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theothersock
Jun 29th 2008, 06:46 AM
"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." - Titus 3 : 9

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not far from hence." - John 18 : 36

Where in the entirety of the New Testament are we commanded to take political action? Where in the entirety of the New Testament do Christ or the Apostles take political action?

Are they not found because such contentions are indeed utterly unprofitable? We know full well how useless our attempts to remedy political affairs are, through both experience and prophecy. Through your vote will you stay the prophecies of Revelation? Will by your protests the apostasy of man be avoided?

No! These things will surely come to pass. Our efforts are better invested evangelically than politically, and do are better for our soul. Who among us strives in political affairs without speaking ill of dignitaries, which is condemned? Shall we read the paper, or shall we read the Bible instead? Shall we devote time too CNN or to scripture? Shall we write letters to our congressmen or shall we instead take the time to write letters of encouragement to our Christian brothers like the Apostles did?

We are to be separate.

The more we try to influence the affairs of the world, the more we become involved in it, and the more we become involved in it, the more influence it has upon us, and its influence brings corruption.

"They say unto him, Caeser's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caeser the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." - Matthew 22 : 21

Joey Porter
Jun 29th 2008, 07:03 AM
I have found that the closer I draw to Yahweh, the less interest I have in political affairs. Don't get me wrong, I still believe things like abortion and gay marriage are wrong. But I find it to be much more fruitful and fulfililng to seek the kingdom above, than to worry about earthly affairs. He is in control of all things, so when He wants to put an end to such atrocities, He will.

theothersock
Jun 29th 2008, 07:17 AM
I have found that the closer I draw to Yahweh, the less interest I have in political affairs. Don't get me wrong, I still believe things like abortion and gay marriage are wrong. But I find it to be much more fruitful and fulfililng to seek the kingdom above, than to worry about earthly affairs. He is in control of all things, so when He wants to put an end to such atrocities, He will.

And he will. Most definitively. At the blowing of a trumpet.

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 07:29 AM
I have found that the closer I draw to Yahweh, the less interest I have in political affairs. Don't get me wrong, I still believe things like abortion and gay marriage are wrong. But I find it to be much more fruitful and fulfililng to seek the kingdom above, than to worry about earthly affairs. He is in control of all things, so when He wants to put an end to such atrocities, He will.

I agree with this. The closer I become to the Lord God, the less active I have become in politics and the less passionate about them. No longer do politics even phase me.

Having said that, I still believe that it is reasonable and good for believers to try and protect the innocent through passing laws. I find nothing in scripture where God desired government to be left only to evil men.

The problem is that many in the religious right seem to think that government should be a means to control folks and to further the kingdom of God and that is dangerous thinking! We don't need government to endorse God, or prayer, or the bible, etc. Even in the example God gave us with Israel, God kept the kings and priest separate. Only a very few men were prophets and kings, one being David and another Solomon. Only Jesus himself will be prophet, priest and king.

So when we try to legislate Christianity, we fall into a trap that was not meant for us to be in. If we examine scriptures closely, we see a common theme when religion and politics are combined. The first such occurrence is with the tower of Babel. There, man thought to build himself a tower to heaven and it was the first place in scripture where the word "kingdom" was used. Another example is Nebechadnezzar. He built a statue that was 60 cubits high, 6 cubits wide, and commanded all to worship when 6 instruments were played. (Do those numbers ring a bell?) What's interesting about that, is when he realized that the God of the three hebrew children was the real God, he then forced his nation to worship God. In effect he said if you don't worship God, I'll kill you. He didn't change his ways at all. He just had a mental revelation of who God was. The point? He still didn't get how to govern. Later, God humbled him and he repented.

Let us not combine the priesthood and the kingdom. That doesn't mean we are not to try and protect the innocent from being killed or that we should as a society, ignore the plight of the poor. But it does mean that we don't have to push for prayer in public places, or having the bible read in court or school, etc.

Joe King
Jun 29th 2008, 07:30 AM
I have found that the closer I draw to Yahweh, the less interest I have in political affairs. Don't get me wrong, I still believe things like abortion and gay marriage are wrong. But I find it to be much more fruitful and fulfililng to seek the kingdom above, than to worry about earthly affairs. He is in control of all things, so when He wants to put an end to such atrocities, He will.

Exactly!!

I think we should be more worried about spreading the Gospel. I work at a talk radio station and I like it but I wish people would be that enthusiastic about finding the truth and the way to heaven, which is Jesus. I was so happy that I got the host to talk about the End Times one day.

On the other hand, working at the talk station really keeps me up on the news when I otherwise couldn't care less, just like you. In fact, the more I pay attention, the more I am convinced that the end times are in our lifetime, but that's for another thread.

ProDeo
Jun 29th 2008, 10:58 AM
We don't need government to endorse God, or prayer, or the bible, etc. Even in the example God gave us with Israel, God kept the kings and priest separate. Only a very few men were prophets and kings, one being David and another Solomon.

But note, not after Israel rejected God as king over Israel and wished a human king. (1 Sam 10:18-19).

Ed

chal
Jun 29th 2008, 12:12 PM
People often recite the mantra, "if you don't vote, you have no right to complain." Well, to my way of thinking, the anemic power of politics, coupled with the fact that it is more often than not, used for corrupt purposes, is a valid reason to complain. This is further strengthened, by the fact that, according to the laws that these people have voted into existence themselves, the right to freedom of speech is not limited to those who vote, as well as the fact that no significant amount of positive change ever seems to come through politics.

I submit that this chant of the politically minded is based on personal bias and is a very large non sequitur.

Brother Mark
Jun 29th 2008, 12:30 PM
But note, not after Israel rejected God as king over Israel and wished a human king. (1 Sam 10:18-19).

Ed

David and Solomon were both after Israel requested a king. Israel was ruled by judges prior to that. Priest and King were not combined at all in Israel. Saul tried to do it and it was considered a very big sin.

Frances
Jun 29th 2008, 06:40 PM
I, personally, have no interest in being involved in politics - but I'm sure the Lord has Gifted many of His people to be involved in ensuring that His Will is done in our respective Governments. For instance, if Lord Shaftsbury had not been involved in politics the 'slave trade' in this country would not have ended. If there were more real Christians in our present Government there would not have been so many unGodly laws passed. . . . so that is why I pray for Christian members of Parliament, who are filled with Holy Spirit.

Zack702
Jun 29th 2008, 07:14 PM
Rejoice in all things.
We do need to trust in God.
All political laws should be based around good.
And who taught us good?

If you sit and think about whats good and whats bad you might realise that most of the things that are good can also be bad and most of the things that are bad can also be good.

Wise politicians can see these clearly and they will avoid bad whenever possible. But at times they are forced to use bad for the greater purpose of good. Unwise politicians will not see these clearly and they will do whats good in there eyes without considering or caring about the full consequences or possibilities but rather only see the face value of things.

When I think about politics I think in this direction...
I have faith that whoever the name or whatever the party they will be found wise. Saul comes to mind. "4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?"

