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manichunter
Jun 26th 2008, 07:07 AM
Is God Torah?

Joh 1:1 -In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus is the Word.

Joh 5:39 - "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
Scripture are all about Jesus.

Mt 4:4 -But He answered and said, "It is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."'
Scripture come from out of the heart of God since from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Lu 4:32 -And they were astonished at His teaching, for His word was with authority.
Of course His word had authority, He is the Word.

Joh 15:7 - "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Jesus abides in us by Spirit an Torah in our heart as illustrated below.

Jer 31:33 -But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Eze 36:27 - I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Joh 14:26 -"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Jesus sent the Spirit to teach us His Word, not a new Word, but things God has already spoken.

2Ti 3:16 - All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
What Jesus put in it us is for our instruction, but it has to be set free from the bondage of carnality through mortification and sanctification. All Scripture is God breathe.

Ga 3:22 - But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
All of the First Covenant Scripture was given to mankind for instruction and convinced man as a transgressor.

A few words to consider-
Greek- "Word and Scripture"
Rhema (Word)- that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
Logos (word) - a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea, doctrine, teaching
Graphe (Scripture)- the Scripture, used to denote either the book itself, or its contents
Gramma (Scripture)- letter, of sacred learning
Nomos (law)- anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

Hebrew- "Word and Scripture"
imrah (word)- word of God, the Torah
amar (word)- to say, speak, utter
Kathab (Scripture)- a writing, document, edict
Towrah (law, commandment)- law, direction, instruction
Mitsvah (Commandment, ordinance)- commandment
Dabar (Commandment/Word)- speech, word, speaking, thing

Most of these words share common meanings between them. The original word for Law in Greek does not mean all the things the word for Law in the Hebrew means. Torah adds the meaning of discipleship like a master or father would hand down to a pupil or son by means of instructions for conduct or directions our life should follow.

What I am trying to say is that Jesus is the Word of God. Hence everything that He has spoken came from the heart of God. All Scripture is God breathed. Hence is the Torah God and God the Torah, as Jesus is the Word and the Word is Jesus?

2Witnesses
Jun 26th 2008, 08:10 AM
Is God Torah?

Joh 1:1 -In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus is the Word.

Joh 5:39 - "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
Scripture are all about Jesus.

Mt 4:4 -But He answered and said, "It is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."'
Scripture come from out of the heart of God since from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Lu 4:32 -And they were astonished at His teaching, for His word was with authority.
Of course His word had authority, He is the Word.

Joh 15:7 - "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Jesus abides in us by Spirit an Torah in our heart as illustrated below.

Jer 31:33 -But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Eze 36:27 - I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Joh 14:26 -"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Jesus sent the Spirit to teach us His Word, not a new Word, but things God has already spoken.

2Ti 3:16 - All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
What Jesus put in it us is for our instruction, but it has to be set free from the bondage of carnality through mortification and sanctification. All Scripture is God breathe.

Ga 3:22 - But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
All of the First Covenant Scripture was given to mankind for instruction and convinced man as a transgressor.

A few words to consider-
Greek- "Word and Scripture"
Rhema (Word)- that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
Logos (word) - a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea, doctrine, teaching
Graphe (Scripture)- the Scripture, used to denote either the book itself, or its contents
Gramma (Scripture)- letter, of sacred learning
Nomos (law)- anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

Hebrew- "Word and Scripture"
imrah (word)- word of God, the Torah
amar (word)- to say, speak, utter
Kathab (Scripture)- a writing, document, edict
Towrah (law, commandment)- law, direction, instruction
Mitsvah (Commandment, ordinance)- commandment
Dabar (Commandment/Word)- speech, word, speaking, thing

Most of these words share common meanings between them. The original word for Law in Greek does not mean all the things the word for Law in the Hebrew means. Torah adds the meaning of discipleship like a master or father would hand down to a pupil or son by means of instructions for conduct or directions our life should follow.

What I am trying to say is that Jesus is the Word of God. Hence everything that He has spoken came from the heart of God. All Scripture is God breathed. Hence is the Torah God and God the Torah, as Jesus is the Word and the Word is Jesus?

Hi,

'Torah' means, instruction, law, ect. But as far as Torah being the Law of Moses, Jesus is NOT Torah. But Torah pointed to Him.

You are not under Torah, that written on stone tablets. Rather, you are under the Living Word.

2Witnesses

manichunter
Jun 26th 2008, 04:32 PM
Hi,

'Torah' means, instruction, law, ect. But as far as Torah being the Law of Moses, Jesus is NOT Torah. But Torah pointed to Him.

You are not under Torah, that written on stone tablets. Rather, you are under the Living Word.

2Witnesses

So what you are saying is that Torah is not a part of Scripture and the Word inspired and breathe by God. That Torah did not come from the heart of God. God got Torah from somewhere else, not of Himself. Jesus said all Scripture point to Him not just Torah, because He is all Scripture. How can you separate Torah from ALL Scripture. God spoke from His heart and things came into being. Some of it was written by His hand with the personal signature of God. LOL

I did not say I was under the Torah according to the letter as given by Moses. Yes, I am under the Living and Spiritual Torah. I cannot separate any part of the Scripture by itself and call it truth. I have to take it all or nothing (that is how we get cults). The difference is in our interpretation of what Torah was, is, and who it is. If you admit that God is Torah, then you would have to investigate a whole lot of things.

However, everything God spoke comes from the inside of who He is, it the same way with you. What you typed back in response is you. It came from your inner man, what he thinks, he believes, and he assumes in his own learned logic and emotional desires.

Mt 12:34 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+12:34&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Lu 6:45 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+6:45&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Ro 4:17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+4:17&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -(as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations" ) in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;
Ge 2:7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ge+2:7&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Joh 13:34 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+13:34&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.Here is God in action again speaking Torah into existence.

Ta-An
Jun 26th 2008, 04:45 PM
Just remember, the word :Word ... has more than one meaning.... and the different meanings does not necessarily all have the same meaning ;)

manichunter
Jun 26th 2008, 05:07 PM
Just remember, the word :Word ... has more than one meaning.... and the different meanings does not necessarily all have the same meaning ;)

Yes that is true, but I am just talking about one definition of Word. I provided the other definitions so people could to do their research. I am personalily talking about Jesus who is the word, hence the entirety and totality of all Scripture (The Word/Rhema) as we like to religiously say. Jesus is called the Word of God, hence everything spoken by God is about Jesus. It is a description of His person, character, office, and nature. We cannot selectively separate elements from the whole by personal choice and still have truth. This is where the stuggle is. How to reconcile the elements and aspects of God that I am not in agreement with?

Some examples christians say:
Some people say if God is love, then why is their so much violence?
Some people say if God is merciful, then why am I suffering so badly?
Some people say if God is Torah, then why is there so much lawlessness?
Some people say if God is good, then why did my brother have to die?

Lu 21:33 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+21:33&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Nothing of Jesus' word is passing away.

Joh 12:49 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+12:49&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
Everything spoken by Jesus came from the Father.

Mt 10:20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+10:20&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
The same should go for us.

Naphal
Jun 26th 2008, 05:47 PM
The New Testament clearly tells us that the curse of the Law was nailed to the execution stake of Messiah. We need to be careful and understand that it was not the Law of Torah that was nailed, but rather the curse of the Law.

It does not say that.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Nothing about the curse of the law is mentioned. It says, "the handwriting of ordinances" was taken out of the way and nailed to the cross. What part of the law wasn't hand written? According to Thayer's, this Greek word means "the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment" which is speaking of the law, all of it.

manichunter
Jun 26th 2008, 05:51 PM
It does not say that.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Nothing about the curse of the law is mentioned. It says, "the handwriting of ordinances" was taken out of the way and nailed to the cross. What part of the law wasn't hand written? According to Thayer's, this Greek word means "the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment" which is speaking of the law, all of it.

What are you doing up so early this morning, I usually see you out at night.

By the way, is Jesus the Torah.

Just checking to see if you looked into it.

Get back with you later. You are very helpful to me. You cause me to study even harder. Gee thanks.......... LOL

See ya later.

Brother Mark
Jun 26th 2008, 05:53 PM
Is God Torah?

....

What I am trying to say is that Jesus is the Word of God. Hence everything that He has spoken came from the heart of God. All Scripture is God breathed. Hence is the Torah God and God the Torah, as Jesus is the Word and the Word is Jesus?

Jesus is not the word of God in the sense that the bible is God. It just means, as you stated, that from the abundance of God's heart, came the bible. When he spoke the bible into being, he was revealing himself to us. So, in that way, Jesus is the Word because Jesus is the heart of God. God revealed himself fully in Christ. However, the bible, unlike Jesus, does not contain all the fullness of God.

Having said that, we live by the Spirit of the Law now and no longer the letter.

Rom 7:6
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
NASB

We no longer live by the oldness of the letter for we have been released from that. Instead, we live by the newness of the Spirit of the law.

Naphal
Jun 26th 2008, 05:56 PM
What are you doing up so early this morning, I usually see you out at night.

By the way, is Jesus the Torah.

Just checking to see if you looked into it.

Get back with you later. You are very helpful to me. You cause me to study even harder. Gee thanks.......... LOL

See ya later.

I am usually more free for bible study and posting in the evenings but I find time when I can. I think it's more accurate to say Jesus is the Word rather than using the term "Torah". In some ways there is little difference between the terms but in others ways there are vast differences and it could cause confusion saying something that isn't explicitly spoken in the bible. Jesus isn't just the Word of God in the "torah" but all the bible so I prefer "Word" or "Word of God" which is inclusive of it all.

Brother Mark
Jun 26th 2008, 05:58 PM
By the way, is Jesus the Torah.

Actually, that's not accurate. Let's look at what Jesus said about the Torah as the Pharisees saw it.

John 5:39-40
39 "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.
NASB

The scriptures Jesus referred to here, is the OT. The Pharisees thought that the Torah could save them. Therefor, they searched the Torah, thinking that in it, they could have eternal life. But the Torah couldn't save them and never could. Only Jesus could do that. But the Torah is where God spoke his heart to mankind and in it, he spoke of Jesus. And in Jesus, salvation can be found. The Torah points to Jesus but is not Jesus.

manichunter
Jun 26th 2008, 06:03 PM
I am usually more free for bible study and posting in the evenings but I find time when I can. I think it's more accurate to say Jesus is the Word rather than using the term "Torah". In some ways there is little difference between the terms but in others ways there are vast differences and it could cause confusion saying something that isn't explicitly spoken in the bible. Jesus isn't just the Word of God in the "torah" but all the bible so I prefer "Word" or "Word of God" which is inclusive of it all.

So it isn't all or nothing concerning the Scripture. Are you implying that Jesus is not the totality and embodiment of everything Scripture from Gen 1 to Rev 22. Are you saying God killed parts of Himself and made it of no effect. What is a shadow? It reflects off of something that actualies exist. What does Torah reflect off of? Where does it come from if not from the speaking heart of God. Who cannot separate your own words from your heart. It is you manifesting yourself to others. Showing the world who you are in your beliefs, manner of conduct, and preceptions.

