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Steve509
Jun 27th 2008, 09:48 PM
i don't keep a gun handy, but i really think if someone was breaking in and i could get to my gun, i would shoot. i would try to scare him off first, but if it came right down to it, i would shoot.

how about you?

Slug1
Jun 27th 2008, 10:03 PM
Only if the intruder presented the ability or desire to use lethal force. It's too easy to just shoot while it's better to hold the intruder at gun point if all he has is a knife or his fists. However, if he didn't heed the fact I was aiming at his chest and told him I was armed and not to move and he still advanced on me after the verbal warning I'd shoot him. If he had a firearm there would be no verbal warning and the first thing he'd hear would be the sound of a pump shotgun charging a 3 inch magnum turkey shell and then the explosion of the shotgun firing.

mcgyver
Jun 27th 2008, 10:19 PM
Yes I would...

I live in the Everglades, and have 2 young children and my wife in the house...if one were to break in, then I will assume that the lives of my family are in jeopardy and will act accordingly.

Ashley274
Jun 28th 2008, 01:55 AM
In a nano second

stillforgiven
Jun 28th 2008, 02:05 AM
Not only have I had to ponder the question in the OP, I've had to face that at one time it could have been on of my sisters high on meth looking for money. For her, I don't think I could have ever shot to kill, no matter the circumstance. I would shoot to injure if I had not other choice, though.

For anyone else, I am with Slug on this one. Of course, being a woman, the chance of my weapon being taken and used against me is a little higher, so I may tend to not hesitate as long as a man if I really felt it was shoot or die.

I've had a .357 in the night stand next to my bed for the past 15 years. And before anyone goes there, I never have kids in my apartment. If I do, I will take the necessary precautions to keep it out of their hands.

Literalist-Luke
Jun 28th 2008, 04:45 AM
Lemme at 'em!

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/vb_flamethrowingsmiley.gifhttp://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/5822015413.gifhttp://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/rocketwhore.gifhttp://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/5822013558.gif

Scubadude
Jun 28th 2008, 04:46 AM
Only if the intruder presented the ability or desire to use lethal force. It's too easy to just shoot while it's better to hold the intruder at gun point if all he has is a knife or his fists. However, if he didn't heed the fact I was aiming at his chest and told him I was armed and not to move and he still advanced on me after the verbal warning I'd shoot him. If he had a firearm there would be no verbal warning and the first thing he'd hear would be the sound of a pump shotgun charging a 3 inch magnum turkey shell and then the explosion of the shotgun firing.

Yeah, what he said!

SweetSomber
Jun 28th 2008, 05:28 AM
I would be willing to shoot an intruder, but only after all other options had been exhausted.

I'd try verbal exchange, disarming them, pointing a gun at them to get them to surrender, and finally shooting to wound. I can't imagine that, after I shot to wound, I would need to do more than wait for the police, but in the unlikely case that they were going to use lethal force against my family, and shooting to kill was the last option, I would. (I've thought about this because I have in the past disarmed knives, and have considered becoming a police officer)

cnw
Jun 28th 2008, 05:34 AM
if you shoot, shoot to kill.
an intruder that gets hurt in your home whether it is an accident or you maiming him can sue you and take everything....better there is no one left to testify, but make sure you know who it is before pulling the trigger.

cnw
Jun 28th 2008, 05:37 AM
by the way, we always knew where my parents had their gun and never dared touch it. we were taught well.

dan
Jun 28th 2008, 07:28 AM
When an intruder broke down Robert Jenkins’ door, he seemed to doubt Jenkins’ marksmanship. “When he saw me, he said, ‘Give me that gun,’” the 81-year-old Jenkins said. “Then he lunged at me, so I shot him.” But police say the incident didn’t end there. While Jenkins’ wife called 9-1-1, the intruder again dove at Jenkins, striking him in the head and chest. Jenkins fired his .38-caliber pistol a second time, killing the intruder. “If it happened again, I’d do the same thing, but I hope I don’t have to,” Jenkins said. (The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Atlanta, GA, 03/22/08)

DadBurnett
Jun 28th 2008, 07:51 AM
i don't keep a gun handy, but i really think if someone was breaking in and i could get to my gun, i would shoot. i would try to scare him off first, but if it came right down to it, i would shoot.

how about you?

I have owned two shotguns, one I bought as a teenager and one given me by my grandfather … I got rid of them … had no use for them. I inherited a pistol from my dad, I held on to it for awhile but again found I had no reason to have it, so I sold it. Would I shoot an intruder? No! I’ve made sure of that decision by choosing not to have a gun.
True story: I stood at 2:00 AM braced with all of my weight against the front door while someone yelling and screaming was throwing all of his weight against it, trying to break in. After a few minutes he gave up and left and I called 911. My only defense was prayer; I prayed, believing, and thank God it worked, as promised! Had I a gun, the results probably would been different. I am thankful for the inspiration that caused me to get rid of my guns.

ServantofTruth
Jun 28th 2008, 11:00 AM
if you shoot, shoot to kill.
an intruder that gets hurt in your home whether it is an accident or you maiming him can sue you and take everything....better there is no one left to testify, but make sure you know who it is before pulling the trigger.

I hope with time you will post again and correct everything that is wrong with these words.

Surely a christian doesn't put worldly possessions - being sued - above someones life? Please read Matthew 6:25-34.

Would readers not give up every worldly possession to a thief, in the hope of 'saving' that person? I heard of a woman being mugged - she took off her cross and chain - and gave it to the man before he even asked!

If we act the same as non believers - can we honestly say we have found Jesus Christ? :( Servant of Truth.

EarlyCall
Jun 28th 2008, 01:09 PM
I have owned two shotguns, one I bought as a teenager and one given me by my grandfather … I got rid of them … had no use for them. I inherited a pistol from my dad, I held on to it for awhile but again found I had no reason to have it, so I sold it. Would I shoot an intruder? No! I’ve made sure of that decision by choosing not to have a gun.
True story: I stood at 2:00 AM braced with all of my weight against the front door while someone yelling and screaming was throwing all of his weight against it, trying to break in. After a few minutes he gave up and left and I called 911. My only defense was prayer; I prayed, believing, and thank God it worked, as promised! Had I a gun, the results probably would been different. I am thankful for the inspiration that caused me to get rid of my guns.

Do you know whether this would-be intruder went anywhere else and harmed anyone? Maybe raped and murdered a little girl?

It is a very real possibility. And how would that make you feel to escape the harm of the intruder only to have them go and harm another because you didn't stop them from doing so.

I don't own a gun, but if I did and someone forced their way into my home, I'd kill them in a second and wouldn't be bothered by it one bit.

My wife and my daughter happen to matter to me. I do not pretend silly things. Someone that tries to break into another's home has with purpose and intent gone far out of their way to at the very least to take and more likely to harm.

I'm not likely to be their last victim. If given the opportunity, legally, to stop them, I surely would. And I'd feel very good about it too because I would understand that I may very well have saved not only my life, my wife and daughter's lives but others that would have become this intruder's victims after me. And that seems Christ-like to me.

Joyfilled
Jun 28th 2008, 01:27 PM
i don't keep a gun handy, but i really think if someone was breaking in and i could get to my gun, i would shoot. i would try to scare him off first, but if it came right down to it, i would shoot.

how about you?

No. I'd try to convert him. :) if I die, I die. But I'm not going to treat him the same way he treats me. One has to be willing lose his life to find it . :)

ServantofTruth
Jun 28th 2008, 03:31 PM
Who's law are we using - when we say we have a 'legal' right to kill an intruder?

If we start shooting to kill, because that person MIGHT go elsewhere and do a crime..............well how many of US before coming to faith would have been shot dead?

Please show me a BIBLICAL example of where God/ Jesus got cross over material possessions - i believe you won't find one. Now show me where he got cross over SPIRITUAL things.....now you'll find that much easier.

This is definitely a contraversial area, where christians are unable to apply God's Word and Spirit over their up bringing. The world, Satan's world, is winning with many people. So sad, Servant of Truth. :B

EarlyCall
Jun 28th 2008, 04:01 PM
Who's law are we using - when we say we have a 'legal' right to kill an intruder?

If we start shooting to kill, because that person MIGHT go elsewhere and do a crime..............well how many of US before coming to faith would have been shot dead?

Don't know and don't care. Totally irrelevant. If you really think it is relevant, then you need to attach a number to it since you raise the question based on some hypothetical number. What would that number be?

Please show me a BIBLICAL example of where God/ Jesus got cross over material possessions - i believe you won't find one. Now show me where he got cross over SPIRITUAL things.....now you'll find that much easier.

I wasn't raising the issue of material things but actual human life.

This is definitely a contraversial area, where christians are unable to apply God's Word and Spirit over their up bringing. The world, Satan's world, is winning with many people. So sad, Servant of Truth. :B

First, you know nothing of my upbringing.

Now I am going to refer to the OT, and I know some will claim the OT is off limits. Nonsense. In fact we are told that we are to learn from the OT. We are told this in the NT.

Anyway, in the OT there is scripture concerning women being raped. Now it is my intent to show the mind of God in this.

God said that a woman being raped and in a place where she could scream for help but did not was guilty. But a woman that screamed for help and could not be heard was not guilty.

Notice the distinction between screaming for help and not? Why scream for help if God only wanted those coming to the rescue to talk to the rapist? Really? They should discuss the matter with the rapist?

Anyone willing to really think about this honestly? Anyone willing to honestly discuss this? The one coming to the aid of the woman being raped, it is logically assumed will do whatever is needed, including killing the rapist in order to rescue the woman.

If you disagree with this, then you tell me what the rescuer was supposed to do in coming to the aid of the woman being raped. Honestly is required as is commonsense.

What? Does God have to spell every little thing out for us? Did God actually have to say, now as a rescuer of a woman being raped, you are permitted to do the following only... You have to be kidding me. God expected that person to do whatever needed to be done to rescue the woman. In fact, God didn't go into any what you can or cannot do because it is such a simple matter and so easily understood that it "goes without saying".

So anyone trying to tell me God does not permit us to defend ourselves and family is also telling me He does not permit us to defend another in need. And yet here is evidence that he does. And so then if we are to defend others we are also to defend our own.

In the NT God said that a man who does not care for his own family is worse than a heathen. Now unlike many on this board, I try to be honest. Lying happens in many subtle ways and I see it a lot on this board.

I can't say I know nor can I say that the verse includes defending ones own family, but I can say that I think it does. I say that because taking care of ones own family involves many things. It is more than simply providing food and shelter. And I ask myself, if I do not defend my family from an intruder, am I taking care of them? I have to answer that I am not.

Vhayes
Jun 28th 2008, 05:24 PM
Would I shoot someone who came into my home with the intent to do harm? In a heart beat.

How would it be "ok" in the sight of God for me to stand by and watch someone rape my daugher or beat my son?

I Timothy 5:8 reads:
But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
To me, providing protection from robbers, rapists, thugs and murderers is all a part of the "providing for". Call me crazy...

quiet dove
Jun 28th 2008, 05:38 PM
Seems to me that when a person breaks into a home, that in itself is a statement of they are willing to die for whatever it is in that home they are trying to harm. The intruder put themselves in that position. The home owner did not put them in that position. The intruder is basically saying that what they want from that house is, not only more important to them than the life of the home owner, but also more important to them than their own life.

Steve509
Jun 28th 2008, 06:51 PM
Who's law are we using - when we say we have a 'legal' right to kill an intruder?

If we start shooting to kill, because that person MIGHT go elsewhere and do a crime..............well how many of US before coming to faith would have been shot dead?

Please show me a BIBLICAL example of where God/ Jesus got cross over material possessions - i believe you won't find one. Now show me where he got cross over SPIRITUAL things.....now you'll find that much easier.

This is definitely a contraversial area, where christians are unable to apply God's Word and Spirit over their up bringing. The world, Satan's world, is winning with many people. So sad, Servant of Truth. :B

by breaking into a home that person has already commited a crime.

"how many of us would have been shot dead"?

even before i was saved i didn't go around breaking into homes. i would guess the same would be true for nearly everyone else here.

fewarechosen
Jun 28th 2008, 07:15 PM
the real question is this what are you afraid of that you feel you would have to kill him

the only reason you shoot the person is because you are afraid.

so when you are afraid you are disobeying this


fear no man that can kill your body but not your soul

you can rationalize however you want -- but in the end its fear that makes you pull the trigger -- and in so doing it shows your fear

redeemedbyhim
Jun 28th 2008, 07:22 PM
No. I'd try to convert him. :) if I die, I die. But I'm not going to treat him the same way he treats me. One has to be willing lose his life to find it . :)

You do know that scripture is not talking about losing your "life" in the physical, but the spiritual, right?

And I'd say if he's intent on killing you, there isn't going to be any time to "convert" the intruder.

Would you also do the same if it was a loved one? Would you allow them to die if you had the means to stop it? It's one thing to give up on your own life, but quite another to give up a loved one's life.

If someone was about to harm my child, there isn't a moment's hesitation on my part.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 28th 2008, 07:27 PM
the real question is this what are you afraid of that you feel you would have to kill him

the only reason you shoot the person is because you are afraid.

so when you are afraid you are disobeying this

fear no man that can kill your body but not your soul

you can rationalize however you want -- but in the end its fear that makes you pull the trigger -- and in so doing it shows your fear

Fear in the sense you're talking about doesn't encompass someone putting a gun to your head or someone breaking into your home. I hardly think God is going to hold it against us to feel some fear in the face of such a traumatic situation.

The real question is should we defend ourselves and those God has given to us to love and protect?

cnw
Jun 28th 2008, 07:48 PM
no I wouldn't shoot a person to protect my worldly things, I would to protect my family and make sure the peson never had the chance to kill my children.
I have a lot of family members who are very scarry and wouldn't think twice about killing you if you were in thier way....and that is why some of them are locked up.
It is true they can take everything from you, and it is true I would shoot them, I wont recant, but I don't care about personal materialistc things.

fewarechosen
Jun 28th 2008, 08:00 PM
Fear in the sense you're talking about doesn't encompass someone putting a gun to your head or someone breaking into your home. I hardly think God is going to hold it against us to feel some fear in the face of such a traumatic situation.

The real question is should we defend ourselves and those God has given to us to love and protect?


it even says in that scripture --fear no man who can kill you ---------- its totally talking about a guy with a gun to your head,

it isnt saying dont fear a man who can hit you , but you can fear one whos gonna kill you.

scripture also says perfect love casts out fear.

and no we dotn defend ourselves -- you let god do it

have faith in god not yourself.


people have a very hard time with that because its so different then living afraid- we are used to living afraid.

remember peters example -- he was walking on water, then saw a wave coming showed fear and began to sink

he sank because of FEAR


So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.



And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.




4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him


none of these are exaggerations -- he tells you straight up dont fear it

once you can get to the other side of that fear - then you will not at all want to kill the intruder

he is your neighbor

evrgreenjhawk
Jun 28th 2008, 08:20 PM
the real question is this what are you afraid of that you feel you would have to kill him

the only reason you shoot the person is because you are afraid.

so when you are afraid you are disobeying this


fear no man that can kill your body but not your soul

you can rationalize however you want -- but in the end its fear that makes you pull the trigger -- and in so doing it shows your fear

I fear starvation if I do not use what God has given me to take advantage of what he provides. Maybe it is your idea of Faith for God to Himself take care of everything personally, while you sit on your hands. For me faith is believing He is In me and will use me for His will as led by the Spirit.

I live by very modest means, have a wife and 9 year old daughter who live with me as well. Anyone breaking in to my home is not after the silver or Hi-tech electronics, I can assure you. The fastest response I have ever had from sheriffs is 20-30 minutes. I have only a single shot 12 gauge shotgun, so as I will be praying for the intruder and my family, I figure I am giving the intruder a sporting chance during the time it takes me to reload to show some repentance.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 28th 2008, 08:26 PM
it even says in that scripture --fear no man who can kill you ---------- its totally talking about a guy with a gun to your head,

You're taking the scripture out of context.

Matthew 10

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



it isnt saying dont fear a man who can hit you , but you can fear one whos gonna kill you.

He is talking about in the service of the Gospel, not an intruder into your home for nerfarious reasons, that has nothing to do with the preaching of the Gospel.


scripture also says perfect love casts out fear.

Again, taken out of context.

1 John 4:17-19



17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us.




and no we dotn defend ourselves -- you let god do it

Then explain this:
Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.


have faith in god not yourself.

people have a very hard time with that because its so different then living afraid- we are used to living afraid.

remember peters example -- he was walking on water, then saw a wave coming showed fear and began to sink

he sank because of FEAR


So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.



And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him


none of these are exaggerations -- he tells you straight up dont fear it

once you can get to the other side of that fear - then you will not at all want to kill the intruder

he is your neighbor

Well, bless your heart, I know you mean well, but none of the above has anything to do with someone breaking into your home about to kill you and or your family.

God also said to "use wisdom in all things".

redeemedbyhim
Jun 28th 2008, 08:29 PM
fewarechosen,
Btw, are you going to lay your three month old daughter's life down if someone is pointing a gun to her head?

EarlyCall
Jun 28th 2008, 09:48 PM
the real question is this what are you afraid of that you feel you would have to kill him

the only reason you shoot the person is because you are afraid.

so when you are afraid you are disobeying this


fear no man that can kill your body but not your soul

you can rationalize however you want -- but in the end its fear that makes you pull the trigger -- and in so doing it shows your fear

Maybe you missed my post above about women being raped. I'd appreciate you addressing that please.

fewarechosen
Jun 28th 2008, 10:05 PM
You're taking the scripture out of context.

Matthew 10

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.




He is talking about in the service of the Gospel, not an intruder into your home for nerfarious reasons, that has nothing to do with the preaching of the Gospel.



Again, taken out of context.

1 John 4:17-19



17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us.





Then explain this:
Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.



Well, bless your heart, I know you mean well, but none of the above has anything to do with someone breaking into your home about to kill you and or your family.

