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Eaglenester
Jun 23rd 2008, 06:17 PM
Should christians in America be patriotic towards their country?
Why or why not?

Slug1
Jun 23rd 2008, 06:23 PM
Yes :cool:

Eaglenester
Jun 23rd 2008, 06:27 PM
Yes :cool:

So do you feel it's unChrist like to be nonpatriotic?

What if you were a christian in China or Cuba?

Fenris
Jun 23rd 2008, 06:28 PM
Well, I'm not Christian so I can't answer to question directly. But I can tell you that Jews have always tried to be loyal citizens, as exemplified by the verse in Jeremiah 29:7 'Seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the LORD on its behalf; for in its prosperity will you prosper.'

Slug1
Jun 23rd 2008, 06:45 PM
So do you feel it's unChrist like to be nonpatriotic?

What if you were a christian in China or Cuba?Different topic :P

What is non-patriotic? Is there a standard or a curve as to who is/who isn't and then what makes a person more patriotic then another?

I do have an American Flag displayed in my front yard on an 18 foot pole and it is lighted at night. Now if I didn't display a flag is that unpatriotic?

When I destroy my old faded and torn flags every 4-6 months I don't separate the blue from the stripes before burning it, I just toss it in the burn barrel with the rest of the paper trash I'm burning. So am I un-patriotic?

Eaglenester
Jun 23rd 2008, 06:50 PM
Different topic :P

What is non-patriotic? Is there a standard or a curve as to who is/who isn't and then what makes a person more patriotic then another?

I do have an American Flag displayed in my front yard on an 18 foot pole and it is lighted at night. Now if I didn't display a flag is that unpatriotic?

When I destroy my old faded and torn flags every 4-6 months I don't separate the blue from the stripes before burning it, I just toss it in the burn barrel with the rest of the paper trash I'm burning. So am I un-patriotic?

I nolonger fly or salute the flag or will say the pledge - so most will say I'm unpatriotic.

Brother Mark
Jun 23rd 2008, 06:53 PM
Well, I'm not Christian so I can't answer to question directly. But I can tell you that Jews have always tried to be loyal citizens, as exemplified by the verse in Jeremiah 29:7 'Seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the LORD on its behalf; for in its prosperity will you prosper.'

This is what I was thinking.

Slug1
Jun 23rd 2008, 06:54 PM
I nolonger fly or salute the flag or will say the pledge - so most will say I'm unpatriotic.I'm sure you have your reasons.

Tell me, is that reason strong enough for you to turn all your medals earned while on active service, back in and refuse to desplay them as well?

Eaglenester
Jun 23rd 2008, 06:58 PM
Tell me, is that reason strong enough for you to turn all your medals earned while on active service, back in ?

No - that's an act of protest, which I don't view as a Christ like act


refuse to desplay them as well?

I don't display my medals, never did - even before I came to Messiah, if fact I don't even have a set anymore.

Brother Mark
Jun 23rd 2008, 07:04 PM
I nolonger fly or salute the flag or will say the pledge - so most will say I'm unpatriotic.

For political reasons or for scriptural reasons?

Eaglenester
Jun 23rd 2008, 07:05 PM
Well, I'm not Christian so I can't answer to question directly. But I can tell you that Jews have always tried to be loyal citizens, as exemplified by the verse in Jeremiah 29:7 'Seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the LORD on its behalf; for in its prosperity will you prosper.'

I don't see that verse as meaning patriotic towards your country - in context it totally can not - sent you in exile - means being in a different country.

I seek the welfare of where ever I live - including when I lived in and visited other nations - that's totally different than being patriotic.




pa·tri·ot·ic
Function: adjective 1 : inspired by patriotism (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/patriotism)
2 : befitting or characteristic of a patriot (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/patriot)

Slug1
Jun 23rd 2008, 07:07 PM
No - that's an act of protest, which I don't view as a Christ like actTrue and straight up dumb also :rolleyes:




I don't display my medals, never did - even before I came to Messiah, if fact I don't even have a set anymore.I guess I'm like this also... the only one I ever display is my CIB w/star. The rest are in a drawer.

People ask me why I never have anything on the walls except some appreciation certificates, so the question pops up every once in awhile why I don't display the actual medals... i just :dunno:

Eaglenester
Jun 23rd 2008, 07:11 PM
For political reasons or for scriptural reasons?

I am a citizen of Yah's Kingdom and an alien to this country.

I respect the Govt and obey the laws - Scripture calls us to do so.

I don't protest what I view that it does wrong, or advocate using the Govt for implementing my views, values, and morals - I don't see Scripture calling us to to do so.

I would do the same if I lived in a non-democratic nation.

Fenris
Jun 23rd 2008, 07:26 PM
I don't see that verse as meaning patriotic towards your country - in context it totally can not - sent you in exile - means being in a different country.We are 'exiles' in that we are only here temporarily.


I seek the welfare of where ever I live - including when I lived in and visited other nations - that's totally different than being patriotic.
Suit yourself, it's a free country.

The United States is the best country in the history of the world for all it's citizens, by any measuring rod. I feel privileged to live here. I love this country.

Brother Mark
Jun 23rd 2008, 07:39 PM
I am a citizen of Yah's Kingdom and an alien to this country.

I respect the Govt and obey the laws - Scripture calls us to do so.

I don't protest what I view that it does wrong, or advocate using the Govt for implementing my views, values, and morals - I don't see Scripture calling us to to do so.

I would do the same if I lived in a non-democratic nation.

Did this line up with your political thinking before you got saved?

Brother Mark
Jun 23rd 2008, 07:40 PM
The United States is the best country in the history of the world for all it's citizens, by any measuring rod. I feel privileged to live here. I love this country.


I agree with you on that one too. We should seek the welfare of the country we are in and we happen to be in a very good one.

Eaglenester
Jun 23rd 2008, 07:45 PM
We are 'exiles' in that we are only here temporarily.

Not Scripturally accurate meaning of the word used:
gâlâh
A primitive root; to denude (especially in a disgraceful sense); by implication to exile (captives being usually stripped); figuratively to reveal:




The United States is the best country in the history of the world for all it's citizens, by any measuring rod. I feel privileged to live here. I love this country.

Suit yourself, it's a free country:

But ask the natives of this land that were conquered - had ethnic cleansing practiced on them - were forced to relocate to barren reservations - were forbidden to practice their religion - if this is "the best country in the history of the world for all it's citizens, by any measuring rod"

But ask the blacks, who's ancestors were brought here a slaves - then for generations after they were "freed" were not allowed to vote - were treated as less than other humans - it was only in this generation that they had even begun to be treated as equal (remember the pre civil rights era) - if this is "the best country in the history of the world for all it's citizens, by any measuring rod"

I think they would view things a whole lot differently.

Brother Mark
Jun 23rd 2008, 07:49 PM
Suit yourself, it's a free country:

But ask the natives of this land that were conquered - had ethnic cleansing practiced on them - were forced to relocate to barren reservations - were forbidden to practice their religion - if this is "the best country in the history of the world for all it's citizens, by any measuring rod"

But ask the blacks, who's ancestors were brought here a slaves - then for generations after they were "freed" were not allowed to vote - were treated as less than other humans - it was only in this generation that they had even begun to be treated as equal (remember the pre civil rights era) - if this is "the best country in the history of the world for all it's citizens, by any measuring rod"

I think they would view things a whole lot differently.

I thought this might be a political issue being pushed forward. What do those things have to do with the country we live in today? It's far different today. Sounds like you might have had an ax to grind both before and after you got saved.

Eaglenester
Jun 23rd 2008, 07:49 PM
Did this line up with your political thinking before you got saved?

NOT IN THE LEAST.

I served 8 years in the Navy - my dad did 15 years in the Army - I was a defense contractor working with Army communications for 6 years.

It has been a processing after coming to Messiah.

Brother Mark
Jun 23rd 2008, 07:51 PM
NOT IN THE LEAST.

I served 8 years in the Navy - my dad did 15 years in the Army - I was a defense contractor working with Army communications for 6 years.

It has been a processing after coming to Messiah.

Why the animosity then? Your posts on the subject come across as angry and condemning. I happen to love my country, even though she has faults. I won't pledge to her in case she goes the way of Nebechednezzar. However, I will support her in her in the things she does right, which are many.

Eaglenester
Jun 23rd 2008, 07:52 PM
I thought this might be a political issue being pushed forward. What do those things have to do with the country we live in today? It's far different today. Sounds like you might have had an ax to grind both before and after you got saved.

Where we are today is due to our past - they can not be separated - they can not be ignored.

Fenris
Jun 23rd 2008, 07:54 PM
Not Scripturally accurate meaning of the word used:
gâlâhYah, I know what it means. I can read Hebrew. I was engaging in a bit of poetry an nonliteral reading that Christians seem to enjoy. I guess it was wasted on this audience.


But ask the natives of this land that were conquered - had ethnic cleansing practiced on them - were forced to relocate to barren reservations - were forbidden to practice their religion - if this is "the best country in the history of the world for all it's citizens, by any measuring rod"Maybe you can tell me of a country that was not founded by force of arms. I'm drawing a blank here.


