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Jim
Jun 23rd 2008, 11:12 PM
Greetings!

I am new to the board, so not 100% sure I am posting in the proper place. I certainly am not intending to start an argument or anything of that nature but found a board statement that doesn't exactly seem just right.

Because I am new here, I have been reading all the "Rules," and the definition of "Are you a Christian?" seemed like a rather strange definition of a Christian, biblically speaking.

The subject under Board Rules: Definition of "Are you a Christian?" in profile (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=61168):

"A Christian is a follower of Jesus of Nazareth, referred to as Christ or Messiah. Christians believe Jesus to be the only Son of God, who lived a sinless life.He is eternal, uncreated God, and has always been and will always be God, the creator of the universe. At the end of his earthly life He was crucified, on the third day He rose from the dead, and later ascended into heaven."

I would like to make a comment in regards to the statement "A Christian is a follower of Jesus of Nazareth."

Discipleship is separate from and is in contrast with the doctrine of salvation. One believes on Jesus Christ to be become a Christian, while one serves Jesus Christ to become a disciple. All believers are not disciples. All disciples are not believers.

Being a disciple has nothing to do with a person's salvation. The classic example is that of Judas Iscariot. Judas, although a disciple of Jesus, was never a believer; therefore, he was never saved.

John 6:64,71
64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. (emphasis added)

Salvation divides the world into two groups: those that believe and those that believe not.

John 3:18
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God "

A person is either saved or lost. There is no middle ground. The difference being only whether they believe or believe not on Jesus Christ. Human works have nothing to do with salvation! Salvation is by faith without works according to Ephesians 2:8-9 and many, many other passages.

Discipleship is also divided into two groups. There is no middle ground. You either serve or you serve not. Discipleship is clearly based upon works! See Malachi 3:18, "Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous, (the believer - see Romans 3:10, Romans 4:5), and the wicked, (the unbeliever - see Romans 3:10-19), between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not."

The question that needs be asked is where do you stand? Are you a believer? Then you are saved! If you are saved you ought to serve, not to be saved (which is impossible), but serve because you are already saved (John 5:24).

I hope and pray that every person who hears the gospel makes both decisions that God gave us to make. That you believe on Christ to be saved (Acts 16:31), and then choose to be a disciple. Remember a disciple is one who makes a conscious decision to follow Christ in pursuit of becoming a fisher of men.

Matthew 4:19
"And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."
(emphasis added)




Your friend in Christ,

Jim
<><


Reference: Dr Lindstrum

FollowTheBanner
Jun 23rd 2008, 11:26 PM
Interesting insights, Jim. I haven't thought about the distinction before. Welcome to BibleForums. :)

davidandme
Jun 24th 2008, 12:00 AM
What is a disciple? Let the Bible answer this one for us. The word used in the NT Bible for disciple is mathētēs what does that word mean? a learner, pupil, disciple. It is true that works can't save you at all. But you have a choice to walk away from Jesus. You can choose, not to be saved God does not force you to be saved. The Bible says. Choose who you will serve. I believe that in 99% of the cases if you are a believer in Christ you will be a disciple. Notice that I didn't say 100% because there are always expceptions, like the thieft on the cross or a person who is on his death bed and he just abcepted Jesus. God bless.

Thaddaeus
Jun 24th 2008, 12:35 AM
Discipleship is separate from and is in contrast with the doctrine of salvation. One believes on Jesus Christ to be become a Christian, while one serves Jesus Christ to become a disciple. All believers are not disciples. All disciples are not believers.

Being a disciple has nothing to do with a person's salvation. The classic example is that of Judas Iscariot. Judas, although a disciple of Jesus, was never a believer; therefore, he was never saved.


Bro. Jim I have somewhat against this statement, because I guess the key word we are missing here is a true Christian, For I believe Paul taught that a True Christian would be a follower of Jesus, For paul wrote show me your faith without works and I show you a dead faith. It would be far better to say that if we believe we will follow, and if we don't follow we do not believe. Look at it this way Ro 10:13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

in order to be saved we Must call upon the name of the LORD, it does not say call upon the name of the Saviour but LORD, in order to be save there must be obedience to our Lord, right before this verse it says to believe with thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead and confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus. see here it does not say to confess our sins, or to confess we are nothing but to confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, try this out, Jesus you are Lord of my life now, if we just confessed Him as Lord we will follow, or should I say we should follow our Lord now.

