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Gift of God
Jun 27th 2008, 07:24 PM
Hebrews 10:1, "For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect."

10:10, "By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

10:14, "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."

10:28-31, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

In our first scripture, Hebrews 10:1, we see that the law has power to make nothing perfect. This is in contrast to the blood of Jesus, which does have power to make perfect. In Hebrews 10:10 we see that all of us who are in Christ have been sanctified by the offering of Jesus Christ once for all. Therefore if you have not been sanctified you are not in Christ. In Hebrews 10:14 we see that He has perfected forever those who are sanctified. The NKJV translation of this, saying that He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified is unfortiunate because if you read it apart from its context you will come to the wrong conclusion. The context says we have been sanctified. The NKJV grants perfection to those who are being sanctified. Now granted, 2 Corinthians 3:18 does seem to make a case for gradual sanctification, but I contend that when true sanctification comes it will be total and complete. "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely: and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blamelesss at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:23) Therefore I say to you that the OKJV is more accurate by saying, "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified."

If therefore our sanctification is complete and we are perfected forever, we will no longer be under bondage to sin, even as 1 John 3:5-9 also says (esp. v. 9).

Consider that the very next passage in our text warns us against sinning willfully against the Lord, and that if we do so there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. This is heavy in one interpretation and less heavy in another.

In one interpretation of this, the sacrifice for sins being spoken of is animal sacrifices, since in context, the author of Hebrews speaks of how animal sacrifices were done away with when Jesus died on the Cross. This allows for the sacrifice of Jesus to remain for us even if we do sin willfully against God.

The second interpretation is heavier, which says that because the sacrifice of Jesus is mentioned as a sacrifice and as an offering in and of itself, therefore not even the sacrifice of Jesus remains for you if you sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth. This is backed up by the second verse in the passage, which says, "(there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins) but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." This seems to me to be saying that once you sin willfully, if you know the truth, there is no sacrifice for sins left (not even the sacrifice of Jesus) because all that is left is a certain fearful expectation of judgment.

However, I believe that it is spoken of in this way so that those who read will understand the severity of willful sin. If it is not severe (and it is), then the sacrifice of Jesus avails even if we continue in willfil sin, because the only sacrifice that has been done away is the animal sacrifices of the Old Testament.

I want to take the middle ground and say that if a person repents and stops practicing willful sin, the sacrifice of Jesus will again avail for him as it did before. Galatians 6:1, James 5:19-20, and Romans 11:23 seem to substantiate this. The moment you practice willful sin against the Lord, therefore, you are not then in His grace but have come out from under it.

It is His word that makes us fit for heaven. At the judgment or at our death God is not going to suddenly change the character of our soul so that we will be fit for heaven. Granted, He will change our bodies so that we will have glorified bodies, but He is only going to do this for those who have resisted temptation in this life. The crown of life is not a literal crown that will be put on our head among other crowns, but it represents the life that you have in Christ. James 1:12 says, "Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him."

Therefore I say to you that if you want to have life, resist temptation.

1 John 1:9 says that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins ad to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Therefore if you have truly confessed your sins why are you not cleansed from the practice of sin? 1 John 3:5-9 states clearly that those who are born of God cannot sin because they are abiding in Christ. Therefore if you abide in Christ you will not sin. It is very black and white, and it is complicated by people who want to make an excuse for their sin. "But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." (2 Corinthians 11:3) When Eve was deceived she was tempted into sin. Keep it simple, at black and white, and you will not be deceived as she was. The wages of sin is death.

Be praying against willful sin in the visible body of Christ.

Phileo and Agape in Christ Jesus,

Geoffrey Primanti

mikebr
Jun 27th 2008, 08:10 PM
If you do something unwillfully is it a sin? Can you site some examples?

Gift of God
Jun 27th 2008, 08:19 PM
If you know the good that you ought to do and don't do it, to you it is sin. In this sense everyone sins, because we don't all of us go out and evangelize every day. But it is not willful sin, because I'm sure that most people aren't even aware of the fact that they are sinning by this.

The sin of prayerlessness may not be willfiul, but it is nevertheless a sin.

Gift of God
Jun 28th 2008, 02:40 AM
************bump***********

mikebr
Jun 28th 2008, 02:46 AM
If you know the good that you ought to do and don't do it, to you it is sin. In this sense everyone sins, because we don't all of us go out and evangelize every day. But it is not willful sin, because I'm sure that most people aren't even aware of the fact that they are sinning by this.

The sin of prayerlessness may not be willfiul, but it is nevertheless a sin.