God also said to "use wisdom in all things".


yes your whole life should be in service of the gospel -- thats why you FEAR NO MAN.

your life IS the gospel -- you try to put into some sort of context -- like well when your preaching you dont have to fear , but when your not look out man be afraid.



but take scriptures word for it--- when it says fear no man --- fear no man.

chop it up spin it up do whatever you want to it -- but in the end-- its fear no man


as far as the explination of what sword he is talking about -- read revelations its the same sword that comes out of christs mouth -- sharper than any 2 edged kind.

unless you think the apostles went out preaching with physical swords lol

18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

fear hath torment -- yo are afraid you or your wife will die so that is a torment, you fear so it stops you from preaching the gospel as well as we should.

and bless your heart as well -- just make sure your not trying to tell men to fear when god said they shouldnt

fewarechosen
Jun 28th 2008, 10:22 PM
i notice alot of you talking about family members and such, and i think you are having some trouble with the idea of them dying. and i understand that its human nature-- as we evolve and grow in god we become stronger in things, the old man dies off and the new man becomes stronger.

like i notice all kinds of what ifs, but how about this what if , what if because you have faith in god he never even lets the devil send someone to your house. what if he sends a mad man to your house just so you can cast a devil out of him ?


if your what ifs are valid then so are those.

as paul wrote -to die is gain- so why will i fear death

here is another what if -- what if your standing the way god sees it is good-- then a man seeking to do you harm comes to your house. you shoot and kill the man. then god says well this man did not love his neighbor because he killed him. you never feel what you did is wrong so you never repent it. then when your flesh dies.
he looks at you and says who are you and closes the door on your face.


21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


many will think they are doing gods work but arent

it was gods will to tell you to fear no man-- make sure you follow his will

stillforgiven
Jun 28th 2008, 10:27 PM
And yet another thread has dissolved into the "I'm a better Christian than you" theme.

I'm out of this one

fewarechosen
Jun 28th 2008, 10:31 PM
who said anything about being a better christian than anyone -- stillforgiven ?

are you assuming that because someone has a different point of view that they think they are better than someone else ? i did not see that anywhere in this thread by anyone

redeemedbyhim
Jun 28th 2008, 10:33 PM
yes your whole life should be in service of the gospel -- thats why you FEAR NO MAN.

your life IS the gospel -- you try to put into some sort of context -- like well when your preaching you dont have to fear , but when your not look out man be afraid.

but take scriptures word for it--- when it says fear no man --- fear no man.

chop it up spin it up do whatever you want to it -- but in the end-- its fear no man

Dear one, I'm not the one who is "spinning" and "chopping". You are not taking the Scirptures in context and are ignoring the OP.
Jesus was talking about not fearing what a man can do to your body while "shouting from the rootops the Gospel". God is a God of order and you're applying the the "fear no man" to an intruder with a gun in his hand.
Are you a robot? Do you not have emotions? I sure do, and if someone puts a gun to my head, you bet I'm going to sense some "fear". It may pass, but it'll be there. And none of that says we can't or shouldn't protect our lives in the description of the OP.
If the author of this thread asked the question in the "context" of proclaiming the Gospel the answers would be different.
I don't know what is so hard about that to understand. :confused


as far as the explination of what sword he is talking about -- read revelations its the same sword that comes out of christs mouth -- sharper than any 2 edged kind.

unless you think the apostles went out preaching with physical swords lol

So, Jesus was telling the disciples to "sell" their garment to buy the Word of God???? He just got thru telling them; freely ye have received, freely give.



18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

fear hath torment -- yo are afraid you or your wife will die so that is a torment, you fear so it stops you from preaching the gospel as well as we should.

and bless your heart as well -- just make sure your not trying to tell men to fear when god said they shouldnt

Well, first of all I'm a woman and I expect my husband to protect me and our family. It is His God given responsibility.
And you failed to address the context of "fear has no torment".

We can take any Scripture and make it mean anything, but it does a disservice to the Gospel and God's Word in general.

Just make sure you're not telling people they can't protect or defend themselves.

evrgreenjhawk
Jun 28th 2008, 11:01 PM
One point that may also be missing here is that while some may think to shoot the intruder would be doing as they should, that does not mean that there will not be regret, perhaps misery or guilt. Never the less, when it comes to taking the chance on the life of my family, or God's forgiveness, I will take the latter.

Peace

fewarechosen
Jun 28th 2008, 11:13 PM
just remember christ was perfect and did no sin

when they came to kill him even unjustly -- he did not defend himself.

and you do nothing wrong EVER to walk as christ did

Vhayes
Jun 28th 2008, 11:56 PM
the real question is this what are you afraid of that you feel you would have to kill him

the only reason you shoot the person is because you are afraid.

so when you are afraid you are disobeying this


fear no man that can kill your body but not your soul

you can rationalize however you want -- but in the end its fear that makes you pull the trigger -- and in so doing it shows your fear
Hi, Fewarechosen -

I have no idea how old you are, whether or not you have children or if you had a father who lived with you while you were growing up.

God is our heavenly Father and He gave us earthly parents to care for us
when we are young. If they are good parents, they model God to us as we grow up - they care for us, teach us what unselfish love is, correct us when we get something wrong, discipline us when we act like idiots. Just like God does.

For a child to be beaten, raped, abused in any manner because their father just didn't think it was right to defend them is to send them the message that God really doesn't protect them, life is all chance and you have to be at the mercy of the bullies of this world.

Somehow I don't think that's exactly what God had in mind when he created the parent model.

I live in the 'hood. The police helicopter flies over my house almost every night. Gun shots are a daily and nightly occurance. Homicides happen within a three block radius from my house at least once a month, usually more. I find crack pipes in the alley behind my house everytime I take the trash out.

While I believe God will protect me and while I am not afraid to live here (I live here by total choice - moved here from an affluent neighborhood) I take what I feel are precuationary measures. Just as I don't drive a car without insurance even though I trust God to keep me from having an accident, I also insure my "Get off my porch" has meaning and weight even though I believe God will protect me.

Maybe someday I can grow up and be the strong Christian you are but for right now, I believe God has allowed me to own a gun as a part of that protection. Just like I believe God allows me to use the doctor when I am ill EVEN THOUGH He can heal me.

And for what it's worth, I'm not afraid to die, been very close a couple of times. And I would willingly sacrifice myself for my children and/or my husband.

How many children do you have? Would you try to defend them? Is it fear that would drive that or a sense of responsibility?

andrewanderson
Jun 29th 2008, 12:13 AM
when they came to kill him even unjustly -- he did not defend himself.

People say that alot, that Jesus's life was taken. That is incorrect. His life was not taken. It was given freely as part of his an his fathers plan for our salvation. Saying it was taken is an incorrect statement that is often used to support peoples beliefs. That was part of his plan the entire time. Jesus did not defend himself because it was his plan for them to take him.

andrewanderson
Jun 29th 2008, 12:19 AM
That being said, if I had to shoot a home intruder because my or my families life was in danger then yes they would get shot by myself or my family. I would prefer to simply handcuff them though. And yes, I do have flexcuffs in the house and my family knows where the flexcuffs are and wher eall the guns are in case they have to use them.

I have also been trained in various lifesaving techniques (including how to treat gun shot wounds) and have a rather robust First Aid bad that is positioned in our bedroom which is where we would hold out. I would prefer for the person to simply leave or to be taken peacefully while we wait for the police to arrive. If the intruder decides that they would rather be shot then be held at gun point or leave the house then unfortunately they will be shot.

Slug1
Jun 29th 2008, 01:14 AM
That being said, if I had to shoot a home intruder because my or my families life was in danger then yes they would get shot by myself or my family. I would prefer to simply handcuff them though. And yes, I do have flexcuffs in the house and my family knows where the flexcuffs are and wher eall the guns are in case they have to use them.

I have also been trained in various lifesaving techniques (including how to treat gun shot wounds) and have a rather robust First Aid bad that is positioned in our bedroom which is where we would hold out. I would prefer for the person to simply leave or to be taken peacefully while we wait for the police to arrive. If the intruder decides that they would rather be shot then be held at gun point or leave the house then unfortunately they will be shot.If one of my men had to defend his family from an intruder and the intruder lived I'd make sure he spent the next week on all the livefire ranges till he could shoot straight ;)

fewarechosen
Jun 29th 2008, 01:18 AM
Hi, Fewarechosen -

I have no idea how old you are, whether or not you have children or if you had a father who lived with you while you were growing up.

God is our heavenly Father and He gave us earthly parents to care for us
when we are young. If they are good parents, they model God to us as we grow up - they care for us, teach us what unselfish love is, correct us when we get something wrong, discipline us when we act like idiots. Just like God does.

For a child to be beaten, raped, abused in any manner because their father just didn't think it was right to defend them is to send them the message that God really doesn't protect them, life is all chance and you have to be at the mercy of the bullies of this world.

Somehow I don't think that's exactly what God had in mind when he created the parent model.

I live in the 'hood. The police helicopter flies over my house almost every night. Gun shots are a daily and nightly occurance. Homicides happen within a three block radius from my house at least once a month, usually more. I find crack pipes in the alley behind my house everytime I take the trash out.

While I believe God will protect me and while I am not afraid to live here (I live here by total choice - moved here from an affluent neighborhood) I take what I feel are precuationary measures. Just as I don't drive a car without insurance even though I trust God to keep me from having an accident, I also insure my "Get off my porch" has meaning and weight even though I believe God will protect me.

Maybe someday I can grow up and be the strong Christian you are but for right now, I believe God has allowed me to own a gun as a part of that protection. Just like I believe God allows me to use the doctor when I am ill EVEN THOUGH He can heal me.

And for what it's worth, I'm not afraid to die, been very close a couple of times. And I would willingly sacrifice myself for my children and/or my husband.

How many children do you have? Would you try to defend them? Is it fear that would drive that or a sense of responsibility?

great post,

first thing , its a big assumption to think that i think im some great christian or better than anyone else around me or something -- god knows my heart, he knows lets me know exactly where i stand.

now because i am saying it is a matter of faith i notice people are saying or at least implying well --your saying that i have weak faith because i say i would shoot the person.

i judge no man -- but that doesnt mean i cant say your wrong to tell people feel free to shoot an intruder who you think is gonna kill you.

when i said the reason you want to shoot the person is because you fear them or what they are going to do, was i wrong ?

now im 35, and since you shared some of your life i will share some of mine as well. i am single and no children, i do not want children for i feel i will be giving them a death sentence to have one, so therfore i dont ever see marriage ahead and if i do not burn with lust i do well to not marry. the car i drive i did not buy i was given it, same with the computer i am on, all my clothes and earthly possesions i can fit in about a 6x6x6 area, i have not a penny of savings all the money i have on earth right now is about i think 3 dollars.

i have no medical i can feel around 30 or so tumors on my body i never even bother to have them looked at -- if god wants to teach me a lesson and say you fool i give you modern medicine yet you do not go, then he is free to teach it to me with any manner of cancer he sees fit, perhaps they are harmless tumors, so be it. am i afraid i might die from it, heck no if i get to die im out of this world that will be smashed to pieces. i am not of this world and do not seek to be part of it.

my sister and her husband allow me to live at their house rent free in turn i help keep the place in order for them and help them. i work freelance on my computer for small amounts of money just enough for gas and car insurance and i try to feed some folks who live under a bridge, because i am lucky enough to have been given all these things and they havent been.

i am under seige by temptation and the war consumes me, all i try to do is see where i am failing and fix the faults of which i have many, do i care that i am not saving any money for retirement - no ,do i care that i might have some crazy tumor disease- no, do i think that this makes me better than anyone- no. will god let me suffer some horrible death and shame for not caring for earthly things -perhaps.

i was baptized with a vision of a perfect fetus made of blue and white light and a voice that said "the one good thing". took me many years to even realize what had happend. but what i saw and heard was clearer than anything my eyes can see or my ears can hear.and i know nothing i lay my eyes upon is good. my lord is preparing me for something and im not sure what, but i know i must get this mote out of my own eye so i can help my brothers.

if i am a fool for living my life this way then may i be a fool for my lord. because he is very angry and i know no gun or bomb or manner of men can spare me if he sees fit for me to die, and i know no manner of disease nor man nor demon or power or principality can even touch me if my lord does not wish it. if he must teach me through pain because i am stubborn , let gods will be done, if he seeks to reward me for faith, let gods will be done.

i have much to learn and grow upon so i am here to look for those of the church so we may gather, for dark days are coming from which no gun or bomb will spare us.

and people may think im being proud or stupid or stubborn , and i will still tell them.

FEAR NO MAN -- not even the man with the gun to your childs head. for he can only kill your body -- but your decisions can kill your soul.(edit to say yes we can argue the point if your decisions can kill your soul yadda yadda -- but you get what im saying)

may peace be with you, with no sarcasm intended

Athanasius
Jun 29th 2008, 01:18 AM
If it was absolutely necessary, absolutely. Doesn't mean it's something I'd enjoy, but if it's my familys wellbeing, I'll take that over the person(s) trying to invade my home.

DadBurnett
Jun 29th 2008, 02:08 AM
Do you know whether this would-be intruder went anywhere else and harmed anyone? Maybe raped and murdered a little girl?

It is a very real possibility. And how would that make you feel to escape the harm of the intruder only to have them go and harm another because you didn't stop them from doing so.

I don't own a gun, but if I did and someone forced their way into my home, I'd kill them in a second and wouldn't be bothered by it one bit.

My wife and my daughter happen to matter to me. I do not pretend silly things. Someone that tries to break into another's home has with purpose and intent gone far out of their way to at the very least to take and more likely to harm.

I'm not likely to be their last victim. If given the opportunity, legally, to stop them, I surely would. And I'd feel very good about it too because I would understand that I may very well have saved not only my life, my wife and daughter's lives but others that would have become this intruder's victims after me. And that seems Christ-like to me.

Your response seems to clearly fit you avatar …
I respect your right to bear arms and to take inspired action. But this remains my resolve, I would rather put my trust in silly things like God and prayer rather than in guns … all I know is that it has worked so far for me for seven decades.

fewarechosen
Jun 29th 2008, 02:17 AM
Your response seems to clearly fit you avatar …
I respect your right to bear arms and to take inspired action. But this remains my resolve, I would rather put my trust in silly things like God and prayer rather than in guns … all I know is that it has worked so far for me for seven decades.


yea this is what i should have said --- well put :D

andrewanderson
Jun 29th 2008, 02:33 AM
I respect your right to bear arms and to take inspired action. But this remains my resolve, I would rather put my trust in silly things like God and prayer rather than in guns … all I know is that it has worked so far for me for seven decades.

I thank God that he has blessed you with a safe life thus far. Obviously that was his intent for your life or it would not have been that way so far. Perhaps it was God intent for your life that you not defend yourself if the need ever arises. Every persons life and death occurs for a reason and plays a part in Gods bigger plans.

Many Christians choose to not marry and they believe this choice was a choice that they made. I believe that it was Gods will for their life because them not marrying is part of Gods plan. They may never know how them not marrying played into Gods plans but that is simply part of being human. I believe that you choosing to not defend yourself may be part of Gods plans also. That may mean you live your entire life and never have to defend yourself or it means you die as a result of not defending yourself. Either way God has a purpose in your life and in your death and part of fulfilling that purpose may very well be that you may very well die as a result of not defending yourself.

I believe that God has a purpose in my life also. And as part of fulfilling that purpose I am to defend myself and my family.

Fenris
Jun 29th 2008, 02:36 AM
Who's law are we using - when we say we have a 'legal' right to kill an intruder?

Exodus 22: "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed"

andrewanderson
Jun 29th 2008, 02:36 AM
I would rather put my trust in silly things like God and prayer rather than in guns …

Do you put trust in your seatbelts each time you drive your car or do you chose to put your trust in God instead?

Do you put your trust in doctors and medical care or do you chose to put your trust in God instead?

Do you have medical, homeowners/renters, and car insurance or do you put your trust in God instead?

Is it not possible to do your part to protect yourself and still be putting your trust in God?

Has God not provided us with the safety mechanism and systems so that we can live our lives?

Fenris
Jun 29th 2008, 02:38 AM
And yet another thread has dissolved into the "I'm a better Christian than you" theme.


Trust me, I will never ever say that! :D

andrewanderson
Jun 29th 2008, 02:42 AM
I understand that each person will interpret the Bible differently.
I do not believe the Bible says it is wrong to defend yourself and I do not believe it is wrong for a person to chose to not defend themselves.
I do believe that it is wrong for someone to tell others that the Bible says they should not defend themselves.

Even if we all agreed that it was allowable by scripture to defend yourself some Christians would still chose not too. There could be several reason for this decision. The most compelling in my opinion would be that there could be emotional and mental scars for you if you injure or kill the intruder.
While I would not hesitate to shot someone that is going to injure myself or my family it is not something I every want to do.

andrewanderson
Jun 29th 2008, 02:45 AM
And yet another thread has dissolved into the "I'm a better Christian than you" theme.

I'm out of this oneTrust me, I will never ever say that! :D

Because the "better" Christian only sinned once this week as opposed to the worse Christian that sinned twice or three times? :confused

We all deserve to go too hell so why compare who deserves to go less?

Fenris
Jun 29th 2008, 02:46 AM
Because the "better" Christian only sinned once this week as opposed to the worse Christian that sinned twice or three times? :confused

No, I'll never say it because I'm not Christian. :hug:

andrewanderson
Jun 29th 2008, 02:50 AM
No, I'll never say it because I'm not Christian. :hug:

I did not catch that. http://legacygt.com/forums/images/smilies/lol.gif You invest alot of time on here for not being a Christian. I will PM you so as not to get this thread off topic.

Fenris
Jun 29th 2008, 02:51 AM
In answer to the first question, yes, absolutely.

And I'd sleep good afterward, too.

Fenris
Jun 29th 2008, 02:52 AM
I did not catch that. http://legacygt.com/forums/images/smilies/lol.gif You invest alot of time on here for not being a Christian..
I have come to greatly enjoy the company of religious Christians.

Slug1
Jun 29th 2008, 03:05 AM
To all new members... Fenris has been offered participation in a few extra forums on this board because of his fellowship with us all as a friend and cause we said so :P

Fenris
Jun 29th 2008, 03:06 AM
To all new members... Fenris has been offered participation in a few extra forums on this board because of his fellowship with us all as a friend and cause we said so :P
And don't think I don't appreciate it.