Ro 10:10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

God made a vow unto us that with our faith that He gave us to start with, He would saved us, with us calling upon or confessing Him as Lord, we are saying that we will follow Him. I think you are playing with some words here or whereever you are getting this doctrine from, because you see we have to have to whole Word of God I wonder what your teachings do with this verse

Jas 2:19 (http://bibleforums.org/jas+2:19)Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and TREMBLE.

see the way you have been taught we can call the devils christians, now I really don't won't to go there LOL. Christians are Christ like in order to be Christ like we must follow His steps, and do the things he did , this is what seperates us from the world
But now I am agreeing with you in this < we follow Christ because we are saved not to get saved , it is God that saves, by His fore knowledge . he knows the heart when we confess Him as Lord he knows our walk after we call upon the name of the Lord, thats what makes Him God. I think this is just another play on words someones says that a christian and a disciple are two different things and they could be but a christian could also be a disciple , and a disciple can also be a Christian if Not then the Word of God is wrong again when it says
Ac 11:26 (http://bibleforums.org/ac+11:26)And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called CHRISTIANS first in Antioch.

and Disagreeing with the Word of God is not a place I want to be as I follow My Lord and Saviour Jesus the Christ.



Reference: Dr Lindstrum
[/quote]

tgallison
Jun 24th 2008, 12:45 AM
Greetings!

I am new to the board, so not 100% sure I am posting in the proper place. I certainly am not intending to start an argument or anything of that nature but found a board statement that doesn't exactly seem just right.

Because I am new here, I have been reading all the "Rules," and the definition of "Are you a Christian?" seemed like a rather strange definition of a Christian, biblically speaking.

The subject under Board Rules: Definition of "Are you a Christian?" in profile (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=61168):

"A Christian is a follower of Jesus of Nazareth, referred to as Christ or Messiah. Christians believe Jesus to be the only Son of God, who lived a sinless life.He is eternal, uncreated God, and has always been and will always be God, the creator of the universe. At the end of his earthly life He was crucified, on the third day He rose from the dead, and later ascended into heaven."

I would like to make a comment in regards to the statement "A Christian is a follower of Jesus of Nazareth."

Discipleship is separate from and is in contrast with the doctrine of salvation. One believes on Jesus Christ to be become a Christian, while one serves Jesus Christ to become a disciple. All believers are not disciples. All disciples are not believers.

Being a disciple has nothing to do with a person's salvation. The classic example is that of Judas Iscariot. Judas, although a disciple of Jesus, was never a believer; therefore, he was never saved.

John 6:64,71
64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. (emphasis added)

Salvation divides the world into two groups: those that believe and those that believe not.

John 3:18
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God "

A person is either saved or lost. There is no middle ground. The difference being only whether they believe or believe not on Jesus Christ. Human works have nothing to do with salvation! Salvation is by faith without works according to Ephesians 2:8-9 and many, many other passages.

Discipleship is also divided into two groups. There is no middle ground. You either serve or you serve not. Discipleship is clearly based upon works! See Malachi 3:18, "Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous, (the believer - see Romans 3:10, Romans 4:5), and the wicked, (the unbeliever - see Romans 3:10-19), between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not."

The question that needs be asked is where do you stand? Are you a believer? Then you are saved! If you are saved you ought to serve, not to be saved (which is impossible), but serve because you are already saved (John 5:24).

I hope and pray that every person who hears the gospel makes both decisions that God gave us to make. That you believe on Christ to be saved (Acts 16:31), and then choose to be a disciple. Remember a disciple is one who makes a conscious decision to follow Christ in pursuit of becoming a fisher of men.

Matthew 4:19
"And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."
(emphasis added)




Your friend in Christ,

Jim
<><


Reference: Dr Lindstrum


Jim greetings

Totally disagree with you. Christian by definition, means follower of Christ.

Maybe you can be a follower and not be saved, but you can't be saved and not be a follower. You may not be a very good follower, but you have to be a follower.