Is there a sin that you are aware of in you life or are you sinless as far as you know?

Gift of God
Jun 28th 2008, 03:12 AM
If I said I was sinless I would be deceiving myself and the truth would not be in me, but I would give my answer the same as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 4:4.

Hburgpreacher
Jun 29th 2008, 01:57 AM
If the Spirit of God truly lives within you, it should make you sensitive to sin. One of the roles of the Holy Spirit is to convict us of sin and lead us to repentance. We are called to "keep in step with the Spirit." I think that means to obey the Spirit's call to repentance when we become aware of sin in our life.

I think Matthew 7 tells us that there will be many who do not understand repentance and have a false sense of security when it comes to salvation. Grace is not a license to sin, but a safety net for the redeemed who are trying to walk in righteousness.

When we come to Christ, some sins are easy to repent of. However, there are also certain "besetting sins" that are more of a process of dying daily to those deeply ingrained habits and patterns. Sins like alcoholism, drug addiction, sexual addictions often are journeys of sanctification on the way to victory. Sometimes God miraculously delivers folks from such things, but often it's been my experience that it's a process.

Ekeak
Jun 29th 2008, 02:00 AM
This stinks. I've done this many times, and it really, really stinks. Jesus loves me, without mercy. Those two statements are seperated and together at the same time. :B My testimony should be one to set an example for future Christians, don't fall in to fornification, and don't disobey thy father or mother. Case closed.

Gift of God
Jun 29th 2008, 03:51 AM
Dear Hburgpreacher:

1 Corinthians 4:4 says, "For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but he who judges me is the Lord."

Obviously Paul himself was not a true believer, because he was not sensitive to sin.

The born again believer is set free from sin (Romans 6:22). Therefore how is he going to be sensitive to something that is not a part of his life? In others, perhaps, but not in his own life.

John 16:8-9, "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me."

The Holy Spirit convicts people of sin because they don't believe in Christ, not because they do.

Dear Ekeak:

His mercy endures forever, and His mercy changes the heart. Titus 3:5. To say that the doctrine of Hebrews 10 is saying that Jesus loves me but without mercy is sheer nonsense. Of course Jesus loves all of us and has mercy toward all of us. This does not mean that He doesn't require us to live holy, be sure to read Titus 3:5 to see what God's mercy is all about. And Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness no one will see the Lord.

theothersock
Jun 29th 2008, 05:53 AM
He who says he is without sin is a liar.

God is merciful. Does God judge by your works or by your heart?

manichunter
Jun 29th 2008, 05:57 AM
God is not mocked. Whatever sin you sow, you will reap the consequences to various degrees...............

Gift of God
Jun 29th 2008, 09:33 PM
He who says he is without sin is a liar.

God is merciful. Does God judge by your works or by your heart?

There is a difference between saying you are set free from sin (Romans 6:22) and saying you are without sin (1 John 1:8). Otherwise there is a contradiction in scripture.

It has to do with putting sin to death and putting it in remission. if it is dead it has no say over what you do. A cancer that is in remission is still there but is no longer malignant.

In answer to your other question, God judges by your works which reveals your heart (see Revelation 20:12 in its context).

And it is also true that real believers in Christ, who believe in the Father through Christ (1 Peter 1:21) will never be judged by God (John 5:24).

matthew94
Jun 29th 2008, 09:40 PM
Christians shouldn't have willful sins in their lives. By willful sins I refer to pre-meditated sins. In my opinion, pre-meditated sins are evidence of an extremely cold heart toward God. There are other times when someone sins willfully, but it is not pre-meditated. The sin is committed quickly, w/o thinking. This is also very sinful, but not quite the same (even worldly justice recognizes the difference b/w crime and pre-meditated crime). Sins of ignorace are also sinful, but not even on par with spur of the moment willful sins. God deals differently with different categories of sins since He's mostly interested in the hardness/softness of our hearts.

In any case, the solution to sin remains the same: repentance. It doesn't matter if your sin was pre-meditated and willful, spur-of-the-moment and willful, or done in ignorance. Once you become aware of it, you must repent. Repentance is hard for the last group. Harder for the middle group. Hardest for the first group.

Gift of God
Jun 29th 2008, 11:04 PM
Amen, matthew94.

