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manichunter
Jun 24th 2008, 09:17 PM
Question- Why do some Christians now observe certain elements of the First Covenant Torah?

This question is addressed to people who called themselves Christians in the fashion that Jesus is their Lord and Savior. Why do you now observe certain elements of the First Covenant such as the Holy Festivals and Sabbaths? I am speaking to saints who formerly observed mainstream protestant or catholic doctrines and traditions which excluded First Covenant traditions.

What motivated and influenced your change of observances and traditions? What revelation did you receive that encouraged you to see these things as relevant and sacred?
This post is not addressed to Christians who do not observe these traditions, but feel free to join in the discussion. I am trying to see how others came to this same point in their walk with Jesus as I did.

I personally see the Torah in a differently light now. I see it through the spiritual eyes now, for it is no longer of the flesh. I observe the Holy Feast Days and Sabbath in the newness of spirit, not in the letter of the old physical Torah. I now see and respect my circumcision of the heart and Torah that was spiritually written on my heart. Hence it has changed location from physical scrolls to the human spirit. Now it is to be observed as a memorial and celebration of Jesus; and, it is the means to love both God and neighbor.

I started this path in 1995 when I started to reading the history of Christianity and matching it with today’s culture. I started to see some of the reasons for all the divisions and schisms in the Body of Christ. It was caused by what Paul said was carnality. Carnality by means of human traditions, thoughts, and biases had infiltrated Christianity and became a part of various believers’ traditions. I went into active rebellion because no one could provide me with good answers as to how and why things where the way they were. Christianity had wide holes in its theology and traditions, but most leaders seem comfortable leaving things at rest. I was looking for a way out of carnality for myself. However, all I did was fine myself in trouble in the churches I attended, became more carnal myself, and became discouraged. I wanted to know the truth at all cost so I thought. Hence God led me to a church unknown to me that was heading in the same direction.

It began 1998 with the pastor teaching on paganism within Christian traditions. Then He taught on various subjects to include the need to be a community, identity, purpose, and aspects of the ancient Hebrew culture. Then in 2002 he begins to teach and observe the Jewish Festivals. This was not forced upon the members however. So, I begin to look into this matter myself through independent sources. Now, by witness and inspiration of the Holy Spirit I have come to observe and worship in the manner of the Holy Days and Sabbaths. We observe Sabbath on Friday after sundown as a community and still worship on Sunday as a community as well. I have learned elements and truths about Christ that I could have never understood independent of this transition.

Now I observe Spiritual Torah not in the old letter of the law that my carnal man was subjected to but could never accomplish, but in spirit and truth as I am now spiritual. I can in no fashion earn my own justification for salvation, righteousness, and reward; but I can emulate my Lord who is Torah in spirit as led by the Holy Spirit. I observe the Holy Days and Sabbaths as memorials with the same motivations of other Christians worship and observing Easter.

manichunter
Jun 25th 2008, 05:57 AM
One of my cities (Houston, Tx) largest churches have just begin to observe the Holy Days (Windsor Village Methodist Church). It has about 12,000 members. I totally floored and shocked as my neighbor who is member told me that their church was doing something new this year. What was funny about that to me was that a few years ago several of its members that I was crazy and behaving cultic when I said I was observing the Festivals. Now their Paster Kirby John Caldwell has went crazy as well....... I here on TBN all the time certain churches teaching on the Festivals and wanting to institute them...... I believe the boat is coming for some to jump on board or stay a on the shore. LOL

FollowTheBanner
Jun 25th 2008, 08:11 AM
Question: Do you think Christians should avoid the "forbbiden foods" of Leviticus in order to, as you say, emulate Christ?

manichunter
Jun 25th 2008, 02:34 PM
Question: Do you think Christians should avoid the "forbbiden foods" of Leviticus in order to, as you say, emulate Christ?

Not for me, though it could be healthy in some cases, I know I do not need to eat pork, blood pressure to high............. I would have to go with the Spirit told Peter own that one.

However, the Spirit says it comes down to pride. Pride of the natural Jew to boast of His law keeping and pride of the gentile believer to boast in His freedom. No carnality can please the Lord, hence I cannot be motivated by any carnality. The revelation is to be spiritual minded and trustful towards God. The spiritual minded does not consider the same considerations of the carnal man and it finds no measure to boast about.

Sold Out
Jun 25th 2008, 03:21 PM
Everything in the Old Testament, including the feasts & observances, pictured Christ in some way. We actually did a study on 'Keeping the Feasts'. I'll insert it:

God, in His wisdom, set up seven different feast days for His people to observe throughout the year. These feasts, if observed, would help His people “stay on schedule” spiritually, and thus stay right with Him. Whereas getting right with God meant sacrificing a lamb, staying right with God meant keeping the feasts. Each feast pictured something the CHRIST did or will do for humanity:


1) Feast of Passover(c. April 14) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST did for them concerning their salvation (See -I Cor 5:7)

2) Feast of Unleavened Bread(c. April 15 -22) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST did for them concerning their sanctification(See-I Cor 5:8)

3) Feast of First Fruits (c. April 16) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST did for them concerning their resurrection (See - I Cor 15:20-23 & footnote on I Jn 3:3)

4) Feast of Pentecost (c. June 3-9) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST did for them through the HOLY SPIRIT concerning the unity they were to share with all believers (See - Acts 2:1 & Eph 3:1-6)

5) Feast of Trumpets (c. October 1st) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST would do for Israel concerning their future regathering as a nation after the Rapture (See - I Thess 4:13-18)

6) Day of Atonement (c. October 10th) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST will do for Israel concerning their future restoration as a nation at CHRIST’S Second Coming (See - Mt 24:30,31,42-46)

7) Feast of Tabernacles (c. October 15-22) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST will do for Israel concerning their future Millennium as a nation after CHRIST’S Second Coming (See - Rev 3:2)

keck553
Jun 25th 2008, 04:28 PM
Not for me, though it could be healthy in some cases, I know I do not need to eat pork, blood pressure to high............. I would have to go with the Spirit told Peter own that one.

However, the Spirit says it comes down to pride. Pride of the natural Jew to boast of His law keeping and pride of the gentile believer to boast in His freedom. No carnality can please the Lord, hence I cannot be motivated by any carnality. The revelation is to be spiritual minded and trustful towards God. The spiritual minded does not consider the same considerations of the carnal man and it finds no measure to boast about.

Whether one eats or does not eat scavengers or predators is between them and God. There is no boasting or pride in obedience to God, whether it's to love God with all your heart, soul and strength and love your neighbor or whether it's abstaining from pork. In Christ we are all led by The Holy Spirit in our own understandings, teachings and capacity. We are not set free to disobey God, we are set free to obey God without the yoke of condemnation.

By the way, the teaching about Peter eating food that wasn't Kashrut is a false teaching. Peter's vision had nothing to do with diet restriction, if you bring in the entire context of the scripture.

Cornelius is a Gentile who came to believe in the God of Israel, namely in the person of Jesus. But the reality is that Peter did not eat anything and God wasn't giving him a vision about eating food at all, nor was He repealing His Torah. God does not change.

Peter saw a sheet coming down from heaven and inside it were "animals of all kinds" (not bacon and eggs). The text specifies about birds and reptiles, which would include sparrows, crows, turtles, snakes, geckos and many other types that I double we would find tasty in any sense.

The God tells Peter to kill and eat anything he liked in the vision and Peter refused. Why? Because Peter was a Jew and remaind a Jew and kept the Torah as Jesus did, as all apostles, including Paul did.

Then God makes a point "What I have made clean, do not call common". Now I know how the Greeks and bacon lovers make this fit their diet, but again, these were Jews living in a Jewish culture where pork simply wasn't considered food any more than a plastic lid would be food to us (even a lot of Greeks were vegetarians).

So what did God mean anyway? Symbolism. Common in scripture. What do unclean animals represent in the sheet? Gentiles. How do I know that? Because it's the CONTEXT of the story. It's about Peter taking the Gospel to Cornelius and his family and the Gentiles who went to the synagogue to learn about Jesus.

Peter later talks about the vision and says it taught him something - no it didn't teach him to break Torah, eat baby back ribs, and renounce his identity. It taught him that men from the nations are acceptable to God.

God's not doing something new here. Just consult the prophets and Psalms. God always have accepted Gentiles. Peter didn't understand this. He and others thought Jesus was just for Jews and converts. God didn't repeal anything. God does not change. But the anti-Gentile sentiments in the first century Jews were not a teaching from God. God never commanded that there be a Court of Gentiles in the Temple. Jews had the idea that is was unclean to eat with Gentiles, or even be under their roof. This is the false teaching and the man made ordinances that Jesus Himself was so angry about that men put their ordinances before God's ordinances.

All God did with Peter was eductate him on His way, and remove his man made Judasim blinders.

diffangle
Jun 25th 2008, 04:56 PM
So what did God mean anyway? Symbolism. Common in scripture. What do unclean animals represent in the sheet? Gentiles. How do I know that? Because it's the CONTEXT of the story. It's about Peter taking the Gospel to Cornelius and his family and the Gentiles who went to the synagogue to learn about Jesus.


I totally agree with everything you've said. Verse 28 shows us what the vision was about...

28 Then he said to them, “You know how unlawful(only unlawful according to man-made Jewish tradition... not YHWH's Law) it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 25th 2008, 05:12 PM
There is much to be learned when scripture is read in context (in regards to Peter's dream). ;) Manichunter, I agree that many are beginning to consider the Feasts of the LORD that would never have considered them a decade ago. We began enjoyimg this blessing from God about 2 and a half years ago, thus this is our third full season on the Feasts. We had celebrated Passover for about four or five years before we began to consider the rest of the feasts and Sabbath. I believe there are a lot more followers of Messiah doing so now than even ten or twenty years ago.

Mograce2U
Jun 25th 2008, 05:27 PM
Soldout,

5) Feast of Trumpets (c. October 1st) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST would do for Israel concerning their future regathering as a nation after the Rapture (See - I Thess 4:13-18)

6) Day of Atonement (c. October 10th) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST will do for Israel concerning their future restoration as a nation at CHRIST’S Second Coming (See - Mt 24:30,31,42-46)

7) Feast of Tabernacles (c. October 15-22) - This Feast was intended to remind the people of God what CHRIST will do for Israel concerning their future Millennium as a nation after CHRIST’S Second Coming (See - Rev 3:2)This is the problem I see with how those who think we ought to celebrate these feasts in honor of Christ, do not see that He has in fact fulfilled them all. And it is because they have adopted a tradition from those who share the same blindness, that they put it off into the future. Yet this is how the unbelievers who say Messiah has not come yet look upon all the feasts. Being partially blind is not the best place to be.

(1 Th 5:9-10 KJV) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, {10} Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Are not we yet among those who are awake? Are we not living with Christ dwelling in our midst? If the wrath has come as predicted upon those to whom it was appointed, then this hope is already ours.

(Rom 5:11 KJV) And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

(Lev 23:42-43 KJV) Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths: {43} That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

In this time when Israel dwelt in booths in the wilderness, no feasts had yet been given to them to celebrate. They were not even offering sacrifices yet according to the Levitical laws. Rather they were dwelling in the presence of God who was guiding them and met them in the tabernacle which Moses made. This is what we now have in Christ with the Holy Spirit dwelling in us - the temple of God.

Israel however was to look back upon this time when they came into the land. Which if you recall God then gave them judges to guide them - which they rejected when they asked for a king instead. They did not want God to rule over them. This is why they needed to remember this time and the feast was therefore given for that purpose. There is no way this feast is a "memorial" for some future time for the Church!

SpokenFor
Jun 25th 2008, 05:40 PM
I would really love more information about observing these feasts/holy days. I work as a postpartum doula and my most recent clients were Orthodox Jews. I enjoyed the time I spent with them and they even invited me to partake in Sabbath dinner with them.

It really got me thinking about how gentile Christians are pretty lazy and unwilling to sacrifice. How many of us would be willing to give up our cell phones/tv/computers for 24 hours each and every week?

The last week I was helping this couple, they were observing a holiday (I forget the name of) where they were to stay up all night with family and friends just to discuss the scriptures. Wow! What if Christians did that!

Being Orthodox Jews permeates every thing that they do. An outsider cannot help but know upon first glance at them and upon observing all that they do and say that they are Orthodox Jews. Is my Christianity as obvious to others? I think that adding some of the observations you mention would do a great deal in focusing my attention on Christ and making Him more and more a part of the mundane of my life.

Please let me know if you have any websites or books you recommend. Then please pray for me to find the best way to proceed as my husband is not a Christian.

Christina

Matt14
Jun 25th 2008, 06:18 PM
Soldout,
This is the problem I see with how those who think we ought to celebrate these feasts in honor of Christ, do not see that He has in fact fulfilled them all. And it is because they have adopted a tradition from those who share the same blindness, that they put it off into the future. Yet this is how the unbelievers who say Messiah has not come yet look upon all the feasts. Being partially blind is not the best place to be.

A hearty "amen" from me.

It seems Paul's letter to the Galatians has been taken off the "required reading list" of many who call themselves Christians.

-

keck553
Jun 25th 2008, 06:27 PM
A hearty "amen" from me.

It seems Paul's letter to the Galatians has been taken off the "required reading list" of many who call themselves Christians.



Paul was a Torah observent Jew all the way to his death. Perhaps you'd like to condemn him for his weak faith?

Condemnation and judgement is not a Christian virtue. Or is that no longer 'required reading'?

You don't know the hearts of myself or these people. I would never presume to judge your faith and obedience to God.

I'd be happy to discuss Galations, perhaps we can learn something together.

HisLeast
Jun 25th 2008, 06:33 PM
oh for crying out loud....


:pray: soon Lord... soon :pray:

Studyin'2Show
Jun 25th 2008, 06:46 PM
I would really love more information about observing these feasts/holy days. I work as a postpartum doula and my most recent clients were Orthodox Jews. I enjoyed the time I spent with them and they even invited me to partake in Sabbath dinner with them.

It really got me thinking about how gentile Christians are pretty lazy and unwilling to sacrifice. How many of us would be willing to give up our cell phones/tv/computers for 24 hours each and every week?

The last week I was helping this couple, they were observing a holiday (I forget the name of) where they were to stay up all night with family and friends just to discuss the scriptures. Wow! What if Christians did that!

Being Orthodox Jews permeates every thing that they do. An outsider cannot help but know upon first glance at them and upon observing all that they do and say that they are Orthodox Jews. Is my Christianity as obvious to others? I think that adding some of the observations you mention would do a great deal in focusing my attention on Christ and making Him more and more a part of the mundane of my life.

Please let me know if you have any websites or books you recommend. Then please pray for me to find the best way to proceed as my husband is not a Christian.

ChristinaFor me it was a longing that when fulfilled was better than I could have imagined. Many will say that we are free on this side of the cross and I wholeheartedly agree. But as keck553 said, we are also free to obey without condemnation. Many will also point out that all these things were a foreshadowing of Messiah, and again I completely agree. I was aware of that fact before I began to observe the Feasts but after I began observing them, so much became even more clear. We are creatures of habit. We learn by doing and God set in place for us an opportunity each year for us to relearn, repeat, and remember Messiah and every facet of Him. These things without understanding, though quite interesting as you observed with the Jewish family you were helping, are nothing. Though they go through the motions, unfortunately they have no understanding of Messiah and how He fits in to all these things. But these things WITH knowledge of Messiah has been amazing for me and my family! :pp As for a website, I don't know but I would suggest reading the Bible. Leviticus 23 is a good place to begin. ;) God bless you as you seek! :)

Mograce2U
Jun 25th 2008, 06:51 PM
Hi Denise,

But these things WITH knowledge of Messiah has been amazing for me and my family! And on that we can agree!

RabbiKnife
Jun 25th 2008, 08:30 PM
Paul was a Torah observent Jew all the way to his death. Perhaps you'd like to condemn him for his weak faith?

Condemnation and judgement is not a Christian virtue. Or is that no longer 'required reading'?

You don't know the hearts of myself or these people. I would never presume to judge your faith and obedience to God.

I'd be happy to discuss Galations, perhaps we can learn something together.

Paul was not a Torah observant Jew all the way to his death, unless you believe that he taught others a different Gospel than that which he himself lived.

keck553
Jun 25th 2008, 09:02 PM
Please support your statement with scripture. Thank you.

manichunter
Jun 25th 2008, 09:26 PM
Paul was not a Torah observant Jew all the way to his death, unless you believe that he taught others a different Gospel than that which he himself lived.


1Co 5:7,8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+5:8&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) 7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+5:7&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+5:8&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Ac 20:16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+20:16&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

1Co 16:8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+16:8&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -But I will tarry at Ephesus until Pentecost.

Ac 21:26 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21:26&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them. Ac 16: 1-5 1 Then he came to Derbe and Lystra. And behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a certain Jewish woman who believed, but his father was Greek. 2He was well spoken of by the brethren who were at Lystra and Iconium. 3Paul wanted to have him go on with him. And he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in that region, for they all knew that his father was Greek. 4And as they went through the cities, they delivered to them the decrees to keep, which were determined by the apostles and elders at Jerusalem. 5So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and increased in number daily.

This looks like Paul is observing Torah and using it is a time line schedule as well. Yes Paul observed spiritual torah as I provided in my post Spiritual torah.

The torah has been around before creation. It was not invented for mankind. Torah is God, God is Torah as Jesus is the Word, and the Word is Jesus.

Some people miss the whole picture out of carnality or learned logic. The Torah is eternal, spiritual, and benelovent. It was given to man before Mt Sinai. Possibly Adam I would think. Why do I say this. They knew not to murder, commit adultery, and lie. They offered ceremonial sacrifices in the proper manner and some did not. They knew the distinct between unclean and clean animals. God judge Sodom for the sins of sexual immorality and the rest of the Earth because He convicted them of sin. Would it be lawful for God to do as such without the people being legally liable.

Man has always had laws to governed and restrain his behavior, and with the state of the world, I do not see this ending anytime soon. Scripture say that God gave the ruler to keep law and order. I as a police officer had to lock up fellow saints for violating the law. Even the Hebrews threw it away a few times. It was given to Israel by covenant to the make them a physical nation as a type for the spiritual nation to come. As before, mankind is failing to grasp torah, and its new spiritual existence. God is Torah and Paul knew this.

keck553
Jun 25th 2008, 09:55 PM
We are all here to learn the character of God. From my point of view, this is not an ego contest among men (and women). We all strive for the truth, to allow God to sanctify us and to reveal Himself to us progressively. There is no need for emotionalism or posturing when discussing God's Word. All who repent and call on the name of Jesus (or Yeshua) as their personal Lord and Saviour have the assurance of eternal life. These are NOT salvation issues, so please I ask kindly to leave out the rhetoric and judgements regarding Christian worthiness. We are worthy before God through the blood of Christ/Messiah and for NO OTHER REASON. That said, I would like to discuss what I have studied.

I'll provide scripture that supports that Paul (properly Sha'ul) continued to celebrate the feasts and continued Torah AFTER the death and resurrection of our Saviour.

Probably most convincing to me is the very last recorded words said by Paul in Acts 28:17 he said, "Men and brethren, I have committed nothing against the people, or the customs of our fathers..." He is speaking to a Jewish audience. Using the plural "our fathers" is speaking of the customs of Judaism. The word "customs" is the Greek word "ethos" which means customs or manners that would identify ar betray one as belonging to a specific ethnic group. Not only did he continue as a Torah observant Jew all his life, his concluding arguments reveal him to have practiced within the confines of Phariseeic Judaism up until his final days in Rome!

Romans 8:3-8

"For what the Torah could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin , condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the Torah might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the Torah of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

When we as believers recieve the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God moves us to forgiveness, compassion, understanding, good works, hope, faithfulness, joy, peace, self control, ect. The Torah becomes fulfilled in us because then we delight in The Torah of God according to the inward man

Rom 7:22 For in my inner self I completely agree with God's Torah;

- and our desire is to be obedient. The obedience however comes as we deepen our relationship with God and He moves us to Love Him and the people around us unconditionally.

Act 21:20 On hearing it, they praised God; but they also said to him, "You see, brother, how many tens of thousands of believers there are among the Judeans, and they are all zealots for the Torah.

having been accused of teaching Jews to abandon the Torah, Paul takes some to the temple with him to observe purification rites in order to prove he is 'living in obedience to Torah."

Act 24:17 "After an absence of several years, I came to Yerushalayim to bring a charitable gift to my nation and to offer sacrifices.
Act 24:18 It was in connection with the latter that they found me in the Temple. I had been ceremonially purified, I was not with a crowd, and I was not causing a disturbance.

Paul is testifying that his intent was to present offerings and that he was ceremonially clean (in accordance with Torah).

Rom 3:31 Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah.

Thsi supports James when he tells us "Faith without works is dead". Faith in God establishes obedience in a believer. At the thought of nullifying Torah as the way a believer in Jesus should live thier life Paul says "May it never be!".

We should also be mindful of what Paul's contemporary (Peter) said about him:

2Pe 3:15 And think of our Lord's patience as deliverance, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you, following the wisdom God gave him.
2Pe 3:16 Indeed, he speaks about these things in all his letters. They contain some things that are hard to understand, things which the uninstructed and unstable distort, to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Now Paul understood all scripture in the Torah scrolls, the Prophets and the Writings. He discipled under one of the greatest teachers - Gamiliel. We cannot have a complete grasp of Paul's writings without his clear grasp of the scriptures of Torah, Prophets and Writings, or we are destined to interpret them as what's good for our way, to fit the lifestyle we chose to comfort in.

At the very least, one should study the foundation of Paul's writings and understand the Hebraic context of them.

If Paul had actually taught replacement theology, why would anyone be happy to allow his testimony to contradict the clear and unamimous testimony of Moses (Deu 30: 1-10, Isaiah 2:1-3, 56:6-7. 66:21-23), Jeremiah (33:17-18), Ezekiel (45:17, 46:13) and Zecheriah (14:16-19)? What is it about Paul that would make him more important than any of these prophets?

The truth is that Paul is not inconsistant with God's Prophets.

The Old Testament speaks of our future, that plainly in the end times, Torah will be restored. The Temple will be rebuilt, Shabbat will be kept along with all the festivals. Did God lie about this? Does God change any of His promises or prophecys? If He does, what good is His promise to us in Christ?

One cannot overide ALL of this with a few statements from Paul taken out of context.

To make a statement that I or anyone am not free in Christ to honor God's shabbat or His guidance is the same attack based on the same humanistic legalism that Pharisees practiced.

Matt14
Jun 26th 2008, 08:02 PM
Paul was a Torah observent Jew all the way to his death. Perhaps you'd like to condemn him for his weak faith?

Condemnation and judgement is not a Christian virtue. Or is that no longer 'required reading'?

