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manichunter
Jun 28th 2008, 04:57 AM
What is Carnality? What is spiritually?

Key Question- Do you see any carnality within yourself?

Can you answer those two for yourself?

I will attempt to share what I have been taught by God.
Carnality is any personal thought, act, or view produced by a human person that does not ultimately lead to glorifying God and advancing His kingdom, but it brings personal glory and praise to its originator. It consists of everything short of spiritual. It is limited to earthly thoughts and actions; and, it cannot comprehend anything related to the spiritual. To be carnal minded is death and confusion and to be spirituality minded is life and peace.

Ro 8:6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+8:6&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Carnality is ego driven to validate and prove itself right. It wants acceptance and approval for its actions. Carnality resists anything contrary to its establish ideologies. This includes the truths of God and inspirations of the Holy Spirit. It fight against anything that it does not immediately comprehend because it exposes its weaknesses, dependence, and need of trust in God. The carnal mind cannot discern and recognize spiritual deception.

1Co 2:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+2:14&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But the natural man does not receive the thingsof the Spirit ofGod, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Carnality wants to understand and filter everything in through logic, deductive reasoning, and theory. Carnality is both an inherited and learned mindset. We are born in a carnal world and we received the same carnal mindset from Adam. Then we learn to be even more carnal as we attempt to survive and thrive. Carnality always believes in something, therefore, it creates a personal world view as it vehicle for living its own life.

1Co 3:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+3:3&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

However, the bottom line is that carnality does not want to trust God. Why? The carnal is an enemy of God. It is at war with God. It disdains the things and knowledge of God, because it cannot understand and control them.

Ro 8:7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+8:7&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Because the carnalmind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Re 22:15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+22:15&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

To be spiritual means to trust God. There is no distance or measure between carnality and spirituality with the exception of trusting God. Spirituality comes down to either trusting God or not. Spirituality has a different process than carnality. It is not learned but surrendered to. It is the only means by the Holy Spirit that the truth can be distinguish from the lie.

Joh 14:17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+14:17&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

Joh 16:13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+16:13&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

How does one possibly know that they could be operating in carnality?
1.It loves to learn and comprehend knowledge that makes one feel better about themselves.
2.It loves to boast in the knowledge it knows
3.Find it hard to trust God
4.Sees knowledge as means of pleasure, power, and profit
5.Produces strife and pride
6.Is partial and prejudice
7.Hates the truth and loves the lie

How does one possibly know that they could be operating in spirituality?
1.It loves to discovered more about God that enriches the relationship with God
2.Praises God for His inspirations and revelations
3.Trusts God regardless of knowledge
4.Sees the truth as means of communion and share with God and others
5.Produces humility and peace
6.Is not partial and prejudice but just
7.Loves the truth and hates the lie
*Bonus round- carnality is in abundance on a great many of Christian forums. LOL............

What do you think carnality is? Do you see a lot of carnality within yourself?

Scubadude
Jun 28th 2008, 05:01 AM
What is Carnality? What is spiritually?

Can you answer those two for yourself?

I will attempt to share what I have been taught by God.
Carnality is any personal thought, act, or view produced by a human person that does not ultimately lead to glorifying God and advancing His kingdom, but it brings personal glory and praise to its originator. It consists of everything short of spiritual. It is limited to earthly thoughts and actions; and, it cannot comprehend anything related to the spiritual. To be carnal minded is death and confusion and to be spirituality minded is life and peace.

Ro 8:6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+8:6&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Carnality is ego driven to validate and prove itself right. It wants acceptance and approval for its actions. Carnality resists anything contrary to its establish ideologies. This includes the truths of God and inspirations of the Holy Spirit. It fight against anything that it does not immediately comprehend because it exposes its weaknesses, dependence, and need of trust in God. The carnal mind cannot discern and recognize spiritual deception.

1Co 2:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+2:14&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But the natural man does not receive the thingsof the Spirit ofGod, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Carnality wants to understand and filter everything in through logic, deductive reasoning, and theory. Carnality is both an inherited and learned mindset. We are born in a carnal world and we received the same carnal mindset from Adam. Then we learn to be even more carnal as we attempt to survive and thrive. Carnality always believes in something, therefore, it creates a personal world view as it vehicle for living its own life.

1Co 3:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+3:3&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

However, the bottom line is that carnality does not want to trust God. Why? The carnal is an enemy of God. It is at war with God. It disdains the things and knowledge of God, because it cannot understand and control them.

Ro 8:7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+8:7&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Because the carnalmind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Re 22:15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+22:15&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

To be spiritual means to trust God. There is no distance or measure between carnality and spirituality with the exception of trusting God. Spirituality comes down to either trusting God or not. Spirituality has a different process than carnality. It is not learned but surrendered to. It is the only means by the Holy Spirit that the truth can be distinguish from the lie.

Joh 14:17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+14:17&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

Joh 16:13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+16:13&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

How does one possibly know that they could be operating in carnality?
1.It loves to learn and comprehend knowledge that makes one feel better about themselves.
2.It loves to boast in the knowledge it knows
3.Find it hard to trust God
4.Sees knowledge as means of pleasure, power, and profit
5.Produces strife and pride
6.Is partial and prejudice
7.Hates the truth and loves the lie

How does one possibly know that they could be operating in spirituality?
1.It loves to discovered more about God that enriches the relationship with God
2.Praises God for His inspirations and revelations
3.Trusts God regardless of knowledge
4.Sees the truth as means of communion and share with God and others
5.Produces humility and peace
6.Is not partial and prejudice but just
7.Loves the truth and hates the lie
*Bonus round- carnality is in abundance on a great many of Christian forums. LOL............

What do you think carnality is? Do you see a lot of carnality within yourself?



Never liked the word 'carnal'. Are you presently attending a Baptist Theological Seminary? It sounds like you copied this from a book.

manichunter
Jun 28th 2008, 05:09 AM
Never liked the word 'carnal'. Are you presently attending a Baptist Theological Seminary? It sounds like you copied this from a book.

Is that sarcasm or a serious question. I explained where I got if from in the context. I teach seminary but that does not mean anything in reference to me preparing this as I learn and share what God has taught me..............

Scubadude
Jun 28th 2008, 05:17 AM
Is that sarcasm or a serious question. I explained where I got if from in the context. I teach seminary but that does not mean anything in reference to me preparing this as I learn and share what God has taught me..............

It was both. But perhaps I should refrain from posting on your thread. I meant no disrespect.

1of7000
Jun 28th 2008, 05:20 AM
A cemetary teacher?

manichunter
Jun 28th 2008, 05:21 AM
It was both. But perhaps I should refrain from posting on your thread. I meant no disrespect.

You could have at least answered the question?

Scubadude
Jun 28th 2008, 05:39 AM
I teach seminary but that does not mean anything in reference to me preparing this as I learn and share what God has taught me..............

Usually, subtlty is not lost on me, but I'll take this as your question. It sounded like a statement.

Yes, you do teach seminary. And I disagree, it means everything in your preparing to teach students this subject.

Was this the direction you were hoping to go with this thread? I ask because this is your thread, and I don't intend to go in the direction you seem to be asking.

Scubadude
Jun 28th 2008, 05:41 AM
A cemetary teacher?