*******bump******

genesisblu
Jun 30th 2008, 05:31 AM
I would like to suggest something for consideration. This passage in context is referring to the willful rejection of Christ, not committing individual sins on a habitual basis. He is warning against apostasy. In v. 28 he states anyone who rejects Moses' law dies (physically) on the testimony of two or three witnesses. v. 29 He says how much worse a punishment do you think the one who has the knowledge of the truth (Jesus) and rejects it is deserving of? Spiritual death. That person has just treated the blood of the Son of God as common (unclean or defiled). When a person knows the truth his conscience testifies, our consciences are cleansed and purified by that blood and when he rejects Christ (truth) he insults the Spirit of Grace. That is a grievously serious sin!

He goes on to say do not do this, do not cast it away because of your suffering because of it or the trials and tribulations we must go through. He says hold on to it, for our reward for doing so will be ours. v. 38 goes on to say the just will live by faith (we will hold onto and not let go of our belief and faith in Jesus), the ones who do let go, "draws back", God will have no pleasure in him. The person who draws back from the knowledge of the gospel and faith will prove his apostasy.

I believe this is what is being referred to in 1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask; and He shall give life to him, to the ones not sinning unto death. There is a sin unto death. I do not say that he should ask about that. When we are in Christ, the sins we can commit are forgiven us, they are not unto death (spiritual) but the sin of apostasy is a sin unto death (spiritual).

And this all again being reiterated in:Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those once having been enlightened, and having tasted of the heavenly gift, and becoming sharers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and tasting the good Word of God, and the works of power of a coming age,
Heb 6:6 and having fallen away, it is impossible for them again to renew to repentance, crucifying again for themselves the Son of God, and putting Him to open shame.
Heb 6:7 (For the earth drinking in the rain often coming upon it, and producing vegetation suitable for those for whom it is also worked, receives blessing from God;
Heb 6:8 "but bearing thorns and thistles," it is deemed unfit and near a curse, of which the end is for burning.) Gen. 3:17, 18
Heb 6:9 But, loved ones, even if we indeed speak so, we have been persuaded better things concerning you, even holding fast salvation.
Heb 6:10 For God is not unjust, to forget your work and the labor of love which you showed to His name, ministering to the saints, and now are ministering.

Gift of God
Jun 30th 2008, 10:53 PM
genesisblu,

the word in Hebrews is, "If anyone sins willfully..."

This is talking about any willful sin, not just the rejection of Jesus, otherwise it would have said, "If anyone rejects Jesus..."

Why do people take scripture and interpret it to mean something other than what it actually says? This is a mystery to me.

Servant89
Jun 30th 2008, 10:53 PM
10:28-31, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

That is a comparison between Old Testament and New Testament. One has the law, the other one has faith and attitude. In the Old Testament all the sin offerings were for sins committed in ignorance (Lev 4 & Lev 5). There are no sacrifices in the OT that can pay for willful sins, only for sins committed in ignorance. The point of that is that no one once they heard the law, can fulfill the law, no one. And we all need a savior.

The law could not justify anyone who sinned willfully (Num 15:29-30). But Acts 13:39 states that the blood of Jesus Christ can justify us from all sins, even the sins that the law could not justify us, and that includes wilfull sins. Peter denied the Lord after he was warned that he was going to do it. That was not done on ignorance, he had full knowledge of right and wrong, but he did it anyway.

But the passage compares the new system without the law has the same seriousness when it comes to our attitude towards the great salvation that we have. How can we escape if we neglect so great salvation?

We are not under the law, stop measuring victory in Christ relative to how well we keep the law !!!

I do not frustrate the grace of God for if righteousness comes by the law, Christ died in vain (Gal 2:21). And those that try to make it to heaven by keeping the law, are fallen from grace (Gal 5:4).

SHALOM

Gift of God
Jul 1st 2008, 02:07 AM
The law could not justify anyone who sinned willfully (Num 15:29-30). But Acts 13:39 states that the blood of Jesus Christ can justify us from all sins, even the sins that the law could not justify us, and that includes wilfull sins.
Yes that includes willful sins. We can be justified from committing willful sins if we stop committing them. If we can continue in willful sin and still be saved then I'm sure God also doesn't mind if we sin when we get to heaven, when we will be in heaven. But God will not allow sin in heaven. Salvation means we are set free from sin (Romans 6:22).

Jesus said, "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3)

I think that with your attitude you may even enter the kingdom of heaven if your faith sanctifies you, but you will be called least in the kingdom of heaven (see Matthew 5:19)


We are not under the law, stop measuring victory in Christ relative to how well we keep the law !!!


What scripture says we are not under the law? The same scripture says, "Sin shall not have dominion over you, because you are not under law but under grace."

The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. I am not saying we are to be saved by keeping the letter of the law, but that salvation itself will surely and most absolutely cause you to keep the spirit of the law.

