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Pertto
Jun 28th 2008, 07:33 PM
A long time ago I heard a story from the bible about the rich man and his poor chances to get to heaven. I dont agree with most things the christians believe in, but I agree with the message of this story, even though i dont personally live by it. Most people that live in the western civilization dont live by the message of this story, most religious people dont live by it and all the people on these forums dont live by it.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Doesent this sentence clearly state that every person that is rich wont get to heaven? By rich I dont mean what the western civilization considers as rich, but what is rich when taking into consideration the whole world. Since 2/3 of the world lives in poverty every person on this forum can be considered wealthy and thus according to the bible is going to hell.

As i understand it many christians who are wealthy think that they can escape hell by thinking that as long as people are not too "attached" to wealth they have nothing to worry about. This is false naturally because the people that say this are extremely attached to their wealth since like I stated a lot of people are living in poverty and are in direct need of money and instead of giving money to those that really need it these christians spend it on things that they dont really need.

What do you think of this?

calidog
Jun 28th 2008, 07:38 PM
I think the love of money is a stumbling block:

1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
1Ti 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

tango
Jun 28th 2008, 10:30 PM
I don't think it says that having riches will prevent us from getting into heaven. As calidog just mentioned the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil, not money in its own right.

In the story of the rich man the problem wasn't that he was rich, the problem was that he was unwilling to give his riches away. Given the choice between keeping his riches and not gaining eternal life, or giving up his riches, he chose to keep his wealth.

It's easy to bandy about phrases like "as long as I'm not attached to it", but if I am wealthy there may come a day when I have to make that choice - to give up my worldly wealth for God's purposes, or cling to it and place it above God. What matters is how I make that choice, not how much wealth is on the table.

steph22nlly
Jun 29th 2008, 12:07 AM
It is not a sin to be rich!!!! Using the money to help others I believe has a lot to do with being a good Christian IMO

Joey Porter
Jun 29th 2008, 01:30 AM
The issue with this gospel account is that the Lord did not specify or define exactly what it is to be "rich." And since we have no definition of
"rich," we couldn't say with any certainty who really is "rich." It's a very relative term. What's "rich" to one person may not be "rich" to another.

The important thing to remember is that worldly riches are just an earthly
representation of spiritual riches. And who are those who are rich in spirit? It is those who see themselves as poor in spirit. Those who confess to being blind so that they can begin to be given eyes to see.

ilovemetal
Jun 29th 2008, 02:21 AM
no it doesn't mean the rich are going to hell. it's trying to say it's hard for the rich to enter the kingdom because; i don't know about you but who needs God when you have millions.......right????????

"they say money can't buy happiness, but money can buy a waverunner, try frowning on a wave runner"-unknown quote

truth be told everyone needs God, but to your main point, it's easier for the poor becaus they have nothing, and they're heart isn't being decieved by world pleasures, because they have none.

i guess.......hope that helps......word up.

steph22nlly
Jun 29th 2008, 08:44 PM
If I won the lotto the first thing I would do is THANK GOD! Not needing God if you have millions is rediculous! You need God no matter what! If I was rich..in money, trust me I am happy where I am, But i would help soooo many people and don't understand why the rich don't help more people! I would build housed with my bare hands for the poor, hospitals for the sick and pay people to run them....oh what I would do! It would make me feel so good to give every penny to the needy than be selfish with all of it! Don't get me wrong I'd buy a house and new car first ;) But helping people would feel so good!! Just had to ad that :O)

ImmenseDisciple
Jun 29th 2008, 10:49 PM
A long time ago I heard a story from the bible about the rich man and his poor chances to get to heaven. I dont agree with most things the christians believe in, but I agree with the message of this story, even though i dont personally live by it. Most people that live in the western civilization dont live by the message of this story, most religious people dont live by it and all the people on these forums dont live by it.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Doesent this sentence clearly state that every person that is rich wont get to heaven? By rich I dont mean what the western civilization considers as rich, but what is rich when taking into consideration the whole world. Since 2/3 of the world lives in poverty every person on this forum can be considered wealthy and thus according to the bible is going to hell.

As i understand it many christians who are wealthy think that they can escape hell by thinking that as long as people are not too "attached" to wealth they have nothing to worry about. This is false naturally because the people that say this are extremely attached to their wealth since like I stated a lot of people are living in poverty and are in direct need of money and instead of giving money to those that really need it these christians spend it on things that they dont really need.

What do you think of this?You tell someone who has nothing that the only thing they can depend upon is Christ, there's little call for them not to believe you. You tell someone who has millions to their name, they will have a much harder time accepting that the security they think their money offers is deceptive, and even more so that their money is worthless.

Christ wasn't saying that you can't have money or posessions and follow Him, He was just demonstrating that the rich man was blinded by his fortune into thinking that all his wordly wealth did him any good, and offered him anything comparable to eternal salvation.

Sold Out
Jun 29th 2008, 11:37 PM
A long time ago I heard a story from the bible about the rich man and his poor chances to get to heaven. I dont agree with most things the christians believe in, but I agree with the message of this story, even though i dont personally live by it. Most people that live in the western civilization dont live by the message of this story, most religious people dont live by it and all the people on these forums dont live by it.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Doesent this sentence clearly state that every person that is rich wont get to heaven?

What do you think of this?

In this story, Jesus is pointing out this man's sin (which happened to be idolatry). Notice how the rich man tried to prove his 'goodness' by saying he'd kept all the commandments? Jesus will find your sin, and he found this man's sin. He could not let go of his money because it had become an idol to him.

This story is not just about rich people per se', but rather how we can't be good enough to get to heaven by our own efforts. In verse 19, Jesus says that no one is good - except for God. That is the point of this story.

No one is good enough to get to heaven. Nobody.

Frances
Jun 30th 2008, 06:37 PM
As i understand it many christians who are wealthy think that they can escape hell by thinking that as long as people are not too "attached" to wealth they have nothing to worry about. This is false naturally because the people that say this are extremely attached to their wealth since like I stated a lot of people are living in poverty and are in direct need of money and instead of giving money to those that really need it these christians spend it on things that they dont really need.

What do you think of this?

I think your point of view will be taken more notice of when you, personally, are giving at least 10% of your income for the benefit of those living in poverty, and have evidence of how much of their income each Christian on this forum gives to those in need .

Jesus was, in fact, illustrating how we (you and I) put more value in 'things' than in being Forgiven by God.

HisLeast
Jun 30th 2008, 07:03 PM
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Doesent this sentence clearly state that every person that is rich wont get to heaven? By rich I dont mean what the western civilization considers as rich, but what is rich when taking into consideration the whole world. Since 2/3 of the world lives in poverty every person on this forum can be considered wealthy and thus according to the bible is going to hell.

I've heard this section explained in the context of culture. The expression "camel through the eye of a needle" was refering to the moving a camel through a walkway or gate designed for people. A figure of speech if you will. The passage is meant to say "exceedingly difficult" not impossible. We have good examples of wealthy people that were close to God, especially in the old testament (Abraham, David, Solomon, etc).

Why would it be hard for a rich person to get into heaven? Because the rich feel the effects of "need" much less in life, being able to afford fulfillment (or the illusion there-of). Though its rare, there ARE wealthy people who acknowledge the great spiritual and physical needs met by God.

