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Marvin
Jun 22nd 2008, 09:19 PM
Hell. Hell, Hell, Hell, Hell, Hell…. OK, enough of the Bart Simpson impression. ;) :lol:

What does Hell mean to you? Is it a place of eternal suffering/torture. Is it a simple execution? Ie death by fire. Or is it perhaps just the grave as suggested in the OT?

I myself cannot see the doctrine of eternal suffering in hell, representing a loving, merciful and just God. That just goes against everything I know about Jesus. It astonishes me how many Christians actually believe Hell to be such a place. They will defend this viewpoint as if it was sacred and will pull a lot of scriptures out of context to back up that horrible doctrine.

However I think the most famous verse in the bible quite clearly contradicts the idea of Hell being a place of eternal torment:


John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, so that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life.

Note the words “not perish”. This scripture is quite clearly saying that only those who believe will have eternal life. All the rest will perish. This means they will NOT have eternal life. Seeing as eternal suffering in Hell is a form of eternal life, to see the word “perish” as meaning that is turning this scripture into a paradox. In fact it makes it nonsensical.


so that whosoever believes in him will not have everlasting life, but have everlasting life.

See? It just doesn’t make sense. For it to make sense in the context it is, it would have to read something like:


So that whosoever believes in him will not have eternal suffering in Hell, but have everlasting life in paradise

To me Jesus words are quite clear. He is showing a contrast here. Only those who believe will have eternal life. No one else will!

So my question is, how can anyone believe Hell to be a place of eternal torment? Can you provide scriptures taken in context that actually support this notion? My scripture was words said by Jesus himself.

Also, why would you choose to believe in such a hideous doctrine as Hell being a place of eternal suffering when scripture supports Hell as a place where unbelievers will perish – more of an execution than eternal torture. For that matter, why not take Hell as being “the grave” as defined in the OT? Is it that important that you should take a pagan notion like eternal suffering in Hell and attempt to represent it as Christ’s consequence for not believing in him?

Petey
Jun 22nd 2008, 10:12 PM
Marvin I'm sorry to say it but I side with everyone else here (the people who posted about this on my post that got off track). Look at the definition for perish given on one of those posts. It doesn't just mean death- eternal suffering is also perishing. Examine without bias all the verses given in those posts and see what they are saying. I think the meaning was made quite crystal clear by God, who inspired the verses. One more thing- God doesn't run Hell- Satan does. I don't think Satan's going to have some lazy-boys and plasma screens set up for his "subjects". We get one chance and one chance only- that's exactly why our job of spreading the gospel as giving by Jesus is SO IMPORTANT. God cannot stand for any corruption in his Holy dwelling-Heaven- we HAVE to accept Jesus's protection.

Marvin
Jun 22nd 2008, 10:40 PM
Marvin I'm sorry to say it but I side with everyone else here (the people who posted about this on my post that got off track). Look at the definition for perish given on one of those posts. It doesn't just mean death- eternal suffering is also perishing.
I think I've shown quite adequately in my example above that to say that the word "perish" means "eternal suffering" makes John 3:16 nonsensical.

In that other thread the Strongs meaning of "Perish" was shown and one of the definitions was that "perishing" was "suffering in hell for all eternity". However I would suggest this meaning has come about as a result of the doctrone of Hell being a place of eternal suffering. Definitely not from any standard meaning of the word. The dictionary meaning does not include that definition.



Examine without bias all the verses given in those posts and see what they are saying.
The problem is people who quote those verses are examining it with their own bias. I choose to look at it without any preconcieved ideas of what Hell is. The person who quoted those verses took them way out of context and I believe I adequately demonstrated that.



I think the meaning was made quite crystal clear by God, who inspired the verses.
I agree. i don't think we should change the meaning of the word "perish" so that it agrees with a particular doctrine. I prefer to take Jesus's words at face value. It is crystal clear to me that Jesus gives eternal life only to believers, not unbelievers.



One more thing- God doesn't run Hell- Satan does. I don't think Satan's going to have some lazy-boys and plasma screens set up for his "subjects".
Where do you get the believe that Satan runs Hell? Do you have scripture to back that up?

Also what made you think that I would see Hell as a place where people hang out with their buddies? I definitely don't believe it's going to be a nice place to be, but it will be over quickly. No hanging around to be tortured brutally for all eternity.

Satan most definitely does not run Hell and it will be the place he is thrown into later on, along with all unbelievers. I think this scripture shows who is in charge when it comes to Hell.


Matthew 13:40-42: "Just as the weeds are separated out and burned, so it will be at the end of the world. I, the Son of Man, will send my angels, and they will remove from my Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil, and they will throw them into the furnace and burn them. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

This is very final. There is no hanging around in eternal torment and it shows that Jesus angels are in control, ready to do his bidding.



We get one chance and one chance only- that's exactly why our job of spreading the gospel as giving by Jesus is SO IMPORTANT. God cannot stand for any corruption in his Holy dwelling-Heaven- we HAVE to accept Jesus's protection.
Yes, but unnecessary scare tactics is not going to bring faithful believers. People who enter the faith due to these tactics, don't normally stay in it very long. The doctrine of Hell being a place of permanent torment for unbelievers is a false one and a pagan one and I would suggest it deters more people from worshiping Christ than what it brings.

A further question I would ask is how do you think you are going to enjoy eternity in Heaven knowing that loved ones a in agony, suffering torment while you live a life of bliss? Do you think you'd really enjoy that? What about a child you may have who may reject Christ? Your beloved child writhing in intense agony for all eternity. Or do you think God is going to wipe your memory of these people?

I would personally prefer to look on God as merciful, just and loving, not someone who is willing that all unbelievers suffer for eternity.

Oma
Jun 22nd 2008, 11:34 PM
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Forever and ever doesn't sound very temporary to me.


Marvin wrote:
I would personally prefer to look on God as merciful, just and loving, not someone who is willing that all unbelievers suffer for eternity.

What you personally prefer doesn't enter into the truth of the matter. Your thoughts of God and what every sin deserves are inadequate and too human.:note:


Death in Scripture is not necesarily speaking of cessation of being.
The literal reading of Gen.2:17 - the first time die occurs in the Bible (rule of first mention)
and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'

Adam did not die physically when he ate the forbidden fruit. He did die spiritually; that is, his spirit was separated from God, such as every unbeliever is today. That is true death - to be separated from God Who is the source of all blessing. When we die physically the body is separated from the spirit. Therefore eternal death is not annialation but eternal separation from God and all goodness.

Petey
Jun 23rd 2008, 02:15 AM
Good points Oma. When the Bible mentions death it is very rarely using it in the literal sense. I agree, Marvin, that eternal suffering in Hell just doesn't seem like something God would let anyone go through. However, you have to think, God is the essence of holiness, and anything unholy absolutely cannot be tolerated by him. With the way God made the world in the beginning Hell wouldn't even have been a possibility- when we were without sin we had no reason to be seperated from God. We (humankind) changed those circumstances- God still had mercy on us, though- He offered his only Son for us so that eternal life could still be ours. Jesus made himself our scapegoat. ALL we have to do is believe in and love God. The problem is how can you reach everyone in time?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would be interested, too, to hear some thoughts on why Hell is set up as not only a place of eternal separation from God, but also as a place of eternal suffering. Why is simply getting those who refuse God out of His presence not sufficient in the long run? Or even destroying them with immediate death of the spirit like Marvin would like to believe?

Additionally, I would be interested to hear any thoughts on what happens to those who die never even having heard of God. That is our fault, is it not?
How about the mentally handicapped who are not capable of understanding?

I cannot think of any scriptures addressing these issues- anyone with knowledge of pertaining verses in the Bible please share if you would.

Yours in Christ,
Petey

Forgiven Alaskan
Jun 23rd 2008, 02:26 AM
the soul/spirit can never die although the body can. Jesus talked about Hell. He said in Matthew 10:28
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

calidog
Jun 23rd 2008, 02:40 AM
How would you interpret this?

Mar 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—
Mar 9:44 where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.'

Athanasius
Jun 23rd 2008, 02:44 AM
If Hell isn't eternal then I'd say that would negatively impact this idea of 'justice'.

calidog
Jun 23rd 2008, 03:03 AM
when we try to minimize what the scriptures say about the righteousness of God we minimize the significance of the cross and we minimize the depth of His love for us. The scripture clearly represent Gods love as eternal and His judgement as eternal.

Oma
Jun 23rd 2008, 03:21 AM
I would be interested, too, to hear some thoughts on why Hell is set up as not only a place of eternal separation from God, but also as a place of eternal suffering. Why is simply getting those who refuse God out of His presence not sufficient in the long run? Or even destroying them with immediate death of the spirit like Marvin would like to believe?

I believe the answer lies in the fact that sin must be atoned for - propitiation made. If a sinner is not covered by Christ's sacrifice then he must atone for it himself and because he is a finite creature it will take an eternity to make atonement for having sinned against an infinite God.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:


Additionally, I would be interested to hear any thoughts on what happens to those who die never even having heard of God. That is our fault, is it not?

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


Rom 9:18

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.




How about the mentally handicapped who are not capable of understanding?


Psa 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.



I cannot think of any scriptures addressing these issues- anyone with knowledge of pertaining verses in the Bible please share if you would.


[/quote]


I don't think the Word is specific on some of those issues you wonder about. We can find comfort in the general truth of those Scriptures I posted and many more besides that; God is just, righteous, merciful, and never makes mistakes!

ariel_jesus237
Jun 23rd 2008, 03:23 AM
Hell is not a doctrine though, well it is not a man-made doctrine it is clearly Biblical and God is loving but as you said, He is just as well and He isn't gonna allow people who rejected Him and chose to die in sin entry into heaven... They knew (some way or another) what awaited them and God has revealed it to us. Hell wasn't made for us, it was made for Satan and his demons but due to the fact we sin and serve Satan by doing so, we go to Hell with him(if we aren't saved from it by faith in Jesus Christ). Hell is real buddy, and people aren't saved by scare tactics only through faith in Christ but if you aren't saved then you will end up there. And Hell isn't even the worst.. the worst is when Satan, the false prophet, the beast, and all the demons and evildoers are thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where they will burn for eternity... yikes! But God loves us and has redeemed us from all that so praise Him :):bounce::pp

th1bill
Jun 23rd 2008, 05:42 AM
Marvin I'm sorry to say it but I side with everyone else here (the people who posted about this on my post that got off track). Look at the definition for perish given on one of those posts. It doesn't just mean death- eternal suffering is also perishing. Examine without bias all the verses given in those posts and see what they are saying. I think the meaning was made quite crystal clear by God, who inspired the verses. One more thing- God doesn't run Hell- Satan does. I don't think Satan's going to have some lazy-boys and plasma screens set up for his "subjects". We get one chance and one chance only- that's exactly why our job of spreading the gospel as giving by Jesus is SO IMPORTANT. God cannot stand for any corruption in his Holy dwelling-Heaven- we HAVE to accept Jesus's protection.
... You're going to need scripture for Satan running Hell but it isn't true. There are at least 150 verses of scripture (see 23 Minutes in Hell for the list) that describe Hell as an eternal place of torment. And God, being a righteous and just God, will reward every man and woman with the choice they have made here on this earth before they died. And as for perishing there, once more you need scripture because scripture does not support your idea,

daughter
Jun 23rd 2008, 10:12 AM
To the OP. Do you believe that a sinner, walking around the earth today, a non believer is alive or dead? He looks alive, he talks like he's alive, he acts like he's alive. But according to the Bible that sinner is "dead in his sins." Life, and life abundant, is not the same thing as existence... and death is not destruction, but ruination, spoiling, a result of rejecting God. We are no longer fit for purpose if we do not have Him. The sinner is not fit for purpose, he is ruined.

Jesus describes conscious hell, using the exact same "forever" that He uses of heaven. You can't redefine hell without redefining heaven. I wish it wasn't so... I really truly do wish it. But it's there. Sorry.

calidog
Jun 23rd 2008, 02:59 PM
How about the mentally handicapped who are not capable of understanding?



Exo 4:10 And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.
Exo 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Exo 4:12 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.

Luk 12:47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared nothimself,neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with manystripes.
Luk 12:48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with fewstripes.For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Marvin
Jun 24th 2008, 04:11 AM
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Forever and ever doesn't sound very temporary to me.

What you need to look carefully at there is the words "Devil that decieved them". This is referring to the Devil and the devil only. The people he decieved are not included in this sentence. This scripture actually backs up my stance that human beings will not be tormented for ever and ever.



Marvin wrote:
I would personally prefer to look on God as merciful, just and loving, not someone who is willing that all unbelievers suffer for eternity.

What you personally prefer doesn't enter into the truth of the matter. Your thoughts of God and what every sin deserves are inadequate and too human.:note:

What we have are two (actually three) different doctrones, all believed by Christians, all who totally believe their doctrones. Christians do not seem to be able to come to a consensus on it, so if there is evidence for all three, why no go with the best doctrine? Isn't it better to err on the side of mercy?



Death in Scripture is not necesarily speaking of cessation of being.
The literal reading of Gen.2:17 - the first time die occurs in the Bible (rule of first mention)
and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'

Adam did not die physically when he ate the forbidden fruit. He did die spiritually; that is, his spirit was separated from God, such as every unbeliever is today. That is true death - to be separated from God Who is the source of all blessing. When we die physically the body is separated from the spirit. Therefore eternal death is not annialation but eternal separation from God and all goodness.
I don't see how you can make the argument about "death" and then use that as evidence to back up the doctrine of eternal suffering. There are times in the bible when the word "die" is very literal.

Marvin
Jun 24th 2008, 04:16 AM
Good points Oma. When the Bible mentions death it is very rarely using it in the literal sense.

I would disagree with this. I also don't see how the alternative meaning of the word "death" would support the idea of eternal suffering either. John 3:16 used the word "perish" which in anyone's vocabularly means ceasing to exist.



I would be interested, too, to hear some thoughts on why Hell is set up as not only a place of eternal separation from God, but also as a place of eternal suffering. Why is simply getting those who refuse God out of His presence not sufficient in the long run? Or even destroying them with immediate death of the spirit like Marvin would like to believe?

Additionally, I would be interested to hear any thoughts on what happens to those who die never even having heard of God. That is our fault, is it not?
How about the mentally handicapped who are not capable of understanding?

I cannot think of any scriptures addressing these issues- anyone with knowledge of pertaining verses in the Bible please share if you would.

Yours in Christ,
Petey
I see you have started a new topic on this. I'm not sure I have any convincing answers to those, but if I do I'll go to your thread.

Marvin
Jun 24th 2008, 04:22 AM
the soul/spirit can never die although the body can. Jesus talked about Hell. He said in Matthew 10:28
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Ah, now there's another good scripture to support the notion that Hell is not eternal suffering.


How would you interpret this?

Mar 9:43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—
Mar 9:44where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.'

Well verse 43 is talking about a fire that shall never be quenched. Definitely not talking about eternal suffering in it. As for the second verse it doesn't sound like it's talking about humans does it? Worm?

Actually what it's talking about is a place called Gehanna, which is a rubbish dump outside of the city. A place for dead animals and other garbage. So yeah, worms are going to thrive in a place like that. Can you see he's using a metaphor here? There will be so many decaying bodies rotting in hell, the worms will be having a feast. No suggestion of eternal suffering there, only death, decay and flames, just like that rubbish dump outside the city Jesus lived in.

Marvin
Jun 24th 2008, 04:29 AM
when we try to minimize what the scriptures say about the righteousness of God we minimize the significance of the cross and we minimize the depth of His love for us. The scripture clearly represent Gods love as eternal and His judgement as eternal.
Certainly. But death is eternal. You don't come back. Which is why believers will have eternal life and unbelievers won't. John 3:16 is very clear. Jesus words were very clear.


Hell is not a doctrine though, well it is not a man-made doctrine it is clearly Biblical and God is loving but as you said, He is just as well and He isn't gonna allow people who rejected Him and chose to die in sin entry into heaven... They knew (some way or another) what awaited them and God has revealed it to us. Hell wasn't made for us, it was made for Satan and his demons but due to the fact we sin and serve Satan by doing so, we go to Hell with him(if we aren't saved from it by faith in Jesus Christ).
Oma's original scripture suggests this. It was for the devil, not necessarily those he decieved.



Hell is real buddy, and people aren't saved by scare tactics only through faith in Christ but if you aren't saved then you will end up there. And Hell isn't even the worst.. the worst is when Satan, the false prophet, the beast, and all the demons and evildoers are thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where they will burn for eternity... yikes! But God loves us and has redeemed us from all that so praise Him :):bounce::pp
I think the key words are "will burn for eternity". The fire is eternal so the body will continue to burn. This does not suggest you will remain alive feeling the flames burning you for all eternity. Remember too that God loves all evil doers too, so do you really think he would want to see them suffer for all eternity?

Marvin
Jun 24th 2008, 04:34 AM
There are at least 150 verses of scripture (see 23 Minutes in Hell for the list) that describe Hell as an eternal place of torment. And God, being a righteous and just God, will reward every man and woman with the choice they have made here on this earth before they died. And as for perishing there, once more you need scripture because scripture does not support your idea,
I think you may be addressing these last points to me here. But so far I have seen no scriptures that support the idea of humans suffering for all eternity in Hell. All I have seen is scriptures supporting the flames of Hell as being eternal and the Devil suffering for all eternity.

As for Perishing, I myself have provided the perfect scripture to support this. John 3:16. Either we perish in hell or we perish when we die. It's gotta happen some time though!



To the OP. Do you believe that a sinner, walking around the earth today, a non believer is alive or dead? He looks alive, he talks like he's alive, he acts like he's alive. But according to the Bible that sinner is "dead in his sins." Life, and life abundant, is not the same thing as existence... and death is not destruction, but ruination, spoiling, a result of rejecting God. We are no longer fit for purpose if we do not have Him. The sinner is not fit for purpose, he is ruined.

Jesus describes conscious hell, using the exact same "forever" that He uses of heaven. You can't redefine hell without redefining heaven. I wish it wasn't so... I really truly do wish it. But it's there. Sorry.

So far no evidence has been shown in scripture the Hell is place where unbelievers will suffer in torment for eternity. So far I have given a very convincing scripture, Christ's own words that say all those who don't believe will perish. So far people have attempted to quote contrary scriptures, but none that convincingly refute John 3:16.

Athanasius
Jun 24th 2008, 04:52 AM
So far no evidence has been shown in scripture the Hell is place where unbelievers will suffer in torment for eternity. So far I have given a very convincing scripture, Christ's own words that say all those who don't believe will perish. So far people have attempted to quote contrary scriptures, but none that convincingly refute John 3:16.

You aren't open to the possibility you're wrong; this is why you aren't able to see the other side of the argument, if you don't mind me saying (even if you do ;)).

If Hell isn't eternal, then God's justice has been violated. It doesn't matter if people cease to exist after being in hell for five minutes, or five trillion years. It's still a case of living the life you want to live and in the end not paying for it. That's the whole point... Hell is worse than ceasing to exist.

David Taylor
Jun 24th 2008, 12:58 PM
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th1bill
Jun 24th 2008, 02:57 PM
I think you may be addressing these last points to me here. But so far I have seen no scriptures that support the idea of humans suffering for all eternity in Hell. All I have seen is scriptures supporting the flames of Hell as being eternal and the Devil suffering for all eternity.

As for Perishing, I myself have provided the perfect scripture to support this. John 3:16. Either we perish in hell or we perish when we die. It's gotta happen some time though!

Neighbor, that might be an interesting spin on a scripture pull out of it's context but that, by no means, establishes this false doctrine you are attempting to teach here. If you will read John 3 from the first verse through the last you will discover that the subject being discussed is Salvation. The much quoted and loved verse, 3:16, coupled with 17 and 18 have nothing to do with this idea you are promoting as theology. To illustrate my position I gave you an easy source for the verses concerning the nature of Hell and you seem to have rejected them, out of hand. If you are not willing to study you will remain deceived and to be deceived there must be a lie present and the father of all lies is Satan. Please borrow a copy of the very inexpensive book, 23 Minutes in Hell and look in the back for the scripture references.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 03:13 PM
Ah, now there's another good scripture to support the notion that Hell is not eternal suffering.

Well verse 43 is talking about a fire that shall never be quenched. Definitely not talking about eternal suffering in it. As for the second verse it doesn't sound like it's talking about humans does it? Worm?

Worm is talking about humans. It's a symbol for the eternal soul that won't vanish.

Isa 41:14
14 "Do not fear, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel;
I will help you," declares the Lord, "and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel
NASB

When Jesus spoke of the worm that would not die, the Jews knew he was speaking figuratively of men.

Here's the OT reference...

Isa 66:24
24 "Then they shall go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm shall not die,
And their fire shall not be quenched;
And they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind."
NASB

If the worm ran out of food to eat, it would die. Again, this is a reference to their eternal being as we see in the passage I listed above.


Actually what it's talking about is a place called Gehanna, which is a rubbish dump outside of the city. A place for dead animals and other garbage. So yeah, worms are going to thrive in a place like that. Can you see he's using a metaphor here? There will be so many decaying bodies rotting in hell, the worms will be having a feast. No suggestion of eternal suffering there, only death, decay and flames, just like that rubbish dump outside the city Jesus lived in.

Again, if the worm won't die, as you are suggesting, then it must have a constant source of food, i.e. human bodies. Not going to happen. So either way, torment is on going.