When you accept Christ, you accept him as Lord and Master. If you don't accept him as Lord and Master, how can it be that your saved.

Anybody that truly knows Jesus loves Him and wants to please Him. The following is part of the knowing. You can follow him and not know Him, but you can't know Him and not want to follow Him. It is not about works, it is about love.

Matthew 10:37-38 "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."

In Jesus Christ, terrell

watchinginawe
Jun 24th 2008, 12:56 AM
Hello Jim. The "definition" is for posting as a Christian on this site. For clarity, here is the whole thing (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=61168):
For the purpose of posting as Christian on this board, we believe:

A Christian is a follower of Jesus of Nazareth, referred to as Christ or Messiah. Christians believe Jesus to be the only Son of God, who lived a sinless life. He is eternal, uncreated God, and has always been and will always be God, the creator of the universe. At the end of his earthly life He was crucified, on the third day He rose from the dead, and later ascended into heaven.

Christians further believe that Jesus alone offers salvation, and that it is only possible through and by Him. Apart from Jesus Christ, there is no salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 states that "It is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God that no one should boast". Humans cannot save themselves through good works, only Jesus can save them. Good works, however, are a result of living according to the Word of God.

Christians identify themselves as monotheistic, believing that there is one God.It is not our intention to define what a Christian is, but rather we want to define what it means to check "I am a Christian" for purposes of posting on this site. It might surprise you that there are many who would call themselves Christians but whose doctrine is completely contrary to the purposes of this forum. Conversely, there are believers who don't feel that they can in good conscience agree with our definition and therefore won't take the name of "Christian" on this site.

We have realized this and have attempted to give the best definition that fits for our purpose on the internet. We therefore believe that for purposes of posting here one is to be (among the other things mentioned) a "disciple indeed" to be a Christian:

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
...
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

God Bless!

Zack702
Jun 24th 2008, 01:03 AM
I believe in Jesus!
But I know that following him is not as easy as we might think.
Jesus came to make our way light but we still need to follow. Or at least try.

matthew94
Jun 24th 2008, 01:24 AM
I also TOTALLY disagree with the opening poster. The board statement is good. "The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch." The terms 'disciple' and 'Christian' are synonymous

BrckBrln
Jun 24th 2008, 02:20 AM
I also TOTALLY disagree with the opening poster. The board statement is good. "The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch." The terms 'disciple' and 'Christian' are synonymous

Yep, I also disagree with the OP. It sounds like he believes in no-lordship salvation, where you only have to make Jesus your Savior and not your Lord, as if they were separate.

Jim
Jun 24th 2008, 02:59 AM
Wow, it would take me days to answer all the replies on this. I did graduate from bible college but I don't have a photographic memory so let me just reply to this one for tonight as I go to bed early.


For I believe Paul taught that a True Christian would be a follower of Jesus, For paul wrote show me your faith without works and I show you a dead faith. This was not Paul but James I believe you are trying to quote (James 2:18)



in order to be saved we Must call upon the name of the LORD, it does not say call upon the name of the Saviour but LORD, in order to be save there must be obedience to our Lord, right before this verse it says to believe with thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead and confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus. This statment is simply not true, the NT says about 150 times salvation comes by believing or faith. 135 times by believing and 15 times by faith and 0 times by obedience.


God made a vow unto us that with our faith that He gave us to start with, He would saved us, with us calling upon or confessing Him as Lord, we are saying that we will follow Him. I think you are playing with some words here or whereever you are getting this doctrine from, because you see we have to have to whole Word of God I wonder what your teachings do with this verse


Jas 2:19 (http://bibleforums.org/jas+2:19)Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and TREMBLE.

Have you heard of EXEGESIS? Who was James writing to? You are reading someone else's mail and trying to apply it to your life my friend.

James 1:1
1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Are you one of the 12 Jewish tribes scattered abroad? If the answer is no, then are these verses written to you? They are written FOR you, but not to you! You must read interpret scripture in context.


Christians are Christ like in order to be Christ like we must follow His steps, and do the things he did , this is what separates us from the world What does Eph 2:8-9 mean to you? How about Titus 3:5?