But ask the blacks, who's ancestors were brought here a slaves - then for generations after they were "freed" were not allowed to vote - were treated as less than other humans - it was only in this generation that they had even begun to be treated as equal (remember the pre civil rights era) - if this is "the best country in the history of the world for all it's citizens, by any measuring rod"
Are they free and can they vote today? How long must we beat ourselves up for things that happened decades or generations ago?

Eaglenester
Jun 23rd 2008, 08:02 PM
Why the animosity then? Your posts on the subject come across as angry and condemning. I happen to love my country, even though she has faults. I won't pledge to her in case she goes the way of Nebechednezzar. However, I will support her in her in the things she does right, which are many.

Because Americanized christianity just glosses over the great sins of this country.

So many claim this is a "christian" nation (WHICH IS A LIE) while ignoring history and facts.

And are things much different? What about the natives still living on barren reservations whose lands were stolen from them?
At least in the OT times, the land was returned.

I see America as no different than any other nation (except Israel).
We are not some "great" nation, better than the rest.

My "animosity" is not towards this country - it's towards those that ignore our sinful past trying to make it something more than it is.

It's towards the "christian" leaders that make it like if your christian you should be waving a flag and being "rah rah America" all the while not trying to make-up for the sins of our past.

Eaglenester
Jun 23rd 2008, 08:05 PM
Are they free and can they vote today? How long must we beat ourselves up for things that happened decades or generations ago?

Some of it has happened to THIS generation still living, we don't have to beat our selves up if we would do more to try to correct things.

Fenris
Jun 23rd 2008, 08:08 PM
Some of it has happened to THIS generation still living, we don't have to beat our selves up if we would do more to try to correct things.
So we all bear the cumulative guilt? Forever?


If you feel that way, why even try to be better?

Brother Mark
Jun 23rd 2008, 08:11 PM
Where we are today is due to our past - they can not be separated - they can not be ignored.

We repent and press on. That's what Daniel did. But he didn't not love his nation because of past sins. And yes, they can be separated and should be.

Brother Mark
Jun 23rd 2008, 08:12 PM
Because Americanized christianity just glosses over the great sins of this country.

So many claim this is a "christian" nation (WHICH IS A LIE) while ignoring history and facts.

And are things much different? What about the natives still living on barren reservations whose lands were stolen from them?
At least in the OT times, the land was returned.

Joshua never returned land to the Canaanites. Nor was Saul to return land to the Amalekites.


I see America as no different than any other nation (except Israel).
We are not some "great" nation, better than the rest.

My "animosity" is not towards this country - it's towards those that ignore our sinful past trying to make it something more than it is.

It's towards the "christian" leaders that make it like if your christian you should be waving a flag and being "rah rah America" all the while not trying to make-up for the sins of our past.

One doesn't "make up" for the sins of the past as a nation. So tell me, are you for reparations?

Eaglenester
Jun 23rd 2008, 08:28 PM
It was "patriotic christian citizens" who stood by the leaders and the nation while all this took place and did nothing - that's my point.

It's about examining patriotism to a nation in light of our roles a children of Yah.

It was christian soldiers that killed the natives and forced them from their lands, then it was christian settlers that then occupied that land.

It was christian citizens who wouldn't let black people eat at the same counters as white people, who would make the ride the back of the bus, who denied them equal education for generations, who would let them goto the same "church" as them.

They were very "patriotic".

Why hasn't the church in America owned up to her complicity and complacency???
Instead, for the most part, it has be silent - is that Repentance??

Why hasn't the American church been leading the way for reconciliation?

Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it's mistakes (evils)

Eaglenester
Jun 23rd 2008, 08:32 PM
Joshua never returned land to the Canaanites. Nor was Saul to return land to the Amalekites.


So are you saying Yahweh told the forefathers to conquer and occupy this land, enslave the blacks, force the natives onto reservations?

If not then your point is way out of context.

Brother Mark
Jun 23rd 2008, 08:36 PM
It was "patriotic christian citizens" who stood by the leaders and the nation while all this took place and did nothing - that's my point.

That's the past. Confess it, ask for forgiveness for it, forgive it ourselves, and move on.


It's about examining patriotism to a nation in light of our roles a children of Yah.

It was christian soldiers that killed the natives and forced them from their lands, then it was christian settlers that then occupied that land.

It was christian citizens who wouldn't let black people eat at the same counters as white people, who would make the ride the back of the bus, who denied them equal education for generations, who would let them goto the same "church" as them.

They were very "patriotic".

Sinful too. Patriotism and sin don't always run together.


Why hasn't the church in America owned up to her complicity and complacency???
Instead, for the most part, it has be silent - is that Repentance??

Why hasn't the American church been leading the way for reconciliation?

Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it's mistakes (evils)

She has. Many have repented, taken different action, acknowledged the guilt accepted forgiveness and moved on. You think Israel should continuously acknowledge the sins she has done that got her put into Babylon? No. She already did that and was restored. This nation dealt with slavery, many have confessed the wrongs done to the native Americans. But it won't go back like it once did. Just as Joshua didn't return Canaan, neither will this land be returned. And if another government comes in here and takes it, I will submit to them too.

So, are you for reparations?

ProjectPeter
Jun 23rd 2008, 08:37 PM
Funny... the other day I was rooting around in a tote and found my box of medals. Hadn't thought of those things in a long time either. And yeah Ken... the CIB is the only one that I particularly cared about as well. I did get the Soldiers Medal which was the highest award given in peace time. That was cool but I didn't really feel it was necessary. I had a big bust so my name was all over the General's office so when I pulled Panamanians out of a car that was burning... they give me that award because the Accommodation medal was the biggest you could get for the bust... guess they figured the bust deserved more. It was good for promotion points though... then it went in the drawer. My platoon Sgt held the CMH so to me... everything else pretty much looked goofy when standing next to him.

And shoot... didn't think of the CIB... that is something grunts and field MP's have in common anyway. War's war when on the ground... don't matter the MOS! :lol:

Brother Mark
Jun 23rd 2008, 08:38 PM
So are you saying Yahweh told the forefathers to conquer and occupy this land, enslave the blacks, force the natives onto reservations?

If not then your point is way out of context.

This nation already dealt with slavery. Not sure why you keep wanting to go there. A war was fought over it and righteousness won out. Slaves were freed. You can keep harping on it, but it's over, done with and forgiven. The natives don't have to stay on reservations. They can move into US culture if they so choose. Doesn't make right all the wrongs that were done. Nor is it applicable to the whole patriotism argument you seem to push. There is nothing wrong with loving the government and country God has given us. Love covers a multitude of sins and that is the way it should be. Forgive your country and move on.

The quote is in context. I can't find anywhere, outside of Israel, where God required the land to be returned. When Ishmael took his land, God didn't require he return it. When Israel took their land, it wasn't returned. The only place for returning land is the jubilee year and that is between countrymen and not governments.

ProjectPeter
Jun 23rd 2008, 08:39 PM
It was "patriotic christian citizens" who stood by the leaders and the nation while all this took place and did nothing - that's my point.

It's about examining patriotism to a nation in light of our roles a children of Yah.

It was christian soldiers that killed the natives and forced them from their lands, then it was christian settlers that then occupied that land.

It was christian citizens who wouldn't let black people eat at the same counters as white people, who would make the ride the back of the bus, who denied them equal education for generations, who would let them goto the same "church" as them.

They were very "patriotic".

Why hasn't the church in America owned up to her complicity and complacency???
Instead, for the most part, it has be silent - is that Repentance??

Why hasn't the American church been leading the way for reconciliation?

Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it's mistakes (evils)
Uh... many have spoken about it and with shame. But what do you want from them? 40 acres and a Pinto? I mean come on... you're beating a way dead horse. Let it go!

Eaglenester
Jun 23rd 2008, 08:45 PM
This nation already dealt with slavery. Not sure why you keep wanting to go there. A war was fought over it and righteousness won out. Slaves were freed. You can keep harping on it, but it's over, done with and forgiven. The natives don't have to stay on reservations. They can move into US culture if they so choose. Doesn't make right all the wrongs that were done. Nor is it applicable to the whole patriotism argument you seem to push. There is nothing wrong with loving the government and country God has given us. Love covers a multitude of sins and that is the way it should be. Forgive your country and move on.

The quote is in context. I can't find anywhere, outside of Israel, where God required the land to be returned. When Ishmael took his land, God didn't require he return it. When Israel took their land, it wasn't returned. The only place for returning land is the jubilee year and that is between countrymen and not governments.

Because Yahweh gave them that land and told them to take it.
BIG difference.

Brother Mark
Jun 23rd 2008, 08:50 PM
Because Yahweh gave them that land and told them to take it.
BIG difference.

He gave Babylon the land of Israel as well. Of course, he took it back later. There are countless examples. How do you know God didn't give this land to us? I certainly feel blessed by Him to have been born and raised here. It was a gift to me if to no one else.

Are you for reparations?