You guys are awesome! :hug:

Gulah Papyrus
Jun 29th 2008, 03:18 AM
...aks questions later.

fewarechosen
Jun 29th 2008, 03:19 AM
ok here is a question

since we have what ifs flying around in here

lets say that you have a kid

and god has let satan send someone come to murder that kid

you shoot kill him or stop it or whatever

now waht if by stopping that person , you allow your child to grow up and in so doing your child stray from god and becomes someone who is going to be damned in hell eternally

now if you didnt kill or stop that person
your kids body would die , but his soul would live forever in heaven

god tried to do you a favor- but because you clung to the flesh and killed the man sent to help you -you allowed your child to be eternally damned


and i never say dont defend yourself -- i say put on the full armor of the lord, and let him defend you. you will miss a shot , but god never does

quiet dove
Jun 29th 2008, 03:23 AM
That could work the other way around. What if your child was to grow into a mighty man of God, leading many to salvation and you just let an intruder come in and kill him?

fewarechosen
Jun 29th 2008, 03:25 AM
That could work the other way around. What if your child was to grow into a mighty man of God, leading many to salvation and you just let an intruder come in and kill him?

well not one of gods chosen will be lost
so it doesnt matter if your child never grows up he saves no one, only god does.

Slug1
Jun 29th 2008, 03:25 AM
ok here is a question

since we have what ifs flying around in here

lets say that you have a kid

and god has let satan send someone come to murder that kid

you shoot kill him or stop it or whatever

now waht if by stopping that person , you allow your child to grow up and in so doing your child stray from god and becomes someone who is going to be damned in hell eternally

now if you didnt kill or stop that person
your kids body would die , but his soul would live forever in heaven

god tried to do you a favor- but because you clung to the flesh and killed the man sent to help you -you allowed your child to be eternally damned


and i never say dont defend yourself -- i say put on the full armor of the lord, and let him defend you. you will miss a shot , but god never doesWe can "what if" life to death. Reality dude... stick to reality.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 29th 2008, 03:25 AM
just remember christ was perfect and did no sin

when they came to kill him even unjustly -- he did not defend himself.

and you do nothing wrong EVER to walk as christ did

I know it's been mentioned, but I think it bears repeating that Jesus said NO man "takes" His life, He willingly laid it down.
People can say they killed Him because He was perfect, but that does a complete injustice to His sacrifice.
He was killed because He willed it and it was determined BEFORE the foundation of the world. He allowed them to take Him and crucify Him for our sins. There is no comparison to His death to the OP of this thread.


I found it odd that you don't want to have children because you would be given them a death sentence.
How is that not "fear"? How is that trusting God?

I'm not saying you should marry or have children, I'm just wondering how that fits into your theology that says to protect one's family with shooting an intruder is "fear"? And how that squares with "perfect love casting out all fear"?

fewarechosen
Jun 29th 2008, 03:30 AM
I know it's been mentioned, but I think it bears repeating that Jesus said NO man "takes" His life, He willingly laid it down.
People can say they killed Him because He was perfect, but that does a complete injustice to His sacrifice.
He was killed because He willed it and it was determined BEFORE the foundation of the world. He allowed them to take Him and crucify Him for our sins. There is no comparison to His death to the OP of this thread.


I found it odd that you don't want to have children because you would be given them a death sentence.
How is that not "fear"? How is that trusting God?

I'm not saying you should marry or have children, I'm just wondering how that fits into your theology that says to protect one's family with shooting an intruder is "fear"? And how that squares with "perfect love casting out all fear"?

yea good question -- basically im saying i would be bringing someone to earth to die who will really serve no purpose cause its not my kid who would save anyone its only god who does. hes not needed so why bother

my family is everyone on the planet i dont see myself needing to add to it

quiet dove
Jun 29th 2008, 03:34 AM
That could work the other way around. What if your child was to grow into a mighty man of God, leading many to salvation and you just let an intruder come in and kill him?

well not one of gods chosen will be lost
so it doesnt matter if your child never grows up he saves no one, only god does.


I don't believe I said anything about the child doing the saving. Leading many to salvation translates into leading many to Christ by preaching the Gospel message, which is something we are all commanded to do.

Personally, I would rather protect my child and have the faith that they would be saved by the same Jesus that saved me, than to have them killed because I stood by and did nothing. It is a lot more difficult for a soul to be saved than it is for God to prevent physical death.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 29th 2008, 03:35 AM
yea good question -- basically im saying i would be bringing someone to earth to die who will really serve no purpose cause its not my kid who would save anyone its only god who does. hes not needed so why bother

my family is everyone on the planet i dont see myself needing to add to it

Whoa...that's quite a mind set, not that you're not entitled, but there is just so much wrong with that thinking.

Jesus said the harvest was ripe, but the laborers were few....guess we can attribute some of that to your kind of thinking. But, thankfully I believe as a Christian, you're rare.

God bless.

fewarechosen
Jun 29th 2008, 03:37 AM
We can "what if" life to death. Reality dude... stick to reality.



what i find interesting is jsut in the other thread you posted all kinds of what ifs, not but an hour ago.

what if we didnt fight germany?

what if we didnt fight muslims?

so i agree with your advice , but then i also add that you should listen to yourself

fewarechosen
Jun 29th 2008, 03:39 AM
Whoa...that's quite a mind set, not that you're not entitled, but there is just so much wrong with that thinking.

Jesus said the harvest was ripe, but the laborers were few....guess we can attribute some of that to your kind of thinking. But, thankfully I believe as a Christian, you're rare.

God bless.

a direct insult
and thanking that others like me arent around

we shall know a tree by its fruits i suppose

may god bless you

fewarechosen
Jun 29th 2008, 03:46 AM
I don't believe I said anything about the child doing the saving. Leading many to salvation translates into leading many to Christ by preaching the Gospel message, which is something we are all commanded to do.

Personally, I would rather protect my child and have the faith that they would be saved by the same Jesus that saved me, than to have them killed because I stood by and did nothing. It is a lot more difficult for a soul to be saved than it is for God to prevent physical death.

so again will anyone who is going to be saved , somehow be prevented from being saved if your child never leads them to salvation ?

Slug1
Jun 29th 2008, 03:48 AM
what i find interesting is jsut in the other thread you posted all kinds of what ifs, not but an hour ago.

what if we didnt fight germany?

what if we didnt fight muslims?

so i agree with your advice , but then i also add that you should listen to yourself :cool: Point taken.

OK, what if God gives you a mate wanting to bare children? :P

I'm firm in my post way above. God gave me the ability to defend my family in two fashions... 1) Call the police and I guess feed the intruder till they arrive to take him down. 2) I defend my family till they arrive and if he threatened me, they come to remove the body.

quiet dove
Jun 29th 2008, 03:52 AM
so again will anyone who is going to be saved , somehow be prevented from being saved if your child never leads them to salvation ?

I was just adding to the what if's scenarios, as far as life and death, guns or no guns, all that happens is in God's hands. If it is not meant for me to protect my family, then I imagine in another what if scenario I would not have opportunity to do so. But if I had opportunity I would do so. God knows what I will and won't do before I do. Him being the creator of all life, He can also choose to preserve me, the killer, both, neither, or just one of us. It really all comes down to His will in any scenario. For me to have opportunity to protect my child and not do so, nope, couldn't live with myself and would be full of shame before God over it. Thats just how I feel, right or wrong, thats just how I feel about it.

quiet dove
Jun 29th 2008, 03:53 AM
Just to add official word with the mod hat on, we are all very passionate here so lets not draw guns and shoot here with letting it get personal.

redeemedbyhim
Jun 29th 2008, 03:55 AM
a direct insult
and thanking that others like me arent around

we shall know a tree by its fruits i suppose

may god bless you

I apologize if that came across as an insult, please forgive me.
I've never heard anyone who was a Christian say they wouldn't want children because it would be a death sentence, to me that was a surprise;

I still believe that is error, but I don't believe it's a salvation issue, so I won't belabor the point. And hope we can agree to disagree.
Sincerely may God bless you.

Buzzword
Jun 29th 2008, 04:00 AM
Secure the intruder by whatever means necessary.

If that means my katana against the jugular, so be it.
If it means a loaded barrel against the back of the head, so be it.
If it means a gun butt/pistol handle in a narrow arc onto the kneecap, so be it.

Assess the situation first, then take appropriate action, and whatever action is taken, no second-guessing.

:cool:250th post.

fewarechosen
Jun 29th 2008, 04:09 AM
:cool: Point taken.

OK, what if God gives you a mate wanting to bare children? :P

I'm firm in my post way above. God gave me the ability to defend my family in two fashions... 1) Call the police and I guess feed the intruder till they arrive to take him down. 2) I defend my family till they arrive and if he threatened me, they come to remove the body.

dude i gotta say we bicker alot but i do love you man, i mean seriously who doesnt like an infantry man-- and i do mean that.

to be honest im weighing the whole mate thing in my life now and its been quickly disappearing. with me personally when i think about having a wife it comes down to greed. it would be about if i wanted comfort and someone to snuggle up to and someone to feel special too and the pleasure of sex and all that. now mind you im not saying --no i will never have a wife-- but see if you have a wife i feel its wrong to sort of deny her a child .then i would need more money to make sure i supported them and so on and so on and i feel i would be pulling myself back into mammon i am trying to get out of . its like a relationship can be a great thing and you can help eachother grow so i do not knock them. but when i boil it all down i dont need it i guess

i need god, i need to make sure i dont bury my talents in the ground, i need to get the mote out of my eye, i need to learn to love everyone around me more

every person who does gods will, should be my family and wife. i kind of hesitate at the thought of of having one because my instincts would be to start to be partial to her.

that being said i never rule one out, it may be gods will.
and it may be gods will for me to have a kid.

all i was trying to do was express how i felt about it


and im not knocking anyone for wanting to defend their family or something like that or calling them cowards or weak, just giving food for thought.

dan
Jun 29th 2008, 04:13 AM
as far as the explination of what sword he is talking about -- read revelations its the same sword that comes out of christs mouth -- sharper than any 2 edged kind.

unless you think the apostles went out preaching with physical swords lol

...I do!

LK 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one...

...LK 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here [are] two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

LK 11:21 When a strong man ARMED:o keepeth his court, those things are in peace which he possesseth.

MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear:
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

fewarechosen
Jun 29th 2008, 04:18 AM
sorry dove

and please dont take me wrong folks, im not some callious person who thinks hey im better than you or whatever and im sure im wronging people in how i type and phrase stuff or even the intent behind it, you all are fellow christians and are my sparring partners of sorts so sort of look at it that way. i am sure some have been pricked by my words or others words in here, and when that happens i think we should ponder it and wonder why does that bother me.

because i would rather have my brother prick me and teach me something than leave myself vulnerable to the devil through not sparring to make myself stronger.

we are not eachothers enemy thats for sure, its the devil that is the enemy.

so if i wronged anyone in this thread or came off as a jerk i apologize.

fewarechosen
Jun 29th 2008, 04:28 AM
I was just adding to the what if's scenarios, as far as life and death, guns or no guns, all that happens is in God's hands. If it is not meant for me to protect my family, then I imagine in another what if scenario I would not have opportunity to do so. But if I had opportunity I would do so. God knows what I will and won't do before I do. Him being the creator of all life, He can also choose to preserve me, the killer, both, neither, or just one of us. It really all comes down to His will in any scenario. For me to have opportunity to protect my child and not do so, nope, couldn't live with myself and would be full of shame before God over it. Thats just how I feel, right or wrong, thats just how I feel about it.

i can dig that :) here is the thing by living as good christians that is our defense -- god loves that he rewards that , he knows what we have need of even before we do.

hes not gonna let anyone come to our house, if he does it will all play out as it supposed to. i guess my point is dont give it a thought dont worry about it one bit.

we need to watch all our actions and all our sins how we pick sides with whoever or whatever not nations and that stuff just friends and neighbors. do we treat one person better because i like them better ? or do i treat even the crabby person i dont like the same.

every one of those little tiny things is our defense

Slug1
Jun 29th 2008, 04:33 AM
i need god, i need to make sure i dont bury my talents in the ground, i need to get the mote out of my eye, i need to learn to love everyone around me moreThis is what you really need to think about. I'm a person that God put on a path to defend the very people around you that God wants you to love. We all have different paths. Mine is as a warrior, yours is not, and that is obvious.

quiet dove
Jun 29th 2008, 04:44 AM
This is what you really need to think about. I'm a person that God put on a path to defend the very people around you that God wants you to love. We all have different paths. Mine is as a warrior, yours is not, and that is obvious.

And that is a good point to make. We all are given responsibilities and it only makes sense that we lean toward what we were created to be or lean toward what our created purpose is. Once we are in Christ especially. I mean, some out there are meant to arrest and protect, which will involve having to kill sometimes and some out there are meant to go into the prisons and spread the gospel. I think that is a very important issue to consider in the midst of all our various opinions and views.

I hate violence, don't like it on tv, don't like it in music and certainly don't like it in real life. But violence is a reality and there are those I believe God has put here to deal with it and that may mean me having to protect my family.

DadBurnett
Jun 29th 2008, 04:50 AM
Do you put trust in your seatbelts each time you drive your car or do you chose to put your trust in God instead?

Do you put your trust in doctors and medical care or do you chose to put your trust in God instead?

Do you have medical, homeowners/renters, and car insurance or do you put your trust in God instead?

Is it not possible to do your part to protect yourself and still be putting your trust in God?

Has God not provided us with the safety mechanism and systems so that we can live our lives?
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make ... all those "things" you refer to are not used to kill another human being. Using them harms no one.

Buzzword
Jun 29th 2008, 04:54 AM
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make ... all those "things" you refer to are not used to kill another human being. Using them harms no one.

The general sentiment:
Pray to God, but keep rowing towards the shore.

Trust Him, but do not think it arrogant to help yourself and others.

Slug1
Jun 29th 2008, 04:55 AM
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make ... all those "things" you refer to are not used to kill another human being. Using them harms no one.The point he's making is you don't need any of those things if you trust God. Just as you don't need a firearm for protection if you trust God.

IOW's if you trust God, you will never be threatened with your life and need a gun to defend yourself as you stated. You will never need to wear seatbelts cause you trust God to never have you crash your car. You will never need a doctor cause you trust God to never allow you to get sick or injured. You will never need insureance cause you trust God to never allow you to experience any of the situations requiring such various insurances.

Why don't you add employment cause with your statement, you will trust God to provide everything and there is no reason to even work for money.

Buzzword
Jun 29th 2008, 05:02 AM
The point he's making is you don't need any of those things if you trust God. Just as you don't need a firearm for protection if you trust God.

IOW's if you trust God, you will never be threatened with your life and need a gun to defend yourself as you stated. You will never need to wear seatbelts cause you trust God to never have you crash your car. You will never need a doctor cause you trust God to never allow you to get sick or injured. You will never need insureance cause you trust God to never allow you to experience any of the situations requiring such various insurances.

Why don't you add employment cause with your statement, you will trust God to provide everything and there is no reason to even work for money.

Wait, WHAT?

Are you being sarcastic?

God also gave us the intelligence to trust in the laws of physics He designed....and take steps to insure that those laws don't result in injury or death.

EarlyCall
Jun 29th 2008, 05:46 AM
Your response seems to clearly fit you avatar …
I respect your right to bear arms and to take inspired action. But this remains my resolve, I would rather put my trust in silly things like God and prayer rather than in guns … all I know is that it has worked so far for me for seven decades.

I asked you about your consideration for others. You didn't miss that did you?

EarlyCall
Jun 29th 2008, 06:06 AM
so again will anyone who is going to be saved , somehow be prevented from being saved if your child never leads them to salvation ?

And your scenario earlier of your child going to hell because you prevented an intruder from killing them...

And God couldn't have found someone else to kill them? God couldn't have kept your child His anyway?

You contradict yourself more than you.

EarlyCall
Jun 29th 2008, 06:15 AM
sorry dove

and please dont take me wrong folks, im not some callious person who thinks hey im better than you or whatever and im sure im wronging people in how i type and phrase stuff or even the intent behind it, you all are fellow christians and are my sparring partners of sorts so sort of look at it that way. i am sure some have been pricked by my words or others words in here, and when that happens i think we should ponder it and wonder why does that bother me.

because i would rather have my brother prick me and teach me something than leave myself vulnerable to the devil through not sparring to make myself stronger.

we are not eachothers enemy thats for sure, its the devil that is the enemy.

so if i wronged anyone in this thread or came off as a jerk i apologize.

It is an issue that conjures passions. I have strong feelings and I expect others to have them too.

When the thread has run its course, we turn out the lights, lock up and meet in another thread another day. There shouldn't be any hard feelings for anyone. And I suspect you will not harbor any because I think you are that kind of person. (That was a compliment by the way. I don't give them well.)

But, that said, I did ask you twice to respond to my post about the OT scripture about a woman being raped and what I said about it. I'd like to know what you think. I won't ask again or rather I won't bother you about it again, so I hope you will go back and reply.

fewarechosen
Jun 29th 2008, 01:28 PM
Do you know whether this would-be intruder went anywhere else and harmed anyone? Maybe raped and murdered a little girl?

It is a very real possibility. And how would that make you feel to escape the harm of the intruder only to have them go and harm another because you didn't stop them from doing so.

I don't own a gun, but if I did and someone forced their way into my home, I'd kill them in a second and wouldn't be bothered by it one bit.

My wife and my daughter happen to matter to me. I do not pretend silly things. Someone that tries to break into another's home has with purpose and intent gone far out of their way to at the very least to take and more likely to harm.