The letter says, "Do not kill." The spirit of the law in a born again believer is the born again predisposition to not even get angry, thus making it impossible to kill, because the sin is being dealt with at its roots. (see Matthew 5:21-22)

The law is a tutor to lead us to Christ. Even though we are no longer under that tutor, we still abide by his teachings, we have been fully trained by him, otherwise we would still be under him. Sin shall not have dominion over us.

We are no longer slaves of sin (Romans 6:16-22). This is the context of, "you are not under law but under grace."

Anything which is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23) but sin is also the transgression of the law and lawlessness (1 John 3:4).

Therefore law-keeping, or abstention from sin, is a result of salvation, because there is no law that will ever go against the fruit of the Spirit and condemn you for evil if you are living by that fruit (Galatians 5:22), if you are living by the fruit of the Spirit you will not be breaking any existing laws.

If you are born again then the love of God is shed abroad in your heart (Romans 5:5) and the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in you by that love (Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4).

Scubadude
Jul 1st 2008, 10:19 AM
How would you interpret the passage "Jesus grew in wisdom, and in favor with God and man."? There is something in what you are saying that sounds very interesting to me. But, I need to hear more conversation before I have an opinion.

Peace

Scubadude
Jul 1st 2008, 10:28 AM
OK. I had a thought while I was reading again. Would you say that since we have been given a new heart and God's Spirit, that at some point we need to start trusting in that regenerate heart? The opposite of that thought being Christians seem to enjoy talking about how wicked they are, and feign a spiritual victimization because they can't help but be wicked.... back handedly letting themselves off the hook while looking spiritual.

These are rough thoughts right now, but I'll keep reading.

genesisblu
Jul 1st 2008, 03:38 PM
To me it kind of goes hand in hand really. The law of Moses is the OT law, the new law is the law of love. We are not to hold to every 613 OT laws. We are to hold to the new law of love that encompasses the 10 commandments. if you love someone you won't kill them, you won't be jealous, covet them, commit adultery etc. You can't commit those sins if you are loving God and others. We are given new hearts but they aren't perfect obviously or we wouldn't even be able to commit sins. We must grow in our new lives. We aren't deemed unable to sin automatically because we become born again.

The problem I have with teaching this as a "do or be unsaved" passage is that it teaches legalism. The fact is, if you so return to a life of selfishness and evil and ignore the new spirit you have been given, chances are you never really committed your life to Christ. How can you truly devote yourself to having Christ be the new master in your life and not listen to the Holy Spirit that lives within you? The things you once did become very distasteful to you, disgusting even. It actually becomes very difficult to even continue doing the things you once did. But I think it happens little by little not all at once. The Holy Spirit works on you and gives you a feeling of "you should not do that", but you must chose to stop doing it.

If you don't stop, in essence what are you saying? I reject Christ. If you also don't trust in Christ by trusting your forgiveness to the hands of man (a priest say) or return to sacrifices as they were doing at the time of this passage you are again rejecting Christ. He tells them none of this will save them from their sins, it was already done by Christ once for all.

This warning was given at a specific time. It was given according to what was happening then and they were being tempted to the laws of OT for sacrifices to save them from their sins, as some were doing, Judaism. If they chose to do that then they are bound by the OT law and if they keep one then they must keep them all. We don't do that now so it can be a forward warning to us to not stop listening to the Holy Spirit within us that guides us as to what to do.

We don't need the OT laws anymore because the laws have been written on our hearts and minds. We need only to listen. What human has the right to determine when one has sunk so deep in sin that they are in danger of "rejecting Christ"? How many times do they have to commit the sins before they will not be forgiven? How many sins have to be in their lives? (Even one sin becomes willful sin, you are doing it willfully aren't you? Can you unwillfully sin? No, we are willing to do it, we do it by our will not God's will.) We don't know any of that. No one, that is why we are not to judge. But if we see a brother sin we are to gently, lovingly correct and then let the Holy Spirit work on them. If they don't heed the warning from us then we are to leave them to that sin for correction by God (turn them over to Satan that their souls might be saved). Which ultimately may lead to their early physical death (chastisement). We are to leave the discipline to God not us. Not beat them over the head and constantly issuing of condemnation (warnings of you better not sin or you will go to hell). That will only turn someone back away from Christ. Making the feel too unworthy to look back to Christ for the forgiveness they have a right to by having been born again. And resulting in a possible total rejection of Christ again.

