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LaidDownHisLIfe
Jun 24th 2008, 03:16 AM
though i do not know all and understand all, i do have an opinion, and i believe God needs men and woman to stand by their convictions, not being luke warm- as thousands are killed in the name of our Lord and King

1 Tim 6:3,4
tells us of the supremacy of Christs teaching.
God tells us that anyone who teaches contrary to His teaching is conceited and understands nothing.
Hence i take the teaching of Christ and the new testament as above all.

to really to as basic as possible;
let's look at Christs reaching, as He said it in the English language.

Matt 5:39
"Do not resist an evil person."

Matt 5:44
"Love your enemies."

In Romans, God says before telling us to submit to the governing authorities.

Rom12:14
"Bless those who persecute..."

Rom12:17
"Never pay back evil for evil."

Rom12:20
"If your enemy is hungry , feed him, and if he is thirsty give him a drink."

NO WHERE EVER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ARE WE TOLD TO FIGHT A PHYSICAL WAR.

matthew94
Jun 24th 2008, 03:38 AM
You are quite correct. Jesus taught that His Kingdom shall not be spread by military force. All the verses you quoted are referring to our personal response to persecution. At an individual level, members of the Kingdom of God are not to take vengence into their own hands.

But these verses aren't about what nations do. In fact, Jesus assumed that nations would fight. He said that if His kingdom were of this world, His people would physically fight for Him. The kingdoms of this world will fight. And if a Christian is to submit to the governing authorities, that may include fighting in that governments wars. That's b/w each Christian and the Lord.

I found one of your lines particularly interesting...


as thousands are killed in the name of our Lord and King

Assuming your are referring to America's current war, where did you hear that the deaths involved are in the name of Jesus?

LaidDownHisLIfe
Jun 24th 2008, 04:15 AM
When a preacher says, lets pray for our young people in Iraq, isn't the implication of his prayer that he is praying that they will not die in the war but at the same time, knowing that they are there to kill if need be, isn't the prayer in effect saying it is better for them to kill and survive than to be killed? And are not a lot of these people, both the prayers and the warriors professing to love Jesus?

Shouldn't the prayer rather be to enlighten the poor souls that have been deluded into believing that as Christians they can kill their fellow humans also made in His image?
But some of the enemy combatants, such as in the 2nd World War were also Christians!! Both sides fighting while as both sides having Christians killing each other.

Submitting ourselves to every ordinance of man is supposed to be for the Lord's sake.
Is obedience to fight a carnal war really done for the Lord's sake, while as the weapons of our warfare are not carnal?
Taking Human life is NEVER for the Lord's sake by the NT which is the greater and better covenant.

Athanasius
Jun 24th 2008, 04:27 AM
Taking Human life is NEVER for the Lord's sake by the NT which is the greater and better covenant.

Speaking only from the New Testament is just as bad as the atheist apologist demeaning Christianity only from the Old Testament. I'm sorry, but all scripture is inspired--all scripture must be considered. I don't like killing, I don't advocate it, but guess what? This is a fallen existence. War is necessary at times.

If Jesus were against war, He would have said so. He had plenty of opportunity to.

LaidDownHisLIfe
Jun 24th 2008, 04:34 AM
There is a clear distinction between the Old and New.
Using the OT law may be done in a manner that is not lawful or right.
As Paul said, the law is good IF a man use it lawfully.
Using the OT to override the NT is similar to the Jews in Pauls day declaring that new converts to Christianity need to get circumcised as per the OT requirement for circumcision.
Whoever is justified by the Law (OT) is fallen from Grace according to the apostle.

th1bill
Jun 24th 2008, 04:48 AM
though i do not know all and understand all, i do have an opinion
Wow! All I can do is to ask, "Is the God of the Old Testament not the God of the New Testament?"

Athanasius
Jun 24th 2008, 04:49 AM
There is a clear distinction between the Old and New.
Using the OT law may be done in a manner that is not lawful or right.
As Paul said, the law is good IF a man use it lawfully.
Using the OT to override the NT is similar to the Jews in Pauls day declaring that new converts to Christianity need to get circumcised as per the OT requirement for circumcision.
Whoever is justified by the Law (OT) is fallen from Grace according to the apostle.

Have I suggested we "override" the New Testament with the Old Testament (this is a horrible naming convention, by the way)? Absolutely not. But let's not also forget at the same time that the "New" Testament, a lot of the time, is illuminated by the "Old" Testament.

But if you want to jump off a cliff, accusing me of obscenities I've yet to utter. By all means, go ahead. I have no problem standing here quietly, watching. All I've suggested, hitherto, is that one cannot take "New" Testament teaching in seclusion of the rest of scripture. Especially this big chunk of the Bible people don't like to study, the... "Old" Testament. And I really do hate that naming convention, there's nothing "Old" about it.

matthew94
Jun 24th 2008, 05:37 AM
When a preacher says, lets pray for our young people in Iraq, isn't the implication of his prayer that he is praying that they will not die in the war but at the same time, knowing that they are there to kill if need be, isn't the prayer in effect saying it is better for them to kill and survive than to be killed? And are not a lot of these people, both the prayers and the warriors professing to love Jesus?

You're way off here. As a preacher I've never prayed for the soldiers with that mindset. And as a Christian I've never heard anyone in our congregation pray with that mentality. We pray for the chaplains. We pray for peace. We pray for safety.


Submitting ourselves to every ordinance of man is supposed to be for the Lord's sake.
Is obedience to fight a carnal war really done for the Lord's sake, while as the weapons of our warfare are not carnal?You seem to be confused. A Christian soldier can know the difference b/w spiritual warfare (his warfare as a member of the kingdom of God) and national warfare (his warfare as a citizen on earth). He can recognize his primary citizenship while participating in his secondary citizenship.


Taking Human life is NEVER for the Lord's sake by the NT which is the greater and better covenant.The New Covenant began with the taking of a human life. Certainly the Kingdom of God is not to be spread by force, but you are neglecting the fact that the Scriptures you are using are talking about the Kingdom of God, not the kingdoms of this world. Each Christian has to work it out in their conscience whether they can be part of a secular army. Personally, I couldn't do it if the role i was placed in entailed killing others.

daughter
Jun 24th 2008, 09:11 AM
Laiddownhislife... just to let you know, when our church prays for Iraq, they pray for the soldiers, AND the civillians. When I pray for people, I'm not praying for their well being so they can go out and kill people. I'm praying for God to so move in their lives that they will come to know the King, and be saved.

You seem to think Christians are praying to facilitate killing. Why assume such ugly things of another Christian's prayers? Seems the accuser of the brethren has been whispering in many people's ears. Don't listen to him.

Naphal
Jun 24th 2008, 09:56 AM
NO WHERE EVER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ARE WE TOLD TO FIGHT A PHYSICAL WAR.

Luke 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.



Why did Christ want his disciples to sell things to buy swords?

EarlyCall
Jun 24th 2008, 10:46 AM
There is a clear distinction between the Old and New.
Using the OT law may be done in a manner that is not lawful or right.
As Paul said, the law is good IF a man use it lawfully.
Using the OT to override the NT is similar to the Jews in Pauls day declaring that new converts to Christianity need to get circumcised as per the OT requirement for circumcision.
Whoever is justified by the Law (OT) is fallen from Grace according to the apostle.

I wasn't aware the OT was nothing more than laws. Did you happen to notice anything at all in the OT that wasn't about the laws?

What do you make of the government wielding the sword? At the time Paul spoke these words the Roman government was in charge and they carried and used the sword. What did they use it for?

Can you tell me why Jesus didn't tell the Centurion to leave the military but instead spoke so highly of his faith? Do you think Jesus missed a perfect opportunity to guide this man out of sin into righteous living?

Another such occasion involved Peter. God spoke to Peter but never said anything about having Peter tell the man to get out of the military. Just another missed opportunity?

Back tot the OT for a moment. When God commanded the Jews to fight, including David and from the very beginning, what OT law was God using to make the command? Please be specific. Also, where in the NT did God speak specifically to the issue of war - as in where did He specifically mention war? Isn't war important enough to be mentioned specifically and directly?

It's fine I think for you to personally be against war, but I find real problems and gaps in your reasoning. That being so, I don't think you ought to try and push this as gospel and condemn others. Let it be your own conviction. Still, no problem discussing it to be sure. But I would appreciate an honest effort on your part to answer my questions. Thank you. :)

daughter
Jun 24th 2008, 10:58 AM
Luke 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.



Why did Christ want his disciples to sell things to buy swords?

Of course, I could be wrong... but fairly obviously it wasn't to use them as weapons, because you never hear of them using swords... well, apart from once, in the Garden, when Jesus rebukes them, and heals the injured man.

I see Jesus' words here as a metaphor. We should give up everything we have... absolutely everything, and purchase a sword... in other words, we should arm ourselves with that weapon sharper than a two edged sword... that is the Word of truth.

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 12:15 PM
though i do not know all and understand all, i do have an opinion, and i believe God needs men and woman to stand by their convictions, not being luke warm- as thousands are killed in the name of our Lord and King

1 Tim 6:3,4
tells us of the supremacy of Christs teaching.
God tells us that anyone who teaches contrary to His teaching is conceited and understands nothing.
Hence i take the teaching of Christ and the new testament as above all.

to really to as basic as possible;
let's look at Christs reaching, as He said it in the English language.

Matt 5:39
"Do not resist an evil person."

Matt 5:44
"Love your enemies."

In Romans, God says before telling us to submit to the governing authorities.

Rom12:14
"Bless those who persecute..."

Rom12:17
"Never pay back evil for evil."

Rom12:20
"If your enemy is hungry , feed him, and if he is thirsty give him a drink."

NO WHERE EVER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ARE WE TOLD TO FIGHT A PHYSICAL WAR.

I agree.

peaceandlove, janet

LaidDownHisLIfe
Jun 24th 2008, 03:43 PM
Jesus plainly said
Matt 5:39
"Do not resist an evil person."

Matt 5:44
"Love your enemies."

now if you decide to go about war in the flesh,or support war in the flesh, do so, but DO NOT expect to be blessed by God in this.

Jesus clearly show there is a difference in the old and the new covenant.
you can live under whatever covenant you want, but DO NOT say you are following Jesus while supporting war in the flesh.

loving Jesus is obeying His commandments.
if you support war in the flesh, you do not love Jesus.
it s plain and straight forward.

in luke 22, please read til the end.the disciples answered,"here are two swords."jesus answered, that s enough.he did not tell them all to buy swords.perhaps it was a test of their faith, but he did not tell them after this passage, "now go to war."

leave Jesus' words out of your bible if you like.i will not!the command stands firm[along with all the others];"love your enemies."

blessings in obedience to Him!

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 04:03 PM
Jesus plainly said
Matt 5:39
"Do not resist an evil person."

Matt 5:44
"Love your enemies."

now if you decide to go about war in the flesh,or support war in the flesh, do so, but DO NOT expect to be blessed by God in this.

Jesus clearly show there is a difference in the old and the new covenant.
you can live under whatever covenant you want, but DO NOT say you are following Jesus while supporting war in the flesh.

loving Jesus is obeying His commandments.
if you support war in the flesh, you do not love Jesus.
it s plain and straight forward.

in luke 22, please read til the end.the disciples answered,"here are two swords."jesus answered, that s enough.he did not tell them all to buy swords.perhaps it was a test of their faith, but he did not tell them after this passage, "now go to war."

leave Jesus' words out of your bible if you like.i will not!the command stands firm[along with all the others];"love your enemies."

blessings in obedience to Him!

As has already been pointed out, those scriptures were written to individuals.

Let me ask you a question, should policemen turn the other cheek? Should police not resist evil? Is it wrong for government to resist the criminal element according to the verses you quote? Is that proper interpretation of scripture?

Matt 5:38-39

38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 "But I say to you, do not resist him who is evil; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.
NASB

EarlyCall
Jun 24th 2008, 04:13 PM
Jesus plainly said
Matt 5:39
"Do not resist an evil person."

Matt 5:44
"Love your enemies."

now if you decide to go about war in the flesh,or support war in the flesh, do so, but DO NOT expect to be blessed by God in this.

Jesus clearly show there is a difference in the old and the new covenant.
you can live under whatever covenant you want, but DO NOT say you are following Jesus while supporting war in the flesh.

loving Jesus is obeying His commandments.
if you support war in the flesh, you do not love Jesus.
it s plain and straight forward.

in luke 22, please read til the end.the disciples answered,"here are two swords."jesus answered, that s enough.he did not tell them all to buy swords.perhaps it was a test of their faith, but he did not tell them after this passage, "now go to war."

leave Jesus' words out of your bible if you like.i will not!the command stands firm[along with all the others];"love your enemies."

blessings in obedience to Him!

You just repeated yourself and this time it sounded more like ranting. I asked specific quesitons and made some points for you to consider. Your response? Repeating yourself, ignoring my questions altogether and generally disregarding my points.

I dunno, but it seems rude to me somehow in a discussion. Sorry, but I can't take you seriously at this point.

I think it's more a case of you simply wanting to spout off against the war perhaps rather than have a discussion. Perhaps not, but it certainly looks that way.

LaidDownHisLIfe
Jun 24th 2008, 04:35 PM
a policeman needs to decide what to do in his own situation.
i would NEVER be a policeman if it involves forcing someone to do something.he probably needs to find another job?not sure.

perhaps a policeman/woman can answer this question?

as a christian, we all need to decide for ourselves how to act, and i trust a christian policeman will love his enemies too, but seen i am not , and will never be one, i can t answer for him, but on the issue of war, as christians, let's say;"jesus says love!"

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 04:48 PM
a policeman needs to decide what to do in his own situation.
i would NEVER be a policeman if it involves forcing someone to do something.he probably needs to find another job?not sure.

perhaps a policeman/woman can answer this question?

as a christian, we all need to decide for ourselves how to act, and i trust a christian policeman will love his enemies too, but seen i am not , and will never be one, i can t answer for him, but on the issue of war, as christians, let's say;"jesus says love!"

So in your view, is a cop that uses force going against the word of God?

theleast
Jun 24th 2008, 04:59 PM
Do you not know that there are those who wage war with the whore and the Lamb to fulfill God's will?

12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

And who might these kings be?

threebigrocks
Jun 24th 2008, 05:00 PM
God is peace love, but He is also wrath as is displayed throughout the Old Testiment. He is the same God that sent His Son for us.

Ecclesasties 3


8A time to love and a time to hate;
A time for war and a time for peace.


There is a time for all things as appointed by God.

Matthew 8



8But the centurion said, "Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
9"For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it." 10Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.



Jesus didn't hold back healing, reasoning that the soldier was at times required to kill. The soldier was acting under the authority put in place by God Himself.

If God is for peace and love, we could even stretch it to say why eternal punnishment? God is just, and will have mercy upon who He decides to have mercy upon.

LaidDownHisLIfe
Jun 24th 2008, 05:01 PM
"I wasn't aware the OT was nothing more than laws. Did you happen to notice anything at all in the OT that wasn't about the laws? "
Don t know what u r on about?

"What do you make of the government wielding the sword? At the time Paul spoke these words the Roman government was in charge and they carried and used the sword. What did they use it for?"
Please note: in Rom 13, where it speaks of the sword, before 13, comes 12.
There God tells us how to respond to a war situation.
The issue we are discussing here is war. if u have comments saying we should fight a war, then let me know, but I’m no expert in the sword dept.
remember too, what Jesus commands stands firm, no matter what any government says!


"Can you tell me why Jesus didn't tell the Centurion to leave the military but instead spoke so highly of his faith? Do you think Jesus missed a perfect opportunity to guide this man out of sin into righteous living? "
I do not know this centurion, or how he lived, and both of us can only presume how he lived.
Jesus was making an example of his faith, and let us not try and put words in here that do not exist!
Perhaps after pentecost, the centurion did join the church, and lived a holy life, we do not know.
There were others who wanted to follow Jesus immediately, that Jesus disallowed.
I guess you need to ask Him yourself

"Another such occasion involved Peter. God spoke to Peter but never said anything about having Peter tell the man to get out of the military. Just another missed opportunity?"
Where?

"Back to the OT for a moment. When God commanded the Jews to fight, including David and from the very beginning, what OT law was God using to make the command? Please be specific".
Now we are under the new covenant .God changed"an eye for an eye".see matt5, luke6.
"Also, where in the NT did God speak specifically to the issue of war - as in where did He specifically mention war? Isn't war important enough to be mentioned specifically and directly?"

Try as much as you like, but you cannot get away from Jesus command. Love your enemy is directly
a reference to war. If you find that by killing your enemy , you are loving him/her, you probably will need to see the King.

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 05:04 PM
Tell me this. If my killing a person shows love to another because the person that I kill is killing that other person.... am I not acting in love?

theleast
Jun 24th 2008, 05:05 PM
The elect are not to wage war with metal weapons but with the Spirit of God. We are to walk as Christ did turning the other cheek and forgiving our enemies.

He who lives by the sword dies by the sword.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 05:06 PM
Try as much as you like, but you cannot get away from Jesus command. Love your enemy is directly
a reference to war. If you find that by killing your enemy , you are loving him/her, you probably will need to see the King.


Again, let's examine this closely. Are you telling me that God is against policemen using force to stop evil? For he said "do not resist evil".

I am not asking if you personally would be a cop. I am asking if it is against God's word for cops to use violence to stop evil.

theleast
Jun 24th 2008, 05:07 PM
Tell me this. If my killing a person shows love to another because the person that I kill is killing that other person.... am I not acting in love?

Must you kill them? Can you not restrain them?

When Judas delivered Christ unto the centurions, all his disciples knew it was to his death. One of this disciples smote the ear off of one of the centurions. What did Christ do? He rebuked that disciple and healed the centurion.

We are to do the same.

What is a death of the flesh? Nothing if it leads to life in the Spirit.

LaidDownHisLIfe
Jun 24th 2008, 05:08 PM
please tell me if you know something, instead of asking. i may not have the right answer.
i know we are called to spiritual war, and yes, in this i'm active.
in the end, when Jesus comes, well, i don t care what the war looks like, i will be on the winning side, but here on earth, we need only love

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 05:12 PM
please tell me if you know something, instead of asking. i may not have the right answer.
i know we are called to spiritual war, and yes, in this i'm active.
in the end, when Jesus comes, well, i don t care what the war looks like, i will be on the winning side, but here on earth, we need only love

Why do you dodge my question about cops?

Is God against cops using force to resist evil?

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 05:14 PM
Must you kill them? Can you not restrain them?

When Judas delivered Christ unto the centurions, all his disciples knew it was to his death. One of this disciples smote the ear off of one of the centurions. What did Christ do? He rebuked that disciple and healed the centurion.

We are to do the same.

What is a death of the flesh? Nothing if it leads to life in the Spirit.Not always. I remember the first person that I had to shoot and he did die. He had a shotgun and was coming out of the bank. He shot at two people hitting one and was fixing to shoot again in his getaway. I shot him before he could. So someone share... how was that wrong or sin on my part? Should I have just let him go on shooting folks and figure hey... he'll be judged for that but I can't shoot him because that wouldn't be loving? I dare say that I showed love to several of my neighbors in shooting him before he could have shot them. Am I wrong in that?

LaidDownHisLIfe
Jun 24th 2008, 05:16 PM
"Tell me this. If my killing a person shows love to another because the person that I kill is killing that other person.... am I not acting in love?"

you may stand in the way of the knife/bullet/bat etc, but you need to love your enemy, and loving does not mean killing.

how can u say, i love you, then pull out a weapon and proceed to kill them?or kill them with you bare hands?
this is definatly not love!

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 05:24 PM
"Tell me this. If my killing a person shows love to another because the person that I kill is killing that other person.... am I not acting in love?"

you may stand in the way of the knife/bullet/bat etc, but you need to love your enemy, and loving does not mean killing.

how can u say, i love you, then pull out a weapon and proceed to kill them?or kill them with you bare hands?
this is definatly not love!
What if I can't get to the bullet, knife, or bat before it strikes? Yet I have a gun and it can get there in time?

LaidDownHisLIfe
Jun 24th 2008, 05:24 PM
yes, i would say using force is wrong.
but hyperthethical thinking is dangerous.
please if u r thinking bout becoming a cop, please don t!
IF U R THINKING about becoming a preacher, please do!!
there are a few ways of resisting evil.
the best way is by preaching the gospel.
the worst way is by force.
"let him who does evil, continue to do evil."

itsokimadocter
Jun 24th 2008, 05:27 PM
doesnt war seem justifiable to you when the innocent are being murdered? and you keep referring to killing and love. loving your enemy does not mean you cant kill them if called to do so. if i were to go to war, i would love my enemy, but also i would obey my governing authority which God has called us to obey. there is a big difference between killing and murder. murder requires hate, killing does not. i agree, war should be avoided at all costs, but it is neccessary to protect the innocent in some cases. was the US justified in entering WWII to stop the nazis from killing millions of jews, or should we all have stayed home and just prayed for them? you have to look at God's heart in the matter...should we assist the innocent when they are being persecuted and use force if neccessary?

theleast
Jun 24th 2008, 05:28 PM
please tell me if you know something, instead of asking. i may not have the right answer.
i know we are called to spiritual war, and yes, in this i'm active.
in the end, when Jesus comes, well, i don t care what the war looks like, i will be on the winning side, but here on earth, we need only love

I agree with you, that our only duty as Christians is to love.

I speak in questions, to lead people to the right scriptures and a line of thinking, and questions to ask God in prayer.

I don't, for lack of a better term, cast my pearls before swine. I am not calling anybody in here swine, but there are guests even who may read these words and the knowledge that I have is not for all. However if you ask me directly in PM something that is important to you, then I will answer it in that manner. The answers that I have are not always answers for the general public, but some are only for the elect.

theleast
Jun 24th 2008, 05:31 PM
Not always. I remember the first person that I had to shoot and he did die. He had a shotgun and was coming out of the bank. He shot at two people hitting one and was fixing to shoot again in his getaway. I shot him before he could. So someone share... how was that wrong or sin on my part? Should I have just let him go on shooting folks and figure hey... he'll be judged for that but I can't shoot him because that wouldn't be loving? I dare say that I showed love to several of my neighbors in shooting him before he could have shot them. Am I wrong in that?

Are you a policeman?

That is a hard job, and not one that I would accept knowing my duties to God, and how they would effect my ability to do my job. I am not going to intercede between you and God, or anybody else. You have the Spirit to do that for you.

All I will say is I couldn't do that job, because I am a servent of God with responsibility to do only the will of God as he has given to me.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 05:31 PM
yes, i would say using force is wrong.
but hyperthethical thinking is dangerous.
please if u r thinking bout becoming a cop, please don t!
IF U R THINKING about becoming a preacher, please do!!
there are a few ways of resisting evil.
the best way is by preaching the gospel.
the worst way is by force.
"let him who does evil, continue to do evil."

OK. Now lets look at some further scriptures.

Rom 13:1-4

13 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.
NASB

The very purpose of authority and government is to bring the wrath of God upon the evil doer. God has ordained government partly for this purpose. It started after the flood and continues to this day.

It all goes back to authority. Government has the authority from God to use force to control evil. Government gives that authority to cops. Cops, acting as agents of the government can use force and be within the will of God.

So can soldiers.

LaidDownHisLIfe
Jun 24th 2008, 05:37 PM
" He shot at two people hitting one and was fixing to shoot again in his getaway. I shot him before he could. So someone share... how was that wrong or sin on my part? Should I have just let him go on shooting folks and figure hey... he'll be judged for that but I can't shoot him because that wouldn't be loving? I dare say that I showed love to several of my neighbors in shooting him before he could have shot them. Am I wrong in that?"
firstly, in the second world war, Hitler was allowed by God to kill many people, and many tried to kill Hitler, but failed.
God decided when he should die, not humans.
if any decide when others should die, then they need to be accountable for this, as i am sure they already are.it s not a pleasant conscience to live with, even those who killed others in war speak of this.

peter, you can only assume he would have shot more people, because it did not happen, you do not know 4 sure.

i personaly believe God can forgive all of us as we confess our sin to Him, as killing someone has the same penalty as stealing one cent

LaidDownHisLIfe
Jun 24th 2008, 05:45 PM
you are free to do as you please.
please read the end of Romans 12, before we are told to submitt to governing authorities.read carefully.if thereafter you feel free to go and kill, then do so, but please remember;there is a price to pay

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 05:46 PM
Are you a policeman?

That is a hard job, and not one that I would accept knowing my duties to God, and how they would effect my ability to do my job. I am not going to intercede between you and God, or anybody else. You have the Spirit to do that for you.

All I will say is I couldn't do that job, because I am a servent of God with responsibility to do only the will of God as he has given to me.Not any longer but yes, I was as well as a soldier in the military for several tours. This predated the first gulf war so I wasn't involved in that however I was involved in other conflicts and with that came shooting folks that had taken over an island and thus they wanted our help to be free from their oppressor's. We freed them. And yes... with that oppression came folks from another country killing and maiming other people.... so were we sinful for stopping that sort of torture and violence?