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

God saves a person when he places his faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for eternal life. (1 Cor 15:1-4)

1 Corn 15: 1-4
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
2By this gospel you are saved, if you take hold to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, (This is the gospel {good news} by which every person must "believe" (trust-in, rely-on) today to be saved.





Ac 11:26 (http://bibleforums.org/ac+11:26)And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called CHRISTIANS first in Antioch. The students the disciples taught were called Christians too! They were baby Christians and not and not anywhere mature enough to be considered disciples yet.

{quote]and Disagreeing with the Word of God is not a place I want to be as I follow My Lord and Saviour Jesus the Christ.[/quote] You unknowling did just that my dear Christian friend. Sorry, but this is all I have time for tonight.

"The unsaved Gentile, in presenting the Gospel to these classes, there are one hundred and fifteen passages at least wherein the word "believe" is used alone and apart from every other condition as the only way of salvation. In addition to this there are upwards of thirty-five passages wherein its synonym "faith" is used." (written by Lewis Sperry Chafer)

I could go on my friend but this old man must go to bed now.



Your friend in Christ,

Jim
<><

evrgreenjhawk
Jun 24th 2008, 03:39 AM
Discipleship is separate from and is in contrast with the doctrine of salvation. One believes on Jesus Christ to be become a Christian, while one serves Jesus Christ to become a disciple. All believers are not disciples. All disciples are not believers.


Isn't sharing ones belief in Christ also serving Christ?



The students the disciples taught were called Christians too! They were baby Christians and not and not anywhere mature enough to be considered disciples yet.



This seems to me to imply some sort of test or right of passage to become a disciple...?

Jim
Jun 24th 2008, 11:16 AM
Isn't sharing ones belief in Christ also serving Christ?
Of course, evrgreenjhawk, but salvation comes by BELIEVING/FAITH and not by serving. Serving comes AFTER salvation. It is a "thank you" to God for having received the free gift of salvation.

Paul defines faith/believing for us very clearly in Romans 4:20–22: [Abraham] did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. And therefore ‘it was accounted to him for righteousness.’”

I believe this is the simplest and clearest definition of faith/believing that you will find in the Bible. Faith is a state in which we find ourselves fully convinced. Synonyms include certainty, assurance, confidence, certitude and so forth. As you read your way through the bible, continually remind your self that faith/believing is simply “being convinced that this is true!”

Believing in the Greek means the same as believing in English. If you "believe" a chair will hold your weight....you simply sit down. You do not have to "serve" the chair or "share" that the chair saved you from falling to "believe." Believe in Greek is "pisteuoô" and is defined as: "to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in."

.................................................. .....................

Someone mentioned Lord in a earlier post objection.


Two definitions of Lord . Savior


Definition #1; Lord: Godhead: terms referring to the Judeo-Christian God, a title.

Definition #2; Lord: A person (or deity) who has general authority over others. Rules over others who follow his teachings.


Definition: Savior: Concerning Christians; A deity who rescues mankind from harm, danger, loss or damnation. Savior in Christianity: Jesus, the son of God, the messiah.

Saying "Jesus is Lord" has two basic types of meaning.
1. Our relationship to Jesus (Our Lord, his disciples); the other is
2. Who Jesus really is.

One way to sum up the two meanings is:
1. Jesus is my master or Lord.
2. Jesus is Yahweh Lord God.


Jim
<><

tgallison
Jun 24th 2008, 12:14 PM
[quote=Jim;1682981]
"
.................................................. .....................

Someone mentioned Lord in a earlier post objection.


Two definitions of Lord . Savior


Definition #1; Lord: Godhead: terms referring to the Judeo-Christian God, a title.

Definition #2; Lord: A person (or deity) who has general authority over others. Rules over others who follow his teachings.


Definition: Savior: Concerning Christians; A deity who rescues mankind from harm, danger, loss or damnation. Savior in Christianity: Jesus, the son of God, the messiah.

Saying "Jesus is Lord" has two basic types of meaning.
1. Our relationship to Jesus (Our Lord, his disciples); the other is
2. Who Jesus really is.

One way to sum up the two meanings is:
1. Jesus is my master or Lord.
2. Jesus is Yahweh Lord God.


Jim
<><

Jim no matter how you define it, if you are born again, Jesus is your Lord and Master.