Yo, girl! Long time no talk.

manichunter
Jun 28th 2008, 06:07 AM
Usually, subtlty is not lost on me, but I'll take this as your question. It sounded like a statement.

Yes, you do teach seminary. And I disagree, it means everything in your preparing to teach students this subject.

.


Why is subtlty not lost on you. Is that a good thing or bad thing? What does that depend on, since that is probaly your response (LOL)?


It is not statement. I am sincerely studied the subject. God started me in Romans. I asked him to teach me what carnality is. I have never had deep instruction on the subject. I knew it had everything to do with everything equated to ungodly, unloving, and in-ordinate affections. I knew mostly general things like it was bad, earthly in origin and limitations, and the default human behavior for any believer who has not been discipled in the faith through sanctification. This includes me to a strong degree. I do not want to be carnal. I do not want to excuse my behavior as just being myself when my behavior is sinful. I want out by any means necessary. I want to be considerate, tactic, and peaceful.

I am a police officer. Those things are hard to do when you deal with criminal most of the time. They are people as well, but some of their consciences and mindsets would scare the average citizen who he knew the thoughts and intentions of these criminals. Anyway off topic, and back to the thread. I want to know more, and this others the opportunity to share and study if they so decide...............

Scubadude
Jun 28th 2008, 08:15 AM
You aren't really a seminary professor, are you.

ImmenseDisciple
Jun 28th 2008, 09:10 AM
This post has meandered far enough from the point, let's not have it get any worse.

As for the OP - it strikes me that all of us by our very nature have yet to purge the carnal self. It isn't in this life that we can overcome such things - although we can certainly strive to step away from them, and we should.

Thanks for sharing this :)

mikebr
Jun 28th 2008, 01:48 PM
Key Question- Do you see any carnality within yourself?.................Yes, do you?

mikebr
Jun 28th 2008, 01:53 PM
The knowledge that we are all God's, that He has received all and rejected nothing, will unify our inner lives and make everything sacred to us.

He promised to use my carnality for Good if I loved Him.

mikebr
Jun 28th 2008, 04:37 PM
All I’ve accomplished, the titles I hold
My passions, position, possessions and gold
To God they must look like a thimble of foam
And it’s everything that I own
Dirty rags are all that I own


So I stand before God with my stubble and hay
He just laughs, but says there’s still a way
Because “Father, Forgive” are the words Jesus moaned
When He gave everything that He owned



Everything I Own
Jason Gray

Scubadude
Jun 28th 2008, 05:11 PM
This post has meandered far enough from the point, let's not have it get any worse.


Why do you think I've meandered off subject? We are still talking about carnality in believers.

Scubadude
Jun 28th 2008, 05:23 PM
I am a police officer. Those things are hard to do when you deal with criminal most of the time. They are people as well, but some of their consciences and mindsets would scare the average citizen who he knew the thoughts and intentions of these criminals.


In your Bio it says you are a business man, in Insurance and securities. :o:o

As a police officer in training, I know the career is very consuming. Would you mind explaining how you can have both careers?

This is still very much on topic.

threebigrocks
Jun 28th 2008, 05:45 PM
Goodness! Carnality is of the flesh, and spirit is simply of the Spirit. Simple, and to a degree it's what we ought to be aware of as a basic principle of knowing we are born again of the Spirit.

We are destined to die. All of us. Our flesh will pass away, physicially. When we are saved again of the Spirit, we live in the Spirit and our flesh is to be dead. Thing is, we are still stuck in the flesh until it physcially - truly - passes away according to the flesh.

Carnal things are of the world, and if we live according to the Spirit we will know when we are being taken, even to allowing ourselves to be taken, captive by the flesh. We are to resist, and keep to that which does not die. In the here and now that is our Spirit.

We live in faith, through the Spirit, not by the flesh. We will receive our flesh back from death at the time of the resurrection, but it must first die. Everything must first die in order for it to be raised incorruptable. Christ died to pay the penalty of our death and allows our Spirit to now be free while we wait for our bodies to die of this world and then be able to be raised incorruptable, just as He did. Christ's spirit never did die as He was God. That is what opens the gates for us to live by the Spirit and walk and resist the flesh, or carnality, which we strive against.

Joe King
Jun 28th 2008, 05:52 PM
Goodness! Carnality is of the flesh, and spirit is simply of the Spirit. Simple, and to a degree it's what we ought to be aware of as a basic principle of knowing we are born again of the Spirit.


Thank you!

Philippians 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=3&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—

theBelovedDisciple
Jun 28th 2008, 06:36 PM
What are the characteristics of being carnal as a Christian.. Here is what Paul states in Corinthians...

For ye are yet CARNAL: for where as there is among you ENVYING, AND STRIFE, AND DIVISIONS, are ye not carnal and walk as men?

For one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

I Corinthians 3-4

One need not go very far to see this in its full form and fruit.

threebigrocks
Jun 28th 2008, 08:44 PM
What are the characteristics of being carnal as a Christian.. Here is what Paul states in Corinthians...

For ye are yet CARNAL: for where as there is among you ENVYING, AND STRIFE, AND DIVISIONS, are ye not carnal and walk as men?

For one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

I Corinthians 3-4

One need not go very far to see this in its full form and fruit.

And notice the contrast is among believers - not a label for unbelievers. Those of the world would naturally be expected to be worldly. But believers - expected to not be worldly.

Unfortunately, you are correct Beloved, most times we don't need to look too far to see what these verses are speaking of.

theBelovedDisciple
Jun 28th 2008, 10:12 PM
And notice the contrast is among believers - not a label for unbelievers. Those of the world would naturally be expected to be worldly. But believers - expected to not be worldly.

Unfortunately, you are correct Beloved, most times we don't need to look too far to see what these verses are speaking of.


I agree.........

1of7000
Jun 28th 2008, 11:19 PM
Yo, girl! Long time no talk.

Must be the man-paps, I am a little out of shape, although round is a shape too. I see you've been around but have not crossed threads.

fewarechosen
Jun 29th 2008, 12:10 AM
What is Carnality? What is spiritually?

Key Question- Do you see any carnality within yourself?

Can you answer those two for yourself?

I will attempt to share what I have been taught by God.
Carnality is any personal thought, act, or view produced by a human person that does not ultimately lead to glorifying God and advancing His kingdom, but it brings personal glory and praise to its originator. It consists of everything short of spiritual. It is limited to earthly thoughts and actions; and, it cannot comprehend anything related to the spiritual. To be carnal minded is death and confusion and to be spirituality minded is life and peace.

Ro 8:6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+8:6&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Carnality is ego driven to validate and prove itself right. It wants acceptance and approval for its actions. Carnality resists anything contrary to its establish ideologies. This includes the truths of God and inspirations of the Holy Spirit. It fight against anything that it does not immediately comprehend because it exposes its weaknesses, dependence, and need of trust in God. The carnal mind cannot discern and recognize spiritual deception.

1Co 2:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+2:14&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But the natural man does not receive the thingsof the Spirit ofGod, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Carnality wants to understand and filter everything in through logic, deductive reasoning, and theory. Carnality is both an inherited and learned mindset. We are born in a carnal world and we received the same carnal mindset from Adam. Then we learn to be even more carnal as we attempt to survive and thrive. Carnality always believes in something, therefore, it creates a personal world view as it vehicle for living its own life.