ProDeo
Jun 24th 2008, 05:47 PM
how can u say, i love you, then pull out a weapon and proceed to kill them?or kill them with you bare hands?
this is definatly not love!

Some bad guy kidnapped you, your wife and children and is threatening to kill you all. On an unguarded moment you are able to overpower him by force. Does it mean that you hate (have hated) the kidnapper?

Ed

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 05:48 PM
yes, i would say using force is wrong.
but hyperthethical thinking is dangerous.
please if u r thinking bout becoming a cop, please don t!
IF U R THINKING about becoming a preacher, please do!!
there are a few ways of resisting evil.
the best way is by preaching the gospel.
the worst way is by force.
"let him who does evil, continue to do evil."I am a preacher and was a cop as well as a soldier. And I didn't give you a hypothetical so it isn't "dangerous." So please... answer the question that I asked because you are really avoiding this. God gave us Scripture yes. God also gave us common sense (prudence) and God did so for us to actually use it when studying His Word. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 05:52 PM
" He shot at two people hitting one and was fixing to shoot again in his getaway. I shot him before he could. So someone share... how was that wrong or sin on my part? Should I have just let him go on shooting folks and figure hey... he'll be judged for that but I can't shoot him because that wouldn't be loving? I dare say that I showed love to several of my neighbors in shooting him before he could have shot them. Am I wrong in that?"
firstly, in the second world war, Hitler was allowed by God to kill many people, and many tried to kill Hitler, but failed.
God decided when he should die, not humans.
if any decide when others should die, then they need to be accountable for this, as i am sure they already are.it s not a pleasant conscience to live with, even those who killed others in war speak of this.

peter, you can only assume he would have shot more people, because it did not happen, you do not know 4 sure.

i personaly believe God can forgive all of us as we confess our sin to Him, as killing someone has the same penalty as stealing one cent
There is no sin in killing. See... you go on about all this without even thinking. Fact. God killed and kills folk. If killing is a sin then God is a sinner. Fact: Jesus will kill a boat load when He returns. If killing is a sin then Jesus no longer remains perfect and will on that day enter into sin.

FACT: Killing is not a sin. Murder is a sin. Killing with evil motive and intent and or malice... that is a sin. Killing... in and of itself is no sin at all. If it was then God told Noah, Moses, David, Sampson, etc. to sin. If that is the case then the Bible just became a lie because God tempts no man to sin.

Ponder it... maybe it will make some sense.

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 05:55 PM
And I forgot to add.... I am not assuming a thing. Jacked a round in the chamber again... pointed gun... finger on trigger. Nothing to assume... he had already shot at two others and still had rounds in the shotgun. He was going to shoot again although the bullet from my 45 was a wee bit faster than his finger.

itsokimadocter
Jun 24th 2008, 05:55 PM
i figured the definition of murder would help this discussion.

1.
Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

LaidDownHisLIfe
Jun 24th 2008, 05:56 PM
i would say as a follower of christ, now, it will be foolish to pick up a weapon of any sort in order to hurt/maim, or kill anyone.
i too am ex military.
i have repented.
i would say, once the truth has come to me,being formely decieved- that i thought i could do better than God with my weapon, than He can do by His mighty hand, i repent, and say;"lord, come do by Your mighty hand.Let me stand out of Your way.You are Lord of all situations.It is You Who hold life and death, not me.Come and have your way, oh Lord."

LaidDownHisLIfe
Jun 24th 2008, 06:01 PM
have u been in this situation. i haven t.
did u love the kidnapper?
talking hypotheticaly, is close to pointless[excuse the pun][i mean the gun]

itsokimadocter
Jun 24th 2008, 06:08 PM
There is no sin in killing. See... you go on about all this without even thinking. Fact. God killed and kills folk. If killing is a sin then God is a sinner. Fact: Jesus will kill a boat load when He returns. If killing is a sin then Jesus no longer remains perfect and will on that day enter into sin.

FACT: Killing is not a sin. Murder is a sin. Killing with evil motive and intent and or malice... that is a sin. Killing... in and of itself is no sin at all. If it was then God told Noah, Moses, David, Sampson, etc. to sin. If that is the case then the Bible just became a lie because God tempts no man to sin.

Ponder it... maybe it will make some sense.

Laydownhislife, i would really like to hear your input regarding ProjectPeter's post noted above.

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 06:15 PM
i would say as a follower of christ, now, it will be foolish to pick up a weapon of any sort in order to hurt/maim, or kill anyone.
i too am ex military.
i have repented.
i would say, once the truth has come to me,being formely decieved- that i thought i could do better than God with my weapon, than He can do by His mighty hand, i repent, and say;"lord, come do by Your mighty hand.Let me stand out of Your way.You are Lord of all situations.It is You Who hold life and death, not me.Come and have your way, oh Lord."
And again... show me where killing is a sin and God is Himself a sinner because God sure enough killed folk.

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 06:17 PM
Laydownhislife, i would really like to hear your input regarding ProjectPeter's post noted above.
There is no response because like with many man thought doctrine... they trap themselves with their own faulty logic. It happens.

threebigrocks
Jun 24th 2008, 06:29 PM
The elect are not to wage war with metal weapons but with the Spirit of God. We are to walk as Christ did turning the other cheek and forgiving our enemies.

He who lives by the sword dies by the sword.

And he who lives by the Spirit won't.

You have a loaded gun. People you love are without a doubt going to be killed. Will you sit and watch or remove what is obvious evil from taking the lives of those who love?

LayDownHisLife, you say be a preacher, not a soldier. Are you now a preacher with a congregation or a God ordained ministry to keep those who would murder from doing so? Really, if we've got those who run around and murder still we could say that the preachers are falling short, thus by association they too are taking lives by not converting every gang banger and evil minded person on this planet.

YES, before you fry me on it - it IS a rediculous notion. Evil will do what it will do. But when it comes down to it - no way would any person allow evil to take the life of those who they love thinking that was loving. I'd lay down my life for not only my brother but for the innocent.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 06:33 PM
you are free to do as you please.
please read the end of Romans 12, before we are told to submitt to governing authorities.read carefully.if thereafter you feel free to go and kill, then do so, but please remember;there is a price to pay

So you have no comment on how God uses government to kill? He gave them the authority to do so back after the flood. Just in case folks say "Hey, that's not for the believer" keep in mind that only believers existed after the flood and Romans 13 was written to believers. So we have it covered in both the NT and the OT.

Does God give government the right to execute his wrath according to Romans 13? You bet he does.

Authority has a responsibility to protect those under it's authority. That's the point that Project Peter is making. For the authority to ignore that directive, would be a sin against both those under it's care and God himself.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 06:35 PM
There is no response because like with many man thought doctrine... they trap themselves with their own faulty logic. It happens.

Exactly. Take the scripture in Matthew 5 and ignore the one in Romans 13. There is no answer because it's a tenable position. What kind of man would stand by and let an evil man rape the daughter God gave him to protect? Authority is charged with resisting evil and the individual is charged with turning the other cheek.

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 06:43 PM
Exactly. Take the scripture in Matthew 5 and ignore the one in Romans 13. There is no answer because it's a tenable position. What kind of man would stand by and let an evil man rape the daughter God gave him to protect? Authority is charged with resisting evil and the individual is charged with turning the other cheek.
Well simple fact that cannot be escaped if what this doctrine says is true. God Himself is a sinner because God sure enough killed folk. Hem, haw, and tap dance ... one cannot escape that very fact.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 06:44 PM
Well simple fact that cannot be escaped if what this doctrine says is true. God Himself is a sinner because God sure enough killed folk. Hem, haw, and tap dance ... one cannot escape that very fact.

Yep. And Jesus himself will lead a great army in Revelation just as he led one in Joshua.

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 06:49 PM
Yep. And Jesus himself will lead a great army in Revelation just as he led one in Joshua.
Yes.... that He will!

LaidDownHisLIfe
Jun 24th 2008, 07:02 PM
Well simple fact that cannot be escaped if what this doctrine says is true. God Himself is a sinner because God sure enough killed folk. Hem, haw, and tap dance ... one cannot escape that very fact.

says God himself is a sinner.shame on you,
tap dancer or no tap dancer, God is not a sinner!
God can do as He pleases,HE HOLDS life and death.

if the lodgic of loving your enemies is faulty in lodgic, please talk to the Author about it.it did not come from me.

and again i say; read Rom 13 in context with Rom 12.

if you are having a problem with this truth, you are not having a problem with me, but the One Who said it!
i'm merely quoting Him.

NO WHERE EVER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ARE WE TOLD TO FIGHT A PHYSICAL WAR.
now if u can show me where the N.T. teaches where we should fight war,[physicaly], then show me, and we can talk some more, but if not, then perhaps try get answers elsewhere,
but
God's word stands firm forever.
"love your enemies."
if u can do what you do in love, then who am i to tell you anymore?

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 07:05 PM
says God himself is a sinner.shame on you,
tap dancer or no tap dancer, God is not a sinner!
God can do as He pleases,HE HOLDS life and death.

if the lodgic of loving your enemies is faulty in lodgic, please talk to the Author about it.it did not come from me.

and again i say; read Rom 13 in context with Rom 12.

if you are having a problem with this truth, you are not having a problem with me, but the One Who said it!
i'm merely quoting Him.

NO WHERE EVER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ARE WE TOLD TO FIGHT A PHYSICAL WAR.
now if u can show me where the N.T. teaches where we should fight war,[physicaly], then show me, and we can talk some more, but if not, then perhaps try get answers elsewhere,
but
God's word stands firm forever.
"love your enemies."
if u can do what you do in love, then who am i to tell you anymore?
First you answer me. If killing is a sin then how is God Himself not a sinner? If killing is a sin then how can Jesus Christ escape such a sin because He will destroy many? You are tap dancing if you cannot answer that very question. God doesn't sin and yet God kills. So is there "killing" which isn't a sin?

As to who are you to tell me... not much in all honesty. Your doctrine is wrong.

LaidDownHisLIfe
Jun 24th 2008, 07:25 PM
First you answer me. If killing is a sin then how is God Himself not a sinner? If killing is a sin then how can Jesus Christ escape such a sin because He will destroy many? You are tap dancing if you cannot answer that very question. God doesn't sin and yet God kills. So is there "killing" which isn't a sin?

As to who are you to tell me... not much in all honesty. Your doctrine is wrong.

just because God kills, does not give us the right to kill.

u can tap dance all u like, niether God or i are impressed at this dancing.

the only thing which God rejoices in in His children living in obedience, and loving as He commanded.

if u feel killing is more righteous than preaching the gospel, u may continue.
if u feel your bullet is faster than God's hand, then carry on,
but the truth stands:
NO WHERE EVER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ARE WE TOLD TO FIGHT A PHYSICAL WAR.
try sticking to the subject!

Athanasius
Jun 24th 2008, 07:35 PM
NO WHERE EVER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ARE WE TOLD TO FIGHT A PHYSICAL WAR.
try sticking to the subject!

This isn't the issue.
Those in this thread have written some very good replies to your stance. Unfortunately you aren't open to other possibilities.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 07:42 PM
just because God kills, does not give us the right to kill.

u can tap dance all u like, niether God or i are impressed at this dancing.

the only thing which God rejoices in in His children living in obedience, and loving as He commanded.

if u feel killing is more righteous than preaching the gospel, u may continue.
if u feel your bullet is faster than God's hand, then carry on,
but the truth stands:
NO WHERE EVER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ARE WE TOLD TO FIGHT A PHYSICAL WAR.
try sticking to the subject!

Romans 13 supports war. Government is to protect the innocent and bear the sword of the wrath of God. That's new testament.

When the NT occurred, he did not change his character.

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 07:47 PM
First you answer me. If killing is a sin then how is God Himself not a sinner? If killing is a sin then how can Jesus Christ escape such a sin because He will destroy many? You are tap dancing if you cannot answer that very question. God doesn't sin and yet God kills. So is there "killing" which isn't a sin?

As to who are you to tell me... not much in all honesty. Your doctrine is wrong.


God uses the governments of THIS world to fulfill His wrath, and His will for evil doers.

How He fulfills this is written down in His holy word.

He has handed the governments of this world over to SATAN, and human governments with satan as their "god" fulfill the law of reaping and sowing...those whom pick up the sword will die by the sword. God is not mocked, whatsover we sow, we will reap...and, He has said, not only is killing wrong, but hating is wrong.

We are not called to be the workers in HUMAN governments, that YES, God has set in place and uses the god of this world to work His wrath and judgements through, but you have claimed the person whom is speaking the truth on the matter does not have truth, and I believe you are wrong.

Would you care to take a look see in the word of God and find out HOW God fulfills His wrath, and judgements?

It might open some eyes.

God is NOT the God of this world, or the God of these human governments.

Begin there...they have satan as their king.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 07:54 PM
First you answer me. If killing is a sin then how is God Himself not a sinner? If killing is a sin then how can Jesus Christ escape such a sin because He will destroy many? You are tap dancing if you cannot answer that very question. God doesn't sin and yet God kills. So is there "killing" which isn't a sin?

As to who are you to tell me... not much in all honesty. Your doctrine is wrong. http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1683551)So, are you saying that God is the beast?

The truth of the matter is that God uses satan as a tool to bring about correction..through governments of men...and, He has established those governing powers, but He in NO way is responsible for the evil that they ALL sow...He cannot even be tempted with evil.

Wars are the result of lust, according to the bible.

Some will say that there is such a thing as a "just" war, and I would agree to that, but, the difference is that God does not do the warfare HIMself, HE sends carnal nations to fulfill that task...whom are led of the flesh, and follow satan right into the pits of it all.

The new covenant DEMANDS and COMMANDS we beat our swords into plowshares...have you read that verse? We, as christians are supposed to be lights in a dark world...showing forth the way of love...not hiding our candles under a basket of worldly ways.

peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 07:57 PM
So, are you saying that God is the beast?

The truth of the matter is that God uses satan as a tool to bring about correction..through governments of men...and, He has established those governing powers, but He in NO way is responsible for the evil that they ALL sow...He cannot even be tempted with evil.

Wars are the result of lust, according to the bible.

Some will say that there is such a thing as a "just" war, and I would agree to that, but, the difference is that God does not do the warfare HIMself, HE sends carnal nations to fulfill that task...whom are led of the flesh, and follow satan right into the pits of it all.

The new covenant DEMANDS and COMMANDS we beat our swords into plowshares...have you read that verse? We, as christians are supposed to be lights in a dark world...showing forth the way of love...not hiding our candles under a basket of worldly ways.

peaceandlove,

janet

Actually, he used Joshua and even led Joshua into the war. Joshua was not a carnal man.

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 08:00 PM
Actually, he used Joshua and even led Joshua into the war. Joshua was not a carnal man.

Let's look at the text you are referring to.

peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 08:02 PM
Let's look at the text you are referring to.

peaceandlove,

janet


Josh 5:13-15

13 Now it came about when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, "Are you for us or for our adversaries?" 14 And he said, "No, rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the Lord." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, "What has my lord to say to his servant?" 15 And the captain of the Lord's host said to Joshua, "Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.
NASB

And not just that, but God said he would give them the land. He commanded them to go and do it. He wanted them to go to war.

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 08:04 PM
just because God kills, does not give us the right to kill.

u can tap dance all u like, niether God or i are impressed at this dancing.

the only thing which God rejoices in in His children living in obedience, and loving as He commanded.

if u feel killing is more righteous than preaching the gospel, u may continue.
if u feel your bullet is faster than God's hand, then carry on,
but the truth stands:
NO WHERE EVER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ARE WE TOLD TO FIGHT A PHYSICAL WAR.
try sticking to the subject!
Is God a sinner for killing?

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 08:05 PM
That verse does not say anything about God telling him to go to war.

Could you supply another?

peaceandlove,

janet

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 08:06 PM
God uses the governments of THIS world to fulfill His wrath, and His will for evil doers.

How He fulfills this is written down in His holy word.

He has handed the governments of this world over to SATAN, and human governments with satan as their "god" fulfill the law of reaping and sowing...those whom pick up the sword will die by the sword. God is not mocked, whatsover we sow, we will reap...and, He has said, not only is killing wrong, but hating is wrong.

We are not called to be the workers in HUMAN governments, that YES, God has set in place and uses the god of this world to work His wrath and judgements through, but you have claimed the person whom is speaking the truth on the matter does not have truth, and I believe you are wrong.

Would you care to take a look see in the word of God and find out HOW God fulfills His wrath, and judgements?

It might open some eyes.

God is NOT the God of this world, or the God of these human governments.

Begin there...they have satan as their king.

peaceandlove,

janet
Where does Scripture say any such thing?

Did Joseph now work for Pharaoh?

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 08:07 PM
So, are you saying that God is the beast?

The truth of the matter is that God uses satan as a tool to bring about correction..through governments of men...and, He has established those governing powers, but He in NO way is responsible for the evil that they ALL sow...He cannot even be tempted with evil.

Wars are the result of lust, according to the bible.

Some will say that there is such a thing as a "just" war, and I would agree to that, but, the difference is that God does not do the warfare HIMself, HE sends carnal nations to fulfill that task...whom are led of the flesh, and follow satan right into the pits of it all.

The new covenant DEMANDS and COMMANDS we beat our swords into plowshares...have you read that verse? We, as christians are supposed to be lights in a dark world...showing forth the way of love...not hiding our candles under a basket of worldly ways.

peaceandlove,

janet
What I am saying is that God killed. You say it is a sin. Therefore... is God a sinner?

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 08:08 PM
Is God a sinner for killing?

God uses satan to fulfill His wrath....He even raises up carnal men, such as Pharoah to fulfill it..that does NOT mean that God is the one whom is responsible for the act...or otherwise, God would be the BEAST, for example.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 08:10 PM
What I am saying is that God killed. You say it is a sin. Therefore... is God a sinner?

I understand what you are saying, I just do not agree that it is God that is the one whom does the actual "act".

He uses satan, to fulfill His wrath, and judgements on men, and, most of the time it is through the law of reaping and sowing.

I ask you again, is God the "beast?"..was Pharoah GOD?

peaceandlove,

janet

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 08:11 PM
God uses satan to fulfill His wrath....He even raises up carnal men, such as Pharoah to fulfill it..that does NOT mean that God is the one whom is responsible for the act...or otherwise, God would be the BEAST, for example.

peaceandlove,

janet
Did God Himself kill? Answer the question?

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1683594#post1683594)
God uses the governments of THIS world to fulfill His wrath, and His will for evil doers.

How He fulfills this is written down in His holy word.

He has handed the governments of this world over to SATAN, and human governments with satan as their "god" fulfill the law of reaping and sowing...those whom pick up the sword will die by the sword. God is not mocked, whatsover we sow, we will reap...and, He has said, not only is killing wrong, but hating is wrong.

We are not called to be the workers in HUMAN governments, that YES, God has set in place and uses the god of this world to work His wrath and judgements through, but you have claimed the person whom is speaking the truth on the matter does not have truth, and I believe you are wrong.

Would you care to take a look see in the word of God and find out HOW God fulfills His wrath, and judgements?

It might open some eyes.

God is NOT the God of this world, or the God of these human governments.

Begin there...they have satan as their king.

peaceandlove,

janet


Where does Scripture say any such thing?

Did Joseph now work for Pharaoh?

Which point are you wanting scripture for?

I am not saying it is a sin to work in a human government...but, Joseph did not kill his enemies, either.


IF he did, where is that written?

peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 08:15 PM
I understand what you are saying, I just do not agree that it is God that is the one whom does the actual "act".

He uses satan, to fulfill His wrath, and judgements on men, and, most of the time it is through the law of reaping and sowing.

I ask you again, is God the "beast?"..was Pharoah GOD?

peaceandlove,

janet

Who killed Korah? Who killed Pharaoh and the Egyptian army?

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 08:15 PM
Did God Himself kill? Answer the question?

I have already answered that...NO.

He has in place a law of reaping and sowing. Do you agree with that?

We all reap what we sow. If we sow war, we are most likely to die from war.

He whom takes up the sword shall die by the sword. That is a law of God...

peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 08:17 PM
Which point are you wanting scripture for?

I am not saying it is a sin to work in a human government...but, Joseph did not kill his enemies, either.


IF he did, where is that written?

peaceandlove,

janet

As I stated above, it was Joshua. Perhaps you thought I wrote Joseph. You would be correct in that God did not use Joseph to lead an army. But he did lead Joshua and Moses into war. Jesus will lead an army again in Rev.

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 08:18 PM
I have already answered that...NO.

He has in place a law of reaping and sowing. Do you agree with that?

We all reap what we sow. If we sow war, we are most likely to die from war.

He whom takes up the sword shall die by the sword. That is a law of God...

peaceandlove,

janet
But pay attention to the entire counsel of God. David, a man of war, did not reap peace. But even still... David was a man after God's own heart. Why?

LaidDownHisLIfe
Jun 24th 2008, 08:31 PM
But pay attention to the entire counsel of God. David, a man of war, did not reap peace. But even still... David was a man after God's own heart. Why?

please read matt5 and luke 6.

THERE HAS BEEN A CHANGE.
no more eye4 an eye,
NO MORE!!!!!

ProjectPeter
Jun 24th 2008, 08:33 PM
Really? So when Jesus returns... what happens? Ever read Revelation and that whole thing about blood and destruction? Is Jesus then a sinner at that point?

matthew94
Jun 24th 2008, 08:41 PM
Even though LaidDownHisLIfe isn't making a good argument (shows no ability to discuss the difference b/w individual and corporation, kingdom of God vs. kingdoms of world, etc), we should make mention of the fact that Christian pacifism is a legitimate position. There are some good arguments for Christians to NOT participate in the wars of the nations they are citizens of. LaidDownHisLIfe would have been far better off by attacking the blending of american and christian ideals that many evangelics do, in fact, blend with unfortunate results.

keck553
Jun 24th 2008, 08:41 PM
Whether to participate in war is between an individual and God. If they think by not fighting is obedience to God, then we have no place casting a stumbling block before them, and vice versa. We are one in Christ, and should strive to see no more than Christ crucified in each other.

When we read our bibles, remember it in the Jewish context. Jesus was born and raised a Jew, in fact He is the One who gave the Law to Moses in the first place.

The eye for eye, tooth for tooth, burning for burning command was in the context of corporate judicial punishment, Judged by appointed Judges and witnessed by at least two witnesses who were scrutinized for their honesty and equity.

In the 1st century, the Jews had perverted this command into individual vigilantism - people were applying this ruling over insignificant feuds, and using it out of context for vengence on their brothers.

This was not what was taught through Moses, and Jesus made it known. In this teaching, He also brought the concept inside, to the heart by teaching how much better is it to settle with your brother than squabble in the courts. He put these things and others on our hearts, in fullfillment of Jer 31:31-33.

God does not change.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 08:42 PM
Even though LaidDownHisLIfe isn't making a good argument (shows no ability to discuss the difference b/w individual and corporation, kingdom of God vs. kingdoms of world, etc), we should make mention of the fact that Christian pacifism is a legitimate position. There are some good arguments for Christians to NOT participate in the wars of the nations they are citizens of. LaidDownHisLIfe would have been far better off by attacking the blending of american and christian ideals that many evangelics do, in fact, blend with unfortunate results.

That all depends on how you define pacifism. God does call for violence in some situations. How would you define "christian" pacifism?

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 08:53 PM
Who killed Korah? Who killed Pharaoh and the Egyptian army?


I personally agree with David Guzik's commentary on the matter. God did NOT set out to kill anyone.

In fact, He made a way for the eqyption army to turn around and be spared.

It was their own acts that led to their death...and, I will put my thoughts in ( ) so, as to add my own opinions. Of course, that does not mean that anyone has to agree with me, or David Guzik..but, I do not see God killing ANYONE...

Here is how David Guzik states it:


3. (10-12) The response of the children of Israel.
a. They were very afraid: this made sense; according to all outward observation, Israel was in serious trouble with Pharaoh's armies on one side and the Red Sea on the other, with no chance for escape.
i. God led Israel right into a cul-de-sac. There was no was of escape except the way they had come in, and the Egyptian army had that covered.


(God led the Israelites into this culdesac for a reason. His aim was to hopefully twart the actions of the egyptions. No where does it actually say in the account that God killed anyone...that comes only from the added thoughts of men..in mho.)


b. Therefore, God instructed Moses to lead Israel in a way that looked confused, so Pharaoh would believe They are bewildered by the land, and come to strike Israel.