Repentance always comes before salvation. If you are part of the Church, you are called out. What you are having a problem with is looking at following as works, it is not, it is love.

To love Jesus, is to want to be with him.

brakelite
Jun 24th 2008, 12:41 PM
Jim, if believing is all that is necessary for salvation, please explain the following.

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Jamas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Re 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

evrgreenjhawk
Jun 24th 2008, 01:44 PM
Of course, evrgreenjhawk, but salvation comes by BELIEVING/FAITH and not by serving. Serving comes AFTER salvation. It is a "thank you" to God for having received the free gift of salvation.

Paul defines faith/believing for us very clearly in Romans 4:20–22: [Abraham] did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. And therefore ‘it was accounted to him for righteousness.’”

I believe this is the simplest and clearest definition of faith/believing that you will find in the Bible. Faith is a state in which we find ourselves fully convinced. Synonyms include certainty, assurance, confidence, certitude and so forth. As you read your way through the bible, continually remind your self that faith/believing is simply “being convinced that this is true!”

Believing in the Greek means the same as believing in English. If you "believe" a chair will hold your weight....you simply sit down. You do not have to "serve" the chair or "share" that the chair saved you from falling to "believe." Believe in Greek is "pisteuoô" and is defined as: "to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in."



Romans 9:4 (NLT)
They are the people of Israel, chosen to be God’s adopted children.[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%209:4&version=51#fen-NLT-28120a)] God revealed his glory to them. He made covenants with them and gave them his law. He gave them the privilege of worshiping him and receiving his wonderful promises.

By living in our gift of faith are we not examples and as so sharing, serving...disciples?

diffangle
Jun 24th 2008, 02:20 PM
Of course, evrgreenjhawk, but salvation comes by BELIEVING/FAITH and not by serving. Serving comes AFTER salvation. It is a "thank you" to God for having received the free gift of salvation.

Paul defines faith/believing for us very clearly in Romans 4:20–22: [Abraham] did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. And therefore ‘it was accounted to him for righteousness.’”


Faith is an action. Look at shama meaning hear and obey... faith is an action. Abrahams faith was active(his belief/trust by showing his willingness to obey by sacrificing Isaac), he heard and obeyed... that was counted to him as righteousness. The Scriptures say that Abraham obeyed/shama...

Gen 22:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gen&chapter=22&verse=18&version=kjv#18)And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed My voice.

It doesn't say that "because he believed", there was action involved. As we can see from James, even the demons believe in Him.

Jim
Jun 24th 2008, 03:12 PM
Romans 9:4 (NLT)
They are the people of Israel, chosen to be God’s adopted children.

God revealed his glory to them. He made covenants with them and gave them his law. He gave them the privilege of worshiping him and receiving his wonderful promises.

By living in our gift of faith are we not examples and as so sharing, serving...disciples? Dear evrgreenjhawk and friends,

I am going to have to make this my last post in this thread as I dont have the time to answer all the questions my original post triggered. I am sorry and apologize.

Evergreenjhawk, in bible study you MUST pay attention to what is written, to whom, and if it written to (Ask is this to a Christian in the Church Age?), or you will find yourself reading things God is speaking to a different groups of people, in a different dispensations (time peroid) as in the case above where you quote Saint Paul:

Romans 9:4 (NLT)
They are the people of Israel, chosen to be God’s adopted children. God revealed his glory to them. He made covenants with them and gave them his law. He gave them the privilege of worshiping him and receiving his wonderful promises.

evrgreenjhawk, do find anything in the above scripture addressed to you? Also, I would respectfully recommend you not use the NTL version of the bible for any serious study.

Please do not take this the wrong way, because I love you all in the Lord, but if you have not yet studied, or other posters have not yet studied soterology, biblical hermeneutics or even any study method of interpretation of bible scripture, it makes it virtually impossible to discuss doctrine. One ends up basing doctrine on human logic instead of God's inspired Word.

Isaiah 55:9
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Let me leave you with some basic bible study rules that should be of great help if you follow the rules in your study time.