1Co 3:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+3:3&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

However, the bottom line is that carnality does not want to trust God. Why? The carnal is an enemy of God. It is at war with God. It disdains the things and knowledge of God, because it cannot understand and control them.

Ro 8:7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+8:7&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Because the carnalmind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Re 22:15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+22:15&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

To be spiritual means to trust God. There is no distance or measure between carnality and spirituality with the exception of trusting God. Spirituality comes down to either trusting God or not. Spirituality has a different process than carnality. It is not learned but surrendered to. It is the only means by the Holy Spirit that the truth can be distinguish from the lie.

Joh 14:17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+14:17&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

Joh 16:13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+16:13&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

How does one possibly know that they could be operating in carnality?
1.It loves to learn and comprehend knowledge that makes one feel better about themselves.
2.It loves to boast in the knowledge it knows
3.Find it hard to trust God
4.Sees knowledge as means of pleasure, power, and profit
5.Produces strife and pride
6.Is partial and prejudice
7.Hates the truth and loves the lie

How does one possibly know that they could be operating in spirituality?
1.It loves to discovered more about God that enriches the relationship with God
2.Praises God for His inspirations and revelations
3.Trusts God regardless of knowledge
4.Sees the truth as means of communion and share with God and others
5.Produces humility and peace
6.Is not partial and prejudice but just
7.Loves the truth and hates the lie
*Bonus round- carnality is in abundance on a great many of Christian forums. LOL............

What do you think carnality is? Do you see a lot of carnality within yourself?

wow what a great question i havent read this thread till now. i will try to answer in short right now- but im going to give a longer answer later.

in short i have been going through alot of this personally for awhile. i have been christian for about 11 years now.
mind you when i became christian i was around no church or body of believers or came to internet boards such as these, i was just out there doin my thing. so i learned alot in the start, and with that knowledge i sort of swept my house, not fully of course but at the time it was a great start. then what happened is i wasnt ready for what i was trying to do. and the cares of the world came back and as the saying goes i took in 7 devils worse than the first. so i was still christian still had complete faith that god was real, but i think i shrank under the pressure as it seemed. its a case of a babe trying to shove too much down his throat at the time.

what was interesting is the wide range of excuses and reasons i gave myself, willingly letting all the cares of the world come back in and creating new ones, the most amazing thing is looking back on it is all the sinning and all that going on was allowed and was the schoolmaster teaching, i dug shallow and did not dig down to rock so then the flood came and smashed my house. i was given that time to sin because god wanted me to have a better understanding of how deep it went, so i would dig and build then he would send a flood to smash it.

then i dug and built and a flood came and smashed but when the water receded this time i noticed the corner stone was still in place and had not shifted, so i thought well ok thats good i must be down to solid ground to build upon. i also noticed there was slight difference in the stones i was stacking , i never looked close at them before but now i could see slight cracks in chips in them and impurities. but i noticed the corner stone was perfect and unchanged. so i sought more stone to build upon the foundation. i stacked it up the flood came and i noticed another stone stood along side the corner stone, and i was able to discern even more difference in the stones i was using, some toppled and disintegrated some stood firmly.

now after doing this many times and through many many floods. i noticed that the stones i stacked that stayed through their first flood never dented or nicked or chipped or shifted no matter how many floods rose or how hard it came against it. but the impure stone was utterly destroyed.

so i learned i was for sure building on solid earth, and i learned how to look for good stone to build with becoming ever more discerning and not relying on luck or mass amounts of trial and error. over time the building began to rise and take shape.

then an amazing thing happened the flood came and i watched and for the first time i could see part of the building i was making stood above the flood, and i thought to myself wow the flood is coming but if i can just get a little higher i myself will not get wet i can continue working even when the flood is around me for i will be inside the walls high enough to protect me.

so now i am inside a solid foundation stacked many layers high, the flood is raging around me now and i have many layers to stack and build and much work ahead , but now when the flood comes i dont have to move i can keep building from the inside of my building.

wow the short version seems pretty long -- but later i will try to go into what i feel i am being carnal about now and where i find i am failing to walk in spirit.

Scubadude
Jun 29th 2008, 12:17 AM
Must be the man-paps, I am a little out of shape, although round is a shape too. I see you've been around but have not crossed threads.


What is your opinion on the term 'carnal christian'? Having seen and experienced massive beatings about the neck and shoulders with this phrase, I find the use of it comes when someone is being judged, and usually with a tone of superiority. I think it's one of those old religious expressions that deserves to die, like the word "co-dependant". Too much baggage behind it to attempt redefining for making it useful when talking to someone. Better to just let some things decay naturally. Thank God it is his grace that teaches us to say "no" to fleshly desires. Most Christians are/becoming aware they deserve judgment. Hurt felt, punishment forgiven, that is the power of the gospel.

manichunter
Jun 29th 2008, 03:36 AM
You aren't really a seminary professor, are you.


yes i am, for about seven years...........

manichunter
Jun 29th 2008, 03:43 AM
In your Bio it says you are a business man, in Insurance and securities. :o:o

As a police officer in training, I know the career is very consuming. Would you mind explaining how you can have both careers?

This is still very much on topic.

I went to insurance school for P/C then started to work free lance with a friend who owns his own group. Then I got other lincenses sense I had already started. It is a side job that I hope will become my job. I want to get out of law enforcement all together. I am an associate mininster, praise and worship leader, father, husband, insurance agent, seminary instructor, cop, and coach. Hence I have very little free time. Plus for a bonus I got a mean ex-wife. LOL

1of7000
Jun 29th 2008, 03:52 AM
What is your opinion on the term 'carnal christian'?

Why did you have to ask me that?? Now I gotta say things and folks will whine and cry and gnash their teeth. (insert evil laugh here)

Any Chistian that "has the form of godliness but denies the power thereof" is a carnal Christian. This includes but is not limited to Those that plead the blood of Jesus but ignore the power of the resurrected Christ. Those that fail to love God Heart,soul,mind and strength and don't love their neighbor. Those that claim to be taught by God but don't have a clue when it comes to the Pauline epistles. Somehow hear from God yet deny the other eight manifestions of the gift of holy spirit. Immerse themselves in the study of God's Word only to uphold the traditions of the mainstream denominations and not read what is there.(a personal pet peeve, there is no gift of "discernment" it is the manifestation of discerning of spirits)

OSAS, NOSAS, Calivinists, Armenians, facination with the book of Revelation are a distraction from actually living God's Word. It all looks pretty pretty but as Maxwell Smart used to say, after smashing into a wall, "missed it by that much".

In short those have no real heart for God or people. They fail to take God into their lives and keep Him at arm's length. Shall I continue?

Gift of God
Jun 29th 2008, 03:58 AM
This post has meandered far enough from the point, let's not have it get any worse.

As for the OP - it strikes me that all of us by our very nature have yet to purge the carnal self. It isn't in this life that we can overcome such things - although we can certainly strive to step away from them, and we should.

Thanks for sharing this

We can overcome such things in this life.

manichunter
Jun 29th 2008, 04:25 AM
This might be a little controversial but this is what I teach. It is not an exact science so get me a little break here for I speak as a man. LOL

Anyone, every believer as to go through the process of being transformed by the renewing of their mind. The putting off the old man and putting on the new man does not just happen the same instants we received Jesus as Savior. No the Holy Spirit has been sent to prepare the Bride to receive the bridegroom. It is the ultimate work of the Spirit and what He has ordained per individual to raise them up for the work of their personal ministries. He has ordained discipleship as the means of maturing saints and provided mentors that have about finished their course to be our examples. So salvation might be a gift of God, but the process of sanctification that ends in our glorification comes at a cost of death and destruction to the old carnal man daily. We have to put the new man on, and this is no easy task............ The carnal man fights with all his might to keep the reigns of our life in his hands..........


I provided these stages for a believer on the thread "Life Cycle of the Believer"


Ro 12:2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+12:2&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

1Pe 2:2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1pe+2:2&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

Eph 4: 11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eph+4:11&sr=1&t=nas) And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eph+4:12&sr=1&t=nas) for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eph+4:13&sr=1&t=nas) until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eph+4:14&sr=1&t=nas) As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming

Again, these are not exact figures, but hypothetical generalizations:

1.Believers that have not been discipled (disciplined the ways of God) = 99% carnal and 1% spiritual
2.Disciples who have not finished discipleship= 75% carnal, 25% spiritual
3.Servant who has entered into the work God called them to do= 50% carnality, 50% spiritual
4.Master Servant= 25% carnal, 75% spiritual.

Without the spiritual refining fire of the Spirit through discipleship and afflictions, carnality will not and cannot be removed. The impurities simply stay in us until we surrender to the smoldering process of transformation away from the conformity to this world and into one in the image of the kingdom.

Athanasius
Jun 29th 2008, 04:30 AM
How does one possibly know that they could be operating in carnality?
1.It loves to learn and comprehend knowledge that makes one feel better about themselves.
2.It loves to boast in the knowledge it knows
3.Find it hard to trust God
4.Sees knowledge as means of pleasure, power, and profit
5.Produces strife and pride
6.Is partial and prejudice
7.Hates the truth and loves the lie

How does one possibly know that they could be operating in spirituality?
1.It loves to discovered more about God that enriches the relationship with God
2.Praises God for His inspirations and revelations
3.Trusts God regardless of knowledge
4.Sees the truth as means of communion and share with God and others
5.Produces humility and peace
6.Is not partial and prejudice but just
7.Loves the truth and hates the lie
*Bonus round- carnality is in abundance on a great many of Christian forums. LOL............

What do you think carnality is? Do you see a lot of carnality within yourself?

How are you defining knowledge and pleasure? Because I, for one, take pleasure in knowledge. I'm inquisitive, analytical, I like to know things. Now, I also trust God regardless of what I know--the intrinsic witness of the Spirit aids me through periods of doubt. I've had discussions with a great many professors from quite substantial [atheistic] universities. I've had many questions posed towards me that I did not know the answer to, that did cause me to 'worry'. It's a difficult thing as a student to be asked a question by a person in the 'field' you desire to enter, a man (or woman, though I've yet to have the pleasure) with twelve years of university education and who, by all accounts, 'knows' what he's talking about. Being asked these questions and stuttering out answers that might appease a high school, maybe even first year undergrad. but definitely not going to fly by a highly educated individual. Now with all this said, all that worry; all of it is abrogated by the Spirit and His witness in my life. There are things I don't know now, there will be things I won't know in the future (but will eventually know), and there will be things I will never know, even if I enquire after them.

So while I do enjoy seeking knowledge, I fully trust God; without the witness of the Holy Spirit, there are a lot of things which would cause me to severely doubt my faith. So on that I can see what you're saying, but maybe I misunderstand you? Assuming your definitions of 'pleasure' and 'knowledge'? But in any case, what say ye?

**Now, to also add as an aside. When I don't watch myself, when I push God off to the side, 'how much I know' can become an area of power, of pride. I will, for instance, even while knowing better, try to debate people into the Kingdom, which doesn't work. Something I've been learning for many years now. So in that sense I have gone from the 'carnal', to the 'Spiritual', and occasionally back again. But on the whole I don't think seeking knowledge and taking pleasure in it is inherently carnal.

manichunter
Jun 29th 2008, 04:39 AM
How are you defining knowledge and pleasure? Because I, for one, take pleasure in knowledge. I'm inquisitive, analytical, I like to know things. Now, I also trust God regardless of what I know--the intrinsic witness of the Spirit aids me through periods of doubt. I've had discussions with a great many professors from quite substantial [atheistic] universities. I've had many questions posed towards me that I did not know the answer to, that did cause me to 'worry'. It's a difficult thing as a student to be asked a question by a person in the 'field' you desire to enter, a man (or woman, though I've yet to have the pleasure) with twelve years of university education and who, by all accounts, 'knows' what he's talking about. Being asked these questions and stuttering out answers that might appease a high school, maybe even first year undergrad. but definitely not going to fly by a highly educated individual. Now with all this said, all that worry; all of it is abrogated by the Spirit and His witness in my life. There are things I don't know now, there will be things I won't know in the future (but will eventually know), and there will be things I will never know, even if I enquire after them.

So while I do enjoy seeking knowledge, I fully trust God; without the witness of the Holy Spirit, there are a lot of things which would cause me to severely doubt my faith. So on that I can see what you're saying, but maybe I misunderstand you? Assuming your definitions of 'pleasure' and 'knowledge'? But in any case, what say ye?

Not that you are wrong. I believe God ultimately wants us to seek truth and this truth is Him. Hence knowledge is limited depending on the goal. Hence I was referring to Earthly knowledge as bad or insufficient if it does not ultimately lead to the glorifying of God. Therefore nothing is wrong with studying physics as long as God is known and accredited as the master and author of physics.

manichunter
Jun 29th 2008, 04:47 AM
Is there a believer life cycle?

This is something we teach at our church that has helped us greatly. I think others might want to know. If you disagree, let me know. This might be a little controversial. We believe that the christian spiritual rebirth immulates the natural maturing, learning, and responsibility process. This process comes from Scripture and the Biblical talmid system. It was followed by Jesus Himself in the training and equipping of His disciples. It is illustrated from as far back as Moses/Joshua, Elijah/Elisha and Eli/Samuel.

We start first with what we call a believer. This is equated with a new born baby and young child (1Pe 2:2) . This a person who has been born again spiritually and needs intensive care and direction. They remain mostly dependant and stuck in an infantile spiritual state (Heb 5:13). They have very little knowledge and application of Truth. They might know a ot of Scripture and still not know alot of truth. This is not an age dependent thing. A person can remain a believer throughout their entire life if they do not yearn or strive for the next step in the life cycle. In order to go to the next level, the believer is going to have make a few basic commitments and sacrifices. They are going to have pick up their own cross, deny themselves, and be a disciple (follower/talmid) of Yeshua (Mt 16:24). They will have to have a change of mindset and affections towards heaven and away from the material world and its treasures (Col 3:1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/search.cgi?t=amp&s=0&sr=1&q=Col+3%3A1)). If they never strive for the next level, they will remain mostly spiritually ignorant, dependent and entrapped by the world's lust and material lures. This is the largest group of any congregation.

Next we have the disciple. This the equated to a teenager enrolled in an apprenticeship program. This person has committed to live in spirit and truth. They want to achieve their personal calling. Normal life, lust for worldly things, and the devil will not stop. They desire to strive towards the mark of their high calling. They want meat and a personal knowledge of their Lord. They have committed to the three phases of discipleship in accordance with the Scriptural culture of Yeshua. Yeshua followed this pattern of discipleship in His three years of ministry. Discipleship consist of the learning phase, character building phase, and the application phase.