Saved7
Jul 1st 2008, 03:04 AM
I don't think it says that having riches will prevent us from getting into heaven. As calidog just mentioned the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil, not money in its own right.

In the story of the rich man the problem wasn't that he was rich, the problem was that he was unwilling to give his riches away. Given the choice between keeping his riches and not gaining eternal life, or giving up his riches, he chose to keep his wealth.

It's easy to bandy about phrases like "as long as I'm not attached to it", but if I am wealthy there may come a day when I have to make that choice - to give up my worldly wealth for God's purposes, or cling to it and place it above God. What matters is how I make that choice, not how much wealth is on the table.


I'm in agreement here, it's the point where IF God calls you to make a choice, will you make the right choice?
I was making a ton of money, but felt that spiritually I was dying inside, though I was already a christian for several years. But feeling as though I was dying inside, I wanted out of the job I had, it was the thing that was draining me. And every time I went to turn in my two weeks, I got this awful knot in my gut saying "wait"...3 times I tried, and 3 times I got "wait". So I waited, and waited, a year passed, when suddenly God opened a door for me to leave and still be able to provide, just enough to get by. Now I am making 1/4 the money I was making and I am marrying a man who doesn't make as much as I did, and that's ok, because I know it was God who opened this door, and He is clearing a path for me to serve Him in some capacity.
See, I didn't love the money more than I love Him or His kingdom, it is the souls of the lost that I am sent for to find. I don't have much, and I don't much care, because I rejoice when just one comes to the One who loves them and gave His very life for them.
So please, do not think that it is impossible, I know of many many people who have left very lucrative jobs for the sake of serving our Lord, and others who maintain their wealth for the sake of giving it away to the poor and needy. I think you have judged us rather harshly without knowing us.

ServantofTruth
Jul 1st 2008, 08:19 PM
I agree with the direction in which the original poster is going. Perhaps they could consider Matthew 6:25-34.

My understanding, which meets much opposition from other Christians, is that ANYTHING you have beyond food, water, a set of clothes....well the very basics.....is bound to become a barrier between you and God.

The perfect person could be given a lottery win and do the right thing. Who is the ONLY perfect person who has and will ever live? Jesus Christ. So it's the old question what would Jesus do, or What would i do, if i could see Jesus physically standing beside me? (Because God/ Jesus is there always)

I find 'financial' topics on Christian web sites so differcult, because christians want advise, but when you mention the relevent verses, they don't want to hear them - why - BECAUSE yes it is hard. Wills, pay rates/ promotions/ over time. Can i buy this, a nice car, a bigger house in a better area - it's not for me it's for my wife/ the children.

This is Christian Answer and i believe, as i hope we all do, that honesty is always best. Wealth of any kind beyond the basics, should be used to help the poor, the sick, the hungry and to spread the gospel/ bible message.

Love and may God bless the original poster, Paul. :hug:

Pertto
Jul 7th 2008, 06:26 PM
I have to say that I am a little disappointed by the replies my post got. Most of you try to justify having wealth and using it for your own pleasure even though you fully well know that it could save hundreds of human lives. Then you go out and condemn homosexual and other that you consider to be sinners. It seems to be a bit hypocritical.

Lets suppose that what the bible says is true and Jesus sacrificed everything for us, how do you think he would feel seeing the people he gave everything for enjoying wealth while others suffered in poverty? Every person on these forums has money that they don't need for their survival and isn't giving it to those that really need it. Like i previously stated I don't think you would get off the hook by saying that you are not "attached" to your wealth and it doesn't "push" you away from God since you know that the money you have could do great things for those in need. In other words shouldn't you all be going to hell?

markinro
Jul 7th 2008, 06:51 PM
A long time ago I heard a story from the bible about the rich man and his poor chances to get to heaven. I dont agree with most things the christians believe in, but I agree with the message of this story, even though i dont personally live by it. Most people that live in the western civilization dont live by the message of this story, most religious people dont live by it and all the people on these forums dont live by it.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Doesent this sentence clearly state that every person that is rich wont get to heaven? By rich I dont mean what the western civilization considers as rich, but what is rich when taking into consideration the whole world. Since 2/3 of the world lives in poverty every person on this forum can be considered wealthy and thus according to the bible is going to hell.

As i understand it many christians who are wealthy think that they can escape hell by thinking that as long as people are not too "attached" to wealth they have nothing to worry about. This is false naturally because the people that say this are extremely attached to their wealth since like I stated a lot of people are living in poverty and are in direct need of money and instead of giving money to those that really need it these christians spend it on things that they dont really need.

What do you think of this?

First off, lets take a look at the entire passage Matt 19

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

The young man was trying to enter heaven by his own efforts of kindness, charity and love.

Rich does not only pertain to worldly possessions - in this case it did. It can also refer to a rich and full life. Friends, family, successful career. This is a person who built his treasures on earth - not in heaven. A person who leads someone to Christ is far richer then the man who only has material wealth.

ServantofTruth
Jul 7th 2008, 07:45 PM
I'm still in agreement with the original poster. My wife a non christian understands this story too.

Yes the person who has Christ is richest. However this story and others refer to 'riches' in the satan's world sense. We are given resources by our Lord and will answer to Him on how we used them. The original poster is correct on this and it is sad that a barrier is being put up by my brothers/ sisters to him finding faith.

Perrto - may God continue to bless your understand of his Word, the bible. Love Servant of Truth.

ImmenseDisciple
Jul 7th 2008, 10:32 PM
I have to say that I am a little disappointed by the replies my post got. Most of you try to justify having wealth and using it for your own pleasure even though you fully well know that it could save hundreds of human lives. Then you go out and condemn homosexual and other that you consider to be sinners. It seems to be a bit hypocritical.

Lets suppose that what the bible says is true and Jesus sacrificed everything for us, how do you think he would feel seeing the people he gave everything for enjoying wealth while others suffered in poverty? Every person on these forums has money that they don't need for their survival and isn't giving it to those that really need it. Like i previously stated I don't think you would get off the hook by saying that you are not "attached" to your wealth and it doesn't "push" you away from God since you know that the money you have could do great things for those in need. In other words shouldn't you all be going to hell? Everyone should be going to hell. We are, every one of us here, sinners. I'm sure you recognise as much and it just hasn't come across in the way you've phrased that :)

Anyway - I consider money worthless. If I felt for a second that the Lord was telling me to give away all my wealth, and all my wordly possessions - I would, in an instant. As it is, I give a nice chunk away, but nowhere near all of it - less than half, certainly.

I have, in the past, condemned myself for spending money. For example, tonight I went out with friends, and ended up spending about 10. Not a vast amount of money by my standards, but enough to make a significant difference to someone who earns less than 5% of that a day (the international poverty line). Whether food or the message of the gospel, it could certainly do a world of good. As it is, it was simply incidental to my having a good time. Exclusively for my entertainment. Now, of course, I could be appaled at myself for having wasted this money, just as I could be appaled at the collectively vast amounts which I spend which is not in any sense "essential". Why don't I? Because I don't feel that Christ has called me to a life of monasticism, or puritan values. I'm up at 5.30 5 days a week to earn my wage, and, in His grace, He hasn't called me to give it all away. But as I say - if He did, I would, without thinking about it, in an instant.