Eaglenester
Jun 23rd 2008, 08:55 PM
This nation already dealt with slavery. Not sure why you keep wanting to go there. A war was fought over it and righteousness won out. Slaves were freed. You can keep harping on it, but it's over, done with and forgiven. The natives don't have to stay on reservations. They can move into US culture if they so choose. Doesn't make right all the wrongs that were done. Nor is it applicable to the whole patriotism argument you seem to push. There is nothing wrong with loving the government and country God has given us. Love covers a multitude of sins and that is the way it should be. Forgive your country and move on.



Did "righteousness" win out when the christians still treated them as less than human for generations?

It's only been in this recent generation that they have started getting their civil rights - and for the most part it wasn't christians active in doing so.

Why is Sunday the most segregated day of the week?
Why are "churches" still more segregated than society in general (work places and living areas) in this "christian" nation?

See Mark, I don't see that God gave us this nation, politically motivated men took it - that's why a large portion of christians were opposed to the revolutionary war.

Brother Mark
Jun 23rd 2008, 08:59 PM
Did "righteousness" win out when the christians still treated them as less than human for generations?

It's only been in this recent generation that they have started getting their civil rights - and for the most part it wasn't christians active in doing so.

Last I checked, Christians have asked for forgiveness and many did help. The point, this generation has repented.


Why is Sunday the most segregated day of the week?
Why are "churches" still more segregated than society in general (work places and living areas) in this "christian" nation?That cuts both ways for whites, blacks, red and yellow. But progress is being made. This country is far more integrated than just about any other country on earth.


See Mark, I don't see that God gave us this nation, politically motivated men took it - that's why a large portion of christians were opposed to the revolutionary war.I think your whole thing is reparations based. You refuse to answer the question but all I see are political arguments to tear the country down. Not sure why you want to rail against her when she is far better than she use to be.

You might be surprised at how many people think the revolutionary war was wrong even today. Doesn't mean they don't love their country.

Eaglenester
Jun 23rd 2008, 09:19 PM
I certainly feel blessed by Him to have been born and raised here. It was a gift to me if to no one else.


Are your christian bothers and sisters in places like China, or Pakistan, or India, or Africa any less blessed for being born in the countries they are in?



Are you for reparations?

As a Nation doing so - I'm neutral, I can see both sides of the issue - and people on both sides are politically motivated and are not best intention.
But I would expect nothing different from politicians.
I use to be opposed to them.

As The Body of Messiah - that's different, we need to acknowledge, as a church as a whole (some have, but not as a whole), our sins and begin a TRUE healing process centered on Messiah.

The Body of Messiah is fragmented and broken; racially, ethnically,
denominationally, economically, socially - and we need to start making MAJOR steps towards healing to Unity in Messiah if we are ever going to be the light and salt within this Nation we are called to be.

The ONLY hope for this country is The Body of Messiah - not Obama or any other politician, not the Supreme Court, not the military or homeland security, not border security, not social security or welfare.

If we aren't healthy, whole and unified - the the people will turn towards politicians and the Govt.

Our weapons are Scripture, prayer, discipleship, and servitude - not laws and guns.

The enemy wants to keep The ekklesia divided and fragment - and racial / ethnic tensions due to our (for the most part) unrepentant past is a big means to due so.

ProjectPeter
Jun 23rd 2008, 09:22 PM
Why is Sunday the most segregated day of the week?
Why are "churches" still more segregated than society in general (work places and living areas) in this "christian" nation?

You know what... that's an excuse that folks still toss out. I've been involved on the pastoral staff of church's in Atlanta that busted their behinds to break that mold. Here's the problem. The white folk would never kick out any black folk that come to church nor would the black folk kick out any white folk that came to church. But nevertheless... the white folk still go to their same church and the black folk still go to theirs (by and large). It takes folks actually going to the other church (BOTH RACES) to break that mold. But they don't.

Simple answer for it too. It has nothing much to do with segregation but by today's definition it can be because they've added voluntary to the mix. But if there is segregation now... it is VOLUNTARY. Period. Now... it's just become something folks can falsely point to as proving there is "still a race problem." I find it remarkable that folks still buy into it.

News flash. Here is why racism still hits the air waves as a major ordeal in the US. There are many folk that MUST keep it alive because that is how they make their living... and a good living they make off it. Some of these civil rights guys haven't ever held down a real job and have lived off of "I have a dream" to the point where it is pretty near shameful now. In many ways... these men are now the ones responsible for racial problems because it is they who often "keep hate alive" instead of realizing that "hope has been realized." It is sad to see.

Just because there are still silly groups like the KKK or Nation of Islam don't mean there are "race issues." A handful of idiots in a city, state or Nation don't make the city, state or Nation one of idiots. :rolleyes:

Eaglenester
Jun 23rd 2008, 09:38 PM
Last I checked, Christians have asked for forgiveness and many did help.


But as a whole, the American church didn't



That cuts both ways for whites, blacks, red and yellow. But progress is being made.

I agree - but the greater burden is on the transgressors - The others need to be forgiving as much as we need to be repentant, their leaders are just as wrong to not be perusing this among the people - but that's not my area to seek.



This country is far more integrated than just about any other country on earth.


But why is the church less so????



I think your whole thing is reparations based. You refuse to answer the question but all I see are political arguments to tear the country down. Not sure why you want to rail against her when she is far better than she use to be.


You only asked once that I didn't address it, the second time I did answer - so that's what happens from assuming thinking.



You might be surprised at how many people think the revolutionary war was wrong even today. Doesn't mean they don't love their country.

I love the people and not the country, and it doesn't matter which country they are from.
As Kieth Green put it in a song:


God is not an American
He's not even a republican
He loves a drunk in the streets of Calcutta as much as Ronald Regan

I try to see beyond Nations and borders, as I believe Yahweh does.
His sheep are His sheep regardless of which borders they are within.
One is not blessed by what borders they were born within - but only by which Kingdom they reside in.

I am not blessed because I'm an American - I'm blessed because I'm Yah's.
A persecuted brother-in-Messiah in Pakistan is much more blessed than a prosperous American that doesn't see his need for Messiah.

Eaglenester
Jun 23rd 2008, 09:45 PM
You know what... that's an excuse that folks still toss out. I've been involved on the pastoral staff of church's in Atlanta that busted their behinds to break that mold. Here's the problem. The white folk would never kick out any black folk that come to church nor would the black folk kick out any white folk that came to church. But nevertheless... the white folk still go to their same church and the black folk still go to theirs (by and large). It takes folks actually going to the other church (BOTH RACES) to break that mold. But they don't.

Simple answer for it too. It has nothing much to do with segregation but by today's definition it can be because they've added voluntary to the mix. But if there is segregation now... it is VOLUNTARY. Period. Now... it's just become something folks can falsely point to as proving there is "still a race problem." I find it remarkable that folks still buy into it.

News flash. Here is why racism still hits the air waves as a major ordeal in the US. There are many folk that MUST keep it alive because that is how they make their living... and a good living they make off it. Some of these civil rights guys haven't ever held down a real job and have lived off of "I have a dream" to the point where it is pretty near shameful now. In many ways... these men are now the ones responsible for racial problems because it is they who often "keep hate alive" instead of realizing that "hope has been realized." It is sad to see.

Just because there are still silly groups like the KKK or Nation of Islam don't mean there are "race issues." A handful of idiots in a city, state or Nation don't make the city, state or Nation one of idiots. :rolleyes:

It's not an excuse - it's a reality.

Yes there ARE exceptions, but not enough.

I agree that it is an issue on both sides - and their are many leaders on the minority side who fuel it because it feeds their power structure.

YES it's voluntary - but it reveals an ugly truth, to many church goers identify more with their racial/ethnic/social/denominational status than with their soul status.

ProjectPeter
Jun 23rd 2008, 11:21 PM
It's not an excuse - it's a reality.

Yes there ARE exceptions, but not enough.

I agree that it is an issue on both sides - and their are many leaders on the minority side who fuel it because it feeds their power structure.

YES it's voluntary - but it reveals an ugly truth, to many church goers identify more with their racial/ethnic/social/denominational status than with their soul status.
You know... white folk tend to hang with white folk because their culture is very similar. Black folk tend to hang because their culture is very similar. Mexican with Mexican, African with African, Martian with Martian... why? They understand each other a bit better. That's just human nature. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself. If there is no hate or malice or animosity then so what that churches tend to be all the same color? As long as they are being equipped to do the work of Christ... what in the world does that matter?

Eaglenester
Jun 24th 2008, 12:41 AM
You know... white folk tend to hang with white folk because their culture is very similar. Black folk tend to hang because their culture is very similar. Mexican with Mexican, African with African, Martian with Martian... why? They understand each other a bit better. That's just human nature. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself. If there is no hate or malice or animosity then so what that churches tend to be all the same color? As long as they are being equipped to do the work of Christ... what in the world does that matter?

Because it's a work of the flesh rather than a work of Yah's Holy Spirit. (Your right - human(sinful) nature) . Because it is a form of division rather than unity. . Because, as I pointed out, it shows ones race / ethnicity is more dominant and important than ones faith. . It's not a problem - it's a symptom of the problem.