The learning phase is for the disciple to learn spiritual truths, knowledge, and revelations. It mostly a sit down and record phase as the instructor passes his knowledge onto his apprentices.

The character building phase is for the disciple to be edified, refined, and molded into the character required for achieving their personal calling. It is by afflictions and sufferings that God changes the character of His disciples. This is like bootcamp. Many drop out doing this phase back into the crowd with the believers. This is when a person gets introduced to their calling asked of them by God because the training gets specific and detailed.

The application phase is when the disciple starts applying what they know under supervision and monitoring. It is here where they start experimenting with what they know so they can develop wisdom (THIS IS WHERE I AM IN THE DISCIPLESHIP PROCESS). They are starting to walk in the steps of their calling. They are learning how to instruct and shepherd God's people in a teachers' aid role. They are being made ready to go to the next level of life cycle of the believer. God starts putting them on the battlefield where they can fight face to face with their enemy in his full fury. This has proven difficult for me personally. I have personaly been attacked so viciously that I feel like screaming now.

Then we have the servant. This equated to an adult up to the age of retirement. Now a person is walking and living their calling everyday. They have been equipped with the knowledge, character, and wisdom to instruct and shepherd the people of God. Their calling is now heading towards something new called a destiny. They are the leaders, instructors, and shepherds of the whole discipleship system. They are the elders. It is their responsibility to prepare the next generation for leadership. If this servant position is never developed in a local body, then the body is in a world of hurt. It would scare most churches to learn that their pastor is still a disciple himself. This why a lot of local bodies fall apart after a pastor leaves. No one was groomed to step in and properly fulfill the servants role.

Lastly we have the Master-Servant. This is equated to a senior citizen. I will not go into this one much because few people ever reach it (Moses, Elijah, and Paul got here). This person has accomplished their destiny. Now they are waiting to fly to their master. They have finished their course as Paul said. The rest of their life is just gravy for the benefit of others. They are the senor advisors with the greatest amount of wisdom. They are able to fulfill multiple servant roles in a pinch if required. This office is woefully missed.

What do you think? Are we half crazy to receive and implement this discipleship system?
Let me know.

Athanasius
Jun 29th 2008, 04:50 AM
Not that you are wrong. I believe God ultimately wants us to seek truth and this truth is Him. Hence knowledge is limited depending on the goal. Hence I was referring to Earthly knowledge as bad or insufficient if it does not ultimately lead to the glorifying of God. Therefore nothing is wrong with studying physics as long as God is known and accredited as the master and author of physics.

Oh don't worry, I'm perfectly fine with being wrong :}
(Not that I was...)

I get what you're saying though. You're talking about knowledge as it has been divorced from the revelation of God, going along the lines of Romans 1 (specifically verses 20 to 22ish...). Knowledge that has become a god in and of itself--someone who lives, strives and essentially worships the pursuit of knowledge; something created rather than the creator. I think I'll leave things at that for now...

theothersock
Jun 29th 2008, 05:18 AM
wow what a great question i havent read this thread till now. i will try to answer in short right now- but im going to give a longer answer later.

in short i have been going through alot of this personally for awhile. i have been christian for about 11 years now.
mind you when i became christian i was around no church or body of believers or came to internet boards such as these, i was just out there doin my thing. so i learned alot in the start, and with that knowledge i sort of swept my house, not fully of course but at the time it was a great start. then what happened is i wasnt ready for what i was trying to do. and the cares of the world came back and as the saying goes i took in 7 devils worse than the first. so i was still christian still had complete faith that god was real, but i think i shrank under the pressure as it seemed. its a case of a babe trying to shove too much down his throat at the time.

what was interesting is the wide range of excuses and reasons i gave myself, willingly letting all the cares of the world come back in and creating new ones, the most amazing thing is looking back on it is all the sinning and all that going on was allowed and was the schoolmaster teaching, i dug shallow and did not dig down to rock so then the flood came and smashed my house. i was given that time to sin because god wanted me to have a better understanding of how deep it went, so i would dig and build then he would send a flood to smash it.

then i dug and built and a flood came and smashed but when the water receded this time i noticed the corner stone was still in place and had not shifted, so i thought well ok thats good i must be down to solid ground to build upon. i also noticed there was slight difference in the stones i was stacking , i never looked close at them before but now i could see slight cracks in chips in them and impurities. but i noticed the corner stone was perfect and unchanged. so i sought more stone to build upon the foundation. i stacked it up the flood came and i noticed another stone stood along side the corner stone, and i was able to discern even more difference in the stones i was using, some toppled and disintegrated some stood firmly.

now after doing this many times and through many many floods. i noticed that the stones i stacked that stayed through their first flood never dented or nicked or chipped or shifted no matter how many floods rose or how hard it came against it. but the impure stone was utterly destroyed.

so i learned i was for sure building on solid earth, and i learned how to look for good stone to build with becoming ever more discerning and not relying on luck or mass amounts of trial and error. over time the building began to rise and take shape.

then an amazing thing happened the flood came and i watched and for the first time i could see part of the building i was making stood above the flood, and i thought to myself wow the flood is coming but if i can just get a little higher i myself will not get wet i can continue working even when the flood is around me for i will be inside the walls high enough to protect me.

so now i am inside a solid foundation stacked many layers high, the flood is raging around me now and i have many layers to stack and build and much work ahead , but now when the flood comes i dont have to move i can keep building from the inside of my building.

wow the short version seems pretty long -- but later i will try to go into what i feel i am being carnal about now and where i find i am failing to walk in spirit.

This was TRULY meaningful and inspiring. Thank you, and praise the one who inspired you.

Zack702
Jun 29th 2008, 05:45 AM
This is how I see it.The word carnalis means fleshy.

Carnality is born in what you think.
Spirituality is born in what you feel.

Carnality is from the imagination.
Spirituality is from the spirit.

Spirituality can influence carnality.
Carnality can influence spirituality.

I find that moderation is the key.

Not everyone is influenced in the same way.

We are unique each one of us.

If we be over carnal and one comes along and shows us spiritual miracles we are greatly influenced but we need not miracles if we are moderate. A balance if you will.

If we be over carnal we despise the spiritual.
If we are over spiritual we despise the carnal.

So rejoice that we are in the flesh. And even more that we have spirit.

If we accomplish nothing we have gained nothing. If we accomplish much we have gained much.

We need to take heed however that the things we accomplish are good. This is why we need to have knowledge. The need for knowledge is great so that we find a good balance and accomplish good things.

This is why knowledge is wonderfull it is the fruit of our lips. If we are in a balance we hear all things and grow and rejoice. If we are out of balance we only hear ourselves and are frustrated.

Knowledge is like a seed placed in your hand. You can say I have no need for it and cast it away. Or you can plant it and make it grow.

Think of all the knowledge in the bible and it's parables. Think what the world might be like were it not for knowledge such as this. It is spiritualy driven and carnaly given.

manichunter
Jun 29th 2008, 09:20 PM
are the percentages of carnality about correct

fewarechosen
Jun 29th 2008, 09:38 PM
Is there a believer life cycle?

