as for the noun, Parousia, that includes the meaning of "presence" (the verb ερχομαι, and the various conjugations of it as well, can also mean "presence", but typically, when converted to English, will be rendered as "come" or "go" {or their English forms of those words}):

Here’s from the WDNT (also referred to as TCWDNT or KDNT) Greek Dictionary (for English Readers) for Strong’s #3952, PAROUSIA, which provides an exegetical of the word as well (I've quoted some it already, or at least close to it):

3952. παρουσια parousía; genitive. parousías, feminine noun from paron (particple of páreimi [3918], to be present) present, presence, a being present, a coming to a place. Presence, coming or arrival.

(I) A coming or visit (1 Cor. 16:17; 2 Cor. 7:6, 7; Phil. 1:26, a return visit).

(II) A technical term used of the coming of Christ (Matt. 24:3; 1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 2:19; 2 Thess. 2:8; 2 Pet. 3:4; 1 John 2:28); the Son of Man (Matt. 24:27, 37, 39); the Lord (1 Thess. 3:13; 4:15; 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:1; James 5:7, 8; 2 Pet. 1:16); the day of God (2 Pet. 3:12). The term parousía refers to the Second Coming of the Lord, but the Second Coming is not just one event taking place at a particular time. Rather it is made up of a series of events. We can understand which event is referred to only by a careful examination of the context in which the terms parousía or érchomai ([2064], to come) occur.

The comings of the Lord spoken of prior to His death and resurrection may be distinguished as follows:

(A) His coming after His death to confirm the faith of His disciples. In this instance proáxo, the future tense of the verb proágö (4254), to lead or go before, is used (Matt. 26:32; Mark 14:28). In John 16:16 ópsesthe, the future tense of the verb horáō (3708), to see, or optánomai (3700), to see with one’s physical eyes, is used.

(B) His coming to enter into a closer spiritual fellowship with His disciples {sic: i.e. “Presence”}. As the Risen One, He was to return to them and to abide with them continually (John 14:16-22) manifesting His presence through the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, and thereby guiding, teaching and sustaining them by His grace working in their hearts (John 14:16, 17; 15:26; 16:14). In this sense the Lord Jesus regarded His coming again as a vital experience to be shared by all believers in later generations. He thereby signified His abiding presence in the hearts of believers and corporately in the Christian church.

(C) His coming to remove His disciples from their toils and struggles on earth and to take them to the place He would prepare for them in His Father’s house (John 14:2, 3, “that where I am, there ye may be also”). This is what is referred to as the parousía of the Lord in 1 Thess. 4:15. This coming is going to be startling and unexpected. The Lord will come to raise the dead in Christ, to transform the living who have believed, and to take them all to be with Him (1 Cor. 15:50-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17). This will constitute the Day of Christ or the Day of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Cor. 1:14; Phil. 1:6, 10; 2:16; 2 Thess. 2:2). Simultaneously, however, there will begin a time of great suffering for those unbelievers who are alive at the time of the parousía. This is called the Day of the Lord (Isa. 2:12; 13:6,9; Ezek. 13:5; 30:3; Joel 1:15; 2:1, 11, 31; 3:14; Amos 5:18, 20; Obad. 1:15; Zeph. 1:7, 14; Zech. 14:1; Mal. 4:5; Acts 2:20; 1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Pet. 3:10). The phrases “that day” or “the day” or “the great day” occur more than seventy-five times in the Hebrew Scriptures (OT). All these passages speak of the period of the Tribulation and include judgments that extend over a period of time prior to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus (which itself constitutes another time of His coming). Zech. 14:1-4 makes it clear that the events of the Second Advent are included in the program of the “Day of the Lord.” 2 Pet. 3:10 appears to include the entire millennial age within this period.

(D) The coming of the Lord at the end of the seven-year tribulation period is what the Lord describes in Matt. 24:15-22, 32-34; Mark 13:14-23, 29, 30 (cf. Luke 19:41-44; 21:20-23, 32, 33; 23:28-30). The judgment of the Lord is designated as a specific coming by the verb élthë, the aorist subjunctive of érchomai (2064) indicating that this specific coming is prior to the final judgment of the world. This coming is also called apokálupsis (602), revelation (Rom. 2:5; 8:19; 1 Cor. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:7, 13; 4:13) and epipháneia (2015), manifestation (2 Thess. 2:8; 1 Tim. 6:14; 2 Tim. 1:10; 4:1, 8; Titus 2:13). This is going to be the Last Day and will bring about the termination of the existing order of things.