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 12:45 AM
Because it's a work of the flesh rather than a work of Yah's Holy Spirit. (Your right - human(sinful) nature) Because it is a form of division rather than unity. Because, as I pointed out, it shows ones race / ethnicity is more dominant and important than ones faith. It's not a problem - it's a symptom of the problem.
So who is wrong here... the white folk or the black folk?

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 12:49 AM
Because it's a work of the flesh rather than a work of Yah's Holy Spirit. (Your right - human(sinful) nature) Because it is a form of division rather than unity. Because, as I pointed out, it shows ones race / ethnicity is more dominant and important than ones faith.

What happens is people of the Christian faith congregate together. Within that faith, they also congregate according to culture. If you look deeper, you will see other groups. It's not uncommon for those of similar giftings to also congregate together. I've traveled all over the world, from the bushes of Africa, to the mountains of Colombia, to the barren mountains in Honduras to the highly developed areas in Canada. And within all those countries, I was able to connect with believers of various cultures and races, except maybe Canada. (Most of the folks I saw in Canada were of one race.) I have far more in common with the saved Massai pastors in Tanzania than I do with the lost stock broker here in the states. Faith is the leading part then ethnicity often comes into play. But even so, it is often an issue of culture more than it is racist. Still, I have found churches across the country that are mixed and open their arms to others, white and black alike.

Within the faith, there will be some divisions for the simple reason a body is made up of different body parts. We see through a glass darkly as well. You spend so much time beating up on the body, the body hardly will respond to your message. What is interesting, is how this thread has gone from patriotism to the church to racism. It still sounds to me like you have an ax to grind. Maybe you don't. But it's coming across that way.

markedward
Jun 24th 2008, 01:34 AM
I voted "no."

I will do my best to respect that country and obey its laws, but since all earthly countries are subject to corruption (and the one I live in already is corrupted) I don't believe I should swear my allegiance to any sort of earthly nation.

Eaglenester
Jun 24th 2008, 01:49 AM
What is interesting, is how this thread has gone from patriotism to the church to racism.

NO - it's always been about the church for me



You spend so much time beating up on the body,

Better than complacently sitting around making up excuses for the churches failings - I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about all the do nothing - go to "church" on Sundays (and maybe Wednesdays) - sing a few songs - and talk about how bad all the sinners are - pew warmers, and the leadership that allows them to be comfortable.

Can you honestly look at the church in America and say that it's even close to what Yahweh has called it to be?

I can't

If we can't point out what's wrong within our own body (the church) - then how can we offer and help to the world.

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 02:14 AM
Who is wrong? The white folk or black folk?

Slug1
Jun 24th 2008, 02:28 AM
The church God led my wife and I to is Hispanic. The services are in Spanish and translated to English for us "white" folk. My wife has been elected to an Elder position in the church and I have been elected to the leader of the church Decons and also the leader of the Men's Ministry. My wife is also developing a Biblical Recovery Program for the church as well that myself and 2 other's will be members of as we offer counseling to any and everyone.

There is no mold in the Body of Christ and if a church allows such a "mold" to exist then who's really leading such a church... not the Holy Spirit.

Eaglenester
Jun 24th 2008, 02:30 AM
Who is wrong? The white folk or black folk?

BOTH.

Harboring unforgiveness is also just as wrong as the initial sinful behavior.

Feeding on and fueling the unforgiveness (like "pastor" Wright) is evil.
2 wrongs don't make a right.

Eaglenester
Jun 24th 2008, 02:33 AM
The church God led my wife and I to is Hispanic. The services are in Spanish and translated to English for us "white" folk. My wife has been elected to an Elder position in the church and I have been elected to the leader of the church Decons and also the leader of the Men's Ministry. My wife is also developing a Biblical Recovery Program for the church as well that myself and 2 other's will be members of as we offer counseling to any and everyone.


That's how it should be :pp



There is no mold in the Body of Christ and if a church allows such a "mold" to exist then who's really leading such a church... not the Holy Spirit.

TOTALLY agree

Eaglenester
Jun 24th 2008, 03:14 AM
I voted "no."

I will do my best to respect that country and obey its laws, but since all earthly countries are subject to corruption (and the one I live in already is corrupted) I don't believe I should swear my allegiance to any sort of earthly nation.

AMEN

To have the American flag displayed up at the alter? :huh:

To have the congregation stand up and recite the pledge of allegiance at the beginning of the service - then people eying you cause you don't.

The church is suppose to be about Yashua, not the country.

Where I live in NM there are people (Hispanics who lived here prior to the European "settlers") who's ranches were stolen from their ancestors after the war for Texas and given to the pro-American white people - and they now work on those same ranches as mere hired hands by rich land owners.

And they should be comfortable in a church that flies the flag at the front - and says the pledge? :crazy:

And christians will be offended when they don't recite the pledge.
They were here first, this country stole their land and houses and cattle, and christians expect them to be grateful and patriotic???

I met one elder at a church at a nearby town who's family ranch that they worked for generations was taken from them after the alamo by Texas rangers - he knows the boundaries of the land his family owned, and the name of the Texas ranger whom got it.
And how his family became ranch hands of the land they once owned.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 03:17 AM
BOTH.

Harboring unforgiveness is also just as wrong as the initial sinful behavior.

Feeding on and fueling the unforgiveness (like "pastor" Wright) is evil.
2 wrongs don't make a right.

I would argue unforgiveness is bad. For God said he would not forgive us if we did not forgive others. All sin leads to death.

Anyway, I think you are going to be ineffective with your approach. Keep on going but most folks will turn you off because of the way you're coming across. The tone is a big turn off. I see many folks doing what is right. I see the church learning to walk in the way God intended. Is she perfect? Nope. But she loves God and God loves her and she is learning and moving forward.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 03:25 AM
Better than complacently sitting around making up excuses for the churches failings - I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about all the do nothing - go to "church" on Sundays (and maybe Wednesdays) - sing a few songs - and talk about how bad all the sinners are - pew warmers, and the leadership that allows them to be comfortable.

I think you have an ax to grind and are being ineffective in your message.


Can you honestly look at the church in America and say that it's even close to what Yahweh has called it to be?

Are you? If so, well, you're the church. The church won't be any better than you are. Or me. I fail to see the issue you are pushing. I see believers loving on each other. I do see stuff like Rev. Wright and others out there with a political ax to grind. The religious right gets out there with their stuff too. But shoot, neither of them seem to be about church as much as they are about politics. When I go to church on Sunday morning, I see a LOT of believers that intermingle and love other believers regardless of race or nationality.


If we can't point out what's wrong within our own body (the church) - then how can we offer and help to the world.

You can point it out. I'm just not convinced of your method or your conclusions or your tone. Always rock hard and always seeing the negative. God is balanced. He sees the good and the bad. To the folks he said "you have little faith" he also said "you are the salt of the earth". To the one who denied him he said "when you are converted, you will encourage the brethren". He didn't harp on just the bad.

Eaglenester
Jun 24th 2008, 03:41 AM
Anyway, I think you are going to be ineffective with your approach. Keep on going but most folks will turn you off because of the way you're coming across. The tone is a big turn off. I see many folks doing what is right. I see the church learning to walk in the way God intended. Is she perfect? Nope. But she loves God and God loves her and she is learning and moving forward.

Most will be turned off because they don't want to face the reality of this "christian" Nation

They have been fed patriotic spin by many churches and don't want to see things any different.

Many view it as unchristian to speak against the deeds of this Nation

They don't want to face up to the truth of the sins done by christians and churches in this countries past.

They want to have this white washed image of America having been a great christian nation when it never was so.

They talk about the good ole days back in the 50s, and wish we were back in the leave it to beaver / Mayberry era - ignoring the reality of how chistians and churches were treating blacks and native Americas as less than them.

Many don't want to face up to the idea they may have it good at the "misfortune" of others.

They want the cheap sneakers - don't bother then with the reality of the slave child labor making them - they want to plead ignorance.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 24th 2008, 06:45 AM
Most will be turned off because they don't want to face the reality of this "christian" Nation

They have been fed patriotic spin by many churches and don't want to see things any different.

Many view it as unchristian to speak against the deeds of this Nation

They don't want to face up to the truth of the sins done by christians and churches in this countries past.

They want to have this white washed image of America having been a great christian nation when it never was so.

They talk about the good ole days back in the 50s, and wish we were back in the leave it to beaver / Mayberry era - ignoring the reality of how chistians and churches were treating blacks and native Americas as less than them.

Many don't want to face up to the idea they may have it good at the "misfortune" of others.

They want the cheap sneakers - don't bother then with the reality of the slave child labor making them - they want to plead ignorance.

What is your solution? Is it your calling to accuse the brethern?
Because having read all your posts in this thread, that's the impression I'm getting.
I've been attending church for 38 years in 5 different states within different denominations and I see the church trying so very hard to be the body of Christ, not one church have I attended has been only white and I thank God for that. The church isn't perfect because the church is us and we're not perfect. But, the God we serve is and with Him all things are possible and with Him all things work together for the good.
Brother, hear this Scripture:
Philippians 4:8
Finally brethern, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is lovely, whatever is noble, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praise worthy, think on such things.
Have faith that God is control of His church and in control of all the things you find so negative, even this country.
Blessings and peace.