This is something we teach at our church that has helped us greatly. I think others might want to know. If you disagree, let me know. This might be a little controversial. We believe that the christian spiritual rebirth immulates the natural maturing, learning, and responsibility process. This process comes from Scripture and the Biblical talmid system. It was followed by Jesus Himself in the training and equipping of His disciples. It is illustrated from as far back as Moses/Joshua, Elijah/Elisha and Eli/Samuel.

We start first with what we call a believer. This is equated with a new born baby and young child (1Pe 2:2) . This a person who has been born again spiritually and needs intensive care and direction. They remain mostly dependant and stuck in an infantile spiritual state (Heb 5:13). They have very little knowledge and application of Truth. They might know a ot of Scripture and still not know alot of truth. This is not an age dependent thing. A person can remain a believer throughout their entire life if they do not yearn or strive for the next step in the life cycle. In order to go to the next level, the believer is going to have make a few basic commitments and sacrifices. They are going to have pick up their own cross, deny themselves, and be a disciple (follower/talmid) of Yeshua (Mt 16:24). They will have to have a change of mindset and affections towards heaven and away from the material world and its treasures (Col 3:1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/search.cgi?t=amp&s=0&sr=1&q=Col+3%3A1)). If they never strive for the next level, they will remain mostly spiritually ignorant, dependent and entrapped by the world's lust and material lures. This is the largest group of any congregation.

Next we have the disciple. This the equated to a teenager enrolled in an apprenticeship program. This person has committed to live in spirit and truth. They want to achieve their personal calling. Normal life, lust for worldly things, and the devil will not stop. They desire to strive towards the mark of their high calling. They want meat and a personal knowledge of their Lord. They have committed to the three phases of discipleship in accordance with the Scriptural culture of Yeshua. Yeshua followed this pattern of discipleship in His three years of ministry. Discipleship consist of the learning phase, character building phase, and the application phase.

The learning phase is for the disciple to learn spiritual truths, knowledge, and revelations. It mostly a sit down and record phase as the instructor passes his knowledge onto his apprentices.

The character building phase is for the disciple to be edified, refined, and molded into the character required for achieving their personal calling. It is by afflictions and sufferings that God changes the character of His disciples. This is like bootcamp. Many drop out doing this phase back into the crowd with the believers. This is when a person gets introduced to their calling asked of them by God because the training gets specific and detailed.

The application phase is when the disciple starts applying what they know under supervision and monitoring. It is here where they start experimenting with what they know so they can develop wisdom (THIS IS WHERE I AM IN THE DISCIPLESHIP PROCESS). They are starting to walk in the steps of their calling. They are learning how to instruct and shepherd God's people in a teachers' aid role. They are being made ready to go to the next level of life cycle of the believer. God starts putting them on the battlefield where they can fight face to face with their enemy in his full fury. This has proven difficult for me personally. I have personaly been attacked so viciously that I feel like screaming now.

Then we have the servant. This equated to an adult up to the age of retirement. Now a person is walking and living their calling everyday. They have been equipped with the knowledge, character, and wisdom to instruct and shepherd the people of God. Their calling is now heading towards something new called a destiny. They are the leaders, instructors, and shepherds of the whole discipleship system. They are the elders. It is their responsibility to prepare the next generation for leadership. If this servant position is never developed in a local body, then the body is in a world of hurt. It would scare most churches to learn that their pastor is still a disciple himself. This why a lot of local bodies fall apart after a pastor leaves. No one was groomed to step in and properly fulfill the servants role.

Lastly we have the Master-Servant. This is equated to a senior citizen. I will not go into this one much because few people ever reach it (Moses, Elijah, and Paul got here). This person has accomplished their destiny. Now they are waiting to fly to their master. They have finished their course as Paul said. The rest of their life is just gravy for the benefit of others. They are the senor advisors with the greatest amount of wisdom. They are able to fulfill multiple servant roles in a pinch if required. This office is woefully missed.

What do you think? Are we half crazy to receive and implement this discipleship system?
Let me know.

in principle i totally agree -- we grow and mature

i sort of have a thing against labels or whatever -- i would rather think of it as one long process never finished untill your dead.

that being said i have seen different stages in myself, but i dont think everyones stages are the same.

so the break down might not be a good thing -- but letting someone know the type of growth and pitfalls is a good idea. also i think the more and more you learn the more you become susceptible to pride -- someone thinks well im a masterservent - you little babes lol-- or you get people trying to rank themselves on some scale.

to god we are all babes

so like i said i love the concept and its one not often talked about -- just carefull with --rankings

Zack702
Jun 30th 2008, 02:48 PM
are the percentages of carnality about correct

I would say they are manifested within us. Each one unique is able to manifest according to how they balance the two.

One day you might be in balance but the next maybe not. Only God knows the full truth.

We can speculate and often times we are correct but only God knows the full truth.
The bible has helped me to verify or void many of my own assumptions when it comes to the percentages of these. Another way to verify or void these (about myself) is the reactions people have to my presence, speech and actions.

fewarechosen
Jun 30th 2008, 03:02 PM
I would say they are manifested within us. Each one unique is able to manifest according to how they balance the two.

One day you might be in balance but the next maybe not. Only God knows the full truth.

We can speculate and often times we are correct but only God knows the full truth.
The bible has helped me to verify or void many of my own assumptions when it comes to the percentages of these. Another way to verify or void these (about myself) is the reactions people have to my presence, speech and actions.

i must disagree zack,

i say we must at all cost kill "mortify our member" we cannot serve 2 masters. only flesh or spirit, our spirit wars against our members. so yes we are carnal and spirit but we are called to only be spirit -- yet taught lessons through our flesh.

Zack702
Jun 30th 2008, 03:34 PM
i must disagree zack,

i say we must at all cost kill "mortify our member" we cannot serve 2 masters. only flesh or spirit, our spirit wars against our members. so yes we are carnal and spirit but we are called to only be spirit -- yet taught lessons through our flesh.

God made us to keep the garden. To harvest plants and eat with rejoice. This is the flesh this is the good carnal way.

How then can we only be called to follow the spirit? Should we just thank God for our spirit lay down and die?

When you go without food or water your spirit will call out for them. Prove me otherwise and I will be amazed.

fewarechosen
Jun 30th 2008, 03:40 PM
God made us to keep the garden. To harvest plants and eat with rejoice. This is the flesh this is the good carnal way.

How then can we only be called to follow the spirit? Should we just thank God for our spirit lay down and die?

When you go without food or water your spirit will call out for them! Prove me otherwise and I will be amazed.

hey zack -- i will come back with scripture later i am somewhat short on time,

but remember this -- christ went 40 days without food or water- his body called out to it , but he dominated his body - he showed it that he could starve it to death yet he would still live for the spirit was in him - and he had meat that the world knows not.

christs body called-- and he did not listen,

we do not lay down and die because we are called to wage war in the spirit -- our lives and are flesh are not important , but following gods will is.

Zack702
Jun 30th 2008, 03:48 PM
hey zack -- i will come back with scripture later i am somewhat short on time,

but remember this -- christ went 40 days without food or water- his body called out to it , but he dominated his body - he showed it that he could starve it to death yet he would still live for the spirit was in him - and he had meat that the world knows not.

christs body called-- and he did not listen,

we do not lay down and die because we are called to wage war in the spirit -- our lives and are flesh are not important , but following gods will is.