(or likewise, turn around and go back where they came from. NO WHERE does it read that God had a motive to cause them to enter into the water that killed them. Who are we to claim the mind of God on this matter? )


2. (19-20) God neutralizes the Egyptian army with the fire.
a. The pillar of fire mentioned in 13:21-22 is positioned as a barrier between the attacking Egyptians and the children of Israel; God will protect Israel from the Egyptian attack.
b. We have little idea how much God does to protect us from attack; we believe ourselves to be overwhelmed in battle right now, but just don't know what it would be like if the Lord pulled back His protection.
c. The Egyptians didn't know it, but the same pillar of fire that prevented them from pursuing the children of Israel was also protecting their lives. If they would have submitted to the Lord who was blocking their way with His presence, they would have been spared.


(I believe that they reaped what they sowed, but God gave them every OPPERTUNITY to turn back....because they did not turn back, they were killed. I don't believe it was in Gods MOTIVES, for He cannot be even tempted with evil. Others will disagree, and that is fine. We all must go with out own conscience on these things, but the very fact that the Lord COMMANDS we beat our swords into pruning hooks, when we come into relationship with Him, via the NEW covenant explains to me that He is NOT the Author of killing, and death, through worldly wars. )


peaceandlove,


janet

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 08:59 PM
I personally agree with David Guzik's commentary on the matter. God did NOT set out to kill anyone.

But that's not the point. Of course he didn't set out from the beginning to kill folks. But the question is, did he kill?

Who killed Pharaoh and his army? God did it directly. Who killed Korah? It was God that did that with no help from anyone else. He did it himself.

And who will lead the armies in Revelation? It will be Jesus himself. God is no anti-war pacifist as many make him out to be. He actually commanded Saul to go and destroy an entire nation. Clearly, God would not command a man to sin.

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 09:00 PM
As I stated above, it was Joshua. Perhaps you thought I wrote Joseph. You would be correct in that God did not use Joseph to lead an army. But he did lead Joshua and Moses into war. Jesus will lead an army again in Rev.


..and, the walls came tumbling down, without one arrow being thrown.

So, I fail to see your point...those walls were put down by faith, not carnal warfare.

peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 09:02 PM
..and, the walls came tumbling down, without one arrow being thrown.

So, I fail to see your point...those walls were put down by faith, not carnal warfare.

peaceandlove,

janet

How many of those folks in Jericho survived? How many did Joshua kill after the walls came down? What about Ai? What of the 5 kings later? What of Saul and the Amelakites? What about Moses and the Amalekites?

The list goes on and on and on about how God commanded folks to go to war. The war was fought by faith. The walls came down illustrating that God was fighting for Joshua. Then Joshua, as commanded, was able to continue to possess the rest of the land and he put his foot on the neck of kings and ran them through with the sword.

Jesus will lead another army in revelation.

LaidDownHisLIfe
Jun 24th 2008, 09:04 PM
But that's not the point. Of course he didn't set out from the beginning to kill folks. But the question is, did he kill?

Who killed Pharaoh and his army? God did it directly. Who killed Korah? It was God that did that with no help from anyone else. He did it himself.

And who will lead the armies in Revelation? It will be Jesus himself. God is no anti-war pacifist as many make him out to be. He actually commanded Saul to go and destroy an entire nation. Clearly, God would not command a man to sin.

i'm not saying[ever], God does not kill.
read carefully!
i'm not saying God is a pacifist!
read carefully!
most of what i'm saying[what Jesus is saying-
"love your enemies,
do good to those who hate u
bless those who curse"

read carefully.
God is telling us what He wants from us in EVERY situation!

God is gonna wipe out people in the end it seems, but that's HIS doing, not ours.

read carefully!

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 09:06 PM
i'm not saying[ever], God does not kill.
read carefully!
i'm not saying God is a pacifist!
read carefully!
most of what i'm saying[what Jesus is saying-
"love your enemies,
do good to those who hate u
bless those who curse"

read carefully.
God is telling us what He wants from us in EVERY situation!

God is gonna wipe out people in the end it seems, but that's HIS doing, not ours.

read carefully!

Now that we know GOd is not a pacifist, can we also agree that he sends men to war? He sent David, Saul, Moses, Joshua, Samson and many others. Then he uses some of these men as examples of faith in scripture.

God is not a pacifist and neither are we. Romans 13 gives government the right to wield the sword. That's the whole point of God establishing government after the flood. Authority is meant to wield the sword of God's wrath against evil.

God kills but God does not sin. We too can kill and not sin.

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 09:08 PM
But that's not the point. Of course he didn't set out from the beginning to kill folks. But the question is, did he kill?

Who killed Pharaoh and his army? God did it directly. Who killed Korah? It was God that did that with no help from anyone else. He did it himself.

And who will lead the armies in Revelation? It will be Jesus himself. God is no anti-war pacifist as many make him out to be. He actually commanded Saul to go and destroy an entire nation. Clearly, God would not command a man to sin.


Well, I do not agree..so, I suppose we will agree to disagree, the bible says it is actually satan, through the spirit of frogs that is leading the world to destruction, via Armagheddon.

Do you then say that those spirits of frogs are God?


Rev 16:13


And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=16&verse=14&version=kjv#14)
For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

God is allowing this world to reap what it has sown. Just like He said.

I don't think He is going to be mocked.

peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 09:12 PM
Well, I do not agree..so, I suppose we will agree to disagree, the bible says it is actually satan, through the spirit of frogs that is leading the world to destruction, via Armagheddon.

Do you then say that those spirits of frogs are God?

Rev 16:13

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rev&chapter=16&verse=14&version=kjv#14)
For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

God is allowing this world to reap what it has sown. Just like He said.

I don't think He is going to be mocked.

peaceandlove,

janet



So who commanded Joshua to take Canaan? Who commanded Saul to kill the Amalekites? Does God command men to sin? Nope. So, war must not always be sinful.

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 09:12 PM
How many of those folks in Jericho survived? How many did Joshua kill after the walls came down? What about Ai? What of the 5 kings later? What of Saul and the Amelakites? What about Moses and the Amalekites?

The list goes on and on and on about how God commanded folks to go to war. The war was fought by faith. The walls came down illustrating that God was fighting for Joshua. Then Joshua, as commanded, was able to continue to possess the rest of the land and he put his foot on the neck of kings and ran them through with the sword.

Jesus will lead another army in revelation.

Could you supply the chapters and verses that state these things?..the walls came down by faith, and, IF God wanted them to just go in and WAR and KILL, He would never of told them to do it in the way of faith by marching around the city seven times..as I read it.


Thanks.

peaceandlove,

janet

fewarechosen
Jun 24th 2008, 09:16 PM
i didnt read this whole thread , but i wanted to touch on something

god can kill whoever he wants because his judgments are rightous and true, he knows the persons heart and fully understands everything when he allows killings and death --- when you are able to judge a man and know all his sins --then you can go kill. till then its best to learn silence and pray that god hides you in the days to come

13Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.


so shhhhhhhh and let god decide who is killed not some voters who dont even know whats good for them.


remember all the kings of the earth have committed fornication with the whore --- so when you think your government is supposed to know who and how to kill --you better think again.

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 09:21 PM
But pay attention to the entire counsel of God. David, a man of war, did not reap peace. But even still... David was a man after God's own heart. Why?


David was a man of war before his changed heart...afterwards, this is what he had to say about war:

Ps 68:30 Rebuke the company of spearmen, the multitude of the bulls, with the calves of the people, [till every one] submit himself with pieces of silver: scatter thou the people [that] delight in war.

Ps 120:7 I [am for] peace: but when I speak, they [are] for war.

Ps 140:2 Which imagine mischiefs in [their] heart; continually are they gathered together [for] war.

As I have already expressed, this is what God expects when we come to a new covenant relationship:

Isa 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Sounds to me like David had a change in heart.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 09:23 PM
Really? So when Jesus returns... what happens? Ever read Revelation and that whole thing about blood and destruction? Is Jesus then a sinner at that point?

The destruction is the result of men and bombs....destruction by fire.

At least that is how I read it.

.....that is why Jesus is coming to put a stop to it, for if He did not, no flesh would be saved alive...man would completely obliterate this earth.


peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 09:23 PM
Could you supply the chapters and verses that state these things?..the walls came down by faith, and, IF God wanted them to just go in and WAR and KILL, He would never of told them to do it in the way of faith by marching around the city seven times..as I read it.

Thanks.

peaceandlove,

janet


Sure. I can state many such passages. Here is a very clear command by God to Saul to go and wipe out an entire nation. Then I will show you some for Joshua.

1 Sam 15:1-3

15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "The Lord sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the Lord. 2 Thus says the Lord of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3 'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"
NASB

Saul did not obey the command.

1 Sam 15:9
9 But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were not willing to destroy them utterly; but everything despised and worthless, that they utterly destroyed.
NASB

And as a result, God judged Saul and took away his kingdom.

1 Sam 15:10-11

10 Then the word of the Lord came to Samuel, saying, 11 "I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not carried out My commands."
NASB

And as for Joshua. The men warned Rahab that they were going to kill all in the city. She had to make preparations.

Josh 2:17-19
17 And the men said to her, "We shall be free from this oath to you which you have made us swear, 18 unless, when we come into the land, you tie this cord of scarlet thread in the window through which you let us down, and gather to yourself into the house your father and your mother and your brothers and all your father's household. 19 And it shall come about that anyone who goes out of the doors of your house into the street, his blood shall be on his own head, and we shall be free; but anyone who is with you in the house, his blood shall be on our head, if a hand is laid on him
NASB

But more importantly, look at how Joshua dealt with the kings later in the book.

Josh 10:7-10
7 So Joshua went up from Gilgal, he and all the people of war with him and all the valiant warriors. 8 And the Lord said to Joshua, "Do not fear them, for I have given them into your hands; not one of them shall stand before you." 9 So Joshua came upon them suddenly by marching all night from Gilgal. 10 And the Lord confounded them before Israel, and He slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and pursued them by the way of the ascent of Beth-horon, and struck them as far as Azekah and Makkedah.
NASB

and then...

Josh 10:11
11 And it came about as they fled from before Israel, while they were at the descent of Beth-horon, that the Lord threw large stones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died; there were more who died from the hailstones than those whom the sons of Israel killed with the sword.
NASB

When some escaped the sword of Joshua, God himself threw stones down from heaven to kill those that were fleeing.

and finally the five kings went and hid in a cave and Joshua pulled them out...

Josh 10:24-26
24 And it came about when they brought these kings out to Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said to the chiefs of the men of war who had gone with him, "Come near, put your feet on the necks of these kings." So they came near and put their feet on their necks. 25 Joshua then said to them, "Do not fear or be dismayed! Be strong and courageous, for thus the Lord will do to all your enemies with whom you fight." 26 So afterward Joshua struck them and put them to death, and he hanged them on five trees; and they hung on the trees until evening.
NASB

God not only commanded Joshua to go to war, he actively participated in the war.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 09:24 PM
i didnt read this whole thread , but i wanted to touch on something

god can kill whoever he wants because his judgments are rightous and true, he knows the persons heart and fully understands everything when he allows killings and death --- when you are able to judge a man and know all his sins --then you can go kill. till then its best to learn silence and pray that god hides you in the days to come

13Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.


so shhhhhhhh and let god decide who is killed not some voters who dont even know whats good for them.


remember all the kings of the earth have committed fornication with the whore --- so when you think your government is supposed to know who and how to kill --you better think again.

God created government for the very purpose of shedding man's blood.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 09:25 PM
David was a man of war before his changed heart...afterwards, this is what he had to say about war:

Ps 68:30 Rebuke the company of spearmen, the multitude of the bulls, with the calves of the people, [till every one] submit himself with pieces of silver: scatter thou the people [that] delight in war.

Ps 120:7 I [am for] peace: but when I speak, they [are] for war.

Ps 140:2 Which imagine mischiefs in [their] heart; continually are they gathered together [for] war.

As I have already expressed, this is what God expects when we come to a new covenant relationship:

Isa 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Sounds to me like David had a change in heart.

peaceandlove,

janet


No Godly man will delight in war. That was David's point. What about God commanding Saul to go to war?

fewarechosen
Jun 24th 2008, 09:26 PM
lots of warmongers i see

you will have your war, that is for sure


be wise as serpents and harmless as doves

for vengence is his

and pray you are not in his way



13Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 09:31 PM
lots of warmongers i see

you will have your war, that is for sure

Woa there buddy. Better back up on that one. There is a far difference in a warmonger and one who recognizes the proper place for war. No more name calling.


be wise as serpents and harmless as doves

for vengence is his

and pray you are not in his way

13Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.

Vengeance is God's. How does he take it? Romans 13 says government takes it.

fewarechosen
Jun 24th 2008, 09:32 PM
God created government for the very purpose of shedding man's blood.


i agree so its best to not claim to be a part of any --because we are not of this world -- so what business do we have with any wars

so i claim to be part of none


it just seems like some are way to eager to caste a vote that wages war on another human being

but thats because they know not how to love their enemy

but god knows his children, and he also knows those who just claim to be.

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 09:33 PM
Sure. I can state many such passages. Here is a very clear command by God to Saul to go and wipe out an entire nation. Then I will show you some for Joshua.

1 Sam 15:1-3

15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "The Lord sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the Lord. 2 Thus says the Lord of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3 'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"
NASB

Saul did not obey the command.

1 Sam 15:9
9 But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were not willing to destroy them utterly; but everything despised and worthless, that they utterly destroyed.
NASB

And as a result, God judged Saul and took away his kingdom.

1 Sam 15:10-11

10 Then the word of the Lord came to Samuel, saying, 11 "I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not carried out My commands."
NASB

And as for Joshua. The men warned Rahab that they were going to kill all in the city. She had to make preparations.

Josh 2:17-19
17 And the men said to her, "We shall be free from this oath to you which you have made us swear, 18 unless, when we come into the land, you tie this cord of scarlet thread in the window through which you let us down, and gather to yourself into the house your father and your mother and your brothers and all your father's household. 19 And it shall come about that anyone who goes out of the doors of your house into the street, his blood shall be on his own head, and we shall be free; but anyone who is with you in the house, his blood shall be on our head, if a hand is laid on him
NASB

But more importantly, look at how Joshua dealt with the kings later in the book.

Josh 10:7-10
7 So Joshua went up from Gilgal, he and all the people of war with him and all the valiant warriors. 8 And the Lord said to Joshua, "Do not fear them, for I have given them into your hands; not one of them shall stand before you." 9 So Joshua came upon them suddenly by marching all night from Gilgal. 10 And the Lord confounded them before Israel, and He slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and pursued them by the way of the ascent of Beth-horon, and struck them as far as Azekah and Makkedah.
NASB

and then...

Josh 10:11
11 And it came about as they fled from before Israel, while they were at the descent of Beth-horon, that the Lord threw large stones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died; there were more who died from the hailstones than those whom the sons of Israel killed with the sword.
NASB

When some escaped the sword of Joshua, God himself threw stones down from heaven to kill those that were fleeing.

and finally the five kings went and hid in a cave and Joshua pulled them out...

Josh 10:24-26
24 And it came about when they brought these kings out to Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said to the chiefs of the men of war who had gone with him, "Come near, put your feet on the necks of these kings." So they came near and put their feet on their necks. 25 Joshua then said to them, "Do not fear or be dismayed! Be strong and courageous, for thus the Lord will do to all your enemies with whom you fight." 26 So afterward Joshua struck them and put them to death, and he hanged them on five trees; and they hung on the trees until evening.
NASB

God not only commanded Joshua to go to war, he actively participated in the war.

Well, I cannot argue with those verses, but, it is clear to me that in the new covenant, God demands a bit more...for an eye for an eye, is not the way for us...and, I have to agree with Fewarechosen, and his words of wisdom, it is not wise to listen to earthly governments and to take their ideas as if coming from God.



peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 09:35 PM
No Godly man will delight in war. That was David's point. What about God commanding Saul to go to war?

Why does God tell us NOW to beat our swords into plowshares, if He did not intend for us to? That would be the better question, in mho.

I must look at things from the new covenant perspective, when things don't seem to line up, quite right.

peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 09:38 PM
i agree so its best to not claim to be a part of any --because we are not of this world -- so what business do we have with any wars

so i claim to be part of none

it just seems like some are way to eager to caste a vote that wages war on another human being

but thats because they know not how to love their enemy

but god knows his children, and he also knows those who just claim to be.

When God created government, he did so with only believers. Joseph, not being a part of Egypt, still functioned as a government official. Nothing wrong with being part of the government. Daniel and the three Hebrew children did too. As did Joshua and Moses.

Nothing wrong with bearing the sword of God's wrath as long as you are in the position of authority to do so. As an individual, turn the other cheek. As one in authority, wield the sword against evil so that evil men will fear.

Naphal
Jun 24th 2008, 09:38 PM
Of course, I could be wrong... but fairly obviously it wasn't to use them as weapons, because you never hear of them using swords... well, apart from once, in the Garden, when Jesus rebukes them, and heals the injured man.

I see Jesus' words here as a metaphor. We should give up everything we have... absolutely everything, and purchase a sword... in other words, we should arm ourselves with that weapon sharper than a two edged sword... that is the Word of truth.

Ok, but he is giving literal commands here to buy real swords and real swords are for fighting...I assume the swords weren't for offensive means but certainly defensive reasons. Keep in mind this is hours before Jesus was going to be arrested...

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 09:38 PM
Woa there buddy. Better back up on that one. There is a far difference in a warmonger and one who recognizes the proper place for war. No more name calling.



Vengeance is God's. How does he take it? Romans 13 says government takes it.

That is correct, but we also need to remember that God's kingdom/government is NOT of this world, but, if it was, THEN His servants would fight. Have you read that?

You see, there is something really wrong with this situation, in mho.

We are called to be lights, not arrows.

peaceandlove,

janet

mcgyver
Jun 24th 2008, 09:39 PM
Something else to consider:

Even as God has always used imperfect men to accomplish His perfect plan,

So He also uses war (and will continue to do so) to accomplish His will.

In Romans 13, and 1st Peter, Christians are admonished to submit to the authorities that God Himself has appointed to rule over men...What then about the draft? WWI, WWII, VietNam as examples.

Is God then in the habit of "forcing" His people to sin?

If God has on one hand forbidden Christians from going to war, but yet on the other hand tells these same Christians to obey the "draft" and a call to arms (for example)...then is it just me or is there a problem here?? :hmm:

Then of course there is Psalm 144:1:

Blessed be the LORD my Rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle—

Giving God the glory for enabling us...yea; training us to "sin" against Him? :rolleyes: Hmmmmmm

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 09:39 PM
Well, I cannot argue with those verses, but, it is clear to me that in the new covenant, God demands a bit more...for an eye for an eye, is not the way for us...and, I have to agree with Fewarechosen, and his words of wisdom, it is not wise to listen to earthly governments and to take their ideas as if coming from God.

peaceandlove,

janet

Governments sin and make mistakes. But God desires for them to shed the blood of innocent men. That's what Romans 13 tells us. He instituted government for that very purpose.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 09:41 PM
Why does God tell us NOW to beat our swords into plowshares, if He did not intend for us to? That would be the better question, in mho.

I must look at things from the new covenant perspective, when things don't seem to line up, quite right.

peaceandlove,

janet

When the lion eats with the lamb and stops eating the lamb, then we will beat our swords into plow shares. That time has not yet come. The new covenant did not change God. His character concerning war is still the same. Romans 13 shows that God willed Government to bear his sword and shed the blood of evil men.

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 09:41 PM
When God created government, he did so with only believers. Joseph, not being a part of Egypt, still functioned as a government official. Nothing wrong with being part of the government. Daniel and the three Hebrew children did too. As did Joshua and Moses.

Nothing wrong with bearing the sword of God's wrath as long as you are in the position of authority to do so. As an individual, turn the other cheek. As one in authority, wield the sword against evil so that evil men will fear.

We are to be IN the world, but NOT OF THE WORLD.

There is a big difference there, bro.

I could not agree with your words here...so, we must agree to disagree, respectfully, ok?;)


peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 09:42 PM
That is correct, but we also need to remember that God's kingdom/government is NOT of this world, but, if it was, THEN His servants would fight. Have you read that?

You see, there is something really wrong with this situation, in mho.

We are called to be lights, not arrows.

peaceandlove,

janet

Yep. That is exactly right. His kingdom is not of this world. But as he said, if it were, he would fight! He saw nothing wrong with war if done for the right purposes. That's why he said he would fight. He knew Saul was commanded of God to fight, as was David, Samson and many others.

Romans 13 shows that it is God's will for government to bear the sword. Not sure why so many people think it an evil thing to carry out God's will.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 09:44 PM
We are to be IN the world, but NOT OF THE WORLD.

There is a big difference there, bro.

I could not agree with your words here...so, we must agree to disagree, respectfully, ok?;)

peaceandlove,

janet


THe world is not a government. It is the following...

1 John 2:16
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
NASB

Government is not of the world. God established government.

keck553
Jun 24th 2008, 09:50 PM
God's ways are far above our ways. One thing I do know from reading the Bible. God protected His Seed first revealed Eve, then to Shem, Abraham....and no matter what satan did to destroy the Seed, God's will was done. If Jesus is not the throw-out-the-Romans-Messiah that the Jews expected, then certainly God routed satan with an awesome end run.

A few ways God protected the Seed of Messiah:

The Flood..then...

God hardened Pharaoh's heart, in other words, God strengthend his disobedience. God could have allowed Pharaoh to capitulate before the passover lamb, but that would not have fulfilled phophecy or God's will.

Exo 32:26 then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me!" And all the sons of Levi gathered together to him.
Exo 32:27 He said to them, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Every man of you put his sword upon his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.'"
Exo 32:28 So the sons of Levi did as Moses instructed, and about three thousand men of the people fell that day.
Num 33:51 "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'When you cross over the Jordan into the land of Canaan,
Num 33:52 then you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their figured stones, and destroy all their molten images and demolish all their high places;
Num 33:53 and you shall take possession of the land and live in it, for I have given the land to you to possess it.
Num 33:54 'You shall inherit the land by lot according to your families; to the larger you shall give more inheritance, and to the smaller you shall give less inheritance. Wherever the lot falls to anyone, that shall be his. You shall inherit according to the tribes of your fathers.
Num 33:55 'But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then it shall come about that those whom you let remain of them will become as pricks in your eyes and as thorns in your sides, and they will trouble you in the land in which you live.
Num 33:56 'And as I plan to do to them, so I will do to you.'"

Deu 13:12 (13:13) "If you hear it told that in one of your cities which Adonai your God is giving you to live in,
Deu 13:13 (13:14) certain scoundrels have sprung up among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city by saying, 'Let's go and serve other gods, which you haven't known,'
Deu 13:14 (13:15) then you are to investigate the matter, inquiring and searching diligently. If the rumor is true, if it is confirmed that such detestable things are being done among you,
Deu 13:15 (13:16) you must put the inhabitants of that city to death with the sword, destroying it completely with the sword, everything in it, including its livestock.
Deu 13:16 (13:17) Heap all its spoils in an open space, and burn the city with its spoils to the ground for Adonai your God; it will remain a tel forever and not be built again —
1Sa 15:2 Here is what Adonai-Tzva'ot says: 'I remember what `Amalek did to Isra'el, how they fought against Isra'el when they were coming up from Egypt.
1Sa 15:3 Now go and attack `Amalek, and completely destroy everything they have. Don't spare them, but kill men and women, children and babies, cows and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "
Jer 15:3 "I will assign them four kinds [of scourges]," says Adonai, "the sword to kill, dogs to drag away, birds in the air and wild animals to devour and destroy.

----

Eze 9:4 Adonai said to him, "Go throughout the city, through all Yerushalayim, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who are sighing and crying over all the disgusting practices that are being committed in it."
Eze 9:5 To the others I heard him say, "Go through the city after him and strike! Don't let your eye spare; have no pity!
Eze 9:6 Kill old men, young men, girls, little children, women — slaughter them all! But don't go near anyone with the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." They began with the leaders in front of the house.
Eze 9:7 Then he said to them, "Defile the house! Fill the courtyards with corpses! Get going!" So they went out, spreading death in the city.

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 09:53 PM
But God desires for them to shed the blood of innocent men.I hope this is a typo......:D

gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Lev 17:4 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the LORD before the tabernacle of the LORD; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:

Deut 19:10 That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance, and [so] blood be upon thee.


2 kings 21:16 Moreover Manasseh shed innocent blood very much, till he had filled Jerusalem from one end to another; beside his sin wherewith he made Judah to sin, in doing [that which was] evil in the sight of the LORD.

2 kings 24:4 And also for the innocent blood that he shed: for he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood; which the LORD would not pardon.

1 Ch 28:3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou [hast been] a man of war, and hast shed blood.

Pro 6:16 These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Pro/6/17.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Pro&chapter=6&verse=17&version=KJV#17)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Pro&chapter=6&verse=17&version=KJV#17)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i_blank9.gifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Pro&chapter=6&verse=17&version=KJV#17)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Pro&chapter=6&verse=17&version=KJV#17)
Pro 6:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Pro&chapter=6&verse=17&version=kjv#17)
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Could you explain these inconsistancies?