Eaglenester
Jun 24th 2008, 12:41 PM
What is your solution? Is it your calling to accuse the brethern?
Because having read all your posts in this thread, that's the impression I'm getting.


No

But we can't bring up and discuss these issues?

We are suppose to stay silent and act like it never happened?

Pastors and christian leaders can continuously repeat the false "christian heritage of this nation" mantra and one can't speak the truth against it?

Christians can rally and protest about the evils of abortion and homosexuality in this country, yet one should not point out & acknowledge the evils committed by the church during the history of this nation?

Christians can rally round the flag and sing God bless America - yet one can't speak the truth about the evils committed under that flag?

I have as much right to speak the truth against the flag as you do to fly it.

This is American: I have as much right to speak against this false christian President as those who praise and support him.

We can talk about Germany and the holocaust, yet should ignore our own genocidal past?

That christians don't want to acknowledge and speak about the ugly past of the church in this nation shows a very problematic mindset.

This isn't just about a long past history, this is about people living today who suffered.

I was a kid living outside Newark NJ during the race riots.

I was alive for the Martin Luther King part of our history.

It was just in 1966 that Texas Western College beat favorite Kentucky 72-65 to win the 1966 NCAA title causing quite a controversy.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 01:39 PM
Most will be turned off because they don't want to face the reality of this "christian" Nation

They have been fed patriotic spin by many churches and don't want to see things any different.

Many view it as unchristian to speak against the deeds of this Nation

They don't want to face up to the truth of the sins done by christians and churches in this countries past.

They want to have this white washed image of America having been a great christian nation when it never was so.

They talk about the good ole days back in the 50s, and wish we were back in the leave it to beaver / Mayberry era - ignoring the reality of how chistians and churches were treating blacks and native Americas as less than them.

Many don't want to face up to the idea they may have it good at the "misfortune" of others.

They want the cheap sneakers - don't bother then with the reality of the slave child labor making them - they want to plead ignorance.

Not sure what church you're talking about. Maybe you need to find a different church to go to. Mine certainly isn't this way. Your point rings political to me. It sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder. And like I said in a previous post, it's unbalanced. But hey, cool thing about living in the US, you can criticize her and her churches and not worry about going to jail.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 24th 2008, 01:46 PM
No

But we can't bring up and discuss these issues?

We are suppose to stay silent and act like it never happened?

Pastors and christian leaders can continuously repeat the false "christian heritage of this nation" mantra and one can't speak the truth against it?

Christians can rally and protest about the evils of abortion and homosexuality in this country, yet one should not point out & acknowledge the evils committed by the church during the history of this nation?

Christians can rally round the flag and sing God bless America - yet one can't speak the truth about the evils committed under that flag?

I have as much right to speak the truth against the flag as you do to fly it.

This is American: I have as much right to speak against this false christian President as those who praise and support him.

We can talk about Germany and the holocaust, yet should ignore our own genocidal past?

That christians don't want to acknowledge and speak about the ugly past of the church in this nation shows a very problematic mindset.

This isn't just about a long past history, this is about people living today who suffered.

I was a kid living outside Newark NJ during the race riots.

I was alive for the Martin Luther King part of our history.

It was just in 1966 that Texas Western College beat favorite Kentucky 72-65 to win the 1966 NCAA title causing quite a controversy.

Of course you have the right to criticize America and the Christians that live here and the past.

But, what are you doing about it?
What is the solution?

Eaglenester
Jun 24th 2008, 02:10 PM
Not sure what church you're talking about. Maybe you need to find a different church to go to. Mine certainly isn't this way. Your point rings political to me. It sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder. And like I said in a previous post, it's unbalanced. But hey, cool thing about living in the US, you can criticize her and her churches and not worry about going to jail.

Well you can try to judge my heart and motives according to your flesh all you want.

The "church" I'm talking about is the church as a whole.

It's no different than the child molestation that took place in the roman catholic church, the church tried to hide it - catholics get upset when you bring it up "my church wasn't guilty".
Ignore, excuse, defend..........

And the flag waving patriotic christian message is "balanced" :giveup:
View it that I'm giving balance to that message.



But, what are you doing about it?
What is the solution?

This is one of the things I'm doing about it - education - awareness.

The first step in a solution is to acknowledge - then a true healing process can begin.

Then when we try to minister to those hardened and hearting heart who were the innocents who suffered we can say
"Yes we did that, it was wrong, I'm sorry you were hurt by it"
Then there is one less wedge, and we can go forward with healing and reconciliation.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 24th 2008, 02:23 PM
This is one of the things I'm doing about it - education - awareness.

The first step in a solution is to acknowledge - then a true healing process can begin.

Then when we try to minister to those hardened and hearting heart who were the innocents who suffered we can say
"Yes we did that, it was wrong, I'm sorry you were hurt by it"
Then there is one less wedge, and we can go forward with healing and reconciliation.

What else are you doing? Are you trying to render the solution on a larger scale? Because just posting on one message board isn't going to do much in the long run.

I know you think your approach amounts to educating and bringing awareness, but it's coming off very harsh and with that the spirit doesn't seem right. It feels condemning and we know now therefore there is no more condemnation to those who are in Christ.
You know there are two groups involved in this, those who have done the offending and those who have been offended, if you want to bridge the gap please remember both in love and kindness.

There's going to have to be something accomplished on a grander scale if the issue is as severe as you seem to think.

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 03:20 PM
BOTH.

Harboring unforgiveness is also just as wrong as the initial sinful behavior.

Feeding on and fueling the unforgiveness (like "pastor" Wright) is evil.
2 wrongs don't make a right.And this is where I very much agree. It is both. So think on something... in all seriousness. If it is an issue that is a BOTH issue (totally agree) then make it a both issue. Not sure if you actually realize it... but you are making it a "white" issue. All that does is keep the issues alive.

The past has a funny way of often times keeping us in that past. In doing that... we never do press on to what lies ahead.

Fenris
Jun 24th 2008, 03:43 PM
Um, I have no problem discussing America's past. But please let's acknowledge that it happened in the past. And to compare America's crimes to that of truly tyrannical regimes like Nazi Germany is to cheapen the meaning of true evil.

markedward
Jun 24th 2008, 05:51 PM
It's true evil... just on a smaller scale.

Fenris
Jun 24th 2008, 05:53 PM
Obviously we have different definitions of the word 'evil'.

Clavicula_Nox
Jun 24th 2008, 06:03 PM
I don't see anything wrong with being unpatriotic, and I do see something wrong with putting country over God, though I can't say I see that too often.

I also see something wrong with punishing me for the actions of people who predated my families existence in this country, that's just plain asinine.l

markedward
Jun 24th 2008, 06:48 PM
Obviously we have different definitions of the word 'evil'.Why? Just because I say that what America did in the past as a whole nation was evil? Slavery and bigotry of people based on their skin color, legalized murder, massacres of the native peoples, forcing them onto small reservations, burning people alive because they were different. That's not very different from what the Nazis did. It's the exact same thing, just on a smaller scale. This shouldn't even be an argument. What the "American" people did was downright evil. Forgive me if you think I'm being insensitive, but you'd just be putting words in my mouth. I think what the Nazis did was evil. But no one is going to tell me what America did in the past is a joke compared to "true evil" just because it didn't involve half of the globe. Whether you're one man who murders five people, or a hundred thousand who murder five hundred thousand people, or a million who murder five million people, you can't arbitrarily change the meaning of "evil" just because it had more people involved.

[/end]

Fenris
Jun 24th 2008, 06:55 PM
Slavery and bigotry of people based on their skin colorInexcusable. Still, slavery is not murder.


legalized murderOf who?


massacres of the native peoplesIt's called 'war' and sadly, it is part of the human condition.


forcing them onto small reservations,No one was 'forced' anywhere. They were given reservations. They could live anywhere they chose.


burning people aliveUm, what?


That's not very different from what the Nazis did.
It's very different from what the Nazis did. The Nazis set out to murder wholesale anyone who was 'subhuman'. Not enslave. Not steal their property. Murder.

Ekeak
Jun 24th 2008, 11:33 PM
Doesn't it say somewhere in the Bible, do what your Government says? Basically all our government asks us to do here in America is to be patriotic and vote. That's easy to follow.

Eaglenester
Jun 24th 2008, 11:56 PM
Murder Of who?


No one was 'forced' anywhere. They were given reservations. They could live anywhere they chose.
.

Try studying true history - the natives were murdered, massacred on a grand scale.

They were FORCED from their land and onto reservation, with no choice other than go or be killed - this is an indisputable FACT

Have you ever heard of the trail of tears????
Where the 5 civilized tribes were forced to march (under penalty of death) from their lands in the east to the reservation in Oklahoma.

Our soldiers routinely rapped the women, slaughtered the children.
We permanently wiped out several tribes out of existence.