Think on politics but do not condemn anyone rather have faith that they might find a bright light to illuminate there way.

davidandme
Jun 29th 2008, 07:20 PM
"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." - Titus 3 : 9

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not far from hence." - John 18 : 36

Where in the entirety of the New Testament are we commanded to take political action? Where in the entirety of the New Testament do Christ or the Apostles take political action?

Are they not found because such contentions are indeed utterly unprofitable? We know full well how useless our attempts to remedy political affairs are, through both experience and prophecy. Through your vote will you stay the prophecies of Revelation? Will by your protests the apostasy of man be avoided?

No! These things will surely come to pass. Our efforts are better invested evangelically than politically, and do are better for our soul. Who among us strives in political affairs without speaking ill of dignitaries, which is condemned? Shall we read the paper, or shall we read the Bible instead? Shall we devote time too CNN or to scripture? Shall we write letters to our congressmen or shall we instead take the time to write letters of encouragement to our Christian brothers like the Apostles did?

We are to be separate.

The more we try to influence the affairs of the world, the more we become involved in it, and the more we become involved in it, the more influence it has upon us, and its influence brings corruption.

"They say unto him, Caeser's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caeser the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." - Matthew 22 : 21

Polititians are public servants. We need them in our socities. I do know that many of them abuse it. And of course that's wrong. As long as we put God first in everything. I supposed that this needed prefession is OK.

nzyr
Jun 29th 2008, 07:38 PM
I think we need more good and honest people in government. And I vote in every election. I can't see how it would be a good idea for Christians to abstain from participating in our democracy.

theothersock
Jun 30th 2008, 12:55 AM
Having said that, I still believe that it is reasonable and good for believers to try and protect the innocent through passing laws. I find nothing in scripture where God desired government to be left only to evil men.


Are we even needed in this function?

Are there laws being lobbied for now that intend to harm the innocent? I assure you murder, theft and rape, are held to be condemnable even by the secular world.

And when such a time as laws so evil as you fear come to pass, no vote of yours mine or anyone will stay the tide of Armageddon.

I feel that it is more profitable for the believer to focus on spirituality and evangelism than legislation, and a FAR more effective route to reaching the unbeliever.

Who have you ever converted to Christ through legislation? Though you may ban homosexuality or abortion, do they still not crave these things in their hearts? Are they not then just as guilty?

I say do not place the band-aid of legislation on the broken bone of a godless soul, waste not your time treating the surface of a gaping wound, but focus all of your efforts on the source of the problem.

Preach to their hearts not their senators.

Make prayer, not legislation.

Go forth and witness, not protest.

Minister to the sinners, rather than condemn.

I assure you these are the ways by which souls are won.
"Entering into the world of politics", is a misleading expression on account of two extra words, for you are really only "Entering into the world". You will find yourself disheartened and frustrated and your efforts will only frustrate the sinners creating a chasm of bitterness between them and the church.

Reach out with an open hand of ministry, not a closed fist of legislation.

fewarechosen
Jun 30th 2008, 03:19 AM
Are we even needed in this function?

Are there laws being lobbied for now that intend to harm the innocent? I assure you murder, theft and rape, are held to be condemnable even by the secular world.

And when such a time as laws so evil as you fear come to pass, no vote of yours mine or anyone will stay the tide of Armageddon.

I feel that it is more profitable for the believer to focus on spirituality and evangelism than legislation, and a FAR more effective route to reaching the unbeliever.

Who have you ever converted to Christ through legislation? Though you may ban homosexuality or abortion, do they still not crave these things in their hearts? Are they not then just as guilty?

I say do not place the band-aid of legislation on the broken bone of a godless soul, waste not your time treating the surface of a gaping wound, but focus all of your efforts on the source of the problem.

Preach to their hearts not their senators.

Make prayer, not legislation.

Go forth and witness, not protest.

Minister to the sinners, rather than condemn.

I assure you these are the ways by which souls are won.
"Entering into the world of politics", is a misleading expression on account of two extra words, for you are really only "Entering into the world". You will find yourself disheartened and frustrated and your efforts will only frustrate the sinners creating a chasm of bitterness between them and the church.

Reach out with an open hand of ministry, not a closed fist of legislation.

wise words, i agree with you.

Brother Mark
Jun 30th 2008, 03:56 AM
Are we even needed in this function?

Are there laws being lobbied for now that intend to harm the innocent? I assure you murder, theft and rape, are held to be condemnable even by the secular world.

And when such a time as laws so evil as you fear come to pass, no vote of yours mine or anyone will stay the tide of Armageddon.

I feel that it is more profitable for the believer to focus on spirituality and evangelism than legislation, and a FAR more effective route to reaching the unbeliever.

Oh, politics won't reach the believer at all. But to answer you question, yes there are laws being lobbied for and already passed that harm the innocent. Abortion is just such a law.



Who have you ever converted to Christ through legislation? Though you may ban homosexuality or abortion, do they still not crave these things in their hearts? Are they not then just as guilty?

That's not the point of legislation or law. We don't have laws on the books against murder to save but rather to prevent murder. Innocents are worthy of protecting.

Keep praying for the unborn and I will as well. But I fully intend on not only praying for them, but also doing something for them.

theothersock
Jun 30th 2008, 04:45 AM
That's not the point of legislation or law. We don't have laws on the books against murder to save but rather to prevent murder. Innocents are worthy of protecting.

As I said before, these things are viewed condemnable even in the secular world. Must we dedicate our efforts to maintain legislation that murder is bad?

How often have you seen Christians rallied together waving signs saying:

"KEEP MURDER ILLEGAL"

Rather we see them whipped into a hateful and condemning frenzy against the homosexual or the alcoholic, the film company that produced a questionable flick, or the rapper whose rhymes were railing.

Do you believe this to be an effective use of the disciples' time? We have motivated individuals, committed to Christ, andready to act in DROVES, and this is the task to which we apply them?

Does this seem profitable to you?


[QUOTE=Brother Mark;1691192]Oh, politics won't reach the believer at all. But to answer you question, yes there are laws being lobbied for and already passed that harm the innocent. Abortion is just such a law.

Keep praying for the unborn and I will as well. But I fully intend on not only praying for them, but also doing something for them.

I fear that this is no clear issue, not yet.

Do you believe as many Catholics will say, that a condom is murder?

What of Birth control pills? What of a vasectomy, or tube-tying? Are they also murder?

Do you believe as some secular will say that partial-birth is contraception?

Is either extreme a representation of the truth?

I feel strongly that there is indeed a moment in gestation where life begins, and a soul is born. However, I also believe that there is a time when there are cells and tissues growing within a woman that yet have no life in them of themselves.

I could be mistaken, and this I readily admit, however in the light of such ambiguity, how can I so readily proclaim a sister a murderer?

The most important question in regard to the entire topic of abortion is this:

When do you believe that life begins?

AND HOW DO YOU SUPPORT THAT BELIEF?

I do not mean to be antagonistic, but no insight is gained by a hollowly repeated catch-phrase such as: "life begins at conception". If this is true, and you believe it sincerely, then please, I implore you share the knowledge that supports this claim. Share scripture and wisdom that we might learn as well and do right too.

Brother Mark
Jun 30th 2008, 12:17 PM
As I said before, these things are viewed condemnable even in the secular world. Must we dedicate our efforts to maintain legislation that murder is bad?