Thanks,
peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 09:57 PM
Yep. That is exactly right. His kingdom is not of this world. But as he said, if it were, he would fight! He saw nothing wrong with war if done for the right purposes. That's why he said he would fight. He knew Saul was commanded of God to fight, as was David, Samson and many others.

Romans 13 shows that it is God's will for government to bear the sword. Not sure why so many people think it an evil thing to carry out God's will.

You are missing the point...IF His kingdom WAS of this world..He WOULD FIGHT. Is His kingdom of this world? No.

Niether are the governments of men....they have the god of this world as their king.

You cannot serve God and mammon/earthly kingdoms.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 10:00 PM
THe world is not a government. It is the following...

1 John 2:16
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
NASB

Government is not of the world. God established government.

No one is arguing that God established it. That does not mean however that the governments of men, are godly governments...they are of the enemy....God only has ONE government, it is called the Kingdom of God.

You are confusing issues here.


You are trying to say that just because God established human governments to be in place to keep in check "the world", that the government itself is somehow not evil?

That is NOT true. The whole world lieth in wickedness...especially since the governments of men are led by the FLESH/through LUST.

Gotta get it right, there bro.


Otherwise, you have God as the Author of this confusing mess we see here today..I don't think that is gonna fly with Him, .lol.

peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 10:09 PM
No one is arguing that God established it. That does not mean however that the governments of men, are godly governments...they are of the enemy....God only has ONE government, it is called the Kingdom of God.

Now that is where you are wrong. God established it because he is the one that gives authority. He is the one that turns the hearts of kings. Men are not to turn their back on government. We see many men of God in government throughout scripture.


You are trying to say that just because God established human governments to be in place to keep in check "the world", that that government itself is not of the world, and sinful,evil.

That is NOT true. The whole world lieth in wickedness.

Gotta get it right, there bro.

I already gave a biblical definition of world. It is the lust of the eye, lust of the flesh, and the boastful pride of life. God didn't establish those. He did establish government. Do men misuse government? Of course! Does that make government of the world? Of course not. The Pharisees misused the scriptures, but that did not mean the scriptures should not be used by God's children. Same for government. Romans 13 shows God's purpose in government. Nowhere in the NT did he tell a soldier to resign from being a soldier. Nowhere did he tell anyone to step down from a position in government. If anything, we need more believers in government. Not less!


Otherwise, you have God as the Author of this confusing mess we see here today..I don't think that is gonna fly with Him, .lol.

peaceandlove,

janet


I think God is very clear on the matter from Noah, to Joshua to Debra to Saul and David to Daniel, all the way to Romans 13 and Christ in Rev.

God's character concerning war and government has not changed.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 10:11 PM
You are missing the point...IF His kingdom WAS of this world..He WOULD FIGHT. Is His kingdom of this world? No.

Niether are the governments of men....they have the god of this world as their king.

You cannot serve God and mammon/earthly kingdoms.

peaceandlove,

janet

Mammon is not earthly kingdoms. One cannot serve God and mammon but one is commanded to submit to earthly kingdoms. I got the point but not the way you want me to get it. Jesus did not disapprove of war. Even some of his parables were about war and when to surrender.

Government is not of men. It is of God. Now, men can pollute government and they have. But Romans 13 shows that government and authority are of God.

theleast
Jun 24th 2008, 10:12 PM
This thread is amazing me. The hunger for war among you all is absolutly insane. Christ tells us in exact terms to turn the other cheek and forgive. And here we are debating war!

War is the business of governments not the congregation. And you know what is going to happen to the worlds governments? In one hour they are going to be thrown down in the day of God's wrath.

theleast
Jun 24th 2008, 10:12 PM
Mammon is not earthly kingdoms. One cannot serve God and mammon but one is commanded to submit to earthly kingdoms. I got the point but not the way you want me to get it. Jesus did not disapprove of war. Even some of his parables were about war and when to surrender.

Government is not of men. It is of God. Now, men can pollute government and they have. But Romans 13 shows that government and authority are of God.

We are not commanded to submit to earthly kingdoms, we are ordered to follow the laws. There is a big difference.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 10:14 PM
I hope this is a typo......:D

Typo? Did you change the quote? The post I wrote above says "evil men". Perhaps I edited it out quickly as I don't remember. But of course, God does not desire the shedding of blood of innocent men. Romans 13 is about evil men.


gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

That is when God established the concept of man shedding man's blood. He instituted right after deciding he wasn't going to intervene in world affairs with a flood again. She he commanded man to shed man's blood when man murdered.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 10:15 PM
We are not commanded to submit to earthly kingdoms, we are ordered to follow the laws. There is a big difference.


Rom 13:1

13 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
NASB

Be in subjection, submit... same thing.

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 10:15 PM
I don't believe His character/motive has changed either.

I don't believe HE wanted HIS people having an EARTHLY king over them to begin with. It was Israel after the flesh that wanted that, to begin with, and just because He LET them have what they wanted does NOT mean it was HIS WILL, or HIS ways....He said, man would reap what they sowed, and He will not be mocked. This world is going to reap destruction, because that is what IT is sowing. NO ONE can argue that..and, it is NOT God that is leading it there, it is men, whom follow those little frogs, around, with lust and greed in their hearts.

His ways are not our ways, and they certainly are not the ways of this fallen world's EARTHLY GOVERNMENTS.

So, we will disagree.

It is an abomination to the Lord to shed innocent blood.

If it was an abomination then, it is now...

and, look at every war...on this earth, how much innocent blood has been shed?

They now call it colateral damage.....:rolleyes:..with the children and woman, and perhaps, God already knew where the governments of men, would end up, with their weapons of MASS destruction, and, that is why He abhors it all.




Have a good say, I am not going to say anymore in this thread.


peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 10:19 PM
Rom 13:1

13 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
NASB

Be in subjection, submit... same thing.

TO THE LAWS, not the greed, lust and PRIDE.

War is not a law, for crying out loud.

It is a matter of the heart.

The bible says it only comes from lust.

Does God want us to follow the ways of lust?


Never mind, lol

Gotta get out of here, it is getting tooo weird.

peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 10:21 PM
I don't believe His character/motive has changed either.

I don't believe HE wanted HIS people having an EARTHLY king over them to begin with. It was Israel after the flesh that wanted that, to begin with, and just because He LET them have what they wanted does NOT mean it was HIS WILL, or HIS ways....He said, man would reap what they sowed, and He will not be mocked. This world is going to reap destruction, because that is what IT is sowing. NO ONE can argue that..and, it is NOT God that is leading it there, it is men, whom follow those little frogs, around, with lust and greed in their hearts.

He led them to war before they had a king. He led them to war with Joshua who was not a king. With Moses and he wasn't a king. He led them to war with Debra, Samson, Gideon who was not a king.

As you said, he doesn't change. So if he commanded war in the past, then in his heart, he doesn't see war as wrong. For he will not command men to sin.


It is an abomination to the Lord to shed innocent blood.

If it was an abomination then, it is now...

Agreed. But not all in war are innocent.


and, look at every war...on this earth, how much innocent blood has been shed?

They now call it colateral damage.....:rolleyes:..with the children and woman, and perhaps, God already knew where the governments of men, would end up, with their weapons of MASS destruction, and, that is why He abhors it all.

When God commanded Saul to destroy all of the Amalekites, how much innocent blood did he command them to destroy? None. But all were killed. IOW, they weren't innocent.

Same with Joshua and how many folks he killed. Like the verses I quoted above, he killed those in the city.


Have a good say, I am not going to say anymore in this thread.

That will be fine.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 10:22 PM
TO THE LAWS, not the greed, lust and PRIDE.

Agreed.


War is not a law, for crying out loud.

It can be and there can be a just war. God commanded may wars in the past. They were all just.


It is a matter of the heart.

The bible says it only comes from lust.

Does God want us to follow the ways of lust?

Of course not. But Joshua and Saul weren't full of lust. They were just to do as God commanded.



Gotta get out of here, it is getting tooo weird.

OK.

theleast
Jun 24th 2008, 10:24 PM
Rom 13:1

13 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
NASB

Be in subjection, submit... same thing.

1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Hmm...my KJV gives it a slightly different context it seems. ;)

But that being said...I guess that the German government during the holocaust was doing no wrong then in asking their citizens to turn out Jews for the concentration camps, and you would follow that law willingly and help to realize the "final solution?" That was a government commiting that act yes? Set up by God to fulfill the will of God?

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 10:34 PM
Quote:
It is an abomination to the Lord to shed innocent blood.

If it was an abomination then, it is now...

Agreed. But not all in war are innocent.

I just want to make one more point.

You seem to overlook my good points.

My statement stands as I wrote it. There is NO wars that do not shed INNOCENT BLOOD..especially THIS day and age...with the weapons of mass destruction, etc.

So what if God allowed wars in times of old....that of itself does not mean it was HIS WILL. He allowed men to have SEVERAL WIVES< too....that does not mean that God willed it that way, or would want men to do that.

Wars are the result of nothing more than human ERROR.

No one can argue that, for we all know that in the REALITY of things, God hates war.

That is the message I have tried to convey...but, everyone keeps overlooking.

I CHOOSE to follow HIS ways, not mans, or what this world needs to do due to it's LACK of love for it's enemies.

If we lived in a perfect world, which someday we will, war will cease, and that IS THE ULTIMATE WILL OF GOD< and I do not think anyone could argue with that, unless of course, they were fools.

So, with that said, why not just CHOOSE to be in the WILL OF GOD now, instead of playing with the world?

Thats all.

bye now.

peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 10:36 PM
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Hmm...my KJV gives it a slightly different context it seems. ;)

But that being said...I guess that the German government during the holocaust was doing no wrong then in asking their citizens to turn out Jews for the concentration camps, and you would follow that law willingly and help to realize the "final solution?" That was a government commiting that act yes? Set up by God to fulfill the will of God?

Being subject, submissive, under subjection same thing.

But as to your point, it is a valid one! We learn from Daniel that when government crosses the line and tells us to sin, we do not do so. The holocaust was clearly sinful and would be wrong for anyone to participate in. As someone showed above, the shedding of innocent blood is wrong.

However, when government asks me to go to war against those that have shed innocent blood, I rightly recognize them as having been set up by God for just such a purpose. I submit to them then because God set it up that way and they are to carry out his will in such matters.

EarlyCall
Jun 24th 2008, 10:37 PM
"I wasn't aware the OT was nothing more than laws. Did you happen to notice anything at all in the OT that wasn't about the laws? "
Don t know what u r on about?

Sure. I could have been clear here. There is much more to the OT than laws. You mentioned we are not under the old covenant if I am not mistaken. But the OT is more than just the old covenant. And it speaks to the issue of war. And it doesn't speak to it as you do.

My point then is this: You contradict the OT when it comes to war. Your use of scripture is out of context. But I guess that will come down to a matter of opinion.

"What do you make of the government wielding the sword? At the time Paul spoke these words the Roman government was in charge and they carried and used the sword. What did they use it for?"
Please note: in Rom 13, where it speaks of the sword, before 13, comes 12.

I don't need to refer to chapter twelve or anything else. The scripture I've referred to is clear enough.

There God tells us how to respond to a war situation.
The issue we are discussing here is war. if u have comments saying we should fight a war, then let me know, but I’m no expert in the sword dept.
remember too, what Jesus commands stands firm, no matter what any government says!

Yes, we should fight wars when it is required. What Jesus said wasn't in conflict with the government. You claim it is. That then is your opinion.


"Can you tell me why Jesus didn't tell the Centurion to leave the military but instead spoke so highly of his faith? Do you think Jesus missed a perfect opportunity to guide this man out of sin into righteous living? "
I do not know this centurion, or how he lived, and both of us can only presume how he lived.

Well, it is not a difficult thing to know how they lived. They fought in wars and ordered others into war and ordered others to kill in battle. This is no mystery. It's history. It's fact. And Jesus well knew this too.

Jesus was making an example of his faith, and let us not try and put words in here that do not exist!

I'm not adding any words. I asked you why you thought Jesus didn't say anything about it. It would have been a great opportunity to tell the centurion he should not be in the military because ti was wrong. Seems to me Jesus took many opportunities to point out wrongs. Why not this time if it was wrong?

Perhaps after pentecost, the centurion did join the church, and lived a holy life, we do not know.

Didn't you just a moment ago suggest we should not put in words that do not exist? Doesn't matter. We don't have to guess of a later time. We have the time I spoke of.

There were others who wanted to follow Jesus immediately, that Jesus disallowed.
I guess you need to ask Him yourself

"Another such occasion involved Peter. God spoke to Peter but never said anything about having Peter tell the man to get out of the military. Just another missed opportunity?"

You'll find it in Acts. God told Peter to go to Cornelius' house. He was a centurion. Another great opportunity for God to tell a man in the military that it was wrong. But instead God sent Peter there to preach the gospel. Why do you suppose God passed up such great opportunities as these?

Where?

"Back to the OT for a moment. When God commanded the Jews to fight, including David and from the very beginning, what OT law was God using to make the command? Please be specific".
Now we are under the new covenant .God changed"an eye for an eye".see matt5, luke6.

That was my point originally. We are not talking about the laws and rules and regulations of the OT covenant. War does not enter into that. And an eye for an eye has nothing to do with war either.


"Also, where in the NT did God speak specifically to the issue of war - as in where did He specifically mention war? Isn't war important enough to be mentioned specifically and directly?"

Try as much as you like, but you cannot get away from Jesus command. Love your enemy is directly
a reference to war. If you find that by killing your enemy , you are loving him/her, you probably will need to see the King.

The whole thing here hinges on one thing only: everything you refer to has only to do with individuals and not governments. Now this has been mentioned by at least one other in this thread prior to this.

So you have your mind set and that's fine. Believe this as you will. I see no problem with it. There are people who are conscientious objectors and that is fine. But I don't agree with you.

I would need someone to explain to me how God commanding David and many others to kill in war was right then but wrong now - and tell me how God isn't wrong for what He did back then. The covenant may have changed, but I've read that God does not change.

So was God wrong in the OT? Do you understand my question?

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 10:43 PM
I just want to make one more point.

Hard not to come back isn't it? ;)


You seem to overlook my good points.

I see the points and refute them. Scripturally.


My statement stands as I wrote it. There is NO wars that do not shed INNOCENT BLOOD..especially THIS day and age...with the weapons of mass destruction, etc.

And I pointed out wars where innocent blood was not shed. For instance, God told Saul to wipe out an entire nation. Did God give Saul a command to shed innocent blood? Nope.


So what if God allowed wars in times of old....that of itself does not mean it was HIS WILL. He allowed men to have SEVERAL WIVES< too....that does not mean that God willed it that way, or would want men to do that.

He didn't just allow it. He COMMANDED it. Big difference. He willed it. He WANTED it to happen. He even swore to war against Amalek every generation.


Wars are the result of nothing more than human ERROR.

I can agree with that. But I do not agree that both sides are in error. Clearly Saul and Joshua were not in error when they went to war. They were being obedient. Saul was disobedient when he did not carry out God's command to destroy all of the Amalekites.


No one can argue that, for we all know that in the REALITY of things, God hates war.

He hates sin. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. But he commands war to occur. That we know and have it in scripture.


That is the message I have tried to convey...but, everyone keeps overlooking.

And some overlook that God actually willed and commanded war to occur.;)


I CHOOSE to follow HIS ways, not mans, or what this world needs to do due to it's LACK of love for it's enemies.

One is to love his enemies. But if they are committing evil, Government should kill them for it. That's God's intention for government.


If we lived in a perfect world, which someday we will, war will cease, and that IS THE ULTIMATE WILL OF GOD< and I do not think anyone could argue with that, unless of course, they were fools.

Agreed. If there were no evil men, then the need for government to wield the sword of God and his vengeance would be gone. But we don't live in a perfect world so the need to wield the sword of God's wrath still exist. Romans 13 explains it well.


So, with that said, why not just CHOOSE to be in the WILL OF GOD now, instead of playing with the world?

Government is not the world. It was established by God to control evil men through forceful means if necessary.


Thats all.

bye now.

OK.

EarlyCall
Jun 24th 2008, 10:51 PM
Quote:
It is an abomination to the Lord to shed innocent blood.

If it was an abomination then, it is now...


I just want to make one more point.

You seem to overlook my good points.

My statement stands as I wrote it. There is NO wars that do not shed INNOCENT BLOOD..especially THIS day and age...with the weapons of mass destruction, etc.

So what if God allowed wars in times of old....that of itself does not mean it was HIS WILL. He allowed men to have SEVERAL WIVES< too....that does not mean that God willed it that way, or would want men to do that.

Wars are the result of nothing more than human ERROR.

No one can argue that, for we all know that in the REALITY of things, God hates war.

That is the message I have tried to convey...but, everyone keeps overlooking.

I CHOOSE to follow HIS ways, not mans, or what this world needs to do due to it's LACK of love for it's enemies.

If we lived in a perfect world, which someday we will, war will cease, and that IS THE ULTIMATE WILL OF GOD< and I do not think anyone could argue with that, unless of course, they were fools.

So, with that said, why not just CHOOSE to be in the WILL OF GOD now, instead of playing with the world?

Thats all.

bye now.

peaceandlove,

janet

What of the battles God commanded in which innocents died? Would their blood ultimately then be on God since He commanded the battle be fought?

You are mistaken and in error to claim God allowed some wars in the OT. Whether He allowed some or not means nothing. We are not debating that.

For a fact God commanded them. In fact, God led even the wicked sometimes to wage war on the Jews. God took the credit for this. It is in His word. I'm not making it up.

Now, how do you explain God commanding wars?

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 10:51 PM
I wish I could get out of here, lol.....:D


I have to ask this.


Being subject, submissive, under subjection same thing.

But as to your point, it is a valid one! We learn from Daniel that when government crosses the line and tells us to sin, we do not do so. The holocaust was clearly sinful and would be wrong for anyone to participate in. As someone showed above, the shedding of innocent blood is wrong.

However, when government asks me to go to war against those that have shed innocent blood, I rightly recognize them as having been set up by God for just such a purpose. I submit to them then because God set it up that way and they are to carry out his will in such matters.So, you don't have any problem with shedding MORE innocent blood, to keep other innocent blood that was shed, through the vengeance of men?

That is what is crazy to me..sounds like you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth....or are you denying that innocent blood is shed in wars today, any war?

Good grief, do you watch the news. Need I go get numbers and copy and paste them?

That which ends in innocent blood, cannot be condoned, in my mind.

I suppose when the innocent muslim children and woman go before God, He will say, "Oh well, your blood is not sooo innocent?"...I don't think that is the way to think.

There are no wars where innocent blood is not shed, and those whom think there are must have blinders on.

I have dealt with men whom have had to live with the nightmares of the children they saw laying dead on the streets, and the innocent woman whom have been murderered/raped. I did home health for years, and set at the bedsides of many men whom could not get the awful images out of their heads, and their HEARTS, and could not even find peace with the guilt they felt. I believe Jesus when He said, it is all in vain.

I do not think that God is a respector of persons wherein He says, "Go kill this people, for they have shed innocent blood, and then turns right around and causes you do the same. It is a very wrong agenda, in mho.

Yet, God will have the last word on the matter no matter what we individually think..so I leave it for Him to muddle through....and, I would not take a position, that would say, YES, He does under ALL circumstances. There is no such thing as a just war, this day and age, with the weapons of mass destruction..and all...those whom think there are, need to rethink a thing or two...when, the blood of those innocent woman and children are on your hands, God says you will answer for it.

Not in a way where one would lose one's salvation, etc...but, your heart will have to deal with the guilt, and I am here to tell you that it is not a easy row to hoe...but, of course, we can close our eyes to the truth of the matter, eh?


peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 11:00 PM
What of the battles God commanded in which innocents died? Would their blood ultimately then be on God since He commanded the battle be fought?

You are mistaken and in error to claim God allowed some wars in the OT. Whether He allowed some or not means nothing. We are not debating that.

For a fact God commanded them. In fact, God led even the wicked sometimes to wage war on the Jews. God took the credit for this. It is in His word. I'm not making it up.

Now, how do you explain God commanding wars?

I have already explained this...God uses earthly nations to correct other earthly nations. We are not a part of a "earthly nation", we are of HIS NATION, that is to be a light to the REST.

When that light has nothing left to shine, and we do as they do, then the salt has no more saltiness.

People can deny that God hates war, and they can deny why.

I won't be partaking.

When Jesus comes, the world will also fight Him....and war against Him.

It will be the nations gathered together in war that will do this...would you want to be among them?

I don't have anything else to add to this thread.

peaceandlove,

janet

theleast
Jun 24th 2008, 11:06 PM
Being subject, submissive, under subjection same thing.

But as to your point, it is a valid one! We learn from Daniel that when government crosses the line and tells us to sin, we do not do so. The holocaust was clearly sinful and would be wrong for anyone to participate in. As someone showed above, the shedding of innocent blood is wrong.

However, when government asks me to go to war against those that have shed innocent blood, I rightly recognize them as having been set up by God for just such a purpose. I submit to them then because God set it up that way and they are to carry out his will in such matters.

And who decides what blood is innocent? Only God is the judge.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 11:11 PM
I wish I could get out of here, lol.....:D

You can leave at any time.


So, you don't have any problem with shedding MORE innocent blood, to keep other innocent blood that was shed, through the vengeance of men?

Answer me this, of the Amalekites that God told Saul to kill, how many of them were innocent?


That is what is crazy to me..sounds like you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth....or are you denying that innocent blood is shed in wars today, any war?

How much innocent blood did Joshua shed when he destroyed all those that refused to leave in Canaan?

Answer me those two questions, and I will give you an opinion.


Good grief, do you watch the news. Need I go get numbers and copy and paste them?

Yep. But first, answer the questions above and then we'll move into innocent blood. Has your argument has now shifted from no war at all to only war that doesn't shed innocent blood?


That which ends in innocent blood, cannot be condoned, in my mind.

I suppose when the innocent muslim children and woman go before God, He will say, "Oh well, your blood is not sooo innocent?"...I don't think that is the way to think.

There are no wars where innocent blood is not shed, and those whom think there are must have blinders on.

OK, now I have to ask again, When Saul was commanded by God to destroy ALL of the Amalekites, was that innocent blood? Or what about Joshua?


I have dealt with men whom have had to live with the nightmares of the children they saw laying dead on the streets, and the innocent woman whom have been murderered/raped. I did home health for years, and set at the bedsides of many men whom could not get the awful images out of their heads, and their HEARTS, and could not even find peace with the guilt they felt. I believe Jesus when He said, it is all in vain.

Indeed. Violence has it's price. Unfortunately war is part of living in an evil world. Thank God for establishing governments that will protect me from the evil that others in the world put on their citizens.


I do not think that God is a respector of persons wherein He says, "Go kill this people, for they have shed innocent blood, and then turns right around and causes you do the same. It is a very wrong agenda, in mho.

You keep harping on innocent blood but what about Joshua and Saul. When God told Saul to wipe out the entire nation, did he command the shedding of innocent blood?


Not in a way where one would lose one's salvation, etc...but, your heart will have to deal with the guilt, and I am here to tell you that it is not a easy row to hoe...but, of course, we can close our eyes to the truth of the matter, eh?

Indeed! Many do turn a blind eye to the truth.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 11:13 PM
And who decides what blood is innocent? Only God is the judge.

If that were the case, then God would not have given government the right to shed blood. He established a means in which to determine who was innocent and who was not.

It would be evil of government and against God's direct command if they didn't not protect those innocents under their care and authority from evil doers.

ProDeo
Jun 24th 2008, 11:15 PM
yes, i would say using force is wrong. please if u r thinking bout becoming a cop, please don t!

On the other hand, if cops with force free you, your wife and children from a kidnapper wouldn't you not be thankful they (the cops) saved your life and the lives of your family? Isn't that not a bit hypocritical?

Furthermore, if you believe that violence is not allowed in any hypothetical case then better check all the hypothetical cases people offer you here and have a clear point of view on all. As our Lord said, "sit down first and calculate the costs" (Luke 14:28).

Blessings,

Ed

theleast
Jun 24th 2008, 11:26 PM
If that were the case, then God would not have given government the right to shed blood. He established a means in which to determine who was innocent and who was not.

It would be evil of government and against God's direct command if they didn't not protect those innocents under their care and authority from evil doers.

Didn't the ark of the covenent go before the Jew's into war? That means God was with them.

And who is God with today? Where is the ark of the covenent?