So it seems to be saying many things at once but it first has to be put in context in regards to who was being spoken to and what was happening at the time and then how it could apply to us now. Ultimately any way you look it, the end result that is being warned about is the rejection of Christ that would end in your spiritual death. Can you actually sin your way into being unsaved today? We don't really know, only God does. Christ died for all our sins, those who have accepted Christ as their Savior have forgiveness of all sins committed and sins they will commit. If we believe that then you have to believe that you really can't commit enough sins to "unsave yourself", so it seems that this passage can't really be a warning to true Christians , who HAVE forgiveness but as a warning that they will not escape the punishment they will suffer here or early physical death and loss of rewards in heaven but yet still be saved for eternal life. 1Co 3:15 If the work of anyone shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss; but he will be saved, but so as through fire.

If your life becomes so engulfed in sin chances are you won't even care if you can be saved because you will have had to gotten to a point where the very idea of Christ will have very little to no impact on your life, rejecting Christ.

Gift of God
Jul 1st 2008, 09:01 PM
To me it kind of goes hand in hand really. The law of Moses is the OT law, the new law is the law of love. We are not to hold to every 613 OT laws. We are to hold to the new law of love that encompasses the 10 commandments. if you love someone you won't kill them, you won't be jealous, covet them, commit adultery etc. You can't commit those sins if you are loving God and others. We are given new hearts but they aren't perfect obviously or we wouldn't even be able to commit sins. We must grow in our new lives. We aren't deemed unable to sin automatically because we become born again.

Your statement about the 613 laws is contrary to scripture. Jesus said, "For assuredly I say to you, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." What has passed away is the Old Covenant method of expunging sins. We no longer use animal sacrifices, because they pointed to the sacrifice of Jesus.

Consider Psalm 1 and you may see that we are to meditate in all of God's law day and night. Anytime we are drawn away from Christ, we can still go back to out old tutor so he can remind us of where we ought to be, and lead us back to Christ even again. The law is a tutor to lead us to Christ even if we have been born again but are backslidden.

The born again disposition keeps us from committing sin against any of the 613 laws, there is no law against the fruit of the Spirit.

Also 1 John 3:9 makes it clear that as long as you are in a born again state (i.e. abiding in Christ) you cannot sin.


The problem I have with teaching this as a "do or be unsaved" passage is that it teaches legalism.

"Legalism" is not a word found in the Bible, and many people use this word to complain to those who tell them that they ought not to sin. They use it as an excuse for their sin.



The fact is, if you so return to a life of selfishness and evil and ignore the new spirit you have been given, chances are you never really committed your life to Christ.

A very subtle word of the enemy, that he uses to promote the "once saved always saved" doctrine. The problem with that doctrine is that it gives people license to sin just because they have prayed a prayer, and to believe that they will go to heaven no matter what they do. It is possible to lose your salvation, there are too many verses in the Bible that teach this for me to believe it isn't so.



How can you truly devote yourself to having Christ be the new master in your life and not listen to the Holy Spirit that lives within you? The things you once did become very distasteful to you, disgusting even. It actually becomes very difficult to even continue doing the things you once did. But I think it happens little by little not all at once. The Holy Spirit works on you and gives you a feeling of "you should not do that", but you must chose to stop doing it.


Again, this is a subtle word of the enemy. It gives people an excuse to gradually work their way up to true salvation and often they never reach it as a result. True salvation involves entire sanctification, it involves perfect holiness. Granted this can be lost and regained but to be in a state of being born again it must be true of you that you cannot sin (1 John 3:6,9). Now it is true that when we confess certain sins, if we truly confess them and are sanctified from them through repentance, God will bring other deeper sins to light so we can deal with them, and this is a process.


If you don't stop, in essence what are you saying? I reject Christ. If you also don't trust in Christ by trusting your forgiveness to the hands of man (a priest say) or return to sacrifices as they were doing at the time of this passage you are again rejecting Christ. He tells them none of this will save them from their sins, it was already done by Christ once for all.

This is true.




This warning was given at a specific time. It was given according to what was happening then and they were being tempted to the laws of OT for sacrifices to save them from their sins, as some were doing, Judaism. If they chose to do that then they are bound by the OT law and if they keep one then they must keep them all. We don't do that now so it can be a forward warning to us to not stop listening to the Holy Spirit within us that guides us as to what to do.


We don't do what now? Keep the commandments? Live holy? Abstain from sinning? I beg to disagree. If we are truly born again we will do all these things.



We don't need the OT laws anymore because the laws have been written on our hearts and minds.