I'm not likely to be their last victim. If given the opportunity, legally, to stop them, I surely would. And I'd feel very good about it too because I would understand that I may very well have saved not only my life, my wife and daughter's lives but others that would have become this intruder's victims after me. And that seems Christ-like to me.


ok i think i see what your getting at, first off -- your question here is a response to someones post, now the original poster prevented himself and his family harm peacefully and told the authorites. after that i dont see much more he could have done--- now did the intruder go murder someone, perhaps. but that doesnt mean the orignal poster should have let him break in -- so he could shoot the intruder or something.

see its one of those hypotheticals , to which i could say well what if that guy is supposed to go murder someone. we all learn from the evil that goes on around us.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


now this is the way i see it-- on our path towards god we all know we continue to grow. let us try to see how our reactions might change to the situation. me for example, i have lots of guns and bows and all sorts of weapons.
see before i knew god i would never even have thought about not shooting an intruder, heck i used to think i would rather shoot him with a broadhead arrow, so i could watch his life slip away and enjoy his panic and watch him come to terms with the fact that he was going to die for trying to wrong me. i have killed lots of things and i used to look for someone to give me an excuse to kill a human. i would have never warned the intruder or said halt or something , i used to think well i just cant shoot him in the back because then id face charges - or else i would have probably just executed the person myself.

so then when god found me, i started to change. first thinking well ok lets just shoot the guy no need to bleed him to death if he breaks in.

then it was well ok id shoot him in the leg or something

then well perhaps i will wait to see even if he is a threat before i shoot him

then it was well maybe i hold a gun on him and chill him out, if he resists then i shoot him.

then it was how about i would just subdue him physically im 6'3 260 and a athlete who alot fear due to size alone - so im sure i could give the guy a run for his money.

then it was well if im home alone maybe i just walk up to him with a smile and say -dude seriously man what are you doing , then see what happens

then it was well what if hes gonna kill me - dont i think well i would never kill someone so it would do more good for him to die and me to live.

then - well i could die just to skip killing him , but what about my family i cant let him kill them.

on and on and on

at the times all those answers are correct, but they became more and more wrong as i move forward, but i judge no man for wanting to protect his family.

now the point im at -- is i am thinking whats wrong with me that i dont just cast the devil out of him tell him his sins are forgiven and send him on his way.

thats my fault for not being able to do that, im the very person who is to help these people and i cant because of my pathetic choices and weak mind, i have a great knowledge of god and often i will look him straight in the face know exactly what he wants me to do and choose the exact opposite. what i do is worse than murder, i know better the murderer doesnt. so i would rather have the murderer kill me at this point so i can say lord forgive me my sins as i have forgiven others. for i know my sins are of the worst kind and do not deserve forgiveness.

so perhaps it is i who commit the greater sin than the one about to murder me.


so i hope that helps answer your question

Joyfilled
Jun 29th 2008, 02:07 PM
If it was absolutely necessary, absolutely. Doesn't mean it's something I'd enjoy, but if it's my familys wellbeing, I'll take that over the person(s) trying to invade my home.

Proverbs 15:1, "A gentle word turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."

Thieves and murderers are already scared. The last thing they need is someone out to kill them. One needs to lean on God for strength in those times and ask for discernment from the Holy Spirit. But those who don't have God in their lives have no choice but to use worldly weapons in those times instead of spiritual weapons. God says he won't harm those he loves. We need to have faith that whatever happens, God is allowing. In the meantime, we are to rely on His word as our way of handling conflicts so His power can work through us.

EarlyCall
Jun 29th 2008, 02:22 PM
ok i think i see what your getting at, first off -- your question here is a response to someones post, now the original poster prevented himself and his family harm peacefully and told the authorites. after that i dont see much more he could have done--- now did the intruder go murder someone, perhaps. but that doesnt mean the orignal poster should have let him break in -- so he could shoot the intruder or something.

see its one of those hypotheticals , to which i could say well what if that guy is supposed to go murder someone. we all learn from the evil that goes on around us.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


now this is the way i see it-- on our path towards god we all know we continue to grow. let us try to see how our reactions might change to the situation. me for example, i have lots of guns and bows and all sorts of weapons.
see before i knew god i would never even have thought about not shooting an intruder, heck i used to think i would rather shoot him with a broadhead arrow, so i could watch his life slip away and enjoy his panic and watch him come to terms with the fact that he was going to die for trying to wrong me. i have killed lots of things and i used to look for someone to give me an excuse to kill a human. i would have never warned the intruder or said halt or something , i used to think well i just cant shoot him in the back because then id face charges - or else i would have probably just executed the person myself.

so then when god found me, i started to change. first thinking well ok lets just shoot the guy no need to bleed him to death if he breaks in.

then it was well ok id shoot him in the leg or something

then well perhaps i will wait to see even if he is a threat before i shoot him

then it was well maybe i hold a gun on him and chill him out, if he resists then i shoot him.

then it was how about i would just subdue him physically im 6'3 260 and a athlete who alot fear due to size alone - so im sure i could give the guy a run for his money.

then it was well if im home alone maybe i just walk up to him with a smile and say -dude seriously man what are you doing , then see what happens

then it was well what if hes gonna kill me - dont i think well i would never kill someone so it would do more good for him to die and me to live.

then - well i could die just to skip killing him , but what about my family i cant let him kill them.

on and on and on

at the times all those answers are correct, but they became more and more wrong as i move forward, but i judge no man for wanting to protect his family.

now the point im at -- is i am thinking whats wrong with me that i dont just cast the devil out of him tell him his sins are forgiven and send him on his way.

thats my fault for not being able to do that, im the very person who is to help these people and i cant because of my pathetic choices and weak mind, i have a great knowledge of god and often i will look him straight in the face know exactly what he wants me to do and choose the exact opposite. what i do is worse than murder, i know better the murderer doesnt. so i would rather have the murderer kill me at this point so i can say lord forgive me my sins as i have forgiven others. for i know my sins are of the worst kind and do not deserve forgiveness.

so perhaps it is i who commit the greater sin than the one about to murder me.


so i hope that helps answer your question

Well, actually no as I had one I directly posted to you. I reiterate here. But before I do, I do appreciate your reply and also your position. I believe it is where God has brought you in your walk with Him. The problem comes in when you and others claim our position to be contrary to God's word.

What I had asked earlier in the thread was for your honest thoughts on something. Here it is again.

In the OT God said that a woman being raped where her cries for help could be heard, but did not cry for help was guilty. But the woman being raped where her cries could not be heard was not guilty.

We re not concerned here with this being a law, a rule, a regulation or any such thing as that. Do not discount this because it is OT. On the contrary, it is the mind of God Himself. It is showing us a principle and the thinking of God.

Two requests: One is to answer each question as my post proceeds. Please answer each question and in the order you come to it. It is important. I'm working this through logically as I would if designing a program. And two, bear in mind that any answer you give cannot be an answer that could only be given today. In others words, when God inspired these words, there were no phones, no 911 to dial, no cop dispatch to call and so on. These words were long before such things. So saying I would call the cops doesn't work. Stay within the scenario completely. It is the one God gave. There is no coloring outside the lines on this. I appreciate that.

The screaming of the woman being raped. God expected the woman to scream for help. Would you agree?

Now would you also agree that God understands a man hearing the woman's cries for help would and should cause the man to go to the aid of the woman?

What do you think God had in mind once the man arrived on the scene to find the woman being raped by a man?

mcgyver
Jun 29th 2008, 02:32 PM
Let me ask a simple question, if I may.

This is addressed to those who have taken the stand of absolute non-violence/pacifism.

If there were an intruder in your house...or perhaps your neighbor's house...Would you call the Police/Sheriff?

Even to report the event after the fact?

fewarechosen
Jun 29th 2008, 02:38 PM
Well, actually no as I had one I directly posted to you. I reiterate here. But before I do, I do appreciate your reply and also your position. I believe it is where God has brought you in your walk with Him. The problem comes in when you and others claim our position to be contrary to God's word.

What I had asked earlier in the thread was for your honest thoughts on something. Here it is again.

In the OT God said that a woman being raped where her cries for help could be heard, but did not cry for help was guilty. But the woman being raped where her cries could not be heard was not guilty.

We re not concerned here with this being a law, a rule, a regulation or any such thing as that. Do not discount this because it is OT. On the contrary, it is the mind of God Himself. It is showing us a principle and the thinking of God.

Two requests: One is to answer each question as my post proceeds. Please answer each question and in the order you come to it. It is important. I'm working this through logically as I would if designing a program. And two, bear in mind that any answer you give cannot be an answer that could only be given today. In others words, when God inspired these words, there were no phones, no 911 to dial, no cop dispatch to call and so on. These words were long before such things. So saying I would call the cops doesn't work. Stay within the scenario completely. It is the one God gave. There is no coloring outside the lines on this. I appreciate that.

The screaming of the woman being raped. God expected the woman to scream for help. Would you agree?

Now would you also agree that God understands a man hearing the woman's cries for help would and should cause the man to go to the aid of the woman?

What do you think God had in mind once the man arrived on the scene to find the woman being raped by a man?

yes she is to scream for help -- absolutely

yes the man should aid the woman -- absolutely

the man is to do his best to help -- absolutely

now are there different degrees of right in the help ?

we could stab the man or something and kill him
we could tackle the dude and physically subdue him
we could cast the devil out of him say sin no more and send him on his way

all right to the person who has the ability to do his amount of right

that being said we still do not kill the person
the person might kill that man who is raping the woman, and in so doing would sin, and would have to repent.but god knows our heart and knows where we are at so he judges us accordingly.

but remember if we advocate for people to be able to kill and we help influence someones ideas to lean towards that. then we get the greater sin on us. then we must repent accordingly.

god forgives all sins -- even murder

but that doesnt mean we give anyone the ok to sin

EarlyCall
Jun 29th 2008, 03:37 PM
yes she is to scream for help -- absolutely

yes the man should aid the woman -- absolutely

the man is to do his best to help -- absolutely

now are there different degrees of right in the help ?

we could stab the man or something and kill him
we could tackle the dude and physically subdue him
we could cast the devil out of him say sin no more and send him on his way

all right to the person who has the ability to do his amount of right

that being said we still do not kill the person
the person might kill that man who is raping the woman, and in so doing would sin, and would have to repent.but god knows our heart and knows where we are at so he judges us accordingly.

but remember if we advocate for people to be able to kill and we help influence someones ideas to lean towards that. then we get the greater sin on us. then we must repent accordingly.

god forgives all sins -- even murder

but that doesnt mean we give anyone the ok to sin

First I want to say I really appreciate you responding and the manner in which you did. You addressed each and every question. I like to approach things in a linear fashion. It is the way I think. Thank you. :)

It is the mind of God I am after here.

Keep in mind God wrote these words long ago.

We know what God said: the woman should cry for help. We addressed what we believe God expects to follow and we did so because it is only reasonable for such things.

To recap what we can safely assume God expects:

1) A person or persons hearing the woman's cry for help should go to her aid

2) Said person or persons should stop the rapist

Those are both safe assumptions. We agree on that.

Can we assume God allows the killing of the rapist if that is what is required to make the rapist stop raping the woman?

Well, staying in the time God spoke the words, and for the moment lets' do that, does God say? Well, God does say to put the rapist to death, but we won't go there.

If we assume God wants the rapist stopped, and we can, then unless God says to the contrary, it is my belief, killing the rapist is acceptable if that is what it takes to stop him.

Now I've highlighted some of what you said above. This is weere I believe you began to interject things that go beyond what both God said and what we can safely assume.

Now I understand what and why. You began to draw on the NT. But, there was no NT then. So if we conclude that then it was ok to stop the rapist and by killing him if required, then we know the mind of God on the matter.

Did that change in the NT? Do we have anything at all that tells us that we cannot kill the rapist in order to stop him from raping a woman?

You believe we do have such scripture and I do not. Understood. But it raises the question for me as follows: Does God now consider a woman being raped in less need? Does God now expect us to do whatever we can to help the woman, but not kill the rapist if that is what it takes, and if that is what it takes to do what? Continue to watch? Walk away from it?

If you are correct, then God has put a woman being raped in a far worse situation than He had her prior to His showing us how much He loved us when He sent Jesus to die for us.

Seems contradictory to me. If nothing else, it seems to me God cares less now for the woman being raped than He did at one time.

So, my conclusion is that we can still kill that rapist if we must, and that of course is in defense of the woman, and thus it carries over into the defense of our family and even ourselves (to tie this into the thread).

I don't want to go back and forth on this, but I needed to follow up in order to bring my thoughts together. So I won't go on debating this scenario, but certainly if you want to reply, please do. And then I'll leave it go with you having the last word. I think you are entitled to a follow up reply. :)

Again, thank you for the thoughtful reply.

fewarechosen
Jun 29th 2008, 04:22 PM
First I want to say I really appreciate you responding and the manner in which you did. You addressed each and every question. I like to approach things in a linear fashion. It is the way I think. Thank you. :)

It is the mind of God I am after here.

Keep in mind God wrote these words long ago.

We know what God said: the woman should cry for help. We addressed what we believe God expects to follow and we did so because it is only reasonable for such things.

To recap what we can safely assume God expects:

1) A person or persons hearing the woman's cry for help should go to her aid

2) Said person or persons should stop the rapist

Those are both safe assumptions. We agree on that.

Can we assume God allows the killing of the rapist if that is what is required to make the rapist stop raping the woman?

Well, staying in the time God spoke the words, and for the moment lets' do that, does God say? Well, God does say to put the rapist to death, but we won't go there.

If we assume God wants the rapist stopped, and we can, then unless God says to the contrary, it is my belief, killing the rapist is acceptable if that is what it takes to stop him.

Now I've highlighted some of what you said above. This is weere I believe you began to interject things that go beyond what both God said and what we can safely assume.

Now I understand what and why. You began to draw on the NT. But, there was no NT then. So if we conclude that then it was ok to stop the rapist and by killing him if required, then we know the mind of God on the matter.

Did that change in the NT? Do we have anything at all that tells us that we cannot kill the rapist in order to stop him from raping a woman?

You believe we do have such scripture and I do not. Understood. But it raises the question for me as follows: Does God now consider a woman being raped in less need? Does God now expect us to do whatever we can to help the woman, but not kill the rapist if that is what it takes, and if that is what it takes to do what? Continue to watch? Walk away from it?

If you are correct, then God has put a woman being raped in a far worse situation than He had her prior to His showing us how much He loved us when He sent Jesus to die for us.

Seems contradictory to me. If nothing else, it seems to me God cares less now for the woman being raped than He did at one time.

So, my conclusion is that we can still kill that rapist if we must, and that of course is in defense of the woman, and thus it carries over into the defense of our family and even ourselves (to tie this into the thread).

I don't want to go back and forth on this, but I needed to follow up in order to bring my thoughts together. So I won't go on debating this scenario, but certainly if you want to reply, please do. And then I'll leave it go with you having the last word. I think you are entitled to a follow up reply. :)

Again, thank you for the thoughtful reply.


btw thanks for saying i could have the last say, i find it heartwarming for someone to even think that.

first off i dont even see us as debating now , perhaps we were before but we are onto something new now, so feel free to ask more questions or point out flaws as you see it.

now your right i sort of forgot you put it in frame of OT
that being said by all means the person was legally to be put to death.

now the difference as i see it now adays is the law is written in our hearts -in ot it wasnt so thats why they did the whole wash this dont wash that sacrifice this dont sacrifice that routine.

so its sort of like now we have been given greater power, and as such we have been given greater responsability

you asked this

Did that change in the NT? Do we have anything at all that tells us that we cannot kill the rapist in order to stop him from raping a woman?

great question and one i didnt even fully think about in this context.

and i whole heartedly say , yes it did change. he gave us a better way to deal with the rapist. he gave us the holy spirit which can vanquish the very evil inside the person.

if we have the ability to stop someone , again im all for it.
but lets say you are given the ability to stop them and heal them and help them change their heart ?

if you just stop them then you do a disservice because you also have the ability to help make them even better.
so now you have more responsability.

to whom much is given much is required, every man according to his ability.

also keep in mind, never do you see christ or his chosen after having the holy spirit take a sword to any man.
he was showing us a better way

also remember those with the holy spirit have a way greater responsability then those who do not.

you posted this also

Does God now expect us to do whatever we can to help the woman, but not kill the rapist if that is what it takes, and if that is what it takes to do what? Continue to watch? Walk away from it?

god expects even more of us now - he expects us to stop the rape and heal the rapist.


5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

enoch didnt even see death because of his faith

he is the rewarder - he will reward you for your faith,
he will push the demon clear from the rapist and he will stand up and help the woman up. he will scrub clean from her mind the horror of being raped. those are the things accomplished by faith and not things that can be accomplished with a gun.

so have faith that when that situation happens, not only will you stop the rape you will stop it without killing him and you will help heal him. god wants you to have that faith. he tells you to have that faith.

so fear no man -- have faith

edit -- and then remember faith without works is dead

and good convo by the way

cnw
Jun 29th 2008, 06:32 PM
Im sorry, who said anything about shooting an intruder meaning your afraid of the intruder...I will not fear what man can do unto me and I will shoot them if they pose a threat to my children...of course I will cry out to God first.

fewarechosen
Jun 29th 2008, 07:13 PM
Im sorry, who said anything about shooting an intruder meaning your afraid of the intruder...I will not fear what man can do unto me and I will shoot them if they pose a threat to my children...of course I will cry out to God first.

??????

so then you are afraid of what they might do to your child. which makes you afraid of him

andrewanderson
Jun 30th 2008, 12:27 AM
Okay, way to much posting in here since last night.
I have neither the time or the desire to read all this and keep up with the thread so I am unsubscribing.
Thanks for the intellectual debate and good luck to both sides and the debate continues.

andrewanderson
Jun 30th 2008, 12:28 AM
****** Unsubscribe *******

cnw
Jun 30th 2008, 03:04 AM
no fear is not on my mind at any cost...just pretty much matter of fact. I was trained that way. Nothing here has changed my minset to it being wrong to shooting an intruder.

Ecumaniac
Jul 3rd 2008, 01:22 AM
Could I shoot a burglar? Probably. Who knows what a person might do when scared?

Would I shoot a burglar? I hope not.

Should I shoot a burglar? No. Jesus says, do not resist the evildoer. I believe that He generally gives good advice, so why should I doubt Him now? :)

I will note that in Britain, it is illegal to assault an intruder in one's own home unless they have shown clear signs of violent intent. Thus, I would be breaking the law of the land as well as the law of God.

dan
Jul 3rd 2008, 03:17 AM
Could I shoot a burglar? Probably. Who knows what a person might do when scared?

Would I shoot a burglar? I hope not.

Should I shoot a burglar? No. Jesus says, do not resist the evildoer. I believe that He generally gives good advice, so why should I doubt Him now? :)

I will note that in Britain, it is illegal to assault an intruder in one's own home unless they have shown clear signs of violent intent. Thus, I would be breaking the law of the land as well as the law of God.

...Said:

MT 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

MT 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [Him].

And if you seek out The Father you find:

AMOS 9:10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.