How often have you seen Christians rallied together waving signs saying:

"KEEP MURDER ILLEGAL"

Rather we see them whipped into a hateful and condemning frenzy against the homosexual or the alcoholic, the film company that produced a questionable flick, or the rapper whose rhymes were railing.

Do you believe this to be an effective use of the disciples' time? We have motivated individuals, committed to Christ, andready to act in DROVES, and this is the task to which we apply them?

Religious phariseeism is rarely profitable whether it occurs in church or on the streets. That's not what I am discussing even for that is not what all believers are like that are in politics. The folks that do as you state don't accomplish much do they? Are all believers that vote like that? Of course not. So lets deal with the productive crowd instead of the crazy crowd. The religious right made HUGE advances in the late 70s and early 80s. As a result, Ronald Reagan was elected president and the iron curtain came crashing down. Many judges were appointed that slowed this countries fall into oblivion when as it pertains to law. The world is better off because Christians helped elect a man with principles.



I fear that this is no clear issue, not yet.

Do you believe as many Catholics will say, that a condom is murder?

What of Birth control pills? What of a vasectomy, or tube-tying? Are they also murder?

Do you believe as some secular will say that partial-birth is contraception?

Is either extreme a representation of the truth?

I feel strongly that there is indeed a moment in gestation where life begins, and a soul is born. However, I also believe that there is a time when there are cells and tissues growing within a woman that yet have no life in them of themselves.

There are several problems with that view. Here's one. The liver cells of a woman have her DNA. The fertilized egg does not. It has it's own completely different set of cells. It is not the same as a liver, or other cell of her body. It is a living organism that is separate from her body. Her body only provides environment and nutrition.


The most important question in regard to the entire topic of abortion is this:

When do you believe that life begins?

AND HOW DO YOU SUPPORT THAT BELIEF?

At conception. I find both biblical and scientific support for it. David said he had sin from conception. God told Jeremiah he knew him in the womb. John the Baptist lept with joy in his mother's womb.



I do not mean to be antagonistic, but no insight is gained by a hollowly repeated catch-phrase such as: "life begins at conception". If this is true, and you believe it sincerely, then please, I implore you share the knowledge that supports this claim. Share scripture and wisdom that we might learn as well and do right too.

I shared a little. Let's see where that leads us.

Zack702
Jun 30th 2008, 02:19 PM
Are we even needed in this function?

Are there laws being lobbied for now that intend to harm the innocent?

Though you may ban homosexuality or abortion, do they still not crave these things in their hearts? Are they not then just as guilty?

Minister to the sinners, rather than condemn.

"Entering into the world of politics", is a misleading expression on account of two extra words, for you are really only "Entering into the world".

Reach out with an open hand of ministry, not a closed fist of legislation.

Now I get where you are coming from with this but I however see things slightly different.

You would do well to have faith in our politicians. Yea there are some really bad ones and even straight up evil ones. But there are many politicians who have done well in our day and even more who laid strong foundations before us although not strong like Jesus they still are strong. (Thomas Jefferson for example)

We are very needed in this function of good laws. For one if you ever love someone so much you realize that there life is more important to you than your own then you can see why we have laws to protect.

Banning evil things is just one way to prevent them. No we might not prevent them in this generation but it is there children that matter even more than them. And if they love children they will know that.

Just as ministering to sinners is only just one way to prevent sin. You can minister to people in such a way that they don't even know its happening. And with faith your ministering is accomplished. (ironic we are using this term given it is both political and religious)

Now I know as well as we all do there are crooked politicians but I also know just as we all should that there are straight ones. Let us give praise to the good ones and praise God even more when they also seek good.

We say we are spiritual but we are not fully spiritual we are in the flesh. We do not know the depths of it nor do we understand everything as angels do. We only see what is before us and we make self-righteous decisions but every once in a while someone makes a good one. Every once in a while someone connects.

Imagine a scale of good and bad. And when a politics connects with good it is like a weight that is added to good. But when politics connects with bad it is like a weight added to bad. The balance is important and if I could just dream it up I would add all the weight to good but we all know that is not possible.

Yea politics is a dirty job but someone has to do it. Someone has to keep the scale in balance. For one, taxes are just out of control yea I understand them but they are out of control and it's getting worse.

It's almost like when the pharaoh made Israel produce bricks and took away there straw saying "ye are idle". Along comes Moses to do some politikin with the pharaoh miracle style.

ProDeo
Jun 30th 2008, 02:26 PM
David and Solomon were both after Israel requested a king. Israel was ruled by judges prior to that.

True but that wasn't my point. God was King over Israel until Israel wanted a human king (1 Sam 10:18-19). Although God gave Israel what they wanted I don't have the impression it was God's original intend as the wish to have a human king sounds as an insult to God and a complaint against Israel:

17 ∂ Then Samuel sent for the people to come together before the Lord at Mizpah;
18 And he said to the children of Israel, The Lord, the God of Israel, has said, I took Israel out of Egypt, and made you free from the hands of the Egyptians and from all the kingdoms which kept you down:
19 But today you are turned away from your God, who himself has been your saviour from all your troubles and sorrows; and you have said to him, Put a king over us. So now, take your places before the Lord by your tribes and by your thousands.

As Christ will rule as King (thus political as well) in the millennium for 1000 years (Rev 20:4) I think that God's original (and higher) plan for us is one King and no democracy.

Israel just ended that.

What are your thoughts?

Ed

dan
Jul 7th 2008, 04:17 AM
...That God would have us vote for the very best that we can achieve.
God tests man and will take into account acts and words.
We can show our solidarity with God by voting, amongst other things.

MT 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
MT 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

MK 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
MK 4:25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

godsgirl
Jul 7th 2008, 10:50 AM
We are to be good stewards of all that the Lord has blessed us with. I believe that includes our freedoms..voting is just a natural part of "occupying until He comes". While I certianly don't find my answers in politics, I do vote for those I feel most uphold Biblical values-to do any less would be sinful.
We are to be salt in this world-a preservative., and part of that is standing firm for Biblical values.

RabbiKnife
Jul 8th 2008, 05:24 PM
Part of "rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" includes the obligation to be a good citizen of the nation in which you find yourself. If you live in a society/nation that permits democratic involvement in voting, elections, holding political offices, etc., then "rendering unto Caesar" means being a responsible steward in those areas.

In the United States, "we the people" are the government, and all power is vested in the people and loaned to the government. In the United States, abstaining from one's duty as a citizen is being disobedient and a slothful servant.

chal
Jul 8th 2008, 07:26 PM
I don't buy into the deception that there are any politrickians that are not corrupt in any significant office of higher government. If they start out uncorrupted, they are rendered powerless by those in higher powers. I think that anyone who twists "giving unto Caesar," into it's our duty to vote, is very deceived by the spin doctors and are placing worldly rhetoric above scripture. There is no secular law against refraining from voting. One can refrain from voting and still render unto Caesar everything that Caesar requires, as voting is not mandatory. One can be a good steward of God's word, while not voting, by not leading other Christians into the false sense of security and false sense of serving God it provides.