Thus the coming of the Lord or His Parousía consists of several comings which are in reality stages of a continuous process.

(III) Of the coming or manifestation of the man of sin (2 Thess. 2:9 [cf. 2 Thess 2:3]).

Synonym.: éleusis (1660), coming {sic: also a Noun}.
Antonym.: apousia (666), absence. {sic: eerie!}.

A Brief Review of: The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary New Testament, pp.1123:1 to 1124:2, Zodhiates, AMG International. 1992 KDNT.

Hope that helps.

Blessings.

Mograce2U
Jun 30th 2008, 01:51 AM
Are you saying that you believe that I Thess 4 and the "catching up" has already happened?Yes, I think what Paul was talking about to those people who would see the signs has already occurred.

yoSAMite
Jun 30th 2008, 02:04 AM
The beginning of the millennium was at the cross when Satan was bound from deceiving the gentiles (nations). The Greek for Nations in Rev. 20 was "ethnos" which was translated to mean "gentiles" in almost every other case in the NT. Before the cross, Satan had free reign to deceive the gentiles about God, who He was and how to get to Him. After the cross, Satan was bound from that ability. Yes, he still temps and uses all his other tricks but since the cross he can no longer deceive the gentile nations of how they too can sit on spiritual thrones in the Kingdom of God.
Hello Raybob,
I'm not familiar with this line of thinking so I'd like to ask some questions.

From what I'm understanding you have the millennium and Daniel's 70th week happening concurrently. Is that correct?

How do you come to understanding that at the cross satan lost the ability to deceive the nations?

Thanks

My heart's Desire
Jun 30th 2008, 03:08 AM
The 70th week being separated from the other 69 by a gap of over 2000 years is the biggest loophole of all. There are no gaps in time in bible prophecy. Please tell me just what other prophecy has a gap in time besides that one if it really did?

Raybob
Try reading through your OT, the gospels and then skip the rest to read Revelation and you will be reading seeing it without a gap otherwise throw in to your reading the whole Bible including the letters that Paul wrote and you will find the gap between the 69th week and the 70th. That gap is the age of Grace of which the Church is growing.

My heart's Desire
Jun 30th 2008, 03:20 AM
The beginning of the millennium was at the cross when Satan was bound from deceiving the gentiles (nations). The Greek for Nations in Rev. 20 was "ethnos" which was translated to mean "gentiles" in almost every other case in the NT. Before the cross, Satan had free reign to deceive the gentiles about God, who He was and how to get to Him. After the cross, Satan was bound from that ability. Yes, he still temps and uses all his other tricks but since the cross he can no longer deceive the gentile nations of how they too can sit on spiritual thrones in the Kingdom of God.

Raybob
And how does this apply to the Jewish people of today who do not believe in Jesus? Would you not say that their eyes are not still blinded by the god of this world so that they cannot see?

Mograce2U
Jun 30th 2008, 03:28 AM
And how does this apply to the Jewish people of today who do not believe in Jesus? Would you not say that their eyes are not still blinded by the god of this world so that they cannot see?Here is how it applies:

(2 Cor 4:3-4 KJV) But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: {4} In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The blindness comes because of unbelief, it is not the reason for it. IOW it is not blindness that causes their unbelief, rather it is their unbelief that makes them blind. If they would hear the gospel, they would lose this blindness - Rom 10:17. It is because they reject the word of God that the devil is able to make them blind to the truth which they are already unwilling to hear. The hardening of Pharoah's heart is the prime example.

Raybob
Jun 30th 2008, 04:01 AM
Hello Raybob,
I'm not familiar with this line of thinking so I'd like to ask some questions.

From what I'm understanding you have the millennium and Daniel's 70th week happening concurrently. Is that correct?
Actually, I wasn't speaking of the 70th week but of the millennium period beginning at the cross and ending shortly before Christ returns when Satan is released from the pit for a little season.

This is the general accepted amil view. As for the 70th week, most of the amil view believe the 70th week was fulfilled after the 69th and lasted 7 years like the other 69. Personally, I do believe the 70th week began at the cross and is concurrent with the millennium and Satan's little season after the millennium to the return of Christ which makes that last "7" much longer than the other 69 7s.