Basic Bible Study Rules


Scripture will never contradict scriptures.
Some truths may seem paradoxical.
Never use an obscure passage to contradict the clear teaching of scripture.
Always seek the full counsel of the Word of God.
Clear passages always preferred over obscure.
Greater weight to teaching that is repeated.
Later revelation takes place over earlier revelation.
Do not make a doctrine on what is inferred. Don’t dwell on church tradition.
Do not build doctrine in extra Biblical interpretation.
Hope to see you all around the forum!


Your friend in Christ,


Jim
<><

Jim
Jun 24th 2008, 03:19 PM
Faith is an action. Look at shama meaning hear and obey... faith is an action. Abrahams faith was active(his belief/trust by showing his willingness to obey by sacrificing Isaac), he heard and obeyed... that was counted to him as righteousness. The Scriptures say that Abraham obeyed/shama...

Gen 22:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gen&chapter=22&verse=18&version=kjv#18)And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed My voice.

It doesn't say that "because he believed", there was action involved. As we can see from James, even the demons believe in Him.

Dear Diffangle,

Did you notice who was James is writing to? You are reading someone else's mail and trying to apply it to your life my friend?

James 1:1
1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Are you one of the 12 Jewish tribes scattered abroad? If the answer is no, then are these verses written to you? They are written FOR you, but not to you! You must read and interpret scripture in context.


Your friend iin Christ,

Jim
<><

diffangle
Jun 24th 2008, 03:28 PM
Romans 9:4 (NLT)
They are the people of Israel, chosen to be God’s adopted children. God revealed his glory to them. He made covenants with them and gave them his law. He gave them the privilege of worshiping him and receiving his wonderful promises.

evrgreenjhawk, do find anything in the above scripture addressed to you? Also, I would respectfully recommend you not use the NTL version of the bible for any serious study.



There's neither Jew nor Greek when it comes to obedience to His Commandments.

Lev 24:22 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Lev&c=24&v=22&t=KJV#22)Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I [am] YHWH your God.

evrgreenjhawk
Jun 24th 2008, 03:29 PM
Believing in the Greek means the same as believing in English.


Thanks for your time

Peace

diffangle
Jun 24th 2008, 03:34 PM
Dear Diffangle,

Did you notice who was James is writing to?

Regardless of who it is written to... does it negate the content/fact that the demons believe in Him?




You are reading someone else's mail and trying to apply it to your life my friend?

Then couldn't we say that about all Paul's letters? Nothing in them applys to me b/c I am not a Corinthian, I am not an Ephesian, I am not a...

watchinginawe
Jun 24th 2008, 03:39 PM
Dear evrgreenjhawk and friends,
...
Please do not take this the wrong way, because I love you all in the Lord, but if you have not yet studied, or other posters have not yet studied soterology, biblical hermeneutics or even any study method of interpretation of bible scripture, it makes it virtually impossible to discuss doctrine. One ends up basing doctrine on human logic instead of God's inspired Word. :eek: :eek: :eek:

We'll allow you a mulligan on that one. ;)

God Bless!

diffangle
Jun 24th 2008, 03:59 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek:[/size]

We'll allow you a mulligan on that one. ;)

God Bless!
Right ? :hmm: :)

Mat 11:25 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=11&v=25&t=KJV#25)At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 06:18 PM
Greetings!

I am new to the board, so not 100% sure I am posting in the proper place. I certainly am not intending to start an argument or anything of that nature but found a board statement that doesn't exactly seem just right.

Because I am new here, I have been reading all the "Rules," and the definition of "Are you a Christian?" seemed like a rather strange definition of a Christian, biblically speaking.

The subject under Board Rules: Definition of "Are you a Christian?" in profile (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=61168):

"A Christian is a follower of Jesus of Nazareth, referred to as Christ or Messiah. Christians believe Jesus to be the only Son of God, who lived a sinless life.He is eternal, uncreated God, and has always been and will always be God, the creator of the universe. At the end of his earthly life He was crucified, on the third day He rose from the dead, and later ascended into heaven."

I would like to make a comment in regards to the statement "A Christian is a follower of Jesus of Nazareth."

Discipleship is separate from and is in contrast with the doctrine of salvation. One believes on Jesus Christ to be become a Christian, while one serves Jesus Christ to become a disciple. All believers are not disciples. All disciples are not believers.