There are undeniably some people who seem to be spending massively excessive amounts of money and calling themself Christian - but it is not for me to judge. As it is, I know that I'm on sure ground, and if my Lord tells me to act, I'm not going to think twice or make any excuses - and for me, that's what counts.

ServantofTruth
Jul 8th 2008, 09:03 PM
I'm not going to add anything to the discussion tonight.

Lord i lift all my friends old and new, christians and seekers, to you today. Please protect them this night and let your Will be revealed in each of their lives. I love you guys. God bless, Servant of Truth. :hug:

ImmenseDisciple
Jul 9th 2008, 05:10 AM
Something which also sprang to mind was the followers of Christ who we read still owned land & the like... Of course, most gave away everything when they came to Him, but it's also the case that there were those who still owned property & such. It's true, though, that today pretty much no one gives away all they have...

That said - clearly, there is nothing inherently wrong with possessions.

Pertto
Jul 9th 2008, 01:12 PM
Something which also sprang to mind was the followers of Christ who we read still owned land & the like... Of course, most gave away everything when they came to Him, but it's also the case that there were those who still owned property & such. It's true, though, that today pretty much no one gives away all they have...

That said - clearly, there is nothing inherently wrong with possessions.

Why isn't there anything wrong with possession? People around you are starving, dying and suffering and you don't think there is anything inherently wrong about you living it big at the same time?

Pertto
Jul 9th 2008, 01:14 PM
Everyone should be going to hell. We are, every one of us here, sinners. I'm sure you recognise as much and it just hasn't come across in the way you've phrased that :)

Anyway - I consider money worthless. If I felt for a second that the Lord was telling me to give away all my wealth, and all my wordly possessions - I would, in an instant. As it is, I give a nice chunk away, but nowhere near all of it - less than half, certainly.

I have, in the past, condemned myself for spending money. For example, tonight I went out with friends, and ended up spending about 10. Not a vast amount of money by my standards, but enough to make a significant difference to someone who earns less than 5% of that a day (the international poverty line). Whether food or the message of the gospel, it could certainly do a world of good. As it is, it was simply incidental to my having a good time. Exclusively for my entertainment. Now, of course, I could be appaled at myself for having wasted this money, just as I could be appaled at the collectively vast amounts which I spend which is not in any sense "essential". Why don't I? Because I don't feel that Christ has called me to a life of monasticism, or puritan values. I'm up at 5.30 5 days a week to earn my wage, and, in His grace, He hasn't called me to give it all away. But as I say - if He did, I would, without thinking about it, in an instant.

There are undeniably some people who seem to be spending massively excessive amounts of money and calling themself Christian - but it is not for me to judge. As it is, I know that I'm on sure ground, and if my Lord tells me to act, I'm not going to think twice or make any excuses - and for me, that's what counts.

(I posted this yesterday, but it got deleted because of bad language, so i decided to post it again with out the bad language)

In your case i see two options.

A. You have convinced yourself that god doesn't want you to give your money to those that need it because you want to, subconsciously or not, to use the money for your self

B. God for some reason sees fit for some people to suffer in horrible agony and a horrible death and for others to enjoy wealth and life. In other words god is unjust and unworthy of any praise and perhaps a little psychopathic. Why bother worshipping him?

Steve M
Jul 9th 2008, 02:14 PM
A long time ago I heard a story from the bible about the rich man and his poor chances to get to heaven. I dont agree with most things the christians believe in, but I agree with the message of this story, even though i dont personally live by it. Most people that live in the western civilization dont live by the message of this story, most religious people dont live by it and all the people on these forums dont live by it.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Doesent this sentence clearly state that every person that is rich wont get to heaven? By rich I dont mean what the western civilization considers as rich, but what is rich when taking into consideration the whole world. Since 2/3 of the world lives in poverty every person on this forum can be considered wealthy and thus according to the bible is going to hell.

As i understand it many christians who are wealthy think that they can escape hell by thinking that as long as people are not too "attached" to wealth they have nothing to worry about. This is false naturally because the people that say this are extremely attached to their wealth since like I stated a lot of people are living in poverty and are in direct need of money and instead of giving money to those that really need it these christians spend it on things that they dont really need.

What do you think of this?
You redacted the most important verses out of the discussion. Those that immediately follow.

If you'll consider them, I think the answer to your question will come to you.

Pertto
Jul 9th 2008, 03:28 PM
You redacted the most important verses out of the discussion. Those that immediately follow.

If you'll consider them, I think the answer to your question will come to you.

Tell you the truth i don't know the other verses and i dont own a bible, but the truth is the other verses don't really matter. The way i see it the greatest tragedy of our time is the fact that there are so many people in the world that are suffering because they don't have the necessary funds and on the other hand we have people that are living far beyond the point of what they truly need. This brings us to the realization of how ridiculous Christianity along with other religions truly is. People on these forums repeat things such as masturbation, porn, homosexuality, atheism, agnostism etc. as things of great importance when in fact if you compare these things to the inequalities of the world we current live in, they are insignificant. Is somebody supposed to believe that a homosexual will go to hell only because of his homosexuality but a person on these forums will get a pass for his disregard of the suffering of other human beings? When looking at the big picture, every person should know how disproportioned this would be. That is the biggest problem the bible has, many of its teaching and core rules are meaningless when looking at the big picture and in many ways the bible disregards the big issues.

ServantofTruth
Jul 9th 2008, 06:54 PM
I don't know if this breaks the rules of the forum, but would you be suggesting Matthew chapter 19: verse27? Peter tells Jesus he's left EVERYTHING for Jesus. Then Jesus replies saying they'll have 12 thrones, and 100 times as much of things like brothers/ sisters, mothers/ fathers, children and land. Seems to agree with Matthew 6:25-34 to me. Which it would as God never changes.

Now you may say i meant the words in the middle.

How can anyone ever be saved?
People can't do this, only God, Jesus replies. (my paraphrasing)

Exactly we are saved by GRACE, not by our ACTIONS. To give up all your money WON'T save you, belief in our Lord Jesus Christ does.

BUT this is to miss the point. Faith leads to WORKS. The works don't save. But faith without WORKS is not faith! (letter of Peter?)

Following Jesus Christ, would lead to us following the example he gave, also his Words, and the example of the men who knew him best and he trusted with teaching others. How did they live? How did the earliest believers live? They brought their possessions to the disciples or the money from selling them and it was used to feed the poor.

It's a water tight arguement. But as i say christian organisations/ churches will not preach it, on the whole a few true believers will. They think they need money and resources, and trust their cleverness over God's willingness to give us what we need. If you think i'm a fool to believe God would provide to churches and organisations if they taught this - you should question how much you trust God and his Word.

Servant of Truth.

Steve M
Jul 9th 2008, 07:41 PM
Tell you the truth i don't know the other verses and i dont own a bible, but the truth is the other verses don't really matter. The way i see it the greatest tragedy of our time is the fact that there are so many people in the world that are suffering because they don't have the necessary funds and on the other hand we have people that are living far beyond the point of what they truly need. This brings us to the realization of how ridiculous Christianity along with other religions truly is. People on these forums repeat things such as masturbation, porn, homosexuality, atheism, agnostism etc. as things of great importance when in fact if you compare these things to the inequalities of the world we current live in, they are insignificant. Is somebody supposed to believe that a homosexual will go to hell only because of his homosexuality but a person on these forums will get a pass for his disregard of the suffering of other human beings? When looking at the big picture, every person should know how disproportioned this would be. That is the biggest problem the bible has, many of its teaching and core rules are meaningless when looking at the big picture and in many ways the bible disregards the big issues.
"And then the disciples said, if this is the case, then who can be saved?"

"And Jesus replied, with man this is impossible. But with God all things are possible."

Every single man that ever lived is doomed to hellfire. That's waht they deserve. There's no exception for the poor, no way out of it. I agree that the inequities in life are a great sin, and that more should be done to correct it. Do you know what the greatest charitable institution of the last twenty centuries has been? What is still the greatest and easiest way to give?

You ignore the most pressing part of the gospel, and ignore those who have obeyed the command of Jesus and given all.

Pertto
Jul 9th 2008, 08:26 PM
"And then the disciples said, if this is the case, then who can be saved?"

"And Jesus replied, with man this is impossible. But with God all things are possible."

Every single man that ever lived is doomed to hellfire. That's waht they deserve. There's no exception for the poor, no way out of it. I agree that the inequities in life are a great sin, and that more should be done to correct it. Do you know what the greatest charitable institution of the last twenty centuries has been? What is still the greatest and easiest way to give?

You ignore the most pressing part of the gospel, and ignore those who have obeyed the command of Jesus and given all.

So you buy your way into heaven by being a member of the most charitable organization? If you agree that the inequities are a sin then isn't it your duty to try correct them? You know just as well as I do that every penny you give away makes a difference, it can even save somebodies life, yet you don't do it. In other words you know that you are committing a sin and yet you continue to do it the same way a religious homosexual does, the only difference is that your sin is about a 1000 times worse. If you think you can still get to heaven, that means you believe that everybody is free to sin all they want without any repercussions.

Steve M
Jul 9th 2008, 08:32 PM
So you buy your way into heaven by being a member of the most charitable organization? If you agree that the inequities are a sin then isn't it your duty to try correct them? You know just as well as I do that every penny you give away makes a difference, it can even save somebodies life, yet you don't do it. In other words you know that you are committing a sin and yet you continue to do it the same way a religious homosexual does, the only difference is that your sin is about a 1000 times worse. If you think you can still get to heaven, that means you believe that everybody is free to sin all they want without any repercussions.
Buying my way into heaven? By trying to do just what you suggest I do, namely, try to help people?

I'm confused.

Is your problem that I'm too charitable or not charitable enough?

I didn't suggest that merely belonging to the organization held any weight. I suggested that Jesus' followers are, in fact, trying to do just what He said and solve those problems in the world.

Sold Out
Jul 9th 2008, 08:42 PM
Job summed it up best in Job 1:21:

"And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD."

ServantofTruth
Jul 9th 2008, 09:48 PM
There is nothing wrong with being extremely rich. Someone has to hold, be the guardian of the world's resources.

The POINT is you only use the bare minimum on YOU, based yes yawn on Matthew 6:25-34. EVERYTHING else you direct away from you to help the needy and to spread the Gospel worldwide.

The REASON being rich is a problem, is the richer you get, the more MOST people will spend on themselves. It may still only be a fraction of the total, but a big sum diverted from our Lord's work.

Yes it is the LOVE of money, not having the money that is the sin. It is the keeping it. Using it on ME, rather than on the needy.

So we have the widows mite, repeated in every church i've ever know in my 'real' life. The rich in the congregation give large sums, pay for that window, those chairs, that rail - after they've bought the big house, the expensive car, the weeks of holidays. Every luxoury they desire - then out of their 'excess' they give to God and the church and charities.

They say they do it in private. So how does everyone know how much they gave to what and who paid for what in the church? Everyones talking about it for years!

Then you have the genuine bible following christian who you REALLY NEVER know how much they give. But i can think of some people who live very basic lives and i could imagine them being like that widow and giving out of the little they have. I'll never know, and that's how it should be, between them and God.

Jesus gives us these examples why? Because he loves us. Because he wants us looking to the kingdom not to luxoury goods, big houses and cars and fantastic holidays.

ALL resources are God given. Use them wisely. Satan is looking to tempt you to think of YOU rather than those in real need. He's achieved it with me many times. Love Servant of Truth. :pray:

ImmenseDisciple
Jul 9th 2008, 10:22 PM
I can see the argument you're making, Pertto, but to hope to live in our society without spending anything on ourselves unnecessarily is drastically unrealistic. Even if I were to shun the many things I enjoy which cost money, like coffee, the cinema, books, and even just interesting food which far exceeds the most basic, cheapest essential nutrition I could find - there would still be the matter of clothes (should I always buy clothes based exclusively on value for money?), transport (should cost be my only consideration or would, for example, 5 hours decreased journey time for the sake of an extra dollar be acceptable?), housing (am I allowed to live in my own home, or must I live in a commune on the basis that it is a cheaper way to live?), family (am I allowed to raise a family, knowing the drain on resources they would be? Does the potential giving of my children when they eventually earn money come into account?) and a wealth of other issues to consider.

Once we have accepted that it's a ridiculously huge task to live this potentially perfectly sacrificial life, we must at the same time accept that we each make concessions. We decide for ourselves how sacrificial we will be, and what comforts we will allow ourselves. If the person in question is a Christian, this "line in the sand" should be based exclusively on how they feel God is calling them to live their life, not by the mandate of any other person.

I consider money of no importance. I always try and appreciate the relative luxuries and conveniences which it's easy to take for granted when we have money. I recognise that they are nothing in comparison to what I have through Christ - and if He asked me to give everything away, I would, in an instant, as I said before. He doesn't expect us all to endlessly strive to live the perfectly sacrifical existence which would deny oneself absolutely everything in order to give away as much as possible. But if He expected it of me, I would give it my all to live that way, and what's more - through His help, I might even be able to acheive something.

I take it for granted that there's dozens of other issues you have where Christians seem to be saying one thing and doing another. Unfortunately, that's because we're far from perfect - but if there's anything else seemingly hypocritical which you feel the need to raise, please go ahead. Aside from that, though - I'd recommend reading the bible (www.biblegateway.com (http://www.biblegateway.com)) and posting anything you have trouble understanding. The answers you get will be much more satisfying than "We're not perfect." :)

chal
Jul 9th 2008, 10:28 PM
I have to say that I am a little disappointed by the replies my post got. Most of you try to justify having wealth and using it for your own pleasure even though you fully well know that it could save hundreds of human lives. Then you go out and condemn homosexual and other that you consider to be sinners. It seems to be a bit hypocritical.

Lets suppose that what the bible says is true and Jesus sacrificed everything for us, how do you think he would feel seeing the people he gave everything for enjoying wealth while others suffered in poverty? Every person on these forums has money that they don't need for their survival and isn't giving it to those that really need it. Like i previously stated I don't think you would get off the hook by saying that you are not "attached" to your wealth and it doesn't "push" you away from God since you know that the money you have could do great things for those in need. In other words shouldn't you all be going to hell?

We are not saved from hell by our own works. You have slandered at least one person who posted on this very thread, who has personally helped my family out financially.

IOW, you don't know what you're talking about, but you're talking a lot anyway. You're pointing a finger, but three more are pointing back at you (look at the inside of your hand as you point).

Are you looking for answers here to learn about Christianity or just trolling?

tango
Jul 9th 2008, 11:14 PM
So you buy your way into heaven by being a member of the most charitable organization? If you agree that the inequities are a sin then isn't it your duty to try correct them? You know just as well as I do that every penny you give away makes a difference, it can even save somebodies life, yet you don't do it. In other words you know that you are committing a sin and yet you continue to do it the same way a religious homosexual does, the only difference is that your sin is about a 1000 times worse. If you think you can still get to heaven, that means you believe that everybody is free to sin all they want without any repercussions.

Pertto, are you interested in our responses or are you just trying to twist everything we say to suit your own ends?

If you are genuinely seeking answers you are welcome here. If not I'm going to close the thread. At present I'm suspecting the latter.

chal
Jul 10th 2008, 06:24 AM
Silencio Cricketius.

Pertto
Jul 10th 2008, 02:13 PM
I can see the argument you're making, Pertto, but to hope to live in our society without spending anything on ourselves unnecessarily is drastically unrealistic. Even if I were to shun the many things I enjoy which cost money, like coffee, the cinema, books, and even just interesting food which far exceeds the most basic, cheapest essential nutrition I could find - there would still be the matter of clothes (should I always buy clothes based exclusively on value for money?), transport (should cost be my only consideration or would, for example, 5 hours decreased journey time for the sake of an extra dollar be acceptable?), housing (am I allowed to live in my own home, or must I live in a commune on the basis that it is a cheaper way to live?), family (am I allowed to raise a family, knowing the drain on resources they would be? Does the potential giving of my children when they eventually earn money come into account?) and a wealth of other issues to consider.

Once we have accepted that it's a ridiculously huge task to live this potentially perfectly sacrificial life, we must at the same time accept that we each make concessions. We decide for ourselves how sacrificial we will be, and what comforts we will allow ourselves. If the person in question is a Christian, this "line in the sand" should be based exclusively on how they feel God is calling them to live their life, not by the mandate of any other person.

I consider money of no importance. I always try and appreciate the relative luxuries and conveniences which it's easy to take for granted when we have money. I recognise that they are nothing in comparison to what I have through Christ - and if He asked me to give everything away, I would, in an instant, as I said before. He doesn't expect us all to endlessly strive to live the perfectly sacrifical existence which would deny oneself absolutely everything in order to give away as much as possible. But if He expected it of me, I would give it my all to live that way, and what's more - through His help, I might even be able to acheive something.

I take it for granted that there's dozens of other issues you have where Christians seem to be saying one thing and doing another. Unfortunately, that's because we're far from perfect - but if there's anything else seemingly hypocritical which you feel the need to raise, please go ahead. Aside from that, though - I'd recommend reading the bible (www.biblegateway.com (http://www.biblegateway.com)) and posting anything you have trouble understanding. The answers you get will be much more satisfying than "We're not perfect." :)

No offense but I think you are making excuses. There are a lot of people in our society that get buy by just making the minimium amount of money for survival, and they manage to live their live to an end. Is it a nice life? Of course not, but as a true believer should that matter to you? You are going into heaven, so all the luxuries of this life should be meaningles to you, regardless of how others act or how our societies depend on people spending money. After reaching this point you have to ask yourself what kind of god would let others to enjoy wealth and luxuries while letting other suffer. He doesn't personally get involved and according to you he doesn't even ask his followers to correct this injustice. The conclusion has to be that he is not a very nice god.

On the other hand if you think you will get to heaven even though you knowingly commit a great sin by disregarding other peoples suffering while personally indulging in wealth how can for example atheist, homosexuals and other groups not get to heaven? Can we all do anything we want and still get to heaven?

Steve M
Jul 10th 2008, 02:36 PM
He doesn't personally get involved and according to you he doesn't even ask his followers to correct this injustice.

Didn't you just post a scripture saying that He does ask His followers to get involved?

tango
Jul 10th 2008, 02:49 PM
On the other hand if you think you will get to heaven even though you knowingly commit a great sin by disregarding other peoples suffering while personally indulging in wealth how can for example atheist, homosexuals and other groups not get to heaven? Can we all do anything we want and still get to heaven?

Jesus himself said that we would know people by their fruit (Luk 6:43-44). If we have accepted God's Spirit into our lives we begin to show forth the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23). If we see a person who claimed to have accepted Jesus but still lived as if they had not we might ask questions. Since you keep mentioning atheists and homosexuals, this could apply to someone in an active homosexual relationship. It could also apply to someone living high on the hog, oblivious and uncaring to people suffering around them. That said I would not judge someone over whether I considered them to have given away enough of whatever wealth they had.

Some people who appear very wealthy actually have very little in the way of financial resources, and others who appear very frugal have significant accumulated wealth.

If someone is giving discreetly, as instructed by Jesus (Matt 6:3-4) we wouldn't know how much they were giving, so who are we to tell them they aren't giving enough?

ImmenseDisciple
Jul 10th 2008, 03:11 PM
No offense but I think you are making excuses.I don't feel the need to make excuses, I'm just explaining that we must each decide how much of our money we are comfortable spending on ourselves, in light of the knowledge that people are dying for the sake of a few pence.

Not only will I not pretend that I'm spending as little as is physically possible on myself, but I don't feel that I have to. We're all sat at PCs which cost at least a year's salary for someone living on the poverty line - so clearly none of us here can pretend we are seriously aiming for the perfect standard.

I recognise that I could do more. I recognise that however much I do, I could always do more. I'm perfectly comfortable with how I live my life, and, as I've said, I would change it in an instant if God wanted me to - and He would make it clear to me if this was the case.

Anyway, this is futile. We're both wasting our time. I'm done.

Steve M
Jul 11th 2008, 01:21 PM
The most disturbing parts of this thread to me are the assumptions made.

1) Rich people go to hell.

No, not true. Not true at all. EVERYBODY goes to hell without Jesus; that's the clear teaching of the New Testament.

2) If God didn't do anything or didn't tell Christians to do anything, He's unjust.

God DID do something, and He DOES tell Christians to do something. A reading of the Old and New Testament will show abundant examples of God telling His people to care for those without money. James said that true and undefiled religion was found in caring for widows and orphans, those groups without money or the means to support themselves.

3) Christians in America are rich, and are therefore not obeying.

Christians in America give more than anybody else on the planet.

...

So here's my conclusion.

1) Money can separate us from God; but sin separates us first, and we're all separate from God without Christ.

2) God commands His followers to care for those with less.

3) God's followers are obeying that command, all over the world.

Which part of that, Pertto, do you dispute?

cdo
Jul 11th 2008, 04:17 PM
A long time ago I heard a story from the bible about the rich man and his poor chances to get to heaven. I dont agree with most things the christians believe in, but I agree with the message of this story, even though i dont personally live by it. Most people that live in the western civilization dont live by the message of this story, most religious people dont live by it and all the people on these forums dont live by it.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Doesent this sentence clearly state that every person that is rich wont get to heaven? By rich I dont mean what the western civilization considers as rich, but what is rich when taking into consideration the whole world. Since 2/3 of the world lives in poverty every person on this forum can be considered wealthy and thus according to the bible is going to hell.

As i understand it many christians who are wealthy think that they can escape hell by thinking that as long as people are not too "attached" to wealth they have nothing to worry about. This is false naturally because the people that say this are extremely attached to their wealth since like I stated a lot of people are living in poverty and are in direct need of money and instead of giving money to those that really need it these christians spend it on things that they dont really need.

What do you think of this?

Hi,Welcome:ppglad to have you here!
Speaking of riches:your right ,riches wont get you to heaven.Having faith in our God will! Money is the root of all evil! BUT,only when we put money before our God.When thats done; what ever we put before God;means we are putting our trust in the things of this world and not God!!!
There is no sin in having money ,that will not keep you out of heaven.Those who are blessed with extra money helps those in need .
As for as how Christians use their monies is between them and our Lord,we are not to judge.Jesus said:we will always have the poor with us.We the Church as God's Children are to help those in need (whether food,clothing,spiritual guidance etc.)The eye of the needle:God's word says "there is nothing impossible for God!!!We as Christians use our monies for God's Glory!!!
Be Blessed,
:)cdo:)

Pertto
Jul 11th 2008, 04:35 PM
The point of my post was that if we can knowingly commit a cardinal sin and continue to commit it even though we know it is wrong then how can things such as homosexuality, masturbating, watching porn, doing abortion etc. keep you out of heaven? In other words why on earth is everybody on these forums rambling about abortions, gays, atheist etc. when in fact you can sin knowingly all you want as long as you believe in god.

chal
Jul 11th 2008, 07:21 PM
Tell you the truth i don't know the other verses and i dont own a bible, but the truth is the other verses don't really matter.

chal> earlier you said;


"it got deleted because of bad language, so i decided to post it again."So, by your own admission, even though you had been corrected once on the matter, you decided to post it again.

and in another earlier post you said;
"I agree with the message of this story," in reference to a story from the Bible. It appears you are a believer after all.

and another;
"what the bible says is true and Jesus sacrificed everything for us."So, it's confirmed. You are a believer! Wonders never cease. And to think it happened right here on this thread. You sure have come a long way since your first post.

See how easy it is to twist something when it's presented out of context?

Of course the other verses matter. You can't yank a verse out of context and expect anyone to take what your opinion is on the matter seriously.

cdo
Jul 14th 2008, 02:29 PM
I have to say that I am a little disappointed by the replies my post got. Most of you try to justify having wealth and using it for your own pleasure even though you fully well know that it could save hundreds of human lives. Then you go out and condemn homosexual and other that you consider to be sinners. It seems to be a bit hypocritical.

Lets suppose that what the bible says is true and Jesus sacrificed everything for us, how do you think he would feel seeing the people he gave everything for enjoying wealth while others suffered in poverty? Every person on these forums has money that they don't need for their survival and isn't giving it to those that really need it. Like i previously stated I don't think you would get off the hook by saying that you are not "attached" to your wealth and it doesn't "push" you away from God since you know that the money you have could do great things for those in need. In other words shouldn't you all be going to hell?

Hi Pertto,
Just a comment...maybe a question or 2 !
Your a little disappointed by (other word) the truth! Personally speaking
I want apologize for God's blessing on me.God doesn't just bless with money,material things.He blesses me daily just by waking me up also you!
As we all know how the needy needs help;I give to those in need maybe
not the ways you think of. Needy doesn't just mean money; there's alot of other ways to help.As a Christian I fully well know how the world is.
post scrip---I will say this: I do give in money,food,clothing and prayer to those in need.How about you???Do you Help????
Yes,Jesus Gave His Life for all of us.The sins of the world which is the Greatest Gift of all!!! Salvation!!! I personally have no attachment to money(wealth)or material things.But you'll see the way you want to.
NO I'm not on my way to hell....But to be with my LORD!!!

I pray that what you are searching for...Jesus Is There!!!
Be Blessed in your seeking,
:pray:cdo

Steve M
Jul 14th 2008, 05:21 PM
The point of my post was that if we can knowingly commit a cardinal sin and continue to commit it even though we know it is wrong then how can things such as homosexuality, masturbating, watching porn, doing abortion etc. keep you out of heaven? In other words why on earth is everybody on these forums rambling about abortions, gays, atheist etc. when in fact you can sin knowingly all you want as long as you believe in god.
A) there are those who say you can sin as much as you want, knowingly, if you believe in God. If you want to debate it, you'll have to take it up with them.

B) you continue to state that we're all sinning by not giving maximumally to help the poor and downtrodden. Upon what proof?

http://www.nptrust.org/philanthropy/philanthropy_stats.asp

There's some statistics. (for 2006, but I couldn't find any newer) I think statistics uniformly say that what you claim ISN'T true.

cdo
Jul 14th 2008, 08:10 PM
The point of my post was that if we can knowingly commit a cardinal sin and continue to commit it even though we know it is wrong then how can things such as homosexuality, masturbating, watching porn, doing abortion etc. keep you out of heaven? In other words why on earth is everybody on these forums rambling about abortions, gays, atheist etc. when in fact you can sin knowingly all you want as long as you believe in god.

I don't know where exactly you get your info;about sinning?I cannot speak but for myself.When you have a relationship with our Lord,you no longer have a desire to sin,You have the mind of Christ.I'm not saying I'm perfect;I have sin in my life and when I do sin;I have Jesus as my advocate!That does not give me the right to sin knowingly,just because I'm saved by the Blood of Jesus that was shed for me.Those addictions/etc. are satan's evil spirits to control those that do them.
I pray your understanding be open for you:pray:
cdo

Pertto
Jul 14th 2008, 08:54 PM
I don't know where exactly you get your info;about sinning?I cannot speak but for myself.When you have a relationship with our Lord,you no longer have a desire to sin,You have the mind of Christ.I'm not saying I'm perfect;I have sin in my life and when I do sin;I have Jesus as my advocate!That does not give me the right to sin knowingly,just because I'm saved by the Blood of Jesus that was shed for me.Those addictions/etc. are satan's evil spirits to control those that do them.
I pray your understanding be open for you:pray:
cdo

I dont think you quite understood my point. My first point was to ask if having wealth while other suffer in poverty was a sin. We all know that there are a lot of people in this world whose life would be saved if we donated our wordly possesions for helping them and only kept what is needed to survive for our selves. So in other words every person in this person is knowlingly letting somebody else die. We dont know who they are but we all know that we have the money to save their lives, yet nobody does that. In my mind that is a hundred times worse than abortion, porn etc. So how can sins such as i listed matter compare to this?

tango
Jul 14th 2008, 09:10 PM
Pertto, not wishing to be too blunt with you here, but how do you know how much we give to charity? You're being very quick to point fingers at us for "sinning" by not giving more, but you don't know any of our situations.

Should we assume that you live in a tent on borrowed land and own nothing, having sold it all to give to the poor? Or are you more interested in pointing fingers to affirm a preconceived idea, picking specks from our eyes?

Are you actually here to learn more about Christianity? If you want to discuss how bad Christians are and how we don't live up to your ideals you'll probably find this board disappoints you.

Incidentally, on your comment about being able to sin all we want, Jeremiah had a few choice words to say on the subject:

Jer 7:9 Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, burn incense to Baal, and walk after other gods whom you do not know,
Jer 7:10 and then come and stand before Me in this house which is called by My name, and say, 'We are delivered to do all these abominations'?

Pertto
Jul 14th 2008, 10:16 PM
Pertto, not wishing to be too blunt with you here, but how do you know how much we give to charity? You're being very quick to point fingers at us for "sinning" by not giving more, but you don't know any of our situations.

Should we assume that you live in a tent on borrowed land and own nothing, having sold it all to give to the poor? Or are you more interested in pointing fingers to affirm a preconceived idea, picking specks from our eyes?

Are you actually here to learn more about Christianity? If you want to discuss how bad Christians are and how we don't live up to your ideals you'll probably find this board disappoints you.

Incidentally, on your comment about being able to sin all we want, Jeremiah had a few choice words to say on the subject:

Jer 7:9 Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, burn incense to Baal, and walk after other gods whom you do not know,
Jer 7:10 and then come and stand before Me in this house which is called by My name, and say, 'We are delivered to do all these abominations'?

You just don't get my point do you? Let me try one more time. The point i was trying to make was is it OK to have wealth while other suffer in poverty. If it is a sin then its not a question about how much you give to charity now is it? If it is a sin you have to give everything and only keep the things you need for survival. In this situation giving a part of your money to charity would be the same as a gay person doing certain sexual actions but refusing others.

I personally dont give anything to charity for the same reason you stop giving at certain point, because A. I don't care enough and B. I like money and the things i can get with it. We have all seen from the news or from the internet what kind atrotices are happening all over world and instead of helping the people in need with all we got we use our spare money for our own amusement. I personally don't believe in such a thing as a sin, but I do know right from wrong and I can spot injustice, but i simply choose the ignore it. You on the other do believe in sin, so the question is do you believe that living with wealth while other suffer is a sin or not?

tango
Jul 14th 2008, 10:23 PM
I already answered your question with comments about relative wealth. I do not believe that owning more material wealth than another person is sinful. I do believe we should help those less fortunate than ourselves, and I do give money to charities as a way of achieving this (if I were wealthy enough to collect exotic Italian supercars I would also consider myself wealthy enough to give very substantial sums to charity)

From your second paragraph it sounds like you are saying you can see injustice but don't care enough to do anything about it, yet feel quite happy criticising those of us who see injustice and do something about it, because you think we should be doing more about it.

markinro
Jul 14th 2008, 11:27 PM
You just don't get my point do you? Let me try one more time. The point i was trying to make was is it OK to have wealth while other suffer in poverty. If it is a sin then its not a question about how much you give to charity now is it? If it is a sin you have to give everything and only keep the things you need for survival. In this situation giving a part of your money to charity would be the same as a gay person doing certain sexual actions but refusing others.

I personally dont give anything to charity for the same reason you stop giving at certain point, because A. I don't care enough and B. I like money and the things i can get with it. We have all seen from the news or from the internet what kind atrotices are happening all over world and instead of helping the people in need with all we got we use our spare money for our own amusement. I personally don't believe in such a thing as a sin, but I do know right from wrong and I can spot injustice, but i simply choose the ignore it. You on the other do believe in sin, so the question is do you believe that living with wealth while other suffer is a sin or not?

Matt 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

cdo
Jul 15th 2008, 02:24 AM
I dont think you quite understood my point. My first point was to ask if having wealth while other suffer in poverty was a sin. We all know that there are a lot of people in this world whose life would be saved if we donated our wordly possesions for helping them and only kept what is needed to survive for our selves. So in other words every person in this person is knowlingly letting somebody else die. We dont know who they are but we all know that we have the money to save their lives, yet nobody does that. In my mind that is a hundred times worse than abortion, porn etc. So how can sins such as i listed matter compare to this?

Hi Pertto, Excuse me Pertto but,that was not your question on your post
that I posted to.But no having wealth(money) is not a sin.
(( Lives Would Be Saved ))...MONEY will not save a person,only Jesus Christ can Give Salvation.IT'S FREE!!! NO we all don't know that worldly possessions will save a soul! AS a Christian I know worldly ((Money)) will not save a person.Then your saying the ones that don't give to help support the poor are ...murderers!!
You shouldn't judge people according to their blessings.You can't read the
minds of people so therefore you have no idea how Christians help the poor.Besides a Sin is a SIN, No matter how you put it.Example:stealing a bar of candy is the same as stealing a car!..

Be Blessed in your journey,
cdo:)

cdo
Jul 15th 2008, 02:32 AM
I dont think you quite understood my point. My first point was to ask if having wealth while other suffer in poverty was a sin. We all know that there are a lot of people in this world whose life would be saved if we donated our wordly possesions for helping them and only kept what is needed to survive for our selves. So in other words every person in this person is knowlingly letting somebody else die. We dont know who they are but we all know that we have the money to save their lives, yet nobody does that. In my mind that is a hundred times worse than abortion, porn etc. So how can sins such as i listed matter compare to this?


Matt 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

THATS IT....You are just a very jealous person not caring about the poor yourself, but trying to justify what a Christian does with their money to make excuses for yourself...It's not working...:eek:
Be Blessed,
cdo

Steve M
Jul 15th 2008, 01:40 PM
but we all know that we have the money to save their lives, yet nobody does that. In my mind that is a hundred times worse than abortion, porn etc. So how can sins such as i listed matter compare to this?

Well, here's the thing. Maybe some sins are worse than others. Is a murderer worse than a liar? You would say he is, but I say God's Word says the liar suffers the same punishment.

Any sin is fatal. If you want to acheive rightness you won't find it in a list of rules to follow. If you want to be reconciled to God you have to find Him on His terms, not your own.

If, on the other hand, you want to justify lesser sins in the face of larger sins, I would simply say that every murderer can pat themselves on the back and say 'well, at least I wasn't Hitler,' and every person with a little money can say 'well at least I don't have a lot of money I didn't give,' and comparing one sin to another doesn't reduce the actual impact of any sin at all.

Pertto
Jul 15th 2008, 08:25 PM
I already answered your question with comments about relative wealth. I do not believe that owning more material wealth than another person is sinful. I do believe we should help those less fortunate than ourselves, and I do give money to charities as a way of achieving this (if I were wealthy enough to collect exotic Italian supercars I would also consider myself wealthy enough to give very substantial sums to charity)

From your second paragraph it sounds like you are saying you can see injustice but don't care enough to do anything about it, yet feel quite happy criticising those of us who see injustice and do something about it, because you think we should be doing more about it.

Are you sure you get what i mean? When i talk about having more wealth than others i don't mean having a better car. I am talking about somebody being able to afford to buy a car and somebody else dying of starvation. "Help" is also a very interesting choice of words when talking about preventing somebody from starving to death or saving them from an illness which requires a pill that costs 1 dollar.

Your post in many ways shows why I don't belong into any religion and why i believe that in the near future all current religions will become obsolete. The rules and teachings of religions have very little to do with how the world is today. Like I have stated in my previous posts you people go rambling on about gays, masturbation and what not, when in truth in a hundred years from now people are going to look back and wonder how we let people all those people around the world starve to death while we ourselves buying things we don't need.

aliveinchrist
Jul 15th 2008, 08:50 PM
Are you sure you get what i mean? When i talk about having more wealth than others i don't mean having a better car. I am talking about somebody being able to afford to buy a car and somebody else dying of starvation. "Help" is also a very interesting choice of words when talking about preventing somebody from starving to death or saving them from an illness which requires a pill that costs 1 dollar.

Your post in many ways shows why I don't belong into any religion and why i believe that in the near future all current religions will become obsolete. The rules and teachings of religions have very little to do with how the world is today. Like I have stated in my previous posts you people go rambling on about gays, masturbation and what not, when in truth in a hundred years from now people are going to look back and wonder how we let people all those people around the world starve to death while we ourselves buying things we don't need.

and what do YOU do about it, Mr. Perfect? Here you are, sitting and complaining, claiming us Christians don't do anything to help others, yet in in one of your posts above, you said you don't give ANYTHING to charity!

I suggest you quit complaining about other people, and start looking at what YOU are doing. How's that for starters?

Tell me, why is it bad for a person to have more money than others, more possessions than others, when they give a lot to the poor and needy?

God never said it was a sin to have possessions and more money. It's a sin to have all that, when He calls you to give it up and you refuse.
He was very clear in saying that. How come YOU don't get it?


If a person was to give up all his money and possessions, how would he continue to help the poor and needy?

Pertto
Jul 15th 2008, 09:16 PM
and what do YOU do about it, Mr. Perfect? Here you are, sitting and complaining, claiming us Christians don't do anything to help others, yet in in one of your posts above, you said you don't give ANYTHING to charity!

I suggest you quit complaining about other people, and start looking at what YOU are doing. How's that for starters?

Tell me, why is it bad for a person to have more money than others, more possessions than others, when they give a lot to the poor and needy?

God never said it was a sin to have possessions and more money. It's a sin to have all that, when He calls you to give it up and you refuse.
He was very clear in saying that. How come YOU don't get it? Maybe i pushed a bit hard to get you


If a person was to give up all his money and possessions, how would he continue to help the poor and needy?

I don't think i really complained about Christians not giving enough money to charity. I think I pointed out the imbalance between what you consider as sin and what is really wrong in the word we live in. Maybe i pushed a bit hard and tried to get people to agree with me :D

So you think that that there is nothing wrong or injustice about some people being able to afford luxury items while a large portion of humankind is starving and suffering? You think it makes the situation OK if a person gives some part of his income to charity while still living well beyond anything that is needed? If you don't see anything wrong in this picture, i have to ask what is wrong with you? Do you need god to tell you that this might not be how things should be or are you able to form your own opinion?

To answer your third point, I don't think anybody is asking you to give up your job and go live in the woods, you can still earn, but just give everything extra away.

tango
Jul 15th 2008, 09:31 PM
Ok Pertto, let's cut to the chase here. Are you actually interested in knowing about our faith because it seems to me you're more interested in pointing fingers at us for not living up to your ideals. None of us claim to be perfect, but we're trying, and we're doing something about the injustice we see around us. By your own admission you're seeing the same injustice but choosing to do nothing about it at all.

Nitpicking over my choice of the word "help" doesn't really take your question any further. If I spend $1 to buy a pill that will save someone's life I'd say that classed as helping them, far more so than spending $10 to buy a homeless person sleeping on the streets of London or New York some food. Especially when, by your own admission, you won't even spare $1 to save someone from death.

Do you know how much stuff we buy that we don't need? Or are you simply making more assumptions?

daughter
Jul 15th 2008, 10:06 PM
I personally dont give anything to charity for the same reason you stop giving at certain point, because A. I don't care enough and B. I like money and the things i can get with it. We have all seen from the news or from the internet what kind atrotices are happening all over world and instead of helping the people in need with all we got we use our spare money for our own amusement. I personally don't believe in such a thing as a sin, but I do know right from wrong and I can spot injustice, but i simply choose the ignore it. You on the other do believe in sin, so the question is do you believe that living with wealth while other suffer is a sin or not?
Are you real? Good grief, I thought I'd heard it all, but if this is true, what a despicable person you are. I hope that one day you are brought face to face with the reality of pain and suffering in such a way that you can't ignore it, and that on that day you repent. Because if you don't, you are going to hell, where money, and the things you can buy with it, won't do you any good at all.

aliveinchrist
Jul 16th 2008, 12:08 AM
You really have no room to talk, Perrto. By you're own admission, you do nothing to help the poor or the needy, because you don't care enough and because you like what money can get you. So you really have no room to point fingers.

I vote this thread be closed.

markinro
Jul 16th 2008, 01:37 AM
I don't think i really complained about Christians not giving enough money to charity. I think I pointed out the imbalance between what you consider as sin and what is really wrong in the word we live in. Maybe i pushed a bit hard and tried to get people to agree with me :D

So you think that that there is nothing wrong or injustice about some people being able to afford luxury items while a large portion of humankind is starving and suffering? You think it makes the situation OK if a person gives some part of his income to charity while still living well beyond anything that is needed? If you don't see anything wrong in this picture, i have to ask what is wrong with you? Do you need god to tell you that this might not be how things should be or are you able to form your own opinion?

To answer your third point, I don't think anybody is asking you to give up your job and go live in the woods, you can still earn, but just give everything extra away.

Having money - irregardless of the amount is NOT sin. The scripture says - the LOVE of money is the root of ALL evil. Most christians I know are very humble when it concerns their finances.

Pertto
Jul 16th 2008, 08:13 AM
Having money - irregardless of the amount is NOT sin. The scripture says - the LOVE of money is the root of ALL evil. Most christians I know are very humble when it concerns their finances.

Seriously are you for real? You argue that these people don't love money, but they don't give it away to those that are about to die because of what? Can you come up with a reason or must you agree that their love for money is so transparent its laughable, and its sad that they don't admit it.

Whats stopping you christians anyway? I personally believe that after we die the only thing we will get is our own little worm farm, but you on the other hand believe that this life is only temporary. So what is stopping you from helping your fellow man to the fullest? No matter how much you spin and twist it all comes down to you enjoying wealth and thus keeping it for your self. In other words you all love money :eek:

aliveinchrist
Jul 16th 2008, 08:33 AM
Seriously are you for real? You argue that these people don't love money, but they don't give it away to those that are about to die because of what? Can you come up with a reason or must you agree that their love for money is so transparent its laughable, and its sad that they don't admit it.

Whats stopping you christians anyway? I personally believe that after we die the only thing we will get is our own little worm farm, but you on the other hand believe that this life is only temporary. So what is stopping you from helping your fellow man to the fullest? No matter how much you spin and twist it all comes down to you enjoying wealth and thus keeping it for your self. In other words you all love money :eek:

So do you!!!:eek:

What's stopping YOU from helping your fellow man?

tango
Jul 16th 2008, 10:05 AM
OK everybody, it looks like we're going round in circles and nobody has anything new to say, so I'm closing the thread.