I understand about Christ and I also understand that there is no man like him. We are not born of angels we are born of flesh.

I personally do not lay down and die because I love my flesh. We love our God who gave us our flesh and the world that surrounds it.

Spirit is a part of that yes and the holy spirit is even more powerful than our own. It can cause miracles to happen that are what we call "supernatural" but that is not the way it worked out to be else it would be all the time without question.


I remember when Jesus said it is better to cut off a member that causes you to sin then to let it keep you from entering heaven. But this has nothing to do with hating your flesh but rather sin. In a way he was showing us that we love our flesh and we would rather keep it than cut it off. This further elaborates the balance that is necessary between the two yea you love your flesh you don't want to cut your hand off so hate the sin you are able to do. The sin will throw you off balance and it is the balance that is key.

jewel4Christ
Jun 30th 2008, 04:24 PM
Interesting thread.

I want to read through the whole thing later and see if I can add anything.

You know, I think there is a distinction between loving one's flesh, and realizing that it is not what God is concerned with, as building character through...having our minds renewed from day to day.

The flesh is weak, but the spirit is willing.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and, God is not trying to make our flesh stronger in anyway, shape or form.

In fact, He is trying to get us to the point where we can realize that it is already dead..and, that we should leave it there, and, grow in the spirit.

peaceandlove,

janet

fewarechosen
Jun 30th 2008, 05:26 PM
Interesting thread.

I want to read through the whole thing later and see if I can add anything.

You know, I think there is a distinction between loving one's flesh, and realizing that it is not what God is concerned with, as building character through...having our minds renewed from day to day.

The flesh is weak, but the spirit is willing.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and, God is not trying to make our flesh stronger in anyway, shape or form.

In fact, He is trying to get us to the point where we can realize that it is already dead..and, that we should leave it there, and, grow in the spirit.

peaceandlove,

janet

yea you do have a point with that because our body is our temple

manichunter
Jun 30th 2008, 09:09 PM
yea you do have a point with that because our body is our temple


Actually the body is His Temple (Holy Spirit). We have been bought with a price. This is one of carnality's issues. Who has the ownership rights to the body.

jewel4Christ
Jun 30th 2008, 11:59 PM
Actually the body is His Temple (Holy Spirit). We have been bought with a price. This is one of carnality's issues. Who has the ownership rights to the body.


I think he meant that our body is our temple where He now dwells.

I could be wrong though...

but, I agree with you here. We do not have ownership, once we become a mature christian, we have learned to put away the old man, and that entails dying to our own will/flesh.

I believe it is a process, because I believe the bible teaches it in that manner.

We learn over time, as a christian to DIE to this flesh, once we begin the battle of warring with it. We must surrender, lol.

Surrender means, coming to a point where we can say, "Ok Lord, not my will be done, but yours".



peaceandlove,

janet

manichunter
Jul 1st 2008, 01:17 PM
I think he meant that our body is our temple where He now dwells.

I could be wrong though...

but, I agree with you here. We do not have ownership, once we become a mature christian, we have learned to put away the old man, and that entails dying to our own will/flesh.

I believe it is a process, because I believe the bible teaches it in that manner.

We learn over time, as a christian to DIE to this flesh, once we begin the battle of warring with it. We must surrender, lol.

Surrender means, coming to a point where we can say, "Ok Lord, not my will be done, but yours".



peaceandlove,

janet

Know ye not that you are the temple of God.

1Co 3:16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+3:16&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1Co 6:20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+6:20&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

fewarechosen
Jul 1st 2008, 01:49 PM
Actually the body is His Temple (Holy Spirit). We have been bought with a price. This is one of carnality's issues. Who has the ownership rights to the body.


yea sorry for the confusion i kind of just assumed no one would think our body is a temple to ourselves or something. its the holy spirits temple because hes holy and we are not. so i think thats a case of lazy typing

when i said its our temple i sort of ment its our responsability to keep it in order -- we cant just do whatever we want-- we cant just say well its the holy spirits temple and i personally dont have to do anything, thats all i really ment.

its not the same as if i had a car , then someone purchased it off me -- because then i would have nothing to do with the car anymore.

manichunter
Jul 1st 2008, 02:01 PM
yea sorry for the confusion i kind of just assumed no one would think our body is a temple to ourselves or something. its the holy spirits temple because hes holy and we are not. so i think thats a case of lazy typing

when i said its our temple i sort of ment its our responsability to keep it in order -- we cant just do whatever we want-- we cant just say well its the holy spirits temple and i personally dont have to do anything, thats all i really ment.

its not the same as if i had a car , then someone purchased it off me -- because then i would have nothing to do with the car anymore.

That is true, we do have a stewardship.

Do you know a deeper truth is that we make ourselves rebels and renegades when we defile the temple of the Holy Spirit. It is like literally spitting and throwind dung on and in God's house.

fewarechosen
Jul 1st 2008, 03:02 PM
That is true, we do have a stewardship.

Do you know a deeper truth is that we make ourselves rebels and renegades when we defile the temple of the Holy Spirit. It is like literally spitting and throwind dung on and in God's house.


oh yea everytime we sin we are defiling the very temple he put us in charge of, you cant be lax at all.

threebigrocks
Jul 1st 2008, 03:44 PM
Actually the body is His Temple (Holy Spirit). We have been bought with a price. This is one of carnality's issues. Who has the ownership rights to the body.

Actually, it's ours. We get it back, raise immortal at the time of judgement. It was given us by God in order to exist through the miracle of conception and birth.

Paul struggled with the notion of flesh, in that he had many fleshy struggles in just staying alive. Yet he desired so to do the Lord's work that he wished to remain here to do His will just as much as he want to be out of his flesh and to be present with the Lord. Flesh allows us to type here, to speak and to do God's work. Nothing wrong with that!


oh yea everytime we sin we are defiling the very temple he put us in charge of, you cant be lax at all.

Is sin originating in the heart or in the flesh?

manichunter
Jul 1st 2008, 04:02 PM
Actually, it's ours. We get it back, raise immortal at the time of judgement. It was given us by God in order to exist through the miracle of conception and birth.

Paul struggled with the notion of flesh, in that he had many fleshy struggles in just staying alive. Yet he desired so to do the Lord's work that he wished to remain here to do His will just as much as he want to be out of his flesh and to be present with the Lord. Flesh allows us to type here, to speak and to do God's work. Nothing wrong with that!



Is sin originating in the heart or in the flesh?

(Just for clarity) So you are saying it is the Holy Spirit's temple now but will be returned to us in eternity as our own glorified tabernacle.

(Is this where sin comes from) Sin originates in left over trangression in our soul. The old programming of sin that is fighting its deletion........... Our selfishness, perogative, and self appointed interests. All these things have to be overwritten by the will of God.

fewarechosen
Jul 1st 2008, 04:38 PM
Actually, it's ours. We get it back, raise immortal at the time of judgement. It was given us by God in order to exist through the miracle of conception and birth.

Paul struggled with the notion of flesh, in that he had many fleshy struggles in just staying alive. Yet he desired so to do the Lord's work that he wished to remain here to do His will just as much as he want to be out of his flesh and to be present with the Lord. Flesh allows us to type here, to speak and to do God's work. Nothing wrong with that!