Being a disciple has nothing to do with a person's salvation. The classic example is that of Judas Iscariot. Judas, although a disciple of Jesus, was never a believer; therefore, he was never saved.

John 6:64,71
64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. (emphasis added)

Salvation divides the world into two groups: those that believe and those that believe not.

John 3:18
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God "

A person is either saved or lost. There is no middle ground. The difference being only whether they believe or believe not on Jesus Christ. Human works have nothing to do with salvation! Salvation is by faith without works according to Ephesians 2:8-9 and many, many other passages.

Discipleship is also divided into two groups. There is no middle ground. You either serve or you serve not. Discipleship is clearly based upon works! See Malachi 3:18, "Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous, (the believer - see Romans 3:10, Romans 4:5), and the wicked, (the unbeliever - see Romans 3:10-19), between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not."

The question that needs be asked is where do you stand? Are you a believer? Then you are saved! If you are saved you ought to serve, not to be saved (which is impossible), but serve because you are already saved (John 5:24).

I hope and pray that every person who hears the gospel makes both decisions that God gave us to make. That you believe on Christ to be saved (Acts 16:31), and then choose to be a disciple. Remember a disciple is one who makes a conscious decision to follow Christ in pursuit of becoming a fisher of men.

Matthew 4:19
"And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."
(emphasis added)




Your friend in Christ,

Jim
<><


Reference: Dr Lindstrum


Hank Lindstrum eh? Now there is a great example of ultra-grace!

News flash... if you ain't a disciple and following Christ... you aren't a Christian and you will not see salvation. ;) Following Christ is very much required.

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 06:24 PM
Of course, evrgreenjhawk, but salvation comes by BELIEVING/FAITH and not by serving. Serving comes AFTER salvation. It is a "thank you" to God for having received the free gift of salvation.

Paul defines faith/believing for us very clearly in Romans 4:20–22: [Abraham] did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. And therefore ‘it was accounted to him for righteousness.’”

I believe this is the simplest and clearest definition of faith/believing that you will find in the Bible. Faith is a state in which we find ourselves fully convinced. Synonyms include certainty, assurance, confidence, certitude and so forth. As you read your way through the bible, continually remind your self that faith/believing is simply “being convinced that this is true!”

Believing in the Greek means the same as believing in English. If you "believe" a chair will hold your weight....you simply sit down. You do not have to "serve" the chair or "share" that the chair saved you from falling to "believe." Believe in Greek is "pisteuoô" and is defined as: "to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in."

.................................................. .....................

Someone mentioned Lord in a earlier post objection.


Two definitions of Lord . Savior


Definition #1; Lord: Godhead: terms referring to the Judeo-Christian God, a title.

Definition #2; Lord: A person (or deity) who has general authority over others. Rules over others who follow his teachings.


Definition: Savior: Concerning Christians; A deity who rescues mankind from harm, danger, loss or damnation. Savior in Christianity: Jesus, the son of God, the messiah.

Saying "Jesus is Lord" has two basic types of meaning.
1. Our relationship to Jesus (Our Lord, his disciples); the other is
2. Who Jesus really is.

One way to sum up the two meanings is:
1. Jesus is my master or Lord.
2. Jesus is Yahweh Lord God.


Jim
<><






That is not where "salvation" ends though. Believing is but of first importance. If one doesn't believe then it don't matter what happens after... they are toast anyway.

However... what gospel did Paul preach? I say that because I know that with you (a follower of Dr Hank) then this is very important because pretty much his teaching is all you guys accept as applicable to the church.

Acts 20:17 *¶And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church.
18 *And when they had come to him, he said to them, ¶"You yourselves know, from the first day that I set foot in Asia, how I was with you the whole time,
19 *serving the Lord with all humility and with tears and with trials which came upon me through the plots of the Jews;
20 *how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly and from house to house,
21 *solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