2Pe 1:21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:21&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

manichunter
Jun 26th 2008, 06:12 PM
Actually, that's not accurate. Let's look at what Jesus said about the Torah as the Pharisees saw it.

John 5:39-40
39 "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.
NASB

The scriptures Jesus referred to here, is the OT. The Pharisees thought that the Torah could save them. Therefor, they searched the Torah, thinking that in it, they could have eternal life. But the Torah couldn't save them and never could. Only Jesus could do that. But the Torah is where God spoke his heart to mankind and in it, he spoke of Jesus. And in Jesus, salvation can be found. The Torah points to Jesus but is not Jesus.


The Torah as you define it is in what you call the OT. I do not think the Torah can save anyone as I agree with you. I to believe that Jesus is the way, truth, and the life. However, we differ on how to view Scripture in its embodment as a whole. I actually believe that Paul meant all Scripture was inspired (God breathe) by God. Nothing can be subtracted to it or added to it as stated in the book of Revelations.

How can you say Torah is a shadow of things to come and not pay attention to what the shadow is reflected off of. How can you separate God's word into separate elements when God is His Word. Just like you are suppose to reflect your own word. Nah, I think you missed the message within the post. You have said that the Torah is not Scripture. I do not say that in a mean spirit by any means. It is just the conclusion I draw from your post. If Torah is indeed Scripture then its manner of treatment is the same as the whole body of Scripture, since it refers to a whole person.

Naphal
Jun 26th 2008, 06:18 PM
So it isn't all or nothing concerning the Scripture. Are you implying that Jesus is not the totality and embodiment of everything Scripture from Gen 1 to Rev 22. Are you saying God killed parts of Himself and made it of no effect. What is a shadow? It reflects off of something that actualies exist. What does Torah reflect off of? Where does it come from if not from the speaking heart of God. Who cannot separate your own words from your heart. It is you manifesting yourself to others. Showing the world who you are in your beliefs, manner of conduct, and preceptions.

2Pe 1:21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+1:21&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Torah in the Hebrew appears 212 times and everytime it is rendered "law". To say "Jesus is Law" and law referring to the OT law would make that a false statement. Jesus freed us from the curse of the Torah/law:

the torah/law entangles with the yoke of bondage- Galatians 5:1

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the torah/law- Galatians 3:13

the strength of sin is the torah/law- 1 Corinthians 15:56

the torah/law worketh wrath- Romans 4:15

we are delivered from the torah/law- Romans 7:6

we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter of the torah/law- Romans 7:6

markedward
Jun 26th 2008, 06:33 PM
The Torah is not the entire OT, just the first five books.

The Bible contains words from God, but they aren't The Word, Jesus.


You have said that the Torah is not Scripture. I do not say that in a mean spirit by any means. It is just the conclusion I draw from your postI think you are reading way to much into what he's saying. He never said that the Torah isn't Scripture... He said that the Pharisees thought that the words of the Old Testament could bring salvation, but instead the words of the OT (including the Torah) pointed to The Word, who is Jesus, for salvation.

He's trying to tell you that The Word (Jesus) is not the same thing as the word (the Bible).

Brother Mark
Jun 26th 2008, 06:34 PM
The Torah as you define it is in what you call the OT. I do not think the Torah can save anyone as I agree with you. I to believe that Jesus is the way, truth, and the life. However, we differ on how to view Scripture in its embodment as a whole. I actually believe that Paul meant all Scripture was inspired (God breathe) by God. Nothing can be subtracted to it or added to it as stated in the book of Revelations.

No. I define the Torah as the first 5 books. The scriptures include the Torah. It was a big focus of the Pharisees. But Jesus is not the bible.


How can you say Torah is a shadow of things to come and not pay attention to what the shadow is reflected off of. How can you separate God's word into separate elements when God is His Word. Just like you are suppose to reflect your own word. Nah, I think you missed the message within the post. You have said that the Torah is not Scripture. I do not say that in a mean spirit by any means. It is just the conclusion I draw from your post. If Torah is indeed Scripture then its manner of treatment is the same as the whole body of Scripture, since it refers to a whole person.

We can deal with that in a minute. But the point needs to be made, the Torah is not God. The bible is not God. It is some of God's recorded words. But God is much bigger than the Torah and the rest of the scriptures.

As for the shadows, take that up with the Hebrew writer and Paul. Both taught that we no longer live by the letter. No way around that one. We live by the Spirit of the law not the letter.

The Torah is scripture. We learn from it and learn about the Spirit of the Law. How are we to know how to sacrifice without reading the Torah? But what is sacrificed today is different than what was sacrificed then. We don't offer sin sacrifices nor would we if the temple still existed. Instead we offer our body a living sacrifice. We also offer a sacrifice of praise. We can also use the Torah to learn of our priestly duties to the heavenly tabernacle. But it is all in spirit and not in letter.

Before we continue further... the Torah is not God.

manichunter
Jun 26th 2008, 06:38 PM
Torah in the Hebrew appears 212 times and everytime it is rendered "law". To say "Jesus is Law" and law referring to the OT law would make that a false statement. Jesus freed us from the curse of the Torah/law:

the torah/law entangles with the yoke of bondage- Galatians 5:1

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the torah/law- Galatians 3:13

the strength of sin is the torah/law- 1 Corinthians 15:56

the torah/law worketh wrath- Romans 4:15

we are delivered from the torah/law- Romans 7:6

we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter of the torah/law- Romans 7:6


But your interpretation comes from the Greek definition of Torah. I will agree with you that means legal law no different than today's penal laws "Nomos". However, it does not include all the meaning conveyed in the Hebrew word for Torah. Torah in Hebrew is not limited to the simple meaning of just being a law. I provided a little word study to show this point that words and their translation as well as transliterations are essential. We run to far with the Greek not understanding that the Greek was a translation of what was spoken in either Aramaic or Hebrew. They were not passing down Greek thoughts but Hebrew thoughts. Hence when we define and use the Greek denotion of Law we actually miss the context of law. You do not understand what the serving in the newness of spirit is if you did not finish that Scripture in Romans 7:6 to include 7:12-20. He did not say it was as in past tense, but it is holy. Now the mystery should be how so and what does this mean to me......

In this passage of Scripture, Paul is talking about the Torah isolating and pointing out the old man, carnality, and sin nature that still exists in a believer today. Hence, Torah is still needed today to do as it did for Paul. It showed him his carnality and where sin was left unsanctified in him..........

got to run quickly, chat later my friend...... wife is home and she cannot stand me cheating on her with the vice called christian forums.......... LOL, see ya

Naphal
Jun 26th 2008, 06:51 PM
But your interpretation comes from the Greek definition of Torah.

Actually no. God wrote all the NT scriptures as well as the OT. The original language spoken or written is irrelevant here because the subject is the Torah/law of the OT. You say Jesus is Torah but he really was setting us free from Torah. That isn't to say Torah was evil, but that it's purpose was concluded. It was meant to have a limited time because God knew how sin would flourish using Torah.

keck553
Jun 26th 2008, 07:28 PM
And sin does not flourish now? Annuling Torah has somehow made sin disapper? Can you please show me where there is no sin, because I'd like to see it.

It does matter what language God used to inspire His Word. Greek thought is known to be different from Hebrew thought, and it's pretty easy to seperate the tares from the wheat.

Jesus removed the curse of disobedience, not the Torah. Scripture says so.

Jesus certainly did not annul the Torah and He certainly said so in scripture, unless you think heaven and earth have passed away??

We are free to obey God's commandment without condemnation. From God anyway. I suppose our obedience to God's commandments are subject to condemnation from humans in the form of legalism, but that is of no importance.

If Jesus was Torah observant, if Paul (Sha'ul) was Torah observent to his death, if ALL the Apostles continued after the ressurection of Jesus remained Torah observent, then I suppose it's profitable for me and others also.

Unless you think Paul, the other 11 were weak in faith?

In short, what you are saying is that the blood of Jesus set you free to disobey God's commandments. That's between you and God and I am not here to condemn you or tell you what to do. All I know is what God says.

manichunter
Jun 26th 2008, 07:30 PM
Actually no. God wrote all the NT scriptures as well as the OT. The original language spoken or written is irrelevant here because the subject is the Torah/law of the OT. You say Jesus is Torah but he really was setting us free from Torah. That isn't to say Torah was evil, but that it's purpose was concluded. It was meant to have a limited time because God knew how sin would flourish using Torah.


Oh no it does not. My interpretation does not come from me at all.

Genesis 40:8 “And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God?...”

2 Peter 1:20 “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”

I gave the Hebrew.

Brother Mark
Jun 26th 2008, 07:34 PM
And sin does not flourish now? Annuling Torah has somehow made sin disapper? Can you please show me where there is no sin, because I'd like to see it.

It does matter what language God used to inspire His Word. Greek thought is known to be different from Hebrew thought, and it's pretty easy to seperate the tares from the wheat.

Neither hebrew thought nor greek thought will bring one to Christ. But God used both languages for a purpose.


Jesus removed the curse of disobedience, not the Torah. Scripture says so.

He also changed the law. And the old covenant, the Law of Moses, the ordinances have faded away. We still live by the Spirit of the Law but not the letter.

Heb 7:12
12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
NASB

and

Heb 8:13-9:1

13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

9 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary.
NASB

The regulations of the old covenant and temple worship are gone. They have faded way with the earthly temple. Now we live in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter.

Naphal
Jun 26th 2008, 07:59 PM
And sin does not flourish now?

Not in the way it does using the law.




Annuling Torah has somehow made sin disapper? Can you please show me where there is no sin, because I'd like to see it.


I wouldn't put in in the words you have but you should read this:


Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.





It does matter what language God used to inspire His Word. Greek thought is known to be different from Hebrew thought, and it's pretty easy to seperate the tares from the wheat.

There isn't Hebrew and Greek thought. It's all God's thought no matter what language is used.




Jesus removed the curse of disobedience, not the Torah. Scripture says so.

I just showed that it was the torah/law that was nailed to the cross. We live now, or should live now, unto the NT law not the old law.




Jesus certainly did not annul the Torah and He certainly said so in scripture, unless you think heaven and earth have passed away??

It doesn't say that heaven and earth have to pass away before the law can be changed. The law has already been changed proving that the law has been fulfilled allowing for those changes.




We are free to obey God's commandment without condemnation.

lol....that was always the case. No, we are freed from the Sinai law itself.




From God anyway. I suppose our obedience to God's commandments are subject to condemnation from humans in the form of legalism, but that is of no importance.

Legalism comes from those that preach obediance to the OT law not from those that preach to be released from it's bounds.





If Jesus was Torah observant, if Paul (Sha'ul) was Torah observent to his death, if ALL the Apostles continued after the ressurection of Jesus remained Torah observent, then I suppose it's profitable for me and others also.


Only Jesus was and even then he taught the new way even while he lived. None of his disciples were "observant" as you imply.



In short, what you are saying is that the blood of Jesus set you free to disobey God's commandments. That's between you and God and I am not here to condemn you or tell you what to do. All I know is what God says.

You can't post such a obviously disdainful post and claim you aren't "condemning" anyone or trying to tell them how to live. You preach the law and insinuate those that aren't obedient to it are sinning against God but that is a fallacy and an untruth according to the entire new testament and everything that Christianity is founded upon.

markedward
Jun 26th 2008, 09:54 PM
Oh no it does not. My interpretation does not come from me at all.

Genesis 40:8 “And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God?...”

2 Peter 1:20 “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”

I gave the Hebrew.Strictly speaking, these are speaking about dreams and visions and prophecies, not about the definition of a Hebrew or Greek word.

manichunter
Jun 27th 2008, 03:51 AM
Strictly speaking, these are speaking about dreams and visions and prophecies, not about the definition of a Hebrew or Greek word.

What was Moses official office and the rest the books Callled the Prophets, right. Moses was a prophet as well as the other authors of OT Scripture. That is what a prophet does relay from God to man.

markedward
Jun 27th 2008, 04:15 AM
Okay... but that still has nothing to do with what you were arguing against.

You were using two verses about prophecy to debate a matter of etymology. That would be similar to someone pulling out a book about calculus to debate a matter about grammar.

threebigrocks
Jun 27th 2008, 04:20 AM
God is Torah? I think if we are going to make a statement as to who God is, we need to define that outside of one single statement and look at the broader question of who is God in order to see if saying God is Torah is true.

One of the many scriptures from Psalms:

Psalm 99


5Exalt the LORD our God
And worship at His footstool;
Holy is He.



God is Holy.

Deuteronomy 4



23"So watch yourselves, that you do not forget the covenant of the LORD your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image in the form of anything against which the LORD your God has commanded you.
24"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.



31"For the LORD your God is a compassionate God; He will not fail you nor destroy you nor forget the covenant with your fathers which He swore to them.

God is jealous. God is compassionate.

Deutronomy 10



17"For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome Godwho does not show partiality nor take a bribe. 18"He executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and shows His love for the alien by giving him food and clothing.



He is great. Mighty. Awesome. Love.

The Torah or any other part of scripture reveals the nature of God. Just as Christ said that he who has seen Him has seen the Father, scripture is revelation of who it is we place our faith and hope.

Can we pin one tag name on God who is eternal and unchanging and beyond our comprehension and say that is who He is?
God is the same, eternally.

Naphal
Jun 27th 2008, 05:21 AM
To say "God is Torah" is exactly the same as saying "God is law". Now, God creates laws and upholds and enforces them but to say God is law isn't accurate. God is love, scripture says that. Scripture doesn't say God is law. I think the Pharisees and many obedience-to-the-law type of groups do see God as law but I think that is a a clear and historic failing. When we see God as law then we will think too legalisticly and the words of the law will eventually cloud mercy and love and true justice.

If we say God is law, then law becomes god.

Scubadude
Jun 27th 2008, 05:22 AM
Jesus is Tao. :hmm:

threebigrocks
Jun 27th 2008, 03:20 PM
God is all in all. He is the same God who is holy, jealous, compassionate, great, mighty, awesome, love and more from before we had written Torah or any scripture and He will continue to be after this world is long gone.
Is what God is solely identified in the scripture which will pass away someday or is He eternal?

God is God. He is all in all.

keck553
Jun 27th 2008, 04:04 PM
Neither hebrew thought nor greek thought will bring one to Christ. But God used both languages for a purpose.

We're not talking about salvation, we're talking about receiving God's Word and His inspired Word in the correct context. Jews wrote almost all scripture, so it would be profitable to understand the culture, especially the portion of it that God created for His purposes.

He also changed the law. And the old covenant, the Law of Moses, the ordinances have faded away. We still live by the Spirit of the Law but not the letter.

If you live by the spirit of the law, wouldn't it be beneficial to embrace it? Or is ignoring God's instructions so twisted version of odedience?

Heb 7:12
12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
NASB

You've taken that out of context my friend. Yeshua is our high priest, God said so during the transfiguration. The authority of representing us to the Father has passed from the Levi (represented by Moses and Ellijah) to Yeshua. The allusion is that the blood sacrifice of animals will soon not be necessary for atonement, because Jesus Himself will sprinkle His blood on the Mercy Seat for the forgiveness (not just a covering) of all our sins, past and present. There WAS a CHANGE in the law, not a nullification of it. Blood is STILL atonement. If the law was annulled, then the blood of Christ would have no meaning.

God

and

Heb 8:13-9:1

13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

You Have no scripture to back that up. The highest authority is Jesus. His words say not one jot would be annuled from the law until heaven and earth pass away and ALL is accomplished. All has not been accomplished, and if you look up and then down, you'll see the earth and heavens are still here. If Paul contradicts the words of Jesus, then either he is a false teacher or Paul's words are made to fit someone's agenda. I don't think for one moment Paul was a false teacher. If Paul's words seem to contradict the word of God, then more study is in order. The covenant given through Moses was a "New Covenant" also. Did it nullify the covenant with Noah and Abraham? No, it merely added to them. Same as the New Covenant Could the true answer be that the Catholic Church replaced the God of Israel with their own religion? Certainly the murder of millions of Jews by Christian Rome doesn't speak to the teachings of their Jewish Messiah. They certainly added unscriptual customs to their religion. Easter bunny, Santa Claus, pagan holidays, pagan idols, etc.

9 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary.
NASB

The regulations of the old covenant and temple worship are gone. They have faded way with the earthly temple. Now we live in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter.

The Temple is within us, that doesn't nullify anything. It was still a blood sacrifice that bought us remission of sins. God passed the authority of the levitical process to Jesus, and it was demonstrated when God lifted Jesus above Moses and Eliija before Peter, James and John, and told them to listen to His Son, with whom he was well pleased. What's that got to do with morality and eating scavengers? If one wants to use the blood of Christ as thier excuse to ignore the teachings of God, that is their choice. It's between them and God. But what did GOD say?
Mat 5:18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud (י ) or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened.
Mat 5:19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Unless one thinks heaven and earth have passed away and everything God promised has been accomplished, I'll stick with what God says. He's the final authority.

keck553
Jun 27th 2008, 04:06 PM
God is all in all. He is the same God who is holy, jealous, compassionate, great, mighty, awesome, love and more from before we had written Torah or any scripture and He will continue to be after this world is long gone.
Is what God is solely identified in the scripture which will pass away someday or is He eternal?

God is God. He is all in all.+

God has chosen to manifest His character with His voice and through Jesus. That's the only dimension we get to see, well in life anyway.

Just imagine what's waiting for us?? Whatever our discussions and dissentions are here, God will explain all to us and dry our tears.

threebigrocks
Jun 27th 2008, 04:17 PM
+

God has chosen to manifest His character with His voice and through Jesus. That's the only dimension we get to see, well in life anyway.

Just imagine what's waiting for us?? Whatever our discussions and dissentions are here, God will explain all to us and dry our tears.

And there is none of His character revealed before He sent His Son? All of the scripture I shared above is from the OT. The scriptures were spoken of through Christ - the Word made flesh. God's character was quite evident prior to His Son walking this earth. For example, all of those characteristics I mentioned above can be seen in the Exodus of the Isralites and their wandering for 40 years.

God will dry our tears if we are in His presence to do so. Know the God of scripture through the Spirit, all other things aside and the dissention will be less. Focus on God.

John 17


22"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.


Powerful words there.

Brother Mark
Jun 27th 2008, 04:19 PM
We're not talking about salvation, we're talking about receiving God's Word and His inspired Word in the correct context. Jews wrote almost all scripture, so it would be profitable to understand the culture, especially the portion of it that God created for His purposes.

Oh, I agree with that to a certain extent. But let's keep in mind that same culture and kind of thinking blinded the vast majority of them from the truth of Christ. To the Jew, a stumbling block and to the Greek, foolishness. It is far more important to have the Holy Spirit guide us than it is to understand the culture. Having said that, there is a big benefit to understanding the culture it was written in so that we can have a fuller understanding of what was written. Knowing the idioms that were used and the culture will help us understand more. But also, we need to keep in mind that those who fully knew the culture, fully knew the idioms rejected Christ at a greater rate than those that didn't.


You've taken that out of context my friend. Yeshua is our high priest, God said so during the transfiguration. The authority of representing us to the Father has passed from the Levi (represented by Moses and Ellijah) to Yeshua. The allusion is that the blood sacrifice of animals will soon not be necessary for atonement, because Jesus Himself will sprinkle His blood on the Mercy Seat for the forgiveness (not just a covering) of all our sins, past and present. There WAS a CHANGE in the law, not a nullification of it. Blood is STILL atonement. If the law was annulled, then the blood of Christ would have no meaning.

It's more than that. Jesus was not of the tribe of Levi. He was of the tribe of Judah. In order to be a priest, the law had to be changed. Also, since we are now priest too, the law necessitated another change, that gentiles could be priest. In Christ, we can all be priest.

I am not saying the law was annulled with that scripture. Rather, I am saying it was changed.


You Have no scripture to back that up. The highest authority is Jesus. His words say not one jot would be annuled from the law until heaven and earth pass away and ALL is accomplished. All has not been accomplished, and if you look up and then down, you'll see the earth and heavens are still here. If Paul contradicts the words of Jesus, then either he is a false teacher or Paul's words are made to fit someone's agenda. I don't think for one moment Paul was a false teacher. If Paul's words seem to contradict the word of God, then more study is in order. The covenant given through Moses was a "New Covenant" also. Did it nullify the covenant with Noah and Abraham? No, it merely added to them. Same as the New Covenant Could the true answer be that the Catholic Church replaced the God of Israel with their own religion? Certainly the murder of millions of Jews by Christian Rome doesn't speak to the teachings of their Jewish Messiah. They certainly added unscriptual customs to their religion. Easter bunny, Santa Claus, pagan holidays, pagan idols, etc.

I gave the scripture to back it up. Hebrews 8 and 9. The old covenant passed away. It is gone. However, we still live by it in spirit. That was what Paul taught. Not in the oldness of letter. We are not children of Hagar, which represents mount Sinai. Rather, we are children of the promise, represented by mount Zion. So we worship in spirit.

For instance, we look at the food laws and see they were about holiness. What does it mean for us today? For they are still valid in Spirit if not letter. Not one time in the new testament is holiness combined with food. Jesus himself even said it's not what goes into the body that defiles it but rather what comes out. Jesus said "I have food that you know not of" and "man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from God". We eat spiritually that which God provides. It changes our heart. If we eat the thoughts of Satan, and it gets into our heart, then from our heart things flow out that will defile us. That is what the food laws are all about. If we eat spiritually the right things, we will be holy as He is holy.


The Temple is within us, that doesn't nullify anything. It was still a blood sacrifice that bought us remission of sins. That's a Levitical process. What's that got to do with morality and eating scavengers? If one wants to use the blood of Christ as thier excuse to ignore the teachings of God, that is their choice. It's between them and God. But what did GOD say?
Mat 5:18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud (י ) or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened.
Mat 5:19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Unless one thinks heaven and earth have passed away and everything God promised has been accomplished, I'll stick with what God says.

The Torah has still not passed away and we still have it today. The covenant described within the Torah has been changed though and a new covenant has been given. We no longer offer animal sacrifices as the Torah tells us to do. Instead we accept the change in the law that occurred and accept Jesus sacrifice as our offering for sin.

If we are to live in the oldness of the letter, then we too must continue to offer animal sacrifices for sin when the temple is rebuilt. Instead, we will live in the newness of Spirit, knowing that Jesus is our sacrifice.

keck553
Jun 27th 2008, 04:27 PM
And there is none of His character revealed before He sent His Son? All of the scripture I shared above is from the OT. The scriptures were spoken of through Christ - the Word made flesh. God's character was quite evident prior to His Son walking this earth. For example, all of those characteristics I mentioned above can be seen in the Exodus of the Isralites and their wandering for 40 years.

What? God's character has been expressed from the first 'bet' of Genesis. If we study out just that one letter, we'll find Messiah in it. If somehow my statement was misread, or I didn't convey my meaning, I apologize. By 'voice' I mean God spoke the creation and through His voice manifested Himself to us. Sorry if I mislead.

God will dry our tears if we are in His presence to do so. Know the God of scripture through the Spirit, all other things aside and the dissention will be less. Focus on God.

John 17


Powerful words there.

I hope that clears things up...

threebigrocks
Jun 27th 2008, 04:31 PM
I hope that clears things up...

I think a a bit of both there. I'm understanding now!

Just to note - God's character existed before Genesis 1:1. ;) The whole of scripture is simply a revelation of it.

Brother Mark
Jun 27th 2008, 04:32 PM
Hi Keck. When you respond to a quote, if you will use the [/quote] symbol at the end of the portion you wish to quote it will create an outline. Then the next portion of the quote you can start with "[quote]" end it with the [/quote... and it will appear as follows.


this is what a quoted section looks like

When you do that, and someone wants to respond, it doesn't make the stuff you write disappear from the post.

Not sure if I made that clear or not...

keck553
Jun 27th 2008, 04:52 PM
It's more than that. Jesus was not of the tribe of Levi. He was of the tribe of Judah. In order to be a priest, the law had to be changed. Also, since we are now priest too, the law necessitated another change, that gentiles could be priest. In Christ, we can all be priest.


Mariam was from Levi. Joseph was from the tribe of Judah. Both could claim David in thier lineage. Of course we are all priests, He dwells within us. Actually Jesus on the order Malkizadek (I have a suspicion they are the same person), King of Shalom and High Priest.

I am not saying the law was annulled with that scripture. Rather, I am saying it was changed.



I gave the scripture to back it up. Hebrews 8 and 9. The old covenant passed away. It is gone. However, we still live by it in spirit. That was what Paul taught. Not in the oldness of letter. We are not children of Hagar, which represents mount Sinai. Rather, we are children of the promise, represented by mount Zion. So we worship in spirit.


Paul was alluding to the Levitical sacrificial process, which was fading and did fade when the Romans sacked Jerusalem. It was no longer necessary, as we all know. This lines up with the teachings of Jesus.

For instance, we look at the food laws and see they were about holiness. What does it mean for us today? For they are still valid in Spirit if not letter. Not one time in the new testament is holiness combined with food. Jesus himself even said it's not what goes into the body that defiles it but rather what comes out. Jesus said "I have food that you know not of" and "man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from God". We eat spiritually that which God provides. It changes our heart. If we eat the thoughts of Satan, and it gets into our heart, then from our heart things flow out that will defile us. That is what the food laws are all about. If we eat spiritually the right things, we will be holy as He is holy.



Jesus was talking to Jews. Jews don't consider scavengers food anymore than they considered their sandles food. Jesus was referring to ritual cleanliness and it states so clearly. If Jesus was advocating breaking Torah commands, the sanhedron could have convicted Him and He wouldn't have legally been declared the unblemished lamb that He was.



The Torah has still not passed away and we still have it today. The covenant described within the Torah has been changed though and a new covenant has been given. We no longer offer animal sacrifices as the Torah tells us to do. Instead we accept the change in the law that occurred and accept Jesus sacrifice as our offering for sin.



I agree Jesus died as a sin offering for all of us, once and for all time. That has nothing to do with the Way God instructs us to live.

If we are to live in the oldness of the letter, then we too must continue to offer animal sacrifices for sin when the temple is rebuilt. Instead, we will live in the newness of Spirit, knowing that Jesus is our sacrifice.

That's not an accurate statement. Israel today can rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem and offer all the goats and sheep to their hearts content, but God no longer dwells behind a veil. The sacrifices will be in vain. What's that got to do with how God wants us to live?

keck553
Jun 27th 2008, 04:53 PM
Just to note - God's character existed before Genesis 1:1. ;) The whole of scripture is simply a revelation of it.

Most definatly !

Brother Mark
Jun 27th 2008, 04:56 PM
That's not an accurate statement. Israel today can rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem and offer all the goats and sheep to their hearts content, but God no longer dwells behind a veil. The sacrifices will be in vain. What's that got to do with how God wants us to live?

Of course the sacrifices will be in vain. That's the point. The letter of the law was changed. But not the spirit of the law. The food thing is a good example of how that also changed. Scripture says "Thus he declared all foods clean". Whether they considered it food or not, Jesus also gave Peter a vision of animals and said "what I have cleansed, call not unclean". Of course, that was in reference to gentiles but the food thing is still there.

If we are to live by the letter, then animal sacrifices are needed! But we no longer live by the letter of the law. Instead we understand that the whole Torah and prophets point to Jesus. All of it how we are to live. Not by letter, as the Pharisees did, but by the spirit.

The pharisees kept the letter of the law and it did them no good. Nor will it do us any good. Let us instead, keep the spirit of the Law and live both spiritually and physically.

keck553
Jun 27th 2008, 05:03 PM
I respectfully disagree. Jesus was teaching Jews. Jews didn't consider pork or any other scavenger food. I can understand how this can be confusing. Jesus was speaking to ritual hand washing, which was a HUMAN added regulation, not substances the Jews did not consider food. Jesus never taught to violate Torah, in fact He warned against it:

Mat 5:18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud (י ) or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened.
Mat 5:19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
-CJB

As far as the Pharasees go, and not all were like this by the way, they made the Torah into a religion, and through the centuries added a vast amount of regulations to it, in fact, put these human regulations above the Word of God as given through Moses. Jesus said so, so it's true.

I do live in the spirit of the law, both spiritually and physically. What makes my living physically in the spirit of the 'law' wrong? I'm not trying to work my way into God's Grace. I already have it. I follow His instructions because He saved me from death, Jesus freed me so I can obey without the yoke of curses, and I love Him. Are we faithful to our spouses out of fear, or to gain favor with them or are we faithful simply because we love our spouses? I trust My God and I trust He knows what's best and healthiest for me. He made me, so He should know. God wants us all to live a healthy life free from disease. Can't you see this is His expression of Love and not condemnation?

You can see Pharasee-like added regulations to this very day. Visit a Catholic church recently?

threebigrocks
Jun 27th 2008, 05:18 PM
I respectfully disagree. Jesus was teaching Jews. Jews didn't consider pork or any other scavenger food. I can understand how this can be confusing. Jesus was speaking to ritual hand washing, not substances the Jews did not consider food. Jesus never taught to violate Torah, in fact He warned against it:

Mat 5:18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud (י ) or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened.
Mat 5:19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
-CJB

As far as the Pharasees go, and not all were like this by the way, they made the Torah into a religion, and through the centuries added a vast amount of regulations to it, in fact, put these human regulations above the Word of God as given through Moses. Jesus said so, so it's true.


Romans 2



11For there is no partiality with God.
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.



The law only brought condemnation for those who followed it, for they were judged by it. The law is void of grace. Those Pharasees et al did hold so tightly to it that they didn't see past it to see Christ and the salvation He offered. But that isn't unlike many today - they hold true to what they hold dear in their hearts and are blinded by it.

This isn't soley a law vs. grace issue, it's the condition of man and the flesh.

Brother Mark
Jun 27th 2008, 05:29 PM
I respectfully disagree. Jesus was teaching Jews. Jews didn't consider pork or any other scavenger food. I can understand how this can be confusing. Jesus was speaking to ritual hand washing, which was a HUMAN added regulation, not substances the Jews did not consider food. Jesus never taught to violate Torah, in fact He warned against it:

Mat 5:18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud (י ) or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened.
Mat 5:19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
-CJB

I am aware of those scriptures. Now, let me ask, do we still offer animal sacrifices? No. Then a yud or stroke must have been changed or passed away. Agreed? Now, the spirit of the law did not change but the letter sure did. But no longer are we commanded to offer animal sacrifices. Our sacrifices are different now. IOW, I don't see that scripture as saying all the Torah is still to be obeyed by the letter. If that is what it means, then we still need to be offering sacrifices when the temple is rebuilt.


As far as the Pharasees go, and not all were like this by the way, they made the Torah into a religion, and through the centuries added a vast amount of regulations to it, in fact, put these human regulations above the Word of God as given through Moses. Jesus said so, so it's true.

I agree with this. But even Paul, after he was saved, said he was blameless according to the law. IOW, the law didn't save him or make him holy.


I do live in the spirit of the law, both spiritually and physically. What makes my living physically in the spirit of the 'law' wrong? I'm not trying to work my way into God's Grace. I already have it. I follow His instructions because He saved me from death, Jesus freed me so I can obey without the yoke of curses, and I love Him. Are we faithful to our spouses out of fear, or to gain favor with them or are we faithful simply because we love our spouses? I trust My God and I trust He knows what's best and healthiest for me. He made me, so He should know. God wants us all to live a healthy life free from disease. Can't you see this is His expression of Love and not condemnation?

If one wants to walk in law, that is up to him and the Lord. As the scriptures say he who values a day above others, does so unto the Lord and he who sees all days the same does so unto the Lord. We each live and die unto the Lord.

So it is one thing for one to choose to live a certain way. It is quite another to say that is the way God intends for all to live. IMO, one is no longer required to live by the letter of the OT.


You can see Pharasee-like added regulations to this very day. Visit a Catholic church recently?

Yes. I understand that Pharisees added to the law. But even in keeping the law of God, it did not save them or make them holy. That was Paul's point when he gave his testimony and said "according to the law, blameless..."

manichunter
Jun 28th 2008, 05:08 AM
Most definatly !


The word name in hebrew actually means character trait. Hence the names given by God to man reflect different aspects of His person. They are not personal names, but names that do as you say.

Ta-An
Jun 28th 2008, 05:50 PM
Just to note - God's character existed before Genesis 1:1. ;) The whole of scripture is simply a revelation of it. Just a something I once found.... The Word Elohim, that is translated as G_D in the Bible Gen.1:1, as we know it,,,,, according to pictograph actually transcribes as this :
Partially copied from ;: http://hubpages.com/hub/Names-of-God--Part-1
The Name of God = Elohim

http://bibleforums.org/cid:image001.jpg@01C8D93B.6B410420
"El" / God
The first name God gives himself is Elohim. Genesis 1:1 is most often translated, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," the Hebrew word translated "God" is Elohim. Elohim in the Ancient Hebrew

Elohim is spelled in Hebrew ALEPH, LAMED, HEY, YOD and MEM. ALEPH (the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet, and similar to our letter "A") in the ancient Hebrew pictographs is pictured as an ox head, and it signifies strength, or God - as in the Lord is my strength. LAMED (L) is pictured as a shepherd's staff, meaning to shepherd or lead. HEY (H) is pictured as a man with outstretched or open arms, meaning to behold or God's grace/provision. YOD (Y) is pictured as the arm from the fist to the elbow, meaning my hand or works. MEM (M) is pictured as waves of water, meaning waters or peoples/nations.

The Lord is My Shepherd In other words, the name Elohim is the LORD is my SHEPHERD by his GRACE he provides for MY needs (I SHALL NOT WANT), he takes me by MY HAND and LEADS me by still WATERS. Sounding familiar? That's right, Psalm 23. So, while the Lord is definitely our strength, I think He primarily wants to be our shepherd.
Approximately 400 years after Moses writes "In the beginning God (Elohim)...", David, appropriately enough a shepherd, writes perhaps the most memorable and most quoted Psalm, Psalm23: "The Lord is my shepherd..."

threebigrocks
Jun 28th 2008, 08:48 PM
Just a something I once found.... The Word Elohim, that is translated as G_D in the Bible Gen.1:1, as we know it,,,,, according to pictograph actually transcribes as this

I wonder when these things will quit surprising me. :rolleyes:

manichunter
Jun 30th 2008, 09:11 PM
I think a a bit of both there. I'm understanding now!

Just to note - God's character existed before Genesis 1:1. ;) The whole of scripture is simply a revelation of it.

Do you think God's character reflect Torah...........

threebigrocks
Jul 1st 2008, 02:43 AM
Do you think God's character reflect Torah...........

I'd say it is the mirror image of that. The creator is greater than His creation, correct?

Naphal
Jul 1st 2008, 03:05 AM
Do you think God's character reflect Torah...........

Are you trying to say that since God's character doesn't change then the Torah/Law can also not change?

If that's what you are getting to then I say no. God didn't make the Sinai law to remain forever, and never be changed. He promised it would change and it has changed.

manichunter
Jul 1st 2008, 04:07 AM
Are you trying to say that since God's character doesn't change then the Torah/Law can also not change?

If that's what you are getting to then I say no. God didn't make the Sinai law to remain forever, and never be changed. He promised it would change and it has changed.

Yes God does not change as said in Scripture. Torah has not changed either. However, our understanding of Torah should have changed. Here are some Scripture that reflect how our understanding should have changed. Here was Jesus expounding on Torah and bringing it into full light of its true intent. He is now bringing out of the shadows for people who are to live by the Holy Spirit. Yes, God asked mankind to try on Torah, but it did not fit man in the flesh. However, it does fit the spirit man who delights himself in the Torah of God, not in its application towards the flesh, but spirit.

Ro 7:22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:22&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. (Paul delighted in the Torah in his inward spirit man, no longer by carnality in which he could boast)

Ps 40:8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ps+40:8&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart." (This is what made David a man after God's own heart as our First Covenant example of what God was intending all along)

Ps 119:34 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ps+119:34&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart. (He gave us more than understanding, He gave us His Spirit and Torah to abide in our heart)

Heb 8:10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=heb+8:10&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Read Matt 5:21-26
Read Matt 5:27,28
Read Matt 5:31,32
Read Matt 5:43-48 and tell me what do you see. (If the Spirit opens this up to you, then you can see the Torah in a different light, that is one of a spiritual light, not carnal)

He gave these instructions right after His statements in Matt 5:13-20 for a reason. God is no longer concerned about our actions because they are reflections of our heart's intentions, motives, and attitudes. God elevated the revelation by asking more out of us not less. Those that still see fleshly torah miss the point and consume themselves with this or that concerning the actions of man. Those who practice fleshly torah miss the point. Those that disdain and are offended by fleshly torah miss the point. Those that understand the spiritual elevation and application see the point. It is no longer governing our actions. No man could fulfill the Torah without sinning is understood. No man could satisfy the righteous requirement of the Torah is understood. However, I am no longer a simple man of flesh and blood with a dead spirit. I have been made alive to a new reality that sin has no dominion over. It is the reality of a living spirit indwell by God. I have to a choice with each breathe I take to abide in this Spirit or carnality. To abide in spirit is be immune to the things that influence and plague the flesh. To abide in flesh/carnality is to make myself subject to the corruptions and judgments against the flesh.

When I hate God's Torah, I should ask why. Is my carnality doing what it is suppose to do, hate any law that contradicts its will including God's Torah. If I delight in the Torah of God, I should also ask why. Have I just discovered maturity in living, reality, and inspiration that no carnal person can experience.

This new spiritual reality of torah is the means to love through the Holy Spirit. It is meant to expose the very arrogant, prideful, unloving, and mean spirited attitudes and thoughts we often excuse ourselves of while corresponding with one another via christian forums. This were carnality may not necessarily act, but it still hides in thoughts and motives.

Hence, we are not at complete liberty to hate. Now hating someone is a sin, when it was not a sin in the old fleshly torah. Now entertaining the thought of adultery is sin, when it was not adultery in the old fleshly torah. This is when we do a good deed to be seen of man, but others may not ever know our motives but God. And so and so. This spiritual torah was written in our heart because it was meant for the heart. The heart is the very center of man, where the issues of life flow from.......

Let me know what you think. I did not write this all to Naphal, just the first paragraph. This is rest is meant for the post in general.

Naphal
Jul 1st 2008, 04:29 AM
Yes God does not change as said in Scripture. Torah has not changed either.


Oh, the law has changed or else Jesus could not have been our Messiah!


Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

manichunter
Jul 1st 2008, 04:40 AM
Oh, the law has changed or else Jesus could not have been our Messiah!


Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Its true identity and intent has come out of the shadows as stated in Matt 5 in all those lessons He gave. He is talking about fulfilling the Torah in those passages as in completing them. Adding the spiritual element is not true change as in replacement but a change in prospective and understanding on our part.

Naphal
Jul 1st 2008, 04:44 AM
Its true identity and intent has come out of the shadows as stated in Matt 5 in all those lessons He gave. He is talking about fulfilling the Torah in those passages as in completing them. Adding the spiritual element is not true change as in replacement but a change in prospective and understanding on our part.

Well, in context in the scripture I just posted the change was in the law itself not a change in us. Context is everything and without it we cannot understand any part of the bible :)

manichunter
Jul 1st 2008, 05:53 AM
Well, in context in the scripture I just posted the change was in the law itself not a change in us. Context is everything and without it we cannot understand any part of the bible :)

Okay context LOL. What type of priesthood does the old Mel represent in the context of this passage. I will study it all from the Greek context. What type of priesthood is reflected, one of flesh and blood or one of spirit.

Greek Word for change in the text is Metathesis and it means either change, removing, translation. Which one fits here, is up to you to seek the Holy Spirit about. I am going to go with translate. The priesthood was translated from one of flesh (Levi) to one of spirit (Christ), hence, the applicable Torah was translated from flesh to spirit as well. How could Christ be a eternal spiritual priest with no Torah is non-starter.


Hebrews 7: 1-3 1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated "king of righteousness," and then also king of Salem, meaning "king of peace," 3without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually. (He was the foreshadowed witness of Christ eternal and spiritual priesthood) Hence, why his lineage is not known and his days are not recorded because he meant to reflect Christ. He represent Christ's eternal office and role of intercession over all man.

Hebrews 7:11-17 11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
14For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17For He testifies:
"You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek."
(Levi were a fleshy priesthood that administered fleshly commandments and ordinances) Christ is a spiritual priest who administers spiritual commandments and ordinances as illustrated in Matt 5. Levi was a foreshadow as well of Christ's functions and intentions towards us as High Priest.

Hebrews 7:22-28 22by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. 23Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
(Christ who was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world revealed the spiritual realities of mankinds needs by bringing them out of shadows and into revelations that have become obtainable through His Spirit)

Hey did learn something new from the Holy Spirit in this study and response to your question. Everytime Jesus said "I say to you", He was establishing a command. He was establishing spiritual torah by elevating the revelation of torah and correcting man's errors.

Matt 5:31, 32 31 "Furthermore it has been said, "Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality F17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5&t=nkj&st=1&new=1&l=en#F) causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. (Here Christ sets the record straight concerning divorce) (This was a command that says bump what you heard, this is what I say to you as your God)

Mt 5:18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5:18&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.(Christ back this command up with a double gaurantee, He must have known that people would trash His Torah again as the Hebrews had done) Mt 5:20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5:20&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. (Well this was impossible, hence no man shall be justified by the Torah)

Mt 5:28 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5:28&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Here he elevates the commandment to a higher reality of motives and secret thoughts) (The physical torah never applied or addressed a person's motives and secret thoughts, just actions)

Mt 5:34 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5:34&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; (I am telling you to say yes or no, thats it)

Mt 5:44 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5:44&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, (Christ says that you are no longer excused for loving with the love of mankind, but now you have to love with the love of God which leaves no remove for hate) The first covenant never addressed hate as sin. However, those they have matured in love in the second covenant can go beyond the infant type of love of mankind to love even their enemies.

manichunter
Jul 1st 2008, 05:58 AM
Some other changes that took place as in metamorphis (A catepillar into a butterfly)

The torah change locations. It went from stone tablets and paper to the heart of the believers.

The location of the Holy Spirit changed. The Spirit went from being upon mankind to within the heart of the believer.

Naphal
Jul 1st 2008, 06:02 AM
Okay context LOL. What type of priesthood does the old Mel represent in the context of this passage. I will study it all from the Greek context. What type of priesthood is reflected, one of flesh and blood or one of spirit.

Do you concede that the law had to be changed and was changed, even if it was in this one way?


Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Do you believe there was a change of the law? I would appreciate a direct answer to this question.

manichunter
Jul 1st 2008, 01:04 PM
Do you concede that the law had to be changed and was changed, even if it was in this one way?


Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Do you believe there was a change of the law? I would appreciate a direct answer to this question.

I dare not concede anything. LOL! I am just playing Naphal.

On the real, it is not about right or wrong to me. If I am in error, then I am abiding in a lie and curse. No saint should with a spiritual sense of true love should want this for another.

Direct Answer-
Yes the law changed in the sense of a translation taking place from one viewed in a fleshy sense to that of spiritual. This what I have been saying all along that the Torah was not passed away or done away with, but transfigured into the same thing of a spiritual priesthood.

How could Christ be a high priest without a spiritual Torah. Only the devil would be interested in the saints being spiritually lawless.

Christ called us to a royal spiritual priesthood as well to give spiritual sacrifices. Not in the same sense of the esrthly sacrifices but spiritual sacrifices that were foreshadowed by the earthly sacrifices. This is why Paul said the following and he was being literal in his spiritual meaning:
Php 2:17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+2:17&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -as a drink offering on the sacrifice and service of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all.
So few no what He means out of ignorance of the fleshly Torah which was the shadow. Well you cannot put it own spiritual if it is not seen first from its shadow. However, we are all called to a be burnt offering, meal offering, and peace offering in the spiritual which is our reasonable service.

The problem is our carnality. A lot of saints have been taught a learned bias and hate against anything related to teaching and instituting anything related to the fleshly Torah. Hence, their is an automatic disdain and rejection in some saints against it that causes a lack of investigating the subject matter. We others teach that Torah is passed away or done away with, then they strip the saints of their means of making proper spiritual sacrifices.

However, what could be understood is that Jesus actually raised the standard of our expected conduct not lowered it. In Matt 5:17-19, the Greek for fulfilled is better translated (Pleroo-to complete and fill in).
Christ in the following passeges then explains and instructs people how He fulfilled the fleshly Torah by expecting more out of our conduct. He was establishing Spiritual principles of Torah on top of the fleshly Torah.

Matt 5: 21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not murder, F13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5&t=nkj&st=1&new=1&l=en#F) and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause F14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5&t=nkj&st=1&new=1&l=en#F) shall be in danger of the judgment. (Now we can murder in our heart by hate, when before there was no law against this) Now Christ established the true intent by Spiritual Torah bying keeping the old and building on it an elevated understanding.

Matt 5: 43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor F19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5&t=nkj&st=1&new=1&l=en#F) and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, F20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5&t=nkj&st=1&new=1&l=en#F) 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet your brethren F21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5&t=nkj&st=1&new=1&l=en#F) only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors F22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5&t=nkj&st=1&new=1&l=en#F) do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
(Now Christ fills in the fleshy Torah by establishing a new principle of divine love on top of carnal love. Under the old Torah one was allowed to hate his enemies, but that was a immature form of love. Christ now expects us to be as the Father in the manner of love. I can see Christ in these versus wanting to finish with, be ye holy as Your Father is Holy.)

He spends the next few chapters explaining spiritual torah in its new application built upon the fleshly torah. He makes the direct commands of, "I say to you."

threebigrocks
Jul 1st 2008, 04:28 PM
Are you trying to say that since God's character doesn't change then the Torah/Law can also not change?

If that's what you are getting to then I say no. God didn't make the Sinai law to remain forever, and never be changed. He promised it would change and it has changed.

Goodness! The Law hasn't changed, it remains the same for those who choose to place themselves under it. God's covenant changed for salvation, by renewal through Christ. The Law will not pass away until it's purpose is complete.

Indeed, the priesthood has changed and the change in the Law is that we are no longer under it but under grace and Christ. Christ did not come to abolish but to fufill the Law.

Brother Mark
Jul 1st 2008, 04:43 PM
Goodness! The Law hasn't changed, it remains the same for those who choose to place themselves under it. God's covenant changed for salvation, by renewal through Christ. The Law will not pass away until it's purpose is complete.

Indeed, the priesthood has changed and the change in the Law is that we are no longer under it but under grace and Christ. Christ did not come to abolish but to fufill the Law.

There's a difference in the law of Moses and the Law of God. The Law of God hasn't changed and won't change till heaven and earth pass away. The law of Moses has changed and as part of the covenant with Israel, faded away in letter. But we still learn a great deal from it in spirit.

The law changed not just because we are no longer under it, but the requirements to be a priest changed as well. One had to be from the tribe of Levi to be a priest in the old covenant. Not so in the new covenant because the law changed.

manichunter
Jul 1st 2008, 04:56 PM
Goodness! The Law hasn't changed, it remains the same for those who choose to place themselves under it. God's covenant changed for salvation, by renewal through Christ. The Law will not pass away until it's purpose is complete.

Indeed, the priesthood has changed and the change in the Law is that we are no longer under it but under grace and Christ. Christ did not come to abolish but to fufill the Law.

Question- Is not the Torah written on your heart kind sir......

We differ in our understanding of what Jesus meant by fulfilled. I use to agree with you, but now I understand by His immediate instructions following His words in Matt 5:17,18 that He came to complete the Torah by translating it from fleshy to spiritual so it could written in our hearts. He filled in the spiritual gaps of our understanding that could not be understood or excepted by carnal. The Greek word in that text can mean multiple things.
Pleroo (fulfill)- be full, complete, end, fill in, fulfil, mics
Kataluo (destroy)- to dissolve, disunite

Most people interpret it wrong. Which of the below is true according to the Greek translation.
1.I came not to dissolve but to complete. This cannot be seen as an abolishing torah but completing what mankind could not accomplish.

2.I came not to dissolve but to end. This is how most interpret this text but this is a contradiction.

3.I came not to dissolve but to fill in. This cannot be seen as an abolishing the torah but filling in gaps in our understanding

I believe 1 and 3 are correct giving the context of the chapter and teaching of Romans.

I look at Matt 5:17, 18 as the opening statement that leads into the following lessons and establishes the context. He is just teaching random lesson but He is teaching from the point that was established by His opening statement. He does this for a few chapters. Establishing something new upon something already established. He was establishing the spiritual truth of Torah.

He was not saying a man is justified by physically keeping the torah or required to keep Torah in the flesh. He was speaking a higher reality of conscience about the Torah. A Torah that you cannot deny has been written on your heart if you the Holy Spirit also abides in your heart as well.

Carnality does not understand why to love your enemy, what is wrong with adulterous thoughts, and what is the problem with hating my brother without cause. It takes spiritual torah written upon our heart to understand such things; and the inner witness and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

keck553
Jul 1st 2008, 05:05 PM
The law of Moses? Huh? Did not God give His Torah through Moses? Why did Jesus obey it completely, blamelessly, and without blemish?

Why did Jesus say a stroke or yud wouldn't pass away from the law of God given through Moses until ALL that must happen has happened?

Why did Jesus say whoever teachs against or disobeys the least of the commandments will be called the least in heaven?

Now, if you can disobey the least of the commandments and still wind up in heaven, obviously the commandments do not, nor ever existed for salvation. The Jews knew this too. Sinai was about relationship with God. Many people were redeemed before Jesus by faith (not works). Abraham comes to mind. David? Samson? And who knows how many individuals. Yes, Jesus covered them too, He is the only way to the Father. If you disagree, I would be more than happy to present a study of redemtion in the TeNaKh regarding it.

If anyone thinks following Torah is impossible, I'll need an explaination for this:

Luk 1:5 In the days of Herod, King of Y'hudah, there was a cohen named Z'kharyah who belonged to the Aviyah division. His wife was a descendant of Aharon, and her name was Elisheva.
Luk 1:6 Both of them were righteous before God, observing all the mitzvot and ordinances of Adonai blamelessly.

Certainly Zekerias wasn't 'saved' by his blameless Torah observance. It would behoove everyone to release this false teaching that somehow Torah observance brought salvation, ever. All redeemed in the TeNaKh were by relationship, faith, usually in the face of NOT following the commandments.

manichunter
Jul 1st 2008, 05:13 PM
The law of Moses? Huh? Are you saying Moses made it up? If so, why did Jesus obey it completely, blamelessly, and without blemish?

If so, why did Jesus say whomever teaches a stroke or yud wouldn't pass away from the law of God given through Moses until ALL that must happen has happened?

If so, why did Jesus say whoever disobeys the least of the commandments will be called the least in heaven?

No, if you can disobey the least of the commandments and still wind up in heaven, obviously the commandments do not, nor ever existed for salvation. The Jews knew this too. Sinai was about relationship with God. Many people were redeemed before Jesus by faith (not works). If you disagree, I would be more than happy to present a study regarding it.

If anyone thinks following Torah is impossible, I'll need an explaination for this:

Luk 1:5 In the days of Herod, King of Y'hudah, there was a cohen named Z'kharyah who belonged to the Aviyah division. His wife was a descendant of Aharon, and her name was Elisheva.
Luk 1:6 Both of them were righteous before God, observing all the mitzvot and ordinances of Adonai blamelessly.





Do you think we should observe the torah in spirit or flesh. Of course doing it in spirit will lead to some form of physical manifestation of practice but not in the same application of the fleshly torah. Adultery being one as taught by Jesus in Matt 5. It was not a matter of committing physical but mental adultery as well. Hence not only do I not allow myself to fornicate with another women, but I dare not entertain such thoughts in my head..........

RabbiKnife
Jul 1st 2008, 05:17 PM
Fulfilled = fulfilled = fulfilled

Hebrews is very clear that the Law is no more.

keck553
Jul 1st 2008, 05:20 PM
It's always been a heart issue. Men perverted it into a flesh issue.

manichunter
Jul 1st 2008, 05:22 PM
Fulfilled = fulfilled = fulfilled

Hebrews is very clear that the Law is no more.

How can that be true if it makes Jesus contradict Himself.
1.I came not to dissolve but to complete. This cannot be seen as an abolishing torah but completing what mankind could not accomplish.

2.I came not to dissolve but to end. This is how most interpret this text but this is a contradiction.

3.I came not to dissolve but to fill in. This cannot be seen as an abolishing the torah but filling in gaps in our understanding

4.I came not to dissolve but to make the law no more. This to is a contradiction.

Question- Is not the law of God written on your heart.

I believe we do properly understand how He fulfilled it........ How did Jesus fulfill it? Is He abolishing it, or has he abolished it. Is He completing it, or has he completed it. Is he filling it in, or has he filled it in. He has translated it from flesh to spirit.

keck553
Jul 1st 2008, 05:23 PM
Fulfilled = fulfilled = fulfilled

Hebrews is very clear that the Law is no more.

If it goes against what GOD says, either Paul is a liar or he's being misread. I know is what Jesus said in Matthew 5, and there is no spiritualizing or explaining it away. Jesus is God and His words are the final authority. If something goes against His words, it's either a lie or misread. There are no other options. I can't take the word of a Talmidim over the word of God without fully understanding the context and the meaning, then I assume in the fullness of understanding it would line up with the word of God. I do know 'Torah' does not translate to 'law'.

I'll write up a short essay that describes that 'fulfilled' doesn't mean 'annulled'. Stay tuned :)

manichunter
Jul 1st 2008, 05:26 PM
It's always been a heart issue. Men perverted it into a flesh issue.

Correct. That is what man is stuck with. Even if we try to do the Torah by the power and means of flesh now, we corrupt ourselves and ship wreck our faith. It cannot be done by carnal means. This part the some Torah haters are correct about. However, the spiritual application of torah Jesus was teaching about in Matt 5 through 8 has to be taught to believers. This is worshipping in Spirit and Truth.

keck553
Jul 1st 2008, 06:08 PM
The moment we fall into the trap of thinking 'old is bad' 'new is good' regarding Scripture, we risk diminishing the very authority of God in His Word., and set the stage for being led astray. The book of Hebrews is NOT about 'old is bad' 'new is good'.

The author of Hebrews had a sound knowledge of the Temple system in Jerusalem, and the readers it was meant for certainly had a knowledge of the Temple system, which is why it is assumed it was written for Jews. The context is extremely rabbinic, and there is much uses of Hillel and his rules in it. The Greek and style is somewhat different that Paul's other writings, but it's definately Pauline.

The purpose of the book of Hebrews has been long taught as a text to convince Messianic Jews that they should not return to 'Judaism'. This is completely anachronistic. Acts proves teh 'religion' of the frst followers of Christ was Judaism' and that they were a Temple sect, more closely aligned with the Pharasees (ACTS 5:34, 15:4, 23:6, 26:5), The purpose of the Book of Hebrews is alluded to in Chapter 2 verse 5 (speaking of the World to Come), and by the usage of the rabbinic method called v'chomer (light to heavy - or some think of it as 'which is the better thing'). Jesus used this rabbinic method many times, especially when challenged on Shabbat. The English versions, when compared to the Greek, all have some changed verb tenses, which makes the Book of Hebrews the most mistranslated book in the New Testament in regard to verb tenses.