IS 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

DAN 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
DAN 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
DAN 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
DAN 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Ecumaniac
Jul 3rd 2008, 12:42 PM
MT 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

MT 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [Him].

The passages you follow this with are from the Old Testament, written purposely to a people who lived under the Mosaic Law. If Jesus says something which runs counter to what is written in the Old Testament, we obey Jesus.

And if you seek out Jesus, you will find:


"Go! I am sending you out like lambs surrounded by wolves."—Luke 10:3

Concerning the importance of possessions, He said:


"No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Isn’t there more to life than food and more to the body than clothing?"—Matthew 6:24, 25

How do we respond to those who do evil, or try to take our possessions?


"You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer. But whoever strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well. And if someone wants to sue you and to take your tunic, give him your coat also."—Matthew 5:38–40

When Peter tried to defend Him from arrest by striking a man with a sword, He healed the man and rebuked His disciple thus:


"Then Jesus said to him, 'Put your sword back in its place! For all who take hold of the sword will die by the sword."—Matthew 26:52

The assertion that Jesus intends for us to respond violently to those who do evil is anomalous.

jewel4Christ
Jul 3rd 2008, 01:29 PM
he is the rewarder - he will reward you for your faith,
he will push the demon clear from the rapist and he will stand up and help the woman up. he will scrub clean from her mind the horror of being raped. those are the things accomplished by faith and not things that can be accomplished with a gun.

so have faith that when that situation happens, not only will you stop the rape you will stop it without killing him and you will help heal him. god wants you to have that faith. he tells you to have that faith.

so fear no man -- have faith

edit -- and then remember faith without works is dead

and good convo by the wayI have an example of how this has worked in my own life.

My sister was married to a "brute". He was an alchoholic, and abused her physically, every chance he got.

She left him and moved in with me.

One night, he came pounding on my door, and I told my sister to go into the bedroom and lock the door, that God would handle this.

I opened the door.

My brother in law, had a gun, and put it to the screen door, and said, let me in, or I will shoot you.

I looked him square in the eye, and said:

"if you shoot me and kill me, you will be free to come in and shoot and kill my sister also., which will then allow you to keep going down this path of destruction you are on."

He said, "huh?"

I told him that I was not afraid of his gun, and that he could go ahead and shoot me...because I was not opening the door. I told him that I loved him, and, that I loved him enough to tell him the truth.

He said, something to the effect of "what are you talking about".

I told him that I would not help him do his evil..I would not open the door and let him in to kill my sister.

He would have to kill me first, if that was his choice.

He said, "you are not afraid of this gun?"

I said no.

He left.

The next day, he called me and thanked me for taking a stand that made him think.

He is now one of my best friends.

Now, some will say, "well, it could of happened differently", and to that I say yes, it could..but, the fact of the matter is that I took the road that God led me at the moment, and it still worked for HIS GOOD.

We can say "what if" all we want, but I do believe that when you take the RIGHT stand, only good can come of it.

If you take the wrong stand, good may work from it, but it will be harder for God to work it out, and, it will involve many others undergoing the same hardships to do so.

That is my opinion.

I believe that I acted in faith.

That faith brought forth good fruit.

In my example, if I had acted in the same faith and shot my brother in law before he had a chance to shoot me, and my sister, their would of been a loss of life. In this case, the loss of life would of been someone that had no hope for life...for he was not a christian..and, it would of mattered little if he shot me, because as a christian, death does not hold me..I live. If he would of shot me and then came in and killed my sister, whom was also not a christian, again, a death would of came to someone whom was not a christian...and, the enemy would of won yet another "soul".

So, the only right outcome, is for me to do the only thing that could save any death from occurring, and that was to walk by faith that God would use me to prick my brother in law's heart by showing no fear, or no value to this physical life, because this is how the gospel itself is presented to non believers. It is the power of salvation and, it does have power.

In my opinion, any other way denies that power, but that is just my opinion...but, we are all learning this, at different rates. That is why we cannot judge one another on how we view this, because ultimately only God can reveal these things to us all...anyways. He does not reap from one 'person' what He has not sown in them.

He only reaps in us each what our own faith entails.

Yet, many confuse the issues and think that we are saying we judge them.

That is not the case.

peaceandlove,

janet

Clavicula_Nox
Jul 3rd 2008, 01:34 PM
Without reading too many posts in this thread, I'm wondering if the "anti-shoot" crowd assumes that the "pro-shoot" crowd would be shooting to kill? Any half-decent firer with a basic understanding of anatomy can bring someone down without causing permanent or fatal damage. At that point, if the authorities haven't already been contacted, they can be and the situation is dealt with. No loss of life, and someone receives a very good lesson in why they shouldn't do the wrong thing.

jewel4Christ
Jul 3rd 2008, 01:44 PM
Without reading too many posts in this thread, I'm wondering if the "anti-shoot" crowd assumes that the "pro-shoot" crowd would be shooting to kill? Any half-decent firer with a basic understanding of anatomy can bring someone down without causing permanent or fatal damage. At that point, if the authorities haven't already been contacted, they can be and the situation is dealt with. No loss of life, and someone receives a very good lesson in why they shouldn't do the wrong thing.

I think that is a very good point! :idea:..thanks

peaceandlove,

janet

HisLeast
Jul 3rd 2008, 01:50 PM
We can spiritualize it all we want, but in the end God has told us we are GUILTLESS if we kill someone coming into our homes to do harm or theft. I praise God for the miraculous events some have experienced in turning away wrongdoers with a word, but that isn't always going to be the case. All the same, I'm glad it turned out the way it did for you.

As for me, no amount of your disdain or implications of cowardice will change the fact that G-d Allmighty assigns no guilt in such situations to the home defender. (Reference Fenris' post - Exodus 22: "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed").

If God assigns no guilt in these situations, how much more so should you?

fewarechosen
Jul 3rd 2008, 01:52 PM
I have an example of how this has worked in my own life.

My sister was married to a "brute". He was an alchoholic, and abused her physically, every chance he got.

She left him and moved in with me.

One night, he came pounding on my door, and I told my sister to go into the bedroom and lock the door, that God would handle this.

I opened the door.

My brother in law, had a gun, and put it to the screen door, and said, let me in, or I will shoot you.

I looked him square in the eye, and said:

"if you shoot me and kill me, you will be free to come in and shoot and kill my sister also., which will then allow you to keep going down this path of destruction you are on."

He said, "huh?"

I told him that I was not afraid of his gun, and that he could go ahead and shoot me...because I was not opening the door. I told him that I loved him, and, that I loved him enough to tell him the truth.

He said, something to the effect of "what are you talking about".

I told him that I would not help him do his evil..I would not open the door and let him in to kill my sister.

He would have to kill me first, if that was his choice.

He said, "you are not afraid of this gun?"

I said no.

He left.

The next day, he called me and thanked me for taking a stand that made him think.

He is now one of my best friends.

Now, some will say, "well, it could of happened differently", and to that I say yes, it could..but, the fact of the matter is that I took the road that God led me at the moment, and it still worked for HIS GOOD.

We can say "what if" all we want, but I do believe that when you take the RIGHT stand, only good can come of it.

If you take the wrong stand, good may work from it, but it will be harder for God to work it out, and, it will involve many others undergoing the same hardships to do so.

That is my opinion.

I believe that I acted in faith.

That faith brought forth good fruit.

In my example, if I had acted in the same faith and shot my brother in law before he had a chance to shoot me, and my sister, their would of been a loss of life. In this case, the loss of life would of been someone that had no hope for life...for he was not a christian..and, it would of mattered little if he shot me, because as a christian, death does not hold me..I live. If he would of shot me and then came in and killed my sister, whom was also not a christian, again, a death would of came to someone whom was not a christian...and, the enemy would of won yet another "soul".

So, the only right outcome, is for me to do the only thing that could save any death from occurring, and that was to walk by faith that God would use me to prick my brother in law's heart by showing no fear, or no value to this physical life, because this is how the gospel itself is presented to non believers. It is the power of salvation and, it does have power.

In my opinion, any other way denies that power, but that is just my opinion...but, we are all learning this, at different rates. That is why we cannot judge one another on how we view this, because ultimately only God can reveal these things to us all...anyways. He does not reap from one 'person' what He has not sown in them.

He only reaps in us each what our own faith entails.

Yet, many confuse the issues and think that we are saying we judge them.

That is not the case.

peaceandlove,

janet


that just makes me smile , what more can i say ;)

Slug1
Jul 3rd 2008, 01:57 PM
Without reading too many posts in this thread, I'm wondering if the "anti-shoot" crowd assumes that the "pro-shoot" crowd would be shooting to kill? Any half-decent firer with a basic understanding of anatomy can bring someone down without causing permanent or fatal damage. At that point, if the authorities haven't already been contacted, they can be and the situation is dealt with. No loss of life, and someone receives a very good lesson in why they shouldn't do the wrong thing.Sound effects work even better. Nothing like an intruder in a dark home and from the staircase they hear a pump shotgun charging a round. If they mean harm, they'll stay and advance and find it coming at them behind a bright orange flash aimed at them. If they didn't mean harm in anyway that sound alone will make them back off and leave.


That is my opinion.

I believe that I acted in faith.

That faith brought forth good fruit.

Janet, in a dangerous situation you must present yourself as a "hard target" and what you did in your testimony above is present yourself as a hard target. He wasn't "determined" and your standing up to him had the same effect as someone charging a round into a pump shotgun. However, an opponent that is determined to mean harm will not be stopped by a hard target in any example of the word. You, that door, and the bathroom door would not stop a determined crook. There are people out there with "hardened hearts" and everything you said will fall on deaf ears and killing you will only make their heart harder until someone takes them down before thay can kill or harm others.

Determining who is not determined vs. one who is, is the hard part... I'm prepared to deal with either.

Ones that are not determined, will be led to people like you to hear and have a seed planted (that's why I repped ya!). People with hardened hearts will be led to me and warriors like me, to be used by God as an avenger. God has placed us on different paths and uses us in different ways as He see's fit for His purpose and for His Glory even when we don't understand it. We are just obedient to God's will.

That is my opinion.

Clavicula_Nox
Jul 3rd 2008, 02:32 PM
Yeah, the hard target thing is a good psychological de-motivator to an aggressor. Many criminals prey on weakness, and shy away from acts of strength. Some, though, do not.

jewel4Christ
Jul 3rd 2008, 02:36 PM
We can spiritualize it all we want, but in the end God has told us we are GUILTLESS if we kill someone coming into our homes to do harm or theft. I praise God for the miraculous events some have experienced in turning away wrongdoers with a word, but that isn't always going to be the case. All the same, I'm glad it turned out the way it did for you.

As for me, no amount of your disdain or implications of cowardice will change the fact that G-d Allmighty assigns no guilt in such situations to the home defender. (Reference Fenris' post - Exodus 22: "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed").

If God assigns no guilt in these situations, how much more so should you?
http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1695763)


Hi,

It all boils down to what form of law you follow...the letter, or the spirit.
I agree, you are not guilty, if you do not know any better. If you do, though, you are...at least that is how I read the new covenant on it.

God does not reap where He has not sown, He takes into account where we are in the Lord...just as if I committed a sin, and did not realise it, through ignorance of the true intent of the new covenant law, I would not be held accountable to that ignorance..but, IF I sinned wilfully, after knowing the difference, I would be judged more strictly.

There have been many times in my life when another christian has pointed out something I have done, that I did not realise was not according to the will of God...and, I respectfully, looked at it, with an open mind, and then repented of it, once I realised it was wrong.

God uses us that way, in mho...none of us has full understanding, and I do not agree that the old covenant letter is the same as the new covenant law of the spirit.

peaceandlove,

janet

Ecumaniac
Jul 3rd 2008, 02:37 PM
Without reading too many posts in this thread, I'm wondering if the "anti-shoot" crowd assumes that the "pro-shoot" crowd would be shooting to kill? Any half-decent firer with a basic understanding of anatomy can bring someone down without causing permanent or fatal damage.

Personally, since I have never fired a gun, I work under the assumption that if I shoot at someone, I could very well kill them.

As for whether or not it's OK to shoot to injure… I'm not sure how much I agree with the theology of Firefly's Shepherd Book. ;)


Zoë: Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killin'?
Book: Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps.

jewel4Christ
Jul 3rd 2008, 02:39 PM
Hi Slug,


Janet, in a dangerous situation you must present yourself as a "hard target" and what you did in your testimony above is present yourself as a hard target. He wasn't "determined" and your standing up to him had the same effect as someone charging a round into a pump shotgun. However, an opponent that is determined to mean harm will not be stopped by a hard target in any example of the word. You, that door, and the bathroom door would not stop a determined crook. There are people out there with "hardened hearts" and everything you said will fall on deaf ears and killing you will only make their heart harder until someone takes them down before thay can kill or harm others.

Determining who is not determined vs. one who is, is the hard part... I'm prepared to deal with either.

Ones that are not determined, will be led to people like you to hear and have a seed planted (that's why I repped ya!). People with hardened hearts will be led to me and warriors like me, to be used by God as an avenger. God has placed us on different paths and uses us in different ways as He see's fit for His purpose and for His Glory even when we don't understand it. We are just obedient to God's will.

That is my opinion. http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1695775)

The bible says only God can read a heart of man.

I would have to leave that alone for Him.

peaceandlove,

janet

Clavicula_Nox
Jul 3rd 2008, 02:44 PM
Personally, since I have never fired a gun, I work under the assumption that if I shot at someone, I could very well kill them.

As for whether or not it's OK to shoot to injure… I'm not sure how much I agree with the theology of Firefly's Shepherd Book. ;)

It's entirely possible that 1 shot may = 1 kill, but it's very very unlikely. I have personally fired on an individual, scoring 5-6 hits center mass which didn't drop him. It did prove to be fatal, but after a protracted game of hide and seek in the streets and alleyways of Al-Qaim. If he hadn't run off, not that I blame him, our medical personnel probably could have saved his life, despite the fact that his injuries were quite severe.

Too long;didn't read: It's hard to kill someone with a firearm, especially if you don't know what you're doing.

HisLeast
Jul 3rd 2008, 02:56 PM
It all boils down to what form of law you follow...the letter, or the spirit.
I agree, you are not guilty, if you do not know any better. If you do, though, you are...at least that is how I read the new covenant on it.

God does not reap where He has not sown, He takes into account where we are in the Lord...just as if I committed a sin, and did not realise it, through ignorance of the true intent of the new covenant law, I would not be held accountable to that ignorance..but, IF I sinned wilfully, after knowing the difference, I would be judged more strictly.

There have been many times in my life when another christian has pointed out something I have done, that I did not realise was not according to the will of God...and, I respectfully, looked at it, with an open mind, and then repented of it, once I realised it was wrong.

God uses us that way, in mho...none of us has full understanding, and I do not agree that the old covenant letter is the same as the new covenant law of the spirit.

Its not a question of me being ignorant of the spirit of the law. God says NO GUILT. NONE. He's not saying "no guilt unless you're aware that you're breaking another layer of the law that you have no comprehension of".

But if we do want to talk about the ultimate spirit of the law (love God and love your neighbour), my position still stands as a lawfull one: by the letter and by the spirit. Because had that drunkard managed to batter down our door this winter and follow through on his threats of harm, I would be caught between two competing needs: #1) the need of the assailant to hear a message of reason and #2) the need of my wife for safety. As husband it is my duty to love and protect my wife, and I therefore haven't the luxury to endanger her by welcoming an assailant into our home. THAT is part and parcel of loving your neighbour.

jewel4Christ
Jul 3rd 2008, 05:23 PM
We are to love His ways, above our own ways. He has said, "he whom loves his earthly "house" more than Him, are not wholly correct.

So, we must agree to disagree..;)

Clavicula_Nox
Jul 3rd 2008, 05:57 PM
We are to love His ways, above our own ways. He has said, "he whom loves his earthly "house" more than Him, are not wholly correct.

So, we must agree to disagree..;)

So then what does the verse from Exodus mean? It seems pretty clear to me.

theleast
Jul 3rd 2008, 11:42 PM
When you are armored with the Holy Ghost then you have all the protection you need.

What good is a gun against the Spirit?

Slug1
Jul 4th 2008, 12:13 AM
When you are armored with the Holy Ghost then you have all the protection you need.

What good is a gun against the Spirit?When your enemy is aiming an AK-47 at you and about to pull the trigger then pulling your trigger first protects you and your loved ones also.

Although I do know what you mean and have experienced divine protection. In Iraq I was fired upon by an insurgent with an AK-47 on full automatic and I was about 20 feet away from him, not a scratch as I was protected.

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 12:37 AM
When your enemy is aiming an AK-47 at you and about to pull the trigger then pulling your trigger first protects you and your loved ones also.



Yeah but the point is, with God on my side I won't even have to worry about that.

It's all about Faith at the end of the day.

Slug1
Jul 4th 2008, 12:42 AM
Yeah but the point is, with God on my side I won't even have to worry about that.

It's all about Faith at the end of the day.Amen! I praised God after every day returning from a mission and after every victory I had in combat. God put me their so I thanked Him for allowing me to fulfill my purpose.

HisLeast
Jul 4th 2008, 01:33 AM
Yeah but the point is, with God on my side I won't even have to worry about that.

It's all about Faith at the end of the day.

Sure, I won't have to worry about it for my own sake. But take one look in my wife's eyes when she's saying "what are we going to do?" without saying a word....

Its a conflict, and my duty to my wife and family supersedes my duty to the lost who have, by God's own law, voluntarily forfeited their lives.

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 03:50 AM
Sure, I won't have to worry about it for my own sake. But take one look in my wife's eyes when she's saying "what are we going to do?" without saying a word....

Its a conflict, and my duty to my wife and family supersedes my duty to the lost who have, by God's own law, voluntarily forfeited their lives.

Is it?

The scripture says to be harmless as doves. It says to turn the other cheek. It says to trust in God in all things.

Why do you need a gun to protect you when God says he will.

Christ asked forgiveness for those who perseceuted him. He was our example. We are to do no less.

Slug1
Jul 4th 2008, 11:20 AM
Is it?

The scripture says to be harmless as doves. It says to turn the other cheek. It says to trust in God in all things.

Why do you need a gun to protect you when God says he will.