You don't know the hearts of myself or these people. I would never presume to judge your faith and obedience to God.

I'd be happy to discuss Galations, perhaps we can learn something together.
Paul was observant of traditions and customs of his people, usually so as not to offend.

Are you Jewish? If not, these traditions and customs are not your traditions and customs. If you are a Gentile, you are adding things not commanded by Christ, if you seek to observe the Law of Moses.

Yes, I would be glad to study the book of Galatians with you. But be forewarned, I hold the same view of the Law in regard to Gentiles as Paul did. :D

-

Ta-An
Jun 26th 2008, 08:17 PM
Because I know the NT.... when I went back to read the OT, I found Yeshua living in the OT.... I celebrate His fulfillment of the Feasts.

Matt14
Jun 26th 2008, 08:35 PM
Because I know the NT.... when I went back to read the OT, I found Yeshua living in the OT.... I celebrate His fulfillment of the Feasts.
The only observances commanded of the Christian is the observance of the Lord's supper as a memorial of His death.

Luk 22:17 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, "Take this and divide it among yourselves;
Luk 22:18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
Luk 22:19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
Luk 22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

The Jews celebrated feasts and festivals that looked forward to the Messiah. To return to the OT and look forward is to say we are still waiting for fulfillment.

To observe the Lord's supper is to acknowledge the presence of the kingdom, and to remember and proclaim His death, until He comes (1 Cor. 11:26).

God bless!

-

Studyin'2Show
Jun 26th 2008, 09:15 PM
Paul was observant of traditions and customs of his people, usually so as not to offend.

Are you Jewish? If not, these traditions and customs are not your traditions and customs. If you are a Gentile, you are adding things not commanded by Christ, if you seek to observe the Law of Moses.

Yes, I would be glad to study the book of Galatians with you. But be forewarned, I hold the same view of the Law in regard to Gentiles as Paul did. :D

-Can you point out the scripture where Paul says that he only observed the Feasts for show? :hmm: BTW, I believe I hold the same view as Paul regarding the Law in regard to both Gentile and Jew. ;)

VerticalReality
Jun 26th 2008, 09:18 PM
When Jesus said, "It is finished . . . "

He was right.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 26th 2008, 09:24 PM
When Jesus said, "It is finished . . . "

He was right.I guess we just may not agree on what 'IT' is. :dunno:

keck553
Jun 26th 2008, 09:42 PM
Paul observed Torah so as not to offend? Really? A awesome disciple of Jesus living a lie so as not to offend? Right. Paul offended the Jews enough to have them wanting his head from Jerusalem all the way to Rome. And you think he didn't want to offend? You really think any of Jesus' disciples hid the truth so as not to offend?

Of course the Torah is not Jesus. No one here worships a creation. The Torah speaks to the character of Jesus.

So Torah is not commanded by Christ? Please show us the scripture that says we are sinners for adding God's commands to God's commands by obeying God. Are you adding things by celebrating the 4th of July? Are you seeking the law of Geroge Washington?

Now please find me scripture where GOD (Jesus is God) commands Gentiles not to obseerve Torah.

Even though Paul is not God, you're free to cite where he teaches Gentiles NOT to be Torah observant in faith with Christ. I'd really like to see the scripture.

Brother Mark
Jun 26th 2008, 09:47 PM
Of course the Torah is not Jesus. No one here worships a creation. The Torah speaks to the character of Jesus.

The OP said the Torah was Jesus.


Now please find me scripture where GOD (Jesus is God) commands Gentiles not to obseerve Torah.

Even though Paul is not God, you're free to cite where he teaches Gentiles NOT to be Torah observant in faith with Christ. I'd really like to see the scripture.

Just to be clear, you do accept all of the NT as the written word of God, right?

Not just gentiles, but even believing Jews no longer are under the Torah. It is a shadow and very useful. We live in the newness of the spirit of the law not in the oldness of the letter.

The old covenant and it's ordinances and regulations have faded away.

Heb 8:13-9:2

13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

9 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary.
NASB

We no longer need the earthly sanctuary for worship as did the Jews of the OT. We now worship in Spirit and truth. We learn how to be a priest from the OT but the law has been changed because the priesthood has been changed.

Heb 7:12
12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
NASB

manichunter
Jun 27th 2008, 04:06 AM
Paul observed Torah so as not to offend? Really? A awesome disciple of Jesus living a lie so as not to offend? Right. Paul offended the Jews enough to have them wanting his head from Jerusalem all the way to Rome. And you think he didn't want to offend? You really think any of Jesus' disciples hid the truth so as not to offend?

Of course the Torah is not Jesus. No one here worships a creation. The Torah speaks to the character of Jesus.

So Torah is not commanded by Christ? Please show us the scripture that says we are sinners for adding God's commands to God's commands by obeying God. Are you adding things by celebrating the 4th of July? Are you seeking the law of Geroge Washington?

Now please find me scripture where GOD (Jesus is God) commands Gentiles not to obseerve Torah.

Even though Paul is not God, you're free to cite where he teaches Gentiles NOT to be Torah observant in faith with Christ. I'd really like to see the scripture.

This where we disagree. Torah is Scripture. Scripture is the Word of God.
The Word of God is Jesus. Jesus is the Word........... I can spiritual concluded that whatever was inspired and God breathed is Jesus....... Torah was God breathed. Yes its speaks of His character. But who cannot separate a person from his character. God is love, right. He also acts with love. Why, because not only is it his character, but who he is.

Brother Mark
Jun 27th 2008, 04:32 AM
This where we disagree. Torah is Scripture. Scripture is the Word of God.
The Word of God is Jesus. Jesus is the Word........... I can spiritual concluded that whatever was inspired and God breathed is Jesus....... Torah was God breathed. Yes its speaks of His character. But who cannot separate a person from his character. God is love, right. He also acts with love. Why, because not only is it his character, but who he is.

The bible is not Jesus. For instance, Jesus look what Jesus told the Pharisees.


John 5:39
39 "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me;
NASB

Neither the Torah nor the rest of the scriptures can save. They speak of him. Jesus is the word that proceeds from God's heart and expresses it fully as himself. However, he is not the Torah. The Torah cannot save as it is powerless to make one righteous. Jesus, is fully powerful to make another righteous.

Torah is not God and God is not the Torah.

Naphal
Jun 27th 2008, 05:29 AM
Torah is not God and God is not the Torah.

Right.

God created the Torah, or the Law. To place a created thing equal to God is blasphemy.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 27th 2008, 10:43 AM
Right.

God created the Torah, or the Law. To place a created thing equal to God is blasphemy.I think those who use this analogy are not saying we should put a Bible on the altar and bow down to the book. That's where I think there's some confusion in this. Manichunter seems to be saying that it is about character not about worshiping the pages of a book. This why this is like the proverbial 'tree falls in the woods' question that is better left alone. It's philosophical and completely depends on perspective; how each of us is looking at different things; apples and oranges. :dunno:
Torah was God breathed. Yes its speaks of His character. But who cannot separate a person from his character. God is love, right. He also acts with love. Why, because not only is it his character, but who he is.

manichunter
Jun 27th 2008, 12:16 PM
The bible is not Jesus. For instance, Jesus look what Jesus told the Pharisees.


John 5:39
39 "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me;
NASB

Neither the Torah nor the rest of the scriptures can save. They speak of him. Jesus is the word that proceeds from God's heart and expresses it fully as himself. However, he is not the Torah. The Torah cannot save as it is powerless to make one righteous. Jesus, is fully powerful to make another righteous.

Torah is not God and God is not the Torah.

I did not say that the Bible was Jesus. I said the rhema was Jesus. The living word, not the things made by flesh and blood. You are purposely not reading and understanding Jn 1:1. In the beginning was the Word/Jesus (the living word of God) who came to us as Word/Jesus in the flesh (the living Word of God manifested in the flesh) who was always the God the living Word (God the living Word).

Studyin'2Show
Jun 27th 2008, 12:48 PM
You are purposely not reading and understanding Jn 1:1.It's just a misunderstanding of terms which is why I pointed out that the way the topic was being address is like discussing apples and oranges. I don't think anyone here is 'purposely' not reading or understanding. This is a volatile enough topic so let's try to stay away from making personal comments and just stick to discussing the issues. ;)

God Bless!

eliyahu137
Jun 27th 2008, 01:38 PM
I have been leading my family in observing Hannukah (in a New Covenant conscious fashion) for a few years now. We did Pesah this year. We want to observe some sort of Shabbat, but that is not possible right now. And for the record, we believe that there is nothing wrong with a believers observing Christmas, Easter (Resurrection day to us) or birthdays. They are all glorifying to God if you do them in a way that acknowledges and honors the Lord. They are not "pagan" as many people claim. I have researched these things to find the real truth.

Anyhow, I am encouraged by the trend of Christians embracing more Torah traditions. It has many blessings in it. But, as with the first century, we also have the larger group of us gentile believers having its share of "Judiazers." Judaizers try to add Torah observance to the salvation equation. Paul was clearly against adding any sort of works to the way of salvation. Gentiles were called to remain Gentiles upon coming to faith in the gospel, 1 Cor 7:18.

These people have plenty of counterpart "Christianizers" out there to contend with too. Those who I call "Christianizers" are the people who try to argue that any semblance of Torah observance is a dangerous and carnal, a mistake that undermines the gospel message. They see anything remotley associated with Judaism or the Old Testament as antithetical to the New Testament. This is, of course, completely misinformed and eronious doctrine. It makes out Torah-less Christianity to be another new "law" that everyone must follow in order to be "free" in Christ.

There is a side to this that I would like to make people aware of if this is all fresh to them. If you choose to embrace any Old Covenant traditions out of complete freedom in Messiah, you may encounter resistance and rejection from others who do not see why you do those things. It can be a painful revelation of the hearts of others :(. I have personally been ostracised by my own parents and other family members and certain dear friends for doing things like taking a Nazarite vow for a season, or simply celebrating what the Lord has done during Hannukah. Anything new or different, especially anything Jewish, is often looked at as carnal, cultish, adding works to the gospel (they say "you are going back under the law!"), going overboard, converting to Judaism, etc.

This will quite possibly be a part of life for any one who does freely choose to observe anything from the old covenant. It is a character building experience, if you let it be. I just encourage everyone who can relate to this to follow our Lord. whose presence is freedom. He is always outside the camp. He is always the pioneer. He will be close to us when we step out in faith for his glory. May the church continue to grow into a body that can truley say that there God is the God of Israel indeed. This does not mean that everyone should observe the Torah traditions. It does mean that there must be a welcomed place for that in the church. It does mean that we will one day be able to be a more effective witness of the Jewish Messiah, who is who he is still today- the King of the Jews.

Brother Mark
Jun 27th 2008, 03:15 PM
I did not say that the Bible was Jesus. I said the rhema was Jesus. The living word, not the things made by flesh and blood. You are purposely not reading and understanding Jn 1:1. In the beginning was the Word/Jesus (the living word of God) who came to us as Word/Jesus in the flesh (the living Word of God manifested in the flesh) who was always the God the living Word (God the living Word).

Then what did you mean when you wrote...



God is Torah and Paul knew this. For Torah is not rhema. Oh, and the word used in John 1:1 is logos. Can we agree, it's not talking about the scriptures?

Ta-An
Jun 27th 2008, 04:54 PM
The only observances commanded of the Christian is the observance of the Lord's supper as a memorial of His death.

Luk 22:17 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, "Take this and divide it among yourselves;
Luk 22:18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
Luk 22:19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
Luk 22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

The Jews celebrated feasts and festivals that looked forward to the Messiah. To return to the OT and look forward is to say we are still waiting for fulfillment.

To observe the Lord's supper is to acknowledge the presence of the kingdom, and to remember and proclaim His death, until He comes (1 Cor. 11:26).

God bless!

-So do you celebrate Easter :hmm:(Fulfilled Passover )
Do you celebrate Pentecost (Fulfilled Shavuot)
I am sure as a Christian you do??

threebigrocks
Jun 27th 2008, 05:39 PM
When Jesus said, "It is finished . . . "

He was right.

It is finished, meaning that the purpose for which Christ came, to die and rise again, was completed. Christ followed through and stayed within the will of the Father. His dying to and in the flesh left His resurrection of the flesh inevitable as the Father promised.


I did not say that the Bible was Jesus. I said the rhema was Jesus. The living word, not the things made by flesh and blood. You are purposely not reading and understanding Jn 1:1. In the beginning was the Word/Jesus (the living word of God) who came to us as Word/Jesus in the flesh (the living Word of God manifested in the flesh) who was always the God the living Word (God the living Word).

manichunter, you already have a thread to discuss this topic going. Please keep this topic within the context of the appropriate thread.

Matt14
Jun 27th 2008, 08:01 PM
So do you celebrate Easter :hmm:(Fulfilled Passover )
Do you celebrate Pentecost (Fulfilled Shavuot)
I am sure as a Christian you do??
No. There is no authorization in the New Testament to observe Easter or Pentecost.

Do you think that all Christians must observe these non-Christian festivals in order to be holy to God?

Studyin'2Show
Jun 27th 2008, 08:44 PM
No. There is no authorization in the New Testament to observe Easter or Pentecost.

Do you think that all Christians must observe these non-Christian festivals in order to be holy to God?Christ observed these festivals (the Feasts of the LORD) so why would doing the things He did be considered non-Christian? :hmm: Doesn't the word 'Christian' mean imitator of Christ?

Matt14
Jun 27th 2008, 09:09 PM
Christ observed these festivals (the Feasts of the LORD) so why would doing the things He did be considered non-Christian? :hmm: Doesn't the word 'Christian' mean imitator of Christ?
Jesus was Jewish, and lived under the Law of Moses.

Most of us are not Jewish, and do not live under the Law of Moses.

Why would you wear a yoke around your neck that not even the Jews who lived under the Law could bear?

-

Brother Mark
Jun 27th 2008, 09:23 PM
Jesus was Jewish, and lived under the Law of Moses.

Most of us are not Jewish, and do not live under the Law of Moses.

Why would you wear a yoke around your neck that not even the Jews who lived under the Law could bear?

-

I am not convinced the feast are from the Law of Moses per se. In other words, while they are in the Law of Moses, I think there is more to them that saying they are unchristian.

Each believer must participate in passover or he will go to hell. For instance, the passover Lamb's blood needs to be on the door posts of your heart. His flesh must be eaten and inside of you.

The feast of unleavened bread is kept when we begin the process of purging sin from our lives.

Pentecost is where we become filled with the Holy Spirit.

So the Feast of the Lord can also be seen in Christians as well as in the OT.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 27th 2008, 11:28 PM
Jesus was Jewish, and lived under the Law of Moses.

Most of us are not Jewish, and do not live under the Law of Moses.

Why would you wear a yoke around your neck that not even the Jews who lived under the Law could bear?

-Imitating Christ. That's what it is. There is no more Jew or Gentile in Messiah so why do you need the separation? Why do you feel celebrating is some sort of yoke? My children love it when a feast comes around! It's a blessing! :)

God Bless!

Matt14
Jun 28th 2008, 05:25 AM
Imitating Christ. That's what it is. There is no more Jew or Gentile in Messiah so why do you need the separation? Why do you feel celebrating is some sort of yoke? My children love it when a feast comes around! It's a blessing! :)

God Bless!
Why celebrate in Law of Moses ways, when Christ has nailed it all to the cross, and commanded us to observe one memorial for Him: the Lord Supper?

ShirleyFord
Jun 28th 2008, 09:18 AM
I am not convinced the feast are from the Law of Moses per se. In other words, while they are in the Law of Moses, I think there is more to them that saying they are unchristian.

Each believer must participate in passover or he will go to hell. For instance, the passover Lamb's blood needs to be on the door posts of your heart. His flesh must be eaten and inside of you.

The feast of unleavened bread is kept when we begin the process of purging sin from our lives.

Pentecost is where we become filled with the Holy Spirit.

So the Feast of the Lord can also be seen in Christians as well as in the OT.

God called His feasts sabbaths and were sabbaths as the 7th day weekly sabbath was.

Ex 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep:


God's purpose for all of sabbaths:


for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

All of the sabbaths reveal Christ, Israel's coming promised Messiah from the weekly sabbath to the 7 yearly sabbath to the year of the sabbath of the land every 7 years to the year of jubilee every 50 years.

The Levitcal priesthood keep the sabbaths by working. The rest of Israel kept the sabbaths by staying home and doing no work with the exception of going to Jerusalem 3 times a year when males had to present themselves to the Lord as they were examined by the priests . The females went also.

God's numbering systym for counting between the sabbaths was by the: 7th day of the week sabbath: 7 days, 7 weeks, 7 weeks, 7 years, 49 years. And there were 7 yearly sabbaths.

7 yearly sabbaths:

The Feast of Unleavened Bread was 7 days at the beginning of the year which included 3 sabbaths during those 7 days representing Jesus's death, burial and resurrection:

1. passover
2. feast of passover
3. feast of firstfruit

After the feast of firstfruit was finished at the end of the 7th day of feast of unleavened bread, Moses told them tount from the feast of firstfruit 50 days from feast of firstfruit 49 weekly 7th day sabbath days. Then the next day would be the 50th day for the feast of Penticost.

And as we study God's law of the sabbaths we can see God'scounting system God gave the children of Israel for all of His sabbath feasts.


1 year land sabbath every 7 years - from the 6th year of the 7th yearly sabbath, the feast of tabernacles to the next feast of tabernacle, the 7th and last feast of the year - the 1 year jubilee every 50th year which began during the year at the feast of attonement, the 10 day of the 7th month - the 6th yearly sabbath of the 7 feasts each yea - in the year of the 49th sabbath of the land which would end on the 21st day of the 7th month ending another year. And then jubilee would continue the following year and end the following year on the feast of atonement the 6th yearly feast of the year.



Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

Lev 23:38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

Lev 25:8 And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years.

Lev 26:2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Lev 26:34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.

Lev 26:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=3&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.

Lev 26:43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.

diffangle
Jun 28th 2008, 12:38 PM
Why celebrate in Law of Moses ways, when Christ has nailed it all to the cross, and commanded us to observe one memorial for Him: the Lord Supper?
Where do the Scriptures say that YHWHs Law or His Feasts were nailed to the cross?

Ta-An
Jun 28th 2008, 01:00 PM
No. There is no authorization in the New Testament to observe Easter or Pentecost. So as a Christian , you personally don't :hmm: That's a first :idea:


Do you think that all Christians must observe these non-Christian festivals in order to be holy to God? These are Feast of the L-rd.... not non-Christian festivals... :D nor Jewish festivals.... yet : A feast of the L_rd is a "..holy convocations.."
Does keeping a Feast make me holy... is that what you ask?? :hmm:
I am not even gonna answer you :D because this is not what this thread is all about..... yet ... are you holy Matt?? What makes you holy?? :D

Matt14
Jun 28th 2008, 02:27 PM
Where do the Scriptures say that YHWHs Law or His Feasts were nailed to the cross?

The feasts were revealed under the Law of Moses, and most were prefigurements of something that would be revealed in Christ. To celebrate them now is to imply that we are still looking forward to the Messiah.

Christ DID nail the Law of Moses to the cross, and we are freed from it.

Col 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

He has broken down the distinction between Jew and Gentile:

Eph 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Eph 2:16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

What was it that made the Jews a distinct people religiously? The keeping of the Law, including the traditional feasts.

To observe such feasts and festivals religiously today is to put yourself back under the tutor, in effect proclaiming that you are still waiting on Messiah.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

If you've been brought to faith, why go backwards to the tutor?

Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

If you are in Christ Jesus, you have been freed from the Law.

Rom 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

The types and shadows are passed, and the reality in Christ is here. Why dabble in types and shadows once again, as if Christ had not come?

-

Studyin'2Show
Jun 28th 2008, 02:29 PM
Why celebrate in Law of Moses ways, when Christ has nailed it all to the cross, and commanded us to observe one memorial for Him: the Lord Supper?I celebrate them in imitation of the fact that He celebrated them. I want to be like Him, even in the holy days He recognized. ;) BTW, I see nowhere in scripture where it says that God's Feasts have been nailed to the cross. :hmm: They are not the "ordinances that were AGAINST us". :confused How do you see a celebration of Him as some sort of burden that was against us?

diffangle
Jun 28th 2008, 02:30 PM
Christ DID nail the Law of Moses to the cross, and we are freed from it.

Col 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Where in that verse does it say Law? :hmm:

diffangle
Jun 28th 2008, 02:35 PM
The types and shadows are passed, and the reality in Christ is here.

I see where Paul says that the shadows haven't passed yet, we're still waiting for them "to come"...

Col 2:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&verse=17&version=kjv#17)Which are(not was) a shadow of things to come(future tense); but the body [is] of Christ.

We are still waiting for the fulfillment of His second coming.

Matt14
Jun 28th 2008, 02:47 PM
So as a Christian , you personally don't :hmm: That's a first :idea:

It may be the first you have heard, but around the world there are Christians practicing only what was taught or exemplified by the church of the New Testament. There are MANY Christians who do not celebrate Easter or Christmas as religious observances.


These are Feast of the L-rd.... not non-Christian festivals... :D nor Jewish festivals.... yet : A feast of the L_rd is a "..holy convocations.."

If you can show me under the New Covenant in the blood of Christ where Christians are commanded to observe the actual feasts, I would gladly do so. If they are found under the Law of Moses and not the Law of Christ, then they ARE "Jewish festivals," festivals meant for the nation of Israel, and not Gentiles.


Does keeping a Feast make me holy... is that what you ask?? :hmm:
I am not even gonna answer you :D because this is not what this thread is all about.....

I think you should answer that question, because that is the point of the whole topic. If you say observing these feasts makes you holy, then you have become estranged from Christ, and you are fallen from grace.

I don't mean to be harsh, but that is the truth that Paul speaks in Gal. 5:4.


yet ... are you holy Matt?? What makes you holy?? :D

Holiness is a cooperative venture between God and man. He establishes our hearts in holiness (1 Thess. 3:13), but we are also to pursue holiness ourselves, without which no one will see the Lord (Heb. 2:14).

If we are growing in Christ, we grow in holiness each day. Therefore, what makes me to grow in holiness is to seek the Lord's will, and to strive to follow Jesus, and to pray for strength and for the Spirit to establish my heart.

ACCM, without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb. 11:6). Paul says that whatever is not from faith, is sin (Rom. 14:23). He also said that faith comes from hearing the Word of God (Rom. 10:17). Therefore, it follows that in order to be pleasing to God, whatever we do and practice must be grounded in faith, which is derived from the Word of God.

Since there is no command or example of Gentile Christians observing the Law of Moses in any way, to observe portions of the Law of Moses is to observe something that is not of faith. In fact, we see apostolic teaching that directly commands Gentiles NOT to observe the Law.