:hmm:

fewarechosen
Jun 24th 2008, 11:29 PM
so when was someone who had the holy spirit ever told to go wage war in the flesh ?

i see lots of quotes about god giving orders to go to war,

do you really think god is coming to todays leaders like he was back then ? and saying go wage war ?

such faith in human governments

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 11:30 PM
Didn't the ark of the covenent go before the Jew's into war? That means God was with them.

And who is God with today? Where is the ark of the covenent?

:hmm:

Not always. It did with Joshua. And today, the ark of the covenant is inside us. We have clear scripture in Romans 13 about how our government is to wield the sword of God against evil men. When evil men do violence, government's role is to wield God's wrath upon them. Nothing will change the scriptures no matter how bad one might wish it to be changed.

jewel4Christ
Jun 24th 2008, 11:30 PM
You can leave at any time.



Answer me this, of the Amalekites that God told Saul to kill, how many of them were innocent?



How much innocent blood did Joshua shed when he destroyed all those that refused to leave in Canaan?

Answer me those two questions, and I will give you an opinion.



Yep. But first, answer the questions above and then we'll move into innocent blood. Has your argument has now shifted from no war at all to only war that doesn't shed innocent blood?



OK, now I have to ask again, When Saul was commanded by God to destroy ALL of the Amalekites, was that innocent blood? Or what about Joshua?



Indeed. Violence has it's price. Unfortunately war is part of living in an evil world. Thank God for establishing governments that will protect me from the evil that others in the world put on their citizens.



You keep harping on innocent blood but what about Joshua and Saul. When God told Saul to wipe out the entire nation, did he command the shedding of innocent blood?



Indeed! Many do turn a blind eye to the truth.

When God commanded it in the old covenant, as you say, the people were innocent in more ways than one. They as a whole had not had salvation offered them, for the day of salvation had not YET come, to all back then...as in all nations having heard the gospel message. That is why, God could allow it then, and not now. When you kill the innocent today, you have snuffed out their chance..who are you to say when a person might repent and believe the gospel?

Jesus said it would be more tolerable on the day of judgement for "some", for that reason. I don't care to continue this discussion. We are coming at this from two very different angles. I follow the teachings of the NEW covenant, and do not try to put the old in a understanding by the old, but by the NEW.

When innocent woman and children and, even men are killed in wars today, it is men that take them out....there is such a thing as removing someone before the Lord has had HIS time to deal with them each individually...and, I think that has alot to do with WHY God commands us to NOW beat our swords into plowshares.

The old covenant peoples will be raised, and judged by the innocence that was during that time, for it is written, God winked at their guilt, but NOW demands all men everywhere to repent...but, we as God's people do not have a right to decide when ANY person has had sufficient time to do that. Go ahead and have your wars, and etc...just remember that what you are doing is going against, God's timing for men today, when you do end a life before God decides it is time...this side of the NEW covenant.

I have answered your questions.
I won't be back to this thread, to answer anymore.

I simply cannot deal with a mindset that thinks it is ok for them to kill innocents, because God somehow overlooks it.

Sorry, I do not agree.

The bible makes it plain that there is a time for war, but, for christians, this side of the new covenant, that time has ceased. If you disagree, that is fine..but, I cannot stand the thought..and, I am only being honest and sincere with you about it...do not take it personally. Wrong doing is wrong doing, and we all do it, but that does not mean that you think it is ok.

bye now.

peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 11:31 PM
so when was someone who had the holy spirit ever told to go wage war in the flesh ?

i see lots of quotes about god giving orders to go to war,

do you really think god is coming to todays leaders like he was back then ? and saying go wage war ?

such faith in human governments

Samson. God came upon him and he slew a thousand Philistines with a bone. In other words, he was using a weapon and strength from the Lord. Debra also went to war at the command of God. Saul took an army.

How many examples do you want where God commanded someone to go to war and they used weapons?

And yes I do think God does that today. He gave clear orders in Romans 13. It's not faith in men. It's faith in the character of God knowing that he does not change. I trust him to move as he has always moved.

ProDeo
Jun 24th 2008, 11:31 PM
please read matt5 and luke 6.

THERE HAS BEEN A CHANGE.
no more eye4 an eye,
NO MORE!!!!!

Acts 5: Who killed Ananias and Sapphira ?

Definitely a NT story.

Ed

EarlyCall
Jun 24th 2008, 11:38 PM
I have already explained this...God uses earthly nations to correct other earthly nations. We are not a part of a "earthly nation", we are of HIS NATION, that is to be a light to the REST.

Yes, but we also live in this world. God never intended us not to. He spoke to that. But a question if I may. What excuse do you give to God for using nations to kill people? After all, nations do not exist unless they consist of people. So in fact God is using some people to correct other people through death and destruction. How does God escape your condemnation of war? Because He is God? I have to admit that might do it, but I have to question it when He drags people into it. I mean I have to question it when I use your reasoning. How would you explain it?

When that light has nothing left to shine, and we do as they do, then the salt has no more saltiness.

People can deny that God hates war, and they can deny why.

I won't be partaking.

When Jesus comes, the world will also fight Him....and war against Him.

It will be the nations gathered together in war that will do this...would you want to be among them?

Well, I honestly miss the point here.

I don't have anything else to add to this thread.

peaceandlove,

janet

Oh I'm sure God does hate war. But God never denies the reality of this world. I have no problem with you not partaking of war. I am however grateful to God that many have done so. That is why you can still worship God freely in this nation. I think it terribly wrong to claim otherwise. That would be my opinion. And I have to think that would be reality. I think history would back me up on this point.

Brother Mark
Jun 24th 2008, 11:39 PM
When God commanded it in the old covenant, as you say, the people were innocent in more ways than one. They as a whole had not had salvation offered them, for the say of salvation had not come, to all back then. That is why, God could allow it then, and not now. When you kill the innocent today, you have snuffed out their chance..who are you to say when a person might repent and believe the gospel?

So you are saying that God commanded the killing of innocent blood? Romans 1 says that all men have been offered the gospel and it was written before we had a NT bible.


Jesus said it would be more tolerable on the day of judgement for "some", for that reason. I don't care to continue this discussion. We are coming at this from two very different angles. I follow the teachings of the NEW covenant, and do not try to put the old in a understanding by the old, but by the NEW.

The new covenant is wonderful! But it doesn't change God's character. From his character he has ordered war in the past. He will war again in the future.


When innocent woman and children and, even men are killed in wars today, it is men that take them out....there is such a thing as removing someone before the Lord has had HIS time to deal with them each individually.

God will not hold men guiltless. While men are alive, God can deal with them. When they are dead, you are right. Many remove themselves from life before their time. However, you still avoid the innocent question. You answer it from an angle but not fully.

Did God command the killing of innocent people when he told Saul to kill all the Amalekites?


The old covenant peoples will be raised, and judged by the innocence that was during that time, for it is written, God winked at their guilt, but NOW demands all men everywhere to repent. Go ahead and have your wars, and etc...just remember that what you are doing is going against, God's timing for men today, when you do end a life before God decides it is time.

He winked at it but still held them accountable. One thing you are right in... the amount of light one has also determines the severity of the judgment.


I have answered your questions.

Not clearly. It's a simple yes or no question. Did God command Saul to kill innocent people?


I won't be back to this thread, to answer anymore.

OK. You keep saying that. We'll see.


I simply cannot deal with a mindset that thinks it is ok for them to kill innocents, because God somehow overlooks it.

No one has said it's OK to kill innocents.


The bible makes it plain that there is a time for war, but, for christians, this side of the new covenant, that time has ceased. If you disagree, that is fine..but, I cannot stand the thought..and, I am only being honest and sincere with you about it...do not take it personally. Wrong doing is wrong doing, and we all do it, but that does not mean that you think it is ok.

Oh, I don't take it personally. Thank God he raises up men that will stand against the Hitlers of this world. He put government in action for just such men. He is wise. He knew what he was doing. He's done it from Noah's time and will continue to do so.

Paul_born_again
Jun 24th 2008, 11:45 PM
I briefly skimmed through the topic, so I don't know if this was already brought up.

Luke 7:6-10
7 Then Jesus went with them. And when He was already not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to Him, saying to Him, “Lord, do not trouble Yourself, for I am not worthy that You should enter under my roof. 7 Therefore I did not even think myself worthy to come to You. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I also am a man placed under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
9 When Jesus heard these things, He marveled at him, and turned around and said to the crowd that followed Him, “I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!” 10 And those who were sent, returning to the house, found the servant well who had been sick.

If Jesus is so against soldiers/police/etc... as some people in this thread have said, why did he commend this soldier for having more faith than anyone else in Israel? This time (or any of the other times that Jesus is close to soldiers) would have been the perfect opportunity to say that we should not be soldiers/police etc.. But He didn't.

fewarechosen
Jun 25th 2008, 12:11 AM
i didnt see anyone say god was against cops or soldiers or anything.

but it will all be revealed in time, gods gonna smash all these governments because they all stray-- for as it is written all the kings fornicate with the whore. so dont think your government will escape all have strayed from gods will.

so some would claim to follow nations and kings that are fornicators. that is their choice.

christ is always our example -- he never waged war while in the flesh--- so that is your example.

you can deny it you can come up with whatever excuse you want --but at the end of the day when christ was here he killed no one -- so neither should we.


his saints will know his will for it is written in their hearts

and so it will continue

EarlyCall
Jun 25th 2008, 12:16 AM
I briefly skimmed through the topic, so I don't know if this was already brought up.

Luke 7:6-10
7 Then Jesus went with them. And when He was already not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to Him, saying to Him, “Lord, do not trouble Yourself, for I am not worthy that You should enter under my roof. 7 Therefore I did not even think myself worthy to come to You. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I also am a man placed under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
9 When Jesus heard these things, He marveled at him, and turned around and said to the crowd that followed Him, “I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!” 10 And those who were sent, returning to the house, found the servant well who had been sick.

If Jesus is so against soldiers/police/etc... as some people in this thread have said, why did he commend this soldier for having more faith than anyone else in Israel? This time (or any of the other times that Jesus is close to soldiers) would have been the perfect opportunity to say that we should not be soldiers/police etc.. But He didn't.

Yes, I raised this earlier and this same point has been raised in other threads too by others. So far, no one to my knowledge has been able to answer it.

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 12:20 AM
i didnt see anyone say god was against cops or soldiers or anything.

but it will all be revealed in time, gods gonna smash all these governments because they all stray-- for as it is written all the kings fornicate with the whore. so dont think your government will escape all have strayed from gods will.

so some would claim to follow nations and kings that are fornicators. that is their choice.

christ is always our example -- he never waged war while in the flesh--- so that is your example.

you can deny it you can come up with whatever excuse you want --but at the end of the day when christ was here he killed no one -- so neither should we.

his saints will know his will for it is written in their hearts

and so it will continue

No one is saying to worship government. God has his children as part of governments in the OT and NT.

God went to war in both OT and NT.

Jesus is our example as individual believers. And guess what? He was a common man and not in politics or government. That wasn't his particular calling. He is our example for how to live as individuals. He gave us instruction on how to function as a government in both the OT and the NT.

dan
Jun 25th 2008, 12:21 AM
though i do not know all and understand all, i do have an opinion, and i believe God needs men and woman to stand by their convictions, not being luke warm- as thousands are killed in the name of our Lord and King

1 Tim 6:3,4
tells us of the supremacy of Christs teaching.
God tells us that anyone who teaches contrary to His teaching is conceited and understands nothing.
Hence i take the teaching of Christ and the new testament as above all.

to really to as basic as possible;
let's look at Christs reaching, as He said it in the English language.

Matt 5:39
"Do not resist an evil person."

Matt 5:44
"Love your enemies."

In Romans, God says before telling us to submit to the governing authorities.

Rom12:14
"Bless those who persecute..."

Rom12:17
"Never pay back evil for evil."

Rom12:20
"If your enemy is hungry , feed him, and if he is thirsty give him a drink."

NO WHERE EVER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ARE WE TOLD TO FIGHT A PHYSICAL WAR.

...That Jesus and His Followers said these things. BUT, none of these were in reference to war.

These are in reference to wars, both great and small:

MT 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Subheading A: The Words Of God The Father On War;

EX 15:3 Jehovah is a man of war: Jehovah is his name.

EX 20:13 Thou shalt not murder.

EX 20:20 And Moses said to the people, Have no fear: for God has come to put you to the test, so that fearing him you may be kept from sin. (Bible In Basic English)

GEN 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
GEN 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

NUM 32:20 And Moses said to them: If you do what you promise, go on well appointed for war before the Lord:
NUM 32:21 And let every fighting man pass over the Jordan, until the Lord overthrow his enemies :
NUM 32:22 And all the land be brought under him, then shall you be blameless before the Lord and before Israel, and you shall obtain the countries that you desire, before the Lord.
NUM 32:23 But if you do not what you say, no man can doubt but you sin against God: and know ye, that your sin shall overtake you.

NUM 35:31 You shall not take money of him that is guilty of blood, but he shall die forthwith.
NUM 35:32 The banished and fugitives before the death of the high priest may by no means return into their own cities.
NUM 35:33 Defile not the land of your habitation, which is stained with the blood of the innocent: neither can it otherwise be expiated, but by his blood that hath shed the blood of another.
NUM 35:34 And thus shall your possession he cleansed, myself abiding with you. For I am the Lord that dwell among the children of Israel.

DEUT 28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
DEUT 28:59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, [even] great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
DEUT 28:60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.
DEUT 28:61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which [is] not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
DEUT 28:62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God.
DEUT 28:63 And it shall come to pass, [that] as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
DEUT 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, [even] wood and stone.

PROV 20:18 [Every] purpose is established by counsel: and with good advice make war.

PROV 24:6 For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors [there is] safety.

ECCLES 3:1 To every [thing there is] a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
ECCLES 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up [that which is] planted;
ECCLES 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
ECCLES 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
ECCLES 3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
ECCLES 3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
ECCLES 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
ECCLES 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

JER 8:11 For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.

DAN 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
DAN 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
DAN 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
DAN 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

IS 42:24 Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law.

IS 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
IS 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
IS 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
IS 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

IS 65:11 But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
IS 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
IS 65:13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:
IS 65:14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

AMOS 9:10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.

ZECH 13:3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
ZECH 13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
ZECH 13:5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
ZECH 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
ZECH 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
ZECH 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.


And now, to continue with Jesus' Words Concerning War:

MT 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

MT 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Doing the Will Of The Father is The Main Attribute of those gaining Heaven.

MT 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [Him].

If God The Father has not been revealed to you as The Author Of All Righteousness by The Son, I would reassess my claim to Righteousness and an Indwelling Holy Spirit. Everything in the Bible is there for a purpose. Find, if you can, the purpose in all of it!:idea:

MT 15:3 And in answer he said to them, Why do you, yourselves, go against the word of God on account of the teaching which has been handed down to you?

God says to make war under some circumstances, and who are we to go against it?

MT 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
MT 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
MT 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
MT 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
MT 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

How can you say you love God if you do not choose as He Would?

MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.:idea:

MK 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
MK 4:25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

LK 3:14 And soldiers also asked him, saying, And we, what must we do? And he said unto them, Extort from no man by violence, neither accuse `any one' wrongfully; and be content with your wages.(The Bible In Basic English):o

LK 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

LK 11:21 When a strong man ARMED:o keepeth his court, those things are in peace which he possesseth.

LK 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
LK 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things [which belong] unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
LK 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
LK 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

LK 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
LK 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.:o

Have we all bought our swords? Of all the weapons available today, I believe that the handgun is most likely to be considered the modern replacement for the sword.

(Where's the emoticon for "lead balloons" when you need it?:rofl:)

REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear:
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

LK 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things [which belong] unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. ;)

EarlyCall
Jun 25th 2008, 12:24 AM
i didnt see anyone say god was against cops or soldiers or anything.

but it will all be revealed in time, gods gonna smash all these governments because they all stray-- for as it is written all the kings fornicate with the whore. so dont think your government will escape all have strayed from gods will.

so some would claim to follow nations and kings that are fornicators. that is their choice.

christ is always our example -- he never waged war while in the flesh--- so that is your example.

you can deny it you can come up with whatever excuse you want --but at the end of the day when christ was here he killed no one -- so neither should we.


his saints will know his will for it is written in their hearts

and so it will continue

Could you give some scripture please that actually uses the word war? Any scripture that actually refers to it - as in mentions it? I'd appreciate that.

As for Christ not killing while here on earth... I'm assuming you mean He is our example and since He didn't kill, neither should we. Am I right in assuming that? If so, well, He died on a cross too. You planning on living out that example?

Also, when Christ returns He will be doing a lot of killing. Should we start killing some people then? I mean if we are to follow His example and all.

fewarechosen
Jun 25th 2008, 12:34 AM
If so, well, He died on a cross too. You planning on living out that example?
---------------------------------------------

if he wills it



Also, when Christ returns He will be doing a lot of killing. Should we start killing some people then? I mean if we are to follow His example and all
-----------------------------------------------------------
dont you know the saints will be following him on their horses when he comes to wage war ?

evrgreenjhawk
Jun 25th 2008, 12:43 AM
Sure wish my garden would grow quick as this thread :lol:

Is Janet really gone? :rofl:

Glad to see it stayed civil,:hug: enjoyed the read.

davidandme
Jun 25th 2008, 12:51 AM
Does that mean that you have to take a beating and do nothing about it?

fewarechosen
Jun 25th 2008, 12:52 AM
Does that mean that you have to take a beating and do nothing about it?

we have a perfect example of that

what did christ do when he took a beating ?

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 01:03 AM
Does that mean that you have to take a beating and do nothing about it?

Turn the other cheek. But that's what authority is for. Call the cops and let them deal with it. If your family is in danger, you are the authority and have been granted that authority by God and government to protect them.

davidandme
Jun 25th 2008, 01:07 AM
What if your life is in danger and you don't have the time to call the police?

theleast
Jun 25th 2008, 01:08 AM
As for Christ not killing while here on earth... I'm assuming you mean He is our example and since He didn't kill, neither should we. Am I right in assuming that? If so, well, He died on a cross too. You planning on living out that example?

Also, when Christ returns He will be doing a lot of killing. Should we start killing some people then? I mean if we are to follow His example and all.

If God wants me to die on a cross then I will do his will.

In so doing I would earn my right to return with Christ.

theleast
Jun 25th 2008, 01:09 AM
What if your life is in danger and you don't have the time to call the police?

Then follow what the Spirit leads you to do.

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 01:09 AM
What if your life is in danger and you don't have the time to call the police?

Run like Jesus did at times. But it's hard to get around the scripture that says "Turn the other cheek and do not resist evil" when it comes to the individual.

Thaddaeus
Jun 25th 2008, 01:20 AM
though i do not know all and understand all, i do have an opinion, and i believe God needs men and woman to stand by their convictions, not being luke warm- as thousands are killed in the name of our Lord and King

1 Tim 6:3,4
tells us of the supremacy of Christs teaching.
God tells us that anyone who teaches contrary to His teaching is conceited and understands nothing.
Hence i take the teaching of Christ and the new testament as above all.

to really to as basic as possible;
let's look at Christs reaching, as He said it in the English language.

Matt 5:39
"Do not resist an evil person."

Matt 5:44
"Love your enemies."

In Romans, God says before telling us to submit to the governing authorities.

Rom12:14
"Bless those who persecute..."

Rom12:17
"Never pay back evil for evil."

Rom12:20
"If your enemy is hungry , feed him, and if he is thirsty give him a drink."

NO WHERE EVER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ARE WE TOLD TO FIGHT A PHYSICAL WAR.
everyword of God not just the ones we want to live by what about when Jesus said Lu 22:36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

theleast
Jun 25th 2008, 01:21 AM
everyword of God not just the ones we want to live by what about when Jesus said Lu 22:36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

And what kind of sword do you think Christ was advising us to buy?

evrgreenjhawk
Jun 25th 2008, 01:36 AM
we have a perfect example of that

what did christ do when he took a beating ?

Not an example I think you can follow with the same results ;)

evrgreenjhawk
Jun 25th 2008, 01:38 AM
Turn the other cheek. But that's what authority is for. Call the cops and let them deal with it. If your family is in danger, you are the authority and have been granted that authority by God and government to protect them.

Absolutely! If you are ill do you pray alone or use the gifts God has given to medical folk?

fewarechosen
Jun 25th 2008, 01:39 AM
Not an example I think you can follow with the same results ;)

who said it would have the same results ?

but none the less its what your supposed to do


people like to rationalize their way away from walking as christ did

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 01:44 AM
who said it would have the same results ?

but none the less its what your supposed to do

people like to rationalize their way away from walking as christ did

No one is doing that in this thread. People are showing the difference between walking like Christ as an individual and carrying out our duties as government officials.

God laid out government responsibilities in scripture.

fewarechosen
Jun 25th 2008, 01:52 AM
No one is doing that in this thread. People are showing the difference between walking like Christ as an individual and carrying out our duties as government officials.

God laid out government responsibilities in scripture.


its interesting that you think there is a difference between walking as christ as an individual and carrying out government duties.

there is no difference at all

andrewanderson
Jun 25th 2008, 01:56 AM
And what kind of sword do you think Christ was advising us to buy?

a 9mm one :confused

andrewanderson
Jun 25th 2008, 01:57 AM
Oh...wait...my mistake...that's a gun caliber.

I suppose it will further complicate thing if I try to apply the sword thing to contemporary society. :)

EarlyCall
Jun 25th 2008, 02:42 AM
If so, well, He died on a cross too. You planning on living out that example?
---------------------------------------------

if he wills it



Also, when Christ returns He will be doing a lot of killing. Should we start killing some people then? I mean if we are to follow His example and all
-----------------------------------------------------------
dont you know the saints will be following him on their horses when he comes to wage war ?

Let me see if I follow the logic. In the OT under the old covenant, it was ok to wage war. Now it is no longer ok to wage war because it is the NT and a new covenant. When Christ returns it will once again be ok to wage war. What covenant will that be?

In short then, it was ok, now it isn't but later it will be. Makes perfect sense.

Saved7
Jun 25th 2008, 03:38 AM
Jesus plainly said
Matt 5:39
"Do not resist an evil person."

Matt 5:44
"Love your enemies."

now if you decide to go about war in the flesh,or support war in the flesh, do so, but DO NOT expect to be blessed by God in this.
!

So then....if Russia starts bombing us, and tries to take over our land, in turn removing our freedom of religion, should we then just lay down and let them? Should we not defend our land? Would you let some stranger come into your home, kill your family and kick you out into the streets? Or would you fight to protect what is yours? Do you spose God would curse you for defending your loved ones and your home? Or would he curse you for just letting the enemy come and ravish a child that is in your care?
Just something to think about.:hmm:

fewarechosen
Jun 25th 2008, 03:58 AM
Let me see if I follow the logic. In the OT under the old covenant, it was ok to wage war. Now it is no longer ok to wage war because it is the NT and a new covenant. When Christ returns it will once again be ok to wage war. What covenant will that be?

In short then, it was ok, now it isn't but later it will be. Makes perfect sense.

it was ok as you put it in old testement because god directly came to individuals and told them to do so.

do you see the difference between that and what happens nowadays ?

the presidents never stands up and says god gave me a vision to go wage war.

some of you make it sound like in the old testement god said to everyone its ok go wage war cut loose.

he was sending visions and angels to specific people, to tell them to wage war.

i mean honestly do you see a difference between that and what happens now ?

fewarechosen
Jun 25th 2008, 04:15 AM
So then....if Russia starts bombing us, and tries to take over our land, in turn removing our freedom of religion, should we then just lay down and let them? Should we not defend our land? Would you let some stranger come into your home, kill your family and kick you out into the streets? Or would you fight to protect what is yours? Do you spose God would curse you for defending your loved ones and your home? Or would he curse you for just letting the enemy come and ravish a child that is in your care?
Just something to think about.:hmm:

if russia bombs us to take over our land -- its not our land its gods

removing our freedom of religion -- the law is now written in our hearts and minds, they cannot remove gods covenent with his people

should we not defend our land ? -- we do not defend something that is not ours --and we do err when we think we do

Would you let some stranger come into your home, kill your family and kick you out into the streets? --- god let strangers come into his home and let them put nails through his sons hands and feet and let him be spit on and beat. if god let that happen to his son what do you tihnk he will allow to happen to yours

Or would you fight to protect what is yours? --- nothing is ours, so you have nothing to fight to protect. its all gods and if he wants it dead it will die , if he doesnt he wont.

Do you spose God would curse you for defending your loved ones and your home? your loved ones and family are everyone ---LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF--- we are told by christ to love our enemy -- he doesnt say love your enemy unless hes gonna do something bad to you in which case kill him.