Is sin originating in the heart or in the flesh?


well i think i see what your getting at so maybe let me clarify what i am thinking,

we are the temple -- the holy spirit is in the temple -- the holy spirit is not the temple

we can defile the temple -- but we cannot defile the holy spirit in the temple

does that make sense ?

Zack702
Jul 2nd 2008, 04:09 AM
we are the temple -- the holy spirit is in the temple -- the holy spirit is not the temple

we can defile the temple -- but we cannot defile the holy spirit in the temple

does that make sense ?

Yea I think I am getting some sense out of this.

That our body is ours. If we take on the holy spirit our body becomes or is capable of becoming the temple of the holy spirit ?

What then?

On what level do we perceive that we are indeed the temple?

I am not to keen on the understandings of the holy spirit. I was told I was given it or had it on more than one occasion but to my shame I feel that I do not wield it properly.

manichunter
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:16 PM
Yea I think I am getting some sense out of this.

That our body is ours. If we take on the holy spirit our body becomes or is capable of becoming the temple of the holy spirit ?

What then?

On what level do we perceive that we are indeed the temple?

I am not to keen on the understandings of the holy spirit. I was told I was given it or had it on more than one occasion but to my shame I feel that I do not wield it properly.

I feel the same confusion as well. Study I will..........

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 08:35 PM
Yea I think I am getting some sense out of this.

That our body is ours. If we take on the holy spirit our body becomes or is capable of becoming the temple of the holy spirit ?

What then?

On what level do we perceive that we are indeed the temple?

I am not to keen on the understandings of the holy spirit. I was told I was given it or had it on more than one occasion but to my shame I feel that I do not wield it properly.


hey zack, ill share my personal experience to let you know where i am coming from. as i was growing up i used to ponder god alot, becuase in my logical mind i thought if god is not real then im free to do whatever i want, i decide right and wrong no one else, i could kill a baby for a lollipop if i wanted it and if no harm came of it to me it was not wrong at all , because in the end im dead and it didnt matter, now i lumped all religions together as stupid weak minded people who needed something to believe in -- yet i personally used to talk to god saying if your out there you better let me know cause im not taking anyones word for it-- if your god and your all powerfull then show me otherwise your no god to me , because you have all power and you choose to ignore me . then i would taunt him -- with all manner of creative curses that i cant type here and i use to beg god to kill me just to taunt, and this lasted for years and years. something in my mind thought that all my eyes saw could not be random it seemed unlogical -- but i also thought well if god doesnt choose to show himself to me well then im not taking any mans word for it. so needless to say i was driving myself crazy in a way, cause it consumed me thats all i wanted to know. then i became very close to a person who was in much distress
and i started to whine and cry and curse to god,

and one night while i was alseep i had a vision of a perfect fetus in blue and white light -- somehow i knew it was perfect- and i hear a booming voice say "the one good thing" it tripped me out because it was more real and more clear than anything i can see with my eye or hear with my ears. mind you at this time i did not believe in christ or even know what that was -- i just knew something happend.

so then i started to read more and after time i picked up a bible and everything started to click. i started to understand things like about hating your life and such and was like wow this makes sense.

now i went on reading the bible prolly read all of it a couple times over the next couple years sinking in more and more -- then about 5 years or so after the vision it dawned on me wow thats when i was baptised -- i was like how could i have been so dumb to not notice thats why it was a vision of a fetus. so i had the holy spirit and didnt even know it ,even after having a vision and such for the longest time i didnt even think of it as a vision i just used to think "something happend".

so now that was my personal experience -- and i know everyones is different. god might have said ok give this fool a vision because hes not gonna believe anything written or heard from anyone cause hes a stubborn idiot. and in no way am i saying i did anything to deserve it or cause it to happen , just explaining my mindset at the time. god quickens who he wants, why he wants.

now i know i have the spirit in me cause its been like 11 years since then, and it becomes clearer over time, you start to pull away from your own mind and see how your mind is in error, and you start to grow in faith , after 11 years i feel im finaly starting to grow in faith. i can see more and more sins that i commit that i used to think arent sins and so on.

we dont wield the holy spirit it wields us and the more we can clean our temple the more he can use-- remove the mote :) -- it goes to the scripture of making our eye single -- the less we serve the flesh the more we can serve the spirit -- our flesh wars with the spirit, my flesh wants nice things and nice women and wants drunkeness and all sorts of evil -- but the spirit points them out as such and it becomes clear to me if i am giving in -- so i try to avoid those sins and remove myself from temptation and build on that which is good and avoid that which is evil.

we all grow - the spirit starts out as a infant -- a mustard seed-- we are the soil -- and it will grow in time, follow christs example, you already know it to be true. i see no doubt from many of your posts that you think christ is real. some will tell you , you need this ritual or that ritual or something else -- but you know all you need is god.

we harbor what is holy inside of us -- so we should act like it, in the old testement the temple was on earth made by human hands, you could defile a temple by flinging dung on it -- now the dung we fling on it is our sin -- that dung never touches the holiness in the temple but it defaces the temple -- just like in old testement- they could destroy the earthly temple but they could not destroy god. because god was not the temple.

hope that helps -- if you ever want to discuss more feel free to pvt message me

fewarechosen
Jul 3rd 2008, 04:52 AM
13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Zack702
Jul 3rd 2008, 06:03 AM
I gave this some more thoughts and so heres another posts thanks by the way for the posts on this. This has brought my thoughts back around and I am thinking more clearly now where before I was somewhat strayed.

37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

I wonder if any thought that comes between our faith keeps us from properly handling the holy spirit?
Even if we can handle it we do so by faith. We handle the faith. And the faith handles the spirit. And so through our faith, things of the spirit are manifest in this world.
I consider that the spirit does not need us. But for our sakes it is. This is why we should not seek after signs because we try to prove God without faith.

I consider that if we tell ourselves we have faith we do not. Because faith comes from the heart it needs no words it simply is. When we have faith that something is true we need not even think that it is so but rather know that it is so or will be so soon.

manichunter
Jul 3rd 2008, 03:59 PM
How does the Holy Spirit inhabit us? It says our heart in Scripture. I think it means He abides in our Spirit not our body. I believe sanctification is the Spirit taking over the rest of us and removing the influence of sin.......

fewarechosen
Jul 3rd 2008, 04:10 PM
How does the Holy Spirit inhabit us? It says our heart in Scripture. I think it means He abides in our Spirit not our body. I believe sanctification is the Spirit taking over the rest of us and removing the influence of sin.......

this scripture might help us further

18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

it also helps show us that our body and spirit arent ours but gods - he bought them

manichunter
Jul 5th 2008, 06:47 AM
this scripture might help us further

18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

it also helps show us that our body and spirit arent ours but gods - he bought them

copy roger out I understand loud and clear

Kate
Jul 5th 2008, 07:34 AM
Funny this topic should come up. I was just on vacation and happened across this message. It's a little on the long side, but worth the watch. I felt convicted by it. I warn you - it's pretty poignant, but if you have some time do watch.

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=19fd9c84c942a08316e0

manichunter
Jul 6th 2008, 01:24 PM
Funny this topic should come up. I was just on vacation and happened across this message. It's a little on the long side, but worth the watch. I felt convicted by it. I warn you - it's pretty poignant, but if you have some time do watch.

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=19fd9c84c942a08316e0

i would have to agree