RabbiKnife
Jul 8th 2008, 09:21 PM
One should read the writings of the Founding Fathers in relation to one's civic duty as a response of obedience to God.

moonglow
Jul 8th 2008, 09:27 PM
[QUOTE=theothersock;1691231]As I said before, these things are viewed condemnable even in the secular world. Must we dedicate our efforts to maintain legislation that murder is bad?

How often have you seen Christians rallied together waving signs saying:

"KEEP MURDER ILLEGAL"

Rather we see them whipped into a hateful and condemning frenzy against the homosexual or the alcoholic, the film company that produced a questionable flick, or the rapper whose rhymes were railing.

And here's the rest of the story as Paul Harvey likes to say...

What you don't see on the media...which I call the beast for obvious reasons...is the Christian run pregnancies centers that are their to HELP the scared pregnant young teen...the mother of already several children and they can't afford another...and many more in many different situations...they are there to show them the baby on a songram so they know the truth and there to offer support...whether its help with the medical expenses...talking about putting the baby up for adoption, help with baby clothes...whatever is needed. They are there to first show them this isn't just a blob of tissue...so they can make a fully informed desions ...and their to help them through their pregnancies if they do decide to carry the baby...AND lead them to many other places that can help after the baby is born. They aren't all angry mobs by any means! Many, many are there reaching out to them in love...





Do you believe this to be an effective use of the disciples' time? We have motivated individuals, committed to Christ, andready to act in DROVES, and this is the task to which we apply them?

Does this seem profitable to you?

[QUOTE=Brother Mark;1691192]

I fear that this is no clear issue, not yet.

Do you believe as many Catholics will say, that a condom is murder?

I realize you are talking to Brother Mark...but I would like to answer since I am a female. A condom cannot cause a life to cease so it cannot be murder...it only stops life from happening. I can image which verse they are using on the OT to say using a condom is wrong but in that instance God was angry at ONLY that man for spilling his seed because in THAT individual case...he was to help conceive a child...he was willfully disobeying God. That passage was never intended to be universal though.


What of Birth control pills?

Actually many birth controls cause abortions. After the seed and egg come together the cells start to multiple at once! The birth control pills cause this egg to be expelled from the body of the woman. Most women do not know this...don't you think they should have the right too?


What of a vasectomy, or tube-tying? Are they also murder?

Again preventing life from happening certainly cannot be the same as murder. Murder is killing a life already there. If you are trying to make a point...I sure don't get it...these seem like pretty obvious questions.


Do you believe as some secular will say that partial-birth is contraception?

Why would any of us think that sticking scissors in a babies head to kill him or her would be considered contraception?


Is either extreme a representation of the truth?

I feel strongly that there is indeed a moment in gestation where life begins, and a soul is born. However, I also believe that there is a time when there are cells and tissues growing within a woman that yet have no life in them of themselves.

I could be mistaken, and this I readily admit, however in the light of such ambiguity, how can I so readily proclaim a sister a murderer?

The most important question in regard to the entire topic of abortion is this:

When do you believe that life begins?

AND HOW DO YOU SUPPORT THAT BELIEF?

I do not mean to be antagonistic, but no insight is gained by a hollowly repeated catch-phrase such as: "life begins at conception". If this is true, and you believe it sincerely, then please, I implore you share the knowledge that supports this claim. Share scripture and wisdom that we might learn as well and do right too.

How could cells divide IF there was no life in them as you say? Something dead cannot do that...it wouldn't even be there if there was no life to start with.

Psalm 139
16 You saw me before I was born.
Every day of my life was recorded in your book.
Every moment was laid out
before a single day had passed.

Job 31:14-16

15 Did not He who made me in the womb make them?
Did not the same One fashion us in the womb?

Psalm 139:12-14

12 Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You,
But the night shines as the day;
The darkness and the light are both alike to You.

13 For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my motherís womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.

Please do not call any woman that has had an abortion a murder. Many have done this in ignorance...lied to by those secular groups that said the baby was just tissue. Many are just now realizing what they did and their guilt and shame is heavy enough as it is...and those that don't care and don't feel guilty...leave God to deal with them.

God bless

chal
Jul 8th 2008, 10:31 PM
One should read the writings of the Founding Fathers in relation to one's civic duty as a response of obedience to God.

I think many have forgotten the root of the word protestant. It certainly doesn't mean to kow-tow to a corrupt system. any more than "giving unto Caesar," does.

weighed
Jul 8th 2008, 11:43 PM
"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." - Titus 3 : 9

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not far from hence." - John 18 : 36

Where in the entirety of the New Testament are we commanded to take political action? Where in the entirety of the New Testament do Christ or the Apostles take political action?

Are they not found because such contentions are indeed utterly unprofitable? We know full well how useless our attempts to remedy political affairs are, through both experience and prophecy. Through your vote will you stay the prophecies of Revelation? Will by your protests the apostasy of man be avoided?

No! These things will surely come to pass. Our efforts are better invested evangelically than politically, and do are better for our soul. Who among us strives in political affairs without speaking ill of dignitaries, which is condemned? Shall we read the paper, or shall we read the Bible instead? Shall we devote time too CNN or to scripture? Shall we write letters to our congressmen or shall we instead take the time to write letters of encouragement to our Christian brothers like the Apostles did?

We are to be separate.

The more we try to influence the affairs of the world, the more we become involved in it, and the more we become involved in it, the more influence it has upon us, and its influence brings corruption.

"They say unto him, Caeser's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caeser the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." - Matthew 22 : 21

WOW, more of this please!!!!
AMEN, AND AMEN.
We need to :
Rom 12:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Sometimes, this does mean rebuking a person, Christian or non Christian, government official, or non government official, but not necessiraly on political grounds, but on spiritual grounds, as quoted from above:
"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not far from hence." - John 18 : 36
That's why Jesus said:Mt 26:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. As His kingdom does not come in the sword of the flesh, but IN THE SWORD OF THE SPIRIT!

threebigrocks
Jul 9th 2008, 11:32 PM
While I certianly don't find my answers in politics, I do vote for those I feel most uphold Biblical values-to do any less would be sinful.

Can we be, say, only 75% and be with God? Can we vote on our Godly beliefs if only 75% is of God? Is 75% good enough??

I know many men who are 100% God. And this time around I can gaurantee that I will not vote for anyone preprinted on the ballot.

Partaker of Christ
Jul 10th 2008, 09:25 PM
Politics do not save.
Politics do not change hearts.

Politics is people power.
The Gospel is God power.

We (the Church) are a Holy Nation. We are not of the world, but we are aliens and strangers.
We are a Royal Priesthood, not worldly politicians.

Get the Church out of worldly politics, and get worldly politics out of the Church.

For my mind, voting is nothing less then calling evil 'good'.
Voting for the lesser evil, is still voting for evil.


Luke 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.


1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
1Co 5:13 But those who are outside God will judge. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."

threebigrocks
Jul 11th 2008, 08:27 PM
Politics do not save.
Politics do not change hearts.

Politics is people power.
The Gospel is God power.

We (the Church) are a Holy Nation. We are not of the world, but we are aliens and strangers.
We are a Royal Priesthood, not worldly politicians.