And if you observe a portion of the Law, you are a debtor to observe it all.

Do you observe all of the Law? Or just the portions that seem fun and interesting?

-

Ta-An
Jun 28th 2008, 02:47 PM
About : Covenant

The very first time we read about Covenant in the Bible.... is with Noah.... Not a blood covenant, but never the less a covenant....

Does G_d break any of His covenants?? :hmm: Not as far as I know :D

Matt14
Jun 28th 2008, 02:54 PM
I celebrate them in imitation of the fact that He celebrated them. I want to be like Him, even in the holy days He recognized. ;) BTW, I see nowhere in scripture where it says that God's Feasts have been nailed to the cross. :hmm: They are not the "ordinances that were AGAINST us". :confused How do you see a celebration of Him as some sort of burden that was against us?

Living under the Law, Jesus did a lot of things in accordance with that Law that you should not do today. In fact, Christ DIED to free you from the required observances of the Law.

The Law of Moses cannot be "pieced out." Paul says if you observe a part, you are a debtor to observe the whole law.

Tell me, is the observance of the Passover an ordinance, or not?

Matt14
Jun 28th 2008, 02:58 PM
Where in that verse does it say Law? :hmm:

Just read the context of the passage.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
Col 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Col 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

The sabbaths and festivals were mere shadows, but the substance is in Christ. Why not remain in the substance, instead of reverting to shadows?

-

Matt14
Jun 28th 2008, 03:05 PM
I see where Paul says that the shadows haven't passed yet, we're still waiting for them "to come"...

Col 2:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&verse=17&version=kjv#17)Which are(not was) a shadow of things to come(future tense); but the body [is] of Christ.

We are still waiting for the fulfillment of His second coming.

Yes, they ARE a shadow of things to come, because the Jews who denied the Christ still practice them. To this day, the Jews still practice them. But as Christians, we rest in the reality, the substance of Christ.

Looking at the Passover, for instance, we see that it was a memorial to how God had brought Israel out of Egypt. But since there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ, we are not bound by such an observance.

However, Christ said to remember His death by observing the Lord's supper. Paul said this:

1Co 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.

You see, the Lord's supper is the observance by which the Christian proclaims His death, until He comes, meaning His second coming.

The festivals were not for this purpose.

-

Matt14
Jun 28th 2008, 03:08 PM
About : Covenant

The very first time we read about Covenant in the Bible.... is with Noah.... Not a blood covenant, but never the less a covenant....

Does G_d break any of His covenants?? :hmm: Not as far as I know :D

Are you saying this to imply that the Law of Moses is still in effect, ACCM?

Now, you know that the covenant made through Moses with the people of Israel has been replaced.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

-

Studyin'2Show
Jun 28th 2008, 03:14 PM
Living under the Law, Jesus did a lot of things in accordance with that Law that you should not do today. In fact, Christ DIED to free you from the required observances of the Law.

The Law of Moses cannot be "pieced out." Paul says if you observe a part, you are a debtor to observe the whole law.

Tell me, is the observance of the Passover an ordinance, or not?No, I do not observe Passover by ordinance or requirement. :no: I think you're missing out on so much by your interpretation, but hey, you are free to do so. :dunno: Here's a question for you, am I free in Christ? If so, am I free to celebrate all the Feasts of the LORD? :hmm:

God Bless!

Matt14
Jun 28th 2008, 03:17 PM
Being Orthodox Jews permeates every thing that they do. An outsider cannot help but know upon first glance at them and upon observing all that they do and say that they are Orthodox Jews. Is my Christianity as obvious to others? I think that adding some of the observations you mention would do a great deal in focusing my attention on Christ and making Him more and more a part of the mundane of my life.

Please let me know if you have any websites or books you recommend. Then please pray for me to find the best way to proceed as my husband is not a Christian.

Christina

Christina, the statement of yours that I have put in bold is what seems to drive a lot of people to return to observing parts of the Law of Moses. You said:

...adding some observations

...mundane of my life.

Two points. First, we should not add anything to our worship of God under the New Testament that is not commanded by God. Observance of festivals and sabbaths is part of the old covenant, not the New in the blood of Christ.

Second, our lives can become mundane, indeed. But there are biblical ways to grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ and communion of the Holy Spirit without reverting to the Law of Moses.

Do not be swayed by the "novelty" of observing traditions and festivals of the Jewish culture. It is very interesting to study their beliefs and practices, but we are not to practice them religiously.

Instead, I suggest discovering more about the New Testament church which Christ purchased with His own blood (Acts 20:28). If you need help doing so, PM me or click the links in my signature.

God bless!

-

Studyin'2Show
Jun 28th 2008, 03:22 PM
Yes, they ARE a shadow of things to come, because the Jews who denied the Christ still practice them. To this day, the Jews still practice them. But as Christians, we rest in the reality, the substance of Christ.

Looking at the Passover, for instance, we see that it was a memorial to how God had brought Israel out of Egypt. But since there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ, we are not bound by such an observance.

However, Christ said to remember His death by observing the Lord's supper. Paul said this:

1Co 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.

You see, the Lord's supper is the observance by which the Christian proclaims His death, until He comes, meaning His second coming.

The festivals were not for this purpose.

-I believe you've missed her point. They still ARE a shadow of things TO COME. There is still prophecy to be fulfilled that the Feasts point toward.

Look at I Corinthians 11:26 again. Have you considered that it was the cup of the Passover and the bread of the Passover that Christ was holding? :hmm: Can you see how each year at the Passover we remember the great sacrifice of our Passover Lamb; the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world? This all fits together as an amazing tapestry! God is awesome and ALL that He has given us is awesome to behold. I chose to receive it ALL! :D
God Bless!

Matt14
Jun 28th 2008, 03:23 PM
No, I do not observe Passover by ordinance or requirement. :no:

That is good.


I think you're missing out on so much by your interpretation, but hey, you are free to do so. :dunno:

What am I missing? You see, this is the problem with Gentiles becoming Messianics. It is alledged that Christians who observe the New Testament commands for worship only are "missing out" because they do not observe these OT feasts.

What do you think Paul would say about that?


Here's a question for you, am I free in Christ? If so, am I free to celebrate all the Feasts of the LORD? :hmm:

You are also free to practice circumcision religiously. But does that mean you should?

Gal 5:3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

-

Matt14
Jun 28th 2008, 03:31 PM
I believe you've missed her point. They still ARE a shadow of things TO COME. There is still prophecy to be fulfilled that the Feasts point toward.

Tell me about one, briefly, please.


Look at I Corinthians 11:26 again. Have you considered that it was the cup of the Passover and the bread of the Passover that Christ was holding? :hmm: Can you see how each year at the Passover we remember the great sacrifice of our Passover Lamb; the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world? This all fits together as an amazing tapestry! God is awesome and ALL that He has given us is awesome to behold. I chose to receive it ALL! :D
God Bless!

The cup Christ held represented His blood of the New Covenant. The Lord's supper is a different observance from the Passover.

You are choosing to receive something that was not given to you, if you seek to observe the Law, the traditions and the festivals of the Jews.

It is one thing to learn about them, it is another to observe them religiously. By doing so you seek to make yourself Jewish, and to revert to a time and practice of people who were still waiting for Messiah.

-

Matt14
Jun 28th 2008, 03:33 PM
Lord willing, I wil return later to answer any posts to me. I must get about my sermons for tomorrow.

God bless!

Studyin'2Show
Jun 28th 2008, 03:42 PM
What am I missing? You see, this is the problem with Gentiles becoming Messianics. It is alledged that Christians who observe the New Testament commands for worship only are "missing out" because they do not observe these OT feasts.

What do you think Paul would say about that?

You are also free to practice circumcision religiously. But does that mean you should?

Gal 5:3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

-You didn't answer the question, Matt. Am I free in Christ? And if so, am I free to observe the same exact celebration He did?

What are you missing? Do you even recognize that Christ is our Passover Lamb? If so, WHY would it be in any way bad to observe Passover? Messiah IS our Passover. We have passed over from death into life. The connection to all the Feast of the LORD is similar. Just as they were and are a foreshadow of the things of Messiah, so are they a remembrance. Do this in remembrance? You're dog on straight, I do ALL this in remembrance of Him. It is ALL for His glory! :pp If you can not see His glory in ALL this then, yes, you are missing out.

And what would Paul say? What did Paul say? He said not to let ANYONE judge you based on the holy days you celebrate (Colossians 2:16). So, yes, I will listen to Paul and not let you judge me based on my observance of the LORD's Feasts. ;)

God Bless!

Matt14
Jun 28th 2008, 03:52 PM
You are both reading Colossians out of context, and stretching the metaphor of Christ as our Passover into something God did not intend.

You are free in Christ. But we do not use freedom to sin, do we? Nor do we use it to circumcize ourselves. That was the point of the Galatians passage I showed you earlier.

Notice in Colossians that Paul is actually speaking to Gentiles who are likely being judged by Jews who think they SHOULD observe days and festivals, etc. Paul is saying don't worry about what they say, they are observing shadows, you (Gentiles) are observing the reality in Christ.

I've really got to go. But I hope to answer your posts later when I get my work done.

Suffice it to say that I have strong feelings about what is being discussed in this thread, because I fear many are being swayed to return to the Law.

You all are saying it is optional to observe the feasts and festivals. But do any of you practice the whole Law? If not, why not?

If you are a Gentile, you cannot observe the Passover without making yourself a debtor to the whole Law.

-

Studyin'2Show
Jun 28th 2008, 04:08 PM
Tell me about one, briefly, please.

The cup Christ held represented His blood of the New Covenant. The Lord's supper is a different observance from the Passover.

You are choosing to receive something that was not given to you, if you seek to observe the Law, the traditions and the festivals of the Jews.

It is one thing to learn about them, it is another to observe them religiously. By doing so you seek to make yourself Jewish, and to revert to a time and practice of people who were still waiting for Messiah.

-You asked me to tell you about one feast and how it is still a foreshadowing. How about the one we just celebrated; Shavuot also known as the Feasts of Weeks and Pentecost. It is 50 days from the Feast of First Fruits of which Messiah fulfilled being the firstfruit from the grave at His resurrection which was on, you guessed it, the Feast of First Fruits. See that connection to Messiah and the feasts? Anyway, that one celebrates the beginning of the harvest of souls for the kingdom. Shavout is a celebration of the harvest. Spiritually, the harvest of souls whcih is still occurring. This harvest spans past, present, and into the future. Scripture tells us that that fields will not be picked clean.

Leviticus 23:22 - ‘When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field when you reap, nor shall you gather any gleaning from your harvest. You shall leave them for the poor and for the stranger: I am the LORD your God.’”

So, how ever you see the end times playing out, we seem to be near the end of the bulk of the harvest, but in the end there will be a time of gleaning of souls. Though at that time it might appear as if the harvest is done, there will still be those in the corners, so to speak, left to be gleaned. This is all a future fulfillment. Thus this feast is both a remembrance and a shadow of things to come. :)

As to your second point, first let me point out that these are NOT simply the festivals of the Jews. Read Leviticus 23. They are the Feast of the LORD. It mentions nothing of Jew or anyone else but rather, God claims them as His own. :yes: And, just so you know, I have no desire to be Jewish. My sole desire in this is to be like Messiah. Paul tells us to be imitators of Him. And so I imitate Him even in this.

God Bless!

Ta-An
Jun 28th 2008, 04:16 PM
Matt, just one global answer from me : The NT without the Old has no foundation.

I prefer the word Renew, ieo Replace :D

Studyin'2Show
Jun 28th 2008, 04:26 PM
You are both reading Colossians out of context, and stretching the metaphor of Christ as our Passover into something God did not intend.

You are free in Christ. But we do not use freedom to sin, do we? Nor do we use it to circumcize ourselves. That was the point of the Galatians passage I showed you earlier.

Notice in Colossians that Paul is actually speaking to Gentiles who are likely being judged by Jews who think they SHOULD observe days and festivals, etc. Paul is saying don't worry about what they say, they are observing shadows, you (Gentiles) are observing the reality in Christ.

I've really got to go. But I hope to answer your posts later when I get my work done.

Suffice it to say that I have strong feelings about what is being discussed in this thread, because I fear many are being swayed to return to the Law.

You all are saying it is optional to observe the feasts and festivals. But do any of you practice the whole Law? If not, why not?

If you are a Gentile, you cannot observe the Passover without making yourself a debtor to the whole Law.

-I actually had an encounter with a Jewish man at my job once that gave me what I feel is a much clearer perspective of what Colossians 2 really means, to Gentiles. It was during Passover and he knew that I celebrated it so we were talking about what we'd had for dinner. When I told him about a sweet potato pancake my mother had made that was really good with a bit of butter on it he just about popped a gasket. As many know Jews do not consume meat and dairy together. However, we, because we are NOT rabbinical, do not recognize this as it is nowhere in scripture. He berated me so much in front of everyone that I was stunned and at first felt badly about it. But when I went to the Father in prayer, such a peace came over me. When I got home and was able to go to His word regarding Passover, I found no such regulation. What I came to realize is that he was brought up observing tradition, whereas we had been led by the Spirit of God to celebrate but without the traditions of man tied to it.

The next time I read the passage in Colossians it was like a light went on. There were so many new believing Gentiles beginning to celebrate the feasts and Sabbaths, in Messiah and the Jews were berating them for 'doing it wrong', just as the man had berated me.

Colossians 2:16-17
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

That passage reads very differently when you consider my experience which must have been compounded for the believing Gentile of the first century. Paul was encouraging them not to let them judge them based on how they celebrated these things BECAUSE the substance of those things IS CHRIST! Don't worry about how a traditional seder is done or what foods are traditional served during these feasts. It is the fact that Christ is in them that is important.
You are free in Christ. But we do not use freedom to sin, do we? Sin is bondage, not freedom but celebrating the feast that God has blessed us with is not sin. That is the difference.

God Bless!

Ta-An
Jun 28th 2008, 04:35 PM
Studyin'2Show.... I feel lead to share these verses with you

Joel 2:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=29&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Acts 2:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

May you stay strong and encouraged because those who run the race with endurance shall receive the prize :hug:

diffangle
Jun 28th 2008, 06:06 PM
On another note on Colossians 2, we can see that Paul was dealing with a gnostic element(there are both Jew and gentile gnostics... all their practices are man-made tradition), look at these verses that shows the gnostic element he was dealing with...

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

I would hope we could agree that YHWH's Word is not a vain deceit after the tradition of men.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Is voluntary humlity and worshipping of angels in His Word? No, these are gnostic practices.

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Again we see he's addressing commandments/doctrines of men.

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

None of that is in YHWHs Word.

ShirleyFord
Jun 28th 2008, 07:28 PM
I celebrate them in imitation of the fact that He celebrated them. I want to be like Him, even in the holy days He recognized. ;) BTW, I see nowhere in scripture where it says that God's Feasts have been nailed to the cross. :hmm: They are not the "ordinances that were AGAINST us". :confused How do you see a celebration of Him as some sort of burden that was against us?

Ex 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

The feast of weeks included all of the 6 yearly feasts:

The 3 Feasts Held in the Beginning of the Jewish Year which began in our modern-day Spring of the Year

1 - Feast of Passover
2 - Feast of Firstfruit
3 - Feast of Penticost

The 3 Feasts Held at the End of the Jewish Year which began in our modern-day Fall of the Year


First God tells Moses to count the weeks by the weekly 7th day sabbath - 1 sabbath day x 7 days of the week which would have equaled 50 days between The Feast of Firstfruit to The Feast of Penticost each year.



Deu 16

1 Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto the LORD thy God: for in the month of Abib the LORD thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.

2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the LORD thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the LORD shall choose to place his name there.

3 Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.

4 And there shall be no leavened bread seen with thee in all thy coast seven days; neither shall there any thing of the flesh, which thou sacrificedst the first day at even, remain all night until the morning.

5 Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee:

6 But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.

7 And thou shalt roast and eat it in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: and thou shalt turn in the morning, and go unto thy tents.

8 Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no work therein.

9 Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn.


Leviticus 23

15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals; they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baked with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.

18 And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savor unto the LORD.

19 Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings.

20 And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.

21 And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.


Then God told Moses how to count the 7th yr. land sabbaths every seventh year - 7 weekly sabbaths x 7 years which began each 7th year at the yearly Feast of Tabernacles and continuing for 1 year ending the next year at The Feast of Tabernacles.

Lev 25

And the LORD spake unto Moses in mount Sinai, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD.

3 Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof;

4 But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard.

5 That which groweth of its own accord of thy harvest thou shalt not reap, neither gather the grapes of thy vine undressed: for it is a year of rest unto the land.

6 And the sabbath of the land shall be meat for you; for thee, and for thy servant, and for thy maid, and for thy hired servant, and for thy stranger that sojourneth with thee.

7 And for thy cattle, and for the beast that are in thy land, shall all the increase thereof be meat.



In Leviticus 23 God gives Moses the laws for two different sabbaths to be held during the The Feast of Tabernacles each year - a law for the yearly sabbath and a law for the 7th yr. sabbath which began every 7 years and beginning each year at year's end on The Feast of Tabernacles, lasting 1 year, ending the following year on The Feast of Tabernacles.

Lev 23

34 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD.

35 On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

36 Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein.

37 These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:

38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.

40 And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.

41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.

42 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:

43 That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

44 And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the LORD.



God then tells Moses to count the last of His sabbath feasts, The Feast of Jubilee, every 50th year during the 7th yr. Sabbath Feast of the Land by multipling 7 years by 50 (7 yrs. x 50). The The Feast of Jubilee would begin on the day of atonement at The Feast of Atonement on the 10 day of the 7th month - on the 49th sabbatical year when the trumpet of jubilee sounded.


Lev 25

8 And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years.

9 Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.

10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubilee unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.

11 A jubilee shall that fiftieth year be unto you: ye shall not sow, neither reap that which groweth of itself in it, nor gather the grapes in it of thy vine undressed.

12 For it is the jubilee; it shall be holy unto you: ye shall eat the increase thereof out of the field.

13 In the year of this jubilee ye shall return every man unto his possession.

The Feast of Jubilee, every 50th year during the 7th yr. Sabbath Feast of the Land by multipling 7 years by 50 (7 yrs. x 50). The The Feast of Jubilee would begin on the day of atonement at The Feast of Atonement on the 10 day of the 7th month - on the 49th sabbatical year when the trumpet of jubilee sounded.




I believe that since Jesus taught in the temple at Jerusalem for the entire seven days on the Feast of Tabernacles, a sabbatical year, the sabbath of the land of Israel which began every 6th year at the end of the year on the Feast of Tabernacles (the last sabbath feast of the year) and continued until the next Feast of Tabernacles the following year. And also that particular year was The Feast of Jubilee.

By what is written in Nehemiah 8, it appears that the law of Moses was read and taught to Israel only during the those 7 days of the Feast of Tabernacles

Neh 8

14 And they found written in the law which the LORD had commanded by Moses, that the children of Israel should dwell in booths in the feast of the seventh month: 15 And that they should publish and proclaim in all their cities, and in Jerusalem, saying, Go forth unto the mount, and fetch olive branches, and pine branches, and myrtle branches, and palm branches, and branches of thick trees, to make booths, as it is written. 16 So the people went forth, and brought them, and made themselves booths, every one upon the roof of his house, and in their courts, and in the courts of the house of God, and in the street of the water gate, and in the street of the gate of Ephraim.

Now this was after the second temple and Jerusalem was rebuilt. Israel had also kept the feast of tabernacles after the foundation of the temple was laid:

Ezra 3:4 They kept also the feast of tabernacles, as it is written, and offered the daily burnt offerings by number, according to the custom, as the duty of every day required;

Yet Nehemiah writes in Neh 8:17 And all the congregation of them that were come again out of the captivity made booths, and sat under the booths: for since the days of Jeshua the son of Nun unto that day had not the children of Israel done so. And there was very great gladness.

Nehemiah says that was the first time the captivity made booths and sat under them since the days of Joshua.

And we see in the first part of Nehemiah 8 that Ezra read the law of Moses from all 7 days of the feast. But we don't find the priests reading the law of Moses. We find them teaching the people and giving them the understanding of the law of Moses Ezra read to them.

Gabriel gave Daniel that same numbering system to give to the children of Israel, Daniel's people, to know in what year their Messiah the Prince would come to them in Jerusalem and redeem them and release them from their captivity:

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The first period of the countdown will be 49 weeks. Throughout the OT we find everything He does is counted by each of the 7 days of the 1 creation week with His sabbath at the end of day 6 on the 7th day.

First he says that Jerusalem must be built, fully buiilt fully restored, right down to its streets and the wall around it And he let's them know that the time of building Jerusalem would be in troublous times.

By what God told King David and Solomon and throughout the OT to His prophets and priests, He wouldn't consider Jerusalem fully built before the temple and the sanctuary inside of it and the Levitical priesthood were fully restored. The high priests and his priests were the only ones He allowed in His sanctuary of His temple. They were the only ones He had chosen to offer up gifts to Him by sacrificing 2 lambs each day for 6 days as the daily sacrifice: 1 lamb in the morning was the morning sacrifice and the other lamb in the evening at the evening sacrice, every day, all 6 days.

And then on the 7th day, the weekly sabbath feast, their work was doubled:

Instead of 2 lambs for the daily sacrifice - 1 offered to God in the morning and one offered to Him in the evening - they must on the 7th day offer up 2 lanbs for the morning sacrifice and two other lambs for the evening sacrifice.

And Gabriel prophecied that from the time the command was given to restore and build Jerusalem until Jerusalem was built and fully restored would be 49 weeks.

Interestingly the Feast of Jubilee, came every 50th year during the 7th yr. Sabbath Feast of the Land by multipling 7 years by 50 (7 yrs. x 50). The The Feast of Jubilee would begin on the day of atonement at The Feast of Atonement on the 10 day of the 7th month - on the 49th sabbatical year when the trumpet of jubilee sounded.

In Ezra we read where God sends His prophets Haggai and Zechariah to prophecy toZerubbabel so the building of the second temple could be finished and Jerusalem would them be fully restored.

This is what God told Haggai to prophecy to them that would cause the priests to get up on their feet and finish the work that that had started many years ago but were hindered and then finally stopped by their enemies:

Haggai 2:1-23

1 In the seventh month, in the one and twentieth day of the month, came the word of the LORD by the prophet Haggai, saying, 2 Speak now to Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, and to the residue of the people, saying, 3 Who is left among you that saw this house in her first glory? and how do ye see it now? is it not in your eyes in comparison of it as nothing? 4 Yet now be strong, O Zerubbabel, saith the LORD; and be strong, O Joshua, son of Josedech, the high priest; and be strong, all ye people of the land, saith the LORD, and work: for I am with you, saith the LORD of hosts:

5 According to the word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, so my spirit remaineth among you: fear ye not. 6 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land; 7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts. 8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts. 9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts. 10 In the four and twentieth day of the ninth month, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the LORD by Haggai the prophet, saying, 11 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ask now the priests concerning the law, saying, 12 If one bear holy flesh in the skirt of his garment, and with his skirt do touch bread, or pottage, or wine, or oil, or any meat, shall it be holy? And the priests answered and said, No.