For example Hebews 12:18-24, incorrect commentaries state:
- Two Mountains: One is Sinai, the other is Zion (in Heaven - that is heaven is better and has replaced Sinai).
- Two Messages - One is God's voice at Sinai, with fire and darkness, the other is from Jesus, the message of mediation (it is good that we are on this side of the cross, having escaped an angry God)
- Two emotions: One is the terror at Sinai, teh other is the shalom of having a heavenly regulation and residence (which would you prefer)

The above is false teaching. Period. And from this false teaching, we get:
Law = bad. Grace = good
Old = bad. new = good
Physical = bad. Spiritual = good
God of the OId Testament = scary. God of the New Testament = nice.

Hebrews 12:25-27 provides the context. The lesson to keep in mind when studying Hebrews is about comparison. It is about two domains, heaven and earth under One King, not two religions. It s about the UNITY of those domains, not Gnosticism.

Using Jesus' own method, v'chromer, one finds the correct view:

- Two mountains: Sinai and Zion. Sinai is a picture of Zion (remember what it was like at Sinai, now multiply that - that is Zion)
- One message. The Voice you hear is the same One that spoke at Sinai (if we trembled at Sinai, how much more we will tremble if we abandon our walk with Jesus when He returns)
- One emotion - Godly fear (to understand grace is to not disregard the fear of God, but rather grace is to be mobilized by fear / reverence of the Lord)

After all is not God the consuming fire??

Hebrews 2:1-6 doesn't replace Moses, it's another v'chomer (greater than)
Hebrews 8:4 speaks to the High Priesthood of Jesus, but takes extraordinary length to explain WHY he can be a Priest even though He is not from the tribe of Levi. Jesus doesn't replace Aaron - it is greater. v'chromer again.
Hebrews 9:13, and 10:4 doesn't allude to a replacement of offerings, but explains the two domains, seen and unseen. the earthly offereings clenses (present tense) the physical. the once-for-all heavenly offering of Jesus takes away sin.

In short, Hebrews brilliantly (when read in context) shows teh continuity of the message of redemption throughout all Scripture. Not a 'new way', but the only way - through Messiah Jesus. He is the promised Seed.

keck553
Jul 1st 2008, 06:09 PM
Correct. That is what man is stuck with. Even if we try to do the Torah by the power and means of flesh now, we corrupt ourselves and ship wreck our faith. It cannot be done by carnal means. This part the some Torah haters are correct about. However, the spiritual application of torah Jesus was teaching about in Matt 5 through 8 has to be taught to believers. This is worshipping in Spirit and Truth.

It's all about relationship. :) Just ask your wife. Do you wear a wedding ring on your real finger or on your spiritual finger only? LOL.

Relationship in marriage means you are set apart for your wife only, that you lovingly follow the sanctity and rules (Torah in hebrew) of marriage, not in spirit, but physically also; in other words you obey the fences around the relationship out of love, not as a yoke or a heavy burden. The burden of a proper marriage relationship is light, as it is with Yeshua, our bridegroom. God teaches us through many ways, but marriage is clearly sacred. In my experience marital relationships generally (but not always) are on par with the couple's relationship with God.

manichunter
Jul 1st 2008, 06:15 PM
It's all about relationship. :) Just ask your wife. Do you wear a wedding ring because it's a commandment? LOL.

Relationship means you don't lust after other women, in other words you obey the fences around the relationship our of love, not as a yoke. God teaches us through many ways, but marriage is clearly sacred. In my experience marital relationships generally (but not always) are on par with the couple's relationship with God.


You bet, I have used this analogy a few times myself,

I was trying to get clarity, thanks... VERY MUCH

Roger Out..........

Ta-An
Jul 1st 2008, 07:28 PM
Is G_d Torah ?

Jn 5:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

I think this scripture says it all: Messiah is declared in the Torah :D

Naphal
Jul 1st 2008, 09:51 PM
Why did Jesus say a stroke or yud wouldn't pass away from the law of God given through Moses until ALL that must happen has happened?

Relating to fulfillment of the law, Jesus did fulfill everything and at that time the law could change and did when it passed away at the cross and the new covenant and the new law took over.




If anyone thinks following Torah is impossible, I'll need an explaination for this:

Luk 1:5 In the days of Herod, King of Y'hudah, there was a cohen named Z'kharyah who belonged to the Aviyah division. His wife was a descendant of Aharon, and her name was Elisheva.
Luk 1:6 Both of them were righteous before God, observing all the mitzvot and ordinances of Adonai blamelessly.


That translation is impossible to read because it is not properly translated into English. This is a far better one to use:


Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.



This isn't claiming they lived sinlessly like Jesus did or that they kept the law perfectly all their lives.


Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

They werent the except to this. Only Jesus was.

Naphal
Jul 1st 2008, 09:57 PM
I'll write up a short essay that describes that 'fulfilled' doesn't mean 'annulled'. Stay tuned :)

After the law was fulfilled, it was annulled. It was made old, it decayed and it was ready to vanish away!

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Do you believe? I do.

manichunter
Jul 1st 2008, 10:50 PM
After the law was fulfilled, it was annulled. It was made old, it decayed and it was ready to vanish away!

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Do you believe? I do.

HEEEY,

What is going down.

Where have you been, we have been over this all morning. I was off today.

I thought we came to an agreement that the law was changed in the form of it being translated from fleshly to spiritual. We went back and grab some Greek and tried to fix some sentences such as:

I came not to destroy but to anul the torah
I came not to destroy but to end the torah
I came not to destroy but to abolish the torah
I came not to destroy but to make the torah of no effect
I came not to destroy but to do away with the torah
I came not to destroy but to cancel the torah

All the sentences establishes a contradiction and makes Jesus seem to being lying and confused. If am not destroying something then I cannot also anul it, end it, or cancel it out at the same time. I must be doing something else with it. I am telling you that we got the meaning of fulfill wrong in our translation handed down to us from other gentile apologies. Become your own apologies, don't believe me or guys like the apologist Justin Matyr. LOL

Naphal
Jul 2nd 2008, 12:03 AM
HEEEY,

What is going down.

Where have you been, we have been over this all morning. I was off today.

I thought we came to an agreement that the law was changed in the form of it being translated from fleshly to spiritual. We went back and grab some Greek and tried to fix some sentences such as:

I came not to destroy but to anul the torah
I came not to destroy but to end the torah
I came not to destroy but to abolish the torah
I came not to destroy but to make the torah of no effect
I came not to destroy but to do away with the torah
I came not to destroy but to cancel the torah

All the sentences establishes a contradiction and makes Jesus seem to being lying and confused. If am not destroying something then I cannot also anul it, end it, or cancel it out at the same time. I must be doing something else with it. I am telling you that we got the meaning of fulfill wrong in our translation handed down to us from other gentile apologies. Become your own apologies, don't believe me or guys like the apologist Justin Matyr. LOL

Jesus came not to destroy the law but fulfill it but once it was fulfilled, it did pass away and vanish in light of the new law.

davidandme
Jul 2nd 2008, 12:48 AM
Is God Torah?

Joh 1:1 -In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus is the Word.

Joh 5:39 - "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
Scripture are all about Jesus.

Mt 4:4 -But He answered and said, "It is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."'
Scripture come from out of the heart of God since from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Lu 4:32 -And they were astonished at His teaching, for His word was with authority.
Of course His word had authority, He is the Word.

Joh 15:7 - "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Jesus abides in us by Spirit an Torah in our heart as illustrated below.

Jer 31:33 -But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Eze 36:27 - I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Joh 14:26 -"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Jesus sent the Spirit to teach us His Word, not a new Word, but things God has already spoken.

2Ti 3:16 - All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
What Jesus put in it us is for our instruction, but it has to be set free from the bondage of carnality through mortification and sanctification. All Scripture is God breathe.

Ga 3:22 - But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
All of the First Covenant Scripture was given to mankind for instruction and convinced man as a transgressor.

A few words to consider-
Greek- "Word and Scripture"
Rhema (Word)- that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
Logos (word) - a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea, doctrine, teaching
Graphe (Scripture)- the Scripture, used to denote either the book itself, or its contents
Gramma (Scripture)- letter, of sacred learning
Nomos (law)- anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

Hebrew- "Word and Scripture"
imrah (word)- word of God, the Torah
amar (word)- to say, speak, utter
Kathab (Scripture)- a writing, document, edict
Towrah (law, commandment)- law, direction, instruction
Mitsvah (Commandment, ordinance)- commandment
Dabar (Commandment/Word)- speech, word, speaking, thing

Most of these words share common meanings between them. The original word for Law in Greek does not mean all the things the word for Law in the Hebrew means. Torah adds the meaning of discipleship like a master or father would hand down to a pupil or son by means of instructions for conduct or directions our life should follow.

What I am trying to say is that Jesus is the Word of God. Hence everything that He has spoken came from the heart of God. All Scripture is God breathed. Hence is the Torah God and God the Torah, as Jesus is the Word and the Word is Jesus?
It is interesting to know that John 1:1 is traslated a little different in Spanish. Why? I am not exacly sure. Here is in Spanish traslated in to English.
In the beginning was the Verve, and the Verve was with God, and the Verve was God. When I hear sermons in Spanish, the preaching about this verse is very diferent form their English counterparts. The explanation from Spanish preachers is that Jesus is the action on this earth and in the universe. Please don't make a whole doctrine out of one verse.

keck553
Jul 2nd 2008, 01:47 AM
Jesus came not to destroy the law but fulfill it but once it was fulfilled, it did pass away and vanish in light of the new law.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. All is NOT fulfilled. Heaven and earth have NOT passed away. This is the qualifier stated by Jesus Himself.

The promises God gave to Abraham are NOT finished.

And the last I checked our Bridegroom hasn't come in on a cloud and Jerusalem hasn't cried "Baruch habe HaShem Adonai".

And when that happens, our Messiah will sit us down together and we will be in agreement in Him.

Until then, I will keep studying and following, as I am sure you will.

shalom

Naphal
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:13 AM
I'm sorry, but I disagree. All is NOT fulfilled. Heaven and earth have NOT passed away. This is the qualifier stated by Jesus Himself.

Actually that's not what he says. Heaven and Earth could not pass away until the law was fulfilled, nor could even the smallest mark in the law be changed. But, massive changes to the law have been done in fact the law and the covenant have been replaced! Jesus could not have been our Messiah and died for our sins if he hadn't fulfilled the law and then changed the law. He mediated a new covenant with it's own law different than the one before.




The promises God gave to Abraham are NOT finished.

That's a different subject. What has expired is the Sinai covenant and law.

manichunter
Jul 2nd 2008, 04:06 AM
It is interesting to know that John 1:1 is traslated a little different in Spanish. Why? I am not exacly sure. Here is in Spanish traslated in to English.
In the beginning was the Verve, and the Verve was with God, and the Verve was God. When I hear sermons in Spanish, the preaching about this verse is very diferent form their English counterparts. The explanation from Spanish preachers is that Jesus is the action on this earth and in the universe. Please don't make a whole doctrine out of one verse.