Or would he curse you for just letting the enemy come and ravish a child that is in your care?--------------------

will god curse you when a bomb of your governments rips through the limbs of a small child who knows not even how to speak let alone things of nations and hatreds ? go ask one of those children how rightous your government is

we will love our own children more than others so we would rather have their children be blown up than ours --- that is sin

love your neighbor as yourself --- not--- love only your neighbor who agrees with you and doesnt have conflict with you

something else to think about

keck553
Jun 25th 2008, 04:33 AM
sin is disobedience to God's regulations, not some made up morality from men. That's why Jesus rose up to some Pharasees, because they put man's ordinances before God's.

and we all know what Jesus said about that

Merton
Jun 25th 2008, 04:43 AM
Hi,

My views are--

1. If a Christian is in the police force and faced with a man shooting at people then he is going to have to shoot him down if he does not desist, and if no challenge is possible then he must shoot. The policeman is an extention of government and is authorised by Rom ch 13. and Daniel ch 2.
In this case God may well help aim the gun.

2. A police force is for the protection and maintenance of order within a country and can not be compared exactly with an army for the protection of the country from without.(especially the modern army)

3. A modern army like as of the USA is no comparson with Gods people entering the promised land of the OT.

4. The nearest we can compare is Caesars army with the army of the USA and that in itself is not all bad.

5. An army can be involved in its ligitmate purpose of defending a country or helping another country to defend itself from invading forces, but it is another thing for that army to be used for the invasion of another country because they fear that it might do something.

6. All governments of this world are not of satan, but can become so.

7 When the countrie's government becomes evil then it may reflect the attitudes of its people.

8. This is not always the case because if the church is strong in the Lord in that country then God has the authority to change that government for the good for the sake of the minority righteous.

9 However it can be so that a government becomes evil and draws its constituents to follow it to destruction before the government is changed for the sake of those remaining who may have repented after wavering.

10. A Christian is not called to fight wars with swords as the believers did in the OT. Even David was not allowed to build the temple of God because he shed much blood, even though his wars were ligitimate.

11. A soldier of Christ must not involve himself in the affairs of this life but in the affairs in relation to eternal life and how that effects the morality of the nation in all of its dealings from families to governments AND its relationship with other governments.

12 God raises up from others of mankind or uses His own methods to protect the Christian from his enemies if he wants to, when his enemies refuse the goodness and kindnesses of the righteous who may have only become so only after being harrassed by the wicked (and then repented), because the righteous had forgotten their Lords commands and had fallen into sin accompanied by fear and trusting in their own selves.

13. God is the unseen head over all of the world and only He is the true King of the nations and decides between them. If any government or coalition of governments decide that they are the policemen of the world and therefore King of the nations, and speak against the true King of the nations and His people, and force their own will on the worlds nations by the power of money and the gun then that government or governments will be doomed along with all who use it to their own short term material gain at the expense of the poor forced to serve them.

Psalm 2. James ch 5, but the whole of James.

Merton.

ProDeo
Jun 25th 2008, 10:12 AM
if russia bombs us to take over our land -- its not our land its gods

removing our freedom of religion -- the law is now written in our hearts and minds, they cannot remove gods covenent with his people

should we not defend our land ? -- we do not defend something that is not ours --and we do err when we think we do

Would you let some stranger come into your home, kill your family and kick you out into the streets? --- god let strangers come into his home and let them put nails through his sons hands and feet and let him be spit on and beat. if god let that happen to his son what do you tihnk he will allow to happen to yours

Or would you fight to protect what is yours? --- nothing is ours, so you have nothing to fight to protect. its all gods and if he wants it dead it will die , if he doesnt he wont.

Do you spose God would curse you for defending your loved ones and your home? your loved ones and family are everyone ---LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF--- we are told by christ to love our enemy -- he doesnt say love your enemy unless hes gonna do something bad to you in which case kill him.


Or would he curse you for just letting the enemy come and ravish a child that is in your care?--------------------

will god curse you when a bomb of your governments rips through the limbs of a small child who knows not even how to speak let alone things of nations and hatreds ? go ask one of those children how rightous your government is

we will love our own children more than others so we would rather have their children be blown up than ours --- that is sin

love your neighbor as yourself --- not--- love only your neighbor who agrees with you and doesnt have conflict with you

something else to think about

For the sake of the discussion, well argumented!

Waiting for responses....

Like to add:

11 of the 12 apostles died a violent death, Paul too.

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

So either we believe in our current system of justice based on Christian values our government representing the Sword of God (Rom 13:4) or we choose the 100% pacifist position with all its consequences.

For sure the apostles, Paul, Stephen stepped into the footsteps of our Lord. Jesus told Peter for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword and Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

A 100% pacifist Christian simply has to rely on God's justice as stipulated in Romans 12:19

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Ed (undecided)

EarlyCall
Jun 25th 2008, 10:33 AM
it was ok as you put it in old testement because god directly came to individuals and told them to do so.

How well do you know your Bible? I have to ask because God often used kings of the enemies of Israel to wage war against the Jews. God didn't go directly to these wicked kings and say, "I want you to wage war on Israel." And yet they did God's will. Can you explain this?

do you see the difference between that and what happens nowadays ?


No. Not really. Yes, I understand what you are saying, but no I don't see scriptural support for this making war wrong today but right then. What I do see is mental gymnastics.

the presidents never stands up and says god gave me a vision to go wage war.

Yea, well, my thinking is that on some occasions, say WWII for example, God probably figured our leaders were bright enough to not have to be told.

some of you make it sound like in the old testement god said to everyone its ok go wage war cut loose.

No, we are referring to the fact that war was waged and very often by the command of God Himself. Some of you make it sound as though the OT is off-limits and no longer God's word. At the very least you make it sound like we need to ignore it and the God of the OT is no longer the same God. He had a change of heart, changed His mind,changed His tune.

he was sending visions and angels to specific people, to tell them to wage war.

If only God would communicate to people today. If only He would still talk to us today somehow.

i mean honestly do you see a difference between that and what happens now ?

No. I see what you are trying to say. I don't see a difference though.

Some day God will draw Gog and Magog isn't it down to Israel to wage war against the Jews. It looks to me like the same God. And we are still people. I find these to be two major factors that haven't changed a bit.

It is my opinion that some wish to ignore reality. Now I don't believe in defending oneself when it comes to being persecuted for the sake of Christ. That's what I personally believe. But other than that, I most certainly do believe in defending oneself. I do see a difference there.

And that same principle holds true for our nation. That is what I believe. It is the real world we live in and I just don't see God anywhere in His word pretending otherwise.

Alaska
Jun 25th 2008, 12:23 PM
Justification of war or killing is abominable.
Jesus would have those taking that position to kindly get His name out of their mouths in accordance to the exhortation by the apostle Paul and His own words whereby the lukewarm are to be spit out.
Loving our enemies is one of the precious truths Jesus was hated for and partly why he was eventually killed. The filling up of the sufferings of Christ that are past is manifested in the attack against those here defending Jesus's teaching of non violence. Sadly that attack is being carried out by those professing to know Jesus!!
In reality however they are of the world and therefore they speak on behalf of the world.
James 4:4 "enmity with God" "enemy of God"

theleast
Jun 25th 2008, 12:36 PM
Not an example I think you can follow with the same results ;)

Maybe not exactly the same results, but it is an example that CAN be followed with positive results. There have been many martyrs.

theleast
Jun 25th 2008, 12:38 PM
Oh...wait...my mistake...that's a gun caliber.

I suppose it will further complicate thing if I try to apply the sword thing to contemporary society. :)

I think this was supposed to be a joke?

Wasn't funny really, but in keeping to the topic. Christ wasn't telling them to go buy metal weapons was my point. I'll leave it up to those with wisdom to discern what type of sword Christ was referring to.

theleast
Jun 25th 2008, 12:52 PM
For the sake of the discussion, well argumented!

Waiting for responses....

Like to add:

11 of the 12 apostles died a violent death, Paul too.

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

So either we believe in our current system of justice based on Christian values our government representing the Sword of God (Rom 13:4) or we choose the 100% pacifist position with all its consequences.

For sure the apostles, Paul, Stephen stepped into the footsteps of our Lord. Jesus told Peter for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword and Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

A 100% pacifist Christian simply has to rely on God's justice as stipulated in Romans 12:19

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Ed (undecided)

Good post. I would fully like to add that if we did everything in accordance to God's will, I would fully expect God would protect us entirely, up until the appointed time of our death.

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 01:26 PM
its interesting that you think there is a difference between walking as christ as an individual and carrying out government duties.

there is no difference at all

One can do both. That is the point I am making. However, God did make a distinction between individual responsibilities and governmental/authority responsibilities. A man can turn the other cheek when he is oppressed. That same man would be in dereliction of his duties as a government official before God to turn the other cheek and allow those under his authority to suffer at the hands of an evil man. We can see how God handled such issues in government over and over again in the OT. We see it in the NT as well.

So, as an individual that is wronged, we all are to turn the other cheek. When God puts us in a place of authority, we are to carry out those duties as well. But without authority to move and to act, one is in sin to do it. Authority makes all the difference in the world.

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 01:30 PM
it was ok as you put it in old testement because god directly came to individuals and told them to do so.

do you see the difference between that and what happens nowadays ?

the presidents never stands up and says god gave me a vision to go wage war.

some of you make it sound like in the old testement god said to everyone its ok go wage war cut loose.

he was sending visions and angels to specific people, to tell them to wage war.

i mean honestly do you see a difference between that and what happens now ?

You think God doesn't speak today? He gave us examples to follow in scripture about both hearing God and scripture to guide us. Romans 13 says that government is to wield the sword against the evil man.

Part of government's responsibility is to protect those under it's charge from evil men. Hilter was evil and needed to feel the sword of government. God gave plenty examples of that in the OT.

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 01:35 PM
if russia bombs us to take over our land -- its not our land its gods

Actually, God himself established land ownership in scripture. Though I don't recommend fighting for land.


Would you let some stranger come into your home, kill your family and kick you out into the streets? --- god let strangers come into his home and let them put nails through his sons hands and feet and let him be spit on and beat. if god let that happen to his son what do you tihnk he will allow to happen to yoursBut he protected those that were with him. On a spiritual level, you are correct in that he allows us to suffer momentarily. But when Jesus was here, he protected those that were with him supernaturally. That's what those in authority do. No man should let his family be destroyed as that would not be proper nor following the example of Christ. He himself is to turn the other cheek.


Or would you fight to protect what is yours?
--- nothing is ours, so you have nothing to fight to protect. its all gods and if he wants it dead it will die , if he doesnt he wont.Actually, many things happen that are not the will of God. God didn't want Adam to die but he ate and died.


Do you spose God would curse you for defending your loved ones and your home?
your loved ones and family are everyone ---LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF--- we are told by christ to love our enemy -- he doesnt say love your enemy unless hes gonna do something bad to you in which case kill him.We turn the other cheek. But we don't allow those under our authority to be harmed by evil men.


love your neighbor as yourself --- not--- love only your neighbor who agrees with you and doesnt have conflict with you

something else to think aboutKing David was under the same exact command. To love his neighbor, yet he warred.

God himself gave the command to love our enemies. Does God love his enemies? Yes he does! Does that keep him from going to war in Revelation? No it does not. He will make it right in the end. He will bring justice. And he will send to hell those whom he loves. Does God love his enemy and kill him? Yes.

evrgreenjhawk
Jun 25th 2008, 01:59 PM
Maybe not exactly the same results, but it is an example that CAN be followed with positive results. There have been many martyrs.

My point here was that I don't see how the sacrifice Christ made is a legitimate comparison here. His death was planned before time and HAD to happen and it was to save man from himself, not from others.
Now if the evil governments, bank robbers, kidnappers etc. who wage war would except one man, king, president, leader or whatever, and then spare all else and abandon their pursuit, then of course that would be a viable option.

fewarechosen
Jun 25th 2008, 01:59 PM
Would you let some stranger come into your home, kill your family and kick you out into the streets? --- god let strangers come into his home and let them put nails through his sons hands and feet and let him be spit on and beat. if god let that happen to his son what do you tihnk he will allow to happen to yours

you replied with this---

But he protected those that were with him. On a spiritual level, you are correct in that he allows us to suffer momentarily. But when Jesus was here, he protected those that were with him supernaturally. That's what those in authority do. No man should let his family be destroyed as that would not be proper nor following the example of Christ. He himself is to turn the other cheek.
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christ said those who keep gods command are his brothers and sisters. he did not protect the apostles and the martyrs. he sent them like sheep to the slaughter.
so christ let his family here be destroyed in the flesh, and did not count it as loss. christ did not take action to spare his sheep while in flesh. christ was a king with more authority than any government and he chose to let his family suffer many things.

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 02:03 PM
christ said those who keep gods command are his brothers and sisters. he did not protect the apostles and the martyrs. he sent them like sheep to the slaughter.

Not until they had survived his earthly ministry. When he was gone, then the sheep were scattered. But while he was here, they were protected.


so christ let his family here be destroyed in the flesh
, and did not count it as loss. christ did not take action to spare his sheep while in flesh. christ was a king with more authority than any government and he chose to let his family suffer many things.Like I said, not while he was here. The shepherd protects the flock from the wolf and the lion just as King David did. And God desires a great reward for us so he tells us to turn the other cheek. Then he tells government "Take vengeance on those evil men". In heaven, the martyrs are crying out to God for him to take vengeance and he will, as the ultimate authority. In the mean time, that is up to government authority.

But again, while Jesus was here, there was healing, and feeding, and protection. Until the crucifixion, Jesus was not scourged, his children were not stoned, his friends were not tortured. He protected them supernaturally while he was a man.

But that's a side issue. God does let his children here suffer and grow. But he also puts authority in place to keep evil in check. Let us not ignore our call from God to keep evil in check through government.

And I make a point again.... God loves his enemies and he kills them. I am not sure why folks keep harping on the idea that love means one cannot kill. God does it.

fewarechosen
Jun 25th 2008, 02:10 PM
Not until they had survived his earthly ministry. When he was gone, then the sheep were scattered. But while he was here, they were protected.

Like I said, not while he was here. The shepherd protects the flock from the wolf and the lion just as King David did. And God desires a great reward for us so he tells us to turn the other cheek. Then he tells government "Take vengeance on those evil men". In heaven, the martyrs are crying out to God for him to take vengeance and he will, as the ultimate authority. In the mean time, that is up to government authority.

But again, while Jesus was here, there was healing, and feeding, and protection. Until the crucifixion, Jesus was not scourged, his children were not stoned, his friends were not tortured. He protected them supernaturally while he was a man.

But that's a side issue. God does let his children here suffer and grow. But he also puts authority in place to keep evil in check. Let us not ignore our call from God to keep evil in check through government.

And I make a point again.... God loves his enemies and he kills them. I am not sure why folks keep harping on the idea that love means one cannot kill. God does it.


well im only going to respond to the last sentence which totally sums up your thinking i feel.

its basically saying well if god can kill so can we.

the answer is when you get to gods point of knowing and understanding a mans heart , and when you get to gods point of power and rightousness. then you can kill like god does.

till then its best to remember we are not god -- even if we want to think we are as rightous as him

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 02:14 PM
well im only going to respond to the last sentence which totally sums up your thinking i feel.

its basically saying well if god can kill so can we.

No it's not. What it's saying is that if God can love and kill, so can believers love and kill as long as it is within the boundaries established by God. Government is one place where man has authority to legally kill man before God.


the answer is when you get to gods point of knowing and understanding a mans heart , and when you get to gods point of power and rightousness. then you can kill like god does.

till then its best to remember we are not god -- even if we want to think we are as rightous as himGod gave government the responsibility to kill evil men that shed innocent men's blood. It's not always about the heart, though we wish to make it that. It is sometimes about the act itself. When a man commits murder, we don't judge the heart but we do judge the crime. The man's heart is between him and God. The man's crime is between him, God and the government. Government can kill this man and fulfill the command of God given to Noah and given again in Romans 13.

But glad that you agree it is possible to love someone and kill them. God does it so we know it is possible. Perhaps now we can stop with the idea that loving your neighbor means you can't kill him.

theleast
Jun 25th 2008, 02:14 PM
well im only going to respond to the last sentence which totally sums up your thinking i feel.

its basically saying well if god can kill so can we.

the answer is when you get to gods point of knowing and understanding a mans heart , and when you get to gods point of power and rightousness. then you can kill like god does.

till then its best to remember we are not god -- even if we want to think we are as rightous as him

Good post. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Let God deal out death and judgement. It's not our place.

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 02:17 PM
Good post. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Let God deal out death and judgement. It's not our place.

Actually, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, God himself made it our place to do so starting with Noah and going right up to Romans 13. Throughout the history of scripture, God has established government for just such a purpose.

fewarechosen
Jun 25th 2008, 02:37 PM
Actually, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, God himself made it our place to do so starting with Noah and going right up to Romans 13. Throughout the history of scripture, God has established government for just such a purpose.


well what it really boils down to is we are having different understandings of scripture. the good news is we all get to die, then god rewards us according to every word from our mouth.

this is in obvious run around mode so no point in going further.

i will leave on this note
god said all the kings of the earth have fornicated with the whore. so before you back any king its best to remember that. do you side with fornicators or with god ?

evrgreenjhawk
Jun 25th 2008, 02:47 PM
Actually, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, God himself made it our place to do so starting with Noah and going right up to Romans 13. Throughout the history of scripture, God has established government for just such a purpose.


Sounds to me as though he sides with God.

Sorry if that was a rhetorical question/last note ;)

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 02:52 PM
well what it really boils down to is we are having different understandings of scripture. the good news is we all get to die, then god rewards us according to every word from our mouth.

this is in obvious run around mode so no point in going further.

i will leave on this note
god said all the kings of the earth have fornicated with the whore. so before you back any king its best to remember that. do you side with fornicators or with god ?

Kings and government are two different things. All men have fornicated at some point or other. God established government and we are to submit to it. We are also to carry out it's God given responsibilities. If kings sin while running government, God will deal with them. Doesn't change the fact that we are commanded by God to carry out certain government duties.

As for rhetorical questions, I can phrase them just as well and ask them in a loaded way too. Do you think they will be effective if I do so? I don't. But just to show you what I mean, here's one that is just as loaded as the one you asked me.

God has commanded government as far back as Noah, to shed man's blood when he shed the blood of an innocent. Are you going to do as God commanded?

See, very loaded question and it ignores many other scriptures such as mercy and repentance. That's the problem with loaded and rhetorical questions. Their framed in such a way as to make the point without considering the big picture and the totality of scriptures. So yes, I will side with God and do as God commanded me to do concerning government. If that means fighting a just war, then I will be obedient to God and government and go to war.

theleast
Jun 25th 2008, 03:09 PM
So then I guess we are going to pick and choose scripture to fit our personal opinions.

In that case I am going to pick Christs two commandments as superceding all the rest. I will love my neighbor as myself, and this includes not participating in the wars of unholy governments. All of today's governments are unholy, which is why God's judgement will throw them all down.

And more importantly I am going to love God above all else, which means not following fornicating kings and the governments that set these kings up with the ability to fornicate.

keck553
Jun 25th 2008, 03:24 PM
Not to go off on a rabbit trail, but this moring I was behind a car that had a sticker that said "Peace", and some of the letters were a Cross, a Star of David, a Budda, and a Crescent moon. Symbolizing all these paths lead to God.

The truth is what the bible says. There may come a time when we here in relative safety will face persecution such as we can't imagine. They may come a time when the unified one world religion system system singles us out as the evil ones who are the rabble rousers.

The bible says even the elect will be fooled. The antichrist will seem like a great man of peace, but he will not obey the law of God. This is our only way to determine if he is set apart for God's purpose, or set in the ways of satan. satan would like to distract believers and turn them against each other with petty squabbles. We are all one in Messiah, and yes, we are a diverse group with many differences, but that's how God made us, the world formed us, and Christ is renewing our minds. I don't think sanctification is ever completed in a life time. We are obedient to God in the ways that we can handle the obedience in light of false teachings, our own bias, and our acceptance of God's revelations. This is why Paul emphasized that we are not to cast stumbling blocks in front of each other or ensnare each other with our opinions or revelations. If we are pursueing God faithfully and honestly, He'll renew our minds the way He sees fit for each of us. That means some of us will obey God in ways others can't understand (assuming the obedience is in line with God's Word).

Just wanting to remind myself of the second greatest commandment.

As far as war goes, God had clear purposes for the conflicts detailed in Torah, the Prophets and the Writings. The purpose was Messiah. Nothing in the Old Testament is exclusive of Jesus. It's all about Him. Now, He has come in the flesh, the commission given Him for his earthly life completed as prophecied and finished. The wars of the Old Testament were purposed for one thing - to bring in our Saviour at the right time, in the right place, and through the culture God Himself created, albeit corrupted by men.

So the question remains, what is God's purpose for war now, if Messiah's earthly work is finished? It's very dangerous to say any persecutions or war beyond the resurrection of Jesus is God-willed. God does show His favor to believers because that's what He promised and God is faithful.

Some would say that for God to protect Israel now is a dichotemy because as a corrporate they reject His Son. But only if your focus is on the wrong subject. No one can explain in a worldly sense how Israel has repelled the overwhelming odds it faced in 1949, 1955, 1967 and probably 1973 when combined Arab nations attempted to obliterate it.

I suggest we keep our eyes on the land, not so much the people who inhabit it, and remember God's promises. I don't believe God divorced anyone, other wise His Grace would be subject to question. God hates divorce. It is by the Grace of God we live long enough to come to know Him in our own lives. Let us not confuse eternal salvation with God's protection of His promises. God will not have His name profaned even by a rebellious people.

In the end, whatever our personal interpretations are, the good thing is that we all get to be with God, and He'll explain all these things to us, and wipe away our tears. Be ready.

fewarechosen
Jun 25th 2008, 03:29 PM
keck, thanks for taking the time to post.

i dont know if it was a typo or slight misunderstanding just wanted to bring up that the elect will not be fooled.
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For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

he doesnt say its possible-- just food for thought

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 03:33 PM
So then I guess we are going to pick and choose scripture to fit our personal opinions.

I think we take the whole of God's counsel.


In that case I am going to pick Christs two commandments as superceding all the rest. I will love my neighbor as myself, and this includes not participating in the wars of unholy governments. All of today's governments are unholy, which is why God's judgement will throw them all down.

Even so, they have their purpose. Nothing wrong with working in government or carrying out the purpose of government. Joseph did it. David did it. Daniel did it.


And more importantly I am going to love God above all else, which means not following fornicating kings and the governments that set these kings up with the ability to fornicate.

Ah, but scripture says to submit to them. And God gave us commands on how to function within government and what it's for. We can follow God as Joseph did, as Joshua did, as Moses did, as Daniel did and submit to government.

Now, we can agree to disagree. I have no issue with that. Many can come to scriptures and see things differently. I happen to think I am right before God in my position. Far be it from me to tell you how to live before the Lord or to sin against your conscience.

ProjectPeter
Jun 25th 2008, 03:34 PM
So then I guess we are going to pick and choose scripture to fit our personal opinions.

In that case I am going to pick Christs two commandments as superceding all the rest. I will love my neighbor as myself, and this includes not participating in the wars of unholy governments. All of today's governments are unholy, which is why God's judgement will throw them all down.

And more importantly I am going to love God above all else, which means not following fornicating kings and the governments that set these kings up with the ability to fornicate.
So then you wouldn't submit to this fornicating government? How do you get around the Scripture which clearly tells you to do so?

fewarechosen
Jun 25th 2008, 03:41 PM
So then you wouldn't submit to this fornicating government? How do you get around the Scripture which clearly tells you to do so?


the nazis were under hitlers rule.

did the ss commit sin when they lined women and children up and shot them in the back of the head, like they were ordered to ?

i suppose you would think the scientists ordered to torture and perform abominable procedures on people, did the right thing too

by your definition i would assume you think they did right for they followed their government.

so if your government told you to do the same would you ?

keck553
Jun 25th 2008, 03:43 PM
keck, thanks for taking the time to post.

i dont know if it was a typo or slight misunderstanding just wanted to bring up that the elect will not be fooled.
-------------------------------------------------------------
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

he doesnt say its possible-- just food for thought

You're correct, and now I have to admit I accepted that teaching without checking it for myself. Thanks so much for pointing that out in the scripture. It's funny, I've read Matthew 24 many times and completely missed the phrase. I'm going to study it out now in context and in the Greek, but it's apparent as to the reason why it's not possible, at least for the elect.

Thanks again, if all my time here has produced one thing that clears up a false teaching, this is it.

May the Lord bless you richly.

theleast
Jun 25th 2008, 03:50 PM
Correction. The bible does not say even the elect will be fooled. It says if it were possible.

Matthew 24:24 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Matthew+24:24&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Matthew+24&version=9)
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Big difference.

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 03:53 PM
the nazis were under hitlers rule.

did the ss commit sin when they lined women and children up and shot them in the back of the head, like they were ordered to ?

i suppose you would think the scientists ordered to torture and perform abominable procedures on people, did the right thing too

by your definition i would assume you think they did right for they followed their government.

so if your government told you to do the same would you ?