That's like saying we don't need the blood of Christ because we have already been cleansed from sin. If the laws have been written in our hearts and minds, the only reason we might not need them is because we already have them. But because you have something doesn't mean you don't need it, it just means you don't need it in the sense of needing to get it. You have it but you still need it, if you lost it you would be very unhappy.


We need only to listen. What human has the right to determine when one has sunk so deep in sin that they are in danger of "rejecting Christ"? How many times do they have to commit the sins before they will not be forgiven?


I don't think it's a matter of coming into danger of rejecting Christ. Even as someone in this thread said, willful sin is the same as rejecting Christ. There is no amount of times that a person can commit sin before God will not forgive them, but if they refuse to repent they are still not forgiven.


How many sins have to be in their lives? (Even one sin becomes willful sin, you are doing it willfully aren't you? Can you unwillfully sin? No, we are willing to do it, we do it by our will not God's will.)

Willful sin must be repented of in order to be forgiven, and there is an unwillful sin, othewise the author of Hebrews wouldn't have made the distinction.



We don't know any of that. No one, that is why we are not to judge. But if we see a brother sin we are to gently, lovingly correct and then let the Holy Spirit work on them.


If we see a brother sin a sin which is not unto death, we are to pray for that brother and God will give him life who has not sinned a sin that ius unto death.



If they don't heed the warning from us then we are to leave them to that sin for correction by God (turn them over to Satan that their souls might be saved). Which ultimately may lead to their early physical death (chastisement).


I contend that a person can spiritually die as a result of sin.



We are to leave the discipline to God not us. Not beat them over the head and constantly issuing of condemnation (warnings of you better not sin or you will go to hell).


Why not? It may be the very thing they need to hear in order to bring them to repentance.


That will only turn someone back away from Christ.

Maybe for a season, but the word of God never returns void.


Making the feel too unworthy to look back to Christ for the forgiveness they have a right to by having been born again. And resulting in a possible total rejection of Christ again.


Nobody has a right to forgiveness, it is gift of God that comes not by right, we become children of God by right after repenting and receiving the Lord. Also forgiveness comes as a result of being in the state of being born of God, that is, the state of abiding in Christ.



So it seems to be saying many things at once but it first has to be put in context in regards to who was being spoken to and what was happening at the time and then how it could apply to us now. Ultimately any way you look it, the end result that is being warned about is the rejection of Christ that would end in your spiritual death. Can you actually sin your way into being unsaved today?


Yes.


We don't really know, only God does.

And God reveals through His word that willful sin leads to "a fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." Therefore we know it, too, if we only read the word of God as it is. Why did you contradict this word?



Christ died for all our sins, those who have accepted Christ as their Savior have forgiveness of all sins committed and sins they will commit.

Where in the Bible does it unequivocably say this? It seems to me the Bible teaches that willfjul sins will put a person in hell if they continue in them. And you are sinning by posting such absurdities, even though they are things that have been accepted in Christian communities for quite some time. Yet they are not biblical and will lead someone to willfully sin against the Lord because they read your post instead of scripture.



If we believe that then you have to believe that you really can't commit enough sins to "unsave yourself",

It's not a matter of "enough" sins, but of one, willful sin.



so it seems that this passage can't really be a warning to true Christians , who HAVE forgiveness but as a warning that they will not escape the punishment they will suffer here or early physical death and loss of rewards in heaven but yet still be saved for eternal life.


Verily, verily, I say to you that true Christians who are in a born again state do not commit sin, and cannot. The punishment for willful sinning is "a fearful expectation of judgment, and of fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.", not mere physical death.



1Co 3:15 If the work of anyone shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss; but he will be saved, but so as through fire.


This scripture is quoted out of context, it is talking about dead works being consumed as opposed to living works, it is not talking about sins, although if you repent of all sin those sins will be burned up as well.



If your life becomes so engulfed in sin chances are you won't even care if you can be saved because you will have had to gotten to a point where the very idea of Christ will have very little to no impact on your life, rejecting Christ.


This also is not true. There are those who have tasted the heavenly gift who have fallen into sin but have not fallen away completely, who because of that taste long to come back to Christ. Romans 11:23, Galatians 6:1, and James 5:19-20 all say that they can be restored.

genesisblu
Jul 1st 2008, 09:24 PM
Your statement about the 613 laws is contrary to scripture. Jesus said, "For assuredly I say to you, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." What has passed away is the Old Covenant method of expunging sins. We no longer use animal sacrifices, because they pointed to the sacrifice of Jesus.

Consider Psalm 1 and you may see that we are to meditate in all of God's law day and night. Anytime we are drawn away from Christ, we can still go back to out old tutor so he can remind us of where we ought to be, and lead us back to Christ even again. The law is a tutor to lead us to Christ even if we have been born again but are backslidden.

The born again disposition keeps us from committing sin against any of the 613 laws, there is no law against the fruit of the Spirit.

Also 1 John 3:9 makes it clear that as long as you are in a born again state (i.e. abiding in Christ) you cannot sin.



"Legalism" is not a word found in the Bible, and many people use this word to complain to those who tell them that they ought not to sin. They use it as an excuse for their sin.




A very subtle word of the enemy, that he uses to promote the "once saved always saved" doctrine. The problem with that doctrine is that it gives people license to sin just because they have prayed a prayer, and to believe that they will go to heaven no matter what they do. It is possible to lose your salvation, there are too many verses in the Bible that teach this for me to believe it isn't so.



Again, this is a subtle word of the enemy. It gives people an excuse to gradually work their way up to true salvation and often they never reach it as a result. True salvation involves entire sanctification, it involves perfect holiness. Granted this can be lost and regained but to be in a state of being born again it must be true of you that you cannot sin (1 John 3:6,9). Now it is true that when we confess certain sins, if we truly confess them and are sanctified from them through repentance, God will bring other deeper sins to light so we can deal with them, and this is a process.



This is true.




We don't do what now? Keep the commandments? Live holy? Abstain from sinning? I beg to disagree. If we are truly born again we will do all these things.



That's like saying we don't need the blood of Christ because we have already been cleansed from sin. If the laws have been written in our hearts and minds, the only reason we might not need them is because we already have them. But because you have something doesn't mean you don't need it, it just means you don't need it in the sense of needing to get it. You have it but you still need it, if you lost it you would be very unhappy.



I don't think it's a matter of coming into danger of rejecting Christ. Even as someone in this thread said, willful sin is the same as rejecting Christ. There is no amount of times that a person can commit sin before God will not forgive them, but if they refuse to repent they are still not forgiven.



Willful sin must be repented of in order to be forgiven, and there is an unwillful sin, othewise the author of Hebrews wouldn't have made the distinction.



If we see a brother sin a sin which is not unto death, we are to pray for that brother and God will give him life who has not sinned a sin that ius unto death.



I contend that a person can spiritually die as a result of sin.



Why not? It may be the very thing they need to hear in order to bring them to repentance.



Maybe for a season, but the word of God never returns void.



Nobody has a right to forgiveness, it is gift of God that comes not by right, we become children of God by right after repenting and receiving the Lord. Also forgiveness comes as a result of being in the state of being born of God, that is, the state of abiding in Christ.



Yes.



And God reveals through His word that willful sin leads to "a fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." Therefore we know it, too, if we only read the word of God as it is. Why did you contradict this word?




Where in the Bible does it unequivocably say this? It seems to me the Bible teaches that willfjul sins will put a person in hell if they continue in them. And you are sinning by posting such absurdities, even though they are things that have been accepted in Christian communities for quite some time. Yet they are not biblical and will lead someone to willfully sin against the Lord because they read your post instead of scripture.




It's not a matter of "enough" sins, but of one, willful sin.



Verily, verily, I say to you that true Christians who are in a born again state do not commit sin, and cannot. The punishment for willful sinning is "a fearful expectation of judgment, and of fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.", not mere physical death.



This scripture is quoted out of context, it is talking about dead works being consumed as opposed to living works, it is not talking about sins, although if you repent of all sin those sins will be burned up as well.



This also is not true. There are those who have tasted the heavenly gift who have fallen into sin but have not fallen away completely, who because of that taste long to come back to Christ. Romans 11:23, Galatians 6:1, and James 5:19-20 all say that they can be restored.


You know it would take far too long to dissect everything you said about what I wrote, but I will say this you misunderstood most of what I said, apparently did not even try to get the meaning behind what I was saying, and twisted almost (not everything) I said.

Gift of God
Jul 2nd 2008, 12:59 AM
The things that were sinful about your post I don't think you did intentionally, so I guess it's alright.

But there is a subtlety to some doctrines that are even in the church today, that the devil uses to bring God's children into sin.

I am sorry if I misunderstood what you said, but if I didn't misunderstand some things then I hope that you will take into account the things that I said about those things that I didn't misunderstand.

genesisblu
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:00 AM
I have a very hard time dissecting dissections of posts. So I would go over everything...but I want to be clear on the few things I can remember from your response.

I am not eloquent with words, I do not speak with big college degree words, I am very simple. I don't pretend to be otherwise. I come on here and often feel I have nothing to contribute to discussion because of that but I want to learn so I try. The things I put forth are what I feel the word is speaking to me. It is not based on some "doctrine". I don't even attempt to come off as I know for sure anything I feel scripture is teaching is the absolute truth with no alternative possibilities. I am always open. What scripture speaks to one may speak something different to another. And both can be completely applicable. The things I put forth are like I said before "for consideration" and open for discussion, not attack. I will not go back and forth for the purpose of proving rightness, but to learn what others receive from scriptures and consider those interpretations. I may not ultimately agree with them in the end, will not attempt to persuade someone else that they must believe what I say, and will never judge someone else's salvation. So, I will cut short conversation and not respond if someone persists in doing that to me. I have no problem with people telling me they feel I am incorrect or don't agree with what I feel scripture is saying but I will not accept condemnation or judgment on whether I am saved or not.

That being said, I never believe any scripture gives free reign to sin. Or even to disregard sin. However, I certainly do not believe that we are expected to be perfect. I have not personally found that to be scripturally evident. So, I don't believe any one sin will "send" anyone to hell.

My view of what has been going on since the beginning of creation is about regaining a personal relationship with God not being sent to heaven or hell. It is my view that the result of everything that happens will either result in one regaining a personal relationship with God, being saved and having eternal life with Him in heaven, or in separation from a personal relationship with God, not being saved and being eternally separated from Him in hell. I don't view it as being "sent" to one place or the other.

So, when it comes to sin and warning other regarding that I don't feel it best to threaten them with the possibility of going to hell. I believe that can result in one attempting to not sin for the wrong reason. I explain it in terms of relating to a relationship. As a parent I want my children to obey because they love me and trust that I know what is best for them, not simply to avoid a punishment. So, I don't believe God wants any of us to obey simply to avoid hell.

When I say the OT laws aren't needed, I mean that we don't need to have a book of the laws in front of us checking to see that we are obeying them perfectly, like a checklist. His laws are written on our hearts and minds. However, I do believe some are "not needed" at all. We don't need to offer animal sacrifices, circumcision is no longer required etc. A person can disagree but I don't find any biblical support for disagreement.

I have rambled on for so long now that I can't even remember the other things...I might have to continue on another post.

If one feels I am incorrect about something I have stated I would appreciate if a question was asked to confirm if that is in fact what I meant, not assumptions and accusations. I will be happy to try to clarify my meanings and discuss but I will not argue. :)

genesisblu
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:06 AM
Ok one I did go back and read...you said nobody has a right to forgiveness.

I didn't state what I said very clearly and can understand the misunderstanding.

It was not my intent to imply we have a right to forgiveness, I was saying that no one should deny a person the right to return to Christ for forgiveness by making them feel so unworthy as to feel they have no right to return to Christ. I say that from experience, I was in a church that made me feel that I was the biggest sinner (over what we humans would consider a minor sin - all sins are equal to God I understand that) and basically because of that had no right to even be in church asking God to forgive me. It was a condemnation that said "oh you did that, how can you even show your face here?" That is not right to do to people. I was a teen and wasn't even mature enough to understand things about God on any kind of a deep level. So, I ran thinking if I have to be perfect I am doomed to hell like these people keep telling me so I may as well just give up.

Hope I explained that better.

JesusMySavior
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:52 AM
The grace and mercy of God will correct you and lead you down the right path.

I could never be perfect. Without the mercy of God I could never tell people about Christ, I would not have a passion, and I would not have a purpose in life. Jesus IS my life.

For those that focus more on the wrath and punishment of God than the mercy and grace of God, I feel sorry for you. I used to be there. I was not a happy Christian.

Needless to say I actually sin LESS now that I have God's grace and mercy working fully in my life and I understand it and embrace it on a daily basis. Religious people will gawk at the fact that someone could always boast about the grace of God - in EVERY imaginable topic, directly related or not. But that's all I can do. Boast in the Lord, because He is good and He's set me free. :bounce:

ccunit
Jul 3rd 2008, 06:48 PM
It is fine that you think you know what it means, but I think that there is always a need to re-think our interpretaion.
Ezekiel 38 is a good example of this. For years the prevailing view has been that Russia would attack Isael and God would miraculously kill the Russian soldiers. The rules of interpretation however, exclude Russsia because God speaks clearly. The people of Israel of those days did not know there was a nation called Russia. Ordinary people do not speak to people about things that they know the hearers don't know about, and God is much smarter than we. Thank you.