Christ asked forgiveness for those who perseceuted him. He was our example. We are to do no less.He does protect you, He sends in police and military to do the protecting and He uses them as avengers... He even refers to them as Ministers of God.

Fenris
Jul 4th 2008, 12:04 PM
He does protect you, He sends in police and military to do the protecting and He uses them as avengers... He even refers to them as Ministers of God.
Look in the book of Esther, chapter 4. "Who knows? Maybe it was for just such an occasion that you were made queen!"

Wherever you go, God has put you right there to carry out a mission. Not to pray. To do.

God bless you Slug, who truly is a minister of God.

Vhayes
Jul 4th 2008, 12:50 PM
Is it?

The scripture says to be harmless as doves. It says to turn the other cheek. It says to trust in God in all things.

Why do you need a gun to protect you when God says he will.

Christ asked forgiveness for those who perseceuted him. He was our example. We are to do no less.
Then maybe we should trust God to feed us as well and refuse to work.

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 12:57 PM
He does protect you, He sends in police and military to do the protecting and He uses them as avengers... He even refers to them as Ministers of God.

Why do I need police or military to protect me.

Are they more effective than the Holy Spirit?

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 12:58 PM
Then maybe we should trust God to feed us as well and refuse to work.

You should trust in God to feed you as well, but as for refusing to work...well we do have to labor.

We must labor for the Lord to be found worthy to enter into his rest.

Slug1
Jul 4th 2008, 01:00 PM
Why do I need police or military to protect me.

Are they more effective than the Holy Spirit?It's the Holy Spirit who moves me to protect people like you. It is the Holy Spirit who has placed in my heart a desire to even lay down my life if it's needed to protect citizens. I praise God each day for the path He placed me on and be used the way that He uses me as a warrior. I am obedient to God's will in my life and He has sustained me and blessed me as I bow down to His will for me.

Fenris
Jul 4th 2008, 01:00 PM
Why do I need police or military to protect me.

Are they more effective than the Holy Spirit?
They are carrying out God's will in protecting you.

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 01:45 PM
It's the Holy Spirit who moves me to protect people like you. It is the Holy Spirit who has placed in my heart a desire to even lay down my life if it's needed to protect citizens. I praise God each day for the path He placed me on and be used the way that He uses me as a warrior. I am obedient to God's will in my life and He has sustained me and blessed me as I bow down to His will for me.

Please slug1 no offense brother but I don't need police or military protection.

I have the Holy Spirit and God on my side.

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 01:46 PM
They are carrying out God's will in protecting you.

God has already given me the Holy Spirit that dwells within me as protection.

What need have I of a bodyguard? Is there a bodyguard greater than the Holy Ghost?

Brother Mark
Jul 4th 2008, 01:51 PM
Please slug1 no offense brother but I don't need police or military protection.

I have the Holy Spirit and God on my side.

God gave them for that purpose. When God worked to protect Israel, he did so through the Holy Spirit operating and empowering David to use a sling.

He does the same today.

Slug1
Jul 4th 2008, 01:52 PM
Please slug1 no offense brother but I don't need police or military protection.

I have the Holy Spirit and God on my side.;) Tell me, when a neighbor is being burgled or worse, how will the Holy Spirit in you protect them? Will you pray for them or do what God authorized us to do and protect them through a Minister of God... call the police and then continue to pray?

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 02:11 PM
;) Tell me, when a neighbor is being burgled or worse, how will the Holy Spirit in you protect them? Will you pray for them or do what God authorized us to do and protect them through a Minister of God... call the police and then continue to pray?

God will give me in that hour what to say to the burglar.

Slug1
Jul 4th 2008, 02:12 PM
God will give me in that hour what to say to the burglar.Don't forget to inform him the police have been called and are on the way ;)

Brother Mark
Jul 4th 2008, 02:16 PM
God will give me in that hour what to say to the burglar.

Maybe he will put the Holy Spirit upon you and give you great strength as he did Samson. Then you could overpower the burglar with violence if someone else was threatened. God does do that sort of thing. Or as Slug mentioned, perhaps he will give you the words to call the police.

Slug1
Jul 4th 2008, 02:23 PM
Maybe he will put the Holy Spirit upon you and give you great strength as he did Samson. Then you could overpower the burglar with violence if someone else was threatened. God does do that sort of thing. Or as Slug mentioned, perhaps he will give you the words to call the police.I only think God would give strength to those willing to be obedient and will then do the violence that God wills them to do.

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 02:25 PM
Maybe he will put the Holy Spirit upon you and give you great strength as he did Samson. Then you could overpower the burglar with violence if someone else was threatened. God does do that sort of thing. Or as Slug mentioned, perhaps he will give you the words to call the police.

Or better yet I can cast the demon out of him with the Holy Spirit saving the life of my neighbor...and the life of the would be burglar, turning a lost sheep back into the fold and everybody wins.

That's what the Word can do.

Seeker of truth
Jul 4th 2008, 02:26 PM
It's the Holy Spirit who moves me to protect people like you. It is the Holy Spirit who has placed in my heart a desire to even lay down my life if it's needed to protect citizens. I praise God each day for the path He placed me on and be used the way that He uses me as a warrior. I am obedient to God's will in my life and He has sustained me and blessed me as I bow down to His will for me.

What an awsome testimony Slug! I thank you for protecting us :hug:

Would I shoot someone who broke into my home with the intent to steal? I'd tell them to take what they wanted. Material posessions may be replaced.

If they threatened the safty of my children? Yes, I'd shoot them in a heartbeat. I would most likely experience much pain over this and drop to my knees in prayer, but I have to protect my family.

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 02:28 PM
Make no mistake dear brothers. I also am a warrior.

My sword is the sword of Truth that dwells within me, given me from the Father, possible through Christs sacrifice.

I will war with any who disputes the truth, and you will see me warring on many fronts.

My weapons are knowledge, wisdom, charity, love, and virtue.

But most importantly of all....Faith. With faith Christ said we can move mountains. What small matter then would it be to stop a bullet? Or even better, not have to face one?

Seeker of truth
Jul 4th 2008, 02:32 PM
Make no mistake dear brothers. I also am a warrior.

My sword is the sword of Truth that dwells within me, given me from the Father, possible through Christs sacrifice.

I will war with any who disputes the truth, and you will see me warring on many fronts.

My weapons are knowledge, wisdom, charity, love, and virtue.

But most importantly of all....Faith. With faith Christ said we can move mountains. What small matter then would it be to stop a bullet? Or even better, not have to face one?

I believe the same applies to about all of us here. Some of us feel He expects us to help ourselves as well. He is always with us, even when we pick up that gun to defend our loved ones.

Brother Mark
Jul 4th 2008, 02:35 PM
Or better yet I can cast the demon out of him with the Holy Spirit saving the life of my neighbor...and the life of the would be burglar, turning a lost sheep back into the fold and everybody wins.

That's what the Word can do.

Only if there is repentance. Cast a demon out of him with no repentance and it will come back with 7 more worse than he is and his latter state will be worse than his former state.

No getting around that God endorses violence in scripture. He ordered it. It's there. The Godhead has ordered destruction many times and will do so again. It's not his preference but it is certainly something he has done and will do.

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 02:40 PM
Only if there is repentance. Cast a demon out of him with no repentance and it will come back with 7 more worse than he is and his latter state will be worse than his former state.

No getting around that God endorses violence in scripture. He ordered it. It's there. The Godhead has ordered destruction many times and will do so again. It's not his preference but it is certainly something he has done and will do.

Understanding that then get ready for the judgement that will befall the Earth shortly. For that will be unprecendented violence fulfilled in your eyes.

Be careful which covenent you adhere to for that is the covenent wherewith you will be judged.

Slug1
Jul 4th 2008, 02:42 PM
Make no mistake dear brothers. I also am a warrior.

My sword is the sword of Truth that dwells within me, given me from the Father, possible through Christs sacrifice.

I will war with any who disputes the truth, and you will see me warring on many fronts.

My weapons are knowledge, wisdom, charity, love, and virtue.

But most importantly of all....Faith. With faith Christ said we can move mountains. What small matter then would it be to stop a bullet? Or even better, not have to face one?I agree with you on this as God uses all means for His Glory.

Mark already brought out what I was gonna say... casting out a demon from an unsaved person is not always the best thing to do for them. Binding maybe, until the police get there but to remove the demon and the man remains unrepentant... he'll be much worse off afterwards.

Brother Mark
Jul 4th 2008, 02:45 PM
Understanding that then get ready for the judgement that will befall the Earth shortly. For that will be unprecendented violence fulfilled in your eyes.

Be careful which covenent you adhere to for that is the covenent wherewith you will be judged.

The covenants changed but not the character of God. He's still the same God that ordered Saul to destroy all the amalekites. And he's still the same God that said that if the strongman of the house was aware of a burglar, then the thief would not be able to steal.

Luke 12:39

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
KJV

A goodman does not allow his house to be thieved.

EarlyCall
Jul 4th 2008, 03:17 PM
The covenants changed but not the character of God. He's still the same God that ordered Saul to destroy all the amalekites. And he's still the same God that said that if the strongman of the house was aware of a burglar, then the thief would not be able to steal.

Luke 12:39

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
KJV

A goodman does not allow his house to be thieved.

And still some will pretend this verse doesn't mean you do what you have to do to stop them. They will pretend it means you pray or preach or sing or anything but they will put limits on it - though none are given. And others will simply pretend the verse doesn't exist because it contradicts what they claim. Proving that some cannot even be reached not only through sound reasoning but even the very word of God because they value their own opinion more highly.

Nevertheless, the scripture you've given here is evidence enough since they would cast out the OT word of God altogether.

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 04:51 PM
I agree with you on this as God uses all means for His Glory.

Mark already brought out what I was gonna say... casting out a demon from an unsaved person is not always the best thing to do for them. Binding maybe, until the police get there but to remove the demon and the man remains unrepentant... he'll be much worse off afterwards.

That is true, but then I guess Christ and the apostles should have thought of that too before they cast out demons eh?

Or do you think perhaps they had responsibility for them even after the work? ;)

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 04:56 PM
The covenants changed but not the character of God. He's still the same God that ordered Saul to destroy all the amalekites. And he's still the same God that said that if the strongman of the house was aware of a burglar, then the thief would not be able to steal.

Luke 12:39

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
KJV

A goodman does not allow his house to be thieved.

It's kind of fitting that we use parables of the end times to make our arguments for our wordly goods, but what the heck, I'll play along.

How does the goodman watch????

He serves God.

How does one serve God?

Follow the two commandments we have been given.


Why do you guys insist on protecting all your wordly treasures that are worthless, and will be burned up on the day of judgement? Store yourself treasures in heaven, and God will protect you and those you love.

Not some silly weapon of mans, but a true weapon in God.

Brother Mark
Jul 4th 2008, 05:02 PM
It's kind of fitting that we use parables of the end times to make our arguments for our wordly goods, but what the heck, I'll play along.

How does the goodman watch????

He serves God.

How does one serve God?

Follow the two commandments we have been given.


Why do you guys insist on protecting all your wordly treasures that are worthless, and will be burned up on the day of judgement? Store yourself treasures in heaven, and God will protect you and those you love.

Not some silly weapon of mans, but a true weapon in God.

If you read the whole thread, you will know it's not about protecting material wealth but rather those that could be hurt. God taught us with David how one full of the Holy Spirit can use a rock and a sling, that which you called a silly weapon, to bring down a giant.

No matter how hard one tries, the OT doesn't go away. God's commands towards providing for his family is new testament as well and protection is something that should be provided.

Slug1
Jul 4th 2008, 05:03 PM
That is true, but then I guess Christ and the apostles should have thought of that too before they cast out demons eh?

Or do you think perhaps they had responsibility for them even after the work? ;):D Awesome post!!! :hmm:

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 05:22 PM
If you read the whole thread, you will know it's not about protecting material wealth but rather those that could be hurt. God taught us with David how one full of the Holy Spirit can use a rock and a sling, that which you called a silly weapon, to bring down a giant.

No matter how hard one tries, the OT doesn't go away. God's commands towards providing for his family is new testament as well and protection is something that should be provided.

I agree the OT doesn't go away, just the old covenent. Protection will be provided to you by your faith in God.

Brother Mark
Jul 4th 2008, 05:26 PM
I agree the OT doesn't go away, just the old covenent. Protection will be provided to you by your faith in God.

Correct. That was what David understood that Saul did not. It was his faith in God and his covenant with God that allowed and empowered him to defeat Goliath with a stone and a sling. It was what enabled and empowered Samson to war against the Philistines. God filled these men with his Spirit so as to enable them to do those mighty acts of war and defense.

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 05:51 PM
Correct. That was what David understood that Saul did not. It was his faith in God and his covenant with God that allowed and empowered him to defeat Goliath with a stone and a sling. It was what enabled and empowered Samson to war against the Philistines. God filled these men with his Spirit so as to enable them to do those mighty acts of war and defense.

The Spirit came upon them in the OT differently than it does in the NT. Perhaps that would make a good discussion in another thread.

It's still different.

Now put down your flimsy sling and buy yourself a sword that only Christs sacrifice can give. The sword of truth whose blade is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Brother Mark
Jul 4th 2008, 05:54 PM
The Spirit came upon them in the OT differently than it does in the NT. Perhaps that would make a good discussion in another thread.

It's still different.

Now put down your flimsy sling and buy yourself a sword that only Christs sacrifice can give. The sword of truth whose blade is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 13 doesn't instruct to put down the sling. The Holy Spirit is now in us and on us. In the OT, he didn't reside in man as he does now. But till God tells government to put down the sword, it would be disobedient for governments to do so.

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 08:03 PM
Romans 13 doesn't instruct to put down the sling. The Holy Spirit is now in us and on us. In the OT, he didn't reside in man as he does now. But till God tells government to put down the sword, it would be disobedient for governments to do so.

Your right he didn't say put down the sword, he said pick up a sword.

Which sword?

The sword of truth.

How do you come by this sword?

Follow Christs two commandments.

Which commandments?

The ones that tell us to love.

Vhayes
Jul 4th 2008, 08:04 PM
And how is it showing love to a child to stand by and watch them be raped or beaten?

EarlyCall
Jul 4th 2008, 08:21 PM
And how is it showing love to a child to stand by and watch them be raped or beaten?

I;m very interested to see how phaeton and others of this thinking will answer this - if they don't pretend to not notice your post.

Clavicula_Nox
Jul 4th 2008, 09:04 PM
I;m very interested to see how phaeton and others of this thinking will answer this - if they don't pretend to not notice your post.

Which is similar to how I questioned the dismissal of the verse in Exodus Hisleast, brought up, and was summarily ignored. I think it's sickening how some Christians want to rely on non-believers to do their dirty work when it comes to physical protection, and it makes me question the years I spent putting my life in danger for the benefit of others who simply couldn't care less and dismiss it. It especially sickens me when it comes from people who live cushy lives unchallenged by danger and risk.

evrgreenjhawk
Jul 4th 2008, 09:45 PM
It especially sickens me when it comes from people who live cushy lives unchallenged by danger and risk.

The US Army just celebrated its 35th fully Volunteer year of service. Not all "cushy lives" are just handed out either. Many civilians face danger and risk everyday just to provide themselves and their families with the very things military is afforded for their service. Housing, food, medical, education....

I spent the first 13 years of my life in the Army and I fully appreciate and respect those who CHOOSE to serve, but it hardens me to those who do and suggest that I sit in a cushy life simply because they handed it to me by protecting it.

Peace and thanks!

Clavicula_Nox
Jul 4th 2008, 11:05 PM
The US Army just celebrated its 35th fully Volunteer year of service. Not all "cushy lives" are just handed out either. Many civilians face danger and risk everyday just to provide themselves and their families with the very things military is afforded for their service. Housing, food, medical, education....

I spent the first 13 years of my life in the Army and I fully appreciate and respect those who CHOOSE to serve, but it hardens me to those who do and suggest that I sit in a cushy life simply because they handed it to me by protecting it.

Peace and thanks!
I don't mean to say that anyone who doesn't serve lives an easy life, that is certainly not the case and not what I was going for.

EarlyCall
Jul 4th 2008, 11:06 PM
Which is similar to how I questioned the dismissal of the verse in Exodus Hisleast, brought up, and was summarily ignored. I think it's sickening how some Christians want to rely on non-believers to do their dirty work when it comes to physical protection, and it makes me question the years I spent putting my life in danger for the benefit of others who simply couldn't care less and dismiss it. It especially sickens me when it comes from people who live cushy lives unchallenged by danger and risk.

Yes that and a couple others I think. Maybe they can't answer these tough questions and so pretend they never see them. But we know they do see them.

If I should ever need to call on someone to help me defend against some attacker, my hope is someone such as yourself will be there.

evrgreenjhawk
Jul 4th 2008, 11:29 PM
I don't mean to say that anyone who doesn't serve lives an easy life, that is certainly not the case and not what I was going for.

I did not think so personally, but some easily could have taken it that way and to be honest it is the impression many who serve leave me with by similar statements.

I do think it is a lack of communication and understanding on both sides.

Clavicula_Nox
Jul 4th 2008, 11:31 PM
I did not think so personally, but some easily could have taken it that way and to be honest it is the impression many who serve leave me with by similar statements.

I do think it is a lack of communication and understanding on both sides.

I agree, my wording was a bit lacking, thanks for calling me on it.

Ecumaniac
Jul 5th 2008, 02:36 AM
Exodus 22: "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed[.]"

How do Christians respond to this verse? The same as we respond to Leviticus 3:17—"This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live: You must not eat any fat or any blood." That is, when Jesus' teachings go against the grain of Jewish law, we obey Jesus.

Jesus is pretty explicit that we should be peaceful: be as harmless as doves, turn the other cheek, do not resist the evildoer, abhor the sword lest one should die by the sword. He is also exceedingly clear that we should set little store by our earthly possessions. So do you really believe that our Saviour, given his position on violence and material wealth, would approve of shooting a thief?

Some people have challenged those arguing in favour of pacifism to justify their positions based on hypotheticals, metaphors or Old Testament law, but until I see the clear meaning of Jesus' own words refuted, I remain unmoved. The most I can concede is that perhaps individuals in the military or law enforcement are occasionally exempt from the otherwise universal rule of non-violent conduct, given Jesus' remarks to a soldier seeking guidance (in particular, He gave no admonitions against the use of necessary force); but even they must seek a peaceful resolution if at all possible.

theleast
Jul 5th 2008, 02:40 AM
And how is it showing love to a child to stand by and watch them be raped or beaten?