13 Then said Haggai, If one that is unclean by a dead body touch any of these, shall it be unclean? And the priests answered and said, It shall be unclean. 14 Then answered Haggai, and said, So is this people, and so is this nation before me, saith the LORD; and so is every work of their hands; and that which they offer there is unclean. 15 And now, I pray you, consider from this day and upward, from before a stone was laid upon a stone in the temple of the LORD: 16 Since those days were, when one came to an heap of twenty measures, there were but ten: when one came to the pressfat for to draw out fifty vessels out of the press, there were but twenty. 17 I smote you with blasting and with mildew and with hail in all the labours of your hands; yet ye turned not to me, saith the LORD.

18 Consider now from this day and upward, from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month, even from the day that the foundation of the LORD's temple was laid, consider it. 19 Is the seed yet in the barn? yea, as yet the vine, and the fig tree, and the pomegranate, and the olive tree, hath not brought forth: from this day will I bless you.

20 And again the word of the LORD came unto Haggai in the four and twentieth day of the month, saying, 21 Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; 22 And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother.

23 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts.

Naphal
Jun 28th 2008, 08:01 PM
They are not the "ordinances that were AGAINST us". :confused How do you see a celebration of Him as some sort of burden that was against us?

So what was against us and what was not? Are you sure commanding certain mandatory feasts and rules regarding it and everything about it isn't against anyone?

Naphal
Jun 28th 2008, 08:04 PM
Where in that verse does it say Law? :hmm:

Do you have access to a concordance? It is a tool that gives the original words in this case the Greek:


Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

1378
1378 dogma {dog'-mah}

from the base of 1380; TDNT - 2:230,178; n n

AV - decree 3, ordinance 2; 5

1) doctrine, decree, ordinance
1a) of public decrees
1b) of the Roman Senate
1c) of rulers
2) the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a
suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment
3) of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living

Naphal
Jun 28th 2008, 08:11 PM
I see where Paul says that the shadows haven't passed yet, we're still waiting for them "to come"...

Col 2:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&verse=17&version=kjv#17)Which are(not was) a shadow of things to come(future tense); but the body [is] of Christ.

We are still waiting for the fulfillment of His second coming.

Yes we are but that's not what the verse is talking about plus you are wrong about the verb tense. It's written in the Greek present tense signifying that it was fulfilled even at the writing of that verse. The verb tense is present, the voice is active and the mood is participle however only the tense matters in this case concerning whether or not Paul was saying it was a future fulfillment or not. This knowledge is gained through use of a Lexicon. So the correction is:

Col 2:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&verse=17&version=kjv#17)Which are a shadow of things to come (present tense); but the body [is] of Christ.

Naphal
Jun 28th 2008, 08:23 PM
Does G_d break any of His covenants?? :hmm: Not as far as I know :D

Yes but only for a valid and righteous reason:



Zechariah 11:4 Thus saith the LORD my God; Feed the flock of the slaughter;
Zechariah 11:5 Whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty: and they that sell them say, Blessed be the LORD; for I am rich: and their own shepherds pity them not.
Zechariah 11:6 For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD: but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour's hand, and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them.
Zechariah 11:7 And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.
Zechariah 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
Zechariah 11:9 Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.
Zechariah 11:10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
Zechariah 11:11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.

Israel and Judah committed Adultery and God divorced them ending the covenant he had with them.

Zechariah 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
Zechariah 11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
Zechariah 11:14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.


Furthermore he broke the bond between them as well!


Clarke
Zec 11:10 -
I took my staff - Beauty, and cut it asunder - And thus I showed that I determined no longer to preserve them in their free and glorious state. And thus I brake my covenant with them, which they had broken on their part already.

Gill

that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people; not the covenant of works, that was made with all mankind in Adam; that was broke, not by the Lord, but by man; and was broke before the Gospel was published; nor the covenant of grace, for this was not made with all the people, nor can it be broken; but the Mosaic economy, the Sinai covenant, called the old covenant, which gradually vanished away: it was of right abolished at the death of Christ

Naphal
Jun 28th 2008, 08:28 PM
I believe you've missed her point. They still ARE a shadow of things TO COME.

See my other post on the verse tense. What Paul wrote is actually "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath : Which are a shadow of things that have come; but the body of Christ."

Naphal
Jun 28th 2008, 08:34 PM
Matt, just one global answer from me : The NT without the Old has no foundation.



And the Old without the new has no roof.


I prefer the word Renew, ieo Replace :D

Yes but the old covenant was not renewed but was replaced.


Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.



Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

"not according to the covenant" proves it is not a renewed covenant!

ShirleyFord
Jun 28th 2008, 11:30 PM
Jesus was and is the the Holy One of Israel, the Lamb of God, the Messiah the Prince, King and Priest sitting at the right hand of God, the Father's own Son that Moses and the Children of Isrel sang to the song of Moses in Exodus 15. And they called Him "Lord, my father's God"!


SONG OF MOSES


1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. 4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea. 5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone. 6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy. 7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble. 8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea. 9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them. 10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters. 11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders? 12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them. 13 Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation. 14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina. 15 Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away. 16 Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased. 17 Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O LORD, which thy hands have established. 18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.


The last feast of the year before, the feast of tabernacles, has ended. A new calender year has begun with the first sabbatical feast of the new year, the feast of passover will begin in 6 days in the midst of the 1 year of the 7th yr. sabbath of the land, the "one week" in the sabbatical year that is after that begins in the 6th year from the previous 7 year land sabbath. during the 7 days of the 7th yearly sabbath feast, Feast of Tabernacles, the last of the yearly sabbath feasts of the year. And the feast of the sabbath year would continue for 1 regular year through the next year and end at year's end at the end of the 7th day of the 7th year, The Feast of Tabernacles Sabbath.

And the angel Gabriel tells Daniel that Israel's Messiah would come in the 69th year of the 6th year from last land sabbath, 6 years before. And that He would be cut off after the 69th week, during the during the one week left of the 1 yr. sabbatical year that wound end on the last day of the one week left in it, the last day of the seven days of the 7th yearly sabbath feast days, The Feast of Tabernacles, when all of Israel feasted when it was also the Year of Jubilee, the 50th yr Feast of Jubilee Sabbath, which began on the 10th day of the 7th month when the trumpet of jubilee sounded, The Feast of the Atonement Sabbath, the 6th yearly feast, and would contine for 4 days ending on the 4th day of the 7th month.


25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

"one week", is what Gabriel prophecied to Daniel about the coming of Messiah to Daniel's people. God cut off that "one week" of a 7 day week the 1 yr of the land feast, in the 1 yr of the year of Jubilee (the 50th beginning on the 7th yr of the 1 yr. of the land sabbath feast, during the 4 days of the 6th feast of the year and would continue that jubilee of redemption, freedom and release from captivity that the Children of Israel knew as they sang the Song of Moses with jubilation to their Lord, redeemer and King with timbrels and dances.

What excitement! What Joy! What a Day! Glory! When our Lord came and purchased us from God's enemy, redeeming us and releasing us captivity! And He is Coming again. We can be sure of that. We have a witness, God Himself, God the Holy Ghost, within every purchased, redeemed child of God who has been washed in the blood of the Lamb and God raised us up from spiritual death of trespasses and sin and released us from our our old sinful, ungodly sin nature that had us bound in the devil's grips, and set us free, raising us up from the pits of spiritual death to new life of spiritual life.

And we have a many witnesses who saw our Lord ascend. And the angels said, "He is Coming back as you seew Him go!" And nothing could stop those witnesses who saw Him go. Not even the threat of death and death itself could not stop their witness of ther Lord, Deliverer, Master, Govenor and King. We can be those same kinds of sold-out witnesses for Christ and use their footsteps on the pages of God's word as our pattern, as the same Spirit of God that was in them to lead them on their journey in this world, to lead us on that same journey as we walk the witnesses of Christ.


Jesus had raised Lazarus from the dead in John 11. And beginning in Chapter 12, we find Jesus again at the home of Lazarus, Mary and Martha on the 6th day of the 7 day week - that 7th day of the last week, the weekly sabbath feast, was cut off (determined by God 490 years before for Daniel's people) from those last 6 days of the week for the Holiest Sabbath of all. And the countdown begins:

John 12

9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead. 10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; 11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.
14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, 15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

Zech 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 29th 2008, 01:21 AM
So what was against us and what was not? Are you sure commanding certain mandatory feasts and rules regarding it and everything about it isn't against anyone?Have you ever had a feast? :hmm: It is a very enjoyable thing. And BTW, when I once said that I celebrate the Feasts of the LORD because I was commanded to do so? :confused NEVER. I am blessed to be able celebrate the LORD's Feast! :)

Studyin'2Show
Jun 29th 2008, 01:54 AM
See my other post on the verse tense. What Paul wrote is actually "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath : Which are a shadow of things that have come; but the body of Christ."I wouldn't bank on the NIV especially when it comes to verb tense. Whenever I have an issue like this I tend to look to the NASB/ASV or the NKJV/KJV all of which have it in the future tense. The only ones I saw with the present tense (of the dozen or so I looked at) were the NIV and NCV. When you look at the Greek word in the original text, it is in the future tense, so I'll stick with the future tense. ;)

God Bless!

Naphal
Jun 29th 2008, 06:31 AM
I wouldn't bank on the NIV especially when it comes to verb tense.

I wasnt referring to that translation or any translation. I used a lexicon which gives you verb tenses among other things.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&verse=17&version=KJV#17

Click on the tense button for the word "come" and it will show you the tense and that it is the present tense.




When you look at the Greek word in the original text, it is in the future tense, so I'll stick with the future tense. ;)

No, the original greek text has the verb in the present tense.

Naphal
Jun 29th 2008, 06:35 AM
Have you ever had a feast? :hmm: It is a very enjoyable thing.

Its less enjoyable when you are commanded to have it, and when and what to have and so forth.


Exodus 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
Exodus 12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.

You dont think that being cut off from Israel for not eating the right type of bread is against anyone? I do. Praise Jesus that this was nailed to the cross.



Exodus 12:19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.

ShirleyFord
Jun 29th 2008, 06:59 AM
I wouldn't bank on the NIV especially when it comes to verb tense. Whenever I have an issue like this I tend to look to the NASB/ASV or the NKJV/KJV all of which have it in the future tense. The only ones I saw with the present tense (of the dozen or so I looked at) were the NIV and NCV. When you look at the Greek word in the original text, it is in the future tense, so I'll stick with the future tense. ;)

God Bless!

Yes, you are correct, if you're looking only at that one verse for the truth of what Paul says and means.

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

But when we read the other 16 verses before verse 17 and the 6 verses other verses after it, we find that the things which are a shadow are those things in v. 16 he warns the Church about:

"in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days"

Every one of the things were of the OT law, the ordinances of God, for the children of Israel, God's rules written down and taught them so they wouldn't have any question as what God would have them to do. They were shadows pointing to Christ and were fulfilled in Him during His earthly ministry before Cavary and at Calvary and after Calvary.

Paul calls everyone of these things he list in v. 16 "ordinances' in v. 20:

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Those ordinances are present tense. But they are not future tense to be fulfilled in our future.

This epistle of Paul that he writes to the to the Church are God ordinances now.

Written down laws of God are called ordinances, instructtions, on how God says that we are to obey His law.

1 Cor 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

We find in all of his epistles, Paul shows two kinds of ordinances:

1. Those ordinances that that God has given him to give to the Church

2. carnal ordinances that is of the flesh and against God.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.


4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 29th 2008, 11:37 AM
Yes, you are correct, if you're looking only at that one verse for the truth of what Paul says and means.

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

But when we read the other 16 verses before verse 17 and the 6 verses other verses after it, we find that the things which are a shadow are those things in v. 16 he warns the Church about:

"in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days"

Every one of the things were of the OT law, the ordinances of God, for the children of Israel, God's rules written down and taught them so they wouldn't have any question as what God would have them to do. They were shadows pointing to Christ and were fulfilled in Him during His earthly ministry before Cavary and at Calvary and after Calvary.Every time the word 'spirit' is used within the text of the Bible, is it ALWAYS refering to God's Holy Spirit? My answer is no to that and also to the question of whether every time the word 'ordinance' is used does it ALWAYS refer to God's holy ordinances. It is very easy to, IMO, misread this entire passage. I explained earlier in this thread how I interpret Paul's words to the church here and it was NOT that they needed to afraid to obey God. All you need to do is go to any Orthodox Jew and see ALL the ORDINANCES they are UNDER and then try to find them in God's holy ordinances. But hey, 95% of them aren't there. Which is why Paul tells the people not to be led by the doctrines of MEN later in this same passage.

Colossians 2:20-23
20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Why would Paul call the word of God 'commandments and doctrines of men'? Why would he call it 'self-imposed' religion? Why? Because he was talking about all the things which had been and still are for the Orthodox Jew, ADDED not from God but from man! Read it all in context. I could go through each of your references and show how they ALL are referring to the additions of man when it speaks of things which are against us but I don't have time, as I must get read for our LORD's day service. ;)

God Bless!

Mograce2U
Jun 29th 2008, 04:58 PM
The ordinances which were given to Moses were to keep the people together as a nation until the Seed of the promise arrived. This is the Seed first promised to Abraham to come from him thru Isaac and later Jacob - the nation of Israel. Ordinances which none of the fathers were under. They were however for their children when they entered into the land. Prior to then God Himself had guided them - which we see was not enough for them to keep them in the faith and believing. Moses' law was regarding carnal ordinances given by God to them which were to deal with their sins until the time Messiah arrived - when HE would take away their sins and deliver the promise. The shadows were not the substance of their hope - the body of Christ is. In the body of Christ, the people would be made one and reconciled to God. It was at that time that their sins would be remembered no more - which the law kept always before them.

Paul is not just talking about carnal traditions which men added to the law. Because this is what men will always do with law as they seek to find their own way around what the law requires, and put their own works forward instead. This is what needed to end. God's law put into the hearts of the people is in the place where no works can be added to it. The law of love, faith and hope working within the heart of man is what works his sanctification. Before this sanctification was an external rule which could not perfect the conscience.

The law contained blessings and curses to effect this rule of God over the nation. Such law is not needed anymore to make the people holy in the sight of God. Paul addresses the carnal law of circumcision for his example. The one given to Abraham as a seal of the faith that he had in the promise of Christ - the Seed to come. A sign given in his flesh which showed that his heart was circumcised by faith. So why are we not still having our sons undergo circumcision now that the Spirit has come to perform this work in our heart? I think one reason is because this is not how we are to know that the Spirit is in us. We needn't look to our flesh at all to see God at work in our lives.

The works of the flesh give us a religious feeling and by them we measure ourselves with ourselves. But this is what needs to stop for that is not the measure we are to use. Going back to these shadows is however what they produce as men try to substitute the carnal & subjective for the spiritual. That is why these things have no effect to the purifying of the flesh and instead work just like the law did - to make sin even more sinful to us. Which is a vicious circle that knows no bounds as it puts men's focus back upon what they do and off of the work of Christ which brought an end to these things.

And it is the ones who promote these things that see another temple and an earthly kingdom to come with blood sacrifices instituted again as part of OUR future. These are the ones who cannot see that we have the atonement already. This is having the effect that causes some to deny the work of Christ which fulfills the promise given to Abraham 490 years before the law was given to Moses. The promise which supercedes the temporary law of Moses. Which promise we now enjoy by the Spirit who is in us and celebrate at the Lord's table - not Moses' table - the gift of eternal life.

Christ in us is our hope of glory, which things the fathers still looked forward to in the feasts when they were not yet perfected because they were waiting for Him. He is risen! is our banner.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 29th 2008, 05:20 PM
Thanks for the input, Robin but you didn't address the main point of my post. Why did Paul not call it the commandment and doctrines of God if he was referring to those things received from God through Moses? Paul very specifically tells us whose commands and doctrine he is referring to....MEN.

God Bless!

Mograce2U
Jun 29th 2008, 06:13 PM
Thanks for the input, Robin but you didn't address the main point of my post. Why did Paul not call it the commandment and doctrines of God if he was referring to those things received from God through Moses? Paul very specifically tells us whose commands and doctrine he is referring to....MEN.

God Bless!The ordinances Paul is speaking about are those that pertain to the flesh and the things which are perishing in the using of them - things to be touched, handled and eaten. Those who are dead in Christ and risen with Him have no need to be under these laws which pertained to the things of this world that defile a man. The woman whose husband dies is not under the law that pertains to adultery and remarriage - she is set free from that law by his death. The ordinances and doctrines of men would be those things written in the Talmud concerning the oral law of how the law of Moses was to be kept. It is not just "traditions" which were added, it was that these things are not needed by those who been buried with Christ and risen from the dead - at all. The spiritual life we have in Christ is not about these carnal ordinances which dealt with sin and its defilement, because such things cannot make us holy in a permanent manner at all. Holiness or sanctification is thus not about one's flesh, but one's heart. Christ has made us holy, therefore we have no need to worry about doing those things which have to do with our flesh because our flesh is defiled. Things which could not deal with the conscience nor our guilt due to sin anyway. Moses' law concerned holiness for a people who were still defiled by the things of the world. Our position in Christ is that we remain cleansed and covered in His blood - which animals sacrifices could not accomplish. That is what Moses' law was all about, lest the people not be able to stand in the presence of God because of their defilement from the world and sin.

(Eph 2:14-16 KJV) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; {15} Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; {16} And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

The law kept the enmity between God and man in place.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 29th 2008, 06:59 PM
Yes, it's that which has been added to Torah. BTW, the passage in Ephesians is referring to the wall that separated Jew from Gentile. This is a wall not found in scripture but that was built by the commandment of man, not the will of God. The separation spoken of was not the separation between God and man but rather the separation between Jew and Gentile then it says that once that wall of separation was removed between the two, He reconciled them both to God. Once again Paul was writing of those things in the oral law not the things in the Law of God. How do I know this? Because there was nothing in the Torah that said the Gentiles were not allowed to worship God....that came from man. Messiah destroyed that wall separating the two men and reconciled them both to God. ;)

God Bless!

Mograce2U
Jun 29th 2008, 08:16 PM
Yes, it's that which has been added to Torah. BTW, the passage in Ephesians is referring to the wall that separated Jew from Gentile. This is a wall not found in scripture but that was built by the commandment of man, not the will of God. The separation spoken of was not the separation between God and man but rather the separation between Jew and Gentile then it says that once that wall of separation was removed between the two, He reconciled them both to God. Once again Paul was writing of those things in the oral law not the things in the Law of God. How do I know this? Because there was nothing in the Torah that said the Gentiles were not allowed to worship God....that came from man. Messiah destroyed that wall separating the two men and reconciled them both to God. ;)

God Bless!The wall of partition is not that which is between Jew and Gentile, it is that which stood between even the Jew and his God. Though they drew close to God thru the ordinances, while the Gentiles had no such access; now in Christ, both have access to God. The veil is the wall which Jesus tore open to grant us this access to the holiest of holies. A veil which existed because of man's enmity towards his God, and God's enmity towards mankind's sin. This is now gone and no ordinance regulates our coming before the Lord other than to do so with thanksgiving and praise.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 29th 2008, 09:08 PM
The wall of partition is not that which is between Jew and Gentile, it is that which stood between even the Jew and his God. Though they drew close to God thru the ordinances, while the Gentiles had no such access; now in Christ, both have access to God. The veil is the wall which Jesus tore open to grant us this access to the holiest of holies. A veil which existed because of man's enmity towards his God, and God's enmity towards mankind's sin. This is now gone and no ordinance regulates our coming before the Lord other than to do so with thanksgiving and praise.You seem to be mixing scriptures together but out of context.

Ephesians 2:12-17
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

He has made both one and broken the middle wall (this is not the veil that was torn) of separation. What 'one new man' is he referring to? God and man? No. Jew and Gentile? Yes. How can we know? Because the next verse says "so He might reconcile THEM BOTH to God". He is not reconciling God to Himself, but both Jew and Gentile in one new man, to God. Read in context it can only mean the separating wall between Jew and Gentile. :)

God Bless!

Naphal
Jun 29th 2008, 10:49 PM
He has made both one and broken the middle wall (this is not the veil that was torn) of separation. What 'one new man' is he referring to? God and man? No. Jew and Gentile? Yes. How can we know? Because the next verse says "so He might reconcile THEM BOTH to God". He is not reconciling God to Himself, but both Jew and Gentile in one new man, to God. Read in context it can only mean the separating wall between Jew and Gentile. :)

God Bless!

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

The wall Paul uses as the illustration isn't the actual wall that separated gentile and Jew. That was a spiritual wall set up by God in the very separating Jew as a child of Israel and all others gentiles. Man didn't do that, God did. Sure, man made a literal wall that demonstrated this but the wall that God removed was the one he had set in place to separate Jew from gentile.


Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

In Christ, there was now no longer a difference between the two. It remains that way today. There is no special treatment or blessings by God towards Jews that doesn't exist for gentiles.

Mograce2U
Jun 30th 2008, 02:08 AM
StudyingToShow,
(Eph 2:15-16 KJV) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; {16} And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Where is the enmity here, is it between Jew and Gentile only? Or is it not that enmity which was contained in the law and ordinances? BOTH Jew and Gentile are reconciled TO GOD - not to each other, by the removal of this enmity. The enmity that was slain was the curse which the law contained. Both Jews who were under the law and Gentiles who were estranged because they were outside of the law, is who must be reconciled to God. As you said earlier, the law did contain a provision for strangers who dwelt amongst the people. So the law did not separate Jew and Gentile; but it did keep both from coming into the Lord's presence - lest they be struck dead for doing so.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 30th 2008, 02:53 AM
Okay, so I have two of you saying two completely different things. :) Naphal, it seems you agree with me that the wall of separation Paul is referring to is a wall dividing Jew from Gentile, but are saying that it is God that setup this separation. And Robin, you seem to still be focused on making the wall of separation one between God and man though the text seems to clearly be speaking of 'two men'.

Naphal, please post scripture supporting your position that God created a wall. The scriptures I see show God speaking of how the stranger among them who chooses to serve Him should be accepted.

Leviticus 19:34 - The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Numbers 9:14 - And if a stranger dwells among you, and would keep the LORD’s Passover, he must do so according to the rite of the Passover and according to its ceremony; you shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger and the native of the land.’