Get the Church out of worldly politics, and get worldly politics out of the Church.

For my mind, voting is nothing less then calling evil 'good'.
Voting for the lesser evil, is still voting for evil.


Luke 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.


1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
1Co 5:13 But those who are outside God will judge. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."

Don't be so fast to toss all politics out with the bathwater! No matter what leaders do, they are there because they were set there by God. Ever since Israel called out to be just like everyone else, they begged God for a king and got it - we have been under authority of government. God pretty much told them that they wouldn't like it. I think, especially today, we can look bad and say yep! God was right!

We still gotta play by the rules, and if my teeny tiny voice doesn't vote - I haven't said a thing. I don't so much as plan to run for city council, school board or chairman of the whatever council. But, I can appeal and cast a vote. Government gave me that right.

Whatistruth
Jul 11th 2008, 10:19 PM
I think we need more good and honest people in government. And I vote in every election. I can't see how it would be a good idea for Christians to abstain from participating in our democracy.

Good and honest people in government? If you think you are going to find any "good and honest" people in government your living in a dream. They may seem "good" but i promise you there not. The best thing a christian can do is stand for what they believe in but dont push it down anyones throat.

dan
Jul 14th 2008, 11:00 PM
...If I don't vote, we'll have the side that believes in murder of the unborn ramming their laws and philosophy down our throats.

Vote Republican!

Partaker of Christ
Jul 14th 2008, 11:07 PM
Don't be so fast to toss all politics out with the bathwater! No matter what leaders do, they are there because they were set there by God. Ever since Israel called out to be just like everyone else, they begged God for a king and got it - we have been under authority of government. God pretty much told them that they wouldn't like it. I think, especially today, we can look bad and say yep! God was right!

We still gotta play by the rules, and if my teeny tiny voice doesn't vote - I haven't said a thing. I don't so much as plan to run for city council, school board or chairman of the whatever council. But, I can appeal and cast a vote. Government gave me that right.


God is in control, and God will have in position, who he will have in position.

Have you ever voted for someone who did not get elected?
Doesn't that mean that you have voted, against the hand of God?

Our work is to preach the gospel.

WELL
Jul 14th 2008, 11:49 PM
2 Tim 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

And many others say the same.
The GREATEST leader of ALL time,JESUS did not become a politican!
So why should we?
George Bush may be a Christian, but he is certianly decieved!

arliewebb
Jul 15th 2008, 04:27 AM
I have found that the closer I draw to Yahweh, the less interest I have in political affairs. Don't get me wrong, I still believe things like abortion and gay marriage are wrong. But I find it to be much more fruitful and fulfililng to seek the kingdom above, than to worry about earthly affairs. He is in control of all things, so when He wants to put an end to such atrocities, He will.
To answer my thoughts about this: We were to establish His kingdom on earth.

BCF
Jul 15th 2008, 02:18 PM
I'm not so sure that God is in control of this world as we all think he is.

I mean would God want two airplanes two fly into two buildings and kill millions of people? Would God let all those children in the world who are starving go without food? Would God let all those babies be killed for no reason? Would God let all the children who are being raped and molested by there family members and non family members be wounded for life like they are? And the list goes on and on and on.

I take you to a scripture that is very seldom thought about now a days in Matthew 4, where our Lord Jesus was tempted by devil for the third time. Here starting with verse 8 and ending in verse 11 we read these words.

8. Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9. And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11.Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

It would seem to me that if God was in control of this world as we say and think that he was, there would have been no reason for Satan to tempt our Lord Jesus (who was God) with the offer of giving him control over the whole world now would it.

Now don't get me wrong, I believe that God has the power over Satan and can control Satan and what Satan does. We have proof of that in Job. But I don't believe that God controls us, and I'm not too sure about this world. That is why I have nothing to do with voting, government, or politics, no matter how they want to dress it up.

mcgyver
Jul 15th 2008, 03:14 PM
Hmmm....

Lots of interesting thoughts here :)

My opinion is this:

Secular governments and the Church have both been established by God, and have their own spheres of operation...

The Church should not run the government, nor should the government run the Church.

That being said however, I believe that it is perfectly permissible (even our duty as being "The light of the world") to properly influence our government through the political process.

Here in the US we have a wonderful, God given opportunity not found in much of the rest of the world. That is the opportunity to be involved and influence our government at all levels: local, state, and national.

No one has to be of a "noble" lineage or of "royal blood"...anyone can be elected to office...anyone may cast their vote according to their conscience (or lack thereof, unfortunately).

Proverbs 29:2 says: "When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan."

John Jay who was the first Chief Justice of The Supreme Court, and an architect of our Constitution said: "Providence is given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for its rulers."

When one considers that 52 of our founding fathers were active members of their local congregations...and 27 held seminary degrees; I must pause and contemplate the result had they decided that a Christian should not be involved in the political process...:hmm:

BCF
Jul 15th 2008, 03:46 PM
John Jay who was the first Chief Justice of The Supreme Court, and an architect of our Constitution said: "Providence is given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for its rulers."

When one considers that 52 of our founding fathers were active members of their local congregations...and 27 held seminary degrees; I must pause and contemplate the result had they decided that a Christian should not be involved in the political process...:hmm:

Point taken.......but I wonder.....how many of those 52 active members of their local churches...(along with the 27 who had seminary degrees,) would be voting in this day and age with the world the way it is now?

Back in the day when they held the positions they did, those guys all had FAITH and knew what the WORD Faith meant. They did not go around campaigning for their positions in office like they do today. Sure they may have campaigned in some way, but they did not use the Church or the Christian people as a target in order to win there seat in office, like they do today.

If we take those same 52 founding father and ask them to vote in this day and age, with the kind-of Faith that the history books say that they had in our Lord, I really don't believe that any of them would have anything to do with it. Simply because they believed in the scripture and the scripture speaks of the end times, and politics is definitely a part of the end times, and they will not want no part of it.

Just my thoughts.

mcgyver
Jul 15th 2008, 04:26 PM
If we take those same 52 founding father and ask them to vote in this day and age, with the kind-of Faith that the history books say that they had in our Lord, I really don't believe that any of them would have anything to do with it. Simply because they believed in the scripture and the scripture speaks of the end times, and politics is definitely a part of the end times, and they will not want no part of it.

Just my thoughts.

I understand what you're saying, but I must lovingly disagree...I think that they would be rolling their sleeves up to the elbows and working diligently to reclaim what has been lost.

Alexis de Tocqueville in the 1830s toured the United States and wrote a book called "On Democracy in America" (that I would highly recommend BTW). There is a quote that struck me in particular, he wrote:

"I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her commodious harbors and her ample rivers and it was not there. In her fertile fields and boundless forests and it was not there. In her public school system and her institutions of higher learning and it was not there. In her democratic Congress and matchless Constitution and it was not there. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard their pulpits flaming with righteousness did I understand where the true greatness and genius of America really lies." (emphasis mine)

Then he said something very profound:

"America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good America will cease to be great."

As I ponder this passage, I see within it the application of several Scriptural principles:

1. I think that we can agree that when Our Lord returns, He expects to find us laboring for the Kingdom of God.

2. We are to be lights in the darkness...Christ Himself told us that no one lights a candle and then places it under a basket, but rather sets it up where it can light the whole house.

As I see it (and once again JMO), when we withdraw from the public arena in the matter of politics/political action, we are forfeiting a great God given opportunity to work for the advancement of His Kingdom...and really, in the annals of history our form of government is unique in that Christians CAN be openly involved in the political process at all levels.

Secondly, if we are not going to be the ones to bring the Light of Christ to the halls of Congress...who will?

One of the courses in the service has this motto: "The Greatest Failure is the Failure to Try."

Now whether it is too late to effect change....Only God knows, but I think we need to try!

BCF
Jul 15th 2008, 06:33 PM
Although I do agree with you to some extent, I still must respectfully hold my position on this whole voting thing. I just believe in my heart that it is nothing but a joke, and I mean that in a LOVING WAY.....

I understand your position being active in the military and have nothing but respect for you, and pray for all those who are in the military defending our country and the freedom that our founding fathers fought and died for. But in the same token my friend I must also say that it is not you or the military or the Government who keeps my family or for that matter anyones family safe. It is God and only God who keeps us safe and free. Like I wrote before, God controls Satan and what he does, but God does not control us and what we do. That we do by choice. I believe that God gives Satan the OK to do things in this world so that God can somehow turn it into his Glory. If God would give the OK to Satan to allow some country to sent a nuclear bomb into the US, there would be nothing that we could do about it until it had already happened, and by then it would be to late. Take for instance 9/11. God allowed Satan to fly those two planes into those twin towers and kill all those people. Did we stop it? No. Did we have time to stop it? No. Did the Government have time to put our military into action with missiles or planes of our own to stop them? Once again No. So you see my friend, it really makes no difference as to what we do in the voting both.

The Bible tells me that their is going to be someone who is going to be a world leader. Who that world leader is I have no clue nor do I care. I just know it is going to happen because my history book (THE BIBLE) tells me so. Now in order to have a world leader their needs to be a vote. That vote will come from the Government that people put into office across the world, at one of their world meetings that they have. Whoever would be in charge of our Government at that time will cast his or her vote. I don't want to be a part of anyone who votes for a world leader. Because when that day comes we all know who that world leader represents.

Now, as far as bringing the Light of Christ into congress to make a difference in this world. We would have a better percentage of making a difference in this world if we bought air time on TV or having our own web site like this one where millions of people can see or visit on a daily basis, then we would voting someone into office. At least everyone would be getting fed the word of God every single day and not getting cheated on a daily basis. Instead of maybe reading about something their congress or Government is doing from the news paper or hearing it on the news, and every once in a while on the TV. And most of the time it has nothing to do with God anyway.

No, I'm not bitter at the Government for anything. I'm just a man who believes very strongly in his Faith, and I'm not afraid to let anyone know it.

I stand up for NO ONE but MY LORD JESUS!!!

God Bless

Dave

mcgyver
Jul 15th 2008, 06:41 PM
:hug: "Even so, come Lord Jesus"

BCF
Jul 15th 2008, 06:54 PM
:hug: "Even so, come Lord Jesus"


:)A-men, and please come quickly. We need you:)

Partaker of Christ
Jul 15th 2008, 07:00 PM
I understand what you're saying, but I must lovingly disagree...I think that they would be rolling their sleeves up to the elbows and working diligently to reclaim what has been lost.

Alexis de Tocqueville in the 1830s toured the United States and wrote a book called "On Democracy in America" (that I would highly recommend BTW). There is a quote that struck me in particular, he wrote:

"I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her commodious harbors and her ample rivers and it was not there. In her fertile fields and boundless forests and it was not there. In her public school system and her institutions of higher learning and it was not there. In her democratic Congress and matchless Constitution and it was not there. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard their pulpits flaming with righteousness did I understand where the true greatness and genius of America really lies." (emphasis mine)

Then he said something very profound:

"America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good America will cease to be great."

As I ponder this passage, I see within it the application of several Scriptural principles:

1. I think that we can agree that when Our Lord returns, He expects to find us laboring for the Kingdom of God.

2. We are to be lights in the darkness...Christ Himself told us that no one lights a candle and then places it under a basket, but rather sets it up where it can light the whole house.

As I see it (and once again JMO), when we withdraw from the public arena in the matter of politics/political action, we are forfeiting a great God given opportunity to work for the advancement of His Kingdom...and really, in the annals of history our form of government is unique in that Christians CAN be openly involved in the political process at all levels.

Secondly, if we are not going to be the ones to bring the Light of Christ to the halls of Congress...who will?

One of the courses in the service has this motto: "The Greatest Failure is the Failure to Try."

Now whether it is too late to effect change....Only God knows, but I think we need to try!


There have been many great nations who have not been 'so called' good.

America is not 'good', has never been good, and never will be good.

Like any other nation, America is of this world. We are not to be of this world.
We can 'influence' and effect change, without being 'of' the world.

mcgyver
Jul 15th 2008, 07:22 PM
America is not 'good', has never been good, and never will be good.

WOW!!! What a broad stroke of the brush...:lol:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I reckon...:rolleyes:


Like any other nation, America is of this world. We are not to be of this world.
We can 'influence' and effect change, without being 'of' the world.

And your definition of "being of the world?"

Zack702
Jul 15th 2008, 08:14 PM
Now whether it is too late to effect change....Only God knows, but I think we need to try!


How very true!

Does God love kings greater than servants? Nay I say the servants are made kings because of God and the kings are made a servants to prove what kind of king they are.

There are many snares in the world and politics have there share of them. But just because something can be wicked doesn't mean that it will be. Salvation is to all nations of the Earth.

All things can be made good unless they are made completely wicked and people who are called to keep things good should do so with faith in God. Knowing that they themselves are capable of being wicked but God is capable of saving them from it.

Politics are no different. Not voting can be just as bad as voting.
WHY? I'll tell you why...
God loves you.
If not for yourself then for your children.
If not for your children for you neighbors children.

Is it good that we just give up and say God sort us out? Do we even really know the consequences of what we ask when we say that?

chal
Jul 15th 2008, 09:05 PM
I don't think that any Christians are opposed to effecting change, it just that many differer on how we are to go about it.

WELL
Jul 15th 2008, 11:13 PM
I'm not so sure that God is in control of this world as we all think he is.

I mean would God want two airplanes two fly into two buildings and kill millions of people? Would God let all those children in the world who are starving go without food? Would God let all those babies be killed for no reason? Would God let all the children who are being raped and molested by there family members and non family members be wounded for life like they are? And the list goes on and on and on.

I take you to a scripture that is very seldom thought about now a days in Matthew 4, where our Lord Jesus was tempted by devil for the third time. Here starting with verse 8 and ending in verse 11 we read these words.

8. Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9. And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11.Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

It would seem to me that if God was in control of this world as we say and think that he was, there would have been no reason for Satan to tempt our Lord Jesus (who was God) with the offer of giving him control over the whole world now would it.

Now don't get me wrong, I believe that God has the power over Satan and can control Satan and what Satan does. We have proof of that in Job. But I don't believe that God controls us, and I'm not too sure about this world. That is why I have nothing to do with voting, government, or politics, no matter how they want to dress it up.

Thanks for posting this. I think there are many who agree with you.
Happily I can't agree with everything you said;
1]God is always in full control, ALL THE TIME!
2]Satan is a LIER, and WILL always be!
Notice in the portion quoted ;all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9. And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Jesus never argued with the lier, as what's the use?
He just said; Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

A lesson to learn, take an example from Jesus, never argue with the devil!

WELL
Jul 15th 2008, 11:44 PM
[quote=BCF;1710850]I'm not so sure that God is in control of this world as we all think he is.

I mean would God want two airplanes two fly into two buildings and kill millions of people? Would God let all those children in the world who are starving go without food? Would God let all those babies be killed for no reason? Would God let all the children who are being raped and molested by there family members and non family members be wounded for life like they are? And the list goes on and on and on.



Another important point regarding the above post of God not being in full control; Mt 28:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Jesus was not lying when He said this.

Also, we will know the truth one day, but the U.S.A government could have known about the up and coming events before 9/11 and chose to let it happen, to create a spirit of nationalism.

As someone in this thread has said, there is no good politican, not even one.
Revelation 17

1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

dan
Jul 16th 2008, 03:10 AM
2 Tim 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

And many others say the same.
The GREATEST leader of ALL time,JESUS did not become a politican!
So why should we?
George Bush may be a Christian, but he is certianly decieved!

...But I thought that we were to love our neighbor?

It appears that you seek no responsibility for the world in which you live. So, how can you love your neighbor?
Will you lay down your life for the Brethren?
If you vote you show love for your neighbor by the support of the betterment of all.

No man is more deceived than Barack Obama IMO.

chal
Jul 16th 2008, 07:04 AM
...But I thought that we were to love our neighbor?

It appears that you seek no responsibility for the world in which you live. So, how can you love your neighbor?
Will you lay down your life for the Brethren?
If you vote you show love for your neighbor by the support of the betterment of all.

No man is more deceived than Barack Obama IMO.

Have you ever considered why politicians need huge campaign funds? It's because the money buys them votes, not because your so called "choice," at the polls carries any weight. You can love your neighbor by treating him as you would like to be treated. It's that simple.

IMO, implying that love has anything to do with voting is quite a stretch. The great commission is not to "go forth and vote!"

RabbiKnife
Jul 16th 2008, 01:17 PM
You guys are too funny!!!!

WELL
Jul 16th 2008, 07:56 PM
...But I thought that we were to love our neighbor?

It appears that you seek no responsibility for the world in which you live. So, how can you love your neighbor?
Will you lay down your life for the Brethren?
If you vote you show love for your neighbor by the support of the betterment of all.

No man is more deceived than Barack Obama IMO.

Not so sure you understand.
There is the best way of loving your neighbor, and that's by preaching the gospel to her/him, and secondly to love them in accordance to God's word, which has little to do with voting.

I'm sorry, I know too little of Barack to comment if He is deceived or not, but at least he is calling troops out Iraq, which Bush is doing the opposite,
encouraging others to kill and maim guilty and innocent folk where ever they choose.

Zack702
Jul 16th 2008, 08:40 PM
And would you lay the blood of our enemies on our leader as well?
Would you lay there blood on the soldiers who fight for us while we sit at our computers wasting away?
If you turn your cheek to men ready to cut your head off. Then maybe you can find the strength to turn your cheek to the men ready to save you from that end.

WELL
Jul 16th 2008, 08:53 PM
And would you lay the blood of our enemies on our leader as well?
Would you lay there blood on the soldiers who fight for us while we sit at our computers wasting away?
If you turn your cheek to men ready to cut your head off. Then maybe you can find the strength to turn your cheek to the men ready to save you from that end.

Not sure that's what this thread is about, but I'm not God, and don't know all the answers, so these are merely my opinions.

In some way, the way that many of the leaders of the U.S.A. and the U.K. has behaved, they have made enemies for them selves.

Those soldiers out there, are not there for me, not a chance. I've been in the military, I've been a number for a government that doesn't care at all, and I believe those soldiers out there have been deceived into thinking they're helping someone else, by killing others. They are only helping Babylon, no matter which side they fight for.

Only God can save us in the end, not some silly little army with pea shooters,( have you thought of the way God sees it?)

Zack702
Jul 16th 2008, 09:21 PM
Yea and I know your right that only God saves us in the end but I'm talking about right here right now.
I have thought long and hard about the bible. And I can tell you that the men of war in the bible were no murderers they were shepards of there flock. They know how to keep there flock and when a lion comes and eats part of the flock that shepard hunts down the lion.

Now spiritualy speaking these things are of no value to us we are to turn our cheek and to agree with our adversaries. But enough is enough.

There are men who still have the call of war and there is a reason for it. This is the world and unless we want to be consumed with the wicked we have to fight one way or another. Yea there are men who are willing to die young so others can grow old. I assure you there goal is not to kill and maim but ultimately it is peace. They might fail along the way and many mock them and say "we told you so" but what did they do to help? If then they spat at there leader what did they do except put snares in there path?

I can understand how many feel about corruption in government and I know it is so. But there are greater purposes to the things in this world than we know. Yea it is so very hard to think about all the wounded and even more the dead because of our current war and I do agree it is time to end it but I am just saying we should do so with joy and not a bitter end.

WELL
Jul 16th 2008, 09:55 PM
Yea, but I guess this is Christians entering politics in a sense, going to war armed with physical weapons, but we are told quite clearly;
2 Cor 10:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
I'd emphasize "NOT"!

Zack702
Jul 17th 2008, 01:16 AM
Yea, but I guess this is Christians entering politics in a sense, going to war armed with physical weapons, but we are told quite clearly;
2 Cor 10:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
I'd emphasize "NOT"!

Nay not Christians. Men of war.
I hope they are saved from there calamity.

I have been rude to you and I am sorry I carry this to far. I can see how my point of view is rude so I apologize.

But let me ask on the point of politics.
Should we tell ourselves that because we are Christians we should not enter politics?
And in effect hand over all that we have to wicked people? Even our trust?

chal
Jul 17th 2008, 08:10 AM
Yea, but I guess this is Christians entering politics in a sense, going to war armed with physical weapons, but we are told quite clearly;
2 Cor 10:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
I'd emphasize "NOT"!

chal> In regards to the post I quoted;

carnal: 4559 sarkikos sar-kee-kos'
from 4561; pertaining to flesh, i.e. (by extension) bodily, temporal,
or (by implication) animal, unregenerate:--carnal, fleshly.
see GREEK for 4561

Whether fighting in a war is "carnal," or not depends on the reason. If a soldier is fighting to protect someone else (home, family, country, but not self) and sacrificing his (or her) life for the sake of others, it can hardly be said to be carnal. To sacrifice oneself for others, whether it be by risking your "life & limb," i.e., physical body, or sacrificing your time and focus through dedication to a cause is not a carnal concept, as it's focus is not merely on the physical or the self.

In regards to the topic in general;

On the issue of voting, if someone really believes that their vote is helping someone, then they should by all means vote, but they should not criticize others who believe they are serving others by not voting. Contrary to the argument that voting changes things, is the fact that the voting process has been on more than one occasion found to be lacking in honesty, which was due to a carnal (self serving) reason.

Before we accuse one side or the other of being carnal, we must consider the point of perspective.

Zack702
Jul 17th 2008, 03:57 PM
chal>
To sacrifice oneself for others, whether it be by risking your "life & limb," i.e., physical body, or sacrificing your time and focus through dedication to a cause is not a carnal concept, as it's focus is not merely on the physical or the self.
Contrary to the argument that voting changes things, is the fact that the voting process has been on more than one occasion found to be lacking in honesty, which was due to a carnal (self serving) reason.


I should shut up now but my thoughts are filled with words. I know that killing is wrong I know that war is ugly. The same is with politics and even almost everything we do. Our perspective is of humans.

Such as television. If you think that government is bad or war is bad take a deep look at the television that we watch. I hear people saying that the internet is the devil. But when I watch television or read the news paper I am given over to strange ideas and thoughts that are false and provoke sin.

I just want to make clear that I respect everyones ways for I know we are all called in our hearts to do things and each one of us is unique. But think deeply on these things. Think about the real influences we place on future generations.

For example terrorists. Who do we think trained them to want this ? Who do we think brainwashed them into suicidal attacks? Who causes them to want to kidnap and execute people?
I'll tell you who it is there government and there government was so far corrupt because of the lack of good that they use even God against there young to make them slaves to there wars.

It's not God that calls us to war with guns but it is our willingness to die to defend something (and in the USA we usually focus on freedom from corruption). We shouldn't use God as our calling to fight wars but rather our willingness to die for freedom.

We know that path that Jesus Christ took we know it is not to fight with guns nor to kill but to give our lives over to spreading the words of light.

But when men of war see many people are murdered because of corruption thats when the men of war react. Likewise when people see corruption in any government thats when they should react. Should we shake our fist at them? Should we give them a evil eye?

I think the easiest thing we can do that is good is to pray about it.
And the harder thing to do is to actually get involved.

WELL
Jul 17th 2008, 06:32 PM
Nay not Christians. Men of war.
I hope they are saved from there calamity.

I have been rude to you and I am sorry I carry this to far. I can see how my point of view is rude so I apologize.

But let me ask on the point of politics.
Should we tell ourselves that because we are Christians we should not enter politics?
And in effect hand over all that we have to wicked people? Even our trust?

Brother, please be assured of my love and no offence what so ever! I recieve your appology.

We are called to love as Christians, and I trust this is enough for anyone reading this thread.

The scripture that many use to support going to war is Rom 13, but they fail to read what Jesus said about loving our enemies, and to pay attention to what God says before the portion they like to quote in Rom 13, which I will now paste.

I choose to argue no longer with anyone on this subject, all I will do is quote scripture, and let God speak for himself. We all stand before God, and if you believe that injuring someone physicaly and still say you love them, then more than likely you are decieved(let alone those woman and children who get injured in the cross fire.)

Rom 12:
14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Rom 13:
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Zack702
Jul 17th 2008, 06:57 PM
Brother, please be assured of my love and no offence what so ever! I recieve your appology.

We are called to love as Christians, and I trust this is enough for anyone reading this thread.


Well I thank you for these words.

And on the scriptures you mentioned I know how true they are and what a great example. And as much as lieth in me I do live peaceably with all men.

But when I see things that are to much for me and I hear things that cause my brain to boil. And that is when the call of war begins to sound. Not from hate of men but from hate of corruption. Yea I know it is true that for a Christian the call of war is not with guns nor harsh words but with sacrifice and faith. And to that I am glad you accept my apology.

WELL
Jul 17th 2008, 11:19 PM
Well I thank you for these words.

And on the scriptures you mentioned I know how true they are and what a great example. And as much as lieth in me I do live peaceably with all men.

But when I see things that are to much for me and I hear things that cause my brain to boil. And that is when the call of war begins to sound. Not from hate of men but from hate of corruption. Yea I know it is true that for a Christian the call of war is not with guns nor harsh words but with sacrifice and faith. And to that I am glad you accept my apology.

May we all continue to seek peace and persue it. Jn 1:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

There is no life outside of Him!

1 Jn 2:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

May we continue to walk as He walked.

BCF
Jul 18th 2008, 12:30 AM
Hi WELL, nice to talk to you. Sorry that it has taken me so long to get back to you with this reply, but my wife and I have horses and I have been tied up the last few days taking care of them, and it has been very late till I had gotten in, and all I wanted to do at that time was go to bed.

Anyways, yes, I agree with you on what you say here,


And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Jesus was not lying when He said this.


Your right, Jesus was not lying when he said this. Because he has been given, and does have all power over heaven and earth. I mean after all we are talking about God here who has power over everything.

But my friend I never said that God did not have power over this world. I said that I was not so sure if he has control over this world. I think my last paragraph summed that up pretty well. There is a big difference between power and control my friend. There not the same thing.


Now don't get me wrong, I believe that God has the power over Satan and can control Satan and what Satan does. We have proof of that in Job. But I don't believe that God controls us, and I'm not too sure about this world. That is why I have nothing to do with voting, government, or politics, no matter how they want to dress it up.

dan
Jul 18th 2008, 06:21 AM
...Good works are without political involvement, IMO.

1TIM 5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

"Relief of the afflicted", would be an appropriate heading for voting, I'd say.

WELL
Jul 18th 2008, 04:28 PM
Hi WELL, nice to talk to you. Sorry that it has taken me so long to get back to you with this reply, but my wife and I have horses and I have been tied up the last few days taking care of them, and it has been very late till I had gotten in, and all I wanted to do at that time was go to bed.

Anyways, yes, I agree with you on what you say here,



Your right, Jesus was not lying when he said this. Because he has been given, and does have all power over heaven and earth. I mean after all we are talking about God here who has power over everything.

But my friend I never said that God did not have power over this world. I said that I was not so sure if he has control over this world. I think my last paragraph summed that up pretty well. There is a big difference between power and control my friend. There not the same thing.

So maybe we agree after all. I also used to look after horses, what a blessing!
"I said that I was not so sure if he has control over this world."
I believe God has complete control over all all the time, not just the world, but the universe.

Maybe I don't understand all you are saying.

A verse to ponder on: Mt 10:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
It's interesting to see this in other translations too.

all things were created by him, and for him: Col 1:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16)

fewarechosen
Jul 18th 2008, 04:54 PM
someone can do good in whatever they do, so i dont say hey dont get into politics or dont vote.

for me personally i feel politics is to corrupt to even bother but i can see how someone could be led by god to vote a certain way or such so i dont discount it.

as far as getting way into politics as in running for office or such, i always use christ as my example - he didnt bother doing such things because he was about his fathers works and not earthly things.

WELL
Jul 21st 2008, 04:24 AM
Is Bush right in doing what he's doing as a "Christain"?
Does Obama call himself a "Christain"?

dan
Jul 22nd 2008, 07:46 AM
Is Bush right in doing what he's doing as a "Christain"?
Does Obama call himself a "Christain"?

...Yes and yes.