He does that elsewhere as well.
Acts 26:2 *¶"In regard to all the things of which I am accused by the Jews, I consider myself fortunate, King Agrippa, that I am about to make my defense before you today;
3 *especially because you are an expert in all customs and questions among the Jews; therefore I beg you to listen to me patiently.
4 *"So then, all Jews know my manner of life from my youth up, which from the beginning was spent among my own nation and at Jerusalem;
5 *since they have known about me for a long time previously, if they are willing to testify, that I lived as a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our religion.
6 *"And now I am standing trial for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers;
7 *the promise to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly serve God night and day. And for this hope, O King, I am being accused by Jews.
8 *"Why is it considered incredible among you people if God does raise the dead?
9 *"So then, I thought to myself that I had to do many things hostile to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
10 *"And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons, having received authority from the chief priests, but also when they were being put to death I cast my vote against them.
11 *"And as I punished them often in all the synagogues, I tried to force them to blaspheme; and being furiously enraged at them, I kept pursuing them even to foreign cities.
12 *"While thus engaged as I was journeying to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests,
13 *at midday, O King, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining all around me and those who were journeying with me.
14 *"And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, `Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.´
15 *"And I said, `Who art Thou, Lord?´ And the Lord said, `I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.
16 *`But arise, and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;
17 *delivering you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
18 *to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.´
19 *"Consequently, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision,
20 *but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.
21 *"For this reason some Jews seized me in the temple and tried to put me to death.


How about we deal with these two passages and then go from there?

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 06:27 PM
Dear evrgreenjhawk and friends,

I am going to have to make this my last post in this thread as I dont have the time to answer all the questions my original post triggered. I am sorry and apologize.

Evergreenjhawk, in bible study you MUST pay attention to what is written, to whom, and if it written to (Ask is this to a Christian in the Church Age?), or you will find yourself reading things God is speaking to a different groups of people, in a different dispensations (time peroid) as in the case above where you quote Saint Paul:

Romans 9:4 (NLT)
They are the people of Israel, chosen to be God’s adopted children. God revealed his glory to them. He made covenants with them and gave them his law. He gave them the privilege of worshiping him and receiving his wonderful promises.

evrgreenjhawk, do find anything in the above scripture addressed to you? Also, I would respectfully recommend you not use the NTL version of the bible for any serious study.

Please do not take this the wrong way, because I love you all in the Lord, but if you have not yet studied, or other posters have not yet studied soterology, biblical hermeneutics or even any study method of interpretation of bible scripture, it makes it virtually impossible to discuss doctrine. One ends up basing doctrine on human logic instead of God's inspired Word.

Isaiah 55:9
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Let me leave you with some basic bible study rules that should be of great help if you follow the rules in your study time.


Basic Bible Study Rules


Scripture will never contradict scriptures.
Some truths may seem paradoxical.
Never use an obscure passage to contradict the clear teaching of scripture.
Always seek the full counsel of the Word of God.
Clear passages always preferred over obscure.
Greater weight to teaching that is repeated.
Later revelation takes place over earlier revelation.
Do not make a doctrine on what is inferred. Don’t dwell on church tradition.
Do not build doctrine in extra Biblical interpretation.
Hope to see you all around the forum!


Your friend in Christ,


Jim
<><
I do not make this known to many there Jim but for the sake of making you tingle and stuff... I have a doctorate in theology. Would you like to dance?

Mograce2U
Jun 25th 2008, 05:48 PM
(Rom 8:15 KJV) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

(Rom 8:23 KJV) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

(Rom 9:4 KJV) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

(Gal 4:5 KJV) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

(Eph 1:5 KJV) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Not wanting to break any of those man-made rules of hermenuetics, I thought I would post the verses which speak of adoption. It would seem that while Paul is addressing the children of Israel in Rom 9:4 as being the ones to whom the adoption pertains, elsewhere we see that he has expanded that quite a bit.

mikebr
Jun 25th 2008, 06:03 PM
Christians-"little Christs" they acted like Christ. That's the reason they were called Christians. What if we were defined by Him and not by a bunch of people on a message board? I am a Christian because He is in me. I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ that live in me. The life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave His life for me.

mikebr
Jun 25th 2008, 06:04 PM
I do not make this known to many there Jim but for the sake of making you tingle and stuff... I have a doctorate in theology. Would you like to dance?

They taught you to dance in seminary?:rofl::kiss:

ProjectPeter
Jun 25th 2008, 06:10 PM
Ha! Nope and try as I might... I ain't real good at it. :lol: