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View Full Version : The danger in anti-war and anti-death penalty stances



Brother Mark
Jun 26th 2008, 04:39 PM
Let's look at the history of murder and violence. Then from there, we can see how God chose to handle it. We all know that Cain was the first man to murder. Look at how God handled his punishment.

Gen 4:9-15

9 Then the Lord said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" And he said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?" 10 And He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground. 11 And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. 12 When you cultivate the ground, it shall no longer yield its strength to you; you shall be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth." 13 And Cain said to the Lord, "My punishment is too great to bear! 14 "Behold, Thou hast driven me this day from the face of the ground; and from Thy face I shall be hidden, and I shall be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth, and it will come about that whoever finds me will kill me." 15 So the Lord said to him, "Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold." And the Lord appointed a sign for Cain, lest anyone finding him should slay him.
NASB

God would not let any man take vengeance upon Cain. No one could kill Cain for what he had done. (Note. At this time, we have no mention of government.)
Later, we see a second killing occur. Look at the man's reasoning.

Gen 4:23-24
23 And Lamech said to his wives,

"Adah and Zillah,
Listen to my voice,
You wives of Lamech,
Give heed to my speech,
For I have killed a man for wounding me;
And a boy for striking me;
24 If Cain is avenged sevenfold,
Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold."
NASB

Perhaps it was self defense with the man but certainly not the boy! We do know this, the world was becoming violent and men knew that God had protected Cain from being killed for his murder. As a result, folks were thinking they could get by with murder. They were wrong of course. But man is easily deceived about such things. Fast forward to the flood. Why did God send the flood?

Gen 6:5-7

5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 And the Lord said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."
NASB

Man only thought of evil continually. What kind of evil was man thinking?

Gen 6:11-12
11 Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.
NASB

The earthy had become exceedingly violent. Why? We see the clue given in the way Lamech's thinking went. I can kill without concern of being avenged. Of course, they didn't think about God's punishment on Cain and how severe it was. But little did they know what was coming next! God sent the flood and wiped them all out because they were so violent. Afterwards, he went into covenant with all of mankind. Never again would he destroy the world by flood. Afterwards God established the death penalty.

Gen 9:5-7
5 And surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man's brother I will require the life of man.
6 "Whoever sheds man's blood,
By man his blood shall be shed,
For in the image of God He made man.
7 "And as for you, be fruitful and multiply;
Populate the earth abundantly and multiply in it."
NASB

Why did God establish the death penalty? Because he was not going to flood the world again. He went into covenant with man. Knowing how violent man would become again, especially if given the new covenant he had made with man, and knowing that man would respond the same way as he did after man saw how God treated Cain, God instituted the death penalty. The purpose? To keep man's inherit sin nature in check through other men. The heart is desperately wicked. So God put forth the death penalty in order to control man's violent behavior.

We can trace the death penalty throughout the law of Moses. We are all familiar with that. But this predates the law of Moses. But now, lets fast forward to the NT.

Rom 13:1-6

13 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil. 5 Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.
NASB

Here we see again, the command to bear the sword (which is used for shedding blood and killing) is still given to the government (in the same way the Law of Moses was given to govern Israel). It is still meant to control evil men. We have now traced the death penalty from the time of Noah, through the Law of Moses, right into the new testament. It's purpose was always the same, to control evil men and to root them out.

However, there is an overriding purpose as well. The anti-christ will be extremely violent. Governments are used to keep him in check. I know the Holy Spirit does this as well. But we have already seen how God has commanded man to keep himself in check by killing those that murder. In the latter days, what can we expect? Jesus said things would be similar to the days of Noah.

Matt 24:37-39
37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 "For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, they were marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.
NASB

He said something similar in other gospels. We can read through Matthew 24 and see there will be martyrs. We also see the same thing in Revelations. It will be just like the days of Noah where folks are violent without any worries of the consequences. If Cain was avenged 7 times, then they would be avenged 77 times! Clearly the end times will be a violent time. Why? Because as we move forward, we will see more and more resistance to God and his ways. One of his ways is that when evil men murder, they are to be killed. If a man murders through starting a war, then he is to be killed. If a man murders one person, then he is to be killed. As mankind loses his taste for God's ways and loses his stomach for capital punishment and war, then the beast will begin to rise up and war will come though another people.

We will see resistance to the death penalty, resistance to using war to stop evil men from murdering. As this resistance increases, it will embolden those that are full of of violence. Then the world will begin working towards being like it was in the days of Noah when the world was filled with violence, because men refused to obey God and implement his way of dealing with evil men. These evil men will rise and become more and more powerful and they will martyr the believers. And believers, will rightfully turn the other cheek. Yet, they will cry out to God in heaven to take vengeance because mankind will no longer be carrying out his duty to be the sword of God to bring wrath upon the evil doer through government.

Rev 6:10
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
NASB

After this, and at the right time, God will descend and again destroy evil that man let thrive through refusing to follow the commands of God, including those commands on how to keep evil in check through the sword of government.

Friend of I AM
Jun 26th 2008, 07:21 PM
Let's look at the history of murder and violence. Then from there, we can see how God chose to handle it. We all know that Cain was the first man to murder. Look at how God handled his punishment.

Gen 4:9-15

9 Then the Lord said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" And he said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?" 10 And He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground. 11 And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. 12 When you cultivate the ground, it shall no longer yield its strength to you; you shall be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth." 13 And Cain said to the Lord, "My punishment is too great to bear! 14 "Behold, Thou hast driven me this day from the face of the ground; and from Thy face I shall be hidden, and I shall be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth, and it will come about that whoever finds me will kill me." 15 So the Lord said to him, "Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold." And the Lord appointed a sign for Cain, lest anyone finding him should slay him.
NASB

God would not let any man take vengeance upon Cain. No one could kill Cain for what he had done. (Note. At this time, we have no mention of government.)
Later, we see a second killing occur. Look at the man's reasoning.

Gen 4:23-24
23 And Lamech said to his wives,

"Adah and Zillah,
Listen to my voice,
You wives of Lamech,
Give heed to my speech,
For I have killed a man for wounding me;
And a boy for striking me;
24 If Cain is avenged sevenfold,
Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold."
NASB

Perhaps it was self defense with the man but certainly not the boy! We do know this, the world was becoming violent and men knew that God had protected Cain from being killed for his murder. As a result, folks were thinking they could get by with murder. They were wrong of course. But man is easily deceived about such things. Fast forward to the flood. Why did God send the flood?

Gen 6:5-7

5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 And the Lord said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."
NASB

Man only thought of evil continually. What kind of evil was man thinking?

Gen 6:11-12
11 Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.
NASB

The earthy had become exceedingly violent. Why? We see the clue given in the way Lamech's thinking went. I can kill without concern of being avenged. Of course, they didn't think about God's punishment on Cain and how severe it was. But little did they know what was coming next! God sent the flood and wiped them all out because they were so violent. Afterwards, he went into covenant with all of mankind. Never again would he destroy the world by flood. Afterwards God established the death penalty.

Gen 9:5-7
5 And surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man's brother I will require the life of man.
6 "Whoever sheds man's blood,
By man his blood shall be shed,
For in the image of God He made man.
7 "And as for you, be fruitful and multiply;
Populate the earth abundantly and multiply in it."
NASB

Why did God establish the death penalty? Because he was not going to flood the world again. He went into covenant with man. Knowing how violent man would become again, especially if given the new covenant he had made with man, and knowing that man would respond the same way as he did after man saw how God treated Cain, God instituted the death penalty. The purpose? To keep man's inherit sin nature in check through other men. The heart is desperately wicked. So God put forth the death penalty in order to control man's violent behavior.

We can trace the death penalty throughout the law of Moses. We are all familiar with that. But this predates the law of Moses. But now, lets fast forward to the NT.

Rom 13:1-6

13 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil. 5 Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.
NASB

Here we see again, the command to bear the sword (which is used for shedding blood and killing) is still given to the government (in the same way the Law of Moses was given to govern Israel). It is still meant to control evil men. We have now traced the death penalty from the time of Noah, through the Law of Moses, right into the new testament. It's purpose was always the same, to control evil men and to root them out.

However, there is an overriding purpose as well. The anti-christ will be extremely violent. Governments are used to keep him in check. I know the Holy Spirit does this as well. But we have already seen how God has commanded man to keep himself in check by killing those that murder. In the latter days, what can we expect? Jesus said things would be similar to the days of Noah.

Matt 24:37-39
37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 "For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, they were marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.
NASB

He said something similar in other gospels. We can read through Matthew 24 and see there will be martyrs. We also see the same thing in Revelations. It will be just like the days of Noah where folks are violent without any worries of the consequences. If Cain was avenged 7 times, then they would be avenged 77 times! Clearly the end times will be a violent time. Why? Because as we move forward, we will see more and more resistance to God and his ways. One of his ways is that when evil men murder, they are to be killed. If a man murders through starting a war, then he is to be killed. If a man murders one person, then he is to be killed. As mankind loses his taste for God's ways and loses his stomach for capital punishment and war, then the beast will begin to rise up and war will come though another people.

We will see resistance to the death penalty, resistance to using war to stop evil men from murdering. As this resistance increases, it will embolden those that are full of of violence. Then the world will begin working towards being like it was in the days of Noah when the world was filled with violence, because men refused to obey God and implement his way of dealing with evil men. These evil men will rise and become more and more powerful and they will martyr the believers. And believers, will rightfully turn the other cheek. Yet, they will cry out to God in heaven to take vengeance because mankind will no longer be carrying out his duty to be the sword of God to bring wrath upon the evil doer through government.

Rev 6:10
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
NASB

After this, and at the right time, God will descend and again destroy evil that man let thrive through refusing to follow the commands of God, including those commands on how to keep evil in check through the sword of government.

Good points Mark. Though at the same time, remember that God really isn't giving everyone as they deserve at this juncture. If you think about it, no one at this point really deserves to go on living. God is not just a God of judgement, he is also a God of Mercy. Had it not been for God's mercy, we wouldn't be around at this point and all would have been wiped out during the flood.

Jesus was mostly pacifistic when he was here. He actually told his disciples not to get angry(or to not stay angry long if they did get angry), and to pray for their enemies as well as love them. I think if many of the world leaders and governments were to follow these instructions to this day, there'd be a lot fewer wars, and God's judgement upon mankind wouldn't be so severe. The reason as to why God has to cut man's lifetime short is so that he can show more mercy to individuals, as oppossed to having to figure out new ways to condemn others.

Death is an unfortunate result of sin. God uses it though to enact his judgement(and mercy) on mankind at times. When God allows death to take someone, it is always done for one of these two purposes(whether it be to have mercy on his people, or to enact judgement against them).

So anyway, war is something that should be avoided for the most part if possible. We should all ideally be peacekeepers when it comes to our interpersonal relationships with God and others.

Brother Mark
Jun 26th 2008, 07:26 PM
Good points Mark. Though at the same time, remember that God really isn't giving everyone as they deserve at this juncture. If you think about it, no one at this point really deserves to go on living. God is not just a God of judgement, he is also a God of Mercy. Had it not been for God's mercy, we wouldn't be around at this point and all would have been wiped out during the flood.

Of course. However, that doesn't speak to the death penalty.


Jesus was mostly pacifistic when he was here. He actually told his disciples not to get angry(or to not stay angry long if they did get angry), and to pray for their enemies as well as love them. I think if many of the world leaders and governments were to follow these instructions to this day, there'd be a lot fewer wars, and God's judgement upon mankind wouldn't be so severe. The reason as to why God has to cut man's lifetime short is so that he can show more mercy to individuals, as oppossed to having to figure out new ways to condemn others.

Yep. Strife only comes about because of pride.


So anyway, war is something that should be avoided for the most part if possible. We should all ideally be peacekeepers when it comes to our interpersonal relationships with God and others.

I agree. But war sometimes is necessary in order to make peace. Joshua would never have had peace had he refused to displace the Canaanites. God promised him that they would be a thorn in his side or he would be a thorn in their side. So war, while awful is not always avoidable. It can also bring peace. It took WW2 to bring peace to Europe. Otherwise, Hitler would have overrun and warred against the entire world.

The point of the OP is not that peace nor mercy are bad, but that the death penalty and war are necessary at times.

Friend of I AM
Jun 26th 2008, 07:35 PM
The point of the OP is not that peace nor mercy are bad, but that the death penalty and war are necessary at times.


Only when directed by God to do them, not by human anger or other emotions. I don't think they are things that should be taken into the hands of men without spiritual guidance. Men must use the Word of God as well as pray as to whether or not these are courses of actions that God wants them to take in situations that might involve taking a life. Ideally, our weapons of war should be Love and peace as partakers of Christ and war should be the very last option excercised, specifically - when directed by God to go to war.

Brother Mark
Jun 26th 2008, 07:42 PM
Only when directed by God to do them, not by human anger or other emotions. I don't think they are things that should be taken into the hands of men without spiritual guidance. Men must use the Word of God as well as pray as to whether or not these are courses of actions that God wants them to take in situations that might involve taking a life. Ideally, our weapons of war should be Love and peace as partakers of Christ and war should be the very last option excercised, specifically - when directed by God to go to war.

Actually FIA, God laid down clear principles of when it was to be done. When man murdered, man's blood was to be shed by man. So we don't have to wait for God to say "Kill this man". We already have the principle he laid out for us.

And of course, war is a last resort. But the OP stands as written. There is a time and a place for war. When evil men threaten those under the care of government, God has given that government the responsibility in Romans 13, to use the sword to deal with that evil man or group of men or nation.

Let us not confuse the role of government the role of the individual or of authority. I am to turn the other cheek. Government is not.

Friend of I AM
Jun 26th 2008, 07:51 PM
Actually FIA, God laid down clear principles of when it was to be done. When man murdered, man's blood was to be shed by man. So we don't have to wait for God to say "Kill this man". We already have the principle he laid out for us.

And of course, war is a last resort. But the OP stands as written. There is a time and a place for war. When evil men threaten those under the care of government, God has given that government the responsibility in Romans 13, to use the sword to deal with that evil man or group of men or nation.

Let us not confuse the role of government the role of the individual or of authority. I am to turn the other cheek. Government is not.

It varies from situation to situation. Ideally, if all Governing authorities shared the principles that we share as Christ, there would be no wars. Unfortunately they don't, so at times of course - war is necessary to defend these principles.

I just don't subscribe to the principle of "government is always right" when one states that it is okay to go to war. Many will take scriptures out of context, and think this means that a government can/should go to war with anyone that they see as "evil" or fits their definition of evil. Problem being is that the government doesn't define "evil" - God does. So again, war is something that should be done by a government when it is directed and inspired by the Holy Spirit and the word of God.

Countries that are not directed by the Holy Spirit when going to war may when some victories, but will lose the battles in the end. We see this result being the case with many nations God allows to go to war with his people. For example, Israel - when directed by God, always succeeded in battle when they went to war with people. They only failed when they disobeyed God, and made treaties with people God didn't direct them to make peace with(i.e. Egyptians) - or tried to fight with people God had ordained would eventually overcome and take over them(i.e. Babylonians)

Many countries like the one we are in now, start meaningless wars due to not being directed by the Holy Spirit, but being directed by the emotions/feelings/motives of man. So I agree with you in basic premise, war is something that is sometimes necessary, but only necessary when directed by God to do so. Thanks for the post though, it was insightful.

In Christ,

Stephen

Brother Mark
Jun 26th 2008, 07:57 PM
It varies from situation to situation. Ideally, if all Governing authorities shared the principles that we share as Christ, there would be no wars. Unfortunately they don't, so at times of course - war is necessary to defend these principles.

Correct.


I just don't subscribe to the principle of "government is always right" when one states that it is okay to go to war. Many will take scriptures out of context, and think this means that a government can/should go to war with anyone that they see as "evil" or fits their definition of evil. Problem being is that the government doesn't define "evil" - God does. So again, war is something that should be done by a government when it is directed and inspired by the Holy Spirit and the word of God.

I almost agree with you. I do agree government is not always right. We see that with Daniel and how he dealt with the government over him. He appealed when he could and ignored the law when it was contrary to God's teaching. But again, we have principles laid out in scripture concerning the shedding of blood. I will say that God can and does guide governing authorities if they will but listen.



Countries that are not directed by the Holy Spirit when going to war may when some victories, but will lose the battles in the end. We see this result being the case with many nations God allows to go to war with his people. For example, Israel - when directed by God, always succeeded in battle when they went to war with people. They only failed when they disobeyed God, and made treaties with people God didn't direct them to make peace with(i.e. Egyptians) - or tried to fight with people God had ordained would eventually overcome and take over them(i.e. Babylonians)

Actually, they didn't always succeed when directed by God to go to war. Ai is one example. There was sin in the camp and even though God told them to go to war, they lost. Another example can be found in Judges where Israel went to war 3 times. God told them to go and only on the third time were they successful.


Many countries like the one we are in now, start meaningless wars due to not being directed by the Holy Spirit, but being directed by the emotions/feelings/motives of man. So I agree with you in basic premise, war is something that is sometimes necessary, but only necessary when directed by God to do so. Thanks for the post though, it was insightful.

No doubt that men sin and bring their sin nature to government with them and that they miss God in many of their actions.

However, the purpose of the OP is to show that God does allow and endorse war and the death penalty in order to keep evil in check. Now, if you disagree with that, then let's discuss it further. If not, your point is well taken. But it doesn't change the point of the OP.



In Christ,

Stephen[/quote]

Friend of I AM
Jun 26th 2008, 08:13 PM
Sorry, wasn't trying to change the point of the Op. Only point I had was that we need to be careful in saying that God endorses men's wars and men's laws. I think God endorses himself when engaging in war for his own reasons, and that we should ideally make sure that we come to him before we engage in battle. Aside from that I do agree that God does have the power over life/death and does use death at times to enforce his will.

Brother Mark
Jun 26th 2008, 08:54 PM
Sorry, wasn't trying to change the point of the Op. Only point I had was that we need to be careful in saying that God endorses men's wars and men's laws. I think God endorses himself when engaging in war for his own reasons, and that we should ideally make sure that we come to him before we engage in battle. Aside from that I do agree that God does have the power over life/death and does use death at times to enforce his will.

OK. The point of the OP is that man often won't endorse God's principles concerning war and the death penalty. There is a reason he laid it out in scripture. So while I don't want to say God approves of all sides in all wars, I do want to say that many wars occur because God's men refuse to follow God's principles.

Hitler was allowed to war in ways in Europe and as a result, man paid a terrible price. Good men should have stopped him instead of giving him territory early on.

Another example is Saul. In refusing to kill all the Amalekites, he was himself killed by an amalekite. Then years later, Esther and her fellow Jews found themselves a target by Haman, an offspring of the Agag, king of the Amalekites that Saul allowed to live.

So yea, I agree that God did not endorse Hitler's war. But because men refuse to follow the principles of God concerning war and the death penalty, more and more violent people will be able to rise up in the end times. We already see it happening.

Sold Out
Jun 26th 2008, 09:01 PM
The point of the OP is not that peace nor mercy are bad, but that the death penalty and war are necessary at times.

That's what I got out of it too. I just read in the news that the Supreme Court struck down the death penalty for child rapists. That infuriates me. Let me just say if that ever happened to my child, I would enact my own death penalty. A ditch and a shovel is all I would need.

Oh, that probably seemed frightening to some of you....sorry.

Friend of I AM
Jun 27th 2008, 05:24 PM
OK. The point of the OP is that man often won't endorse God's principles concerning war and the death penalty. .

This may be true, however, I think the underlying problem isn't with man not endorsing death, but with man not endorsing God's principles of "love." Aside from that thanks for posting.

In Christ,

Stephen

Brother Mark
Jun 27th 2008, 05:47 PM
This may be true, however, I think the underlying problem isn't with man not endorsing death, but with man not endorsing God's principles of "love." Aside from that thanks for posting.

It's both Stephen. Love often requires the death penalty does it not? For God is love and he executes the death of many.

I will say this, if man lived completely by the commands of God, there would be no need for the death penalty. But man does not. So let's not diminish the command that God gave concerning the death penalty. We live in a fallen world and as a result, have been given a tool to keep man's evil in check. No matter how hard we try, we are not going back to the garden of Eden, nor are we going to live in a utopia. We must deal with the cards we have been dealt and the point of the OP is that we are ignoring the way God gave us to keep evil violence in check.

That doesn't nullify love. It only speaks to the practical and real way things are today.

threebigrocks
Jun 27th 2008, 05:50 PM
Just a word before this gets any further - if it goes all goofy like the other recent thread did on this topic this will be closed. ;)

mikebr
Jun 28th 2008, 02:55 AM
I agree with most of what is being said but one has to wonder why Jesus in the midst of a major conflict between Rome and Jerusalem didn't encourage a war. In fact He jumped Peter pretty good for using His sword to defend Him. He even told the people he taught to head to the hills when what He was telling them came to pass.

mikebr
Jun 28th 2008, 02:57 AM
That's what I got out of it too. I just read in the news that the Supreme Court struck down the death penalty for child rapists. That infuriates me. Let me just say if that ever happened to my child, I would enact my own death penalty. A ditch and a shovel is all I would need.

Oh, that probably seemed frightening to some of you....sorry.

Doesn't scare me but James does say that the wrath of man doesn't produce the righteousness of God.

Brother Mark
Jun 28th 2008, 03:15 AM
I agree with most of what is being said but one has to wonder why Jesus in the midst of a major conflict between Rome and Jerusalem didn't encourage a war. In fact He jumped Peter pretty good for using His sword to defend Him. He even told the people he taught to head to the hills when what He was telling them came to pass.

Jesus was not a governmental authority. As he said, had he come in that role, he would have waged war. But it wasn't his role while he was here. In Rev. though, he does wage war again. Also, we know that God ordered war many times in the OT. He commanded it. And Jesus and God are one. They agree. So if God commanded it so did Jesus.

Anyway, Jesus role while on earth was not as king of an earthly kingdom as was David's role. But when he comes to set up his kingdom on the earth (though the kingdom he preached is already here), he will definitely wage war as a king.

Friend of I AM
Jun 28th 2008, 03:13 PM
It's both Stephen. Love often requires the death penalty does it not? For God is love and he executes the death of many.


I don't want to go back and forth Mark, my underlying point had nothing to do with God not using death as a means to institute whatever loving purpose that he has in life. God does what he likes to do, and that includes at times allowing death to take individuals lives.

At the same time though, I disagree with your stance of "God condones government using the death penalty" on the basis of your assumming that God's motivations, thoughts, ideas, and purposes are always being instituted in societies that use the death penalty, as well as on the basis of one assumming that God's motivations are always the same as man's motivations, thoughts, and ideas. Thus, when contrasting and comparing God to man from any perspective(even a governmental one) one can't simply make a blanket statement like "God did [insert something here] in the bible, thus he always supports nations who use the death penalty." Making statements like this is very presumptuous, and one is assumming that man's plans for doing things are exactly the same as Gods.

Case in point, Did God support the nations that created/instituted the practice of crucifixion? If I'm not mistaken, I believe the Roman Empire, as well as many other nations that actually started/institued this practice of instituting of the death penalty were completely wiped out.


Based on your rationale, one could easily make the same comparison to God endorcing peace in all situations. For example, one could say - God supports Christian governments that make peace treaties with pagan nations , because Christ stated that we are to turn the other cheek and "blessed are the peacekeepers, for they will be called sons of God."

Again, making such claims would be presumptious on our part, and are essentially taking out of context what Christ himself is saying about peace, as his motivations and understanding of peace are much different than ours. God has his own motivations and intentions for doing things Mark, I fully agree that using death in his plans to bring about his purpose is something that he does, as I also agree that using peace within his plans to bring about his purpose is something that he does. What I don't support though is making blanket statements about "God supports something a government does" simply because God himself has done something similar to it within the scripture for his own purpose.

That being said I still do think you've made some interesting points regarding the death penalty, and how sometimes God does enact judgement upon people societies by giving them over to death. Thank you once again for your input.

In Christ,

Stephen

theleast
Jun 28th 2008, 03:31 PM
27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.

35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

What happened in the OT was all well and good, and we can learn from it but we have a new covenent written in our heart that supercedes any of the OT or the law. Christ gave us 2 commandments that we should follow.

Love God above all else.
Love your neighbor as yourself.

Don't be so quick to hand out death and judgement. It is not the place of a disciple of Christ. Our place is to good unto all, even those that would kill us.

Don't you know that God would have sent Christ legions of angels to defend him on the day of his crucifixion if Christ had asked for it? But Christ took his stripes and died instead. That is the lesson we were to learn and follow.

threebigrocks
Jun 28th 2008, 04:16 PM
27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.

35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

What happened in the OT was all well and good, and we can learn from it but we have a new covenent written in our heart that supercedes any of the OT or the law. Christ gave us 2 commandments that we should follow.

Love God above all else.
Love your neighbor as yourself.

Don't be so quick to hand out death and judgement. It is not the place of a disciple of Christ. Our place is to good unto all, even those that would kill us.

Don't you know that God would have sent Christ legions of angels to defend him on the day of his crucifixion if Christ had asked for it? But Christ took his stripes and died instead. That is the lesson we were to learn and follow.

That lesson says to simply do the will of the Father, even when our flesh screams for us to not have to endure something like that. Put ourselves aside, look to what glorifies God and to keep an eternal perspective.

It's not in a person handing out death and judgement phaeton, so much as God is a God of wrath and like Christ on the cross His work will be carried out many times through the hands of men including killing.

In Revelation, do you see 1/3rd, etc. of people being wiped out by God speaking it to be so or do you see it as men fighting against men that cause it? Many of the plagues will take lives, but ultimately God's plan will be carried out by the hands of men. And, I gaurantee that those who can will defend themselves including the saints in one form or another.

theleast
Jun 28th 2008, 04:22 PM
That lesson says to simply do the will of the Father, even when our flesh screams for us to not have to endure something like that. Put ourselves aside, look to what glorifies God and to keep an eternal perspective.

It's not in a person handing out death and judgement phaeton, so much as God is a God of wrath and like Christ on the cross His work will be carried out many times through the hands of men including killing.

In Revelation, do you see 1/3rd, etc. of people being wiped out by God speaking it to be so or do you see it as men fighting against men that cause it? Many of the plagues will take lives, but ultimately God's plan will be carried out by the hands of men. And, I gaurantee that those who can will defend themselves including the saints in one form or another.

Not the saints. The saints will endure till the end and take their stripes.

Yes men will kill men, but also God's judgements. Many will die and I am not willing for this to be so, but it is God's will, and I am subject to God above man. But if we are going to say that as Christians and servents of God WE are to take part in that killing I would like you to show in Christs words, or the words of his apostles under the new covenent, that we are to judge our fellow man with a judgement unto death.

fewarechosen
Jun 28th 2008, 10:49 PM
what is the point of the death sentence when the man is locked up already ?

why not give him time to come over to god ?

EarlyCall
Jun 28th 2008, 11:52 PM
27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.

35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

What happened in the OT was all well and good, and we can learn from it but we have a new covenent written in our heart that supercedes any of the OT or the law. Christ gave us 2 commandments that we should follow.

Love God above all else.
Love your neighbor as yourself.

Don't be so quick to hand out death and judgement. It is not the place of a disciple of Christ. Our place is to good unto all, even those that would kill us.

Don't you know that God would have sent Christ legions of angels to defend him on the day of his crucifixion if Christ had asked for it? But Christ took his stripes and died instead. That is the lesson we were to learn and follow.

You know, I keep hearing people refer to the OT as though there is nothing there for us today. Oh sure, I know, you and others give it lip service, but no matter what anyone refers to in the OT, you call if off limits and out of bounds. I wonder if you and the others could tell the rest of us exactly what we can use from the OT.

I think it is a cop out and very dishonest. I've have seen this over and over and over. Regardless of what anyone says, if they refer to the OT, it doesn't count. Doesn't matter in the least if it is no reference to any regulation the Jews were required to keep.

Shoot, if we could interject Genesis into this somehow it would be off limits. I'm not going to accept this argument - period.

In the OT, God said that a woman being raped and yet didn't cry for help and was in a place where she could be heard, was guilty. A woman being raped where her cry for help could not be heard would not be guilty even if she didn't cry for help.

Now please don't tell me that is OT and doesn't apply. I'm not done.

What do you think God expects might happen if a woman being raped cries for help? Do you think it ever occurred to God that someone might hear and come to her aid? Yea, I think God thought of that.

So lets' say that a woman is being raped and someone does hear her cries for help and comes to her aid.

What I'd like from you is for you to tell me what God permits and does not permit her would-be rescuer to do in order to save the woman. What does God expect the would-be rescuer to do? What does God expect - period?

To get it started, here are some thoughts on what we should do.

1) We should discuss the matter with the rapist in an attempt to get him to understand the consequences of his actions

2) We should sing worship songs and pray

3) We should preach the gospel

4) Inform the woman being raped that we can help her find counseling after the rape is over

5) Tell the rapist God loves him

6) Tell the woman God loves her too

7) Ask the rapist if he is using protection

8) Ask the woman if she gets pregnant if she thinks she will get an abortion, and if she replies that she would, tell her there are alternatives

9) Try to comfort the woman and talk her through the rape

10) Show courage and strength and keep right on praying if God doesn't stop the rapist from raping the woman. Keep the faith!

and finally, could it be that God actually expects something from us along the lines of:

11) Do whatever it takes to stop the rapist and save the woman - up to and including killing the rapist if that is what it takes

There is no 911 to dial, there is no phone. There are no cops to call. God didn't write these words in 2008. He wrote them long, long ago and people have had to live by them long before there was 911 to call.

It is you, the rapist, the woman and God watching to see what you o.

Now finally, if you do not like number 11 above, if you think it is contrary to God and His word, then please explain to me what you think God has in mind, starting with...

The woman being raped, crying fro help, someone hearing and coming to what? Her aid? Not if the would-be rescuer cannot use violence. So here is where you tell me what God expects.

I hope I've explained this well enough to not be confusing. If it is, that is entirely my fault and I apologize.

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 04:46 AM
I don't want to go back and forth Mark, my underlying point had nothing to do with God not using death as a means to institute whatever loving purpose that he has in life. God does what he likes to do, and that includes at times allowing death to take individuals lives.

Not just allowing death, but bringing death upon a person. There is a difference.


At the same time though, I disagree with your stance of "God condones government using the death penalty" on the basis of your assumming that God's motivations, thoughts, ideas, and purposes are always being instituted in societies that use the death penalty, as well as on the basis of one assumming that God's motivations are always the same as man's motivations, thoughts, and ideas.

Oh, I didn't say "always" anywhere in the OP. Certainly one can use the death penalty and not do so according to God's will and plan. Using the death penalty for political purposes, for different religious beliefs, etc is all contrary to the word. But God does condone and has established that governments implement the death penalty. On that we can agree. Right?


Thus, when contrasting and comparing God to man from any perspective(even a governmental one) one can't simply make a blanket statement like "God did [insert something here] in the bible, thus he always supports nations who use the death penalty." Making statements like this is very presumptuous, and one is assumming that man's plans for doing things are exactly the same as Gods.

I really didn't compare God to man. Again, nor did I saw always in the sense that every application of the death penalty is good. Just that God has given the death penalty to man for use from the time of Noah, till now and on into Revelation.


Case in point, Did God support the nations that created/instituted the practice of crucifixion? If I'm not mistaken, I believe the Roman Empire, as well as many other nations that actually started/institued this practice of instituting of the death penalty were completely wiped out.

Not sure where you get the idea I have said all forms of death penalty are embraced by God. However, as to this means of the death penalty, Christ did say "take up your cross". I can't find where he preached against crucifixion.


Based on your rationale, one could easily make the same comparison to God endorcing peace in all situations. For example, one could say - God supports Christian governments that make peace treaties with pagan nations , because Christ stated that we are to turn the other cheek and "blessed are the peacekeepers, for they will be called sons of God."

Nope. The situation for the death penalty was described in the OP as murder.


Again, making such claims would be presumptious on our part, and are essentially taking out of context what Christ himself is saying about peace, as his motivations and understanding of peace are much different than ours. God has his own motivations and intentions for doing things Mark, I fully agree that using death in his plans to bring about his purpose is something that he does, as I also agree that using peace within his plans to bring about his purpose is something that he does. What I don't support though is making blanket statements about "God supports something a government does" simply because God himself has done something similar to it within the scripture for his own purpose.

I think you read far more into the OP than what is there. The point of the OP was not that God supports all things governments do and every instance of the death penalty but rather God enabled and commanded government to use the death penalty and therefor, supports the use of the death penalty as a way to punish murderers.

theothersock
Jun 29th 2008, 05:38 AM
27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.

35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

What happened in the OT was all well and good, and we can learn from it but we have a new covenent written in our heart that supercedes any of the OT or the law. Christ gave us 2 commandments that we should follow.

Love God above all else.
Love your neighbor as yourself.

Don't be so quick to hand out death and judgement. It is not the place of a disciple of Christ. Our place is to good unto all, even those that would kill us.

Don't you know that God would have sent Christ legions of angels to defend him on the day of his crucifixion if Christ had asked for it? But Christ took his stripes and died instead. That is the lesson we were to learn and follow.

I am glad!

I had scrolled through the many responses, fearing that I would be the only one to recall these verses.

The Old Testament taught of the death penalty for their was no reconciliation in Christ.

However, the New Covenant is clear. If a man shall strike you, turn the other cheek.

How do you reconcile that with the death penalty?

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 06:06 AM
I am glad!

I had scrolled through the many responses, fearing that I would be the only one to recall these verses.

The Old Testament taught of the death penalty for their was no reconciliation in Christ.

However, the New Covenant is clear. If a man shall strike you, turn the other cheek.

How do you reconcile that with the death penalty?

We are, as individual belivers, to turn the other cheek, but as the OP pointed out, Romans 13 still involves the sword and the death penalty. It is part of government's job to keep murderous men in check.

theothersock
Jun 29th 2008, 06:25 AM
We are, as individual belivers, to turn the other cheek, but as the OP pointed out, Romans 13 still involves the sword and the death penalty. It is part of government's job to keep murderous men in check.

Indeed.

But being of the government, is that not of the secular world?

Are we not Biblically admonished to avoid controversies of law and strifes regarding politics?

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." - Titus 3 : 9

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 06:34 AM
Indeed.

But being of the government, is that not of the secular world?

Joseph was part of the government in Egypt. Daniel and the three Hebrew children were part of the government in Babylon. Then of course we have many examples of the Judges of Israel that ruled before Israel asked for a king.


Are we not Biblically admonished to avoid controversies of law and strifes regarding politics?Scripture does not tell us to avoid being a part of government. Rather, as I stated above, it gives us many examples of Godly men that were a part of government.


"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." - Titus 3 : 9Amen! But that is talking about the Law of God not government. It is speaking of scriptural genealogies, not our family tree.

EarlyCall
Jun 29th 2008, 06:48 AM
27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.

35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

What happened in the OT was all well and good, and we can learn from it but we have a new covenent written in our heart that supercedes any of the OT or the law. Christ gave us 2 commandments that we should follow.

Love God above all else.
Love your neighbor as yourself.

Don't be so quick to hand out death and judgement. It is not the place of a disciple of Christ. Our place is to good unto all, even those that would kill us.

Don't you know that God would have sent Christ legions of angels to defend him on the day of his crucifixion if Christ had asked for it? But Christ took his stripes and died instead. That is the lesson we were to learn and follow.

I'm wondering if you will respond or not, but I'm going to post this anyway.

I've heard all these arguments before. You throw out the OT. You do so because it helps you defend your argument. I don't buy it.

But the scripture you use, I think you use wrongly and only to your advantage to support your argument.

I'll explain.

Tell me something, are you of the mind society should be chaos? That criminals should run the streets free to do whatever they please to whomever they please? And further that they should not be punished?

Will you answer this question first please?

Because unless you believe that, I think you are dishonest in your use of scripture as are many.

See, the thing is, it is not an act of love to put someone in jail. Nor is it an act of forgiveness. Now I fully expect you to try and claim it is, but please don't. Much to transparent to get away with it.

So basically what I am getting at is that you are not willing to turn the other cheek, to show love and forgiveness to the criminal - until we start talking about the death penalty.

Ah yes, and then you begin to cite scripture and speak of such things. But otherwise, the scripture does not apply to our justice system.

You say, show me scripture that says we can put someone to death - in the NT of course because you refuse the OT. Well, show me scripture that says we are no longer to put anyone to death for crimes committed. Show me scripture that says we should put them in jail? Or that we should not put them in jail.

So what do you say?

theothersock
Jun 29th 2008, 06:54 AM
Joseph was part of the government in Egypt. Daniel and the three Hebrew children were part of the government in Babylon. Then of course we have many examples of the Judges of Israel that ruled before Israel asked for a king.

These are good examples. However, did Shadrac, Meshac or Abednigo lobby to have the statue torn down? Did they pass out petitions? Write letters to the king's advisors?

They did not participate in sinful behavior, but were respectful to the dignitaries, nor did they attempt to legislatively force the hand of the Babylonian citizens.


Scripture does not tell us to avoid being a part of government. Rather, as I stated above, it gives us many examples of Godly men that were a part of government.

This is a very good point. I wonder, are there any New Testament examples as well?


Amen! But that is talking about the Law of God not government. It is speaking of scriptural genealogies, not our family tree.

You speak well regarding this issue, and have done much to enlighten my perspective. I had already dedicated another thread to this particular discussion before reading your response. Your wisdom would be greatly appreciated there.

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 07:06 AM
These are good examples. However, did Shadrac, Meshac or Abednigo lobby to have the statue torn down? Did they pass out petitions? Write letters to the king's advisors?

They did not participate in sinful behavior, but were respectful to the dignitaries, nor did they attempt to legislatively force the hand of the Babylonian citizens.

Joseph did. Pharaoh pretty much told everyone to do what Joseph told them to do. Joseph then told folks what to do for the coming famine. As a result, Pharaoh had a lot of grain and was made wealthy through Joseph's advice and counsel and actions. And Babylon asked those guys to run the kingdom. Do you think they just sat around with no suggestions about legislation? Why did the king have them as advisers?

I will say this... the religious right in this country goes too far in many instances. I think a case can be made that their behavior is similar to the behavior of Pharisees in scripture. There is a difference between working to protect the innocent children from being killed by asking the law to protect them and trying to bring to bear all of scripture upon a secular society.


This is a very good point. I wonder, are there any New Testament examples as well?

If the NT doesn't forbid it, isn't the OT enough? They do not disagree with one another but rather, complement one another.


You speak well regarding this issue, and have done much to enlighten my perspective. I had already dedicated another thread to this particular discussion before reading your response. Your wisdom would be greatly appreciated there.

You'll have to provide me with a link. Thanks for the compliment.

theleast
Jun 29th 2008, 02:30 PM
You know, I keep hearing people refer to the OT as though there is nothing there for us today. Oh sure, I know, you and others give it lip service, but no matter what anyone refers to in the OT, you call if off limits and out of bounds. I wonder if you and the others could tell the rest of us exactly what we can use from the OT.

I think it is a cop out and very dishonest. I've have seen this over and over and over. Regardless of what anyone says, if they refer to the OT, it doesn't count. Doesn't matter in the least if it is no reference to any regulation the Jews were required to keep.

Shoot, if we could interject Genesis into this somehow it would be off limits. I'm not going to accept this argument - period.

In the OT, God said that a woman being raped and yet didn't cry for help and was in a place where she could be heard, was guilty. A woman being raped where her cry for help could not be heard would not be guilty even if she didn't cry for help.

Now please don't tell me that is OT and doesn't apply. I'm not done.

What do you think God expects might happen if a woman being raped cries for help? Do you think it ever occurred to God that someone might hear and come to her aid? Yea, I think God thought of that.

So lets' say that a woman is being raped and someone does hear her cries for help and comes to her aid.

What I'd like from you is for you to tell me what God permits and does not permit her would-be rescuer to do in order to save the woman. What does God expect the would-be rescuer to do? What does God expect - period?

To get it started, here are some thoughts on what we should do.

1) We should discuss the matter with the rapist in an attempt to get him to understand the consequences of his actions

2) We should sing worship songs and pray

3) We should preach the gospel

4) Inform the woman being raped that we can help her find counseling after the rape is over

5) Tell the rapist God loves him

6) Tell the woman God loves her too

7) Ask the rapist if he is using protection

8) Ask the woman if she gets pregnant if she thinks she will get an abortion, and if she replies that she would, tell her there are alternatives

9) Try to comfort the woman and talk her through the rape

10) Show courage and strength and keep right on praying if God doesn't stop the rapist from raping the woman. Keep the faith!

and finally, could it be that God actually expects something from us along the lines of:

11) Do whatever it takes to stop the rapist and save the woman - up to and including killing the rapist if that is what it takes

There is no 911 to dial, there is no phone. There are no cops to call. God didn't write these words in 2008. He wrote them long, long ago and people have had to live by them long before there was 911 to call.

It is you, the rapist, the woman and God watching to see what you o.

Now finally, if you do not like number 11 above, if you think it is contrary to God and His word, then please explain to me what you think God has in mind, starting with...

The woman being raped, crying fro help, someone hearing and coming to what? Her aid? Not if the would-be rescuer cannot use violence. So here is where you tell me what God expects.

I hope I've explained this well enough to not be confusing. If it is, that is entirely my fault and I apologize.

I never said there is nothing for us in the OT. There is prophecy and much more. But the law of the OT is vanished, and there is a new covenent, don't ignore that part, as you accuse us of ignoring the OT.

In the case of the woman being raped, I would approach it in this manner. I would pull the rapist off and tell the woman to run for help. Then if the rapist proceeds to run, he can run. If the rapist begins to beat me up, I get beat up. If he proceeds to stab me with a knife, I get stabbed. If he proceeds to shoot me, he shoots.

It is my responsibility to help the woman who is being raped, it is not my responsibility to judge the rapist.

theleast
Jun 29th 2008, 02:33 PM
I am glad!

I had scrolled through the many responses, fearing that I would be the only one to recall these verses.

The Old Testament taught of the death penalty for their was no reconciliation in Christ.

However, the New Covenant is clear. If a man shall strike you, turn the other cheek.

How do you reconcile that with the death penalty?

Through pride, and judgement. Two things which a Christian is to be without.

We are to be patient, kind, have temperance, show charity, and love.

theleast
Jun 29th 2008, 02:36 PM
We are, as individual belivers, to turn the other cheek, but as the OP pointed out, Romans 13 still involves the sword and the death penalty. It is part of government's job to keep murderous men in check.

It is for a Christian to follow the law of governments. Don't break the law.

But above that it is also the law to follow the commandments of Christ. My first duty is to God.

If your government makes it law for you take the mark of the beast will you use Romans 13 to justify taking it?

theleast
Jun 29th 2008, 02:39 PM
I'm wondering if you will respond or not, but I'm going to post this anyway.

I've heard all these arguments before. You throw out the OT. You do so because it helps you defend your argument. I don't buy it.

But the scripture you use, I think you use wrongly and only to your advantage to support your argument.

I'll explain.

Tell me something, are you of the mind society should be chaos? That criminals should run the streets free to do whatever they please to whomever they please? And further that they should not be punished?

Will you answer this question first please?

Because unless you believe that, I think you are dishonest in your use of scripture as are many.

See, the thing is, it is not an act of love to put someone in jail. Nor is it an act of forgiveness. Now I fully expect you to try and claim it is, but please don't. Much to transparent to get away with it.

So basically what I am getting at is that you are not willing to turn the other cheek, to show love and forgiveness to the criminal - until we start talking about the death penalty.

Ah yes, and then you begin to cite scripture and speak of such things. But otherwise, the scripture does not apply to our justice system.

You say, show me scripture that says we can put someone to death - in the NT of course because you refuse the OT. Well, show me scripture that says we are no longer to put anyone to death for crimes committed. Show me scripture that says we should put them in jail? Or that we should not put them in jail.

So what do you say?

Everything you are talking about here concerns the world and flesh.

I was chossen out of the world.

All of the chaos in the world was told aforetime. I follow Christs two commandments because that is my spiritual duty.

Why do I care what happens to the world that has one that judges it other than me whose judgement is righteous?

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 02:49 PM
It is for a Christian to follow the law of governments. Don't break the law.

But above that it is also the law to follow the commandments of Christ. My first duty is to God.

If your government makes it law for you take the mark of the beast will you use Romans 13 to justify taking it?

We do as Daniel did. Follow till the law requires us to sin. But we also keep in mind that God established the death penalty and gave it to Noah. We see where it was executed as well by David. Then it is carried into the NT in Romans 13. That's sort of the point of the whole thread.

theleast
Jun 29th 2008, 02:57 PM
We do as Daniel did. Follow till the law requires us to sin. But we also keep in mind that God established the death penalty and gave it to Noah. We see where it was executed as well by David. Then it is carried into the NT in Romans 13. That's sort of the point of the whole thread.

Then we don't agree on what Romans 13 says.

It is not an excuse for one chossen by Christ to murder.

That is the lot of governments, not believers in God.

Our lot is to follow the law until it violates our commandments.

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 02:59 PM
Then we don't agree on what Romans 13 says.

It is not an excuse for one chossen by Christ to murder.

The death penalty is not murder. For God would not command people, saved or lost to murder.


Our lot is to follow the law until it violates our commandments.

I agree with this statement to a degree. Never should a believer sin even if government tells him to. I would broaden the statement to say that believers can also participate in government.

theleast
Jun 29th 2008, 03:02 PM
What do you make of these verses from Romans 13 I wonder?

9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

theleast
Jun 29th 2008, 03:03 PM
The death penalty is not murder. For God would not command people, saved or lost to murder.



I agree with this statement to a degree. Never should a believer sin even if government tells him to. I would broaden the statement to say that believers can also participate in government.

What will it profit my spirit to participate in wordly and carnal things?

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 03:27 PM
What will it profit my spirit to participate in wordly and carnal things?

A government job is no more worldly and carnal than any other secular job that has been done throughout time. God raised up David to be a king. He raised up Daniel to participate in the government of Babylon. He not only called, but worked out circumstances to have Joseph be a part of the government of Egypt. It was of great profit that all of these men were part of government. Joseph was used to save his people. Daniel was used as a missionary to the Babylonians. When the savior was born, wise me from the East came looking for Jesus. I believe they were saved as a direct result of Daniel's witness. And of course, much can be written of David's exploits and how they benefited Israel.

God doesn't change his ways.

theleast
Jun 29th 2008, 03:34 PM
A government job is no more worldly and carnal than any other secular job that has been done throughout time. God raised up David to be a king. He raised up Daniel to participate in the government of Babylon. He not only called, but worked out circumstances to have Joseph be a part of the government of Egypt. It was of great profit that all of these men were part of government. Joseph was used to save his people. Daniel was used as a missionary to the Babylonians. When the savior was born, wise me from the East came looking for Jesus. I believe they were saved as a direct result of Daniel's witness. And of course, much can be written of David's exploits and how they benefited Israel.

God doesn't change his ways.

But he did change his covenent.

We now have the Holy Spirit indwelling.

Vhayes
Jun 29th 2008, 03:37 PM
It is for a Christian to follow the law of governments. Don't break the law.

But above that it is also the law to follow the commandments of Christ. My first duty is to God.

If your government makes it law for you take the mark of the beast will you use Romans 13 to justify taking it?
But what are you required to do if someone else breaks the law? Stand by and let it happen?

That's anarchy and confusion and God is not the author of confusion.

theleast
Jun 29th 2008, 03:42 PM
But what are you required to do if someone else breaks the law? Stand by and let it happen?

That's anarchy and confusion and God is not the author of confusion.

If you see somebody breaking the law rebuke them.

EarlyCall
Jun 29th 2008, 03:46 PM
I never said there is nothing for us in the OT. There is prophecy and much more. But the law of the OT is vanished, and there is a new covenent, don't ignore that part, as you accuse us of ignoring the OT.

In the case of the woman being raped, I would approach it in this manner. I would pull the rapist off and tell the woman to run for help. Then if the rapist proceeds to run, he can run. If the rapist begins to beat me up, I get beat up. If he proceeds to stab me with a knife, I get stabbed. If he proceeds to shoot me, he shoots.

It is my responsibility to help the woman who is being raped, it is not my responsibility to judge the rapist.

And yet you still use the same tired old argument: that is the OT. It was not a law for the Jews, it was the mind of God for mankind.

You created a scenario convenient for you, one in which you failed to mention the rapist killing the woman because you were not willing to do whatever it took to stop him. I call that avoiding the hard question.

EarlyCall
Jun 29th 2008, 03:50 PM
Everything you are talking about here concerns the world and flesh.

I was chossen out of the world.

All of the chaos in the world was told aforetime. I follow Christs two commandments because that is my spiritual duty.

Why do I care what happens to the world that has one that judges it other than me whose judgement is righteous?

And you are pretending reality doesn't exist and avoiding the hard questions. Terribly transparent you know.

Odd, but God has been dealing with the world and the flesh for a very long time. I don't see Him pretending otherwise.

Regardless, I think you could not address the matter well and so you avoided it. Sorry, but that is what it looks like to me. If you want to pretend we should have no justice system and that by God's directive in the NT, then so be it. I wont' waste my time with that. You want to argue your position but you won't address the hard questions put to you. I don't play with people like that.

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 05:44 PM
I never said there is nothing for us in the OT. There is prophecy and much more. But the law of the OT is vanished, and there is a new covenent, don't ignore that part, as you accuse us of ignoring the OT.

The death penalty started before the old covenant was given. It was given to Noah, the ancestor of all mankind. It was given again to Moses. It was given again in the NT in Romans 13. How many times does God have to give it before we figure he means what he says?


In the case of the woman being raped, I would approach it in this manner. I would pull the rapist off and tell the woman to run for help. Then if the rapist proceeds to run, he can run. If the rapist begins to beat me up, I get beat up. If he proceeds to stab me with a knife, I get stabbed. If he proceeds to shoot me, he shoots.

It is my responsibility to help the woman who is being raped, it is not my responsibility to judge the rapist.

The very fact that you use force to stop him means you have already judged him. You just didn't pass sentence.

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 05:46 PM
If you see somebody breaking the law rebuke them.

That would require that you judge them guilty of breaking the law.

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 05:49 PM
What do you make of these verses from Romans 13 I wonder?

9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


Killing and murder are two completely different things. As a citizen of God's kingdom, I work no ill to my neighbor. However, as a citizens of God's kingdom, when he pronounces that one should die, to Noah, to Moses, and to us in Romans 13, then perhaps we should also be obedient there.

Friend of I AM
Jun 29th 2008, 05:56 PM
I think you read far more into the OP than what is there. The point of the OP was not that God supports all things governments do and every instance of the death penalty but rather God enabled and commanded government to use the death penalty and therefor, supports the use of the death penalty as a way to punish murderers.


My point is that God has many ways of punishing individuals for various sins they've commmited within their lifetimes. We can't really always make an equatable comparison to God's intentions/use of such a penalty, to that of man's. If we were to do so, we would essentially be saying that everything God does for various reasons, we ourselves can also do and our ways for doing these things are justifiable based on God doing them. This is not the case. Our ways are not his ways, nor are our thoughts his thoughts.

Let's take your Cain example, why didn't God destroy Cain right away? He had taken Able's life - and thus God could have taken his life as well. But instead, God actually had mercy on Cain, and stated that Cain himself could be saved if he were to follow God's commands and do what was right.

Mercy is an attribute that is equally applicable to all situations when God acts, as is taking an individuals life. We need to be careful in equating all of God's ways, with the ways of mankind/government when discussing what he deems as appropriate punishments by governments in various situations.

In Christ,

Stephen

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 06:00 PM
My point is that God has many ways of punishing individuals for various sins they've commmited within their lifetimes. We can't really always make an equatable comparison to God's intentions/use of such a penalty, to that of man's. If we were to do so, we would essentially be saying that everything God does for various reasons, we ourselves can also do and our ways for doing this things are justifiable based on God doing them. This is not the case. Our ways are not his ways, nor are our thoughts are not his thoughts.

Let's take your Cain example, why didn't God destroy Cain right away? He had taken Able's life - and thus God could have slayed his life as well. But instead, God actually had mercy on Cain, and stated that Cain himself could be saved if he were to follow God's commands and do what was right.

That was dealt with a little in the OP. He didn't kill Cain. Lamech saw that and went further and killed a man and a boy. Eventually, the world became even more violent. After He himself destroyed the world, he then instituted the death penalty.



Mercy is an attribute that is equally applicable to all situations when God acts, as is taking an individuals life. We need to be careful in equating all of God's ways, with the ways of mankind when discussing what he deems as appropriate in various situations.

Mercy is wonderful! Show me one place in scripture where God commands a government to be merciful as it concerns law. As believers, we are to be merciful and forgive. Yet, if we are to be obedient, then our government should enforce the death penalty. If we choose to show mercy I would say that is fine. But to not have the death penalty at all would be to go against the commands of God.

You keep inferring that I am speaking to man's ways. I am not. The entire point of the OP is that one of God's ways is the death penalty for murder that has been in place since the time of Noah.

Friend of I AM
Jun 29th 2008, 06:23 PM
That was dealt with a little in the OP. He didn't kill Cain. Lamech saw that and went further and killed a man and a boy. Eventually, the world became even more violent. After He himself destroyed the world, he then instituted the death penalty.


What you see as God implementing death, one can also state as God implementing mercy and giving life. Had God not regenerated the world with the flood, there would be no life on earth and the earth would have been completely destroyed. We can look at this from either perspective, God showing mercy or God punishing mankind by taking lives - the major point here is that God acted in a way, his own way - and just because he himself did something in whatever way he chose to do it, it doesn't mean that every action we thus take ourselves is equatable to that.





Mercy is wonderful! Show me one place in scripture where God commands a government to be merciful as it concerns law.



2 Corinthians 10:3-5
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: The weapons we use in our fight are not made by humans. (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

We need to cast down our own imagination/interpretation of what we think God condones regarding man's laws - and what actions he supports regarding an individual who has commited an offense against him. God uses death as punishment on man - that is true, but God uses mercy as well.

His ability to use death in some situations, and mercy in others isn't synonomous with the way in which governments themselves can do these things. Our governments are based on human rules and regulations, our testimonies and our battles are based on the spirit of God, and our weapons are of the spirit - not of the flesh.




You keep inferring that I am speaking to man's ways. I am not. The entire point of the OP is that one of God's ways is the death penalty for murder that has been in place since the time of Noah.

And my point is that God's way of showing mercy to all of his creations has existed since the beginning. God's mercy has always been great for everyone, and thus like his ability to use death, he can use either of these things to implement whatever he wants to. We can't always equate God's principles with man's principles when trying to justify actions taken by man for various crimes they've commited within human society.

In Christ

Stephen

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 06:31 PM
What you see as God implementing death, one can also state as God implementing mercy and giving life. Had God not regenerated the world with the flood, there would be no life on earth and the earth would have been completely destroyed. We can look at this from either perspective, God showing mercy or God punishing mankind by taking lives - the major point here is that God acted in a way, his own way - and just because he himself did something in whatever way he chose to do it, it doesn't mean that every action we thus take ourselves is equatable to that.

I keep saying I am not speaking of "every action". Not every implementation of the death penalty is God's will. It's his will that mankind have and implement the death penalty.


2 Corinthians 10:3-5
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: The weapons we use in our fight are not made by humans. (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

We need to cast down our own imagination/interpretation of what we think God condones regarding man's laws - and what actions he supports regarding an individual who has commited an offense against him. God uses death as punishment on man - that is true, but God uses mercy as well.

That verse does not tell government of man to have mercy on those that murder. Again, we are not speaking of man's laws. But rather God's laws that man should have implemented. Do you understand what I am saying? I am saying that God desires man to have the death penalty in his governmental law. I am not saying the death penalty is man's law but rather, it should be a part of his law because God gave it to us for a specific purpose.


His ability to use death in some situations, and mercy in others isn't synonomous with the way in which governments themselves can do these things. Our governments are based on human rules and regulations, our testimonies and our battles are based on the spirit of God, and our weapons are of the spirit - not of the flesh.

Of course not on a personal level. But on a governmental level, where does God tell governments to be merciful?



And my point is that God's way of showing mercy to all of his creations has existed since the beginning. God's mercy has always been great for everyone, and thus like his ability to use death, he can use either of these things to implement whatever he wants to. We can't always equate God's principles with man's principles when trying to justify actions taken by man for various crimes they've commited within human society.

No one here is arguing against God showing mercy. Are you suggesting God is against the death penalty that he instituted? Again, the point of the OP is that God told man to have the death penalty. It is God's law not man's law.

Friend of I AM
Jun 29th 2008, 06:37 PM
No one here is arguing against God showing mercy. Are you suggesting God is against the death penalty that he instituted?

I'm saying that God is for himself Mark. You can't simply say "God supports man's death penalty", simply based on the fact that God allowed death to take someone's life. Nor can I say "God supports men's peace treaties" based on similar rationale. God is for himself, and thank God he is - as the whims of men are very variable and often times unstable. Thank God we have a God who is constant, and does not have to depend on the logic and rationale of men.

In Christ,

Stephen

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 06:39 PM
I'm saying that God is for himself Mark. You can't simply say "God supports man's death penalty", simply based on the fact that God allowed death to take someone's life.

I am not saying God supports man's death penalty. I am saying man should support God's death penalty. For instance, God said "thou shalt not steal". Man too has this in his laws. It is not man's law! It's God's law. God said that if man murdered, then man will shed that man's blood. That's not man's law. That's God's law.

That's the point of the OP. God was the one who instituted the death penalty. Not man. God started it and declared it. Not man. Man started murder.

So just as we teach "Thou shalt not murder" and "thou shalt not steal" so should we speak of the death penalty. Though it is not part of the 10 commandments, it was still given to man to carry out.

Friend of I AM
Jun 29th 2008, 06:54 PM
I am not saying God supports man's death penalty. I am saying man should support God's death penalty. For instance, God said "thou shalt not steal". Man too has this in his laws. It is not man's law! It's God's law. God said that if man murdered, then man will shed that man's blood. That's not man's law. That's God's law.

That's the point of the OP. God was the one who instituted the death penalty. Not man. God started it and declared it. Not man. Man started murder.

So just as we teach "Thou shalt not murder" and "thou shalt not steal" so should we speak of the death penalty. Though it is not part of the 10 commandments, it was still given to man to carry out.

God also stated for us to "love one another." Again Mark - we can't just take one aspect of the Word - and assume that God's rationale applies equally to that of man's in all situations. If that were the case, no one would be saved - as all have disobeyed Christ's command of "loving one another" at some point, and thus are not worthy of receiving life.

Should the government now enforce the death penalty to a man based on the fact that the man hasn't followed this command? I don't think so.
He also stated for us to "forgive and we ourselves will be forgiven" and to be "merciful and we will receive mercy." Should not man's government also enforce these principles as well?

That being said, I do appreciate our discussion - and I hope I haven't said anything that has offended you during it. I don't agree with you on this issue, but I thank you once again for posting your stance on it, as I also thank others for their input.

In Christ,

Stephen

davidandme
Jun 29th 2008, 07:15 PM
Let's look at the history of murder and violence. Then from there, we can see how God chose to handle it. We all know that Cain was the first man to murder. Look at how God handled his punishment.

Gen 4:9-15

9 Then the Lord said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" And he said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?" 10 And He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground. 11 And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. 12 When you cultivate the ground, it shall no longer yield its strength to you; you shall be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth." 13 And Cain said to the Lord, "My punishment is too great to bear! 14 "Behold, Thou hast driven me this day from the face of the ground; and from Thy face I shall be hidden, and I shall be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth, and it will come about that whoever finds me will kill me." 15 So the Lord said to him, "Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold." And the Lord appointed a sign for Cain, lest anyone finding him should slay him.
NASB

God would not let any man take vengeance upon Cain. No one could kill Cain for what he had done. (Note. At this time, we have no mention of government.)
Later, we see a second killing occur. Look at the man's reasoning.

Gen 4:23-24
23 And Lamech said to his wives,

"Adah and Zillah,
Listen to my voice,
You wives of Lamech,
Give heed to my speech,
For I have killed a man for wounding me;
And a boy for striking me;
24 If Cain is avenged sevenfold,
Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold."
NASB

Perhaps it was self defense with the man but certainly not the boy! We do know this, the world was becoming violent and men knew that God had protected Cain from being killed for his murder. As a result, folks were thinking they could get by with murder. They were wrong of course. But man is easily deceived about such things. Fast forward to the flood. Why did God send the flood?

Gen 6:5-7

5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 And the Lord said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."
NASB

Man only thought of evil continually. What kind of evil was man thinking?

Gen 6:11-12
11 Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.
NASB

The earthy had become exceedingly violent. Why? We see the clue given in the way Lamech's thinking went. I can kill without concern of being avenged. Of course, they didn't think about God's punishment on Cain and how severe it was. But little did they know what was coming next! God sent the flood and wiped them all out because they were so violent. Afterwards, he went into covenant with all of mankind. Never again would he destroy the world by flood. Afterwards God established the death penalty.

Gen 9:5-7
5 And surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man's brother I will require the life of man.
6 "Whoever sheds man's blood,
By man his blood shall be shed,
For in the image of God He made man.
7 "And as for you, be fruitful and multiply;
Populate the earth abundantly and multiply in it."
NASB

Why did God establish the death penalty? Because he was not going to flood the world again. He went into covenant with man. Knowing how violent man would become again, especially if given the new covenant he had made with man, and knowing that man would respond the same way as he did after man saw how God treated Cain, God instituted the death penalty. The purpose? To keep man's inherit sin nature in check through other men. The heart is desperately wicked. So God put forth the death penalty in order to control man's violent behavior.

We can trace the death penalty throughout the law of Moses. We are all familiar with that. But this predates the law of Moses. But now, lets fast forward to the NT.

Rom 13:1-6

13 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil. 5 Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.
NASB

Here we see again, the command to bear the sword (which is used for shedding blood and killing) is still given to the government (in the same way the Law of Moses was given to govern Israel). It is still meant to control evil men. We have now traced the death penalty from the time of Noah, through the Law of Moses, right into the new testament. It's purpose was always the same, to control evil men and to root them out.

However, there is an overriding purpose as well. The anti-christ will be extremely violent. Governments are used to keep him in check. I know the Holy Spirit does this as well. But we have already seen how God has commanded man to keep himself in check by killing those that murder. In the latter days, what can we expect? Jesus said things would be similar to the days of Noah.

Matt 24:37-39
37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 "For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, they were marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.
NASB

He said something similar in other gospels. We can read through Matthew 24 and see there will be martyrs. We also see the same thing in Revelations. It will be just like the days of Noah where folks are violent without any worries of the consequences. If Cain was avenged 7 times, then they would be avenged 77 times! Clearly the end times will be a violent time. Why? Because as we move forward, we will see more and more resistance to God and his ways. One of his ways is that when evil men murder, they are to be killed. If a man murders through starting a war, then he is to be killed. If a man murders one person, then he is to be killed. As mankind loses his taste for God's ways and loses his stomach for capital punishment and war, then the beast will begin to rise up and war will come though another people.

We will see resistance to the death penalty, resistance to using war to stop evil men from murdering. As this resistance increases, it will embolden those that are full of of violence. Then the world will begin working towards being like it was in the days of Noah when the world was filled with violence, because men refused to obey God and implement his way of dealing with evil men. These evil men will rise and become more and more powerful and they will martyr the believers. And believers, will rightfully turn the other cheek. Yet, they will cry out to God in heaven to take vengeance because mankind will no longer be carrying out his duty to be the sword of God to bring wrath upon the evil doer through government.

Rev 6:10
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
NASB

After this, and at the right time, God will descend and again destroy evil that man let thrive through refusing to follow the commands of God, including those commands on how to keep evil in check through the sword of government.
Very insightful post, to say the least. But war does not always equals justice. I also don't believe in the death penalty. This is why we have jails and rehabilitation centers. God gives life. Men has no right to take it away, under any circumtance. God bless.

theleast
Jun 29th 2008, 07:49 PM
And you are pretending reality doesn't exist and avoiding the hard questions. Terribly transparent you know.

Odd, but God has been dealing with the world and the flesh for a very long time. I don't see Him pretending otherwise.

Regardless, I think you could not address the matter well and so you avoided it. Sorry, but that is what it looks like to me. If you want to pretend we should have no justice system and that by God's directive in the NT, then so be it. I wont' waste my time with that. You want to argue your position but you won't address the hard questions put to you. I don't play with people like that.

Geez, I thought we were just talking here you don't have to be rude.

What hard question did you put to me that I didn't answer?

Governments can have justice systems and laws, and in fact they should, but at the end of the day they pass unrighteous laws.

My allegience is to God, not an unrighteous nation that is abhorrant to my God.

theleast
Jun 29th 2008, 07:50 PM
The death penalty started before the old covenant was given. It was given to Noah, the ancestor of all mankind. It was given again to Moses. It was given again in the NT in Romans 13. How many times does God have to give it before we figure he means what he says?



The very fact that you use force to stop him means you have already judged him. You just didn't pass sentence.

I judged the sin, but did not pass a judgement on the man to death.

If I kill that man then he doesn't have a chance to come to Jesus and find God.

theleast
Jun 29th 2008, 07:51 PM
That would require that you judge them guilty of breaking the law.

Again that would be judging the sin, not the man.

theleast
Jun 29th 2008, 07:52 PM
Killing and murder are two completely different things. As a citizen of God's kingdom, I work no ill to my neighbor. However, as a citizens of God's kingdom, when he pronounces that one should die, to Noah, to Moses, and to us in Romans 13, then perhaps we should also be obedient there.

So how does God communicate to you who should die?

theleast
Jun 29th 2008, 07:53 PM
I am not saying God supports man's death penalty. I am saying man should support God's death penalty. For instance, God said "thou shalt not steal". Man too has this in his laws. It is not man's law! It's God's law. God said that if man murdered, then man will shed that man's blood. That's not man's law. That's God's law.

That's the point of the OP. God was the one who instituted the death penalty. Not man. God started it and declared it. Not man. Man started murder.

So just as we teach "Thou shalt not murder" and "thou shalt not steal" so should we speak of the death penalty. Though it is not part of the 10 commandments, it was still given to man to carry out.

O.K. so did God pass the law allowing abortion in the United States then?

Is abortion murder?

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 09:10 PM
Again that would be judging the sin, not the man.

Correct. And that is all we can do. We judge the sin, and allow government to implement God's given punishment for murder. Though for spiritual sins, we do not do so. No one can judge a man's heart as God does. But we do judge the act. When a man is guilty of murder, we judge it and do as the Lord commanded Noah, Moses and Government. If government wants to show mercy, that is fine as God often shows mercy. But I can find no scripture where God commands government to show mercy.

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 09:11 PM
O.K. so did God pass the law allowing abortion in the United States then?

Nope. That was man that did that and it was wrong.


Is abortion murder?

IMO, it is.

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 09:13 PM
Very insightful post, to say the least. But war does not always equals justice. I also don't believe in the death penalty. This is why we have jails and rehabilitation centers. God gives life. Men has no right to take it away, under any circumtance. God bless.

God gave man the right and responsibility to take life when he commanded Noah concerning the death penalty. We can follow that command into the Law of Moses, right up to the NT in Romans 13.

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 09:17 PM
God also stated for us to "love one another." Again Mark - we can't just take one aspect of the Word - and assume that God's rationale applies equally to that of man's in all situations. If that were the case, no one would be saved - as all have disobeyed Christ's command of "loving one another" at some point, and thus are not worthy of receiving life.

That's the whole point of the thread Stephen. We can't just take the concept of "love" and say that's all there is. God is love. But he is also just. He is also severe.


Should the government now enforce the death penalty to a man based on the fact that the man hasn't followed this command? I don't think so.not based on disobedience, but rather based on murder. The death penalty for murder can be found before the law of Moses, in the law of Moses and in the NT.

I am beginning to understand your objective. It seems you are against the death penalty completely. Is that so?


He also stated for us to "forgive and we ourselves will be forgiven" and to be "merciful and we will receive mercy." Should not man's government also enforce these principles as well? I do not believe government is to enforce these principles. Where did God command government to do so? Where did he say man was to enforce those things? Do you advocate forgiving all prisoners and releasing them to the general population?


That being said, I do appreciate our discussion - and I hope I haven't said anything that has offended you during it. I don't agree with you on this issue, but I thank you once again for posting your stance on it, as I also thank others for their input.I am beginning to realize that you do not agree with me. That's why I kept pushing. What do you do with Romans 13? Or the command given to Noah? The death penalty has been in place for a long, long time.

Do you disagree that God gave man the death penalty as a way to keep evil in check?

jewel4Christ
Jun 29th 2008, 09:44 PM
I judged the sin, but did not pass a judgement on the man to death.

If I kill that man then he doesn't have a chance to come to Jesus and find God.

Amen.

peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 09:47 PM
If I kill that man then he doesn't have a chance to come to Jesus and find God.


Romans 1 teaches differently, IMO. It says all men are without excuse because God has made himself known to them.

EarlyCall
Jun 29th 2008, 09:52 PM
Very insightful post, to say the least. But war does not always equals justice. I also don't believe in the death penalty. This is why we have jails and rehabilitation centers. God gives life. Men has no right to take it away, under any circumtance. God bless.

I assume you mean now? Surely you have read the OT. So you must mean that you think this is so now. I'll assume that.

Can you show me the verse, since no one else can, that God said man is no longer to put anyone to death for any reason?

That would be great.

theleast
Jun 29th 2008, 10:29 PM
Nope. That was man that did that and it was wrong.

IMO, it is.

So if the United States passes a law, effectively allowing murder of human life, how can you respect any of the other laws of that country?

Do you think God then thinks of the U.S. as a righteous country, leading them into war?

Do you think God respects the death penalty of a state that allows murder of children?

theleast
Jun 29th 2008, 10:33 PM
I assume you mean now? Surely you have read the OT. So you must mean that you think this is so now. I'll assume that.

Can you show me the verse, since no one else can, that God said man is no longer to put anyone to death for any reason?

That would be great.

On the flipside, can you show me in Christs words or the words of the apostles with the Holy Spirit that we should judge a man with a judgement onto death?

jewel4Christ
Jun 29th 2008, 11:40 PM
Romans 1 teaches differently, IMO. It says all men are without excuse because God has made himself known to them.

Just curious, Mark.

Does that verse, in your opinion, speak to how long that applies to all mankind?

For example, if you would of died before you heard the call, would you of been cast into hell?

...or, do you believe that God allowed you to go your own way long enough to lead you to repentance?

Btw, if God snuffed you out the day before you repented, would you also likewise of perished to hell, because you was a day late and dollar short, as the saying goes?

You see, the reason I ask this because you are building a doctrine based on an assumption, that God does not have a certain timeframe for us all .

I don't see that scriptural, I believe as the word states that God is LONGSUFFERING, not willing that any should perish, yet if someone takes 'em out, I guess that is just their tuff luck< eh?


peaceandlove,

janet

davidandme
Jun 30th 2008, 04:05 AM
God gave man the right and responsibility to take life when he commanded Noah concerning the death penalty. We can follow that command into the Law of Moses, right up to the NT in Romans 13.
This was necessary back them. I don't think is necessary today. God bless.

Brother Mark
Jun 30th 2008, 04:06 AM
This was necessary back them. I don't think is necessary today. God bless.

Romans 13 is not necessary today? Was it necessary when only Noah and his family were alive? For they were all believers, yet God gave it to them.

davidandme
Jun 30th 2008, 04:11 AM
I assume you mean now? Surely you have read the OT. So you must mean that you think this is so now. I'll assume that.

Can you show me the verse, since no one else can, that God said man is no longer to put anyone to death for any reason?

That would be great.
Yes, I mean today. Moses commandments for the most part were written for people more than 2000 year ago, there were no police, and no jails. It was a matter of survivor. I can't imagine Jesus killing some one. Not even back them. What do you gain by killing someone specially in today's world? Revenche?

Brother Mark
Jun 30th 2008, 04:13 AM
Just curious, Mark.

Does that verse, in your opinion, speak to how long that applies to all mankind?

For example, if you would of died before you heard the call, would you of been cast into hell?

God says, he who has ears to hear, let him hear. Not all have ears to hear because their hearts are hard. In hardening their hearts, they reject the truth God has placed within them. He put the truth inside them Janet. Ecclesiastes says that eternity is in the heart of man. So for man to die and go to hell, he has to reject the inner witness God placed inside of him and reject the witness of nature that is outside of him.



...or, do you believe that God allowed you to go your own way long enough to lead you to repentance?

Btw, if God snuffed you out the day before you repented, would you also likewise of perished to hell, because you was a day late and dollar short, as the saying goes?

God is just in all things. It's not about timing. He could have spared Sodom and they would have repented in Jesus time. But he destroyed them anyway.


You see, the reason I ask this because you are building a doctrine based on an assumption, that God does not have a certain timeframe for us all .

Scripture says "today is the day of salvation".


I don't see that scriptural, I believe as the word states that God is LONGSUFFERING, not willing that any should perish, yet if someone takes 'em out, I guess that is just their tuff luck< eh?

He is long suffering! Else he would have destroyed the earth long ago. His mercy is renewed every day. God gave man the command for the death penalty. If he was concerned one bit about a murder being killed to early, he would have never given the command to kill the murderer.

When one knows he is about to die, he may be more likely to repent. Certainly, 50% of those that died with Jesus repented. Nothing anywhere like that number repented in Israel. Now, given the small sample size, I would never say that was a legitimate statistic. But you might be surprised at how interested people are in the afterlife when they know their number is up. An impending death has a way of making a man think about eternity in a way a life sentence won't.

davidandme
Jun 30th 2008, 04:14 AM
Romans 13 is not necessary today? Was it necessary when only Noah and his family were alive? For they were all believers, yet God gave it to them.
Please understand the context of what and why it is been written. Killing for justice is really revenche in today's world.

Brother Mark
Jun 30th 2008, 04:15 AM
On the flipside, can you show me in Christs words or the words of the apostles with the Holy Spirit that we should judge a man with a judgement onto death?

Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are the same and God commanded often in the OT about when to kill a man. So we know Jesus commanded it if God commanded it too.

But since you want NT, Paul the apostle wrote Romans 13 and we see it there.

As for judging a man's heart, or judging him from the pulpit, we don't do that. The church judges those that are in the church. But government is to judge the action of all and implement the death penalty, as God commanded, if necessary.

Brother Mark
Jun 30th 2008, 04:18 AM
Please understand the context of what and why it is been written. Killing for justice is really revenche in today's world.

Says who? The context of what was written in Noah's day was simply to 8 saved souls. Who among them would murder? None of them did. But God gave the command to them anyway. Why? Because he knew the heart of man and where it would lead.

The context is God gave the death penalty to Noah. He gave it Moses. He gave it to government in Romans 13. It's been given pre-Law of Moses which is the old covenant. It was given in the law of Moses. And it was given in the new covenant. I think it still applicable.

There is far more scriptural precedent for the death penalty than prisons.

Brother Mark
Jun 30th 2008, 04:19 AM
So if the United States passes a law, effectively allowing murder of human life, how can you respect any of the other laws of that country?

Do you think God then thinks of the U.S. as a righteous country, leading them into war?

Do you think God respects the death penalty of a state that allows murder of children?

Did Roman law do all that was correct? No. Did Jesus respect Roman law? Yes.

I never said anything about the US being a righteous country. Do I think God leads countries into war? Absolutely! He did so before and he will do so again.

Does God respect the death penalty in a country that allows murder? The death penalty is good even if the other laws are bad. Perhaps God would prefer that government get rid of all laws such as "Thou shalt not steal" and "thou shalt not bear false witness" because of other evil that occurs within that governments jurisdiction. Of course he doesn't wish that! On the contrary. Let's stop the baby killing and keep the death penalty.

Brother Mark
Jun 30th 2008, 04:24 AM
Please understand the context of what and why it is been written. Killing for justice is really revenche in today's world.

No it's not. Some may take it that way and that would be wrong in their heart. The appropriate reason for the death penalty is because God said to to do it. If someone has wrong motives, then they should definitely repent of it! But wrong motives of some are no excuse to ignore the command of God for the rest of us.

jewel4Christ
Jun 30th 2008, 04:31 AM
God says, he who has ears to hear, let him hear. Not all have ears to hear because their hearts are hard. In hardening their hearts, they reject the truth God has placed within them. He put the truth inside them Janet. Ecclesiastes says that eternity is in the heart of man. So for man to die and go to hell, he has to reject the inner witness God placed inside of him and reject the witness of nature that is outside of him.




God is just in all things. It's not about timing. He could have spared Sodom and they would have repented in Jesus time. But he destroyed them anyway.



Scripture says "today is the day of salvation".



He is long suffering! Else he would have destroyed the earth long ago. His mercy is renewed every day. God gave man the command for the death penalty. If he was concerned one bit about a murder being killed to early, he would have never given the command to kill the murderer.

When one knows he is about to die, he may be more likely to repent. Certainly, 50% of those that died with Jesus repented. Nothing anywhere like that number repented in Israel. Now, given the small sample size, I would never say that was a legitimate statistic. But you might be surprised at how interested people are in the afterlife when they know their number is up. An impending death has a way of making a man think about eternity in a way a life sentence won't.

I was not speaking as to someone whom would KNOW their time was up, I would agree with you on that...I was asking you that IF you had died before the Lord had led you to repentance, as in like maybe the day before, would you have then went to hell anyway?

I don't believe God reaps where He has not sown...but, that is just me...;)

In other words, I believe that God has a specific timeframe for every human, and it might not even be the same for all men.

God knows the hearts, and we don't....and, we of ourselves/flesh could not even begin to judge that one...in mho.

I don't see that the scripture you quoted speaks to any given timeframe. The bible says it is the goodness of God that leads one to repentance, and IF God has not sowed that goodness to a man, thereby he would not reap there.

I am not saying that a man can be saved, AFTER that has occurred, and, he has rejected it. I am saying that it must be in God's timing...so, if you would of died the day before your alotted time to bring you to repentance, are you saying you would of automatically went to hell?

...and, for that matter, what if it was only five minutes, and you were hit by a train?

In my perspective, God takes all things into account...and, even though men like to think they are God, they are way off...from that, and Jesus even warned about men thinking they had that ability...

I think in the judgement, we will all find out that what we perceive to be facts, might of come from our own judgements, instead of from God's. His ways are not our ways....and, the bible does not teach that we can fully have the MIND of Christ in this age.

We could look at those verses if you like.....


peaceandlove,

janet

theleast
Jun 30th 2008, 12:18 PM
Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are the same and God commanded often in the OT about when to kill a man. So we know Jesus commanded it if God commanded it too.

But since you want NT, Paul the apostle wrote Romans 13 and we see it there.

As for judging a man's heart, or judging him from the pulpit, we don't do that. The church judges those that are in the church. But government is to judge the action of all and implement the death penalty, as God commanded, if necessary.

Nowhere in Romans 13 does it say to execute the death penalty or start wars.

theleast
Jun 30th 2008, 12:20 PM
Did Roman law do all that was correct? No. Did Jesus respect Roman law? Yes.

I never said anything about the US being a righteous country. Do I think God leads countries into war? Absolutely! He did so before and he will do so again.

Does God respect the death penalty in a country that allows murder? The death penalty is good even if the other laws are bad. Perhaps God would prefer that government get rid of all laws such as "Thou shalt not steal" and "thou shalt not bear false witness" because of other evil that occurs within that governments jurisdiction. Of course he doesn't wish that! On the contrary. Let's stop the baby killing and keep the death penalty.

Where does it say Jesus respected Roman law? He said to follow the law. Respecting the law and following it are two different things.

Friend of I AM
Jun 30th 2008, 01:40 PM
That's the whole point of the thread Stephen. We can't just take the concept of "love" and say that's all there is. God is love. But he is also just. He is also severe.

not based on disobedience, but rather based on murder. The death penalty for murder can be found before the law of Moses, in the law of Moses and in the NT.

I am beginning to understand your objective. It seems you are against the death penalty completely. Is that so?

I do not believe government is to enforce these principles. Where did God command government to do so? Where did he say man was to enforce those things? Do you advocate forgiving all prisoners and releasing them to the general population?

I am beginning to realize that you do not agree with me. That's why I kept pushing. What do you do with Romans 13? Or the command given to Noah? The death penalty has been in place for a long, long time.

Do you disagree that God gave man the death penalty as a way to keep evil in check?

Brother Mark, I'm against men stating that what the government does, and how it administers it's laws are synonmous and applicable with how God enacts his will. Sometimes men do things in accordance with God's will using God's laws, and sometimes they do not. Case in point, the Pharisees themselves were keepers of God's laws, and they used God's own laws to convict and kill an innocent man(Christ Jesus) who is/was God in the flesh!

We can't take everything that is done by God in the bible, and automatically apply it to why a government is justified to act a certain way. If this were the case, nations that killed God's saints who were acting against mens laws and preaching the gospel - as well as those same nations of people that allowed for the killing of Christ, wouldn't be held accountable or contemptable by God in the days of judgement.(We see that Israel is held accountable for the death of Christ, and the Gentiles are grafted in as a result of Israel killiing their annointed one)

Jesus's teachings are not based on the rules of men. True, men do base many of their teachings on God's law, but that doesn't in effect mean that God's laws are in essence always used justifiably when utilized by governments made by men.

We need to be careful, on both ends whether it be from a "mercy" perspective, or from a "judgement" perspective on how we view God's rationale, and's it's applicability to the rules/and ordinances of men. His ways are not are ways, and his thoughts are not our thoughts. That being said, I don't see the necessity of further going back and forth with you on this issue. God bless in Christ. Stephen

davidandme
Jun 30th 2008, 01:56 PM
No it's not. Some may take it that way and that would be wrong in their heart. The appropriate reason for the death penalty is because God said to to do it. If someone has wrong motives, then they should definitely repent of it! But wrong motives of some are no excuse to ignore the command of God for the rest of us.
Please stop and think why that command was given. Much of the time was for self defense. To make sure they didn't do it again. Today we have a sophisticated justice system and police. If a person is killed for whatever reason, then you are automaticly taken away any future chance of repentence and possible even salvation. Besides what is a bigger punishment? Put someone in Jail for a long time or just kill him with one bullet? If you kill a person, the people that really suffer are the family members not the person that have been killed. God bless.

weighed
Jun 30th 2008, 10:28 PM
Where does it say Jesus respected Roman law? He said to follow the law. Respecting the law and following it are two different things.

good point

Lk 13:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

When the authority is anti-Christ, like when they force us to go to war, we need to follow Jesus' example and call them foxes.

weighed
Jun 30th 2008, 11:10 PM
Can you show me the verse, since no one else can, that God said man is no longer to put anyone to death for any reason?

That would be great.[/quote]

A very important point needs to be understood.
1]God wrote commands for us, not for Himself.He can Kill and make war(and He doesn't even need our sily little bombs, His power far superseeds our flimsy strengh) .If we are obedient, we cannot.
2]He cannot sin.We can.
3]Whatever He decides for Himself is always 100% right.Whatever we decide is flawed by our fallen nature.

We need His commands to guide us!

in answer to the quote above:
In every New Testament quote, we can see how we as Christians are meant to respond.

If one spends time reading 1 Cor 13, and
Jesus words of loving every one all the time, bad people, good people, friends and enemies, no where will we find love ever harming or wounding another in anyway.

It's all over the N.T.

davidandme
Jul 1st 2008, 12:06 AM
Where does it say Jesus respected Roman law? He said to follow the law. Respecting the law and following it are two different things.
How can you respect any law and not follow it?

theleast
Jul 1st 2008, 12:45 AM
How can you respect any law and not follow it?

You can follow a law and still know that it is a bad law.

Brother Mark
Jul 1st 2008, 12:51 AM
I was not speaking as to someone whom would KNOW their time was up, I would agree with you on that...I was asking you that IF you had died before the Lord had led you to repentance, as in like maybe the day before, would you have then went to hell anyway?

I don't believe God reaps where He has not sown...but, that is just me...;)

Romans 1 and Ecclesiastes teaches God has sown in all men.

jewel4Christ
Jul 1st 2008, 01:14 AM
Romans 1 and Ecclesiastes teaches God has sown in all men.

Hi Mark,

I don't particularly interpret those verses as God has "sown" in all men.

If that were true, there would be no reason for Jesus to correct the evil servant that thought He did.

Jesus told him, He did not reap where He had not sown.

I believe the verses you are referring to speaks to how God does place in man an ability to SEEK God, but, as for sowing the truth in all men, nope.

peaceandlove,

janet

Friend of I AM
Jul 1st 2008, 01:46 PM
Romans 1 and Ecclesiastes teaches God has sown in all men.

And in all men who are of God, their should be sown a heart of mercy. Remember, the wisdom from above is first impartial, peaceful, and doesn't try to find fault or condemn anyone. As we know that only God/Christ has the right to judge/condemn. Christ himself didn't come into this world to condemn, he came to save it. Why then do brothers and sisters in Christ still find ways to enact judgement upon one another? We should be slow to take offense, and not fight as the world fights - so quick to shed blood for any minor offense it feels it has received against it.

So we are not to be of the world, we are to be of God. When we are of God, and we've experienced the pain of loss, the pain that comes along with being hurt, despised, and rejected - ideally, Love should motivate us not to want to impose those same feelings upon anyone, even though we ourselves have experienced those things. Love seeks not its own, and cares less about itself than it does about others. If more of man's governments, people, etc were to follow Christ's selfless sacrafice - and his simple command of "love one another" there wouldn't be any wars, nor would there be a need for the death penalty.

Christ's kingdom of love was started with Peter, and is beginning to reach it's fullness in this day and age. Hopefully in this age of war and death that we live in, we will all be able to see his kingdom in it's full glory and fruition, as well as be a part of it.

In Christ,

Stephen

Brother Mark
Jul 1st 2008, 02:10 PM
Hi Mark,

I don't particularly interpret those verses as God has "sown" in all men.

If that were true, there would be no reason for Jesus to correct the evil servant that thought He did.

Jesus told him, He did not reap where He had not sown.

I believe the verses you are referring to speaks to how God does place in man an ability to SEEK God, but, as for sowing the truth in all men, nope.

No one can come to Jesus unless God first draws them. If they are seeking Him, it is because he is drawing them.

And Jesus himself said "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me".

God has made himself known through truth he has placed within man and through his creation.

Brother Mark
Jul 1st 2008, 02:14 PM
And in all men who are of God, their should be sown a heart of mercy. Remember, the wisdom from above is first impartial, peaceful, and doesn't try to find fault or condemn anyone. As we know that only God/Christ has the right to judge/condemn. Christ himself didn't come into this world to condemn, he came to save it. Why then do brothers and sisters in Christ still find ways to enact judgement upon one another? We should be slow to take offense, and not fight as the world fights - so quick to shed blood for any minor offense it feels it has received against it.

So we are not to be of the world, we are to be of God. When we are of God, and we've experienced the pain of loss, the pain that comes along with being hurt, despised, and rejected - ideally, Love should motivate us not to want to impose those same feelings upon anyone, even though we ourselves have experienced those things. Love seeks not its own, and cares less about itself than it does about others. If more of man's governments, people, etc were to follow Christ's selfless sacrafice - and his simple command of "love one another" there wouldn't be any wars, nor would there be a need for the death penalty.

Christ's kingdom of love was started with Peter, and is beginning to reach it's fullness in this day and age. Hopefully in this age of war and death that we live in, we will all be able to see his kingdom in it's full glory and fruition, as well as be a part of it.

In Christ,

Stephen

Stephen, we can try with all our mights to wish God to be only love. He is Love. There is no doubt about that. That is clear. However, God did not give the death penalty to a world full of loving human beings. If all followed the law, there would be no need for a law. That is also taught in scriptures. But we have a law anyway. Why? Because man is evil. IF all were saved and fully sanctified, we could get rid of all the law. But that won't happen until all if fulfilled.

The present day we live in is full of evil men. That is why God gave the death penalty. He gave man the responsibility to keep murderous men in check. We can discuss that "If man were pure" stuff till the cows come home. But, they're not pure.

As for judging, that all depends on what you mean. Paul taught in 1 Cor. 5 that we are to judge those inside the church. In Romans 13 we are taught that government does judge those guilty of breaking the law. What we are to avoid is judging the heart for we do not know. But judging actions is something that God gave us the responsibility to do.

jewel4Christ
Jul 1st 2008, 03:36 PM
No one can come to Jesus unless God first draws them. If they are seeking Him, it is because he is drawing them.

And Jesus himself said "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me".

God has made himself known through truth he has placed within man and through his creation.

I agree this side of the new covenant.

The day of salvation has come.

peaceandlove,

Janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 1st 2008, 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Friend of I AM http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1692965#post1692965)
And in all men who are of God, their should be sown a heart of mercy. Remember, the wisdom from above is first impartial, peaceful, and doesn't try to find fault or condemn anyone. As we know that only God/Christ has the right to judge/condemn. Christ himself didn't come into this world to condemn, he came to save it. Why then do brothers and sisters in Christ still find ways to enact judgement upon one another? We should be slow to take offense, and not fight as the world fights - so quick to shed blood for any minor offense it feels it has received against it.

So we are not to be of the world, we are to be of God. When we are of God, and we've experienced the pain of loss, the pain that comes along with being hurt, despised, and rejected - ideally, Love should motivate us not to want to impose those same feelings upon anyone, even though we ourselves have experienced those things. Love seeks not its own, and cares less about itself than it does about others. If more of man's governments, people, etc were to follow Christ's selfless sacrafice - and his simple command of "love one another" there wouldn't be any wars, nor would there be a need for the death penalty.

Christ's kingdom of love was started with Peter, and is beginning to reach it's fullness in this day and age. Hopefully in this age of war and death that we live in, we will all be able to see his kingdom in it's full glory and fruition, as well as be a part of it.

In Christ,

Stephen


I agree.

In mho, we need to be able to separate the law of love from the law of sin and death...(old covenant law, that the bible call's the "letter".)

Christians are under a new form of law, and we are to have our will's submitted to it, and, serve in NEWNess of the spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter, as the word of God states.

I do believe that the world, is still bound by the letter, and today, christians have become confused, because the two have been mixed.

peaceandlove,

janet

Brother Mark
Jul 1st 2008, 04:03 PM
I agree.

In mho, we need to be able to separate the law of love from the law of sin and death...(old covenant law, that the bible call's the "letter".)

Christians are under a new form of law, and we are to have our will's submitted to it, and, serve in NEWNess of the spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter, as the word of God states.

I do believe that the world, is still bound by the letter, and today, christians have become confused, because the two have been mixed.

Indeed we do serve in newness of Spirit and not in oldness of letter. Yet, that doesn't change what Romans 13 speaks about. The world is an attitude not a government.

weighed
Jul 1st 2008, 05:54 PM
Indeed we do serve in newness of Spirit and not in oldness of letter. Yet, that doesn't change what Romans 13 speaks about. The world is an attitude not a government.
Rom (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8)
13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

If you say you serve in the newness of spirit, then yes, please follow what it says in the above passage, Rom 13:8

and not killing in the flesh, the two are opposed to each other.
The law of the flesh is to kill.
The law of the spirit is to love.Rom 13:8

weighed
Jul 1st 2008, 06:14 PM
Ro 8:6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+8:6&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

ProDeo
Jul 1st 2008, 06:32 PM
The death penalty is not murder.

When the Romans nailed our Lord to the cross was that killing or murder?

Ed

jewel4Christ
Jul 1st 2008, 06:47 PM
Indeed we do serve in newness of Spirit and not in oldness of letter. Yet, that doesn't change what Romans 13 speaks about. The world is an attitude not a government.

Newness of spirit has love enlarged...(made fuller)

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 1st 2008, 06:49 PM
Ro 8:6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+8:6&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Yep, and we are all carnal still, it is a growth process, overcoming day by day...having your mind renewed, as you grow in grace and in knowledge of His ways.

peaceandlove,

janet

weighed
Jul 1st 2008, 08:26 PM
And in all men who are of God, their should be sown a heart of mercy. Remember, the wisdom from above is first impartial, peaceful, and doesn't try to find fault or condemn anyone. As we know that only God/Christ has the right to judge/condemn. Christ himself didn't come into this world to condemn, he came to save it. Why then do brothers and sisters in Christ still find ways to enact judgement upon one another? We should be slow to take offense, and not fight as the world fights - so quick to shed blood for any minor offense it feels it has received against it.

So we are not to be of the world, we are to be of God. When we are of God, and we've experienced the pain of loss, the pain that comes along with being hurt, despised, and rejected - ideally, Love should motivate us not to want to impose those same feelings upon anyone, even though we ourselves have experienced those things. Love seeks not its own, and cares less about itself than it does about others. If more of man's governments, people, etc were to follow Christ's selfless sacrafice - and his simple command of "love one another" there wouldn't be any wars, nor would there be a need for the death penalty.

Christ's kingdom of love was started with Peter, and is beginning to reach it's fullness in this day and age. Hopefully in this age of war and death that we live in, we will all be able to see his kingdom in it's full glory and fruition, as well as be a part of it.

In Christ,

Stephen

Absolutely Lovely!
If we keep such posts up, we may see repentance.

weighed
Jul 1st 2008, 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by Brother Mark http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1692993#post1692993)
No one can come to Jesus unless God first draws them. If they are seeking Him, it is because he is drawing them.

And Jesus himself said "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me".

Jesus was referring to Him being lifted up on the cross.

weighed
Jul 1st 2008, 08:33 PM
And you are pretending reality doesn't exist and avoiding the hard questions. Terribly transparent you know.

Odd, but God has been dealing with the world and the flesh for a very long time. I don't see Him pretending otherwise.

Regardless, I think you could not address the matter well and so you avoided it. Sorry, but that is what it looks like to me. If you want to pretend we should have no justice system and that by God's directive in the NT, then so be it. I wont' waste my time with that. You want to argue your position but you won't address the hard questions put to you. I don't play with people like that.

This is harsh EarlyCall.
We need to display. the fruit of the spirit in our posts.
The person you are answering has some wonderful stuff to offer.

ProDeo
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:57 AM
The present day we live in is full of evil men. That is why God gave the death penalty.

1) While I understand your Biblical reasoning my understanding of Scripture is that the moment our Lord spoke: An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say to you... the death penalty was a past issue. Whole Matt 5 is about mercy and the death penalty as currently practised in the US and other countries as well has an unacceptable high volume of an eye for an eye attitude in it, contrary to Matt 5.

2) Also our justice systems are not without failure. Many innocents are imprisoned. And as we know from experience many innocents have been killed by the death penalty. No civilized country can afford the risk of killing innocents, certainly not a country that has the motto: In God we trust. Just lock them up for life to protect society, that's already a severe punishment and it gives them a chance to repent.

3) I am repeating my question, when the Romans nailed our Lord to the cross was that the government Sword Romans 13:4 speaks of or just brutal murdering? I am sure you understand the implications of the question.

Ed

theleast
Jul 2nd 2008, 12:42 PM
Stephen, we can try with all our mights to wish God to be only love. He is Love. There is no doubt about that. That is clear. However, God did not give the death penalty to a world full of loving human beings. If all followed the law, there would be no need for a law. That is also taught in scriptures. But we have a law anyway. Why? Because man is evil. IF all were saved and fully sanctified, we could get rid of all the law. But that won't happen until all if fulfilled.

The present day we live in is full of evil men. That is why God gave the death penalty. He gave man the responsibility to keep murderous men in check. We can discuss that "If man were pure" stuff till the cows come home. But, they're not pure.

As for judging, that all depends on what you mean. Paul taught in 1 Cor. 5 that we are to judge those inside the church. In Romans 13 we are taught that government does judge those guilty of breaking the law. What we are to avoid is judging the heart for we do not know. But judging actions is something that God gave us the responsibility to do.

Once again you avoid the tough question.

Where in Romans 13 does it say to render a judgement unto death? Where in Romans 13 does it say to start wars with your neighbor?

The war of the Christian is a war of powers and principalities. A war of the spirit. And yes our spirit also wars with our flesh.

When Christs disciple smote the ear off of the centurion Christ rebuked the disciple and healed the centurion, depsite the fact that the centurion was escorting Christ to death.

There is no righteous nation today, and there is no righteous law, becuase the law itself is subject to the corruption of men.

Christ is the only law we need. These are his two commandments.

Love God above all else, and love your neighbor as yourself.