Then try to claim we have the "moral authority" to condemn and judge other nations????

This whole notion that we are historically a "christian" is a great big farce.
And those that are proclaiming from the pulpits are false teachers.

Fenris
Jun 25th 2008, 12:08 AM
Then try to claim we have the "moral authority" to condemn and judge other nations????

Um, yes, we may. You see, no one alive today was involved in any of those events. Today, which is what's important, this is the freest, most just and charitable society on earth.

As a reference point, I don't blame the present generation of Germans for the Holocaust either.

WonderWoman4Jesus
Jun 25th 2008, 12:19 AM
First of all, holding a county's past mistakes against it doesn't mean it hasn't done some good things. We all know that many things in our history are wrong such as slavery, what happened to the Indians, etc. There are a list of things America should think long and hard about. However, we have freed many people and given hope to many who would have none. You are free here to say what you want, protest etc.

Now, if you don't like the country, then why do you live here? There are plenty of other countries that you could live in. Do you hold the regime of the Nazis against Germany, the slaughter of many innocent Russians under Stalin against Russia? I believe you should pray for your country, because if you're a Christian, than one that serves the Lord is truly blessed. You should pray for the leaders, whether you like them or not, because we're obligated as Christians to love everyone.

I love being an American no matter what the far-left loons say we're a good, honest country.

WonderWoman4Jesus
Jun 25th 2008, 12:25 AM
I don't think anyone here is denying that America has done some pretty bad things in the past. If we're going in that vein, why are you a Christian? If you're judging something on its past people have said "Christian" things and done awful stuff like the Crusades, Salem Witch Trials, and the Spanish Inquisition. I believe if anyone has a right to complain in this country it is the Indians who were forced from their homes, made to walk long distances, put on reservations, and killed with small pox and other diseases. Yes, America has done wrong.

There has been people who were oppressed and hated and treated wrongly in this country. All people make mistakes, and yes, we should examine them so they arent' repeated. However, you should judge the country on its whole rather than pinpointing everything it's done wrong.

Clavicula_Nox
Jun 25th 2008, 12:41 AM
Try studying true history - the natives were murdered, massacred on a grand scale.

They were FORCED from their land and onto reservation, with no choice other than go or be killed - this is an indisputable FACT

Have you ever heard of the trail of tears????
Where the 5 civilized tribes were forced to march (under penalty of death) from their lands in the east to the reservation in Oklahoma.

Our soldiers routinely rapped the women, slaughtered the children.
We permanently wiped out several tribes out of existence.

Then try to claim we have the "moral authority" to condemn and judge other nations????

This whole notion that we are historically a "christian" is a great big farce.
And those that are proclaiming from the pulpits are false teachers.

I don't understand what any of those things have to do with holding us accountable for that. Is the son accountable for the sins of the father?

Eaglenester
Jun 25th 2008, 12:44 AM
I'm happy to be a child of Yah - regardless of which borders I fall into.

I'm in American because that's where Yahweh has placed me, that doesn't mean I must love the country and be patriotic - if that were so those followers of Messiah that were placed in totalitarian regimes should love their country and be patriotic.

I'm not saying America is worse than other nations - but I don't accept the fairytale that we are greater either - we are no different than the others.

And YES there ARE people alive today that suffered under the evils of this Nation do the words "civil rights movement" mean anything????????

When was the last time you visited a reservation???????

America was NEVER a great nation of Yahweh - it's a big fat lie - history records that fact.

We are a secular nation under the dominion of satan: the prince of this world.

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 01:07 AM
We are a secular nation under the dominion of satan: the prince of this world.

And there we have it. Government is of the enemy and by the enemy.

Sounds to me like you hate governments and the USA. It has seemed that way the entire thread. As I said before, there sure seems to be a chip on your shoulder. I could point out all the injustices that Paul did in his past. Didn't mean he was currently evil. Government is not evil. It was established by God in order to deal with evil. Some governments do evil things because the men running them are evil.

As Fenris has pointed out, the US has done a lot of good in the world whether you want to recognize that or not. Living in the past doesn't do anyone much good.

Eaglenester
Jun 25th 2008, 01:19 AM
Well by all your statements - showing this has happened in the past - proves my point.

That America does not have the history as a "christian" nation.

Yes we are better now, in near recent history - we started out very very badly founded on evil works.

All these pastor shoving "America was a christian nation" is a lie.

And Mark - by your theology - God established the "evil" governments also, so then they must also be good.

Most every nation justifies and excuses it's evil deeds and acts of war.

Eaglenester
Jun 25th 2008, 01:22 AM
And Mark - I have not engaged in personal attacks or insults.

I have just discussed issues, you have not been so noble back.
As a moderator, are you responses of The Holy Spirit or you flesh?

I've shown enough here.
Shalom

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 01:25 AM
And Mark - I have not engaged in personal attacks or insults.

I have just discussed issues, you have not been so noble back.
As a moderator, are you responses of The Holy Spirit or you flesh?

I've shown enough here.
Shalom

Ah, so noble now? I have suggested that you have a chip on your shoulder. As I have said, the tone of the thread was not that inspiring.

Yea, as far as I can tell, I responded in the Spirit throughout the thread. And I will say again, living in the past won't help anyone.

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 01:29 AM
Well by all your statements - showing this has happened in the past - proves my point.

That America does not have the history as a "christian" nation.

Yes we are better now, in near recent history - we started out very very badly founded on evil works.

All these pastor shoving "America was a christian nation" is a lie.

And Mark - by your theology - God established the "evil" governments also, so then they must also be good.

Most every nation justifies and excuses it's evil deeds and acts of war.

Twist it anyway you wish EG. Like I said before, government is good. People are bad. Get bad people in government and they will abuse the power. I never said the US was a christian nation. But it was founded on some Christian ideals and was far superior to what was available at the time. And it is a superior nation now. To deny God has used this country in a very good and productive way is well, flat out denying history too. This country has grown and repented of many things she did that were wrong. She is not perfect now. As many people do, she has her good points and her bad points.

Living in folks evil past doesn't do a lot of good for anyone, especially when that past has been repented of.

Eaglenester
Jun 25th 2008, 01:31 AM
Ah, so noble now? I have suggested that you have a chip on your shoulder. As I have said, the tone of the thread was not that inspiring.

Yea, as far as I can tell, I responded in the Spirit throughout the thread. And I will say again, living in the past won't help anyone.

You engaged in trying to shot the messenger and trying to judge my heart and intention - NOT of The Holy Spirit, for He would do it accurately.

You've missed my entire point as your statement proves.

Pastors trying to say the history of this nation is as a christian one, and we need to return to it (the past) and I show the past is not so - and you say to get out of the past.

Dug a whole to show my point.

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 01:37 AM
You engaged in trying to shot the messenger and trying to judge my heart and intention - NOT of The Holy Spirit, for He would do it accurately.

You've missed my entire point as your statement proves.

Pastors trying to say the history of this nation is as a christian one, and we need to return to it (the past) and I show the past is not so - and you say to get out of the past.

Dug a whole to show my point.

You asked in the beginning if a Christian could love his nation. It was about patriotism. Now it's about being a Christian nation. Carry on, you won't convince too many folks though. Condemning the country for past mistakes doesn't mean one should not love his or her country. Love of one's country is fine and good. To love the country above a believer or another human being in any country would be wrong.

I stand by everything I said in the thread. I am sure you do as well. Keep bringing up all the wrongs and for the most part, you'll alienate folks. Why? Because as Fenris pointed out, the nation has repented of those things and changed. And since we are made up of people, we have more things to repent of.

dan
Jun 25th 2008, 02:20 AM
Well by all your statements - showing this has happened in the past - proves my point.

That America does not have the history as a "christian" nation.

I disagree. I know that the Founders revered God and Jesus, you can hear it in their writings.


Yes we are better now, in near recent history - we started out very very badly founded on evil works.

Did you know that Washington tried to end slavery in his first term? Southern legislators wouldn't go along.


All these pastor shoving "America was a christian nation" is a lie.

And Mark - by your theology - God established the "evil" governments also, so then they must also be good.

I'd go easy on that "lie" stuff.

As for evil governments being good, I think of them as being useful to God. Useful in testing the resolve of man to be good.


Most every nation justifies and excuses it's evil deeds and acts of war.

True. But the USA has something like no other nation. It is the most profitable to Christ in so many ways. More than any other, ever.
Jesus said that a nation would be awarded the "Kingdom Of God" because Israel would not produce the "fruits" that a Godly nation should.

MT 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
MT 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

When the last wars come, I believe, the USA will be the last refuge:

JN 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
JN 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
JN 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
JN 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Eaglenester
Jun 25th 2008, 02:56 AM
Many of the founding fathers were masons - and as thus, not true christians.

Look at all the pagan and masonic imagery in our buildings and monuments.