How do you come to understanding that at the cross satan lost the ability to deceive the nations?

Thanks


I understand that from the Greek word used for the "nations" that are no longer deceived. That word, ethnos, most every other place found in the NT was translated to mean "gentiles". The gentiles were deceived by Satan from knowing God and salvation up until the cross when Satan was bound.

Mar 3:26-27
(26) And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
(27) No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

Raybob

My heart's Desire
Jun 30th 2008, 04:37 AM
Here is how it applies:

(2 Cor 4:3-4 KJV) But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: {4} In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The blindness comes because of unbelief, it is not the reason for it. IOW it is not blindness that causes their unbelief, rather it is their unbelief that makes them blind. If they would hear the gospel, they would lose this blindness - Rom 10:17. It is because they reject the word of God that the devil is able to make them blind to the truth which they are already unwilling to hear. The hardening of Pharoah's heart is the prime example.
And what causes unbelief? Was it not the serpent who deceived Eve into not believing that God meant what He said? Raybob is if I understand correctly saying that if Satan is now bound he can no longer deceive gentiles. Well, if that is true then he would not be able to now deceive anyone including the Jewish people. If satan is now bound how is he still able to blind them when they reject the word of God as you have put forth?

wpm
Jun 30th 2008, 05:16 AM
Hello Raybob,
I'm not familiar with this line of thinking so I'd like to ask some questions.

From what I'm understanding you have the millennium and Daniel's 70th week happening concurrently. Is that correct?

How do you come to understanding that at the cross satan lost the ability to deceive the nations?

Thanks

Revelation 20 is simply referring to the veil or blindfold that sat over the nations before the cross. Before the cross the nations were darkened, now they have been openly and freely availed the Gospel. For 2,000 yrs the Gospel has saturated the Gentile nations. That is it in a nutshell. Satan cannot curtail the spread of the Gospel.

Paul

Raybob
Jun 30th 2008, 06:51 AM
And how does this apply to the Jewish people of today who do not believe in Jesus? Would you not say that their eyes are not still blinded by the god of this world so that they cannot see?

Just the same way it applies to gentiles today. Personally, I'm 50% Jewish by blood. That doesn't make me any different than any one else that comes to the Lord. Back when I was a pre-tribber, I used to think that if I missed the rapture, I might be one of those 144K Israelites. :rofl:

Raybob

Prophecy Man
Jun 30th 2008, 04:57 PM
Hi folks,
I did not want to start a huge discussion on how many times Jesus returns I just wanted to share some knowledge I had on the subject.
I used to defend my position with a passion but now I would rather touch on some things the word says and not tell anyone what it says because they can read like we all can.
I will share this my Mom is in heaven with Jesus but there was a time I was so worried for her because she thought Joseph smith died for her sins also. We would fight over Morman doctrine because she said she could see beyound the veil, God showed her " the truth ".
. I was so upset I stopped visiting her at least for ten years. My wife asked me if I was ever going to visit her again. I was stubborn but my wife made me go visit her. She was serious about it so I made arrangements to visit my Mom In Utah. My Mom wanted to be near " the temple" but she ended up in a nursing home.
I and my wife for about five to six years would visit her and for those years I began to enjoy my Mom and tollorate her Morman beliefs. Then one day I found out God is bigger than any of our efforts to get a person saved. My last visit with her before she passed away I found she no longer looked to Joseph Smith to come and take her out of the grave.
She told me she saw something she said scared her. She said she saw a darkness that scared her because she knew if she died she would go there. She turned to the passage where Jesus said He would recieve us (and herself) to himself. She told me she was trusting that promise which
I think it would have been a wast of time to " now disscuss how many times Jesus will come back". All she knew was Jesus was coming for her now. That was all that mattered because she knew she had a short time.
My Mom passed away not a week later. God's timing is perfect and my prayers were answered for her salvation.
It is silly to discuss how many times Jesus will come back and the word I read says he is. I know believe it when the word says we will suffer tribulation but it also says God knows how to save and deliever us as well.
We are in His hands and that is where I want to be.