That does not seem like a wall to me. :hmm: God said the the Gentile CAN keep the Passover, yet even to this very day, the Jew would say different. That's the wall. And that didn't come from God's word. It came just as Paul said, from the doctrines and commandments of MEN. ;)

Robin, I don't know what else to say other than just read it in context. All the way through it is referencing the two men. :dunno: I'm not sure why you don't see it.

God Bless!

Naphal
Jun 30th 2008, 03:06 AM
Okay, so I have two of you saying two completely different things. :) Naphal, it seems you agree with me that the wall of separation Paul is referring to is a wall dividing Jew from Gentile, but are saying that it is God that setup this separation.


Yes, Paul alludes to that wall and that Jew and Gentile would no longer be two different persons in Christ. However, Paul also speaks of the law and the enmity which was abolished in the flesh of Jesus! There are two things being addressed there. No separation between Jew and Gentile and no enmity separation between God and his people, which had been the law. Jesus did not become gentile as well as Jew in his own flesh so we know Paul shifts gears in the latter part.


Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;


This is clearly about Jews and Gentiles.

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

This is clearly about the law.





Naphal, please post scripture supporting your position that God created a wall. The scriptures I see show God speaking of how the stranger among them who chooses to serve Him should be accepted.

Just the fact of God choosing Israel as the chosen was the wall between those people and all others. I agree even in the OT that wall could be breached but never was a gentile in complete equal status with a Jew until Christ, and in reverse Jews could obtain equal status with gentiles :)

Mograce2U
Jun 30th 2008, 03:21 AM
Robin, I don't know what else to say other than just read it in context. All the way through it is referencing the two men. I'm not sure why you don't see it.Actually Denise I do see what you are saying, but you seem not to be able to see what I am saying! It is not just about reconciling the Jew with the Gentile, it is about reconciling both to God despite the avenue thru which each must come. The whole purpose of the law was to allow the people access to God, with some very strict requirements. These are not the requirements anymore for those in Christ.

ShirleyFord
Jun 30th 2008, 03:43 AM
A Gentile had to become a Jew before he could enter covenant with God and become His child. God gave specif rules concerning the Gentiles, beginning with Abraham:

Genesis 17
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

And the Lord gives Moses specific intructions of those Gentile He will allow to eat the passove

Ex 12:43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:

Ex 12:45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.


Ex 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Ex 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.


Ex 12:45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.

In Paul's day, there were Jews who believed that they were still under that Old Covenant law concerning Gentiles:

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 30th 2008, 11:37 AM
Actually Denise I do see what you are saying, but you seem not to be able to see what I am saying! It is not just about reconciling the Jew with the Gentile, it is about reconciling both to God despite the avenue thru which each must come. The whole purpose of the law was to allow the people access to God, with some very strict requirements. These are not the requirements anymore for those in Christ.Robin, I do see what you are saying regarding them both being reconciled through the blood of Messiah. That has been what I have been saying. I have not once said that you or I must keep any 'requirements' to have access to God. Somehow that is what you and some other assume. Yet I have never once spoken of any requirements. I do not keep the Passover because I fear being 'cut off' as those UNDER the Law kept it and still keep it. I keep the Passover because God has written His Law in my heart. I DESIRE to keep the Passover. This is the difference between the Law written on cold hard stone and His Law written on our soft willing hearts as prophesied by Jeremiah. We should now DESIRE to be in His presence and be in His will.

I've likely asked you this before but, do you love the LORD with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength and have no other gods before Him BECAUSE is was a commandment on stone, or because you DESIRE to love Him with all you have? Do you choose not to commit adultery because of the commandment or because of the heart? That is what the sermon on the mount was all about....the HEART! The title of this Christians living Torah. Jeremiah said that He would write His Law (Torah) on our hearts. So every Christian should be living with His Law written on our hearts, meaning that it is our desire to do as He wills for us. :)

Shirley, my reply to you is similar to the one above. God did not erect the physical wall between Jew and Gentile but nor did He put up a spiritual one between the two. The fact is that circumcision is still something those who serve God must do but as Yeshua clarified for us in His sermon on he mount, it is not merely about the physical but is completely about the HEART. Are you not a spiritual descendant of Abraham by faith? Thus have you not been circumcised? The physical was always an arrow pointing forward toward the circumcision that God desired. He told them while they were still in the desert how He wanted them to be circumcised.

Deuteronomy 10:16 - Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer.

And reiterated it through Jeremiah. Jeremiah 4:4 - Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, And take away the foreskins of your hearts, You men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Lest My fury come forth like fire, And burn so that no one can quench it, Because of the evil of your doings.

The wall that said the Gentile could not worship God WAS NOT put up by God, but by man.

God Bless!

ShirleyFord
Jun 30th 2008, 04:11 PM
Shirley, my reply to you is similar to the one above. God did not erect the physical wall between Jew and Gentile but nor did He put up a spiritual one between the two. The fact is that circumcision is still something those who serve God must do but as Yeshua clarified for us in His sermon on he mount, it is not merely about the physical but is completely about the HEART. Are you not a spiritual descendant of Abraham by faith? Thus have you not been circumcised? The physical was always an arrow pointing forward toward the circumcision that God desired. He told them while they were still in the desert how He wanted them to be circumcised.

Deuteronomy 10:16 - Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer.

And reiterated it through Jeremiah. Jeremiah 4:4 - Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, And take away the foreskins of your hearts, You men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Lest My fury come forth like fire, And burn so that no one can quench it, Because of the evil of your doings.

The wall that said the Gentile could not worship God WAS NOT put up by God, but by man.

God Bless!

God circumcised Abraham's heart before he gave him outward circumcision as a sign of his inward circumcision by God. His outward circumcion was an act of faith of what God had already done in his heart.

Genesis 17

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.


John 7

22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. 23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Circumcision of the flesh was the outward sign that God used beginning with Abraham as a sign to the world of His mark of separation from the world. God first gave Abraham, a Gentile (meaning - of the world, of the nations), circumcision as a sign of the covenant that God made with him. Abraham by faith agreed to the covenant and accepted it and God saved him, circumcising Abraham's heart.

Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Abraham's circumcision separated the circumcised of God from the uncircumcised of the world. God's circumsion was never a means to separate two different races of people, Jews and Gentiles. At the time that He gave Abraham circumcision there were no Jews. There was no people or place called "Israel". When God saved Abraham, He changed Abram's name at the same time to Abraham.

God separated Abraham and his father's house from the world way back in Genesis 11 when God first called his father, Terah, out of the land of Ur to Haran to journey to the promised land of Canaan, and separated him and his house from his father's house, the world. Then God separated Abraham out of his father's house and sent him to the promised land, of Canaan. Then is when God searated Abraham from all the world and made him a Hebrew, the first Hebrew (Gen. 14).

And God separated Abraham and His wife Sarah and his entire household from the world at that time.

God changed Sarah's name also when she came into covenant with God and accepted His circumcision of the heart. But unlike Abraham and all males who had to also circumcise the outward flesh to reveal God's mark of His inward work of His covenant of circumcision, He didn't require outward circumcision of her flesh or the flesh of any female after that.

Then God separated Abraham's house into two groups before He gave him circumcision: Hebrews and Strangers.

Hebrews were not a particular race of people. Neither were strangers. Hebrews were God 'sspecial chosen servants His possession to obey and please God, forgetting about their own wants and desires. While Strangers within the home of God's special servant became his special servants, his possession to fulfill their master's will. Their desire had to be to please him at all cost. As Abraham came into covenant with God, his servants within his household came into covenant with him. The only way that Strangers could come into covenant with God and receive His inward circumcision was by coming into covenant with the Hebrew who owned him and kept him as his slave in his own household to serve his hiousehold.

On the day that God gave Abraham circumcision, Abraham served his servants. He is the one who circumcised them instead of the other way around. Notice that God didn't tell Abraham to get someone else circumcise him. He told Abraham to do it himself and also to circumcise all in His house.

And Abraham separated the Strangers and made them into two different groups of strangers even though all the Strangers were Abraham's servants. And even if some of them dwelled in his own house.

Only those strangers within his household whom he had purchased, plus any males born in his house of those he had purchased, bought with a price could receive the outward sign of the covenant, circumcision of the flesh.

Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Gen 17:23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.

Gen 17:24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

Gen 17:25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

Gen 17:26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.

Gen 17:27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.



Abraham was made the father of this world to show forth His heavenly Father, owner of heaven and earth. Abraham's Master had circumcised Abraham's heart Himself. Abraham's true circumcision was the work of God Himself alone, without the help of human hands. Man's outward circumcision only revealed Go's inward circumcision which separated Abraham's house from all of the rest of the world.

Paul explains in Romans 4:

Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.



And we find this wall of separation become more pronounced with the law of Moses. Everything was separated into two groups: the circumcised from the uncircumcised, the clean from the unclean

Lev 19:23 And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten of.










.

Studyin'2Show
Jun 30th 2008, 07:28 PM
Shirley, you're still talking physical circumcision. It's like we're discussing apples and oranges. God told those before Messiah what He really wanted circumcised and reiterated that after the cross as well. Like every other commandment, it is about THE HEART. That is the point! None of this, not one thing I do is because of a law of requirement. It is ALL about the DESIRE I have to do God's will. Are you a believer solely because you want fire insurance so you don't go to hell? Or is it because you DESIRE to be in the presence of the Father?

As for the wall of separation that comes from God, that still exist and is not about Jew or Gentile. It is about those who serve YHWH and those who serve the enemy. We, as followers of Yeshua have been and continue to be sanctified; set apart - separated from the world. The wall Paul was referring to is the one that made Peter believe he could not eat in a Gentile home or even associate with Gentiles. That is the wall that comes from man, because that is not in God's Law.

God Bless!

ShirleyFord
Jun 30th 2008, 11:11 PM
Shirley, you're still talking physical circumcision. It's like we're discussing apples and oranges. God told those before Messiah what He really wanted circumcised and reiterated that after the cross as well.

No Denise, I'm talking about - or rather sharing from Scripture what God said and did before the law of Moses - both physical and spiritual circumcision.

Are you saying that God called Abraham that God had to wait for thousands of years - until His Son, Jesus Christ, the Promised Messiah to Israel, who is God, took on flesh and lived another 33 years and then died, but had to wait 3 more days before He physically raised bodily from the grave - because of the covenant God made with Abraham to circumcise him him spiritually!?

If that is what you are saying, let me ask you this, How do you believe that anyone was saved or could be saved before Calvary?

This is what Jesus, the Jews Messiah actually said:

Jn 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

And then Peter says this at the temple in Jerusalem a short time after Penticost:

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


At the beginning of the earthly ministry of Christ, at least 3 1/2 years before Jesus was crucified, the full-blooded Jew, John one of the 12 disciples and an apostle, who was an eye-witness and gives us first-hand knowlege of what Jesus - the Jews promised Messiah who took on flesh and was born a full-blooded, 100% Jew, of the chosen tribe of the 12 tribes Jacob (The tribe of Judah!), whose name God changed to Israel, when he separately entered covenant with his father's God and his grandfather's God before him - we find recorded in John 5, that Jesus is in Jerusalem during the time that a feast of the Jews was going on.

John 5:1 After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

But notice that Jesus doesn't go to the temple - where multitudes have gathered together in Jerusalem from all over the world such great and joyous excitement since this year is the year that Daniel 500 years ago prophecied would be the year of the Coming of the Promised Messiah the Prince to Daniel's people when He would be cut off (but not for Himself) not for Daniel and his people only but for all people. Jesus died and rose again for all tribes of all peoples of this world!

We find two groups of Jews in Jerusalem that day for the feast of the Jews:

Group #I

1.Those who are males who have been been circumcised according to the law of Moses
2. They have brought their little lambs with them to the feast and given them to the priests to kill and offer the animal's blood up to God for their sins so Messiah could hurry up and come back according to the law of Moses
3. They have come to the feast at the temple in Jerusalem to praise and worship God for all of His goodness and mercy to Israel
4. They are waiting for the Promised Messiah of Israel who was prophecied by all of the prophets of old that He would come when they turned back to God of their father Abraham and He forgave them of all their sins

Group #2

1. Those who are males who have been circumcised according to the law of Moses
2. But they can't have their sins forgiven that day since they don't have any little lambs to take to the priests at the temple to have the blood of the lamb applied for their sins. So they would be unclean according to the law of Moses and cut off from God and His people according to the law of Moses to give to Israel in the wilderness at Mt Sinai. And their outward circumcision would be null and void because of their being unclean, according to the law of Moses Neither can they worship God away from God''s sanctuary located within the main temple building where the holy sanctuary of God was located.
3. So they are not allowed to come to feast that day with the other Jews gathered there.
4. They too are waiting for their Messiah to come.


Jesus seems not to be impress with their carnal celebrations and feastings as they most likely are singing and dancing singing the Song of Moses and playing timbrels singing to the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, their Messiah (as I was taught to sing and do back in the 70s that my leaders said would bring Israel's Messiah back quicker the more we sang the Song of Moses and praised Him with all of our being). He doesn't go near the temple nor join in with them in their celebrations.

He goes to another great multitude of people who are the outcast of Israel, the lost sheep, those who have been separated from the rest of Israel and not allowed to join in all the feasting with them enter into His presence with their highest of praises in worship to their Holy One of Israel, who has been in Heaven with His Father God throughout eternity until He was conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary by God the Holy Ghost.

This great multitude of people are in the city of Jerusalem on the temple grounds but hidden away out of sight from the main building of the temple and the other temple buildings by the sheep market. And they couldn't see a thing going on.

2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.

3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.

These were all Jews also in Jerusalem. Why were they prevented from gathering with the rest of Israel in joy and celebration at the temple?

There is no law of Moses anywhere from Genesis - Deuteronomy that would prevent this great multitude from being included in all the gathering and feasts at the temple on the Jews feast days. But the Jewish leaders ruling over Israel from Jerualem with all authority from God according to the law of Moses to enforce the law of Moses: the high priest of Israel and his priests (selected from both the Pharisees and Sadducees John 1:19, 24) ,used a law that God had given for selecting all of the priests who performed the work of the temple in continually offering the blood of animal sacrifices daily.

They had to be perfect physically in every shape and form of the physical appearance in order to enter the sanctuary of the temple.

So why were this multitude of sick people prevented by the priests to obey Moses law? As we read the rest if tge account we can easily see how they deceived these poor old sick and invalid and hopeless people into believing that God would help them in a "super-natural" way to rid themselves from their uncleaness so they could have their sins forgiven by the priests who then could take the blood of their sacrifices and offer it up to God for them. Undoubtedly, this was the Jews thinking in the 1st century since it was handed down to them by the priests whom God had placed in charge of His people Israel and their laws. But we don't find what is written next in v. 4 anything even similiar in the law of Moses or anywhere else in the Bible.

4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 1st 2008, 12:24 AM
Shirley, we're obviously having two different conversations. :hmm: I am completely confused as to what you're talking about. :confused What makes you think that Yeshua did not go to the temple? Anyway, whether He went to the temple or not really has little to do with the OP. We know that He kept God's Law perfectly as the Father had always intended. We are told to be imitators of Him. So how could me keeping His Torah in my heart be wrong? How can imitating Him be wrong? :hmm:

God Bless!

Raybob
Jul 1st 2008, 04:14 AM
Shirley, we're obviously having two different conversations. :hmm: I am completely confused as to what you're talking about. :confused What makes you think that Yeshua did not go to the temple? Anyway, whether He went to the temple or not really has little to do with the OP. We know that He kept God's Law perfectly as the Father had always intended. We are told to be imitators of Him. So how could me keeping His Torah in my heart be wrong? How can imitating Him be wrong? :hmm:

God Bless!


Going to a Temple on Sabbaths was not part of God's Law, that was instituted by the Pharisees. According to God's laws, people were not permitted to go far from their home and were supposed to rest on the Sabbath. If you want to keep God's laws now, you must be well aware that can't even start your car on a Sabbath day because just starting the engine is burning the gas (kindling a fire).

Exo 35:3
(3) Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Raybob

Studyin'2Show
Jul 1st 2008, 10:17 AM
Going to a Temple on Sabbaths was not part of God's Law, that was instituted by the Pharisees. According to God's laws, people were not permitted to go far from their home and were supposed to rest on the Sabbath. If you want to keep God's laws now, you must be well aware that can't even start your car on a Sabbath day because just starting the engine is burning the gas (kindling a fire).

Exo 35:3
(3) Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

RaybobThat was the point I was making to Shirley. Whether Yeshua went to the temple or not for the feast has nothing to do with what we're discussing. As for not starting your car, THAT was instituted by the rabbis as well because I've never started my car in my habitation. :rolleyes: Anyway, I know how much effort it takes to 'kindle' a fire and turning a key in my ignition ain't it. You see, Yeshua clarified much of these things during His ministry on earth. Showing us the way torah was to be lived out to perfection. Yet, He did all manner of things during the Sabbath that the religious leaders got all bent out of shape over, but He was always in God's will. Why? Because as I have been attempting to point out, it has ALWAYS been about the heart. The Sabbath was NEVER meant to lord over us; it was made FOR us to enjoy and reflect and remember. If you interpret Torah with the flesh, you would have been in the mob accusing Yeshua of wrongdoing. But if you interpret it with your heart....well, ain't that the point? :hmm:

God Bless!

Raybob
Jul 1st 2008, 05:55 PM
As for not starting your car, THAT was instituted by the rabbis as well because I've never started my car in my habitation. :rolleyes: Anyway, I know how much effort it takes to 'kindle' a fire and turning a key in my ignition ain't it.

If I strike a flint near some olive oil or if I turn the key which fires up the motor of a car, I AM kindling a fire. You must not have an attached garage like I do. For me to be Torah observant, I would have to park my car outside the garage before Friday night or I would have to walk my Sabbath's journey, not drive it. If I wanted to light a fire in my fireplace in the winter, I'd have to make sure it was light before Friday night and be sure that it didn't go out until Saturday night.


You see, Yeshua clarified much of these things during His ministry on earth. Showing us the way torah was to be lived out to perfection. I suppose I read my bible differently than you do. I see the opposite of what you see.

Rom 8:2
(2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

He has put that 'law' into my heart.

Heb 8:10
(10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

If I follow His two commandments, I don't need to think of the law.

Mat 22:37-40
(37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
(38) This is the first and great commandment.
(39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
(40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Raybob

pinky
Jul 1st 2008, 07:16 PM
Tts 3:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Tts/Tts003.html#9) But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Ta-An
Jul 1st 2008, 07:56 PM
I bow out and come back and bow out and come back........

Back to the OP :D

This question is addressed to people who called themselves Christians in the fashion that Jesus is their Lord and Savior. Why do you now observe certain elements of the First Covenant such as the Holy Festivals and Sabbaths? I am speaking to saints who formerly observed mainstream protestant or catholic doctrines and traditions which excluded First Covenant traditions.

We as Christians say we are Living Christ.... have you ever heard that saying :hmm:
Well... I have.
Now if we believe that Christ is revealed in the scripture Jn 5:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. then is it not by implcation that we are living torah.... even every Christian :idea:

Stefen
Jul 1st 2008, 08:26 PM
The Feast's of the Lord were shadows of things to come. Some believe that 4 of the feasts have been fulfilled and 3 are left, others believe all of them have been fulfilled. This is because Jesus has fulfilled all of these things in his body, pertaining to the feast. but now yet to the nation of Israel. Yet the body of Christ is grafted in to the promises of Israel and it's inheritance. So can they be separtared? The answer can be debated until we are all blue in the face.

Now since the Feasts are shadows of thing that happened or are to happen regarding our Saviour and King, it is probably a joy and a previlage to celebrate the things that were practised for thousand of years to prepare the minds of Israel for the coming of their Messiah. Regardless of whether they have peen partially or compleletly fulfilled, it is a blessing to partake of a culture that revolves around Jesus.

If some are led by the spirit to do these things then why hinder them? If others are not led then why try to pursuade them? Those who are inspired to eat should eat, those who are not shouldn't All things should be done for your love of God.

Me personlay, I would rather celebrate the Feasts than Christmas or easter. They have more root in God.

People that are celebrating these things are not taking the Yoke of the law upon them, but on the contrary, they are doing something out of freedom and celebration. It is not as if they are saying you must do this or that; rather, they are saying this is what I was led to do and I am experiencing Joy in the Lord from it. Why hinder this?

Let everything that we do be for our love for one another and God.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 1st 2008, 09:49 PM
Tts 3:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Tts/Tts003.html#9) But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.Wise words! :) Let each of us follow as the Holy Spirit leads us and do all to the glory of God. :pp

Mograce2U
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:35 AM
Hi Stephen, #106 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1693555&postcount=106)
I suppose the contention over shadows is how we are to see them. Did you know that there are some Catholics who celebrate Easter and yet do not know the Lord is alive? They celebrate the cross well enough but are ignorant of the most important part of why He died. To say the last 3 feasts have not been fulfilled yet but celebrate them anyway, is a bit like those who do this with Easter.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:04 AM
Hi Stephen, #106 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1693555&postcount=106)
I suppose the contention over shadows is how we are to see them. Did you know that there are some Catholics who celebrate Easter and yet do not know the Lord is alive? They celebrate the cross well enough but are ignorant of the most important part of why He died. To say the last 3 feasts have not been fulfilled yet but celebrate them anyway, is a bit like those who do this with Easter.That's not really a fair representation of catholics, Robin. I went to catholic school through high school graduation and although I was not saved until age 31, I would have called myself catholic until then. They are aware that Messiah has resurrected and is seated at the right hand of the Father. They may miss the mark on many other things but that's not one of them. Though many say that because the crucifix has Him on the cross, that means they still think He's there is really not a fair assessment. They are simply remembering His great sacrifice.

As for the fulfillment of the feasts, most of those who celebrate them believe that Messiah fulfilled them ALL! Many, like myself, believe there is still more fulfillment to come in the fall feast. Many Bible prophecies see more than one type of fulfillment. But either way, whether looking back in remembrance or looking forward in anticipation as long we do everything we do to the glory of God, why would that be a problem?

manichunter
Jul 2nd 2008, 05:30 PM
That's not really a fair representation of catholics, Robin. I went to catholic school through high school graduation and although I was not saved until age 31, I would have called myself catholic until then. They are aware that Messiah has resurrected and is seated at the right hand of the Father. They may miss the mark on many other things but that's not one of them. Though many say that because the crucifix has Him on the cross, that means they still think He's there is really not a fair assessment. They are simply remembering His great sacrifice.

As for the fulfillment of the feasts, most of those who celebrate them believe that Messiah fulfilled them ALL! Many, like myself, believe there is still more fulfillment to come in the fall feast. Many Bible prophecies see more than one type of fulfillment. But either way, whether looking back in remembrance or looking forward in anticipation as long we do everything we do to the glory of God, why would that be a problem?