Of course not and, I believe you know his point. Daniel did not submit to his government when it asked him to sin. But he did when the government asked him to do something else.

If the government asks it citizens to go to war because the people were attacked, then PP and myself will go. We will submit to the government and protect those that God has put under it's care. On the other hand, if the government asks us to rape the women, we will refuse.

I think PP and I have made that point clear throughout this thread. Follow the government where God says follow it. Do not follow it where God says don't. But God did say submit to those in authority over us. He never told soldiers in the NT not to go to war. Not once did he ever tell them that.

theleast
Jun 25th 2008, 03:54 PM
So then you wouldn't submit to this fornicating government? How do you get around the Scripture which clearly tells you to do so?

The scripture tells me to follow the law, and I do, unless the law goes against the covenent written in my heart. If the law tells me to go out and kill my neighbor, then I will go to jail and follow Christs law instead.

I don't have go around scripture.

I am not a part of the world, I was chossen out of the world to follow Christ. I would rather follow Christ than follow the folly of man and their fornicating governments into the abyss.

ProjectPeter
Jun 25th 2008, 04:08 PM
The scripture tells me to follow the law, and I do, unless the law goes against the covenent written in my heart. If the law tells me to go out and kill my neighbor, then I will go to jail and follow Christs law instead.

I don't have go around scripture.

I am not a part of the world, I was chossen out of the world to follow Christ. I would rather follow Christ than follow the folly of man and their fornicating governments into the abyss.
But again... you have yet to show where "killing" as a whole is a sin. Why can you not show this?

EarlyCall
Jun 25th 2008, 04:20 PM
Justification of war or killing is abominable.
Jesus would have those taking that position to kindly get His name out of their mouths in accordance to the exhortation by the apostle Paul and His own words whereby the lukewarm are to be spit out.
Loving our enemies is one of the precious truths Jesus was hated for and partly why he was eventually killed. The filling up of the sufferings of Christ that are past is manifested in the attack against those here defending Jesus's teaching of non violence. Sadly that attack is being carried out by those professing to know Jesus!!
In reality however they are of the world and therefore they speak on behalf of the world.
James 4:4 "enmity with God" "enemy of God"

OK, I'll buy what you are saying if you can explain God calling David and man after His own heart and yet God also commanded David to kill Israel's enemies. What God do you worship? The God of the NT or the God of the OT?

Finally, I will buy what you say if you can also explain the change in God from the OT to the NT in regards to war and killing one's enemies. Did God have a change of heart? Did God repent of His former ways? If God did not have a change of heart, please explain. If God did not repent of His former ways, please explain. If God did have a change of heart and did repent of His former ways, please explain.

fewarechosen
Jun 25th 2008, 04:24 PM
Of course not and, I believe you know his point. Daniel did not submit to his government when it asked him to sin. But he did when the government asked him to do something else.

If the government asks it citizens to go to war because the people were attacked, then PP and myself will go. We will submit to the government and protect those that God has put under it's care. On the other hand, if the government asks us to rape the women, we will refuse.

I think PP and I have made that point clear throughout this thread. Follow the government where God says follow it. Do not follow it where God says don't. But God did say submit to those in authority over us. He never told soldiers in the NT not to go to war. Not once did he ever tell them that.

well said, so now i think our understanding is the same, we are to follow our government except where it comes in conflict with gods law.

here is the thing, we all have different gifts and so on, someone may have been given knowledge of sin better than another, so such a one might see more faults in the governments than another and in so seeing would feel more compelled to not follow a government into war.

so such a person would not condemn those who follow a government into war but know his place is different. he might have to make everyone question why are they really going to war and in so doing he himself might be in a war of sorts.

fewarechosen
Jun 25th 2008, 04:26 PM
But again... you have yet to show where "killing" as a whole is a sin. Why can you not show this?


how can one show you what is written in his heart ?

EarlyCall
Jun 25th 2008, 04:27 PM
the nazis were under hitlers rule.

did the ss commit sin when they lined women and children up and shot them in the back of the head, like they were ordered to ?

i suppose you would think the scientists ordered to torture and perform abominable procedures on people, did the right thing too

by your definition i would assume you think they did right for they followed their government.

so if your government told you to do the same would you ?

I think you are going off the deep end. What you've done here is to set up a worst case scenario and then pretend it is the usual, the standard. it is not in many cases.

We are of course not to murder. Killing is not always murder. That God made clear in His word. Ah, but that was the old God of the OT. We have a new and improved God now don't we!

It is amazing to me that some people can call God God but treat Him like He has some sort of split personality disorder.

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 04:27 PM
well said, so now i think our understanding is the same, we are to follow our government except where it comes in conflict with gods law.

here is the thing, we all have different gifts and so on, someone may have been given knowledge of sin better than another, so such a one might see more faults in the governments than another and in so seeing would feel more compelled to not follow a government into war.

so such a person would not condemn those who follow a government into war but know his place is different. he might have to make everyone question why are they really going to war and in so doing he himself might be in a war of sorts.

Whatever is not of faith is sin. If a man believes going to war is wrong, he best not go to war! For then, it would be sin to him.

We all do have different gifts. Some may have the gift of knowledge to see freedom where others cannot see it. ;)

Each man needs to live before the Lord as His God, in that, we can fully agree.

EarlyCall
Jun 25th 2008, 04:29 PM
I think we take the whole of God's counsel.



Even so, they have their purpose. Nothing wrong with working in government or carrying out the purpose of government. Joseph did it. David did it. Daniel did it.



Ah, but scripture says to submit to them. And God gave us commands on how to function within government and what it's for. We can follow God as Joseph did, as Joshua did, as Moses did, as Daniel did and submit to government.

Now, we can agree to disagree. I have no issue with that. Many can come to scriptures and see things differently. I happen to think I am right before God in my position. Far be it from me to tell you how to live before the Lord or to sin against your conscience.

Well, I just tried to rep you but I have to spread the cheer around some first. :) Anyway, some great points!

jewel4Christ
Jun 25th 2008, 04:30 PM
Hi ya'll...back again, lol.....(sometimes we have to obey God, rather than what we ourselves would choose to do.....)


:D


Phaeton is correct.

The law of God is based on love. It is written in our hearts, and when it is written there, you should submit to it.



Love does NOT harm his neighbor.


romans 13:10

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Now, the argument continues about those ot saints that supposedly killed and, had the same law in their hearts...we need to understand their hearts at the time of their committing the acts. It has been shown that once they had repented, and come into fellowship with God, that He showed them a better way...as David spoke...and, I supplied scripture for. The problem is that people are reading the old covenant without understanding that there were times that these men of God, were YET carnal. So, one must rightly divide the word of God, and look to what it speaks from their perspective ONCE they received the circumcision of the heart, and came to see the love of God fulfilled in them, and this is why we are not in agreement here.

Anyone whom could think that love allows one to harm his enemy/neighbor is twisting the word of God, and making it appear as IF God is saying one thing, and doing another.

Can we discern that God uses carnal nations to correct other carnal nations? Yes.

Can we then discern that once a individual has underwent the circumcision of the heart and had love fulfilled in his heart, that he then must follow a better way, and not just to those whom he loves naturally, but those whom God says are his enemies?

Yes.

End of story.

People can continue to deny the truth...no one can make anyone change their minds...only God can change a heart.

It is pointless to debate this.


What is not pointless is that hopefully those whom are truly seeking the truth on this matter will see it for what it is.

...and, to that, I can only give thanks to God.

peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 04:36 PM
The law of God is based on love. It is written in our hearts, and when it is written there, you should submit to it.

Love does NOT harm his neighbor.

Does God love those he kills? Are governments to allow evil men to steal, kill and destroy? Is that what the command of God means?

fewarechosen
Jun 25th 2008, 04:37 PM
I think you are going off the deep end. What you've done here is to set up a worst case scenario and then pretend it is the usual, the standard. it is not in many cases.

We are of course not to murder. Killing is not always murder. That God made clear in His word. Ah, but that was the old God of the OT. We have a new and improved God now don't we!

It is amazing to me that some people can call God God but treat Him like He has some sort of split personality disorder.


we have a new covenent not a new god, in all those times in the old testement did any of those people that god told to go wage war and so on --- did they have the holy spirit ?

you think we are saying it is a different god but we arent, we are saying a different covenent.

the ones with the holy spirit are different from the ones without. the ones with the spirit have gods law etched in thier heart --david and all the OT people did not, thus god interacted in a different way.

but now we have a new covenent -- there is no difference between ot god and nt god he just let loose the holy spirit now.

ProjectPeter
Jun 25th 2008, 04:41 PM
how can one show you what is written in his heart ?
Well.. if it is God that wrote it on your heart then God has clearly defined "kill"... right? And God killed. So once again... if all killing is a sin and we can't kill... then God killed therefore your doctrine forces you to accuse God Himself of committing sin. Look... you guys are saying that when you say that all killing is a sin therefore....

ProjectPeter
Jun 25th 2008, 04:42 PM
Hi ya'll...back again, lol.....(sometimes we have to obey God, rather than what we ourselves would choose to do.....)


:D


Phaeton is correct.

The law of God is based on love. It is written in our hearts, and when it is written there, you should submit to it.



Love does NOT harm his neighbor.


romans 13:10

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Now, the argument continues about those ot saints that supposedly killed and, had the same law in their hearts...we need to understand their hearts at the time of their committing the acts. It has been shown that once they had repented, and come into fellowship with God, that He showed them a better way...as David spoke...and, I supplied scripture for. The problem is that people are reading the old covenant without understanding that there were times that these men of God, were YET carnal. So, one must rightly divide the word of God, and look to what it speaks from their perspective ONCE they received the circumcision of the heart, and came to see the love of God fulfilled in them, and this is why we are not in agreement here.

Anyone whom could think that love allows one to harm his enemy/neighbor is twisting the word of God, and making it appear as IF God is saying one thing, and doing another.

Can we discern that God uses carnal nations to correct other carnal nations? Yes.

Can we then discern that once a individual has underwent the circumcision of the heart and had love fulfilled in his heart, that he then must follow a better way, and not just to those whom he loves naturally, but those whom God says are his enemies?

Yes.

End of story.

People can continue to deny the truth...no one can make anyone change their minds...only God can change a heart.

It is pointless to debate this.


What is not pointless is that hopefully those whom are truly seeking the truth on this matter will see it for what it is.

...and, to that, I can only give thanks to God.

peaceandlove,

janetWas God carnal when He killed?

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 04:44 PM
we have a new covenent not a new god, in all those times in the old testement did any of those people that god told to go wage war and so on --- did they have the holy spirit ?

Yes. It was the Holy Spirit that enabled them to wage war.

Judg 15:14-16

14 When he came to Lehi, the Philistines shouted as they met him. And the Spirit of the Lord came upon him mightily so that the ropes that were on his arms were as flax that is burned with fire, and his bonds dropped from his hands. 15 And he found a fresh jawbone of a donkey, so he reached out and took it and killed a thousand men with it.
NASB

The Holy Spirit came upon men in the OT just as he comes upon men in the NT. The difference is now the Holy Spirit also lives inside men. But the OT saints "had" the Holy Spirit too.


the ones with the holy spirit are different from the ones without. the ones with the spirit have gods law etched in thier heart --david and all the OT people did not, thus god interacted in a different way.

David did have the law of God written in his heart. Though not all OT folks did.

Ps 119:11
11 Thy word I have treasured in my heart,
That I may not sin against Thee.
NASB

and

Ps 51:6
6 Behold, Thou dost desire truth in the innermost being,
And in the hidden part Thou wilt make me know wisdom.
NASB

The covenants are different and God does write his word in our hearts. But he also wrote it in David's heart too. The difference is we have the Holy Spirit in us not just on us. Being born again is not just a new testament concept. Jesus taught it before he died and rose again. He expected Nicodemus to be aware of it. Saul also had a new heart and the Holy Spirit came upon him.

But the new covenant is way better and far more complete in that we become partakers of the uncreated life of God himself.

but now we have a new covenent -- there is no difference between ot god and nt god he just let loose the holy spirit now.[/quote]

ProjectPeter
Jun 25th 2008, 04:46 PM
we have a new covenent not a new god, in all those times in the old testement did any of those people that god told to go wage war and so on --- did they have the holy spirit ?

you think we are saying it is a different god but we arent, we are saying a different covenent.

the ones with the holy spirit are different from the ones without. the ones with the spirit have gods law etched in thier heart --david and all the OT people did not, thus god interacted in a different way.

but now we have a new covenent -- there is no difference between ot god and nt god he just let loose the holy spirit now.
Yes they did. Moses had the Spirit as did Joshua. ;)

Numbers 11:16 *¶The LORD therefore said to Moses, "Gather for Me seventy men from the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people and their officers and bring them to the tent of meeting, and let them take their stand there with you.
17 *"Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit who is upon you, and will put Him upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you shall not bear it all alone.


Numbers 27:18 *So the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him;

jewel4Christ
Jun 25th 2008, 04:46 PM
Does God love those he kills? Are governments to allow evil men to steal, kill and destroy? Is that what the command of God means?

God loves all mankind. He is not a respector of persons. What God did in the old covenant has already been explained.

You have already been shown that David, for example, was not even allowed to build a house unto the Lord, UNTIL he put those false ways under his feet.

It has NOT been a argument that God DOES use carnal men to fulfill his ways, and, even by wars.

I would really like it if you would answer my questions. I have answered ALL of yours.

1. Why does God make a distinction on what He does do through carnal men and those led of the spirit?

2. Why is it ok for you to go kill your enemies, and in so doing, kill innocents, when you agree it is an abomination to the Lord.

Please answer this scripture here, too:


"You know that David my father was unable to build a house for the name of the LORD his God because of the wars which surrounded him, until the LORD put them under the soles of his feet.


1 kings 5:3

Are you going to deny this fact?

peaceandlove,

janet

Slug1
Jun 25th 2008, 04:47 PM
How did I miss this thread even as busy as I was yesterday :o

I'm playing catchup now ;)

jewel4Christ
Jun 25th 2008, 04:50 PM
we have a new covenent not a new god, in all those times in the old testement did any of those people that god told to go wage war and so on --- did they have the holy spirit ?

you think we are saying it is a different god but we arent, we are saying a different covenent.

the ones with the holy spirit are different from the ones without. the ones with the spirit have gods law etched in thier heart --david and all the OT people did not, thus god interacted in a different way.

but now we have a new covenent -- there is no difference between ot god and nt god he just let loose the holy spirit now.

AMEN, it is clear in the word of God that God did use them BEFORE they were converted. Afterwards, they had a NEW heart, one based on LOVE.

In reality, I think God was really showing mankind the difference between the two ways, even back then...His ways are NOT our ways.

I will stand with what He has revealed through love.


peaceandlove,

janet

EarlyCall
Jun 25th 2008, 04:52 PM
Hi ya'll...back again, lol.....(sometimes we have to obey God, rather than what we ourselves would choose to do.....)


:D


Phaeton is correct.

The law of God is based on love. It is written in our hearts, and when it is written there, you should submit to it.



Love does NOT harm his neighbor.


romans 13:10

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Now, the argument continues about those ot saints that supposedly killed and, had the same law in their hearts...we need to understand their hearts at the time of their committing the acts. It has been shown that once they had repented, and come into fellowship with God, that He showed them a better way...as David spoke...and, I supplied scripture for. The problem is that people are reading the old covenant without understanding that there were times that these men of God, were YET carnal. So, one must rightly divide the word of God, and look to what it speaks from their perspective ONCE they received the circumcision of the heart, and came to see the love of God fulfilled in them, and this is why we are not in agreement here.

Yea, well, I'm thinking of Moses and when he came down from the mountain and found the golden calf. Would you lke to comment on that situation in light of what you just said? There ar plenty of other examples too. And please, don't try to use David as your example. Long after David had died God consistently referred to David as the man that did all God wanted him to do - except for that thing with Uriah. So that very much contradicts your claims immediately above. At I see it anyway.

Anyone whom could think that love allows one to harm his enemy/neighbor is twisting the word of God, and making it appear as IF God is saying one thing, and doing another.


No, listening to you and some others, it sounds like God did one thing and now another. It sounds like God drug us into His killing and now wants us to stay out of it. I wish He'd make up His mind.

Can we discern that God uses carnal nations to correct other carnal nations? Yes.

Agreed.

Can we then discern that once a individual has underwent the circumcision of the heart and had love fulfilled in his heart, that he then must follow a better way, and not just to those whom he loves naturally, but those whom God says are his enemies?

Yes.

End of story.

People can continue to deny the truth...no one can make anyone change their minds...only God can change a heart.

It is pointless to debate this.

Well of course it is pointless. But that isn't why we do or don't do it. That isn't why you were in here posting. Not because you thought it held out some promise of changing anything. Did you? If so, you must be new to this. :)

What is not pointless is that hopefully those whom are truly seeking the truth on this matter will see it for what it is.

...and, to that, I can only give thanks to God.

peaceandlove,

janet

I have to say something here. Oh, ok, this thread sure is hoppin!

jewel4Christ
Jun 25th 2008, 04:53 PM
David did have the law of God written in his heart. Though not all OT folks did.

Ps 119:11
11 Thy word I have treasured in my heart,
That I may not sin against Thee.

No one is saying otherwise. What we are saying is that BEFORE they did, God used them in a carnal WAY.

Now, would you please answer my questions?

Thanks....

peaceandlove,

janet

ProDeo
Jun 25th 2008, 04:54 PM
Hi BM!

For the sake of the discussion I prefer to take the 100% pacifist position for the moment. It's one of those long term unresolved issues that keep coming back without ever ending in a clear 100-0% stance, it's always 70/30, 80/20 and now because of this thread 50/50 ;)

Biblically there is a lot to say for the 100% pacifist stance. Killing is only commanded by God, and by God alone, not by humans. Christians follow in the footsteps of our Lord in the same way as He walked on Earth. And Jesus never was interested in any earthly business, not in politics, not in properties, nor in money issues, not in law-enforcement, let alone war.

Instead Jesus said, "Seek the Kingdom first", and about money/politics: "Then He [Jesus] said to them, Give to Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and to God the things which are God’s".

Jesus lived a complete 100% pacifist live on Earth (except maybe the Temple cleaning) and ordered us specifically to do the very same.

It's true that when our Lord will return He will kill, probably millions, it will be one big massacre but Jesus then acts as King Jesus who is given the authority over Earth and Heaven by the Father. We are never given such orders. Even in the OT wars of Israel it was God who gave the order for war. Bottom line, God kills, we don't. Romans 12:9 Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

In this spirit let me comment between your lines.


Actually, God himself established land ownership in scripture.

Exactly where in Scripture?


But he protected those that were with him. On a spiritual level, you are correct in that he allows us to suffer momentarily. But when Jesus was here, he protected those that were with him supernaturally.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Although Jesus had all power in Heaven & Earth He allowed 11 of his 12 disciples being slaughtered by a cruel martyr death. Bottom line, there are no such guarantees of supernatural protection. If this were true we would not have this discussion.


King David was under the same exact command. To love his neighbor, yet he warred.

David was ordered, quite a difference. I vaguely remember an OT war the Israelites triggered themselves without seeking the Lord. Weren't they not punished for that? I could be wrong.


God himself gave the command to love our enemies. Does God love his enemies? Yes he does! Does that keep him from going to war in Revelation? No it does not. He will make it right in the end. He will bring justice. And he will send to hell those whom he loves. Does God love his enemy and kill him? Yes.

In full agreement. God does all that. God decides war, we don't.

Ed

fewarechosen
Jun 25th 2008, 04:56 PM
Yes they did. Moses had the Spirit as did Joshua. ;)

Numbers 11:16 *¶The LORD therefore said to Moses, "Gather for Me seventy men from the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people and their officers and bring them to the tent of meeting, and let them take their stand there with you.
17 *"Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit who is upon you, and will put Him upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you shall not bear it all alone.


Numbers 27:18 *So the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him;

interesting that you think the holy spirit was let loose before christ. we will have to start a new thread on this

also note that he says spirit in these scriptures not holy spirit .

jewel4Christ
Jun 25th 2008, 04:57 PM
I have to say something here. Oh, ok, this thread sure is hoppin!

:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::b ounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

..and, hopefully, we may begin to see what is being said in reality...instead of what some think we are saying?

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 25th 2008, 05:02 PM
interesting that you think the holy spirit was let loose before christ. we will have to start a new thread on this

also note that he says spirit in these scriptures not holy spirit .

I personally believe that many of the ot saints received the indwelling of the holy spirit and even had the same law written on their hearts, after conversion, but where I see the diffference is that while they were yet carnal/ before they fully submitted themselves to God, through repentance, and faith, that God used them in carnal ways, thereby showing the difference even back then between the way of the Lord and the way of the flesh...I would be in agreement, however that there is a huge difference between the holy spirit "landing" on them, as in over them, but not within them, than, what occurs when He actually enters your heart.

You must be born again.




peaceandlove,

janet

EarlyCall
Jun 25th 2008, 05:06 PM
we have a new covenent not a new god, in all those times in the old testement did any of those people that god told to go wage war and so on --- did they have the holy spirit ?

you think we are saying it is a different god but we arent, we are saying a different covenent.

No, I know what you are saying, but I am trying to make a point - different covenant or not it is still the same God and He is still the same now as He was then.

the ones with the holy spirit are different from the ones without. the ones with the spirit have gods law etched in thier heart --david and all the OT people did not, thus god interacted in a different way.

The Holy Spirit fell upon Saul and he began to prophesy along with the other prophets. :)

but now we have a new covenent -- there is no difference between ot god and nt god he just let loose the holy spirit now.


Yea, you need to take this further please. Because see, I figure it this way: Holy Spirit or God Himself speaking to us, same thing. So when God told David go and kill, and David did so, and God said good job, what difference then would the Holy Spirit have made? What would have changed?

Again, one more time. Unless you or anyone can tell me why Jesus didn't tell the centurion to get out of the military or why God didn't tell Peter to tell Cornelius to get out fo the military, then I ain't buying it.

Fact is this: you cannot explain it and therefore you must ignore it or try to explain it away somehow.

Off how God sent Peter a vision and said go and tell Corneilus and his family about Christ. They got saved, they received the Holy Spirit but oh wait, no one, including God Himself bothered to tell Corneilus it was wrong to be in the military. And no one can say Corneilus was in no position to kill because he was in the military. In fact he was.

And Christ failed to tell the centurion He so highly praised for his faith to get out of the military. Now one must ask why not. I mean Jesus really owed it to this man to tell him this. But He didn't. Very strange.

Don't you ever wonder about this?

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 05:09 PM
Hi BM!

For the sake of the discussion I prefer to take the 100% pacifist position for the moment. It's one of those long term unresolved issues that keep coming back without ever ending in a clear 100-0% stance, it's always 70/30, 80/20 and now because of this thread 50/50 ;)

OK. I hear you.


Biblically there is a lot to say for the 100% pacifist stance. Killing is only commanded by God, and by God alone, not by humans. Christians follow in the footsteps of our Lord in the same way as He walked on Earth. And Jesus never was interested in any earthly business, not in politics, not in properties, nor in money issues, not in law-enforcement, let alone war.

To a large part, I agree. Where I would disagree is that God established government for the purpose of resisting evil men. It started with Noah after God promised to not flood the world again. He then charged man with keeping evil men in check so as to avoid the world getting so filled with violence again. What we will see in the latter days, IMO is a move to stop government from shedding man's blood and then violence will again fill the earth as it did in the days of Noah.


Instead Jesus said, "Seek the Kingdom first", and about money/politics: "Then He [Jesus] said to them, Give to Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and to God the things which are God’s".

Jesus lived a complete 100% pacifist live on Earth (except maybe the Temple cleaning) and ordered us specifically to do the very same.

I know and the temple is us now. So we are to clean ourself out just as violently. Let us remember that Jesus was charged with a specific mission. He exemplified the Father's character. God is patient, kind, gentle, etc. Yet, Jesus has also led men into battle (i.e. Joshua) and God has enabled men to fight and kill (Samson). Indeed, we are to seek God's kingdom above all. Part of that is allowing government to do it's job to keep evil men in check. IMO, that doesn't mean we should mix religion and politics. IOW, government is not the means by which we teach men the bible, or about prayer, or conversion or some other thing. It is simply the means by which God has chosen to protect mankind from the evil within men's heart.


It's true that when our Lord will return He will kill, probably millions, it will be one big massacre but Jesus then acts as King Jesus who is given the authority over Earth and Heaven by the Father. We are never given such orders. Even in the OT wars of Israel it was God who gave the order for war. Bottom line, God kills, we don't. Romans 12:9 Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

I agree with the part about vengeance being God's. But look at how God takes vengeance in Romans 13.