I have already answered this question.

How many times do I have to suffer the same questions before you are satisfied with the answer I give?

Slug1
Jul 5th 2008, 02:41 AM
Some people have challenged those arguing in favour of pacifism to justify their positions based on hypotheticals, metaphors or Old Testament law, but until I see the clear meaning of Jesus' own words refuted, I remain unmoved. The most I can concede is that perhaps individuals in the military or law enforcement are occasionally exempt from the otherwise universal rule of non-violent conduct, given Jesus' remarks to a soldier seeking guidance (in particular, He gave no admonitions against the use of necessary force); but even they must seek a peaceful resolution if at all possible.Another awesome comment :thumbsup:

Considering what is man to do with God's authorization to use the "sword" against those who do evil?

Are the ranks of the men and women who are called "Ministers of God" to be filled with ONLY non-Christian's? :hmm:

theleast
Jul 5th 2008, 02:42 AM
Which is similar to how I questioned the dismissal of the verse in Exodus Hisleast, brought up, and was summarily ignored. I think it's sickening how some Christians want to rely on non-believers to do their dirty work when it comes to physical protection, and it makes me question the years I spent putting my life in danger for the benefit of others who simply couldn't care less and dismiss it. It especially sickens me when it comes from people who live cushy lives unchallenged by danger and risk.

I must have missed your question. Pose it and I will answer if I haven't already.

I get the same questions a lot, and in the interest of time I pass over some of the ones I getted asked more than once.

HisLeast
Jul 5th 2008, 03:29 AM
Is it?

The scripture says to be harmless as doves. It says to turn the other cheek. It says to trust in God in all things.

Why do you need a gun to protect you when God says he will.

Christ asked forgiveness for those who perseceuted him. He was our example. We are to do no less.

God also says (and quite clearly so) that there's no guilt put on the defender of a house. Period. Exodus says thats the law. So if God assigns no guilt in this matter, how much more so should you?

Why do you need medicine, seat belts, shelter, or currency when God says he'll protect you? Like someone said earlier: Pray and have faith in the Lord, but keep rowing to shore.

And FYI: the crazy drunkard who nearly breached my door wasn't persecuting me for my faith in Christ. He was trying to smash into my house to do Lord knows what.

HisLeast
Jul 5th 2008, 03:49 AM
How do Christians respond to this verse? The same as we respond to Leviticus 3:17—"This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live: You must not eat any fat or any blood."That is, when Jesus' teachings go against the grain of Jewish law, we obey Jesus.

Jesus is pretty explicit that we should be peaceful: be as harmless as doves, turn the other cheek, do not resist the evildoer, abhor the sword lest one should die by the sword. He is also exceedingly clear that we should set little store by our earthly possessions. So do you really believe that our Saviour, given his position on violence and material wealth, would approve of shooting a thief?

I AM being peaceful. People seem to miss the part that its the assailant selecting the outcome, not the defender. I'm not going out to find them, they're hammering against my door to find me.

And stop deflecting to earthly possessions. My wife and I were robbed blind when we first moved to the new apartment and I don't wish those guys dead. Its the dude who was trying to smash his way in WHILE WE WERE HERE, for who know's what purpose. And not that I want him dead either, but if it came down to him and my wife...?

To "boil it down" to a simple matter of chattels is a weak, pathetic, and ineffectual, attempt to characterize me as a greedy miser. Now, are we quite finished with worrying about "things"?

And while we're getting personal, you show me anyone who would look into his wife's terror filled eyes and say "the best thing to do is let this guy have his way with us" vs. picking up the means to defend his house, and I'll show you a liar.

Vhayes
Jul 5th 2008, 03:53 AM
No one is condemning a person who is a pacifist. All of my uncles served in World War II, as did my father. One uncle, Jim, was a pacifist and a believer in Jesus. Jim joined the Army but became a medic so we wouldn't be put into a position to be forced to take another persons life. He found a way to serve his country, protect his family and stay true to his inner beliefs.

Uncle Jim also beat a man almost half to death for molesting his sister when she was 10 years old. To him, the man had stolen her childhood and that was as morally wrong as was overt violence.

I've tried to read through this thread and it's so long and convoluted it's almost impossible to get through it. I will ask this - how is it the pacifists are so filled with fight when it comes to this and other subjects? Or is arguing acceptable because you don't physically "kill" anyone, you just say they're not following Christ?

I'm confused.

By the way, I never did find your answer to me Phaeton, so if you could give me a post #, I would appreciate it.

Thanks -
V

quiet dove
Jul 5th 2008, 03:56 AM
I AM being peaceful. People seem to miss the part that its the assailant selecting the outcome, not the defender. I'm not going out to find them, they're hammering against my door to find me.

And stop deflecting to earthly possessions. My wife and I were robbed blind when we first moved to the new apartment and I don't wish those guys dead. Its the dude who was trying to smash his way in WHILE WE WERE HERE, for who know's what purpose.

To "boil it down" to a simple matter of chattels is a weak, pathetic, and ineffectual, attempt to characterize me as a greedy miser. Now, are we quite finished with worrying about "things"?

And while we're getting personal, you show me anyone who would look into his wife's terror filled eyes and say "the best thing to do is let this guy have his way with us" vs. picking up the means to defend his house, and I'll show you a liar.

I personally would appreciate and do appreciate knowing I am married to a man who would protect me and our children. I know that God gave me a strong man, a man who puts his family and their safety as priority. A man who has no fear of not only protecting his family, but serving His Savior. He or I have no doubt that the Lord watches over us and would consider ourselves watched over by the Lord, even if it was us the Lord used to do it. My husband isn't going to coward behind the furniture praying while me and our children are slaughtered, or worse. He is going to be brave in the strength of the Lord and step out to protect us.

I am pretty certain your family appreciates the fact that you would protect them.

Like you said, when an intruder breaks into your home, especially with you there, they made the decision to take a chance on dieing, not you.

theleast
Jul 5th 2008, 01:08 PM
God also says (and quite clearly so) that there's no guilt put on the defender of a house. Period. Exodus says thats the law. So if God assigns no guilt in this matter, how much more so should you?

Why do you need medicine, seat belts, shelter, or currency when God says he'll protect you? Like someone said earlier: Pray and have faith in the Lord, but keep rowing to shore.

And FYI: the crazy drunkard who nearly breached my door wasn't persecuting me for my faith in Christ. He was trying to smash into my house to do Lord knows what.

Again the OT law is vanished.

I don't need medicine seat belts or shelter, or currency, although even Christ's followers kept currency to buy things they had need of. God provides what I need for me in all things.

In fact I was in a car accident a few years back that completely totaled the car I was driving at about 70 miles per hour....no seatbelt....walked away without a scratch....lost my coffee though. :P

As for the home intruder in your home, right now you are telling me that you don't have faith that God will protect you from those things or provide you with the things that you have need of.

Gotta have faith for those kinda things to work brother.

Faith Faith Faith!

theleast
Jul 5th 2008, 01:12 PM
I personally would appreciate and do appreciate knowing I am married to a man who would protect me and our children. I know that God gave me a strong man, a man who puts his family and their safety as priority. A man who has no fear of not only protecting his family, but serving His Savior. He or I have no doubt that the Lord watches over us and would consider ourselves watched over by the Lord, even if it was us the Lord used to do it. My husband isn't going to coward behind the furniture praying while me and our children are slaughtered, or worse. He is going to be brave in the strength of the Lord and step out to protect us.

I am pretty certain your family appreciates the fact that you would protect them.

Like you said, when an intruder breaks into your home, especially with you there, they made the decision to take a chance on dieing, not you.

I hope this post is not insinuating that those of us who are taking the approach of non-violence here are cowards who would hide behind furniture.

You obviously haven't been reading my posts then, because I would confront an evil doer inside or outside my home, and have even done so before.

Don't insinuate that those of us who take the path of peace are cowards. It's not becoming, and is a personal attack on our faith.

EarlyCall
Jul 5th 2008, 01:38 PM
Again the OT law is vanished.

I don't need medicine seat belts or shelter, or currency, although even Christ's followers kept currency to buy things they had need of. God provides what I need for me in all things.


In fact I was in a car accident a few years back that completely totaled the car I was driving at about 70 miles per hour....no seatbelt....walked away without a scratch....lost my coffee though. :P

As for the home intruder in your home, right now you are telling me that you don't have faith that God will protect you from those things or provide you with the things that you have need of.

Gotta have faith for those kinda things to work brother.

Faith Faith Faith!

You sound like you think God will allow no harm to come to you. I have to assume you don't actually think this. You also sound like God will not allow you to need medicine or a doctor. Is that what you really think or are you merely being a bit dishonest in order to hold to your argument?

theleast
Jul 5th 2008, 01:45 PM
You sound like you think God will allow no harm to come to you. I have to assume you don't actually think this. You also sound like God will not allow you to need medicine or a doctor. Is that what you really think or are you merely being a bit dishonest in order to hold to your argument?

God will allow no harm to come to me, until my purpose is fulfilled, at which time I may have to suffer the same fate as the prophets and apostles of old.

I trust God to take care of me in all things.

That is what I really think. What need do I have to be dishonest when I have the Spirit of truth dwelling within me. Do you think I speak of myself when I say these things? I only speak what is given me to say by the Holy Spirit.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 5th 2008, 01:48 PM
God will allow no harm to come to me, until my purpose is fulfilled, at which time I may have to suffer the same fate as the prophets and apostles of old.

I trust God to take care of me in all things.

That is what I really think. What need do I have to be dishonest when I have the Spirit of truth dwelling within me. Do you think I speak of myself when I say these things? I only speak what is given me to say by the Holy Spirit.

Do you lock your doors or your car doors? To you wear your seatbelt?

theleast
Jul 5th 2008, 01:57 PM
Do you lock your doors or your car doors? To you wear your seatbelt?

When I was single I did not lock doors or wear a seat belt.

My wife due to her lack of faith locks doors in my house now, and I only wear my seatbelt because there is this annoying dinging that goes off ceaselessly if I don't put it on. :P

None the less a locked door is useless against a determined criminal, so I still have complete faith that I don't have to worry about that crap.

Besides so what if my stuff gets stolen, it's gonna get melted by a fervent heat on the day of judgement anyway. What use is it? So what if I get punched a few times or even stabbed or shot, you think Christ didn't take stripes worse than that?

God will not let me die before my appointed time, and I am fully expecting Satan to throw everything he has at me. So I will lay down my life the same as Christ.

And yet I get accused in these forums of being a coward. It takes more courage to take my approach than it does to shoot a gun.

EarlyCall
Jul 5th 2008, 02:03 PM
How do Christians respond to this verse? The same as we respond to Leviticus 3:17—"This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live: You must not eat any fat or any blood."That is, when Jesus' teachings go against the grain of Jewish law, we obey Jesus.





I keep seeing this nonsense about OT law. What law? When God said that someone killing a thief was not guilty... where is there a law there? There is no law. There is no command to kill or not kill, to defend or not defend. It isn't there.

What is there is a statement of understanding. That's is all it is. If there is any law at all it is that no one can do anything to such a person killing a thief.

But there is no law otherwise. It is a simple statement from God to man to bring about an understanding of God's thinking.

Now I see a difference between not defending oneself or even family against being persecuted for the sake of Christ. I see turning the other cheek through our normal course of events in life, taking no revenge and so on.

But standing by and watching our family being assaulted, raped and even murdered by some thief and claiming God is going to protect us... Yes, He might and He might not. How silly for anyone naive enough to think such is always the case because it most certainly is not.

The very same verses used in the NT to claim one cannot defend themselves are the very same verses the same people use to claim there is no death penalty and war is wrong - in all cases. And yet not one of them is even mentioned.

I have asked what one would do to stop a rapist from raping a young girl, a child. I asked if they would kill the rapist if that was what was required to stop him and save the little girl. I get all sorts of answers except the right one - either yes or no. Dishonest answers to the hard questions. Either yes or no.

But I think Jesus would have us kill the rapist if that was required to stop him and save the little girl.

You may recall the story of the good Samaritan. He happened along after the mugging. Is it possible in life that a good Samaritan might happen along during the mugging? And what is that good Samaritan to do then - being a pacifist? Wait until it is finished and then do his good deed? What nonsense. I do not find that true to the character of God in the least.

Ah, but the answer forthcoming is that God would do this or that or whatever. They are all actually somewhat creative but dishonest. And tiring.

Ecumaniac
Jul 5th 2008, 02:27 PM
I AM being peaceful. People seem to miss the part that its the assailant selecting the outcome, not the defender. I'm not going out to find them, they're hammering against my door to find me.

You seem to be deflecting all responsibility for a thief's death onto the thief herself, but the truth is that the person who pulled the trigger, let loose with the baseball bat or lashed out with the knife still holds ultimate responsibility for the death they caused. This is simple mechanical cause and effect.


And stop deflecting to earthly possessions.I'm not "deflecting". The verse you quoted mentions a thief, not a murderer or a rapist, and that's how I'm responding to it. The truth is, most burglaries (if the recent warning from my local constabulary is to be trusted) are crimes of opportunity: the thief wants to get in and out as fast as possible, and usually will not attempt entry when there is a high probability that they will be noticed by the occupants.


Its the dude who was trying to smash his way in WHILE WE WERE HERE, for who know's what purpose. And not that I want him dead either, but if it came down to him and my wife...?What about if the Son of God were next to you, and not putting up a fight? Would you defend Him?


And while we're getting personal[…]What?! :confused You're the one who decided I was characterising you as a "greedy miser," not me! Please, HL: take a step back, and read what I wrote again. Ask yourself if I meant anything personally. Nowhere did I say that you, in particular, are possessed by a spirit of avarice; you have taken offence where absolutely none is intended.


[Y]ou show me anyone who would look into his wife's terror filled eyes and say "the best thing to do is let this guy have his way with us" vs. picking up the means to defend his house, and I'll show you a liar.You mean, the means to defend his wife, right? Well, I'm sure it's difficult. Peter couldn't stand back and let his Saviour be taken captive; he used the sword he had, and cut off someone's ear. But Jesus ordered him to stand down, and healed the man so hurt.

The fact is, Jesus clearly indicates that Christian civilians should not defend themselves from violence with violence. Dangerous commandment, isn't it? You could be killed, like John the Baptist, or like the apostles. Whether or not they should defend others from violence is more difficult. For example, we are commanded not to steal, but is it OK to steal on the behalf of another over whom we have a duty of care? Although it seems like an unsatisfying answer to say that sin by proxy is fine for the protection of another, perhaps Jesus indicated that in certain circumstances it is acceptable. However, I would need to see some evidence from the Gospels to support this contention before I could embrace it.

EarlyCall
Jul 5th 2008, 02:53 PM
God will allow no harm to come to me, until my purpose is fulfilled, at which time I may have to suffer the same fate as the prophets and apostles of old.

I trust God to take care of me in all things.

That is what I really think. What need do I have to be dishonest when I have the Spirit of truth dwelling within me. Do you think I speak of myself when I say these things? I only speak what is given me to say by the Holy Spirit.

Just wanted to make sure you weren't trying to claim God wouldn't let any harm come to you. It happens all the time.

What no one else can trust is that they can count on you to save them. They also can't count on God to use you to save them - not if it requires you harming another in order to save them.

Yea, that's how I see it. And I think that is sad.

Ecumaniac
Jul 5th 2008, 02:57 PM
I keep seeing this nonsense about OT law. What law? When God said that someone killing a thief was not guilty... where is there a law there? There is no law.

Take a look at Exodus 22 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Exodus&chapter=22#n9), and you will see that the verse in question is buried in the middle of a passage concerning laws about property. The chapter before it is wholly Jewish law, as is the chapter which follows. The verse which follows on from it is, of course, a statement of the pecuniary responsibilities of a thief caught alive—i.e. a statement of law. The verse itself refers to blood guilt, which I understand to be a debt of blood under Jewish law. If this verse is not a statement of law, then it really is an extraordinary anomaly! :)

(The immediately following verse is an oddity: "If the sun has risen on [the thief], then there is blood guilt for him." Does that mean that one may only kill a thief during the night?)

Ecumaniac
Jul 5th 2008, 03:00 PM
Just wanted to make sure you weren't trying to claim God wouldn't let any harm come to you. It happens all the time.

Certainly. He let His apostles be taken, and plenty of other Christians were executed in the following years. No one said following Jesus would be easy or safe.

Ecumaniac
Jul 5th 2008, 03:18 PM
I have asked what one would do to stop a rapist from raping a young girl, a child. I asked if they would kill the rapist if that was what was required to stop him and save the little girl. I get all sorts of answers except the right one - either yes or no. Dishonest answers to the hard questions. Either yes or no.

You've set up a very emotive, unlikely and artificial situation. We are asked to imagine that we happen upon a paedophilic rapist immediately prior to his vile act, with no chance of calling upon law enforcement to arrive in time to prevent him. We are further asked to imagine that we cannot merely spook, restrain or incapacitate this individual, but that our only option is to directly kill them. No calling to him that the police are on their way, or pulling him off and holding him back, or even clubbing him upside the head with a wooden plank. The only options are a binary "yes" and "no," in contrast to the multitude of possibilities available in real life.

The closest I can actually come to picturing this is that I'm sat in a bulletproof glass box watching the crime unfold before me, with nothing but a button which will ignite a detonator charge in the man's head. I honestly can't tell you what I would do in such a sterile hypothetical! If you can construct a more realistic scenario, maybe I can address it honestly, but the way I'm picturing it now it would be a purely intellectual exercise.

If I saw someone about to be raped on the street, I'd do whatever I could. I'd call the police; tell the offender that I had notified the authorities; cry out to bring attention to the scene; throw myself at him so that the victim could escape. But kill him? At what point would that be necessary?


Ah, but the answer forthcoming is that God would do this or that or whatever. They are all actually somewhat creative but dishonest. And tiring.Oh, I wouldn't be so certain that God would do anything. He allows plenty of horrible things to happen to innocent people.

quiet dove
Jul 5th 2008, 05:14 PM
I hope this post is not insinuating that those of us who are taking the approach of non-violence here are cowards who would hide behind furniture.