A good book to check out is:

The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power Is Destroying the Church by Gregory Boyd


Boyd from the outset makes the distinction between worldly governments, which he refers to either as the kingdom of the sword or the kingdom of the world with the kingdom of the cross or the kingdom of God. The former is characterized in all cases by a self-interested "power over" others. This is true even in the most just and fair governments as well as in the most tyrannical. The kingdom of God, however, is characterized by disinterested, loving "power under." Boyd shows that Jesus repeatedly in the New Testament refused any "power over" role, despite being the son of God, instead continually acting out in his life a "power under" self-sacrificial love, a way of living he demanded of his followers. Over and over the NT emphasizes that Christians are to live out the life of Christ in love and service to others. Moreover, this love is to be indiscriminate, and not given only to those who are like us and share our views. In fact, Jesus emphasizes that it is those on the furthermost edges that we are most to show our love to, not by judging them and legislating against them, but by serving them. There is little doubt that if Jesus were walking the streets of America today, he would be spending all his time with gays and people with AIDS and drug addicts and the poorest of the poor.


Boyd sees a large number of failings in the Religious Right today. He hints that people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are, in fact, heretics. Boyd asks why we so often identify people as heretics based on some religious belief, when in fact Jesus emphasizes over and over how crucial it is to love others. He asks, when has anyone ever been identified as a heretic because they failed to love as Jesus commanded them to do. And that is much of his complaint with the Religious Right: their patent failure to love. Boyd stresses that if we are actually expanding the kingdom of God, it will look like Jesus, it will look like love in action. It will not look like people who fanatically attack gays, who ferociously delight in the killing of terrorists or Arabs, who are obsessed in condemning others as sinners.


One of the reasons that James Madison pushed through constitutional clauses that divided church in state both in Virginia and later in the United States was that he felt that a close alignment of any religious body with a government did great harm to the the church. Madison pointed out that if the church closely aligned itself with a particular political party, then when that party went out of favor, the church would be rejected along with the sectarian political party. Boyd explains in great detail the many dangers to the kingdom of God whenever it is confused with kingdom of the world. Therefore, the greatest dangers to the church are those who want to Christianize America, for they not only trivialize religion, they profanize the holy.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 25th 2008, 07:08 AM
Eaglenester,
Can you not find anything positive about this nation?

I can, even if I believed all the negatives you've brought up here, some entirely out of context. But the thing I know is a great positive and is well pleasing to God is; this nation has allowed, encouraged and protected the freedom to worship the King of Kings and to spred His Gospel, freely, without fear or negative repercussions.

Brother, in love of the Lord, your posts come across filled with animosity and an unhealthy anger, how can this be? Especially since you don't offer much in the way of solutions. You've condemned, but not offered a way of escape. Jesus said the weighter things of the law were justice and mercy.

I hope you will take to heart and the spirit in which it is given, once again, this Scripture:
Philippians 4:8
Finally brethern, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is lovely, whatever is admiralbe, if anything is excellent or praise worthy. Think about such things.

Fenris
Jun 25th 2008, 10:57 AM
This country was founded on evil works? :rolleyes:

This country was founded on principles of democratic principles of representative government. A new idea in the history of the world.

But don't let facts get in the way of trashing my country....

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 01:59 PM
Boyd from the outset makes the distinction between worldly governments, which he refers to either as the kingdom of the sword or the kingdom of the world with the kingdom of the cross or the kingdom of God. The former is characterized in all cases by a self-interested "power over" others. This is true even in the most just and fair governments as well as in the most tyrannical. The kingdom of God, however, is characterized by disinterested, loving "power under." Boyd shows that Jesus repeatedly in the New Testament refused any "power over" role, despite being the son of God, instead continually acting out in his life a "power under" self-sacrificial love, a way of living he demanded of his followers. Over and over the NT emphasizes that Christians are to live out the life of Christ in love and service to others. Moreover, this love is to be indiscriminate, and not given only to those who are like us and share our views. In fact, Jesus emphasizes that it is those on the furthermost edges that we are most to show our love to, not by judging them and legislating against them, but by serving them. There is little doubt that if Jesus were walking the streets of America today, he would be spending all his time with gays and people with AIDS and drug addicts and the poorest of the poor.

Interesting quote. I happen to agree with the power thing. I think the religious right has gotten out of line in some areas. As for the last line of the quote, it is wrong. When Jesus was here, he did spend time with sinners. But he spent the vast majority of his time with the 12 and those that loved Him. He did reach out and went to the highways and byways and gathered together those that were full of sin. But he spent far more time with those that heeded his call than those that resisted his call.


One of the reasons that James Madison pushed through constitutional clauses that divided church in state both in Virginia and later in the United States was that he felt that a close alignment of any religious body with a government did great harm to the the church. Madison pointed out that if the church closely aligned itself with a particular political party, then when that party went out of favor, the church would be rejected along with the sectarian political party. Boyd explains in great detail the many dangers to the kingdom of God whenever it is confused with kingdom of the world. Therefore, the greatest dangers to the church are those who want to Christianize America, for they not only trivialize religion, they profanize the holy.

This is an interesting take. I see bad things in scripture when politics and religion come together. That doesn't mean God doesn't want Godly men in politics just that religion and politics don't seem to go together well. Combining priesthood and king together in one role just isn't something us mortals should do, imo.

But as others have pointed out, is there anything good in the USA you see?

Eaglenester
Jun 25th 2008, 02:02 PM
I don't "hate" this country, but I don't revere her as something better than the others either, or a nation any more established by Yah than other nations.

I don't view her as a "christian" nation as complete history proves otherwise, yes she was settled by many christians.

Yes she has done some good, but so have others mixed good deeds with evil.

Yes Yahweh has worked through her, but He works mightily through totalitarian regimes also, He works through wars, through disasters, through murders - that doesn't make them good though.

As far as our freedom to worship goes, it has also has made us complacent and lazy as a body - look at China or India: persecution brings growth to the body of Messiah.
Persecution is coming to America and it will strengthen the true ekklesia.

What I do hate is the christian leaders trying to peddle patriotism as part of christianity, trying to rally Yah's elect round the flag, trying to make America as something she is not and never was.
I hate christians leaders being more focused on values and morality than on Messiah and making disciples, using the political and judicial realms of power to try to bring others into obedience and enforce them.

Yahweh's Kingdom comes about with a rebirth of the heart by Him, not by judges and politicians and laws.

If more christian leaders would take the effort they put towards trying to stop abortion and homosexual marriage and instead put it towards making disciples and equipping the saints - then maybe there would be hope for America.

We are not blessed by which country we live in, we are blessed by who we are in Messiah regardless of which borders we are in.

I don't say "God bless America" - I say "America bless God"

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 02:11 PM
As far as our freedom to worship goes, it has also has made us complacent and lazy as a body - look at China or India: persecution brings growth to the body of Messiah.
Persecution is coming to America and it will strengthen the true ekklesia.

Freedom doesn't make one complacent... man's heart does that. God often blesses those that are his. They get complacent. It happened to Israel and it has happened in the US. But the wealth from God doesn't have hooks in it. It's man's heart that leads him astray.


What I do hate is the christian leaders trying to peddle patriotism as part of christianity, trying to rally Yah's elect round the flag, trying to make America as something she is not and never was.
I hate christians leaders being more focused on values and morality than on Messiah and making disciples, using the political and judicial realms of power to try to bring others into obedience and enforce them.

While I am not for controlling folks and using government to push kingdom ideals, I do believe God gave government to men in order to keep evil in check. There is simply no reason for government to endorse evil. It's not what God intended government to be.


Yahweh's Kingdom comes about with a rebirth of the heart by Him, not by judges and politicians and laws.

Yep.


If more christian leaders would take the effort they put towards trying to stop abortion and homosexual marriage and instead put it towards making disciples and equipping the saints - then maybe there would be hope for America.

Jesus preached for 3 years and did many great signs. How well did that work out for Israel? People go to hell because they choose to reject God not because of the church. Having said that, governments role is to stop evil men from harming the innocent and abortion is about as evil as it gets. Government should intervene in abortion. Nor should government give a wholesale endorsement to hom*s*xual lifestyles. That is part of the reason God judged Sodom as a whole. Of course, another reason he judged them was they oppressed the poor.


We are not blessed by which country we live in, we are blessed by who we are in Messiah regardless of which borders we are in.

He blessed us by placing us in the country we live in.


I don't say "God bless America" - I say "America bless God"

Both are excellent things to say. I wouldn't leave out God bless America at all!

So, what good things do you like about the USA?

Fenris
Jun 25th 2008, 02:28 PM
I don't "hate" this country, but I don't revere her as something better than the others either, or a nation any more established by Yah than other nations.Every nation is established by God. But each nation chooses for itself whether it will be good or evil. And in the history of the world, this nation does better than any other.



As far as our freedom to worship goes, it has also has made us complacent and lazy as a body - look at China or India: persecution brings growth to the body of Messiah.Go try living in a nation where you aren't free to worship as you please. Then tell me how terrible freedom is.


What I do hate is the christian leaders trying to peddle patriotism as part of christianity, trying to rally Yah's elect round the flag, trying to make America as something she is not and never was.I see it as being good to a country that has been good to you.


I hate christians leaders being more focused on values and morality than on Messiah and making disciplesIf you don't live up to the values and morals that God expects of you, I don't see how you can call yourself Christian. Certainly it's nothing to be proud of.