Rom 13:3-4
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.
NASB

God, being a God of authority, takes vengeance upon evil men through government authority. As an individual, I must always forgive. I must turn the other cheek. But God takes vengeance through government. Evil men are to fear government because God knows they don't fear Him. So God takes vengeance upon men through government and gave men the right to do so back in Noah's day.


Exactly where in Scripture?

I can give many examples. Ananias and Saphira owned land. God told them it was theres and they did not have to give it. It was in keeping back part while saying they gave all that got them in trouble. Leviticus also speaks of man's property. The jubilee year was all about returning land back to it's original owner.

Lev 14:33-34

33 The Lord further spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, 34 "When you enter the land of Canaan, which I give you for a possession,
NASB

Lev 25:8-11

8 'You are also to count off seven sabbaths of years for yourself, seven times seven years, so that you have the time of the seven sabbaths of years, namely, forty-nine years. 9 'You shall then sound a ram's horn abroad on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the day of atonement you shall sound a horn all through your land. 10 'You shall thus consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim a release through the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you, and each of you shall return to his own property, and each of you shall return to his family.
NASB

[qutoe]Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Although Jesus had all power in Heaven & Earth He allowed 11 of his 12 disciples being slaughtered by a cruel martyr death. Bottom line, there are no such guarantees of supernatural protection. If this were true we would not have this discussion.[/quote]

Agreed. God allows his children to suffer for a greater reward. However, in Jesus earthly ministry, they were protected until the shepherd was struck. Not one was lost. We have no guarantees of supernatural protection from violence.



David was ordered, quite a difference. I vaguely remember an OT war the Israelites triggered themselves without seeking the Lord. Weren't they not punished for that? I could be wrong.

David was ordered. But many today say that God won't order war today. Not sure why they say that. He has done it in the past. He's going to do it again in the future. Not sure why today is any different when it comes to his character as far as war is concerned. If you are asking me do I think there are just and unjust wars, yes. I think God punished Japan and Germany severely for their involvement in WW2. But that's my opinion.


In full agreement. God does all that. God decides war, we don't.

Ed

Yep. And men will make mistakes on many things. IMO though, it doesn't remove the ideal that God gave man government to make sure man was protected from the violence of Noah's day.

EarlyCall
Jun 25th 2008, 05:10 PM
interesting that you think the holy spirit was let loose before christ. we will have to start a new thread on this

also note that he says spirit in these scriptures not holy spirit .

And the Holy Spirit fell uppon Saul and he began to prophesy with the other prophets.

There are more. Different Holy Spirit? I don't think so.

jewel4Christ
Jun 25th 2008, 05:12 PM
Don't you ever wonder about this?

No, I don't. The bible makes it plain that love does not harm his neighbor. How much clearer can it be?

Can a person be in the military and not harm his neighbor?

Yes, they can, if they are not called to the battleground.

...and, that is why once a man is called to the battleground, it is THEN that God shows them how futile war is...I have talked to too many soldiars on that issue.


peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 05:13 PM
AMEN, it is clear in the word of God that God did use them BEFORE they were converted. Afterwards, they had a NEW heart, one based on LOVE.

In reality, I think God was really showing mankind the difference between the two ways, even back then...His ways are NOT our ways.

I will stand with what He has revealed through love.


peaceandlove,

janet

Saul got a new heart from God.

1 Sam 10:9-10

9 Then it happened when he turned his back to leave Samuel, God changed his heart; and all those signs came about on that day. 10 When they came to the hill there, behold, a group of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him mightily, so that he prophesied among them.
NASB

jewel4Christ
Jun 25th 2008, 05:19 PM
Quote:
David was ordered, quite a difference. I vaguely remember an OT war the Israelites triggered themselves without seeking the Lord. Weren't they not punished for that? I could be wrong.

David was ordered. But many today say that God won't order war today. Not sure why they say that. He has done it in the past. He's going to do it again in the future. Not sure why today is any different when it comes to his character as far as war is concerned. If you are asking me do I think there are just and unjust wars, yes. I think God punished Japan and Germany severely for their involvement in WW2. But that's my opinion.

I have not seen one person in this thread say this. Where are you getting the idea that we are saying that God does not order war? He very much orders war, and always has.

The argument has to do with WHOM He uses to fulfill this.

He does NOT use christians...they are taught to love their enemies, and love does not harm a enemy.

Could we stay on topic?

Thanks.

peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 05:20 PM
God loves all mankind. He is not a respector of persons. What God did in the old covenant has already been explained.

You have already been shown that David, for example, was not even allowed to build a house unto the Lord, UNTIL he put those false ways under his feet.

It has NOT been a argument that God DOES use carnal men to fulfill his ways, and, even by wars.

Are you saying David was carnal? And what of Samson who went to war when the Holy Spirit came upon him?

And again, let me ask this... does God kill those whom he loves? It has been stated over and over again that love won't kill. I beg to differ. I say God is love and that he does kill.


I would really like it if you would answer my questions. I have answered ALL of yours.

I don't think you have answered them all. But I will answer yours. For instance, you simply said God used carnal men. When God killed Korah, who did he use? When God killed Pharaoh and his armies, whom did he use?

I would not call David, Samson, Debra or Joshua carnal. Do you?


1. Why does God make a distinction on what He does do through carnal men and those led of the spirit?

There is a huge difference between the two. For instance, a carnal man will murder. A man led of the Spirit won't murder but he may kill.

Judg 15:14-16

14 When he came to Lehi, the Philistines shouted as they met him. And the Spirit of the Lord came upon him mightily so that the ropes that were on his arms were as flax that is burned with fire, and his bonds dropped from his hands. 15 And he found a fresh jawbone of a donkey, so he reached out and took it and killed a thousand men with it.
NASB

Samson, a Spirit led man in this instance, slew a thousand men. God so strengthened him, he was able to do it with a jawbone. Clearly, Samson was not operating in the power of his carnal flesh, but rather in the power and might of the Holy Spirit.


2. Why is it ok for you to go kill your enemies, and in so doing, kill innocents, when you agree it is an abomination to the Lord.

Let me ask again before I answer this question. Did God kill innocents when he flooded the earth in Noah's day? Did he kill innocents in Sodom? What about when King Saul was commanded to kill all the Amalekites, were any of them innocent?


"You know that David my father was unable to build a house for the name of the LORD his God because of the wars which surrounded him, until the LORD put them under the soles of his feet.

No doubt, David was a man of war and that is not what God is about. However, David was a man after God's own heart and knew the necessity of war. God is not a warmonger. But he is no war avoider either.

God himself kills and told man to do the same after the flood. He reinforced it in Romans 13.

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 05:22 PM
I have not seen one person in this thread say this. Where are you getting the idea that we are saying that God does not order war? He very much orders war, and always has.

The argument has to do with WHOM He uses to fulfill this.

He does NOT use christians...they are taught to love their enemies, and love does not harm a enemy.

He used his children in the OT to wage war. He will use them in the NT as well. God used David, a man after his own heart to wage war. He used Joshua. He used Moses, the meekest man in the world, to wage war.

God uses his children to do so. When soldiers came to John the Baptist and to Christ, not one time did either of them ever say "Don't go to war". They did tell them not to do other things though. But they remained silent on the war part. Shoot, that is what soldiers are for, keeping the peace through violence. These saved soldiers were not told to be non-violent.

jewel4Christ
Jun 25th 2008, 05:23 PM
Saul got a new heart from God.

1 Sam 10:9-10

I agree. He was converted...at some point during that conversion, God changed his way of thinking.

would you please answer my questions?

1 kings 5:3 "You know that David my father was unable to build a house for the name of the LORD his God because of the wars which surrounded him, until the LORD put them under the soles of his feet.

1. why does God make a distinction as to when a person can really worship in spirit and in truth, just as He did in the case of David?

2. Why do you feel it is ok for a christian to shed innocent blood through wars, when the bible says it is an abomination to God?

Can we please stay on topic?

thanks.

peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 25th 2008, 05:25 PM
No, I don't. The bible makes it plain that love does not harm his neighbor. How much clearer can it be?

Really? God is love. Does he harm people in hell? Does he himself kill folks?

fewarechosen
Jun 25th 2008, 05:27 PM
Yea, you need to take this further please. Because see, I figure it this way: Holy Spirit or God Himself speaking to us, same thing. So when God told David go and kill, and David did so, and God said good job, what difference then would the Holy Spirit have made? What would have changed?

Again, one more time. Unless you or anyone can tell me why Jesus didn't tell the centurion to get out of the military or why God didn't tell Peter to tell Cornelius to get out fo the military, then I ain't buying it.

Fact is this: you cannot explain it and therefore you must ignore it or try to explain it away somehow.

Off how God sent Peter a vision and said go and tell Corneilus and his family about Christ. They got saved, they received the Holy Spirit but oh wait, no one, including God Himself bothered to tell Corneilus it was wrong to be in the military. And no one can say Corneilus was in no position to kill because he was in the military. In fact he was.

And Christ failed to tell the centurion He so highly praised for his faith to get out of the military. Now one must ask why not. I mean Jesus really owed it to this man to tell him this. But He didn't. Very strange.

Don't you ever wonder about this?


somehow you think i am saying that everyone should get out of the military or something --- thats not at all what im saying. you can do gods will in anyplace you are.

im just saying the armies and all that is not even needed and to question why some countries decide to go to war.

coshirly
Jun 25th 2008, 05:33 PM
Jesus is qouted in the bible many times as having said in as many words that the ways of heaven and earth are very different. The consequences of war are suffering, death, poverty and displacement. Unfortunately, we human beings are not divine so these are the things that we will all suffer with or without war. I believe that the purpose of life is that through all these 'human' sufferings we remain faithful to God and love him above all others and stop pointing fingers at each other about who started this war and that war and simply accept that these are the consequences of 'free will' and before we ever came into existence there were wars, and so they will still be there long after we are dead.:hmm:

ProjectPeter
Jun 25th 2008, 06:00 PM
interesting that you think the holy spirit was let loose before christ. we will have to start a new thread on this

also note that he says spirit in these scriptures not holy spirit .
Numbers 11:17 *"Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit who is upon you, and will put Him upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you shall not bear it all alone.
18 *"And say to the people, `Consecrate yourselves for tomorrow, and you shall eat meat; for you have wept in the ears of the LORD, saying, "Oh that someone would give us meat to eat! For we were well-off in Egypt." Therefore the LORD will give you meat and you shall eat.
19 *`You shall eat, not one day, nor two days, nor five days, nor ten days, nor twenty days,
20 *but a whole month, until it comes out of your nostrils and becomes loathsome to you; because you have rejected the LORD who is among you and have wept before Him, saying, "Why did we ever leave Egypt?"´"
21 *But Moses said, "The people, among whom I am, are 600,000 on foot; yet Thou hast said, `I will give them meat in order that they may eat for a whole month.´
22 *"Should flocks and herds be slaughtered for them, to be sufficient for them? Or should all the fish of the sea be gathered together for them, to be sufficient for them?"
23 *And the LORD said to Moses, "Is the LORD's power limited? Now you shall see whether My word will come true for you or not."
24 *¶So Moses went out and told the people the words of the LORD. Also, he gathered seventy men of the elders of the people, and stationed them around the tent.
25 *Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And it came about that when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again.

Now... if you can show me somewhere how Moses' spirit carried with it the gift of prophecy... that could be translated proper with the small "s". Myself... I am pretty much guessing that you're not going to find any such Scripture. ;)

fewarechosen
Jun 25th 2008, 06:09 PM
Numbers 11:17 *"Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit who is upon you, and will put Him upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you shall not bear it all alone.
18 *"And say to the people, `Consecrate yourselves for tomorrow, and you shall eat meat; for you have wept in the ears of the LORD, saying, "Oh that someone would give us meat to eat! For we were well-off in Egypt." Therefore the LORD will give you meat and you shall eat.
19 *`You shall eat, not one day, nor two days, nor five days, nor ten days, nor twenty days,
20 *but a whole month, until it comes out of your nostrils and becomes loathsome to you; because you have rejected the LORD who is among you and have wept before Him, saying, "Why did we ever leave Egypt?"´"
21 *But Moses said, "The people, among whom I am, are 600,000 on foot; yet Thou hast said, `I will give them meat in order that they may eat for a whole month.´
22 *"Should flocks and herds be slaughtered for them, to be sufficient for them? Or should all the fish of the sea be gathered together for them, to be sufficient for them?"
23 *And the LORD said to Moses, "Is the LORD's power limited? Now you shall see whether My word will come true for you or not."
24 *¶So Moses went out and told the people the words of the LORD. Also, he gathered seventy men of the elders of the people, and stationed them around the tent.
25 *Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And it came about that when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again.

Now... if you can show me somewhere how Moses' spirit carried with it the gift of prophecy... that could be translated proper with the small "s". Myself... I am pretty much guessing that you're not going to find any such Scripture. ;)

actually you pointed something good out to me that i did not look into alot-- im gonna start a new thread about it so we dont derail this one.

just notice how the spirit "rested" on them , its like temporary thats why right after it says --but they did not do it again. meaning while it rested on them they were able but after it was done resting they werent.

now i have to look into this alot farther because you gave me much to look into. so when you see the thread start feel free to share more--because of the exact difference i am unsure, but i think it has to do with writing it in the hearts and minds--and not sort of resting on someone. we get it by indwelling.

jewel4Christ
Jun 25th 2008, 06:10 PM
Hi Mark,

Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1684829#post1684829)
God loves all mankind. He is not a respector of persons. What God did in the old covenant has already been explained.

You have already been shown that David, for example, was not even allowed to build a house unto the Lord, UNTIL he put those false ways under his feet.

It has NOT been a argument that God DOES use carnal men to fulfill his ways, and, even by wars.


Are you saying David was carnal? And what of Samson who went to war when the Holy Spirit came upon him?


I am saying that before David and Samson was converted/born again, that God used them in the same way He uses other carnal men, to bring about HIS PURPOSES...the holy spirit being ON them is not the same as the holy spirit being IN them.

The holy spirit being on them is for the purpose to put in their hearts and minds to bring about God's purposes. I am not saying that David was always in that position, no more than I would say anyone of us is....we all have been of that stance, have we not? You are not making a difference between the two, and trying to cram David, and etc into a mold that would not allow them to be shown as carnal, before their true conversions.

Here is how the holy spirit works on the OUTside of a person, entity:

Rev 17:17


"For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.

This is what and how God used David, and Samson, and all the others, before they were INDWELT.

Now, would you say that the beast is a born again entity?

NO..so, I don't understand why you cannot see the difference the bible clearly makes when using the different terms, concerning HOW the holy spirit works among men.

It has been shown already that once David was converted, that he dispised war, etc, and I am not going to go through all those verses again. Everyone needs to do their OWN homework, because that is the ONLY way truth is confirmed in us anyway. I cannot change your mind, and you are NOT going to change mine..on this issue.


And again, let me ask this... does God kill those whom he loves? It has been stated over and over again that love won't kill. I beg to differ. I say God is love and that he does kill.


...what God does is not what we are allowed to do. That has been said more than once. We do NOT have the capacity to know the hearts of men, as God does...and, HE ALONE has a right to take someone out..at HIS OWN calling. Now, when He uses carnal minded men and nations to fulfill His will, they do so on His direction, but NOT by indwelling of the holy spirit. That is a contradiction, because that indwelling teaches us to LOVE OUR ENEMIES..PERIOD, and love does not harm anyone...otherwise the whole word of God makes NO sense at all.


Quote:
I would really like it if you would answer my questions. I have answered ALL of yours.

I don't think you have answered them all. But I will answer yours. For instance, you simply said God used carnal men. When God killed Korah, who did he use? When God killed Pharaoh and his armies, whom did he use?

I would not call David, Samson, Debra or Joshua carnal. Do you?

YES, they were used the same way God will use the BEAST in the end time. God is not going to be mocked, those whom take up the sword shall die by the sword....and, ONCE David was converted and indwelt, HE DESPISED the ways of this world, and WAR.

Look up those verses again...anyone whom has come to hate war, does NOT support war. It is a contradiction in terms, bro.

Quote:
1. Why does God make a distinction on what He does do through carnal men and those led of the spirit?

There is a huge difference between the two. For instance, a carnal man will murder. A man led of the Spirit won't murder but he may kill.

Judg 15:14-16

14 When he came to Lehi, the Philistines shouted as they met him. And the Spirit of the Lord came upon him mightily so that the ropes that were on his arms were as flax that is burned with fire, and his bonds dropped from his hands. 15 And he found a fresh jawbone of a donkey, so he reached out and took it and killed a thousand men with it.
NASB

Samson, a Spirit led man in this instance, slew a thousand men. God so strengthened him, he was able to do it with a jawbone. Clearly, Samson was not operating in the power of his carnal flesh, but rather in the power and might of the Holy Spirit.


..and, in this case not ONE innocent was killed....and, this is what you are missing. When innocent blood is killed, God is NOT in it. Wars today are not fought without innocent blood being shed. Ask the muslim men whom have lost their woman and children, if you do not believe me. Ask the men and woman whom lay dead in the streets of jerusalem, or the men, woman and children whom lay dead in viet nam, etc...IF men fought with a bone, this would NOT be done. You are denying facts here. Why do you suppose God had them use a bone to begin with? Weapons of mass destruction are the RESULT OF evil men. When they are used, innocents are killed. God hates it and in no way would He EVER support this type of warfare. I don't care if you don't believe me...I know it to be the truth. If you go to war, you better just take a bone, or else you are not doing things in the same manner as what God would allow.


Quote:
2. Why is it ok for you to go kill your enemies, and in so doing, kill innocents, when you agree it is an abomination to the Lord.

Let me ask again before I answer this question. Did God kill innocents when he flooded the earth in Noah's day? Did he kill innocents in Sodom? What about when King Saul was commanded to kill all the Amalekites, were any of them innocent?

I already explained that to you, but you did not "get IT". They were innocent in more than ONE way. They will be raised, and judged by what they had available to them in that day. The word of God speaks to that. It will be more tolerable on the day of judgement, for example for the cities of sodom and gomorrah, than it will be for Jerusalem this side of the new covenant. The bible says that during that time, of IGNORANCE< God is able to overlook their unbelief..and, He alone will judge them fairly in the coming judgement. You must rightly divide the word of God, and stop making it contradict itself everywhere. Now, answer my question..why is it OK for you to kill innocents, while you think in your mind that God is sending you to do what has been done to others? Is God confusion? Does He speak out of both sides of His mouth? No, and in fact, He detests that twosided mouth issue, and that too, is written.



Quote:
"You know that David my father was unable to build a house for the name of the LORD his God because of the wars which surrounded him, until the LORD put them under the soles of his feet.

No doubt, David was a man of war and that is not what God is about. However, David was a man after God's own heart and knew the necessity of war. God is not a warmonger. But he is no war avoider either.

God himself kills and told man to do the same after the flood. He reinforced it in Romans 13.

You did not answer the question. WHY was David NOT allowed to build a house of WORSHIP to the ONE true God, while he was in his "war" state?

Please answer, and, I will show you why, because it is written.

peaceandlove,

janet

Slug1
Jun 25th 2008, 06:14 PM
2. Why do you feel it is ok for a christian to shed innocent blood through wars, when the bible says it is an abomination to God?

Hey Janet, can you post the scripture that inspired this question?

Also, what is your definition of "innocent blood"?

ProjectPeter
Jun 25th 2008, 06:18 PM
You did not answer the question. WHY was David NOT allowed to build a house of WORSHIP to the ONE true God, while he was in his "war" state?

Please answer, and, I will show you why, because it is written.

peaceandlove,

janet
David didn't build it period... even when he was old and not warring any longer. So not sure what you see written. ;)

jewel4Christ
Jun 25th 2008, 06:20 PM
actually you pointed something good out to me that i did not look into alot-- im gonna start a new thread about it so we dont derail this one.

just notice how the spirit "rested" on them , its like temporary thats why right after it says --but they did not do it again. meaning while it rested on them they were able but after it was done resting they werent.

now i have to look into this alot farther because you gave me much to look into. so when you see the thread start feel free to share more--because of the exact difference i am unsure, but i think it has to do with writing it in the hearts and minds--and not sort of resting on someone. we get it by indwelling.

Exactly. Even the beast has the spirit upon it, so to fulfill God's will. Is anyone here going to say that the beast is a "indwelt" entity?


Something to think about.

One thing is for sure, once David, for example was indwelt, he hated war, hated this world, and how it leads man to war.

Those things are written, but ignored.


peaceandlove,

janet

fewarechosen
Jun 25th 2008, 06:20 PM
if every person on the planet wanted us to live and sought to protect us, yet god wanted us dead, we would die.

if everyone wanted us dead yet god wanted us to live, no man would kill us.

there being military or no military, police or no police. it changes neither of those 2 scenarios.

so my faith is not in any man made institution or protection but in god.

christ killed no one while here, and so i seek to do the same.

let the evil go on being evil and let the just go on being just -- for in due time we will see the difference between wars that god wages and wars that man wages

ProjectPeter
Jun 25th 2008, 06:28 PM
actually you pointed something good out to me that i did not look into alot-- im gonna start a new thread about it so we dont derail this one.

just notice how the spirit "rested" on them , its like temporary thats why right after it says --but they did not do it again. meaning while it rested on them they were able but after it was done resting they werent.

now i have to look into this alot farther because you gave me much to look into. so when you see the thread start feel free to share more--because of the exact difference i am unsure, but i think it has to do with writing it in the hearts and minds--and not sort of resting on someone. we get it by indwelling.
Uh... they only prophecied once. That doesn't mean nor imply that the Spirit left them. Simply that they never prophecied again.

jewel4Christ
Jun 25th 2008, 06:29 PM
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1684898#post1684898)
2. Why do you feel it is ok for a christian to shed innocent blood through wars, when the bible says it is an abomination to God?



Hey Janet, can you post the scripture that inspired this question?

Also, what is your definition of "innocent blood"?


Sure, I already did, somewhere in this thread, but it was ignored...and, in fact there are many scriptures that speak on this. Just do a word search for "innocent", and you will see what I mean, but here is the main one that speaks loud and clear:


hummm, for some reason my computer won't let me paste this verse on here, it keeps deleting the rest of my post every time I try. I will have to make a separate post to put it on, I suppose.....sometimes this computer drives me bananas.......:D

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 25th 2008, 06:31 PM
Here it is :

Proverbs 6:12-19 [ Verse 17 in Original: Hebrew (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=pr+6:17&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na&sr=1&l=en) / Greek (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=pr+6:17&it=kjv&ot=lxx&nt=na&sr=1&l=en) ]
[ Read Chapter (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=pr+6&t=kjv&st=1&new=1&l=en) | Discuss these Verses (http://www.studylight.org/forums/posting.php?mode=newtopic&f=12&subject=Proverbs+6:12-19) ] 12 A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth. 13 He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers; 14 Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth F20 discord. 15 Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy. 16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud F21 look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.If God hates it, we should not be involved in it. Innocent blood is anyone NOT individually involved in the evils of a matter, for example, in the case of war, woman and children, and even men that do not support the issues are innocent.

Does not even matter if they are not christians, they are being snuffed out, before their time....for God just may of been ready to prick their hearts with His message, but, how can He do it, if man puts them to death? God is very angry.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jun 25th 2008, 06:35 PM
David didn't build it period... even when he was old and not warring any longer. So not sure what you see written. ;)

True, but the point is that it is written that he was NOT allowed to build it until he had put the warring under his feet. God did allow him to build the true tabernacle in his heart....remember, God does not dwell in houses made by the hands of men, anyways..that is another reason we must interpret the old covenant by the new, and not the other way around. David was among the true worshippers whom worship in spirit and in truth, and, the TRUE tabernacle...ONCE he was converted.

peaceandlove,

janet

ProjectPeter
Jun 25th 2008, 06:36 PM
Here it is :

Proverbs 6:12-19 [ Verse 17 in Original: Hebrew (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=pr+6:17&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na&sr=1&l=en) / Greek (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=pr+6:17&it=kjv&ot=lxx&nt=na&sr=1&l=en) ]
[ Read Chapter (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=pr+6&t=kjv&st=1&new=1&l=en) | Discuss these Verses (http://www.studylight.org/forums/posting.php?mode=newtopic&f=12&subject=Proverbs+6:12-19) ] 12 A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth. 13 He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers; 14 Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth F20 discord. 15 Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy. 16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud F21 look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.If God hates it, we should not be involved in it. Innocent blood is anyone NOT individually involved in the evils of a matter, for example, in the case of war, woman and children, and even men that do not support the issues are innocent.

Does not even matter if they are not christians, they are being snuffed out, before their time....for God just may of been ready to prick their hearts with His message, but, how can He do it, if man puts them to death? God is very angry.

peaceandlove,

janet
Tell me Janet... what sort of killing is not sinful killing?