I have just gotten the access to be here and the thread has blown up. I see you have been lone wolfing to a certain degree. The thread has kind of taken a turn from the true intent. I wanted to know why other believers had come to observe and celebrate the Festivals. It seems like the old school traditionalist are trying to save us from this venture of observing and celebrating Yeshua in and by His Holy Days.

I would like to reinterate that I want to reach out to more Messianic minded and Hebrew rooted believers. I want to know of their experience and what got them to this point.

Was it study, church membership, or a friend that lead you to this side of knowing Jesus as Yeshua, not just Iesous any more.

Mograce2U
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:11 PM
That's not really a fair representation of catholics, Robin. I went to catholic school through high school graduation and although I was not saved until age 31, I would have called myself catholic until then. They are aware that Messiah has resurrected and is seated at the right hand of the Father. They may miss the mark on many other things but that's not one of them. Though many say that because the crucifix has Him on the cross, that means they still think He's there is really not a fair assessment. They are simply remembering His great sacrifice.

As for the fulfillment of the feasts, most of those who celebrate them believe that Messiah fulfilled them ALL! Many, like myself, believe there is still more fulfillment to come in the fall feast. Many Bible prophecies see more than one type of fulfillment. But either way, whether looking back in remembrance or looking forward in anticipation as long we do everything we do to the glory of God, why would that be a problem?I wasn't trying to represent all Catholics in that light, only that it is possible to celebrate something religious in ignorance, and was speaking from my own experience. If you were not saved until age 31, wasn't that true of you too? I know it was for me.

The return of the Lord is not going to be to take care of sin again, but to bring salvation to His people. The Day of the Atonement has already taken place. Therefore to celebrate it as a yet future thing to be fulfilled seems to not see the cross as sufficient. And as Paul said WE have the atonement - therefore we are the ones to be in view as who are saved.

Also it seems to me that the things we do which are to glorify the Lord, ought to be those things which make His works known. Saying we do not yet have the assurance of the salvation Jesus wrought for us upon the cross and in the resurrection, is not making these things known - even though we may "glory" in the shadows of those things - which have since come in their fulfillment. We cannot deny the Lord and still expect what we do to bring Him glory. This was and is Israel's mistake and we ought not to follow after them in their error. Making these feasts still applicable and future to Israel who denies the Lord, is saying that the cross was not enough to save them. Whether you are aware of it or not, that is the message that comes forth, that the Lord did not deliver the promise to them.

Which is just like we did when we celebrated Easter and Christmas and yet did not know the Lord because we were ignorant of the gospel - we didn't know what we were doing. The feasts were prophetic and are referred to as solemn because of what it was they predicted. Deliverance did not come without death as the judgment of God went forth. Dealing with our sin is serious business as the first Passover shows. You can't give a hope in another day of atonement - for any people - when that day has already come and gone.

I am probably over emphasizing my point in trying to get it across, but that is because double-mindedness is what these other doctrines produce. Israel's only hope is in the cross and resurrection of Jesus, there is no other hope to give them. And to take part of what we have away so as to give it to them - is just wrong, and ought not to be something we celebrate!

Its like singing Christmas carols when I was still in unbelief - they were just a lovely song because I had no understanding. Celebrating the feasts with a wrong view of what they were about and in ignorance of what fulfilled them, does not bring the Lord glory. To say such things are what we are anticipating because they have not come yet is to take Israel's view of these same things. Such unbelief is what caused them to miss His first coming and will be what dooms them at His second. Which is the equivalent of not having any hope at all.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:15 PM
Robin, I understand that worshiping in ignorance as I did and you seem to have done before actually being saved brings no glory to Him. However, that is NOT what we're talking about here. We're talking about believers who are saved that have different interpretations of prophecy. That does not affect salvation. As I said before I don't know of any believer who does not acknowledge that ALL the feast have fulfillment in Him. Of course Yeshua is our atonement! However, there are those like myself who see that there is additional fulfillment to come in the fall feasts. This is a prophecy issue and knowing and respecting that you are a partial preterist we are not going to agree on this. :D So, since the OP now has access to this thread again and has clarified things, let's respect his wishes and allow the thread to move back into the direction he'd like. which seems to be why those who have begun celebrating the LORD's Feasts, His Sabbath, etc were led to do so.

Personally, it was simply reading His word that led me in this direction. My mother who got saved about a year and a half before I did, was doing a study on Christmas and asked me to help her research some things. This was before we were so internet savvy so we actually went to the library! :lol: Anyway, it wasn't from a negative position, she was just led to look for the origin which we innocently believed would be shown in scripture. What we found was unsettling. We began to cry out to the Lord for guidance and understanding. It was about two years before we began celebrating the Passover and about five years before we began to celebrate the other Feasts of the LORD and the Sabbath. It has been an interesting journey in which His Spirit has led me each and every step of the way. Our house fellowship is non-denominational but my hubby and I were youth directors at a Southern Baptist Church for almost seven years, the last four of which our family was not celebrating Christmas or easter. We never disrespected or judged our brothers and sisters who did. We were in the choir and would sing when they had Cantatas celebrating Yeshua's birth and also His sacrifice and resurrection, as we do celebrate and rejoice in those things; everyday not just once a year. Anyway, my testimony would probably take up pages and since I know people don't read super long posts, I'll stop here. :D

God Bless!

manichunter
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:06 AM
Robin, I understand that worshiping in ignorance as I did and you seem to have done before actually being saved brings no glory to Him. However, that is NOT what we're talking about here. We're talking about believers who are saved that have different interpretations of prophecy. That does not affect salvation. As I said before I don't know of any believer who does not acknowledge that ALL the feast have fulfillment in Him. Of course Yeshua is our atonement! However, there are those like myself who see that there is additional fulfillment to come in the fall feasts. This is a prophecy issue and knowing and respecting that you are a partial preterist we are not going to agree on this. :D So, since the OP now has access to this thread again and has clarified things, let's respect his wishes and allow the thread to move back into the direction he'd like. which seems to be why those who have begun celebrating the LORD's Feasts, His Sabbath, etc were led to do so.

Personally, it was simply reading His word that led me in this direction. My mother who got saved about a year and a half before I did, was doing a study on Christmas and asked me to help her research some things. This was before we were so internet savvy so we actually went to the library! :lol: Anyway, it wasn't from a negative position, she was just led to look for the origin which we innocently believed would be shown in scripture. What we found was unsettling. We began to cry out to the Lord for guidance and understanding. It was about two years before we began celebrating the Passover and about five years before we began to celebrate the other Feasts of the LORD and the Sabbath. It has been an interesting journey in which His Spirit has led me each and every step of the way. Our house fellowship is non-denominational but my hubby and I were youth directors at a Southern Baptist Church for almost seven years, the last four of which our family was not celebrating Christmas or easter. We never disrespected or judged our brothers and sisters who did. We were in the choir and would sing when they had Cantatas celebrating Yeshua's birth and also His sacrifice and resurrection, as we do celebrate and rejoice in those things; everyday not just once a year. Anyway, my testimony would probably take up pages and since I know people don't read super long posts, I'll stop here. :D

God Bless!


That is not true, I was reading it, and then all of the sudden, what next LOL.

Hey I want to know something. Are some people trying to save us from observing the Holy Festivals and worshipping Jesus on these days. They believe that we are worshipping in vain and doing needless things that bring us back into bondage.

Are some trying to defend the core Christian doctrine that the law is passed away, hence they must stop such heresy from spreading. Basically what are their motives? I do not know. I am relatively new to this type of public communication. I want to know why those don't observe the Sabbath attack us so aggressively even to the point of sterilizing and hidding some of our post? I have got things wrong? Help a brother out.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 3rd 2008, 10:35 AM
No one is 'hiding posts' because we keep Sabbath. :o This is a Protestant message board and it is not allowed to teach that keeping Sabbath is required. I hate to paint people with a broad brush but some do promote mandatory Sabbath keeping to the point of teaching that the 'mark of the beast' is/will be those who worship on Sunday and do not keep Sabbath. So, when it appears that someone is saying Sabbath is a requirement, the moderators on this board (including myself) are quick to get rid of it and clarify the poster's position.

As for why some come against those who keep Sabbath and the Feast etc., I haven't quite figured that out yet. :hmm: I guess your heresy theory is probably it. They think that having God's torah (law) written in your heart is different than what I think. They believe that when Jeremiah prophesied that God would write torah (law) in our hearts, He meant a 'different' law. They believe that the 'Law of Christ' and the 'Law of God' are fundamentally opposed. Nonetheless, there are many who are beginning to move toward living a spiritual torah, not out of obligation, but because they desire (heart) to walk as Yeshua walked.

God Bless!

ShirleyFord
Jul 3rd 2008, 10:36 AM
That is not true, I was reading it, and then all of the sudden, what next LOL.

Hey I want to know something. Are some people trying to save us from observing the Holy Festivals and worshipping Jesus on these days. They believe that we are worshipping in vain and doing needless things that bring us back into bondage.

Are some trying to defend the core Christian doctrine that the law is passed away

Moses is dead. He was a good Jew. He was a prophet of God who prophecied of "that Prophet", Israel's own Messiah, promised by God to Abraham, 430 years before Moses delivered the children of Israel, Abraham's seed, direct descendants of Abraham's grandson Jacob, whose name God changed when he by faith believed on Israel's Messiah. He knew Him. Moses met the Promised Messiah on Mt. Sinai when Moses asked God to show him His glory. His Name is JESUS! Moses knew Him. And called Him by Name, "That Prophet!" His Name is JESUS!

But Moses was not God, nor the only begotton of the Holy Ghost Son of God. Jesus was. Jesus still is. And Jesus will ever shall be as he has alway ever has been, EVERLASTING! ETERNAL! "...and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)

Moses is dead. His body was buried by God in the wilderness. He brought a multitude out of the physical bondage of Egypt from all 12 tribes of Israel, the seed and direct descendants of Abraham to the other side the River out into the wilderness. And although they obeyed physically what God told them to do, their lack of faith in their Coming Promised Messiah who delivered them from the slavery of Pharoah, who parted the waters of the Red Sea so they could cross the sea on dry ground out of Egypt on their way to the Promised Land But only 2 men, Joshua and Caleb, who walked on dry ground through the Red Sea over to the other side on their way to Canaan Land that God promised to Abraham that his seed would do, crossed over the Jordan River into the Promised Land. And Joshua and Caleb dug up the bones of dead Moses and carried them over Jordan and buried them in the Promised Land. And Moses up in heaven in New Jerusalem is still awaiting the redemption of his body when His Lord comes again.

Peter preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
one day soon after Penticost to the multitudes of unbelieving Jews who had rejected Christ Jesus, their Lord their Messiah. But were in Jerusalem that day no doubt celebrating at the temple at one of the yearly sabbath feasts praying for their Messiah to come and deliver Israel from the bondage of Rome as Moses delivered the children of Israel out of Egypt through the Red Sea.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be
saved.

Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.


When they saw the miracle, they knew that Jesus was the Jews' Messiah. And were then convinced that their anti-God Jews, their religious leaders had lied to them that Jesus was buried and dead. These 4000 of the household of Jacob from every tribe of Israel had seen full proof with their very own eyes that Jesus is indeed Risen From The Grave! He is Alive! He Lives! ALWAYS! and ETERNALLY!

His work at Calvary finshed His work as Israel's Promised Messiah. And this bunch of 5000 Jewish men who had come to Moses feast to await their Messiah's Coming to them and deliver them out of their bondage of sins and transgression and make them new creatures in Him spiritually. And they knew that Because He Lives, they live.

17 But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name.

18 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.

19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.

20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.

21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

22 For the man was above forty years old, on whom this miracle of healing was shewed.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 3rd 2008, 10:40 AM
Shirley, I agree with every scripture you posted and have never once implied that Moses is not dead. :hmm: But what does that have to do with what holy days I chose to celebrate? :confused

ShirleyFord
Jul 3rd 2008, 10:50 AM
Shirley, I agree with every scripture you posted and have never once implied that Moses is not dead. :hmm: But what does that have to do with what holy days I chose to celebrate? :confused

Do you also agree with Peter?

Do you also agree with the 5000 men who received their Messiah that day and didn't need to return back to the stone temple to wait, and pray and wail crying out for their Messiah to come deliver them out of Roman bondage. Why would they now need to go back to that old dead stone temple when the true temple of God was living inside the made alive spirit by His Spirit, their Messiah, the Promised Messiah of Israel. They knew His Name now. Peter, another Jew told them plainly that His Name was JESUS!

They had been delivered out of the bondage of the false religion of the Pharisees, which they called "The Tradition of the Elders" and condemned it and them and all who believed them and reected Him and His all sufficient, inspired, infallible, with absolute authority they could trust enough and pocket it and take it to the bank.

They learned that day what I learned one night 41 years ago. As I lay on a death-bed awaiting surgery early the next morning, I heard the true gospel of Jesus Christ for the very first time in all of my 27 years of life. And I had been in Church every sabbath day (back then we were taught that Sunday was the 7th day of the week) keeping the sabbath more strict than any other Southern Baptists I knew or have ever known since. I learned what the 10% tithe was that I was to give to the Lord every sabbath before I started to school. As Daddy drove us to Church the three miles down that old dusty Bear Swamp Rd. in Oven Bottom in that old Model-A Ford, Mama gave me first 10 pennies, counting them one by one. "This 1 penny is a tenth of all the 10 pennies."

I had repeated the sinners prayer, joined the church and water baptized. I even sang in Junior Choir before graduating high school and going off to college. I was very moral. My Mama raised me that way. I thought that she was God's shadow in our home. She would skin us alive for breaking any of God's 10 commandments.

But I wasn't born-again. I needed a Savior. Someone who could deliver me. Someone to deliver me out of this darkness of hopelessness. Death! Physical Death!

No one had ever told me about spiritual death until God did by His Spirit that night, after He drew me by His Spirit and showed me Jesus. After His servant Lois, preach the glorious Gospel of my Savior and told me Jesus was His Name. I had heard His Name all of my life. But very rarely even in Church usally reserved for special seveices and holy days and feast days.

Now the Jesus that Lois talked about was nothing like the one I had heard preached for 27 years in Church. She spoke of Him like she really knew Him. Like He was a real live person. Someone who loved anyone and everyone and had all power and authority to forgive and cleanse anyone and everyone by His blood, God's only pure and perfect sacrifice that could wash away our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I was gloriously saved that night by Almighty God when I first heard the true Gospel of His Redeeming Grace, Mercy and Love:

Not in a Church Bldg but in a hospital building in a semi-private room, Lois preached the true Gospel to me.

Not from a man who was a preacher but from a nurse who was a patient in the bed beside me, Lois preached the Gospel to me.

Not on a 7th day sabbath (Fri night - Saturday or Sunday) but on a week-night, not Fri., Lois preached the Gospel to me.

Not from behind a pulpit or out in front near the altar but from her bed recovering from toe surgery, Lois preach the Gospel to me.

And He saved me. He changed me. Whereas I was dead spiritually in sins and transgressions with no hope, He lifted me up and raised me from death to life. And I was born again!

Studyin'2Show
Jul 3rd 2008, 11:53 AM
Do you also agree with Peter?Why would you ask that? Of course I do! I am a complete literalist. I believe every word in scripture! Do you believe that I think I'm saved by anything other than the blood of Messiah? If you do, you have no clue what I believe. It is by grace that we are saved, through faith, not of ourselves. Do you think I have once said that I keep Sabbath to be saved?!? :o God forbid! If anything, I keep Sabbath BECAUSE I am already saved, not as some payment for salvation. Do you have no other gods before Him as a requirement to be saved, or because you love God with all your heart? It's all about the heart! ;)

God Bless!

Studyin'2Show
Jul 3rd 2008, 12:02 PM
That addition to the one original question you posted explains a lot! Shirley, I rejoice with Lois and all the angels in heaven that you were born again! :pp Hopefully, my response above clarifies for you that I never intended to imply that salvation is based on anything but the blood of our Savior.

To manichunter, I believe this is part of the reason why some come against this so vehemently. They assume we are telling them what THEY must do to be saved, when that is not the case.

God Bless!

Brother Mark
Jul 3rd 2008, 01:25 PM
That is not true, I was reading it, and then all of the sudden, what next LOL.

Hey I want to know something. Are some people trying to save us from observing the Holy Festivals and worshipping Jesus on these days. They believe that we are worshipping in vain and doing needless things that bring us back into bondage.

Are some trying to defend the core Christian doctrine that the law is passed away, hence they must stop such heresy from spreading. Basically what are their motives? I do not know. I am relatively new to this type of public communication. I want to know why those don't observe the Sabbath attack us so aggressively even to the point of sterilizing and hidding some of our post? I have got things wrong? Help a brother out.

It is one thing to say "this is the way I wish to worship". It is another to say "This is how all should worship". You will be resisted far more when you teach or say that God prefers that folks worship within the confines or commandments in the law of Moses.

Also, you will catch a lot of resistance when you say God is torah.

Those two things will create resistance.

manichunter
Jul 3rd 2008, 02:18 PM
No one is 'hiding posts' because we keep Sabbath. :o This is a Protestant message board and it is not allowed to teach that keeping Sabbath is required. I hate to paint people with a broad brush but some do promote mandatory Sabbath keeping to the point of teaching that the 'mark of the beast' is/will be those who worship on Sunday and do not keep Sabbath. So, when it appears that someone is saying Sabbath is a requirement, the moderators on this board (including myself) are quick to get rid of it and clarify the poster's position.

As for why some come against those who keep Sabbath and the Feast etc., I haven't quite figured that out yet. :hmm: I guess your heresy theory is probably it. They think that having God's torah (law) written in your heart is different than what I think. They believe that when Jeremiah prophesied that God would write torah (law) in our hearts, He meant a 'different' law. They believe that the 'Law of Christ' and the 'Law of God' are fundamentally opposed. Nonetheless, there are many who are beginning to move toward living a spiritual torah, not out of obligation, but because they desire (heart) to walk as Yeshua walked.

God Bless!


I was not talking about this site, my bad if I lead you to believe that. I commended this site on several occassions in the Mod room..... I was talking in general about my treatment from multiple sites. This site has not condemned me. I was condemned by another site ............ as incompatible to the environment because of the same things this sites allows me to post. I guess different stripes for different folks. I cannot get mad at them.

I have not said that those who do not practice Sabbath are bad people or the anti christ spawn. I got love for all saints that worship God. It is up to the Holy Spirit to vett and discern who and what anybody is about. I will abide by the rules. I just wanted to know in general why some do attack me as a bad saint?

manichunter
Jul 3rd 2008, 02:32 PM
It is one thing to say "this is the way I wish to worship". It is another to say "This is how all should worship". You will be resisted far more when you teach or say that God prefers that folks worship within the confines or commandments in the law of Moses.

Also, you will catch a lot of resistance when you say God is torah.

Those two things will create resistance.

Thanks Mark,

I actually believe Jesus is the embodiment of the entire Scripture. That every word spoken by God comes from the heart of God, the very essence of God. God was speaking from and of His own character. When Paul said all Scripture was God breathed, that is what He meant.

It is no big deal that we disagree. I got saved from the Scripture Jn 1:1 way back in 1991. It just opened up a little more to my understanding.

Most people if I ask them is Jesus the Word of God, they would response yes. If I ask the same if this meant that Jesus is Scripture. They would probably still respond yes. Now if I say that Jesus is the Torah which is a part of Scripture, some people would hesitate to respond to go that far. It is something I except. It does not change that the fact that the fleshy torah written on tablets of stone are of no more effect. However, admitting that God also breathed Torah does create the possibiltities of others exploring new revelations that can be discovered.

Brother Mark
Jul 3rd 2008, 02:42 PM
Thanks Mark

No problemo. ;)


I actually believe Jesus is the embodiment of the entire Scripture. That every word spoken by God comes from the heart of God, the very essence of God. God was speaking from and of His own character. When Paul said all Scripture was God breathed, that is what He meant.

No doubt, since scripture came form the heart of God, that Jesus embodied (if you wish to use that word) all that is in scripture. But scripture falls far short of explaining all that Jesus is and did. Scripture, is a finite book with infinite wisdom. But it is incomplete. It is not full. But with Jesus, in Him dwelled all the fullness of God.


It is no big deal that we disagree. I got saved from the Scripture Jn 1:1 way back in 1991. It just opened up a little more to my understanding.

John 1:1 is a great verse! I love the entire passage.


Most people if I ask them is Jesus the Word of God, they would response yes. If I ask the same if this meant that Jesus is Scripture. They would probably still respond yes. Now if I say that Jesus is the Torah which is a part of Scripture, some people would hesitate to respond to go that far. It is something I except. It does not change that the fact that the fleshy torah written on tablets of stone are of no more effect. However, admitting that God also breathed Torah does create the possibiltities of others exploring new revelations that can be discovered.

Here's the problem... scripture is incomplete in the sense that it is not all God is. Torah is only part of scripture. Jesus is far more than scripture. He is not the written word. The Torah did not exist in the beginning. It was written down later. Jesus is not scripture. The bible is not God. They are two different things. The bible does not teach that "in the beginning was the Bible and the Bible was God...". The word referred to in John 1 is far bigger than the written word we call the scriptures. We do not pray to the scriptures. Nor do we worship the scriptures. The scriptures are limited in a way that God is not limited.

The scriptures are only a part. But we will know in full. God is the Word. The scriptures contain part of God's words. We worship the Word not the scriptures.

Now, as for discussions on the Torah, that is something we can go on about in many different ways. I love the Torah and the rest of the OT. But you will find little agreement in Christendom that the scriptures are God or that the Torah is God.

Mograce2U
Jul 3rd 2008, 02:42 PM
I thought of starting another thread but perhaps this fits here. Isaiah has a memory verse which many are familiar with:

(Isa 55:10-11 KJV) For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: {11} So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Rain falling on the earth often symbolizes the word of God in scripture. But notice the rain also rises back up from whence it came once it has accomplished the purpose for which it was sent. Here we can see that the word of God sent into the earth - thru the Law and prophets was to accomplish something specific as well. In this case to bring forth the Seed into the earth to work salvation. That Word has returned to the Father from whence He came.

The Law - the old covenant which was fading and vanishing away; as well as the fulfillment of the prophecies given about Messiah, have also returned to the Lord, having accomplished what they were sent to do. I believe Rev 11 gives us this picture in the 2 witnesses typified by Moses and Elijah.

God has done a new work in the earth:

(Isa 43:19 KJV) Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

(Isa 28:21 KJV) For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

The heavens are no more like brass to His people - He hears and answers our prayers anytime that we approach Him by faith. The old temple stood as the way for the people to approach God, which includes the holy days and their feasts; to keep this hope alive and the people consecrated before Him. We don't need to celebrate those things anymore because we have a new and living way to come before the Lord. And the Lord's Table is where we celebrate this work He has done for us - our salvation.