Now a passage on eternal punishment.

Matt 25:46
46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
NASB

Eternal punishment last as long as eternal life.

And finally, a couple of passages that shows people will suffer for eternity.

Rev 20:10
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
NASB

The beast and false prophet are human. And the above passage says they will be tormented forever.

Rev 14:9-11

9 And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
NASB

Again, the above is a passage where those that worship the beast are tormented forever and ever. They never have rest day or night. Death, as some describe it, would be a form of rest. One who ceases to exist is resting and sleeps. But that doesn't happen. They never have rest again. The smoke of their torment rises eternally because they are eternally tormented.

calidog
Jun 24th 2008, 03:14 PM
But death is eternal. You don't come back. Which is why believers will have eternal life and unbelievers won't. John 3:16 is very clear. Jesus words were very clear.


Yes they are very clear

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Joh 3:16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

ImmenseDisciple
Jun 24th 2008, 06:01 PM
If Hell isn't eternal then I'd say that would negatively impact this idea of 'justice'.I can't argue that you line up with scripture, but honestly - you feel that way? You can see how infinite punishment for finite wrongdoing is just? I am afraid that I cannot.

It makes no sense to me that Hell could possibly be infinite punishment. You have to work to make a case that it is not, though - I consider it undeniable that a straight reading of all of the relevant texts gives the impression that Hell is eternal punishment. It is beyond me to see how the perfectly loving God I know could possibly have to inflict eternal punishment as judgment on all who sin, but if it is what He must do (and He says that it is...) then I have no choice but to accept that it is perfect, righteous justice.

I have no doubt that I could form a case that hell is not, for humans, at least, the infinite agony we understand it as - but I choose hard truth over soothing lies. I suggest the OP does the same. A skilled legalist can support anything with scripture, and if he does not recognise his bias he will do so unintentionally. Take a long hard look at why you've come to your opinion - whether it was formed before you had taken a look at the relevant scripture, or whether you allowed the scriptures to decide it. You hang all your hopes on half a verse, and seem to disregard everything else - I'm sorry, but it is clear your mind was not made up by what you read.

As an interesting side note - tonight I am going to a discussion group on this exact topic, and up until today I would have rejected the straight reading of the nature of hell.

daughter
Jun 24th 2008, 06:08 PM
You can see how infinite punishment for finite wrongdoing is just? I am afraid that I cannot.

I think the mistake is that we think our wrong doing is "finite." It's not. David, when he sinned with Bathsheba, and later repented says to God, "against you only have I sinned..." not against the man he murdered! He sees his sin as even more significant and awful than that. He sinned against God.

If God is infinite, and we know that He is, then any sin against Him is a sin against an eternal God. So no sin is finite, they all impact on eternity. THAT'S how bad our sins are. They are eternally significant, and can only be atoned for by the blood of our eternal God.

That being the case, the punishment must fit the crime. :cry:

ImmenseDisciple
Jun 24th 2008, 06:21 PM
I think the mistake is that we think our wrong doing is "finite." It's not. David, when he sinned with Bathsheba, and later repented says to God, "against you only have I sinned..." not against the man he murdered! He sees his sin as even more significant and awful than that. He sinned against God.

If God is infinite, and we know that He is, then any sin against Him is a sin against an eternal God. So no sin is finite, they all impact on eternity. THAT'S how bad our sins are. They are eternally significant, and can only be atoned for by the blood of our eternal God.

That being the case, the punishment must fit the crime. :cry:
Thank you, that makes sense. You've really opened my eyes, there.

Athanasius
Jun 24th 2008, 07:39 PM
Immense I'm at work and haven't the time to reply in full right now. I will, however, reply in full a little later on. Until then, a little food for thought....

Daniel 12:1-3

1"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

2"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

3"Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

David Taylor
Jun 24th 2008, 10:58 PM
Hey guys, the OP, Marvin, is a newbie, and doesn't have enough posts and days under his belt yet to post in here, and reply. So, it will be a while before he can answer your questions.

mikebr
Jun 25th 2008, 06:39 PM
If Hell isn't eternal then I'd say that would negatively impact this idea of 'justice'.

You honestly believe that eternal burning in a literal fire is justice for any crime?

daughter
Jun 25th 2008, 06:48 PM
Thank you, that makes sense. You've really opened my eyes, there.
Wow, I made sense? :o

Thank you! :D