Doug

My heart's Desire
Jun 30th 2008, 05:29 PM
Just the same way it applies to gentiles today. Personally, I'm 50% Jewish by blood. That doesn't make me any different than any one else that comes to the Lord. Back when I was a pre-tribber, I used to think that if I missed the rapture, I might be one of those 144K Israelites. :rofl:

Raybob
Well, either way I do not believe that Satan is bound in the sense that he cannot still deceive the nations. I believe he is still doing that today. And if you were to miss the rapture I suppose you could become one of those 144K. But being a christian, you are not going to miss it ;)

John146
Jun 30th 2008, 06:20 PM
Well, either way I do not believe that Satan is bound in the sense that he cannot still deceive the nations. I believe he is still doing that today. And if you were to miss the rapture I suppose you could become one of those 144K. But being a christian, you are not going to miss it ;)Do you believe Satan has been deceiving the nations the same way and to the same extent as he did before Christ came the first time? In other words, do you believe Christ's first coming had much of an impact on Satan's overall ability to deceive the nations?

My heart's Desire
Jun 30th 2008, 06:58 PM
Do you believe Satan has been deceiving the nations the same way and to the same extent as he did before Christ came the first time? In other words, do you believe Christ's first coming had much of an impact on Satan's overall ability to deceive the nations?I'll have to look up scripture and get back to you because I think that opens up a whole different subject.
In unbelievers, yes I think he still has the ability to deceive the nations. If not, then we would not still be seeing rampant murders, thefts, and all the evil that we see. We know that regarding the powers of darkness that the Lord Jesus did certain things at the Cross, putting into subjection powers and authorities, etc and Yet in 1 Corinthians 15:22-25 says that when the end comes the Lord Jesus hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. So it has been done and is yet to be done. I don't think that Satan's ability to deceive unbelievers will end until he is bound either during the 1000 yr period and ultimately in the time when he is forever in the lake of fire for eternity.
You know its like ok, if you take the serpent out of the story of Genesis, you'd have God telling Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree and they just decide well, we're just gonna do it anyway. So if that happened, who do we blame? Well you'd have to blame it on Adam and Eve? Regardless, we do have a serpent. God says don't eat, serpent says "did God really say don't?" and Eve eats.

My heart's Desire
Jun 30th 2008, 07:12 PM
Hi folks,
I did not want to start a huge discussion on how many times Jesus returns I just wanted to share some knowledge I had on the subject.
I used to defend my position with a passion but now I would rather touch on some things the word says and not tell anyone what it says because they can read like we all can.
I will share this my Mom is in heaven with Jesus but there was a time I was so worried for her because she thought Joseph smith died for her sins also. We would fight over Morman doctrine because she said she could see beyound the veil, God showed her " the truth ".
. I was so upset I stopped visiting her at least for ten years. My wife asked me if I was ever going to visit her again. I was stubborn but my wife made me go visit her. She was serious about it so I made arrangements to visit my Mom In Utah. My Mom wanted to be near " the temple" but she ended up in a nursing home.
I and my wife for about five to six years would visit her and for those years I began to enjoy my Mom and tollorate her Morman beliefs. Then one day I found out God is bigger than any of our efforts to get a person saved. My last visit with her before she passed away I found she no longer looked to Joseph Smith to come and take her out of the grave.
She told me she saw something she said scared her. She said she saw a darkness that scared her because she knew if she died she would go there. She turned to the passage where Jesus said He would recieve us (and herself) to himself. She told me she was trusting that promise which
I think it would have been a wast of time to " now disscuss how many times Jesus will come back". All she knew was Jesus was coming for her now. That was all that mattered because she knew she had a short time.
My Mom passed away not a week later. God's timing is perfect and my prayers were answered for her salvation.
It is silly to discuss how many times Jesus will come back and the word I read says he is. I know believe it when the word says we will suffer tribulation but it also says God knows how to save and deliever us as well.
We are in His hands and that is where I want to be.

Doug
Hi, Doug
I really appreciate your experience.
We are discussing the Lord's return however we do it because we all Love the Lord, and are called to study to show ourselves approved and to rightly divide the Word. We don't consider that a waste of time. It may look as if we are arguing but we really are only discussing our viewpoints as we all seek to understand God and His word through His word and through others understanding of it. I don't guess I have scripture proof of it, but I believe God is pleased when we spend all this time reading and discussing His Word with our brothers and sisters in Christ.
Join us!

John146
Jun 30th 2008, 07:13 PM
I'll have to look up scripture and get back to you because I think that opens up a whole different subject.To you it may be a different subject but to me that is what the deceiving of the nations relates to: Satan no longer being able to deceive the nations and keep them in nearly complete spiritual darkness as he had before Christ came.