You obviously haven't been reading my posts then, because I would confront an evil doer inside or outside my home, and have even done so before.

Don't insinuate that those of us who take the path of peace are cowards. It's not becoming, and is a personal attack on our faith.

I was not intending to call anyone a coward just could not think of another way to put it. What I was trying to say is that there is a time for prayer, and a time then for the prayer and faith to take action. It's "like faith with out works is what?"

I hate violence and injustice and am not a particularly brave person myself, thats probably one reason I have such respect for those who are brave enough to go fight violence and injustice every day, like the police.

I hate violence in movies, book, and music, it is not entertainment to me. I think all those violent games and stuff should be burned. I hate violence and injustice and am not trying to promote it, but if we do not defend ourselve say, (provided we even had opportunity to do so) and just call the police for them to shoot someone, is that not just asking someone else to do our dirty work? I mean, I understand that there are laws that we must obey, I am not talking about taking the law into our own hands, I am just talking about if and when a situation is at hand are we not willing to do what we would ask our law enforcement to do?


In fact I was in a car accident a few years back that completely totaled the car I was driving at about 70 miles per hour....no seatbelt....walked away without a scratch....lost my coffee though.I saw this and wanted to comment. I was in a similar situation only it was my son and his fiancee. They were clipped on the back quarter panel by a car coming out into traffic which sent them into two lanes of on coming traffic on this busy road. My husband and I were right behind them following them home from the supper at the church the night before their wedding. This was a situation where obviously there was nothing we could do to protect them, we could only watch this happen. But we, all four of us , them and us called out for Jesus, without even thinking first, just hollered for Him, not sure that is praying but we really didn't have time for much formality. They were not only hit by on coming cars but slammed into a dirt bank, but they both walked/ limped away and no one else in the other vehicles involved was injured.

Something else I wanted to add. I am not promoting violence, I hate it. But there are those God has placed on the earth that He uses, the stronger to protect the weaker. God has those He uses to bring justice to injustices done. All things about us should be under His control, including those who were given the ability and courage to fight injustice, be it the husband of his family or the police of the society. If all is under submission to the Spirit, no one will get killed that God has not made that decision, I mean the person who is walking in the Spirit, even though their calling may be to protect, even if it means killing, will not be just randomly or carelessly killing, it will all be under the direction of God and God does have that right.

Slug1
Jul 5th 2008, 06:05 PM
Something else I wanted to add. I am not promoting violence, I hate it. But there are those God has placed on the earth that He uses, the stronger to protect the weaker. God has those He uses to bring justice to injustices done. All things about us should be under His control, including those who were given the ability and courage to fight injustice, be it the husband of his family or the police of the society. If all is under submission to the Spirit, no one will get killed that God has not made that decision, I mean the person who is walking in the Spirit, even though their calling may be to protect, even if it means killing, will not be just randomly or carelessly killing, it will all be under the direction of God and God does have that right.Amen ! :amen:

edit: Besides many non-Christian's who will one day be Christian's as God knows who will come to serve Him. Since they don't have the Holy Spirit to protect them right now as the arguments seems to be with those that insist the Holy Spirit will deliver them from all harm. For those without the Holy Spirit, how is the Holy Spirit to help them?... send in the avengers... the Ministers of God to deal with the evil and if lethal force is necessary then that is how a Christian who serves as a police officer or soldier will be obedient to God, they'll kill the enemy if need be. This goes for Christian's as well, as the Holy Spirit will protect them as God wills and that will not always be the way they expect... a Minister of God may just be what is used.

I started a new thread for this so not to derail this thread: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=131041

EarlyCall
Jul 5th 2008, 06:24 PM
You've set up a very emotive, unlikely and artificial situation. We are asked to imagine that we happen upon a paedophilic rapist immediately prior to his vile act, with no chance of calling upon law enforcement to arrive in time to prevent him. We are further asked to imagine that we cannot merely spook, restrain or incapacitate this individual, but that our only option is to directly kill them. No calling to him that the police are on their way, or pulling him off and holding him back, or even clubbing him upside the head with a wooden plank. The only options are a binary "yes" and "no," in contrast to the multitude of possibilities available in real life.


I think I worded it carefully enough. One thing I will say and then be done with it. Recently some people saw a man beating a baby to death. They did call the cops. They did yell and scream for the man to stop. He did not stop. The cops finally got there and shot the man because he wouldn't stop when they told him to stop. The cop killed the man and the baby died because the cop got there too late. Had someone in the crowd had a gun, they could have saved the life of that child.

Your response seems to want to pretend such things do not occur. But in fact they do.

The closest I can actually come to picturing this is that I'm sat in a bulletproof glass box watching the crime unfold before me, with nothing but a button which will ignite a detonator charge in the man's head. I honestly can't tell you what I would do in such a sterile hypothetical! If you can construct a more realistic scenario, maybe I can address it honestly, but the way I'm picturing it now it would be a purely intellectual exercise.

If I saw someone about to be raped on the street, I'd do whatever I could. I'd call the police; tell the offender that I had notified the authorities; cry out to bring attention to the scene; throw myself at him so that the victim could escape. But kill him? At what point would that be necessary?

Oh, I wouldn't be so certain that God would do anything. He allows plenty of horrible things to happen to innocent people.

That you believe as you do is fine, for you, but not for me. I understand God can and does protect, but I believe He also expects us to do our parts. I rather think He tends to step in when we have reached our limitations.

redeemedbyhim
Jul 5th 2008, 06:38 PM
Recently some people saw a man beating a baby to death. They did call the cops. They did yell and scream for the man to stop. He did not stop. The cops finally got there and shot the man because he wouldn't stop when they told him to stop. The cop killed the man and the baby died because the cop got there too late. Had someone in the crowd had a gun, they could have saved the life of that child. Not you, but someone else.

I remember this story, it was very recent and very tragic.

You make an excellent point, the strong should defend the weak. When they were unable to, the police did the job. Should the police be then questioned for their actions?

Ecumaniac
Jul 6th 2008, 02:32 AM
I think I worded it carefully enough.

You worded it very carefully, certainly. The problem is that it simply doesn't seem feasible.


One thing I will say and then be done with it. Recently some people saw a man beating a baby to death. They did call the cops. They did yell and scream for the man to stop. He did not stop. The cops finally got there and shot the man because he wouldn't stop when they told him to stop. The cop killed the man and the baby died because the cop got there too late. Had someone in the crowd had a gun, they could have saved the life of that child.

Your response seems to want to pretend such things do not occur. But in fact they do.

I don't pretend that such things will never occur. Like I said, God clearly allows horrible things to happen to innocent people; He probably tolerates this because he will repay them in the afterlife. This doesn't make it OK to disobey Jesus, though. He was quite clear that civilians should not be violent, nor should they "take up the sword". If we should not take up swords, how much less should we take up a gun?

It just seems to me that if Jesus says something is not OK, then there is nothing to discuss, no matter how unpleasant the consequences might be. I'm sure that God has made sure that toddler is being looked after.


That you believe as you do is fine, for you, but not for me. I understand God can and does protect, but I believe He also expects us to do our parts. I rather think He tends to step in when we have reached our limitations.

Without presuming to pass judgement, my opinion would be that Christians who feel particularly called to protect others should become police or servicepeople. Like I said, I'm open to further comment upon what Christians in such professions may be called to do. However, I have seen no evidence that Jesus ever commuted his firm sanctions against violence and the use of weapons for civilians.

By the way, just because I believe that I shouldn't be violent doesn't mean that I'm going to stand out of the way when I see someone getting hurt. If necessary I'll take a beating; better that my body gets hurt than that my spirit.

dan
Jul 6th 2008, 09:34 AM
...For taking so long to respond.


The passages you follow this with are from the Old Testament, written purposely to a people who lived under the Mosaic Law.

They are also unfulfilled Prophecy.


If Jesus says something which runs counter to what is written in the Old Testament, we obey Jesus.

And the Apostles. Jesus never counters Prophecy, but otherwise true.

ACTS 13:40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
ACTS 13:41 Behold, ...: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.


Concerning the importance of possessions, He said:

"No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

No. This is obviously about the love of money. Jesus also taught:

LK 11:21 When a strong man armed keepeth his court, those things are in peace which he possesseth.

MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear:
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Isn’t there more to life than food and more to the body than clothing?"—Matthew 6:24, 25

No, again. This is about faith in God.

MT 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?


How do we respond to those who do evil, or try to take our possessions?

Quote:
"You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer. But whoever strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well. And if someone wants to sue you and to take your tunic, give him your coat also."—Matthew 5:38–40

The entire OT verse Jesus was referencing says:

DEUT 19:21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Jesus modified the eye and tooth parts, but left the rest alone.
Therefore, you shall not allow anyone to take your life, hand, or foot. We should never read into scripture things that are not there.


When Peter tried to defend Him from arrest by striking a man with a sword, He healed the man and rebuked His disciple thus:
"Then Jesus said to him, 'Put your sword back in its place! For all who take hold of the sword will die by the sword."—Matthew 26:52


Actually, Jesus was talking of that moment only. It was His time to make The Sacrifice, and He knew that God would not tolerate interference.
As an example, I know of several that have killed in war and as policemen and have lived to their ninties, and died of natural causes. So, to assume that all that use the sword die by the sword is incorrect.

Also, the other Gospels don't support that interpretation:

MK 14:47 And one of them that stood by drew a sword, and smote a servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
MK 14:48 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Are ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and with staves to take me?

LK 22:50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
LK 22:51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.

JN 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
JN 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

Besides, who told the Apostles to carry swords?

LK 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

And why does one carry a weapon?

DEUT 19:21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear:
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

LK 11:21 When a strong man armed keepeth his court, those things are in peace which he possesseth.

MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.


The assertion that Jesus intends for us to respond violently to those who do evil is anomalous.

Of course, I think otherwise. But you are, I assume, a grown man. You have the right to choose.

HisLeast
Jul 7th 2008, 03:08 PM
You seem to be deflecting all responsibility for a thief's death onto the thief herself, but the truth is that the person who pulled the trigger, let loose with the baseball bat or lashed out with the knife still holds ultimate responsibility for the death they caused. This is simple mechanical cause and effect.

I'm not excusing the defender from responsibility. G-d does a good enough job of that in Exodus. The mechanical cause/effect you're looking for is: Forced Entry = Forfeit Life.


I'm not "deflecting". The verse you quoted mentions a thief, not a murderer or a rapist, and that's how I'm responding to it. The truth is, most burglaries (if the recent warning from my local constabulary is to be trusted) are crimes of opportunity: the thief wants to get in and out as fast as possible, and usually will not attempt entry when there is a high probability that they will be noticed by the occupants.

The verse would suit just as well for someone forcing their way into one's house to do harm. How much sense would it make to say "there's no guilt if he's there to rob you, but if he's there to rape or murder you, you must not kill him in self defence". Am I to assume Exodus 22 puts a greater value on property than life? That certainly wouldn't fit with the rest of the books of Law. I am fully aware of what burglaries are "usually"... perhaps you can inform the gentleman who tried to batter down our door.


What about if the Son of God were next to you, and not putting up a fight? Would you defend Him?

If he was a guest in my house, you betcha.


What?! :confused You're the one who decided I was characterising you as a "greedy miser," not me! Please, HL: take a step back, and read what I wrote again. Ask yourself if I meant anything personally. Nowhere did I say that you, in particular, are possessed by a spirit of avarice; you have taken offence where absolutely none is intended.

The post I originally responded to deliberately left out any mention of family safety, but had plenty to say about material possessions. You hear anyone here lamenting the loss of their THINGS? So whether it was calculated or not, you did mischaracterize us as more concerned about "stuff" than our families. As I said before... we were robbed blind when we first moved here, and I have no desire to avenge the perpetrators. I hate repeating that because its absolutely irrelevant. I'm talking about someone smashing our door down while we're present... sure they may want my stuff... but I'm not going to risk them wanting more.


The fact is, Jesus clearly indicates that Christian civilians should not defend themselves from violence with violence. Dangerous commandment, isn't it? You could be killed, like John the Baptist, or like the apostles. Whether or not they should defend others from violence is more difficult.

Fact also is that Exodus shows clearly God assigns no guilt for the defence under forced entry.


For example, we are commanded not to steal, but is it OK to steal on the behalf of another over whom we have a duty of care? Although it seems like an unsatisfying answer to say that sin by proxy is fine for the protection of another, perhaps Jesus indicated that in certain circumstances it is acceptable. However, I would need to see some evidence from the Gospels to support this contention before I could embrace it.

Apples and oranges.

Friend of I AM
Jul 7th 2008, 03:27 PM
i don't keep a gun handy, but i really think if someone was breaking in and i could get to my gun, i would shoot. i would try to scare him off first, but if it came right down to it, i would shoot.

how about you?

Me too. I would probably be very startled and pull the trigger, as I don't know what type of person I'm dealing with, and whether or not they pose a threat to my family. I think most people would. Now if the guys running away from my house with something and I just pull in the driveway while he's running away with the TV, I'd probably just let him go and call the police. No reason to shoot someone over something like that. Interestingly enough there was an issue I was watching on TV the other day, regarding a guy who shot a criminal coming out of his neighbor's house. The guy got acquited of manslaughter. Interested in knowing yours/anyone elses thoughts on this one. Should the guy have been convicted?

Stephen

quiet dove
Jul 7th 2008, 05:52 PM
Me too. I would probably be very startled and pull the trigger, as I don't know what type of person I'm dealing with, and whether or not they pose a threat to my family. I think most people would. Now if the guys running away from my house with something and I just pull in the driveway while he's running away with the TV, I'd probably just let him go and call the police. No reason to shoot someone over something like that. Interestingly enough there was an issue I was watching on TV the other day, regarding a guy who shot a criminal coming out of his neighbor's house. The guy got acquited of manslaughter. Interested in knowing yours/anyone elses thoughts on this one. Should the guy have been convicted?

Stephen

Yep, lots of thoughts on that, thread on it here. (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=108244) :)

dan
Jul 15th 2008, 01:53 AM
...For all those that might have to shoot someday:

Tachypsychia is out there waiting to mess with your head.

In a "Life Or Death" situation things will "slow down" or go into slow motion. You will feel as if you can't go fast enough. Just like in your nightmares about being chased or deadly encounters.

When you decide to shoot, tunnel vision may hit you HARD. You may not be able to see your target. Don't worry, don't second guess. SHOOT or they will kill you.

When the shooting is over and you see that you shot the bad guy in the back instead of where you thought you aimed, don't change your story to fit the facts. In fact, don't cooperate with the police until you talk to your lawyer. They should understand, they do it themselves, and for the same reasons.

Your lawyer should be familiar with these situations. If not, get a new one.

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder

Be prepared for about a year of nightmares. In these nightmares, you will relive the scenario over and over again. Only this time the gun doesn't fire. Tomorrow night, the perp is a child. The night after that, the gun fires, but the bullets fall on the floor in front of you. It can get bad and it will feel bad. But, for most, it ends after a year.
If it's any consolation, the people that don't defend themselves, especially if injured, keep their nightmares the rest of their lives.

It is said that reviewing this training monthly will reduce or eliminate the severity of the effects of Tachypsychia and PTSD.

For a more in-depth view, read "In The Gravest Extreme" By Massad Ayoob.

My heart's Desire
Jul 15th 2008, 02:48 AM
I don't have a gun and I'm afraid of them. i don't think I could shoot someone, but I do know this. sometimes when things that scare you or are unexpected, happens you sometimes will do what you'd NEVER see yourself doing. I found this out by something trivial compared to shooting an intruder. When I lost one job, I said, did things I would NEVER EVER have done and said any other normal day. It was like I was someone else. In fact, in this small thing I realized just how much the man Adam is still in our nature fighting against the spiritual part of us.
I think I might hit an intruder or something, I don't know, but I don't THINK I could shoot them.

Jaenak
Jul 15th 2008, 06:45 AM
The first time Jesus sent out His disciples He told them to go without a sword, the second time He sent them out He told them if any amoung them didn't own one, sell their shirt and buy one first. He sent them out the first time so they would learn how to live without one so they wouldn't rely exclusively on their swords. He sent them out the second time with a sword so that they could use it if they saw it was nessisary despite what they learned while living without one.

So, yes I could and yes I would as a last resort.

ChristianKnight
Jul 15th 2008, 06:13 PM
I would shoot someone if they were trying to rob me/hurt me, I would not hesitate, its defense.

Dave McIntyre
Jul 15th 2008, 11:31 PM
Where I live in Brazil street violence and armed home invasions are very real, this sort of thing touches us on a regular basis. We lived for five years on a street where we had nine violent crimes a day and at least one murder a week within a kilometer of our apartment. In that five years we had five police officers gunned down in the neighborhood. We moved to a safer area a few miles away.

By law we have to have a wall around our property, ours is at the legal minimum, about 10 feet high on average. It is also topped with (non-barbed) electric fence to discourage wall jumpers and set off the house alarm if they do. In the yard we have two pit bulls that are the nicest dogs I have ever owned, but they put on a pretty good show if anyone is planning to jump the wall. Our dogs have been poisoned twice which is usually a signal of an impending home invasion.

The house gets locked at night and we have an alarm that sounds if any of the doors or windows are opened. We have bars on the windows, as does every other house in our city. We opted not to top our wall with coiled razor wire (like many other people on our street) as I think it looks evil. Believe it or not all this stuff is quite normal for Brazil, you have to live in a fortress or you wind up like my neighbor, stabbed 38 times for less than $50.

Upstairs we have a solid wood security door at the top of the stairs with a deadbolt. At night the family goes to bed and we lock that door so a home invader has a physical barrier that he would have to break through to get to the family. I have done as much as I can to avoid a violent confrontation with a home invader. Police response times run about a half an hour here. Anyone trying to break down that door is going to get shot.

Mac

Edited to add: Depending on the circumstances I would fire one warning shot through the narrow glass pane above that security door before resorting to clearing the stairs. In Brazil warning shots are viewed favorably by the courts whereas in the US they are not. In many areas of the US warning shots are also considered use of deadly force and you can get in big trouble if deadly force was not warrented when you made the shot.