Actually I used the Greek for the whole sentence. I think that trumps both Spanish and English. However, I think you are being contentious for the sake of being disagreable. Where have I offended you sir. I by no means if you look at post use one witness to establish a truth. I have no clue as to why you posted this message unless. I am not offended, just confused. So, you don't have to post a reply if did not mean anything from a mean spirit.

manichunter
Jul 2nd 2008, 04:37 AM
Actually that's not what he says. Heaven and Earth could not pass away until the law was fulfilled, nor could even the smallest mark in the law be changed. But, massive changes to the law have been done in fact the law and the covenant have been replaced! Jesus could not have been our Messiah and died for our sins if he hadn't fulfilled the law and then changed the law. He mediated a new covenant with it's own law different than the one before.





That's a different subject. What has expired is the Sinai covenant and law.

Naphal I wish you could catch the joy of the fall festivals about to take place. They tell of His second coming as found in the Prophets and Revelation (Thess and Peter). Christ died on Passover for a reason because He was sticking to his appointment. There is so much I hope to share with you one.

I am as free as you. I have not subtracted from the faith. I have add to it things that have made me even more free. Free from more carnality and flesh.

The problem is that you cannot unlearn what you have seen. You do yourself harm if you intend to never observe spiritual torah by your constant visiting of these specific threads. I to was once like you. However, when certain information was opened up to me, I was forced to make a decision.

The real root of the problem is this, what is our agenda. I speak for myself. I desire to share the spiritual revelations God has shown me to prepare His bride for His coming, to call the saints to the watch tower for near return, and offer the same to others who have a similiar commission. I understand not all are called to do the same work. Hence, I by no means fault or critic my brothers and sisters in how they serve our common Savior and Lord.

God has taught me these things for my calling and destiny. Therefore, not all will recognize what I say as God inspired revelation. That is okay.............. These are not my feast or Moses feast.

Naphal
Jul 2nd 2008, 04:47 AM
The problem is that you cannot unlearn what you have seen. You do yourself harm if you intend to never observe spiritual torah by your constant visiting of these specific threads. I to was once like you. However, when certain information was opened up to me, I was forced to make a decision.

I don't know why you think you know me so well, that I am harming myself by defending the Christian stance on the Sinai law. I take the same exact stance that Paul does and that the early church did and what the church says on it to this day. Why do you insist I don't "observe spiritual torah". It is my position that upholds the spiritual and denies the carnal, letter of the law. I don't know why you feel you have to say such personal and insulting things to and about me when I have never done that to you. You believe in what you believe, I believe in what I believe. We both share it and discuss it. Please stop making personal remarks and assumptions.

manichunter
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:12 AM
I don't know why you think you know me so well, that I am harming myself by defending the Christian stance on the Sinai law. I take the same exact stance that Paul does and that the early church did and what the church says on it to this day. Why do you insist I don't "observe spiritual torah". It is my position that upholds the spiritual and denies the carnal, letter of the law. I don't know why you feel you have to say such personal and insulting things to and about me when I have never done that to you. You believe in what you believe, I believe in what I believe. We both share it and discuss it. Please stop making personal remarks and assumptions.

I do not see how you can say I insulted you. My apology for making you even suspect me of such actions. I meant something totally different than you think. I gave the okay for you to be at liberty to do as you wish and continue to share what I believe come from sincere beliefs. What specifically offended you?

Maybe I should go into more detail. I do not claim to know you personaly, but I do know myself past and present. I believed as you did about twelve years ago and my knowledge has progressed to what you see now.

I hate the fact that I cannot see people face to face and express my earnest feelings of brotherhood. In your case sisterhood LOL.

Now to the fact of the matter. I was merely stating a fact that might not necessarily come true. However, I do know that the precentages sometimes win out. What I was trying to convey was that the more you encounter the information I or others post in reference to this material in this post, then it might get imprinted and planted in you as a seed. Or the reverse, I come back to my senses and revert. Hence I was stating the dangers to yourself if you did not want to risk your beliefs. I know I do not intend to stop sharing what I believe God has taught me and continues to prepare me for His near coming. I was just giving you a caution out of real love towards you. I was actually trying not to offend you, but ended up offending you (go figure).

As a seminary teacher, this is what I see and how I teach. Words and means of conveying a message sometimes have a way of sticking, just to come back later when agitated. I tell my students up from that this is going to happen.

So, I say again, be at peace and liberty. Celebrate Jesus as He has led you to celebrate Him. Be encouraged to defend the faith according to your beliefs. This should have no impact on our fellowship. The truth is I was commanded to fellowship with you for a reason still unknown to me. I have a lot to learn dear sister. Take care and again I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I will have to be more careful........

Naphal
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:36 AM
I do not see how you can say I insulted you. My apology for making you even suspect me of such actions. I meant something totally different than you think. I gave the okay for you to be at liberty to do as you wish and continue to share what I believe come from sincere beliefs. What specifically offended you?

I quoted the offensive part but all of the post had this undercurrent of "you're wrong and you don't even realize it" type of thing. I knew that you weren't intentionally being mean but you were. All I can do is recommend that you read your words before you actually post them and try to put yourself in the other persons shoes and feel what it might be like to be spoken to in that manner.

The problem is that you cannot unlearn what you have seen. You do yourself harm if you intend to never observe spiritual torah by your constant visiting of these specific threads. I to was once like you. However, when certain information was opened up to me, I was forced to make a decision.



I believed as you did about twelve years ago and my knowledge has progressed to what you see now.

No offense but I pray that I do not find myself believing as you do in 12 years time. I am positive that such a position is simply in error but I respect your right to choose to believe how you wish as much as I believe I should disagree with it.



I hate the fact that I cannot see people face to face and express my earnest feelings of brotherhood. In your case sisterhood LOL.


This should have no impact on our fellowship. The truth is I was commanded to fellowship with you for a reason still unknown to me. I have a lot to learn dear sister.

I am not a female.

If you truly wish and believe we should have a friendship then I urge you to speak to me as a friend and dare I say an equal, not a student of yours that you are talking down to, speaking of my position as if it is a juvenile error that corrects itself in time and maturity. You may disagree, but I assure you my position on matters of the law, covenant, old testament and Sabbath are not recent, nor unstudied, nor un-prayed upon. I am well versed not only in my position but in yours because I believe in education in order to truly understand something.




Take care and again I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I will have to be more careful........

Apology accepted.

manichunter
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:46 AM
I quoted the offensive part but all of the post had this undercurrent of "you're wrong and you don't even realize it" type of thing. I knew that you weren't intentionally being mean but you were. All I can do is recommend that you read your words before you actually post them and try to put yourself in the other persons shoes and feel what it might be like to be spoken to in that manner.

The problem is that you cannot unlearn what you have seen. You do yourself harm if you intend to never observe spiritual torah by your constant visiting of these specific threads. I to was once like you. However, when certain information was opened up to me, I was forced to make a decision.




No offense but I pray that I do not find myself believing as you do in 12 years time. I am positive that such a position is simply in error but I respect your right to choose to believe how you wish as much as I believe I should disagree with it.






I am not a female.

If you truly wish and believe we should have a friendship then I urge you to speak to me as a friend and dare I say an equal, not a student of yours that you are talking down to, speaking of my position as if it is a juvenile error that corrects itself in time and maturity. You may disagree, but I assure you my position on matters of the law, covenant, old testament and Sabbath are not recent, nor unstudied, nor un-prayed upon. I am well versed not only in my position but in yours because I believe in education in order to truly understand something.





Apology accepted.

Got it............. I simply was not careful with my wording. I spoke from the heart. I did not mean to insult you, your charcter, education, and spirituality. If my assumptions lead you to think as such, because I know I did not say all that stuff, then I did exercise wisdom. I am shamed for causing you true harm and reprotation before other brothers.

I am not your teacher or anyone else's teaching on this site. I am actually below you in regards to position and function. I will endeavor to do as I say.

Naphal
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:49 AM
Got it............. I simply was not careful with my wording. I spoke from the heart. I did not mean to insult you, your charcter, education, and spirituality. If my assumptions lead you to think as such, because I know I did not say all that stuff, then I did exercise wisdom. I am shamed for causing you true harm and reprotation before other brothers.

I am not your teacher or anyone else's teaching on this site. I am actually below you in regards to position and function. I will endeavor to do as I say.

No problem. Lets get back in the Word and continue our discussion :)

keck553
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:33 PM
Actually that's not what he says. Heaven and Earth could not pass away until the law was fulfilled, nor could even the smallest mark in the law be changed.



Mat 5:17 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete.
Mat 5:18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud (י ) or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened.

I can't seem to find the "until the law was fulfilled" phrase you added.


But, massive changes to the law have been done in fact the law and the covenant have been replaced! Jesus could not have been our Messiah and died for our sins if he hadn't fulfilled the law and then changed the law. He mediated a new covenant with it's own law different than the one before.

It's God's law, not man's. God does not change. No changes were made at all. Jesus is our Passover Lamb. How did that 'change the law'? The law's still the same - blood sacrifice for atonement of sin, except His sacrifice was once and for all becaue of Who He is. His authority is greater than the Levi because He is God, King and High Priest, confirmed by the Father with Moses and Eliija standing right there. No change at all - just a greater work. This rabbinical argument iof 'how much better' was used by Jesus almost exclusively. and extensively by Paul in the book of Hebrews. In fact, if you study Hebrews in the light of Paul's culture, thought pattern, and his patterning Hebrews after the rules of Hillel, you'll understand it as Paul meant it to be, that is 'how much greater than' instead of the Greek replacement theology which Paul never used.



That's a different subject. What has expired is the Sinai covenant and law.

Please provide a biblical reference to back up that statement. Thanks

God bless and shalom

Naphal
Jul 3rd 2008, 01:33 AM
Mat 5:17 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete.
Mat 5:18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud (י ) or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened.

I can't seem to find the "until the law was fulfilled" phrase you added.


I didn't add it. That is a fact derived from other scriptures.

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Here a part of the law had to change which means a jot and tittle (and more) was changed. That clearly puts the other scripture in better context. The law was not to remain unchanged until heaven and earth pass away because here we are told the law changed and this was written close to 2,000 years ago. Heaven and earth remain but the law was changed.

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

And here we also see that Jesus not only changed part of the law but abolished it. What aspect of the law is irrelevant here as I only need to prove one jot or tittle changed or was removed to prove my claim and disprove yours.




No changes were made at all.


Scripture says otherwise.




Please provide a biblical reference to back up that statement. Thanks


Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

The new covenant was a better one and established on better promises.


Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


The first covenant had faults. If it would have had no faults then a second one would never have been created.


Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

A new covenant not according to the original.


Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The concept of the old covenant being added to and made better is simply incorrect. It was faulty and "made old" by God to the effect that it has "decayed" and in Paul's time it was "ready to vanish away" which by today it has. Amen!


Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Hebrews 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Hebrews 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Hebrews 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me) to do thy will, O God.
Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.