In unbelievers, yes I think he still has the ability to deceive the nations.I believe he can deceive and has been for a long time, but I'm looking at it from the angle of what extent he was able to deceive before and after Christ came and whether the extent of his ability to deceive can have something to do with what Revelation 20 is speaking about (which I believe it does).



If not, then we would not still be seeing rampant murders, thefts, and all the evil that we see. We know that regarding the powers of darkness that the Lord Jesus did certain things at the Cross, putting into subjection powers and authorities, etc and Yet in 1 Corinthians 15:22-25 says that when the end comes the Lord Jesus hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. So it has been done and is yet to be done. I don't think that Satan's ability to deceive unbelievers will end until he is bound either during the 1000 yr period and ultimately in the time when he is forever in the lake of fire for eternity.
You know its like ok, if you take the serpent out of the story of Genesis, you'd have God telling Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree and they just decide well, we're just gonna do it anyway. So if that happened, who do we blame? Well you'd have to blame it on Adam and Eve? Regardless, we do have a serpent. God says don't eat, serpent says "did God really say don't?" and Eve eats.Are you trying to say that Satan was at fault for what happened with Adam and Eve and not Adam and Eve themselves and therefore they could use the "devil made me do it" excuse?

Firstfruits
Jun 30th 2008, 09:35 PM
To you it may be a different subject but to me that is what the deceiving of the nations relates to: Satan no longer being able to deceive the nations and keep them in nearly complete spiritual darkness as he had before Christ came.

I believe he can deceive and has been for a long time, but I'm looking at it from the angle of what extent he was able to deceive before and after Christ came and whether the extent of his ability to deceive can have something to do with what Revelation 20 is speaking about (which I believe it does).

Are you trying to say that Satan was at fault for what happened with Adam and Eve and not Adam and Eve themselves and therefore they could use the "devil made me do it" excuse?

According to what is written, before the millennium Satan has deceived the nations, in other words, before he is bound they are already deceived.

When he is released it will be those that he had deceived before he was bound that he returns to and gathers them for the final battle.

Rev 20:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Remember that the beast and the false prophet are here when Jesus returns.

I hope this is helpful.

Michael

yoSAMite
Jul 1st 2008, 12:51 AM
Thanks Raybob and Paul,

I think I understand what you're saying, but I'm having a difficult time agreeing with it.

a sojourner
Jul 1st 2008, 02:18 AM
The first few posts in this thread were great - and then it was hijacked by yet another debate...

cwb - I started out not knowing what I believed. Then I was taught to hold the Post-trib, Pre-millenialist viewpoint. Then I met my friend Amillenialist Steve, and he taught me that most Amillenialists still wake up every morning, eat a bowl of cereal, shower consistently and have friends, just like I did. Then I saw a few posts here on the 'boards by Matthew94. I don't know if he's still around (I haven't been around here myself much lately), but he holds the Partial-Preterist viewpoint. Turns out, the stuff he was saying made a whole lot of sense to me, too.

So what am I? Well, on Sundays and Mondays I'm Post-trib, Pre-millenialist. Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays I am a Partial-Preterist. Wednesdays and Fridays I like to get down like only an Amillenialist can.

But everyday of the week I love Jesus and long for His imminent return. The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." Come quickly Jesus, however it looks.

My heart's Desire
Jul 1st 2008, 04:39 AM
To you it may be a different subject but to me that is what the deceiving of the nations relates to: Satan no longer being able to deceive the nations and keep them in nearly complete spiritual darkness as he had before Christ came.

I believe he can deceive and has been for a long time, but I'm looking at it from the angle of what extent he was able to deceive before and after Christ came and whether the extent of his ability to deceive can have something to do with what Revelation 20 is speaking about (which I believe it does).

Are you trying to say that Satan was at fault for what happened with Adam and Eve and not Adam and Eve themselves and therefore they could use the "devil made me do it" excuse?
oh, ok well I think he can still deceive the nations and that only God can open the eyes of the blind. And I think he still can deceive as he always has and will until Christ returns.
And no I'm not saying Satan was at fault.
So what does the extent matter, before or after Christ, if Adam and Eve could have sinned with or without the serpent's deception?

Anyway, why I said to me its a different subject is because when Christ died and rose again, in the spiritual realm, there were some powers that were defeated, so good question.