The word of the Lord that is in the earth today is written in the hearts of His people. Though some still try to lay hold of the stone tablets, the ark of the covenant, the temple and its rituals - these things have passed from us. Our worship is in spirit and in truth, our drink is living waters, our sacrifice which we eat is Christ Himself. The shadows fade away when exposed to His glorious light. He is not teaching us thru those things anymore which the levitical priests once administered to teach the people, rather His Holy Spirit guides us into all righteousness.

manichunter
Jul 3rd 2008, 03:17 PM
No problemo. ;)



No doubt, since scripture came form the heart of God, that Jesus embodied (if you wish to use that word) all that is in scripture. But scripture falls far short of explaining all that Jesus is and did. Scripture, is a finite book with infinite wisdom. But it is incomplete. It is not full. But with Jesus, in Him dwelled all the fullness of God.



John 1:1 is a great verse! I love the entire passage.



Here's the problem... scripture is incomplete in the sense that it is not all God is. Torah is only part of scripture. Jesus is far more than scripture. He is not the written word. The Torah did not exist in the beginning. It was written down later. Jesus is not scripture. The bible is not God. They are two different things. The bible does not teach that "in the beginning was the Bible and the Bible was God...". The word referred to in John 1 is far bigger than the written word we call the scriptures. We do not pray to the scriptures. Nor do we worship the scriptures. The scriptures are limited in a way that God is not limited.

The scriptures are only a part. But we will know in full. God is the Word. The scriptures contain part of God's words. We worship the Word not the scriptures.

Now, as for discussions on the Torah, that is something we can go on about in many different ways. I love the Torah and the rest of the OT. But you will find little agreement in Christendom that the scriptures are God or that the Torah is God.

I worship Jesus as well and nothing else. However, I think I am talking about something else. I am not talking about the written word at all. I am not talking about the shadow. I am talking talking about actual Word of God.

Yes God said we know in part now, but yet the Scripture contain everything God ordained for man as of now for the following as Paul said.

2Ti 3:16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ti+3:16&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
What we have today is a shadow of things to come. My physical body is a shadow of things to come. My body has yet to be glorified but I have already been conceived as a child of God. The actual is real and present with God in His thoughts before I was manifested in the flesh. God does not create anything as we think from a linear prospective.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 3rd 2008, 03:48 PM
The heavens are no more like brass to His people - He hears and answers our prayers anytime that we approach Him by faith. The old temple stood as the way for the people to approach God, which includes the holy days and their feasts; to keep this hope alive and the people consecrated before Him. We don't need to celebrate those things anymore because we have a new and living way to come before the Lord. And the Lord's Table is where we celebrate this work He has done for us - our salvation.

The word of the Lord that is in the earth today is written in the hearts of His people. Though some still try to lay hold of the stone tablets, the ark of the covenant, the temple and its rituals - these things have passed from us. Our worship is in spirit and in truth, our drink is living waters, our sacrifice which we eat is Christ Himself. The shadows fade away when exposed to His glorious light. He is not teaching us thru those things anymore which the levitical priests once administered to teach the people, rather His Holy Spirit guides us into all righteousness.Here's where we disagree, Robin, the Feasts of the LORD and the Sabbath were never tied to temple worship or even to the Tabernacle, so they have nothing to do with how we approach the Father. BTW, the temple is still in effect, it is the body as is the tabernacle which is Yeshua Himself. Where you see something done away with I see complete fulfillment. The tabernacle was always to be a representation of Yeshua and through Him is STILL the ONLY way anyone is going to approach the Father! The temple has always been a representation of the believer, without sin. Not because we are inherently holy but because of the blood of the sacrifice we are holy. The temple was once defiled (all have sinned) then it had to be cleansed by the blood and through the miracle of the oil (the Holy Spirit) it was sanctified. The holy of holies represents the heart which MUST be pure and is to be guarded above all else.

The law is most definitely written on the hearts of His people, that is not in question. And we have been called kings and priests. Also, the light does not cause the shadow to go away but rather is what causes the shadow. If you are coming around a corner, I might see that you are coming because I see your shadow coming before you. Once the light is no lomger behind you and is then in front of you the shadow is behind you, but guess what? The shadow is still there and still represent the substance of what you are. Yeshua is the substance, as Paul writes and His shadows STILL represent Him! ;)

God Bless!

manichunter
Jul 3rd 2008, 04:07 PM
Here's where we disagree, Robin, the Feasts of the LORD and the Sabbath were never tied to temple worship or even to the Tabernacle, so they have nothing to do with how we approach the Father. BTW, the temple is still in effect, it is the body as is the tabernacle which is Yeshua Himself. Where you see something done away with I see complete fulfillment. The tabernacle was always to be a representation of Yeshua and through Him is STILL the ONLY way anyone is going to approach the Father! The temple has always been a representation of the believer, without sin. Not because we are inherently holy but because of the blood of the sacrifice we are holy. The temple was once defiled (all have sinned) then it had to be cleansed by the blood and through the miracle of the oil (the Holy Spirit) it was sanctified. The holy of holies represents the heart which MUST be pure and is to be guarded above all else.

The law is most definitely written on the hearts of His people, that is not in question. And we have been called kings and priests. Also, the light does not cause the shadow to go away but rather is what causes the shadow. If you are coming around a corner, I might see that you are coming because I see your shadow coming before you. Once the light is no lomger behind you and is then in front of you the shadow is behind you, but guess what? The shadow is still there and still represent the substance of what you are. Yeshua is the substance, as Paul writes and His shadows STILL represent Him! ;)

God Bless!

Studin,

What are your thoughts on these Scriptures.
Ge 1:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ge+1:14&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;

Le 23:2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=le+23:2&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -"Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: "The feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.
The word for seasons and feast are the same Hebrew word Moeds

Mow`ed- appointed time, meeting

What is going on here? It looks like the festivals were meant to exist in a stand along fashion as God's ordain calendar of appointments with mankind for Israel and the stranger.

ShirleyFord
Jul 3rd 2008, 04:15 PM
Here's where we disagree, Robin, the Feasts of the LORD and the Sabbath were never tied to temple worship or even to the Tabernacle, so they have nothing to do with how we approach the Father.

What about what God said to Moses at Sinai when He gave Him all of the Old Covenant Law of Moses:

Exodus 25:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering.

8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. 9 According to all that I show thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

20 And the cherubim shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be.

21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

Ex 33:10 And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.

Deut 26:10 And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O LORD, hast given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the LORD thy God:

manichunter
Jul 3rd 2008, 04:28 PM
What about what God said to Moses at Sinai when He gave Him all of the Old Covenant Law of Moses:

Exodus 25:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering.

8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. 9 According to all that I show thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

20 And the cherubim shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be.

21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

Ex 33:10 And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.

Deut 26:10 And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O LORD, hast given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the LORD thy God:

Dear maim,

Is there a literal Tabernacle or Temple in heaven? You will say yes

Did Israel have the shadow of this Temple? You will say yes

Will we one day behold this Spiritual Temple? You will say yes

Was Christ the substance of the temple in that it was symbolic of His person and mission for man? You will say yes

Why can't other shadows be both shadows of the substance of Christ and tangible at the same time if the Tabernacle is both? I will say yes

Hence we might see a lot of other shadows brought into the actual light one day. We still only see through a dim glass presently.

I do not mean this with any sarcasm, dear maim...... I could be also wrong about your responses.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 3rd 2008, 05:00 PM
Shirley, what I said was that the temple and tabernacle are not tied, in Scripture, to the Feasts of the LORD and the Sabbath. None of the scriptures you posted stated that the Feasts and Sabbath are tied to the temple or tabernacle.:)

God Bless!

Mograce2U
Jul 3rd 2008, 05:04 PM
Denise, #126 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1695910&postcount=126)
There is no shadow before or after when the light is coming from above! We are not merely memorializing the cross - we are living proof of its sufficiency and present power.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 3rd 2008, 05:36 PM
Denise, #126 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1695910&postcount=126)
There is no shadow before or after when the light is coming from above! We are not merely memorializing the cross - we are living proof of its sufficiency and present power.I beg to differ, Robin. Even at high noon there is a shadow. It's just harder to see! ;)

manichunter
Jul 3rd 2008, 05:38 PM
Denise, #126 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1695910&postcount=126)
There is no shadow before or after when the light is coming from above! We are not merely memorializing the cross - we are living proof of its sufficiency and present power.

NT Scripture says 1Co 13:12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+13:12&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. We have not seen the light per se in its fullness.......... We know that there is a light, but still do not comprehend the light (Christ) fully. That is left for His appearance when we shall be as He is.

ShirleyFord
Jul 3rd 2008, 05:51 PM
Shirley, what I said was that the temple and tabernacle are not tied, in Scripture, to the Feasts of the LORD and the Sabbath. None of the scriptures you posted stated that the Feasts and Sabbath are tied to the temple or tabernacle.:)

God Bless!

Denise,

This is what you actually said:



Here's where we disagree, Robin, the Feasts of the LORD and the Sabbath were never tied to temple worship or even to the Tabernacle, so they have nothing to do with how we approach the Father.


I posted those Scriptures from Exodus 25 to show that the only way that God gave for man to worship Him under the Old Covenant law of Moses was by way of His sanctuary (the holy place and the most holy) His resting place coverned by the tabernacle.

Exodus 25:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering.

8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. 9 According to all that I show thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

After David brought back the ark of the covenant to Jerusalem and housed it back into the sancturary in the most holy place of the tabernacle. No wonder David danced his clothes off on the journey back to Jerusalem carrying the ark of the covenant, God's presence. So the children of Israel could worship God and He inturn could fight their physical battles and protect them from physical enemies who might want to harm them.

Then after Solomon had finished with building the temple and the permant earthly house of the sanctuary: 2 rooms in the center of the temple, closed off to all except the high priest and his priests: room 1) the holy place - room 2) the most holy place, the holy of holies

The priests worshipped God by offering continual daily sacrifices to God for their own sins and the sins of all the children of Israel. Feast days, multiplied daily sacrifices beginning with the weekly sabbath feast. Those outside the sanctuary worshipped God when they visibly saw the signs that God had accepted their sacrifices that they had brought to the priests to offer for them and their households. And when they saw that He had accepted their sacrifices as payment of His grace for their sins that is when they knew that He pronounced His mercy on them in place of their sins instead of what they justly deserved because of them: His eternal wrath poured out on them. The blood applied to the mercy seat covering the arc of the covenant, God passed over them and delivered them from his death angel of wrath. Temporarily, that is.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 3rd 2008, 06:02 PM
Studin,

What are your thoughts on these Scriptures.
Ge 1:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ge+1:14&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;

Le 23:2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=le+23:2&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -"Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: "The feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.
The word for seasons and feast are the same Hebrew word Moeds

Mow`ed- appointed time, meeting

What is going on here? It looks like the festivals were meant to exist in a stand along fashion as God's ordain calendar of appointments with mankind for Israel and the stranger.I agree completely. :cool:

Mograce2U
Jul 3rd 2008, 06:16 PM
NT Scripture says 1Co 13:12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+13:12&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. We have not seen the light per se in its fullness.......... We know that there is a light, but still do not comprehend the light (Christ) fully. That is left for His appearance when we shall be as He is.First of all let me say that analogies can only go so far to aid our understanding - but they do help give us a picture of what we are talking about.

Point #1: Jesus is casting no earthly shadows from the fullness of His heavenly glory. In Him is no darkness at all.

Point #2: Seeing thru a glass darkly is because we are living in the shadowy world of flesh. Because of that we do not see the fullness of His glory, therefore we do not know everything on this side of heaven.

However at the context suggests, maturity does bring greater light. And just as the Corinthians were admonished for using the gifts of the Spirit as toys, we need to grow up and move onto faith, love and hope. Yet perfection will not be complete in us till we are with Him and like Him as He is.

So given that it is Christ who gives light to the shadowy things that were given to men because of sin - carnal ordinances and such; what ought we to expect to see in that shadow when the light of understanding comes? Would not the shadow disappear? The shadow does not become more defined so as to show you its details - it flees altogether. And if the light of Christ were casting that shadow then it becomes DARKER not brighter!

Point #3: It is not the shadow which we need to understand or see how to utilize properly; rather it is Christ Himself we need to know and obey. That light is not found in the shadow, rather it was the shadow that kept it hidden. Just as the flesh we are in keeps us from full knowledge of spiritual things - because of its carnal concerns.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 3rd 2008, 06:17 PM
I posted those Scriptures from Exodus 25 to show that the only way that God gave for man to worship Him under the Old Covenant law of Moses was by way of His sanctuary (the holy place and the most holy) His resting place coverned by the tabernacle.Yes, Shirley, you're tying the temple and the tabernacle to worship. That's not what I said. I specifically said that the FEASTS and the SABBATH are not tied to the temple or the tabernacle. You would need to post scripture that show that the feasts are somehow based on the temple or something but they don't exist. :hmm: Otherwise, we're talking apples and oranges again. :dunno:

Naphal
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:09 PM
It is one thing to say "this is the way I wish to worship". It is another to say "This is how all should worship". You will be resisted far more when you teach or say that God prefers that folks worship within the confines or commandments in the law of Moses.

Also, you will catch a lot of resistance when you say God is torah.

Those two things will create resistance.

Also believing that it is a sin for Christians not to keep the Saturday Sabbath will cause resistance.

Naphal
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:17 PM
I specifically said that the FEASTS and the SABBATH are not tied to the temple or the tabernacle.

That's true. The Sabbath was meant for people to stay in their habitations and not travel to a temple. But it was changed by man to include distant corporate worship and even today most will hop in a car and travel, sometimes even further than they did it biblical times, and go to a temple or a church for Sabbath.

ShirleyFord
Jul 3rd 2008, 10:23 PM
Yes, Shirley, you're tying the temple and the tabernacle to worship. That's not what I said. I specifically said that the FEASTS and the SABBATH are not tied to the temple or the tabernacle. You would need to post scripture that show that the feasts are somehow based on the temple or something but they don't exist. :hmm: Otherwise, we're talking apples and oranges again. :dunno:

You would need to begin then in Exodus 16 with the beginning of the feast with the very first feast of the Lord: The 7th day weekly sabbath the one day of the 7 day of creatuib weej that God set aside His people to rest in Him in worshiping and adoring His sanctuary inside of their dwelling places which became God's dwelling place that first sabbath day feast. Him. And feasting off His Heavenly bread, a shadow pointing to their promised Messiah.

I have finally found, Denise, after 41 years of walking with my Messiah, Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior, the Precious Lamb of God, that it is truly impossible for me to worship Him with out first feasting off His Heavenly Manna that fills me to overfowing with His Spirit dwelling within me. And He bathes me with His Spirit and I come fully alive in Him. I hear Him speak from with His steady flow of Living Waters Flowing over me!

God rained bread down from heaven for them. They labored hard 6 days a week to gather the abundance that God had supplied for them that they didn't have to work 1 second punching a time-clock to make. As God created every ounce of this universe, laboring with His own hands. After He finished the 6th day and created the first man and created the woman from a rib in the man's side and gave him to the man as his reward for the work that Almighty God had labored with His own hands without the labor of the man, a reward then from God is His gift to us that we haven't done anything that would make us deserve.

I sit here now, barely able to breath. I have been awake all night and all day today. Praising and Worshiping God while I do breathing treatments in my bed and taking oxygen, when I get too weak to sit here any longer. He stops the pain gives me His strength, His peace, and oh what joy I experence as He takes me in the in the spirit to His heavenly sanctuary, now you talk about a time of feasting I have. I eat His spiritual food and He quickens my mortal body after He fills me to overflowing at His table. And sets my heart to dancing!.

Jn 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

Jn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Jn 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 3rd 2008, 11:43 PM
Shirley, I praise God that you are able through Him to fellowship with us in this way. I completely agree with everything you've just said in the previous post. For me it is not an either or situation. Either celebrate the moedim OR feast on the bread of life which He gives freely to all who seek Him. I do both! :pp Praise God for the true bread! That takes nothing away from the time I spend with my friends and family glorifying Him through His Feasts! Nor does my celebration of His Feasts take anything away from my partaking of the spiritual food He sets before me. I completely respect that you have chosen not to observe His moedim, in Christ. It would be nice if you could respect that I have chosen to observe His moedim, also in Messiah! :dunno: However, I still fail to see any connection between the Sabbath and Feasts and the temple or tabernacle which is what I thought we were discussing. :hmm:

God Bless!

Studyin'2Show
Jul 4th 2008, 12:08 AM
That's true. The Sabbath was meant for people to stay in their habitations and not travel to a temple. But it was changed by man to include distant corporate worship and even today most will hop in a car and travel, sometimes even further than they did it biblical times, and go to a temple or a church for Sabbath.I'd have to disagree somewhat. Mostly because I do not believe Yeshua transgressed the Law of God....EVER! Sin is the transgression of the Law so to say that He transgressed is to say that He sinned which for me is ridiculous! :rolleyes: Yeshua traveled during the Sabbath. That tells me flat out that there is no prohibition to travel on the Sabbath. You say, "But wait, Denise, it says in Exodus 16 no man is to leave his place (habitation) on the 7th day." That was not an instruction for the generations, it was specifically for those in the wilderness. He also told them to go out and gather manna for six days, yet later generation did not go looking for manna even though God had commanded it. There were times is scripture where God gave specific commands to specific people. Like telling Ezekiel to eat bread baked with human waste as fuel and telling Isaiah to walk around with his rear end uncovered. Those were not commands for the generations (forever) but were only for specific people for a specific time. The actual commandment that was put into the ark of the covenant, there simply is no travel prohibition. Thus Yeshua traveled without transgression of Torah.

Exodus 20:8-11
8 “ Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Nothing about travel.

God Bless!

Naphal
Jul 4th 2008, 12:31 AM
I'd have to disagree somewhat. Mostly because I do not believe Yeshua transgressed the Law of God....EVER! Sin is the transgression of the Law so to say that He transgressed is to say that He sinned which for me is ridiculous!


You are forgetting the defensive concept Jesus used of "profaning the Sabbath but remaining blameless". It is possible to transgress a ceremonial law for a higher moral purpose. Christ did that on the Sabbath and he wasn't the first to do so.



:rolleyes: Yeshua traveled during the Sabbath. That tells me flat out that there is no prohibition to travel on the Sabbath. You say, "But wait, Denise, it says in Exodus 16 no man is to leave his place (habitation) on the 7th day." That was not an instruction for the generations, it was specifically for those in the wilderness.

Does it say that? I see no limitation upon it. They were told to have a convocation in their habitations plural meaning each in their own dwelling place. It was about a family staying home and resting and honoring God and the day. No working of any kind. Jesus however traveled and worked because his mission was more important than the ceremonial laws God gave about the Sabbath.

Brother Mark
Jul 4th 2008, 12:39 AM
I'd have to disagree somewhat. Mostly because I do not believe Yeshua transgressed the Law of God....EVER! Sin is the transgression of the Law so to say that He transgressed is to say that He sinned which for me is ridiculous! :rolleyes: Yeshua traveled during the Sabbath. That tells me flat out that there is no prohibition to travel on the Sabbath. You say, "But wait, Denise, it says in Exodus 16 no man is to leave his place (habitation) on the 7th day." That was not an instruction for the generations, it was specifically for those in the wilderness. He also told them to go out and gather manna for six days, yet later generation did not go looking for manna even though God had commanded it. There were times is scripture where God gave specific commands to specific people. Like telling Ezekiel to eat bread baked with human waste as fuel and telling Isaiah to walk around with his rear end uncovered. Those were not commands for the generations (forever) but were only for specific people for a specific time. The actual commandment that was put into the ark of the covenant, there simply is no travel prohibition. Thus Yeshua traveled without transgression of Torah.

Exodus 20:8-11
8 “ Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Nothing about travel.

God Bless!

In the first mention of Sabbath in the scripture, when it was first given, they were to stay in their place. But that's not the main point I would make. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. David did not sin when he transgressed the law concerning the show bread. In the same way, Jesus can break the law concerning the sabbath and not sin because he understood the Spirit of the Law as compared to the letter. If the Lord of the Sabbath wishes the Sabbath to be honored one way or another, it is a small thing to do so. I have been back and forth on this issue and I do now believe Jesus broke the sabbath but did not sin.

Brother Mark
Jul 4th 2008, 12:42 AM
I worship Jesus as well and nothing else. However, I think I am talking about something else. I am not talking about the written word at all. I am not talking about the shadow. I am talking talking about actual Word of God.

Yes God said we know in part now, but yet the Scripture contain everything God ordained for man as of now for the following as Paul said.

2Ti 3:16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ti+3:16&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
What we have today is a shadow of things to come. My physical body is a shadow of things to come. My body has yet to be glorified but I have already been conceived as a child of God. The actual is real and present with God in His thoughts before I was manifested in the flesh. God does not create anything as we think from a linear prospective.

We can agree if you mean we can't call the Torah, Jesus. For the Torah is not God nor is God the Torah. But God is the Word.

I do agree in this... the Torah is scripture. When 2 Tim was written, it was the only scripture folks had. All scripture is profitable from the Torah to Revelations. None of it is God but it did flow from God and came from His heart.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 4th 2008, 12:53 AM
Does it say that? I see no limitation upon it. They were told to have a convocation in their habitations plural meaning each in their own dwelling place. It was about a family staying home and resting and honoring God and the day. No working of any kind. Jesus however traveled and worked because his mission was more important than the ceremonial laws God gave about the Sabbath.Why not? It is not mentioned in the commandment that was for the generations. And is not mentioned anywhere else in scripture. God is like any good earthly parent....He tends to tell His children things more than once. ;)

Mark, we've had this discussion before and like my brother, the firefighter, God never intended that a person's house should burn down with no assistance because it was Sabbath. Nor did He ever intend that a midwife should not go help a pregnant woman deliver or a priest should not make the daily offerings. Life and service to God supercedes all as Yeshua demonstrated by saying that even the Pharisees would pull their donkey from a hole on the Sabbath without fault and even the priest do their 'job' on the Sabbath. God has NEVER been an ogre expecting His people to freeze or not protect themselves in war because it is Sabbath. However, Naphal was specifically speaking of travel which is not in the commandment, and that is what I was addressing. BTW, I STILL do not believe He 'transgressed' the Law, but that may be another topic for another thread! :)

God Bless!

Naphal
Jul 4th 2008, 01:24 AM
Why not? It is not mentioned in the commandment that was for the generations.

But it is mentioned earlier. It doesn't need to be repeated right? Isn't one of your positions that God doesn't change so his law doesn't change and that once commanded and not clearly rescinded that a command and law is still valid?