JesusPhreak27
Jun 27th 2008, 05:47 AM
The following is what Paul writes about following the Gov't:





1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.


Paul does state that we are to follow the RULES and LAWS established by human gov't.


2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

This is the verse I have a little trouble with. I am completely against Pres. Bush and am also against John McCain. I am not pro Obama (Yes I know he may or may not be Muslim...yada yada yada) Im actually voting AGAINST McCain -- In this election season he is the best of two VERY poor choices.

The problem I have with this verse is that if our elected officials are not serving us in a way that is beneficial or are outright lying and stealing from us (*cough* Bush *cough* Cheney *cough*) then it is our right (patriotic)to stand up and elect a person who will lead this country.


3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.


4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.


5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

To me this verse is saying that it is our duty to follow our duly elected leaders but that does not mean we have to follow them blindly. Just because a leader is Republican or Democrat or CLAIMS to be a Cristian that doesnt mean we have to follow and agree with everything they say. Look at Pres. Bush.....he claims to be a Christian but has done nothing but line the pockets of his rich cronies since day one.


6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.

I think too many of our elected leaders forget this verse...... They serve Yahweh AND the people.



7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Though this verse states that we are to give these things to our elected leaders this does not mean that we have to give it blindly. If the leaders are doing wrong for the country or are abusing their power then they are owed nothing.

Folks I know my opinions may not be recieved well on this site as most are likely to be conservative (right wing) and I am more moderate left wing now a days......but it is my belief that it is our patriotic and Christian duty to do what is best for our country.

We are made in the likeness of the one true God. and He did not bestow the feats that He performed bringing Israel out of persecution and slavery (Egypt) just for us to sit here and say "Well Person A is the leader of the country so that means we MUST follow what he says.....he's a "Christian" so he must know best.

The ones who walk around proclaiming how "Christian" or "righteos" they are are the ones most likely to lead us down the wrong path.

Should I continue to support a gov't who has made it possible for OPEC to raise prices on oil/gas to a point where it costs me almost $50 to fill the tank of my wife's car that 5 years ago it cost AT MOST $15? Should I support a president that continues to stretch our military to a point where we are sending soldiers to Iraq/Afghanistan for upwards or 2 years having them come back for 6 months then sending them back for another 2 years? Should I support a gov't that has almost destroyed our Social Security system? Should I support a Gov't that has allowed food prices to skyrocket? Should I support a gov't that has allowed thousands of people to be frauded into buying houses on a basis inwhich thaey are now forced to live on the streets because lending companies are foreclosing? Or should I stand up and say its time for a change?

jewel4Christ
Jun 27th 2008, 06:02 AM
Interesting thread.

I agree that the usa is no better than any other nation, on the "spiritual level".

Sin is sin..God does not measure sin by how many good works or deeds is done, and that includes the deeds or good works of the usa.

God measures sin as when you break one, you are guilty of all.

If only America could see their own equal sin, the world would be a better place.

peaceandlove,

janet

redeemedbyhim
Jun 27th 2008, 06:20 AM
Interesting thread.

I agree that the usa is no better than any other nation, on the "spiritual level".

Sin is sin..God does not measure sin by how many good works or deeds is done, and that includes the deeds or good works of the usa.

God measures sin as when you break one, you are guilty of all.

If only America could see their own equal sin, the world would be a better place.

peaceandlove,

janet

Forgive me, but I think the last line is a serious charge. How do you know America does not see her sin and what do you mean by "equal" sin?
America is made up of human beings and all are imperfect. God has said that if HIS people would turn from THEIR wicked ways and repent, He would heal their land. God is looking to us, His people.

Is it just America that needs to do whatever you're suggesting to make this world a better place? Is the onus only on the U.S.?

Fenris
Jun 27th 2008, 09:51 AM
In Judaism, there is the abstract concept of being good to someone/something that has been good to you. For example, Moses was not permitted to strike the Nile to begin the plague of blood, because the Nile protected Moses as an infant. He was similarly not allowed to strike the earth and begin the plague of lice, because the earth hid the Egyptian he slew. Further, we are commanded "You should not hate an Egyptian because you were a sojourner in his land".

This country has been very good to all of us. It is therefore incumbent upon us to be good to this country. To do any less is to be an ingrate.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 27th 2008, 02:07 PM
This country has been very good to all of us. It is therefore incumbent upon us to be good to this country. To do any less is to be an ingrate.


I think it bohooves all of us to remember this country has many good things and to me, the biggest is that we have freedom of worship.
As much as the secular humanist would love to see God banned in all ways, the constitution has protected us thus far. I believe the constitution is an instrument of God for that purpose.

The Gospel is freely preached and from these shores the Gospel has been sent worldwide. Freely we have recieved, freely we have given.

I don't know if you've heard of Rabbi Daniel Lapin? But, I've heard this very find man extol the virtues of America in relation to the freedom and protection that Jews have enjoyed like no other place on earth, in his opinion. I think he's right.

Fenris
Jun 27th 2008, 02:15 PM
I don't know if you've heard of Rabbi Daniel Lapin? But, I've heard this very find man extol the virtues of America in relation to the freedom and protection that Jews have enjoyed like no other place on earth, in his opinion. I think he's right.
Oh, absolutely. There has been no country better to Jews in the history of the world, in my opinion. Any Jew who doesn't love America is an absolute ingrate.

jewel4Christ
Jun 27th 2008, 02:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1687485#post1687485)
Interesting thread.

I agree that the usa is no better than any other nation, on the "spiritual level".

Sin is sin..God does not measure sin by how many good works or deeds is done, and that includes the deeds or good works of the usa.

God measures sin as when you break one, you are guilty of all.

If only America could see their own equal sin, the world would be a better place.

peaceandlove,

janet


Forgive me, but I think the last line is a serious charge. How do you know America does not see her sin and what do you mean by "equal" sin?
America is made up of human beings and all are imperfect. God has said that if HIS people would turn from THEIR wicked ways and repent, He would heal their land. God is looking to us, His people.

Is it just America that needs to do whatever you're suggesting to make this world a better place? Is the onus only on the U.S.?
http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1687496)

By equal sin, I mean what the bible teaches concerning sin.

Let me explain.

There is no type of "righteousness" outside of the imputed type that comes only through the blood of Jesus.

God only has one "nation" that qualifies therefore.

The idea that the usa is somehow more righteouss than the rest of the world is a lie.

It was born in the ideas of men, whom do not understand the heart and mind of God...(fleshly men, or what we would call secular)

The bible teaches that those whom exalt themselves shall be abased, and that means brough down to where they really stand before God.

I do not hold ANY nation on the face of this earth as "better" or more righteouss, for that reason.

I personally believe along with alot of other christians that those whom speak evil against their neighbor, by calling them evil, and cannot see their own estate or standing before God are deceived.

I hope that answers your question.

God says, when you break one rule, you are JUST as guilty as IF you broke everyone, but that is not what the usa believes on a secular scale, and that is also what most christians do not believe.

They all are forgetting that unless one is washed in the blood, they stand as "wicked" before God.

Big brother will be called on it, sooner than we all think, in mho.


peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 27th 2008, 02:58 PM
I think it bohooves all of us to remember this country has many good things and to me, the biggest is that we have freedom of worship.
As much as the secular humanist would love to see God banned in all ways, the constitution has protected us thus far. I believe the constitution is an instrument of God for that purpose.

Any christian is free to worship God wherever they live...even if they are tied and bound and put in prison. Man cannot stop the true worship of God.

Ask the apostle Paul, or John someday, whom were both carried away by governments of men, and see if they stopped worshipping Jesus...it is coming here, too. Will you stop worshipping God just because they tell you, that you are not free to do so? Think about it.

Jesus was even worshipping the Father while He hung on a tree....


This world has put up smokescreens, but they are about to come down.


mho.

Gotta run to town, be back later.

peaceandlove,

janet

matthew94
Jun 27th 2008, 04:48 PM
Depends on what you mean by Patriotism. I've seen 'Christians' who are more 'patriotic' to their country than devoted to Christ. And, of course, this is a huge problem. Chritians are primarily citizens of heaven. We are, secondarily, to be good citizens of the nation God has placed us in. We should not, so much, be prideful about our nation, but thankful that God placed us there.

jewel4Christ
Jun 27th 2008, 09:00 PM
Depends on what you mean by Patriotism. I've seen 'Christians' who are more 'patriotic' to their country than devoted to Christ. And, of course, this is a huge problem. Chritians are primarily citizens of heaven. We are, secondarily, to be good citizens of the nation God has placed us in. We should not, so much, be prideful about our nation, but thankful that God placed us there.

Yes, when the root is pride, it is sinful.

That which exalts itself shall be abased...and, that which exalts itself is the spirit of this WORLD.

peaceandlove,

janet

David Taylor
Mar 6th 2009, 05:29 PM
(thread closed as per...Slug1)
As the OP has changed his status to Non-Christian and can no longer participate in this thread, as per Slug1 the thread is now closed.

Thanks to all who have participated!