Raybob
Jul 4th 2008, 01:48 AM
Life and service to God supercedes all as Yeshua demonstrated

This sounds like you are implying that Jesus (Yeshua) is NOT God. Is that correct?

Curious,

Raybob
******************
Joh 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. ... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..."

Brother Mark
Jul 4th 2008, 02:11 AM
This sounds like you are implying that Jesus (Yeshua) is NOT God. Is that correct?

I can answer this for her... she is not saying that at all. She believes Jesus is fully and completely God. She is saying that Jesus fully demonstrated God and his intentions.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 4th 2008, 01:46 PM
But it is mentioned earlier. It doesn't need to be repeated right? Isn't one of your positions that God doesn't change so his law doesn't change and that once commanded and not clearly rescinded that a command and law is still valid?God does not make every command for all people. As I stated, He commanded Isaiah to walk around for quite a while with his buttock uncovered. Are we to infer that He wants everyone to not cover their rear ends? No! That command was specifically for Isaiah as was the command to eat bread made with human waste only for Ezekiel. The command not to leave their habitation was only for that time in the wilderness. We can confirm that by seeing that it was not a part of the Sabbath command. ;) We must rightly divide the word. Hermeneutics is important to analyze such things. I am not saying that every command ever given is a command for the generations.

God Bless!

Studyin'2Show
Jul 4th 2008, 01:48 PM
This sounds like you are implying that Jesus (Yeshua) is NOT God. Is that correct?Heavens no! :o Mark is quite right that I believe Yeshua is fully God and fully man.

Naphal
Jul 5th 2008, 04:06 AM
God does not make every command for all people. As I stated, He commanded Isaiah to walk around for quite a while with his buttock uncovered. Are we to infer that He wants everyone to not cover their rear ends? No! That command was specifically for Isaiah as was the command to eat bread made with human waste only for Ezekiel. The command not to leave their habitation was only for that time in the wilderness. We must rightly divide the word. Hermeneutics is important to analyze such things. I am not saying that every command ever given is a command for the generations.

God Bless!

Lets stick to the issue if you don't mind. God commanded people not to leave their habitations, and we don't need to discuss what that is specifically as long as we agree it's a limited travel distance. Now, he commanded it to Israel and my question is when did God rescind that command so that Israel could travel further on the Sabbath? I know the Pharisees made the distance further called a "Sabbath day's jopurney" but I don't see anywhere in the OT where God said it was no longer a restriction. Yes, he gave it when they were in the wilderness but where is it written it was temporary?


We can confirm that by seeing that it was not a part of the Sabbath command. ;)

What? Of course it's part of the Sabbath command:


Exodus 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

It's even part of the same sentence! Why do you feel this is no longer valid? What scripture leads you to believe that?

ShirleyFord
Jul 5th 2008, 10:42 AM
However, I still fail to see any connection between the Sabbath and Feasts and the temple or tabernacle which is what I thought we were discussing. :hmm:

God Bless!

Exodus 16

29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

31 And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.


God has given us the first 3 Chapters of Genesis 1-3 as the key to His people to use to understand what His sabbaths are and how we are to keep them.

God gave the pattern for the keeping the first 7th day sabbath when He kept it Himself so we could always have His pattern before us and know exactly how we are to keep His sabbaths according to His will and for His pleasure.

Gensis 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Where did God rest on the 7th day?

Inside His dwelling place that He created for Himself to rest: Heaven.

We find that before the sanctuary was made in the wilderness and placed in the tabernacle, wherever a man of God permanantly or just a few hours was their tabernacle, the sanctuary, where they could keep sabbath with God as His meeting place with them so they could feast off His presence and be full for the work He'd called them to. Unless we keep sabbath with Him continually everyday, we lose our strength. We lose our way. And we just sit down unable to go with Him any further.

Genesis 2

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.


4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Notice, after God had finished creating His creation, we find "heavens" (plural), more than one heaven. But Genesis 1:1 states that the first thing that God created on the 1 day of creation week was heaven (singular0, only one heaven.

. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1 Chron 27:23But David took not the number of them from twenty years old and under: because the LORD had said he would increase Israel like to the stars of the heavens.

. 2 Chron 6:18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

2 Chron 2:6But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?

Neh 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

2 Chron 6:18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built
Ps 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.


Genesis 2
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.



Genesis 1

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

But God gave all 7 days of the week to man to keep sabbath with Him. And God came down out of His habitation all 7 days of the week to earth to only the garden, which He placed in the center of the earth that He had created out of His habitation to Adam and Eve's habitation.

God is the source and object of all true worship of Him. And we can't worship God when we are out of His presence. And we have to know without a shadow of doubt that it is He Himself, the God of Heaven, the only One and true God of all creation is in our presence. I've learned that when God is in my presence, He reveals Himself a little more to me and teaches me His word and causes me to understand a little bit more what He speaks out of His written word.

In Genesis 3 we find that when God came down one day to man's habitation to keep sabbath with Him, the garden, the dwelling place of man to keep sabbath with God, Adam and Eve had hidden themselves from the presence of God:

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Adam and Eve had changed gods, their object and source of worship. Instead of keeping sabbath with their Creator that day as they had done each day before, they kept sabbath with the devil and turned their worship to him. And he became their god instead.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 5th 2008, 11:58 AM
Lets stick to the issue if you don't mind. God commanded people not to leave their habitations, and we don't need to discuss what that is specifically as long as we agree it's a limited travel distance. Now, he commanded it to Israel and my question is when did God rescind that command so that Israel could travel further on the Sabbath? I know the Pharisees made the distance further called a "Sabbath day's jopurney" but I don't see anywhere in the OT where God said it was no longer a restriction. Yes, he gave it when they were in the wilderness but where is it written it was temporary?

What? Of course it's part of the Sabbath command:

Exodus 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

It's even part of the same sentence! Why do you feel this is no longer valid? What scripture leads you to believe that?Okay, Naphal, let's break down that sentence, shall we? Right smack in the middle of that 'sentence' it says "therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days". That is a clear reference to the manna God gave them in the wilderness. Let me ask you, did you go out yesterday and gather your double portion of manna? I sure didn't and neither did any of the rabbis that have misinterpreted this passage for millennia. Is it such a shock for you that they missed the point on this as they did on so many other things including Messiah? So, no, we do NOT agree that there is some travel restriction. That statement was talking to those who were receiving physical manna daily in the wilderness. Hopefully that clarifies my position for you.

And Shirley :confused Still no reference to the temple or the tabernacle so I just don't get what it has to do with what we were discussing. ???

God Bless!

ShirleyFord
Jul 5th 2008, 12:35 PM
Okay, Naphal, let's break down that sentence, shall we? Right smack in the middle of that 'sentence' it says "therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days". That is a clear reference to the manna God gave them in the wilderness. Let me ask you, did you go out yesterday and gather your double portion of manna? I sure didn't and neither did any of the rabbis that have misinterpreted this passage for millennia. Is it such a shock for you that they missed the point on this as they did on so many other things including Messiah? So, no, we do NOT agree that there is some travel restriction. That statement was talking to those who were receiving physical manna daily in the wilderness. Hopefully that clarifies my position for you.

And Shirley :confused Still no reference to the temple or the tabernacle so I just don't get what it has to do with what we were discussing. ???

God Bless!

Denise,

This is what God commanded the Levitical priesthood according to the law of Moses to offer daily in the tabernacle after it was built and offer to double the sacrifices to be offered on the weekly sabbath.

Exodus 28
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Command the children of Israel, and say unto them, My offering, and my bread for my sacrifices made by fire, for a sweet savor unto me, shall ye observe to offer unto me in their due season.

3 And thou shalt say unto them, This is the offering made by fire which ye shall offer unto the LORD; two lambs of the first year without spot day by day, for a continual burnt offering.


The Daily Sacrifices:


4 The one lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer at even;
5 And a tenth part of an ephah of flour for a meat offering, mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil.

6 It is a continual burnt offering, which was ordained in mount Sinai for a sweet savor, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD.

7 And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.

8 And the other lamb shalt thou offer at even: as the meat offering of the morning, and as the drink offering thereof, thou shalt offer it, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savor unto the LORD.


The Weekly Sabbath Sacrifices


9 And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof:

10 This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.


The task of the priests on the weekly 7th day sabbath was to make the shewbread for the week and place it on the golden table of shewbread in the holy place for a sacrifice of sweet smelling savor offered to the Lord continually. God gave the high priest and his priests the week-old bread that they had made the week before as their food to feast on in the holy place before the Lord, where He chose to place His presence on the earth in the wilderness:

Leviticus 24

1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Command the children of Israel, that they bring unto thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamps to burn continually.

3 Without the vail of the testimony, in the tabernacle of the congregation, shall Aaron order it from the evening unto the morning before the LORD continually: it shall be a statute for ever in your generations.

4 He shall order the lamps upon the pure candlestick before the LORD continually.

5 And thou shalt take fine flour, and bake twelve cakes thereof: two tenth deals shall be in one cake.

6 And thou shalt set them in two rows, six on a row, upon the pure table before the LORD.

7 And thou shalt put pure frankincense upon each row, that it may be on the bread for a memorial, even an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.

9 And it shall be Aaron's and his sons'; and they shall eat it in the holy place: for it is most holy unto him of the offerings of the LORD made by fire by a perpetual statute.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 5th 2008, 02:22 PM
Shirley, we're still talking apples and oranges here. Robin's original point was that because there is no temple/tabernacle there should be no Sabbath or Feasts. My point is that the giving of the Feasts of the LORD and the giving of the Sabbath were BEFORE either the tabernacle OR the temple. The celebration of the feasts or sabbath are not dependent upon there being a temple/tabernacle. You posting scriptures showing what offerings were required during the temple system does not change that fact that the feasts and the sabbath PRECEDED both. ;) Look, I've said previously that I respect your choice to not celebrate these holy days given by the Father, do you yet respect my choice to celebrate? Or am I free in Christ to do everything lawful BUT this? :hmm:

Mograce2U
Jul 5th 2008, 04:38 PM
Shirley, we're still talking apples and oranges here. Robin's original point was that because there is no temple/tabernacle there should be no Sabbath or Feasts. My point is that the giving of the Feasts of the LORD and the giving of the Sabbath were BEFORE either the tabernacle OR the temple. The celebration of the feasts or sabbath are not dependent upon there being a temple/tabernacle. You posting scriptures showing what offerings were required during the temple system does not change that fact that the feasts and the sabbath PRECEDED both. ;) Look, I've said previously that I respect your choice to not celebrate these holy days given by the Father, do you yet respect my choice to celebrate? Or am I free in Christ to do everything lawful BUT this? :hmm:The people did not celebrate any feasts or sabbaths until after the covenant was made with the people and after Moses was given the instructions for the tabernacle during the 40 days he was on Mt. Sinai. God Himself 1st spoke the 10 commandments to the people and they so feared His voice that they asked that a mediator be given to them. As the people stood afar off at the base of Mt. Sinai Moses drew near and it was then God spoke to him about the other laws which concerned how the people were to treat one another and also how they were to come before the Lord in the feasts He required - after which Moses tells them all this and when the people agreed, the blood covenant was made.

It is then that God calls Moses to come up the mount for 40 days to receive the tablets of stone and gives him the instructions for the tabernacle and its service. All the instructions for service for Aaron and the priests concerned this structure and this covenant, none of which was given before the people entered into that covenant.

So if you are saying that it is because the feasts were part of the covenant, I agree. But the tabernacle was as much a part of that same covenant once the covenant was in place. You cannot separate what follows as somehow not being a part of the whole thing. The feasts were given as the means for the people to come before the presence of the Lord. The tabernacle was where that was to take place. God was not going to come among them anywhere other than to that tabernacle. And Moses was also to be the mediator to the people, as he was the only one who would be allowed to come into the presence of the Lord. All of this is what the people agreed to when they made this covenant.

This is the covenant which has faded away with all the things which it concerned now that Christ has come and inaugurated the new covenant - which is based on the promises given to Abraham - not Moses. The new covenant which seal is the Holy Spirit who circumcises our hearts not our flesh. The things given to Moses were for the flesh because of sin so the people could come before the Lord. The temple veil torn and now absent altogether, ought to show that these things are not needed anymore. So why celebrate them?

ShirleyFord
Jul 5th 2008, 07:57 PM
Look, I've said previously that I respect your choice to not celebrate these holy days given by the Father, do you yet respect my choice to celebrate? Or am I free in Christ to do everything lawful BUT this? :hmm:

Denise,

It is not my choice to obey the law of Christ. He demands it. He hasn't given me liberty to decide how I will keep His law.

And the longer I walk with Him, the more I long to please my Lord in worshipping the only true God. The more that He teaches me from His law what and how to obey, I'm able by the enabling power of His Holy Spirit to obey and cast aside those things, litle by little, the traditions of men so I can truely worship my Lord as completely as I can while still in this old earthly mortal body.

I have learned over these 41 years that the traditions of men led me away from God, away from true worship with a pure heart filled with the Holy Ghost. And that kind of worship is the only kind that is fit for our God. The only kind of sacrifice of praise and worship that is acceptable to Him.

And Jesus said that we can only worship God in Spirit, by and in His Holy Ghost.

The reason the Levitical priesthood failed God in the OT was that they knew the letter of God's law to Moses. But they convinced themselves that they were at liberty to apply the letter of the law as they themselved deemed. They convinced themselves that their power that God had given them as God's priests over His people, gave them libery to be free from the letter of God's law in practicing it. Their law then was the law of the Pharisees during the NT(the doctrine of the elders = Matt 15, Mark 7).

They were also God's scribes who preserved the letter of God's law of Moses for the generations of the 12 tribes of Israel until their Messiah, Jesus, would come to them and save them from all their enemies.

As we read through the OT, we find that all 7 days of the week were sabbaths. This day is the day that the Lord has made. I will rejoice and be glad in it. Tomorrow when it comes will be this day. And I will remember that the Lord has also made this day as He did yesterday, today. And I will rejoice and be glad in it.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 5th 2008, 09:14 PM
Shirley, when did I say I celebrate the Feasts of the LORD because I am forced to? Do you celebrate Christmas because you are forced to do so? So, once again I ask you, am I free in Christ to do everything BUT celebrate His Feasts?

Robin, I think you must have misread my words. I said that the sabbath and the feasts preceded the temple/tabernacle. You seem to be saying that the feasts and sabbath were given on Sinai. Part of that is not true. The sabbath is spoken of before Sinai, so it was actually pre-covenant. But once again the point I was making was that the feasts and sabbath were BEFORE the tabernacle/temple and thus you can not simply say that since there is no temple thus there should be no more feasts or sabbaths. The logic in that is flawed.

Now, if either of you are curious as to why I choose to observe these things, it has been the Holy Spirit that has led me. And when I read scripture, I have no clue why it's such a big deal. Scripture is clear whose feasts these are.

Leviticus 23:2 - Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘The feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.

These are GOD'S feasts, not yours or mine or the Jews, but HIS! I am a child of Abraham by faith and a child of Israel by the blood of Yeshua. I have been adopted through Him. Paul calls us the Israel of God. If you read the rest of Leviticus 23, God says these are to be His feasts FOREVER in the generations. So, if these are His forever, why would you or anyone have any trouble with me honoring them? :confused I have not told you what YOU should do, but what I desire to do. And from experience, for the two and a half years that my family and I have been enjoying these feast in Messiah and we would not trade this experience just for other people to be comfortable. We know that it is by faith that we are saved. We know it is by His striped that we are healed. We know that it is by His Spirit that we do these things. And that's enough for us. :D BTW, I would encourage any believer who feels led to experience His feasts not to be intimidated by others.

God Bless!

Mograce2U
Jul 5th 2008, 10:00 PM
Denise,
Exodus 16 is where we first see manna given to the children of Israel to eat. It was on the 15th day of the 2nd month that He also told them about the Sabbath. That was 2 weeks before the covenant at Mt. Sinai. During that time the children of Israel murmured at the manna just as they did over everything the Lord had done for them so far. All of which is part of the time of testing which led up to the reason for the covenant. There were no feasts being celebrated at that time until Moses gives them to the people as part of the covenant.

And I am not trying to make a point about whether or not one celebrates these things as unto the Lord, but am more concerned with what happens to the understanding of those who have enjoined themselves to do so. Which is probably more difficult to put forth because it seems to offend.

ShirleyFord
Jul 5th 2008, 11:05 PM
Shirley, when did I say I celebrate the Feasts of the LORD because I am forced to? Do you celebrate Christmas because you are forced to do so?

Denise, I no longer celebrate any of the Feasts of man's tradition. Haven't for many years. But I use to.

The "7th day sabbath" feast on Sunday was the most important day of the week. My mom was still complaining right before she died in 1982 about our modern-day calender and how the devil has tried to change God's sabbath by placing Sunday the 1st day of the week instead of the 7th day of the week, Saturday, like it had always been before.

Yes, I was forced to remember the sabbath to keep it holy. We remembered by going to Church on Sunday morning and giving God our tithes and offerings. We rested by not doing un-necessary work on the sabbath.

But after I was married and before I was saved at 27 yrs. old, I remembered and kept the sabbath like I had always traditionally done because that is the only way I knew to serve the Lord. No one forced me.

That's what my pastor told me the night I made a profession of faith years before and became an official member of my parent's Church. And that is what my new pastor of the new Baptist Church that I had joined after we were married told me after God saved me at 27 years old.

Now that I was a new creation in Christ Jesus, my heart ached so to serve Him, really serve Him the way that would be pleasing to Him. Somehow I knew that the key to obeying the Lord and serving Him He had written down somewhere in the Bible.

But where was it written? My mom and dad didn't know. My mom confessed to me a couple of month's before my dad died (she died 6 weeks after my dad) that she had read the Bible and heard it preached all of her life. But no matter how hard she tried. She never could understand any of it. She was 68 at the time.

I was able to lead my dad to the Lord a few months before He died. And after keeping the sabbath every Sunday all of his life, paying his tithes and offerings, ceasing all work on our farm, He finally met the true Jesus. And he was just as on fire for Him as I was. We had revival in my parents home. As long as my dad had breath to speak, he would testify to anyone and everyone about Jesus and that He was just as real as looking at the back of his hand.

I can hear him now when he would hear someone coming thru the front door, "Shirley, bring them on back here. I want to tell them about Jesus today. This might be my last day to tell them."

Why should I want to go back to serving the Lord according to man's tradition. feasting off what man tells me to eat that never satisfies my hunger to know the Lord and truly serve Him, when I can feast on real food, good food, God's heavenly food and be satisfied.

And the good part, I never have to leave God's banqueting table. He has it prepared with all of these great foods. I can eat until I'm full. And then come back for seconds later in the day.

Shirley

Studyin'2Show
Jul 6th 2008, 12:14 AM
Shirley, it grieves me to the heart that you or anyone else would ever be FORCED to keep sabbath. But no one forced me and I do NOT force my children. My family and I enjoy keeping His feasts and yes, I do feast continually on the spiritual meat that He has set on our banquet table. As I have said once before in this thread, it is NOT an either or proposition. Be assured, I have read His Living Word through and through from cover to cover numerous times and rejoice in the bread of life that He supplies me daily. We have all come to faith from different places so I would never presume to judge the journey of another believer. But with the same respect it surprises me that so many believe they can judge my journey. I have asked you several times now with no answer, am I free in Christ to do everything else lawful EXCEPT celebrate His feasts and sabbath? Is that you position or not? :hmm:

Naphal
Jul 6th 2008, 01:04 AM
Okay, Naphal, let's break down that sentence, shall we? Right smack in the middle of that 'sentence' it says "therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days". That is a clear reference to the manna God gave them in the wilderness. Let me ask you, did you go out yesterday and gather your double portion of manna?


It is referring to Manna but the word is a generic word for food or grain and God gives this to us all just not in the same exact way it was then. The command to not gather food on the Sabbath was still valid even though the manna was for a limited time. It was still law to not leave your habitation and to have enough food done the day before the Sabbath. Those things didn't change. Only the type of "bread" changed and even then it was still related to manna because they were told to save some much like yeast is kept over and over for generations.






I sure didn't and neither did any of the rabbis that have misinterpreted this passage for millennia. Is it such a shock for you that they missed the point on this as they did on so many other things including Messiah?


Just because they made errors doesn't mean they made errors on everything. Not gathering food on the Sabbath had always been God's law but Jesus had no issue with his disciples doing it because the law was changing and Jesus was showing how and why. This helped the transition from the old cov. law to the new cov. law which was more about the spirit than the letter.





So, no, we do NOT agree that there is some travel restriction. That statement was talking to those who were receiving physical manna daily in the wilderness. Hopefully that clarifies my position for you.

Yep. I disagree.

Naphal
Jul 6th 2008, 01:11 AM
The sabbath is spoken of before Sinai, so it was actually pre-covenant.

It wasn't pre-covenant. It was the first law of the covenant mentioned before Sinai but they clearly didn't understand it so it is written it was made known to them at Sinai.

Nehemiah 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
Nehemiah 9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

Studyin'2Show
Jul 6th 2008, 02:13 AM
Naphal, the command specifically says to gather twice as much MANNA on the 6th day. No one, not one person, has done that since the wilderness. That command was for a specific time and a specific place. It's much simpler than you're attempting to make it. As for the sabbath being pre-Sinai covenant, the 7th day was sanctified from the very first week of creation. But you know what, even if it wasn't, I read the word of God which clearly says that the sabbath and the feasts are HIS FOREVER! So, the point is moot. As a believer that has embraced His feasts I can attest that when celebrated in Messiah they are not a burden and are truly a joy. And hey, my kids and my hubby love them so yes, I am a Christian that has His law (torah) written in my heart as prophesied in Jeremiah, and I'm loving every moment in Him! :pp

God Bless!

Naphal
Jul 6th 2008, 03:10 AM
Naphal, the command specifically says to gather twice as much MANNA on the 6th day.


Exodus 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

3899
03899 lechem {lekh'-em}

from 03898; TWOT - 1105a; n m

AV - bread 237, food 21, meat 18, shewbread + 06440 5, loaves 5,
shewbread + 04635 3, shewbread 2, victuals 2, eat 1, feast 1,
fruit 1, provision 1; 297

1) bread, food, grain
1a) bread
1a1) bread
1a2) bread-corn
1b) food (in general)


I thank God for giving me food when I eat it. Not that God literally handed it to me but everything comes from God so I am thankful. I don't think any of this command was limited to only the wilderness. The food you gather double of simply would be different but the law is not changed. I have never read where God said it was ok to leave your habitation on the Sabbath, or that it was ok to gather food on it.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 6th 2008, 01:11 PM
Naphal, I think anyone who is interesting in understanding truly what was being said and who was being spoken to without relying on the traditions of men, can figure it out. It's pretty simplistic. ;) Beyond that I think agreeing to disagree is fine. :D

God Bless!